Antifa Beating Gives Ammunition to the Right

Comments

2

Thank you Katie. Now that the dust is settling we can see what actually happened. Violence is never an answer.

3

Just remember: No matter how bad things get, no matter how little hope there seems to be, at least you are not as stupid as the guy who made the first comment.

4

Here we go.

I guess Elizabeth Hokoana gave "ammunition" to the Left when she shot Josh Dukes point blank in the guts on Red Square in 2017. I don't remember the Left doing much with that ammunition, though. Dukes won't even participate in the trial.

5

The far left and the far right are equally evil.

6

generally speaking, violent groups in masks should be disowned and shunned regardless of political affiliation.

7

“Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete and regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties.”

...

“Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views political violence, war and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation.”

My dad had me watch “Where do Babies Come From” when I was in kindergarten. I found that shit fascinating.

Turns out the States were once German/English, but once the wars started up all of the German-language papers were shut down.

You know, kids, there are millions and millions of Americans who engaged in sports, wrestling, and the martial arts, and this is not how they behave.

Heroism this is not.

8

Sue Bird, if you're Listening, I too have taken a shine
to the brightest Mega Star in American Sports -- your GF.

So, just to let you know, you now have some Competition.
For the sake of the Country, let's keep it Friendly, shall we?
Oh and, Fuck Trumpf.
[not literally]

" Trump made false claims "
Since ALL trumpfy's utterances, claims, statements of fact, and pretty much EVERY noise emanating from his weirdly-shaped pie-Hole are, by definition, false, the above phrase is redundant.
Let us make this highly-illegitimate "president" the same.

9

@8: Sue Bird ain't losing any sleep over your competition.

@6: Good point.

10

@8 -- sorry -- wrong article.

11

This take is not wrong but there is no shortage of outrage fodder on the right. If it’s not andy ngo getting assaulted by anarchists it’s hillary clinton trafficking kids out of the basement of a pizza joint. These people will believe anything their talking heads shout at them no matter how disconnected from reality it might be.

Antifa don’t care that their actions might affect an election because they are anarchists. There is no reasoning with them. The only solution here is for Portland pd to figure out how to do their fucking jobs because someone is going to get killed.

12

@9 -- keep a pretty good Eye on her, do ya?

'Hoover' -- dam or vacuum?

13

That's funny: once upon a time, the US mobilized a whole lotta folx to punch Nazis. But hey, keep on keeping on with that false equivalence thing, mmmkay?

14

For months the far-right has been posting video footage of violent confrontations in the street where it was they who were applying the beat-down. Just surf Live Leak some time.
Study the history of the labor movement in this country.
The violence would all go one way at first. It wasn't until workers started to fight back and instill an element of fear into their opponents that they gained traction.
Steel workers, auto workers, Teamsters... all the effective unions dabbled in the dark side.
Or the history of civil rights-
Everyone wants to remember MLK, but everyone forgets SNCC.
Everyone wants to remember the NAACP role and airbrush the Black Panthers.
So all these hosannas about the virtues of non-violence constitute a lovely belief system but they are more aspirational than practical.
In the real world you still need some muscle or you surrender the streets to the Proud Boys.

15

So which is more -fa, antifa or ...fa? ("depends on which has their brownshirts in the laundry")

16

@14: Of course, your comparision are meaningless since MLK, the Unions, and the NAACP were not looking to fight, but were actually trying to further a political goal and trying to avoid violence

The only goal of the trust fund supported Antifa is starting fights in locales where liberals already hold almost all of the power so they can LARP as heroes, pretend to be oppressed, and get likes on Instagram.

This is why it is easy to find pictures of Antifa members preparing weapons, arming themselves, and gathering projectiles to throw at people, and when MLK marched, he was unarmed, unmasked, and not trying to start fights for fun and attention.

Pretty big difference, if you ask me.

17

@14 Eh, well they are 'fighting back' in Portland. When they go into East Bumfuck Alabami to fight back let me know.

18

Typical Right-Wing tactic: systematically and continually push the opposition up to the brink - then cry "foul!" when they step one toe-length across whatever arbitrary line they've drawn.

20

@14: The proud boys are an assortment of a couple of dozen demented bloviating jerks - we're not seeing KKK marches on the national mall by the hundreds in their robes.

A reasonable assessment of the situation with a historical perspective is better.

21

far-right "activists" have killed hundreds of people in america. leftists have killed zero. taking the high road and rolling over for the right might feel good if you're insulated from those attacks, but when your community is threatened and the police explicitly support the attackers, your community has a right to punch back. don't accept this hectoring moralizing that tells you that voting is your only agency - especially after last week's supreme court support of hyper-partisan gerrymandering. of course centrists would rather your resistance consists only of strongly worded tweets and permitted marches, with your liberal vote safely sequestered in a democratic enclave.

22

<----- @14's point

o <------@16's head

23

21 what has antifa accomplished?

What are the goals of antifa?

What will become of antifa once said goals have been accomplished?

Nothing? Nothing? Nothing?

24

We live in a country with 320 million people and everyone is concerned about one guy getting punched one time and having a milkshake dumped on him? Fucking really? I cant get mad about this. A drunk driver will kill someone in Oregon this week but nobody will give a shit because it doesn't scare the senior citizens watching Fox news. We have real problems, no time for this shit.

25

You're a good German, Katie. Just like all the "sensible" German liberals in 1932. That didn't work out so well for them, did it?

26

@24 - I agree. Let's triage our outrage.

27

@23 - "antifa" is a localized, self-organized form of community defense whose only "goal" is to prevent right wing thugs from terrorizing us. they are front-line physical defense for targeted groups. if "antifa's goals" are accomplished, then there will be no right wing attacks and it will have no reason to exist. it's not like antifa organized these marches - they showed up in response to the Proud Boy / Patriot Prayer planned provocation. but you know this and are making bad faith arguments to muddy the waters.

28

No, I asked because I didn’t know. Never looked you up. I know the type, though.

You’re fighting “fascism” with fascism, and haven’t defended shit.

What percentage of you guys will turn once you’re paying taxes on your parent’s money, do you think?

30

Back in the day the KKK did the Democrat Party's wet work.
These clowns are the current version;
we would say Antifa=Brownshirts but we don't know if the Brownshirts were actually as pathetic and cowardly as these morons, probably were.

31

@27 If Antifa doesn't show up to counter protest would there be any violence?

32

@31 yes, the Proud Boys have beaten up lots of people unprovoked in Portland, New York and elsewhere.

@28 you think antifa are rich kids? you must not be from around here. And you think punching someone who wants you dead is equivalent to fascism?

@29 i don't see any right wing news outlets being suppressed. In fact, here we have the Stranger rushing to the defense of an editor of Quillette, a blantantly racist and violent propaganda outfit with no journalistic integrity.

33

This new "someoneinseattle" guy is hysterical. It's like the edgy anarchy kid from middle school never bothered to grow out of the phase like everyone else did once they gained an ounce of self-awareness.

34

@33 and you are a wise old man, blessing us with your judgements

35

Tacoma from 2-5, back in the area at 14, in the Seattle area for the past fifteen years, in the city for over twelve.

You’re a mob. A directionless, pointless, violent mob.

One of the benefits of what Seattle has become is that there are fewer of you.

Watch Trump win again, champ.

36

I'm so pleased to see that little Fascist punk Andy Ngo got the smack-down he so richly deserves. If I had the time and money, I'd buy an ice-cream truck, and pass out free soy milkshakes to all the great AntiFA Super Saiyans at such gatherings. I applaud their work deplatforming the Fascist Right, and defending our communities. When the police turn a blind eye to violent Fascists, and are often members of such groups themselves, such aggressive defense tactics are necessary, if we are to preserve the Republic.

37

@34: No, I am just laughing at you.

@36: Ok, "Antifa Super Saiyans" is hysterical, but the new Seattle guy still has you beat. Why do you keep capitalizing "fascist?"

38

@32: "And you think punching someone who wants you dead is equivalent to fascism?"

Those who think they can read someone else's thoughts and thereby justifies their assault don't fare well and typically land up in jail or get restraining orders against them.

39

@35 We should just be quiet and let the PB/PP militia beat us up or else Trump wins. Got it.

40

@32 That is just a straight up lie.

@33 This guy is making GermanSausage look like an intellectual.

41

@38 are you reading my thoughts right now? woah!

42

@39 what's a lie? that proud boys beat people up?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/two-proud-boys-members-plead-guilty-new-york-city-brawl-n978481

https://www.thedailybeast.com/two-star-proud-boys-donovon-flippo-and-tusitala-tiny-toese-hit-with-felony-assault-charges-for-portland-attack

44

@31 Yeah, I’m sure the vandalism of the Lumberyard, The Crescent and the AIDS Memorial Walkway were just random incidents and in no way harbingers of violence.

45

proud boy adjacent shit head gets knocked after intentionally provoking people for years: giving ammunition to the right

oregon state senators openly threatening murder of police and aligning with millitia groups: just a joke!

fuck off katie

47

Yes it was stupid for them to beat him up.

But I don't get why we are ignoring the context that these assholes keep busing into Portland and harassing people, including beating people up, and they still have friendly relations with the police. They come to Portland looking for a fight.

I'm just really sick of right wingers who claim they are victims when they provoke situations. Like Zimmerman chasing down Trayvon and then claiming self-defense when Trayvon beats him up. These assholes look for fights and then pretend they are victims when they find it.

Antifa is not going to Trump rallies looking for people to fight. They aren't busing east of the Cascades and confronting militias.

Also I'm so fucking sick to death of this idea that if you just ignore these people, they will go away.

Here's some context from your own fucking publication:
https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/10/15/33890587/joey-gibson-encouraged-proud-boy-violence-in-portland-they-are-going-to-feel-the-pain
and more
https://www.thedailybeast.com/armed-trump-supporters-march-on-portland-beating-up-opponents-and-calling-for-hillary-clintons-arrest

Just a few months back, there was this:
https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2019/apr/24/pbb-patriot-prayer-logs/

And just weeks ago, there was this:
https://splinternews.com/two-proud-boys-charged-with-felonies-for-portland-attac-1833249492

Oh and remember when they threatened the Portland mayor:
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2019/01/25/proud-boy-threatens-portland-mayor-im-coming-you

I mean, I know the news cycle moves fast, but let's not present things without context.

Yes Antifa beat up a journalist. It was stupid and they shouldn't have done it. But these assholes have been coming into Portland to cause trouble for YEARS now- threatening everyone, breaking laws, harassing and assaulting people, etc. If anything, Antifa has shown amazing restraint. Imagine if libs like Katie could get even half as indignant over the roaming Nazis as she does over the people trying to stop them.

48

I don't condone any violence that is not a direct response to violence (I am not going to judge a punch thrown in defense of a punch). But that is not the point I want to make. It is about these two lines:

He's something of a thorn in the far left's side: a man who reports on the left—but never the right—behaving badly.

...but in the long run, all they did was hurt their own cause.

I agree with Herzog that the cause was hurt, but it is also because of the hypocrisy of the media of which Ngo and Herzog are a part. Both of them latch on to bad action by people associated with the left and yet do not put that same lens on the same types of actions by the right.

Katie Herzog, you spend so much time claiming the moral high ground of "reasonableness" while shilling false equivalencies, I would swear to god you are actually a straight white guy.

49

@46, don't forget how the proud boys had a cache of weapons on the roof of a parking garage during their own "free speech demonstrations," were found out by police and...... nothing happened to them?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/portland-oregon-cops-knew-fascists-had-weapons-cache_n_5bc5e853e4b0d38b5871be1b

https://www.wweek.com/news/city/2018/10/16/portland-police-found-right-wing-protesters-with-a-cache-of-long-guns-atop-a-parking-garage-why-didnt-the-mayor-know/

50

Also I recommend that any lib who wants to honestly engage with this issue (and by the looks of this article, it does not appear Katie does) should actually interview some Antifa people rather than writing incorrect bullshit about how they don't do anything else. Antifa is decentralized, so there are people involved who are just obnoxious kids looking for a fight and looking to cosplay at revolution- picture violent young football fans in Europe, looking for a street fight. But others are just politically engaged lefties, and it's stupid to pretend they aren't likewise doing other things like trying to shut down ICE concentration camps and roundups, fighting police brutality, advocacy/supplies for homeless, etc. Even a quick glance at rose city antifa's twitter account could show you what else they are up to. As for voter registration, I expect some people are involved in that as well, but generally speaking anarchists aren't always into electoral politics- you can disagree, but it's an interesting conversation to bother with why. But lazier just to assume liberalism is the only correct path without even bothering to learn about anything else.

51

^ that should have been @47, oops!

52

@37 I do it to piss Nazi/Klan apologists like you off.

53

@52: I suggest you put on sunglasses before the next time you look in the mirror.

54

so it seems like katie herzog is sort of our local bari weiss

54

I know it's hard out there for a newspaper these days, but The Stranger should be ashamed to be publishing dreck like this — actual fascist-sympathizing propaganda — for the sake of "engagment" stats. I feel kind of dirty for having clicked on it. Gross!

57

Just here to agree with EmmaLiz and john t. Finding out what Antifa is and does would be a start.

58

@55
Amen.

59

Remember that kid in high school who always had to show everyone his nunchucks? He's a political movement now.

60

@53 Ah yes, another of our resident Trump Nazis. You really sound like you need a coconut milkshake yourself.

61

@55,

"...the commenter hasn't reached adulthood yet. Grow up. Get a job. Join polite society."

Aren't you on like your 3rd or 4th profile here after getting repeatedly banned for posting inflammatory content?

63

The far left and the far right should both just fuck off. Worthless... all of them.

A comment section full of “whataboutism”... shocking.

Those that claim moral authority and then act as immoral as their enemies hold no real authority at all.

64

@60: You really sound violent, obviously.

65

@54, nothing in The Stranger should surprise you. Makes me long for the journalistic standards of The Weekly World News.

66

Welcome to Planet Stranger, where misgendering someone an act of violence but when a gay Asian journalist gets the crap beat out of him it’s ok because nazis and stuff.

67

Ban masks at rallies and marches, and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law everyone who causes mayhem during them. This shouldn't be controversial or complicated

68

Idk how you guys are missing the point here. If no one counter protests a patriot prayer protest/rally then nothing happens. Patriot Prayer isnt blocking roads or smashing windows.

69

Also the Seattle Antifa group is not nearly as large or psycho as the Portland group so when Patriot Prayer has a rally in Seattle nothing really happens.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/largely-peaceful-dueling-rallies-at-seattle-city-hall-marked-by-lots-of-yelling-3-arrests/

70

Everyone is a fucking pacifist when they never have to fight. Everyone is Mr. Passive Resistance while supporting the U.S. military. At least try to take your heads out of your namaste asses.

71

@67: it is complicated, sorry. no one gets prosecuted to the "fullest extent", or we'd have the highest per-capita prison population on earth. ok, well, unless you're black.

72

Honestly, where does this fake pacifism come from? This whole notion that the US isn't a violent society with a long history of violence from both the powerful and the weak? I'm really at a loss about how liberals are so convinced they're pacifists and humanitarians while supporting the policies of this government and the freedom of the far right to do pretty much whatever they want. If you ever supported an Americans war in the last 20 years you can stfu about nonviolence.

73

I'm also laughing my ass off that I predicted this would be Herzog's article. Hate crime after hate crime happens, but when a conservative gets beat up Herzog's on the case to tell us about how the left is the equivalent of the right because FREE SPEECH AND STUFF.

74

Still here trying to wrap my head around punching journalists because men armed to the teeth, for media coups and recruitment windfalls.

Knives and gunfights, I thought.

76

Also, the right doesn't need any ammunition. It's like when dumb fucking liberals freak out because the progressive Dems are going to be easy for Trump to demonize as "socialists" and "Marxists," seemingly unaware of the fact that the right will call them "socialists and Marxists" anyway, just like how they called Obama a Marxist. When you live in a world of make believe it doesn't matter what the facts are. So who gives a fuck about the right's characterization, especially since the Democrats have nothing to do with antifa and no one but complete fucking idiots think they do. The "left" is effectively meaningless in our society, and to the right anything left of Mussolini is radical these days.

77

@75,

It's at least your second. Your muffy profile no longer exists and throws a 404 error.

78

Antifa wears masks, just like the KKK . Why hide ? If you're so damn proud of this why not show your face? Antifa is the epitome of fascism. They are a fascist group not to mention a terrorist group. Oh just a final note, just because someone disagrees with your political POV does not make them a fascist, it makes them an American who has the freedom to speak their truth, and anyone who tries to silence them are the fascist.

79

@77: Nope - returns 202.

80

I mean 200.

81

Whatever, as long as Antifa doesn't get the next Death in June or Marduk show cancelled I could care less.

82

@80,

What's the difference? I recall his losing access not long after repeatedly posting some pretty offensive shit. Pretty sure the profile was banned as a result.

83

Another fash sympathizing article from Katie Herzog. Surprise surprise. Andy Ngo doxxed a victim of the right wing, spreads phrenology and islamaphobia? He didn’t get nearly what he deserves. Antifa is stronger today than last week terf Herzog

84

@52: That is fascinating, but why would you think it would piss anyone off?

85

78 Your false equivalency is hilarious

86

@82: Muffy's profile is up and running, try again.

HTTP Staus codes:
200 = OK
202 = Processing but not completed
404 = Not found

87

@64 I offer you a delicious vegan frozen desert, and you call me violent. You Fascists are great at projecting. See, this is why we can't have anything nice in this country. We on the left try to do something nice, and you right-wing nut-jobs just want to throw it in the trash, and claim you somehow owned the Libs.

88

can someone point me to whatever "reporting" andy ngo has done that qualifies him to be called a "journalist"? cause i sure as shit haven't seen any

89

@87: Your offer is served at a high velocity on the back of my head causing bruising due to its "concrete" chunks. No thank you. Your Godwin's Law superlatives and hyperbole more accurately describes yourself.

90

He's a right wing propagandist. He probably got a lot more clicks on his YouTube channel after this. It's the best thing that's ever happened to his career.

91

Things I’ve learned in my longish life which have carried me far:

Don’t start none, won’t BE none.

And

“By any means necessary.”

92

@86,

I suspect you're perhaps confusing muffy & mellow. They're the same dude, but the former is definitely banned for posting toxic, offensive shit. His now defunct user profile can be found here.

https://www.thestranger.com/users/25395631/muffy

I'm pretty sure he then created a new profile after losing access to this one, that was also banned shortly after his creating it, as he was unable to refrain from posting toxic, offensive shit. It was only upon all of that's happening that he created "mellow," which he now uses for the sole purpose of praising Katie (whom I actually sort of like, FWIW) and calling people "honey." It's really only. a matter of time before this charade breaks down and he gets himself banned yet again.

You ever walk into an auto body repair shop and see a 450 pound dude carrying around a hacksaw who goes by the nickname "Tiny?" Our friend here is "mellow" in a similar light.

93

@50, @57

There are a couple of problems with asking the question "why doesn't The Stranger interview anarchists/antifa for a change?"

One is that anarchists/antifa don't want to be interviewed (or photographed, or filmed). This is in part why they wear masks, and one of the reasons they attack journalists. Ngo is definitely not the only reporter anarchists have thrown stuff at; just google "antifa cameraman" some time.

Anarchists subscribe to maximalist privacy rights-- they believe that their actions are none of your business, even when they're doing things in public that affect other people. Relatedly, there's a pretty strong code of omerta in present-day anarchist/antifa circles. Those who do speak to journalists, even on relatively anodyne subjects sometimes, risk being stigmatized as "snitches."

And there's a broader issue having to do with anarchist ideology. In anarchism, there is no leader, there are no press secretaries, there is no PR department. No anarchist can speak for another anarchist, or on behalf of a group of anarchists. They're all just individuals, so if you talk to one of them, or to many of them, you have only learned something about some individual people; you have learned nothing about the group.

In an odd sort of way, according to its own dogma the only way you can learn anything about contemporary anarchism is by asking non-anarchists about it. You can't even get to it by reading anarchist pamphlets and manifestos, because different anarchists will express different opinions about them. For that matter, the same anarchist might hold different opinions about the same pamphlet, depending on whether the balaclava is on or off, and still be internally ideologically consistent.

And with all that, The Stranger HAS tried to interview anarchists/antifa many times over the years, and the results have been rather less than revealing-- for all the reasons mentioned.

94

Robotslave, I agree that it's pointless and annoying to try to get people to explain entire ideologies, especially when they don't agree with one another. I've tried a few times to understand what the fuck the difference is between a Marxist-Leninist and a Maoist but after a few seconds of listening to someone tell me, I just don't give a fuck. My eyes glaze over and the whole thing sounds like kids at sci fi conventions arguing over the canons of their various fandoms. So I agree with you about the pitfalls of trying to explain anarchism, and if my post led you to believe that was what I am suggesting, then I apologize.

I'm not talking about theory. I'm talking about actual background and tangible goals and immediate strategy in this current situation. There is no context here in this scolding article about how Patriot Prayer and Proud Boys have been busing into Portland to harass and threaten (and yes sometimes beat up) people for years now. Nothing about what they have been trying to achieve nor who they are harming nor how the city has responded nor how the police have failed to deal with it (and in some cases even are compliant). Nor is there anything about how this is linked to a larger right wing movement which is violent and fascistic across the country. Nor how actual 'reporters' like Ngo contribute to this movement. Nor how a lot of these people are making their careers by provoking stuff like this and livestreaming it and then causing confrontations and uploading them to YouTube. Ngo himself is part of this nihlist fascistic-for-clicks world. This is an actual phenomenon and it's dangerous.

If you are going to make the case that Antifa is responding to this movement in a bad way, then you have to examine what they are responding to and why. You see people right here in this thread saying they shouldn't wear masks and you yourself correctly point out that the movement is decentralized and anonymous. Some of this is for self-protection- is Katie aware that these thugs have been threatening the lives of journalists and politicians and activists and have in fact shot and beat up people? Some of it is to prevent targeting by the police, which as has been mentioned above, have been cooperative with these guys and have not taken certain things seriously (like the weapons cache and some of the threats). And some of it is to prevent the sort of personality cult self-aggrandizement that we see on the right- these assholes, including Ngo, make careers by livestreaming this stuff and then ranting about it on YouTube where they have had quite a bit of success with the Peterson and Shapiro type crowds. In short, it's an entire dismissal of the fact that Antifa is playing defense here, not offense.

But what I meant regarding to talking to them about their actual goals and strategies (and surprise, you can talk to people anonymously, you can talk to people in adjacent groups, you can visit their own websites and publications), is that there is nothing here that actually takes seriously the concepts of no platforming and also of the failures of electoral politics in preventing fascism, and you don't have to get in the weeds of what anarchism is to give an overview of that. Plenty of people have done so. If Katie wants to write an opinion piece about why she thinks the group is doing something non-strategic, she should bother to understand their strategy- even if it's to oppose it. And more importantly, though I suppose liberals will never do this, she could bother with the bigger context of the battle they are fighting. She seems to have no awareness at all of the structural problems that are ahead of us and how they are going to play out in a violent antidemocratic country full of prisons and concentration camps. Personally I think a lot of what antifa does (or at least individual members) is just looking for a fight and cosplaying at revolution, but they are at least engaging with the real problems instead of pretending that everything is safe and we can all go back to normal if we'd all just behave like grownups and ignore the nazis. At times, liberals scolding antifa make me think of teenagers complaining about how stupid their parents are. I mean, yes their parents might be doing stupid things, but they are out in the real world and it's hard out there.

95

Yeah Ngo is just an innocent reporter who makes his living photographing leftist protesters to be published along with any other identifying details in the far-right political journal that he works for and if those people some time later get harassed, threatened, and brutalized by right-wing terrorists well, that's out of Andy's hands, okay? He's just a journalist.

96

Antifa are the brownshirts, folks. Shut em down.

97

"why can't we all just get along" - Rodney King

98

People who cover their faces while they beat up others are COWARDS. I don't care what spot you claim on the Left-Right Spectrum. Rich punk offspring of the wealthy predatory class covering their faces while they have tantrums in public just like when they were 6 years old and terrorizing the patrons of the restaurant when their indulgent parents let them run around and bother people. Bah humbug. Get a fucking job, losers. A job other than using your mom's credit card.

99

Here's the problem, though: NONE of the people who sanctimoniously denounce Antifa for its tactics are doing anything at all to fight fascism. None.

It's not possible to fight fascism by debating fascists, for God's sakes. All debating them ever does is legitimize them and they never lose in any exchange where they've been legitimized-such an exchange will always be rigged in the fascists' favor by the political establishment, who STILL harbor the delusion they harbored in Germany in the Twenties-they can use the fascists to wipe out the left and then keep power for themselves after using the fascists against the Left. It didn't work in Germany-it can't work against them now. It's always going to be impossible to beat fascists if you give them a platform. History proves it.

100

I am very pleased to read this. Good that someone on the left is pointing out how this extreme behavior will hurt the left. As we saw the Republicans use Harry Reid's elimination of cloture votes for judicial nominations as justification for eliminating the same procedures for Supreme Court nominations, Antifa's actions will be used to justify possible violent right-wing behavior in the future. We need more people on the left to condone these violent practices.

While we are at it, we also need to stop the practice of denying conservatives their right to assemble and speak in pubic locations. The forcing of restaurants and school campuses from holding these event must stop! This will just provide justification for right extremists to do the same to liberals in the future.

101

14: And funny thing-none of the people who denounce Antifa ever call for the fascists or their allies, the police, to be nonviolent-just as none of those who demanded that the black freedom movement be strictly nonviolent ever, even for a moment, called for the Klan and Southern(or Northern, to be fair) police departments to abstain from violence themselves.

The oppressed MUST be nonviolent, but the oppressors and those, like the Patriot Predators, who are fighting for the chance TO oppress are always allowed to do whatever the hell they want.

102

I've been involved with voter registration-2016 proves that voter registration doesn't stop fascism, though. There's been no time in human history where the tactics you demand opponents of fascism use have ever actually works. Fascism can't be stopped at the ballot box. And it is till hypocrisy that you have never denounced any of the tactics the alt-reich uses.

Finally, it is irrelevant that Andy Ngo is either of Vietnamese origin(many if not most post-1975 Vietnamese immigrants have far-right political sympathies and have aligned themselves with fascist/nationalist movement globally) or gay(Milo proved that a gay man can be just as much of a fascist as anybody else.

I don't think it's great that the man was beaten, but it's a meaningless statement to say that he was "doing his job" when the man's job was to take photographs of antifascists to give to the alt-right, so that the alt-right can assault them later. Remember, the vast majority of the violence is committed by the alt-right. the people you do nothing to try and stop, Katie.

103

That second sentence should read: "There's been no time in human history where the tactics you demand fascism use have ever actually worked".

If the people of Germany had joined the ORIGINAL antifascists, in the streets, in 1919, the fascists-then mislabeled as the "Freikorps" would have been stopped before they could become Nazis, and Stalinism would never have been born.

104

Damn it, that sentence SHOULD read "There's been no time in human history where the tactics you demand OPPONENTS of fascism use have ever actually worked". Dammit Stranger, let us edit our posts already.

105

@99 the center-left is the only pushback we have in this country towards fascism. The progressive left has been largely co-opted, the far left has fully embraced it. And large swaths of the middle-right (that is, rank-n-file GOP voters) are friendly towards state-serving authoritarianism.

WHen people write that antifa tactics are bad, that's fighting facism. That's saying that political violence and nominally allied repressive regimes aren't actually good for us (see: every developing world populist country). Fighting facism least of all is Antifa, they're solidly advancing that agenda.

106

@It's not pushback against fascism to campaign for Biden, for God's sakes.
And the people who attack Antifa aren't offering any valid alternative tactics in the battle against Patriot Prayer.
It can never be antifacist to concede the streets to the alt-right. If Patriot Prayer can do anything it wants in the streets in Portland, if it can intimidate people of color, LGBTQ people and cis-women without challenge-and the fact is that there's no difference between bashing Antifa and not caring about fascism at all it's over and the fascists have won.

The alt-right isn't trivial, and it can't be stopped simply by voting for whoever the Democrats nominate for president. 2016 proved that.

The "center-left"-the ones who are conservative on everything but choice and LGBTQ rights, the issues which are mundanely progressive but can never transform society or liberate anyone if tied to an otherwise conservative program, as the Clintons and Biden do-don't care about stopping the alt-right. You guys are the successors to the German Social Democrats who armed the Freikorps against Rosa Luxemburg and the Sparticists in 1919. You care more about "order" and looking "respectable" than about defeating repression and ending poverty and misery. The Freikorps you guys armed kept those arms after that and became the Nazis.
But your sort didn't care, because "preserving order" is all you care about-even though "order" serves no one but those born privileged.

107

@106 So what there's no "alternative" - ANTIFA has claimed the right to use violence wherever and whenever they wish. Patriot Prayer may support policies you dislike or find dangerous and even hate, but they're not pulling people out of their cars and beating them or attacking journalists. Find me ONE article or a twitter blue check who thinks the Charlotsville killing was justified, then you can tell me that they're they are a bigger threat than the MASKED AND ARMORED PEOPLE IN OUR STREETS WHO HAVE GIVEN THEMSELVES THE RIGHT TO ASSAULT ANYONE FOR ANY REASON. No other group is doing that. They're the extreme outliers and they must not go unchallenged. If Antifa wants to push a "we can punch journalists whenever we want" bill through congress, that's upsetting but still legal; what we cannot accept, 0% accept for any possible reason, is vigilante justice for things that aren't against the law.

That's an immediate, direct problem. If citizens are free to use violence, we aren't safe. You aren't safe. And I mean literal safety, not metaphorical "well this will affect opinion which will effect what's acceptable on the fringe" - this is direct, bullshit action and your eyes are closed. Seriously, tell your grandchildren this, that you thought it was A-OK. But I guess we know, on both sides of the spectrum, the boys are very proud of what they're doing.

108

@106 to put it another way: the nominal purpose of a group like Antifa is to prevent... other groups from engaging in tactics that Antifa is trying to use. They literally are the problem they're trying to fight. 2 Legs Good.