We old pervs deserve a little harmless perving in our old age. While his pervs are very, very, very different than my own, what’s the harm? If you can make someone happy at so little personal cost — indeed, at a bit of a gain — why deny him the pleasure.

I’d suggest the bf check in with him every now and then to confirm that he remains happy with the arrangement. Other than that, why not continue to indulge an old perv?

I wonder if the old boyfriend dumped LW because LW was being rather controlling.

I think LW (not so) secretly wanted to order the new boyfriend around.

If we’re going to get months of reruns at a time, could they come with follow up or something?

That is $50 per week, and since Mr. Taft isn’t reporting that money to Uncle Sam, that is the equivalent of about $4,200 per year in taxable income, plus a clean apartment. That’s a lot to give up.

Hopefully, TAFT realized he could go out and do his own thing for the couple of hours that the gentleman was over cleaning his apartment, and then come back to a clean place.

Reads like a rerun. Can we get the link to the original?

Agree with @1, even though I can understand how it would be odd and annoying to LW at first, but maturity in relationship means being magnanimous. In addition, they should invite the old guy over for Sunday dinner.

Vaguely disagree. New BF is being "forced" to tacitly engage in a sex act he's not comfortable with. Drawing a line on this seems totally reasonable. The non-price of admission?

Pearly whites, whether teeth or toilets, are always a bonus.

As for the questions at hand, the only potential problem I see is prof exposing himself to medical issues by using the tooth brush in the way it was meant to be used, AFTER the toilet bowl cleaning. I hope he's soaking it in a bleach solution or something before sticking it in his mouth.

I have no issues with prof’s age. He’s about 10 years or so older than me and I sure hope I will not only maintain my kinks at that age, but will also be able to find like-minded, cooperative partners of any age. Legal and up.

Cleaning lady? Really? That is some seriously sexist bullshit.

I'd be annoyed by the regular disruption of opening up my home to a stranger that had no benefit to the welfare of my home or relationships, whether it was my landlord or the elder perv, but that's just me.

I think a good compromise is to tell Old Perv he can continue what he's doing, keep his $50, but he has to actually perform the services of an actual house cleaner.

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEW!!! Soz, I know that's mean and petty to say, but I agree with the LW.

If the LW gets equal say in what color towels go in his new bathroom, I think he should also have equal say about people coming into his home and behaving in ways that he finds repellent and disturbing. Maybe he can offer to pay $50 a week to his boyfriend to make the issue go away. Now, if the boyfriend actually gets something sexual out of the relationship then that’s a topic the two of them should discuss before they move in together.

@7 Agreed. One of the things that I've observed over the years is that, for some reason, the ones who are most disrespectful towards those older than themselves tend to be the ones least likely to age gracefully. Karma perhaps?

Put your foot down if it really bothers you that much? There's no material impact on you, so I think the best option is a win-win-indifferent situation where you don't care, your boyfriend gets money (and you both get some housekeeping services), and the old man gets off (in his own space), but if you can't get past it, you get to set boundaries. Though you may need to make up the difference in income for your boyfriend to some extent by paying more bills.

Nine-year-old rerun, so this is presumably resolved somehow; my advice is for people in similar situations.

Wow I wonder if this couple worked out and are still together? Was it really okay and cool to be such a fucking ageist asshole back in 2010? Was blatant disrespect for other people...gay people ...who probably grew up in a different time and ? And what's up with dissing someone else's kink as perverted? Seems like the two guys had good respectful thing going. Hope this LW expanded his limited horizons more than a little.

CMD @5, the link is at the bottom of the article.

Before the old perv come over each week, scrub the toilet yourself with whatever it takes to make it clean clean clean. I don't know if this will make you feel better, but it will make ME feel better.

I think a bit of compromise is in order: the Perv can agree to clean the toilet properly after cleaning it with his toothbrush.

Hm. Basically I agree with Sportlandia @8. If they move in together, old perv will be cleaning the toilet which the LW uses with his toothbrush. LW will then be an unwilling participant in a kink setup he does not want.

BF and old perv should find some other way to satisfy their kinks, a way which does not involve the LW.

Just because someone is aroused by using the implement with which they have cleaned my toilet to brush their teeth or anything else, that doesn't mean that my peeing and pooping in it makes me unwillingly or tacitly involved in that part of their sex life, ffs. Meanwhile, though, does one really need to clearly articulate a reason not to want to live that way? Being magnanimous is cool, but sometimes you can't.

I hope these two broke up and Old Perv is still cleaning the (ex) boyfriend's flat. I should be so lucky! Dude, if you don't want to participate in this kink, don't be at home when Old Perv comes to clean, like you wouldn't need to be when the "cleaning lady" (gag) was there. Personally, if I had to choose between someone who cleaned my house for nothing in return and some dude, the cleaner would stay. :-)

Now if the new boyfriend offers to do all of the cleaning and pay an extra $50 a week towards the rent, they'll have solved the problem, and Old Perv can find a new student to service. But I doubt this self-centred dude will think that's fair.

I agree with Sportlandia as well [shudder]. It's reasonable to make sex work with other people a deal breaker in a relationship (even if it's obscure sex work) and I would definitely refuse to live in a house where my S/O brought in someone else weekly for his/her dom session. It's uncomfortable and also, I'd be worried the perv would slip some poison in my coffee beans for daring to move in with his/her fantasy.

Late sixties is not old. It’s old-er. Can imagine how insufferable this boy is ten years later.

Hooray! The old perv stayed. Reading the letter, I was on the side of the old perv, second on the side of the bf, last on the side of the lw.

Two further observations:

1) Your apartment is not clean if the perv cleans it only once a week. You still have to clean it somewhat;

2) I think he is sticking the toothbrush up his ass.

@8. Sportlandia. No, because the LW left it up to Dan to decide. It's an inconvenience, not a major squick.

@12. dougsf. He does? He does clean?

@28 and @30 We've all assumed that he brushes his teeth with it (because the letter writer did)but that seemed so implausible it made me doubt the veracity of the letter - that part reads like homophobic frat boy. But I'm with @28, he's not brushing his teeth, he's sticking it up his ass or rubbing it on his dick or something. Still kind of gross but infinitely better. I can sleep tonight.

I think he should let the bf keep his perv but not move in. Keep his own space. Of course, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone married with kids and pets in too small a space, so the idea of my very own space is way more appealing to me now than it would have been when I was young aand childless and spent all my time in my then-bf's space anyway, so I doubt the LW will find this suggestion satisfactory.

@20 Fichu
"Before the old perv come over each week, scrub the toilet yourself with whatever it takes to make it clean clean clean."

Hell since what the Professor is doing isn't cleaning (and might be the opposite), I'd clean it AFTER not before.

@31 larrystone007
I don't disagree. But @30 was a joke...in which I didn't say he WAS brushing his teeth with it, I said I READ THAT he was. (It was bad enough this got printed once, let alone re-run.)

Yeah it's implausible, probably fake is as likely as anyone's attempts to change what we were told to make it seem less fake.

Where can I find an old perv to clean my place. No matter that I'm an old perv, myself, but in different ways.

I'd gladly let an older guy come over and clean my place for $50 a week. Hell, for another $50 he could "accidentally" walk in on me naked (no touching).

I’m somewhat old to some, fairly pervy to most, an experienced cleaner, maid uniform and all, looking for cleaning opportunities in greater Savageville area. My email can be found in a fairly recent weekly thread.
Serious inquiries only, references upon request.

Too far for me to employ your services CMD, I need a bloody good cleaner though.
How rude is this LW. Dan called it, there is a relationship going on between his bf and the older gentleman. Who cares how the toilet is cleaned, it’s the frickin toilet.

First of all, thank you to those who have interpreted a different use for the toothbrush than cleaning the Old Perv's (OP) teeth. That really made me queasy.

Second, as others have pointed out, this is not a thorough cleaning. But as not only is it an unpaid "cleaning," but rather, the OP pays the bf to do it, there are really no grounds for criticism on that front.

Thirdly, this letter is 9 years old and I wonder how they resolved it.

Fourth, and really: take away all the exciting details--the depth of the perversion, the age of the OP, the grossness (to some) of the toothbrush--and this is really an issue of how much control should one partner (partner #1, or just #1) get to exert over the other (partner #2, or just #2) in regards to activities that don't include partner #1 and don't harm #1?

So then there are some questions that branch from this first one:
(A) the home will now be #1's home, too, whereas before it was just #2's home. How much say should #1 have over what goes on in his own home?

(B) Since this is a form of sex work, though very passively, with no risk of disease (unless they never, ever clean the bathroom, assuming erroneously that is is actually clean after OP gets done), does #1 have the right to ask #2 to stop doing it because #1 is uncomfortable with the idea of #2 doing sex work, while being his (#1's) live-in partner?

Which branches down to:
(C) is this overly-controlling on #1's part, or should #2, knowing how much this situation upsets #1, be fine with giving up the arrangement he's had for years, in the cause of being accommodating and compromising?

(D) How much does this really mean to #2? Has he been going along with it all this time out of a combination of inertia, a way to not have to do his own housecleaning, and some extra cash, or by now, does he have a genuine fondness for the OP and is he being asked to give up a friendship that is no threat to his romantic relationship because his partner doesn't like him having this relationship, which has no practical effect on #1?

(E) Can this continue as a DADT situation?

This one's easy. Move into a townhouse, and have OP scrub only BF's toilet.

@39: Mr. Ven, what an excellent solution.

No Mr Venn, it’s this kids attitude which is wrong. He’s a gay man, he knows there are multiple ways, it would seem, gay men conduct their sex/ normal lives. If he’s uncomfortable about this connection his newish bf has with this older man, that means he needs to present with a little humility.
He can’t come steamrolling in, judging and calling people names. Where’s the indication the older man is a perv? The two of them might have an emotional intimacy the LW doesn’t see or get. It’s been years this has gone on, LW needs to show a little respect.

Hopefully LW completely ignored Dans terrible advice and that he and his partner are still alive and well.

@41: LavaGirl, don't you think it's possible for someone to be a pervert AND have an emotional intimacy with someone? I don't see the two as mutually exclusive.

@ everyone: I also think that while the lw might be too controlling and be making a mountain out of a molehill, it's not unheard of for someone to not want their parter to do sex work and not want their partner to do sex work in their shared home.

And most long-term committed relationships require a bit of give-and-take, some compromise, some willingness to give something up for the other person for the sake of the relationship. Only the people involved in any given relationship can know what each thinks is too much to give up in a compromise, or how much the other person means to them.

Pervert/ noun; a person whose sexual behaviour is abnormal. It depends who is looking, nocute. Many kinks sound abnormal to me, yet not at all to those who have them. Being gay is seen as abnormal by a few. This LW should protect his brothers, not denigrate and put them down.
It’s the duration of the connection he’s not taking into account. Gay men are people too,
not things.
So he cleans the toilet with a tooth brush. Maybe he had a twisted mother/ father/ caregiver who punished him by making him do this, and now he’s incorporated the humiliated into a kink.

So if the guy brought a $50 bottle of grog every week, it wouldn’t make it into the ‘sex work’ category. If it was just that, why did the bf want the arrangement to continue so much this letter was written? Was he that lazy he couldn’t with the LW clean his space, and $50 is nothing.

@45: $50 once in a great while is nothing; $50 once a week is $200 a month--and that's hardly "nothing."

And it is a kind of sex work. The lw's boyfriend knows that the "old pervert" is getting turned on by this and wanknig about it the second he can. That's not the same as "Buying a bottle of grog." Not to mention, that in this scenario, it's the boyfriend who's the "bottle of grog;" it's not the boyfriend doing the buying.

IWas @32: Yes. Nine months is too soon to move in anyway.

Venn @39: Oh yes, "easy" solution, every young couple can afford a place that big. eye roll

NoCute @43: Lava was arguing that these two men do have an emotional intimacy.

Dunno about you all. If I had a partner whom I was talking about moving in with, and they told me I'd never have to clean because a pervert took care of it all, I'd think I'd won the lottery, but that seems to be just me!

@47: Yes, BiDanFan, I understood that LavaGirl was suggesting that the "Old Pervert" and the boyfriend have an emotional intimacy. But I read her comment @41("He can’t come steamrolling in, judging and calling people names. Where’s the indication the older man is a perv? The two of them might have an emotional intimacy the LW doesn’t see or get") as suggesting that because the men have an emotional intimacy, the "Old Pervert" isn't or can't be really a pervert.

Which I don't find mutually exclusive. Of course, I could be mistaken in my interpretation of LavaGirl.

Ah, gotcha NoCute @48. Yes, he's an old perv with whom the boyfriend has emotional intimacy. Lava, "perv" just means he has kinks. He gets off on cleaning younger men's houses, there's your indication he's a perv. Many kinksters use this term affectionately for themselves. My guess is if you said to this man, "You're a perv!", he'd say, "Yes, and?"

Does Old Perv have family and friends? Does he have a job and savings? Are there other people in his life besides the people he has an "arrangement" with? I'm a big supporter of emotional intimacy, and I do believe that not all sexual arrangements have to come with the whole commitment shebang, but I also believe that when someone has no one else, it's the right thing to do to step up when our long term partners in arrangements or intimacy or whatever you want to call it need help. So I'd inquire to the point where, when Old Perv needs help getting settled in a retirement home or needs someone to run interference with doctors for him, these guys are there to look after him. Just the basics. Not full scale take care of the old guy for life, but some help when he needs it.

Nocute
I can’t and won’t speak for Lava, yet what stood out for me is new bf already labeling prof as an old pervert. You enhance the purely sexual hit assumption by mentioning the money prof pays and the assumption that he is “wanknig about it the second he can.”

As for money, prof may be a life time faculty member with a, let’s hope, decent salary after all those years as well as a semi-decent retirement. He is likely to be single due to the non-existent s/s marriage back in his days, hence probably no children nor spouse he has to worry about.
The amount he pays, $200, is about half of the hourly fee that a pro would charge for their services. Some people here have expressed their pro pro stand and interactions and I suspect they’re already paying more than that for just an hour a month.

As for the prof state of mind, it is very possible that this is all it entails, 100 or around 78% hands free. Some acts of submission could be meditative only, and in this case challenging oneself to an ongoing series of acts. Paying is likely to be part of the experience, enhancing humiliation and devotion.

@29 I got the impression from the letter that his services as an actual house cleaner are lackluster. Perhaps that is not the case.

@Bi, I am entirely with you. If someone wanted to pay me for the privilege of cleaning my house (and they were already established as trustworthy) I would feel like I won the fucking jackpot. I can barely get the people who LIVE in my house to clean.
@DougSF, the letter states that the OP cleans the apartment, does the BF's laundry, and washes the dishes, in addition to the part about the toilet. What makes you feel his services are lackluster?
@CMD Alas, I am with Lava. You are too far away but I would love to have you!

Fichu @50: Wow. Your sympathy is misplaced. This guy is in his late 60s, not 90, and he is (present tense) a professor at their former university. There's nothing that suggests he has no one and nothing else in his life. Quite the opposite. If he can afford to pay the BF $50 to satisfy his kinks, he must be doing all right. Why these negative assumptions about someone just because he happens to be older and kinky? Ageist and kink shaming!

Dougsf @52: I think if "and he does a terrible job" were a factor, TAFT would have said so. In my (admittedly limited) experience, there are two kinds of cleaning perverts: those who love to serve, and those who do a bad job on purpose to get a spanking. Because BF is only being present, not administering punishments, I assume Old Perv is in the first category.

BiDan-- You're right. I didn't catch the "professor at the university" in the original letter and had imagined something different.

Oh thanks Tachy, YOU seem to be a lovely person who have already earned my trust and very likely deserves my submission.
Fichu- i wish i could dispel some misconceptions in person.

Back to the letter if i may …
i have failed to recognize that prof paying could also be his very own topping from the bottom act, ensuring young man’s “motivation.”
Not that topping from the bottom is wrong or anything, after all most of us in greater Savageville are known for our fairly aggressive passive-aggressive ‘tude.
Yet in light of LW’s moving in a revisit of the contract may not be such a bad idea after all.

Again, this doesn’t necessarily make prof a lonely, creepy person. His submission acts could very well come from a powerful position, allowing him letting go on occasion.

Is it just me, or has this been rerun recently? I've definitely read it before, and I've only been reading for ~1.5-2 years (can't remember exactly). Though I did do a deep dive into the archives around a year and a half ago when I was depressed and avoiding school. So it could have been rerun years ago. All I know is, I've read it before, and it certainly wasn't in 2010.

Funny, the first six or so comments in the linked "originally published" column are complaints that it's a rerun from Slog. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Ms Muse - Yes; this is at least the third outing.

Ms Fan - I once had the lower half of a house at quite a good rent. When the house sold rather quickly, I had less than a month in which to relocate and had to take a townhouse, which was only about 50%-60% more expensive, which doesn't seem unreasonable for a relocation from two single homes. It wasn't all that much larger, but the added size could be an advantage by providing options for either not cleaning one or two rooms (used by LW) or cleaning only particular rooms used by only BF.

Ms Lava - I respectfully submit that I have a good deal more experience with being called an old perv than you do, as well as much more of a stake in encouraging kind treatment of gay elders by the rising generations. I think I'll address particulars in the next post.

Particulars:

LW's attitude towards Mr Older is not ideal, but the common theme among gaybies, especially those coming off a long run of being around their peers rather than groups of mixed ages, of thinking that Life Ends at 40 (it used to be 30) is something that a good many gaybies have overcome with a little time and experience. I think I have a slight inclination to be somewhat generous to LW on the grounds of his apparently being able to live with Mr Older's presence in BF's life so long as they live apart.

As Mr Kevin hinted originally, this could to a certain extent be presuming too much. We don't know that Mr Older will be as eager to clean for two as he is to clean for one.

I have a hunch that there's a bit of what I'll call Gross-Out Play going on here, but I'm not sure whether it originates from Mr Older or from BF. It's not uncommon to emphasize and/or exaggerate one's interest or engagement in filth, especially for those who grew up in an age of illegality. It could also come from BF to create a bit of contrast between the two relationships.

In a similar line, people seem to be assuming that Mr Older's using the toothbrush both for toilet scrubbing and then for his own teeth is a presumption of LW's. It's possible, but the letter gives me a feel that it's something LW has been told. LW may have heard Mr Older say it himself, it may have been an invention of BF's, or BF may have repeated what Mr Older told him. If I absolutely HAD to guess, I'd go for the last, as I've really no idea where it originated.

One solid point in LW's column is that, if Mr Older stays on in the same capacity, LW will be making a contribution to Mr O's satisfaction. If, say, the kink took the form of Mr Older's buying and replacing BF's worn underwear, it would be one thing for LW to agree to that tradition's continuation, and another if his underwear were expected to be included in the transaction. I think Ms Cute agrees with me that finding a way for LW's not to be participating in the low-grade sex work himself might help find a way to keep both relationships in balance.

If I'm going to find a presumption here that I dislike, it's the presumption of the couple that Mr Older will want to continue the current arrangement once BF is not living on his own. This reminds me of the letter from the straight man going through the dating dry spell whose gay friend offered him oral service. They found that the arrangement suited, but wondered what to do when SLW found someone to date. Mr Savage presumed that GF would be totally okay with Hypothetical New Girlfriend's watching or even participating, and there were those in the assembled company pushing MMF or even MFM threesomes. If I were in a spiteful mood, I'd guess that the letter was written before the couple told Mr Older, they chose a home that cost $200 a month more than they wanted to pay, the couple moved in, and then Mr Older decided to discontinue the relationship.