You’re cheating on your wives!

...Sam Waterston? Is that you?

@1: I know, right?

In addition to the damaging emotional component WHEN the cheating is discovered, there's the heightened risk of STIs.

"he could wear a condom" indicates that they AREN'T using condoms now and that the LW considers condoms optional during anal sex with closeted gay guys WHILE HE'S STILL MARRIED! Maybe he's in a sexless marriage (I hope so and that she DTMFAs him for his lack of sexual attraction to him) but I'd expect he's banging the wife while thinking of Prince Harry and exposing her to his first (and soon expanding cast of) male partner's STIs.

He needs to stop screwing two people without both their permission.

His wife should seek out support from the Straight Spouse Network.

He should be open and honest with his wife and unless they choose to stay together in a companionate marriage for the kids, should probably divorce so she can find someone who can be romantically and sexually attracted to her.

maybe he doesn't want to do anything anal b/c the rest he can justify re his marriage, but can't go farther. I'd guess that pressuring him would eventually end both the fun times and the friendship.

If these guys were doing other women, it would be cheating. But since its gay sex instead of straight sex which their wives wouldn't be able to fulfill, is it still cheating?

I'm asking, as I'm in a quandary on the scenario.

@1 There's that.

@4 And there's that.

I'm gonna go against the grain here, l-dub, and say you never should have talked about it at all. You should have let your bodies do the talking for you and continued to slowly explore your sexualities together perhaps ending up there, perhaps not. Instead, you put a (probably in the mind of your lover (not in my mind)) shameful activity on the table, and he naturally said no. Now that's out there and it isn't going away.

My experience is that we talk things to death and that another way is to develop mutual respect, trust and understanding between each other and go with your bodies where they take you. You still have to listen to each other and you REALLY have to be tuned into each other, but it works and it's a heck of a lot sexier than negotiating things to death imo and experience.

LW says he's gay, so he probably isn't having sex with his wife and probably isn't worried about giving her an STD. He should consider that his bi friend IS having sex with his wife and not bringing anything home may be a reason he doesn't want his dick near any butts.

Or maybe he just likes dicks any not butts.

And they MAY not be cheating, we don't know what marital agreements are in place.

It always amazes me that someone who knows they are gay can get married to a woman. It seems both cowardly and very selfish. I feel bad for your wife and only hope she is a religious fundamentalist who thinks gays shouldn’t be allowed to get married, would be a fitting punishment.

"If these guys were doing other women, it would be cheating. But since its gay sex instead of straight sex which their wives wouldn't be able to fulfill, is it still cheating?"

I'm guessing that you value the ability to do whatever your partner wants in bed and judge your success by your partner's monogamy.

Other people have different concerns, stis, pregnancy, loss of a partner's time or attention.

And, cheating in general implies breaking the rules, in a romance it refers to a couples agreement, or mutual rules for exclusivity, so it's hard not to consider it a breach of mutual respect in general.. Cause it is.. Usually not motivated by malice, but fear of bothering your spouse with sexual desires or fear of divorce. Or being unwilling to even talk about some desires with your spouse maybe. Or the "how'd that happen?" cheater who doesn't consciously recognize their desires. Regardless it's a broken promise and that is usually disappointing, depending on how much you cared about the promise in question.

Oh yeah no pregnancy here. Maybe that's the only consequence of cheating that raindrop cares about, and not comparing herself to another woman. There is still disease, resources towards romancing another, and the broken promise in general.

LW, you say you're "definitely" gay, and anal sex with your best friend would be the "ultimate" in intimacy... Are you, perchance, in love with your best friend?

If so, my feeling is: you're lucky — this has gone real well so far. You're spending loving hot times with him, sucking each other and getting off. I don't think you should push it any further. You should just sit back and think about how likely it is that this could have never happened at all, or could have dramatically fallen apart before it even started and taken everything else in your life with it, and then just enjoy your luck.

And I hate to be a bummer, but you should probably steel yourself for the time, maybe sooner, maybe later, when it ends. Because unless your bisexual best friend is very unusual, he's not going to want to leave his family for you, or want you to leave your family for him.

Seriously, the fact that the lw's friend doesn't want to have any anal activity is the LEAST of this dude's issues.

Dude! You're cheating on your wife. You appear to be closeted and you are exposing her to STIs. You're exposing yourself to STIs. You are not only cheating on your wife, as in having sex of some kind with someone else without your wife's knowledge and consent, but you're lying to her about the most basic, fundamental aspect of your identity.

Get in therapy.

Come out to your wife.

The two of you decide (perhaps with the help of 3 therapists: 1 for each of you, and a
couples' counselor) whether you want to stay married and if so, under what
circumstances.
If you don't both want to stay married, find a healthy way to split up that will have the
least negative impact on your kids that you can manage.

THEN find a boyfriend who wants to have all kinds of anal fun.

Oy fucking vey.

Dan please do not edit your delightful Freudian typo: “But if it does happen, CANAL, you want it top happen for the right reasons.”

What is the deal with The Stranger's formatting?
Sorry about the mess that is comment #13.

@13 +1

Blah blah blah. Fuck all y’all. The LW didn’t ask for your politically appropriate opinions about cheating. Some people are just old fashioned. We compartmentalize shit to make it from one day to the next! Anyway if his boyfriend won’t fuck him, he can easily find someone who will. Simple

Well LW, tough titty for you. He said No, at least he was given a choice. Your wives were not so lucky.

CANAL, if your wife doesn't know you are gay, then you need to have a conversation with her about your sexuality. Frankly, I would leave your friend out that discussion, and let him come to terms with his infidelity on his own, but you have to let her know that you are not heterosexual, and have no interest in sex with her.

As for your buddy, my guess is that (i) mutual masturbation and oral sex aren't cheating in his mind (whereas anal sex is cheating), (ii) he is not a bottom, and/or (iii) a man's ass doesn't arouse him (i.e., he is not interested in seeing, touching, fucking any a man's ass). I do think @7/psd is on to something, in that your buddy might have accepted rimming if you had simply gone from giving him a blow job, to licking his balls, to rimming. While he was turned on he might not have given too much thought to the good sensations of your licking his ass.

I'm gonna disagree with "just going with bodies" or whatever. That can lead to unintentionally violating somebody who becomes too shocked to say no. And if you're a good person, you'll realize their freeze response is a BAD sign and will stop. But some harm will already be done.

Dan's advice is great in this situation. State your desire and then let it be.

And accept that there are some people who just can't eroticize the anus. For a multitude of reasons. I'm one of them. For me, it's only my own anus. I can play with a partner's if they enjoy it. But my own will never be an erogenous zone.

Who cares about cheating? Clearly not these two guys.

Look, if you've gotta try talking him into anal, you gotta know why he's saying no first. Seems like you just guessed it was because he thinks anal is nasty and dirty, and his reply suggests that your guess was wrong. Instead of continuing to guess why, just ask him why. We aren't mind readers. For all you know, he's actually into anal, and agrees that doing it with you would be super intimate, but unlike you, he doesn't want that level of intimacy with you. Or maybe he's just not into anal. But there's only one way to find out: ask.

@17, no, Gaydor, you're absolutely right. Sensitivity to your own spouse's feelings and concern for their health and well-being after they've pledged their whole goddamn LIFE to you is SO five years ago.

LW, you're still cheating and completely trying to justify it with a "gay" label. For fuck's sake, if you won't respect your marriages, at least respect your wives' sexual safety.

@12, that was my first thought when I read this. His wife was hardly an aside to the letter; his focus was on his intimacy with his friend. It feels like he's completely checked out of his marriage already in his own head, and is already considering the friend his primary partner.

@9 We don't know CANAL's situation.

I've been with a couple of gay guys that used to be married to a woman. Both were older, both had conservative religious families that pressured them to get married (to a woman), and they both thought it was their best option in a bad situation. One thought he deserved the punishment for being gay, and the other went to seminary. Eventually they both realized it was better to be out, gay, and no longer married to their wives--and no longer give any credence to their bullshit religion--but it took them a while to get there (more than a decade for each of them, if I remember correctly).

And kids complicate things. If CANAL's wife is homophobic (as you're hoping), coming out to her could lead to him losing custody of his kids (depending on how old the kids are).

What's with these people who write to SL asking Dan, "Help me override someone's 'no'"? That's rapey, people. No means no!

Raindrop @6, if they have not told their wives, then yes, they are cheating.

DAVID @4, if the letter correctly implies that these two men are each having sex with only two people -- their wives and each other -- and the wives are not having sex with anyone else, and they've been tested, it seems they would be a reasonable risk to have sex without condoms. They are probably not using condoms for oral. Who knows whether they have been tested.

CANAL, if you know you are gay you need to come out to your wife and end that relationship, or at least give her the ability to decide whether she wants to stay in a companionate sexless marriage and seek her own lovers. Ideally, your boyfriend would do the same, but given that he is presumably still having sex with his wife and not cheating with anyone but you, that is his decision. Like the decision whether to have anal sex, you can't make that decision for him. But you need to do the right thing where your own marriage is concerned. And once you're out to her, you can find other men who'll have the kind of sex you want.

Athari @24: "If CANAL's wife is homophobic (as you're hoping), coming out to her could lead to him losing custody of his kids (depending on how old the kids are)." Oh, well then, by all means, if doing the right thing has -consequences- then he's off the hook. Eye roll.

I agree with Ms Fan that the wife's putative homophobia is an explanation and not an excuse. Could it make a difference? perhaps, if she'd decided they weren't having sex any more but given him permission to see other people secretly. I'm not sure; even that feels a bit rules-sharky.

As for the letter and comments (Mr Kenai has quite the typo), I'd love to be able to guess that Nigel says nothing about his wife because Vita's having a grand old frustrating time with Virginia (I am hopeful that Mr Curious doesn't need THIS reference explained, given the recent film review on the main page here, let alone the small number of well-known people in history called Vita).

But a few times in a few years? That seems so anemic (which I wish were spelled with a second A). And LW has such an investment in one particular act as such a pinnacle that it seems almost a culmination.

As I can come up with six impossible life arrangements before breakfast which would explain such things as why there is no reference to Mrs LW beyond the mention of the existence of children, I don't want to pin my colours to any particular line of action until after a lengthy cross-examination. I do get a sense that SOMEONE is enjoying things just the way they are, but I can't get any reliable cosmic vibrations to indicate whom.

@6 if I'm right handed and punch you with my left hand does it still hurt? If he hasn't come out to his wife and received permission to bang other people then he's cheating. Period.

@7 considering this guy's opinion that consent is something to be negotiated he definitely cannot be trusted to figure things out in the moment. He's not listening to his lover, and they clearly aren't in tune. If talking about something means you won't do it then maybe it's just a bad idea.

@13 for the win as always.

LW doesn't respect his wife or his lover. Get thee to therapy then have several difficult conversations to figure out a relationship structure that works for you. I bet Mrs
CANAL could use some extramarital sex herself at this point.

@6 cheating is CHEATING, you dingdong. He made a choice between monogamy/marriage and "the world is my sex buffet and I'm entitled to get whatever I want". He chose the former. He still thinks the latter.

"I didn't get into the fact that CANAL and his lover are cheating on their wives."

I don't see that in the letter, so I see nothing to get into. We don't even know that the gay LW isn't fucking his wife, let alone that the wives don't consent to their husbands' activities. (Perhaps Dan cut something out of the letter that established that they were cheating; if so mentioning /that/ would have clarified this.)

I wonder if this should be considered cheating. How is this so very different from the two of them going fishing or hunting together, or going bicycling together, or doing some sort of generally male-oriented activity, i.e., something that their wives aren't invited to join in on, and perhaps have no interest in joining in on, and no doubt also do, since they're best friends?

Is it just because there's a bit of sex involved? LW doesn't speak about being in love with his best friend, or having or wanting a relationship other than friendship.

As for wringing one's hands over STIs: they don't magically appear. LW risks an STI by having sex with someone who is infected. Presumably he only has sex with his buddy, and presumably neither of them are infected.

As for wanting his buddy to fuck him - maybe he'd agree to pegging? Otherwise, yes, respect people's boundaries.

Skipping To Gommorah

Cheating isn't always CHEATING. Some people are in sexless marriages, many through no fault of their own (closeted and gay isn't an example), and they do what they have to do in order to stay married and stay sane — and many stay married for a greater good (there are, believe it or not, greater goods than "lifelong monogamy, flawlessly executed").

I'm just going to reiterate no means no. Everyone is hung up on the cheating but let's not forget that men (and women) need to learn to take no for an answer. I understand Dan's logic on all the whatifs but that is what straight guys do with women all the time. They think no means maybe but just not right now and she will come around on whatever my ask is. This can turn into anger and resentment down the line.

I reread the letter and didn't see explicit mention of cheating, although I think it is the more likely scenario than both their wives approving of their "activities".

Being married, bi, and basically closeted most of my life (only a little out as it is, my wife and a few others know), this scenario is super hot to me. In the past I have been granted some leeway to explore this type of arrangement, but lacking a best buddy to try it with I resorted to swinger sites, which was kind of hit and miss. There aren't a lot of swinger guys that are down for guy guy solo exploration. But I had some luck. I tried scruff and grindr but they were kind of terrifying. I just felt like a teenager again not having any idea what to do. Still the best friend scenario...ooof...hot!

I don't think this guy deserves Dan's sex advice. It's pretty clear he's been lying to his wife for years, with no concerns for her joy or sexual satisfaction, while most likely happily raising his kids in the kind of community where homosexuality is viewed as sinful and where wives exist to defer to husbands. I could be fully off base here, but if there were extenuating circumstances, he probably would have mentioned them in his letter. I hope he DOES force the issue and his friend DOES dump him and he gets to take a long look at his life and figure out how to treat ALL people with respect, not just dudes he wants to stick his dick in.

Hey all, this is CANAL (Dan's name for me not mine). I appreciate everyone's remarks but feel I need to make some clarifications for you all. First of all I love my buddy but I am not "in love" with my buddy so I don't fear any break up and don't want to leave my wife and family for him, or vice versa. We are both in our late 60's. I haven't had sex with my wife in a few years (her choice which I was fine with) but we still have a loving relationship. He rarely has sex either. There is no danger of STDs because neither of us have sex other than with each other or in his case occasionally with his wife. I didn't get married with the realization I was gay. And I agree that "no" is "no". I just brought it up because it was something I wanted to try but when he said he couldn't I told him I accepted his feelings. I agree that in the future we should just let our bodies lead, or not lead, the way. Finally, and maybe you will think I am just rationalizing this, but neither of us feel we are cheating on our wives. This is just two best friends who have gotten together a few times to enjoy each other fully. Thanks again for your comments.

Hi CANAL! Thanks for the context. Apologies if I got your situation all wrong. When you realized you were gay, did you tell your wife? And does she know that she (presumably) has your OK to seek sex outside your marriage if that’s what she wants?

@HPEnvy @38: I'm glad you wrote in CANAL. Does your wife know you're gay? How do you think she'd feel about you sucking off your bff and having him give you head?

I know you said that you haven't had sex in years, which I understand would be difficult, but she may still not be expecting you to be having sex (no matter what kind) with someone else (no matter whom or whether or not you're "in love" with that person). If she would be angry and hurt to find out you were getting hand jobs and blowjobs from and rubbing against a woman, how do you suppose she'd react just because you're getting hand jobs and blowjobs from--and giving hand jobs and blowjobs to--and rubbing against your male friend (who is also cheating)? Would she say, "oh, no big deal; after all, we haven't had sex in a few years," "he's not in love; this is just two friends sharing their bodies," or would she take a less cavalier attitude. It's unfair that she gets to unilaterally decide your celibacy, and that's a point in favor of bringing up this topic; but repaying one unfair act with an act of betrayal isn't the best thing to do.

On the other hand, perhaps knowing you are gay and that she couldn't provide what you want even if she was still interested in having sex, your wife might sign off on giving you a pass to have sex with men. In which case, maybe rather than trying to find a way to coerce your friend into doing something he doesn't want to do, you can go out and find a willing partner.

@38 HPEnvy
"...maybe you will think I am just rationalizing this, but neither of us feel we are cheating on our wives."

Words mean what words mean regardless of how one "feels"; I take this to infer that(1) you are cheating by the popular definition, and that is so obvious that I won't bother to quote anything.

I am merely speaking language; I don't have time today to even thinking about whether I want to speculate in order to comment upon whether their cheating is justified, or whether it might be honorable to be fucking honest. But at their age, kids sounds like a silly reason. And generally I think honor calls for a solid reason to not be honest.

(1) As coolie@36 said was "more likely", but I envy anyone with the time to burn to talk about unspecified but "more likely" scenarios.

Oh, but when it's a man cheating on a woman it's suddenly an issue? I thought savage love commenters were all about endorsing cheating no matter what the scenario? Or is it only okay when it's two men?

From my perspective, cheating is ALWAYS wrong & the slog commenter pool has become ridiculously toxic.

Maybe there's more to the letter but he never said that they weren't both in open or open-ish relationships where it's okay to fool around with a dude. We should not get out our jump to conclusions mats.

@4. David. Oh no, not Prince Harry. Prince Harry please no. Oh no young people today.

@6. raindrop. Surely you are not genuinely asking but being disingenuous?

@24. Athari. If we don't know the specifics of the lw's situation with his wife, surely it's reasonable just to come out with the boilerplate, 'don't cheat'! Let's say she was opposed to his having sex with anyone else--and, further, they had made a monogamous marital commitment. She's also (let's say) casually bigoted about gay sex. Would anyone (would you) think the lw /more/ justified in cheating with another man, because allowing this would have been especially unthinkable for his wife given her attitude to homosexuality? Surely the correct thing for anyone in this situation--wanting sex with someone not his spouse--would be to seek a pass from said spouse, or else to move to dissolving the relationship if this was not forthcoming?

/break/
CANAL thinks it would be cheating less for him to have anal with his friend than for him to go out and find (anal) sex with other willing men. Part of the reason is that he trusts his friend--also in a straight marriage, to someone his wife presumably knows--not to out him. He doesn't have this assurance with queer randos. Further, he hasn't been on any gay scene and isn't confident in being able to navigate it. And again, if he messes up or is a slow learner with anal (such is his thought-process), his friend will not shame him or subject him to painful social embarrassment. A fourth reason he wants to top his friend, not a stranger, is that going out on a gay scene, cruising for a hookup or putting up an ad on Grindr signal a commitment to a homosexual identity he hasn't made--and which may in theory threaten his het marriage. Of these four reasons (roughly) to want to fuck his friend and only his friend, about two of them turn on genuine concern for his marriage and family--for keeping it intact or shielding it from unwelcome surprises.

The other commenters are right, in that the correct thing to do is to tell his wife that he's predominantly gay and wants to top guys. We don't know what her reaction will be. Maybe it will not be the reaction CANAL expects. At the moment CANAL is asking himself the wrong question. He sort-of knows this, I would guess, in writing in to Dan with a question--'how do I persuade my bi friend?'--to which there is an evident slamdunk answer.

Larrystone007 @43: Well, he had his chance to tell us that the marriages were both open or open-ish when he wrote in @38. He didn't do that--and it would have been the obvious time to say that, since he was attempting to correct mis-impressions. For some reason, he told us he wasn't "in love" with his friend, even though no one talked about that. Not one person suggested that he leave his wife for his best friend, yet he assured us that he has not interest in doing that. And he also said, "maybe you will think I am just rationalizing this, but neither of us feel we are cheating on our wives. This is just two best friends who have gotten together a few times to enjoy each other fully." So I guess if one doesn't FEEL one is cheating on one's spouse (absent an agreement of open-ness), because the person one's having sex with is a best (same sex) friend and the two are simply "enjoy[ing] each other fully" one can have all the outside sexual relationships one wants and it's not cheating. I didn't know it worked that way.

This marriage is not open; dude's cheating. He doesn't have to say, "I'm cheating." He just had to tell Dan and us that his marriage was open, which he didn't over the course of two different letters.

Lastly, I think it's odd that the one piece of advice he seemed to take was that offered by philosophy school dropout @7. HPEnvy/CANAL says, "I agree that in the future we should just let our bodies lead, or not lead, the way." Which means . . . what? That you don't talk about what you are and aren't okay with? That you don't need consent? This is at best a "no means no" procedure, not a "yes means yes;" there's a difference.

I'm glad CANAL chimed in with more context. Although I wasn't thinking they would be as old, it was fairly obvious that STIs were not an issue since this is a closed loop. CANAL would be able to explore anal with any number of gay/bi guys, but is only interested in his best friend.

So far as cheating is concerned, yeah technically, but in this situation coming out/asking permission versus being discovered makes little difference. At nearly 70 years old I doubt anyone wants to start over or give up a support system that has worked for decades.

@42 bigg
I assumed this was another fake 1-time-to-comment account, but no, bigg has 176 comments since 2010.

"cheating is ALWAYS wrong"

bigg, when making an assertion like that, one is well-advised to have some ability to imagine hypotheticals, which are useful in assessing such assertions. Here's a hypothetical:

On your wedding night, your spouse tells you that future intimacy of any kind is absolutely positively irrevocably 1000% out of the question and forbidden, and that if it happens with anyone including them, they'll kill you and your 2,357 pre-marital kids, all of which have special needs and depend upon your income lest they all die in prolonged agony in a week. Your father-in-law is a mafia kingpin, who vows that if you get divorced, they'll kill you and your 2,357 kids and the population of Rhode Island. Blah blah blah...imagine I've gone on like this for another 5 paragraphs (sorry I gotta run).

My point is that in ethics, saying anything is always wrong is usually wrong. "Always" is a lot to defend, bigg. If you really think no hypothetical can be cooked up that makes unapproved cheating not wrong, then I think you're a looney.

Cheating may not always be wrong, but don't you think those who cheat should at least acknowledge that what they're doing would be very hurtful to their spouses? I mean, I cheated. I had all my rationalizations, and I didn't feel guilty (I told my husband I was going to do what I needed to do, but he assumed this was just something I said in the heat of a big argument and didn't mean it, and I knew he didn't believe me, and I didn't insist that he understand), but I knew damn well that I was cheating.

@28. venn. You should adopt English spellings at will. I know I do! 'Someone is enjoying things as they are...'--possibly everyone but CANAL?

@38. HPEnvy / Canal. Ah. I have seen your comment late. I think it IS cheating--or it would be cheating--if your wife doesn't know about. This is irrespective of whether you and she still have sex. What would her attitude be to knowing that you had fun occasionally with your friend? Horror? Turning a blind eye? Encouragement? I also feel you are overestimating the difficulty of your topping a guy for the first time in your late 60s. Your headset could be--'if it doesn't happen with my friend, it's not going to happen with anyone'--perhaps partly because you already share a close esteem and intimacy, and you wouldn't with another guy (or a trick), or perhaps because you fear you would be inept or have performance issues with a stranger. But ... maybe these concerns are overdone? I would join the other commenters in urging you on a path of honesty with your wife. She doesn't want sex any more--could she legitimately bar you from sex? The solution you come up with your wife could workably guide your dating or seeing other guys--and you could get to enjoy anal, whether it's with your friend or not.

Larry @43: I would agree, except that CANAL has joined the commentariat and said that he and his buddy don't consider what they're doing to be cheating.

HPEnvy @38: Yes, you are just rationalizing this. You're having sex with your buddy without your wife's knowledge. Hell, it sounds like you're gay without her knowledge. She has a right to know the person to whom she's married, and the right to decide if she wants to be with you. That's not a right she gave up when she married you.

Who fucking cares what his wife would feel about LW’s being gay and sucking his friend’s dick? Seriously. She stopped wanting to have sex with him years ago, and with that abdicated any rights to his sexual life, feelings be damned. You can’t have it both ways.

Here are two good principles:

1) Don't cheat;
2) Respect your partner's 'no' (your sex partner's, in this case).

Someone can have all the sex they like (anyhow they like, with whom they like) respecting these principles. They don't stand in the way of having sex. Good sex, hot sex. To some extent the original writer, and certainly a lot of the people trying to finesse this not being cheating, would seem to think they do.

@51: LateBloomer, I understand that. I am not even condemning the lw for cheating--but I think he should acknowledge that this is cheating, and it seems to me that he believes if he doesn't love the person whose mouth his dick is in and doesn't want to leave his wife to be with that person, it's not cheating. That's disingenuous.

Have what both ways?

@51. Late. And why do you think she did that? Maybe because he was never really into it, maybe because he was secretly gay? Their marriage has been marked by silence and deception, possibly on both sides, and by misunderstanding (also possibly). Can you read this story and simply think of CANAL as the victim of his wife's tendency to abstinence?

@52: Harriet, I read your comment--and I agree with you completely. It happens occasionally.

I just want to touch on something that I don't remember anyone else commenting on.

Although coming out to his wife would likely be devastating (I am assuming also that the wives are friends because that is just how things normally play out), I don't think that the LW necessarily has to disclose for the reasons people are stating, but that he should disclose for his wife's sake in a different vein.

LW, thank you for writing in. I understand that your wife stopped wanting to have sex years ago and this makes it feel as though you are not cheating. But why did she stop wanting to have sex? If it was for medical reasons, then perhaps this is moot, but if there are other factors at play then I think that not disclosing is potentially cruel. You state that you are gay, not bisexual, so what was sex like like with your spouse when you were having it? If it was generally unsatisfying for you (because you're gay), and not particularly satisfying for her (perhaps for the same reason), then it is not so surprising that she would not be that interested.

If that is the case, then you absolutely owe it to her to let her know that you are seeking sex elsewhere so that she may have the freedom to pursue the same. I am normally with the SL community when someone unilaterally decides that sex is a non-starter in a relationship, but your case has extenuating circumstances that absolutely affect matters. There is a BIG difference between being in a sexless marriage and finding out that only one of you is experiencing the sexless part. You are potentially robbing her of a huge part of life and happiness as she likely does not know that seeking sex elsewhere is an option in the relationship. How would you feel about that? If the idea of her sleeping with someone else bothers you, then you are definitely cheating and anything else is just rationalization. If it doesn't bother you, then you owe it to her to let her know the changing dynamics of the relationship so that she can make an informed decision.

Again, if it is a medical issue, then perhaps this is immaterial, but if you have any doubts about the why, then it is unconscionable to keep her in the dark. Really think about the situation from her perspective before dismissing my comments. Perhaps she would never have acted on a hall pass, but I bet that she would be very dismayed to learn that this was an apparent option for one of you without her knowledge.

@48 nocutename
Yes I agree, only saying it during a big argument made it cheating.

I'm /not/ berating you for it. I nearly cheated once upon a time myself (in the year leading to my divorce).

Hey generally I'm very strongly for honesty. (Just not bigg's "always".)

This is CANAL again and after this posting I'm not getting involved anymore. I'm sorry I asked the question to begin with. I was just asking Dan's opinion and I didn't realize that this would become a national forum. A number of you are making assumptions and criticizing my friend and I. Let me just tell you a few more things:

My wife knows I am bisexual/gay and she knows I masturbate to gay porn. I love her and she loves me. Does she know my friend and I had sex a few times? No, she doesn't, but read on for the reason for this.
I came to full guilt free acceptance of my sexuality through a therapist that my wife knew I was seeing and the reason why. During one of our sessions I told him about my friend and I having sex together. The Therapist felt that it was "wonderful" that I was able to realize some of my fantasies in a safe and loving way. He did not consider what I have done as cheating and saw no reason for me to tell my wife and make her feel insecure.
I wasn't trying to coerce or force my friend in doing anything. We have a very honest relationship about this and everything else. Again, I asked him, he said "no" and I respected that. Yes, we still had great sex. Also, I wasn't trying to top him but rather have him top me. It isn't the end of the world if I never have anal sex and I'm not going to go look for some stranger to fuck me. Never have, never will.
Dan left out of my letter my statement that what my friend and I did together was very pleasurable and I was happy to to leave things the way they are. I was just asking for an opinion.
Of course I love the friend whose dick is in my mouth and has my cock in his mouth, but not the kind of love that would make us want to be a couple. Disingenuous? Huh? And why can't we have it both ways? When all you guys masturbate to your fantasies (whether straight or gay) and to porn (straight and gay) are you cheating? Is reading Dan's column cheating? Aren't you getting a sexual thrill from many of the letters. Of course, you are, and there is nothing wrong with that.
I've never been unfaithful to my wife through many years of marriage before my buddy and I hooked up a couple of times. And again all you holier than thous who love to call what we did/do as cheating I just want to say to you that you don't know me, you don't know my struggles, you don't know my goodness, you don't know that I am a very loving person to all family and friends, so get off your hypocritical high horse and look at yourself for a change.

Thanks to you who have an understanding of my situation and offered words of support. OK, I'm done.

Peace!

I feel so horrible for their wives when they find out (which they will). Not only will they lose the futures they thought they had...they will also question their entire past with their spouses. (And forever question their own intuition/judgment). Their sense of reality will be shaken. I don't think anyone (even psychology professionals) quite understands the devastating impact on "the straight spouse" in this type of situation. The LW should be more worried about the mother of his children than whether or not he'll ever get to bone his married friend. I can't believe there are actually people on here blaming the wife! CANAL (the LW) says "neither of us feels we are cheating on our wives") GMAFB...

CANAL, Do the kind thing and set your wife free...At least be honest with her and give her the choice to stay married to a gay man...or not. Then direct her to the Straight Spouse Network because she's going to need all of the support she can get.

I don't know. Two issues here, so I'll take them separately.

Cheating- I'm big time anti-cheating, but he is not in a sexual relationship with his wife. If she has decided her sex life is over, then it does change things a bit in my mind. By all means, if she wants to rekindle their sex life, then he must tell her what he's up to (or at least that he has not been celibate) but I don't know if he has some obligation to tell her now since she has decided that he is no longer a part of her sex life. So it's a dishonesty and even a betrayal depending on whether or not she assumes he's discreetly getting it elsewhere or not and how she feels about that, but I don't see how it's cheating since they are not in a sexual relationship.

But ethics aside, it seems reckless nonetheless- this could blow up both families if it came out, and secrets have a way of coming out even if the LW doesn't. And while his situation (since he's in a sexless marriage) seems more justifiable, the buddy's does not. The buddy is still having sex with his life, and lying to her, and violating her consent/trust etc. While that's not on the LW, he is a part of it, and since these people all know each other, the chances of one of them discovering and telling the other are pretty high.

We'd have to know more about the wife and their relationship to comment on this, but this isn't what he asked about anyway. So moving on to the second issue...

The buddy does not want anything anal. So that's off the table. The LW needs to think about whether or not he's ok with never experiencing that. Because if he's so interested that he's going to start stepping out to get it elsewhere, then it's going to complicate the situation even more, more secrets to keep. Seems exhausting. Regardless, there are only three options: 1) check in from time to time - low pressure- to let your buddy know you are still interested, but don't pester him. I'd ordinarily say a tongue flick in that direction next time you have his balls in your mouth might natural interest him, but since he's told you definitely no then probably this isn't something you should do - it could freak him out or make him feel that you are a pest which would spoil the fun for everyone and possibly upset him. 2) Seek it elsewhere. Complicated and - depending on the situation with the marriage- reckless. Also it seems the intimacy is important here too, not just the sex so it probably wouldn't give you the same satisfaction. 3) Just deal with the fact that you don't always get what you want. A drag, but what can you do?

Finally... what about a butt plug or something like that? While you're doing other things? Not exactly what you want, but in the realm of butt play and since it would not involve your partner to do anything or have anything done to him, he'd probably be oK with you using it- could give you some of the stimulation you crave and also might slowly normalization or destigmatize butt play for him especially if he sees you get off on it. Or it might gross him out.

I just don't know about this one.

I think someone who can manage to be closeted for decades probably isn't in the habit of being too honest with himself. It's not surprising that he could rationalize away the cheating so that he doesn't think they are since he has managed to rationalize away the gay for so long.

At the same time, I just don't know that it would be less cruel to tell the wife at this point that he was going to seek sex elsewhere. Honestly it would require us to know more. Like, when his wife said, "my sex life is over"- what was the implication about his? What was his response? Maybe she's not being very honest with herself either. Maybe she's noticed he's gay and is dealing with it by closing off her own sexuality from his rather than acknowledging it? I think a lot of people's actions are motivated by "don't rock the boat" especially at that point in life.

@40/nocutename: Sorry, but no one cannot unilaterally end their spouse's sex life if they have decided that they personally are done with sex. If sex is no big deal that it is ok to deprive their spouse of sex, then it should not be a big deal that their spouse is going off doing this not such a big deal thing with someone else.

@38: If your wife is not interested in sex and you still have a loving relationship, then I would suggest that you let your wife know that you will be exploring sex with other people. Then look for someone other than your married friend with whom you can explore the sexual things you are interested in trying.

Scrolling as I respond, at the end now...

@56 Savage M has a really good post. Second all that.

Regarding the comments @58- it still doesn't address why the wife decided to end their sexual relationship, which LW if you don't want to tell people is none of our business but then it's natural that people speculate- you can just ignore what's irrelevant or clarify. But he does seem to imply that the wife might prefer the discretion rather than having full knowledge. Again, it's my opinion that it's not exactly the same thing as cheating when the one partner is not in a sexual relationship with the other in the first place, and only the LW knows to what extent this is a betrayal and to what extent the wife would prefer the situation to remain discreet, to not know and carry on. I think the comment at @58 indicate that. But, LW if you come back- that does not mean your buddy's wife feels that way, and it could blow up in your (and your family's) face, I don't know. It's a hard situation. But the fact that you'd consider masturbating to a fantasy similar to having sex in real life with another person makes me wonder how honest you are being with yourself about what's going on. And so, I recommend @56 again.

I'm reminded of a recent news headline about a woman running for office who said interracial marriage was a sin... But insisted that she wasn't a racist. Just because you don't "feel" like you're cheating doesn't change the meaning of words. Now, if you are ok with cheating because of your sexless marriage that's between you and your therapist. But if your wife knows you're gay and knows you aren't having sex with her then she deserves official confirmation that it's ok for her to be having sex with other people too.

@45 Ah the bully brigade. Thanks for saying that approaching sex the way my wife wants to means sex without consent. Talking about sex is something many people don't want to do. Including my wife. Consent can be understood without words. Haven't you ever had a connection with another human being before? Well, probably not come to think of it.

No Harriet, I’m not saying this situation has been brought on by the wife’s abstinence. Jesus. I’m saying that the SLOG drive to honesty despite the cost to everyone involved, this puritanical zeal to always reveal all and that cheating is cheating, makes no room for different circumstances or different approaches to marriage and to life.

In this case I don’t believe the LW has done anything wrong, and I don’t believe his wife is entitled to know the details of his sex life. Above all, I think the radical honesty puritans on here forever trumpeting a wife’s Right To Know need to consider what rights a wife signs away by a drift into indifference and neglect. All the LW needs to say is, “I’m taking care of myself, and you’re free to do the same.” Fin. That’s all he “owes” her, if they both agree to continue with a marriage based on family and affection.

I get agitated because I see over and over a wife’s insistence on changing a marriage to a more domestic model while still maintaining the rights of a marriage based on romance and mutual desire. That’s what I mean by not having it both ways, nocute, you can’t say you’re not having sex anymore and still want to control your spouse’s sex life. And you control by threatening unwanted behavior with divorce, financial hardship and loss of standing in the family. And as long as we prioritize betrayal over neglect, this forever puts the balance of power in the hands of the person being neglectful.

In this case we don’t know about the lead-up to the decision, and how the wife has fared until now, so I don’t consider this the same situation. But still. She said she’s not interested in having sex anymore. That’s the end of her “right” to know how her husband is getting his needs met (barring anything illegal).

Wow I feel bad for the LW with all the accusations of cheating. It wasn’t even part of the question and frankly, I don’t see how his arrangements with his wife are any of our business (especially as he did not ask about that.)
LW says he and his wife are age 69. I’m not that old, but close, and I too have (intentionally, willingly, happily) stopped having sex. I’m not married or in a relationship so it affects no one but me. However I am aware that many post-menopausal women... not a majority but a solid minority... are in the same position. If I were married I’d be thrilled that my husband had someone else he cared about to have sex with. Of course in my case, my husband would tell me because (among other things) we would have been reading Dan for 20+ years now. But LW’s wife is probably not a SL reader and I see no reason why LW should blow up his marriage for an occasional harmless dalliance. He knows her and we don’t.

It’s cool to have a theoretical discussion about what constitutes cheating. In this case, it’s not helpful or relevant. It has actually driven the LW away from the comment section which may, sometimes, be valuable. Can we please stop the verbal beating on this LW?

HPEnvy1 @58 Regular readers of Savage Love know that the online column comes equipped with a vigorous commentariat that will fill in any gaps in the story presented to them. Caveat emptor!

@68 This is true but it doesn’t justify this pillaring we are giving the LW. Btw, international forum. Beware indeed. (And hey, 69! I don’t even like 69 but it was an interesting year.)

Still banging that drum, Late.
It’s not puritanical to require that people treat others with honesty and respect. Marriage is a commitment, if you wanna break it, fine, be upfront and break it.
Try running business relationships by your creed, Late. Nobody would trust you and nobody would enter business deals with you.

You been on mars for the last few decades LW?
Because Dan has been letting comments happen with letters for a while now.
And anyway, your friend said No. Did you think Dan would have some magic to sprinkle so he’d change his mind.
No means No.

It's just shocking that we're having a conversation about what is / isn't INFIDELITY when very clearly these two men are in relationships which their wives believe to be monogamous. Any sexual play of any sort with any other human is cheating. Playing all the but but but games is ridiculous.
All that said, I have a gay friend who is sexually attracted to married men who just want some dick on the side with no pretense of anyone leaving their families. And he'll definitely introduce you to anal. If you're anywhere near Chicago HMU and I'll introduce you.

@ Late Bloomer,

I generally agree with your position and said something similar, but I think it's worth pointing out that (at least as far as we know- there's a lot left to interpretation) he has not told her she can get her needs met elsewhere. Also we don't know if she said she is finished with sex or if she said she is finished with sex with him- which are two different things. He might have reason to believe that she is likewise stepping out discreetly or that she has no interest at all- so generally I agree with your stance and also agree that it might not be applicable here, we don't know enough.

Though I think it's more nuanced than "none of her business at all" since a marriage/family does in fact involve a lot of social networks and shared consequences of individual action, and a spouse does have a right to know if their partner (active outside the marriage) is doing something that puts those things at risk. Some examples- if they are doing something illegal, if they are doing something very likely to cause drama or alienation from the children or disruption to their home life, etc. And in this case, I believe the LW is. I can see plenty of justification for the LW to have sex outside without cheating, and I agree it's really none of the wife's business if that sex is with men. But he's fucking one half of a couple that is friends with both of them, and the other man is indisputably cheating on his wife with whom he still has a sexual relationship and a family. I don't think the LW holds the lion's share of the wrong in this situation, but I do think it's reckless and I do think it could disrupt both their home lives and families and social networks, and I do think it's a betrayal to put the wife, without her knowledge, in a situation to share the fall out of all that. If he were discreetly screwing a single friend or someone not connected to his domestic life at all, your analysis would apply much more (although I know you said it's not totally applicable to this case).

In short, I get your point about the sex being none of the business of the person who has chosen to no longer be a part of their partner's sex life, but their shared domestic life together is their business.

As for this LW, it's an even trickier situation since he clearly isn't ONLY getting his sexual needs met elsewhere from a wife who has withdrawn since the is the incompatibility of sexual preferences in the first place lurks behind this story and also because he clearly has deep feelings for his buddy and the intimacy is a part of his sexual pleasure here. He's not seeking anal sex, something he could get anywhere and more discreetly, he's seeking anal with this man who he loves (even though he's not in love with him).

I don't know to what extent the wife "deserves" to know about any of it, but I think this LW is definitely past withholding info territory and on into betrayal territory. It's just not the fact of outside sex that makes it so.

Couple of old boys sucking each other’s cocks, go forth lovers and enjoy. Of course it’s not cheating.. see.. just say the words and it becomes the truth.

Oh fuck Lava, get a clue. I’m not saying it’s not cheating, I’m saying it doesn't matter.

Ya, you could be right EmmaLiz, thank you for the nuance. But assuming LW can continue to be discreet, I still feel he doesn’t owe anyone anything at this point. That’s not the kind of marriage he’s in anymore and it’s his own business. Especially given the sense I have from his comments that he takes his family obligations seriously, and that he’s otherwise a decent and kind individual.

We can always rely on your pragmatic approach tim browne@72. A gay man who loves eating pussy, and now this.
Chicago, Chicago...

Late, it might matter to the women in this story. One of whom is still fulfilling her marital obligations.
You think we become non existent because we are old girls? If I was still married and found out my husband of what would be forty yrs by now, was off sucking cock and hadn’t bothered to put it past me, and I found out, he’d be out the door. Then worse to find out he was gay all along.
Fucking cheating all right. The wife of this LW, got cheated on, in spirit, for decades.

I am not unsympathetic to the lw's desire for sex--and sex from the gender he's actually attracted to. It's not a good situation.

I also think it's shitty for one spouse to make a decision that effectively consigns the other to celibacy; but I think that that should be the impetus for an honest discussion. ("Honey, I can respect your decision, but it's not fair of you to decide that I won't have sex ever again because you don't want to ever have sex again. So I'm going to have sex outside this marriage discreetly, and you are welcome to as well, should you decide that you want to have sex again," Something like that, but less lame.) Yes, I get that some people have a hard time talking about sex, and I understand not wanting to rock the boat, and I also think that the older we are, the more real the prospect of being alone and lonely is if we leave our marriages. I understand the sunk-cost fallacy and don't know if it's really always a fallacy. If this comes out, the lw is risking a lot of unpleasant changes. I don't know whether it will be discovered or not, but if it is, the reactions might be significantly worse than if he has an uncomfortable talk with his wife.

The reality is that unless they've had an explicit understanding, most couples who default to monogamy would consider one partner having sex with someone else to be cheating, even if they're not willing to have sex with that partner. It seems illogical, but it's common. And yes, I get that it skews female--that it's more common for a wife to shut down the sexual aspect of a marriage--and that seems unfair.

But there are responses other than,"fuck you; I owe you nothing." A spouse can leave the marriage. A spouse can announce their intention (not ask permission, but state their intention) to get their sexual needs met outside, and indicate that as far as they're concerned, this marriage is now open. A spouse can grind their teeth in frustration (I don't recommend that last one, though I think it's the most common response).

Saying "it's not cheating if I don't feel like it is" or "it's not cheating if I'm getting something that you're denying me" doesn't mean that it's not cheating. And all any of has to go on in the way of definitions is a common understanding of a term which we, as a society, have agreed upon. In the case of one spouse having sex with people other than their spouse without the spouse's knowledge of the extramarital sex, we have decided, as a society, that this is an act of infidelity, in other words, cheating.

It may be justified; it may be a sane response to an insane situation; but that's how presumptions of monogamy work.

Now, it could be that the lw's wife has never enjoyed sex with him--perhaps he didn't try to mask his sexual indifference to her, or it could be that she's just over having sex, even if that sex was fantastic (I can't imagine being done with having sex if the sex is still good or great, but who knows). It could also be a source of relief to her to outsource the sex, especially if she knows he's gay (now bi/gay, according to his post @58). But we don't know. And neither does he.

Lastly, HPEnvy, if you're still reading, you said: "When all you guys masturbate to your fantasies (whether straight or gay) and to porn (straight and gay) are you cheating? Is reading Dan's column cheating? Aren't you getting a sexual thrill from many of the letters. Of course, you are, and there is nothing wrong with that." No one has suggested that masturbating to anything-- visual porn, written words, mental images, memories--is cheating. The gay or straight part is a total red herring. But I can honestly say that I have been reading Dan's column since 2005, and I have only gotten a sexual thrill maybe 3-4 times, if that many, in all the years. I don't get a thrill from hearing about people's unhappiness or stupidity, or something that is going wrong.

And philosophy school dropout, I don't know what your beef is with me, but this isn't the first time you've been assholish to me, seemingly without provocation. I said that I found it odd that the lw only responded to your suggestion, and I thought he was picking up on the wrong part of it, because despite his later assurance that he'd would always respect a "no," THE ENTIRE REASON FOR HIS LETTER TO DAN WAS TO FIND OUT HOW TO TURN THAT "NO" INTO A "YES," and seeming to misunderstand you. But jeez, man, calling me the "bully brigade" and implying that I have never had an intimate connection with another person because I think that the lw isn't being honest with either his wife or himself? Okay, whatever.

@77 LavaGirl
"marital obligations"

For me, married or not, cheating is about breaking a promise. (To not have the undisclosed sexual activity which is the definition of 'cheating'.)

Keeping one's promises is part of having integrity.

Point of order, nocutename. Your definition of infidelity is outside sex without your partner’s knowledge. That would exclude various kinds of open marriage. I would say that it is outside sex without your partner’s permission.

In this case, I think an argument could be made, possibly, that the LW has his wife’s implicit permission. It’s hard to know for sure.

Regarding “fuck you, I owe you nothing”: I realize that my comments are laced with all kinds of “fuck you” today, but that is directed more at the intractable black-and-white honesty puritans on the board. I don’t think “fuck you, I owe you nothing” is a healthy attitude to getting your needs met, I don’t recommend it, and I don’t think the LW feels that way. If you’re feeling fuck you-ish toward your spouse, perhaps divorce is a better option than an affair.

Lava, you’ve mixed up my comments to this specific letter writer with my general comments on honesty always being the best policy. So to that: When you and the others who hold monogamy sacred, and radical honesty as the One True Path, learn to give the same weight weight (as Esther Perel does, incidentally) to neglect, indifference, undermining and so on as you do to infidelity, I will start respecting your opinions.

You’ll have to get in line, Late @75. There’s a few who want to fuck Lava.

One thing we know for sure, this guy won’t write in again. Next.

LW/HPEnvy1@58~ Wow. That was a big steaming pile of self-serving rationalization. I guess as long as YOU’RE fine with it that makes it all OK, right?

Squidgie@69~ First, congrats on the 69 even if it’s not your cup of tea. Second, I don’t think this LW is being “pilloried” here. This IS the comments section, and if the majority of my beloved commenters think someone is a CPOS or find his/her actions questionable/reprehensible then maybe they should ask themselves WHY that might be. But as always, everyone is free to stop reading whenever they want if the opinions of a bunch of total strangers sting too much.

EmmaLiz, I’ve been thinking about my motivations for being here. Of course they are contaminated, not coming from pure altruism. Although, I try to keep contact with the person, even as I’m giving them a kick up the arse.
Dan Savage, a man who when I think of him, love fills my heart, is gay. And he’s put the yards in working on ridding himself of his patriarchal training.
What he has allowed is for ratbag feminists such as myself, a platform. Other women too who are strong and independent. Not men haters.
All allowed our voice.
I love you Dan Savage, because you do your bit to smash the Patriachy.

Lava@82~ Grab your ankles and grin!

@69 Squidgie
"this pillaring we are giving the LW"

@84 DonnyKlicious
"“pilloried”"

Now that Donny opened the door, may I just observe that LW's actual goal was to get 'pillared' (you know where).

@13nocute @16myself - My opinion has
changed after reading CANAL’s 2 posts. OMG u r almost 70 dude u have actuarially maybe 6 yrs left and no sex w wife now sexless by her choosing so “cheating” is less of a concern and divorce harsh if you are both happy. We get one ride on this merry go round - so go make some merry!! Hire a rent boy!

Dan @3, I score this a blown response. You were so wrapped up in this guy's longing for anal, whether or not his lover will ever go for it, whether CANAL is doing things that will ensure it never happens, etc. that you completely ignored the CPOS issue.

There's literally nothing in this letter that suggests that this is being done with consent, safely, or that there's a situation that makes the cheating excusable. Just saying "Hey, CANAL, you're a selfish asshole. No means no, you CPOS." wouldn't be a perfect answer, but it might have delivered more valuable information than obsessing on his desire to get in his lover's hole.

Oh, and the letter also sounded pretty Penthouse Forum (fake) to me.

LateBloomer @51, You're blaming the wife because she stopped wanting to have sex with him anymore, which he says was fine with him? Umm. Why is that bad if he didn't mind?

Also, did it ever cross your mind that she may have stopped because (a) she had to beg for it, (b) his disinterest was obvious, (c) he was incredibly selfish sexually, as he demonstrates by cheating and trying to demand anal from his lover, or (d) any of a number of other perfectly good reasons?

You jumping to the conclusion that she was cruelly frigid doesn't make it so. What we know is that he's cheating, he didn't discuss his extramarital sexual relationship with her, he's never told her that he's gay, she decided that they should stop having sex, and his didn't mind that decision. We have no indication of any reason why cheating was CANAL's only option. He is a CPOS.

CANAL @58, Your justifications do make the situation a bit less bad than it seemed at first, but some of what you're saying is extreme rationalization:

"When all you guys masturbate to your fantasies (whether straight or gay) and to porn (straight and gay) are you cheating? Is reading Dan's column cheating?"

No, because we're not having sex with someone other than our monogamous sex partner. The distinction between cheating and not cheating is pretty clear. Maybe you're in a situation where cheating is the least bad alternative, but neither your letter, nor your comments show that to be the case. It matters why she wanted to stop having sex, how you think she would respond and feel if asked for a hall pass, and how you think she respond and feel if she finds out about your dalliances, which she probably will.

But, based on what you've said, you're cheating and you haven't bothered to talk to your wife about opening your relationship, probably because you prefer being the only one getting sex outside of the marriage.

I wonder how CANAL/HPEnvy1 would feel if he stumbled on a secret email account and learned his wife had been having sex with her best friend for years as well. Happy for her? Frustrated that they had not found a way to live honestly with each other? Angry about her deception?

LW/HPEnvy1 @58 / CANAL: It doesn't matter what your therapist thinks or what a bunch of strangers on the Internet think. What matters is what your wife - who you say you love - would think. You say that masturbating and reading Dan's column are the same thing as cheating; well, all I can say is that if my partner caught me doing either of those things, I'm 100% certain that he wouldn't mind at all. So, ask yourself: if your wife found out that you were fucking your best friend behind her back, would she (a) be totally fine with it, or (b) feel upset and betrayed? If the answer is (b), then I'm sorry, but you're not being the good person that you claim to be.

@81: LateBloomer, you say: "Your definition of infidelity is outside sex without your partner’s knowledge. That would exclude various kinds of open marriage. I would say that it is outside sex without your partner’s permission." You're getting very nitpicky, but okay. But I don't think all permission is equal. Dan has spoken about "poly under duress," and it's possible for someone to say, "I'm not asking for permission to do X; I'm telling you that I'm going to do X" One can even tell the person why. Of course, there's the risk that the spouse will say, "if you do X, I'm leaving," and then the first partner has to decide if they're really so committed to X that they'll end the marriage to attain it. They may decide that they aren't, but they may have first made that statement because if it comes to a choice between keeping the marriage but as it's been, or leaving, they'll choose (perhaps unhappily) to leave. The point is that even if the only way one gets "permission" is to get it under duress, or to have been willing to walk if it isn't granted, even if the "permission"'s being granted is because the marriage's opening is presented as inevitable, like it or not, that isn't the same thing as permission joyfully granted, but in that case, knowledge is permission.

@90: dcp 123, you said: "What we know is that he's cheating, he didn't discuss his extramarital sexual relationship with her, he's never told her that he's gay, she decided that they should stop having sex, and his didn't mind that decision." According to HPEnvy, he has told his wife that he's gay, or she knows somehow. @58, he says, "My wife knows I am bisexual/gay and she knows I masturbate to gay porn."

I also think that the reason that HPEnvy hasn't talked with his wife is not because as you assert @91, "probably because you prefer being the only one getting sex outside of the marriage," but rather because he simply doesn't want to have what will likely be a very unpleasant conversation, which may result in his wife leaving him.

Given what Canal has told us, at this point in his life and this point in his marriage’s sex life, and given the nature and frequency of the playing around, I see no reason for him to blow up his and possibly his best friend’s marriages and families. He and his friend are being discreet. They should continue to respectfully have occasional fun with each other as long as they want to.

His friend has to make his own choices and Canal is not responsible for them. But Canal is responding to his wife’s termination of the sexual nature of their relationship in a way that is better than any other option I can think of while exploring his need for same sex intimacy as well. Sometimes well-meaning but rigid adherence to exacting rules of honor leave a bloodied battlefield with no winners that no one involved wanted. The risk of that seems high here. Sometimes, the right thing to do isn’t the best thing to do. The chances of that seem dangerously high here.

Enjoy yourself, Canal, and be careful.

dcp123 @90–for the second time, no, I am not blaming the LW’s wife for anything @51. I am actually blaming the myopic, self-righteous commentariat for insisting, as usual, with no knowledge of the circumstances and without a by-your-leave, that the wife be told details of her husband’s sex life even after she has renounced sex completely, under conditions still unknown. For all we know she’s been taking care of her own unmet needs discreetly as well. I hope she has. Or maybe she was satisfied with what they’ve had all along, who knows. I certainly don’t.

And none of you do either, but yes, when two people have a functioning, sexless arrangement in later years, you just get right in there with your morality and your outrage and insist on unnecessary overshare, possibly upsetting an unspoken equilibrium and making her miserable, possibly dropping a depth charge into their sunset years, and possibly shaking up their entire family...those are all certainly better options than a little discretion because Honesty! Monogamy! Good lord, the children!!

God forbid anybody be happy for a few short years without following the official SLOG rules on relationships. People pat themselves on the back here for their groovy open-mindedness but can’t find the compassion to empathize with a guy who’s been in the closet and raising a family for forty fucking years. Give him a break, get your high horses into the barn and give them some well-earned oats and mash for chrissake. They’ve been ridden hard today.

Alanmt says it better. I’m too pissed at the resident moral guardians to be coherent.

Look mate, no moral guardians here. Just calling it as we see it. Then it’s a different perspective to yours, eh Late. It’s the perspective of a woman, of a wife. Sorry we look at it differently to you boys.
‘If only a woman could be more like a man..’

And if his wife finds out the whole truth, after he dies. You guys ok with that possible scenario. That she finds out her whole marriage was a sham. It wasn’t that he didn’t get off on her, it was he didn’t get off on women.
You’ve got the backbones of jelly fish, some of you men.

@96 - I didn't feel the need to contribute to the outraged comments until I saw CANAL's second post in this thread, in which he says that he's not really cheating because his therapist said it was okay and anyway everybody's a cheater if they masturbate or read Dan's column. Yeah, no. I agree that telling the wife at this point would do more harm than good, but this guy doesn't get to rationalize away the fact that he IS cheating.

Bourbona @37, if CANAL doesn't deserve Dan's advice, his boyfriend certainly does!