Why Do All the Women He's Dating Assume He's Interested In Dating Them?

Comments

1

Why wait for the first or second date? LW mentioned online dating. Put that info in your profile for fucks sake!

2

Yeah dude! Most dating apps have a "what I'm looking for secion" where the options are "marriage, relationship, something casual, don't know yet." Which I know I personally, definitely pay attention to while swiping. Effing use it. Then, even if they didn't notice or pay attention, the onus is on them.

3

I'm sympathetic since the LW is new to casual dating, but I suspect Dan is right. There is no reason to wait until date 3-4 to reveal that you are not interested in anything serious. And here's why.

If you have not had sex by date 3 to 4 and then you reveal you are not looking for anything serious, that would make me wonder why in the world you are dating at all. You are clearly not looking for casual sex since we are on our 3rd or 4th date and haven't fucked yet. And yet you are also clearly not looking for a relationship. So WTF are you doing, dude?

If, as is far more likely, you are having sex on date 1 or 2 and then continuing this way before revealing on date 3 or 4 that you are not looking for a relationship, then the confusion is natural though perhaps misplaced. The woman might feel that you have not been totally honest with your intentions. The default assumption would be that you are looking to meet someone new and build some sort of relationship or else you would've stated otherwise. (Perhaps it shoudln't be the default but that's another conversation and doesn't change the reality of the situation). So in this case the "why are you dating?" likely means "why didn't you say up front that you were looking for X situation specifically and instead carried on with me for 4 dates as if you were looking for Y?"

Luckily for you, it's simple enough to state up front in your profile that you are interested in casual dating and/or friends with benefits, not in a relationship. I don't know if this would limit the number of dates you get- perhaps? Seems to me that it would limit your chances of fucking women looking for relationships but increase your chances of fucking women who are not, but that might be wrong-headed and I'll leave it to people more experienced in online dating to chime in. But even if you don't say anything direct like that in your online profile in order to maximize the number of dates you have, then you at least should clarify on the first date or at least before you fuck.

4

So many typos! Let's try that again:

Yeah dude! Most dating apps have a "what I'm looking for" section where the options are "marriage, relationship, something casual, don't know yet." Which I know I, personally, definitely pay attention to while swiping. Effing use it. Then, even if they didn't notice or pay attention, the onus is on them.

5

"...if you want to feel less shitty, be less shitty."

As always, thank you Dan Savage. Sometimes the plainest words are the finest.

6

BTW

You've been out of your marriage for FOUR MONTHS. During that time, you've had a "handful of women" who you've connected with and had 3-6 dates with. This does not include the "typical" date with women with whom you've had no chemistry after just one date.

Now assuming a "handful" is at least three, and that it's less than the "typical" date, I'd say low ball you are talking about at least seven women. And so that's seven first dates at the minimum, and at least three of them went on to 3-6 dates, again low balling at 3 that means you are talking about, at the minimum, 21 dates MINIMUM since your divorce just four months ago??? That's a new date each weekend, probably some overlap.

My dude, if this is accurate, then you are having a pretty successful dating spree. You might want to experiment just a little and see how earlier revelation of your intentions affects your success and makes things clearer for the women involved, but it doesn't seem you are having trouble attracting attention or with having a good first impression. So maybe put those skills to good use and see how you do if you specifically look for FWBs and more casual dating in order to smooth things over a longer term.

Otherwise, so long as you are sure you aren't lying to anyone, you might have already stumbled upon the perfect strategy. Like, you want casual dating and you appear to be getting a lot of it. If it ends after 3-6 dates, so what? You aren't looking for a relationship, right? Voila.

7

What @1 said. And while I’m no expert on apps used by straight folks, it’s my understanding that some (OKCupid? AdultFriendFinder?) are better places to find those interested in NSA than others. Maybe that’s where WTF should be right now.

Once he’s at the point where he’s open to something more, he can return to whatever sites he’s currently on. And he won’t have blown through all his prospects on them by revising his profiles to read “looking for NSA”, prompting dating-oriented women there to swipe accordingly.

8

Yeah this guy sounds like a train wreck. 4 months out of a marriage and he's having multiple dates, and upset multiple women. He should definitely stop dating and figure his own shit out before interacting with (and lying by I mission to) real live women.

9

*omission

10

Yes EL @ 6, the numbers are indeed impressive, not to mention the online dating rookiness and the possibility of a child or two to look after.

11

@8. That seems like an overreaction. He just needs to be sincere and accurate in his profile.

12

Just move "not looking for something serious" in your dating app profile if that's how you truly feel. There's no obligation to see every partner as a forever partner, but if you're withholding that information because you think it will inhibit you from getting what you want (presumably sex), that's a bit skeezy.

13

Well shitsnacks, @1 already covered this.

14

As everyone blames the letter writer no one points the finger at the women. The proper answer is this:

There are women who prey on vulnerable men and try and lock them into a relationship. There is nothing on you to say on date 1 or 2 that you just want to date and that's it. It's a freaking date!

However you should be considerate of her feelings so try to break into their getting to know you that you are recently divorced and stress to them how recent. If they take this as a hint that you are ready for a long-term relationship they just opened a door for you to walk out of. Take it.

Why do I say this? because I lost my wife 17 years ago shortly after she passed away I tried to make new friends and meet new people and some of the people thought "friend" meant grilfriend.

Several tried to lock me down; one tried to claim I got her pregnant because I must have jacked off on the toilet seat before she sat down. She told me she left the baby the second I crossed the border into Washington (or maybe it was Utah) but she was full of crap.

Maybe the women don't even realize they do this behavior but I suspect they do and they are just scared.

Doesn't make it right

15

Wow, @14, I have no words. Just, wow.

16

Some women even build cages in their back yards. They'll leave a plate of beer and pussy in it with the cage door wide open for weeks and act like it's just there for the taking. You'll get closer and closer, watch it thinking that door never shuts. But one day, if you step inside for your feast, BAM! The cage door swings shut and you are locked down, trapped, vulnerable prey!

It's easy not to enter a relationship. Just stop going out with or talking to the person who you don't want to be with. And while you might get away with cumming on the toilet seats of people you date, if you really do think they might be predators, then it's a good idea to make sure you never cum in their vaginas. Luckily for you, you have total control to not do that!

17

I just keep picturing a woman in the bushes, holding a string, the end of which is connected to a stick that's propping open a cage door on the other side of which is a toilet seat and every time @14 gets close to entering to jack off on to it, the bush woman snickers.

18

What's really shitty is being on a date with someone who sucks all the air out of the room talking about their situation. Men seem to have zero sense of how to roll things out. Agree that putting it in your profile is a good start. If this guys needs to repeat himself he should be brief and not go on and on.

19

@16 I love you.

And yes, I can't believe Dan didn't suggest the obvious of putting what you are looking for in your profile.

20

Four months post divorce and heartbroken yet out he still goes, finding women to have sex with him. What a trooper.

21

I agree with the addition to the profile. Barring that, I would have thought that stating that you aren't looking for anything serious is the kind of thing you say before you even have the first date (to not waste their time if that's not what they are looking for) and FOR SURE before the first time you have sex (to not be an asshole).

I feel like this is a lesson that should not have taken multiple experiences to learn.

22

Everybody's got this, but EmmaLiz nailed it @16 and 17, and LavaGirl gets an Honorable Mention @20

23

I'm recently divorced, same as WTF. I've simply put on my dating profiles that I'm not looking for anything serious. I do a lot of left-swiping on women whose profiles say they don't want anything casual, and I'm sure I get a lot of left-swiping myself.

I've certainly not been on as many dates or had as much sex as WTF appears to have had, but nor can I say I'm in a dry patch, let's just put it like that. Several women have told me they appreciate the honesty in my profile!

@8 It's ok to be dating while being a train-wreck. Us train-wrecks need human company too! Just explain you're a train-wreck. As Dan always says, use your words. E.g. 'I'm enjoying your company and I'd like to do this again, but I'm an emotional train wreck and I don't feel I'm able to be anyone's boyfriend right now.'

24

@16, 17 I, for one, never leave home without my trusty bear trap. You never know when you're going to cross paths with a vulnerable man. You might say that a bear trap is overkill, but it's certainly not every day a vulnerable man conveniently ejaculates on my toilet seat, leaving himself open to being locked down the old fashioned way.

25

Sounds like this guy is one of those 20% guys that get 80% of the women, he doesn’t sound like me or the other 80% of men on dating sites!!

26

Some of you commenters need to learn brevity. JS.

27

Thank you, Dan. Yes, dude, you can't assume every woman you date will psychically know that, fresh from a divorce, you're not looking for anything serious. Witness our recent discussion on serial monogamists. You DO need to state up front, either on your profile, before Date One or on Date One, or for the sake of humanity before you have sex with her, that you're not looking to get serious. If you've been on three to six dates with someone and are having sex, OF COURSE they're going to assume this is going in the serious-relationship direction. You're not presuming what she wants by telling her what you don't want. Don't be shitty; don't lead women on. When you talk about your divorce, which you're doing on Date One, yes?, there's your opportunity to throw in that you're still hurting and not looking to get serious. Problem easily solved.

28

HAHA @ "clitful thinking". I love it! Another great Dan Savage neologism. Which I have been terribly guilty of, sigh.

29

Dum @14, wow indeed. Here's a hint, you don't make "friends" by fucking them. If someone wants to date and you don't, tell them, "I'm not interested in dating." EmmaLiz @16, gold star!

TrainWreck @23, well said! Holly @26, perhaps you need to learn to use your scroll button.

30

@14 I’m sorry that you met some shitty people. But nothing in this letter suggests that this guy’s dates are doing anything like that.

“There is nothing on you to say on date 1 or 2 that you just want to date and that's it. It's a freaking date!”

Except it IS on LW, because LW is the one writing for advice, because he’s unhappy with the way things are going (presumably because he sees that his dates are unhappy, and most people don’t like making others unhappy). If it were one of his dates writing in, I expect people would be suggesting that they should bring up the fact that they ARE looking for something serious before they get attached (whether that’s before they have sex, or before they say romantic things, or just before they spend a lot of time together - whatever).

It’s probably good dating practice to have a conversation about what you’re looking for right at the beginning. In that sense, it’s on both parties to bring it up, and to be honest about what they want (or if they don’t know what they want, at least about what they don’t want). But we can only advise the one who writes in. It would be a bit unproductive to do otherwise, no?

I don’t think anyone’s saying the situation is all LW’s responsibility, they’re saying, “this is what you, the person who asked, can do to improve the situation.”

31

@16 @17 EmmaLiz wins the thread, spit-out-my-coffee hilarious response to @14. And @14 I'm sorry for your loss but it seems to have left you strangely confused about whether those allegedly man-trapping-women lived in Utah or Washington. So similar culturally, geographically, climate, geology, religion, politics...

32

@16 EmmaLiz
"Some women...leave a plate of beer and pussy in it with the cage door wide open"

I've never seen a better bit of writing!

Speaking of writing, Dan's headlines are routinely spectacular:
"Why Do All the Women He's Dating Assume He's Interested In Dating Them?"
"Bi Girl Asks: Why Can't Girls Just Appear In Her Bedroom?"
"Husband Can't Wrap Head Around Ethical Non-Monogamy After a Decade of Non-Ethical Non-Monogamy"
"Should He Finally Meet His "Ex" in Person?"

I wrote newspaper headlines for years, and Dan's are priceless. (Even considering that it's not as easy to have such fun with a news story.)

33

@16, et al. I could be up for some of this Sex Cage fun before it turns cold.... hmu.

I'm divorced and have been on the dating apps. The vast vast majority of people on there, especially women, are looking to settle down TOMORROW. It's almost a given if you don't say otherwise. Now... he may find the percentage of women who "aren't looking for anything serious" to be small, and perhaps well, used.

34

Dan's basically right. Move up your timeline a bit. You're allowed to meet people for dates, and for hooking up, or just to have fun, and you don't owe anybody anything. But you'll probably breathe easier the more quickly you DTR.

Also, I dated a lot immediately after leaving a long term relationship. Pretty quickly I was exhausted, and it wasn't until I was single for a long time (going on 18 months) that I actually wanted a long term relationship again. Give yourself a breather!

35

Dan's advice is terrible here. You seem to be communicating openly at the appropriate time. The one thing you might want to do different is really pepper it on. "I'm recently divorced and learning to be happy on my own." Or "I'm recently divorced and rediscovering what I'm all about and what makes me happy."

Or like, be constantly in the process of planning a road trip or something! There are ways to send this signal!!!

But there's no reason to be all "This is going anywhere" on the first date. Honestly, that's a time where you don't really know whether it's going anywhere. I mean, if she's not looking for something serious at that moment either, she's just going to feel judged and misread. And maybe think you're a bit of a buzzkill.

They're adults. If they want to know where it's going earlier they should ov up and ask.

36

If it's been a while (marriage, yeah?) since he dated, it's possible he wasn't aware of the slow bifurcation into NSA one-nighters/FWB on the one hand, and "possible LTR" on the other. Seems to me it's not so long since it was fairly common for people (M and F) to date a couple-three people non-exclusively (actual going out dates, not "netflix and") without particular expectations of anything beyond a fun time out and probably some screwing after. And if someone wanted to be "exclusive," they had to say so. Also, more of the people who are comfortable with multiple partners seem to be exploring "poly" as an identity–dating and speaking and planning in those terms–rather than just, y'know, dating several different people. (Even if they're not really into the "fidelity" part of polyfi, and even if they're mostly into never having to be the "cruel" person (i.e. the adult) who actually breaks off a relationship and moves on, when there's really nothing binding the people together beyond some squishy idea that "poly" means never being the one to put an increasingly pointless relationship out of its misery.)

As people have noted, if he's using a "marriage" type dating site because he enjoys being romantic / having a well-rounded connection / going on actual dates, he's either on the wrong site, or at minimum needs to disclose his goals in his profile.

But honestly, it's still possible that the women he dates will catch "feelings." Nobody has some sort of right to not engender feelings in others. If you expect to re-enter the dating pool at (say) 35 and meet people with the same goals as they had when you were 18, you're going to be disappointed.

37

Don't assume everyone is using the same definitions for "casual" and "serious".

Just in case, it may be useful to be a little more specific ("use your words!"). When you say "not serious," what specifically would that look like? Not being exclusive, no planning ahead more than a month, not interested in getting remarried, not looking to move in with someone, etc. If you're not sure you can describe it, you can say that, too.

Some people hear "casual" and they assume you mean you'll spend a night together and then never want to see her again. (Nothing wrong with that, but if that's not what you mean, be sure you're clear.)

At the risk of sounding callous: you are not responsible for her being disappointed that you don't want the same thing she does. Not if you're up-front about what you want. "You should only go on a second date if you want to get married!" is an odd response. Are these women Amish or something?

38

If you’re heartbroken LW, as you say, then take a minute or two to go thru those feelings. Walk along beside the river or the ocean. and you know grieve the end of your marriage. Look back on how you behaved, how you contributed to the end of a marriage you say you’re still heartbroken about. Learn from this so the next relationship you enter you don’t take the same self into, instead you take a wiser one because you paused to reflect.
Yet here you are, a couple of months post divorce, crashing around in women’s hearts and bodies and going.. geez, why are these chicks mad at me?..
Stop dating and spend some time alone, looking at yourself.

39

Wow, straight people are so different.

40

@16 hahahahahahaha

41

Yes cbu, we are. Because women are involved, and you know, that’s OK.

42

Of course women are involved in lesbian relationships, that’s not the gay you were meaning cbu, was it.

43

@6. Emma. I was doing some totting up, too. He's an exceptional woman-magnet, four months after his divorce. Do the women he dates think he's a better prospect because he's been married...? (This may take his testimony too much at face value, so ... Can there really be 3+ women he's met in so short a space of time who're interested in something long-term with him?).

@14. dumnogenus. I cannot read the tone of this post. At least I hope I can't read the tone of it.

44

How much is this guy dating/hooking up that this is happening repeatedly, after multiple dates with multiple women, when he's only been divorced for 4 months?? Yeah, I know people often date before the divorce is finalized, and that this can be a lengthy process in some states, but that's not how the first couple sentences of the letter read.

From the timeline, it seems like he'd be dating almost constantly.

Slow down, LW!

45

Ok... here’s the timeline. 4 months since marriage ended. LW “heartbroken”. In that time several women that it didn’t work with, “a handful” of women that made it 4-6 dates in and all were upset that he didn’t want more. None of the women I dated post-divorce would have moved at roadrunner speed like that... Only reasonable explanation is LW is dating desperate and totally lying about his situation/expectations. OR and this is far more likely, just like the series finale of “St. Elsewhere”, it all takes place in the imagination of an autistic boy.

46

"Used," Tim @33? Run, women, run! I hope you've put this little bit of insight on your profile.

Luke @35, if his advice is terrible and what LW is doing is just fine, then why is he having the same problem over and over? Nope. The only way your/his approach would be fine is if he were exclusively seeking women off a hookup-only app. It's not the women's fault for assuming someone who's seeking dates wants to date.

Wyl @37, good point. What does he mean by "not serious"? He clearly is up for dating the same woman up to six times or more. Perhaps he should put "casual dating" in his profile and have that conversation about what they both want out of a relationship on date one, or, as many have said, at the bare minimum before having sex.

Donny @45, good point too. What are these women doing to indicate that they want to "get serious" after three to six dates? Plan the next date? Exchange chatty text messages? Get tested and stop using condoms? Call him their boyfriend? It's possible they may not be on different pages after all.

47

I predict that being forward earlier about what he's looking for will help - Dan's right - but some of his dates will still want more by dates 3 - 6, and it will still feel shitty to let them down. That's the nature of getting to know someone

48

C'mon, he's not a "trainwreck." I've been married and monogamous for 30-plus years, and if something happened to my wife, I'd have no idea how to date, either. (Now, I also can't quite see myself heading into the dating world 4 months later, but still.) Just put "nothing serious" in your profile, dude. Even someone like me, who's never seen any dating sites, knows that....

49

Maybe he's surprised by this because the age range of women he's dating now is different than before he was married? Which means the goals are different? I do not think the LTR assumption/sounding out on 3rd date is surprising if he's dating women in their mid to late 30's. The women are just trying to make sure he's not wasting their time, he could be clear about this on date one.
Also stop talking about your divorce dude, just a "recently divorced, not looking for anything serious is fine. No one wants to hear the details. Agree that emphazing marriage as a life priority by talking so much about divorce and expecting emotional labor early on is setting you up for this. Don't try to make women sorry for you as a tactic.

50

@18: If that was the case, presumably there wouldn't be multiple women hoping for long-term relationships. I don't see anything to indicate malicious or otherwise bad behavior on anyone's part, just a common human cognitive bias (assuming that other people think like we do, share our perspectives, etc.).

51

@30: "It’s probably good dating practice to have a conversation about what you’re looking for right at the beginning."

Sure. Except for all of the people who, in letters or comments, tell us that they aren't sure exactly what tgey want or change their minds about what they want (in general or with a particular person) after a handful of dates. Dan himself is an example: his first date with Terry was a one-night stand hookup that stuck.

Personally, I'd love a world in which people were pretty clear - with themselves and others - concerning what they wanted and where their decisions tended to be pretty stable. In my experience, that's expecting a degree of both self awareness and rational, well-thought-out decision-making (if one's decisions are based on reason and the likely consequences of them are thought through beforehand, one's unlikely to cange one's mind unless circumstances change significantly) that is not characteristic of most people most of the time.

52

@Bi #46: "if his advice is terrible and what LW is doing is just fine, then why is he having the same problem over and over? Nope. The only way your/his approach would be fine is if he were exclusively seeking women off a hookup-only app. It's not the women's fault for assuming someone who's seeking dates wants to date."

His (I guess we're assuming, though expecting serious investment after a handful of dates is more of a lesbian stereotype, no?) only problem is that he's feeling bad that the women are upset that he's not looking for the same thing they are when they have that conversation on the third or sixth or whatever date. Figuring out that you actually like someone is going to take spending some time with them, so the timing of discussing "where might this be going?" the third or even sixth time you see someone doesn't seem off to me.

And a hookup app is exactly the wrong place for him - from what I can tell (multiple dates with multiple women to enjoy the process of dating itself, as the end and not a means to an end), he's looking for causal, non-exclusive DATING, not one-and-done hookups (or meeting for sex and nothing else hookups, which are the two ways I understand that term to be used). So, someone looking for dating belongs on a dating site. He DOES want to date - the women aren't having sadfeels that he wants to date, they're having sadfeels that he's not looking to be anyone's (and, consequently, their) exclusive boyfriend/partner.

Me? I hate dating; for me it very much is a means to an end and not something enjoyable for itself. But I also know that there are lots of people who like going out on dates with different people. I don't think they're wrong for liking casual/uncommitted dating, it's just not for me, so we part ways without me getting upset or questioning why they're even dating (the answer is obvious: they like dating, not commitment, at least not with me).

53

True John @51, a lot of people don’t know what they are looking for. This man though knows what he’s not looking for and before he beds women, it’s on him to disclose. Unless as Fan has pointed out, he goes on NSA sites.
My guess is he wants the emotional intimacy a woman who is looking for a LTR will give him, rather than a quickie with different randoms. Using these women’s bodies and their hearts to fill the gap and then thinking he’s done nothing wrong.

54

cbu, I don’t know how many gay men murder their partners, in Australia yesterday the 51st or maybe it was 52nd woman this year, was murdered by her current/ ex partner. This woman was pregnant. They saved the baby by cesarean, the mother died a little later.
Yeah you’re right, straight relationships are different because women need to factor in safety.

56

LW asked "Is there a type of legitimate dating that is looking to enjoy others company without wanting to build something together?"

Yes. "Casual dating" and certain types of ethical non-monogamy. If you prefer monogamy, lots of people, especially those beyond baby making years, are open to a "living apart together" scenario. Bumble has a filter for "casual" and OKCupid has various filters for non-monogamy.

LW asked: "Is the onus on me to say something different from Date 1?"

I'm a woman, but I always state my intentions upfront. I disagree with those saying "unless it's a hookup app" as I've found most people on sites like Tinder, sometimes referred to as a hookup app, will still default to thinking in terms of monogamy and relationship escalation being the norm. This is especially true when "dating" happens, as LW indicates he is doing.

Speculating on the LW's dating spree, it reminds me of a man I dated who was exceptionally appealing and endlessly frustrated that women wanted more from him than he had to give. As someone who prefers non-monogamy, even I was frustrated at times because his sheer volume of dating resulted in him being spread very thin. I wonder if that may be another reason LW is hearing women ask if they should be dating others. This man I mention heard this question a lot and found it surprising these women were "asking permission" to do this instead of assuming it was fine to do this. Perhaps a difference in socialization, who knows, But yet another reason to make intentions clear upfront.

57

@6 and @16. Amazing. 6 was great because math is awesome. 16 was great because it was confusing and then delightful. And a terrible image. You win.

58

I think part of this is just him being confused being divorced. If he's been in a relationship a long time, his entire perspective is based on being in committed relationships. He's probably not very good at doing things casually and is doing things he misses from his marriage/committed relationship that guys don't tend to do early in relationships (hold hands, bring flowers, etc.)

I had this issue when I was single, I tended to get too romantic too early. I once made soup for a casual sex partner when she got strep (and then got strep myself). I thought it was a nice thing to do and was surprised when she then started wanting us to go on more formal dates so I ended things. Looking back, I was a bonehead doing boyfriend things and being surprised by her normal reaction. A lot of that was just my dating style. In my brief and non-illustrious career, I tended to be the nice funny friend which meant I did a lot of boyfriendy things pretty early on. He may want to look at his dating style and consciously adjust it a bit. Just like you don't talk about your abusive relationship with dad on date 1, you may want to wait to show that nurturing side until its appropriate.

Wish I could apologize to her when I think about it. That wasn't #metoo level crappiness but it wasn't particularly great.

59

@58 @larrystone007 I think it's perfectly fine to do those things with casual sex partners if you're clear that you want to keep it casual and not formally date. If I was that woman, I would've been fine with you saying you weren't interested in formal dates. The sucky part to me would be if you ended things rather than just clarify the type of relationship you were seeking.

60

Continuously regretting that on SL, we can't not just PM each other, but we can't post pics.
I would totally go to GoogleImages and find a pic of a cat, sitting by a Bud Tallboy, in a cage, in someone's backyard.
And an Aussie Bushwoman snickering in the nearby hedges.

61

@60 Cat Brother
I hear ya.

I've seen one on post their email address; one could create a gmail for that purpose.

One can still paste in URLs as text, including of an image file one could upload to a free anonymous image hosting site. Some of us would open it in another tab.

62

Hey CatB, how you doing. You having a lend?
Oh, so many cats.

63

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