@ 1 - Fuck them, then.

How terrible of a person am I for imaging his mothers meltdown to be probably hilarious? I'm picturing Estelle Costanza or Fred Sanford-level projection here.

I'm pretty sure that having kids which have to be hidden from their grandparents (even ocean-apart grandparents) are likely to develop issues which require years and years of therapy. If this man wants to live a double life, that's his choice, but dragging kids into it is a terrible idea.

Victorian platypus @4 - my thoughts exactly. It’s bad enough to live a double life and expect your partner to play along. Dragging kids into it is profoundly unfair and unhealthy for the kids. If the boyfriend insists on keeping up this charade and the LW wants to stay in the relationship, kids should be off the table.

Fred Sanford, reaching for the sky, saying "I'm comin', Elizabeth!"

Nah, @1 @3. The mom can tell all her friends back home about how her son is a bachelor that has a friendship with his room mate. She can call the LW her son's "special friend" or whatever the hell she wants. What's needlessly cruel is forcing her son to pretend his boyfriend does not exist, that he lives alone, etc.

It doesn't matter what sort of lie she wants to tell her friends or herself. What matters is that when she comes to visit her son, the LW can't be expected to move out of his own damn house. When their family in the US gets married, the LW can't be expected to not attend events with people they know.

If it would cause these people problems, there's no reason the LW and the boyfriend have to travel to SK and visit the parents, fine. But it's absurd to suggest that the LW and the boyfriend should change their lives at home and pretend they aren't in a relationship. And anyway, did you guys miss the part where they are thinking to adopt children? They need to establish some boundaries now. If they have kids, does the boyfriend get to take the kids to visit grandma in SK wihtout the LW? Is the kid supposed to tell lies to back up the boyfriend's mom's selfish delusions?

Fuck all that.

Anyway, none of this is the question since the son did not write in about his family. The LW wrote in about his boyfriend.

And the LW does not have to live a double life nor pretend he does not exist, and it would be impossible to raise children in an environment like that. Either the boyfriend tells his family and everything comes out, or the LW moves on. Honestly I don't see how it works otherwise.

Yeah Ricardo said it better.

@1 To whom is it most cruel?

Fuck you Ken Mehlman.

Do not reward bad behavior.

The world would be a much better place if we all followed that guideline.

Dan nailed this one.

Mommy did not have a mental breakdown. fake fake fake. Mothers with unrealistic expectations of their children pull this shit on a regular basis when the kids show any sign of individuation or independence.

i don't see a happy ending here. dump him and find a guy who's out to his family and puts you FIRST.

@1 why do you hate children to put them in such a toxic situation?

Agree with Dan. If your BF wants to live in the closet, that's his choice. But he can't and shouldn't expect to force you and your kids into the closet too. Fuck that. It would be insane and cruel to adopt kids into that situation.

All this is true! But rather than thinking about this as an ultimatum to the boyfriend, I'd say it's time to think of it as a time to build a support structure for the boyfriend. It sounds like BF's first attempt to come out to his family was something the BF had to go through alone, in a country where the BF has no support for his sexuality (and there's tons of support for the family's cruel homophobia). I would say to the LW, don't agree to pretend you don't exist, but talk to your BF and ASK him, what would he need from you, from your friends, from your social circle and your living situation, to make it possible for him to possibly lose all support (at least for some time) from his family and his country of origin. Because that's what you're asking him to do for you. And while I agree with you and everybody that that's what he SHOULD do, you may not ever be able to see how terrifying and impossible that appears to him. So a discussion about how his life COULD be not only possible, but loving and good and healthy and beautiful for him in his newly-created family (even while his born-into family is LITERALLY ACCUSING HIM OF KILLING HIS MOTHER), is a discussion you need to have with him and with yourself. And maybe a couples therapist.

It could be that part of the reason for Mom's meltdown is that she saw her fantasies of a wedding and grandbabies go up in smoke on the revelation. Since that's not a problem now, perhaps she'll be more accepting. True, it wasn't a problem when he came out, since it was a possibility, but this time there is tangible evidence that those things can happen: son is happily partnered and seriously considering marriage and kids.

Ken @1, you are acting like Dan has suggested marching Mom up to a podium at gunpoint and making her announce, "My son is gay!" That's not what anyone is talking about. They are talking about this couple no longer hiding their relationship. Staying in the closet to appease a bigot is what's needlessly cruel. To DWBHS.

Sure, she lives on another continent. But she is coming to visit her son, in the house in which he lives with his life partner. Hello. Okay, the other alternative would be for Son to exclude Mom and Dad from his life completely, no visits, never meeting their grandchildren. Doesn't THAT seem needlessly cruel, when the alternative is personing up and telling them, "This is my boyfriend. We're getting married and starting a family someday. I hope you'll come to love him as I do"?

What a troll you are, Ken.

Agree with Dan, it’s crunch time LW, before you get too much more intertwined with this man. Before you make children lie about who their parents are.
How to do it, though. Should you both fly there and front them, then when mother has her next psychotic episode, she’s on home turf.
Don’t wait till they are in the US, hospital bills might be way higher and she has no supports to run to. Over video call or letter. Best not suggest he go there by himself again. Sounds way traumatic and pressed all the right buttons, so he’s frozen.
Good luck to both of you.

@2 Dougsf - Same here! I can just picture a Korean Estelle Costanza shrieking “I let my son move to some crazy foreign country, he comes home, and I find out he's been treating his body like it was an amusement park!”

On a more serious note, mummy dearest can go fuck herself. If throwing idiotic temper tantrums is her way of resolving family disagreements, her opinion doesn't count.

The coward here is the boyfriend. The parents and family in Korea are conservative, perhaps bigots, certainly homophobes, maybe functionally decent in other respects. The one who has to person up and live his choices and nature is the lw's partner.

The lw needs to level with his bf and say that he can't go on being a secret. That it's incompatible with raising a family. He has to say this clearer than before, insisting on the condition that the couple start a family as out gays. Last time, the pair made tactical mistakes in how they scripted the bf coming out. Flying back to Korea ... mainly for the purposes of coming out? It made the son look selfish--as if he cared less about his mother's cancer (for which he hadn't been around to care for--because he couldn't, in fairness) and more about--to his family--the bewildering and unpleasant self-advertising announcement he had to make about his sexuality. This time, have him come out emphatically and non-negotiably in a letter, email or Facetime. Allow the information to sit with his mother for a while. Say that he's starting a family with his long-term bf. Present this as a fact, then let the bf say he hopes his mother and Korean family will play a part in their child (or kids') upbringing.

There are other things I wouldn't do or say. I wouldn't encourage this lw to entertain the idea of splitting from his partner until they have had that serious talk. The bf has shown no inclination to break their relationship up--and he has already come out (as far as the lw knows) to his family. I wouldn't come up with any 'again', either. The bf's family know that he's gay. This won't be a whole new ordeal. The coming-out can be done more simply. I wouldn't rehearse any grandiose lines like 'you have to choose'. The bf doesn't, necessarily. It's more that his Korean family have to know. It's quite possible his mother will come round once there is a grandchild in the picture. The Asians I know (as opposed to Asian-Americans) are Chinese, rather than Korean: they are more concerned about stroppy or challenging nonconformity e.g. democratic or human rights or gay rights activism than nonconformity of nature e.g. being gay. Maybe they will not have such an issue with the bf being in a solid, longstanding, procreative partnership?

@14. bouncing. I agree that the lw should be thinking what he can do in terms of providing substitute family-style support for his bf.

I think the couple should also go over carefully how it played out the first time the bf came out. Was the lw even there in Korea? Did he just send him off? What did the bf say, exactly? That he was gay, or did he announce a long-partner of so many years' standing? Which would be easier for the Korean family to accept, or slowly to get used to? The bf is treading water until he either faces up to his family and starts his own or--idk--he goes back to Korea, enters the closet and starts a respectable het family there. He's resisted doing that ... maybe he's committed to the lw. What would help him take the proud, self-loving step of moving ahead with a child of their own?

@15. nightscrawl. Exactly.

Lava @17, I like your suggestion of coming out over video chat before the parents' visit. That way they have the choice to not come, and it's not a huge scene when they show up at Son's house and DWBHS is there.

@2

So people who can't accept their biological gender; just fuck them, right?

I like the idea of writing a letter about this. Certified mail with a receipt. That way the family can have a reaction without the bf there to have it inflicted upon him. “Dear parents, before you come to visit me, you must understand that I am living with/married to this guy, and we are planning on starting a family together. If this is a problem for you, don’t come. I only want to see you if you can accept me and my family.” Perhaps with a deadline. Isn’t this Dan’s usual advice for dealing with bigoted family members? You can have a relationship with your adult child and accept him, or you can not accept and lose any but the most fleeting of contacts. Ball’s in your court, mommy dearest. See you at Christmas, or if you’re lucky and I’m forgiving, I’ll attend your funeral some day.

DWBHS-- You're not asking your boyfriend to choose between his family and you. He's already, so far, chosen his family over you. You're asking him to choose you.

How to make this easier: I take it your own family from a different culture accepts both of you? Could you ask them to embrace him? If they said "We love you like a son-in-law, and we don't throw manipulative tantrums. We're not willing to throw you out of our lives every time you do something we don't like," that could go a long way towards demonstrating to your boyfriend that he's not making a choice that will leave him orphaned.

I learn so much from this column. This time it's not about anything to do with sex. It's about culture and manipulation. I don't know why I imagined manipulation of that particular sort as contained only to the cultures I'm familiar with. I ought to know that people can be pretty much the same around the world. The idea of a stereotypical Jewish mother crying "Oy, look how you're killing me" is so familiar as to be the punchline to a sick joke. I'm embarrassed that I'm surprised at the idea of a Korean mother doing the same. (Note: I'm well aware that it isn't ALL Jewish mothers. This isn't a cultural universal, only a stereotype.)

@Ken Mehlman -- @1 and 4, you are saying that SOMEONE ELSE's mental illness should dictate how people live their lives. Substitute money for lives. Should some else's mental illness -- let's say compulsive shopping -- control your bank account? Pretty disastrous for everyone.
People have a right to live and present themselves as they actually are. Yes, other people have a right to react to it, within the boundaries of law.

I doubt they will even quality for adoption when they are interviewed and asked about extended family. No agency would allow a child to be placed in a situation like that.

M?? Harriet - "Perhaps" bigots? That's some serious cherry-picking, though I think I can just see how you're getting there.

Also, "procreative" may be just the problem. I've known Jewish men whose parents melted down when they married non-Jewish women (grandchildren definitionally not Jewish); this situation adds another layer or two to potentially alienating characteristics.

If I learned that a child who I raised thought that hiding his sexuality, his spouse, and his children from the rest of his family was an acceptable thing to do, I'd have a Fred Stanford-level meltdown, too.

Most of us reading this letter come from a western background where coming out as queer is difficult and our parents sometimes react badly, but as a culture, we generally value honesty and acceptance and individuality. It's important to understand the LW's boyfriend in the context of his culture. Watch the movie "The Farewell." That movie was about China and he's Korean, but most Asian cultures have some similarities. It's not uncommon to go to expensive and elaborate lengths to sustain a lie that everyone knows is a lie, but everyone maintains for the good of the family unit. Not only is queerness a taboo, but so is individuality. It's not just, "Mom, I'm gay," it's perceived as "Mom, I no longer value anything you raised me to be or you or anyone in our family, or my country and culture, and also I'm gay and what I want matters more than anyone else in the world." (Cue the drama.) While I think that coming out is almost always the right choice and people are happier and healthier when they minimize their cognitive dissonance, I wonder if a compromise might be a better choice for this couple and this family: Don't ask him to have the "coming out" confrontation again. That's happened. They know. But also, DON'T HIDE anymore. Boyfriend brings LW to the wedding. Introduce him as his partner or boyfriend, but don't make a big deal out of it. Parents visit, LW doesn't hide. When boyfriend next visits his parents, LW comes along. If they get married, invite the family but don't necessarily expect them to come. If they eventually have kids, invite the family, extend the invitation for relationship, but don't force it. Just BE out of the closet without doing the whole drama conversation again. Let the parents tell themselves whatever lie they need to to keep their heads. If THEY decide to confront the situation, then address things from there with courage , honesty and a refusal to hide, but without entitlement. Maybe this just needs to be unspoken in their family for everyone to make it work. And maybe those of us who don't really understand that culture need to just be less judgey about it.

I imagine this is not going to be a popular perspective — and, yes, I know exactly the sort of troll he is — but, to a degree, I’m with @1.

Because let’s take what LW wrote and for “Korea” substitute “Zimbabwe”, “Saudi Arabia” or “Kazakhstan”. Would it really be advisable to send someone back to a country like that (alone!) for the purpose of coming out to his family? There’s a good chance that he wouldn’t survive.

“Oh, but Fred,” you might say, “we’re not talking about a place like that. Korea’s an industrialized democracy, a part of the free world. It’s apples and oranges. Coming out wouldn’t be equivalent to a death sentence there!”

Well, maybe not literally. But if you think LW’s boyfriend is simply being a coward, the situation is much more nuanced.

I say this as someone sitting in his apartment in Seoul, whose partner of nearly a decade (a Korean native) just walked in the door from a visit to his family on a national holiday, without me. With my blessing.

Because a combination of factors make this country a uniquely terrible place to be gay and out. Much of it has to do with the general “face culture” of greater East Asian society. Deference to elders and upholding family honor are cornerstones of Korean society. As are educational and professional achievement — all but impossible here if one is openly gay. It’s these sorts of social pressures that have led to an astonishing suicide rate and the sort of elementary- and secondary-school bullying that would be unimaginable in most other places.

So combine that with the fact that South Korea is alone among East Asian nations in having Christianity as the predominant religion and an overarching cultural influence, thanks in no small part to the missionary efforts of mainstream American Protestant churches and the major presence of the highly-religious US Armed Forces. The previous dominant religions in Korea — Confucianism, and before that Buddhism — have little to say about homosexuality.

Granted, our situation is different in key ways from LW’s. Most importantly, we’ve never considered having children. My partner’s mother has never put pressure on him to visit our homes either here or in the US, which we split our time between. I agree that trying to raise a family while not being out to one set of parents would be untenable.

And even if LW may have gone about it wrong, he has the right to want what he wants. But he doesn’t seem to be fully aware of the gravity of what he’s asking.

I want to add that the million times Dan has advised those seeking advice on coming out to THEIR OWN parents, he's included a priceless riff on how their leverage is their presence in their parents lives. And to give their parents a year. Yada yada; Dan is a master of this stuff.

As far as I'm concerned Dan's advice applies regardless of how ignorant and regressive the parents' culture is. Ignorant and regressive people can and do transcend their ignorant and regressive cultures when called upon to do so by those closest to them (hell, it's the only way most rightwingers ever see the light about anything).

I imagine there are places on Earth where the parents' culture would stone them to death for coming to sane acceptance. Then maybe part of the process would be to coordinate the process of acceptance with the parent's escape from those nightmare places (both helping the parents and providing an example to those they left behind).

Waking up is never easy. People and cultures ain't gonna do it if the effort is not made. And the effort is effing worth it, nothing is more valuable.

Emma @ 8 - I thought you'd said it better, but thanks.

Troll @ 22 - Why do trolls have to be so profoundly, mindnumbingly stupid? (It's a rhetorical question, by the way - your answer would shed no light on the subject, so please keep it to your miserable little turd of a self.)

Hey Ricardo.
Good points re building bf’s supports up in the US, to help him strengthen. Also, given the intensity of family for Asian cultures, maybe a gay SK therapist could help him. Mothers..sometimes one has to face one got a nasty one who doesn’t much care for one. And that’s what your bf has to face, LW.
He’s not losing anything because nothing is really there for him. Only his mother/ family’s projections of who he should be. They don’t love him, the real him. And you do and your children will.

Gold stars to Bouncing @14 and KathrynLena @29.

Fred @30, thanks for your perspective, but nobody is saying BF needs to go to Korea to come out. Or ever again. Alone or accompanied. He doesn't live there and the couple have no plans to move there. He can safely come out from the comfort of his American home, and if he feels unsafe visiting after that, he doesn't have to. His situation is not yours, and not just because of the future children.

Disagree with Dan. Let sleeping dogs lie. If they're looking in America and the family is in Korea, take the path of least resistance.

There’s a really beautiful documentary on Netflix right now called All in My Family that features a couple in a similar situation. They did get married and have kids and managed to come to some sort unspoken agreement with the in-laws that wasn’t a full fledged coming out but also allowed the families to be together. The grand children really changed the situation. Since LW has already come out officially this sort of arrangement might end up being the easiest way to tear down the parents assumptions about what being gay means: it still means getting married and having a family if the couple chooses. But Dan is 100% right that the LW needs to put his partner first.

KathrynLena @29 nails it in my opinion.

To me the drama of a second coming out seems unnecessary. He did come out. They all know he's gay. Now they're pretending it never happened. But obviously they all know it did.

So there's no reason to get dragged into another silly "look what you've done to your mother!" scene. If the family wants to pretend he's not gay, and they've continued to do so after he told them, "I'm gay" then they are perfectly capable of STILL continuing to do so after he shows up at a family wedding with his husband and children.

Living honestly and respectfully to his partner is his responsibility. Getting his folks to renounce their delusions isn't. If they want to pretend to be surprised every time his husband walks into a room, that's their business.

He's already told the truth. Now he just needs to live it.

Agreed with @38 but I think that in order to avoid causing a scene (either at the wedding or at his own home) the LW's partner should definitely be open about his already coming out. It sounds like he's been actively hiding the relationship (as he's even considering having the partner move out when the parents visit), and that's the thing that needs to end before an in-face confrontation with reality.

Open up social media- there must be pictures of them together. Start mentioning the partner in conversation with the parents. Stop hiding it. Tell the parents that the partner will be there when they visit. Say these things out loud, with photos, etc BEFORE they show up on his porch.

Also I disagree with some people above that the mother necessarily faked her crisis. I think some of you without experience of a traditional culture don't realize how much of an impact stuff like this makes on people- it seems silly and fake to you because you are outside their reality, but for them (these traditional parents in their traditional community) this is real life and it comes with shaming and shunning and condemnation. We don't have to agree with that- liberation is not easy nor does it happen without hurting people. But you can't deny the reality of what it's like for these people. Personal identity as separate from community roles/norms is a modern thing- it's hard to understand what it is from the other side.

The parents will eventually come to grips with it or some form of it- sparing them is impossible, they will be steamrolled with the death of their traditions regardless, and there's no reason to complicate one's own life and betray one's own future family and ability to live one's truth and be loved just to spare your parents an inevitability. But it does suck and I do sympathize. LW has been more than patient, time to advocate for himself.

BTW I get really annoyed when people pretend that a condemnation of homosexuality is a product of colonialism and did not exist in Asian cultures before Christian missionaries. Again it's a misunderstanding of the individualization and legalization of Western cultures. Christianity and colonialism brought with it individualism and therefore legal frameworks defining what are / are not permissible individual action as opposed to previously existing community kinship and religious norms. So if you go back looking for laws/teachings against homosexuality before colonialism, you are unlikely to find them, but that's because individual sexuality itself was not something that really existed in a legal way nor were relationships ever about individuals in the first place.

The situation is not one of clashing bigotries but rather of a transition between a community-based society to an individualistic one, which naturally comes with capitalism and creates these conflicts usually a generation or two after traditions have been shattered. South Korea is a rich country. In my own living memory, it was a very poor one, and in the living memory of the LW's grandparents it was war shattered. It probably seems massively selfish, from the point of view of this person's family, for him to be so focused on his own personal sexual gratification against the duties of family and community. Straight people of that generation didn't usually marry for love either.

Duties to one’s parents doesn’t include denying one’s truth.
The LW is questioning his future life with this man, so some sort of compromise is needed. The parents have too much power here, and that needs to be cut down.
The bf should face he’s risking his long term relationship with the LW and take this issue seriously.
He’s no longer a little boy and parents adapt, even South Korean ones. They know he’s gay, and they still wish to visit. So now they will learn he is partnered. Tell them before the visit though, so they visit having the full picture. If they can’t handle it, they can decide not to come.
It’s the bf who has to adult up here and stop cowering.

@40 it's not "a misunderstanding of the individualization and legalization of Western cultures" - it's run-of-the-mill self hatred masquerading as worldy signalling. It's no different than all that "They do X better in Europe unlike us stupid Americans" that obnoxious kids in college would repeat Ad nauseam after returning from a semester abroad. It's a way to tell your listener "I am better than you because you are stuck in this unenlightened hellhole" - never mind that what's being said is made up, that's not the point.

@ 1 and 2, I love you Ricardo, but I think you're being a bit harsh. There is a possibility between hiding who he is and acting like the boyfriend/future co-parent is shameful or forcing the mother to openly acknowledge her son's homosexuality.

The happy place is very much on the out of the closet side of the line. The son lives life proudly as who he is and doesn't hide his affection for his partner, no matter who is in the room. He sends his parents a letter saying that he is gay, that he always will be gay, and that he will never again make any effort to hide that, but if they want to go through life pretending that his husband is a wife or that he's just a good friend, that's their problem and sometimes he may be kissing his good friend, possibly in the presence of people they have lied to about his sexuality.

If she wants to pretend she doesn't know what she knows, that's between her and the Korean mental health professionals she deals with. It's certainly better than all the people in my country pretending they don't know that Donald Trump is a profoundly incompetent racist criminal.

EmmaLizz @8, and here I thought you said it best @7.

Mizz Liz @40 - That's very interesting. Lately I've come across a number of leftists who claim to want not to be taken for class reductionists and then proceed to push some idea of "unity" without, as I sometimes comment, giving me any reason to put myself at the mercy of the working class or an indication of any sort of plan beyond the invited inference that there is some sort of inherent rightness and virtue about the attitudes of workers. You may have increased my vocabulary for such discussions, and I thank you for that.

@45 vennominon
"...without...giving me any reason to put myself at the mercy of the working class..."

Does democracy, and it's theoretical potential to sustain an economy that works for the many instead of just for the few, frighten you? Would a monarchy make you feel more safe?

Venn the leftists and feminists you come across always seem like caricatures. I'd suggest keeping better company.

The focus on the working class is strategic- withholding labor power is really the only way to leverage structural change. Something Republicans understand very well (hence their constant disruption, fomenting of grievances and long term strategies- see Sporty's imaginary villains above, yes it's the campus activists causing all the problems) but most liberals just can not seem to wrap their heads around this fact. They are always looking for the next thing- it wasn't the pee tape, it was going to be the Mueller report, and then when it wasn't that, it's going to be this impeachment, and when that fails, it will be back to electoral politics again, and even if they get a President Warren in the White House, what will they do when all the legislation they wish to pass dies in the Senate? They will compromise with industry and defense contractors just as Obama did. The only way left to us is mass mobilization of labor power- and since the working class is defined as people doing the labor for other people's private profit, that's a narrow group of people. If you have a better idea, I'd like to hear it- all others come with simply making sure one or one's own group is on the winning side of the same system as it is. Gay white men have been very successful in this regard. But yes, of course organized labor and aspects of the working class can be reactionary. There's no reason why they couldn't be bigoted as well- homophobic, anti-feminist, racist, etc. Police and defense contractors have unions too, they can also strike, force change. There's nothing morally superior about the working class- it's just the only strategic place in which average people can come together and leverage their power against the very small number of ruling class rich people who control all our resources. None of this accounts for culture which I think must be deliberate these days as we've destroyed all traditions, and I don't think that's a bad thing as I've been on about before. What you're calling class reductionism is probably more the pendulum swinging back against the last few decades of liberalism which basically just made politics about whether or not people should like gays, dislike religion and smoke pot. Which was more reductive? At least class reductionism names its enemies and provides a path out, necessary but insufficient. Obviously this is what the whole conversation about intersectionality is about, and that's over 30 years old, so I'd suggest chatting with better informed friends. Actually, I don't suggest that. In real life, I don't discuss politics with friends in social circles- it's futile.

SK is not NK or China or Saudi Arabia or how Indonesia is going. The West arrived there a while ago and these people have TV sets. They walk the streets. One assumes kids are not indulging these old controlling ways anymore.
If mother is so mentally fragile, why come to the US? She knows her son is gay.. he doesn’t talk of it to her, she still knows.
He lives in the States now and it’s time to cut the apron strings. A decade, isn’t that how long these two men have been together? How loving and patient the LW has been. Times up.

"One assumes kids are not indulging these old controlling ways anymore"

Sorry, LavaGirl, but one would simply be wrong about that. Yes, not only do South Korean have TV sets, they produce them for much of the world, and produce much of the content consumed throughout East Asia (though less so in the past few years). You just don't find gay characters or gay-related storylines in Korean TV dramas or movies.

The kids certainly do indulge the ways of their parents. Deference to those who are even nominally older is ingrained in every aspect of social interaction. Even among twin siblings, the later-born twin is expected to address the older twin in a different manner to show respect for the fact that she is older.

A couple of nights ago I went out for dinner with a younger friend. Even though we consider each other to be peers and mostly interact that way, there are social conventions we have to observe (at least in public) or it would just look odd. We were drinking soju, which is consumed by each party pouring shots for the other. My friend always poured mine first because that's just the way it works. He also had to face a certain direction in relation to me while doing so.

Sure, there are aspects of Korean culture which are, by Western standards, misguided at best and fucked-up at worst. A significant part of the population believes you'll die in your sleep if you leave a fan on in your bedroom overnight. Exactly two decades ago, there was a major spike in abortions — in a country that prohibits them —because people really believe that girls born in the Year of the White Horse (a once-every-60-years occurrence) are destined to murder their husbands.

Societal change here on sexual orientation issues will likely come more from outside Korea than from within. Partly it will result from competitiveness with neighboring peer nations like Taiwan, which just legalized same-sex marriage; in time, the RoK as a nation won't want to seem increasingly backward in relation to them. It will also come from from Korean expats setting an example for their families back home. People like LW's boyfriend, yes, whose parents still live here — but probably more so from opposite-sex Korean couples in the West who are seen by their relatives here raising queer kids they love and accept openly.

Thanks Fred Casey, I stand corrected. Good they are respectful. There are gays there though, because your bf is one. The western influence must be seeping in, and it is the kids who shift values and expectations of the adults. Like in our culture.
Cultures are not fixed, not now anyway with mass communication. I don’t see Asian parents and their homophobia are any less offensive and justified then westerners and theirs, because culture. Nor do I think this LW and his bf should continue this charade for any longer.

@27. venn. I'm thinking now why I distinguished between a 'bigot' and a 'homophobe'. I guess, in my mind, a 'homophobe' was someone who didn't want anything to do with someone they knew was gay--didn't want a human relationship with them, to the extent of talking, say, about food or sports--and a 'bigot' was someone who made a point of decrying homosexuality.

The lw will never know whether his bf's mother will come round when a grandson is in the picture until he puts the question, metaphorically, to her. And--since they're thinking of kids--the sooner, the better, if the bf has straight Korean siblings who will also produce grandkids with whom theirs will be implicitly compared.

@30. Fred Casely. In calling the bf a 'coward', I didn't mean just in not coming out to his Korean family (which could be extraordinarily difficult, for reasons you describe). I meant in continuing in a substantial relationship with his bf in which they discuss starting a family--and in which the bf can countenance not telling his mother about it. If his gayness and his being a family member in Korea can't be squared, then he should just target short-term relationships (if he stays in America) or he should envision returning to Korea as a 'good Korean' and son. He needs to bite the bullet. At the moment he is treading water--not having given his family an ultimatum over his long-term gay relationship (however much conceding to their terms) and not having told his bf that their families can never come together through their 'marriage'.

@40. Emma. I agree with you, KathynLena and Lava that the couple should just live their out life and invite the bf's family into it without making his gayness a point they explicitly have to swallow.

@47. Emma. The 'liberal' alternative is that welfare becomes so broad and adequate--e.g. universal basic income, universal basic services (including food, transport and housing)--that there is no need to mobilise labor to effect a structural transformation in society.

Dan being a gay man is obviously bias on the issue of coming out. The Korean boy friend came out to his family in Korea once already, it didn't work. People from all cultures will lie to themselves about their children and this family is doing a good job of it.
Why can't the white (guessing here) boy friend help the man he loves hide in the closet? Why can't he make some sacrifice also? The Korean guy is out of the closet with people in America.
The compromise can be they go to the wedding as "friends".
I wonder if the guy even came out while in Korea. The timing of it would be stupid and selfish. His mother is ill and should be the focus of his visit and not the time to add stress to her.

What bull, Dashing. Mother was ill when she learnt he was gay. Mothers can accept who their kids are, whatever their culture. Why should this woman’s fears overule these two men openly and fully living their lives. They are talking of children. So you suggest the bf lies about his kids to his mother?
The LW is going to pull the plug, it sounds like, if this goes on. Mother will cope or she won’t. That’s her business.

@Harriet, how do you implement the liberal alternative? How do you force that change? Through legislation? What do you do when people who do not want to implement those changes control the legislation? Stand in the streets with signs and ask nicely? By the millions? In 2003 we shut down freeways, millions of people- made no difference, the war happened anyway. Just last week saw the biggest protests in history, people in the streets by the millions, didn't matter, all the extractive industry rich people still met in NYC and made plans for our future.

But set that aside. The problem with the liberal alternative is that at best, it requires the fair redistribution of wealth gained from imperialism, and even if you don't care about people in other parts of the world (with family and friends there, I do), then you still have to deal with the expense of military adventures and the fall out from failed states (terrorism, fundamentalism, gangs, cartels, pirates, refugee crises) coming across your borders. It's the backbone of US economy- you can't have all that wealth to fund welfare programs without it, it's a requirement for the hegemony of the dollar. There's no way around it. Liberalism as a project has failed- it's only liberals that can't see it. It's either structural change or it's a continued descent into what has already started, massive military/police fortification so that the lucky/rich people can protect themselves from everyone else.

In more happy news...

@Dashing

You are suggesting that the "probably white" boyfriend move out of his own home any time the Korean parents come to visit? I think that's insane and unreasonable, but OK let's roll with it. What do they do once they have children? Move out and hide the children as well? Or tell the parents that the boyfriend adopted the children alone and coach the kids to lie about the existence of their other dad?

This is a totally wacky scenario which would make for an amusing comedy flick but would be disastrous and traumatic in real life.

EmmaLiz @55: They can just go the Birdcage route. DWBHS can dress in drag and answer to a female name when the parents come around. (Not a serious suggestion.)

The distance here is helpful. If the family doesn't want to endure the "shame" of having a gay son, THEY can stay in the closet. They don't have to display family photos of their son and his future husband and children. They can lie about their son's "wife." But the son and his partner shouldn't have to. DWBHS should not have to hide or pretend to be a roommate. Sure, they can keep things low key as far as showing affection, but Parents' culture is Parents' issue. They can choose denial. Doesn't obligate their son to enable it.

lol Birdcage
For more zany hijinks, they could pay a woman to live with them and pretend to be the wife. LW could be the live-in house keeper.

LW has to realize he's not telling the BF to choose between him and his family. He's telling the BF to be honest. It's then up to the mom to make the choice. If mom chooses to disown him, that is her choice, not the BF's and not the LW's.

My guess is they will break up. And I really hope the gay son does not likewise go along with pressure from his mom to marry a woman. Will he put his foot down then? I have a friend in India who actually went through with a marriage rather than come out. Wife figured out and left him within a year of marriage. What a shitty thing to do to her and both families. He still hasn't come out to them, says now he's just a lifelong bachelor. I could respect that choice if he'd refused the marriage- it lets him live his truth privately while his parents just say he's single. But dragging the woman and her family into it- that was cowardly. It's amazing what people will go through to avoid confrontation.

I think there's an obvious middle ground here. Mom can stay in Korea and pretend whatever she wants. If she comes to the US to visit she'll have to confront the reality. The ball is really in her court.

Unfortunately, I this this relationship is doomed and the "future" prospect of marriage and children will never come to pass. I feel sorry for the LW who must have felt like day-old garbage when his bf suggested he move out of the house if/when the Korean parents visit. I hate to break it to the bf but hiding evidence of one's partner isn't as easy as stashing your porn or drugs. Let's pretend the LW is a gourmet cook and has a huge kitchen with all sorts of appliances while the bf can barely boil water. To hide ^everything^, the house wou8ld need to have a large basement fitted with a strong lock. Even if the LW agreed to this insanity only once, there's no guarantee that the bf wouldn't trot out some other excuse for the lie tp continue.

Understanding the unique nature of respecting elders (and ancestors) in many Asian cultures (compared to selfish individuality, the horror!), I'd second the idea of the bf stating what his parents will see when they arrive at THEIR house in a letter. Let the contents be digested. The bf might also seek help from PFLAG, asking if there are any Korean parents who would agree to help bridge the gap, perhaps writing a letter and offering to chat to reassure the parents that their son is not disrespecting them by being who he is and that he should be allowed the opportunity to have a happy, full life.

I'm Korean-American and come from a pretty traditional Korean family, and I think KathrynLena @29 and Fred Casely nailed it.

Lavagirl, I would normally agree with your advice (see a therapist, live your life as you want and mom's gotta learn to accept it, etc), but not in this case. First of all, I doubt there is such a thing as a sex positive therapist in Korea (Koreans tend to be very conservative about sex; even being divorced or a single mom can be a huge stigma because everyone knows you've gasp had sex), and second, mental health issues are an even bigger stigma in Asian cultures. The general attitude is that mental health issues are for the weak, and "normal" people should be able to power through them. Also it's all in your head, if you can't get over it you're just not trying hard enough and at the very least you should know better than to talk about it and show weakness. On top of that, the whole "saving face" part of the culture means that you never, EVER, air your dirty laundry in public. Seeing a therapist would come under that heading, since you're talking to a stranger about your private problems (which you should be solving yourself anyways), and anyone might see you go to their office and realize you have ISSUES.

Also Asian moms having meltdowns to control your kids is a very common tactic. The "respect your elders" attitude is drilled into kids from birth, so if your mom is having a meltdown you're expected to placate her or at least just sit there and take it without talking back. They don't really see the meltdown as a tantrum or something negative, it's more like "whatever it takes to keep your kid on the straight and narrow; it's for the kid's own good and they'll thank you for it some day." KathrynLuna is also exactly right when she said that boyfriend's family is not hearing "this is who I am," they're hearing "I'm bringing shame on our entire family and possibly the entire country and I don't care because I'm JUST THAT SELFISH." There's even a word for it - "nara mangshin," which literally means "someone/thing that the entire country is ashamed of."

I know this family sounds super homophobic to us as Americans, but I wouldn't be so quick to judge them that way either. I haven't lived in Korea since the 90s, but even back then most people were aware of the existence of gay people and even transgender people, and while it was unusual, it was not a terribly big deal unless you drew attention to it. There was even a K-pop star called Harisu who was quite popular in the mid-2000s and was a transgender woman. The caveat to that, though, is "as long as it's not my child" and "not in public." This family may not have problems with gay people in general, but they're going nuts because it's their own family member flaunting his SEXUALITY of all things in public, and Asians abhor anything that makes them different from everyone else. My mom has lived in the US for almost 2/3 of her life now, and she is still super paranoid about "what will the neighbors think."

I don't have great advice for this LW except that his boyfriend really does need to poop or get off the pot. It's unreasonable for him to expect others to stay in the closet with him, even if it feels like the easiest way. But I'm also sympathetic to him, because I've been there and I know it sucks. For the LW, I'd say to try to be bit more understanding and listen when your boyfriend tries to talk about this to you. I know it's really frustrating and his reasoning can sound like excuses, but it's really not easy for him, and it helps so SO much when your partner is understanding of why you can't just do things that seem so easy to them. Being caught between an angry partner who doesn't understand and a disapproving domineering family is really no fun at all.

Reading the letter again, it doesn’t mention their time together. I must have got confused with another letter. I thought it said a decade.. not that it matters. They have bought a home together, these two are solid.. with cracks.
Thanks Jina @60 for your perspective. Yes, I do understand the cultural issues here. I also don’t believe they should be indulged. And I believe the LW has been patient in this situation and he’s had enough.
Maybe you’ve called it Helenka @59, this relationship is not sustainable. The bf is too scared to own his truth, his cultural training is too deep. It holds him from many miles away, controlling him and ruining his relationship. Mother will win, unless bf stands up and is counted.

I don’t think writing a letter is, in this case, the way to go. Especially one that lays everything out at once for the parents: restating bf’s orientation (which they already know), telling them he’s in a relationship with another man, that they live together, that they intend to marry, that they hope to have kids. That’s just too much all at once. And it will leave them with an emotionally-weighted physical thing they’ll have to deal with (keep? throw away? burn?)

If LW and bf are going to successfully thread this needle, it will have to be done incrementally, and in a way that gives the family the choice to take in as much (or little) information as they care to at any time.

LW is well within his rights not to want to clear out of their house when the parents come to visit. I wouldn’t fault him for insisting on that. But he may want to consider the benefits of doing it anyway and maybe getting out of town for a few days while they’re visiting. With the understanding that it’s to be a one-time thing. And that it’s not so that bf can pretend he doesn’t live there, or that the nature of their relationship is “just roommates.”

Bf’s best strategy in dealing with his parents, as I see it, is to be as accommodating as he can be, without lying about his situation. As in, “You’re welcome to stay with me when you visit (which I’m guessing is what they expect) but I think you may be happier staying in a hotel, since I don’t live alone.” “Who do you live with?” “Well, if you’re really interested in knowing, we can talk about that. But I’m not sure that’s a conversation you want to have.” “Why?” “I think you know why,” etc.

When they get engaged, he can use the same strategy. “I’m going to be getting married, and I thought you should know. If you want to hear more about it, I’ll be happy to tell you.” “Why wouldn’t we want to know more?” “I think you know why. But it’s up to you.”

If their plan is to have kids, there’s no way of knowing whether the family will accept them as their own. But it seems to me if that’s their goal, they should consider methods other than adoption. Like arranging for bf to be the biological father, using the eggs of a mother of Korean lineage. Only bf can know if this might make a difference. But I have to think it would be harder for Koreans to reject a grandchild who is a blood relative and who is, if not native Korean, at least a full-blooded Korean-American.

Mr Curious - I suspect your definition of the "working class" contains more people than mine and is more in line with the definition of most leftists. I've always been of the mind set that the working class starts at lower-middle and goes downward, and have personally experience the nastiest anti-G attitudes from that class. The second-nastiest have come from what I've always termed the "executive class", which seems to be about half in and half out of what leftists seem to consider WC.

I have never been able to afford health insurance, but it only occurred to me recently and with some surprise that leftists seemed to be including me in the WC. I hope that clarifies.

Mizz Liz - I can give you the most recent concrete example. I don't use CR myself as a term, as I tend to feel rather classless and tend to avoid bringing it up. If I identify with anyone real or fictional with regard to class, it's probably Miss Bates, the impoverished vicar's daughter.

For my example, I've been listening to a fair amount of LeftTube (or, their term, BreadTube - which would elicit a strong response from me if the original working title of Rumpole of the Bailey hadn't been My Dear Old Prince Peter Propotkin) lately while doing my interminable paperwork and trying gently to nudge leftists towards a more favourable direction. I recently commented on one of the otherwise better-thought-out podcasts that the proposed forthcoming Revolution seemed rather trickle-down on matters of orientation. The content provider replied personally (which rarely happens) and didn't address the point at all unless it was covered in his expressed hope that I was not taking him for a class reductionist. There does seem to be a fair amount of Magical Thinking in certain circles that one need only put The Workers on top and the whole system will sort itself out beautifully for (almost) everyone without any need for effort.

Now, I've nothing in particular against putting The Workers on top, nor much in particular for the idea. Your earlier comment #40 substantiated a feeling I'd had about at least some strains of leftism's having a strong anti-individualist streak. Of course, I do want to avoid the trap of Miss Brodie's railing against "the Team Spirit" as a phrase always used to cut across individualism, all while she was forming her own team and admiring Mussolini, although I do find it interesting that Miss Brodie limited her opposition to the Team Spirit to opposing its being enjoined upon the female sex.

I recommend avoiding trying to get information from youtube mini celebrities. The leftist definition of the working class is simple, there's no reason to wonder about it. It simply means people who do labor for someone else's private profit. Some of these people make a lot of money, some are very poor.

You can talk all you want about what YOUR definition is, but that's the political definition. And again, their morality or ethics or lack thereof is also irrelevant to the fact that they do hold strategic power in a way that other masses of people (say, gathering in the streets with signs or voting blocks) do not. Consider how quickly the government shut down ended when folks went on strike- an hour? Less? How much faith I have in whether or not a mass mobilization of people withholding their labor power will actually materialize? Well I'm a pessimist. But as I said, I don't see anyone else suggesting any other strategy. See the liberal answer above: a welfare state. Fine. But that just says what you want, not how you plan to get it. How do you do that? When Warren becomes president, what makes her behave differently from Obama? Etc. And even if she wanted to (Obama didn't), how does she achieve that when everything dies in the Senate and rich people around the world lobby against it?

In my own experience, working class people tend to be as bigoted as anyone else- which means some are very much so others are not at all, plenty are gay themselves, half of them are women, they're racially diverse, etc etc, so of course organizing and reshaping culture is necessary for any of us that give a shit, but that's a separate conversation. Also very important, but not any more important than what to do about the migrant crisis or climate change or ghettos or police/ICE, etc.

The rest of what you are talking about "putting workers on top", antiindividualism, Team Spirit, Magical Thinking- I have no idea where you are getting that from or what you are going on about, but if it's YouTube, then I'm sure you are smart enough to know that 20somethings college drop outs making cheap films in their NY apartments for the ad revenue isn't really a reliable or intelligent source for comment, much less actual political education.

Though I do agree that some of those YouTube things and also podcasts (there seems to be a range to me from really good news sources to fart/dick jokes) can give you a sense of what a certain group of young hip people are thinking, though in my own experiences with activism it's totally irrelevant to what actual working people, immigrant groups, lobbyists, etc are actually saying/doing. I've been rather out of the loop for most of 2019, just at home really, and these things move quickly so who knows.

Fred Casey, your suggestion is great until you start talking of the ethnicity of the children.
So you suggest designing their children to please Mother? wtf. That is really sad, to think adult men would need to cater to Mother and family, when talking of how they will have children.
These men live in the States, it’s about time bf noticed that. How often does he see Mother anyway.. why doesn’t he bite the bullet and tell all. If they close him out, I’d call that a good day.

I had to stand up to my mother many many times over the yrs. Of course it hurt, especially when I was a young woman. Who wants that?
Using culture as an excuse is not good enough. The LW and his bf are in the West.
Telling them the truth is the verbal equivalent of his moving physically to a western country, and is finishing the job of being his own person.

@55. Emma. Personally, I'm much more a socialist than I am a liberal. I also think the lever for securing redistributive fairness is the mass withholding of labor, typically through union action but in theory through a general strike.

On the question of how you get 'universal basic services' passed as law, you get it up the agenda of social-democratic parties through advocacy and thinktanks--which is what's happening in Western Europe. I hold out greater prospects for liberal incrementalism than you--especially since that's exactly what won the major social reforms of the last 50 years--no-fault divorce, gay marriage. On imperialism, Soviet Communism came to depend on a bloated defense sector and hegemonic dominance in eastern Europe just as much as Reaganism, or any version of US neoliberalism, did on neoimperialism. There's no sense for me that a doctrine of private capital, or of the concentration of capital, has a monopoly of needing exploitative relations with satellite or subordinate states.

And I thought it was bad when I came out! Screaming, hysterical insanity never even entered the picture. It makes frozen silence seem not so bad after all.

Anyway, yeah, the LW is right: this isn’t sustainable, but what the boyfriend has to struggle through is really, really hard stuff. There’s nothing quite like knowing your family wants a lie more than they want you. I’d throw the lot of ‘em in the trash and move right on with the person who does, but that’s me. I hope the boyfriend has the courage to face the fact that his birth family doesn’t love him, because the fact is: they don’t. Makes me sad. I’m glad Dan’s there for them to reality check with.

Now they just need to blow all those minds a second time and get on with an honest life. If anybody stands by ‘em after that, THAT’S their family.