Comments

1

Kudos Dan. You understand relationships in and out of the bedroom (kitchen, garage, etc).

Been a big fan since the HF days (I just cant say or type it)

2

SIS, I am going to disagree with @Dan: be honest with your brother. Even in the best of circumstances, familial relationships can have tensions and difficulties, and the circumstances of your family, in particular, the fact that your mother was obligated to place her twins up for adoption, are hardly positive circumstances. Certainly your brother appreciates this fact. Indeed, the fact that his twin in not currently in the picture suggests that your brother is keenly aware that these circumstances are not typical or easily navigated.

SIS, I am not suggesting that you divulge everything to your brother. He does not need to know that you and your mother got into physical altercations, but being honest that you don't have the easiest relationship with your mother is something that he should be able to handle. Should you decide to be honest about your concerns, you might be able to stress your interest in deepening your relationship, and in meeting his wife, by making plans to see them in their hometown some time in the near future.

3

Kudos Dan! You know people in and out of the bedroom (kitchen, garage, tree, etc).

Been a huge fan since the HF days. Yeah, I cant say or type it.

4

I'm with Dan, being a grown up (even if you are the kid in the relationship) means doing unpleasant things with a smile on your face from time to time. I've had lots of practice at this with my parents who are forever irresponsible hippies.

5

How to put this nicely? One wonders, if the mom is not a bad person, why the relationship remains so fraught. Perhaps LW would benefit from some professional insight into her (?) own role in this dynamic?

6

"Female fan." So yes, her.

7

Kudos Dan++

If mom is not a bad person, try to go in with a better attitude and make the best of it. You can do that much SIS.

8

Shoot. I can't stay away (yet). L-dub eff your mom. She was, and it sounds like continues to be, abusive to you. Do not go to this meetup. Tell your brother the deal. He doesn't need the deets, just the broad strokes, plus your hope and desire that your relationship with your mom doesn't need to impact he and your mom's potential relationship. Then, arrange a separate time and place to meet up with him and his wife.

Be sure to tell him that under no circumstances is he to enable your mother to be there. She can't even know time and place. He's going up be filled with emotions over these reunions. He could easily decide it's a good idea to get you two together for a reconciliation. You gotta head that shit off at the pass. Good luck L-dub! And remember, it's your responsibility to protect yourself. No one else will.

9

I couldn't do that because I would view it as my mother trying to create an image in her head of her being a good mother and earning the respect and love that she has now at an old age. My mother is a cunt; a whore and likely far much worse things. Late in her life she has been trying to buy her salvation and I'm not going to give it to her.

I honestly don't know how you people do it with toxic parents; they'll act nice to you just so they can rope you back in to taking more from you.

If you don't understand; be thankful.

10

This is one where I definitely disagree with Dan. As someone who comes from a very toxic family I can relate to this letter, and I have a completely different take on things.

My advice: Talk to the sibling (on the phone ideally - this is something that shouldn't happen via email). Tell him, "There's something that's been giving me anxiety that I wanted to discuss with you."

Tell him everything that you said here - that you have a tumultuous relationship with your mother, and that you don't think it wise that you both attend the dinner. Be honest but politely vague about the situation. You don't have to tell him any details about you or your mother or assign blame or anything like that. Simply let him know that there is conflict between you and your mother, and that it's difficult for you to be in a room with her.

Let him know your concerns - that you don't want to taint their relationship in any way, that you are worried about not 'being yourself' in any meeting that includes both you and your mother. It's important that he understand that you have everyone's best interests at heart.

Only agree to attend the large group dinner if you feel that you can do so in a drama-free way while still being emotionally/psychologically safe. If not, then don't attend. You are under no obligation. Don't let anyone pressure you into something that doesn't feel safe for you.

Regardless of whether you attend or not, try to arrange to meet the brother before the dinner, perhaps for lunch on that same day (if you try to do it afterward, impromptu 'after dinner' plans with the mother could derail the meeting). If that won't work, try to arrange for the next day or at some other time during the trip. Make every effort to ensure you get your own special time with him.

You have every right to spend time with your brother and his wife without your mother being present. Your brother will likely be very understanding about the need for this, and it needn't interfere with any plans he has with the mother, nor need it interfere with his relationship with her. In any case, their relationship isn't your responsibility to caretake.

Good luck.

11

I wish I had had the energy to tell Dan why he is 100000% wrong on this, but he comes from a family where this type of relationship is inconceivable. He has no reason to know to do this, but this question should have been outsourced.

12

Also disagreeing with Dan here. Yes, you're not a teenager - that means you have choices you didn't have as a child, and you know yourself better than you ever have.

Coincidentally, your brother is also not a teenager. He's an adult, and he hopefully has had enough life experience to understand that you're setting boundaries for your own health. He may not understand; that's okay too, it isn't your burden. Your relationship will be informed by his skills, too. If he can't understand and can't respect your boundaries either, that's important to know.

I'd say don't go. The best case scenario is that you have an unexpected good time. That feels like a stretch, when the alternatives are much more likely and the impression you want to make is at stake.

13

As others have said, it's not a good idea to go. If it were just the LW's behavior that was the problem, this advice might makes sense. But it's her mother's behavior, too, and she has no control over that. If her mother can't promise to "suck it up" and be a grown up, too, then she needs to stay away from this. It would be better to establish a relationship with her brother separately. Since they are both adults, this seems like the appropriate thing to do. Her mother has her own relationship with her son. It's not the mother's business to interfere with the LW's relationship with her brother or establish a "family." They are not children.

I would tell my brother that I wanted to meet him, but didn't want to do it when my mother was present. If he asks why, I just say something vague, like, "I'd just feel more comfortable that way." Her mother may be angry, but so what? It's not her job to manage her mother's disappointment or whatever her mother may be feeling.

I come from a family dysfunctional family, and there's no way I would meet a sibling for the first time with my mother there. I'd want to establish a reasonably healthy, adult relationship with the sibling before I exposed them to the odd dynamics they'd surely pick up on, even if we were pretending to be perfectly "normal."

14

Oh ffs, Mom’s going to be on her best behavior in front of the new brother and his wife. What drama about two hours of your life. Especially since you say she’s not a bad person. And she lives in Ireland! It’s not like you have to see her everyday. Like Dan said, suck it up.

15

I'm with those in disagreement.

Don't go if you don't want to. In fact, if you haven't had an opportunity to see your mother and practice not letting her goad you into an argument, it's really not advisable. It took years of regular practice to break the pattern of fighting with my mother. I had to learn to keep my tone calm while I disagreed with her criticisms and to stay out of it when she tries to bait me into siding with her against my siblings. It was hard!

Tell your brother that you and mom have a tough relationship and you think you'll be distracted by it if both of you attend. Be warm and tell him to enjoy. Make a special trip to hang out with your brother without your mom there. Mom might have a fit but she'll get over it, you just have to remain steady.

And maybe, once you're ready, think about how you can improve your interactions with your mom so that eventually this situation can't repeat (maybe one day you'll meet the other twin!) You don't have to be close, but cordial.

16

Totally agree Dan. Really LW? You are an adult so behave like one. Your mother gave up two babies all those years ago, let her find some peace now thru this connection with her son, your brother, and you be gracious enough to be kind to all.

17

OK, I'm putting myself in the place of the long lost brother.

And if I got the call that people are advising the LW to make, I'd be very wary about having a relationship with these people. Saying you can't be in the same room with someone, for a somewhat special occasion, for a couple of hours, can't be brushed off with "Oh, we just don't get along". Not being able to suck it up and be civil over dinner isn't "don't get along", it's "this is a terrible person who has done terrible things to me that I can't condone by my presence".

This approach will colour the brother's future relationship with the mother - how could it not? Her daughter can't even stand to sit across a table from her and mostly converse with the other people at the table? That's a sign there is something badly badly wrong that he can't ignore.

LW needs to either suck it up and go, if mom truly is a good person and this is just personality clash - or not try to brush off whatever it is that makes the relationship so incredibly fraught with vague "don't get along" excuses, but give brother the information he might need to protect himself.

18

LW, ring your mother and offer a truce. Say you’ll meet with her and your brother and family for a meal out, or some specific outing. That both you and she can make it work so her son, your brother, isn’t alienated from the pair of you. Then the rest of your mother’s visit, tell her you’ll step back and let her visit with him. Don’t drag your brother into this.

19

I'm going to add my voice to the majority. Don't go, SIS.
It would be different if meeting your brother for the first time was only possible with your mother there, but you have already met him. You can meet his wife another time. I totally get that you don't want to be seen by your brother when your mother will be pushing your buttons.
I have to assume that you have made your own family (circle of friends), and have left your mother to the life she has made for herself. I'd leave her to it.

I read the parts about your mother's insisting that you all get together and doubt that she reached out to you to say that she wanted to make things better between you and her. That would have been encouraging. I would reconsider if I knew that she was honestly trying.

20

This is not Dan's beat, I'd ask Captain Awkward. And include more about what the thing is with your mother, because it's confusing.
Going seems really really optional, I'm not sure why you want to. If you go and are on eggshells he'll probably know something is wrong, so what's the point? Definitely have an escape plan if you go - you can still suddenly "get sick", who cares if Mom already knows you don't want to be there, it's brother everyone's trying to pretend for.

21

So SIS, you have a spectrum of views here on the matter. But you're going to have to go with your gut. That's the only way you can make the decision.

22

Ffs, this woman is trying to heal something with her son. This is not about the LW and here she is making it about her. What twenty seven yr old woman does get on with her mother? Most of it would be done out of duty. So do your duty LW. Give your Mother this time to repair with one of her given away babies and don’t you spoil it. It might be a chance for you to heal with your mother as well. A few hours/ days out of your life can mean so much to her, and help ease that young woman’s pain at carrying babies for nine months and then having to give them away.

23

She can form a relationship with her son just fine, and vice versa, without the LW in the room. Why does she want this big-happy-family performance that if she has any insight she knows is fake? I can think of reasons but none good.

You would have had more options if you had ducked non-specifically. Now you do have to go or talk to him about why not. But that doesn't have to be some big truth bomb that will Poison Their Relationship. Just tell him that you and she get along better at a distance than in the same room, etc. (If the truth is you actually can't stand her at a distance, leave that out for him... but think about what you even have with her?)

He's old enough to have learned a tense relationship doesn't always contain one or more assholes. And if he's not a person who ever learns that... well, then it's going to be hard for you to be close to him if he's close to your mother.

24

I'm on Team Don't Go.

Main thing I want to add to the discussion... Take a closer look at this sentence:

"I dislike her a lot and we fight all the time, in fact when I was a teenager we used to get into physical scraps."

An adult getting into physical scraps with a teenager? Pretty sure that's abuse.

For some reason Dan did not catch that and replied:

"Emphasize that your mother is not a bad person (quoting you there), which I hope means she wasn't emotionally or physically abusive or neglectful."

Sounds like LW is downplaying the abuse. While I'd guess LW (as an adult) has played a part in the relationship not working... A mom who abused you as a teen and who you STILL don't get along with is someone to stay away from.

25

I think Mother IS a bad person, and that's why the LW doesn't get along with her.

26

How is this a Dan question?
Regardless, I agree with the advice. I suspect Mum will be on her best behaviour when she's meeting Son, and SIS can do that too, for a couple of hours. If drinking makes things worse, go for a meal, but make an excuse to not go to the pub afterwards. SIS has met Brother, so she can warn him in advance of their dynamic and say that's why she's ducking out before either of them has a chance to start button-pushing. Tread on those eggshells and don't be yourself, for one meal. You'll have plenty of opportunities to hang out with Brother on your own.

27

Oh and if Mum does start pushing buttons, smile, get up and leave.

28

I’m in agreement with Dan here. If the LW and her mother are not estranged, and their relationship is not abusive (which I think LW would have said if that were the case), LW and her mom should be able to manage to be civil to each other for a couple of hours. Both mother and daughter have met the long-long son/brother before so it is not their first encounter. Even if the women end up sniping at each other, it could be illuminating for their new family member. Perhaps he is wondering what he missed out on, not being raised by this woman. A real family interaction might give him some insights... maybe he missed out, but maybe he and his twin got lucky. If they are all “getting to know” each other, to the point that they would consider each other “family,” he deserves to see them as a family, warts and all.
If I am misreading this situation and the mother is truly a danger to the daughter, either physically or mental-health-wise, my answer changes to bowing out of the meetup. But then LW should get some therapy, and/or look into Captain Awkward style methods of improving the relationship and setting appropriate boundaries. Both mother and daughter have met the new family member one-on-one before, so this one meeting doesn’t have to make or break the new relationships.

(My perspective: I am one of the lucky ones to have pretty decent relationships with my FOO, even so, I can recall instances of “physical altercations” in adolescence... my mother once slapped my sister in the height of her teenage rebellion years; my daughter once slapped me in a similar argument and I was afraid of her in that moment; neither of these relationships had a pattern of abuse and generally we get along. We have a pattern of verbal sparring and bickering that occasionally gets nasty. Perhaps I am blinded by familial love but I think this is all pretty normal. If someone were thinking of becoming a new family member, I would want him to see this dynamic so that he had a clear idea of what he was getting into. Maybe one visit would convince him to socialize with mother and sister separately, maybe it would open his eyes to want to have nothing to do with either of them. Most likely he will want to call his parents and thank them! But I think there is some value in letting him see the reality of his birth family for what it is.

29

"We used to get into physical scraps". What does that mean? Teenager goes to storm off. Mom stands in way. Push. Push. Fight? Who started these flights? Why LW, did you use the passive voice. To protect your abuser or because you were violent?

Or did you get hit for transgressions and started hitting back?

30

Thank goodness this didn't turn out to be another Westermark letter.

31

@29 Christopher J
Very interesting question.
Once I got my growth spurt, the next time my mom was about to hit me I reacted by raising my hand to block the blow, and she stopped in mid-swing. And never swung again.

32

It sounds like Dan's advice didn't really answer SIS's question, how to tell her brother that she won't be meeting up with him. I can sympathize with SIS's situation, what she said about her mom is in some ways like my relationship with my mom, although to a greater degree.

How do you convey this to your brother? Well, he should be able to understand having a strange and complicated relationship with your mother. You should also understand that he probably has quite a bit of baggage around this and is trying to work through it. How about sincerely wishing him and your mom well, saying you'd really like to hang around, but you aren't at the point with your mom that you can do this. Emphasize that she's a lovely person and that you do hope that at some point you all will be able to do those natural and nice things like getting together and enjoying each other's company, or at least not fighting. You should also really try to get to the point where you can be around your mom and both of you stay civil, because that's what adults do. Maybe arrange some time where just the two of you meet up during this trip. It sounds like your mother is already upset you're not joining them, you should discuss why and what would need to change so you all can next time.

33

I like Dan's advice--and I also like @2 Sublime's advice.

There's one thing not to do. Don't go into a four-person meeting with a heavy heart, thinking you'll make the best of it; rile your mother or get riled by her, and put on a shitshow for your newfound brother and his wife.

Perhaps SIS needs to decide whether she feels her mother was abusive towards her--uncaring, selfishly or unreasonably out-of-control--or whether she wouldn't go that far: she just considers their relationship to have a long legacy of difficulties, differences and cross-purposes. The letter makes it sound more like the second. They still speak on the phone. She still feels, to a degree, accountable for her mother's reactions to her. If her balanced view is that she and her mother just have a difficult, at times stormy relationship, then she should probably take Dan's advice--bite the bullet and make nice for the gathering.

As for her question as to the tactful way to speak to her brother to get out of meeting her mother ... the answer is 'honestly'. Honestly and straightforwardly. Say to her brother, 'my mother and I have a delicate relationship. I don't want either of us to show in a bad light the first time your wife meets us'. Even make a joke of it--'I don't want us to be at each other's throats'. This will be more than enough to get her out of the meetup if she decides she can't go.

Two other quick points I'd make are that, first, fractiousness between her and her mother wouldn't necessarily be the worst thing in the world from her brother and sister-in-law's viewpoint; it could eg help his wife understand where he got his temper from. Second, I'd like to think that her mother's finding her given-up son after all these years is a great opportunity for her--to see her mother anew and maybe more favorably, through the eyes of another.

34

LavaGirl @18 says it for me. Talk to mum and agree on a truce.

SIS and brother are both in the UK, while mammy is in Eire. The distances are not huge, and the road and rail systems are very good. SIS can visit with brother separately.

35

Where's the sex??? In any case, I don’t see why older brother needs younger sister around putting a show in order to establish relationships with bio mother. SIS can easily bail out, noting that it is likely to go better without her being around if asked.
If brother pushes for more details, she can explain this another time when the two of them meet. Who knows, he may even be more understanding once he meets bio.

36

@11. venn. Here I would either say 'he' or go for 'all the pronouns' ('she/he/they').

Someone calling themselves a 'heterosuckual' (or some punning variant thereof) is asking to be seen as straight. Yes, they suck cock--but they're straight. A self-proclaimed 'cross-dressing' guy is asking ordinarily to be taken as a man. But there's not an exact equivalence, in that his motivations for cross-dressing may be that they, or he, don't/doesn't entirely or normatively feel a man. (The read-across to the cocksucking het is blurry because he could also feel queer performing a gay sex act, besides feeling straight otherwise. Or he could be implying he's a heteroromantic. Many possibilities). This particular situation is confused further because we can only take the bf at the lw's description. Maybe the way he'd set up his own gender identity would be different?

/break/
In the third letter, the unprotected sex is more of a cause to dump than his going down on the third.

37

I really have to ask - if someone said to you "She's a lovely person but we can't be trusted to be civil to each other for a couple of hours" would you honestly be able to view those people in a positive light?

Because I would be thinking "Either there is WAY more to this story than you're telling me, or one or both of you have zero social skills and are really immature/self absorbed".

I have a sister who I could describe much as LW describes her mother in this letter. And while I don't go out of my way to spend time with her, I can behave myself when once in a blue moon we have to be in the same place. Because that's what adults do.

LW is making this meeting all about herself and her relationship with her mother, and that's not what it's about.

38

@22 Lava - did you used to get in fist fights with your kids, or did your mother with you? If not, does your experience w parent child relationships apply here?
The mom knows they are fractured and why and wants the daughter to play act a perfect relationship to further draw in the son, and also to ba able to condemn daughter in future to son if she steps out of line. Mom wants the parent child relationship she hasn't earned in the past w blank slate kid, and daughter wants to help. Depending on level of crazy or abuse that help may best be delivered by not being present. Some people are civil and throwing knives.

39

@25 Roseanne - there are positive reasons to get in physical fights w your children, all of them relate to wrestling them into an ambulance.

The question then is - do you invite your formerly violent out of control mentally ill child to visit w your new one? When you are absolutely a major and unrelenting trigger for her. Is that a good idea?

40

@28 squidg - the daughter is prioritizing mother's needs over her own here, maybe because she wants her mother to replace her w blank slate son. This would be ideal if mother is abusive. If mother is not abusive, mom should be able to walk on the most delicate of eggshells for this visit. If she doesn't, and daughter does (or doesn't) daughter wins, bc now she has a witness to mom's meanness, and sympathy. Brother distances self and learns not to interact with them both at same time. If Mom does, and daughter can't, bc trauma/PTSD/past harm/anger at having to lie about what their family dynamic really is, why does Mom invite daughter when she knows what will happen? Does Mom think fighting constantly is normal and fine? If so, why not just go and be as usual? Maybe tell Mom, I definitely won't be able to be civil, at all, but I'd be happy to come?

41

Hell, tell brother you won't be able to be civil at all. That way he's not surprised.

"We have a lot of baggage, things were stressful, I don't see her very much as a result and this is pretty high stakes so I'm worried it'll go sideways. Do you still want me to come? I can't promise things will go entirely smoothly and I want you to have nothing but good interactions with my mom."

42

"with our mom"

43

Subtext, which I would not include:
"with our mom, because I know what it's like to not have that."

44

Leave the brother out of it, if she doesn’t go make up an excuse for him. Mother won’t speak the truth.
This man is bringing his wife, his family, to meet his birth mother. Don’t turn it into something it doesn’t have to be. It’s about him and her, you LW, either be a kind and gracious woman or leave town that week. There is still a child your mother hasn’t met. Some psychodrama in your brother and family’s face is not going to encourage his sibling to reach out. This is not about you.

45

I am the daughter of a mother who puts on a great public face. She's was horrible to me in private, better to boys, so it took a long time for my brothers to put together what I'd been through. My mother and I are able to be in the same room. It took me a lot of therapy to get to that place. It still drives me crazy when relatives tell me how lucky I am to have my wonderful mother. I do a lot of teeth gritting and words swallowing. I know that if I were to tell them what she's really like, I would come out looking awful.

I'm not adopted, but I have enough friends who are and have read enough to know that adopted children tend to idolize their birth mothers. Only a few in the absence of information invent a story that their mother abandoned them out of meanness and not wanting them. Far more will concoct a story of a perfect mother who sacrificed a great treasure and who would have been a fabulous mother to them if not for the cruel society. This is natural. It's hard to imagine your mother as a mentally ill child abuser.

I know what it is to desperately want allies, to want to be understood. I know what it is to want that ally more than anything from an actual sibling. It still burns me that my brothers put all the blame on me for whatever friction I have with my mother. I wouldn't call it exactly intentional, but it does come to me as the worst of all possible gaslighting. I understand that their positions of privilege rest on the back of not acknowledging the way their sister was abused. (Drat! I was about to move on to my conclusion but got sidetracked by more ranting. It's a hard subject for me to let go of. Sorry.)

SIS-- Here's what you do. Don't go. Make a slight excuse of the "can't make it" kind. If pressed, stick to your guns. It's not convenient, something came up. Continue to write or email or text or skype with this brother, but stop the moment it hurts you too much. Remember, a short while ago you didn't even know he existed. Meanwhile, seek support groups and therapy for help coping. This won't necessarily be easy since even therapists tend to take the personally disordered parent's side at first. You'll need to be upfront about what you're looking for in a therapist initially. I was lucky that my first therapist knew that I couldn't be as depressed as I was if my mother was as perfect as I was painting her to be. That therapist asked why I kept defending my mother, asked why I kept saying she wasn't that bad when it was getting more obvious to her that she was that bad. (And there I go ranting again. Sorry.) Or read up on having a narcissistic mother.

Granted, learning to get to the point where your buttons aren't pushed at every turn is a worthwhile thing, but that's graduate work. For right now, avoid your triggers.

46

@5 "One wonders, if the mom is not a bad person, why the relationship remains so fraught."
@23 "Why does she want this big-happy-family performance that if she has any insight she knows is fake?"
@24 "Sounds like LW is downplaying the abuse."
@25 "I think Mother IS a bad person, and that's why the LW doesn't get along with her."
@38 "The mom knows they are fractured and why and wants the daughter to play act a perfect relationship to further draw in the son, and also to ba able to condemn daughter in future to son if she steps out of line."

Wow, so many assumptions that the mother is just completely horrible, manipulative, and even abusive. My own mother angrily disowned me a few years ago for an imagined slight, and, frankly, I am happy to stay away for my own mental health. Despite that, I wouldn't describe my mother as a bad person. She simply has her ways, and I have mine. Neither of us are completely right or wrong, we're just two people who view things differently and clash on some very fundamental issues. We probably would have just gone our separate ways long ago, if not for the accident of our being closely related.

And that is why I agree with those who say suck it up and be an adult for a couple of hours, this isn't about SIS. I say this especially in light of the fact that I recently went to a dinner with lots of dysfunctional personalities and tons of potential for drama (how much potential, you ask? I've walked out of similar dinners in outrage at least three times in the last couple of years). You know what happened? Absolutely nothing. Everyone stayed civil because no one wanted to be the asshole who broke the fragile peace we'd all finally managed to build, especially since we were out in public.

And that's exactly what I suspect would happen at this meal. It is, first and foremost, a chance for SIS's mom to get to know her long-lost son, and so most of their conversation will probably be with each other. Son's wife and SIS are secondary players here, albeit important ones that both Mom and Son would benefit from having around. Nothing's more awkward than two strangers dining together and running out of things to talk about.

Of course, I could be wrong, and SIS's mom really is horrible and she should stay away. Dinner plans with some of my relations certainly turned out to be a kind of bait-and-trap, more than once. But only SIS knows if it really is that bad and her mom can't be trusted to act like a proper human being.

Also @23 "He's old enough to have learned a tense relationship doesn't always contain one or more assholes."
Judging from the comments here, this is hardly a given. If SIS is worried about coming off as that asshole, then it's in her best interests to just go to the dinner and let him be the judge. Otherwise, Brother will only hear one explanation as to why she didn't want to come, and it won't be the one where Mom is the asshole.

47

@ 28 "Brother distances self and learns not to interact with them both at same time."

You're right about distancing himself, but what he would really learn is not to interact with LW certainly, and possibly either of them, anymore. Far too much drama with no background of caring for these people - he'll just back away.

Because not being able to be in the same room for a few hours with someone for a special occasion without fighting, absent serious abuse (which, remember, the LW does NOT say happened, no matter what kind of scenarios people are making up about it) is a sign of major dysfunction.

Dan talks a lot about showing good judgement when dating, and I think it also applies to this situation. Saying "I can't have dinner, in a group, with my mother, without fighting" to someone you barely know but with whom you'd like to have an ongoing relationship, shows bad judgement. We're willing to enter these waters with people we already care for, because we also know their good qualities, but when one of the few things you know about a person is that they are unable to behave themselves civilly even for a short time, you're not going to bother getting to know any more.

48

And about those physical encounters during adolescence.

There's a wide spectrum that fits the LW's account - could be extremely troubling, or could be nothing.

If mom's behaviour was on the "extremely troubling" end, then LW is right in not wanting a relationship with her, but also, I think, owes brother the truth about what is going on. For his own sake, if nothing else.

But it also could be nothing. I had two physical incidents with my own daughter - once I slapped her (and was appalled at myself, even though she doesn't even remember the incident) and once she beat against my chest with closed fists when she was in a teenage frenzy. We have a very good relationship now - she's in her late twenties - and had a pretty good one even when she was a teen. But the teenage years are difficult for everyone, and sometimes people behave badly in the moment.

I"m not saying that mom is not a stone bitch - she probably is. I'm not saying that LW is wrong to keep her distance from her mother in the normal course of events - she's probably right. Some people are bad parents without being bad people, and those who survived that bad parenting have every right to protect themselves and build their own families. But none of this is what LW asked about.

She does not want to destroy her mother's relationship with new brother, and doesn't want to destroy her own relationship with him. I'm with Dan, that the way to do that is to show him that she is capable of sucking it up when necessary, so that later she can more reasonably let him know that she would prefer it not be necessary very often.

"I really can't take too much of her, not more than once a year or so" is a statement many people can identify with, about certain relatives. "I can't be with her at all without fighting" is not.

49

I don’t know agony, my mother and I had a combative relationship, we would constantly have disagreements. I still knew to leave that all alone when others were about, a special dinner was on with non intimate people.
Why do you still fight with your mother LW? She tell you what to do, comment negatively on your clothes? Hasn’t got the memo that she needs to adjust her relationship to you now you are both adults?
/If the LW’s mother was a total wipe out, the letter wouldn’t have been written. There is affection here, because the LW knows how important this meeting is to her mother. /
Your brother is Blood, LW, he still hasn’t had his life with your mother. His experience of her will be different to yours. However you proceed, don’t contaminate the space for them.

50

This could be an opportunity LW, for you to reset boundaries with your mother. I suggest you ring her and do a deal. That she treats you respectfully at these meetings with your brother and family. No comments on .. whatever it is she comments on.. that you are now an adult and you want her to treat you as such. That if she breaks this deal, if she can’t hold her tongue, then you will make up some excuse to leave the gathering. A bad headache has just come on, or stomach cramps.

51

Ms Fichu - It's amazing what some people don't or won't see. I recall how many of her friends were shocked - shocked! to learn that my mother had a drinking problem.

52

"I still knew to leave that all alone when others were about, a special dinner was on with non intimate people. "

Exactly. It's a basic social skill.

So many of the commenters here are saying, essentially, that showing brother that LW does not have that skill will have no effect on his relationships with LW and her mother, and I think that's highly unrealistic.

53

Our narration is unreliable and/or missing crucial information. People don't escalate from zero to screaming matches and physical altercations without at least one person involved being a serious asshole. Cristopher J notes what the passive voice obscures @29.

Is the info missing because SIS is minimizing her own bad bevahior, and now looking to engineer a situation where these new people won't see her for the asshole she is, that she can't help being around her mother? Or is mom actually not such a good person after all, rather is constantly critical, controlling, mean, etc. such that she needles SIS until she can't help but snap? (In which case, SIS may be minimizing mom's abusive behaviors because she doesn't recognize them, they're normal to her, gaslighting, etc.) There are VERY different strategies for coping with the different possibilities, and not all of them make actually hanging out advisable.

If SIS is the (primary) asshole, then not inflicting herself on people may be advisable if self control isn't possible, though I would suggest trying self control (and maybe having new people she doesn't want to alienate can motivate her where just hanging around mom doesn't).

If mom is the (primary) asshole, setting boundaries/expectations explicitly and holding her to them (and being ready to leave with apologies to New Brother and his wife) might be worth a try, but if SIS has tried and knows it won't work, then avoidance is a good idea.

That can also work if they're both the asshole, but SIS is willing to put in the extra work to cease in this context. If she does opt for avoidance - she can have seperate relationships with different adults if she wants/beneds to do so - she should explain this to New Brother in a forthright, non-blaming fashion ("I" statements etc.), declining to hang out as a group and making plans with New Borther and his wife alone. She can't simultaneously avoid mom and have a happy blended family with everyone together, so she needs to realistically assess what's possible, not just what she wishes were true, and opt for the course most likely to give her an outcome that avoids fisticuffs.

@22: "What twenty seven yr old woman does get on with her mother?" A majority of my female friends in their mid-late twenties. Admittedly, some of them aren'3t super close, but screaming matches and physical fights aren't exactly normal or healthy.

@24: "An adult getting into physical scraps with a teenager? Pretty sure that's abuse." It can be, but plenty of teenagers are stronger than their parents (I was - my dad is taller than me, but he had me old, and I played sports, so at 16 I could easily have beaten either of my parents in a fight if we had a wildly dysfunctional relationship where that would ever have happened), and they are agentic.humans who.are perfectly capable of being abusive aggressors. We're misisng crucial information, as noted; we can't actually assume it's not SIS who is the abusive aggressor, though it is significntly less likely.

@35: Sex AND relationship advice; this is advice on a type of relationship, that with several family members.

54

"beneds" = needs; I avoid awkward auto-correction at the cost of missing typos before I hit "post".

55

51-Mr. Venn-- I remember thinking it would be easier if my mother had an actual drinking problem. I thought that if I could say "my mother drinks" I'd get all the understanding. Being in a position of trying to explain "she cuts me down in a thousand ambiguous ways that might be funny, might be sarcastic, one of which might be a mistake, but it adds up to death by a thousand cuts, and she's so unreliable she might as well be drinking except she passes it off as humorous absent mindedness, and I'd always be the victim of not being able to count on her, and I can't expect every parent to like all my friends, but she makes little cutting remarks, mere observations really, about everyone I brought home, everyone I could trust, until I realized in therapy that I was better off trusting everyone she hated and hating everyone she liked ..." You get the idea. Another rant. Sorry.

56

To those saying LW should be able to just suck it up.

I bet she's tried that.

Let's discuss the reality we are given, ok?

57

Fichu, thank you for explaining to those who do not get it. Sympathy does not increase among the uninitiated when you say "my mother drinks", it increases sympathy for the mother, not you. The initiated already get you so no need to persuade. Not drinking honestly makes it worse, by a lot, and should grant you more sympathy.

Lovely women - to others. That's deliberate.

58

I just don't see the point of advice saying she should be able to suck it up for an hour. The question is whether she and her mother can. How many meetings have they tried in the past year and how many have gone well? She's got to make a judgment call what will work, and whether it signals she's immature or whatever else, that's really irrelevant to how this affects her brother.

If history indicates it will likely go poorly, she's doing her brother and mother a favor by not having them meet in a clusterfuck.

59

And unless the LW is completely hallucinating, why does her mother want this big happy family performance with her daughter. She and her daughter have not gotten along like that in recent history, maybe ever. She... just glosses over that? Or thinks the power of Family Voltron will mend all?

Unless the LW is completely making up how badly these meetings go, the mother is risking her son running for the hills, and the reason is she wishes really hard it weren't so.

Narcissism is possible. Also possible, strong romantic belief in Family Voltron's powers.

60

58- Mtn.Beaver-- Right. Telling someone in SIS's position to suck it up is a little like telling someone with post traumatic stress not to duck for cover when they hear a door slam. It would be great if they could, but the reality is that they probably can't.

For those wondering if SIS herself is at fault. That's a possibility. With everything having to do with psychology, there's going to be a complex interplay of action, reaction, responsibility, and blame. Ultimately, however, she has to take care of herself and not make things worse while she works on creating a world and situation around herself that works for her. If that means not putting herself in a highly charged situation with her mother for a while, then she does that.

61

@60 fichu - as a practical matter it does not matter if it's the LW's fault. If it is, it is unkind of the mother to invite her, and stupid to get mad at her for not coming. You try to set your kids up for success, I'm told.

62

There are a number of Reality TV shows like this, the most notable being "Long Lost Family". It always seems like the parent(s) and the adopted kid are super excited / relieved to find each other, but the associated siblings are more reserved. I've had cousins turn up after not hearing from them for years... nice... but honestly I don't see a relationship developing.

63

@53 quality parents don't raise kids who physically fight with them as teenagers.


Please wait...

Comments are closed.

Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.


Add a comment
Preview

By posting this comment, you are agreeing to our Terms of Use.