Comments

1

I don't understand people like the "single/alone" complainer. You.already.know.the.distinction. Why do you need someone else to abide by it?

Regarding ITAT: Gender is just a construct.

Regarding the advice given to SHORT: What other disadvantages should be tell people to "get over"? I'm going to copy and paste that response whenever anyone complains about their status. Something tells me folks won't like it - and I don't understand what Dan thinks he's doing by publishing that response - it's certainly not for SHORT's benefit, and IMO it highlights how little consideration is given to the feelings of certain people. Not an ounce of empathy or compassion there.

2

Alone and lonely are two different concepts. Alone is fine.

Here's an example in context: I've been single for almost ten years, I live alone, but I rarely feel lonely because I have the love of my friends.

3

I'm glad someone emailed Dan about the childbirth thing in addition to the multiple people who mentioned it in the comments (so it could make it into the round-up). I'm surprised he doesn't pull from the comments more often for the round-ups, especially when there are good points made there that no one emails to him. C'est la vie.

4

Frankly, childbirth scares the shit out of me. For reasons like rectovaginal fistulas. * Shivers * As a consequence, I don't know if I have the gonads (so to speak) to reproduce. (I also literally may not have the gonads -- I may or may not be infertile. But whatever.) I'll never have the money, but my ideal scenario if I'm going to biologically propagate my genes would be to hire a surrogate to carry my egg + some fucking sperm to term.

5

Are elective C-sections a thing? I would genuinely rather have surgery than give birth. I just know too much about it. Maybe it's a good thing right now any pregnancy on my part would have to be immaculate conception.

6

Although if evolution keeps increasing the fucking size of the human skull (which is possible now that we've eliminated the selective pressure against giant headed babies), C-sections are going to be the only way anyone will be able to reproduce. Maybe religious nuts who don't believe in modern medicine will diverge into their own species due to refusing C-sections and a lack of gene flow between them and outgroups.

7

LIT – Glad you came back to your senses, you seemed like a sensible person all along. As some who have been there pointed out, Japan is a bubble for underage female sexual attraction/admiration that is not only inappropriate, but can also get you in trouble elsewhere. Not to mention the harm done to the girls.
P.S. Yes, love the one you with.

8

My big issue with the SJW scene is that the majority of it is mostly online and used in a knee-jerk fashion. I've seen it used in real life in a meaningful way, but that is becoming, sadly, increasingly rare. People take incredible stands with their typing fingers, but the number of people that they are actually helping - I don't know.

I guess... I wish my rapist had told me a rape joke instead of raping me, you know? My rapist never talked like that. Spoke very kindly and was very nice. I wonder if that's why he slipped past the radar? How many truly awful people are slipping past the SJW crowd because they're so enamored with words over actions? If words are the the major barometer for whether the overwhelmingly white, angry, liberal, online Colosseum judges you to be a good person or not, then people like Bill Cosby should get a thumbs up, right? I mean, he never told a rape joke. Not one. What a decent sort he turned out to be.

I know what one says matters, but what is in a person's heart matters just as much. Maybe it's time to go after real criminals and leave the comedians alone.

9

@5: They are, but apparently studies show that the baby misses out on critical fluids from the mother's vaginal flora that fortifies the body to fight autoimmune disorders.

10

SJWs don't need to worry about alt-right sociopaths, they never have and never will care about what you are working for. What they need to worry about is all the people who mostly agree with them who are also driven away by their lack of humor, self awareness or just being pleasant. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and unassailable moral superiority attracts those with a desire to dominate others.

11

Anal sex works well for some women, some of those women are Catholic, and some of those women were not not enthusiastic about having vaginal sex without contraception, however much they otherwise enjoyed sex. Given that, it seem quite likely that there were Catholic couples that routinely opted for anal sex, rather than risk an additional pregnancy. Then, as now, people talk, so this was the sort of thing that would be an open secret. It seems to make sense that true believers like ITAT’s grandmother might spread anal sex horror stories as a way to make sure this practice didn’t undermine the Church’s doctrinal positions around sex.

12

Calliope @5, yes, elective C-sections are a thing. Not sure how it works in America but in the UK, women can schedule their deliveries with a C-section, which got some people mocking them for being "too posh to push." I agree with you, the entire concept of pregnancy and childbirth is just horrifying.

Lilo @8, that's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If you do actually go donating to charities or helping people in need, you'd best not ever mention it because that's "virtue signaling." So there's no way to know who's walking the walk versus talking the talk. I'm sorry you were raped by a Dr Jeckyll type -- that you were raped at all. That puts me in mind of men who go around loudly proclaiming to be feminists as a chat-up line. The real feminist men prove it by their deeds.

13

@5 and @12 I don't think any decent OB-gyn in the US would let you schedule an elective C-section without a legitimate medical reason. C-sections have a higher risk of maternal complications, require twice the length of hospitalization, and make it really difficult to care for your newborn because you have, you know, a surgical incision across the middle of your abdomen. And having one makes it very likely you'll need another with a second pregnancy (which is what happened to me). It really shouldn't be anyone's first choice.

14

Calliope @ 6 - "Although if evolution keeps increasing the fucking size of the human skull (which is possible now that we've eliminated the selective pressure against giant headed babies)"

Really? You seem to overlook the fact that the vast majority of pregnancies (and therefore births) in the world occur in places where people don't have the luxury of top-notch obstetrics care. They very often don't even have the luxury of contraception, which is why there are so many pregnancies in those places. So it's a tad early to hail the disappearance of that selective pressure.

15

@14 Ricardo
"overlook the fact that the vast majority of pregnancies (and therefore births) in the world occur in places where people don't have the luxury of top-notch obstetrics care...So it's a tad early to hail the disappearance of that selective pressure."

But a selective pressure release here could result in the first world being a place where people have bigger heads, which would be funny in the USA where we're already big-headed in the sense of egotistical.

17

Curious @ 15 - Yes, it would indeed be very funny. I just have this image of a whole nation of wobbly-headed people bumping their head everywhere. Now there's a high concept you could sell to Hollywood!

That said, it would only last a while (the funniness of it). Since US companies control a huge chunk of the world media and, consequently, of how people are represented therein, I'm pretty sure bigheaded people would soon become the norm in terms of beauty standards, and then all normal-headed people would develop an inferiority complex, and we'd have quack plastic surgeons offering head-padding surgery to people who can't afford it all over the world.

Cocky @ 16 - I'm quite convinced many doctors willingly agree to do a C-section to anyone who even merely inquires about it, whether there's a medical need or not, simply because it pays more. It appears ethics, medical or otherwise, are just a set of rules one has to learn to circumvent when their personal gain is at stakes; see this last week's impeachment hearings for more examples.

18

@6, 14-17, re big heads, the putative lessening of selective pressure for big heads would require an isolated population for it to catch on, no? And the U.S.A. isn't that. Yet, anyway.

19

@4 Rectovaginal fistulas are practically unknown in the developed/wealthy world. You would never be in labor long enough to develop one and, if you somehow did, it would be corrected via surgery. In fact, they are SO unknown, that, when an OB went to Africa and encountered them, they had to study 19th century texts to figure out how to treat them. Essentially, good nutrition, maternal age, and decent medical treatment has rendered the fistula a condition of extreme poverty.

20

@16 Medical necessity encompasses much more than you probably assume it does (eg, my first C-section was necessary due to stalled labor- and my second was necessary mostly because the first was a C-section). Once you've had one C-section, your subsequent births are very likely to require one, because of the risk of uterine hemorrhage- so it's a self-perpetuating phenomenon.

The other main issue is that OB-gyns practice "defensive medicine" because they're terrified of being sued- and a C-section is safer for the baby, although higher risk for the mother and much more expensive.

But yes, the high rate is exactly why there's been a push to limit it to medical necessity. I've never heard of anyone (recently) getting a C-section for any other reason.

21

Isn't the rate of c-section birth in Brazil something like 50%?

22

My friend gave birth a few years ago, and she and her mother (who is a doctor) asked for a C-section because of the size of the baby (he was a very big one) and the fact that she was an older first-time mom (over 35). The doctors refused to schedule it, insisting on a natural birth. As it is, she had a C-section after 37 hours of labor.

I do think there was a while when it was considered easier/fashionable/whatever, but there seems to have been a strong pushback against that (for good reasons, I think, immunities and all thtat), which is now making it quite hard to get one unless you are known to need it for medical reasons. (Although as rafibomb says, once you've had one, all future pregnancies will likely require one, which may contribute to the high numbers.)

23

Huh, since no one else has mentioned it, I'm just gonna say that not all play-parties appreciate "tourists" - especially ones that the other people at the party don't know, so if you're just going there to watch, make sure it's the sort of place that's into that.

Re: Sportlandia @1's "What other disadvantages should be tell people to "get over"?" Well, anything else that they're using as an excuse to ignore the actual issues in their lives and hate on others?

24

Traffic @23, Sporty has been banned. So he won't be able to bite my head off for pointing out that he should add "empathy" to the list of words he doesn't understand -- a 5'4" man can have nothing BUT empathy for a 5'7" one.
And he's taking that LW to task for telling SHORT to "get over it" -- but scroll up just two paragraphs and you see Sporty himself telling the LW who made the point about single not meaning alone to get over it. Hmm. I agree with that LW -- "I'm not in a relationship, therefore I'll die alone" is a false dichotomy that needs challenging wherever it appears, for the sake of the mental health of single people everywhere.

25

Ricardo @14 I did consider that as a factor when writing my comment, but I was making a joke about the ultra-religious becoming their own species, and figured it wasn't necessary to include. Every year more people have access to modern medical care than the year before, and if that trend continues for a few hundred years and the whole fucking system doesn't just collapse (which does have a good chance of happening if the super long-term fate of every major dominant culture in history and climate change have anything to say about it), eventually the entire human population would have that selective pressure relieved. Even if some populations remained without good medical care, sufficient gene flow between populations would muck that up. It's a somewhat ridiculous hypothetical, but humans are still evolving, just in much weirder ways now that for billions of people we've relieved so many of the things that were selective agents for basically all of evolutionary history.

...

I was mostly kidding when I asked about elective C-sections. I'm not sure I was expecting a real answer, but thank you to everyone for actually taking me seriously. I'm probably just going to wind up adopting kids when I'm in a position to be a parent, but I'm sure if I do decide to reproduce I can get over my hangups.

I was born via emergency C-section (brought on by fetal distress). It turns out my umbilical cord was wrapped around my neck three times. 200 years ago I would have been strangled during delivery and my mother would have probably bled to death trying to deliver. I was her first child, and she actually managed a successful vaginal delivery of my brother two years later (against the doctors' advice). She's a classical flutist (this will become relevant in the next sentence). When they were trying to convince her to have a second C-section, her response was, "I can do it! I'm a wind player!"

26

BDF@24: Banned? Well, go figure. He was very obnoxious for a very long time.

27

Yes Fan, Sportlandia has gone. Oh dear. Bye Sportlandia, take care of yourself and others.

28

If the past is any guide, we'll see Sportlandia back again tomorrow. I think his un-banning (like Spam reports) is just awaiting action on the next weekday.

More importantly, does anyone know where EmmaLiz is?

29

@25 Oh yes, I find it equal parts fascinating and terrifying to contemplate how I probably would've died in childbirth had I lived 100 years earlier. Although I also couldn't have gotten pregnant without the help of modern medicine, so... Yeah, we've pretty much broken natural selection.

30

Calliope @ 25 - "I was making a joke about the ultra-religious becoming their own species"

If you ask me, they already are. And unfortunately, it's no laughing matter for the rest of us.

31

@27: Um, how can you tell? Was there a "Sportlandia has hereby been banned" edict I missed from Index Newspapers LTD?

32

@28: EmmaLiz is currently touring, according to her agent.

33

His profile has gone raindrop. From that one assumes he’s no longer with us. Was it the missing post to Ricardo which tipped the balance? You had to be there raindrop. Sportlandia lost it once too often. Just like my ex husband.

34

Now I demand the family’s small compound is an Anger free zone, or take a hike.

35

Muse no worries re big headed babies, because during birth the hips ect loosen and after birth some women have wider hips. So we’ll have wobbly headed humans and super wide hipped women.

36

Etc, not Ect. funny.
Muscles around the hips loosen, it’s quite miraculous Muse and flamin painful as. Best way to birth is upright/ crouching Not lying on a bed. Gravity can help here! The body goes into auto drive and you’re just along for the ride.

37

Maybe curious, re banning. I think he’s done his dash.

38

Yes Muse, my daughter had the cord around her neck too, the midwife checked her neck as her head was crowning, and straight after birthing, they rushed her off to check her. I was like what’s happening. Scary. She was fine, and now is a mother herself.

39

The midwife unhooked the cord from her neck while she was still inside me, very skilfully. Wonder people, some midwives.

40

@38 LavaGirl
"I think he’s done his dash."

Because he hasn't leapt back under similar usernames like some of the other six times this happened in the last month? Maybe, but I think he just figures like I do that it's temporary. (Though I can't imagine him reading these thread about him silently.)

OTOH, I may not have seen @84; if it was worse all the other times, all his foul and racist and misogynist language and talk about people putting shotguns to their heads, it musta been a doozy.

Hey LG, I forget, how were you with him calling you an 'uppity lady' given that the premise of that 'uppity' is that it's target is inferior purely for being female and should thus stay in her lower place and be subservient(1)?

That earned him a place in the Misogynism Hall of Fame.

(1) As I documented at https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2019/11/20/42052980/her-partner-is-chronically-ill-and-shes-going-crazy/comments/84

41

I didn’t see the comment curious, and remember I am Australian so uppity doesn’t have the same connotation for me as it does for you. I don’t much hear it used. Just means stuck up themselves here, or yes a bit above their station.
I’ve been called much worse, curious. Anger makes people say dumb things, anger makes people look and say ugly things.

42

Even if Sportlandia does come back, it’s best to treat him like the tantrum throwing child he is and ignore him. He’ll either learn to be an adult all the time or get bored because nobody will bite and he’ll go off somewhere else to express that chip on his shoulder. Maybe he’ll go play a sport.. seeing it’s part of his name.

43

@5/CalliopeMuse: If you are still reading, cesarean sections have been an widely overused procedure in the United States vis-a-vis other advanced nations based on the rates at which c-sections have been performed and the outcomes for mothers and babies. Moreover, hospitals and doctors have a financial incentive to perform a surgical procedure as they can bill insurers for this procedure, while earning this money in less time. I have a friend who did an academic report on this practice and found that hospitals in certain California jurisdictions often bullied mothers and their partners by using (or threatening) legal process. Since judges in California are elected, hospitals can donate to their election campaigns, so judges are likely to follow the interests of their donor hospitals. Since hospitals are repeat players in this process, as opposed to mothers and their partners who likely only have one to three births, hospitals are vastly more equipped to use pressure to get mothers to agree to c-sections. Lastly, my friends who are surgeons all have a low opinion of the surgical skill of OBGYNs who perform c-sections.

44

SublimeAfterglow @43 Thanks for the info. (I am indeed aware of the overuse of C-sections in the U.S.) I was mostly kidding when I asked that question (see the second half of @25). I didn't really expect anyone to take it seriously for whatever reason. I need to remember that tone doesn't translate in text.

45

@43 It's a tricky situation, because any OB-gyn who encounters complications during delivery and doesn't push a C-section opens themselves up to potential malpractice claims. The readiness of doctors to jump to a C-section is based largely on the idea that they're far more likely to get sued for not intervening enough than they are for an intervention that may not have been necessary. Generally the impact of malpractice suits on US medical practice is overstated, but OB is probably the area where it has the biggest effect.

46

Oy, vey iz mir! I have an organic chemistry test tomorrow morning and I think it's going to kill me. I know basically all of us are atheists here, but could you pray for me anyway? I could use some good vibes. >_<

47

I'm kidding, of course, about the prayer. I'm just trying to find something to do to procrastinate studying, including making comments here. Just ignore me...

48

Are any of you telepathic, and if so, can you feed me the answers tomorrow? >_<

49

@48/CallipoeMuse: Sorry, I studied physics.

@45/rafibomb: Your thesis doesn't explain why hospitals would seek judicial intervention to force or coerce women to undergo c-sections quickly. Moreover, c-sections are a surgical procedure, and all surgical procedures have some risk of complications. I would also add that some OBGYNs have a reputation for being cagey during the months before a woman's due date about their philosophical approach to determining whether a c-section is necessary. There will always be an issue of professional judgment, but even within the profession, there is a realization that too many c-sections have been preformed in the U.S.

50

Re: alone vs. single
We could go one more meta step and ask why we even need these words in the first place. We're all born single. I don't see why we can't take singlehood as the default, and only require partnered people to have an adjective. I say the same for "atheist" and "feminist" -- the people who aren't in those categories should have special labels, not the ones in those categories.

I keep reading "aromantic" as "aromatic." : - ) Maybe a different word for lazy readers like me?

51

1/3 of all births in the U.S. are C-section.
1/2 of all pregnancies in the U.S. are accidental.

Put the stats together and what you get is a national and humanitarian disgrace, the intersection of: sex negativity, ignorance, embedded misogyny, and systematic medical malpractice.

52

It’s not men’s business, birthing. In Australian Aboriginal culture, it’s secret women’s business. There’s also secret men’s business.. Why do men want to involve themselves in birthing, that was always my question.
One of my births, it was only men there. My Dr and my husband. I was crouching, holding onto something, one man either side.. the Dr could see the wave of a contraction going across my belly.. so he says, ‘you’re having a contraction.’ I just looked at him, thinking, ‘Really mate, I would never have known.’ They did well though, and together birthed my third child.

53

Of course I did the birthing, they helped deliver.
Women are older now having their first baby, as ciods @22 mentions. This must have something to do with the number of C-section deliveries.

54

Black Kohosh, a Nth American herb, used by the indigenous people, can help start labour, so the first stage is a more gradual process, over the last few weeks of pregnancy. Might be something older pregnant women could look into.

55

LavaGirl @52 I have nothing against male OB/GYN's, but I could never have one as my doctor. First of all, I get embarrassed around men in general. Pretty much all my doctors are women except for my cornea specialist. (It's just my eyes. Somehow less embarrassing.) Second, I've always felt that a (biologically) male OB/GYN is like a car mechanic who doesn't drive, you know?

56

Probably prejudiced of me. Oh, well. My feelings really are mostly just a gut reaction to be embarrassed around men, though -- nothing I can control.


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