Am I first to comment?

For the woman in the similar situation to LASS: can the couple separate the baby making from the performance anxiety issues? Maybe it would help to have him supply sperm samples for artificial insemination. That would take the pressure off of them in the short term to have to perform PIV sex. Then they could work on other aspects of sex, as Dan suggested.

You lost me at he kills bugs, traditional feminine feminist. What bugs we talking. Spiders are our friends. Some of them. Opening jars is a traditional masculine behaviour?
Sorry to read you and the escort couldn’t sort it, LW, and thanks for the thanks.
A Dan’s Team Member.

Too right Dan, these weirdos are as valid as anyone. Freedom of expression for all.

"Expend" -- clearly typo, not pun.

Questions for Commenter 1:
WHY are you trying to have a baby with this man instead of dumping him already?
Why have you not figured out that you could take it in turns: he gets rushed PIV for his hard cock, then next time he gives you lots of foreplay and oral sex and if his dick doesn't get hard, too bad, he waits until next time when it's his turn again?
Why did this early sexual encounter make him feel extremely guilty, but he's feeling none of the guilt he should be about disappointing his wife time after time?
Why are you settling for this? Trust me, you can meet a new love of your life and make new friends. Even in your late 30s. SMH. PLEASE do not bring another kid into the world only to teach them that one-sided relationships are normal.

Mouzel: Why not required listening for, say, 14 and up?

Dan and Last Commenter: Thank you for the timely reminder that not everyone is hurt by traditional gender roles. Many just happen to align naturally with these roles and if they do, that is fine.

Uh, comment typed before I read comment 4. Thank YOU for the timely reminder of why so many of us can't help but see traditional masculinity as toxic. Oy. (Applying a heavy smack with the clue stick: loved and well-adjusted children are proof of mothers' contribution to society. Sorry yours was abusive. Get some therapy.)

"Expend" was…
[1] …a typo for "extend"
[2] …a typo for "expand"
[3] …a clever portmanteau of the two
[4] …"expand" with a Russian accent*

*Has Dan been hacked? Or is he a Russian sleeper agent?

I think the traditionally feminine housewife does a fantastic job of explaining traditional masculinity and femininity. Broad generalisations about very large groups of people are about useful as astrology in guessing any individual person’s skills, abilities or personality traits - I’m Shakespeare wouldn’t think the liberal arts, humanities and literature unmasculine, (nor would the many, many male historians in that traditionally male dominated discipline), while Ada Lovelace might have something to say about the superiority of men’s innate mathematical advantage. (Come to think of it, she might also note her father’s achievements and reputation in that most masculine of pursuits, poetry.)

Interesting though! Isn’t it, that men are just more naturally suited to those roles that are rewarded both financially and socially in capitalist economies, while traditionally feminine traits make women perfect for low-paying, low-prestige service jobs, often in industries that are low or non-profit making. And the resulting nuclear family structure conveniently and easily allows capitalist solutions to the problem of providing basic needs, while ensuring the next generation of workers and consumers to be raised in isolation from the wider community. It’s almost like it was designed that way...

Finally, #4, @remizidae7, a job would certainly enhance the LW’s contribution to corporate profits, but its a little bleak to consider that as the only meaningful contribution anyway can make to society, don’t you think?

@4 Were you under the impression that taking care of children well involves nothing but “changing diapers”? As the child of someone who works full-time at a daycare and a relative of an elementary school teacher, I think you’re a fool.

@2 Isn’t “opening jars” basically one of those quintessential cliched examples of traditionally masculine behavior? And why would you assume “bugs” just means spiders? I kill ants in my house but leave the spiders alone.

I think the point is that no one knows what "traditionally masculine" means. That's double the case for "traditionally feminine. To me, taking care of babies is deeply masculine. So is having a tender side. For others, a man who would rather be home with his wife and children instead of drinking with his buddies would be made fun of for being pussy whipped or a sissy.

Or take the woman who courageously works to support her family because no one has stepped up to do it (or because she likes the work, finds it challenging and fulfilling). That seems like a feminine trait. It shows tenacity and protectiveness. Someone else might derisively call her a bulldyke. That's especially if the work involves physical farm labor, but look at all the (straight) farm wives who have done it.

We all have our definitions of what's masculine and what's feminine just like we all have our definitions of what's sexually attractive. Those definitions don't have to make much sense to anyone else.

Remizidae- 4- Your comment would seem to me more an argument to make sure women get paid more in the workforce. As it is, women in heterosexual relationships are more likely to spend more time at house and child care than their husbands in large part because that's most cost effective for the couple. He can get paid more so he spends more time at the career paid work. Also note that "traditional" marriage had provisions built in for the financial well-being of the wife in event of divorce.

It seems clear that the LASS follow-on letter writer needs to push her husband into therapy and into exploring medications for his primary issue and to treat its erectile effects, or get out of the marriage now. Her husband's argument against trying medication is entirely faulty since he is not able to maintain an erection often or for very long. I would also suggest that if she is having bad sex at 37, does she really want to add children into the mix, knowing that opportunities to improve their sex life will decrease? Based on years of reading SLLOTD that sounds like a recipe for her to be writing 15 years from now, that she is in her 50s, and hasn't had good sex for 25 years.

TEEGRL's update is too bad, but the more cynical part of my mind, thinks that her ex used TEEGRL's comment as a pretext for ending the relationship unrelated reasons, including deciding that she was not interested in dating a transwoman.

One thing that did resonate in the letter on femininity and masculinity, is the exciting difference between my body and a woman's.

I'm 5'3 and I always thought 69ing was some kind of weird scam that was just awkward and uncomfortable for everyone involved. Then I started dating my 5'8 boyfriend. Shorter men are where it's at!

Also, if you're not someone who obsessively works out and watches their diet then chubby guys are where it's at too. I want someone to cuddle and eat pizza with, and skinny dudes can't cuddle for shit.

BabyRae @ 13 - "chubby guys are where it's at too. I want someone to cuddle and eat pizza with, and skinny dudes can't cuddle for shit"

I'll second that ! Also: at the risk of stereotyping, chubby guys, by definition, like to eat, so (in my experience) they know how to use their mouth and are always willing to.

Ha! The copy editors are on the case. :)

I hope Traditionally Male Lovecast Caller doesn't read Mrs Laundry List's contribution. If I were to indulge myself and guess which member of the assembled company might have written that letter, I'd be tempted to make a Machiavellian guess that it was written by Ms Rand in order to set the bar for traditional masculinity so high that ninety-nine traditionally masculine readers out of the hundred would writhe in despair of ever coming up to the mark.

There are some positives I can attach to this modernized version of June Cleaver. Clearly, traditional gender roles had to work for a great many people to last so long, and someone deserves credit for knowing oneself so well and selecting such a well-suited mate. This letter can be seen as a pleasant combination of FTWL and CMY. Another pleasant thing is that Mrs C can come up with such a long list of Mr C's attractive traits. I recently rewatched both the British and the American versions of the series Cracker; the American version adapted and condensed five of the cases from the British version. A sixth, True Romance, was adapted and not condensed, both versions lasting two episodes. It opens in both versions with the only time we ever see Fitz in an office with a client - a woman starting his exercise of listing twenty good things (and then twenty bad things) about her husband. She gets to four good things, the fifth is iffy, and then she realizes that it's four more than he deserves. She thanks Fitz for opening her eyes, pays up, says it's the best fifty she's ever spent, and walks out halfway through her first session. Only at the police station later do DCI Wise/Lt Fry and Fitz both discover that Fitz' newly husband-dumping client was the copper's wife. Oopsie! It is at least nice to know that some people married so long have no difficulty whatsoever in listing twenty good things.

Now we come to the Gertrude Award. The list is far too long, and all their qualities mesh far too perfectly with perfect adherence to gender roles. And Mrs C is too perfectly non-judgemental. I could accept (with the possible exception of the several stay-at-home dad friends who are all awesome - at least Ms Cute admits that all her close women friends are gorgeous in her estimation without trying to insist that they're all objectively so) any of the individual points made along the way, but the list as a whole reminds me of those attested claims that Kim Jong Il birdied every hole in a round of golf. By the end, I found myself thinking along the same lines as Elizabeth Bennet on learning the full extent of all the qualities deemed necessary for Mr Darcy to call a woman Accomplished. Maybe someone so perfectly in accordance with all the good qualities (and by invited inference none of the bad) associated with TGR exists, but I've never met such a one. LW's insistence that her picture is so perfect also reminded me of Gerda Christow in The Hollow - a doctor's wife whose reverence for her husband leads his sculptress mistress to convince Gerda to pose for her and later present Gerda with a traditional statuette while really making Gerda into an abstract piece called The Worshipper; Gerda later murders John when the perfect picture cracks.

And, in a spin on the programme, I'm concerned about Ward. I won't go so far as to touch on male disposability, but I find it a bit selfishly ghoulish how she relishes his being "emotionally reserved with everyone but me". Now, one can understand that. It calls to mind Emma and Frank Churchill's discussion of Jane Fairfax's being reserved, and how, "One cannot love a reserved person." "At least until the reserve ceases towards oneself, and then the attraction may be the greater," which, although Emma fails to realize it, turns out to be pretty much exactly what happened between Frank and Jane. But is that really such a good quality for poor Ward? Let's recall how Mr Bennet consoled his wife when she was imagining after his death Mr Collins turning her and her daughters out of the house before Mr B went cold in the grave, that they should dispel such gloomy thoughts by flattering themselves that he might be the survivor. Can we not visualize in another twenty or thirty years a letter from Wally's wife to Le Fils (who in this particular scene vouchsafed by my crystal ball will have taken over the Landers Desk) complaining about how Ward hadn't been a widower for two months (very Hamlet-like) before he married again, all because June had provided his sole emotional outlet for decades?

I can sympathize with the caller - he's a little like Mary MacGregor wanting to enter the Senior School on the Classical side instead of the Modern when her marks aren't good enough. But even the Brodie Set were able to cope with Eunice's going Modern, given Eunice's being so athletic that it couldn't be helped. But for ever so long society and Miss Brodie have considered traditional masculinity to be, as it were, the Classical side of the school. It's unfortunate for the caller if it has switched around - probably temporarily - just as his time, but even the Moderns will survive and thrive. Good luck to him.

Yes Pan Sapien @8; Rearing children is worthwhile and important work, as is cleaning house and cooking etc, traditional feminine roles. Yet they have almost zero value outside the home, and are seen as background work to the real stuff. The stuff one gets paid for.
Trouble is if husband does stray, wtf is she going to do to support herself and maybe the children. Let’s hope it doesn’t get to that because who is going to front some martial arts guy.

You kill ants, @9? Traditional masculine behaviour is whatever a man wants it to be.
He is a man and part of the tradition of manhood, so however a man is, then it’s now part of the tradition.
Enough with these brute men being so gentle with babies. Please. Spare. Us.

“cross-dressing is "traditionally masculine" in its own special way, since it's usually traditionally masculine guys like Son Of A Cross-Dresser's dad who cross-dress.”

Don’t get me wrong, I also used to open jars while married but mostly because I figured a way to use a spoon and slightly bend the lid by the thread in order to allow some air in. True to my heritage I’m indeed hairy, yet my figure isn’t that masculine at all as I’m on the thin side and around 5’6”. Sadly, I may never get to cuddle while eating pizza with neither Ricardo nor BabyRae, and my position on 69 is well documented.
I was also shy, somewhat klotzy, which I still am, and was teased more than once for being “like a girl.”
What is commonly known as “cross dressing” became a thing for me in a very early stage of my life, and all efforts to “arrest the behavior” have gladly failed.

Observing the people I’ve met and befriended after coming out I can attest that body type has nothing to do with who you are.
Plenty bigger body crossdressers, non-binaries and trans women, as well as on the smaller side trans men.

While some may enhance their self projection of masculinity as a way to prove themselves, possibly also deflect suspicion, that over projection isn’t confined to those who may struggle with their nobinary status and preferred dress code. Quite a few ordinary dudes are compelled to do so regardless.

Being a 50’s housewife now is much more difficult economically. Is this poor sod working himself to the bone so little missy never has to work? Children grown up, go to school. There’s a few reasons why that particular model of family blew up.

I have sons, I see what these archaic masculine models do to them.
Good luck princess wife, and go get part time work when the kids start school. They cost the earth.

I hope it’s the creative writing that makes the happy home maker emphasizing contrasts, yet lines like, “I love that he is emotionally reserved with everyone... except me” make me wonder about hubby’s wonderfulness.
Is he an asshole to all others? Are his long hours at work truly a necessity or a way to avoid his family?
And why does she need to go on and on while observing that “It has been my experience that people who are truly smart, strong, successful, etc. don't need to assert that they're smart, strong, and successful”?

If it takes more than 5 minutes to (not) get wet, it sounds like they both have a performance issue.

@LavaGirl, “rocket scientist” is a key phrase. If this couple live in Huntsville, Alabama, Houston, or near White Sands NM, it could well be that they have a nice standard of living and husband doesn’t work to death because they live in a place with a relatively low cost of living. (Actually, this sounds like some people I know....“lots of stay at home dads” sounds very Houston.)

For men with performance anxiety — have any of you tried a cock ring? Or a harness and dildo? Switch to bio cock if hard, use android cock at other times? Lots of talk about therapy and meds which may well be part of the solution, very little about physical devices that may also be part of the solution.

On rereading Mrs Cleaver's (if I may liberate Mr Venn's bang-on reference) homage to conformity, I am also struck by how easily impressed she is. She loves the fact that her husband is an effective substitute for insect repellant and running a jar under hot water? And I doubt I would be complimented if someone considered "physically capable of injuring a baby, but doesn't" as one of my most loveable qualities.

Also, the idea that "emotionality" is a feminine trait and that men are to be valued for their emotional reserve and self-reliance is not a good thing and should not be celebrated - emotions are experienced by every single human being, and it is absolutely toxic for men to value being reserved and self-reliant (it is this belief that drives the disparity in suicide rates), and dangerous for any women who may know a man who is relying only on himself to deal with any anger-management issues he may have.

And Mrs C might also reconsider little humblebrag about compassion - true compassion is not an innate trait in any person, man, woman or non-binary - it is instead our reward for the suffering and loss and pain that are as much a part of human experience as love and pleasure, the ability to understand that we are not alone, and that, even though all of us could stand to be better human beings, we are mostly doing the best we can under the circumstances.

PS - a prison in which one is perfectly comfortable is still a prison.

@25 I don't think you're qualified to speak on compassion

@27 What qualifications are required to speak on compassion, other than that I am in need of it? I live. That is my qualification. What qualifies you to sit in judgment of me?

And, also, mate, it seems a little intellectually lightweight to simply dismiss my ideas. Where am I wrong? How does your understanding differ from mine? You don't think I am qualified, but then again, I see no evidence that you think at all.

Just going to point out that there is seldom a jar that cannot be opened by me, a humble female, by putting on a pair of rubber gloves (the type you use to wash the dishes). A good grip is the key.

Slinky, I have no issue with stay at home parents/ care givers. It’s the attitude behind this woman’s words, like she’s describing some ideal state. No honey, it isn’t. Good she’s got it sorted, Good if she doesn’t have to work.. though I’d suggest she get an interest, mothers who talk about their flamin great kids all the time get a tad tedious to talk with. Zzzz

Yikes! I'm in a very satisfying, somewhat stereotypically traditional relationship (minus any kids—and minus all this male physical strength), and I was a little grossed out by the LW gushing about her traditional superman.

Like, good for them, but an extended paean to an apparently extraordinary husband and father seems to lose the thread. A laundry list of virtues makes it easier to see how you don't measure up than to be proud of who you are, even if that's the sometimes-vilified white cis male.

I'd suggest the caller forget about his group membership and focus on making choices that improve his life and the world around him. Start with pursuing mental habits that don't tear yourself apart for having traits you can't control. And definitely ignore the loud online voices that seem bent on tearing others down.

Pan @28-@29, just read the comment at @23 to see what level of intellect (ha) you're dealing with here. Don't feed the troll. Less than a week after being banned and he's back to insulting everyone again. Yawn.

Calliope @30, I live alone and happily open my own jars and kill my own bugs. Not spiders of course, they help keep the bug population down. I do miss having someone around to do the traditionally masculine DIY jobs, not because they are traditionally anything but because I lack that particular skill. Fortunately I've been able to do what this housewife would do if her husband weren't around, get a job, and I can pay contractors when I need them.

Oh and just casting a vote for skinny men. They're perfectly capable of cuddling and eating pizza, and there's nothing nicer than snakelike hips to wrap one's thighs around. Good thing we have a variety of preferences, eh?

In fairness, LavaGirl, the LW is no one-note Nellie. She could probably bore you to tears talking about how great her husband is as well.

Slinky @24, I agree a dildo would be a very worthwhile purchase for this couple. If he can get over himself enough to use it.

Traditional Housewife could have saved a lot of words just by linking to this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhk3TrUJyQ0

Thanks for the kind words, BiDanFan - I'm 6'3" and weight about 165 pounds. Is it wrong that I'm slightly turned on by the thought of thighs wrapping around my snakelike hips?

Too true Pan Sapien, re males and self reliance. I’ve had one of my sons home after a heavy yr of work, needing to learn that being stoic and not sharing pain along the way with others.. is toxic masculinity. He’s going well now. After some good cries.
The suicide rates, like the murder ones, all point to expectations on males to contain vulnerable emotions, and be allowed anger. Like a cultural straight jacket.

I guess cave man kills snakes too.. which is illegal in our country. Go figure. Some of the most poisonous snakes and we have to somehow relocate them.
What’s with the original man, he’s stressing because he’s got body hair or muscles, /favourites for some of us. Shave his hair. Stop exercising. Or enjoy the manhood he’s got and stop finding crazy things to complain about. Fine as you are lad.

LW who won’t leave her husband, Dan is right, expand your game plan. It all sounds so fraught, then unfraught it. Play a little with him, surprise him sexually. First up you have to insist he stops blocking this and hears your distress. Is he ambivalent about a baby? Issues threading thru, and you both late thirties.
Not a sacrifice I’d make, sexual pleasure, so cut thru all the smoke he’s using and follow Dan’s suggestions.

Callipe @ 30 - A thick rubber band (elastic) around the lid does the trick faster and without the yucky feeling of rubber gloves on your hands (they give me rashes).

BDF @ 33 - " I live alone and happily open my own jars... pay contractors when I need them."

You and I are not only white butt buddies, we're soulmates! And (following from the "she left he husband" thread) I also lived a few doors down from a crackhouse at one point many years ago and had a crackhead colony settle in front of my last appartment. As for the serial killer, I've not checked that off my list yet, but... A former coworker kidnapped and tortured his ex-girlfriend and fed her only salt crackers for two weeks before she managed to escape, so I'm getting close.

@28 Pan,
Generally speaking, one should not call for compassion after demonstration a compete lack of it. Show compassion before asking for it. W/r/t BiDanFan, she finds me threatening because... I'm not sure really. Maybe she is concerned ill reach through the computer monitor and rub some blackness on her?

If you have a problem with a couple enjoying a mutually enjoyable relationship that harms no one else, you might as well come out against gay marriage now, BiSantorumFan

It's not just online that otherwise accepting people can be irrationally knee-jerk negative about some things. The first college I attended was a private, very, very liberal, er, liberal arts school. As a part of freshman orientation week, they had a panel on diversity and acceptance with a very diverse group of speakers. At the time I was struggling extremely hard with my mental illnesses, and even though the speakers were great, the whole thing played into my negative self talk at the time and made me hate myself for being white, cisgendered, and (probably) straight. Like, I hated myself to the point of self-harm.

I went up to one of the student organizers and said, "The panel was great, but I kind of hate myself now," looking for some reassurance that I wasn't a bad person just for being who I am. She said, and I quote, "That's great! Hating yourself is the first step in checking your privilege." I went back to my dorm room and cut myself.

Depending on who you're talking to, being negative like that is at best insensitive and kind of obnoxious (in addition to, I think, being wrong -- you don't have to hate yourself to check your privilege, right?) and at worst dangerous. I wasn't actively suicidal, but I definitely had suicidal ideation, and if it was worse, a comment like that may very well have helped me justify a suicide attempt. As it was, it helped me justify self-harm at that time and many times later on. Mental illness isn't obvious just from looking at a person, and you never know what a stupid comment is going to trigger. Especially in a stressed-out population like brand new freshman college students.

I don't know. I was probably overreacting. But I feel like I understand where that caller is coming from. Not every white person is going to get the message that it's a good thing if they hate themselves, but those who have pre-existing issues are more likely to internalize that when they hear it and use it as a justification to hurt themselves. Telling anyone in any group to hate themselves is dangerous. Even white people.

I still struggle with that comment in my weaker, sicker moments. I don't have to hate myself to be a good liberal, right?

sporty, pulling the race card is pathetic at best. An asshole is an asshole regardless of skin tone.

That’s terrible Muse, what a stupid person saying hating yourself was some good thing. Some of these people have gone too far.
Muse, it’s not a good thing to hate ourselves because we are white, cis gendered, straight or being a man, for this caller. . Being accepting of others does not mean denying oneself. Muse, do not hate yourself, ever. Enough people outside to project negativity onto us.
Those parts of ourselves we have no control over, our skin colour our sex/ gender our orientation. Who you are as a person is what you do have control over. Kindness, work ethic, etc. I’m sorry you’ve had such a hard time, hugs to you.
But Ricardo, if Fan, a woman, can be your soul mate, how come I can’t. Granted, I’m not that good at opening jars. Lazy really because there is usually a male around to save me the effort.

Happy December to all. It’s that time of year again, when most of you lot freeze and here we drip sweat. Free saunas.

I don't kill bugs, partly because I'd feel bad, but mostly because then I'd have a dead bug to deal with. I catch them in a tissue and throw them out the window. In the winter, it would probably be more humane to squish them, though. Oh, well.

Except mosquitoes, obviously. Damn blood-suckers. I hate parasites.

(At least humans don't really have any parasitoids. Those are a subset of parasites whose exploitation of their hosts ends in the hosts' death 100% of the time, often by the mother laying an egg inside the body of a live host for the offspring to eat its way out when it hatches. * Shivers * Very common in the insect world. Many parasitic wasps are actually parasitoids. There are even parasitoids of parasitoids -- hyperparasitoids. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitoid)

Lava @ 45
“But Ricardo, if Fan, a woman, can be your soul mate, how come I can’t.”
Could be worse, I don’t even qualify for a pizza )

Muse, I’m actually not sure if a dose of self-hatred isn’t required to be a good liberal. That’s why I prefer to regard myself as a progressive or, better still, a radical. Being a ‘good liberal’ always struck me as something of a milquetoast ambition anyway. Why just check your own privilege when you can burn the whole hierarchy down?

@41 Sportladia - Generally speaking, I find it best to avoid making profound, whole-of-person judgements about people based on their internet comments. Too much risk of projecting my own issues onto the lives of people I know nothing about. For example, I have not asked for compassion, merely suggested that I, like everyone, am I need of it. Now,I have no doubt that I could be more compassionate, both to others and (Muse, this is for you) to myself. If I might suggest, Sporty, you might want consider why you feel it necessary to judge a random stranger on the Internet as entirely lacking in compassion (which would make me something of a sociopath), and then rather brusquely inform them of the fact. Do you find that it makes people more disposed to listen to you and understand your point of view? Because it just makes me think you’re a bit of a jerk.

Lava @38, some men, even straight cis ones, hate their body hair. Waxing and lasering are things, but you're correct, so is finding someone who digs body hair, if you have been blessed with it.

Ricardo @40, happy to be your mismatched orientation white butt buddy soulmate! And since I am poly, surely that means multiple butt buddy soulmates? I invite CMD and Lava for virtual pizza with us, in a time zone to be determined.

Sporty @41, don't flatter yourself. I don't find you threatening, because you're fortunately not capable of reaching through a computer monitor and murdering me. I find you an asshole, because you are one, and you take every possible opportunity to prove it. Please get some help.

Calliope @43: "Hating yourself is the first step in checking your privilege." Holy shit! So that diversity panel failed by not having a representative of people with mental health issues on it. Good grief. But yeah -- if one is aware of privilege, and one is aware that one has received a disproportionate amount of it, guilt is a natural reaction, and guilt can flare into self-loathing if one has poor self-esteem. This may indeed be what the male caller was feeling. Calliope, your demographics are the luck of the draw, like anyone else's. Despite being queer, which is not outwardly apparent in my case, I have a lot of privilege and I use that awareness to try to support people who don't, both as a SJW (keyboard warrior) and putting my money where my mouth is. We all have our own struggles -- mental health is yours, so don't let anyone guilt you for having been born white, or with well-off parents. Hugs!

Cocky @48: Amen to your disgust at fake helplessness. This works both ways though -- so many married men get out of domestic chores by pretending they "don't know how" to load a dishwasher or scrub a toilet. Grow up, everybody.

Calliope and Pan, you are welcome to the virtual pizza party too.

Mx Wanna @22 - Is Ward a villain or a victim? June encourages and rewards him for his not being emotionally open with anybody else, which seems at least dodgy. Maybe they're both genuinely idyllically happy, but, if there's an abuser in the relationship, I'll guess June. At the very least, she's setting him up to be a widower as ready to make an imprudent (next) marriage as Captain Wentworth - "Anybody between fifteen and thirty may have me for asking. A little beauty, and a few smiles, and a few compliments to the navy, and I am a lost man. Should not this be enough for a sailor, who has had no society among women to make him nice?"

Ms Fan @54 conclusion - It could be viewed as a bit of a spectrum. There are some people who genuinely don't know how to do something - recall the second season of Downton Abbey and the episode in which Lady Sybil literally couldn't boil water. Or there's a scene in The Hollow (novel only) in which John is late for lunch and Gerda is afraid that the joint will get cold and he'll be cross, but if she sends it back to the kitchen to stay hot and it's not on the table when he comes he'll be cross about that, and if she carves it herself she'll do it wrong and that will go over just as badly...

What it usually comes down to is something along the line of tug-of-war. The less skilled partner (as I have seen this in complementarian SS couples as well as OS, I shan't gender it) in task X does it, but doesn't do it "right". The complaint has variable amounts of accuracy - some people get out of doing laundry by passive-aggressively not sorting colours or using non-optimal settings; some do a task to a serviceable standard but the more skilled partner's standard is higher; sometimes "right" just means "the way I like".

I'll give June a little credit for at least owning that she likes things on her own account, which is better than if she claimed she just lets him do (unpleasant) things because it makes him feel manly.

Ms Muse @43 - That rather depends on who gets to be Humpty Dumpty and define "a good liberal". There seems to be quite a rift among the YouTube left at the moment concerning whether such an entity even exists, with some saying they're as bad as centrists (or that liberal constitutes the centrist position) and others saying they can make acceptable allies on occasion. The right seems at present to consider liberals either nuisances or useful idiots.

Diversity panelists can be quite dodgy in and of themselves, or at least can say things that don't age well. Today's orthodoxy is often next decade's boomerism. I recall with some clarity how those for whom conveying the message You Should Hate Yourself was integral to strategy were gaining traction at about the time I retired from activism.

Mr Pan - Burning down the whole hierarchy could be lovely, but those holding the torch rarely seem to have a sense of what will be built in its place. Usually it resembles the Rumpolean observation that the young tear down the repressive old moral code and replace it with one that's much more strict.

@53 Pan, you might consider asking - and answering - that question of yourself first. Unless you think that you're simply not subject to the same rules you advocate others follow?

You Should Hate Yourself For Your Race, Orientation and Gender is the mantra of many people here. Let's not pretend to be surprised this happened, it's only absolutely predictable.

But whatever you gotta do to avoid responsibility - but don't worry, there are so many people with the same need to discharge their responsibility that no one will ever single you out - you're totally safe.

Late as lately usual to the party, but..
Short Guy Online Dating – Yes, some women, including ones who ID online as 'liberal/progressive' screen for this, and for frequently 5”+ above their own height.
(And let's all remember, 'heighth' is not a word.) Match.com is the first online site I used that let people explicitly state these preferences, and I was indeed a bit surprised.
Yes, it's stupid. Yes, the women doing it would (often) be shocked and grossly offended by a guy on the site demanding C-Cup boobs or bigger...No, it's not going away.
Citing celebrities who're short doesn't count – It's not All Women, but if you have money, drugs, or fame, Some Women (and Men) will be happy to keep you company.
Don't wear lifts, and don't exaggerate your height online. You better be ruthlessly honest in your profile, or be ready to see your date's face slam shut like a door when they first see you (applies to ladies as well.)
5'7 over here, and not changing.
I might have more to say about the June Cleaver letter in future, but we're all just spitballing without knowing how both in the couple actually conduct themselves. Co-sign the 'being reserved with everyone else' is...not, to my mind a positive.
I get to train with and do repairs on a bunch of full-contact fighters, and they're less 'reserved,' and more just relaxed, you know? Several of them are flat-out goofballs, and it's hard to picture them deliberately hurting anyone. A male Brazilian Jui-Jitsu champ, who scares the shit out of everyone in his weight class, has a gentle handshake, looks down a lot when we speak, I have to keep saying, “You don't have to call me 'Sir,' “ but I've heard other fighters describe him as the baddest dude in here. His wife is a BJJ world champ in her weight class, sweet and shy as an elementary teacher.
When you're a BMF for real, you don't need to put it on other people. Maybe LW's husband doesn't. But I also see profiles on dating apps from women asking for a 'real, Alpha male' and I give these chicks a hard pass, as I figure they're looking for some cartoon of a guy that I'm not and don't want to be.
Back to the height thing – head instructor is 5'7, regularly knocks guys 50lb+ on their ass.
And yes Cocky #48, concur, it's a roach or spider, not a rabid wolverine. That would not be my scene, either. Life throws enough rocks and weeds at us, I don't need my SO doing the fainting couch thing.
Fan #55, guess I'll eat my pizza outside, lawn chair in the driveway or something. Although I just recently saw that someone has come up with what looks like a halfway-decent frozen pan pizza, the pic on the box makes it look thick as lasagna.
Temperature allowing, I'll be OK.
(sob sob)

PS @ 52
A true liberal will always feel guilty for something, or at the very least will attempt to present a “balanced” response of some sort.
It is a trait that’s constantly exploited by conservatives as well as ordinary right-wing assholes. Flatly denying all their wrongdoings while providing clear cut, patriotic references may make them appear to some as being “decisive.”
The “whatever you gotta do to avoid responsibility” mentioned here earlier is part of a similar scheme, blaming the rest of the world for all your troubles while refusing to look into your own shortcomings that cost you bitter interactions with most others.

BiDanFan @55 I'm honored to be invited to the pizza party. I can bring the beer (if I'm told what to buy; I hate beer and prefer hard cider).

Venn- I’m attempting to see where that writer is coming from, and I suspect we’re not her prime audience. While it is possible that it may have been written by a member of the miracle crowd, possibly a man, praising the Christian take on the submissive wife concept, I’ll speculate on what we were presented with.

It seems to me that she is attempting to describe her love and admiration for husband in a creative way, a piece inspired by the guilt-ridden straight masculine caller, and intended to be read during the Thursday night open mic down by the coffee shop.
Probably thinking, “Oh let’s get published” she sent it to The Big Savage so here we are, an unintended writing group.

Dear writer, please wait at least two more drafts before taking it to your home group. The fact that you were “published” does not indicate that this is necessarily a well written piece. Dan’s hint was to tell you that your mucho macho hubby may be hiding something behind this façade. Not that anything is wrong with cross dressing and showing emotions.
Quite a few members of the “writing circle” pointed out to the ongoing listings and the need to repeat plenty clichés in the process. If you want it to be more convincing and to the point you probably need to cut it shorter, and “show” as opposed to “tell.” Instead of listing jars and bugs and such give us an incident in which you tried to open a jar, how helpless you felt for 30 minutes until Mr. came back home from his long day at the office, gave you a (dismissive?) smile, wrapped his strong black belt hairy palm over the jar and twisted it effortlessly, handing it back to his adoring wife. A bug story, or better yet a mouse as you stand up on a chair screaming for help, may also work.

Attending few of such readings over the years it often seems like some writers tend to glorify themselves and/or describe a hardship while hoping to squeeze sympathy from members of the audience. As they used to say in the old American Express ads, “Don’t let it happen to you!!!” Be honest to your own true, yet don’t brag about it. Tell us about your struggles as well and please cut it shorter. And if hubby is indeed a cross dresser than there’s really no need to freak out. It can be incorporated to anyone’s fun and mutual joy.
And did I say "cut it shorter"?

Thanks Fan.. I love Pizza. Good pizza of course. Come my way because there’s a great pizza place in the next village. Bring your swimmers and towel, I’ll show you our lovely beaches.

You do try it on @58. You remind of one of my daughter’s step sons. Miserable most of the time and always complaining. As if anyone here says you or anyone should hate themselves for their race, gender or orientation. You’re in the wrong place here, go heckle someplace else where your words might land.

Hey CatB, I’ll invite you to the Pizza Party. Surely all can come Fan? I’ve got room here to set up some tents.
Mr Venn and others, I see an English film of ‘Emma’ is coming out next year.

Speaking of Emmas -- EmmaLiz, if you're out there reading, give us a word or two to let us know you're all right. I miss your opinions.

I know, she's probably just busy. But I'm an anxious person.

Cat @59, you can come to the pizza party too. It's an anti-patriarchy pizza party!
I will say that women who are more than 5" shorter than you, at 5'7", still leaves quite a few options. And many men won't date tall women, so women over 5'10" or so are suffering just as much as short men are.
I'm screening for slim and hairless, I can't screen for height as well. Tall men, short men, average men, and wo-men all welcome here. :)

I agree, Calliope @66, I am missing EmmaLiz. Hope she is just busy. She is definitely invited to the pizza party too, along with NoCute and Curious. Venn too, if that's his sort of thing.

The last guy -- who I'd describe as a typical masculine straight man -- probably needs to move to a city or neighborhood where normal straight people predominate. That's roughly 90% of the country, outside Seattle, Portland, San Fran, parts of LA, Chicago and definitely Manhattan. Anywhere else, he'll be fine.

(Mouth full of formerly-frozen pan pizza, while sitting in lawn chair on Lava's driveway) Mmmhhm-hmm-ghmm.
(Translated) Well, kind of full now, but we're here in Oz, where I understand the spiders grow to about two feet across, understand human speech and can mimic basic sentences, and sometimes group together in a trench coat to crash parties, so I guess I'll stay here on guard.
An anti-patriarchy party? Great, I brought a Sharpie so we can diagram 70's poetry for hidden malice, and a penis guillotine.

No meat, pineapple, nor guillotine for me. Yes to beer, smokables, and edibles.

No penis guilotine on my lawn CatB, half the workforce here have em. And don’t be such a wimp, the bigger the spider the better. Little ones can be the killers. It’s the crocodiles I’m worried about, as one does. Because of climate change they are heading further south, and like with snakes, you can’t kill ‘em. Taken by a crocodile is not how my story is gonna end.

No pineapple CMD, but this is it’s growing country. Juice perhaps? Peaches have arrived and not too long before the lychees are about.. another local fare.

"We didn't set out to have a 1950s era marriage (without the pill taking and the wife beating), it just sort of happened."

Well, sure; that's how norms work. Most people in a society comply with social norms unless they cannot or unless they actively, comsciously work against them. And it's very difficult for norms to persist if they don't work for a majority of people (or a powerful minority of people who enforce the norms). That letter is more a demonstration of how social norms function and reinforce themselves than an argument that anyone ought to embrace traditional gender norms.

Alas, Mr Venn, I fear you have identified the flaw in my plan "if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow" as John Lennon sang.

I assume the same is true of pictures of Rosa Luxemburg.

Cat Brother @70, goodness no, we like penises attached to their owners! An anti patriarchy party would be no misogynists allowed, women get to speak at least 50% of the time, and the men clear and wash the dishes while the women shoo away any spiders. :)

Ms Lava - A new Emma? I've seen that Andrew Davies has filmed a completed version of Sanditon, which will be aired next month.

Mr Pan - I say much the same to the Radical Centrists who want the destruction of the Democrats.

Ms Fan - While I've excelled at clearing up in my time, I really rather doubt I'll ever socialize again on a large scale. Enjoy yourselves, with my compliments.

Hoo, boy. I just read that LASS letter. PLEASE don't miss this dynamic: whenever she needs support or emotional work from him, he makes his emotions so big that she is the one doing the emotional work to support him. This is not just about sex!

This dynamic is very common in straight relationships. A lot of men are not trained in listening or giving, and they react to their partner's emotions by saying, "Oh, you feel x? Well, I feel Y and it's x1000!" Their partners are women, are trained in listening and being supportive, and just automatically go into supporter mode. Sometimes that is partly because the men in this dynamic think that's what they're supposed to do--we're feeling things now, and talking about feelings, so here's my contribution! But they also just DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. They have been so well trained since childhood to smash down their emotions that they don't have space for other people's emotions.

Get this bit sorted! He has to learn to hear you AND BE OKAY WHILE HE IS HEARING YOU, AND THEN do the normal relationship work to take care of you so you get what you are also entitled to in a relationship, a supportive and responsive partner who sees and hears you on your path in life, knows what is going on, and is there for it. Otherwise, if you don't put a stop to this, when you need him to listen, or do anything to support you beyond buying and fixing shit and other traditionally do-er man things, this is what will happen.

Look for a Gottman Institute therapist. Read more about this dynamic. It is real, and it is going to show up more and more, as LASS realizes she, like all humans, has needs and can't always be the support machine for someone who doesn't support her back.

@2. Lava. Tarantulas. He breathes on them. He dabs them with his pinkie. They wither.

Really, did there need to be an ad wondering whether I'd like to support The Stranger in the middle of that 'he kills bugs, he's emotionally unresponsive, he has callused hands' cishet paean--he's all these things, he's so minoritised! So minoritised that my heart goes out to him, so minoritised it breaks my heart! Your heart doesn't break at the trans people forced to skulk round the disabled bathrooms? Or holding it in so they don't have to risk getting beaten up?

The last short para. isn't directed at you, Lava--I agreed with your response to the lady writing in.

Her husband is privileged. It's legitimate for her to love him for all the characteristic things she loves him for--but it's inappropriate for anyone to claim minority, protected or pseudo-glamorous status in doing so. The progressive response for her would be to love him and find him hot on whatever basis she likes, but to check her privilege in affirming the desirability of het norms.

@5. Bi. At a societal level, everyone is hurt. Callused-hand hubby and an effeminate guy go for the same manual job. Mr Normative-Guy Guy gets it--hands down. Mr Femme moves to Pasadena. They're both losing out--missing each other's company, in a way. There aren't many places where almost all the cishetnormative couple's friends are Savagista-type exceptions. Prejudice structures everyone's lives too thoroughly.

@12. Sublime. LASS 2.0, the follow-up writer in a comparable situation, asked 'what should I do?' in a very naked way. It was a cri de coeur. There was at least five or six very obvious things she could do. Well--she could do them; but more than that, she needs a reset. She, together with her husband, need to back off the baby-making and think about the next forty years. It's unlikely the sex will get better for her when she has a small child.

In her mind, the advice Dan gave before--'stop sex until your anxious husband can accept he's under an obligation to try to satisfy you'--was wrong, because it didn't take into account having to have sex to make a baby. Whoa! Isn't there a /greater/ need here to address the fact that your sex is unsatisfying? Because you're saddling yourself with this poor lover, potentially, for life? The second writer really has to lift her head and ask what kind of life she wants long-term. Does she want to be with someone unable or unwilling to face their problems?

@43. Calliope. Your situation at the freshman orientation and the LW's situation in lauding her relationship's cishetnormative features are in no way alike. You were expressing distress and self-doubt. You had nothing--or felt like you had nothing. You were not praising anything; you were not implicitly diminishing difference, or marking it as non-normative or below-standard; you were not saying that what you were (or had) was valuable to you, in the face of someone purportedly running it down or taking it as a legacy of exploitation or domination. An appropriate response to your words could have been just, 'what do you mean?'. Or something like 'surely you should only feel bad about yourself if you have bad or prejudiced views?''. The organiser should have listened to you more and taken better care of you.

There is a big difference, for me, between what the traditionally-gendered wife said and e.g. 'I love that my husband is broad-shouldered. But I would vote against anyone who said you needed to be broad-shouldered to be sheriff, even in this Wild West town. The political point is the more important one. I stand against prejudice and prejudicial assumptions. Still, in my emotional life and when it comes to desire, I see no harm in saying that I heart-hubby-broad-shouldered'. Fine, say that. I would be happy for your support. But with what she actually said ... no; she must know that the personal message 'I love big-shouldered guys' gets run into the exclusionary political message, 'we need a broad-shouldered guy for sheriff' so often and so frequently imperceptibly that professing cisheterosexuality (or the right to such) is almost always taken as an affirmation of the right to marginalise the atypical.

@58. Sportlandia. One can regret past actions, revile potential courses of action, deplore certain characteristic, maybe instinctive or unreconstructed mindsets or prejudices--but nobody should ever, ever hate themselves for who they are in terms of background, class, parental wealth, race, sex, gender or sexual orientation.

Harriet_by_the_bulrushes @82 I wasn't comparing myself to the woman who wrote in, but to the caller she was responding to -- the man who called Dan because he hates himself. I was trying to point out that he may have pre-existing issues like me that make him feel that way, or people in his life like the student organizer who reinforce that feeling in some way.

I made no comment about the woman who wrote in about why she likes her husband, and I will continue to make no comment on it. I just really don't care about that letter.

Lava @ 72
No pineapple on my pizza, any other way is fine.

@84. Calliope. OK, I see there may well be similarities.

If 'us' refers to people who are nonnormative, and who are disadvantaged by our nonnormativity, then I see membership of 'us' to be determined by what someone thinks, says and does, not by characteristics they've been ascribed (in e.g. gender or sexuality terms).

This is changing the subject--but I would consider posters whom some other commenters regard as not part of 'us', like Dadddy, Sportlandia and Hunter, to be fully and characteristically part of us. One would have to be to want to go on commenting. These people want to help and feel they have a valuable perspective from which to do so.

87 I believe The Knack covered this situation for you -

"Uh will you bring my husband back,
My husband back,
He's filin', gonna give me the shove, Manuka,
Though our marriage was pretty wack,
Pretty wack,
I for sure can recapture his love, Manuka,
Caught him with his aide, on the top, such a dirty mind
She always gave it up, made him pop, wicked woman
My, my, my aye-aye, Whoa!
P-p-p-Priest Manuka!"

"This is changing the subject--but I would consider posters whom some other commenters regard as not part of 'us', like Dadddy, Sportlandia and Hunter, to be fully and characteristically part of us. One would have to be to want to go on commenting. These people want to help and feel they have a valuable perspective from which to do so."

@88 - Must you beard the jeering mob so? Careful, lest you raise their ire and be dis-invited from the pie soiree.

As a mostly lurker, I have no claims to that pizza party, but you guys also need DonnyK - I have a feeling that the party will ratchet up a notch with his presence!

@90. aftertheafter. I was never invited to the pie soiree--but most likely the reason is that I hadn't appeared upthread and just wasn't at the forefront of Bi's mind. As Jinxie @91 says, many of the commenters she endorses far more frequently than she does me were similarly not explicitly invited.

I don't see a mob--just people pointing out sustained prejudice in their eyes. It is true, though, that some cishet feminist commenters make their points in a more collective or mutually reinforcing way than their typical male / men's rights / skeptical-of-feminism antagonists. Possibly this was a necessity for second-generation feminism.