Comments

1

Dan, I so rarely disagree with you. But here I am. I think that the LW should have a frank conversation about what he and his love can do. If both of them can put it all on the table then perhaps they can find a way to have what they want. A lot of times people say "I have to have you all the way" because they think it's the ONLY way. And they don't know how to do anything else. And they're afraid of being taken advantage of. And yes! That can absolutely happen. But if these two (then three, the lovers love needs to join in the conversation at some point) can settle down, stop making demands and counter demands, and just talk, they many find that they can be together in ways that enrich each other's lives.

2

The ex sounds like an ass to me. Maybe not an asshole, but definitely an ass. I mean, this constitutes serious boundary violations, right? Contacting an ex over and over and SHOWING UP AT THEIR HOUSE after being asked not to? I get that the ex "needs" the LW in his life, but if he needs him that badly he should break up with his boyfriend or find a way to make poly work (provided everyone else is on board), not insist on being just-best-friends-with-sexual-tension with someone who's made it clear that's not an option. I think this behavior is inconsiderate at best and highly manipulative at worst.

3

I revise: I think the ex is an asshole. And if the LW wasn't still so in love with him this would be clear-cut stalker behavior, right?

4

To the LW: I know you're totally still in love with this guy and that's the reason you want no contact, but I think you should seriously examine his behavior and take it into account if you have to re-evaluate whether to continue to have a relationship with him, platonic or romantic.

5

Dan's advice is spot on although I wouldn't be in such a rush with this guy. I agree with post 4, the ex seems like kind of an asshole because he basically knows the effect he's having on you and yet he persists. It's unkind and it reeks of someone who likes attention. Don't give it to him.

6

This sounds suspiciously like it would be a relationship that would go bad if they did get together. I don't need to litigate who's an asshole, but this desperation / exploitation dynamic sucks, and you two are a pair who play out that dynamic together. I'm sure you could have great times while the situation doesn't trigger the dynamic, but sometime he's gonna pull away or want side action or something, you'll go into desperation, he'll exploit it, lather rinse repeat.

7

"Iā€™ve had to block him on all social media"

Finish the job. Tell him you don't want any contact for a year, starting today. Then block his number, his email, whatever else, and don't answer the door when you see him on your porch.

8

You just got out of a sexless marriage. Date around for a year. Meet some new people. Figure yourself out.

Don't stick with your shitty no-boundaries affair partner just because you're scared and he's familiar.

9

Just play that Dua Lipa 'New Rules' song on repeat.

10

Nothing says ā€˜itā€™s overā€™ like calling the cops on someone.

11

If the ex is in love with someone else then he isn't in love with you, and he doesn't want you as a lover. That second part will never change. Even if you click as friends. Even if he breaks up with his current boyfriend.

His needs must come as secondary to yours - it is your life, after all.
Tell him, don't ghost, that you need a clean break as this is holding you from moving forward.
Ask him for at least six months and you'll see how you are then.

Reading between the lines, this guy is using you as a security blanket: the wise older guy, the father figure. You are in love with an illusion, there isn't reciprocation there.

Get on with your life and stick to it.
Maybe get some therapy to understand why you are fixating and committing to relationships that aren't returning the kind of affection that you need.

12

Lots of passion, boundary violations, ultimatums, manipulation, lies and obsession in this story. Like way too much for any kind of a healthy relationship... ever.

That said, I'm sure it's a hell of a ride! Think about what you want and what this person can really give you and proceed accordingly, l-dub. Good luck!! (I get the feeling you're gonna need it!).

13

Isn't this just crying out for polyamory as a solution?

If that won't work, which I suspect it may not, Calliope is right. This guy is an asshole, but SADDER is complicit by not sticking to his boundaries and sending mixed messages. If he thinks he could be poly with this guy, he should suggest it. If the idea of him with another guy hurts too much even if he is with him as well, then he needs to cut the mixed messages and tell him no contact. Block him everywhere and don't answer the door if he shows up. Get a restraining order if necessary. This letter reads as though SADDER enjoys the drama. SADDER, ripping off the Band-Aid will hurt but you must do it if you want to get over this guy. Good luck.

14

LW, it took you six years to get out of a sexless marriage. Donā€™t take another six years to get out of this sexless, damaging ā€œfriendshipā€.

15

ā€œHe wonā€™t let me have nothing.ā€

This is the part where you develop some agency and self-control, LW. Grow up and be an adult. You get to decide how much of a relationship you have with this guy. And have the self-respect to enforce what you know is the right decision.

If it helps keep your resolve, nickname him Meth (in your mind, because youā€™re not communicating with him again past one last time). He may be pleasurable, but itā€™s an addictive, damaging pleasure not worth the withdrawal comedown and is ruining your emotional health and ability to be in a healthy relationship in the future.

16

"Iā€™m ok with that! But I canā€™t deal with that!"

Ack.

17

Am I wrong to think that the ex's behavior seems stalker-ish? I know it's different because the LW is enabling the behavior (and would want the relationship to resume), but still. Showing up at an ex's house because they won't return your calls strikes me as creepy.

18

Lucky 18! I get the įø²hai!

19

"But we message a lot and still see each other a few times a week. Iā€™d even go as far as to say weā€™re best friends. Ugh. Itā€™s all so complicated. Iā€™ve tried ghosting on him to get him out of my life because I canā€™t take the pain anymore but then he just turns up at my house. I've told him that if canā€™t have everything Iā€™d rather have nothing but he just wonā€™t let me go. "

Am I the only one who isn't seeing the ex as an asshole?
They are basically best friends. LW tries to ghost him. First off absent abuse ghosting is cowardly and absolutely does not convey what is going on with the ghoster.
If my "basically best friend" suddenly stopped returning messages, you bet I would be on their doorstep to make sure they are ok!

I get the feeling from something in the wording that the LW was not entirely (possibly even remotely clear) about the need to be boyfriends vrs. friends part. That boundary setting conversation absolutely needs to actually happen and then enforced as Dan suggests.

Maybe I am wrong and the LW was super clear about that boundary but...

20

CalliopeMuse @18

LOL

21

Maybe I thought I read something that wasn't there. If the LW didn't explain his boundaries and instead ghosted the guy, I revise my assessment of the ex as an asshole/stalker-ish. My opinions were based on believing the LW had clearly stated he wanted no contact. I need to re-read the letter.

22

Okay, so I extrapolated from this sentence: "I've told him that if canā€™t have everything Iā€™d rather have nothing but he just wonā€™t let me go." I thought this meant he clearly laid out boundaries that were ignored, but I can see it's pretty open for interpretation, especially if the ghosting-porch episode was before the conversation that sentence references. So I think I was wrong, and now I'm just confused.

23

Really LW? Tell this man to take a hike, because heā€™s ripping your heart out with his insensitive and sadistic behaviour, and that is not what a best friend does.
ā€˜It canā€™t be in between
It canā€™t be now and then
No half and half romance will do .ā€™
I saw that movie, Oklahoma, as s young girl, still remembering the lyrics because I loved listening to the sound track records from these musical movies, and I remember the woman the man is singing with in the song Dan has referenced. She was my first vision of a feminist, of sorts. A woman who enjoyed men and was ok to admit it.

24

Iā€™m with CalliopeMuse. I think if this were a cis hetero relationship then we would look at the ex very differently. SADDER has said and demonstrated that he is only interested in a committed, romantic relationship with his ex. Just because SADDER finds it difficult to enforce these boundaries in the face of his exā€™s persistence does not mean that it is OK for the ex to ignore them. Heā€™s being stalker-ish, and should knock it off.

If he really cares about SADDER, he will realize that his presence in SADDERā€™s life is making him miserable, not happy and fulfilled. If he really cares, heā€™ll let SADDER try to find happiness with someone else.

25

Has anyone written up why gay men love musicals so much and seem to adore these old ones? Good taste. They helped direct my life, thanks R&H and others.
LW, how old are you, because itā€™s time to stand tall and stop with the drama script. Iā€™m sorry youā€™ve lost the love of your life. There will be others, youā€™ve got to get over this one first. And you canā€™t do that if this selfish man keeps appearing. And yeah, learn the lyrics to that song and sing it to him. Go out on a musical note.
ā€˜ With me, itā€™s all or nothinā€™
Is it All or Nothinā€™with you.ā€™

26

This is teenage girl melodrama. You love him, but he's with someone else. Okay, time to move on. Moooooove on. Tell him to stop fucking with your head. Throw a bucket of cat urine on him if he turns up on your porch. Whatever.

27

Good advice from @11. truck & @14. alanmt.

Why does the ex keep coming round? Why does he need the lw? I would think it's because he looks up to him as a pseudo-father-figure--as someone who loves him unconditionally; but he doesn't necessarily need this in a sexual way. Indeed it seems as if the ex is smitten sexually with another guy.

The LW needs to decide whether he wants this friendship, this non-sexual love, even at the cost of being perpetually cut up romantically. It seems that he doesn't. Then he needs to say goodbye to the ex--and mean it.

28

Is LW's favourite figure skater Irina Slutskaya? This letter recalled to mind the more frenetic elements of her Tosca programme.

Ms Lava - Even Mr Savage has admitted that stereotype is past its sell-by date, but I have an at least semi-serious guess at an answer for you. For gays (and possibly lesbians, but I shan't go into anyone else's lane) of a certain age, tendency to romanticize the closet or highly conservative surroundings, bursting into song of FTWL calibre every few minutes likely seemed the only way they could hope to get through a lifetime of compulsory heterosexual presentation.

As you are fond of Miss Bennet, E, I pay you the compliment of expecting you to recall the scene in which, when her mother mentions a young gentleman who'd written Jane some very pretty verses, Elizabeth commented, "And so ended his affection," going on a sentence later to wonder who first discovered the efficacy of poetry in driving away love. Darcy contributed that he'd been used to considering poetry to be the food of love. "Of a fine, stout, healthy love it may. Everything nourishes what is strong already. But if it be only a slight, thin sort of inclination, I am convinced that one good sonnet will starve it entirely away."

On a similar track, for many of us singing about an OS love was the easiest way of performing it. If you derived some benefit from the art form, good for you, but I maintain that it is a sign of progress for the better that musicals occupy a rather diminished position in gay culture, especially as their peak coincided with the era when everything or almost everything SS was only in code.

29

You had to be there, Mr Venn. Or maybe you were. We only had movies then, and musicals seemed to be always on. My confirmation name is Marian, after Maid Marian of course. I was a romantic Catholic. Then there was Marian in The Music Man, and I did have a stint as a Librarian.
Randy Rainbow keeps mining these old musicals, so they are not dead yet.

30

Yes, I see what you mean. Never any obvious signs of gay lovers in those movies.

31

Calliope/Nartweag: I am reading this as a "both" situation. SADDER tells Ex he can't be friends if they can't be lovers, and that he should leave him alone, but then doesn't enforce that boundary. SADDER tries to ghost Ex and instead of getting the hint, Ex shows up because he is concerned, which I agree with Nartweag is understandable. They are both participating in this codependent behaviour. But Ex is apparently fine with it and SADDER is not, so it's up to him to change the pattern. (Also, he's the one who wrote in for advice.)

32

The LW is very cut up, without any kind of grip on his emotions. He hat-tips Dan for guiding him through some 'major' life-decisions, then says he is writing in about a little problem. What's this if it's not a major life-decision? Just because he's not having sex with the guy he loves right now (the guy is having sex with someone else) doesn't make it not a major life-decision.

The lw needs to step back. Why, first of all, did he get into a multi-year sexless marriage? Did he marry someone he wasn't attracted to? Say, of the sort or kind he thought he should marry? Did he jump at the first love offered him, even though that love was not of a dependable or durable sexual kind? What's his sexual type? How many Daddy/son relationships has he had? Is he drawn to them? Is that what he wants? Does he find it hard to acknowledge that's what he wants? I'd advise getting some kind of answer to these (sort of) questions clear in his head, separately, as far as he can manage, from his feelings about the guy he's in love with and can't have. He might--just for instance--come out of this period of reflection thinking, 'yes, I want to be with a younger guy. I understand that a big part of this relationship for this s.o. will be offering acceptance and security in a more-than-sexual way--but I'm nonnegotiable on sex being part of the package'. If he thinks this, then probably he should make a clean break with the guy he can't have--should look for other younger guys, supposing only that he may recover a friendship with his ex somewhere down the line. This is a momentous decision--of the size that will set the terms for his dating--his sex and relationships--for (most of) the rest of his life. He will have owned himself and framed for himself what to go for--something it's difficult to do while anyone is on the hook of feelings for one particular person.

It may be, of course, that there is no pattern to whom he dates at all. The younger guy found him; and he could have fallen just as hard for a comparably emotionally inexperienced (in gay terms) guy who was a fair bit older. I'm not sure, though.

If there's the chance that SADDER will be just as much in love as he is now, in six months' time, with someone with whom he's in a relationship, then he needs to do what he can to give himself that chance.

33

Thanks for the advice guys. Lots of questions posed and lots of spot on analysis

34

Overnight I thought of the Mad Tea Party. SADDER, best of luck in becoming able to say what you mean and to mean what you say.

36

@10 has it right.

37

Good to hear from you, SADDER @33, and good luck!

38

The ex is using you. He's not a good guy. He's surely charming and can play empathetic when you need a best friend, but this relationship is about you meeting his needs on his terms. Been there myself with a friend-turned-girlfriend-turned-friend-turned-girlfriend-turned...you get the idea.

Read up on Cluster B personalities and narcissistic supply. He probably can't see how he's being selfish and can't believe you when you explain yourself. Regardless, you're feeding his ego when he needs your attention. He's eating this up knowing you'll play along even when you don't get what you want. I'm sorry, I know how very painful demeaning that experience is.

The good news is that no contact can work with the right support, which it sounds like you need. Find another best friend and/or sign up for a texting counseling service where you can get daily encouragement to make the healthy choice (and support when you falter). Go on vacation or change your routine so you're not home when he comes around. Join a Meetup.Com group where you'll inevitably meet other divorced folks and have someone to commiserate with. And learn about yourself and what secure attachment feels like, so you're not stuck in sexless relationships meeting the emotional needs of guys who won't be completely intimate with you.

Sorry, that was harsh. But there really is a way through all this. Good luck.

39

Pan Sapiein @11 "Nothing says ā€˜itā€™s overā€™ like calling the cops on someone." wins it.

SADDER, "Iā€™ve had to block him. . . But we message a lot" He has a cruel streak and you have no backbone. How could this possibly work until each of you grow up an awful lot more? You might be able to make a relationship work with someone who was caring, empathic and considerate which isn't this guy. And he might be able to be involved with someone who knew how to set limits, say what he means, and mean what he says which isn't you.

41

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42

Of all the places on the internet for these spambots to look for suckers, this seems like a particularly bad one.

43

Not because we're not suckers, but because there seems to be a higher concentration of skeptics here.

44

44

45

@42. Calliope. I don't know. I get the feeling that some of the people who read / lurk here might be genuinely at sea or perplexed. I laughed at spina bifida ( ;) )

@33. SADDER. Good luck and stay strong!

46

Thatā€™s was funny Muse. Thanks for jumping on SADDER @33. Glad some advice has helped. Take care.

47

@41 As if people who read the comments on Savage Love need help to do sex magick. Let alone the contributors.

48

I guess I was thinking about the people who comment regularly, not the people who read the comments but don't comment themselves.

49

I find that music helps me internalize ideas, and there is very much a song for this one: the Supremes' recording of "You Keep Me Hangin' On" (while it charted higher, I've found nothing to recommend Kim Wilde's later recording). Make it part of your daily affirmation where you remind yourself why contact with this guy is a bad idea.

50

Oh, like polkadachshund @38, I've been there (years-long painful/great/painful dissolution of my relationship with my high school love). That advice is good - no contact with external support from other friends, and I'm serious about the music bit (music is intrinsically linked to human emotional and social processing and memory).

51

Wow I relate so much to this... I've been in love with a man for almost ten years but the timing was never right for us (long distance, then he was sick and didn't want to burden me, then I got married and then he was in a relationship as well).
Now I'm living away from my husband and for the first time in the same city as my love and the feelings are still there for both of us... But he says he loves his girlfriend as well so he can't break up with her (while I'm contemplating getting a divorce) and at the same time he says he loves me and would be devastated of I disappeared from his life ... And I love him so much. I don't know what to do ... So I can't really give you an advice LW, I just want you to know that I understand.


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