How Do You Politely End a Threesome That Isn't Working?

Comments

1

Sounds like your guy isn't on your team w/r/t his sex fantasies. That's no bueno for all the reasons that I assume Dan (I didn't read his reply yet) said.

As to the question "I don’t know why the guy couldn’t get hard" - nerves are the biggest boner killer of all. Even the nerves from an unfamiliar woman sucking your dick can be enough.

Is there something we can do to make this "it should not be expected that men can fuck any time and place and always want to fuck and if they're not hard it's because they're not attracted to the person their with" idea go away?

2

So I'm not sure what the third did to warrant being called an asshole. It seemed he was the only one respecting your boundaries and at least trying to use a condom. And when it was clear your boyfriend was being a shit, he peaced out rather than get involved in what was clearly a fucked up sexual situation. If I were in what I thought was a consensual-all-around threesome and one person starting offering things the other explicitly vetoed, I'd be getting out of there, too.

Maybe he did stuff or behaved in an asshole-ish way outside of what the letter writer wrote... but the only asshole I see from that story was the boyfriend. And with how difficult it is for many people to find partners that go along with their kink (especially ones involving people outside the relationship), that shitheads like that continue to get theirs is frustrating and disappointing.

3

@2: The guy rudely told her to "stop trying" when she graciously sucked his dick in a futile effort to get him hard and he got dressed and left without saying goodbye after she made it clear he wasn't going to get to fuck her without a condom. He's an asshole too.

4

I really think this letter is a prime example of why we need to teach girls that sometimes it's okay and even necessary to be a bitch. If drawing a reasonable line and sticking to it is qualifies as bitchiness, and it shouldn't but I don't have high hopes of that social misogyny changing any time soon, then let's just say that occasions will demand being a bitch for your own safety/happiness.

5

Dan @ 2 - Nowhere does the letter say that he "rudely" told her to stop trying. It says: "He actually told me to stop trying!" The exclamation mark indicates that this surprised her, but you cannot infer from her surprise that he was rude when saying it. She may simply not have ever heard a man tell her, however politely, that it wasn't worth it since at that point he wasn't going to get hard. He might have even felt that she was rude to keep trying when it was so obvious it wasn't working.

Also, the reason why the third didn't say "bye" might have been that he felt something explosive was about to happen between the LW and her boyfriend because the latter didn't respect the former's boundaries, and he just wanted to get out ASAP. He might have walked out of there thinking "Thanks for inviting me to your shitshow! So much tension between these two idiots I couldn't even keep it up!"

TheRob is right: the term asshole is completely uncalled for as far as the third is concerned.

6

@5 remember though, Dan has access to the full unedited letter. There could be something edited for length that clarifies the tone the guy used. I read her “!” As exasperation and surprise at being treated brusquely FWIW

7

And the sentence "My boyfriend and this guy have since texted about him fucking me again." in no way proves that the third is actually interested, just the her BF really wants to have another go at it with this guy and keeps insisting. The third may feel as put off about the idea as the LW, and just not be able to tell the LW's BF to stop it. But who else is not thrilled about the idea, and just not able to tell the BF to stop insisting? The LW herself. Does that make her an asshole?

8

Spoon @ 6 - I'm aware of that. But simply put, if such information is essential to our understanding of the situation, Dan shouldn't have edited it out.

9

ugh- how can someone be arguing with Dan about his advice here?! Women aren't playthings. Those treating them as such are called assholes (at the least). 100% agree with Dan on this one.

10

Miko @ 9 - Not arguing with his advice, but with his judgement of a person as an asshole when that does not necessarily correspond to the content of the letter. The BF is truly an asshole, and she should dump him already. The third? I've been in his situation (being the "special guest star" of a couple who was not as harmonious as they pretended to be), and I see no reason to believe he's an asshole from what the LW tells us.

She says she "thought this guy was kind of an asshole", but she was navigating a very difficult situation, which may have tainted her impression of the guy. Besides, it's easy and natural for someone in a relationship to not want to assign all the blame to the person who's not going to go away once it's over. I did that when my ex was shitty to a couple of our thirds (the third time it happened, though, I figured what the root of the problem truly was).

Also: Dan is not God. We are allowed to disagree. That doesn't mean we think women are playthings.

11

The lw should follow the exit example of third party in the threesome and leave. Why is she even asking this question. It’s obvious. Second, her comments and attitude in her letter made it sound like all she cared about was that this guys meat was hard. He was probably nervous and turned off be the vibe he got. Sounds like there’s no chemistry for either participant. The couple should do more homework before subjecting some poor snuck to being treated like nothing more than a tool with a low battery. Jeez!

12

The asshole part of person #3 comes in with the guy and the boyfriend texting after he couldn’t get it up and the guy either being OK with the boyfriend pressuring LW into fucking without a condom or the guy is pressuring the boyfriend to do it.

13

Another thing, Dan: The internet is forever, and the LW's boyfriend sounds the type to post revenge porn. It wasn't clear whether the sending of video to potential thirds was with or without the LW's consent, but either way before she breaks it off with him she should endeavor to get those videos off his private messages, Dropbox, profiles, whatever. He's clearly not the type to do so if she asks, or to respect a request to not circulate them further. Some people can be trusted with old spank bank material; not in this case.

14

In fairness to the third, the bf does sound creepy as fuck, and manners can sometimes be forgotten when it’s time to get the hell out. The follow up texts are probably not being initiated by him - the bf has proven willing to push the LW’s boundaries, there is no reason to believe he would be more respectful of the third’s. In short, the bf is the obvious motherfucker, and both the LW and the third need to DTMFA

15

First, TODUMP should dump her boundary crossing boyfriend who was willing to push her to engage in unprotected sex. He is an asshole.

But is Mr. Third an asshole? If we are judging his exit, I would say no, based on the information in the letter. It is easy for us to say that when Mr. Todump volunteered TODUMP's pussy for unprotected sex that Mr. Third should have made a smoother exit, but in the heat of the moment, when Mr. Third recognized the situation he was in, bolting does not seem outrageous behavior. He did not act as if TODUMP's boundary should be compromised because he could not get it up, nor was he going compromise his boundaries because he could not get it up. I don't believe he was leaving because TODUMP would not agree to unprotected sex, he was leaving because the situation triggered by Mr. Todump made staying untenable.

I also did not read the rejection of more oral sex as an asshole move, just an honest response that more stimulation was not going to work that evening.

16

No need to be polite about out as you're dealing with impolite people in an impolite situation, so just call it off.

And stop allowing sex videos of you end up on the internet.

17

@3 i'd be busting a hot retreat from that scenario myself, this couple sounds like they have a really fucked up dynamic and I wouldn't want any part of it. Ain't like they're gonna see each other again.

18

Yeah, being a third when the couple starts fighting is pretty ghastly. I'm sorry to the LW that the third wasn't more gracious to her. He could've been. And maybe his behavior was assholish in other ways. But getting out of there as quickly as possible was his right, and no-one should call him an asshole for that.

19

A prospective partner told us when we had just opened our marriage that viagra (or equivalent) was mandatory for group sex -- "don't waste people's time by showing up for a threesome and just hoping for an erection," I think he said.

Lesson learned.

20

It's hard to tell from the letter how much experience she has with other men. This part makes it sound like she has plenty:

"He mostly likes to watch me get fucked."

But this part contradicts that idea: "Recently, we met up with a man for the first time."

Assuming she hasn't been with many men, she should accept there's probably a lot she doesn't know about male sexuality. For instance, many men don't enjoy blow jobs, or they only like blow jobs done a certain way, which you don't know without asking.

21

It sounds like the third started it, as if he were about to walk away when oral wasn't working. The boyfriend must have flipped out because he couldn't control the attraction between the other two, he's proven unsafe for threesomes at least. Things may have worked better if the guys had tried stuff to get her off too, the letter seemed to be focused on man boners.

22

She could tell people well in advance that condoms will be necessary to prevent a repeat. Not that it's her fault it didn't work out.

23

It's hotwife week at SL! Perhaps the soon-to-be-ex-boyfriend should get in touch with the trans woman from last week who also thinks limp dick is a justification for not using condoms. Sometimes the reality of threesomes doesn't match the fantasy, TODUMP has learned. Her boyfriend owes her a massive apology for suggesting she engage in unsafe sex. The third may have been a bit rude, but personally I'd want to get away from a toxic dynamic like that as quickly as possible too. How is what he did different from what Dan advised TODUMP to do -- put one's pants on and nope out of there? He was probably embarrassed about the limp dick. (If someone knew sucking their limp dick wouldn't do any good, I'd appreciate being asked to stop. No doubt the pressure of staying hard made it a self-defeating prophesy.) So, forgive the guy, but not your boyfriend. DTMFA.

24

Bad night! Gotta get outta there! And, ditch the boyfriend.

25

Yeah, I'm gonna agree with everyone else who doesn't blame the third for peace-ing outta there. No, miko @9, women aren't playthings. But you know who else aren't playthings? The thirds that every shitty married couple drags into their emotional clusterfuck.

Couples lure thirds in with the promise of a nice night with two nice people who both like them, and then oh, surprise, one party's unhappy, sulky, or uncomfortable about having sex with you and the other's getting really pushy about it, or both parties are doing their best to reassure each other of their twue wuv by making clear that you're the least-liked, least attractive person in the room. Any sensible third runs far and fast at the first sign that there's some tension between the couple - and for good reason.

26

I agree with TheRob and Ricardo. Third does not get slapped with an asshole label. Who knows what he's now texting with the boyfriend over, but if he was embarrassed by his lack of erection, he wouldn't be the first to let that cloud his judgment on the wisdom of seeing these two again. Philo @22, she DID tell people well in advance that condoms would be necessary -- her boyfriend, who is the one who suggested they ditch them, because HE so badly wanted to see Third banging TODUMP. As well as stating that condoms were necessary before the threesome began. She says the guy was nervous; Boyfriend's pressure can't have helped, and Boyfriend owes Third an apology.

EricaP @20, that jumped out at me too, and I thought that perhaps he likes to watch old videos of her fucking other men?

27

Philophile @21: yeah, good point - how come she's the only one giving oral sex when his dick doesn't work - is his mouth broken or something? On the other hand, maybe the whole situation was making him uncomfortable and that's why he couldn't get it up, and also why he left.

28

Also, "My boyfriend and this guy have since texted about him fucking me again" could well mean "My boyfriend texted the guy and pestered him to try again." We don't know whether, or how, the third replied.
Traffic @25, word.
Traffic @27, presumably because the boyfriend is straight and this is a cucking scenario, not an MMF?

29

I meant the third could go down on the lady instead of being like "well, my dick doesn't work and that's the only tool I have to work with, so..."

30

@19, There's some good advice.

I actually find it a bit strange that LW, after framing this situation, is asking how to politely end threesomes in the future. Every word is screaming out that your boyfriend both is untrustworthy in situations like this and is unworthy of a girlfriend that earned serious GGG bonus stars. DTMFA, twice if you can. Once for being an asshole and once for talking about "closure" afterwards.

As to the question about the third being an asshole or not, I'd disagree with Dan's reasoning. He can of course withdraw his consent to getting a blowjob at any time. If he did so because of the shitshow going on around him, I wouldn't blame him. He might have been a bit embarrassed and also probably hasn't had much experience asking women to stop sucking his dick, so I wouldn't be surprised if it came out a bit blunt. His abrupt exit certainly does underscore Dan's advice that you should say something like "this isn't working for me" when you're putting on your pants and leaving a failed threesome. If he abruptly left because your bf was being an asshole and he wanted no part of this fucked up situation, it's understandable. If he left because you wouldn't fuck him without a condom, then yeah, he's an asshole. It's hard to tell which it was from the letter.

31

Traffic @29, oh, I see. I thought you meant he should have taken a turn trying to get the guy's dick hard! Yes, the entire endeavour seems to have had the singular focus on Boyfriend's fantasy -- watching another man fuck TODUMP. Decent threesome etiquette would have meant that when it transpired Third was nervous and couldn't keep erect with a condom on, they switched to other things. But no, the whole point wasn't what TODUMP wanted or what Third wanted; he was there to do a job, dammit. No wonder the whole situation was so unsexy for him. If they had that singular act in mind, rather than three people having some mutually enjoyable fun, they should have hired a sex worker. (I will note that while no mention is made of anything other than trying to get Third hard enough to bone TODUMP, she does say that the encounter took two hours, so perhaps she just didn't mention the other things they did. But, dude, Mr TODUMP, those other things should have been sufficient. Sometimes erections don't happen and you have to be gracious about them, that's Lesson 1 of Fucking People With Penises.)

32

I sometimes think half the letters that come in to advice columnists are endless variations on:

"How do I do X without outcome Y" where x is something that definitely needs to be done and y is someone will think something bad about me. And sometimes I think all those letters are from women who are afraid, like deathly horror movie afraid, that the something bad is that they'll be thought impolite, something that's not bad at all. I mean, come on, someone is going to say you were rude when you refused to have sex with a stranger without a condom? Like that's a bad thing? If that makes you a bitch, embrace bitchdom. Crow "I'm a bitch" from the rooftops.

(It's like a woman recounting years of getting her teeth punched in and rape, then saying "I want to report him to the police, but that might be mean.")

Consider that this third was going to lose his erection upon entering you even with a condom. The condoms might be the red herring when the real problem was his staying hard at the moment of penetration. I'd go out on a limb and suggest that for him the condom is a physical representation of "I'm really going to do this," and that's what scares him so much he loses his erection.

Imagine if your boyfriend had come to you with this deal: "Do what I want; do whatever I want no matter how much you don't want to, no matter how humiliating, painful, no matter what you've stated is important to you beforehand, and if you don't, I'll say you were impolite, that you're not GGG, and that you embarrassed him. Further, it's not enough that I think it, I'll make sure that you think it too." Would you have gone for that. Would you have said "Okay! Deal!"

The third didn't write in, but if he had, I'd have asked him why he went along with this plan, why he answered the ad. Was he having trouble maintaining an erection any time he penetrated a woman and was thinking that having a man there would help? I'm imagining a guy having trouble coming to terms with homosexuality, imagining that he really wants sex with a man, can't have sex with a woman, and thought that maybe this threesome would help. Or it could be something else entirely.

33

I’m flabbergasted that the LW is asking how to be polite in a situation like that. If she’d gotten up and left before the third did, without saying goodby, that would have been polite enough. But she’s going to dump her shitty BF and block him, so she’s unlikely to find herself in that same situation again.

34

BDF@31: Agreed. If this was a "3 people together for a good time" scenario, then there's a clear question of "so why didn't you all just do something else?" But I think you have the right of it, boyfriend was like "you two are here to do a job for ME," and she was GGG because she's in a relationship with him and wants to make him happy, but 3rd was like "yeah... I signed up for a regular fun threeway, not to fuck a woman who's not that into it while her demanding boyfriend plays diva director of the show, so... peace out."

And honestly, I can't blame him for that. If that's what was on the menu, they should have gotten some costumes and set it up as a roleplay of '2 porn stars and their director.'

35

I think what LW is saying is that she wanted to stop the 3some long before it went 2 hours and before shitty BF turned it into a shit show. If she had it wouldn’t have gotten that far, but she didn’t know how to stop it as it hadn’t got that bad yet. That’s a fair question. Dan’s answer was good there. You just say it’s not working and you take a rain check.

In this case, shitty BF still would have argued, and she would still dump him.

36

@32/Fichu: "Was he having trouble maintaining an erection any time he penetrated a woman and was thinking that having a man there would help? I'm imagining a guy having trouble coming to terms with homosexuality, imagining that he really wants sex with a man, can't have sex with a woman, and thought that maybe this threesome would help. Or it could be something else entirely."

I hope not, but it sound like your first thought is that an inability to maintain an erection during a first sexual encounter with a woman who is basically a stranger is a sign of homosexuality.

The inability to get an erection during casual sex is a entirely pedestrian problem, and arises from the combination of excitement and stress of performing with someone new, and that is without the added pressure of performing before an attentive audience who really wants this to happen.

@19/EricaP is right on to suggest that ED medication is de rigueur for group sex, and that is true even for men who have done a lot of fucking in public spaces with numerous female partners.

37

The people on this thread are making it sound like my boyfriend and I lured this poor man into our room and said “Welcome to the shit show, let’s fight for two hours.”

I didn’t want to drag my letter out with every little detail about my experience, but perhaps the commentators would have been kinder had I done so.

I labeled stranger as kind of an asshole, because he was kind of an asshole, but clearly not the same type of asshole as my boyfriend. I stated my boundary before anyone’s clothes were off. He could have ran out of the room. Instead, he waited until we started and he was struggling with his erection to say he doesn’t usually wear condoms. That’s kind of an asshole move. Also, before we got started, I was trying to get to know a little bit more about him, you know, because I’m human and like to know some details about who I’m having sex with. I asked what he does for a living and his response was “I’d rather not get into that.” Kind of an asshole move. It’s also an asshole move to want to revert to what may have been his issue in the first place: jerk off and watch porn. But the exciting part would be that he would jerk off onto ME while watching porn. I hinted at stranger that I was tired and maybe we could try another time, but he remained in the bed. Once I said no to watching porn while boyfriend and stranger jerked off on me, he hopped out of bed and left. And yes I said no, because I had gotten zero out of this experience and what had either of them tried to do for me? Or even asked? Nothing. So I standby my diagnosis that he was kind of an asshole.

I’ve had one other threesome with two men and the experience was similar. I was a lot younger and my BF at the time left me in a room with a stranger to try to get him off. So I really wanted to get this experience right because I think it can be very pleasurable and I thought I could trust my current boyfriend with that. Wrong. I’ve had threesomes with two women and those experiences were really enjoyable and respectful.

I don’t think some of you can understand the terror that comes when you are naked with two men and neither really gives a fuck about your boundaries or what you want. It is a fucking nightmare.

I appreciate Dan looking at the bigger issue in my letter. That I’m with a fucking asshole who deserves to be alone. Dan is a real man.

38

Fichu @32, my theory was that this was a fantasy of his too perhaps, or maybe TODUMP was hot and he thought, sure, I'll give banging this hot gal while her boyfriend watches a try, sounds hot. But he was new to this sort of thing ("he was nervous") and Mr TODUMP's demanding bedside manner didn't help put him at ease. Or as Traffic @34 says, he expected a threesome and what he got was a starring role in some dude's private porno. I don't have a penis but my understanding is that nothing deflates a penis like an unreasonable expectation for an erect penis.

Whirled @33, perhaps she didn't get up and leave because they were at her/their home? "I'm leaving now, bye" seems a lot more polite than "please leave now."

39

BucksFan @37, thanks for checking in. But wait -- who's making it sound like you and your boyfriend lured this man to your room to torment him? Nobody said that. Everyone's blaming your boyfriend. (Traffic's comment @25 was a GENERAL observation on how threesomes can go wrong for thirds.)

Thank you for sharing some more details about how the third was also an asshole. I understand and sympathise about how it can feel like "two against one" when you're naked with two people who are pushing you to abandon your boundaries. In my case it was a man and woman but it was still awful. Yes, DTMFA and never speak to either of these assholes again.

(Prospective cucks, please read BucksFan's post to see why your wives/girlfriends are reticent to indulge you.)

40

Thanks for joining in, BucksFan! (So few letter writers speak up in the comments, it is a rare treat for us.)

It sucks that that nightmare happened to you. I can see why, for your own safety, you'd want to try to end things politely or at least diplomatically. Whereas I wish all you had to do was just be as assertive as they deserved.

It was hard to read your letter without it having a closing paragraph telling us you would dump your atrocious BF. No one should be with someone like him, you deserve infinitely better.

41

Oh, and sorry you had to /see/ that tangent about whether or not the stranger was an asshole. Since we rarely have visits by letter writers, we often feel free to debate details.

I'm guessing that letters that are too long don't get picked, so your instinct to keep it short was probably a good one. But it was great (and so interesting and valuable that it probably would have only helped your letter get picked!) to read the details which confirm that the stranger was an asshole. (Don't take it personally that people were debating whether the stranger was an asshole before reading your proof he was. Heck, it could be worse, commenters very often project all manner of things /into/ letters!)

42

BucksFan: yeah, it sounds like they were both assholes. I mean, even in the first scenario it seemed more like you and 3rd were GGG but not enthused and your bf was the asshole, but with the update I agree that the other guy was a jerk as well (though I LOL'd at "Welcome to the shit show, let’s fight for two hours"). You're definitely right for leaving that, and right for wanting to dump your bf.

In more general terms, that's always a problem with finding a 3rd guy, isn't it? If your man does all the work of finding him, it's probably not gonna be a person you like or are comfortable with (your man probably couldn't even get you shoes or necklace you liked, let alone another dick). But why should you be the one to put in all the work of finding and vetting a guy for an act that is, at it's core, just a favor you're doing for your partner and not something you personally really want to do? Honestly, I've never heard of a woman being happy in a hotwifing situation as a GGG thing. Either she's down for doing all the searching and vetting herself because it's something that she's really into and wants to make happen, or the guy picks the person and she's unhappy, or she picks someone un-enthusiastically and she's not happy AND annoyed that she had to do all the work.

Honestly, I think that there's just no way you can extend GGG to fucking another person you don't particularly want to fuck.

43

BucksFan @ 37 - Thanks for setting the record straight. You are right, with this additional explanation, the third now appears to be quite an asshole himself. But we couldn't see that from your original letter, so it's not that we weren't kind to you; we were just trying to be kinder to the third than Dan, given the limited information you had given us.

Also, we all think you were the victim in this situation. And it's extremely obvious that you weren't responsible for inviting the third into your shit show to fight for two hours (that shit show was, quite clearly, your hopefully-now-ex-boyfriend's doing). I, for instance, merely said about the third "He MIGHT have walked out of there thinking 'Thanks for inviting me to your shitshow!'"

Finally, you say "I don’t think some of you can understand the terror that comes when you are naked with two men and neither really gives a fuck about your boundaries or what you want. It is a fucking nightmare." But the fact of the matter is that some of us understand that perfectly well; indeed, some of us have been there more than once, and some of us didn't always manage to get out of the situation unharmed.

44

To the person/people arguing that the 3rd wasn’t an asshole:
The LW’s perception that he is an asshole is the only opinion that matters here. How about you try trusting women to decide for themselves what constitutes assholery? (And for the record, I kinda think you’re an asshole for doubting her on her the validity of her personal opinion!)

45

I detest violence of any kind, but this letter made me want to go invest in a handgun. A good significant other who truly respects and loves the other person always has the safety and well being of the other floating around in the back of their head. A bad significant other is one who flushes that thought as soon as they get horny. I'm sorry the LW discovered that her now ex-boyfriend* was an asshole in a scary situation and am very glad they were able to get out.

*Dear baby Jesus: Please help her DTMFA like, yesterday. Amen.

46

bravo, Dan! (standing ovation)

47

@37 "I appreciate Dan looking at the bigger issue in my letter. That I’m with a fucking asshole who deserves to be alone. Dan is a real man."

And you are a real woman to understand that now is the time to kick the ex-boyfriend to the curb. By the way, about "boyfriend;" I see the "boy," but the "friend" is missing.

48

Wow everyone seems to love the word asshole. And the word victim is getting thrown around now too. Such polarization.

BDF, I meant that the important stuff should be disclosed immediately in the initial contact, condoms required, it's not about using the woman it's about having MUTUAL fun with the woman, she could also suggest a low stakes meet up first to establish attraction. If she wants to have fun with the third then she should get involved with seeking a third that she can have fun with. She is not a helpless victim and there are ways she can learn to advocate for her own pleasure as well as stop things if someone misbehaves.

Trust is earned, she is not doing anyone any favors by trusting blindly. Some people would often rather have tolerable regular sex then a good romantic relationship. I don't see a helpless victim here. I see a couple selfish men and a woman who has trouble taking care of herself. She cannot engage in a threesome with her boyfriend safely again until he demonstrates that he can learn to take her safety and sexual pleasure seriously.

49

Mshdhdhdbdjdielencbdkowdb @ 44 - It doesn't have to do with trusting WOMEN to decide for themselves what constitutes assholery, it has to do with not trusting fallible human beings to always be right in their impressions, especially in highly stressful situations.

"The LW’s perception that he is an asshole is the only opinion that matters here."

Perception is, by definition, subjective, so no.

And for the record, I kinda think you’re an asshole too. In fact, I'm pretty sure of it. But it matters not one bit, because it's just my perception.

50

Msh @44, OK. I'm a woman and I've decided you're an asshole. ;)

(FWIW, the argument was that from the facts in the letter, there wasn't evidence that the third was an asshole, and there wasn't. The woman in question has since offered more details and I think we all agree he was indeed an asshole. At any rate, the third's behaviour is irrelevant here. The boyfriend is the one who supposedly loved this woman; he's the one who should have had her back in the event of any assholery on the part of their third, and instead he led the assault against her boundaries. That's the real issue and Dan indeed nailed it.)

52

Raindrop @51, I think we now have our objective definition of the word asshole.

53

@48 Philophile
"everyone seems to love the word asshole"

Aw, many of everyone was just debating whether the word had been backed up.

But it did over-simplify compared to your more thoughtful:

"I see a couple selfish men"

But do you really think "selfish" captures the full breadth of what was wrong with their behavior? And that, given that as you said she demonstrated she

"has trouble taking care of herself"

that she should continue to be with this boyfriend as long as she doesn't

"engage in a threesome with her boyfriend safely again until he demonstrates that he can learn to take her safety and sexual pleasure seriously"

I guess being that he seems more than simply "selfish", I think he needs time to work to get to where he's in good enough working order for a relationship with some future person.

Moreover, right now, it seems to me the issues they both have complement each other badly.

54

Raindrop @ 51 - "So much more satisfying, and safer"

Satisfying? Not to everyone. As far as I'm concerned, love and sex are two very different things. I've had sex with thousands, but only loved a handful.

Safer? Would she really be safe in a relationship with just one man if he's not willing to respect her boundaries? Because people who don't respect boundaries in the bedroom also tend not to respect other types of boundaries. And one thing we know, if only from Dan's column, is that the world is full of those types of people.

55

BDF @ 52 FTW (on the subject of what constitutes an asshole)

56

@37 BucksFan
Good for you for not just being open to threesomes, but feeling

"this experience....can be very pleasurable...really enjoyable and respectful"

Please never mind our sex-negative troll raindrop@51.

57

@54: Sure. But in the final analysis more potato chips aren't that satisfying. I think she's finally getting to understand that.

Absolutely safer. My assumption is a man who respects her boundaries, not that current boyfriend.

58

@56: Sex negative? LW said she's in situations that are a "fucking nightmare".

59

@37: "Also, before we got started, I was trying to get to know a little bit more about him, you know, because I’m human and like to know some details about who I’m having sex with. I asked what he does for a living and his response was “I’d rather not get into that.” Kind of an asshole move."

Soft disagree on this. It's totally reasonable for you to want to know more about him, but it's also totally reasonable for him to want to keep his privacy locked down. Everything from "full life story" to "first names only" is a legitimate approach in these situations; you never know who'll turn out to be a stalker, etc.

Of course if you've disclosed info about yourself and he then refuses to do the same, that's a legitimate reason to bring everything to an immediate halt. But then, anything is a legitimate reason to bring everything to a halt. The emergency brake should always be available to all participants to pull anytime, no questions asked (beyond "Are you OK?"), no arguments allowed.

Anyway, glad you're out of a toxic situation (multiple nested toxic situations, in fact).

60

@37/BucksFan: "It’s also an asshole move to want to revert to what may have been his issue in the first place: jerk off and watch porn. But the exciting part would be that he would jerk off onto ME while watching porn. I hinted at stranger that I was tired and maybe we could try another time, but he remained in the bed. Once I said no to watching porn while boyfriend and stranger jerked off on me, he hopped out of bed and left."

If Mr. Third decided to masturbate and watch porn while you lay there, that is bizarre, and yes, along with doing nothing for your sexual pleasure, asshole behavior.

But I do need to add, the idea that masturbation and watching porn somehow destroy a man's ability to get or maintain an erection is also bizarre as it is unfounded.

61

I should have asked: “Dan, how do I politely and SAFELY exit a threesome that isn’t working?” My boyfriend clearly didn’t have my back. And let’s be real, we live in a world where men abuse (emotionally, mentally, physically), or god forbid, kill women who insult their ego. And that is insulting for men: a woman not agreeing to their sexual expectations. I’ve experienced that. I’m not here seeking a victim card, and I’m not here to bash men. But what does a girl do? “911, I’d like to report an emergency: The males in my threesome are being assholes and I’d like you to escort them off the property.” The stranger was attractive, he had my stamp of approval, but for me, looks are irrelevant when someone starts being an asshole. I really think I can enjoy this experience with the right partners, so I know I will try again with different men.

62

I didn’t ask for stranger’s SSN. I didn’t ask where he works. I asked a very general and common question: what do you do for a living? He asked us those questions. So not reciprocating was shady as fuckedy fuck to me. My boyfriend didn’t see that as a red flag.

63

Raindrop @58: -A- situation that was a "fucking nightmare." I have been in situations with ONE man that were a fucking nightmare. Does that mean we should all just be celibate?
Threesomes can be great fun, as BucksFan herself knows from experience. Dan doesn't print letters from people who write in to say, "I just had a threesome and it was amazing!"

Bucks @61, well done for not letting Raindrop's victim blaming get to you. Though you did nothing wrong here, perhaps one thing that you could do differently is not host strangers. That way, if you do want to get up and leave at any point, you won't be leaving a stranger in your bedroom! Another idea might be to have a get-to-know-you meet where sex definitely won't happen. That will scare off some of the guys who want truly anonymous sex with partners they don't have to think of as people. Awesome that you realise there are men out there who have good threesome behaviour -- I've known a few! :)

64

Raindrop @57, aren't two men who respect boundaries safer than one man who doesn't?

65

A Scottish mind is beneficial for interpreting this thread. Most of the comments before LW's clarification seemed to come to the verdict Non Proven.

66

@63: If you're going to comment on my comments, please don't make up things I didn't say. I never said "celibate".

When people are writing in complaining about dangerous situations, logic dictates to avoid such situations.

67

@64: You're assuming I'm saying with that same boyfriend. I'm not. Re-read @57.

68

I'm not re-reading anything, Raindrop. I'm assuming that you're saying that the fact these two guys disrespected her boundaries is her own fault for -gasp!- being up for a threesome in the first place. Fuck that. Do you have the same attitude toward a woman who is raped because "logic" says she shouldn't have worn a short skirt or had a few drinks? You're a troll and logic dictates to ignore every word out of your sex negative mouth.

69

@37 Dan is a real man, could not agree more.

70

@68: I'm not saying its her fault. But she describes being in multiple situations when her boundaries aren't respected and calls it a fucking nightmare.

And then you go spinning up scenarios of what you guess my attitude might be. What's up with that?

You're getting flustered in your replies to me. I must have hit a nerve.

71

@62: "I didn’t ask for stranger’s SSN. I didn’t ask where he works. I asked a very general and common question: what do you do for a living? He asked us those questions. So not reciprocating was shady as fuckedy fuck to me."

if he asked you those questions but wouldn't reciprocate, yes, that's absolutely shady. I already said as much, so I'm not sure where the sarcastic "I didn't ask for his SSN" business is coming from.

Easy examples of someone who'd have good reason to refuse to answer "What do you do for a living": a cop, an elementary-school teacher, a drug dealer, a member of the clergy. But then, obviously, they shouldn't ask the same question themselves.

72

@71: BucksFan is right on this. For those tiresome people you get annoyed at being asked their profession, a polite general industry or self-employed answer should have been the response.

73

@61 'But what does a girl do? “911, I’d like to report an emergency: The males in my threesome are being assholes and I’d like you to escort them off the property.” '

Sort of?

While the cops don't police assholishness, they do come collect people for trespass (when the guest doesn't leave when you tell them they're now unwelcome), domestic dispute (fighting with your resident asshole), domestic disturbance (loudly fighting), sexual assault (when you withdraw consent and they don't back off) or other crimes depending your jurisdiction.

Personally, I prefer to have trusted friends who don't mind hanging out in another room over, if I am going to be otherwise outnumbered by new guests, but when things go wrong the police can often be the less bad alternative.

74

Ok, gonna agree that Raindrop is getting into "shaming" territory here. As for Msh @44, we have a policy of believing sexual assault/harassment victims (of ALL genders, BTW) - but that's not the topic here. Here we're just talking about assholes. And, as BDF demonstrated, if any woman can call anyone an asshole, well, she just called you an asshole so... [shrug].

BucksFan: you weren't at fault, because you can't be faulted for trusting your bf to have your back and also vet properly. That being said, for future MMF threesomes, you're probably gonna be a lot more comfy with the sex-on-the-third-date policy of coffee meeting first, club/drinks/makeout meeting second, nookie on third. I mean, even that's not a guarantee, but it does help weed out some of the crap. Good luck on getting a nice MMF one of these days - people definitely have them.

75

Traffic Spiral: That sounds like a good plan. Thanks for the recommendation.

76

Always amazed by those who conflate obvious advice with shame.

77

@72: If you're saying that lying or offering a generic answer is the socially correct and/or most efficient option in such a situation, I guess I can accept that.

But being asked about one's profession and answering honestly can be a safety issue if you're in a profession where taking part in a threesome could cost you your job, or if your profession makes it easy to find you, ergo stalk or blackmail you.

I highly doubt any of that was going on in this case, and in any event the third party in LW's threesome lost the right to complain when he asked the question himself. But I don't think casual hookups are entitled to know anything at all about your life that doesn't directly impact the sex act in question.

What they ARE entitled to do, however, is to stop sexytime whenever they want and for any reason, including not getting an answer to the "What do you do for a living?" question.

78

Curious, hello darling,
I think that the third was a very common sort of selfish, who asks for things he is unwilling to return (oral sex, releasing personal details) and doesn't treat his sex partners with much concern for their pleasure, and is intent on getting off during his sexual encounters. This doesn't mean that you must engage in bad sex, if you happen to meet a selfish person you'd like to bang. But to make sex ok, you also need to be comfortable asking for the things that will get you off despite the fact that your partner doesn't really care for you, and able to either insist on going first or kindly rejecting the suggestion if you need reciprocation to enjoy it: just don't expect reciprocation. Some people need a partner who at least fakes an interest in their pleasure. If this is the case, the first time someone asks for some favor that they refuse to return, then rule them out as a sex partner.
The boyfriend's behavior was more worrisome to me. It's nearly understandable if he had some reason to believe that they wouldn't use condoms with the third before she announced her boundary that night. It's worrisome that he's talking about another threesome and dismissing her suspicion and discomfort, but it's unclear that she's told him she won't try it again, with this third or with another third, or that she had a really bad time, or that she wants to break up with her boyfriend over this.

It's weird how people will hook up with lovers who seem to bring out their issues, like bullies and doormats wade through the crowd until they find each other and justify each other

I didn't like how BucksFan called people assholes instead of explaining her feelings. And I think that some behavior she labels as asshole is actually unavoidable, guys with condom issues aren't flaccid on purpose. At least she's a Bucks fan.

Sublime, you can dig an orgasmic groove. If you always orgasm with the same stimulation, it can be difficult to orgasm without that stimulation. Pleasurable habits can be hard to break. So I think it's better to explore pleasures than let them become habits.

Raindrop, maybe she can work on having a nice mmf, instead of stop wearing short skirts. I mean, stop having mmfs.

79

I should, and do, admit my own bias. I guess it comes from a lifetime of gay fun with multiples of men but nobody in particular until now later in life. Now I realize what I had missed.

Satisfying lust but neglecting intimacy leaves one jaded. Life is too short.

79

Maybe she can take some martial arts and arrange some back up if she wants to walk around dangerous places at night.

... Telling people to sacrifice their desires is less helpful than helping them realize their desires without anyone getting hurt.

80

Raindrop @ 79a - "Satisfying lust but neglecting intimacy leaves one jaded"

It left YOU jaded. You are not every single male on the planet. Do not project. Your sex-negative views are only valid for one person, and that's you.

81

Well, LW, for what it is worth, I am pretty sure your third had a worse experience than you did.

I have been a third in situations where I thought it was going well and suddenly it was really hard to tell if the couple wanted me to stay or go, or stay and do something else, or just take a little break before continuing, or are doing some sort of role-playing, for example. A lot of couples who do this kind of thing have some weird shit going on that can be quite the torment for the unsuspecting 3rd. You may be kind of assuming people are assholes for not reading your thoughts.

You describe a disaster zone that certainly I wouldn't blame the 3rd for having fled without a thank you ma'am. You and the boyfriend were rude first - it is simply rude towards the 3rd person for a couple to put their drama onto someone else as you did. You were rude by not expressing what you wanted from him (stay or leave) and instead leaving it to him to sorta smell what you wanted him to do. How would you feel about visiting coupled acquaintances who get into a big fight (verbally or with icy stares) while you are there, and yet are encouraging you to hang around for it? That's kinda what it feels like, and I'm sure you would leave as quickly and discreetly as you could, as this guy seems to have done.

Also, guys cannot predict if they will be able to stay hard with a condom (or without, for that matter). The resentment at this that you seem to have was probably obvious to the guy is a big reason why guys go soft in the first place.

82

@Ytterby Be Mine, did he ask the job question though? Someone volunteering personal info doesn't entitle them to the same level of disclosure. I run into this all the time - I am the only one with my first name, origin, profession, etc., in the entire country, and find myself rather uncomfortable with disclosing any of it to another hookup named Josh who works in a restaurant. Yet they expect it.

83

@82: As the LW noted in post #62, yes, the third party asked for their details first ("He asked us those questions"), which I agree makes the guy seem sketchy as hell: you shouldn't ask a question like that if you're not willing to answer it yourself.

And I agree with you, it can be really easy to ID someone with a distinctive profession, name, or both, which can make it unsafe to disclose. Definitely OK to withhold, just not OK to ask and then withhold.

(But of course it's also OK to want a threesome setup that's got an element of friendship, or at least collegiality, where you exchange real names and so forth. Up to everyone involved to negotiate what's comfortable and works for them.)

84

Wrong Ricardo, it could have left me jaded. It's not sex-negative to recognize patterns that cause anxiety. And LW obviously has such anxieties.

85

@Ytterby, @LW, rereading the thread I see I missed the the guest asked the background questions. I agree that it is a no-no to ask information without reciprocation.

In any case, if I seem unsupportive of LW, it is from the background of having been treated rudely as a third in the past. Couples should get their shit in order before visiting their drama on a 3rd, as clearly happened here, which is just rude to the 3rd. If you don't have your shit in order, don't drag someone else into it.

86

Ok, so I think I have this right: Show up with ED medications, condoms are okay but I must state that prior to meeting, no icy stares even when boundaries are crossed by both male parties, call the police, role-play, stay home and only have sex with one partner, no skirts, appear as though I’m enjoying myself more, participate in the selection process, don't ask personal questions, don’t be a bitch to my boyfriend even when he’s being an asshole, but also stop calling people assholes. Also, don’t expect a goodbye after sucking a guy’s dick.

It’s so easy being a woman in 1950. Oh, wait. It isn’t 1950. It’s fucking 2020.

87

@3 I think saying ‘stop trying’ when your just not gonna get hard and the situation has got weird is permissible. Also, maybe he didn’t say good bye cos he was getting the fuck out of dodge, you know.

Third gets a pass. Also, condoms being incompatible with sex for some/most guys is a thing however much sex advice columnists might wish it was not.

88

BucksFan @ 86 - I think you would be a valuable addition to the commentariat here, should you decide to stick around. That was really funny.

Raindrop @ 84 - Well if it didn't even leave you jaded, why the fuck do you presume it would leave anyone else jaded? That is precisely why we say you're sex-negative: even when sex had no negative effect, you say it does.

89

Cocky @ 81 - New commenter BucksFan is the LW, and she gave a lenghtier explanation @ 37 about why she thought the third was/is an asshole. We pretty much all agree with her on that characterization now. Your post reiterates many of the points made before BucksFan intervened, though, so you're not alone in thinking like this after reading just the original letter.

90

@86- here here! i don't know why the comments toward you are so mean, especially since you have been gracious enough to revisit the whole shitshow you went through and people are still being ridiculous about it.

91

BucksFan -- the guys are responsible for their own ED medication. But it is sensible to mention it ahead of time, just like mentioning STI status, most recent test date, condom expectations, and any other information the third might need or want ahead of time.

92

If sounding like a bitch for insisting that people stick to agreed boundaries - on which your consent is predicated - your root problem is clearly that the men with whom you're having sex are rapey pieces of shit. Your boyfriend literally tried to get another man to rape you - to fuck you despite your previously stated objections, which you reiterated in the moment. There's no ambiguity there: he cared more about watching this guy fuck and come in you than he cared about your consent for said fucking. He's not a safe person with whom to have sex (and perhapsnoy to be around at all); dump his ass yesterday.

This isn't a case for politeness, so the explicit question isn't actually relevant to the situation that prompted it. That said, to answer your question, it's easy, "Hey all, I'm glad we tried this, but it's just not working for me; I'm going to go shower and get dressed. If you leave before I'm out, thanks for coming by!"

But you're probably not really looking for a script, because you probably know how to phrase deciding to leave a social situation politely. I suspect what you want is a magical phrase to ensure that the rapey asshole of a(n ex-)boyfriend won't react badly if you exercise agency in ways he dislikes, and there isn't such a phrase, because he's a rapey asshole. All you can do on your end (after dumping his ass and locking down his access to you - if you're worried about him reacting badly to no in the moment, you may be well advised to worry about relatiation when you dump him) is look back and see if there were any red flags you ignored, resolve to do better about breaking up with people who exihibit them right away if so, and work to change our cultural norms so that people (both would-be perpetrators and would-be or actual victims) can better recognize what constitutes sexual assault and understand that it's categorically not okay.

But none of this is anything you did wrong, and I agree with the others that the third sounds like a decentish guy. (The best thing would have been for him to shut your boyfriend down when he tried to get him to fuck you in violation of your stated wishes, kick (ex-)Boyfriend out, and make sure you were safe until you could meet up with a friend or family member, though not wanting to risk becoming a target himself, especially since my read here is that there's a decent chance you would have sided with your rapey boyfriend, is understandable.) The advice about what you can do is practical, not an assignment of culpability; unfortunately, as long as assholes exist, there's no magic way to avoid them entirely, or to simply make them not be assholes. Live, learn, and move on.

93

Addendum: Third is entitled to his boundaries and conditions for sex, too; I don't even agree that insisting on condomless sex and leaving if it's not on offer is an asshole move. LW wasn't any more entitled to have the particular sex she wanted than either of the men were; she's entitled only to not have sex she doesn't want and have sex that's mutually consensual. If he did something like actually call her a bitch as a result, sure, he's an asshole, but agreeing to only have sex under certain conditions - even ill-advised conditions like unprotected sex with strangers - and leaving if that's not on offer is proper boundary behavior, not asshole behavior. We WANT people to leave if what they want - the ONLY thing they want - isn't something the other person is interested in doing, rather than, say, pressuring another person to ignore zir stated boundaries until ze cracks.

94

And then I got to BucksFan's follow-up comment; okay, Third was also an asshole. I wish it were easier to compose my thoughts as I go without the risk of losing them to a bad connection or browser crash - that way I could go back and delete things rendered redundant or incorrect by later comments - but it's already enough of a pain to switch tabs to check parts of the letter and scroll up and down to read comments and then type on my phone without adding in swapping back and forth between a word processing app.

@44: We were disagreeing because it didn't match what was stated, not because of gender. Being a woman doesn't magically make one's perception accurate or insulate one from self-serving or even simply erroneous perception or recall. Shouting "Patriarchy!" to shut down any time someone doesn't automatically agree with a woman's perspective isn't feminism (not least because 100% of women don't agree all the time, so if two women disagree about a matter of fact or jugdment, it's not even an option to believe both women by default), it's just imperious narcissism.

@61: If you need to call the police (and that might be the best option in some cases), go with, "My boyfriend is trying to convince another man he brought over here to rape me." Re: 62, I would not be taking your (ex-)boyfriend's advice concerning what constitutes red flags (you HAVE dumped him, no?).

95

@86
Pick and choose the advice that makes sense, and agrees with your values. Except this advice, which is mandatory.
Lol I'm sorry, I've been down lately. Please don't take it personally.

96

@78/Philophile: "If you always orgasm with the same stimulation, it can be difficult to orgasm without that stimulation. Pleasurable habits can be hard to break."

Maybe, but my perspective concerning women who hold this view about intersection of "masturbation and porn" and men's sexual function are colored by experiences with women who have expressed the same to me, including one case I have mentioned before about a 30- something woman who made this comment after she received 25 minutes of oral sex from me, and I wasn't full erect 5 seconds into her giving a blow job. And five seconds, isn't hyperbole, but a conservative estimate of the actual elapse of time. The blow job then stopped, and I was gone a few minutes later.

97

@5. Ricardo. I agree with you about the third.

This is an easy case generally, however--and one to get indignant about; and Dan's main DTMFA advice about the bf is not wrong.

98

@20. Erica. Yes--she says 'he mostly likes' to watch her fuck when it seems she means 'he mostly likes the idea of watching me fuck...'.

Ah, I'm seeing everyone else has seen and said the same things as me wrt this easy but deplorable case.

99

Raindrop, THIS IS NOT A PATTERN. This is one occasion. There was a second occasion many, many years ago. This is not a pattern of her poor judgement, this is an unfortunate coincidence. You have done nothing but blame and shame here, don't deny it. Thank you for admitting, finally, that you were talking about yourself. What about people who did things the other way round -- after a lifetime of unsatisfying monogamy, found joy and pleasure in unbridled polyamory? What works or doesn't work for you isn't universal and your scolding is unwelcome here.

100

@32. Fichu. The third presumably thought it was going to be fun. The third in an MFM, or a bull, will find having sex with the woman desirable and pleasurable (and maybe mind-opening); this will--usually--be his motivation. A guy in that state could be having fun and still frequently go flaccid, because he's unaccustomed to his new lover or else through nerves. It doesn't mean the sex isn't good.

In this situation, the tension between the couple made the sex decidedly not good; and he got out of there as quickly as possible.

I think you're projecting in your conjecture that the third eg had repressed gay feelings he was attempting to deal with by having straight sex with a man on the bed, in the room. The impression you're giving is that you yourself wouldn't like to have sex with a guy with his wife/partner present. So you suppose the third, in this case, having a wider hinterland of desires and confusions and ambivalences about sex (and sexual identity) than the story supports.