Kudos Dan for setting the priorities straight.
Damn, dude. TIMING.
Just wow. It IS hard to know where to start, but Dan did a great job. Whew.
I love how SHE's "an uninspired lover" but HE'S not bad in bed, he's just too much of a gentleman. Also "She also seems to not remember, or at least not want to remember, when we talked about being upfront and outside relationships?" Considering that he already has one other lover, I gotta say, I'm somewhat skeptical that he was as up-front as he says he was.
But those are really beside the point. Dan's right. You've got 3 kids to look after now, one of them a baby, and you already have one extra-marital partner. If you have any free time at this point you are definitely neglecting some responsibilities somewhere.
Circle back to this once the littlest one is at least potty trained and all the kids are in either school or daycare.
Dan - such a pro: 30 years worth of wisdom. Kudos.
After five years, you couldn't get a little rough and give her what she wants? Man, she needs to dump your ass. I mean, you wanted her to find a guy, so the dude wants out.
Messed up as hell at least Dan pointed you in the right direction.
As a woman who had a baby 2 months ago, I can say that the LW makes it pretty plain that he is not doing his fair share of the work of caring for an infant. I mean "fair share" because if his wife is breastfeeding, there is no way he can do 50% of the job of caring for an infant, but if he's doing as much as he can (and should be doing), than he'd be too exhausted to even consider what he's proposing, let alone sit down and type out a letter to an advice columnist. My libido? Doesn't exist right now at all. Based on the timing with my other kids, it won't be back for several months, and that is fine. We're too busy to even worry about it.
@6 That's what I was thinking! The LW dismisses his wife as not good in bed, but he sounds like he's done nothing to show up for her. She's probably held back because he's treated her desires as an embarrassment. When he talks about being a sappy pile of love, all I can think of is God help the women he dates.
Would it be too pedantic to point out that there appears to be a mis"print" in the title? Shouldn't it be, "New Infant at Home—The Perfect Time to Talk to the Wife about Opening the Relationship, Right?"
Also, I seriously doubt LW's evaluation of his kid's mom: "The mother of my child is very unstable and a master of manipulation."
Translation: "She called me out for some bullshit like this, got upset and finally left when I showed no remorse or desire to change my behavior."
LW married the wrong person (not that I'm at all sure about the nature of the right person), but, then, so did Mr Bennet.
@9 I thought he meant the mother of his first child, not his current wife.
And I'm suspicious of LW's accounting of all this. Sounds like the softboy variant of fuckboy.
@11, I think #9 is saying that they thinkk, given LW’s behavior, he is likely mis characterizing his the mother of the first child (either intentionality or out of immaturity?)
For me, anyway, while the physical exhaustion of a new baby was huge, just as huge was the emotional vulnerability. During pregnancy and for the first few months of the baby's life, I was just not equipped to be independent, to take on the load of protecting myself and the child. For that year or so, I needed to be able to trust that my partner was looking out for all of us. My body and my heart were fully engaged growing the child and becoming a separate person again.
So, yeah, it's about vomiting and backaches and laundry and no sleep and leaky boobs and thrush on the nipples and hormonal roller coaster and being hungry all the time and and and, but just as much it's about knowing that my partner wasn't going anywhere, that he had my back.
This guy doesn't sound like he's ever had anybody's back.
Gonna agree with @9, "crazy" probably means "refused to agree with my Perfectly Logical And Accurate amateur psychoanalysis of what was wrong with her and what she was doing wrong in the relationship."
One of the classic blunders, nearly as well"Never get involved
"I told her that I am polyamorous, but that I wasn't interested in pursuing any other sexual relationships at the moment."
Ugh clicked the wrong thing, the third classic blunder.
Great decision-making all around here. Why is it that “these people” always compound things by having kids? Isn’t it enough to just fuck up your own lives?
"CRAPPED" out a kid? Really, Dan? I know you're not, personally, a fan of vaginas, but to compare having a child to shitting ... that's nasty to both the mother and the child.
@14: Everything you say is true and it is all more relevant than anything I'm going to say. What you describe was all going on for us (by which I mean her). And I was aware of all of it. And yet, since I wasn't / couldn't do the heavy lifting of nursing and midnight feedings and no humans had passed through my sexual organs, there was a, "Hey, why are we so suddenly so disconnected around sex?" reaction within me. But my brain was still plugged in and I had some empathy, so I could figure it out. The LW clearly can't figure it out.
The only bone I'm growing him is that, yes, it sucks to be him and have your pussy supply dry up in the short term. But you, Dan (and ultimately me) are more correct that it sucks even more to be her and he needs to ovary-up and shut the fuck up for at least the first year of parenthood.
l-dub, you are an over-therapized disaster. you are the problem in your life. you've got all the words, and you use them to manipulate others with no care for the emotional wreckage you leave in your wake. stop. please. for everyone's sake. especially those kids. you are demonstrating all the wrong behaviors for them.
you seem to like the big words and the self-care trends. so maybe try some meditation. anything that might lead you to a little compassion is worth a shot.
Was anyone else rolling their eyes by paragraph 2? Also, what is a "silly romantic"?
Get a vasectomy! Now! Good grief, dude. You married someone who you KNEW was not the right person for you. And now you're both polyamorous and demisexual, which seem to me like convenient excuses for wanting to fuck this other person but withhold sex from your wife. Listen to yourself! You also want to recruit her friends to bully her into accepting what you want. I am sorry for her. But you have a new baby that you need to help take care of, so for now, you should continue burdening her with your shitty self. Start by having sex with her again, you cruel jerk, before you ask to do what you're depriving her of with anyone else. If she's feeling like you're meeting her every need -- sexual, child-rearing, housework and otherwise -- she'll be more open to the idea of being monogamish. But ideally you will shelve this indefinitely, not inflict your awful personality on anyone else, try to do your best to have a relationship with the wife you knew was not a good match for you, then when the kid's in school start discussing a mutually beneficial exit strategy. Sheesh.
Mtn @16: "One of the classic blunders, nearly as well"Never get involved
"I told her that I am polyamorous, but that I wasn't interested in pursuing any other sexual relationships at the moment."
Yes! That jumped out at me too. You know what that is? GASLIGHTING. And his ex is a "master manipulator"?? Dude, you told this woman that you were going to be monogamous with her, at least that's what anyone in their right mind would hear. Then when she has a new baby, you spring "but you said you were open to poly" on her?? Nope nope nope, dude.
Guy sounds like his hero is Franklin Veaux.
David @21, he's not bothered that the "pussy supply has dried up," since he is conveniently demisexual; she's the one who's missing the sex. "I'm about 95% demisexual, so when our emotional bond is weak, I tend towards asexuality and don't miss the sex that much. I believe she misses the sex and the connection that provides, and while she is turned on by my body, she isn't turned on by my personality."
Also, see in that paragraph how HE has decided what it is she wants and needs? This guy's a CPOS - controlling piece of shit. This poor woman has made the kid mistake twice with horrible men. Actually, I hope SINS does show his true colours by bringing up an open relationship now, perhaps that will prod her to start thinking about her exit strategy, and why she chooses these horrible partners.
Master manipulator, uh?
BDF @25: "get a vasectomy?" How cruel! He clearly states that his dream is to have a child that he AND his S/O could both be full-time parents for (which I'm guessing means he doesn't ever want a day where he's solely responsible for his kids without having a woman around to nanny them) - so obviously he just needs to keep impregnating new women, then ditching them once they too turn out to be psychos, or unimaginative lovers unreasonable enough to object to him screwing around on them, and looking for the next woman!
How can you suggest he deprive him of this?
On the other hand, LW, if you do bring this up with your wife now, you'll have plenty of time for the Unexpected Someone after your divorce.
Also, what's the bet that the 'one of her friends' the LW has in mind to bring in for support and the Unexpected Someone are the same person?
Pan @30: Ha! Good call. Also, anyone reckon his reference to "literal" trials means he has a criminal record? This guy gets worse and worse the closer you look.
Honestly, I think the biggest argument against opening up this relationship is that it means inflicting this guy on yet more people.
Gotta second @Coryleah. It was a horrifying letter and a great response. But “crapped out” a kid?That’s pretty rank wording.
"we are both fully committed to staying in the relationship, even if it kills us. "
His ex wife was the drama hound?
"Master manipulator" was the first red flag for me. Calling ex wife's concerns "drama".
Ex husband was an alcoholic and didn't keep his word, at least he did something truly unethical, it's more clear he's being bashed on the grounds of his actions. New husband seems like he can't keep his promises either though. SINS is shit talking everyone and acts like he's the victim because he doesn't want to be monogamous or stay as devoted to child care after creating.. another.. kid.
And his question is if he should turn to her friends to support him in his desire to fuck others. After blaring Savage Love at her didn't work. OMG. This guy is completely unable to have a calm fair conversation about both of their needs, actually listen to her words instead of guessing how she feels, and planning ways he can meet her needs better as well as asking her to meet his needs better.
"there is someone that I want to pursue a relationship with ... but I haven't pursued it fully"
But he's too busy working on cheating on his wife who is taking care of his new baby.
"I don't want to cause her any trauma by just bulldozing my way through the issue."
Lemme guess.. 'But I can't stand monogamy anymore after 6 years and even if she did just have my child, if I don't bulldoze her about this like a master manipulator I'm just going to cheat or divorce and that's worse right?'
"We are both fully committed to staying in the relationship, even if it kills us."
And they say romance is dead.
Dan routinely invokes excrement where it shouldn't be, and it grosses me out and drives me crazy. I've heard him say "crapped out a kid" dozens of times over the years, and as a person who has given birth, it's not funny, it's not cute; it's just juvenile.
But the ones that bug me more are when he says, "fuck the shit out of xxx" or "eat the shit out of her pussy." I note that he never says "suck the shit out of his dick," which suggests that this language is gendered, but that's not even my main objection. My main objection is that I don't like to associate poop or pooping with any type of sex act unless that IS the specific sex act. I don't understand why Dan resorts to that locution, but I don't expect him to change it anytime soon.
I would love it if a psych exam were required to marry or to keep your kids. But this would only work if the state could give kids a good start when the parents failed a psych exam.
nocute @37: My sense is that Dan uses the expression "crapped out a kid" in precisely this scenario: where LW has created a child and is now whinging about their sex life; as if the birth of the child weren't the big deal that it is. It's directed at the LW's selfishness.
Phi @35, there's also this gem: "We also specifically said that if we ever wanted to pursue an outside relationship, we just needed to be upfront about it." Oh, really? "WE" said that? Or did HE say that then refuse to listen to her difference of opinion on the topic?
It's rare when the commentariat is 100% agreed that a LW is a douchebag. It says something that this is one of those times. Hope SINS reads these comments and takes them as the smack with the clue stick that they are.
239: fubar, you may be right, and I'm not about to do a deep Google-search dive, but I have distinct memories of Dan saying, "crapped out a kid," frequently when he's trying to say that a woman's recently post-partum body isn't necessarily ready to have sex right away--or in Dan's words, "get the shit fucked out of her," right away.
I wish I could see his phrasing this time as a subtle commentary on this lw's attitude, but I am not inclined to give Dan that much credit in this particular instance.
I mean... aside from all the obvious stuff about the new baby and how selfish this guy seems, what about this weird juxtaposition of him thinking their relationship needs to be more accommodating of his sexual preferences with stating that he's a sappy sweet lover as an unchangeable fact?
@Agony put it best: "This guy doesn't sound like he's ever had anybody's back."
I've known guys like this. Guys so self-absorbed and toxic, they seem completely oblivious to their own destructive behaviour and attitudes. They spend all their emotional and psychological energy trying to cook up ways to manipulate situations and people to serve their needs and their needs only. They've never given a real moment's thought to anyone else's needs.
I weep for that poor child.
"I would love it if a psych exam were required to marry or to keep your kids. But this would only work if the state could give kids a good start when the parents failed a psych exam."
I would love it if being psychologically healthy were required to have kids. But that would only work if the society could start to produce adults who could pass one.
Pan @ 30 - Yes - highly likely and nice catch
BDF @ 40 totally agree - can't recall the last time I saw such unanimous responses to a LW
I agree with @20, @33, @37 etc. this is not the first time Dan has said “crapped out a kid”. I cringe every time. I wish he’d stop. I don’t care about context. Dan, stop saying it, please!
She isn’t attracted to his personality. Imagine that!
nocute @41: I'd agree that that use of the phrase would be cringeworthy. Perhaps I've blocked it out. I do that sometimes.
good job dan, solid advice
THIS IS WHY EVERYONE HATES YOU "POLY PEOPLE" this right here: "I have one other person that I consider a long-term partner, but he's male (and therefore, strangely, not a threat to her) and we don't have a sexual relationship, just a very close bond. She said that she's not poly and not interested in the lifestyle"
ok so in no way is your relationship poly, not only do you not have outside partners but also your monogamous wife is not into it from the beginning in your own words.
Sorry hunny i cant watch the baby i have to go out with my male partner but dont worry we dont have sex
@14 and @22 yep. And & the whole comment thread but also the crapped out a kid cringe. Dan did a perfect response otherwise. Those of us that give birth are pretty not a fan of that phrasing.
The thing is, this type of dude will read the response and comments and think he must not have expressed himself properly, or he left out this detail, or oh if he could just explain a little more. Because he has the ability to articulate and introspect on some things, he thinks he’s the master at it, and doesn’t actually list to what other people are saying. Maybe it’s not intentionally manipulative or shitty dude, but it is. Even with the missing details, etc. just stop, and listen to Dan, listen to the comments. You’re really, really selfish. You don’t think you are cause you do nice, loving things for people, right? But it’s always filtered through the lens of what it gets you at the end of the day. You don’t need a random counselor or therapist, you need a capital P Professional. You rationalize EVERYTHING. Most people rationalize, but some apply it in twisted ways to everything in their favor to get the outcomes (even like justifications) they want. This is everywhere in your letter. You are trying to convince us with inserted details you’ve used to convince yourself- and it didn’t work. Not on Dan, not on anyone. The only person you’ve convinced is yourself, which is why I’m afraid you won’t listen.
It won’t hurt (lies, actually it should hurt), to reread your letter, Dans response, and the comments and try to really understand the advice you’ve been given. Don’t get defensive.
He wants to be with Unexpected Someone and not his wife, but can't face the guilt of actually forming the thought to himself. Instead he buries his feelings under a morass of heavily self-deceiving, pseudo-informed or -enlightened cod-knowledge about poly, monogamish-amy (?) and Savage's podcasts.
It's probably not ethical for him right now to be with Unexpected Woman (even if she wants it), not with his wife.
He should sleep in his crappy bed--to continue with Dan's crap metaphor-- ... or do some housekeeping...?
Neither he nor his wife are feeling emotionally fulfilled (that is, loved). I think he should, then, love his wife in offering her support and doing his damndest with the childcare. He should make his commitment to her clear--if he can, honestly. Neither of them are sexually fulfilled, either. She wants it rough and he wants it moony. Possibly they are not getting a huge amount right now; but in order to get it at all, and it seems like it would do him good to get it, he should be the one deferring, and give it to her rough in their spare moments.
Could he move to poly at some stage in the future? Perhaps. But it would be a way of living with, putting a good face on, all his previous decisions about when and with whom to have kids. It might be more adult just to declare they were bad decisions. This could lead to divorce once more--and he might have to face that. I think his close friendship / relationship with his male friend, which doesn't threaten his wife, is giving him a misleading idea that he is already doing some sort of emotionally demanding poly.
Didn't we (collectively) discuss the "crapped out a kid" language a few years back? I can't quite recall.
I can't believe that no one else thinks that this might be at least 90% fake?
So much is wrong with this awful LW. The lack of empathy, the lack of effort to be nice to his wife or please her in any way is just the worst. The cold 'logical' rationalizations.
LW uses a lot of words to say what he consciously can't : he does not like his wife, he resents her for what HE KNEW SHE WAS GOING INTO THIS. I bet this jerk is coldly detaching and stonewalling, oh how convenient he uses demisexuality as an excuse. He's not emotionally fulfilled by her, and it's not his fault he isn't putting in work or energy into the situation or doing anything to fix the relationship, because he just can't -he's demisexual. I'm demisexual too and I resent this asshole for attributing his selfishness, lack of empathy and inconsideration toward his wife as 'demisexuality.'
On behalf of the demisexual community: I hearby cancel LW from appropriating our culture and claiming to be demisexual. How dare he use the word for our community as an excuse from being a selfish piece of shit. Real demisexuals are committed to our relationships and are willing to put in work (being nice to our partners, pitching in, using all the love languages in novel ways to keep the relationship going) and effort with our partner to keep our attachment vibe strong. Fuck him. He abuses the term by claiming it.
Man, I know people like LW. He claims he wants a peaceful, stable life but look at all the drama he's conjuring. Words illustrate how you want to be seen. Actions show who you are and, LW, you are a self-absorbed twit.
Truth is with birthing, some crap can come out at the same time. Though with a C section, it shouldn’t be a problem.
LW, I think Dan and the crew have said enough. I’d only be doubling down, and by now something should have gone in.
Oh @48, as a poly person I agree it's selfish manipulators like SINS who give us all a bad name. See, SINS, you're not just hurting your wife and any other people who have the misfortune to date you.
Qapla @49: "this type of dude will read the response and comments and think he must not have expressed himself properly, or he left out this detail, or oh if he could just explain a little more. Because he has the ability to articulate and introspect on some things, he thinks he’s the master at it, and doesn’t actually list[en] to what other people are saying." Exactly this. He's the guy who puts far too much weight on his own "intelligence," thinks he knows better than the people around him, and that his way is oh-so-enlightened and therefore everyone should be more like him and wouldn't they be happier. SINS, if you are reading, get over yourself. You're not more enlightened or evolved. You're just a selfish jerk with a good vocabulary and the ability to manipulate people. What are the odds your wife is less "intelligent on paper" than you are, so that you can push that supposed imbalance in her face in your efforts to always get your way? Hmm.
SNJ @52, no, because we've known people like this guy. We've read books and listened to podcasts by people like this guy. Namely, this guy: https://www.itrippedonthepolystair.com/
Miss @53, right on. SINS, you are hereby banished from the poly and demi communities for making us all look bad.
@48. ohsnapt. I think he just has a close male friend. He calls this friendship a 'relationship' to put on a show of not being homophobic. Of course he is not actually living in a poly way.
He needs to put aside words like 'demisexual' and 'polyamory' and try to live with some more basic words, more basic truths like--'I don't find my wife attractive', 'I want to be with a woman who is not my wife' and 'I don't like the way my wife has sex'. Without drama, he has to ask what he has to do to meet his responsibilities. The living situation he's chosen for himself is that he has four people, three children, depending on him in some way, and two of the children have a particular need for stability and continuity. It would seem to me he has to make sacrifices--most notably, of the chance of a relationship with the woman he'd rather be with.
First, he should show his wife love and support, including the 'uninspired', mechanical sex she may still need and may be necessary to put fuel in the tank of their marriage. Then he has to stop thinking on behalf of any adult but himself. Like thinking his wife needs a certain kind of sex he can't provide ... so they need to go poly. It's a feint. It's an elaborate rationalisation for why he's right to want to be with someone else. A cheating CPOS would be less tricky.
@49. qapla. You're right that he may not take well to everyone's view of him; and I worry that the unanimity of the page, and the crushingly negative verdict on his character, will not have a good effect. E.g. it could confirm him in his sense of himself as one who thinks and sees more deeply than other; or he could label the commentariat extremists, or claim entitlement to his feelings, or balloon his feelings for his 'Unexpected' soulmate into something so compelling and irresistible he has to rebel against all known norms. I think I'd just say to him, 'come down to earth; put things in terms that an evidently decent person of no avowed sophistication in relationships--a community elder, say--would understand and work out what you would say to someone in the position you find yourself'.
@53 you are not the gatekeeper. there are not 'not real' demisexuals and 'real' demisexuals. there are just people who use the word to describe themselves. and if you think using that word to describe yourself puts you in a class of people that are superior to others, well... you are wrong, very very wrong. and likely at least dipping your toes in the asshole pool yourself for thinking that you are superior because of your word. anyone can be an asshole. it doesn't matter if they use the word demisexual to describe themselves or not.
If men ain't got shit else, they got the audacity
@55 LavaGirl - In fact, crap is supposed to come out during childbirth - it's how a mother passes her gut flora on to her baby. (And the reason your father's shit smells worse than your mother's). C-sections cause problems in this regard, rather than solve them. Biology manages to be both disgusting and fascinating at the same time.
Heh, I remember when my first kid was born. I had just started pushing, and they had me squatting on the floor because that felt good. I shat just a little on the floor and my husband, in what would be a fairly supportive move in other circumstances, to keep me from embarrassed, was pointing it out very discreetly. And by that point in labour, I was just "Don't bother me with silly details, I'm busy here! Nobody cares about that!"
Normally, I'd be pretty embarrassed to shit myself in front of a room full of people, but right then I had other things on my mind.
"She wants a "bad boy" aggressive type and I'm really just a sappy puddle of love. I want a silly romantic, and she's anything but (saying the word love while having sex is a turn-off for her)."
So you're uninterested in figuring out how to fulfill her sexual desires but are uncertain why she isn't feeling "inspired" to fulfill yours?
To me, being a "sappy puddle of love" is when you are focused on the experience of the person you love.
@ Philosophy SDO - The LW's behavior of not attending to do the work to sustain his relationship with his wife and then excusing this shitty behavior because he's 'demisexual' and attracted to unexpected someone is the WORST!
This jerk is rationalizing his shitty behavior because he claims to be 'demisexual.' Neglecting to water your own lawn, and the lawn turns brown and starts to die while coveting your neighbor's lush green lawn across the street does not make a person a 'landscaping engineer.'
Rationalizing neglect and inconsideration of the person you married because you are 'demisexual' and attracted to someone else -is at best delusional and at worst a toxic narcissistic manipulation tactic. Fuck this toxic piece of shit human claiming demisexuality as an excuse to be shitty to his wife.
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