That protest march through downtown yesterday (2020jul19) has got to have been the most counterproductive possible. The ostensible message was "Defund the police" yet the marchers ended up providing clear examples to a majority of observers why the police are necessary. Particularly egregious were when the protestors charged media coverage to try to shut down the free press. More than few associates were saying "This is so bad these must be right-wingers in disguise! y'know the Reichstag fire."


THAT incendiary device was the big fire in the East Precinct building?
I've started bigger fires burning toast!


@1 -- not at all unusual to see far far 'right' wing agents provocatuer disrupting peaceful, Lawful Protest -- hell, they've been doing it ever since J. Edgar "the Friendly Fascist" Hoover took over the FBI.

How else they gonna keep ol' Jim Crow alive?


Any kind of violence, either against people or property, is counterproductive if the goal is to get a majority of people to support your cause. You can say it's 'far right agitators', perhaps. It's more likely the spray paint taggers just find this a great excuse to do more tagging, and then perhaps decide to break a window or two. It's not what people want to see. I certainly support police reform, but I cheer on the police to stop this lawlessness.


I have to think this is largely
Covid-19 boredom - and counterproductive as hell.
Trump gets a major boner doing his Law and Order routine, and all the destructive protests are prime-time footage for FOX.


Why don’t people see that this is a repeat of the 2016 election? I would bet money that “Defund the police!” is part of Trump’s re-election campaign or Russian interference to fuel division. Stop taking the bait (like the Seattle City Council) and focus on defeating Trump.


Government PSYOPS against liberal causes are as old as the hills. The left is incapable of dealing with it. I don't know what the answer is either, but this is just getting stupid.


"As for the people who live in the apartments above the Starbucks where a fire was lit? "My people are being slaughtered in the streets," Nate said. "They can get over it, or get out of their house and join us in the streets."

NOT COOL. This was arson. Innocent people could have been burned to death. People not willing to physically protest shouldn't have to "pay" with this kind of risk to balance out justice.


I was there. It was white men, looking like they were on some mind altering substances doing the destruction, and also white people charging anyone who was recording the violence. Clearly smashing stuff just for fun and hiding behind the black bodies of peaceful protesters. The white guys smashing stuff were really scary and looked like they were itching to actually hurt people. Also that Walgreens fills prescriptions for all kinds of folks not just privileged ones and likely some folks were not able to get needed meds because of this bullshit. What cowards.


1 'That protest march through downtown yesterday (2020jul19) has got to have been the most counterproductive possible.'

Oh no! Did you give them an "F", Mr. Hand? Send a note home to their mommies!


Within every peaceful movement there's a criminal element with alternative motives. The police could easily identify and arrest this group, but they instead stand by and let them destroy, then run to the media to claim how out of control things are. For them lawlessness is about a PR stunt, not public safety.

Property damage is a distraction from the primary message to defund the police, which is why police don't just allow it, but cheer it on. Anything to justify more violent policing against the peaceful protestors and the ability to continue collecting a pay check to not do their job.


Quite a coincidence this vandalism is happening while Trump and DHS are looking for any excuse to invade cities in a blatantly unconstitutional attempt to look tough and in control of something. A summer full of kristallnachts will be a nice prelude to November.


@11 yes David we are at the limits of the shit we are going to tolerate - but in the direct opposite way you are thinking.


@5 -- "It is not clear to me how destruction of things, violence on the part of "protestors", vandalism, and such furthers the Civil rights and Human Dignity of Black Americans."

I suggest you read the referenced article ( Basically it is meant to raise awareness.

But as others have pointed out, it can often be counter productive. While that article is good, it really isn't a guide. It is more of an explanation. It explains why someone would do this -- essentially answering your question.

If I were to write a guide, it would be more like this:

1) Avoid fire. Fire makes it on the news, but (without stating the obvious here) fire can get out of control. Martin Pang is a good example. Yes, that little firework wasn't much, but if it landed on a bunch of papers, it could have started a huge fire.

2) Be creative. This is what Green Peace does, and they have been highly effective.

3) When possible, focus on the people responsible. The attack on the police department was at least focused. The attack on Amazon seems random.

4) In general, be aware that your actions may backfire. This is probably the hardest thing for a lot of these protestors.

I would say in general, the vandalism last night was very counter productive. The fact that all eyes aren't on Portland is fucked up. What is happening in Portland sure looks like fascism to me, and much of America is waking up to that fact. Two days after John Lewis dies, the police perform some Pettus Street Bridge type shit, and to a Navy man, no less.

Even locally this is counter-productive, for the reasons mentioned. Suddenly the police are looking like the good guys, with Best attending a prayer vigil for victims of police violence, while mostly white hooligans violently attack the press and commit arson. This was either the act of frustrated punks or right wingers.

On a lighter note, I find it funny that it took at least three tries for that guy to break the window. It isn't clear whether they actually succeeded (the window looks pretty strong). Nothing looks more pathetic than a wimpy anarchist.


Rich, it's kind of self-evident, but if you'd bothered to ask, that cop would have told you he stuck that fence on the front of his cruiser to deflect the bottles and other shit being thrown at it.

Who are Nate's people, again?


@5 "What I also find distressing is the Leadership of BLM is not denouncing such violence. They are silent. Rich Bored White kids have highjacked BLM."

And yet, I don't see anything in your timeline condemning the police who always stand around with their hands in their pockets while the likes of George Floyd is murdered in cold blood. How convenient for you.

If you had ever participated in a BLM march you would know the first thing they tell the group is not commit criminals acts since it distracts from the message. Pretty much the opposite of the "him them hard!" police statement directed against peaceful protestors.


@3, King 5 newscasters are hardly "agents provocateur" nor were they trying to "keep ol' Jim Crow alive."


It looked to me like they were just recycling some incendiary litter the SPD had left on the streets, by returning it to the police.

Seriously, doesn't anyone get training in why we don't use certain devices in riots? They cause fires.


All but the most die-hard leftists are now in agreement that the property destruction has to stop. And by the way, this ridiculous "they value property, not people" thing is transparently manipulative, bordering on gaslighting. You're not a capitalist zombie if you are against smashed up buildings that will have zero effect on corporations, but will ruin several workdays for low-income labor. You're not a racist to be against carelessly tossing fireworks inside a mutli-use building with human beings inside. You're not a fascist pig because you think mobs of people heading into a family neighborhood to do God-knows-what to the home of a politician who has failed to pass some far-left purity test is a really fucking bad idea.


@14 and 15: Okay, now evaluate your commentary in regard to @10's comments. Are you saying that SPD is deliberately ignoring vandalism when its officers see it? Or are there are undercover provocateurs doing the vandalism to implicate the protesters? Or both?

Consider the logistics, and sheer practically, of what you're implying. If an officer sees someone smashing a window but then goes on, is he "ignoring" the vandalism or simply it's too late for him to take action on that particular incident and goes on to other priorities?

If it's provocateurs, staging smashes at Starbucks and Amazon fits a narrative, but what about Walgreens? That's pretty pathetic isn't it? Imagine SPD doing that. How horrifying. If it's true.

I really hope you're passionate about what you're saying, rather than just indulging in the convenience that the other side can't prove a negative.


The only thing yesterday proved is once again how feckless Seattle leadership really is and that no matter what they do to placate the agitators it will never be enough. When the police is in the wrong the council eagerly deliver 15 minute oratories listing in great detail every grievance. Today only Herbold touched on the yesterdays destruction and even then she hemmed and hawed trying not to level any blame on the actual participants. It really is sad when you can't explicitly state causing massive destruction, injuring public servants and endangering the public is wrong. The only thing more predictable than the councils mental gymnastics is the warped logic Rich uses to justify the actions of his buddies in arms. Really top of his game today.


Some of the highlights from Trump’s interview on Fox:


They need the optics to drum up a false equivalency, while infiltrating the marches and smashing property, egging on the excon methhead juggalo crowd. That way they can attempt to justify smashing your Habeas Corpus Article 1 clause 2-3 rights due to rebellion or war.

Also your 14th amendment rights:
"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

They have committed serious federal violations with these actions, and if people just write them off and enable them, we're all irrevocably damaged.


"Beginner's Guide to Targeted Property Destruction." Oh, you meant a guide to justifying the action. That's fairly lame.

Act up, not out.


Kind of weird how we’re seeing unprecedented rage & violence in the streets on the watch of a president who ran on law & order. He was supposed to make everything great again but the fabric of society is deteriorating before our eyes. All this chaos is a direct consequence of the president’s shabby leadership but somehow this is supposed to be an argument for his reelection.


@21 Thank you for the common sense Schmacky. A really fucking bad idea, indeed.


Ah, for the days before leadership and organization became anathema to the left.


I live in one of the most “leftist” cities in the country and things are pretty chill but that’s beside the point. If trump can’t do anything at all to quell the violence he was presumably elected to stop — and we can all see before our eyes he’s actively making it worse — the law & order argument falls apart. He’s still running the same campaign as 2016, as though he is still some renegade outsider & voters won’t hold him directly accountable for the present state of affairs.

I have no doubt armed forces rounding up protesters in unmarked vans plays well for his sheeple but he needs more than 30% of the population to get re-elected and he continues to do absolutely nothing to gain their support. Most Americans don’t want to live in an authoritarian police state & no one outside of portland has the luxury of giving a rat’s ass what’s happening in Portland when unemployment is at unprecedented heights and people are dying. I didn’t think it was humanly possible to be this tone deaf until now.


Couvis dear, were you home-schooled? You obviously don't know your history.

Poor little dullard.


If believing that makes you feel good then go on with your bad self but the polling data makes it abundantly clear you belong to a shrinking minority. No one in the “heartland” gives a fuck about coastal cities on a good day — in fact the whole point of the “real americans” schtick was that our coastal cities are completely irrelevant to their existence but now we’re being asked to believe “real americans” can’t get enough news about our coastal cities — let alone when they’re unemployed & uninsured during a pandemic. You can’t even keep your own story straight.


@26 - and you can add the 4th amendment to that.


The Boston Tea Party, while a quaint, old-timey reference, is not what gained us freedom from England.


@21 Well-said, Schmacky. Thanks.


We probably shouldn't put it in the history books, Professor dear - or at least not give it the prominence it has traditionally enjoyed. After all, a bunch of those brave "patriots" (who were basically pissed off about a tax) dressed up as Native Americans. It really wasn't our proudest moment, and it's spawned all sort of stupid American mythology.

But what's happening in Seattle is just sophomoric. Smashing windows just to smash windows. It may make some people feel good, but it is to BLM what not wearing a mask is to the containment of Covid is. just a mob.


Consider a virtual margarita being delivered to your table!


@42 - actually, the Tea Party didn't call themselves that at first. It was a bit of a back-fill. see:

Also the guy with the teabag on his hat is the biggest dork ever.


@45 refers 44.


"To say that POC have to please white people rhetorically is to say that political change only happens when white people care. It’s saying that white people are in power, that white people don’t experience the police this way, that white people don’t care about the experiences of POC. And that is the BLM argument.

So, if you argue that POC who are saying that a lot of white people just aren’t willing to acknowledge the racism of our culture need to defer to the feelings of white people for anything to change, you’re proving them right."


Hi, I'm white. Let me tell you how and why and under what conditions you should protest for me to empathize with your cause, which I understand way better than you.


@40 - To be fair, if we were basking in Her Majesty's royal authority today, the country would probably be less fucked up than it is.

But then my ancestors were loyalists who had to flee to Canada once those ruffian rebels prevailed in 1783, so maybe I'm biased...


Professor dear, what exactly do you expect these continuing protests to achieve? I’ll tell you what I think they achieve: more money for the cops - both the department and the Individual officers. An overtime shift on the SPD is probably at least $75 an hour. All these continuing protests are doing is giving officers some nice fat paychecks, and that takes away from other city programs.

By this time, the BLM movement - which has very much made its point and has broad public support - should be moving to the legislative phase.

You wish to redirect funds from policing to public safety here in Seattle? Here’s how:

1) Stop busting stuff

1) Demand the council decertify SPOG. Annul their current contract. (That will involve a lawsuit),

2) Start figuring out what groups should take over the duties we no longer want the police to do. What departments will be responsible for what, and how much money they need. Believe it or not, the city budget is quite exact in what funds can and cannot be spent, and on what. It’s also biannual.

2) Enact the legislation to start making those changes.

4) Require everyone in SPD - uniformed and “civilian - to reapply for their jobs.

All of this takes hard work. Boring work. Acting like an adults, and holding our electeds - even the “progressive” darlings - accountable.

But if you want to just keep playing Les Miserables - and getting played by the Feds - by all means have at it.


Oh dear, my numbering is all messed up.

Mrs Vel-DuRay regrets the error.



Mrs. Vel-DuRay,

How can well-meaning peaceful BLM protesters stop people from coopting their protests and busting stuff? If an undercover cop or a bunch of 'antifa' infiltrators decide to smash a window and make you a nervous nelly about the existential threat to property which you no doubt have in your family, doesn't that just make you lose sight of the protests and the legislative solutions that cannot be enacted under this administration, yet the racial violence and tensions worsen under Trump? Why do you expect people to put on the most noble and tolerant and peaceful face when they are being crushed and shot and disappeared because others coopt the overarching movement with destruction into a self-fulfilling prophecy for lack of support and action by white folks, who legislate?


Garb dear, you are assuming I propose a national resolution. I am not. I am addressing the local situation.

BLM should denounce the protests and move to the legislative phase. That gives them a seat at the table, which has always been the way real change has been enacted in Seattle (first you protest, then you claim your power) For as dopey as the City Council is, I think they would be amenable to change, but someone needs to develop a plan - they are not capable of that.

In any event, even the most carefree review of our council will show that it is not entirely composed of “white people who legislate” . That’s just an excuse you fall back on.

Or, like I said, just keep playing. I can assure you that I am not threatened by what’s going on. I’m bored by it. I want to see change, not the same old street theatre.


@56 I wasn't referring to the composition of the local counsel, as Seattle is diverse af. I was referring more to the large-scale changes of Congress, (all but 11 Senators are white and Trump has the ability to militarize the police through the Pentagon with his QAnon appointees : But I suppose it makes more sense to focus on the local matters since this paper concerns city council and municipal and state-wide elections.

Nancy Pelosi authored a Democratic reform package that would ban choke holds and no-knock warrants in drug cases. The bill, titled the Justice in Policing Act, would also require police departments to send the federal government use-of-force data and would create a grant program to allow state attorneys general to independently investigate police misconduct. A racial bias training program would be instituted for all federal police officers, and they would also be required to wear body cameras. The bill does not reduce funding. Trump said he would veto the bill if it passed both houses.

More on what Defunding the Police means from a policy standpoint.


Garb dear, at the time that we find ourselves in, everything has to come from the local level. We can only hope that January brings us a slightly less insane federal government.

But even at that, the best change does come from the ground up, don't you think?


@55 - everything that you are referring to, the beating, the gassing, etc., IS the "stuff getting broken" from the 2016 election. Sometimes things move slowly, but there you go. MAGAts have consequences.


Oh, how you do prattle on, Professor. It's sweet to see you've kept your undergraduate fervor.

In the meantime, the police payroll keeps growing. I bet we'll see more than a few officers top the list of highest paid city employees this year!

In the meantime, and strictly for fun, let's talk about the progress that BLM has made into actually changing the police force.

Well, they got an empty fire station. That's something, isn't it?


Professor dear, calm yourself. You’re overwrought.

So, are you saying that black people lack the intellect and/or drive to get involved in the political process? That they’re only good for marching and breaking windows? That there is no goal of BLM, just the status quo? That only white people can pass laws? I really don’t understand where you are coming from. It all sounds terribly retrograde to me.


Oh great. A bunch of white spoiled brats using the cover of black people to break stuff and provoke the police. When they grow up they will be the abuser who kills his wife because she made him angry and blame it on a black intruder. Fuck them. Hope the National Guard comes in and tosses them all in the slammer. Keep the feds out of it. We don't need BLM being used to make Trump look good to the idiots in the heartland who have no idea what enablers they are to racism.

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