Re: Counting Queers


@102: Gays are hot. One word: yaoi.
@102 actually gays are often quite good looking yet lesbians are....well usually ugly. Maybe that's nature at work because I've never met a lesbian and thought 'that's a shame' whereas I hear that's a common refrain among the ladies.
@103, I was joking, making fun of the proclivities of the Typical Straight Male.
@104, I am filing a complaint with the Sexual Orientation Police if you don't find two good looking women (however you define good looking) having sex hot. Your straight man license may or may not be revoked.

"Much as I disagree with SB on most issues, I've got to give him points on that last post. I have gay friends. I've had quite a few of them over the years, in fact. But I have yet to meet one gay person who was comfortable with the fact that I'm straight. In their minds, I'm always some repressed idiot who's trying to pretend that a "gay" side of me doesn't exist."

I'm gay. And I don't give a shit if you're straight.

If every single gay person you meet thinks you're gay, something about you* (and not gayness) is the most likely reason. Most gay people are aware of the reality of straight folks. It's obvious... We don't want to be with women. So we get that if someone is exclusively attracted to women, they aren't going to be into us.

*The something about you could be any number of things. Maybe you're so hot they wish you're gay. Or maybe you just make friends with a lot of desperate gay people. Or something.

" if you don't find two good looking women (however you define good looking) having sex hot. "

Porn lesbians or real lesbians? 99% of the real lesbians look like they fell down the ugly tree hitting every branch on the way down.

Porn lesbians, though, are right up my alley.
@samktg: I know. But the same weird attraction exists on the other side (why do straight people finds hot people who don't give a shit about them?) even though it touches less people.
@104 I don't know that many gay people (a few friends and a female cousin) but none of them seems to be way better looking than the average, nor way less good looking.
@108, You are being purposefully obtuse and going out of our way to make snide comments. It's perfectly clear from the quote you pulled from my comment who I'm talking about.
@104.. well thanks rupert.i didn't know you noticed.. although really, pretty is as pretty does.
Ugh, do not feed the troll. They wither and die without nourishing annyoed/furious responses.
I am closet bisexual
"not wearing a condom with a sex partner who doesn't know if their infected or not is stupid behavior gay or straight. "

Actually that's, yet again, scientifically wrong. It's far more dangerous among homosexuals. There's not a study in the US that shows otherwise. I realize we're not allowed to speak such truths, but science is science. If it wasn't, equal numbers of straight men would be getting HIV in the USA as gay men. They are not. Until homosexuals abandon bath house culture and people like Dan Savage stand up and argue that faggotry needs to be replaced by 10 pm bedtimes and PTA meetings, until that happens, gay marriage won't be accepted by reasonable people.
@112, But he looks sooo hungry, I can't resist.

@114, You're a peripatetic one, aren't you. Distracted by the lesbians, back to the gays. Poor reading comprehension, too; higher rates of STIs among gays has not been contested, just your understanding of the meaning of why. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by declaring I am wrong about condom usage. It doesn't matter if you're in a bath house, a flop house, or the marriage bed- a properly used condom is highly effective. To not use one when you are uncertain of your partner's infection status, regardless of orientation or gender, is foolish.

Also, the reasonable people of five states as well as DC have overcome their fear of "faggotry" and now enjoy marriage equality. The rest of the country will catch up, even a few conservatives like yourself are starting to come out for marriage equality. Rather than waste your time on a liberal blog debating the efficacy of condoms and safety of gay sex, why don't you take your little revelation about the benefits for society of marriage equality and wrassle it out on some conservablog?
Seattleblues strikes me as the kind of conservative who will denounce the Supreme Court, claim that the majority of Americans are brainwashed - and then accuse liberals of hating America.
@116: Agreed! Oh wait, I want to play too! How about this one?

Seattleblues strikes me as the kind of conservative that:
Insists an invitation to the White House to be an insult under the current administration, but would tell his opposite number on the left to "respect the office if not the man" were it a Republican in power.

Actually, you've gotten it backwards.

Liberals are the ones who constantly say that the majority of their fellow citizens are stupid, ill educated, brainwashed and so on. Since the majority of Americans favor my politics, I'd hardly be likely to say any of those things.

The Supreme Court has made some bad decision. Plessy v Ferguson or Roe v Wade were appalling exercises of judicial activism replacing intelligent legal analysis. But they are the final arbiters of law in this nation. Until and unless their decisions are reversed as with Plessy and likely with Roe they are the law of the land.

And if liberals hated our economic system but admired our people and legal systems, I could say they were dissenting patriots. If they hated our economic system and thought their fellow citizens too stupid too understand the high thinking liberals engage in, I could say they were patriots (if arrogant and rude ones.) But you don't. You hate our medical system. You hate our center right political majorities. You hate our economic systems, and the way we use energy and the way we design cities. Basically, you hate this country.
@118: If we hated this country, would we really be trying to improve it?
@SB, The medical system is broken, the economic system is broken, the education system is broken, how we acquire energy and use it is broken, the way we design cities is broken, our politics are broken. As is, these systems benefit a slim minority of oligarchs and plutocrats and disenfranchise everyone else, what is there to like? The top 1% of Americans control about a third of the wealth in the US, and the top 20% control about 85% of the wealth. We aspire to a just and equitable society, no? How is that concentration of wealth just or equitable? Why is a system which maintains a perpetual underclass of 4 fifths of Americans acceptable? As a nation we can afford to provide a level playing field for all of our citizens. We can afford to create the circumstances under which a meritocracy can flourish. You're a bootstrap type fellow, right? Everyone should be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, no? I'd be fine with that, too, but only a fifth of Americans can afford a pair of boots, the other 245 million Americans scrabble about for the leftover 15% of the wealth. Clearly, you hate America, and the majority of people living in America. You hate the Americans that never had a chance at a better life, and you hate their children too, who will likely never get a chance at a better life either. By default, you hate the 20% of American "barbarians", "dogs" and "gorillas" who's views fall on the opposite end of the political spectrum as yours, and the other 40% of moderate Americans who also view many of America's systems as broken as well. Basically, you hate this country.

Seattleblues, declaring that we hate America is a lazy way to discount our beliefs and derail debate. You've written that you come to these threads looking for civil political and social debate, but how can you expect that when you make these ridiculous claims, or alternately claim you visit SLOG to hold the barbarians back?
@119, You're just saying that, pudding head. Libruls are eeeeeevil.
I came to say something, but @24 said it for me, so, Amen.

Please don't use logic. It's just not fair.
Liberals are the ones who constantly say that the majority of their fellow citizens are stupid, ill educated, brainwashed and so on.

This from someone who regularly comes here to tell people how stupid they are. This may surprise you, Seattleblues, but your financial superiority does not equal either intellectual or moral superiority. You and your hero Berlusconi seem to have that delusion in common.

Before you go accusing others of the very sins you're guilty of, why not try a little honesty? Maybe you should spend a little less time sitting in your villa feeling smug about how much better you are than most other people and a little more time looking at the facts.
"Since the majority of Americans favor my politics, I'd hardly be likely to say any of those things."

In that case, I guess the Republican Party should win the next election. If only they get the right candidates this time. Maybe a war hero with decades of political experience, and a popular governor that manages to be glamorous and relatable at the same time. Then they'll be sure to win.
@ 120,

One of the best comments I've ever read. I'm going to print that out to hand to anyone who uses that tired old accusation.

Quick story: started becoming interested in politics in college, about the time Bush began making the case for invading Iraq. At my first demonstration, I mostly remember how some people truly thought we hated America. Genuinley hated it, the whole package, democracy on down. It never occured to them, and I doubt it has even now with history on our side, that we worried what wound up happening would in fact happen, that the war was based on lies, and poor kids would die so rich men could become richer.
@Liberals hating America

At the beginning no doubt liberal thought was about love of country so deep that the errors and injustices in our system cried out for redress.

But when all I hear from the left is how Germany or France or Canada is so much better than we are I can't help but wonder why they stay. If I didn't honestly believe that the United States was the best place to live on the planet, I'd just stay in Italy, or buy a place inexpensively in one of the former Soviet satellite states or South America. But I do. Call it jingoism, or American exceptionalism, or whatever you like. Look down your collective noses at the unsophisticated rube who bought all the stuff he was taught in high school civics classes. Honestly, that's your right, no matter how wrong you are about it.

This country is the most beautiful place I've ever seen in extensive travelling, with a range of geography and amazing scenery a person couldn't exhaust in 3 lifetimes. It's a place where anyone can be successful, however they measure the term, if they do the work to be. It is a place where people with such disparate views as you folks and I can air those views without fear of repercussion. We've had 43 peaceful transfers of power in this country, and no matter how vocal we are about our politics the very freedom to express ourselves about them keep it that way. Founded on some of the most eloquently written statements of principle ever put to paper, we remain a nation dedicated to notions of individual liberty and equity whether we occasionally miss the mark or not.

Absolutely we could be better, and liberals provide the impetus to do so, for which even conservatives should be grateful. Without conservative resistance to change preventing instability we'd descend into chaos, for which liberals should be grateful. It just seems that the current crop of liberals don't recognize all the reasons why they should be thankful for the amazing luck or providence of being born or attaining the status of American citizens.

Silvio Berlusconi is what anyone might expect of Italian politics. I don't vote there, but neither do a lot of Italians. Italians are wonderful companions, very amusing and pleasant generally and understand very well that one works to live, not the other way round. They are expert at the art of living. But after a couple millenia of political intrigue they're cynical about politics and politicians. All of which is how I imagine something like Berlusconi happens.

Our house is tiny, in a remote village and in an area blessedly unpopular with tourists. The price of purchase, remodel and furnishing was under $60,000. George Clooney has a villa. We don't.

Money is one small way of measuring a particular aspect of anyones life. Simply having it or lacking it says little about how good or bad, moral or immoral a person is. Which is good, since I don't have very much of it. I work 7 or 8 months in the year to live as we enjoy living, but of course I do still need to work for that living. I could work more and earn more, but choose to live life along the way instead. No moral superiority. No butler bringing my evening campari to me in the west rose garden. No piles of cash I sit and count of any evening. Just a barely middle class guy with a wife and kids and a determination to make time to enjoy my family.
Like I said in my post at #119, the fact that liberals continue to work towards improving America is proof enough that we love this country. If we didn't, those of us with the means to do so would light out for Europe or Canada. That we would rather stay and put our backs into lifting this country up, rather than take the easy choice of abandoning her, says a great deal.
"Without conservative resistance to change preventing instability we'd descend into chaos, for which liberals should be grateful."
I am grateful. Conservatism, ideally, keeps good ideas in place, while liberalism, ideally, introduces new good ideas into the system. Hell, that's pretty much what you said in your last paragraph. They're two sides of a coin, in my book, and we need both of them for our type of democracy to function.
My problem is that, of late, our conservative party has stopped worrying about keeping good ideas in place and has followed instead a policy of corporate greed, religious fanaticism, and a mulish insistence on staying in power, regardless of the best interests of their constituents.
I share your appreciation for the vast natural treasures of this country. I'd like for you to think about which party wants to preserve them for the enjoyment of our descendants and which party wants to gut them for immediate profit.

Do you understand why people are flabbergasted by your home in Europe?
$60,000? Most families I know have some combination of cars, boats or RV's that cost that much or more, and they're depreciating assets. I know one couple who spent nearly that much on their wedding. Some buy television sets for thousands of dollars, or travel to Vegas or Hawaii. Some have clothing budgets that would astound me. Okay. It's their money. They have every right to choose how to spend it.

Our choice was to keep a home in the US that's paid for and reasonable for taxes. Our cars cost $6000 between them and they've lasted 4 and 6 years respectively with no sign of needing replacement. (They're Fords, so they run forever with little repair or maintenance costs.) We never carry credit card balances and keep grocery and clothing and so on within a stated budget. And because of this, we can afford a home in Italy and the time to enjoy it.

I'm not saying everyone should do it or that it should be a priority for them. I don't want a $50,000 SUV or pick-up or luxury sedan, and they might. My sailboat cost a couple thousand dollars, and does everything for me that the neighbors in the marina get from their hundred thousand dollar vessels. (Actually I lie. Mine leaves her slip fairly often, while most of theirs don't.) Nothing would induce me to spend future income on a television set (or indeed to buy one at all) or vacation or any of the other things people rack up on their credit cards. It's hardly a badge of extreme wealth for goodness sake for us to have an inexpensive home in Italy. It's just our chosen priority.
@134, Another possibility is that your acquaintances with all the toys are enormously in debt. Maybe it's not really their money they're spending. Not all that many Americans can have all those things while spending within their means.

You're missing the real point. Why, in every debate, do you feel compelled to bring up your house in Italy or your boat? You seem to be using your material possessions--paltry as you claim they are--to back up your own claims of moral and intellectual superiority. You make broad claims about liberals and how they're corrupting society, but you fail to come up with facts to back up these claims. And previously, when the questions have gotten too tough, you've announced that there's no point in continuing the debate and that you were running off to your house in Italy.

Some of the very people you claim hate America are the ones who stick around and try to make this country better.
I think that idea of "I don't want to pay for these revolting lifestyle choices" is kind of pointless. Of course you don't, and there's a lot of lifestyle choices that *I* don't want to pay for. But the purpose of the United States is not to make dignified purchases and loans.

The point is that in the US we all have to agree to treat each other AS IF we were all equal, even though privately we may believe that we are not. Some conservatives may end up having some of their tax money go to social services for gay spouses, and some liberals may have their taxes go to abstinence-only education. That's the price we pay for living in a free society where all law-abiding groups get (or should get) dispassionately equal treatment from our government, even those that are antithetical to one another.
Look how well every one is playing with one another! Civility! It's what's for dinner.
@129: I agree with every single word contained within the third paragraph of your post, as well as most of the forth.You describe our nation beautifully. I do not, and have not, ever looked down my nose at anyone for their love of this country. I am the sister, daughter, and girlfriend of veterans representing three different branches of the armed forces, and as a believer in the constitution which they have risked their lives to defend, I belong to both the ACLU and the NRA. You and I are in complete agreement that we, as a nation, are a marvel. And that we could do better.

To quote samktg @120:
The medical system is broken, the economic system is broken, the education system is broken, how we acquire energy and use it is broken, the way we design cities is broken, our politics are broken.

When something you love is broken, you fix it.

You love this country Seattleblues? You believe yourself lucky to be born here? So does every person on this board. Why don't you try working towards helping our nation live up to its ideals, instead of bitching that gay people, or poor people, or brown people, should be excluded.
And now in the spirit of civility, I will forgo my traditional wish for your demise.