SL Letter of the Day: Long Form

Comments

1
Hard to believe this guy's a virgin.
2
I made it up to the part about watching a "delightful movie," assumed he got dumped (by the girl he deemed non-sluttish, of course) and skipped to the end to see Dan set him straight.

That part was great.
3
Did u post that to make us feel your pain in receiving outrageously long letters composed by immature idiots? Who cares what this guy does? #Loser!
4
"I am nerdy and most often described as 'strange' or 'goofy' or 'bizarre'.

I never would have guessed it.
5
STEEEEELLAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!

http://www.tennesseewilliams.net/article…
6
A few final answers: Couldn't say. No clue. Beats me.


Oh yes you can. The guy is a moron and needs to grow up fast if he doesn't want to die a virgin.
7
Props to anyone who actually read all of that; I sure as hell didn't.
8
I couldn't read it all either. Between throwing out a girl for stripping for him, naming the principles of this story "Stella" and "Stanley," and his long windedness, I can only say, solving shit like this is what being in your 20s is all about.
9
A girl strips for you, and you call it "sluttish behavior?" Fuck off, I hope you die a virgin.
10
You don't need to read all of it. The length alone is enough to say "Whatever the situation is, get out." It would seem to me that he "enjoys" these theatrics as much as Stanley and Stella; especially if you consider his prose and pacing. He has made a whole story out of this and he was really writing to Dan just to see if a "happy ending" is within his narrative. (Short answer: No.)
11
I stopped reading at "sluttish." I could have (and would have) told him right there why he has issues with women.
12
TL;DR. Kid, stop looking at your navel!
13
A girl got naked for you and you did not sleep with her? Fucking stupid! Just fucking stupid! Yeah, go beat yourself up!
14
I stopped reading when he called the girl a slut. What an ass.
15
His life story is so riveting and unusual that I couldn't stop reading until about the 3rd paragraph.
16
@10,

He also clearly enjoys fixating on one woman, who he's decided is the woman of his dreams. Extremely unhealthy and shitty behavior.
17
Wow
18
Jeez, and I thought teh gheys were drama queens. Holy fuck.
19
Yeap, way too long. What's your hourly rate, Dan?
20
About half way through reading this letter I ran around my apartment breaking out all the lights with the heel of my slipper.
21
I made it all the way to "Apparently, he became 'emo' and began to slap himself and say he was sorry over and over and over" and then I was laughing too hard to continue. NIGHTMARES
22
Oy vey. Yeah, he definitely lost me at "sluttishness." Sorry, dude, I hope you waste more of your life on this Stella drama. You are definitely not the star of that show.
23
"the last girl undressed herself for me after knowing me for five days. I didn't sleep with her because I was turned off by this sluttish behavior"

This is why you have not, and probably will never be, involved with a sane girl BPOAT.

Also I'm like 99.9% certain the convention in question was an anime convention and all that drama took place while the players were dressed as Final Fantasy characters. For some reason every anime nerd I've ever met that has completely fallen down the japanimation rabbit hole THRIVES on this kind of never-ending social drama.
24
He's 22, he's never had sex, and he was turned OFF by a naked girl? Is... is he sure he's straight?
25
That "sluttish" comment leads me to believe that you're the kind of nerd that thinks he loves and respects women because he puts them on a pedestal. I was interested in someone like that when I was in college, only to be deemed unworthy because I had a liberal view toward sex, i.e. I liked it.
You pine for "Stella" because she's this poor girl you feel like you can rescue and be seen for the true and wonderful man you are. But you're not a man, you're still a boy with romantic delusions colored by your nerdy background.
If you don't want to engage in one-night stands or sleep with someone until your in "love", bully for you, but others wanting those things does not make them objects of derision.
26
Kid really buried the lede with that offhand comment about the girl that took her clothes of for him, didn't he?

I mean, even if you aren't into her and don't want to fuck her, if someone puts herself out there like that FOR YOU, you should be really, really nice to her. That's sort of basic human decency 101. Until you learn that, you don't deserve to get laid.

Seriously, the cast of Streetcar is not your problem...
28
I was smelling the nerd in this guy's writing long before got to the convention. He's a young nerdy man in a big nerdy group of nerdfriends. That kind of thing can be a serious echo chamber, and nerdfriends tend to nerd about angsty nerd things together (anime, roleplaying, comic books), increasing the group drama.

Get some fresh air, man. Stella sounds like she has an even bigger case of nerdfriends tunnel-vision- these men are the only men on Earth and this drama is the only source of entertainment that will let her live up to the high drama of (anime, LARP scenarios, comic book, furry fanfics, Star Trek, whatever it is).

Consider practicing a more colloquial writing style.
29
@25. Exactly. FTW.
30
I read as far as "The story, I feel, is necessary to understanding my crisis," skipped down to the bottom and skimmed some of his questions, then settled in to enjoy Dan's response. LW was wrong about the novel being necessary.
31
I can't believe I read that whole thing. I think my brain is dribbling out my ears, and yet I can't make myself care about anyone in this story. You're all massive drama queens, you in particular seem to vastly overestimate our interest in the exact timeline of your drama, and ten minutes from now the only thing I will remember about this letter is that you called that girl a slut. Because seriously, LW, eat shit for that.
32
Dan has previously given good advice to virgins, which I feel he should bring back for this boy. In the meantime, BPOAT should go get laid. With one of those nice girls who find you attractive enough to make out with. Take off her clothes (with her participation), don't call her a slut, touch each others' genitals, kiss each others' genitals, and generally (but not necessarily on the first date) work your way around to rubbing your genitals together. Stop worrying about other people's lives, and live your own life.
33
Dude, you're Backup Guy. The guy that the girl with the asshole boyfriend keeps around for an ego boost. Movies notwithstanding, Backup Guy doesn't get the girl. But I think you're fine with that, really, because you sound terrified of actual women and actual relationships, so you latch on to this woman you can't have and pass up girls who might actually like you and sleep with you, calling them "sluttish." That girl (the one who stripped) scared the shit out of you, and you demean her rather than just admit that. That sucks, and I hope against hope you didn't actually say that to her face.
34
@16

Also a behavior that, while probably not foreign to the majority of men, seems extremely predominant among nerds.

Maybe it has something to do with fixating on the cheerleader when they were the "loser" in high school. Maybe it's some sort of misplaced belief that they are starring in a "Revenge of the Nerds"-style romantic comedy. Maybe it's a collective head injury.

Who knows? All I can say is, I am a nerd girl who ADORES nerdy boys, and all I'd need to do is stick my arm out at a sci-fi convention to run into one who is still obsessing over "the one that got away."

Also a fun unexplained male nerd behavior: being unconventionally attractive (example: main topics of conversation are physics equations and Dr. Who, body type is best described as "rotund" and has gotten laid by one girl his entire life) rejecting a girl for being "too ugly" for him.

Yep. Happened to me, AFTER dating them for several months. Twice.
35
This letter is 2,665 words. For those of us with little patience, here's a 50 word summary.

I have problems relating to women. I call the ones who like me "sluttish" and wonder why I'm a virgin. I fall for drama queens and wonder why I get into romantic triangles. I feel the need to tell Dan Savage what second base entails. What do I do now?

Whatever English lit program this dude is in needs to either teach him something or kick him out.
36
skip, skip, skip, skip skip...ohh, Dan's bullet #8 is worth reading...

37
@15 "His life story is so riveting and unusual that I couldn't stop reading until about the 3rd paragraph. " HAHAHA

This is such classic Nice Guy(tm), Knight in Shining Armor bullshit. I don't even trust his assessment of Stanley because he's cast Stanley into the roll of the villain, himself as the knight,
Stella as the Damsel in Distress caught under the spell of the villain. Stella is not that into him. He happened to catch her at an opportune time, but she is completely caught up in the grand romance starring her and Stanley. Oh, well, they're kids and in ten years this will all seem very silly.
38
Dibs on the movie rights.
39
For reference sake, here is a picture of me:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/ver…
40
Even aside from the "sluttish" comment, TL:DR dude. I thought you were in early high school until you mentioned that you have a job. Next time you tell this story, condense it. It'd fit into a tiny paragraph without losing anything but silly details that nobody cares about.

"Why do I always get hurt when I involve myself with women?"
Are you in love solely with being in love? You date because of how a *particular* woman makes you feel, not because of the abstract, disconnected feelings it gives.
41
Agree with all the other commenters. This guy is the total cliche of a Nice Guy (R), he even uses all the classic phrases. Aww, poor you, all the girls you want end up picking the bad boy and putting you into the friendzone - whyyy don't those bitches realize that they owe you a fuck? Oh but if a girl wants you then she's a nasty slut, of course.

Grow up, re-examine your life and your own internalized misogyny, and start being the kind of man that a woman would want to be with under normal, drama-free circumstances.
42
@35: I wish I had skipped the letter and just read your summary.
43
1. Everyone, especially Dan, sorry that was so long. You're right, I could have just summarized.

2. I regret using the word sluttish. That only came out of how she was okay that we didn't have any condoms and we barely knew each other.

3. Thank you everyone for the bluntness. It's helping clear my mind.
44
He's just another "Nice Guy". He thinks he deserves to "get the girl" because he's SO damn nice and doesn't mess with sluts and is always there for her, and OMG I'm so much better for you than that jerk, why doesn't she just love MEEEEE?!

Lost all sympathy at the "slut" comment. I hope that girl is getting her fuck on with a trio of Latin hotties in collars at this very moment.
45
OMG. I couldn't even get 1/4 of the way through this. Bor-ing. Or maybe I've just gotten old.
46
You're not in love with Stella. You are in love with a warped idea of Stella.
47
@43, re 2: there are sexytimes things you can safely do without condoms. That'd be my guess as to why the girl was okay with it. Reread all the comments here a few more times.

@Martychan, DAYUM. You're not bi, are you?
48
@43: It's not about the word itself, but your mentality behind it. It is clear you are scared of women. What would be wrong with getting naked and fooling around? Even if (maybe ESPECIALLY if) you just met her? You are twentyfuckingtwo for chrissakes. No condoms? Don't have intercourse!
But I agree with what others said: You were terrified because she demonstrated sexual agency. Back off of your drama and examine your overall fear of women.
49
Real nerds don't go for cheerleaders.
I think that the pedestal thing comes usually from lack of experience. I was being bookish while the bungholes that grow up to be the assholes that everyone likes to bemoan get all the attention were learning that girls have mass, body temperature and enjoy attention, even if it's not "respectful" (hah!).
I suppose that the looks thing comes from the same vein of idealization (though I was never quite that stupid about it). When you don't know what real women look like naked, you tend to expect, well, unreal women.
I've since gotten all old and settled down but if I knew then what I know now, way-hey would things have been different. I'd still shun the cheerleaders, though.
50
MrPhonz (if that is indeed your real name), try the word 'forward' to describe the girl's behavior. Less negative connotations than 'slut' and its derivatives, but still gets your point across. Remember, you could have gone for a lot of options that were safer sex, even without a condom.

I remember a LOT of this kind of drama from my early twenties. If you recognize now the mistakes you're making (which many have pointed out above, no need to repeat), you're that much further along in trying to learn from them.

Don't worry. Once you have a little more experience, you'll figure out what you like, and what you don't. Hopefully, you will start to learn what *she* likes as well, and start to do those things. The 'she' there is some girl who not Stella.
51
Oh, wow. Those are minutes I have lost forever by reading this ... drivel. With his attitude, LW deserves to remain a virgin. In a way, I'm glad he ran away from that - that - that hussy who dared to initiate a sexual encounter. With HIM! If he thought she was a slut merely for that, I'd hate to see what he thinks of women who take pleasure in their sexuality. Whoo-boy.

I wonder if Dan will have the dubious honour of receiving another letter from this drama queen. Dan's readers will probably need to take a day off from work to get through that one.

OTOH, I think I'll take a pass on a sequel. As history has illustrated, they're usually worse than the original. ::groans at the thought::
52
At about what I thought MUST be halfway through this letter, my ADD shorted out my brain synapses and I stopped reading. Then I scrolled down and realized I had been only a QUARTER of the way through the letter, at which point I became glad for my so-called disability and the bullshit it keeps me from having to wade through. I started disliking this guy at "sluttish" and then just wanted to smack the bejesus out of him for being young and dumb. I assume he will grow less dumb as he gets older, but I've always been called overly optimistic.
53
Most. boring. SLLOD. Ever. Jesus Dan! What the hell?
54
@7 +1, gave up after the jump when I saw how long it was.
55
@43

That was almost an apology. Now try this:

"I'm sorry I called that girl a slut. It was terrible thing for me to say, and I have no excuse for it. There is no circumstance that makes it okay for me to use that word as an insult. I will try not to use misogynistic language in the future."

I think @47 and @48 have covered why your excuse is bullshit.
56
@48 and 50: You're right, I apologize for not using a less affronting word. Forward is perfect.

To everyone else who took up an issue with me rejecting a sexual advance, we still got naked and did other 'sexytime' (as someone else put it) things, just no intercourse. I didn't run to the hills as soon as the shirt and pants came off. I don't think I'm afraid of women, but I am taking everything into consideration.

@51: Unlikely, haha, I feel bad already, but I feel like reading through you guys' comments and especially Dan's advice is exactly the slap in the face I needed.
57
Well, BPOAT, you're kind of enabling this shitstorm, in my opinion. Two possibilities:
1. Stella is enjoying all this drama, and keeps gravitating back over to Stanley who I would DEFINITELY say is abusive. (Threatening harm to himself when he is taken to task for being an asshole? CLASSIC emotional hostage-taking.) If this is the case, you need to get the hell out of there like Dan says. If you feel like being a nice guy, tell Stella how woefully unhealthy this is, and advise her to get the hell away from Stanley. (She probably won't take your advice; drama llamas rarely change.)
2. Stella is naive and lovestruck, and doesn't understand that Stanley is a douche big enough to clean out a lady elephant. In this case, get together with Blanche and whatever other of Stella's friends know about her situation and stage an intervention. (If Stella is particularly insecure about her dealings with you, you may want to sit this one out and let her other friends handle things so she doesn't think you're trying to steal her from Stanley.) Hopefully, she'll come to her senses (I suggest bringing some ice water and smelling salts in order to expedite this if need be) and yank Stanley off with a minimum of pain, like a band-aid. (No, that is not a handjob euphemism; she should NOT give him any sexual favors as a goodbye present.) If she does break up with him once and for all (and this includes blocking his phone number and threatening to call the police if she hears from him any more), you need to STAND THE FUCK BACK until she's in a better emotional state. Let HER make a move on YOU when she's ready. Alternatively, you could stop being so damn fixated on her, agree to just be friends (preferably distant friends), and find someone else to date.

Oh, and BPOAT? If a girl who's only known you a few days wants to jump your bones before you're ready to get freaky, let her down easy. Tell her kindly to put her clothes back on and come watch a movie with you. And you damn well better put your arm around her while you're watching. And I thought that I was bad with women. Fuck sake, no wonder you're a virgin.
58
I'm guessing that the young man that provided some oral 4 years ago must not have undressed for him.

I made it to sluttish, than tried to at least skim, but couldn't force myself to give even that much of my attention to this ridiculousness. I like the backstory, I'm a backstory kind of girl. I sometimes find it necessary to give the backstory to explain my lunch choices or other such trivialities. However, this was far too much backstory for something that ultimately doesn't matter. Or at least I don't think it matters. I didn't make it through Dan's response either.
59
@39, this comes to mind:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f226/P…
60
well ..hell then..can i slap the shit out of you too ?..i mean if it would help..
61
@56

So she was good enough to fool around with, but too "slutty" to date? Hello, Madonna-Whore complex.

*headdesk* I'm done with this shit.
62
@61 no, I attempted to pursue it afterwards, and she said we didn't have that 'magical spark's that you have when you're with someone you're meant to be with.

@60 Yes.
63
@56
So let me get this straight... this girl stripped for you... you made out with her and had the non-intercourse fun time, and decided either during or after that she was "too forward."

So her "forwardness" was enough for you to label her "slutty" and "weird/awkward," but enough of a turn-on that you could use her for some make-out time and then go pine after Stella.

I mean... really? REALLY?
64
@62

Wait, wait... you tried to pursue it, even though you found her slut-like tendencies/forwardness a turn-off? If she actually shut YOU down, then why did you make it seem in your letter to Dan that you found HER off-putting??
65
BPOAT

Here's some advice about how to successfully get women interested in you. Remember, things are trickier once you're in the friend zone, but it's possible to get out. Don't apply any of this to your current situation; she sounds like the worst kind of drama and you're better off without her.

For future use:

No white knighting: this will instantly place you back in the middle of the friend zone. You don't want to be there because it can be very difficult to get out.

If you're interested in a woman, be playfully flirtatious/sexual with her. Never desperate, always have swagger, and never give a fuck. To be clear, not giving a fuck is NOT an invitation to be rude, just a way of saying you're confident (you don't give a fuck if she's not interested) and you're not there to solve her fucking relationship problems (you're there for her present not her past). You're interested and you've got the balls to show it, and if she's not interested no big deal because you don't give a fuck. Much greater odds she ends up all over you. If you're desperate/begging/lack confidence/white knighting, she'll have a much easier time turning you down because you're already in the bag.

Remember, next time you dig a girl, play by the only two rules you need to know: (1) no white knighting, and (2) don't give a fuck. This is really some advanced level shit, so use it responsibly.
66
I'm not entirely sure Stella deserves to get labeled as a "drama queen" quite yet--it seems to me pretty possible that she has serious self-esteem issues, is trapped in an (at least) emotionally abusive relationship, and doesn't understand that she deserves better. The big tip-off is that she reacts very angrily and defensively to those who want her to leave him. That, and the classic cycle of mistreatment-apology-more-mistreatment-repeat. This girl needs therapy, not derision. Also, "she'll stop being like this once her friends stop paying attention" is kinda dangerous: even if Stanley himself isn't overtly abusive, she's got all the vulnerabilities to wind up with an abusive guy, and these guys' main strategy is to isolate their victims from friends or other means of support.

Otherwise, TOTALLY agree with everyone about the LW...boy's got some SEEEEEEERIOUS intimacy issues, and every NiceGuy(R) cliche there is. Totally feels he's entitled to whatever girl he wants, resents what he can't have, devalues what he can (and none of these excuses for calling that girl "sluttish" even BEGIN to justify the blatant display of assholery there!), and is about six months away from concluding, "Oh, but I HAVE to be mean to women! They just need men to treat them like shit to find them attractive! I was nice and it didn't work with this one girl so now I'm entitled to hate women forever and question their judgment--after all, this girl didn't want MEEEE!!!!"

Aaaand another thing: this girl is seriously causing you to "lose trust in women"? OMG, total NiceGuy(R) asshole alert! And WHY is she causing you to "lose trust in women"? Because she's in the middle of a very messy breakup and isn't available for you the very minute you want her to be? Who in the world HASN'T been a total wayward mess in the immediate breakup of a significant relationship?!?! And what do you mean by "trust"? A "trustworthy" girl should be totally ready to cater to your needs physically, emotionally, and socially as soon as YOU want her to be there for you, no matter what is going on in her life? The fact that her life is complicated right now inconveniences your sense of entitlement and therefore violates your "trust" (read: egocentric list of needs and wants)?

Dick.
67
AUGH! MRPHONZ! So why on earth do you consider her forward if you were there having sexytime WITH HER. She was not stripping for herself, she was not doing 'everything but' by herself, YOU WERE THERE AND YOU STAYED THERE TO ENJOY SEXYTIME *WITH* HER so where the fuck do you get off calling HER forward? Don't you ever dare make a judgement on someone else like that again.
Grow a pair before you let them out for an airing, ok?
68
more like obtuse part of a triangle
69
@39: Well aren't you a cute, yummy-looking treat!
70
"the last girl undressed herself for me after knowing me for five days. I didn't sleep with her because I was turned off by this sluttish behavior"

stopped reading there. you're an ass. grow up.
71
@34, 39: Yup. Cute indeed.

FWIW, I suspect you were dumped because you didn't look like whatever girl they were pining over. Although giving "too ugly" as the excuse? My gawd, some people should never date.
72
Oh dear, BPOAT. If you re-read this letter in 5 or 10 years, you're gonna be soooooo embarrassed.

(I always cringe reading my journal entries from years ago, but it's all part of growing up, I guess)
73
God, the more details he gives about his interactions with the "slut," the worse it gets! Guy, you are awful! What makes you think you're such a NICE GUY? You don't sound very nice to me. You sound selfish and narcissistic-- god, even your LETTER was selfish and narcissistic just in its length and mind-numbing detail!
74
@39: Whoa, you're super cute! (in the opinion of this ghey). -100 points to douchenerd.

This letter reads like an overlong, badly written, case-study exam question for budding advice columnists. (Sorry, MrPhonz). You need some oxygen (literal and figurative). Go hang out with some people who do not invest all their emotional energy back into a group drama. Or, if that's what you actually enjoy, maybe find a polygamous cult to join, for bonus sexytime?
75
@bpoat - Asperger's much?
76
To everyone,

1. I am not solely fixated on Stella. Additionally, I apologize for using Streetcar. I don't think she's necessarily a drama queen but I agree with Dan that I am being manipulated.

2. As for using the word sluttish, thanks everyone for making me realize that I have some issues I need to work out. I don't have an answer for why I think this girl was sluttish. I feel horrible now, not in a 'oh my god I'ma kill myself way", haha, but more like a "I really need to think about this" way. Thank you.

3. I guess I pursued it because I didn't want to be the guy that makes out with a girl then just forgets about her when it didn't go perfectly. I seriously have no good answer for this. I realize I am digging myself a hole here but I guess you guys are telling me that if I want any kind of healthy relationship I have to dig myself out of that hole before it will happen.
77
Dibs on the movie rights.

I don't think ABC puts on After-School Specials anymore, do they?
78
@76:

1) Yes you are. And get over yourself and your conceit about "being manipulated." Maybe, just MAYBE, this girl is in the middle of some pretty complicated shit in her own life right now, and you are not going to be the center of her attention and her motivations? Maybe she's thinking "What do all these events mean for me and this relationship that has been a big part of my life?" (albeit a fucked up part) and NOT, "How are all these events going to effect the emotions and direct the behavior of mrphonz?"

2) It's not just that you used the word sluttish. It's the whole attitude you have that lies behind the word. For what it's worth, *I* have an answer for why you think this girl was sluttish (and, so, apparently do the vast majority of the commenters on this post!): You have issues with women, a massive sense of entitlement, and want to be in control at all times even though you have no idea what to do with your control. Go to a sex-positive therapist, learn a bit about 3rd-wave feminism and truly appreciating women as sexual beings and as your equals, and just generally stop being such a dick.

3) Read the comments again. WE seriously have a lot of good answers for this, but none of them put you in a very good light. Also, stop the sour-grapes about this girl. Stop calling her slutty. Stop rationalizing about why it didn't work out (ESPECIALLY not in ways that belittle her!). Just acknowledge that you blew this, big time. Another thing, am I the only one who finds all this "I guess you guys are telling me" a lot of approval-seeking and not a lot of genuine soul-searching?
79
PLEASE make this into a movie. I laughed so hard, and the more I scrolled down and saw that the drama carried on, with more people slashing their wrists and judging each other on their wrist slashing, the harder I laughed. This is like, emo drama snuff porn!

Advice to BPOAT: round up your posse, make a nerd orgy film for HUMP!, it'll be much healthier.
80
Ughhhhhhhhhhh I hate Nice Guys(tm).

So glad I skimmed this. So glad I read @35. So glad I'm in my 30s and don't have to deal with dating children like these.
81
dude,

It's nice to have you comment, and you seem to be taking some harsh criticism very openmindedly. kudos for that.

Now take some advice from a guy who has been there: get out now. I appreciate that you are all young, but stella, much as you like her, has emotional problems and relationship understanding and boundary problems and they aren'tgoing to change. You can't save her. Deep down, she doesn't want to be saved. She wants to be the center of attention.

If you want love, get out. If you want stability, get out. If you want privacy in your next romantic relationship, get out. Find some new friends, especially ones who have more normal dating relationships.

Here's what you do with stella:

"I am sorry I made out iwth you when your breakup was still in flux. I have liked you for a long time, and didn't want to wait to take it further. I know see it was a big mistake. I don't think we are right for each other. And I am telling you as a friend that you need to get your shit together I think our friendship is going to have to either end or take a break until we are both in decent relationships with other people.

Good luck"

Then you walk away.

Go find a nice girlfriend.
82
@39 I second the above commenter. You don't happen to be bi, do you? You're a total cutie-pie!

But god...did I actually read that whole thing? That was... Uh... Well, we'll say I knew it'd be bad when he called his situation a "crisis". Kid wouldn't know a crisis if it bitch slapped him across the head. And I can't believe he's almost my age (22). I pegged him as a high schooler.

But for real, typical nerd behavior. Most of my friends are nerds. They have this weird idea that since they are NICE (TM) women just have to like them, and they are just too stupid/naive/blind to see what they're missing out on by not dating such a NICE (TM) guy. It's damn patronizing.

And honestly, I don't see why he has the right to be mad at Stella anyway. He swooped in, mere hours after her break up, when she's feeling vulnerable, does the "nice guy" song and dance, and then gets pissed when she comes to her senses and tells him to slooooow the fuck down? He's just as manipulative and selfish, and they're all total asshats though. Every one of them.
83
@78: Awesome. "How are all these events going to effect the emotions and direct the behavior of mrphonz?"
I literally laughed out loud. Good thing I'm the only one in the office.
84
1. From one nerd to another, this Blanche is not canon.

2. This chick could be in an abusive relationship, but people who ARE in abusive relationships do not need to be saved. I work at a shelter, and if we told the women (and men) who came in to leave their partners, we would be no better than their partners who also try to control them. So by trying to tell her what to do, no one in the situation was helping. You can tell her it sounds like its abusive, and she may want to consider talking to an unbiased party-ahem-therapist, and that you will support her in her choices....although, this is n/a now b/c I agreee with Dan that you should cut this girl out.
85
"..poor history with women.."
"the last girl undressed herself for me after knowing me for five days. I didn't sleep with her because I was turned off by this sluttish behavior"

Q.E.D.

I was so close to stopping after "sluttish", now I wish I had.

@Martychan, contact info?
86
@76 I really wanna know what kind of convention you were at.

Anime? Comic book? Star Trek? Furry?

I can't solve all your problems until I know what kind of geek I'm dealing with.
87
@76: You seem to be taken your (deserved) lumps here, so I won't contribute to the pile-on. A few suggestions going forward, though:

1a.) When you meet a girl you like, make your intentions known quickly. That doesn't mean declaring your undying love or propositioning her; it just means some flirting, as in "you look really hot in that dress." There's an art to letting a girl know that you're physically interested in her, and the "line" differs with each girl, so you'll just have to stumble around until you pick it up. But don't approach her as a friend in the hopes of someday, eventually getting in her pants. That's manipulative and deceitful.

1b.) When you hook up with a girl the same day she dumps a guy, you have to expect to be Rebound Boy. As you know from Stella's own prior history, break-ups are not necessarily permanent, and swooping in raises the real risk that you'll be tossed aside when she gets back together with the previous dude. What happened was entirely predictable, and you have only yourself to blame for walking into that.

2.) It's OK for guys to want sex. That doesn't make them assholes as opposed to sensitive nice guys. It's OK for girls to want sex. That doesn't make them sluts or even forward. Most of us are hard-wired to want sex, and we should all own up to that. The sooner you start thinking of yourself and other people as sexual beings, the sooner you'll be comfortable with having sex.

3.) Stop thinking of how you want other people to perceive your relationship goals, and start thinking about what you actually want. If you're not (for instance) attracted to blonds, don't worry about how other people might see you as superficial. Admit to yourself that you're not attracted to blonds, and don't hit on them. If you're honest with yourself and with potential partners about what you want, you're a lot less likely to trip across hidden land mines, like whatever derailed your sexytime with the naked girl.

In other words, never date a girl because of what other people think. Date her because you think she's hot, you want to fuck her, and you're hoping that there might be some interesting activities/conversations in addition to the fucking. As long as you and she are on the same page, everyone else can go blow themselves.
88
...

5 days is not "sluttish behavior."

I stopped reading there, because...wow.
89
If you learn anything from this, MrPhonz, may it be to CARRY YOUR OWN CONDOMS!

That way, when the nice girl strips for you, you can have PiV sexyfuntimes and maybe find a nice, sane girlfriend instead of getting sucked into drama like this. Is it too late to call up that nice girl? You totally should, and ditch Stella. Tell her that it's obvious that she's got her own shit to work out, and you've got your own shit to work out, and getting involved in each other's shit isn't helping either of you.

Then call up the nice girl, buy a pack of Trojans, and go watch a delightful movie with her. And then maybe enjoy some sexyfuntimes.

To the commenters at large: Not all geeks are like this, I promise. Some of us can handle our own shit without getting drama all over everyone.

Though, I have to ask - MrPhonz, you're a LARPer, aren't you? Or at least super into fantasy novels and story-intensive RPGs? Real Life isn't a Robert Jordan novel.
90
Ah crap @76's post didn't load before I posted. Thank you, Comcast!

Anyway, it seems like you're starting to see this correctly. Just because you made out someone doesn't mean that you can or even should pursue them - kissing is just kissing.

Also try being sarcastic with people. Fawningly nice guys tend to put women off.
91
Honestly, I don't know what y'all bitchin' about. I read this thing start to finish laughing all the way to the end, except the gasp that his "sluttish" comment induced, followed by feeling sorry for him. I have little to contribute beyond Dan's advice; I often find his certainty in assigning roles and motivations based on little (and not very solid) evidence a bit unsettling, yet very rarely disagree with his advice.
Mrphonz, you really need to chill and stop all this drama. And next time a girl you've dated for a week might want to get it on, bring condoms. Godspeed.
92
@62

I realize that other people have dogpiled you for this already, and you've apologized, but seriously? Your story has gone from "I was completely turned off by her sluttish behavior" to "We fooled around, she dumped me, and then I called her a slut in a letter to Dan to try to get vindicated."
93
@86 Anime.

@81 Much appreciated.

@78 I don't think I will be able to convince you, but I am overwhelmed, not just positively, but negatively, by all the advice here. I am going to come back often.
94
If the letter writer was at the same convention I was at (Steampunk World's Fair in NJ) I want to just quietly savor my luck in not running into any of this free-range psychodrama all weekend. May it remain ever so.
95
@76 #3 - or maybe you pursued it because you actually had a fun time and wanted a repeat, and only started thinking of her as a slut after she shut you down?
96
@35:
Maybe Dan could put a link to this at the top of his post to save us all a lot of time?

@39:
Definitely hot!
97
Wow, I'm almost starting to feel bad for this guy, even after being subjected to that letter. Dude, some compassionate advice I wish I'd had when I was younger:
a) What they all said
b) Avoid this kind of drama queen like the plague, she is not your friend and has some growing up of her own to do
c) Don't confuse being considerate and accommodating with being a doormat
d) Don't overthink your decisions
e) Your needs have the same importance as everyone else's, so grant them the same importance--but don't obsess about them
f) No matter what you've been taught, an indecisive, accommodating, manipulable nice guy is even less sexually attractive than a self-confident jerk
g) Don't you EVER AGAIN put down a woman who gets naked FOR YOU. Think of the balls that took, and then go and grab yourself a pair.
f) I mean this in the healthiest possible way: get over yourself, and get on with a real life. Think clearly; write succinctly; act confidently.

Best of luck. Sincerely,
A former 19-yr-old virgin
98
Dunno why - but you and your comments, mrphonz, remind me a lot of guys I used to go to high school with who were my friends... so I have enough sympathy to say this.

I think you need to do a few things:

1. Set your own boundaries, with a vengeance. Was it OK for Stella to put you through this? If the answer is anything other than NO, you have some serious soul-searching to do. She used you in this situation. Verify in your soul that it was not OK for her to do this. You as a person deserve better treatment, period. Respond to this realization by cutting ties to her forever. She does not deserve a second chance. She doesn't even deserve another conversation with you, except the one where you tell her never to speak to you again.

2. Once you have done this, lay the relationship out in painful detail in your mind. (Pretty sure you can just, like, reference this letter.) Your goal now is not to realize what Stella did wrong - that's obvious. Your harder and more painful goal is now to realize what *you* did wrong. Identify each and every point at which you made a decision in which you harmed, humiliated and demeaned yourself. Never forget that this relationship with Stella was one which *you* invited, one which *you* continued through your actions, and one which, above all else, *you* did not end even when you saw the warning signs. Write down, if you must, every mistake on a piece of paper for yourself to see. Force yourself to search for patterns (it's mathematical and comforting). Once you have noticed the patterns, codify them into a set of rules to take up no more than one page. Less is better, though they have to be of practical use to you. You are going to justify all the pain and humiliation you went through in this relationship by using these goalposts to evaluate every other relationship you will ever be in for the rest of your life.

3. Once you have taken responsibility for the immediate issue - the immediate actions that you have done wrong, and which you can (relatively) easily fix in the future (as soon as tomorrow!!) with changed behavior on your part - it's time to consider the deeper issue. Ask yourself: What do you want from women? What do you expect a woman to do for you? What are the needs of your body/soul that you expect a woman to meet? And how much of that should a woman, or any other human being, *really* have to be responsible for?

I predict, that unless you are the next Bill Gates and can incentivize with millions, you will not be able to have a woman in your life who will perform exactly to the bizarre standards that your Madonna/whore complex has imprinted on your mind. You do indeed have Nice Guy Syndrome - this letter, and your responses, is dripping with it. Look at you backpedaling from the angry, sarcastic comments. You didn't mean it! Oh you're so sorry! You're not sexist, honest you're not! Don't cringe at us - you *absolutely* meant exactly what you said when you wrote it. Own that. Take a good look at it. See what you really are, your own words telling a clear truth about you. Acknowledge it - and, hopefully, change yourself. You won't change if you don't see how deep the rot goes.

Because trust me - if you don't fix this "if a girl actually wants to sleep with me she's slutty and worthless!" brain setting now, 20 years from now you will be just another one of those guys writing to Dan who haven't had sex in 10+ years because their wives lost interest the second the ring was on and the children conceived.

Try looking at women as human beings... they have their own needs and desires and weaknesses and insecurities and crappy passes when drunk. Understand and forgive them. Few, in the end, will hurt you on purpose. They're just fucking up as royally as you fucked up. They're just making their own karma bath that they'll stew in. You've got to take each of them as they come, as an individual at a certain point on her own path.

Even Stella, this bitch who mistreated you so horribly - she wouldn't be doing any of this if she didn't have real, true, unbearable pain in her life, as well as misconceptions about the nature of love as fucked up and twisted as yours are. You're both happy to let yourselves be abused by others. You're more similar than you think. When you realize that, when you feel true deep empathy for Stella, you'll have moved through this period of learning and come out the other side. (Of course you'll also know at that point that the abrupt and brutal public severing of ties is/was the only thing you could do that might possibly help her, and you won't pick up contact.)

4. Keep in mind that if you think about/wish for/want sex with women, and then a woman offers herself freely to you for sex, and then you refuse to have sex with her because and only because it's not appropriate for a woman to want to have sex, then return to jacking off to porn and wishing you could have sex with women, YOU ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A MORON AND A HYPOCRITE. Further point: why were there not condoms in your wallet? You are 22, and should be carrying them on you at all times. NO possible excuses for this overlook on your part.

5. There's hope for you, mrphonz. Clearly, as you can see, you're not the only overly-long-winded nerd who will pass through the valley of the shadow and come out on the other side healthier, happier, and with a great sex life and a good feeling about life in general. This is a blip, not a trend, provided you learn the lessons.

Just never, EVER, forget the lessons.
99
I can't be the only one here thinking Asperger's, can I?

Also, @39: So, into nerdy guys, huh? I once got into an argument with my wife about whether Rot Lop Fan was a Green Lantern.

...

Wait, is being married a dealbreaker?
100
@Martychan... Right there with you. In his breakup IM, ex-boyfriend said, "You aren't too ugly." I'd post a photo of myself, too, but I've had a few too many internet stalkers. For the record, though, I think you're really pretty. (I'm bisexual.)

Also, I can totally sweet this sort of drama and writing style and, well, everything coming up with some of my friends. And sometimes nerdy guys who think they're nice guys and who get called nice guys are not, in fact, nice guys. Based on the letter and the posts by mrphonz... I would rule that he is likely one of those "nice guys" who don't actually have the immediate jerkish behavior to set off red flags, but have all sorts of stuff under the surface. Issues with how women should behave and how romance should work, especially. (all of this is based on my experience as a female, bisexual nerd who is attracted to nerdy people and has had nerdy friends for about a decade. Prior to that I was a loner nerd.)

Maybe I'm just thinking about my ex and this other "nice guy" I knew in high school, though. I can elaborate, but I doubt anyone wants to know details.

Therefore, LW, my advice is this: think long and hard about your motivations and how your behavior affects other people. You may not be as nice as your friends think when romance gets involved. Our friends are sometimes terrible judges of that sort of thing.
101
@99 Doesn't read like Asperger's to me. I grew up with a few kids who all had varying severities and this doesn't read like it to me.

Social awkwardness and TooNice syndrome, certainly (as well as a tendency to fixate on girls), but I don't think it's Aspergers.