Slog Jan 30, 2013 8:15 AM

The Problem with Polynormativity

by Dan Savage

Comments

1
Does acceptance of female bisexuality disqualify them as queer?
Why are there cars? on January 30, 2013 at 8:32 AM · Report this
2
Maybe we should ask straight, married porn stars. There seem to be quite a few. They and their spouse get up and go to work where they spend the day snogging in various combinations of sex.
Pope Peabrain on January 30, 2013 at 8:33 AM · Report this
3
Maybe it's time to start using the word "harem" here.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn on January 30, 2013 at 8:36 AM · Report this
4
Besides that one Showtime series on the subject, I don't really see Polyamory presented on television or at the theater much. Occasionally you get monogamous people who test the waters but it's always pretty clear in the end that they are and should remain monogamous.
Arsenic7 on January 30, 2013 at 8:38 AM · Report this
5
In the show "The Big C", Sean gets into a poly relationship for a couple episodes that is him with another man and one woman (he calls it a throuple).

Though, a large portion of it is him explaining that he's not gay...so, I guess it's not a great example.
Pick1 on January 30, 2013 at 8:42 AM · Report this
6
Oh for...

We just barely got to the point of presenting gay people as a normal thing. (Also: Asians. They just suddenly appeared on TV in the last few years. Latinos are just starting to show up in roles that don't require an accent.) And now the thing to do is hand-wringing over how the media is not doing shows that focus on the LG monogamish and swinging community? Like this is the only thing missing in primetime's fictional depiction of what America looks like?
IPJ on January 30, 2013 at 9:00 AM · Report this
7
Maybe so. Maybe so. But my wife are I are poly (proud to live in a state where I have to specify that I'm a man), and date another straight/poly couple. We also know three other poly couples, and all are M/F and straight(ish). All that is to say, maybe queer people pioneered poly as this article suggests (thanks queers!), but we exist too. The author seems kind of mad about that. Sorry.
ohthetrees on January 30, 2013 at 9:03 AM · Report this
8
I want Sue that "dates" Tim and Jim and John (all at the same time), but I don't want to stay home. I wanna be there :P
Mike in MO on January 30, 2013 at 9:12 AM · Report this
9
Syphilis, meet thy makers.
on January 30, 2013 at 9:16 AM · Report this
10
"Andrea has lots of other insights into the way polyamorous relationships are being packaged and presented for the mainstream."

Ah yes, another trailblazing sex writer - doing what's already been done, but passing it off as new with a psychobabble name.

These "polys" are "swingers," kiddies. You can look it up. And whatever you call them, divorce attorneys love 'em.
menace2society on January 30, 2013 at 9:17 AM · Report this
11
She does make some good points that I agree with. But yeah #6 is right, plus who wants to watch most of tv anyway? It's mostly crap.

Plus, the video you downloaded shows a guy in bed with a woman and another guy. Not exactly the kind of video that represents what Ms. Zanin is talking about; I was expecting the guy to be in bed with two Swedish female models. Or something.
passionate_jus on January 30, 2013 at 9:24 AM · Report this
12
@10, as someone who knows quite a few people in poly relationships (including a very loving threesome who have lived together for years), you are full of shit.
passionate_jus on January 30, 2013 at 9:27 AM · Report this
13
The mainstream media whitewashes EVERYTHING. Nothing new to see here.
Urgutha Forka on January 30, 2013 at 9:40 AM · Report this
14
#10

I can say first hand that you are wrong on all counts.
Arsenic7 on January 30, 2013 at 9:42 AM · Report this
15
@6 has it. Andrea has it backwards. If you give too many column inches to LGBQ polyamory, people will return to the thinking that gay is a poly doorway, and that gays are ruining heterosexual monogamy by introducing polyamory into the mainstream. By keeping it mainly hetero, and with a bit of bisexual lesbianism for the men, it is hetero people threatening their own monogamy instead of gay people doing it.
TheMisanthrope on January 30, 2013 at 9:46 AM · Report this
17
It looks pretty boring to me. I mean it's just a three/four/five way right? For us gay's that just a typical day. Call me when the media starts to focus on fisting (anal and vaginal) hard core bondage and stuff like that. Maybe public sexual humiliation?
Cato the Younger Younger on January 30, 2013 at 9:57 AM · Report this
18
@16 lol
Pope Peabrain on January 30, 2013 at 10:23 AM · Report this
19
Swinging, it's not just for old people.
thatsnotright on January 30, 2013 at 10:33 AM · Report this
20
Ah-ha! An explanation at last! I wondered why it was like that when every poly I know is either penis-free of a total sausage-fest.
Skye Blu on January 30, 2013 at 10:38 AM · Report this
21
This reminds me of how NAWSA embraced the separate but equal spheres philosophy in their efforts to promote women's suffrage.

No no no! We don't want to vote because we're promiscuous child-neglectors who want (gasp!) reform of divorce law! We want to vote because we are virtuous defenders of the home and family and because women's influence in politics will clean up the corruption. It wasn't true but 1. at least some of them believed it to be true and 2. it worked.

So regardless of whether polyamory is a good idea or not, regardless of whether being deceitful is good or not (it isn't), it is possible that playing up polyamory's less threatening sides will lead to acceptance.
DRF on January 30, 2013 at 10:50 AM · Report this
22
@ 9 - You're the one who needs new hobbies, me thinks. Trolling is so passé.
Ricardo on January 30, 2013 at 10:53 AM · Report this
23
This over-thinking of sex is starting to be annoying. I have trouble believing that anyone who'd write that much about this could possibly be very good at it.
on January 30, 2013 at 10:54 AM · Report this
24
Oh Gawd. I barely managed to get through this. I'm not going to go read more whining about people who insist on getting outside confirmation for private personal choices. I think its lovely if you have deep meaningful relationships with dozens of people, but really, you think you're going to get Hollywood to present that in a respectful, thoughtful manner?
Mugwumpt on January 30, 2013 at 10:56 AM · Report this
25
25: Yeah, I really don't get all the quasi-academic wank surrounding having sex with multiple partners. I guess it makes them feel special.
on January 30, 2013 at 10:59 AM · Report this
26
@1: As a bi woman who has been harassed a lot on OkCupid by couples looking for threesomes despite making it clear in my profile I'm not interested, I would say no - because the mentality there is primarily that the woman's bisexuality only exists as a sexual kink, that it's not a legitimate sexual orientation on its own besides how it can please a guy's lesbian-porn fantasies.
Whoop Di Doo on January 30, 2013 at 11:04 AM · Report this
27
I mean, I'll admit that there are certainly some couples out there that are more respectful of boundaries, but the sheer amount of this shit that you get if you are a single bi woman on a dating site suggests it's not a fluke, but an attitude common in that community.
Whoop Di Doo on January 30, 2013 at 11:06 AM · Report this
28
That "community" specifically being straight couples who are interested in threesomes with women, not polyamory in general.
Whoop Di Doo on January 30, 2013 at 11:07 AM · Report this
29

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"the uploader has not made this video available in your country"
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WTF??

What kind of idiotic scumbag does that?
Falcor on January 30, 2013 at 11:28 AM · Report this
30
@2: Uh, you do realize that they're ~acting~ on camera, right?

JFC, actors in rom-coms don't love each other either.
on January 30, 2013 at 11:32 AM · Report this
31
Just for fun, watch the movie Guys and Balls. Silly cute and entirely watchable. Includes a triad of leather guys who live and bed together. Fun stuff.

Ahem, it's European, so that's why...
lewlew on January 30, 2013 at 11:41 AM · Report this
32
Most states still don't allow gays to marry, denying homosexuals the basic rights enjoyed by heterosexuals. So maybe it's not such a bad thing that polyamory, at this cultural moment, is primarily seen as a straight thing. Seeing as how so far the winning argument for same sex marriage has been that it won't open the door to a radical redefinition of marriage.

Proteus on January 30, 2013 at 11:44 AM · Report this
33
I wish polyandry were normative.
Sandiai on January 30, 2013 at 12:20 PM · Report this
34
@29: Pretty much every major American movie and TV company (Showtime in this case).
bigyaz on January 30, 2013 at 12:39 PM · Report this
35
I find the hand-wringing by the author about the polyamory community's (especially new and potential members) response to their aggregate depiction in the main stream media kinda cute.

Acceptance often comes from a realization that "they" are just like "us"; it would seem that within it's flawed framework, the main stream media is giving the polyamory community the best it could expect.
on January 30, 2013 at 1:06 PM · Report this
36
They'll get to accepting other forms of poly. They just tend to nibble these things off in bits. Probably next after the MF seeking bi F will be either the couple dating couple, or my configuration of two best friends in an LTR with the same girl.
STS on January 30, 2013 at 1:24 PM · Report this
37
meanwhile mainstream british televison has a show about Thai 'Ladyboys' including full and frank discussion about sexual identity of the girls and their parners, sex acts, genital and hormonal treatments, and the inherent power imbalance between european tourists and thai hookers. US television is timid and bland by comparison.
Glad I live in Australia where we receive so much british content.
gregok on January 30, 2013 at 2:13 PM · Report this
38
Well, better badly represented polyamory presented as normative than no polyamory represented at all.

We're not going to see much better until the polyamorous feel comfortable coming out outside of communities like LGBTQ and BDSM.
wingedkat on January 30, 2013 at 2:15 PM · Report this
39
@2: Mmmaybe not. There was a "True Life" episode about a gay-for-pay porn star and his wife and their cupcake business. The husband looked like he was having the time of his life while the wife looked like (and did at the end of the episode *SPOILER!*) she was going to have a nervous meltdown at the drop of a pants. It was painfully obvious she wasn't okay with it, even though she was allowing her husband to fuck dudes.
Drew2u on January 30, 2013 at 7:30 PM · Report this
40
Are you sure this isn't a clip from Portlandia?
beatgrl on January 30, 2013 at 8:33 PM · Report this
41
40 wins the thread. I thought the same.
SoapMacTavish on January 30, 2013 at 9:41 PM · Report this
42
I know this may sound shocking to a polyamory advocate, but she has to consider why these articles are written and read in the first place. The whole point is to find something sort of titillating to write about that will draw in readers and make them want to continue to read.

This means something slightly outside of their comfort zone while still seeming to apply to them and still within a stone's throw of their comfort zone. So in magazines oriented towards the mainstream this will mean behaviors that are pretty close to mainstream sexuality. If she wants articles about queer poly relationships those are going to appear in queer media for the same reasons mainstream poly relationships appear in mainstream media.

Seriously, as much as this issue may be her passion, this is seldom going to be an issue of hard hitting journalistic investigation and integrity. It's just a little bit of naughty human interest intended to move some magazines and provide for some clickbait.

This is true for every subculture so she really needs to get over herself. No one is going to take seriously nerd complaints about how cosplay is misrepresented in the media or hardcore knitters's complaints about how media focus on hipsters distorts coverage of what is really going on in the knitting world. Accurate articles about niche communities are for media consumed by those niche communities. For everyone else they are a momentary diversion.
Learned Hand on January 31, 2013 at 1:09 AM · Report this
43
Wow, there's a lot to hate in that column.
E_Mur on January 31, 2013 at 8:07 PM · Report this
44
@43 agreed. I think a lot of what she's describing is ethical nonmonogamy rather than polyamory. But either way, why can't we all navigate these waters in the way that works the best for us as individuals and couples? I'm not going to apologize for having a primary parter in my husband. Most of the other people I see have primary partners as well. It works for us. We're happy.
alanaeldora on February 1, 2013 at 6:11 AM · Report this
45
It's weird to see a blogger I've been following as a reader for a long time get discussed over one article that hits another longtime favorite blog. I guess this should make me rethink my own knee-jerk assumptions about *other* other bloggers when reading a single post of theirs that starts going wide. Hmm.
CLDG on February 1, 2013 at 9:56 AM · Report this
46
@33: Did you see this article on polyandry? http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
BlackRose on February 1, 2013 at 2:26 PM · Report this
47
42 FTW.
danfan on February 2, 2013 at 12:17 AM · Report this