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Comments
(4 Semesters) Total Program Cost
40
$26,640.00**
Sounds like a steal!
China is still sending their kids off to college though right? Yeah...that'll keep America being #1! LOL!!!
you no likey Gommorah?
too bad.....
Like it or not, those of us without the captial or resources to start our own businesses are now in an academic arms race fighting over the ever-shrinking number of jobs that have benefits and pay living wages.
For example, the current GS-4 earns about $24,000. That is the base salary that should be given to a BS or BA holder on graduation...even if the degree is in literature or music or biology.
But more education IS the answer to inequality. It's just that "more education" means more quality in K-12. A BA or BS is proof that someone can sit still, delay gratification, do boring work, and get said boring work done on time. Back when those degrees were rarer, it didn't matter if the major was English; it was still proof that someone could be a good worker. Higher education is still good, but we need to train people for the jobs that society actually needs. We shouldn't scrap English, art and poetry programs, but they should only take the top students so that the number of graduates is closer to the number of jobs. It's not a perfect solution. I deliberately majored in something that had job relevance (with a minor equiv. in one of the arts; gotta balance!) and I still had a lot of trouble landing a position.
Most of this article is about the loan system and a possible upcoming collapse. I agree that reform, such as requiring schools to disclose how many students actually get jobs, would be a good thing.
The trick is that if you look over the persons entire lifespan you see that college graduates make 38% more in their lifetime (including the years you spend working at the Outback Steakhouse) then their high-school graduate peers. And this number has been trending up, not down.
Don't buy into this weird anti education cult that is going around. It is B.S.
Also anybody who is getting a Law degree is going to have the chance to make a crap-ton of money, they are good. Law is one of those degrees that directly funnels to a job. Law students don't need your pity.
If we want universal education, for the sake of education, we have to fund it as such. If it is an investment, kids should be told that up front and given options and tools to make better decisions. It can be a great investment, but not for everyone under the current system.
Yet, I look at all the creative written and visual activity on the web and I think..they real problem is our content labor is being exploited for free.
It is like the famous letter that Bill Gates wrote about programmers needing to be paid.
We all seem to know what is really valuable in society, but our monetary and rewards systems have not yet caught up...
Meanwhile, my dad has a BA in poli sci (the degree that he managed to scrape together after four years of taking whatever classes he felt like at a state university) and, as an executive, can only hire people who have MBAs. It's insane.
Also maybe you should ask the MBAs how useless their degree is. Hint: they're raking it in.
Be very, very suspicious of anything these people do. Their work is far from academically rigorous.
@ 10, I generally do not accept hard right think tank products at face value either, but does that mean that the whole study is wrong? Can you refute any of its conclusions?
@ 19, that's the key. Yes, the study may look at recent grads, but in an era of stagnant real wages and low-paying jobs requiring degrees, what does the future look like for tomorrow's grads? It's looking pretty bleak from this perspective.
I could go on about several other aspects of this "story," and write eloquently about the value of post-secondary education - to the individual and to society - but then I'd just be showing off my worthless college education.
Meanwhile, the real crises threatening higher ed make up a real shit sandwich: retracting state support of public institutions has forced universities to hike tuition and even to get in bed with private investors, who add fuel to the notion that college is about jobs. Rising healthcare costs for institutions that traditionally took good care of their professors throws another log on that fire. A huge building boom swept across the nation prior to the busting of the real-estate bubble, and the bonds are largely on the shoulders of current-day college students through tuition and fees - these students are paying for condo-like residence halls, luxurious student union buildings with endless food courts, and so on. (Aside: this is coupled to the diminished state funding, in that many public schools have seen revenue opportunities through leasing spaces in their SUBs, and many residence halls are actually administered by private companies like American Campus Communities, who have long-term leases with their universities).
The last decade has also seen an almost cancerous growth of highly-paid administrators across the nation. Not only are there more middle-level administrators, but their pay often dwarfs that of even senior faculty.
This is to say little of athletics programs, the huge proportion of which are net losers for colleges. Even after accounting for the halo effect of alumni donations that they tend to generate.
The whole grim picture is underwritten by the availability of cheap student loans and a growing acceptance of debt by consumers.
Meanwhile, if college increasingly means forfeiting a future downpayment on a house, putting off a family and essentially extending one's adolescence into one's mid-to-late twenties, why are students going to college? Because there is the perception - however real or false - that there are few options for employment after high school aside from white collar jobs.
TL;DR:, you have a viable system that has been kneecapped by state fear of increasing revenue, greedy administrators, a terrible labor market, the deep consumerization of 21st century society, and a willingness by consumers to borrow heavily, even if that thing is essentially speculative.
"For-profit" / "Online-only" / MOOCs / related developments are nothing more than the cries of pain uttered by a system that is on the ground, writhing.
Nobody is "attacking" the value of education. Of course it is valuable to be educated. No conservative jerk can disprove that. What they are saying is that college tuition is becoming no longer worth the dollar cost.
For example: You want to learn about famous philosophers. Go and buy five books for <$100 and read them. Then, discuss them with friends and family. Now, you have educated yourself. But if you are paying $75,000 to a college in order to sit in a chair and have another person order you to read those books, you have also educated yourself, and perhaps this way is easier and more convenient and requires less self-discipline, but that still may not be a better deal.
The same goes for subjects such as computer programming, art, writing, and corporate finance. I believe that's some element of what people such as the article writer are trying to say.
The catch, obviously, is if you have a certificate that says something like 'harvard' at the top, other people will be more impressed by it. But I do not believe that the actual education is any different.
And to take the law school thing one step further, we are absolutley seeing demand plummet in response to the increase in price and the lack of jobs. I think this last year reflected the largest drop at 20%, with decline in the proceeding years as well. Interestingly, some schools are still raising tuition prices.
Despite what Dan thinks, as a last year law student (I go to a decent but cheap school and have no where near the 70k a year debt levels) this is great news. Employers may well find it more and more difficult to find and hire competent lawyers and will increase salaries. Salary increases will entice another generation into law school, and we'll all play the game again.
Yes that assumes that some amazing algorthim isn't written that makes 95% of the legal profession obsolete (possible!) and that the economy continues to recover (likely).
In short: some people lose out along the way, but the market actually seems to be working pretty well.
On top of that I've managed not to father any offspring and to find a partner that is with me on that. On top of that I've been fortunate enough to avoid any major medical complications.
So without taking any of that into account "I never went to college and I did fine."
But I couldn't really say that for anyone without my combination of luck and life choices.
I am accepting now that I will never own a house, start a family, take vacations, or retire. I'll be lucky if I ever pay off my student loans.
If I had known that my best option at 30 was going to be bus driver, I probably would have skipped the years and tens of thousands of dollars I spent to be simultaneously over- and underqualified for every other job in the world.
I agree that the cost of college is outrageous. The situation is discouraging. But professors are sacrificing a great deal to do their best for very little. That dedication to student development is what still makes higher education a worthwhile investment. High school students are arguably less prepared for the working world upon graduation than ever before. College students who put their all into their education will reap the benefits down the road.
1) the idea that EVERYONE should go to college, because it represents economic opportunity and everyone has an equal right to that;
2) the consumerist idea that a shitty student who has paid for a class deserves to pass it; and
3) the resultant massive dumbing-down of college classes.
I have taught undergrads at a state university and a private urban community college. Frankly, few of the state-school students had any business possessing a high-school diploma, and almost none of the community-college students did. College for them was a catch-up on high school.
So if a college degree doesn't get you a great entry-level job these days, it's because such a degree has become next to meaningless. The distinction it used to make between applicants still gets made, but now it has to come out in the actual workplace.
Quite a lot of coverage in various business news about this, and the lack of employers willing to change now that times are different.
I wish that were true, but no. The job market implosion has caught up with MBAs big-time: We're now applying for jobs that used to require only a bachelor's. The problem is political (our current Kamikaze KKKongriss and their insane fiscal policy) and structural, as a result of economic and corporate mismanagement, which have decimated the number of living-wage jobs available in our country and created an economy that produces mostly low-wage, unskilled positions.
Come back to me in a few more years when you and Terry have told D.J. not to go to college, that it's a waste of time and money. In fact, he's old enough now that you and Terry must be having discussions about it. Have you told DJ it is a waste of time and you aren't going to help him pay for it, that he should just go to J.C.?
Oh, and for those who say that college is the new high school, doesn't that mean you will be treated the same way high school drop outs were treated 35 years ago? I mean, it either serves that social function or it doesn't.
SELECTIVELY cutting financial support for 4-year college training, or at least channeling more of that money to students who demonstrate competency and goals-driven studies is necessary. So, if you're a middle-class kid who would do it all on loans, you need to be a bit brighter to qualify for the 4-year or pay for it yourself. Or, if you're poor enough for grants, you need to demonstrate competency and progress toward graduation throughout your college career to continue receiving the grants. Of course we could combine these with creative options like...his other suggestions, to increase the types of education available to our kiddos. Let's get kids of out high school with a marketable skill (vocational education) and/or FULLY prepared for college. I'd add, let's get more kids going to community colleges where appropriate (many AA and certificate programs could land people pretty decent jobs, and at a far lower cost to both them and us than having someone with a BA working as a paralegal; community college is also far cheaper for those who aspire to a 4-year degree but need some remedial work, and we could limit loans to CC if you don't make the cut to jump right into 4-year, and then, once competent for 4-year, unleash the flood gates with some of the coursework done cheap!), and (as suggested, although not clearly) re-balance resources so that kids who do need a 4-year degree don't need remedial training of any sort to dive right in, which can shorten their college career and ALSO provides a quality level of education to all the kids...even those who don't go on to college.
So, overall...he says "too much supported spending." I agree that this is part of the problem of education cost inflation. "Unprepared students"...unless you've been living under a rock, yes, true (not all, but some). "Lack of investment in primary and secondary education as well as career education"...I've been yelling about this for years (why could my mom graduate from high school qualified to be both a secretary and a cosmetologist, but kids today have to pay their own way for that training or go to college hoping for more and then settle; why could she later pay just $2200 to get a certificate that secured her a $18/hour job (that's actually pretty good for where she lives), but my friend's husband has $10K in debt for his HVAC cert?). "Cut government support"...REFORM government support so that all kids are getting a solid education that gets them a job at the minimum cost to them and society. With minor tweaks to the conclusions, it's pretty reasonable.
It is a very odd situation.
But if your main criteria include 'a school with a good football team' or 'an ivy league school', then you're probably not going to get your money's worth.
BUT, I also went to school at a time when I saw my costs nearly double over undergrad and grad school. There's no reason that should have happened, and future generations will be better off than me if we can rein in the cost increases. Had my tuition increased at only the rate of inflation, I'd have as much as $200/month more in disposable income. The increases in cost need to be checked, and sending more kids through 4-year programs that don't meet their needs is not the way to do that.
Also, college and grad school does not have to be obscenely expensive. It's nice to study full time at a private university but it is really not a must. For me, I went to a state school, had merit scholarship that covered most of my tuition and worked to cover for living expenses (mom and dad paid remaining tuition which was very fortunate and helped a lot). After graduation, my jobs in college set me up with enough experience to find a job that paid jack but was with a great company. I worked full time and took advantage of their tuition reimbursement to pick up a MA which took 4 years going p/t but cost me only time and effort. Got a better job with another good co, got a second MA, another 4 years of p/t school which honestly kinda sucked--but again, it didn't cost me a dime.
Please don't think I'm doing a humble brag or some such--I really just want to point out that it is possible to get a great education without drowning in debt. It's not super fun but it's definitely doable.
But the reality is that the big money jobs are not as abundant as they once were, and jobs period are fairly scarce due to how many people are graduating from law school every year. The number of people from my law school who are either not working at attorneys or started their own firms (self job-creation, and rarely big money jobs) speaks to this. I took me 5 years before I was able to work up to a job/firm that paid me well (and I'm still talking less than $100k). Now I make a good salary that is nothing to sneeze at but I'm still staring down 30 years of loan payments and a principal balance that has not seemed to change at all.
That was kind of a bitch session. I think college is worthwhile for many people, but a law degree is over hyped and the whole profession could deal with a little down sizing.
Actually, I think that's something telling about Dr. Vedder...he chose to spend his teaching career at a state school, and always treated us as competent, capable students (I took an introductory couse and several mid-level courses from him, beyond him being my adviser). When I did actually run into him at a luncheon about a year ago (one of my (more conservative) friends said I would be interested in it, and I rolled my eyes, and then she said she wanted to speak with Dr. Vedder, and I said "I have a way to make that happen," and introduced her to him, since he still remembered me when I approached him), he noted that he knew I would do well, since I was a serious student and had a plan to succeed. It's not necessarily about where you go to school or how you do it, but what you want to get out of it. I'm sure he knows that I and many of my classmates were kids on loans, and in all my conversations with him, I know he doesn't think that loans, grants, and other aid are the crux of the problem, it's the availability of them to any and everyone who can get an "average" test score or GPA, coupled with the lack of alternatives. Student loans have been available for forever and a month...my dad used them back in the 60's. It's the general availability and the push to use them that are problematic. When my dad used them, he was an excellent student of modest means who could excel with a college education, while other students took advantage of vocational education or at least graduated high school having a firm grasp on the "three R's" (heck, my grandparents only completed 8th grade and could read, write, and do arithmetic better than half of today's high school students). And, as I've said, my mom took advantage of vocational education and career/community college to make a life. It's not that people shouldn't be educated, it's that we're pushing people into one type of education, and that isn't ideal for everyone, or even for the economy (on both the cost and the demand for employees sides).
The emergence of the liberal arts college came about very early in the history of this country based on the concept that an educated populace was good for everyone. Education was one of many concepts of public investment for the common good. Unfortunately the capacity to attend college became more rare because of the Great Depression, war after war, lack of middle class status, etc. After WWII the capacity to attend became more common because of the GI Bill. And we as a country became more interested in really making access to higher ed democratic because of the whole Soviet threat.
When we became successful and people had low tuition, access to some low interest rate loans and tons of grant aid----we pulled the rug out. Public investment in higher education came to a grinding halt under Reagan and we've steadily chipped away from that ever since. The elites could absolutely not bear the fact that more and more people understood that the scales of power were tipped in the elite favor. There weren't enough poor people to be battle fodder for wars. There weren't enough poor people to do the bidding of the elites and just be thankful for having a shitty toil heavy job. People actually expected something from their lives!
Thus the campaign to convince you that college is unnecessary. After all if you have no critical thinking skills, no concept of your role in the historical time line, or the way history of oligarchy comes and goes, you have no way of recognizing them when they appear again and no interest or ability to fighting it.
In general with education a distinction needs to be made between school for a traditional education / middle class right of passage from that of shit that will teach you how to be useful and make a living.
Liberal arts are great for their own sake but doesn't mean anyone will want to hire you.
For various reasons, I needed to take out loans to go to grad school in a couple of STEM fields, and so far it has been well worth the debt. It has every indication of being more and more worth the debt as time passes.
For example, most universities don't teach the "Software Flavor of the Week" that most positions absolutely require experience in. Some examples I can think of are Ruby on Rails, Documentum DB2, Tivoli, Crystal Reports, ServiceNow, etc. If you are looking to get into a lot of the corporate jobs you will need at least one(or hopefully more than one) of those programs under your belt.
There are also certifications that are really helpful that most companies really like to see that you don't get at most universities that if you can't get a company to pay for them tend to range in the $400-$3000 range.
Of course, some people would say that a lot of this is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic because we still have the problem that most of our technological advancements since around the 80's or so are skewed towards the people who have lots of money to invest at the direct cost to the people who actually need to have a job that they get paid at. The result, of course, is that people who can invest are making money hand over fist and for the people who need jobs the only real growth industries make an average of $12 an hour.
Actually, I suspect that starting a war with China will bring a lot of manufacturing jobs back to America.
The degree is a credential you need to get an interview. It's several thousand dollars skimmed off the top of a business persons career earnings.
I think your main complaint lies with the constrained resources of basic education. Testing is a part of that, but only a small part. I passed my "graduation exams" (proficiency tests that must be passed before graduating high school) in *8th* grade. My younger brother, who was never a stellar student until he went to college as an adult (on his own dime), passed them all early in *9th* grade (more than half of them in 8th grade, and the last less than half on his second attempt early in 9th grade). So, clearly, even our not-very-good school district could prepare kids, even unmotivated ones, to pass the basic tests early on. But there was little beyond that. Sure, because I was a motivated student, I learned a fair bit. But I could have just coasted by, learning nothing beyond the basics. Given the right resources, our district could have provided excellent courses that made me think as well as technical training that would have engaged my brother (he got a little through a grant program, and enjoyed and excelled in those few courses, but, now having a degree in engineering, would have really shined if he were challenged in applied courses, and not have had to shell out so much to make up the boring classes he didn't understand the purpose of at 15, 16, and 17).
The study cited is a bit short-sighted, but, if you think about it critically and beyond the authors' conclusions, we could really do some creative things to get people the education that will help them excel at a lower cost than shoving more and more kids into a traditional liberal arts college environment. Not everyone is going to excel in that environment, and we're doing a piss-poor job of preparing most students who need that degree for it. A liberal arts education has a lot of value, but, if we did things right, we could provide a lot of that earlier on and then get people the education and training they need to get a JOB at a lower cost. I LIKE people who can think. I agree that critical thinking is sorely lacking in our educational system. But slighting primary and secondary education and career training in favor of funding post-secondary liberal arts educations for underprepared students en masse is not the solution.
If you happen to luck into going to your "dream school", go into infinite debt to study some bullshit you can get a 2 year degree to do, then fuck around for 10 years after school while finding yourself, then yea, you'll grow up to be a whiny little fuck.
Choices, make 'em early