Kickstarter Apologizes for Not Removing "Seduction Guide" Fundraiser

Comments

1
When I read the first couple paragraphs, I thought "oh come on, it is just a cheesy pick up book, who cares if the guy is an asshole."

But then I saw how strangely rapey it got...ugh.

Although, we can not be surprised when boys grow up to think this way. Every step of the way we train them that they will have to make the first move, they will be in charge sexually, and women will be "playing coy" and "hard to get." This is the end result of those lessons, and the uptight codification of dating/sex rules which many members of both genders gladly reinforce and live under.
2
Shameless kinda-self promotion, but here's a Kickstarter project I'm involved with that's worth supporting. It's for a film on UN peacekeeper violence against women and girls in Haiti. It's aiming for $11k, or $5k less than what Hoinsky raised. What a fucker.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1507…
3
And yet you continue to put money in his pocket. This is his marketing campaign -- YOU are his marketing campaign.
4
I dunno... isn't the way to fight stupid/hate speech with more, better speech? In other words, instead of trying to silence him, raise many more voices about how he is wrong? It feels better when people rally to promote progress as a better alternative instead of rallying to shut someone down. I dunno.
5
It is a complex dance. Too bad Hoinsky is not on the side of "Ok boys, learn to communicate clearly, and encourage clear communication from girls" camp of making out and dating.

Perhaps someone can point him to some good resources.
Or maybe he'll be brought up on date rape charges at some point. :(
6
his tips work great! highly recommended.
7
Wow, first comment.

From the author:
"The gist of the controversial advice is "Don't wait for signs before you make your move. Let her be the one who rejects your advances. If she says no, stop immediately and tell her you don't want to do anything that would make her uncomfortable. Try again at a later time if appropriate or cease entirely if she is absolutely not interested."

Men often don't pick up on women's signals. We often have to test the boundaries and then see the results. I have dated some women who were very responsive to these actions and it worked well. No, I wasn't assaulting or harassing them. I say there is nothing wrong with many of the unedited suggestions from the author so long as she is into it as well.

Sadly I have also dated women who have been raped and molested. Men likely do not know about past sexual abuse when progressing into the kissing/petting phase of a new relationship. I don't think I would share it with someone I barely know.

Basically everyone is different and has had different histories. It's impossible to know what someone doesn't tell you. Watch out for hints that your actions are not reciprocated or desired.
8
@6 Yeah! I'm a long-time follower of his, and as it stands, I've had at least twice as many hands on my cock as I've had criminal complaints filed against me, so that's like a 50% success rate! Not bad!
10
@9

Do you know what the word "censorship" means?

Hint: It's not when a business declines to help to spread a certain set of beliefs.
11
@7 Studies have been done on this. Men can read non-verbal cues from women and they use the EXACT same cues to indicate that they are not interested. Men just choose to ignore them.

source: http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/201…
12
First, this guy is a creep and the advice is foul. Period.

With that said, this is what happens when a field has 0 real competition. Sure, there are various flavors of pick up artist crap but it is all variations of the same thing, like cherry, vanilla, and lime coke is still coke.

Does that mean that it is the responsibility of any person or group of people to create an alternative voice? Of course not. However, it should be pointed out that every post or article I've ever seen or heard of is vague to the point of foolishness(be nice, be confident, and you may be alone forever!). This means that if you are a guy who is utterly bad with dating your options for advice are vague hand waving or the rape squad.
13
@6, are you sure it isn't the douche canoe hat? Girls can't resist a trucker hat that says "jiz" on it.
14
Another one of these guys who thinks he's all that and a bag of chips. Oh, and women really want "it" (and that's whatever his sick mind thinks it is).
15
But seriously, guys, isn't the best sex the sex you have to use deceit, manipulation, and coercion to get? Amirite? Amirite? Because let's face it, if you agree, you're not gettin' it any other way! Amirite? Amirite?
16
@11 - Interesting article, but it's a bit lacking in relevance on this particular matter.

First of all, it was specifically about cues that involve refusal of sex. Just because people can understand "Eh, I can't" means "no" doesn't mean that they understand the cues that mean yes. This guys seems to be saying you should assume yes until a no is communicated. It doesn't say to disregard nos, be they explicit or implied.

Secondly, your article was about people in general. And while it makes sense that most guys are able to understand such cues from most girls, at the bottom end of the bell curve you'll have people who lack such social skills. Such people would need assistance in navigating complex social dynamics like dating and sexual intimacy.
17
How about a woman writes a book on how to pick women up? Cause we're obviously clueless if this is the best advice guys can get.

I wonder what that would even read like.
18
@17

Excellent question. Even though I'm not single anymore I would buy that book out of curiosity.
19
@17

Tip 1: Treat a woman like a human being with thoughts and feelings instead of a walking pile of sex-holes.

Tip 2: Men are not owed attention from women, so if she clearly wants nothing to do with you, leave her alone.

END BOOK.

Can I have my sixteen grand now?
20
@19

Yeah, that is the vague hand waving I was talking about. That is necessary for getting dates but nowhere near sufficient.

And advice like that is exactly why pick up artist bullshit continues to thrive.
21
Anyone who expects a book to be able to tell them how to pick up women - as though all women are just different looking iterations of the same mystical, unknowable being whose wants and needs can be summarized in convenient book form - is beyond fucked.

@6, You created a Stranger profile just to post that.
23
@22, Unless Kickstarter is a government owned and operated entity and this book is legally barred from publucation and distribution this is not even "censorshippy." What we have here are two private entities exercising their first amendment right to free expression - one writes a book and the other says "oops, sorry we helped fund this awful thing."
24
@13: JIZ!!!
25
@19: That sounds like good advice to make best friends. An advice book written by a woman for a man would be less like a philosophy textbook and more like a football playbook (Nickle defence? Try short passes. Is she showing a blitz? Time for a lateral.)
26
It's a real life Prince of Persuasion. From Bob's Burgers. Season 2, episode 6, called "Dr. Yap". It's on Netflix.
27
@21 Yes, every individual is different. But that doesn't mean there aren't commonalities among people in general, or social skills that are transferable from one person to another. I mean, How To Make Friends and Influence People is generally regarded as worthwhile, right?

Frankly, it sounds like you're the one purporting that women are "mystical" and "unknowable," as though it's impossible to give advice on how one might be more successful at interacting with them.
28
No how-to book needs to exist because interacting with women isn't a game. We aren't rewards to be won after trying different plays.
29
@28 Exactly.
30
Also @25, what you're saying is that you should treat women you want to be friends with like people, but the second you want to stick your wiener in one she becomes some sort of prize or achievement instead of a FUCKING HUMAN BEING, and all humanity goes out the window?? COOL BEANS.
31
@25 yup. That is exactly what I do, and man, do I ever have a lot of really good female friends (seriously).

Unfortunately, although Hoinsky's advice sounds unbelievably horrible, it works. The guys I've observed who are the most successful at picking up women--and having them fall very, very hard for them--use exactly these tactics. They assume yes until they get a no, and then they stop immediately. Not at all rapey. Ostensibly very, very creepy, but also highly successful.

And @28, please. Women pick up men (and women), men also pick up men, and absolutely it is a challenge with a reward if successfully met. That this is true does not deny women or men any ounce of humanity.
32
The charges that the book is advocating violence against women are absurd. The equating of seduction techniques with violence against women is wrongheaded.

From the book:

"If at any point a girl wants you to stop, she will let you know. If she says "STOP," or "GET AWAY FROM ME," or shoves you away, you know she is not interested. It happens. Stop escalating immediately and say this line:

"No problem. I don't want you to do anything you aren't comfortable with."

Here's the real problem. Heterosexuals are still pretty uncomfortable about their own sexuality. Fifty years ago, it was the Kama Sutra in the crosshairs. This book is about seduction, a topic that makes people uncomfortable right off the bat. In our culture, however, it is a topic that women are trained in from early in life, and men are not trained in at all. The glamour magazines, the fashion industry, the makeup industry-- they are all selling techniques of seduction to women, like it or not. However, it seems that the male equivalent is what makes people really uncomfortable. Males don't seduce by looking cuter, they do so by acting differently.

The article seems to say more about the world view of the author and what she views as acceptable dating practices than it does about the book. It would appear to speak to an underlying cultural viewpoint that says that if men aren't perfect little gentlemen and cede to women all the psychological power in a relationship then they are abusers.

I think what we fail to realize in modern society is just how small, weak, and unattractive many men feel around women before they get older and more confident in general. I think most women forget, especially those that are attractive and get hit on all the time, that 90% of men never ever ever get hit on by women. EVER. As a result, men cannot just wait around for some hot girl to come tap them on the shoulder. Ladies get to filter out the men they don't like, guys have to after the girls they do like. They have to learn to go out and seek women they find attractive, court them, and do so effectively. That is what books and communities like this seek to provide, a psychological and sexual empowerment of the modern male.

We increasingly live in a world of gender equality and reduced violence against women, and that is a very very good thing. We are right to be outraged at direct calls for the physical violence against women. But this does not appear to be that. If we are too quick to cry assault at attempts for males to overcome their fears of approaching women by being more aggressive and bold psychologically and sexually, we do the modern male psyche a great disservice.
33
Sorry, just stuck in my male brain-ness. That's how I solve problems, through permutation.
34
@32: You are correct, sir.
35
If a random dude ever picked me up and sat me on his lap, i would probably rip his ears off.
36
No one else has done it, so I will: that's a pretty great corporate apology. Own up, don't equivocate, and give back money from the "ill gotten" profits (and then some). I've heard others continue to question whether kickstarter acted quick enough. Personally, I think that's drawing too fine a line. Given the number of artistic and opinionated projects that are crowd sourced on kickstarter, there's sure to be some that we'll find reprehensible if we dig deep enough. Once this kind fully came to light, kickstarter acted relatively swiftly and appropriately. Kudos.
37
@28 you're right. you certainly are no prize...
38
@28 AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Life is a game, everybody dances with everybody, and friendships and relationships are won and lost based on mutual meshing and clashing of personalities and social rules.

Your statement is the most asinine statement I think I've ever read. You should be proud for such idiotic and inane trolling. New lower standards have been set.

10/10

The author of the book is an awful person. Are you trying to out-retard him?
39
@32: You are one scary guy.

@31: Have you ever asked one of your good female friends on a date?
40
Seduction Guide That Doubles As Intro To Catching A Charge= Free Speech

Kickstarter's Decision To Stop Fundraising For Said Guide On Grounds Of Terminal Douchitude= Free Market

Basically, an asshole enters a popularity contest under the guise of being helpful and not an asshole. People hear what s/he has to say and decide s/he is, in fact, an asshole. Enough people call the asshole an asshole to take her/him out of the running for the popularity contest. The asshole can enter another popularity contest anytime s/he likes, but would be well advised to re-strategize or at least re-brand. Whether you agree with or relate to her/him or not, at no point was the asshole's rights infringed upon.

Should we call this the Paula Deen Principle?
41
Or, more in the spirit of this discussion, the Glenn Beck Principle?
42
@21- Thank you for pointing out that just created profile business.
@32- Contrarian, clearly the author douche, who-cares-your-name. You seem to sleep well at night. Justify as you must but the line becomes tenuous when your general message is "don't ask for permission." A very young, drunk, insecure, abused previously, mentally ill, whatever it is, woman might be too slow to speak up for herself. Mix that with your random band of douche protégés with whatever mental problems led them to buy into your douche bible. Can you see the problem yet?
@GhostDog- thanks for being the nice guy voicing the reason that these books exist. You say you aren't single now? Did you do it the old fashioned way- being yourself?
43
10, Censorship isn't defined as such only when the government is involved. TV networks have standards and practices departments that employ people known as "television censors". They are network employees, not government workers. They read every script, and remove content as per the networks' guidelines. It is censorship, but a company has a right to do it. The government does it too with NPR, and PBS. This guy isn't owed money to publish his book. People can protest and lobby against him, and companies are well within their rights to not publish works they deem unacceptable, but it is a form of censorship. The guy is a creepy fella, but with the funding response he got, and all the buzz this has gotten, someone will publish his book.