SL Letter of the Day: That Dick Has Sailed

Comments

1
To me she sounds rather bossy given she notes that "I tell a partner what I like and how to do it" with a first-time hook up. If I were the guy and were being directed by someone I just met like that I'd have sailed as well. I think it's one thing to give directional guidance but more than anything your body language, moans, breathing, etc., should suffice for the first time hook up. The Betty Crocker cookbook step-by-step instruction that she seems to do makes more sense a few more dates/hookups into it for me..
2
@1 Without actually being able to hear what she says and how says it it is hard to tell from this letter if she is merely stating to her sexual partners what works for her or if she is actually ordering them around. I'm going to take her word at face value that she is not aggressive in speaking up about her sexual needs. Because unfortunately, for some guys even when a girl merely states what she prefers sexually is enough to throw them off.
3
I bet she's kicking them in the spine when she comes.
4
Dan was all too kind. You really have to do something majorly wrong to make a guy's willy shrink. And while there's nothing hotter than a woman who knows what she likes and isn't afraid to say it (read: moan it breathlessly into your ear), it's also a huge turnoff to have somebody tell you exactly what to do and kill all the spontaneity and sexual chemistry. It's not that fine of a line, but there is a line...somewhere. The letter writer sounds like she's found it and gone three or four steps beyond the unsexy side of that line. And that WOULD be a boner killer for sure. At that point, you might as well be telling these guys how you want your floor mopped. That's quite an achievement. The letter writer got the benefit of the doubt even though it doesn't sound like she deserves it. Don't be so selfish. Start treating these guys like humans with emotions. Be in the moment. Create a little give and take. Then you might not have to re-start the action after you've gotten yours.
5
So she couldn't just go down on them, get all those guys hot again, do a sexy dance, be sultry? What am I missing?
6
Theory #3 is the obvious one. Even porn stars need fluffers (or viagra).
7
Lots of guys have issues the first time. I always chalk it up to nerves and look forward to the second time, which always goes fine. More second dates?
8
@4's second sentence indicates they are way too young to respond on this thread.
9
I would bet it's frequently theory #2. It has happened to me in many encounters. If you're focused on her, working on her pleasure, that can take you away from thinking about yours, and then you can go flaccid. Don't even bring it up unless you go down on him afterwards and he then can't get it BACK up (at which point theory #3 may come into play).
10
I'm with @5 here, why doesn't she just start sucking them off/ preforming a hand job, etc?

having experienced theory 2 before, just get the guy to relax and/or distract him with sexy activities (such as above or could just be a striptease, dirty talk etc etc) and all will be well
11
@8 - hahahahahahaha. You're right. I'm 12.

Admittedly, I'm a dude, so I mostly have experience with one dick - my own. It asked me to read the following statement:

"I am programmed to be ready. If there's a naked woman within sneezing distance, I am both the unmovable object and the irresistible force. There has to be a really good reason for me to lose interest. And performance anxiety? That all you got for an explanation? Don't make me laugh."
12
Bit rough on FEM so far in the comments. In her defence she does indicate that she tries to get the guys back up "And should I keep trying to make him hard?". There are lots of really hot ways to communicate with and direct someone during sex. She may need to work on that and it sounds like she wants to find that sweet spot. i.e. Getting what you want, Giving what your partner wants and Game to adjusting to get there.

My advise is she should take from each of the 3 theories.

Step A. Take from theory 3. Take a break from the action.

Step B. From theory 2. Talk to him about how much he turned you on, ask him about what turned him on during the sex you just had. part 1 of the sex session your currently in. Turn the conversation towards how he likes to be pleasure,

Step C. If he's spent, get him off after he rests.

Body contact, kissing, caressing, nibbling when and where appropriate during the "break".

Be open to the idea that he may have gotten off while getting you off, and that he may not have actually shot fluid while doing so, but got off nonetheless. This is a confusing thing to guys but it does happen.

P.S. Guys fake orgasms too. But that's another topic.
13
Being under pressure to "perform" is an unpleasant aspect of hetero sex for a man, IMO.
14
Theory #4: What he finds most exciting is seeing hearing and feeling her get off. Once she has - show's over.

Try taking turns until you both get closer. THEN let fly.
15

She says "after I get off, a lot of times the guy is limp".

Does this means she comes, and the guy is limp? Isn't this called "coitus" ?

My guess is she's really attractive and it's hard for a guy not to blow is load in her and they are hoping upon hope they can make her cum before it happens.

Maybe it even happens before she does
and the guy fakes it to keep his image up. ("Yeah, did you like that...hah...I satisfied you...woman...")
16
This lady is no prize. Her sex life consists of picking up guys in bars, who are undoubtedly highly intoxicated by the time she brings them home. Then on top of that she wants to give them detailed instructions on what gets her off, which they must perform, because "the lady comes first", then she wonders why they don't have a boner anymore...

What can she do to "reduce the awkwardness"? Quit being a fucking idiot for starters.

Red flag phrases:

1) "I think maybe I'm just intimidating. In fact, I've been told so"

2) "Dick panic". I think even Ron Jeremy's schlong would be looking for a rock to crawl under after being with her.
17
Alright @4. I can't tell if you actually are 12 or just trolling. Either way, it sounds like you can learn something here.

There are a number of things that make a guy lose his erection. Booze. Stress. Pressure. Exhaustion. Getting distracted by the hard work of getting a woman off. Getting off himself without ejaculating. Random chance and weirdness. All of these happen to most men on a regular basis. All of these things are not because his partner did something "majorly wrong." That's not saying turn-offs don't exist. But there are plenty of reasons for a dick to sail that aren't, oh she did something horribly wrong.

Glad your dick is so excited by the prospect of naked women. Perhaps once you've tried it with a real woman a number of times, you'll come around to a more realistic view of yourself, your dick, and the women who may or may not want to sleep with you.
18

#16

Please move to another country.
19
@18 please move to another universe
20
This has happened to me a few times, both in hook-ups and LTRs

I've discovered that I can frequently avoid it by using a foot or 69 position to add some stimulation for him. If he comes up limp anyway, I just ask whether he wants to take a break or to keep going, then work to return the favor.

Twice I've met guys who just *had* to make a big deal of it. Both were men who are used to the more "traditional" idea of sexually passive women, and both blamed my "intimidating attitude" for their supposed problem. That just told me that they are bad in bed and I should look elsewhere for fun.
21
@18 .... I find myself agreeing with you on this one.

So that happened.

22
@ 19 He tried and they wouldn't take him. The Universe Council demoted him to ruling ours.
23
My experience is that guys tend to alternate between hard and soft several times during a roll in the hay. Doesn't seem like any big thing.
24
May not be the case with the letter writer, but I've encountered some women who assume there must be something terribly wrong if a guy ever goes limp, even if it's super-easy to get him standing tall again. Theory #2 is a very real thing, and guys CAN be super turned-on and still get soft in situations like that (and without a medical condition). It's really not that big a deal if you don't make it into one. If you do...well done; you've probably just introduced performance anxiety.

@4/11: Give it a few years. Once the whole "hormone storm" thing settles down, it'll get easier to not walk funny when there's a girl in the room.

@16: Fuck off. Not all guys are you, and different people like to act differently in the bedroom. If this is the biggest issue she's encountering in her sex life, then it sounds to me like she's doing a good deal better than quite a lot of people. Certainly better than folks who vehemently object to the idea of a woman *gasp* actually TELLING YOU what she wants.
25
Performance anxiety
26
Y'know, this shit happens. If it keeps happening to you, yeah, maybe your behavior is the problem. Are we talking about a 25-minute pussy eating session here? Because that can put any guy off his game.

Here's my opinion: It sounds like there are some very specific things that you think you need to get off. That's fine. Maybe you can mix it up some so that his dick can get some stimulation too? Go down on him for a minute, then have him go down on you for a few minutes. A few. Like maybe five. Then fuck, and have him rub your clit while he fucks you. Does that get you off? If so, then Yahtzee. But try to involve his dick in your orgasm. This whole 'me then you' thing is too bifurcating. It should be both of you. Try for that, and take the risk that maybe you won't come that time.

I know telling a girl that she might not come sounds like misogyny, and I'm not trying to be like that. I'm just saying, if the problem is that the guys keep losing sexual interest, maybe it's important to make it about them a little more. And if they come before you do, no guy worth his salt is against taking care of you afterwards, especially if you're as safe as you say you are and he's therefore wearing a condom.
27
Seriously though, does any one believe this story happening...in Seattle?

A reasonably attractive and young woman offering free sex and enjoying it?

There has to be some catch. Normally you'd figure she'd lure these guys up to her place so her two ganglord boyfriends could beat and rob a dude.

More likely she's an Agendabot, sent to do damage to what's left of heterosexuality in the Pacific Northwest. After running through scores of guys, she'd suddenly decide that all men are bastards, adopt the Pixie Cut and write tomes about all she really wanted to bake her cake was to a live-in female pole dancer.

It's happened before.

It'll happen again.

This is Seattle.
28
Let's hear it for sex the morning after!
29
@24, well said.

FEM, more women need to be assertive like you and let guys/partners know what gets you off. In one of Dan's podcasts he said that if a guy needed to be hit in the head with a hammer to get off, he would lay out his favorite hammers before every encounter. Good for you; don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

As for why guys go limp during the first few encounters but not later on, Theories 1&2 match my experience. The first couple of encounters I want to get my new partner off so my focus is not on maintaining my boner. The simplest solution I have found to defer penis-in-vagina sex until the third time and instead focus on oral sex and fingering/hand jobs the first and second. This gives allows me to focus on your body's responses so that I know not only what gets you off, I also know what kind of foreplay and non-vaginal stimulation works best for you.
30

#22

There's only one Universe.

And you're using up my oxygen.

Punk.

31
Amazing comments here. Everyone's so keen to determine what LW is doing wrong and what her worth as a person is, and as a bonus we're getting some helpful reminders that women should never talk about what they want because that shit is scary. Good stuff. :)
32
Heh, this used to happen to me a lot when I was doing the hookup thing. It's probably just performance anxiety- the reason they're hard while they're doing stuff to you is because they're not thinking about whether their dick is going to work or not. Once your turn is over and it's their turn, it's ALL they think about. If it happens, this is the key phrase: "Don't worry, it'll come back." Then suggest something that he should be doing that will both please you and turn him on ( for example, I would always say "Could you play with my tits?"). The key is that you have to convey to the guy that you're not worried about his boner coming back, it doesn't have to happen right this second, and you also should distract him so he stops worrying his boner away.
33
@4 is in for the mother of all reality checks when he leaves his 20s. Since happily I will not be present in the room when it happens, consider my dry laughter preemptively enqueued.
34
@31: There's a difference between telling someone that they're doing something wrong and making a value judgment about them as a person. This is a scenario where she's outlined a recurring problem in which she is the common denominator. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect her to make some behavior modifications in order to promote a better outcome.

That said, there are some people here who are (as is always the case on Slog) being assholes.
35
Theory Three is simply an extreme version of Theory Two. Subtract the booze and/or the 3am and you still have the guy concentrating on her pleasure and working actively at going after it, quite possibly to the exclusion of his own.

BTW, "she comes first" is bullshit. Unless you two are absolute experts at simultaneous orgasms, SOMEBODY has to come second. Why is it "polite" for that always to be the guy? The fact that you think you are always entitled to the first orgasm points very strongly to Theory Two/Three being the problem. Which is to say, you are thinking something needs fixing with the guy for daring to focus so much of his attention on giving you what you want, that he isn't hard anymore at the point where you get it. If that's what's happening, the name "fucking ingrate" would apply.

The fact that you attribute it to "fragile ego males" points that direction, too. Seeing as this keeps happening, and the common factor is you, that ought to tell you something.
36
@5 - I agree - getting an erection is half the fun and shouldn't be a problem if the guy is as turned on as she says they are.

There must be some crucial piece of information being left out. Like maybe the entire time they are working on her they're sitting on a bicycle seat. I hear that can cause numbness downtown.
37
There's a fine line between guiding a new partner towards what feels good to you and treating him like a masturbatory aid.
38
Blah blah blah... I can't believe this lady is so precious that she doesn't know a dude can't maintain an erection the entire time.

Boners wax and wane and by the time she's off it's waned from lack of attention. So just spit in your damn hand and wax it up again, right? Not hard.

Make a big deal of it and it'll remained waned. Wayned. Bruce Wayned even.
39
A second to @20. Get your foot in there and polish his knob while he's going down. I find rubbing up against an ankle while doing oral is a better way to maintain, er, focus than humping the bed, but that might seem fetishy on a first date, or the guy might think "foot odor bacteria = potential UTI" or something icky like that (not a problem AFAIK). So, you might take the lead to make it clear you're OK with that tactic. Just be careful with the toenails!
40
There's a lot of bitter dick on this thread...
41
I vote #2. Being super attentive the first time and taking directions so you get it awesome and right takes some focus in the big brain. Losing the erection seems likely to happen. If it doesn't come back with some fun further making out, take a nap and relax and go to town on the poor boy when he wakes up. Or, heck, tell him what you'll do to him on the next date. I bet just talking through that should help with the current 'problem'. =]
42
No big deal. This happens all the time. A lot of guys get nervous with someone new.
43
Maybe some of the dissenting posters have a point that THE MANNER in which she's expressing her wishes could be putting a damper on things, even if they haven't exactly expressed it in the most tactful language. And so far I haven't heard a single writer suggest that she shouldn't give any directions at all or that she shouldn't expect to come at some point in the interaction. That said, any LW who would sign off with something like "Fragile Ego Males" is asking for a shitstorm. Imagine a male her age signing off with something like "Frigid Cock Teases" or "Stupid Sluts".

Plus she never mentions a guy refusing this arrangement. So every single guy she's had has gone through with it and her only complaint is the occasional awkwardness of a flaccid cock. I think with that history in mind she could have come up with a more appreciative sign off.
44
I've been in theory two-type situations. No big deal. Have fun and keep at it!
45
@43: I don't think it's even necessary that she must be being an asshole to the guy during the instructions. A guy's dick might go limp simply because he is concentrating on what he is doing with his tongue and hands, and his dick knows perfectly well it isn't getting any action until she's had hers. I can imagine that getting a lot of instruction along the way might contribute to the level of distraction (as distinct from mood killing). The only real problem here is that she just needs to realize that the outcome is not at all surprising if those are the inputs.

I suspect she may be being kind of peremptory once it's his turn to be on the receiving end. Trying to forcibly fluff a less than cooperative dick is a sure way to get it to dig in its heels, and that _does_ count as a mood killer. That, too, is perfectly normal.

For her to describe that as "dick panic" and "fragile ego" is where her inner asshole starts to really shine. Imagine reversing the genders of the actors. Start with a man, who thinks it's "polite" that he is on general principles the one to come first; his partner not only spends some fair amount of time concentrating on making sure that happens, but takes a fair degree of instruction from him during the process; upon finally blowing his load, he reaches down and is chagrined to discover his partner is not already soaking wet. Determined to rectify this, he rubs more industriously, with predictable lack of results, then blames the woman for having a fragile ego and being, I don't know, "frigid" because she does not instantly lube up under his probing fingers. Nobody in their right mind would hesitate to call that man a jerk and a moron, and sympathize with his partners for putting up with such ham-handedness.
47
You stupid, stupid woman! You make a guy into a dildo and expect him to retain the hardon that comes from being a conqueror.
A smart woman knows that building up a man gets her everything she wants. There is a lot of value in bs like "Oh, you're so big", and "Take me, take me, take me!" etc as opposed to "Stupid, do it lower"
48
So, she's 20-something, possibly dating 20 to 40 year olds? For some guys erectile response at 29 or 39 isn't quite what it was at 19.

@42 +1 -- many guys are naturally sensitive to anxiety which is higher with someone new.

@35 said "'she comes first' is bullshit. ... Why is it 'polite' for that always to be the guy"
--> = biology

In male-female sex, on average, males have more prolactin = reduced interest in sex after coming, and a refractory period. Females don't and most remain physiologically turned on after 1st orgasm.

Individuals vary of course but for a rule of thumb, she comes first rules for male-female sex.

In male-male sex, partner w/ less of a pronounced post-orgasm snooze comes first, or you take turns on who comes first if you're both equally disinterested after coming. On a first hookup if you know you're a pronounced come-and-snooze type you should say "you come first, dude."
49
I'm betting there's some lack of self-awareness going on here. She doesn't say what her preferred activity is. If it's PiV sex, and she's grinding the hell out of him with her pubic bone, maybe it's a crushing experience for the dude. Literally. She doesn't mention ERs, so at least we can assume she's not actually breaking any dicks. But still... after your dick's been seriously beat up for 20 minutes, it may just need a respite. Like to heal up for a couple of days, which might explain the lack of second dates.
50
Getting a woman off makes me super hard, so I can't even fathom #2.

I'm voting #1.
51
"as is generally the polite order of things, the lady comes first."

This is the problem. Not universally, of course. It is a philosophy I generally adhered to myself, when I was married to a woman. But in her case, it is. An unvarying and selfish, controlling and one-sided routine. Maybe, the next 8-10 hookups, she should make the guy come first, then start into her routine, and compare the results. After all, it sounds like she has left so many men unsatisfied that even if such an experiment results in her not coming all 8-10 times, the cosmic balance is still way in her favor.

Not to be too cruel to the LW, but I can envision an awesome HUMP comedy porn short interpreting this letter.
52
@11: Yes, your braggadocio about all dicks in all possible contexts does make you sound a wee bit inexperienced. "WHAT, A NAKED LADY?! AND SHE WANTS TO HAVE SEX WITH MEEE?!"

I know the penis is the eternal optimist, but there's occasionally a disconnect.

@47: "the hardon that comes from being a conqueror"

This, however, there's no excuse for. Some boys/men like being conquered just fine.

No additional facts involved, I'm also going with theory 2, if they're going at it a half hour or more devoted to just her pleasure, without direct stimulation it's not surprising that they get "distracted" with the act and have to be built back up.
53
Oy...

I had a really crappy lover/gf for about 18 months which this LW immediately reminds me of...she was crappy because she was completely out of tune with me and basically uncomfortable with the idea of being in tune with me...it was like she actively fought doing anything that felt good to me.

This got dressed up in: extra-super-cautious about "safe" activities followed by focusing entirely on "this is what feels good for me, no, don't do that, do THIS.". Which meant that any attempt to do something that felt good for BOTH of us, that wasn't EXACTLY what she wanted, was just off the table.

This was all dressed up as "being an assertive modern woman" which was really some psuedo-feminist BS cover for fear of intimacy. That probably isn't the LWs problem, but the effect sounds the same to me.

Here's the deal: just because one asshole and one considerate partner makes for bad sex (for the considerate partner) does not mean that two assholes make for good sex. I know Dan says (and I believe he's right) that it is important for people to be a little selfish, but this is like the two wrongs make a right.

I'm with @14 - she is being an idiot...it's fine to be assertive but it's not fine to be an asshole...just like for us guys.

And no, this is her...if it happens once or twice, fine, you've thrown a guy off, but twenty year old dudes are generally only just past the "a breeze blew, so my dick got hard" phase. One or two sensitive guys get some performance anxiety? Sure. Not a pattern like this. And even then: why not get him hard again with a BJ...clearly if he lost his boner, it hasn't been in you.
54
I'm with Theory Two. If you're sitting there focusing on taking instructions and performing a difficult job like working the female arousal cycle, that kind of overshadows the mental mechanism that drives erection. Also, inflating a dick takes a lot of hydraulic effort, and after a while the muscles clamping it down just need a break. If she's the kind of girl who wants to shape the experience she gets and set the guy to specific tasks which distract him from his own arousal, she's going to need to ramp him back up after she's done.
55
Wow 47. A smart woman knows, if you do not open your mouth and say what you want during sex, YOU DON"T GET IT. Rarely, if ever. I had sex for 15 years without orgasm (stupid stupid woman). If only I knew then. And yes, she has to come first. Most of the time the dude is done after he comes, unless you are lucky and he can go multiple times in one night. My husband can get me off in a variety of ways, and I'm not too concerned because I know I'll get mine and it's not a big deal if it's now or in the morning or what ever. But hookups are different - no matter how safe you are you are taking risks so yes, you are right to insist you get the payoff. I think the problem is a combo of getting distracted and the diversion from what ever sex script the guy has in mind. Keep the sexy rolling after you come and don't make a big deal of it. He just spent a lot of energy getting you off, so give some of that back. But keep talking - I don't know how many times my orgasm was thwarted because a guy didn't/wouldn't pick up on my subtle attempts to guide him. Sometimes you really have to spell it out, and women get off different so his experience is not always helpful.
56
@55: Yeah, there's being dom-y and there's being afraid of female autonomy.
57
this is why i fuck dudes. we can't keep our cocks down.
58
And the dom-y thing works (if you are into that sort of thing), if the guy already knows how to get you off. Which you would have had to tell him at some point. The fantasy of being taken over and brought to orgasm by the sheer force of manly power is a lovely fantasy - but realizing it usually takes a bit of time and effort to get right, even if you've got loads of chemistry going. Not generally recommended for first time hook ups. Better to err on the side of having an orgasm. However, just like dudes women can build themselves into a rut where you can only come in a certain way, but the kind of experimentation it takes to find all the ways is better done with a steady partner, casual partners aren't usually going to have that much patience with each other
60
I don't see why you can't just finish in whatever order you happen to finish in, and whoever finishes first then finishes the other person off.

This seems like a sound strategy to me.
61
This one is a head-scratcher. As a straight guy, she sounds very, very sexy. It is an absolute turn-on to be with a woman who takes charge of her sexuality. I would not feel like I'm being used as a dildo (though, truthfully, that sounds fine on occasion). Everyone is different but going down on a woman for however long just prolongs the excitement for me so I can't identify with the idea that her guys are losing their erections because of hard work (it IS supposed to be fun for both; if not, someone's doing it wrong).

I believe in theory 6 (or whatever number we are at): she's with younger guys and they ARE getting off but not in the proper order as she has established. If they are having intercourse, she may not be realizing that they are coming, too. If they are not having intercourse, if I were she, I'd be looking for spluge stains on the sheets, the couch, the floor, his underwear. In fact, if this is happening frequently, I think it is the most viable theory.

Which brings me to my two criticisms of her (and, as I said, I find her letter painting a picture of a sexy young woman): First: going in with some theory on the order of things is bullshit when messing around with another person. Sometimes he comes first, sometimes she does and, possibly, sometimes neither does. Sex with a stated goal of orgasm (rather than simply having fun and giving pleasure) is very selfish to me. Orgasm can be a measure of "success" (successfully pleasured, that is) but as THE goal? Nah.

Second: because I am a guy and have not had this happen (I have been sexually active for about 30 years), it is really hard for me to imagine this happening "pretty often". Unless she is dealing with a really high volume of hook-ups (no judgment on that, just trying to contexualize "pretty often") so that "pretty often" is a high # but low percentage, perhaps she should be a bit more introspective - either about the guys she's connecting with or her own behavior once she's with the guys. Most of the guys I know, would NOT be turned off or loss their wood because a woman is assertive. It would be the opposite (whether we consider ourselves in our teens or 20s or even now in our 40s).
62
@5 is right, and why didn't Dan mention / question this? Just go back to some foreplay to get his equipment back in the mood... if that doesn't work, then you might have a broader problem.
63
I would say #2 though she doesn't give enough info to tell for sure. (Is she really shocked that they didn't remain rock hard through x minutes of oral?)
And of course it's possible for a woman to be a selfish asshole in bed but for those crying gender reversal: the equivalent here would be her coming, shrugging at the limp dick and then rolling over and going to sleep. If a man tried earnestly to get his partner off, worried about not being able to and then wrote to an advice columnist for help he would already be getting all kinds of credit for his thoughtfulness and generosity.
64
@48: If you know you are a pronounced come-and-snooze person, then as soon as you've come, you make a point of switching your attention to making sure your partner finishes too. Rolling over and starting to snore on a partner who hasn't gotten there is what's "impolite." Claiming biological basis for your sudden disinterest doesn't cut it.

It's perfectly reasonable for the other person to want this. This is not at all the same thing as expecting your partner to devote their attentions to making you come first, and then be all concerned because they haven't been raging ready themselves the entire time they've been servicing you. If you want to talk biology, expecting that to happen -- in other words expecting a dick to remain hard the entire time from first erection through ejaculation, including through periods of intense concentration elsewhere -- is roughly equivalent to expecting most women to come solely through vaginal penetration. Not realistic, and displays a certain level of ignorance.

The "polite" response is "Thank you, that was wonderful." And not the slightest flicker of disappointment at seeing a limp dick, seeing as he got it while taking care of you. If you want to make sure that never happens, you don't also get to demand that you come first.
65
@41 and 42 have it exactly right. She just needs to relax and treat this as no big deal, just as a guy shouldn't insist too much that a woman have an orgasm their first time in bed. As she herself says, "Generally after a few times... we will end up having lots of fun." Focus on figuring out which ones you enjoy spending time with, and remember that you both are likely to enjoy sex more after you get to know each other a little.

@5, 62: "And should I keep trying to make him hard?" - that indicates that she IS getting her hands/mouth involved to try to restore his erection.

AFinch@53, "clearly if he lost his boner, it hasn't been in you." Are there really a lot of women who enjoy giving blow jobs but not if the dick tastes like pussy? Weird. I don't like going down on a woman, but I've never had a issue tasting my own juices on a man's dick or fingers or lips.


66
@avast, the way I read the letter, she's not upset that the erection wilted, she's upset that she can't get it to come back with her ministrations.
67
@63: No, your description would not be a gender reversal of the situation. Try again. Begin by describing the exact sequence of events in her letter: activities and reactions, exactly as originally written. Then swap the gender of nouns, pronouns, and anatomical equipment -- while leaving the activities and the reactions intact.

There was no shrugging at (whatever), rolling over and going to sleep in this scenario. And you conspicuously left out the "fragile ego" and "panic" reactions.
68
@67 Umm that's what I just did. If a man had taken the time to write Dan about his sincere concern at partners not getting off despite his earnest attempts, it's my contention that he would get credit for even caring rather than just coming and rolling over, unfortunate attempts at acronym aside.
I'm sure there's probably something in the archives but I'm not going to go looking for it.
69
Which is not to imply that he shouldn't get that credit. He should and so should she.
70
This one seems pretty simple:

"Lady comes first"
"Fragile ego males"

...she's a sexist douche. Sexist douches are bad in bed. Men who think women aren't really people (and thus don't have feelings) and use their partners as masturbatory aids aren't a huge turn-on for women. Women who think men aren't really people (and thus don't have feelings) and use their partners as masturbatory aids aren't as much of a turn-on for men as people tend to think.

This is because men are people, and have feelings. I know, I was surprised too!
71
@erica, 65: I agree with your advice. Just that, "Generally after a few times... we will end up having lots of fun." makes me think, "Yes, exactly...so what is the problem you are writing in about, again?"

And @66, I agree she is upset that her efforts to fluff him are not working, but then she seems to want to blame that on him (and him, and him, and him too, and that other guy...when does one realize the common factor is in all the incidents is oneself?) Maybe the answer is as simple as she isn't as skilled at giving head as she would like to think. But I suspect there is also a component of "WTF? Why are you limp NOW?!" and some rather mechanical work at restoring it, that may interfere with his getting it back. There is nothing so good at killing any chance of a second boner as impatiently waiting for its arrival. If she wants to describe that as "dick panic" she's being an asshole.

Regarding what she should do differently: Just grabbing his dick and expecting it to harden is the male equivalent of the difference between a great finger bang and a gyno exam. The hydraulics are involuntary. It's accepted as received wisdom that the biggest sex organ in the body is the brain. She needs to go to work on him there first. Like #5 says, show a little appreciation, a little sexy talk, do a little dance, get a glass of wine and have some romantic/erotic fun sharing it, make a few moves to perk his interest.
72
My experience with hookups is that the men aren’t that into me. They are only there because it’s easy. And they don’t have a particularly high opinion of me so they don’t care if I come or not. Only one man ever even tried to get me off during a hookup, either before or after he came.

If I tried to be directive during a hookup the guy might lose interest completely. He’s only there to grease his pole. Worrying about the orgasm of a slut he’s not that attracted to is not part of the deal. It ruins things for him.

Almost all men who were expecting a continuing relationship involving more than an occasional booty call *were* invested in my pleasure.

So guys losing interest after discovering that she has expectations? Doesn’t surprise me at all.
73
@72

Yes and no? The guy is losing interest *after* following all of her instructions. They lose interest during the process of figuring out that she's only interested in them the way your guys are interested in you. Once it becomes clear that she doesn't give a shit about them, they're not so into it. This isn't rocket science.
74
Regarding she comes first: yes. She comes first. Always during a hookup because there may not be a second time.

It’s not about gallantry. It’s about sex being over as soon as he’s come. If she’s going to come *at all* it’s going to be first.

Yes I know, there are wonderful guys here who keep going after they’ve come and can’t imagine that anyone anywhere would ever leave a partner blue. As someone who’s been around a bit, I can assure you that not everyone is like that in all circumstances. Leaving partners blue does happen. It’s a real thing in the world. Not only that, it’s not rare.

Disclosure: I’m a woman and I have a refractory period. I warn my partners ahead of time so they are prepared for some I-do-you and you-do-me. I don’t fall asleep, it’s post-coital glow time, so there’s cuddling and intimate talk and dirty talk and then we’re at it again. A guy who just wants to blow his load and hit the road is not interested in this kind of shit.
75
It’s not about gallantry. It’s about sex being over as soon as he’s come. If she’s going to come *at all* it’s going to be first.

That's not the way she described it; the LW made it about "politeness," and threw in a bunch of similar gender crap. If it looked like she was considering either herself or her partners as individuals, my reaction would have been very different.

Unrelatedly, wow--that's the first time I've heard of a woman with a refractory period; in my experience they usually have the opposite. During that period is it like you *can't,* or is it just like sensory overload?

My sympathies in re: the guys who are just looking for an orgasm, though, without being willing to provide any. That sucks (I was going to say "man, fuck those guys" but that's more like the opposite of what should happen).
76
@75 I can get overstimulated, so it's better just to let my body rest a while. Doesn't happen every time, but if the first orgasm took a lot of time & effort, then it's better not to try again immediately.

I've heard "unfuck those guys" as a shorthand for the sentiment you were expressing.
77
@74: "It’s not about gallantry. It’s about sex being over as soon as he’s come. If she’s going to come *at all* it’s going to be first."

Sex being over as soon as he's come is the mark of an asshole. The sort of guy who is likely to roll over and start snoring isn't very likely to wait for you to finish first, either.

As long as you aren't doing that, it shouldn't matter which of you comes first. In the meantime, being required to consciously damp down your half of the encounter because you aren't allowed to come when it feels good, constitutes the woman spoiling the man's experience, rather than vice-versa. (Witness last week's letter about the guy who makes his girlfriend come 3 to 7 times and then can't come himself. Can you say "overstimulated"?) If it isn't okay for him to spoil her experience, then it isn't okay for her to spoil his.
78
@40, lolorhone: "There's a lot of bitter dick on this thread... "

Hmmmmmmm......

"Did you come yet? Did you? DID YOU? WHY NOT?"

Yeah, that's...hot.
Posted by lolorhone on August 7, 2013 at 7:11 PM"


79
@ 76 Oh. I was assuming a refractory period was different from overtimulation/sensory overload (as a guy, I can get both.) "Unfuck" has a nice ring to it, though.

@ 77 That level of fairness isn't usually permitted in talking about sex; I'm given to understand that applying the same standards to men as to women is against the rules. But yes.

I notice, in conversations like these, a correlation between having a very negative view of the opposite sex and having a string of unsatisfactory sexual experiences. It seems like a self-reinforcing cycle, since bad experiences don't exactly make you think well of a group. My personal theory is that (as in the first paragraph of 72) having a very negative view of men drives off all of the ones who care what you think of them, and that the remainder aren't very good in bed.
80
Has any other letter brought about so much multi-paragraphed comments? Thank God I am gay. You straights are totally fucked up. :P
81
I think much of the orgasm confusion that happens is not from assholery or selfishness (although there is lots of that going around) just that many people, particularly young people, don't have a good understanding of how orgasms work for men and women, allowing of course for individual differences and preferences and what not.

Many women usually require more that just straight fucking to get off, so imaging that "sometimes she'll come first and sometimes he will" is a bit disingenuous. I did that shit for years thinking I was just supposed to come at some point during the fucking. Oh, it wasn't just terrible experiences, I can round most of them up to a good time, but once I learned how to get off during sex there was no going back. Most men, and the man I married, were more than happy to do what it takes. Of course it should be mutually satisfying, even if you don't get come right when want to. If it's that much trouble to get your partner off then perhaps it's an issue of compatability
82
Wow. A lot of guys on here are uncomfortable with an assertive woman in bed. I wonder if this has anything to do with her problem? Also, a woman being told she is intimidating/overbearing/overly assertive by a guy is not evidence of anything. Any reasonably (or moderately) assertive woman will hear this from time to time from guys who prefer their women subservient.
83
I don't have a problem with the LW's attitude at all except for the assumption that it's because of men's fragile egos and not just basic male biology.

While it's a male superpower to almost always be up for sex it's also a reality that sometimes the mind is willing but the penis is weak.

It's unfortunate that the things that make hookups easier: alcohol and drugs tend to also affect your ability to achieve an erection.

Even having an erection for an extended period of time without 'using it' can burn it out for awhile.
84
@81: "Many women usually require more that just straight fucking to get off, so imaging that "sometimes she'll come first and sometimes he will" is a bit disingenuous."

Why? Who said anything about PIV-only? If she is going to be coming at all, it will be from fingers, tongue, vibrator, etc. If he refuses to use those, that's a whole different order of rude. But as long as he is using them, whether she comes before him or after him, it will be with those same implements, and last time I checked, none of those have the problem of going unexpectedly limp after a prolonged session. So I don't see the problem of the specific order that they get used in -- as long as they do get used.

Mostly, insisting that the woman comes first, particularly if it takes some prolonged, focused manual work, carries a certain perfectly natural risk that the guy's dick got distracted while his hands were busy on you. To then get upset at him for not being ready to go right after all that work is kind of hypocritical. If you want a rock hard cock at your instant disposal, maybe twenty minutes of ignoring it while he's busy giving you yours isn't such a good idea.

That, and if it is limp, just sticking it in your mouth and starting in on sucking isn't particularly hot. A few things about the letter -- between her coaching the guys and her sentence about "And should I keep trying to make him hard?" -- suggest that her approach is a bit on the mechanical side. Contrary to popular myth, men have a huge erotic imagination, just like women do. Their sexual response originates in the big head, even if it culminates in the little one. If you want his cock to get hard under your ministrations, try starting with something at the far end of his body (say, an earlobe, or a toe) and work your way there teasingly, rather than going straight for the shaft and vacuuming it.
85
I've never had the fortune to meet a woman that verbally communicated what and how she wanted it right out of the gate. BUT, I have been informed by lady parts wildly bucking into my face (with accompanying soundtrack) that I'd done the right thing which led to condition #4 and therefor refractory period downtime.

What's the rush? Can't stand to be sober while fucking? (I'd like to propose "too fuck to drunk" as preferable anyway). Outside of parents or roommates potentially getting in the way, take your time and have fun.

Peace
86
Why aren't the guys speaking up and explaining their equipment to her? If they were cool and said reassuring things like "This happens sometimes on a first date, but you should know I had a great time, I loved getting you off, and I'm sure we'll have even more fun next time," then she wouldn't have thought she had a problem to write to Dan about. Women do this all the time: explain to a new guy that her body isn't going to come right now, it's not his fault and yes, she had a great time. I've given that pep talk many times. Do men not know how to give it, or is she just running into duds?
87
#86 Erica,

I've written before how talking about one's preferences, and dislikes, would solve a lot of problems. Alas, it seems that "isn't allowed", or some such newbie nonsense. One of the best parts of a good LTR is learning to communicate about all the "embarrassing shit", and, in the case of sex, learning the lessons for future use(s) of what works.

I reiterate, if you are already having sex, you've arrived: take your time and enjoy yourself. But, I'm a long slow screw kinda guy.

Peace
88
@avast: I'd agree with you if everyone were as well-educated about sexual communication as those of us who comment on SLLOTD, but I'm a twenty-something girl (like the letter writer) and I know my peers. Most people in their twenties are hooking up with other people in their twenties, few of whom know anything about what they're really supposed to be doing. Many women don't know how to get themselves off, and many guys assume that PiV is usually going to be enough, an assumption confirmed falsely by the many women who fake orgasms to get bad sex over with. I'm guessing you're a decade or two older than drinking age, so I think you should remember that we still have to pick up most of our sexual knowledge through trial and error and sharing info with friends, which takes quite a few years. If one is lucky and not overly shamed by the culture, one can find good internet resources, but there are just as many terrible internet resources as good ones.

Basically, I wouldn't be surprised if "she comes first" and "Fragile Ego Males" are both things she came up with from vaguely hearing things swirling around in the culture that explain her experiences. If she hooked up with guys a few times before she started this instructional routine, she probably found out that guys will usually PiV, come, and then assume it's all over and be surprised when one is still unsatisfied. If the instructional routine just happened to coincide with the early-mid twenties drop-off in insanely easy to maintain erections, she probably assumed that it was the instructions that make the problem because it wasn't one she had before.
89
@84 not necessarily. She didn't say what she needs to get off, whether it involves p/v or not. For me, my husband fucks me pretty hard while I work the clit, and yes this means he delays his orgasm, and sometimes it's difficult for him to come after he's pushed it back for so long. But he does it for me cause he's awesome. And I do what ever it takes for him. It's not always p in v, but we're married. If one of us wants an orgasm, it's not that far away.

The LW may need to work on her delivery, but she is miles ahead of where I was in my twenties. And those dudes walk away knowing at least one way to make a woman come, and the idea that sometimes it takes time and concerted effort. Getting it all to work for everyone is the next step. Knock yourselves out kids, it's what your twenties are for
90
@86: ding ding ding! This sounds like a problem that could easily recur if she's hooking up with men who think sex should be a completely nonverbal activity and aren't used to asking for what they want. I've experienced this issue a few times myself. What she wants to do is try and get them talking dirty to her, and also lavish a little attention to them (according to their instructions) at the same time as they're trying to make her come.

I also have to question putting so much pressure on the first hookup in general. This is why I made a habit, when I was single, of making out with someone and getting his phone number but NOT going home with him the night we met. What you want to do is get together for Sunday afternoon "coffee" when you are alert, sober, and excited to see someone again!
91
@65 - I like your overview: if it works out after a few get-to-know-each other test runs, then what is the problem exactly? The best sex takes a little practice and familiarity with your partner.

And yes, to answer your question: I've met a few women who were not all that enthusiastic about oral to begin with, and were especially not enthusiastic after it had been in them. However, most were happy to apply a wash cloth before starting phase/round two of sex time and re-invigorating the guy with oral.

Really, the part that makes me call her out is this latter part: so, if she already got her rocks off...and she hasn't turned him off by being an asshole...why not simply say ok, no biggie, let's get you going again?
92
@75 RE refractory period: it depends.

If I’ve had a muted vaginal orgasm I can keep going and have another muted one and even another. Sometimes these are enough to prevent the blues if I don’t also have a clitoral orgasm, sometimes they aren’t. I like these, I have a good time, sometimes I squirt. But they are so different from clitoral orgasms that it took me about twenty years to realize that this is what some people call an “orgasm.”

A clitoral orgasm? I’m done. Just one, no blues, happy post-coital glow whether or not there’s been coitus. I’m too sensitive for much touching, cuddling is lovely, and I’m totally uninterested in giving anyone head. There are degrees here, from “oh if you’d only pressed on my g-spot just a little harder” to mind-blowing, but they are all good and I am always done. This is what I mean when I say I want to come.

I’m not done forever, but I do need that break.

(Yes, I know that modern anatomy says there is no difference between clitoral and vaginal orgasms, they’re all clitoral, but this is how I experience them.)
93
avast2006 @84: “Mostly, insisting that the woman comes first, particularly if it takes some prolonged, focused manual work, carries a certain perfectly natural risk that the guy's dick got distracted while his hands were busy on you. To then get upset at him for not being ready to go right after all that work is kind of hypocritical.”

Where did she say she was upset? I got the feeling she wanted to be instructed on good manners. He was polite and got her off and now she wants to do the right thing by him. Treating his lack of erection as a problem that needs fixing may or may not be the right thing and she’s heard that men can be very sensitive about their willies, so she turns to Dan for advice.
94
Eudaimonic,

Do you think I have a very negative view of men? I’m not sure where you get that. I’ve had good and bad sex with both men and women.

When all I want is a hookup my standards aren’t very high. The ensuing sex is not usually good and experience has taught me that it’s probably not worth it.

If I’m looking for something ongoing my standards are higher and I hold out for someone who actually likes me. The sex is usually better.
95
A clitoral orgasm? I’m done. Just one, no blues, happy post-coital glow whether or not there’s been coitus. I’m too sensitive for much touching, cuddling is lovely, and I’m totally uninterested in giving anyone head. There are degrees here, from “oh if you’d only pressed on my g-spot just a little harder” to mind-blowing, but they are all good and I am always done. This is what I mean when I say I want to come.

Huh. Yeah, that sounds pretty analogous to the male refractory period.

@94 Do you think I have a very negative view of men? I’m not sure where you get that.

The first paragraph of 72 looked like a classic example of the "Gender X are all assholes, and they're never good in bed" problem, which seemed relevant to the overall conversation; it wasn't directed at you personally. I don't really have any idea whether or not you have a very negative view of men (the rest of 72 didn't give me that impression). That first paragraph summed up the bitterness people sometimes get--and, after they get it, people usually don't make the necessary connection between that bitterness and bad sex. Bitterness doesn't actually drive off all prospective partners, just the worthwhile ones.

94 makes more sense to me; my approach was a little different (I usually didn't hook up with people who didn't actually like me, even for a one-off), but yeah, there's no downside to doing it the other way, once you've got the expectations under control. If only that hadn't been so damn hard when I was sober...

96
I read the column and all I kept thinking was

0) Cock rings. Buy one. Use it.

1) stop having hookups. Get a consistent buddy, and train the guy. If she wasn't starting from zero with each session, she'd learn something about normal, at least with that guy. And maybe not having to explain things each time would allow her some headspace to once in a while get him off.

2) if her problem is that the guys eventually wear out before she does, the obvious solution is that she needs more than one guy. Apparently she has a whole string of them, and at least a few of them will be game for an MMF threesome. How about she tries having two guys take turns? When one guy wears out, tag in for guy number two. Sounds like she's more woman than any one man can satisfy, despite a whole lot of trying.

How is it that I'm the first person to suggest MMF threesome?

3) One more possibility I haven't seen anybody mention. I've had women who get really really crushy on my cock. That's hot for a while, but once I start bruising, I need a break. Maybe she needs to do her vaginal crushing exercises on a dildo while she gets off, and ease up on the actual human dicks.
97
Possible answer - FEM thinks porn is reality, and doesn't understand that it's heavily edited. The only problem I see here is that she expects reality to conform to fantasy. The best people to answer the questions she poses are the guys she's hooking up with. OYM:SYP, and just roll with however your partner's body responds.

Also, intimidation is ALWAYS a function of insecurity. It might be entirely rational insecurity (like someone making you feel insecure and intimidating you by pointing a gun at you), but assuming she's not doing that, she might want to try fucking people who don't have a boatload of gender or sexual performance hang-ups making them insecure about sex. Or not - she's getting laid and getting off, so I'm still not really sure what the problem is. This is mostly a brag letter.