The Hobby Lobby/Obamacare Battle Over Birth Control Is Going to the Supreme Court


Hobby Lobby is seriously demanding control over what their employees buy with their earnings?

So, what restrictions does Hobby Lobby place on the rest of its employees' compensation?

Does Hobby Lobby NOT count the money that they pay to their employees for health care coverage as an expense, which they use to offset any taxable income?

At what point is your money and your life no longer subject to your employer's moral dictatorship? about a fucking nanny state.
I am pretty tired of Christians demanding the ability to choose what laws to follow because they decided to believe in fairy tales made up by Palestinian goat herders.
If conservatives (putatively) do not like government interfering in private matters--like business regulation--what makes them think that it's okay for a CEO to have the right to interfere in their employee's private matters--like their birth control?
It IS hilarious.
If Hobby Lobby gets to not pay its fair share for its religious beliefs, I want everyone who doesn't support military actions to be able to get a tax deduction to keep their money from going toward some of the military actions they don't support. (I'm not opposed to all military activities, but I certainly was to the Iraq war, and I don't recall getting a tax deduction based on that.)
@4 Well, obviously, the CEO knows what he's doing, otherwise he wouldn't be a CEO (alternatively, in the case of Hobby Lobby, because God has obviously chosen him to be the CEO), whereas the government might intrude into it's citizen's lives for any number of nefarious reasons. Look, if a CEO is doing something that involves reaching into the private lives of his employees, he's certainly doing to protect the bottom line, and ultimately, the jobs that make America great. Why do you hate capitalism so much?

Jesus. I'm pretty sure I gave myself a headache just trying to project myself into the mindset of a typical conservative.
Are Hobby Lobby employees required to wear that much eyeliner?
Mandy is really yummy......
"Companies" don't have opinions. They are not people.
Given Hobby Lobby's non-diversity views on employee benefits, I should think their hiring practices must also be suspect. They should probably be investigated for discrimination in hiring. Do they routinely reject Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, liberal Christian, or atheist applicants? Do they ask questions about church attendance during their interviews or application process? What about race and ethnicity? Do they feel entitled to cherry-pick their applicants to match their owners in that, as well?

how many conservative xtians work at Slog?

alert the authorities, someone, right away.....

Hmong (written as "Hmoob" in their adopted scribal system but still pronounced as "Hmong") lore holds that the human body only contains a certain amount of blood which is not replenished when lost. Thus, Hmong traditional medicine is (understandably) suspicious of drawing blood for tests as is common in Western scientific medicine.
Should a company owned by devout Hmongs be allowed to deny their employees insurance coverage for blood tests?

(90% of what I know about the Hmong people and their culture I learned from reading an excellent book called "The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down" by Anne Fadiman. The title is an approximate translation of the Hmong term "quag dab peg" referring to epilepsy, and the book follows a young epileptic girl whose care was complicated by the cultural divide between her American doctors and her Hmong family and community.)
@3 - yeah, most concise explanation I've seen yet.

So, what I want to know is, was the nice spokeswoman blinking so hard because she was having a hard time getting the whole spiel out with a straight face, or because she had so much eye makeup on she could barely open her right eye? Or is that a nervous (and covered) condition?
Honey...your bosses are demanding that their employees follow the same religious beliefs they have chosen for themselves. That's epic Constitutional fail.

I know that's hard for you to understand though.
@14 - I am trying to figure out what issue this will turn on - is forcing someone to offer a benefit they would be opposed to using themselves the same kind of intrusion as forcing them to use the benefit. Who is being discriminated against? The company owners are not going to be required to use the morning after pill.

As someone else on the WaPo site put it: is being denied the right to discriminate actually a form of discrimination against the discriminator?

This is a classic talibangelical legal strategy most commonly brought forth as the "public square" argument: my religion requires me to evangelize/proselytize; if you restrict my ability to use the public square (and the trappings of governmental endorsement) to push my beliefs on others, you are violating my first amendment freedoms of religion. The current case regarding town council meeting prayers is a more classic example.
@10: Corporations are people my friend.
In the video she says that she was against the gubberment forcing Hobby Lobby into covering "abortion inducing drugs" for their employees. Can someone tell me what drugs she's talking about?
are you people ignorant?

Hobby Lobby is being forced by the govt to pay for something that violates their beliefs.

No one is preventing the employees from spending their own fucking money to flush their fertilized eggs.

Is english a second language for you?

let us try again:

Mandy is really really yummy......
I want the religious freedom not to have my tax dollars fund war. I pay taxes to the US government, despite not being represented, since I am a Canadian living in San Diego..... but it is my firmly held belief that tax dollars should go to build roads and pay teachers' salaries, and provide health care, rather than training poor people on how to kill others effectively.

Where's my exemption?
While I truly hate to wish for the death of a fellow human being, I just can't let go of the hope that one of the Hard-Core Gang of Four will choke on a cherry pit over the Thanksgiving holidays.
@19 Hobby Lobby also reserves the right to redefine abortion and/or ignore medical evidence. The things they want to not allow - plan b and also IUDs - do not cause abortions. But the owner believes that they do. Plan B prevents fertilization, but many people still believe it prevents implantation, despite recent findings. IUDs can, to the best of my knowledge, prevent implantation of a fertilized egg. Neither of these is an abortion, since nobody is pregnant until a fertilized egg has implanted.

Some people seem to think conception is special and important, even though most conceptions, with no interference, will end up on tampons or pads or underwear or so forth often without anyone ever realizing a conception happened. The vast majority of conceptions never make it to birth, but that is usually considered fine and not an issue, since people only act like they really care about every conception when they can profit off doing so or control other people by doing so.
#10- Oh, but that's why the Supremes taking up this case is so bad. They are the ones who established that indeed corporations ARE people, and they have a right to spend as much money as they want to influence politics. Since as corporations money is how they speak.
Isn't Chalabi pronounces with a stress on the first syllable rather than the second? So it doesn't really rhyme with hobby or lobby, at least in English language renderings.
@14, that is an excellent book. And a very sad story.
If you're hungry, you buy food.
If you're in need of transportation, you buy gas or a transit ticket.
If you want to have sex but not make babies, you can buy your own contraception. Her turn, his turn. Distribute the cost of ownership.
If you're raped, file a police report and buy Plan B.
If you don't want to have sex, it's totally free.
@30 - So insurance shouldn't pay for vasectomies either?
I can't stand her smarmy face.

"Hobby Lobby and the Greene family do not wish to control the actions of our employees".


@30 Shouldn't the second to last one read "if you get raped, buy the services of a police officer and some plan B?" I mean, why should you get a cop without paying for it, too?
@31: No. Of course not. You stated that you're a lover of profit. Well, considering the insurance industry must cover pre-existing conditions there must be more room for the industry to recoup losses. We should do our part to help them by paying for the cost of the voluntary human behavior and proclivities we engage in.

how are they 'controlling' the actions of employees, you ignorant sack of shit?

who is preventing the employees from buying any contraception they want? asshole.
Your simplistic and childish comment of how you think a society should function would be cute if it wasn't so dangerous.

The cost of birth control is a pittance compared to the cost of pregnancy, childbirth, and another person to support... and that's for the whole community, not just the parents. People don't spend their lives in isolation chambers, they interact with everyone else in the community. One family's child influences, and is influenced by, the entire society. The costs associated with unplanned and unwanted children are higher than planned families and astronomically higher than even the most expensive birth control.

The same goes with food, shelter, clothing, education, safety, etc. A community that simply denies a poor person food because they can't buy it will end up paying a higher cost later in medical care and/or criminal justice.

Shit. You know this is how the world works. It's not all black and white as you state. Your trolling is obvious.
And business owners who are Jehovah's Witnesses demand that their employees' insurance policies not cover blood transfusions?

Does such demands never end?
@34 - What if you're a former smoker and get lung cancer? Or eating meat and getting heart disease?

For profit insurance companies are already saving money by preventing a pregnancy. Insurance companies are not the ones who started the lawsuit either; they seem to be fine with preventing pregnancy.
Hobby Lobby isn't being forced to do anything.

First, Hobby Lobby is not a Human Being, ergo NOT a sovereign citizen. Hobby Lobby is a piece of property. It is not a person.

Second, Hobby Lobby is not a private, non-profit association or organization like a charity, social club or church. Therefore, it is not entitled under law to assert freedom of religion or of association.

Third, as a public, for-profit retail corporation Hobby Lobby benefits tremendously from a multitude of infrastructure, services and support provided by federal, state and local governments - ALL funded by ALL of the tax-paying citizens, regardless of those citizens creed, culture or beliefs. As Hobby Lobby gladly avails itself of this bountiful support by ALL of the people for the purposes of making a private, profit for its owners, We the People, We the Taxpayers, We the Sovereign Owners of this nation have the right through our representative government to impose certain regulations, requirements and expectations on the business and its owners so long as it enjoys its most profitable existence in OUR cities, counties, states and nation.

If they don't want to pay for their employees insurance as part of their employees compensation, they are free to either pay a lump sum to each employee to get their own coverage independent of the company or to provide no coverage or payment whatsoever and simply pay the government tax penalty.

Since Hobby Lobby has chosen to operate as a for-profit, public company instead of a non-profit, private church, club, association or organization, it is not entitled under the Constitution to assert a protection of religious choice or association.

Once again, we have need to make a distinction between public and private as well as between corporation and human being.

If the Supreme Court fails to uphold these two fundamental distinctions in law, the nation conceived in our history, laws and founding documents will be further eroded in deference to this era of government exclusively of, by and for the banks and corporations.

A retail corporation is NOT a church or citizen; it is property. We the People do ourselves and our nation great harm, possibly irreparably, when we confuse these fundamental distinctions.

@24 - Best comment on here. I'm with you. Their herd needs to be thinned.


How could Hobby Lobby be forced to do anything against its "conscience" - it doesn't have one. It isn't a person or even an association of people. It is property, conjured into existence by a piece of paper and made manifest by a bank account.

If the government and the courts cannot discern the difference, we need to amend the constitution to state succinctly and distinctly that a corporation is not a person, it is property. While owners of corporations may be citizens, corporations as pieces of property are not.

We must draw a bold, clear line of distinction.
Raindrop bravely stands up for the poor suffering health insurance companies @34.

Because poor people who can not afford healthcare are just parasitic nothings who deserve nothing.

But won't someone think of the poor insurance companies and their profit margins?

Also @30, you are forgetting that for many women hormonal birth control is a maintenence medication for many serious health problems. But hey, fuck those women and their slut pills, right?
did anyone else notice how yummy scrumptious Mandy is?
@41, yes let's: "Here is the full text of the initiative we will submit to the Washington State Secretary of State in January."
Anybody can afford contraception for just like they can afford to put gas in their car, a chuck roast, or buy a new battery for your car.
... just don't asks those with religious objections to subsidize it. I think that is more than acceptable compromise. I'm fully in favor of these products available to anyone, even teenagers under 18.
@34: "You stated that you're a lover of profit."

Yes, but he's not as horrible as yourself, apparently.
Just because YOU can afford contraception, fuel, chuck roasts, and car batteries does not mean EVERYONE can afford them.

We subsidize others in need because doing so benefits us even more.

Also, fuck religious objections. Religious fuckers cannot accept the use of taxpayer funded public works and then turn around and deny giving back in turn to the communities they take from.
@47 - I'd like to think so. My belief is that companies can make as much profit as they want to as long as they're not fucking over people to do so (such as retroactively terminating health care policies). To my knowledge, for-profit insurance companies are still making profit even with the ACA, so there's apparently no problem here.
#34 what an incredibly lame point. Almost all medical expenses are a result of life style choices. You eat too much bad food. Don't use insurance to pay for those gluttonous consequences. You downhill ski. That is bad for the environment and a frivolous past time. Don't expect your "employer's" insurance to cover you if you break a leg. You have too many kids causing you to lose sleep year after year, well your heart specialist can send a collection agency after you. You have sex and get AIDS, well don't expect your celibate employer to provide coverage for that. Get it. Oh and yes sweets, birth-control is health care. Pregnancy is very taxing on the body. Multiple pregnancies are a serious health risk. As for no sex, women should not have sex like men should not take any risks to make their lives better. And of course a good sex life makes your life better. The realities of women having sex should not be singled out and put into a health care ghetto. Sexually active women who are opting out of having kids are not making immoral choices. They are simply getting on with their lives as humans in a modern world.
FYI if you open it the video in YouTube, it says that it was uploaded on October 31, 2012, not 2013.
Liberals are crazy. Hobby Lobby is not telling people what they can do with their money, they are telling Obama what he can't do with theirs. It's a thing we used to call freedom.
@52 my guess is that the individual employees pay part if the insurance cost through a payroll deduction. Shouldn't they then be able to choose to receive coverage for contraception? Or is freedom reserved only for people who own businesses?
@20 - Hobby Lobby is being required by the government to purchase health insurance. Health insurance companies, across the board, are being required to cover contraception.

Health insurance provided as a perk of employment is, essentially, the employee's own money, which she may spend as she sees fit. I don't see how using the health insurance premiums your employer pays on your behalf for medical procedures of which they disapprove is any different from spending your wages or salary on anything else you happen to desire.