BREAKING: Woman Not Wanted at Gay Orgy! Must Credit HuffPo!

Comments

1
I have yet to see a gay male pornographic film to which the Bechdel test can even be applied, let alone expect to pass. And then you pop over to the lesbian side of the video site and it's like they never talk about men at all!
2
This is nothing to do with equality. I doubt very much that lesbians at a lesbian orgy (are there such things? I'm gay, so I'm merely academically curious) would allow a straight guy to watch and/or participate, but I can't speak for them.
3
Dan and Terry, "not doing the gay thing right"? That I'd like to see. Oh, crap, I'm a straight female so I can't see it. Bummer.
4
I call BS on Dan and Terry not having women in the room while they're having sex. Why, I was walking past their hotel room one night while they were going at it and I distinctly heard them calling out for Anna Lingus, Ima Cumming, and Pearl Necklace.
5
Too bad Barry's friend listened to Barry. I wouldn't go so far as to say he was setting up a story [there's bound to be some column inches in crashing a gay orgy with a newbie chick], but I don't think he was really focused on picking a venue that would turn out positively for his friend's shy, but earnest, first toe in the water.

I hope she isn't dissuaded, and has better luck next time.

6
Wait, I have to have sex in front of or with women now to not be misogynistic? Can't I just, say, respect them and treat them as equals?
7
Sounds like a straight guy trying to make himself sound more cutting edge and progressive than he actually is by talking about something he knows nothing about, probably in an effort to get laid.

Straight people is so dumb sometimes.
8
Not to mention, none of the lesbians I've talked to will let me have sex with them. And I'm a totally nice guy, too! Why are lesbians ALL such bitches?
9
My sex partners (and observers) have been overwhelmingly male. I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to women everywhere for this obvious misogyny. I am going to have to have sex with and in front of a lot of women to make this right. I would like to also take this opportunity to preemptively apologize for my ineptitude with women to the women who help me make this right.
10
I'm going to go fuck my husband on the View so I'm not a misogynist.
11
Barry should have taken the newbie lady over to Shibaricon, the HUGE STRAIGHT BDSM (rope, specifically) convention that was also in Chicago that exact same weekend.
12
Mr O - So you'd rather think him a cretin than a fiend?

The operative phrase seems to be "when we were invited". Who invited "them" and what was that person's connection to the all-male orgy? Was he alone when he was invited, whether or not the invitation was expanded to include his friend? Was his friend present and clearly presenting as female when the invitation was extended? My guess would be that at best there was a misunderstanding and he didn't realize that the person who invited him and said to bring his friend along thought his friend with a non-gendered name to be male.

The piece itself sounds like a cross between classic straightsplaining and post-gay Utopianism in which we just can't have segregated things any more.
13
Oh, and I forgot my young friend, just coming out, who's been getting grief from women about discriminating against them. I think that may deserve a Ricci Award.
14
So a bunch of privileged white dudes want to keep their "penises only" boys club going in a semi-public space, a woman is insulted and excluded in a very misogynistic way, which prompts some other white guy writes a whiny but basically innocuous blog piece about it, and that's the battle that digs deep into Dan's soul and makes him pick up his cudgel to defend his male privilege with a big pouty face? Oooookay.
15
Oh, Ragu. Someone unjustly accuses all the gay men at IML of sexism, misogyny, and transphobia and I took that seriously - because I take sexism, misogyny and transphobia seriously. Worthy of addressing even. You don't take those issues seriously, it seems, otherwise you wouldn't object to my addressing the writer's point/charges/head-up-assedness.

Have a nice day.
16
Oh, and IML is a "bunch of privileged white dudes," says Ragu.

Ragu? Meet Ramien Pierre, Mr. International Leather 2014:

http://chicago.gopride.com/news/article.…

The glare of his white privilege is nearly blinding, isn't it?
17
Sometimes I wish I was gay... a 150 person orgy sounds like fun, and I'll bet it was pretty easy to set up. I can't imagine finding 75 straight women that would meet up with 75 straight dudes for that kind of fun.
18
Ragu,

How the fuck is a private suite a semi-public space? How is it misogynistic to politely explain to a woman that she has happened upon a male-only sex party to which she was clearly not invited? Private sex parties, even ones with lots of people, are not semi-public.
19
Um, isn't Ragu a satirical spoof of Raku? Kudos.
20
lol, good job, "Ragu."
21
Worth pointing out here that this guy is also not helping the feminist cause either by calling out something as misogynist that is clearly nothing of the sort. Thanks, fella, for making it even HARDER to get taken seriously when there actually IS misogyny going on. Ten bucks says his article is already the toast of dozens of MRA forums illustrating some bullshit point about bitches be crazy. Ugh.
22
Ah! Ragu! Raku! I felz for it!

Ha ha! I'm a dolt. xxxooo
23
So has Dan not figured out that ragu is a parody of raku yet? Or is he proceeding as if it's real just to stay on the right side of Poe's Law?
24
Haha. Questioned answered. It is really tough to tell sometimes...
25
I agree that this guys is an idiot and the shy friend he dragged up there was probably relieved to get the fuck out but...
" Each of us gets to decide who we want in our room when we're having sex—whether we're having sex with one person or 149 people. "
Isn't it kinda the nature of an orgy that you DON'T get that much say in who joins in? If there's someone who is a total turn-off to you do you get to vote him out? And did they poll the crowd for bisexuals who might've been into a woman joining in?
I'm mostly joking but I have no idea of orgy etiquette so it's a somewhat genuine question.
27
When I went to college the frats were exclusively for men, how misogynistic... Also in our own backyard O'dea High School has banned women, truly, sexism is alive and well...
28
@49 Misogyny takes many forms -- all the word means is hate of women. I've met a very misogynistic gay guy (I hope he grew out of it, he was young) and he was glacially cold in his detestation of women. If he could have pressed a button and had us all keel over dead, I kinda think he would have. Because he had no use for us at all.

I'd guess there are probably a few gay misogynists who are just trying to get Manly Points by slagging off women (just like there are probably some girls who hang out with straight bros who like to score One of the Boys points with homophobic jokes), but I haven't met any.

I don't think the guy who wrote the Huffpo article has met either type, at least not in the course of researching this piece. What an asswipe.
29
Mr. ven @12, I suppose that there may have been some honest misunderstanding about what was going on, and who was invited or not, but--for anyone of any reflection--that should have prompted an article about his oops [in whatever contextualization he might choose] rather than about IML's institutional misogyny. So, a cretin, a fiend or a doofus, take your pick I suppose.
30
As someone who attends BearPride and IML almost every Memorial Day, I agree with everything Dan has said here.

Although IML welcomes voyeurs to enjoy the multitude of exhibitionists, IML is not a gay zoo for straight men or women to visit for their misguided amusement, especially when expressed through alternating giggles and gasps like silly, rude and ignorant adolescents and religious prudes.

Second, if you come to a play party, you came to play, whatever role you choose. Play parties really aren't for casual observers.

If you want to watch without being involved, the IML sells some of the best BDSM and leather porn found anywhere for you to watch in the safe and completely uninvolved space of your own hotel room.

If you want to observe BDSM demonstrations, several sessions are held by vendors in the IML market; they welcome you to observe, to learn and, if you're lucky, to participate.

If you want to experience a fetish community for the first time, seek out a friend or sponsor who is a member of the community to help introduce, interpret and acclimate you. If you don't know anyone who will serve as your "buddy" at IML, perhaps, you shouldn't attend until you better understand the community. Perhaps, you need to start by making that friend or group of friends back home or online before you make the jump into the deep end by attending IML or a play party.
31
Wait, so women can't be gay now? Did we just genderize "gay" so that it's only men?

I mean, not like that isn't how the world acts already, though. Lesbians are about as invisible as straight women, so big surprise if Dan the Gay Man is going to go stomp all over gay women the way straight men do to, you know, everyone else.
32
Dan, is it possible that like a typical, scared little straight puppy in any situation where gay men are the majority that Barry wanted to go to the play party but brought his female friend as his "safety word" for a quick exit just in case he couldn't handle the reality of the situation?

Poor girl.
33
If it wasn't for the login, this was straight up genuine Raku.
34
@31: Wow, you're an idiot. Women "genderized" gay in the 1970s when they insisted that gay = male and insisted on "gay and lesbian community" in place of "gay community."

Read some history, then blog indignantly. Not the other way around.
35
@33: Are Ragu and Raku... the same person?
36
Mr O - "Why have you to fight when I could have the cretin or the fiend?" is a line from The Lion in Winter. They don't run to a doofus, alas.

I was just coming up with the best case I could deem plausible for the writer. He does manifest fairly classic post-gay thinking typical of the straight man who kinda sorta thinks the world would be a better place if nobody were an exclusive same-sexer, and so that's what his grasp of post-gay leads him to project, that there is no more icky exclusive homosexuality and no segregated-by-orientation spaces.
37
This whole kerfuffle has been an education for me. I never heard of IML or Dinah Shore weekend before this post. After reading Dan Savage for 5 years, I'm still learning.
38
More photos of Terry at IML, pleeeeease.
39
@34 Thanks for the verification that gay = homosexual man. Seems I can't use the word gay lately in an online conversation without some putz chiming in that gay means homosexual women as well and I should be more clear, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Only thing worse that a word nazi is a stupid word nazi.
40
Everything in your write is awesome and I completely agree except for the part that you write "All you see at those kind of parties at IML—all you see at the orgies at IML—are vanilla types in tennis shoes having vanilla sex wearing the harnesses they bought earlier that day at the Leather Market."
After already stating you do not attend these orgies I am not surprised you said that.
The play parties I attend are amazing hard core fun and intense..
41
I've gone to IML every year since 2002 and I have YET to be invited to a men-only orgy.

HELP HELP, I'M BEING OPPRESSED!

Shit, I spend more time hanging out in the smoking area out front catching up with friends I only get to see once a year... or hanging out with the bootblacks because bootblacks are awesome.
42
Ugh.. THANK you... Barry's bratty entitlement as a straight guy is abhorrent. Thinking he and his girlfriend can just waltz into any private sex party to watch - like they're at the science fair - and when asked to leave, fly into the faux rage of "WHAT ABOUT GENDER QUEER PEOPLE?!?!" makes me wish the gay movement was still underground.

And he has the fucking gaul to call himself a "sex-positive, GBLT ally."

Sorry... Barry... you're not an ally. You like your gays like you like the fish in a tank. They're pretty to watch and funny to laugh at. But no... you are not an ally if you come to one of our events with the OBVIOUS intention of calling us "woman haters" because we wouldn't let your girlfriend watch us fuck.
43
Well, I learned something today.

Hadn't known that Dinah Shore is a lesbian icon. Actually, I hadn't really known who she was at all. I am a friend of a friend of Dorothy, though.
44
@35,

Ragu & Raku aren't the same person. Most of Ragu's work is easily recognized as a satirical parody of Raku. It's actually worth checking out Ragu's profile and reading through their comments. It's really well done and pretty freaking funny.
45
Not even the first time Dan got trolled by ragu. I thought this one was kinda funny, as Dan's post/headline was just a Hitler laden Godwin exploit that seemingly obviously shouldn't be taken seriously. But such is raku's reputation that she still riled some feathers.

http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…
46
Okay, I get that some straight women fantasize about gay sex in much the same manner as some straight men obsess about lesbians.

But, seriously, ladies, the line has to be drawn somewhere, and the men's play party door seems more than reasonable.

Frankly, it's just too creepy and weird for you to be there or to want to be there.

We love you, but we have to have some boundaries that are respected.

Gay men are way more tolerant of straight women in their spaces or at their events than lesbians ever would be of straight men (men, period) at their spaces and events.

Lesbians wouldn't let a straight man near the covered dish club meeting, much less their BDSM event.

Hell, even with all of my lesbian family and friends, I've never even heard of an annual lesbian event with group play parties (orgies). Is there such a thing? No, stop, don't tell me; I don't want or need to know that about my lesbian sisters.
47
Warning: Rant Ahead.

Why can’t there be just one place where GAY men can go to be away from women? Why do women have to insert themselves into every corner where GAY men go? NEWSFLASH: Ladies, gay men are GAAAAYYY. They don’t want your tities or vaginias. Got it? They don’t WAAAAAAAAANNNNNTTTT YOU!

Last weekend at Bearracuda (the Seattle Eagle event where larger “bear” type men strip down to their underwear to enjoy each other’s company) I counted at least FOUR (4) fucking women. Who the hell is so goddam stupid that they drag in their gal-pals to ruin an event like Bearracuda? Yes it is illegal to bar women from the premises. They DOES NOT mean you girlies were welcome there. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing KILLS the GAY erotic energy in a room faster than a fag-hag screeching at the top of her lungs for attention. And yet, there she was, with her piercing cackle and everything was so GODDAM FUCKING FUNNY!

I loathe women in the Eagle. It’s a gay bar - do you get that? There isn’t another Eagle for 1000 fucking miles and you idiots have to drag your snatch to the Eagle to scream her head off and be the loudest bitch in the room. There are literally thousands of bars in Seattle that cater to women, but that’s not enough. No - you have to go to the Eagle, too. {insert C-word here}

I would not dream of going to a Lesbian bar. Ever. Not because I don’t think I would be let in, because I don’t want to be the asshole who so ignorantly fouls an all-lesbian space with my male energy. To this day I have never been to the Wild Rose or any other lesbian space because I’M NOT A LESBIAN! But that sort of consideration is WAY beyond you ladies (you don’t give a fuck, do you?).

Go to the Cuff (you ruined it a long time ago). Go to Pony - with their gay porn on the walls and the nearly naked bio-hazard tattoo boy dancing on the bar if you have to (after all, what better place to find early twenty-something girls with ponytails more than Pony?). Even go to Diesel if you absolutely, positively have to brush your filthy pillows against a bunch of bears, but stay out of the fucking Eagle!
48
Does IML still need press this point? Why are they still giving out press passes to gawkers?
49
@47
I totally agree. I'm not into a lot of the gay bar scene but even I've seen that there is nowhere where a guy can go and just be with the guys. Maybe there should be a members only club or something to bar women. Nothing against women, but if they can have lesbian clubs galore, why can't we have just one club of our own?
50
@47
Actually, there was this one gay bar in NYC that NEVER had women in it...it was a gay sports bar. No shows, no loud music, just us regular guys who like sports and are also gay/bi. Gay and a sports bar...what incentive do women have to go there?

Why couldn't there be a gay sports bar in Seattle? Add that to the list of why this city sucks.
51
Dan is full of it! Women are invited to gay orgies all the time...ever see any of the "Bi-Maxx" videos? *wink*

But in all honesty, this is indeed the dumbest thing I've read in awhile. Why can't women get that sometimes gay men want to be gay men and the "fag hags" or "fruit flies" or whatever you want to call them aren't always welcome?

I can't stand the way some of these women are towards us...like we're cute fucking puppies or something who exist just so they have someone "fun" to hangout with.
52
Well, we didn't hear from the woman who got dragged to that party by the guy who wrote the article, but I would bet that if anyone asked her, she was probably feeling REALLY uncomfortable and was probably GLAD that they got "kicked" out.

I've been to my fair share of play parties (women only and mixed) and I know that *I* would feel uncomfortable at a men's play party even if I had been invited (which I can't imagine why I would be invited...)

Barry, it wasn't a wine and cheese party, it was an orgy. Did *YOU* really even want to be there? Or did you really just show up to prove a point?
53
@49, 50 & 51

I think a lot of women just have difficulty believing that every man, regardless of sexual orientation, does not desire her 100% presence in all things, all the time. It really doesn't matter how many times I use all-caps to clarify how serious I am, there will always be women who aggressively want to ruin the mood gay men have for each other as a way to punish them for being gay.

We still have two gay bath houses we can go to and be away from the feminist hordes, although we must risk STD's in order to enjoy that privilege (which is exactly what women want us to have to deal with). Yea yeah, that masoginsitic (intentionally misspelled). Whatever.
54
@Collectivism_sucks, that's a lot of anger your carrying around. Ya' might want to put it down at some point.
55
Utopian dreams and repressed anger don't really work out well. Just saying.
56
As I walked around the vender mart and the drive(smoking area). I saw women actively participating in the activities of IML. A Mistress even flogged her sub in the hotel lobby. This guy took a female to a private all me event in a private room. This was not an official IML event and not a pan sexual event. I have no problem playing in a pan sexual space and see were these events can bring the leather community together. However I also have noticed that the gay male leather scene is slowly disappearing from our local areas. Having a woman at all male play party just to watch can be uncomfortable for some and hot for others. If she was there because she identified as male and not to just gauwk that would have been a different matter. Yes IML is predomnantly male but women are not excluded from the official events in fact I was surprised to see as many women there as I did.
57
Not ALL straight men!
58
@53, Feminist Hordes.. That sounds scary. And they force you boys into STD infected bathhouses? Rude rude..
And Dan, seeing you're
In voice here today, giving @31 an earful( calling her an idiot? Cause she's not up to date with 70s Feminism?), perhaps you could jump in here.. @53.. Point out his delusional mind/ as if ALL women
Desire 100% attention.
Also, women who have sex with women still do call themselves gay/ guess they missed the directive coming thru the pipeline from those earlier Feminist Hordes..
59
Guys you don't have to fuck in front of to make me feel in included, just make me a Margarita and we're good.
60
I am a lesbian who has been to IML and I think it is ridiculous for a female to expect entry into private sex parties there--or anywhere. I stuck to public spaces and supported vendors by spending money, and worked against the (sadly accurate) stereotype of lesbians being rotten tippers by treating bartenders and other service workers appropriately.
61
And one more rant before I go to bed. Don't call gay guys misogynists. That is demonstrably false. Gay men love women, their icons are almost exclusively women, they often have more women friends than men. HOWEVER. That doesn't mean we want them or encourage them to watch us fuck.

There is some anti-male bullshit going on here. Some weird lefty feminist agenda that hates all men.
62
@61 .. So these weird lefty feminists who hate all men, they come in hordes too?
63
Again @61, calling some women fag- hags, sure sounds like some of you gay guys don't like some women/ and again Dan- you make no comment about these comments??
64
@53, if you're going to bathhouses to get away from "feminist hordes," you're probably doing in wrong.
65
Sorry Dan/ just realized it may be middle of the nite over there.
67
@47 and 49. I have never been bothered by the presence of a woman in a gay bar. Not once. Ever.
68
Ms Lave - It doesn't often happen that Mr Savage comments in these threads. Multiple comments from him in one thread are quite rare.

The FH term was generally not negative at one point in time, although it seems to have become so recently. It could be a reflection of how old-fashioned someone is, although, of course, where you are things might be different.

As for Mr JJ's point, speaking as a gay man with a narrow majority of friends in the F column and assorted female role models, of course gay male misogyny exists. It's a major reason why I couldn't seriously go full-on separatist. (Maybe I could in a matriarchy, in which the counterpart would have the systemic backing it lacks here.)
69
*International Ms Leather
70
If any straight man went to Michfest I guaran-damn-tee you you'd be barred at the gate. Why do women feel they need to be part of everything? I'd have thrown that woman out of the orgy too. YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE PART OF THAT. And you'll never come up with a reason valid enough.
71
If any straight man or gay man went to Michfest I guaran-damn-tee you you'd be barred at the gate. Why do women feel they need to be part of everything? I'd have thrown that woman out of the orgy too. YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE PART OF THAT. And you'll never come up with a reason valid enough.
72
My apologies for the double post.
73
@LavaGirl: I think the point Dan was trying to make is that the term "gay" is (unfortunately) ambiguous. It can refer either to both gay men and women, or to only gay men (which, as he says, was because lesbians in the 70s didn't want to have to be lumped in with gay men). Therefore, he is not ignoring or attacking lesbians if he uses the word "gay" to refer to men, despite the ambiguity of the term.

I think Dan has made it very clear over the years that he's an important leader for the whole GLBT community. Let's not get so caught up on semantics that we forget that and end up attacking someone who is doing all he can for the rights of the whole community.
74
I have been to iml several times and have been told and from what I have seen it is not a gay event it is a leather fetishevent. I have seen misstresses and their subjects. I have seen master with their female subjects. I have seen male with male as well.
However, if you are invited to a private party in someone's suite and then you get their and are told no women it is the up to the person who rented the suite.

This article is the stupist thing I have in a veryb long time.

The only reason you may have thought iml was a gay event os that so many of us go to iml. But it is a leather for everyone.
75
I haven't been to IML... yet... but this story resonates with me. I'm from Toronto and usually haunt the Eagle on Church during Pride and over the last few years there has been what I can only call female millennial tourists that are taking up more and more space year after year as if it was some sort of stamp that they needed for a Pride passport. I am not against women going to the Eagle but I am against, as Dan described, 'tittering' women there so that they can tell their office pals on Monday about the 'crazy gay leather bar' they went to. Last year there was a couple young women who looked like exchange students dressed in conservative J Crew snapping selfies with patrons, some of whom told them to f-off. In the same way that lesbians ask for women-only spaces (and us gay men honor their wishes) can there be some spaces that are men only? This is not misogynist. I've seen leather dykes and daring straight women at the Eagle and in similar 'hard core' venues and they are welcome but when we start to get invaded by people (men or women) who are there for what appears to be 'water-cooler bragging rights', let's just say the spirit of the place dies a little. There are Women's Only gyms in Toronto that are part of my gym club chain and I am not permitted to work out there lest my male sweat laced with testosterone offend the finer sensibilities of women. I suspect, however, if I opened a Men Only gym there would be a line up of offended people like this author to stand up for 'equality' and to make sure that my desire to sometimes only be in the company of men should be removed. Le sigh.
76
Thank you. That is all.
77
What I am hearing is Seattle is in desperate need of a men's only gay bar. But I've got news for you: the days of the men's only gay bars died with the gentrification of the gay ghetto and our attainment of civil rights.And frankly it's a small price to pay for equality.

That being said: no gay guy wants a vagina anywhere near where they are fucking or trying to hook up with someone to fuck. I'm glad that women who try to are made to feel uncomfortable because they should be.
78
@67, thank you for that. As a woman who used to frequently go to gay bars, I will give you the four reasons why women like to go.

1.) There are women like me who are into crossdressers, and that was the one place I could go to meet them. Bisexual crossdressers will go to gay bars if they have crossdresser nights, like the gay bar I went to did.

2.) Going to a gay bar is a blessed relief because it is the one bar where men are not constantly hitting on you. Although even there, one time a straight guy who had come to meet a friend tried to pick me up. Sometimes a woman just wants a drink in peace.

3.) Women have gay friends, and it would be unfair if they always went to straight bars to drink. I want to reassure montex that we don't want to have sex with you. Bars are a place to be social, they aren't just a place to find hookups.

4.) Yes, there is the curiosity factor, but that's a damn good thing. I remember as a young college student thinking the Ramrod here in Boston was a place of disturbing mystery--gay men were The Other and more than a bit scary. 25 years later I became a weekly regular. And it's straights like me, who saw gay men, even gay men in a group, as ordinary who helped get LGBT rights expanded.

I want to make it clear that I totally agree with Dan. There are places that women are welcome and places they are not. Gay orgies are no place for a woman, but I would hope that gay bars are, or at the very least if the gay bar is in actuality a place for orgy, that they at least have a front room with a bar where men can come up for air, where women can have a drink.
79
The women 'tittering' comment got me. I'm from Toronto and frequent the Eagle here. The last few Prides there have been an increasing number of what appears to be 'tourist' millenial-aged women that show up at the Eagle and start snapping selfies to presumably post and show their friends how 'hard core' they are. I have no issue with women at the Eagle but what I can't abide is what appears to be women there simply to have bragging rights with their peers as if the Eagle was a stamp that they needed to get on their Pride passport. Gay men respect lesbians when they request that some spaces be 'women only.' Is it too much to ask that we gay men can't simply have some 'men only' spaces? This author seems to think it is misogynist for same sex identified people (men) to not have the opposite sex present for a gay orgy. I would ask him to start his equality campaign at the chain of Women's Only gyms in my city - they are part of my gym chain (Goodlife) but some of their clubs are women only. I suspect if I opened a Men's Only gym (there are none that I know of) that he would be among the people lecturing against its very existence. If this author is straight then, as Dan pointed out, he is merely running into the limits of straight priviledge and his argument is that of a weak sophomore university student. So nice of him to be a tour guide for women at gay men only spaces. How thoughtful of him. Le sigh.
80
Whoops - I didn't think that my first comment posted - it apparently did - ah well, now there is two versions of the same sentiment lol
81
Great commentary, Mr. Savage, and I agree with your perspective wholeheartedly! Thanks.

Now, the following comment has nothing to do with the point of your editorial, but just for the record I would like to point out, that IML technically is NOT "a gay leather/fetish contest and convention." At least, not by IML's contestant criteria. It IS a men's leather contest, to be sure, and both the contest and weekend is most definitely vastly populated by gay men. But it is not a gay contest. Straight men, bi men, trans men, gay men -- all may compete and the contest has always been open to such (that being said, trans men might be a newer admission... I'm not sure about that).

If you want to cite a strictly gay contest, I'll point you to American Brotherhood Weekend (ABW) and the titles of American Leatherman and American Leatherwoman. www.americanbrotherhood.com In order to compete for those titles, you must identify and operate as gay/homosexual/lesbian. And be biologically male (American Leatherman) or female (American Leatherwoman). Contestants for the American Leatherboy title, which rounds out the American Leather Family, can be any gender, but must identify as a boy. That event happens in October.
82
After re-reading both my posts and everyone else's I need to modify my post; I do have a problem with women at the Eagle. I am not opposed to women ever going to the Eagle but there are times that I just want to have a men's only space. If I want to go into the back room and grab someone's cock I don't want to be thinking "hmmm, I wonder if that woman on the other side of the pass-thru is going to walk back here?"
Sexuality is a very personal thing and women need to respect that gay men do not want them around when the cocks come out.
I love women and have many female friends but being able to go to a place like the Eagle and have it just be guys is not any different for the same reason that straight guys don't ask women along on their 'boys weekend camping trip'. Guy energy needs to flow sometimes and it absolutely changes the atmosphere when that female energy is around.
I would ask this of Barry, the author; What is a straight guy doing there? If you do not identify as gay then get the f*** out of a gay orgy and take your tour group with you, please. I suspect that whomever asked Barry to drop in on the 46th floor did not invite the female companion and also presumed that Barry was gay (he was, after all, a man at a gay man's event).
This message is as important for straight men as it is for women to understand: Unless you are going to 'go gay' and whip out your cock, or you're gonna suck some, go away, we don't want you as a spectator. It's not a zoo, it's an invite only gay orgy. Apparently an invite was extended to you in error.
83
Dan,

What great commentary on the article that pissed a lot of us off! I'm female, a long time member of the "Leather Community", a former international title holder, and yes, I was at IML with my hot (female) fiance. And guess what-- I was hugged, kissed, and welcomed by hundreds of gay leathermen. While, it is true that there aren't a lot of females present at IML, it has never been a "hostile" environment for me-- mostly because I don't try to go where it would be stupid to visit. A bit of a correction-- it's International Ms leather (IMsL), but otherwise your response was spot on.

Pony
International Ms Bootblack 2009
84
I'm one of the Leatherwomen who attends (and volunteers!) at IML. I am also a Chicagoan. I publicly invited Mr. Barry to join me on a trip to the Leather archives so he could be educated on leather culture and history at the, but he was too busy to go with me before he wrote his fauxpology that just HAD to be published today.

He had an article he wanted to write when he walked in the door. He wanted to write it on the backs of women and gender nonconforming people and he thought he would get away with it in Chicago. He learned otherwise.

Thank you, Dan, for using your voice to clarify the truth of the matter. And for the record, I'm a skirt-wearing Leatherwoman who never has trouble finding a party that I am welcome at during IML - of course, I'm also not trying to attend the men-only orgies because, you know, I'm not a man.
85
@60 Jesus christ, that's a lesbian stereotype? I need to update my spreadsheet.

86
@78 says
2.) "Going to a gay bar is a blessed relief because it is the one bar where men are not constantly hitting on you. Although even there, one time a straight guy who had come to meet a friend tried to pick me up. Sometimes a woman just wants a drink in peace."

Yes I am sure it is really tough to have men approach you, a single woman sitting in a bar, and seeking out your company.

But don't you also see the humor: A straight woman dresses so straight men are aware of her tits, her ass etc and then complains about it. Or even just sits there looking demure and proper but she is female. But she gets "hit" on because the guy responds and says "hello." That's cause for complaint. Funny in a weird way. And I don't believe it.

(Obviously if a guy is being obnoxious and unpleasant and not taking no for an answer, that is a different matter. But that is not what you said. You said I am just so tired of men approaching me. Bullshit.)

Sometimes I wish I were gay so I wouldn't have to bother with crazy women.

87
While I am in no way supportive of women attending a men's orgy, I find some of the comments here disturbing. It seems like some of the commentors are taking this as an opportunity to talk shit about women in general. I notice that these commentors who are generalizing this woman's experience to all women are forgetting that she was guided there by a man. where is the vitriol for him? Why isn't he being held up as an example of straight people transgressing?

This woman was taken somewhere that her inexperience would not have prepared her for. i think Dan is quite right in laying the blame at the feet of the experienced dood who took her there. *HE* should have known better.

As for women in gay male spaces, remember that not every where has a strong lesbian community. In my city, there's *a* lesbian bar, and it's often populated by straight men. So, I and other queer women will go to the gay men's bars. Is it so wrong that we want to be surrounded by other members of our community?
88
@86 oh FFS, I've had enough with the meta already at dKos. Single women being constantly hit on at a straight bar isn't a bad thing. It's a good thing! From my point of view it's a chivalrous thing, especially in my case--I'm old, fat and letting my hair go gray.

But sometimes...I just want to have a drink at a bar by myself, undisturbed. A gay bar is a nice relief because those social expectations are missing. I can have a drink the way a man might at a straight bar.

It's too bad that social expectations aren't switched around the other way, where women are expected to do the asking and men are expected to wait quietly and look pretty. I think men as a gender would have an easier time of it being sex objects, being pursued, etc. My two gender cents.
89
@88

Why have a drink to be alone in a public place? Puzzles me (and somewhat different question of course.) Why not have a drink at home? (Assuming you live alone.) And then why sit at the bar per se (rather than at a table where one is more isolated)?

I, too, like to get out and have a drink in a public place - but it is for the express purpose of meeting some old fat gray-haired woman (though it _never_ happens.)
90
@56

Hey, Tim.

How's OKC?
91
I had a fruit fly friend once who would get soooo angry when only males would get invited to an after party, calling the host(s) "faggots." I tried to explain to her why she's not invited . . . .eventually I no longer could tolerate her as a friend even if I'd known her from kindergarden, as she needs to accept gay men were not created for her entertainment. We are not a fashionable hand bag Carrie Bradshaw.
92
@91

If the genders in this story were reversed, no one would even have to think twice about why a man was not allowed into the lesbians-only play party.

Barry and his girl friend deserved to get the boot. Regardless of their feelings of entitlement, they did not have the right or any good reason to be at a private, play party that was explicitly for men only.

Wrong assholes.
Wrong place.
Wrong time.

Barry can sell his butt-hurt indignation somewhere else.
93
@89 I'm not even sure how to answer that, seems almost part of the Turing Test to understand why a person would want to be able to occasionally have a drink at a bar alone in a big city. Also, being at a table in a bar only slightly decreases the being hit on effect.

I'm going to say the words "male privilege", even though they have been overused the last week.
94
this thread is comedy gold.

1. ragu is NOT SERIOUS. ragu is HILARIOUS.
2. raku, you will notice, has stayed the fuck out of this conversation. even though, as a vegan, she could correctly point out that leather is murder.
3. the idea that gay men can't be misogynists is laughable, as I have directly heard gay men say things, and do things, to straight women that would get straight men deservedly slapped or kicked in the nuts. if you think drag doesn't have an undercurrent of misogyny to it, you're delusional.
95
What does male privilege got to do with _your_ own personal experience of why you like to "have a drink at a bar alone"? For any sex?

The drink part I get. Being in a bar I get. The alone part I don't. But "occasionally " may be so seldom that it becomes insignificant to discuss.

So now I have a different question (if you care to answer):

1. Why do you think my question has anything to do with male privilege?
96
Sorry. My answer @95 is for question @93
97
@96 I invoked male privilege because you seemed to have a hard time understanding why a person might want to have a drink alone at a bar. I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that your difficulty in understanding it comes from always being able to do that at any time without any complications.
98
@97
So you'd want to have a drink alone at a bar just to have the pleasure of _being able_ to be alone at a bar? The "alone at the bar" is not as important as the "being able" part?
99
@99 No. I actively enjoy walking around a big city by myself. I find it exhilarating. As a mom, I don't have a lot of solitude, so I enjoy my time alone. Sometimes when I'm alone I stay at home and do indulgent things like long baths and reading books, but I also like wandering around someplace where there are lots of people around me, but where I can still be alone. I will often go to movies alone. There I don't get hit on because it's harder to tell I'm by myself. And I like being able to go to a restaurant alone. There I can drink too without getting hit on, but sometimes I'm just in the mood for a drink by itself.

This is a perfectly normal human impulse, stop trying to make it seem like some kind of freakish behavior. Dan posts things all the time which seem to indicate he's hanging out in a bar alone, or wandering around a big city alone. It's fun.

Of course I like going out and doing things with friends too, or my boyfriend. I like both.
100
@99
"stop trying to make it seem like some kind of freakish behavior."

You are the one who made the point about wanting to be alone in a public place and NOT wanting human contact. I was and am curious. I said nothing about "freakish behavior". Anyway, thx.

101
@87 - Speaking as a gay man in a city with a smallish gay community (Nashville), I can say with reasonable certitude that *MOST* women are welcome at our gay bars *MOST* of the time. We have one lesbian bar (that's really only "lesbian" on Fri/Sat nights) but our sisters are always welcome at "our" bars. Too, we're pretty welcoming when it comes to our own & each others fruit flies...if you're there with one of the gays, you're family and that's that.

The problem is (for lack of better terminology) the "unattached" women, the "titterers", the bachelorette parties & their ilk...the ones that treat the gay bars & the gays within like zoos that they come to gawk at when they get tired of the str8 guys at the str8 bars. Case in point: just this past Saturday night, we were out at our (gay) dance club. I was in a harness (not my normal club clothes) because there had been a leather event at a bar down the street. (We don't have an actual leather bar...just semi-regular leather nights at a couple of our regular bars.) I must've had a dozen girls over the course of the night decide that it was perfectly acceptable to grab on & give my harness a yank...and yes, I'm talking about the c-strap. Finally, toward the end of the night, I'd had enough when one girl started pulling on it from behind...I turned, gave her the Luigi Death Stare, and said "That's not yours. Would you like it if I started yanking on your bra??" She acted offended & stalked off.

All that to say No, it's not wrong to want to go out with others in your community, and here at least, you'd be welcome. We don't mind women...we mind women that don't know how to act.
102
@87 - Speaking as a gay man in a city with a smallish gay community (Nashville), I can say with reasonable certitude that *MOST* women are welcome at our gay bars *MOST* of the time. We have one lesbian bar (that's really only "lesbian" on Fri/Sat nights) but our sisters are always welcome at "our" bars. Too, we're pretty welcoming when it comes to our own & each others fruit flies...if you're there with one of the gays, you're family and that's that.

The problem is (for lack of better terminology) the "unattached" women, the "titterers", the bachelorette parties & their ilk...the ones that treat the gay bars & the gays within like zoos that they come to gawk at when they get tired of the str8 guys at the str8 bars. Case in point: just this past Saturday night, we were out at our (gay) dance club. I was in a harness (not my normal club clothes) because there had been a leather event at a bar down the street. (We don't have an actual leather bar...just semi-regular leather nights at a couple of our regular bars.) I must've had a dozen girls over the course of the night decide that it was perfectly acceptable to grab on & give my harness a yank...and yes, I'm talking about the c-strap. Finally, toward the end of the night, I'd had enough when one girl started pulling on it from behind...I turned, gave her the Luigi Death Stare, and said "That's not yours. Would you like it if I started yanking on your bra??" She acted offended & stalked off.

All that to say No, it's not wrong to want to go out with others in your community, and here at least, you'd be welcome. We don't mind women...we mind women that don't know how to act.