I Saw Three Black People in Vienna Today...


posts by people on vacation in Europe should be banned.
please drink a real cafe and eat something wonderful at Gerstner (Kärntner Straße 13-15).
(they also pack a great lunch to go....)
How about "As a white guy, it's not up to me to decide if it's okay, but I probably wouldn't have okayed this ad if I were the ad exec."?
what did you expect in the land of schiklegruber?
I'm a Black woman and I don't have a problem with it.
Ever since Afro Sheen went off the market I've been looking for something to perk up my curls.
It always amazes me how tone deaf Europeans can be in matters of race, as if Europe is some how evolved beyond racism. America learned it from somewhere Europe!
If this company sold an accompanying coffee kreemer named "honky powder", that would be... Worth a photo.
@2 has got it right. Get yourself a nice coffee in a legit, old-school Wiener cafe. And know that, in about 2007, there was an under-construction Starbucks in the Innenstadt with a banner proclaiming something like, "Bringing coffee culture back to Vienna".
My expectations are so low for mainland Europe, that if it's not as bad as Zwarte Piet or Marine Le Pen, it's a breath of fresh air.
Maybe someone could explain what is wrong with the label?

The company is (based on its web site e.g.
focussed on coffee grown in Africa. It seems respectful of Africa and its people and products so I am not sure what so many find offensive.

(True, the label does ignore white Africans so I can see some rankle there. But basically, sub-Saharan Africa is black.)

That's Vienna... have you seen the Negro sugar packets, yet? I had different ones from all over western Europe at one point, but they depressed me and I threw them out. Austria is bad, but more sad, and nothing is as depressing as the constant refrain of "I LOVE NIGGERS" when black and in Iceland.
Comments from people who were born in Africa or who have substantial African heritage would seem to have the most to say though I am curious why the (I presume) largely white middle-class American Cap Hill hipsters are offended. They must be seeing something in the label that I don't.

Is anyone offended because Africans have said something about it? Are Africans (or Afro-Americans) complaining about the label? Is it the name you find offensive? Or the images?

Personally, I'd defer to people from sub-Saharan Africa. If it bothers their sensibilities, then no go.

(btw, the company which owns the Afro Coffee brand is owned 49% by Red Bull, btw and 49% by a Thai family.)
One doesn't have to be black to recognize something as racially inappropriate any more than one would have to be gay to recognize something homophobic, nor a woman to recognize misogyny.

I voted that it's not OK, but not that it wasn't OK not to know. I am disturbed by it, but I'm also disturbed by the fact that I can't put my finger on why it's disturbing. It makes me uncomfortable.

We often ask ourselves to test whether something is off by substituting another ethnic/sexuality group.
Skinhead coffee? Chrome dome coffee? Redskin? Wife beater?

Mincing Fairy Coffee
Really sweet, really fruity.
What about American Spirit cigarettes?

(I am white)

In Europe, wouldn't it be more natural to associate Afro with the continent of Africa, not American blacks in the 1970s?

As such couldn't these simply be hip Ghanaians or Nigerians?
You are obviously still missing the point, dear Dan, as it's not the concept of anything being African, nor does it matter how other languages spell words that in American English say "AFRICAN"

It's not a matter of whether or not the advert is "OK"

It's a matter of asking the question...

"What action(s) must the company take to fulfill it's responsibility to Freedom of Humane Being?"

...in the event that a misunderstanding arise among any of the people who care.

Things are only problems once they become one [a problem] and many or most of the worlds problems are due to misunderstanding by one or more parties, perhaps it would be wise to seek an understanding

If the coffee's really grown in Africa, definitely OK. So I'm proudly voting #3.

Voting with the losers. This is like the '80s and the '00s all over!
@12 is correct. Afro Coffee is a longstanding brand of African-origin coffee in Europe. While Austria does not apparently have large numbers of African immigrants, who are mostly Turkish, Balkan, or Polish, those figures do not resemble the usual "pickaninnie" or "golliwog" stereotypes in any way. I'm going to give this one a pass.
A huge amount of coffee is grown in Africa. If the coffee is processed and packed in Africa, then the company gets the right to make a big thing of its origins. But even then, cheesy 70s silhouettes rather than images of what African people actually look like? Not impressive.
Btw, if you don't like the Afro brand, what do you think about Juan Valdez?
It's strong and good, like black people with natural hair. I think we can call this OK.
The kebab stand on Johannesgasse just off Kaertnerstrasse (next to McDonalds) is amazing, too.
If it's that it's African coffee, it probably skates.

However, it's the direct association of people with food that generates potential side-eye for me. So, if these figures were associated, for example, only with the iced coffee that doesn't have cream, and lighter-skinned people with the one that did, that would be gross -- and I'm white (I only play a tabby on the Slog) but I have read multiple black people objecting to that specific trope. Black people aren't chocolate, or whatever other food people care to "exoticize" using their images.

TL;DR: If it's really about the coffee being from Africa, it's probably okay. But there's a whiff of association between the substance of coffee and the skin color, and that's gross.
There's no "who gives a shit" option.
@7 Wait. Afro sheen went off the market??
If you haven't taken a look at the Afro web site
you might want to before offering being sure in your opinion.
@8: Europe DOES have a different approach to race than America. Though several Euiropean countries had colonies and earned a shitload with slave trade, slavery didn't really exist there. In most European countries, especially those that didn't have colonies in Africa (e.g., Austria), or only for a very short time (Germany), there is no sizeable black minority, and those blacks that do live in Europe are mostly first-generation immigrants from Africa, or at most third-generation. There is no significant, real equivalent to African-Americans. Neither did segregation and Jim Crow laws exist in Europe. In fact, 1936 gold medal winner Jesse Owens reported that he was much better treated in Nazi Germany than in the USA - he could lodge in the best hotels and eat at every restaurant. All these factors contribute to the fact that there is no such thing as a black civil rights movement and not much public sensitivity to matters of race. If anything, this sensitivity or the controversies of a lack thereof are centered around Muslims.

That said, Austrians on the whole actually are quite racist.
Oh, Dan.

This is the post where you finally have to realize you've had your last 39th birthday.

You look good and all, but 39 was a long time ago...
As a white straight male I'm not offended at all, and therefore no one else should be either. Carry on.
Rather then attempt to set up, or bait anybody who may see things from an understandably upset viewpoint, which is to incite misunderstandings, it would be better to direct your efforts to facilitate a better understanding of the situation. What you and many of your diehard, blowhard, idiot slogged opinions is doing nothing but adding to the worlds problems. There are few things worse than ignorants who believe they are knowledgeable.

So sorry to bring it up again, but the ignorance is screams silently beneath your words in the way you phrased the question itself. It is pointless to debate the "OK"ness of the company's chosen marketing and logo, because the only way to discern if it is "OK" is how they deal with IT, IF it becomes a problem.

It's the same process that turned your fuck up; your wrong handling with transgender language

It wasn't "not OK" until you could not -- at least temporarily -- show respect to the offended, likely oversensitive individual

It's what a person does after the fact; once something becomes a problem, it's how the "now a problem" is dealt with that defines whether it is or is not "OK"

If the company made dumb ass, ignorant, racist remarks such as the racist fucker AROARO, who seems to have trouble understanding that it doesn't matter whether you are exploiting The People, or the Land whom bore Them, both injustices of enslaving People or Place are patently wrong. European control and profiteering from African Land, is just as an ignorant understanding of right and wrong as the Americans who justified the wrongs of involuntary slavery

If the coffee company's marketing becomes a problem, judgment of right or wrong cannot be made while how they deal with it remains to be seen. After that, if they behave like anonymous dipshit all right OK all right OK, it is NOT OK, as a person doesn't not deserve to be shown any respect, until it's clear they refuse to be respectful when it's warranted.
Ah, Dan on vacation in The Land Of White Male Privilege--he must be in paradise. Does it get any better than this, Dan? I'm imagining you dancing around in musical ecstatics like Homer Simpson fantasizing about "The Land Of Chocolate".
I've never heard of this brand of coffee before, and I'm a European.

Other commenters have said it's genuine African coffee, proud of being African. So there isn't grounds for discontentment there. As for "afro", the only meaning is has in most of Europe is the haircut.

So Afro Coffee depicts black people in stylish clothes and in Afro haircut as part of its commercials. Where is it offensive ? I don't see it. Of course I'm not black, so my opinion doesn't count much, and you'd have to ask a black European his/her opinion.
The best thing the Austrians have accomplished is convince the world Hitler was German and Beethoven was Austrian.
As for so-called "racial insensivity" in Europe : you Americans make me cringe. Because you're so winning the fight against racism in your own land, are you not ?

Where do Zimmermans murder black unarmed teenagers AND GET AWAY WITH IT in a court of justice : Europe or the USA ?

Where do people publicly compare black politicians with monkeys AND AREN'T EVEN PROSECUTED FOR IT in a court of justice : Europe or the USA ?

Who has an history of racial apartheid, Europe or the USA ?

Whose civil services think nothing of asking you for your "race", and then of classifying you along that criteria, Europe or the USA ?

Yep, there is some racism in Europe, and being white means easier living than being anything else, that's for sure : police controls disproportionately non-whites. And the most racist places of Western Europe are Switzerland and indeed Austria.

But the justice system isn't complicit in it : racism isn't an opinion here, it's an offense. And the school system isn't complicit in it either : over here, black children do have non-black friends, something I didn't see happen in Austin, TX in the 90s.

Because if there's a place where Martin Luther King's dream is happening as of today, it's most of Western Europe - not the USA. I've had people of every color come to my house and no neighbour would dare to make a fuss about it : can you say the same ?
" can you say the same ?"


When will any European nation have a non-white president/PM? Secretary of State? Military head? Mayor of a major city? Head of national justice system? Head of national security?

And yes, I'm European too, and find America far more tolerant than Europe.
Forget about this coffee stuff. If you are in Vienna then get over to the Hotel Sacher and get an actual Sacher Torte. If you go to Vienna without eating a real Sacher Torte then you don't deserve to visit Europe.
@48 Oh please. "Don't deserve." Stop with all the snobbism, people.

And @47, I totally agree with @46.
Lighten up puddles. It was a joke.

Although the torte is worth a trip. It might even lighten your mood enough to grant you a glimmer of a sense of humor..
@46, Clearly you're the expert on race relations here. I mean you were in Austin the 90s, for Pete's sake!

Things an expert like you should probably know but evidently doesn't:
1) Speech is never a punishable offense in the US and we kind of like it that way.
2) Our civil services ask for race not so they can classify people, but so they can verify people are not being discriminated against based on their race when applying for publicly funded work or schooling.
3) I guess technically the Holocaust would fall more under the heading of genocide than apartheid, but, you know, that happened (In Europe). So did the Bosnian Genocide.

But other than that, and that 'being white means easier living than being anything else, that's for sure : police controls disproportionately non-whites', you're totally living MLK's dream over there.
Eh seems ok to me tho rather cheesy. I 'd like to know what the tag line says.

A little US Citizenship brush up:

There are many kinds of speech in the USA which are punishable offenses.

One famous example of a criminal speech is yelling "fire" in a theater (or "bomb" in an airport). Similar examples would be inciting a riot, egging on someone to commit a crime or straight up coercion.

There is also libel, slander and other types of defamation.

Freedom of speech won't keep you from losing your job if you say something that goes against your employer's code of conduct.
Was the unspecified third black person actually a white person in black face? Because that would not be at all surprising.
I wonder if the people voting for `that's not okay' appreciate the irony of judging another culture by the standards of their own.
@55: Oh no, you don't know what irony is! And you seem to be unaware that cultural ethical relativism is bullshit. How embarrassing for you.
What was the Question again?
the unspoken question -- which is at the root of most seemingly relevant dicussions -- is:

Why does the world let little boy, adolescent male denial disorder continue to thrive as the reality know by the masses?

Why does Human Being allow men to dictate their deluded refusal to admit they know full well the difference between right and wrong and have no trouble discerning love from hate

Yet how many times we Human Beings let the idiot gender male and it's preference for the convenience of lies as opposed to actually solving problems by not denying the truth

If we don't stop the ignorant gender, Our World is in danger of "inadvertently" being destroyed.

Every time some idiot male decides he will not exhibit minimal levels of respect, and instead stick to his idiot guns, it's another step closer to Our Species going extinct

Every time some jackass uses the piss poor excuse of "what is Truth?" or "there is no absolute ethical right or wrong" instead of the TRUTH of this world and every Human Beings basic rights, freedoms and liberties which cannot be separated from their associated responsibilities.

The question is are We going let the idiot male risk Our safety because they cannot handle the Truth?

I vote "FUCK NO" and suggest they go "Fuck Themselves"
@47 "When will any European nation have a non-white president/PM? Secretary of State? Military head? Mayor of a major city? Head of national justice system? Head of national security?"

Ms Christine Taubira is a black woman and she has been the head of the national justice system of France since may 2012.

She's the one who made gay marriage legal in France. She's hardly an unknown in Europe, with all the fuss that the French homophobes made about it. Are you really an European ??

Severiano de Heredia, a black cuban, was already president of the coucil of Paris in 1879 : yes, a black man elected by the mostly white Paris population in the 19th century. And he went up to become a Minister of the Republic.

Currently in France there are several black politicians who hold prominent places in various parties, who have taken part or who will take part in the government, or who administrate parts of France - and not only those parts of France in the Caribeans where most of the population is black, but also metropolitan rural France, where more than 90% of the population is white.
A little bit of what # 3 said. Also, I sometimes think that we judge other people by standards that apply to us. I don't know much (anything) about the history of race-relations in Vienna, but much of what makes anything like this off limits in the States is the centuries of slavery, segregation, and dehumanization of people of color--particularly people of african ancestry. So it is possible that some things that are off-limits here may be less problematic other places that don't have that history.

Godwin's law, you lose.

"so they can verify people are not being discriminated against based on their race when applying for publicly funded work or schooling"

Curiously, in France people register their kids at the school tending to the place they live and, guess what, the school has to take every kid in. Whatever his/her color, gender, religion, etc. Strange ways, I know.

But the result is that, inside and outside of every school in France little black boys and black girls are be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers. And nobody gives a damn.

And in France, awesome people like lolorhone don't have a much higher chance of ending up victims of random police or civilian gun violence just because they're young black males. Nobody kills you just because you're black and 17 and wear a hoodie in France. Nor in the rest of Europe (Russia excepted). And if such a crime would happen, because there are pieces of shit everywhere : it would end in jail, not in an acquittal !
@60 The level of racism is higher in Austria (and in Switzerland) than in France, I know that from a friend who went to study in Graz.
@62 Yeah... I had a friend from Switzerland... Until I realized how terribly racist he was. It was all "Arabs-this" and "Arabs-that". No idea if that's representative of the general picture at all.

@50 I have a sense of humor, thank you very much, and I don't see how that can be called a joke. Look at me, I've been to Austria, and visited some snooty cafe. And Sacher Torte is not so amazing anyway.

When a political party has a poster of white sheep standing on the country's flag and kicking a black sheep out of it, and it does not provoke an outcry and it's not banned, one can safely say that most people in that country are pretty racist...
@64 Maybe not most, but at least many.
@62/63 - France has the same problem with xenophobia and anti-arab racism. Most European countries now have a xenophobic political party with representation in their legislatures. America also has some problems with racism against (particularly hispanic) immigrants, but nothing that really rivals what is going on in Western Europe. Not that we don't have our own issues
but nothing that really rivals what is going on in Western Europe

What? We only have two parties in power. One, the GOP is rallying it's base to protest and scream at bus loads of terrified children fleeing countries ravaged by civil war and crime because the committed the crime of being brown.

The GOP is also rallying people to prevent Mosques from being built and rallied people to defend a guy who murdered a black teen ager in cold blood. These are major political campaigns for national politicians for gods sake.

This is a MAJOR party. In the most powerful and richest nation in the world. With a war chest of billions of dollars and membership in the tens of millions.

Most of the Fascists in western Europe are fringe parties with individual membership in each country numbering only in the thousands. The members generally have almost no real wealth or power at all.

You know in most western EU nations it is actually ILLEGAL to even say some racial slurs in public or print. You can go to jail for it.

How much time have you actually spent in Europe?
@sissoucat Oh dear, I did not know that. That explains a lot.

@66 I can only speak confidently for Germany and Russia since I have close experience with both. In Russia racism is pretty much ubiquitous. It's interesting that Russians mostly think that Europe is doomed precisely because of immigrants (non-white, of course), and that "real Europeans" are dying out (or become gay-recruited or whatever). Haven't noticed any of this in Germany apart from a few unfortunate extremely-white-children posters from the NPD. Maybe I've just been lucky, but everywhere I go there are these anti-nazi, anti-racism and anti-homophobia notices and stickers, in the street, on the subway, in cafes etc.
@67. Hungary. Jobbik party.
@67 - Easy...I am not saying that there are no issues in the US. And certainly there is an element in the republican party that it troubling and they sometimes engage in coded xenophobic and racist messaging--but my point was simply that doesn't compare to parties who are explicitly racist and xenophobic that are gaining popularity in Europe. And, for the record, the National Front took 25% of the vote in the French EU/Municipal elections this year. And support for those formerly fringe far-right anti-immigrant parties seems to be if anything growing.
@ 67/69 - Exactly, there is nothing here that is comperable to the Jobbik (20% of vote) or the Golden Dawn (7%) for example.
@63 "I have a sense of humor, thank you very much, and I don't see how that can be called a joke."

Hence your lack of sense of humor.

Oh look, I've been to Russia and Germany so listen to me pontificate about their culture and social issues, blah, blah, blah...

See how that works?

I was joking. You're just being an intentionally condescending prick.
Hm, judging my sense of humor based on one crappy joke that is not really a joke ... sorry, I'm already bored.
And I haven't "been" to Russia, I lived most of my life in Russia and now I live in Germany. That's what "close experience" means, get it? Like the previous poster who shared their opinion about the US because they seem to LIVE there.

And name calling, seriously? You are so fucking funny.
Dirtclustit, I agree; Fuck No idiot male. We could start with the idiot male leader of Israel. The idiot male leaders of Hamas. And the idiot male leaders of Australia.
Hungary is now "Western Europe?" You realize Hungary had it's very first free elections in 1990, right?

BTW. The National Front in France has LESS than 70,000 members. The center right UMP on the other had has around 300,000. Though everything in France is about coalitions, so raw numbers are misleading. I mean, hell. They still have Royalists. Over all though the average Frenchman is far less racist than the average American. For fuck sake that's where black American intellectuals used to go to be taken seriously.

So. Regardless. For some perspective there are 55 MILLION registered Republicans. The Tea Party Caucus elected over 48 senators after just forming.

Think about it. Our racists have the broad cover of our most powerful major party.

Europe's fringe right, while certainly often more visibly outrageous since they tend to not disguise their racism in dog whistles and sometimes are perfectly down with dressing as actual Nazis, they are still outliers and are considered red neck freaks.

Also let's remember that Western Europe was largely more racially and ethnically homogenous for a great deal longer than we have been. They have come a long way very fast.
I love the graphics. I want it as a poster.
What exactly is supposed to be the problem with the poster/ad? Is it the depiction of the black characters as hip and cool? Or is it that they aren't realistic drawings representing what black people all look like? Or is it the use of the word Afro, whether representing the origin or the hairstyle?
If you ask me, all are very weak issues and are in no way offensive. Not unless you're the kind who sets out of the house determined to be offended by something/anything.
I mean, come on, sissoucat does have a point about Zimmerman.
Problem is that there are a lot of young people here who in well-intentioned efforts to combat racism think that recognizing race in any manner is racist.

In same vein with the "Oh! It's terrible" shrieks about the "poor door" post on the subsidized housing in NYC.

Their pitch will improve as they mature.

I double agree with your agreement M.E. (em--ee), but not necessarily with Palestine, Judea, and Aussie leaders as being the first three that need their tragically male people phuct naughted, as the idiot males of those three particulars are the best examples of metaphorical symptoms of the male disease that plagues This planet's Federacy.

In fact I would bet the Farm, that once the disease is cured in all other parts of This planet, the very real disease of tragic males would be eradicated as it follows the same contagion model as is experienced with vaccination programs; as in 100% of a population being vaccinated is not required to virtually eradicate things like small pox, polio and papilloma virals of the human type (*Auto Papillomavirus)

Just as Dan is living proof that homosexuality does not make one immune to being tragically male, as evident by his exhibition of full blown male idiocy of being in the firm grip of denial of the truth in his dealing with his transgender words incident...

that disease of declaring adamantly any state of denial as being Realistic Truth is perfectly illustrated here, there, and everywhere in SLOG articles and comments.

Hell even the Women who only notice the "textbook classic" displays of the ignorant male's most damaging and dangerous form; those idiots who humorously believe they are knowledgeable, will have no problem identifying and confirming these neo-zombies whom are color-blind to their own skin pigment which can only be described as "*necrotic"

These textbook classic SLOG examples illustrate Slogger's inability to comprehend these issues of fulfilling the mandatory responsibilities of choosing to exercise certain freedoms of The Living Human Being.

These people do not understand the most basic ways to ensure you are in compliance with full spectrum "Do NO Harm"

Knuckleheads such as Dan, I doubt will ever understand that it doesn't matter, not one iota whether or not the offended party is honestly and innocently offended or they by choice cannot be not offended or in other words set out to be offended and therefore according to Dan, they are not deserving of even minimal levels of respect

So people like Dan will nine times out of ten, be in the wrong in every situation such as these; wherein there will never be universal agreement on where to draw the lines that distinguish "OK" from "Not OK"

Which isn't even a problem so long as you at least mind yourself to stay well clear of the "grey zone"

but Sloggers seem to love gray zones, which is why it would do them good to at least understand what you need to do to ensure your behavior will always be in compliance with fulfilling the responsibility to Freedom that you willing choose to exercise

Some people are able to get by on simple instructions, such as "Do No Harm" and other Golden Rules, however there is no avoiding the successive progression of parsing those fine lines that distinguish right from wrong, into finer and finer detail

which is why it sucks when you see people who do have good, honest hearts become casualties of unavoidable unveiling of Celestial Law, as too few people understand when and where ignorance trumps the virtues of honesty unless you are practiced at it (practiced at honesty as opposed to ignorance, which is essentially what that idiot author wrote, when he wrought the whole deal about not doing the good he wishes to do, and doing the evil he wishes not to)

* The Human Papillomavirus, often known by the laymen's acronym HPV is what is known simply as Auto-Papillomavirus or AP, to those who are knowledgeable of the very technical, current best medical practices

* You'd have to understand London's symbolic use of skin color in his lesser known novels about the South Pacific Ocean (the two or three book series of Jerry of the Islands) but most caucasian's these days are members of a much more accurate category of race by skin color, which is necrotic, or in laymen terms : skin that is dying or the portion or skin that is dead, on a living body

Q : What's further right, the French Front National or the Republican Party ?
A : The Republican Party.

Didn't know that, eh ?

Check the programs :

- immigration : FN's "France to French people" and "national preference" means that citizens should have more welfare rights and more work opportunities than legal immigrants, and that illegal immigrants should be deported stat. Currently in France legal immigrants have the same rights as citizens, bar voting. FN does not patroll the borders in military garb and armoured vehicles... but GOP does.

- open racial hatred : FN expells from its ranks anyone who makes public racist speeches. The woman who posted on facebook a picture of a monkey next to the picture of the black Minister of Justice : expelled from FN ! And in jail (because in France, calling for murder or violence is a limit to free speech, and so does promoting racism, which is akin to calling for violence on racist grounds). Er, when did any racist loudmouth ever get expelled from the GOP ?

- contraception/divorce/abortion : FN accepts all 3 of them ! And the GOP ?

- Shoah : FN accepts that it did happen, and that Nazis were bad guys. And expells its members who say otherwise.

- gays/women : FN tends to expell anybody publicly making homophobic discourses. FN claims than men and women ARE equal. But FN still hates gay marriage. And... the GOP ?

- death sentence : FN is for ! And the GOP ?

- minority representation : FN is not all white ! There are Black, Arab and Jewish members of the FN. Just like in the GOP !

- economy : FN idiots to do away from the Euro, which would ruin France's economy. The last GOP president HAS ruined US economy.

Don't get me wrong, FN is a fascist, populist party and a threat for democracy, and inside it's totally ripe with racist/antisemitic shitheads, but the leadership tries to keep their behaviour under wraps.

A much worse threat for democracy is your all-white lunatic fringe, and when did the GOP expell any of them from its ranks ? Never.

Your Democrats are like France's UPS (center) and UMP (right). Your GOP starts at the very right end of our right, and goes much farther right than France's FN (far right).
@puddles : it's that poster, which made a scandal all over the rest of Europe.

I've heard French Russians tell me casually say that the Orthodox faith is the lone standing Christian faith protecting Europe from Islam. It's frightening. I know for a fact that African students have been assaulted and killed by Russian skinheads in Moscow, in the 21st century.

As for French Royalists, yep, there are some. I'd say, two or three ? When you publicly say you're a Royalist, everybody's ears clenches shut, because what will follow is sure to be garbage. Don't you have some people who want the US to reunite with UK and be ruled by the Queen ? Same kind of guys.
@ "And name calling, seriously? You are so fucking funny. "

That part was not meant to be funny. Just an accurate description of your behaviour. I made a joke to Dan, and you got your panties in a bunch over it because YOU didn't find it funny so you got on my case.

If your so bored then stop fucking replying to me. I didn't start this with you, you started it with me. Sorry if your own crap is boring you.
@83 You sound completely insane. You posted on a public forum where you know not just Dan will read you. I replied to your public post as I saw fit, but without making a personal attack I must say, and you had to turn it personal and try to insult me. Just go fuck yourself, idiot.
@84, No, you called me a snob right off the bat. That may not be a vulgar insult, but it is still a personal insult. You are entitled to reply to any post you want, but when you choose to get on someone's case for a simple comment you invite a response back, which is what I have done.

Doesn't change the fact that YOU started in with me. And despite your protests you seem unable to walk away from it.

So go fuck yourself right back.
Excuse me, what I said was, "Stop with all the snobbism, people." Because your comment and a few above sounded, well, snobbish. But it's not an insult in any form whatsoever, whereas your reply about a "glimmer of a sense of humor" was totally over the top AND personal.
That was over the top? Really? That's what you call over the top?

Calling what I said snobbism is pretty much the same thing as calling me a snob, and indicated you took the comment way too seriously. So seriously you had to comment.

Your subsequent mocking post clearly showed you thought I was a snob and was clearly meant to be condescending, which is it's own form of insult.

I was just trying to point Dan in the direction of something that, from having listened to him for a long time, I thought HE would enjoy, and did so in what was meant to be a joking way.

And you got all up my ass about it.

So yeah, I'm annoyed with you, but mostly now I am just curious to see how long you are going to bite. You said you were bored with me already. Yet you keep chomping like a dog with a pull toy. I'll admit, I find it rather fascinating and not boring at all.
@87 Sweetie, my first reply was completely impersonal, YOU started with the condescension. Which just goes to show that you're a big old snob.
@80: I feel like the theoretical apparatus that will make you coherent to me is always just out of reach. Some kind of lens that resolves the smears and spatters into points and lines. I suspect that we would agree about many things, but I can't always tell. I am pretty confident, though, that I know what you would identify as my obstacle to understanding.
Calling people snobbish isn't impersonal, twinkletoes, which just goes to show you are rather dense. Over-reacting to being told you lack a sense of humor is Oh, so dramatic however. Good on you, you drama queen you.
I sure do AB, your desire to understand is the only obstacle

When Dan or other sloggers publish content that is more or less bullshit, otherwise known as "bait"

they can tell me until they are blue in the face that their underlying, unspoken point serves a purpose that is ultimately good, but I will always call bullshit because it is bullshit, as baiting only helps people who know they are in the process of taking an exam

publishing this shit for the general public, as bait, only detracts from a person's ability to better understand the reality of this world and their self which resides in it

Dan knows without any doubt he made a mistake in supposed dealings with using his transgender words.

It doesn't matter if that or this situation is only hypothetical and never really occurred, when the situation is such that due to differing belief systems there is no agreement on specific definitions of OK and Not OK, being respectful of the other's belief system is the only right way to behave

Idiots that cry foul about having beliefs imposed on them yet will turn around and claim it's OK to impose their beliefs on others are not some moral nor ethical crusaders, they are simply disrespectful idiots

and it doesn't ultimately matter if the disrespectful idiot is a slogger or a right wing bigot, they are all the same to me; an idiot is an idiot is an idiot

if if a person is going to continue being an idiot, they should not be a part of the process in figuring out the best way to have their life coincide with others whose life does not align

@61, "Godwin's Law" does not mean everyone on the internet has to pretend the Holocaust never happened. It means "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1" [2][3]—​ that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism." Not drawing any comparisons here, I'm only pointing out that one of the worst genocides of the 20th century occurred in Europe.


I had no idea that everyone who applies to a university in France is accepted. In the US we restrict admissions based primarily on academic performance, though other factors come into play since universities often have an excess of qualified applicants, which is why we keep track of race statistics -- to make sure race *isn't* a factor.

We also have "black friends" here, but we consider acknowledging it to be incredibly patronizing rather than evidence we're not racist.

Good point about Zimmerman though.
Hmmm. Would I assume that an ad in downtown Ouagadougou for a company called Euro Coffee, which featured coffee and pale Europeans in their artwork, was racist?

I can't, from that tiny bit of information. There are so many non-racist reasons for a European coffee company to portray Europeans and coffee.
I don't know if you've noticed EC, but before racism, bigotry, hate crimes, etc... is born into a world, it's almost as if it requires metaphorical parents which are gross injustices and a trampling of a person or People's most basic rights.

It's almost as if there needs to be large scale abuse first by a dominant person or community, and it's that person or community's denying of the truth and refusal to accept responsibility for the wrongs they committed, that is essentially racism and bigotry

otherwise it's just being an asshole, or someone just being mean

so you cannot usefully make comparisons like the one you made, as it's not against the law to be an asshole, and there is never a second that goes by without some white person being an asshole, and the world for the most part has to put up with it, for now, but European, or people known as "whites", you pretty much have to be either female or homosexual in order to experience bigotry.

One person being an asshole to you is not bigotry, to understand just how subtle and damaging the experience can be is something very few white male heterosexuals will ever be able to understand

There has never been nor is there now any reason to protect the white male heterosexual

and if there was a need we would be in trouble, because it's all but impossible to write laws that are enforceable against people being assholes, luckily we are living during times when it is surely becoming impossible to conceal assholic intentions, and while it may be within a person's rights to deny the truth, most people will not be foolish enough to accept lies as their reality
@dirtclustit - you seem to be making wrong assumptions about what category of human I am - not surprising, the post you're responding to is very short.

Among other things, I'm gay, and if a company called Gay Coffee had ordinary gay people in their ad artwork, I would not think anything was amiss.

The African people in the Afro Coffee ad are not drawn as stereotypical racist images, they are normal people you could see in any big city it the world. Including Ouagadougou or Paris or Garissa or Rome.

What is it about their images that you find racist?
@dirtclustit - a friend just pointed out that the Africans in the Afro Coffee ad have not straightened and flattened their hair, and maybe that is contributing to some people thinking this is a racist image.

Is that what looks racist to you? That these Africans have not made their hair look European?
I really should have kept my comment to you, relevant to what you said, sorry about all the gibberish, it would have been more coherent to simply say the scenario of the same add campaign with Euro Iced Coffee is not a very useful comparison. That the culture usually first needs a history of being abused or oppressed by man

I don't see anything racist about the add campaign, in fact, I don't even believe it is real. It looks more to me like a mind fuck attempt Slog is using to prove a point about jumping to conclusions.

For most people crying foul, it would likely be due to the word "Afro" and many who may cry foul would not if it were instead called "African"

Some people probably didn't realize that "Afro" in several other languages is equivalent to "African" in American English

It appears to me this is just a bullshit post so Dan can have an easier time believing he made no mistakes in the transgender word incident

People should be given the benefit of the doubt when it isn't an intentional belittlement. But I think it's likely the whole coffee ad campaign is bullshit, and in that case, the intent was indeed to draw a reaction or cry of foul when Slog only took their bullshit right up to the line, yet did not step over the line into NOT OK

When the intention is to draw a reaction, it's just stirring the pot. It's not actually trying to bring an understanding between different belief systems, it's more along the lines of sabotage

The fictitious coffee company even made subtle slights in their supposed Black African community support, as they intentionally used "Afro" as opposed to "African" yet for words like "cafe" they don't mean "coffee" or "brown" they mean a coffee and small fare eatery

It's the bullshit coffee brand and it's possible borderline ad campaign that I object to, it's the manipulative, political stunt that detracts from Our World's ability to find common ground and the minor levels of respect that are needed for people with conflicting belief systems to coexist peacefully

I pissed at Slog's typical fucked up attitude towards equality, as I see it, Slog journalists many times hinder the moment they humorously believe they are helping

You did nothing wrong ECarpenter, I shouldn't have been critical of you when you were simply looking at it from different angles. It's the Slog staff that piss me off, not you
annnd yep, this article published by DS, (Dan Savage) reads more like Dip Shit, as it was without a doubt meant to straddle that line of OK and Not OK.

It journalism in general, that these days, is Not OK.

It's Not OK to fly the banner of an advocate of equality, then pull shit like this in order to save face when he failed to show the minimal respect towards ---- yes the oversensitive person ---- from the transgender word dust up.

It helps the equality movement to simply admit you fucked up, it detracts the movement to publish bait in order to falsely prove your bullshit point

That is fucked up journalism

It's not just you, Dear Dan, it's not just the tying in Kelly O's picture of the week, to that humorous post about drunkin flirting, ending with the female getting pissed off and causing a scene.

It's the arrogant mind fucking attitude of Journalism on the whole.

Programming isn't bad, per se, at least not when the reporting is of the Truth.

This post is not, just like it's not the Truth when assholes publish an image of young women at a Chase Bank Christmas party mocking the working class families that Chase illegally foreclosed home loans on, then just because they can get away with it --- because they believe the public is that dumb --- to use the same young women pictured getting arrested protesting none other than Chase Bank.

There are one possibly two journalists whom I respect, and I respect them because they report the Truth



@ #14: How can you be sure that anyone who's posted here *isn't* black, or from sub-Saharan Africa? This is the Internet. You have no idea of what face lies behind someone's username.

As for my (possibly redundant) two cents: I'd say this is a pretty racist ad. The African people in the ad are largely reduced to their blackness, and the ad uses said quality to evoke a sense of the exotic. In doing so, the poster objectifies Africans in much the same way many car commercials objectify women, and that's not okay.

It also strikes me as relatively benign, in a sense. The man and woman come across as sophisticated and possessed of a sense of style. I'm unsure that absolves the ad of any responsibility for the techniques it employs. I might be wrong on these counts, but that's how I see it at the moment.

@ #5: politickling, you said that, as a black woman, you didn't have any problem with the ad. May I ask your reasoning? Pardon me if you've already explained and I missed the reply... there's a long flame war unraveling above this comment, and I haven't had the patience to comb through it all.
Go Fuck Yourself
The add isn't inherently racist, it's subtly racist, it's the same deal with the whole bullshit post by Tennessee Coats, it's only a problem because it's published by a journalist who doesn't give a fuck and justifies their bullshit manipulations because they are ignorant of the fact that every lie a person accepts as reality hinders their ability to recognize all other Truth

Very few lies other than age appropriate simplifications are ever justified, never has any of slog's bullshit stories ever been justified

it doesn't help, it causes more confusion
The coffee is from a retailer, African Image, based in Cape Town South Africa.
It it's not considered racist in its home market. Then of course, Cape Town is the last bastion of irony.
Dirtclustit; on a roll here , I see..
" there's a long flame war unravelling above", @99/ nice ly put.
@Dirtclustit - I just don't see what makes the ad "subtly racist". If the racism is too subtle to point to or explain clearly, how can anyone be sure it's there?

For those who think this is racist - if you think of the guy in the ad as a school teacher, and the woman in the ad as a neurosurgeon on holiday, does it feel different to you? If so, perhaps it didn't initially feel right because of your own assumptions about the people depicted, not because of what it actually shows.

Or maybe he's a chef, and she's the author of several mystery books. Or he's a plant pathologist, and she's a chef on holiday. She certainly looks like she's on holiday in any case, very cheerful. I wonder if they know each other?
" transgender word incident", Dirtclustit: Equality is a hard one : us women, gays , lesbians , transgendered, African Americans etc, etc- we all in our separate groups strive for equality, need to keep being patient and forgive . Holding onto your anger, just hurts you. Dan is a good guy.
if by good guy you mean mind fucking, privacy trampling, journalist/member of the idiot swarm, then I might agree with you trantrum

otherwise those whose idea of freedom, liberty and privacy function like one way streets, are part of the problem.
I would like post the link to a short video taken out of Mo Asumang 's documentary " Die Arier".
I think it is the best movie in 2014.