SL Letter of the Day: Two Graves, One Book

Comments

1
Whoa Dan, that was one of your best.
3
Compiling that book of sin and handing to the ex's wife is a delicious fantasy. But that is what it should remain... a fantasy. To do that for real is a dick move.

To quote Will Wheaton, "Don't be a dick." Words to live by.
4
You blame this guy for ruining your marriage? That's rich.

Go ahead and drop off your silly book. The wife isn't going to leave her husband over it. She'll see it for what it is - a creepy, crazy act of desperation from a jilted lover.
5
I'm wondering how much of the info about the crappy wife is accurate. Since he had a DADT agreement with the wife, I'm assuming you haven't actually talked to her. Which means all your info is coming from a lying liar who lies about everything and anything to suit his interests.

Just a thought.
6
It is fascinating that you think you know this man better than his wife of 15 years. Despite never having lived with him, never sharing finances and money matters with him, and never having parented alongside him.

Dan's advice is far more elegant and measured than needed.
7
P.S. The husband probably contracted HPV from his wife, either recently now that they are fucking again, or long ago. In some cases, the warts don't show up until years after the date of exposure.
8
um, the letter writer had all this crap coming to her, except the genital warts. she's not a hero or martyr or deserving of much sympathy. play with fire, you get burned. hope the sex was worth it.



very very little of the letter addresses her own actions - everything is what was done to her, what he did, what his wife did to her.



pick up the pieces, move on, and be grateful you're not married to this dude. be a swinger, dont get married again, dont bang married men. pretty simple.
9
You've recognized your own complicity in all of this shitty shittiness, which is to your credit, and you probably resolved to be a less shitty person going forward.

You're being awfully generous here, Dan. She's definitely a shitty person of shittiness in this situation.
10
Gee, it seems a shame to go to so much work on a book and not have anybody see it. Maybe she should send it ... to him. Along with a note that says, 'If I were as much of an asshole as you are, I'd have sent this to your wife.'
11
My head's still reeling at:
"I was in an open marriage...[I agreed] to be monogamous with [my married lover]."

12
Often, when we are that level of pissed off at another, it's because we haven't taken very good care of ourselves. For example, LW should have left this train wreck of a situation a loooog time ago. Those who are so "nice" they go along with all kind of shitty, often feel intensely angry when it all come falling down. "Niceness" doesn't guarantee you a thing. "Niceness" isn't the point. It's a hard lesson to learn to take care of yourself, to set your values and stick with them. To be willing to walk away from shitty people before they drag you down into the muck with them. LW, sorry it's been so hard, but Dan's right. Don't throw gas on the fire. Just leave these people be. Focus on figuring out your own stuff. Be honest with yourself, and sort out what appealed to you about all of this, and why.
13
Well done Dan. I was worried at the end, but then saw the mini script. Covered everything beautifully.
16
Just because the cad and his wife have access to all those communications implicating her, I think your reader should KEEP the book, in a safe and secure place - not at her home.

Then she can let him know that she has it if - and only if - he ever turns mean. She should never use it, but it's existence would be a good deterrent if this guy gets nasty when she ends the relationship. It would keep his own revenge impulses in check.

Mutually assured destruction kept us all alive during the '50s and '60s, it's not bad to have that backup.

17
An Almost-Home-Wrecking Whore? "Almost"? Sorry, Sweets, but there is no "Almost". The wife you are dripping with jealousy over is not to blame for any of this. Just you and the cheating slimebag who never planned on leaving his (probably oblivious) wife. You are simply one AHWW amongst many he has been banging behind his wife's back. He does not love you, he never loved you, he will never love you. He simply told you what you wanted to hear to get a leg across.
18
Give him the book. Tell him you're done with him, this is a manifestation of all the fuck ups they both went through.

Then do everything you can to forget him.
19
Sometimes, when something has really pissed me off, like when someone is WRONG on the INTERNET, I write up a long and detailed reply explaining precisely how utterly wrong they are, how only an dangerously fascist idiot would think that way, and obviously this over here is the correct solution, all filled with witty comments to demonstrate my superior intelligence and moral character, along with 27 8 x 10 colored glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was.

And then I delete it. That way I got the cathartic experience of doing the dump, but I avoid the inevitable fallout that comes from being a self-righteous, sanctimonious asshole.

Do that. You have the book already made, which I hope gave you some sense of angry ownership of your situation. Now just hold onto it. Poke through it every now and then when you need some self-righteous rage to get through the moment. And when you've given yourself closure; when you've moved on, destroy that thing. Pour yourself a tall glass of wine, head into the backyard or a park or the beach or wherever with a couple of friends who were with you through the whole thing, and just immolate it.

Revenge fantasies rarely if ever don't come with some regrettable blowback. Part of healing often comes from knowing that you were the better person in a situation. Do your future, more healthy self a favor and put an end to the escalations as early as possible.
20
That's a pretty good level of fucked up ness.

I got nothin'.
21
@11: I found it rather telling that there was no mention of her pre-existing husband (except for the fact she was married) at all in the letter. Guy dodged a bullet.
22
Slate has an interesting component to their moderation system in the "ghost ban". Those who are ghost banned can post all they like, but no one but them can see it. Perhaps if the Stranger is going to force the trolls up out of the grays they can implement something similar, so as to truly give them the echo chamber they seem to so deeply crave.
23
Spot-on advice from Dan. And seandr @4 is right - she's not going to leave him. She'll just dismiss the LW as a bunny boiler.

Here's my dumbass story if anyone's interested: I was once the other woman. He promised to leave his wife, never did, blah blah. After a while my conscience wouldn't tolerate the situation anymore and I felt like an asshole, plus I'd finally realized what an asshole he was. I called up his wife while I knew he was out of the house, told her everything, said I was extremely sorry, and promised it was over. She was incredibly civil about it and and thanked me for calling (and then, presumably, tore him a new one when he got home). Their relationship survived this incident. I kept my word for several months, until one day he showed up at my house in the middle of the night, drunk, looking like a lost puppy. I let him in. Things resumed from there.

The whole affiar was the worst and dumbest thing I've ever done, and the most dumb part was blowing the whistle on him, which ultimately did more harm than good. Even if I hadn't gone back to him, I actually doubt I would have been doing his wife any real favours. I felt true remorse, but I'm pretty sure revenge was part of my motive.

So the moral is, don't be a whistle blower. Just walk away and try to preserve what's left of your dignity.
24
@11 I thought the same thing. If you're in an open marriage and seeing someone else, that someone else is trying to convince you to leave your marriage for them, that should be an instant deal breaker. What the fuck was this person thinking?

I'm also with other commenters about the wife. All the info we have on the wife is from the mouth of asshole husband and it sounds like it's been mostly crap. And I don't see how handing this book over would do much damage to him. The wife would either a. stay in the marriage for reasons already outlined and she'd take her anger out on him, but sounds like their relationships is shit anyways so that wouldn't be that much worse than it already is or b. get divorced which honestly he probably would be okay with. Handing over the book mostly hurts the wife if she doesn't know, or does nothing, if she knows already.
25
@19: "along with 27 8 x 10 colored glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was." Ah, mlb, what a perfect way to work in the mostly timely reference, even if a week late.
27
@5 Exactly. The second the LW reached the "now he's decided to stay with his wife" stuff, the "uh, he never told his wife in the first place" warning bells start to go off.



Yep, no man has ever told a woman he was really, truly 100% getting a divorce and then, after that woman made it clear that she was actually, really serious, he's suddenly all "oops, you know what, funny thing, but after oh-so-much consideration the wife and I have decided to stay together" thing.



Unless you have any real proof that A) he actually ever told his wife B) they actually had a DADT relationship and C) she wanted a divorce, went to an attorney, etc., etc., then my money's with @5 on: you've been played, and liars tend to lie.



It doesn't make things any easier, but before you turn the hateworks on his wife, remember, unless you're 100% sure she knew, there's a really good chance you'd be blindsiding someone who's more of a victim than you in this situation-- and I'm guessing that's not the person you want to be.
28
Is it wrong of me to hope that this is in a guns-for-all state?
29
@25 Yeah, I thought that too. Let's see if the young'uns can figure out the reference!
30
Ah, this is so cliche. A lying man plays two women and makes at least one of them think the problem is the other woman and not him. Dear Letter Writer, you got played. It sucks. I'm sorry. But you know literally nothing about his wife nor what she did or said, so being angry at her is just giving the horrible guy you were with what he wanted.

I'm also in the general camp of, "what the?!?" over you staying with someone who tried to (and succeeded at) getting you to leave your husband. You made no mention of it being a bad marriage and you implied that you regretted it. Why would you do that? Was this guy messing with your head so badly that you weren't thinking clearly? If so, then assume he does the same thing to his wife and stop being mad at her. If not... then why do you think his wife is any worse than you are? So, show tolerance like you would want shown to you.
31
Dear letter writer,



Two years from now, you are going to be SOOOOO glad you didn't send that book. Knowing that you could have but didn't is one of the things you will treasure and begin to rebuild your dignity and happiness from. I promise.
32
I really don't see how the wife carries that much fault in this situation. Here's what I read:
1. "He had a DADT arrangement with his wife of 15 years."
Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. My money's on that he didn't.
2. "He claimed that his wife hadn’t had sex with him in six years."
Once again, we've only got his word on this, and we know that he lies. But let's say that his wife hadn't had sex with him in more than half a decade. She might not be withholding out of spite. She might just be exhausted, since they had a young kid, and I'll bet he's not the type of guy to pitch in with the chidcare and housework. And, if she suspects he's sleeping around, she might be worried - with good cause - about an STD.
3. "He's told me she's verbally abusive."
For the third time, we have to take his less-than-stellar word on this. And, there's a huge difference between a woman who puts you down for no good reason and a wife who's understandably a little peeved that she found your Ashley Madison profile or discovered that she has HPV.
4. "Then she met with a divorce attorney, realized she wasn’t going to come out flush, then she decided they should meet with a therapist to "work on things."
Well, yeah. If she's suddenly facing life as a single mom, she might be worried about finances enough to try to make a shitty marriage workable. That doesn't make her a gold-digger.
5. "For the record, this is their second go-round in couples counseling. The first time they went together and the therapist told them to get divorced—that she couldn’t help."
You weren't actually present in their therapy sessions and, from what you've told us, it sounds like the problems in their marriage weren't all her fault.

I'm not saying that your ex isn't a liar and a horrible person. And I'm not saying that the wife is completely blameless. (If I was her, I'd have left long ago). I'm just suggesting that she might be more innocent than her husband makes her out to be. After all, this asshole is an expert liar. If he's told her about you (and she probably at least suspects), I'll bet you'd hate to hear what he's saying.
33
Awesome poignant-yet-subtly-snarky advice Dan - You haven't lost your touch!
34
Just for clarity, the "...dig two graves..." line was featured in the 1981 James Bond film, For Your Eyes Only.
35
"Then she met with a divorce attorney, realized she wasn’t going to come out flush, then she decided they should meet with a therapist to "work on things."

We only have his word on that, and he's a lying sack of crap, and it's something that makes him look less like the guilty party. Odds of being true: Low.

...so it is semi-tempting except for the fact that this narcissistic asshole destroyed my marriage...

No, he didn't. He's not the narcissistic asshole who ruined your marriage. You are.
36
OK, Im not one of the "young 'uns" and I'm embarrassed to say here, in front of all of SLOG, that the 27 photos reference went by me. Can someone please explain?

Dan's solution is elegant, but I love at least the idea of giving the rufus the book, along with a note explaining the original (stupid) plan.
37
"You've recognized your own complicity in all of this shitty shittiness, which is to your credit, and you probably resolved to be a less shitty person going forward."

I'd agree with Dan's advice if this part was even slightly true. Look at what she writes, and how she writes it:
I know it is not the nice thing to do but I also don’t think it is completely unethical. She should know who she's staying with. And it would make me feel really good—it would provide a certain kind of closure. And I kind of feel like after the havoc these two have caused in my life (and really it was both of them) that I deserve to feel a bit better than I do right now. And they deserve to feel a lot worse.

Dan, which part of the letter makes you think she's acknowledging her part in this? Did that get edited out? All I see is a shitty person acting shitty and blaming it entirely on the other shitty person she met, and his probably-blameless wife. Meanwhile, she's trying to psych herself up to do something really shitty. Look what else she writes;

Now I’m a little bitter. And I’m more than a little complicit. I know that. But I really want to hurt him. Like a lot. And I want to hurt his wife too—obviously not in a physical sense—because she’s not innocent in all this.

His wife is innocent in all that, and she doesn't seem to actually feel at all complicit in the things she did herself.
38
@36









Arlington Guthrie. Lyric from Alice's Restaurant. Worth a listen.
39
You blame this guy for ruining your marriage? That's rich.

+1M

Also: I get the Alice's Restaurant reference, but I fail to see the timeliness/relevance to either this or the Grand Jury results out of Staten Island and Ferguson.
40
@ 19 - Brilliant way to work in a reference from a story about garbage. Congrats!
41
@38, It's Arlo not Arlington. But Alice's Restaurant is more than worth a listen. :)
42
Let the time you wasted on the Sillybook (name borrowed from upthread, then formalized because it was so perfect) be the last you waste on this relationship. Put the book in the grave instead. Burn it, if it helps, as a gesture to give you closure, in a way that does not perpetuate and magnify the hurt.
43
Also, you wreaked the havoc in your own life. Until you own that, you're going to feel like the victim of other people's choices.
44
@39. The tale begins on Thanksgiving. He has to deal with the Turkey day trash.

And no one should expect ethical behavior from people on Ashley Madison. It strikes me as being all about unethical behavior. I met plenty of DADT married guys on OKC.
46
@44 - Oh, right, Thanksgiving...doh. Thanks. I'm focused on the other news items a little. I was thinking of the police angle.

I agree with you this is all about the unethical behavior, pretty much all around. Question: how do you verify that a DADT person is telling the truth, regardless of which site you find them on.
47
@46 you can't verify that a DADT person is telling the truth. But then, you also can't verify that an openly polyamorous partner or even your spouse of twenty years is telling you the truth. There are no guarantees.

On the other hand, you can listen to how your prospective partner talks about their other partner, and see if they seem to speak respectfully or disparagingly. If they speak disparagingly of their other partner, then you can assume that's how they'll speak of you to their next partner.

48
I used to try asking how that conversation had gone, the one where they supposedly asked to open the marriage and were told that DADT was okay. But it was too depressing to listen to the lies, so I stopped asking and just came to my own conclusions.
49
@EricaP: Out of curiosity, in your estimation, how often do people probably lie about that? Like most of the time, or rarely, or... I don't know.

I think I've heard some people say it's almost everyone, and some people say it's only a few. I don't know if the latter are unusually lucky, unusually credulous, or possessed of unusually good filtering processes (or all three). I wonder.
50
While on OKC for a time (thankfully now off), there was a moment where I was in communication with 5 married guys. Each had their own story. Some I believed, others were just cads. One said that he had never been faithful, and his wife was willfully ignorant. One married his best friend knowing the sex was bad and infrequent, but they had a nice life and he still enjoyed her company. She too was DADT. Another was in a sexless marriage due to his wife passive aggressively shutting him down, him I believed and would have slept with if not for a lack of opportunity. And so on. Didn't have sex with any of them, but briefly considered a breezy memoir about the craziness.

But Ashley Madison is designed for affairs, which by excepted definition are secretive and illicit. So it makes me wonder why someone in an open marriage needs to look there. OKC is full of poly folk, most of whom are honest about it.

And for the record, I'm of the opinion that a marriage gets wrecked from within. A person would have to have amazing powers to break up a stable, loving marriage. So she chose to leave her marriage and be monogamous despite a 15 year open marriage. There's a disconnect here. I just can't quite figure it out.
51
Ya know, this repugnant screed reminds me why I have yet to knowingly fuck a married guy: Anyone tells me they are married but in an open relationship, I say I need to hear that from their partner. Pretty simple. Funny thing is no one, NO ONE, has ever come through with that. So, I didn't fuck 'em. I got a busy life already. Don't need drama made for no reason.
52
@50: A person would have to have amazing powers to break up a stable, loving marriage.

Exactly! I'm having a hard time imagining a situation in which this actually is her CPOS partner's fault.

He asked me to be monogamous with him and to get divorced (in that order). I did.

This sounds like she cut her husband off, then divorced him, which is even more of an accomplishment for the man's amazing powers.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't, though... I mean, it's a lot easier to get someone to give you 10% of their money than it is to make someone leave a stable marriage, so if he could do the latter, he'd already have all the money. It seems unlikely that the owner of these amazing powers would, instead of accumulating all the money in the world just by asking for it, just try to accumulate one really terrible person and fail at it.
53
LW: The wife hasn't wronged you in any way. He was her husband. She has a right to try to hang on to him. That he chose her must hurt, but that doesn't mean she wronged you. She's the wife. You're the mistress. He's the lying prick who convinced you that this wasn't the case.
54
Ah yes, LW you have forgotten about the kids. The youngest , is still under 10. With their parents fighting over Christmas, IF you drop off this little present, their Xmas time won't be much fun.
Though, of course, I can empathize with your hurt.
Revenge is such a strong response , when we've been hurt, lied to , manipulated. Yet it brings no self transformation and strengthening . And it leaves other, uninvolved people
Ie; the children, in the line of Fire. You want that? I'm guessing not. Though getting the book together was very focused.
55
What's with this myth of closure anyway? Has anyone ever really had one final act that put anything to bed for them forever? I mean, I've moved on from a lot of stuff in my life, but it's never really 100% gone and forgotten.
56
And most relationships that begin on Ashley Madison end so well...
57
Cool answer, Dan. Yes, a very symbolic burning. Their misdeeds , LW, and your misdeeds- all purified in that fire..
Leave them to their lives , grieve as you must, it will pass.
Then go forth, and find some good man to love.
58
FWIW: Back in my days as a "piece on the side", I would suggest that she bring the husband/boyfriend to our first meeting. If she balked, I walked. The last thing I wanted was some jealous lover complicating my life: avoiding complications was the whole reason I was a piece on the side! And I found that honestly poly gals were happy to bring their boyfriends/husbands, since that offered an easy escape should I be crazy or simply boring.
59
It bears emphasizing that the things we think will give us "closure" rarely do. Sometimes they only serve to continue to pick at the scab and let things fester. In my experience, almost always, time and distance are the only things that lead to anything vaguely resembling "closure."
60
Eudaemonic @49, in my current way of thinking, it doesn't really matter how often people lie. I just focus on owning my own shit, and I let other people own their shit.

Apologies up front to Mr. Venn for the heterocentrism of the following:

If Jill lives in LA and is interested in Jack who lives in Boston but comes out to LA for business, then I think Jill doesn't have to worry overly whether Jack is lying about DADT. Jill might want to evaluate whether Jack ever answers the phone when he’s in Boston, and if the answer is no, then maybe the relationship doesn't suit her needs. Then it's about her partner's actions (which she can evaluate herself), rather than about the wife's opinion of things (which she can't really know)

Conversely, if Mary lives in Portland and is interested in Matt who also lives in Portland, then she'll probably want to evaluate whether they can go out to dinner together, and if so, whether they can hold hands and kiss in public. If he refuses, because word might get back to his DADT relationship, then Mary can decide that she only wants to date someone willing to engage in light PDA, and move on from Matt regardless of whether he's lying about the DADT.

On the other hand, if Mary just sees Matt as a fun lay, and doesn't mind that they only ever get together at her place for sexy nooners, that she doesn't get to meet his friends, and that she's not allowed to call him –- because, hey, the sex is great -- then I think it's not her job to figure out whether he's lying about DADT. She can accept the casual sex or not, as she likes. (I do think that Mary shouldn't have casual sex with Matt if he admits to cheating on his wife.)

I would say that if Mary knows Matt is married, she should assume he is still having sex with his wife, regardless of what Matt says. So if she gets an STI, she should tell Matt to get tested and have a conversation with his wife. If she is fairly sure Matt won't tell his wife, and it's a serious STI where knowing might make a big difference, then I think Mary should tell Matt that she will be calling Matt's wife to let her know.

As for asking people to bring their spouse along to prove consent... You'd better also ask them to bring the wedding album along. I've heard stories of people showing up with another girlfriend posing as the wife.
61
@EricaP: On the other hand, you can listen to how your prospective partner talks about their other partner...

Curious to hear what you'd think if a prospective partner said of his wife "we work great in some ways, but in other ways we're incompatible."
62
Dear women:



When the guy you're fucking is cheating on someone else, but he "wants to be monogamous with you", that's a big, fat lie because it's supposed to be what you're supposed to want to hear. Women are supposed to want monogamy, even when they're actively cheating on their spouses, and they think that's hot because it's dangerous.



Honestly, what's the harm in saying "Nah, I'm good" in this situation? I can certainly see the harm in saying "Oh yeah, baby! I want to destroy our mutual marriages to 'be monogamous' with someone who's a proven cheater!"
63
seandr @61, I'm interested in whether he seems to like his wife, and whether he seems to think his wife likes him. Their incompatibilities are of no interest to me. If she refuses to, say, peg him, that doesn't mean he's owed a pegging from me. I'll peg him if I want to peg him; has nothing to do with what he's getting at home.
64
Quoth @60:
As for asking people to bring their spouse along to prove consent... You'd better also ask them to bring the wedding album along. I've heard stories of people showing up with another girlfriend posing as the wife.
Well, shit. That never even occurred to me. Never had to deal with a jealous lover, though. I suppose if she's crafty enough to bring a fake husband/boyfriend along, she's crafty enough to keep her actual husband/boyfriend in the dark. :/
65
You missed the most important part, which is: DO NOT FUCK THIS GUY EVER AGAIN. If you need motivation to not fuck this guy ever again, THAT is what the book is for.
66
"And maybe you should do some introspection," said Dan, not, because female.
67
Stories like this are another reason that the whole negotiated open marriage thing seems like blithely walking into a minefield. A couple who trusts and loves each other does not know that their partners second or third partner is not going to be a manipulative asshole who will, once their claws are in, pull the rug out form under the nice open marriage that started the whole thing. Sure, it can work if the primacy of the primary partner is respected by everyone involved, but what are the odds that that will happen? How many people are super happy to play second fiddle forever? And when it doesn't what are the odds that someone would choose the boring person they have been with for 15 years over the brand new shiny exciting puppy love?
69
Can I just add that I think Ashley Madison is perhaps one of the most evil things on the Internet? I've never met a person on an open relationship that would use Ashley Madison as a source.



Sort of surprised that Dan didn't call that out.
70
HPV can be latent for years, then it shows up when there is a lot of stress. Your immune system is down from the stress, and it reveals itself.
71
@67 Nah. If your relationship is good, a new partner isn't going to break it. I've seen plenty of poly/open relationships. I've never seen a healthy, happy one end due to somebody leaving for the new partner. Every time there was a break-up, there were problems inherent in the relationship other than the openness. When you have a good relationship, somebody pressuring you to leave it feels bad, and makes you feel less close to that person.

I'm sure a good relationship with an immature and inexperienced person has broken up here or there due to someone new pressuring them, but I don't think it's any more likely to happen if the relationship allows poly/openness. After all, people meet new people, and if they're susceptible to that sort of pressure, you don't need t be fucking someone to be tempted.
72
Well spotted, Ms Erica. I have occasionally thought along the lines of a letter, especially in cases when a kink is being outsourced, but more as a nice gesture than as supposed proof, as of course a letter could be forged, just as a person brought along could be an impostor.
73
Dan's advice is spot on.



BUT. It's a little more fun to think about what would happen if she did send the book to his wife. Personally, I think it could SAVE their marriage! Shitty people love having an enemy, and this would give them a common person to hate and blame all their issues on, leaving room to start anew. Granted, they do sound ill-suited for each other and it probably won't work in the long run but maybe enough to get those kids raised and out of the house before it all implodes.
74
Assuming everything went down exactly as stated here, the only thing the wife is guilty of is trying to give her marriage another chance. The LW and the husband, however, have been on an extended assholic spree that the former now wants to punctuate with a monumental homemade tome of yet more epic assholery. The husband may have lied, but the LW fucked up her own marriage, her rage is misdirected (the wife did nothing to her), and her book is beyond petty. First step to not being an asshole is to admit you're an asshole, not to double down on your shitty behavior. Just walk away.
75
@72, It's true there are kinksters out there who want to be their partner's one-and-only baby or Dom or puppy or whatever. So they might appreciate reassurance that the partner isn't also engaging in this kink at home, and your proposed letter (while not solid proof) might still be, as you say, a nice gesture. Personally, I'm not interested in being the one-and-only anything to anyone I meet, so your proposed letter wouldn't interest me.
76
@67 Only a fool would choose new shiny love (with monogamy requirements) over a reliable life partner with whom you have established drama-free non-monogamy. Five years from now, how exciting is that new shiny love going to be? But of course the world is full of such fools.
77
In reading these letters where LWs say they've been reading Dan's column for X number of years and then plot and act the way AAHHWW did makes me doubt about the use of advise columnists. But then come those other positive letters where readers and LWs say how much good has come out of such advise. Then I remember: we're only humans.

Be the better human being, AAHHWW, and forget about your shitty ex and his shitty wife. They deserve each other. Prove to yourself that you deserve better.
78
LW, did you think the whole "I'm leaving my wife...soon" story is new? Stick that book up your ass, sweetness. This is in no way a unique situation. You'll be fine.
79
@74. Nice comment.
80
@78. You have such a way with words.
" stick that book up your ass, sweetness". Classic.
81
How did you come to the consensus that the wife is also such a shitty person? For staying with a shitty husband? Because the "MISTRESS" says so?



A word of advice; he could be married to the virgin Mary and he'd still convince his mistress that his wife was a whore. She has done nothing to you. Get over it.
82
This letter writer's narrative, the one she wrote herself, makes her, by far, the worst person in this whole disaster. Usually, people at least have enough self-awareness to try to make themselves look like the good guy in their letters.
83
"This narcissistic asshole destroyed my marriage, knocked me up, lied to me, led me on, and... wait for it… somehow got genital warts while we were being monogamous with each other. (Or I was, anyhow.)"

All right, let's break this down:
"This narcissistic asshole destroyed my marriage" -- As others have said, the asshole who destroyed your marriage is you, hon.

"knocked me up" -- Unless he lied to you and told you he'd had a vasectomy (which, given how you are so the victim in everything, you would certainly have included) then you are as much to blame for that unwanted/unplanned pregnancy as he is. Did he force you to not use adequate birth control, lie about a vasectomy, or rape you? If none of those things is "yes," then it's you who should be getting furious at yourself for not taking more responsibility.

"lied to me" -- that seems blatantly obvious. However, again, you are not owning up to shit. Who the hell goes on Ashley Madison, the home of CPOS everywhere, and expects to find anything less than a CPOS? It's like buying a $9.99 iPhone6 and then being surprised it's a cardboard box with wires attached to the back.

"led me on" -- I think you know where I'm going here. The second you accepted "I'm in a DADT marriage" from a man on a bloody cheating website, and didn't even try to verify it (pretty convenient that DADT can't be verified without being violated), then you signed up to be led on. "My wife is mean/doesn't understand me/won't fuck me," is such the slogan of CPOS everywhere that your dude should have emblazoned it on a business card and handed it out.

"somehow got genital warts while we were being monogamous" -- genital warts can lie dormant for years, which means that unfortunately you know dick about when he got them. He could have got them ten years ago, or ten days ago. He could have got them from someone else he cheated on his wife with, or, hell, from his wife if she took a page from his book and cheated on him.

"while we were being monogamous (Or I was, anyhow.)" -- You are realizing what you knew damn well all along and ignored for the sake of some good dick: he was always lying to you.

I saved this for last: "-- wait for it -- " This entire letter is written by someone who has not yet owned up to the shitty role they played or the way they have set themselves up to be screwed over. Now that some of the lies you told yourself have been exposed, along with the ones he told you, you are staring at the possibility of realizing that you let yourself get conned by the oldest story in the book, and your marriage and self-confidence were the casualties. I can see why, when facing that abyss of a realization, you'd want to turn away and instead beat the drumbeat of your victimhood here. But uh-uh, baby. You played your own part in this.

84
Oooh, @83, well said. I truly hope she reads it.

And if she does, you're not an "almost-home-wrecking-whore", as you fully succeeded in wrecking a home, unfortunately it was your own.

If this wife is such a POS, and he STILL chose her over you, what does that make you?
85
@83. Not going to reread letter, but I'm pretty sure she said he was done with baby making. I assumed that to mean he had the snip.
86
@85 I just read that to mean he had said he didn't want to have kids anymore. I would not assume that someone who says that has been surgically altered.
87
And this poor girl had a miscarriage, not so long ago. Maybe that has contributed a lot to this wild revenge plot..
88
Wow, a lot going on here. I would think pulling ones self together and getting this sorted out may require some time with a therapist. Some major self reflection and healing and owning your shit is in order.
89
The wife could also retaliate as well if she feels her marriage is being attacked by a skank. Maybe keep the book as insurance though.
90
"About a year and a half ago I met a guy on Ashley Madison"

Attempted viral ad for Ashley Madison (not on Dan's end)? I could swear that there was some sort of expose that most all of the traffic there are bots run by the owners?
91
@69 I do find that strange, it's not exactly a positive "dating" site.
92
Send the book to the Ashley Madison team. It could be a great example of how not to use their site for the FAQ page, for example.
93
@Timothy: I've never met a person on an open relationship that would use Ashley Madison as a source.

Indeed, they do a great job of filtering out the boring judgmental poly crowd so that cheaters can easily find each other for hot unethical sex without a bunch a tedious moralizing.
94
@93: Totally, instead you self-select for the laser guided drama-seeking missiles.
95
@92: Considering their advertising, this is exactly the male and female demographic they wish to appeal to.
96
Good advice, but I'm surprised you failed to mention that the HPV vaccine only protects against 4 strains of genital warts. It's entirely possible, though less probable, that she had a dormant case of genital warts that the vaccination wouldn't address.
97
@93: I know, because not wanting to screw your partner over is so boring. It's much more interesting being a dishonest prick.

"judgmental poly crowd," hm? Well, anyone who openly advocates stabbing their spouse in the back (and who argues that this is actually better than an arrangement that lets you fuck lots of people without that act betraying your vows) ... well, that person deserves some judgment.
98
"Always been a nice sane lady up until now. That’s 35 years of sanity."

totally believe her
99
@98: "Normal" people always go out of the way to tell you how normal they are, it's EXACTLY the normal behavior for normal humans who are normal.
101
@89 - Exactly. My guess is that he's been telling the wife all about how he, with great reluctance, gave in to the LW's advances only to find out that she's a crazy stalker. He'll go into great detail about how much he regrets it and how it made him appreciate how sane and wonderful the wife is. When the wife receives the book, it will only reinforce what her husband's been saying and it will make the wife feel even closer to her husband. And, yes, that might entail exacting some sort of revenge.

In other words, sending the book will have the exact opposite effect the letter writer intends.
102
@gatoverde: I'm just saying that from the cheater's perspective, honest poly people are a bunch of sticks in the mud. Sadly, the cheater's perspective is all too often overlooked around here.
103
LW you said you want this guy to feel your pain but do you really think the book will do that? As others have pointed out it may wind up bringing the couple closer together by giving them an common enemy. And if you do destroy the marriage will that make what happened to you change? Would you honestly be proud of that?

Not to mention you may find the police knocking on your door as doing something like this could be considered revenge porn or stalking.

I agree with Dan, get some friends, get some drinks and hold a bonfire of the book. Then make it point to not give this guy another second of your time.
104
@60: Thanks, that makes sense. Huh. I was asking mostly because the prospective partner who falsely claims to be in a DADT arrangement seems to be such a stock character in stories like the LW's. Given my total experience with this kind of thing (i.e., nothing), it's a bit like asking an astronaut whether you can really jump that high on the moon.

As for asking people to bring their spouse along to prove consent... You'd better also ask them to bring the wedding album along. I've heard stories of people showing up with another girlfriend posing as the wife.

Holy crap. That's amazing. That's got to be like the Extreme Sports version of cheating.

@97: Seandr's teasing you... though I guess I've ruined the joke, now (sorry).

105
@102: This is an advice column for how to be a good, at the very least functional partner, not a how-to for people in a relationship on how to abuse the trust of their partners.

Why would Dan give persons tips on being a better and more convincing liar?
106
Dr Sean - I think your success in the other thread has gone to your head slightly (which one is open to interpretation).

Given that the cheaters are often the LWs looking for permission (which they get far too often, Mr Savage being, however understandably, extremely liberal with his stay-married-and-stay-sane-passes), we see quite enough of their perspective.

But the question does arise whether cheaters are better off with other cheaters, the unattached, or the partnered honest. Throwing in the sort of partner one prefers, and we could get up quite the little scientific-looking table.
107
I'm trying to figure out how Ms Shurenka's partner's spouse had that particular sort of nasty gesture coming. In order for it reasonably to be effective, it seems there would have to be a certain lack of knowledge that doesn't mesh easily with deserving the action.

If this were my novel, my first instinct would be to make it an MM couple and the spouse, knowing nothing of the affair, would be blatantly and nastily biphobic.