SL Letter of the Day: Closure


@97 The issue is not that he came without permission; the issue is that she hadn't realized they were having sex. She had thought they were making out, because their clothes were still on. She didn't know that one could "have sex" without taking off one's clothes. She had framed the interaction as a light make-out session, only to discover that they were having sex (by her culture's definition of sex).

@99 I'll send you an invoice. See you next week.
@Armyguy - I can probably imagine the shit I'd get if I said "see, the thing is, women just need to learn to please their man in bed better". And I'd be right to get it.
And I'm sure I'd get shit if I said "men, you need to learn how to please your women better." Everyone chooses what to give or it's unethical. You wouldn't get shit if you said "if a man doesn't get it at home he'll look elsewhere", you'd get a chorus of dtfwa (divorce the frigid wife already). Or talk of non monogamy. I'm saying that a man who can't take good care of his woman is gonna be single soon, even if he can refrain from assaulting her.

being shitty in bed is not exploiting your partner
not to mention, no wrongdoing was done by either party

And now it's stupid to apologize for being shitty. wtf. ok rant on whatever.
I think she would have been just as traumatized if he had stopped short of coming and said "oh, god, I think I'm going to come, we'd better stop now."

Zbot, I too had the used piece of gum lecture. Were you raised LDS? I also got the lollipop version. No one wants a licked lollipop, and if you let the lollipop get licked too much it DISAPPEARS.

If that is what is happening in this young womans mind then it's time for realized what actually happened and to allow her feelings to realign with reality.
@93, she didn't consent to activity that would lead to orgasm for either of them, and she was ignorant of the possibility that he would come given what they were doing. She doesn't mention guilt about the encounter because she doesn't regret the activity - the making out, which she consented to - but she feels he took advantage of her ignorance of the situation. She's off base, working with lots of misinformation and misconceptions. That he meant to come, that that constitutes some kind of non-consensual sex act. He didn't hold her down and hump her until he came, she would have mentioned that. It was one of her first experiences, and she's drawn many false conclusions. It makes sense only from the perspective of someone with profound lack of understanding about sex and sexuality.
My take: the boy was wrong for copping a feel w/o permission. Everything else is "normal" and to expect him to ask for consent before organism assumes he knows the signs. It does not seem that she was objecting to him being on top of her, or even the rubbing, only to the orgasm - or that the rubbing/dry humping only became a violation because or after he came (like that made it non-consensual sex instead of a consensual make-out session).

I am sensitive to her feelings and she needs help addressing those. What she does not need nor should receive is an apology for him (except for the groping though some 7 years later, he might not remember and not remembering at 21 does not mean he is an asshole for what he did at 14).

When I was 13 and 14, I had some great make out sessions - I remember even touching my then-GF's skin on her stomach at 13 and my then-GF's breasts just before I was 14. Sometimes my girfriends were on top and sometimes I was. But I can say - and believe this or not - that I would have had ZERO warning of an impending orgasm at that time since I had not yet had one. I'd see preejaculate after and figured, "well, I guess". I did not maturbate at that time. At the end of 8th grade, I had my first awake orgasm and it happened, embarrasingly, on a long bus ride with my head in my girlfriend's lap and her stroking my neck. My neck! I pretended to be asleep after and HOPED that the stain would be dry before I got up - not even knowing what it might look like (how wet, etc.). So even for some relatively "experienced" 13 or 14 year old boys, knowing how and when a first orgasm would occur is expecting a lot. If I had come in my jeans while on top of my girlfriend, I'd have been embarrassesd but because we never did anything that we both were not into, I'd never expect her appearing to ask for an apology years later. (NB: I am still friends with one of those two girls, almost 30 years later. She's one of my best friends and I adore her husband, too)
@108, I went to a relatively mellow Methodist church. The gum lecture came from a "guest speaker" to our youth group, where they separate the boys from the girls and talk about sex and peer pressure and all that jazz. The guest speaker had huge hair, shellacked make-up and Michelle Bachman eyes. It wasn't something that was harped on, I think they just brought in someone from outside the church so we wouldn't be talking to someone we had to see all the time. I had already lost my virginity, and while my church at large wasn't on the crazy fundie spectrum, it really was the beginning of the end to my religious feelings. It was when I started to feel that me and church might not have so much in common
@100 it is her lack of experience and understanding about sex that comes through in the letter. This is often the result of upbringing, and extreme sheltering that occurs with evangelical sex "education"
@EricaP - I think she would have been just as traumatized if he had stopped short of coming and said "oh, god, I think I'm going to come, we'd better stop now."
That's a much closer variant to the normal, "Gotta slow down before I blow, babe" than what occurred. She might not have mistaken bad sex for rape had no orgasm occurred. I don't see how this quote could be anything but awkwardly expressing respect, I don't see how it could be judged selfish or using her (not showing enough consideration).

Again, I'm not expecting a 14 year old to fit the standards of a good lover. Neither will I propose that she should keep a lover like this or that he has no reason to apologize.
@113, it wasn't supposed to be sex, of the good or bad kind. She didn't think they were having sex. That's why, if he had said anything like "gotta slow down before I come" she would have suddenly realized they were "having sex", and I think she would have found that just as (or almost as) hard to bear as what did happen.

In other words, I think the issue for her is that she "had sex" without understanding that was happening, rather than that he came.
I believe that 13-14 year olds understand that sex is a continuum and it starts with kissing, even just holding hands. So your statement that "She didn't think they were having sex," is not credible to me. Even the language she is using at 21 -- "explore my sexuality" -- is NOT what a 13-14 year old would say.

Reminds me of those stories about pre-iron age people who meet anthropologists (e.g. Margaret Mead) and tell them that they don't know how babies are made: the native people are making fun of the scientists,
@115, I personally gave lots of blow-jobs before I found the guy I would "have sex" with. To me, "having sex" meant PIV, and anything else was "just fooling around." People can create all sorts of arbitrary (but important to them) rules.
You and bill Clinton. :)
How old are you?

I find it astonishing, humorous, bizarre that anyone would think that a blow job is not sex. Sure, there are kinds of sexual experience.

All I can do is shake my head and wonder what sort of fantasy world of definitions we humans use to lie to ourselves.

For me, holding hands can be sexual if it involves the right woman.

But whatever, if others have a narrow definition such as SEX = PIV, then go have fun, kids.
Dry humping is not sex, not supposed to be sex, will never be sex. I speak as a guy who did a ton of it with the girl I should have lost my virginity to (grumble grumble), and one or two others. It is going thru the motions, it feels ‘kind of good,’ but I would have frankly been amazed had I achieved orgasm, though I was hard enough to dent adamantium.
A dry humping kid of either sex is not a ‘lover,’ s/he is someone who (often) fervently wishes to be, and is more or less settling for imitation sex.
Man, I was horny as anybody at 14, but blowing in my pants? That’s...well, I thought it was really rare, guys on this thread might help me out.

It’s good that I haven’t seen anyone on this thread, I think, say that the boy was abusive or potential rapist or what not.

As several before me have mentioned, you are entitled to your feelings, they are entirely valid to you, but that doesn’t necessarily make them valid, or part of the judicial code, and they can make your life harder than it has to be. That you sincerely hold feelings doesn’t make them legit in the eyes of the law or among non-crazy people.
I live in a town that used to have a massively long old bridge, that some folks would flat out refuse to drive over. Nobody doubted their sincerity, but it kept them from getting jobs or visiting friends on the other side.

It is also a very red state, and various 60-somethings are having conniptions that their sons have gay friends and their blonde daughters are dating black guys. Those parents are serious as a heart attack, and genuinely disturbed by this. Their lives are much harder as a result, as it’s (no longer) against the law here.
Sometime in the last couple of years, someone posted on a SL thread that seeing someone and later fantasizing about them, even if they had no knowledge of your existence, made them your ‘personal sex slave.’ If you somehow found out that someone in Accounting had seen you in the elevator, thought you were hot, and then fantasized about you, neither Human Resources nor the police would be inclined to help you with your case, and you’d be on the way to a life filled with unnecessary tension and angst.
@115, I can much more easily imagine a sheltered, inexperienced girl misunderstanding a sexual encounter in this way than I can imagine a 14 year old girl that thinks a boy coming in his pants during a make out session is akin to sexual assault because she didn't consent to his orgasm. The second scenario is way less plausible than the first, to me.
@117 for some, commenting on blog posts can be sexual, if it involves the right commenter.
"Dry humping is not sex, not supposed to be sex, will never be sex."

That's funny.
There seems to be a confusion about intent. The LW had the (perhaps eronious) assumption that the guy way trying to use her to ejaculate. Under that assumption, I can see how she could have felt used all these years. She didn't know that a guy can just come uncontrollably. Had she known that at the time, the whole encounter might have been interpreted differently. How we see things/what we expect colors everything.
" ( The) Bitchy, slutty ass(Es)", what a great name for a band, Philo.
Wild women would front that band. Speaking of wild women- Serena , the Amazon Woman, is once again cutting a sway thru the other women at the tennis.
@115 "I believe that 13-14 year olds understand that sex is a continuum and it starts with kissing, even just holding hands"

When you were 14 did you fuck everyone you held hands with? I'm not sure where you are coming from here. They were making out, that was all she wanted to do, she took his orgasm as evidence that he had elevated from kissing to a more a more advanced form of screwing around that she didn't consent to. She's wrong about that, but where do those assumptions come from? How could a 14 year old possibly be so naive about sex?
Jesus you guys, you've written a thesis.
Is my brain up to it, before my second cup of coffee.
@115, sorry I didn't realize how shitty my last comment sounded. But as to the perceptions of what constitutes sex for many teenagers, I have one word: saddlebacking. It seems like this girl has the extreme opposite version, if there is orgasm, some kind of sex must have occurred, and she consented to kissing, not 'sex'
@54, ArmyGuy26, well said. I don't think this situation warrants an apology either. Talk of the police is sorta creepy.
Obviously the word is out, as it should be, there there are some high grade arsehole men out there. She's 21(22/23 by now), she'd know the sdult woman ropes.
Fortunately, not all males are tarred with this brush. This 14 yr old boy is clueless, that is, I feel, his only crime.
And as my late dear Uncle Jack used to say,
" He ain't Robinson Crusoe there.."

It seems to me that if there is anything that Savage Love (the forum within which we are speaking) is ALL about it is that
1. there is a huge variety of human sexual experience and
2. that SEX can mean many many things and
3. that between genuinely consenting adults, it's none of anyone else's business (with probably some exceptions but I can't think of any off hand) what people do in private.

So, while people are free to define SEX as any way they want personally, I think it is unwise for society to go along with a narrow definition of SEX -- such as agreeing that the LW was not having sex when she was kissing her FB.

I think that it is much wiser for us to broaden the general definition -- taking into account for personal preference -- that "SEX" includes a wide variety of acts IF they have an intent or response to arouse.

@128, I'm not agreeing with her definition, nor do I like the definition I used when I was 18 (only PIV is sex). I'm much more aligned with your idea of having a broad interpretation of sex.

But in terms of understanding what was in the LW's head back then, and why she blamed him -- I think she found out suddenly that she had been "having sex" (by her understanding of the term) for ten minutes or so, and she thought he hadn't let her know when that started.

I hope she gets some therapy to help her figure out how to move past her anxiety and misplaced anger over that incident.
@ 128, I agree. But we are trying to make sense of why this girl would feel so victimized by what most people agree is a normal, if awkward, consequence of making out with a boy. If she was reading Savage Love when she was 14, she might have saved herself a lot of grief. I still maintain that she had no idea that what she was doing could lead to an orgasm on his part, and that realization crossed a line in her mind that what went down was something other than what she consented to, what ever her definition of 'sex' was.

That her perception of what happened hasn't changed over time, is odder still. If I had payed closer attention and realized that this letter was several years old, I probably wouldn't have gotten so involved, but my hope was that if I was correct (she's operating under sex negative influences) she might step back and look at things differently. I've got a laugh at Dan's suggestion to not read the comments. Add that to "don't click that link, you can't unsee it" or "don't look down". I agree that contacting this guy would be a mistake. It won't help her, it might actually traumatize him.
Erica P we are jinxes in this thread. what did we used to say when we were 14, pinch and poke you owe me a coke?
Obviously, this girl is traumatized, and her trauma is genuine. However, she has blown this incident wildly out of proportion and it's hurting her. She had an experience where she found out after the fact that she'd engaged in heavier sexual contact than she'd intended, which was understandably upsetting for her. But it wasn't the guy's fault - he was probably mortified by the incident - and the way she's allowing this to intrude on her life as an adult is unhealthy.

The fact that she mentions police and rape shows just how much power she's given this incident - she actually wants this guy to apologize for this, which (based on the way she relates the story) is incredibly inappropriate. It's unfortunate that she's suffered so much over this, but seven years after the fact, it's time for her to let go of this, and stop blaming this guy for her trauma. It's much likelier that it's her upbringing that's really to blame for this, and she needs to get some therapy and get to the bottom of it. If she's suffering this much over this incident, there's got to be a ton of other issues damaging other parts of her life. I think her need for an apology over something like this shows that she might be focusing on a minor trauma because the bigger ones are too painful.
ChicagoGirl .. Good post.
@131, our version never had consequences beyond light teasing, but I'm happy to learn an alternate approach. Did you ever get a coke out of it?
Nah, it was just something you said, like "punch bug" when you saw a VW beetle. I remember actually getting punched in the arm for those though
That I remember!
Her problem is a culture of slut-shaming and a lack of sex-ed, not a 14 year olds jizz
@36 @37

Maybe I was just a little ahead of the curve than most girls, but I absolutely knew what masturbation was at 14. I participated in self love pretty often from 14-18, yep. LW can be as offended and traumatized over this as she wants, but it sounds like she is making a mountain out of pebble that landed in her life accidentally.

Stewing over this just makes it harder to overcome, I have been raped, I lost my virginity by it. I was taken advantage of in an alley a few years later. In a situation involving the control of your life you can either choose to be stuck in trauma or live. The best thing you can do, LW, is to move on and talk to a therapist.
Rubbing up against someone *IS* dry-humping. That's how it's done. I get it that you were inexperienced, so you probably didn't know that.... but that's what it *is*.
Wow. Way to prove Dan completely right. Christ almighty.

We live in a culture where girls are taught that sex is dirty, degrading, shameful, don't do it, while guys are taught that it's manly, affirming, awesome, GO GET IT EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO TRICK HER INTO IT AND YOU WILL. So guess what: teenage boys do shitty things to teenage girls sexually. They just do. A lot. It doesn't mean they're terrible people and it doesn't mean they won't learn better later and it doesn't mean they should be locked up. But do you know what it also doesn't mean? It doesn't mean that girls who have shitty, surprising, unpleasant sexual experiences are she-devil, false-rape-accusing drama queens.
So no one here was ever sexually inexperienced?

I distinctly remember a friend in 8th grade -- age 14 -- being so upset because a guy she danced with at a dance got a boner. I can totally imagine someone without too much experience not really getting that a little movement down below was going to lead to bodily fluids being spilled upon her.

And let's not forget that there ARE a whole lot of teenage dudes (and not teenage dudes) who don't get consent. The way she ended up feeling about it may speak to the climate in the room. Had it been an embarrassing accident with an apology back then -- rather than him going forth with a good feeling without consulting her, she'd likely be looking back with a laugh instead of a visceral reaction like this.
Wow. I got sucked into reading these comments for almost an hour. I agree, though, this young woman was a victim of poor sexual education and there must be a lot of issues she needs to address with a therapist. If that is the worst thing that has ever happened to her or she dwells so much on something of this nature then she may be looking forward to a neurotic hell of an adult life. Hope she gets the therapeutic help she needs to be able to handle the real world.
Very true, I imagine LadyLaurel.
I wAs fortunate , I only had mild flirty times with boys.
They still did boy moves, yet they were respectful.
I don't understand why her inexperience and youthful confusion justifies her hurt feelings but his inexperience and youthful confusion makes him a terrible rapist monster. This seems to be a Rorschach test that reflects some readers desire to project their own feelings onto the LW more than anything else.
@ 35

I agree that EMDR would likely help her emotionally process what occurred. It was very effective for me on several, much more traumatic events.

I think on a rational level she senses that she should be able to let this go, but she's likely experiencing a visceral, emotional reaction to certain triggers. EMDR is great for that. She does not need to contact this dude for what was likely accidental or due to inexperience.
Then again, LadyLaurel, I was a chaste girl. No boy ever climbed on me at 14.
This girl was 14, 8-9 yrs ago. She would have known what that level of intimacy meant, clothes or not. Or been in some cupboard?
I didn't see images of sexual intercourse when I was growing up. Though I was introduced to it via being in a caravan with wayward friends of my parents, who thought nothing of fucking when a five yr old is supposed to be asleep. I wasn't.
Grits, if he came out of the experience with of making out and dry-humping a girl and unexpectedly coming in his pants with ‘a good feeling,’ rather than confusion and shame, I’m a Chinese jet pilot.
She didn’t have any 'fluid spilled upon her,’ Lord Byron, it stayed in his Wranglers. Jeez, this wasn’t a porn shoot.
What would you say now to your 14-year old friend who felt that erection?
A guy coming in his pants wasn't a crafty plan for self-satisfaction, it’s a mortifying accident for the guy that he was praying to whatever gods he knew the girl would not report to her friends. What DrJones said, x10.
i had an orgasm reading the comment thread. thanks folks!
I think the issue is she consented to making out, because she wanted to explore her sexuality a little - emphasis on "a little". But she never consented to a full sex act. Being only 14 years old, she didn't even understand what the boy was doing, never consented to him having sex with her, but then he did exactly that - used her for a complete sex act all the way to the point of orgasm. So, she felt used and in a way she was never willing to consent to. Being only 14, she was too young to understand what was happening. If the person doing this had been an adult, then I would definitely say the man in question should be arrested. The tricky bit is that the other person was also a child - a child who quite likely also didn't really fully understand what he was doing. They were both too young to properly handle what they were doing, which is deeply unfortunate. But probably the best thing to do at this point is simply to get therapy.
rarely ever disagree with dan. and while i don't actually disagree per say the better thing for you/her to do is get to a therapist and work this out on your own. we frequently think we need apologies from other people to get over...past...beyond something that happened to us, with someone else. its usually not the case. while an apology is nice this is about you/her, not him. he's only a subject, not the cause. besides that, this is also a much safer route in case he IS the asshole dan speaks of.
p.s for obvious, or not so obvious reasons. i'm not touching the age, act(s), traumatization (dan's not the only one who can make up words) or anything else debatable. except this:

For the most part, this hasn't scarred me too much. I'm comfortable with my sexuality. However, it's very painful for me to think about what happened...{and goes on to explain said traumatization}

talk about cognitive dissonance, at least now.

and this. i'm sure we got better letters out there that need attending to dan. this did sound a bit hooey.
@149 Let me get this right.

Let's say this is the same story only with 24 year olds instead of 14 year olds. They are making out, laying on top of each other, grinding and rubbing. The girl never says, "Stop, no, please don't." She keeps kissing and holding the guy. During all the kissing, rubbing, grinding and clear sexual activity happening the guy has an orgasm. You think the guy should "be arrested" for this?
@152, I think uncreative meant that if it was a 24 year old guy and a 14 year old girl, and she didn't understand what they were doing besides kissing, and then he came on her, that he should be arrested for that. I'm not sure I agree, but I think that's what uncreative meant.
Ms Cummins @65 - That's actually the first question I'd ask her in cross-examination. Did she consult a sex-positive columnist or did she consult a columnist who believes that men are pigs and thinks non-feminists ought to be permanent incels?
@153 OH! Ok, that makes much more sense.
@152 As 153 explained. My issue is that we do not have sex with 14 year olds, because many of them cannot give informed consent yet, and the only way to tell which ones can and which ones cannot is to wait several years and talk to them about whether or not they really did understand what they would be consenting to when they were 14 (and even then, memory can play tricks). Sexual activities with children often traumatize the child, and she was a child. So, yeah, not cool if an adult did that to a 14 year old. But because he was also 14... he didn't necessarily really understand what he was doing either, and he was too young to understand how much harm he could cause her by the act. It's possible he did. It's possible he deliberately used her. But there's just no way to know with the info we have. And I'm not inclined to hold 14 year olds responsible for such actions. So, it's just deeply unfortunate that this happened to her. It's not surprising that it hurt her so badly. But I don't think there's really anything helpful to do at this point other than to get professional therapy to help move past it.
When I was 21 and finally had a girlfriend, I came just from kissing her, without intending to, because I was excited about being with her. It made me really happy because it was part of liking her. I told her about it because I thought she would be happy to know how much I liked her. Never in my wildest dreams would it occur to me that I had taken advantage of her because I enjoyed kissing her. It also never occurred to me that I should be embarrassed, or that it meant I wouldn't be "good at sex", or that she would think there was something not-mutual in our interaction because my body responded in a doesn't way than hers did. I guess I was lucky to have avoided taking on those kinds of negative ideas about sex.

I didn't grab her boobs without asking, though. That's a jerk thing to do.
She didn't consent to the dry humping! She didn't consent to the boob grab! I feel like I am in bizarro land. She didn't understand what was going on until he left to get cleaned up. The idea that you need ongoing consent isn't wrong. The fact that the LW feels violated isn't wrong or unreasonable considering the fact that the boy didn't ask if she was OK with dry humping. Consent for one action doesn't mean that consent applies to everything. WSN isn't saying that she didn't consent to the boy's orgasm, FFS. Unfortunately, it is common for young children to not understand the importance and need for ongoing consent, but that doesn't make the LW wrong for feeling awful because the boy didn't ask if she was still comfortable with the escalated touching.
@144 -I just want to chime back in one more time to say that at no point in the entirety of this thread has anyone claimed the boy is a rapist monster who needs to be locked up.
I doubt the veracity of this letter. If they were dry humping and he came in his pants, it's highly unlikely that she'd have any clue, unless he announced it. It's even less likely that a 14 year old boy would declare himself a premature ejaculator.

In the pre-internet days when I was that age, me and my friends used to hop the fence at the local drive-in to watch the 1970's era drive-in T&A movies. In one of those the nerdy guy in the movie was ridiculed for being a premature ejaculator. For the next several years, I rubbed one out just about every time I went out with my friends in fear of the highly unlikely possibility that I'd find myself in a situation with a girl where I'd suffer the misfortune of coming in my pants. No 14 year old boy wants to be labeled a premature ejaculator!

@160, it reads like he did announce it, and she was left with the impression that he began dry-humping her with intent to orgasm, and got up and left to "clean himself up" when orgasm was achieved. Even if this was case, and she only realized what had happened after the fact, I can imagine her feeling bad about it, but not the 7 year trauma. Something else is going on with this girl
Two questions -

- Would anyone on this thread be calling ‘justified traumatization’ if the genders were reversed, and a 14-year old girl came rubbing against her unprepared boyfriend? Certainly not a crazy scenario; it’s true that boys start masturbating almost universally earlier than women, what can trigger orgasm in women is a lot more fluid, less mechanical. I’ve had two female friends describe their first orgasms as coming in the midst of make out sessions, with no genital contact whatsoever.

- Is anyone on this thread who continues to describe dry humping as a targeted sex act, male? Because it seems like pretty much every guy on here is describing premature ejaculation as a dreaded, embarrassing mistake, certainly not an aimed-for goal (“Dude! I think I might get some dry humping action tonight! Gonna totally blow in my pants!”), but there seems to be a subset thinking, with the LW, that he achieved some nefarious goal, which the context of her letter indicates was the origin of her traumatized state.
It’s like a bunch of guys telling a woman with menstrual cramps, Yeah, it maybe hurts a little, but aren’t you lying curled up in bed for the sympathy?
Cat Brother, I agree that the boy wasn't trying to come.

Conversely, I do think that if a young teen boy felt upset after his girlfriend had an orgasm on him (because he had thought they were just making out and didn't mean for it to get that far), many posters would also have compassion for him.

We can have compassion for her distress without blaming him in any way.
Edit to 163: We can have compassion for WSN's distress without blaming her former boyfriend in any way.
163: Well, definitely from Kim in Portland, but she was cursed with eternal niceness and compassion, since she stole the eye from that statue in India.
@162, gender reversal doesn't take into account that many teen-aged girls are taught that the more sexual activity they consent to, the less people will think of them, the less they will be respected, etc. This is not the case for teen boys. Not to mention, nobody is blaming the boy, to any great extent. And dry-humping to completion is something teens do, as a form of less risky sex. It's not unheard of for a girlfriend to get her boyfriend off this way, if she's not ready for blow jobs or hand jobs or any activity that involves removing cloths. For 14, it sounds about right. I wish I had stuck to dry humping for a few more years. Three close friends pregnant in high school, and there but for the grace of god..
True, she might have been inculcated with the idea that engendering any orgasm at all made her a who-ah, and that is certainly too bad.
It is nice that nobody's piling on the young lad.

Calling dry humping 'a less risky form of sex' is...humorous. Like calling what conservative pundits who called for war but staying home themselves as 'engaged in a less risky form of combat,' or looking at and smelling a delicious casserole 'a lower-caloric, less-filling type of eating.' Dry humping isn't any kind of sex. It's pretend sex, where one or both parties rub up against each other, sometimes (not always) signalling an intense desire for the real thing.
'Less' risky - trying to think of ANY risks, all I got is zipper burn. Which brings us to -
I myself have never heard of d.h. to O as 'a thing teens do,' not from Dan or anyone who writes about sex, not from friends, not in my own experience. Handjobs, blowjobs, but not this. A young guy jacking himself off is usually a sure thing, rubbing up against a zipper is definitely not; if a young lady had offered to let me rub to orgasm, I'd have been a bit puzzled, then declined, as that shit might go on and on, getting rawer all the time.

Has anyone else here (assuming you're still reading) heard of this as any kind of a widespread deliberate practice, vs an embarrassing accident?
@162 Absolutely. Gender is irrelevant. Somebody using you sexually in a way you don't consent to, and especially when you are a child and before you even understand what the person is doing is very often traumatic. Boys can be traumatized that way too. I suspect that this will rarely happen to a boy with a girl of roughly the same age, but if it did and he was traumatized then I would consider that quite understandable.

Again, I think age is important here. I think an adult would be better able to negotiate how far they are willing to go and to understand when things have turned more sexual. I could still conceive of a situation where an adult was traumatized by being used to reach orgasm when they were only ready for make-outs, but it's less likely to come up or to be as traumatizing. But to suddenly have to cope with having been used sexually with no warning nor consent - for your first time getting someone else off to have been shoved upon you without you even knowing it might happen - that's some pretty rough stuff. It's still the case that cultural sexism makes this more likely to traumatize a girl than a boy, but it could also traumatize a boy.
@53: Thank you for answering 52. That's approximately what my response was going to be.
@68: You keep using that word: satire. I do not think it means what you think it means.
@94: You work for the company in order to work for the company, but instead are being subjected to sexual exploration.

Letter Writer was making out with her partner for the purpose of sexual exploration, and ended up with sexual exploration.

Better find a different analogy, because this one is broken.
@113/114/115: There is a very good possibility that it _wasn't_ sex, that it was only making out the whole time, from _both_ of their perspectives, right up to the instant he came in his pants. That it went directly from being (consented-to) "making out" to (nonconsensual) "sex" with literally no change in either intent or in physical activity on the part of either of them, and that the change in definition between making out and sex was entirely the result of an involuntary physical response.

Like #110 says, the first time he came while awake, it was from having his NECK petted, for gods sake.
@172 That is precisely why I feel that if he had been an adult, this would have been sexual assault. But from the point of view of the letter writer, it is no less traumatic to be harmed by someone who cannot necessarily be held responsible for his actions. So, her trauma is understandable. But that is exactly the sort of information I do not expect the average 14 year old (boy, girl, or genderqueer) to be aware of. Which is why she wasn't capable of giving informed consent, and quite possibly, neither was he. But she was used without her informed consent. I don't think anyone here has even argued that she gave informed consent. That she even slightly consented to an activity that she thought could lead to him having an orgasm.
Jeffrey, man, don’t want men running after me, as when they do, they’re generally holding summonses, and you can have my ex and keep her, but I want to be rich, and kids are delicious, especially the Paleo ones raised on a low carb diet, so hook a brotha up with your doctor Prophet.
I’m picturing the Prof looking like Geoffrey Holder in Live and Let Die, with half his skull painted white, for some reason. Aw, shit, Jeff, bad dreams, now!

173: I think, barring physical damage, we have to take intent into consideration when we’re figuring out whether to be traumatized by something. I deliberately bump you, you’re justifiably mad, I slip on some ice and bump you as I fall, you’re (presumably) not. If you’re bruised, my intent doesn’t matter to your injury, but who are you going to get mad at, gravity?

If LW had somehow found that the young man in question had a wet dream about her, we can agree that that’s not worth getting upset about, I hope: neither of them were angling for that, though an orgasm occurred.
Even an enlightened young man of 14 wouldn’t have asked for informed consent, because he wasn’t angling for an orgasm. It was a make-out session that she clearly said she was down for. He might as well have sneezed on her after inhaling some fiber from her sweater. Had he done so, he might have ruined the mood, or gotten some mucus on her, but it wasn’t the culmination of a devious plan.

Still waiting to hear others chime in on whether at their high schools a common tactic to get your boyfriend off while everyone keeping their clothes on, was to let him hump your leg or something ‘till he blew. Until I do, I’m lumping that idea in there with rainbow parties.
@Cat Brother - Letting your partner hump off on you is more often how guys get their girl off. Maybe not always on purpose...

Coming from dry humping is a thing for a lot of women far past high school. Prolly the ones who started solo sex with pillow humping. How old are you?
Philiophile@176 - Oh sure, I know that women can get off that way, a lot more easily by men. In my fervent virginal reading on how to be good in the sack, many women reported orgasming from steady rubbing pressure completely outside the vagina. “Vibrating a fist on top of the pubic bone” is a phrase that stays with me from the 80’s...
As mentioned, female friends have reported coming from basic above-the-waist making out.

It’s an example of how men, especially boys, can get aroused or at least erect, on a dime, in situations where females would not, and women can orgasm from stimulation that would do nothing for men.
2 examples from the gym come to mind - Hanging knee raises, Eagle pose in yoga.

So, if she’d said she’d orgasmed unexpectedly, it would jibe with my experience. Presenting this as a sex act boys regularly perform to get off, does not, nor I submit with the experience of any other guys on this thread.
Above should read ‘than men,’ rather than ‘by men.’

I’m 49.
@175 "we have to take intent into consideration when we’re figuring out whether to be traumatized by something."

You think traumatized is something we decide to feel, or not feel?

I think you and avast are right that the boy intended nothing more than sex. But I think that the girl suddenly felt she had been pulled into having sex without her knowledge. I think that was a sincere feeling she had. And since the two children probably never discussed the issue with each other or anyone else, she has been left to stew in her own emotional reaction ever since. That's why therapy would be useful for her.
Whoops - edit: the boy intended nothing more than making out.
Erica, we don’t disagree.

We don’t decide what traumatizes us, but we assign blame or value based on people’s actions based on what we perceive their motives to have been, as in my example of intentional vs unintentional bumping. This girl assigns intent to the guy, as have a few people on this thread, which is where her continued reaction comes from.
We can assign intention to someone’s actions and sincerely react to that, and still be completely wrong. “You never answered my calls! You don’t care about me!””Actually, my phone fell in the toilet, and I was locked in that bathroom for two hours, so I had no way of knowing you called.”

Presumably, a therapist could explain that guys can go off like loaded guns, it wasn’t intentional and he was mortified, and that will change how she thinks of that terrible day.
@181 Happy surprise, thanks! Yes, dry humping is not as much sex for guys as girls. And embarrassment can lead to feigned nonchalance. Hope that helps her. Or she could have been with an uncaring jerk, so she should learn to speak up and try to differentiate ignorance vs negligence.

But I think every poster agrees that ignorant exploration is not assault.
Assault is when someone ignores stop or no, I should say. Bad sex just means you dump the other. And bad sex can be funny, poor boy.
Quick, mods, close the thread, people are agreeing and nobody's mad, and Seattleblues isn't stopping by!
@181 She's traumatized. He caused it. Intent is irrelevant. If you slip and knock into somebody and they fall into the path of a car and are injured in a way that causes them ongoing pain for years, you owe them an apology whether or not you in any way meant to do it. Intent is relevant if we want to talk about whether or not the boy was a horrible person. I don't think the boy was. I think he was a clueless teenager having non-consensual sex with another clueless teenager too young to give informed consent for the action that occurred. That's traumatizing. We can acknowledge her legitimate trauma, recognize that the boy caused it, and not need to tar and feather the boy. We can also recognize that this is precisely why it is illegal to have sex with children - because far too often even if they give some signs of consent, they are not actually giving informed consent (which is what real consent is), and thus may easily end up in a horribly traumatizing situation. If she had been older, odds are far better that she would have gone into things with a better understanding of what might occur and a better ability to cope with what happened. But she was instead harmed as a child, and it is incredibly common for that to lead to long-lasting, painful trauma. This isn't something she chose or some silly, little thing she can just get over. Although therapy would probably help.
See, mods, what happens when you don’t listen?

@185, she’s traumatized the way white women in my current hometown would have been if a black man had whistled at them 100 years ago.
She didn’t catch a bullet from some careless hunter and get a bum leg that aches when rain’s a’coming, and she didn’t have her dog run over by a reckless driver who flipped her off as he drove past. Her pain is self-generated, most likely some combo of religion, Carrie’s Mother at home (your dirty pillows!), and ignorance of how young boys operate.
Having a 14 year old dude cream his jeans in your presence is not being hit by a car, it’s not being splashed by a car that runs through a puddle, it’s being near that splashy car and thinking, gorsh, that could’ve gotten on me!
Uncreative, would you support this same level of trauma-acknowledging if the LW had humped her way to an unexpected orgasm on her BF’s leg and years later he was talking about magnanimously mentioned he wasn’t going to get the cops involved?

Really, though, like how this thread has mostly gone.
Kim, where you at, girl? You could contribute with your calm, guitar playing presence...
@186 Reversing the genders changes nothing. I, personally, agree with statutory rape laws. We consider it sexual assault to engage in sexual activities with children, because we acknowledge that many of them are incapable of giving informed consent. She was a child, and she was sexually assaulted. I do consider that on par with being hit by a car. The issue, however, is that he was also a child - and he was also not necessarily capable of giving informed consent. So, I do not necessarily hold him responsible. But I don't like the way commenters make light of a child being sexually assaulted. I assume most of the people doing so probably were more developed at age 14. It varies a lot. I certainly would not have been capable of giving informed consent for such an action at age 14. And many other people would not be able to either. This is why most places err on the side of not molesting children and say that 14 year olds are off-limits for sexual activity.
uncreative, assault requires intent, by definition. Since the LW and her boyfriend were underage, it wasn't technically legal for them to be engaging in sexual activity, but they were the same age and both consented to making out, so neither was assaulting the other. She was not aware of exactly what was happening until after, which was understandably upsetting, but she wasn't assaulted because no one intended to harm her. The getting-hit-by-a-car analogy doesn't really work here, either; it's much too extreme an example.

I've been sexually assaulted, both as a child and an adult, and I'm not minimizing her trauma (I've also been in a car accident has caused by someone else that has given me ongoing pain for years, for what it's worth). But her suffering is a very extreme reaction to what happened, and what she desperately needs is therapy. If the guy is nice, he'll apologize to her, but I'd bet he'll also be upset and deeply confused (and maybe need therapy for himself) to learn that what happened that day damaged this girl so badly.

I do think that the LW's anguish over this suggests that there's a lot more going on with her than just this incident, and she needs help.
I'd like to add about closure in general

Closure is always on your side. Imagine you find him online, but he has died. He is dead. You will never know, he will never apologize. What, are you going to live the rest of your life unhappy because you didn't get closure for this?
Gove yourself closure. Move on. Do it for yourself.
Might I remind everyone who goes on and on about how she was "a child" and how "traumatic" this was for her.....

So was he. We're not going to pull the whole BULL FUCKING SHIT of well - he should have known better, blah blah blah. Why? He was 14 years old. A child. So was she. She had a traumatic sexual experience - which in no way was his fault - and quite frankly I don't think he owes her jack shit. I think she needs to see a counselor to work out why after SEVEN years she hasn't chalked this up to to that kinky weird shit that happens to all of us... oh yeah.. I bet you a million dollars that she's had other things happen to her and she's focusing on this one incident as the cause of her sexual issues, because otherwise the story simply does not fly. Most anyone else would shrug if off with a *shiver* "ew!" and move on with life - years before.

Or, maybe this letter is the cause of seeing the kind of therapist who takes you on a journey of every thing that happened in your life and turns you in to the kind of self-centered person that believes that everyone who ever has run into you owes you some sort of apology for what they have ever done to you. You know, so you can become some sort of complete person that just annoys the hell out of people because you think you're holistic and living your truth when really you're just a fake piece of shit who is trying to maintain a pathetic image of your former youth that nobody really buys, but hey honey, you keep selling yourself! Wait... what am I talking about? I don't even care anymore. Oh yeah. Grow up sweetheart. Far worse things happen at sea than another kid rubbing up against you and getting off. A lot of women actually get raped. I've been raped. I wish that's all he had done. Jesus Christ.
@189 You seem to be talking about legal definitions. I was talking about psychological effects. From the point of view of what she endured psychologically - she was sexually assaulted. That it doesn't meet the legal definition is relevant with regards to pressing charges, but irrelevant in terms of what the expected psychological impact would be. That's why I used the accidental shoved into the path of a car example. Nobody is to blame, but that doesn't make getting hit by a car hurt any less.
Oh, also, stop saying she consented. She did not.

Consent is only consent when it is informed consent. She was not informed. Therefore she did not consent. This was nonconsensual sexual activity that happened to a child. If you disagree with that, demonstrate that she gave informed consent.
I really shouldn't get back off the boat here, but what the hell...
Uncreative, the girl was not sexually assaulted, unless I was sexually assaulted the last time a woman in a club grabbed my butt. If she poked him hard with her pinky finger, she technically assaulted him. In related news, if three 12-year olds agree that one of them will distract a shopkeeper while the other two shoplift, they're getting organized to commit a crime, so really, they're members of Organized Crime, technically, but maybe we won't get all RICO on their asses, just to say.
Glad you recognize that she can't press charges, not sure why you can"t process the rest of it.
This is why if you work in an office and someone steals your idea and presents it to the boss, you don't talk about having them arrested for felony theft. If your article gets rejected and you feel like the publisher has killed your budding writing career, nobody wants to hear about how you feel like a murder victim, and if you mentioned the police, even in passing, people would question not just your sense of entitlement but your sanity.

You can have whatever feelings you want, the rest of the world is not bound to honor them, based on somewhere between jurisprudence and what society finds the 'reasonable person' standard to be. This is why, you see, an old Southern lady might have an attack of the vapors seeing her niece with a black date, but we don't have to rush and fan her, or reassure her that she's been wronged and she needs therapy. Somewhere right now in America, a rich girl is really, truly, seriously traumatized that she doesn't have an iPhone 6 ("What the fuck, dad, this Samsung piece of shit is what I get?!!") The Stranger recently ran a story of a young Texas teen who was really traumatized that he didn't get a truck for Christmas. His dad was so traumatized by his son's ingratitude that the clocked him with a ball bat. I'm sure they both felt fully justified in their actions, but we don't have to.

Informed consent - what happened was involuntary on his part, blurting out 'can I jizz my pants?' wasn't really an option. Contrary to what you wrote earlier, the genders involved have everything to do with it; a boy writing in about his traumatization from the much more common scenario of a girl orgasming on his leg while fully clothed would have garnered no calls for her apology. It would have been divided between people splitting their sides and calling it fake, people questioning his grasp on reality, and some heartfelt Kim-like suggestions to get professional help, pronto.
@48 "14-year-old girls who think they own their significant other's bodies are wrong"

It seems her problem with this entire thing is that the 14 year old boy figured he could use her body any way he wanted, i.e. owned her body. She would not have permitted what he did had she known he was going to do it. Having someone you don't want to hump you do so without consent (while probably knowing it wasn't ok with her), as your first sexual experience, could certainly scar you and clearly in this case did if she can't tolerate sex when someone else is on top of her for fear of panic attacks/flashbacks.