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Free Spirit, My Ass
February 12, 2009
Recently, I celebrated my first year of marriage to the most amazing man. When we first began dating, he told me that he enjoys open sexuality and wants swinging to be part of any partnership he's in. I regard myself as free-spirited and agreed to explore this with him. We delayed experimentation because I had a stressful job and I wanted to spend my limited free time with him instead of exploring our sexuality with multiple partners. My work situation changed, and we have since had about a dozen experiences in the past year. I have discovered that these situations are not a turn-on for me—in fact, they are a turnoff. I feel resentful after these episodes, and I don't feel like having sex for days. We have discussed this at length, and we have been seeing a counselor. Recently, we had a civil discussion wherein we discussed the possibility of him having these sexual experiences without me, since I do not find them compelling. This idea appealed to him. He proposed going to a sex party alone that very night.
Ever since then, I have been crushed by the prospect of my husband having a sex life outside of our relationship. Since we met, his sexuality has had an outward trajectory, rather than being relationship centered. Having a healthy sexual relationship with him is enough for me. He makes a good point that he has been straight about his desire for this lifestyle since day one, but I am still frustrated and horrified that my husband needs to have sex outside of our marriage. I can't help but feel hurt that I alone am not enough for him.
I'd appreciate your straight, honest feedback on this.
Sex Best One On One
Straight, honest feedback: You are an idiot. Your husband informed you in advance about the "outward trajectory" of his sexuality; you knew going in that your husband could never be satisfied in a marriage that didn't involve "open sexuality" and swinging. Don't come crying to me now because the man you married wants to actually have sex with other people. You knew that before you married him, SBOOO, because he fucking told you so.
You're unlikely to encounter a marriage counselor who'll take your husband's side (nonmonogamy? boo!) over yours (monogamy? yay!), SBOOO, so I'm going to aggressively come to his defense: You're never going to convince your husband that one-on-one ought to be enough for him. Sorry. You're also going to have a hard time convincing him that you didn't deceive him in the run-up to this marriage. When he told you that monogamy was a deal breaker, SBOOO, you replied that you were "free-spirited" and willing to "explore." But, alas, circumstances beyond your control prevented you from embarking on any explorations until after the wedding, and only then—only after he married you—did you discover that your husband's sexual interests both frustrated and horrified.
How convenient.
Because if you'd been a little less stressed at work, SBOOO, maybe you could've made time for a little swinging before the wedding. Then you might've learned that nonmonogamy wasn't for you and been able to give this amazing man that information before he married your ass. Oh, but your work schedule didn't allow for premarital explorations, and now this amazing man has to decide whether to go through the hell of a divorce—knowing full well that he will be seen as the bad guy by all your relatives and friends, and 99.99 percent of marriage counselors—or give in to your emotional, sexual, and financial blackmail.
Want more evidence that you weren't negotiating with your husband in good faith before the wedding, SBOOO? How about this: You aren't negotiating with him in good faith now. So you recently had "a civil discussion" with him about the possibility of his going to sex parties alone—how many uncivil discussions have you had?—but then you were crushed when he wanted to take you up on this proposed compromise. So once again he wants to fuck around, once again you agree to his fucking around in principle, once again he proposes fucking around in earnest, and once again you lose your shit—only this time you go boohooing to an advice columnist and not a marriage counselor.
Sorry, SBOOO, you picked the wrong columnist. You want and always wanted a monogamous commitment. Free spirit, my ass. You are—surprise!—sexually incompatible. Divorce. Get it over with.
I'm a male with submissive tendencies, and my wife decides when I get to orgasm. We have sex regularly, but she only lets me ejaculate occasionally. She finds that I'm more attentive to her now that we're doing "orgasm denial," and I get to scratch my submissive itch. Ain't life grand?
Here's my question: I enjoy pushing the limits, and I've gone as long as six weeks without release. (We use a CB-6000 chastity cage on my cock so I won't succumb in a moment of weakness.) But I'm a little concerned about the effects on my prostate. After several weeks of denial, I leak pre-come when aroused. I've read that recent studies showed that frequent ejaculation reduces the risk of prostate cancer. Am I putting myself at greater risk by ejaculating so infrequently? Can you ask your medical expert?
Loving Orgasms And Denial Every Day
Two orgasm-denial questions in two weeks—it's officially a trend! Can a Good Morning America segment be far behind?
"We still have very little idea what might cause or prevent prostate cancer," says Dr. Barak Gaster, associate professor of medicine at the University of Washington and our resident medical expert. "There are some clues—red meat, probably bad; vegetables, probably good; vitamin E, probably not helpful—but we're really still in the dark." And while most studies have shown frequent ejaculation to be good for prostate health, one recent study out of the UK showed the exact opposite.
So what should you do? Rely on the best-available study, advises Gaster. "[That study] followed U.S. men for eight years and found that those with the most ejaculations per month (more than 20) had a 30 percent lower risk of prostate cancer compared to those who were having fewer per month (about five)." But there is good news in the study for you, LOADED: "The 5 percent of men who reported having zero to three per month appeared to have a lower risk for prostate cancer as well," said Gaster. "The caveat is that this group was too small to make definite conclusions about them. But it looks like coming more than 20 times a month could be good for you in terms of prostate cancer, but it's unlikely that coming very little, like zero to three times per month, is necessarily bad for you compared to coming once or twice a week."
So ejaculate frequently, guys, or ejaculate rarely, because it would appear that moderation in pursuit of prostate health is no virtue.
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4
Wow, Dan, you really came on hard with SBOOO... but I have to agree. It doesn't sound like she was all that honest with him up front.
As far as the restriction of male orgasms, where do I sign up, and how to I turn my wife onto this practice?
As far as the restriction of male orgasms, where do I sign up, and how to I turn my wife onto this practice?
5
Wow - my first thought was sympathy for SBOOO.
Thinking I'm like her.
Except I'm not. I've always thought a committed relationship should be monogamous. And I've always been truthful about it.
I find your advice very sound. (Unfortunately...)
Thinking I'm like her.
Except I'm not. I've always thought a committed relationship should be monogamous. And I've always been truthful about it.
I find your advice very sound. (Unfortunately...)
6
good on ya dan - SBOOO needed that!
it looks like she's been asking all round town for the answer you gave her. now she's got it, i bet she'll screw it up even more as we've seen that in the past, once she's got the hard answers to the silly questions she aska, she doesn't listen and continues down the same tragic path. good luck to her in finding a husband who hasn't got outside desires.
it looks like she's been asking all round town for the answer you gave her. now she's got it, i bet she'll screw it up even more as we've seen that in the past, once she's got the hard answers to the silly questions she aska, she doesn't listen and continues down the same tragic path. good luck to her in finding a husband who hasn't got outside desires.
7
hahahah dan i died laughing at your advice for sboo. so true though, probably wanted to get married more than anything and just thought that marriage would 'magically' make her husband not want to have sex with other people anymore. what a lame-o.
9
Man, I agree with your "on your own head be it" sentiment for SBOOO, but you're terribly harsh, no? Lots of people don't know themselves as well as they should sexually, and lots of people are freaked by nonmonogamy. It sucks to be this couple, but it's not an unheard of insecurity. And I think you should have called the husband on one point: having a conversation about having sex with other people himself and then proposing to go out that night isn't particularly gentle and understanding, no matter how ill used he's feeling.
10
The advice to SBOOO was spot on! Too many monogamous women cruise for and pick up on swinging/poly men, feeding them that exact line of bullshit. And it's all for that same hope for a future power rush that has always kept women flocking to the incompatible: the sad forlorn hope that they will be "important enough" to change for. It all comes down to that, doesn't it?
Can we finally start focusing on something other that our egos for a while? PLEASE?!?!
Can we finally start focusing on something other that our egos for a while? PLEASE?!?!
11
I've not a shred of sympathy for Sbooo....her fiance was upfront and honest, and instead of a caring, supportive partner, he gets a lying sac of bull. I hope the poor guy doesn't get taken to the cleaners by this dishonest woman.
12
ya know maybe sbooo's partner could take some responsibility here. How could he not notice? And even though she was delusional, people do change their minds. I did and had to break up over it. It wasn't what i thought i wanted. But yep, he was Mr. good bar and she lied to herself to have him. bummer
14
It seems odd that two people would go so far as to marry, one knowing full well that the other had a kink that was very important to him and was non-negotiable, without actually indulging the kink first and seeing how things went. Especially one as potentially threatening to a relationship as this one. I have to wonder, too, if she honestly had no expectation that she might possibly have a problem with it. You'd think you'd know yourself better than that before you decide to make as serious a commitment as marriage.
15
LOADED should try prostate milking if he would like to ejaculate on a regular basis while still experiencing something like chastity. Tell him, Dan!
16
Hey, swinging isn't something you can harmlessly pretend being ok with when dating so you can get in someone's pants and later-after getting committed, that is- confess you hated all along like going to football games, salsa dancing, vegan restaurants or whatever.
It's hard to have a drama-free relationship, polyamorous or monogamous, and this guy gets all the credit for being honest upfront.
And yes, the marriage counseling does count as emotional blackmail, only potentially devastating because it's not just you and him: you get the backup of science, law and society.
That's just very, very unfair.
It's hard to have a drama-free relationship, polyamorous or monogamous, and this guy gets all the credit for being honest upfront.
And yes, the marriage counseling does count as emotional blackmail, only potentially devastating because it's not just you and him: you get the backup of science, law and society.
That's just very, very unfair.
18
Hey, here's a thought - maybe it isn't "real" swinging unless you are married. Possibly she wanted to wait for the real deal before trying it?
Not?
Not?
19
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
What?!? Only 2 letters?!?!?
What is this also due to the economic downturn Dan?
Boo - we need more Dan.
kisses xoxoxox
What?!? Only 2 letters?!?!?
What is this also due to the economic downturn Dan?
Boo - we need more Dan.
kisses xoxoxox
20
Actually, this does bring up a more important larger question - how do you go to a marriage counselor in a situation where the main problem centers around something fetishistic or weird (unless you are a Savage reader, of course)?
Dan makes a great point that even if you are right in the situation, you are likely to get smacked by convention. Also, I probably don't really want to tell nice Dr. Schmaltzmann that I want black midgets coated in strawberry jam up my butt, as an example, let's say.
Dan makes a great point that even if you are right in the situation, you are likely to get smacked by convention. Also, I probably don't really want to tell nice Dr. Schmaltzmann that I want black midgets coated in strawberry jam up my butt, as an example, let's say.
21
I commend SBOOO for at least TRYING to be GGG about her husband's non-monogomous tendency. However, when she found that she can't stand him "cheating," she came to the wrong conclusion. Instead of saying "You should only sleep with me from now on because I don't want you to cheat," she should be saying "I'm terribly sorry that even though I thought I was open to the idea, *I* am not comfortable with it. Therefore, here is what *I* will do to solve the problem."
22
I think some people are being a little harsh on SBOOO - sometimes you think that something will work for you, and then you only find later that it won't. I'm polyamorous, and it turns out I don't like sex with multiple partners at the same time. This was a bit of a shock to learn.
HOWEVER, I totally agree that if someone has a specific sexual requirement (although I don't classify swinging as a fetish), it's good to find out if you can cope with said requirement (whether or not you participate) BEFORE you sign legal documents!
And he was an idiot as well, assuming that "willingness to try" = "absolutely fine with you having orgies forever". Also, his way of going "Ok, you don't want to? I'll be off shagging 600 people this evening, then. Don't wait up!" was less than classy. I don't think he should pretend to something he's not capable of, but at least making some efforts towards compromise ("OK, I'll attend an orgy once a month, on this date") would be somewhat better.
So, yeah, between biting off more than you can chew, and hubby seemingly not being capable of postponing his fun for 5 minutes and proposing potential win-win solutions, unless you can do some *serious* negotiation quickly, time to call it quits.
HOWEVER, I totally agree that if someone has a specific sexual requirement (although I don't classify swinging as a fetish), it's good to find out if you can cope with said requirement (whether or not you participate) BEFORE you sign legal documents!
And he was an idiot as well, assuming that "willingness to try" = "absolutely fine with you having orgies forever". Also, his way of going "Ok, you don't want to? I'll be off shagging 600 people this evening, then. Don't wait up!" was less than classy. I don't think he should pretend to something he's not capable of, but at least making some efforts towards compromise ("OK, I'll attend an orgy once a month, on this date") would be somewhat better.
So, yeah, between biting off more than you can chew, and hubby seemingly not being capable of postponing his fun for 5 minutes and proposing potential win-win solutions, unless you can do some *serious* negotiation quickly, time to call it quits.
23
The first LW was 100% wrong to not try swinging before marriage, but I can't come down on her like Dan does... Sometimes, even things I've done before and didn't bother me change as the relationship grows or changes (swinging was fine before marriage cause there wasn't such a huge commitment should one party take it too far... the risk of a break-up is not as daunting as the risk of a divorce.)
I'm with Trix on the point though that the husband doesn't seem that willing to compromise. Also, I got the impression that the LW isn't pissed off so much by the "cheating," but rather that his sexual life has an "outward trajectory." She also adds that the sex isn't "relationship centered."
Even you, Dan, say that in swinging, your primary partner should remain the focus. If he's busy running off to screw multiple different people without her, maybe she isn't getting her sexual needs met... and he doesn't seem to care. There's a difference between swinging and out and out sexual abandonment, right?
I'm with Trix on the point though that the husband doesn't seem that willing to compromise. Also, I got the impression that the LW isn't pissed off so much by the "cheating," but rather that his sexual life has an "outward trajectory." She also adds that the sex isn't "relationship centered."
Even you, Dan, say that in swinging, your primary partner should remain the focus. If he's busy running off to screw multiple different people without her, maybe she isn't getting her sexual needs met... and he doesn't seem to care. There's a difference between swinging and out and out sexual abandonment, right?
24
Lol, fraud in the inducement. Imagine if you did something like this in a business context. You could go to jail or be fined, but somehow it's acceptable in a relationship? I'm sure the marriage "counselors" would say so. Unbelievable.
Well, as the letter indicated, she never did any swinging while they were engaged, only after the fact. That's very suspicious. And quite frankly it's not a matter of her trying to be GGG, he was *honest* about who he was from the beginning. And then she decided, well gee, I guess I'm not really into that. The husband has been deceived and hopefully he won't be cleaned out in the divorce.
And a final point, it seems as though this idea of "relationship" has been reified into some entity that he has to sacrifice (bad) his identity to while she, the martyr, (which I don't value) is trying to hold on to something which shouldn't exist in the first place. Having sex with other people in this context does not make him non-"relationship centered". Hell, he got with her didn't he?
In any case, if SBOOO has even a modicum of integrity, she should do her husband a favor and divorce him.
Now.
Well, as the letter indicated, she never did any swinging while they were engaged, only after the fact. That's very suspicious. And quite frankly it's not a matter of her trying to be GGG, he was *honest* about who he was from the beginning. And then she decided, well gee, I guess I'm not really into that. The husband has been deceived and hopefully he won't be cleaned out in the divorce.
And a final point, it seems as though this idea of "relationship" has been reified into some entity that he has to sacrifice (bad) his identity to while she, the martyr, (which I don't value) is trying to hold on to something which shouldn't exist in the first place. Having sex with other people in this context does not make him non-"relationship centered". Hell, he got with her didn't he?
In any case, if SBOOO has even a modicum of integrity, she should do her husband a favor and divorce him.
Now.
25
LOADED: get her to milk your prostate. Not a lot of pleasure, unlike masturbation or intercourse, but relieves pressure!
26
Hey, Dan. Thanks for coming out in support of negotiated non-monogamy. Considering that you're the only sex advice professional that anyone gives a flying fuck about, now that Dr. Ruth doesn't make the talk-show circuit anymore, I hope that you'll have a good influence on the average public opinion on this and other topics.
Alternative positions on sexuality are, I hope, becoming normalized, especially among the below-40 crowd. I look forward to the day when everyone's harmless kinks and preferences are as uncontroversial as their choices of breakfast cereal.
Keep up the good work!
Alternative positions on sexuality are, I hope, becoming normalized, especially among the below-40 crowd. I look forward to the day when everyone's harmless kinks and preferences are as uncontroversial as their choices of breakfast cereal.
Keep up the good work!
27
I think the reality is that most people are not honest with themselves - as a culture kids are raised to think about what they want and not how they feel... SBOOO is a victim of this.. and yes, agreed... acceptance is the key to all her problems.
29
I feel bad for SBOOO but you were spot on Dan. If anything though, I would have suggested that she continue with counseling, but to try and find a counselor who specifically works w/ poly/swinger couples. What she should be able to see at the end is that her husband loves her, and he wouldn't have married her in the first place if he didn't want to be with her. The reason she doesn't like his activities is out of fear of abandonment, insecurities about herself, and a fear that her husband's love for her is less because he is physical with others. If she got a good therapist, she might even get to a place where SHE can enjoy others sexually, while feeling safe in their relationship.
Jealousy is a terrible green monster, and it can rear it's head in even the best of open relationships. The best thing is to work out the root of the jealousy, so they can move on and grow in their love.
Jealousy is a terrible green monster, and it can rear it's head in even the best of open relationships. The best thing is to work out the root of the jealousy, so they can move on and grow in their love.
30
Related to the infrequent ejaculation, Watch out. I have Prostatitis (inflammation of the prostate), and ejaculation a few times a week helps.
31
Dan, you really missed the boat on this one, maybe because of anger at the competition? You were too hard on SBOOO and completely left the husband of the hook. He did not have sex outside the relationship pre-marriage, so he was at least implying that it is not as important for him as he know claims. Also, she did make a good faith effort to accommodate him. Why is her making an effort to make the relationship work "negotiating in bad faith" while his refusal to accommodate her is being honest. She obviously want's to let him have sex outside the relationship, just not all the time and she also wants to be the primary, not a secondary partner. Why is that not legit? To me, it looks that he lied to himself and to her at least as much as she did, if not more. In the end, she should probably divorce him, but not because she lied, but because he's not doing anything for THEIR relationship.
32
Deceit of *any* type that changes after commitment is wrong. Admitting you don't like vegan restaurants or salsa could potentially be just as bad as incompatible sexuality.
There is absolutely no way SBOOO is being honest here. About the best spin that can be placed on it is that she was dishonest with herself, but not to him.
Being adult involves being honest about who you are, and entering into marriage is a commitment that should be taken seriously. If you haven't made 100% certain of something, try outside marriage until you're sure..
There is absolutely no way SBOOO is being honest here. About the best spin that can be placed on it is that she was dishonest with herself, but not to him.
Being adult involves being honest about who you are, and entering into marriage is a commitment that should be taken seriously. If you haven't made 100% certain of something, try outside marriage until you're sure..
33
Dan, you're being incredibly harsh and unfair to SBOOO. Yeah, you are. Sounds like she's made a good faith attempt to be GGG, and it just hasn't worked out for her. Her husband's not willing to negotiate or compromise now they're married - even though he was willing to wait until they got married before they went swinging. A husband who isn't interested in satisfying his wife sexually so long as his own sexual needs are being met, is a classic DTMFA target.
So, I think she should look for a divorce. DTMFA, SBOOO. San Davage is never going to be supportive about a wife who wants her husband to give her sexual satisfaction before he runs off to orgies of his own.
So, I think she should look for a divorce. DTMFA, SBOOO. San Davage is never going to be supportive about a wife who wants her husband to give her sexual satisfaction before he runs off to orgies of his own.
35
Advice to SBOOO was spot on, including calling her out for not being fully honest. Nice to see someone tell it to her like it is.
36
I'm with Trix, Marty and Frink. SBOOO gets to shoulder a lot of the blame here, but not all of it for all the reasons these posters outlined. Hubbie is rude and clueless. SBOOO had a change of heart (sometimes a kink isn't as much fun as you thought it would be) but getting married before investigating something so important is foolish of both of them.
However, I can't argue with the conclusion: divorce. These two are clearly not capable of sexually satisfying each other, and both seem unwilling to show some thought for the consequences of their actions. Time to file papers before a child gets dragged into this and complicates matters farther.
However, I can't argue with the conclusion: divorce. These two are clearly not capable of sexually satisfying each other, and both seem unwilling to show some thought for the consequences of their actions. Time to file papers before a child gets dragged into this and complicates matters farther.
38
Gee, if everyone knew exactly who they were and were always going to be, and exactly what they wanted and would always want, AND were able to totally communicate that to their potential partner, who also knew exactly who they were and were always going to be, and exactly what they wanted and would always want, AND were able to totally communicate that to their potential partner I bet there wouldn't be nasty breakups! But for most people that's not the case. Hopefully they can cut their losses, keep their mouths shut and quietly divide up the assets. Neither one is going to sound good in court.
39
Wow! I'm torn. I feel so bad for SBOOO, but she was stupid, and he was honest. Best they divorce now, before they procreate.
40
Gee, Dan, you really blasted SBOOO with both guns. I infer that you're trying to balance the advice she's getting from a counselor, but you're just making an educated guess about what the counselor said. You treat SBOOO as if she'd perpetrated a bait-and-switch, but that's unfair. Her deal was that she would try swinging. If she'd done it once or twice, you'd have a point, but she claims to have done it a dozen times.
You've made the husband out to be the victim, but that's nonsense. He agreed to the "she'll try it" deal. The issue is that they had no plan for what to do if she hated it. (You seem to presume that she knew she'd hate it, and basically call her a liar for claiming to be a free spirit, but there's only sketchy evidence for that. The fact that she tried it several times shows more openness than most women would have. It's possible that she was merely naive about what her limits would be.)
As you point out, they needed to resolve this before marriage. Not her: they! They didn't, so they are both to blame. Furthermore, before they were married was he faithful to her, cheating and lying, or openly fooling around? If it's anything but the last of these, he's to blame for allowing her to believe that he could be monogamous.
Although your apportioning of the blame is biased, your advice was sound. He doesn't just want multiple partners, he wants to swing, which means that even if she could give him carte blanche he wouldn't be happy because he'd want her to participate. They need to accept the pain of divorce now before there are children's lives to ruin.
You've made the husband out to be the victim, but that's nonsense. He agreed to the "she'll try it" deal. The issue is that they had no plan for what to do if she hated it. (You seem to presume that she knew she'd hate it, and basically call her a liar for claiming to be a free spirit, but there's only sketchy evidence for that. The fact that she tried it several times shows more openness than most women would have. It's possible that she was merely naive about what her limits would be.)
As you point out, they needed to resolve this before marriage. Not her: they! They didn't, so they are both to blame. Furthermore, before they were married was he faithful to her, cheating and lying, or openly fooling around? If it's anything but the last of these, he's to blame for allowing her to believe that he could be monogamous.
Although your apportioning of the blame is biased, your advice was sound. He doesn't just want multiple partners, he wants to swing, which means that even if she could give him carte blanche he wouldn't be happy because he'd want her to participate. They need to accept the pain of divorce now before there are children's lives to ruin.
41
Hmmm...am a little torn. Yes, Mrs. SBOOO should have known better than to marry someone sexually incompatible. But, Mr. SBOOO probably should have known, too. I'm thinking that Mr. SBOOO must have at least suspected that his wife was just not that into it, even before they got married. I don't actually see either one of them as the bad guy. They probably loved eachother, knew they weren't sexually compatible, but got married anyway. People do it all the time. They get married anyway, even though they know there's a major problem in some area (in this case sexually) of their relationship. Then, years later it finally surfaces and they have to admit they weren't really right for eachother in the first place. Love is blind.
42
@Storm, @Doktor: we've tried prostate milking, but we haven't had much luck; my wife isn't up for using her fingers (can't say I blame her), and although I enjoy the sensations with a dildo, we've never managed to produce any significant amount of fluid, even when I've been denied for quite a while. I put this in the original letter but Dan cut it down for length.
Is there a trick to prostate milking? Can it be done successfully without fingers? Seriously, pointers are appreciated.
Is there a trick to prostate milking? Can it be done successfully without fingers? Seriously, pointers are appreciated.
43
You are the BOMB and should tell SBOOOO again that she is the worse kind of woman. you don't marry someone who tells you the truth then try to change them. He did the right thing. The perfect thing. and she spat in his face about it. I hope he makes it out from under that manipulative shrew so he can find a nice poly gal to live happily ever after with. Bully for you Dan you are the Mann!!!
44
Dunno if it's any help to SBOOO, but I found going to a poly friendly counselor to be a huge help in my own wrestling with open relationship difficulties (I knew it was what I wanted, but jealousy can still be tough). A useful resource for me was "Polychromatic", which has state-by-state listings of various professionals, including therapists:
http://www.polychromatic.com/pfp/
http://www.polychromatic.com/pfp/
45
In regards to SBOOO: Her husband was a bit of an idiot as well for marrying a woman who said that she was open to the idea of swinging but didn't want to do any actual swinging until after they were married. The thought should have occurred to him that there was a definite possibility that once she tried it she might not actually like it. He should have been more persistent in her experimenting with swinging before they actually got married.
46
I don't necessarily agree with the advice give to sboo. Guess what....sometimes people's minds change. Just because her mind changed it doesn't make her a bad person. Yes, her husband made it blantantly clear that he needed to have sex outside the relationship before they were married so I understand that side of the argument. The point shouldn't be to assualt this woman verbally because she is now uncomfortable with the idea of her husband fucking other people. Relationships change, particularly after marriage. I know Dan might think those of us who aren't into open relationships are naive and somehow unevolved, but it is a natural human emotion to want to have your partner to yourself and the idea of them fucking someone else doesn't feel good to most. I also think it is very possible to find a therapist who will agree with the husband in this situation. Just because Dan thinks that most therapists are monogamy-centric, it doesn't mean they aren't logical human beings who can't understand that they had an agreement before they married.
47
No, no sympathy here for SBOOO. She's a total idiot and pulled the bait-and-switch on her husband. Let him go, SBOOO - he'll never be happy with you and you'll never be happy with him. I'm thinking the best thing that can come out of this for you is that he'll satisfy his desires elsewhere and just not tell you about it - that will be a real possibility if you force him into agreeing to monogamy. But hopefully, he'll get rid of you before it comes to that and put you out of your misery. I guess I do have some sympathy for you - I've screwed stuff up, too - but this is screw up is all on you, of fairly disasterous proportions. Super stupid to not explore poly-play BEFORE you marry a man who's been up front with you about it - and then to whine about you not being enough for him? Kind of amazingly stupid, really.
48
A little harsh on SBOOO Dan. I get people need tough love sometimes, but that seemed more like kicking a dolly when she's down.
Of course, if you were all moonbeams and unicorns and easy let downs we wouldn't enjoy reading you so much, now would we?
Of course, if you were all moonbeams and unicorns and easy let downs we wouldn't enjoy reading you so much, now would we?
49
Dan's right, SBOOO, you DID pick the wrong advice columnist. You picked one who used to be accepting of pretty much ALL sexual arrangements within a relationship, including monogamy, but is now a dogmatic, militantly pro-poly prick whose life has become a non-stop bitch-fest.
SBOOO did NOT deceive her husband before the marriage. She said she was willing to explore the open marriage thing, she came to a point where she felt comfortable actually giving it a go (sadly, after they got married), she gave it a fair shot (a dozen times!), and found (unexpectedly, it sounds from the tone of her letter), that she didn't like sharing.
A funny little thing about any sort of alternative sexuality you're thinking of trying: no matter how hot the IDEA of something may be IN YOUR HEAD, you don't know if you'll really like it or not until you ACTUALLY GO THERE. Dan, I'd think someone with your reputation as "Lord God of all Sexperts" would know this.
Personally, I'd like to try watersports sometime, THINKING that that warm liquid splashing on me would be a major turn-on. But, if I ACTUALLY WENT THERE, it could very easily turn out that, say, the degradation aspect, or simply the smell of piss all over me would wind up being a major turn-off. Did I act in bad faith telling the guy I'd be willing to try it? Of course not, because, like SBOOO, I TRULY DID want to try it.
SBOOO, ignore Dan's advice. You DID act in good faith. It sounds like you guys discussed it like rational adults, and you gave it a fair shot. However, it was probably dumb to go ahead with getting married without knowing for sure if you'd be into swinging or not. But maybe there were huge family pressures pushing you two into getting married; it happens.
And, sadly, Dan's right on this as well: we've got irreconcilable incompatibility here. :-(
More...
SBOOO did NOT deceive her husband before the marriage. She said she was willing to explore the open marriage thing, she came to a point where she felt comfortable actually giving it a go (sadly, after they got married), she gave it a fair shot (a dozen times!), and found (unexpectedly, it sounds from the tone of her letter), that she didn't like sharing.
A funny little thing about any sort of alternative sexuality you're thinking of trying: no matter how hot the IDEA of something may be IN YOUR HEAD, you don't know if you'll really like it or not until you ACTUALLY GO THERE. Dan, I'd think someone with your reputation as "Lord God of all Sexperts" would know this.
Personally, I'd like to try watersports sometime, THINKING that that warm liquid splashing on me would be a major turn-on. But, if I ACTUALLY WENT THERE, it could very easily turn out that, say, the degradation aspect, or simply the smell of piss all over me would wind up being a major turn-off. Did I act in bad faith telling the guy I'd be willing to try it? Of course not, because, like SBOOO, I TRULY DID want to try it.
SBOOO, ignore Dan's advice. You DID act in good faith. It sounds like you guys discussed it like rational adults, and you gave it a fair shot. However, it was probably dumb to go ahead with getting married without knowing for sure if you'd be into swinging or not. But maybe there were huge family pressures pushing you two into getting married; it happens.
And, sadly, Dan's right on this as well: we've got irreconcilable incompatibility here. :-(
50
I have to weigh in on the SBOOO topic from a professional side. As a Sex Therapist who WOULD advocate non-monogamy when appropriate (and I would suggest that any couple seeking help with questions of non-monogamy see a SEX therapist, as a opposed to a MARRIAGE counselor-- because sex therapists have people's good sexual health in mind, and marriage counselors MAY have people's long term marriages in mind) I would say that there are many factors to weigh in when considering dissolving a marriage. Dan, I know your column is about sex advice, and from a healthy sexuality perspective you came to the right conclusion, but when considering people's WHOLE personalities, etc. it may be a much harder decision to make (I.E. imagine if SBOOO were pregnant?)...so unfortunately these topics in real life have complicated outcomes and I would suggest this couple seek the professional services of a AASECT-certified sex therapist, and not your everyday sex columnist or marriage counselor.
53
Right on with SBOOO Dan.
I'm in a non-monogamous relationship myself and I thought I was in her shoes for a bit. But I had ONE calm discussion with my boyfriend and he helped me get out and dating other guys. And surprise, once I tried it, I found I liked it.
I now have three SPARE boys kicking around, none of them are quite as nice as my main boy, but they're cute. The big thing is that I tried it BEFORE I decided that the idea 'crushed' me. I still have some trouble occasionally but I've found some ways to help me because I know that I don't want monogamy right now either.
Anyhow, like we've all said SBOOO was a nail that you've hit right on the head. And you're just going to have to accept my praise, despite how much you hate it.
I'm in a non-monogamous relationship myself and I thought I was in her shoes for a bit. But I had ONE calm discussion with my boyfriend and he helped me get out and dating other guys. And surprise, once I tried it, I found I liked it.
I now have three SPARE boys kicking around, none of them are quite as nice as my main boy, but they're cute. The big thing is that I tried it BEFORE I decided that the idea 'crushed' me. I still have some trouble occasionally but I've found some ways to help me because I know that I don't want monogamy right now either.
Anyhow, like we've all said SBOOO was a nail that you've hit right on the head. And you're just going to have to accept my praise, despite how much you hate it.
54
Dan,
While you are right to assert that Sbooo is accountable for her own actions, but your outrage seems inconsistent.
You have received hundred of letters from people who have fallen out of love and/or cheated on their spouse.
Many of the writers entered in marriage thinking they could "settle down" or that they had married their "soul mate."
While Sboo is at fault, she did try to swing with multiple partners and it wasn't what she expected.
How many us have found marriage something other than we hoped?
Those of use, myself included, are equally at fault. We made irrational decisions based on love or lust and we too are accountable.
I guess we are idiots, too, but you have never let us have it as you did with Sboo.
While you are right to assert that Sbooo is accountable for her own actions, but your outrage seems inconsistent.
You have received hundred of letters from people who have fallen out of love and/or cheated on their spouse.
Many of the writers entered in marriage thinking they could "settle down" or that they had married their "soul mate."
While Sboo is at fault, she did try to swing with multiple partners and it wasn't what she expected.
How many us have found marriage something other than we hoped?
Those of use, myself included, are equally at fault. We made irrational decisions based on love or lust and we too are accountable.
I guess we are idiots, too, but you have never let us have it as you did with Sboo.
55
Just to point out, to the sboo-supporting folks... She wrote "I wanted to spend my limited free time with him instead of _exploring_ our sexuality with multiple partners." She's the one who needed to "explore" while he was already into it. And she delayed "exploring" until they were married. Big. Mistake. And why? Because it would have been too stressful? I smell an excuse here... Not to say there aren't jobs that require too much of your free time, but it obviously didn't preclude her from having _some_ kind of sex.
But while the wrath on her is deserved, her hubby should take some responsibility. What they did was "wait until marriage." Whether it's straight sex or their kinky lifestyle, they're realizing what so many Christian couples discover that they're not compatible. But why all the drama? It's only been a year, write it off as a Starter Marriage & move on....
But while the wrath on her is deserved, her hubby should take some responsibility. What they did was "wait until marriage." Whether it's straight sex or their kinky lifestyle, they're realizing what so many Christian couples discover that they're not compatible. But why all the drama? It's only been a year, write it off as a Starter Marriage & move on....
56
Dan Savage is back in the HAUS!!!!!!
PLEASE PLEASE PU-LEAZE keep this up, minimize the politics and other antics, and give us more of this!!!!!!
PLEASE PLEASE PU-LEAZE keep this up, minimize the politics and other antics, and give us more of this!!!!!!
57
OK....Granted, I dont have the equipment at my disposal every minute of every day per se....but my ex-husband claims that when he masturbated, he held the base of his cock so that he would feel the orgasm, yet not release any 'messy' stuff....(this is not the reason i divorced him by the way...) Dont other men do that at all?
58
@doulas1: the point of orgasm denial isn't to avoid making a mess, it's to subjugate the male's desire for orgasm to his partner's will. For men who enjoy this sort of thing, it's fun to be near-constantly aroused but denied the release of orgasm until their partner chooses (rarely) to grant it.
Fully experiencing and enjoying an orgasm that just happened to not make a mess would undermine the experience.
Fully experiencing and enjoying an orgasm that just happened to not make a mess would undermine the experience.
59
@doulas1 That's called retrograde ejaculation. It's categorized as a type of ruined orgasm, which are commonly used in orgasm denial situations. It's a less common technique than thumbing, holding the thumb over the urethra when the man is about to ejaculate.
60
Damn Dan that answer was white hot. I mean scorching because that is how most sista's think. It's a kind of verbal castration that they use. And she is going to blow it in the wrong direction because judging by the tone of her letter she assumed that she was 100% correct in writing you, and when she found out she was wrong that is a deal breaker for her 2
61
While I am not debating whether SBOOO seems dishonest or unintelligent, I think putting all the blame on her is unfair. The husband, knowing she was unexperienced with swinging, polygamy, or what have you, married her. How brilliant a decision does that sound for anyone who takes marriage and divorce seriously?
62
Dan's answer to SBOO is laughable, laughable horseshit.
BOTH partners got motherfucking MARRIED before they started swinging, even though one said it's basically a necessity, and the other said she'd "explore" it. how are they both not at fault, unless you're Dan Savage?
You never, ever get married with a huge question mark like that left unresolved. They both jumped in. It sounds like they were both in love and felt that the accomodating/negotiating process would make everybody happy in the event of a problem, because -- hey, they're both open, sexually adventurous, knowledgeable people. WRONG.
SBOO, if you read this, it's important to know that you don't carry all the blame for what looks like irreconciliable differences. He married you, too, knowing you'd never been non-monogamous. I think it's a really a good faith misunderstanding, but there's actually room in this for the husband to be the bad guy too.
How? Well, he mentions swinging upfront, so he's got "full disclosure" covered, but he waits until this woman is married to him, and, when it obviously, painfully doesn't work for her, he pushes it anyway -- because he was open about it in the beginning. Yeah, and she was open, too. She was willing to "explore" it not knowing how much she'd like it. Now this guy is so clueless that he's manipulating permission out of her to go to a swingers party the same night they talk about it. Really.
But somehow, he shoulders no conceivable blame -- ALL because he discllosed his kink upfront. I call bullshit. That doesn't absolve him, he just wants that to absolve him. And Dan totally fell for it, because Dan is a stupid piece of shit.
Either way, it's a divorce.
BOTH partners got motherfucking MARRIED before they started swinging, even though one said it's basically a necessity, and the other said she'd "explore" it. how are they both not at fault, unless you're Dan Savage?
You never, ever get married with a huge question mark like that left unresolved. They both jumped in. It sounds like they were both in love and felt that the accomodating/negotiating process would make everybody happy in the event of a problem, because -- hey, they're both open, sexually adventurous, knowledgeable people. WRONG.
SBOO, if you read this, it's important to know that you don't carry all the blame for what looks like irreconciliable differences. He married you, too, knowing you'd never been non-monogamous. I think it's a really a good faith misunderstanding, but there's actually room in this for the husband to be the bad guy too.
How? Well, he mentions swinging upfront, so he's got "full disclosure" covered, but he waits until this woman is married to him, and, when it obviously, painfully doesn't work for her, he pushes it anyway -- because he was open about it in the beginning. Yeah, and she was open, too. She was willing to "explore" it not knowing how much she'd like it. Now this guy is so clueless that he's manipulating permission out of her to go to a swingers party the same night they talk about it. Really.
But somehow, he shoulders no conceivable blame -- ALL because he discllosed his kink upfront. I call bullshit. That doesn't absolve him, he just wants that to absolve him. And Dan totally fell for it, because Dan is a stupid piece of shit.
Either way, it's a divorce.
63
And reading SBOO again, she considered the sex "experimental" while obviously considered it essential in the long term. She's at fault, because even in this letter, she really doesn't get that, and, well, that does come across as self-centered and clueless, that she kept blithely assuming it wasn't essential to him -- "experiments" are by definition not proven as essential -- even though he made a point of saying otherwise.
BUT -- he married her before this sorted out. The blame is mutual. End of story.
BUT -- he married her before this sorted out. The blame is mutual. End of story.
64
To SBOO's husband: DTMFA, and whatever you do, DO NOT HAVE A KID WITH THIS WOMAN. Matters will only be made worse if you do. Next time, make sure she goes on a swinging test drive before committing yourself.
65
Right on, Dan. I'm sure the killer work schedule didn't preclude her from planning a massive wedding.
Of course, about ten or fifteen years into her second marriage, SBOOB will probably love the idea of swinging when her hubby comes down with ED.
Both barrels? She deserved a Gatling gun.
Of course, about ten or fifteen years into her second marriage, SBOOB will probably love the idea of swinging when her hubby comes down with ED.
Both barrels? She deserved a Gatling gun.
66
Look, I'm starting to think this whole prostate-milking thing is an urban kink-legend. Someone set me straight and tell me how it's done!
67
Good lord, how long were SBOO and her husband dating before they got married? And he wasn't swinging during that time? I agree, he's just as at fault here. My guess is they're both young and will have learned from this experience. Your life before marriage should look as much as possible like your life after marriage, or else you really don't know the person you're about to get hitched to.
68
Yes, she should have known herself better, and yes, he should have been more sensitive to her and paid more attention to this very key issue himself, if it was a deal-breaker for him. They were both idealistic. Probably because they were in love.
It is too bad that society will tend to make him out to be the bad guy. But I don't think either of them were honest enough about this issue.
I have never met anyone who was completely self-aware and self-honest, to the point that issues did not come up. Is the point here to find out who is to blame? Or what to do now?
I'm a woman who tends to be basically monogamous in a relationship with a man who has always been clear he is polyamorous. I knew it would not be easy for me, I knew I would get jealous, but I didn't really know how I would feel. Sometimes it's been excruciating. Sometimes I have considered leaving, and so has he.
Neither of us knew if this could work going in, but we decided to do it anyway.
But we have been together for several years now, and it is, for the most part, wonderful. He has two other partners, who are my closest friends. I still feel jealous sometimes, and have decided to stay with it, partly because this is an opportunity to grow in my own tendencies to feel threatened.
So, I don't think there is enough information to give a pat answer like "divorce". It's possible this could be worked out, but I don't think a typical divorce counselor will be very open about poly. There is some social wisdom in the poly community about this, and there are people who do it.
It is too bad that society will tend to make him out to be the bad guy. But I don't think either of them were honest enough about this issue.
I have never met anyone who was completely self-aware and self-honest, to the point that issues did not come up. Is the point here to find out who is to blame? Or what to do now?
I'm a woman who tends to be basically monogamous in a relationship with a man who has always been clear he is polyamorous. I knew it would not be easy for me, I knew I would get jealous, but I didn't really know how I would feel. Sometimes it's been excruciating. Sometimes I have considered leaving, and so has he.
Neither of us knew if this could work going in, but we decided to do it anyway.
But we have been together for several years now, and it is, for the most part, wonderful. He has two other partners, who are my closest friends. I still feel jealous sometimes, and have decided to stay with it, partly because this is an opportunity to grow in my own tendencies to feel threatened.
So, I don't think there is enough information to give a pat answer like "divorce". It's possible this could be worked out, but I don't think a typical divorce counselor will be very open about poly. There is some social wisdom in the poly community about this, and there are people who do it.
69
SBOOO-hoo
Been through this myself, but fortunately didn't get married before the crisis. Lies is lies.
I think your 99.99% of marriage counselors figure is high. We tried it. She selected the counselor (female) and got told off.
Been through this myself, but fortunately didn't get married before the crisis. Lies is lies.
I think your 99.99% of marriage counselors figure is high. We tried it. She selected the counselor (female) and got told off.
70
LOADED, milking the prostate is NOT a myth. We use it in medicine to obtain semen samples, and in animal breeding it's used to get bull semen (although they use e-stim). Some men are quick about it and will ejaculate as soon as you enter them with a (gloved) finger. Others require a little work at it. Just like masturbation. How is it done? You stimulate the prostate and the easiest way to get to it is thru the back door. This can be done with a finger or a dildo of some kind. It's the walnut sized/shaped lump you can feel in someones butt. Just about at the tip of a finger. This is why anal sex for men is so much fun. It's often referred to as the buzz button. You and your wife should try it, but without alot of pressure or expectation at first. Read up on anal sex to get an idea of the do's and don't's involved. She could also consider pegging as the only way you get to cum.
71
OK, so every word Dan said to SBOOO was true, but....
Could he maybe have waited, oh, a day, before heading out to a sex party after his wife gave him the green light? I mean, could he at least pretend to give a shit about her feelings, unreasonable though they may be? I'm wondering if this might have something to do with her crushed feeling and all.
Could he maybe have waited, oh, a day, before heading out to a sex party after his wife gave him the green light? I mean, could he at least pretend to give a shit about her feelings, unreasonable though they may be? I'm wondering if this might have something to do with her crushed feeling and all.
72
Regarding SBOOO: I agree that *some* compassion is in order. I just do not think one should assume that she was being manipulative in the hope of "converting" her husband to a monogamous lifestyle. That *may* have been her intention, but she *could* have genuinely thought that she would be able to be GGG for swinging. Maybe she was naive or stupid, but that is not the same thing as being deliberately deceptive.
However, in the end, I do have to agree with the substance (if not the tone) of Dan's advice to SBOOO. It really would have been best to give the swinging a try before marriage (work stress not being a very good reason to postpone it since work can almost always be a source of stress.)
Also: I did a Google search for "saddlebacking" and the first two links that pop up are for that church, not our term. So let's keep clicking away at the sites that define it our way ;-)
However, in the end, I do have to agree with the substance (if not the tone) of Dan's advice to SBOOO. It really would have been best to give the swinging a try before marriage (work stress not being a very good reason to postpone it since work can almost always be a source of stress.)
Also: I did a Google search for "saddlebacking" and the first two links that pop up are for that church, not our term. So let's keep clicking away at the sites that define it our way ;-)
73
Like Danielle, I am a kink and poly friendly therapist -- both a couples/marriage therapist and a sex therapist. I'll echo Danielle's suggestion to look into finding a sex therapist. Be careful though -- many people who claim to practice sex therapy have little to no formal training in the subject.
I suggest using the AASECT (American Association of Sex Educators, Counselors, and Therapists) website to find a certified sex therapist who is well trained and comfortable working with poly and kink related issues (website: www.aasect.org -> for the public -> find a professional).
To SBOOO: My personal (not professional) take on your situation is that Dan is correct insofar as your husband is unlikely to change, and it's unfair to expect him to do so given his honesty up front. Thus, you are left with a choice of learning to cope with this part of your relationship or pursuing separation/divorce.
That said, you may find that you can work through the negative feelings you are having about this situation. I wish I could send you an unpublished article that I came across that gets into some of the nitty-gritty of jealousy in poly relationships. Suffice to say that you are either knowingly or unknowingly buying into a lot of cultural myths about love and sex, and these may be at the root of your feelings.
I suggest using the AASECT (American Association of Sex Educators, Counselors, and Therapists) website to find a certified sex therapist who is well trained and comfortable working with poly and kink related issues (website: www.aasect.org -> for the public -> find a professional).
To SBOOO: My personal (not professional) take on your situation is that Dan is correct insofar as your husband is unlikely to change, and it's unfair to expect him to do so given his honesty up front. Thus, you are left with a choice of learning to cope with this part of your relationship or pursuing separation/divorce.
That said, you may find that you can work through the negative feelings you are having about this situation. I wish I could send you an unpublished article that I came across that gets into some of the nitty-gritty of jealousy in poly relationships. Suffice to say that you are either knowingly or unknowingly buying into a lot of cultural myths about love and sex, and these may be at the root of your feelings.
74
@bigbear I know some guys can hit orgasm (and ejaculate) from anal stimulation, but I thought prostate milking was where prostate stimulation produces semen *without* the usual orgasm and ejaculation experience? I read that the cock can even be iced or restrained for the duration to prevent erection and climax?
That's what we're going for, anyway. As I mentioned upthread, we've tried this a few times without any luck. My wife uses an Aneros on me like a dildo, and we've kept this up for 15 mins or so at a time, but never produced more than a few drops of what looks like pre-cum.
If I could ask a naive question for a moment... does gay anal sex always produce semen even before / without the receiver actually climaxing? If not, what do you do differently, beyond the straightforward in-and-out, if you're going for "prostate milking"? Harder? Softer? Different angle? Different tool? What's the deal?
That's what we're going for, anyway. As I mentioned upthread, we've tried this a few times without any luck. My wife uses an Aneros on me like a dildo, and we've kept this up for 15 mins or so at a time, but never produced more than a few drops of what looks like pre-cum.
If I could ask a naive question for a moment... does gay anal sex always produce semen even before / without the receiver actually climaxing? If not, what do you do differently, beyond the straightforward in-and-out, if you're going for "prostate milking"? Harder? Softer? Different angle? Different tool? What's the deal?
75
mjd has a point. Give it a second will ya. Maybe this guy didn't give a rat's ass about his wife's feelings. I know many of you, Dan, included hold this champion up like Jordan himself. However there is a little devil on my shoulder whispering maybe this guy got off on his poser wife's disgruntled attempts to swing. DICK
76
Marriage, the long train in and out of many dark tunnels.
And don't let anybody tell you other wise.
Thanks Dan.
And don't let anybody tell you other wise.
Thanks Dan.
77
Bigbear, I think you're confusing prostate milking with a prostate orgasm... the idea behind prostate milking is that there is no orgasm. Unlike pegging.
78
I love the whole surreality of the prostate milking thing weaving in and out of the serious relationships texts. Like that beat the beaver game with the pop up heads.
One thing I don't get is SBO3's husbands viewpoint actually. We swing and we do so because I am incredibly hot for my wife and I want to see her in action. She's basically my personal pocket pornstar but for obvious reasons she doesn't want to make movies, so we go about it this way. It would be inconceivable for us to "swing" apart; it appears totally to miss the point for me. We swing for each other. The others involved are props. "Swinging" apart looks more to me like, well, adultery, i.e. just going and fucking other people. It's not swinging.
I am baffled by him running out to an orgy on his own. This looks like he just wants to have a lot of random sex (hooray for that, BTW). But then why get married?
One thing I don't get is SBO3's husbands viewpoint actually. We swing and we do so because I am incredibly hot for my wife and I want to see her in action. She's basically my personal pocket pornstar but for obvious reasons she doesn't want to make movies, so we go about it this way. It would be inconceivable for us to "swing" apart; it appears totally to miss the point for me. We swing for each other. The others involved are props. "Swinging" apart looks more to me like, well, adultery, i.e. just going and fucking other people. It's not swinging.
I am baffled by him running out to an orgy on his own. This looks like he just wants to have a lot of random sex (hooray for that, BTW). But then why get married?
79
@LOADED
Ruined orgasms are very effective. Thumbing is very frustrating, as my GF mentioned. So is edging till you dribble. The goal there is to prevent spurting.
Ruined orgasms are very effective. Thumbing is very frustrating, as my GF mentioned. So is edging till you dribble. The goal there is to prevent spurting.
80
Just wondering, how old are SBOOO and her soon-to-be-ex? I can much more easily imagine a 21 y.o. honestly miscalculating. To paraphrase some a judge once told me, "I find it hard to see a 35 year old as a misguided youth."
81
I agree 100% with the advice to SBOO, but I'd add "Divorce. Get it over with, and do your best not to make him feel shittier through the process than he already will. Don't parade his kink before your family and friends: his kink isn't the problem. The problem in your marriage is your willingness to misrepresent your own feelings for the sake of 'civility'."
82
To LOADED: it is very clear that you want to come. So do! Fuck her and her neediness - all she is thinking about is her sorry ass that is somehow not getting enough attention. And guess what? She never will. She is using your submissiveness selfishly. Fuck her and her manipulating games. Come when you want to.
83
Wait, LOADED only leaks pre-cum when aroused after "several weeks" of orgasm denial? Don't most people "leak" when they're aroused most of the time (and I'm not talking about getting a random stiffy when a hottie walks by you on the street). Isn't that the whole point of pre-cum, to aid in lubrication for sex? Shouldn't he be doing it every session?
84
@cumster this is definitely my kink, not hers; I *want* to be denied. It's a little hard to explain why. Ask Numb-Dicked Dude.
@tora, Dan edited this part a little inexplicably. My original letter said that when in denial, I leak precum "even when only moderately aroused". So, basically, at the drop of a hat. I *always* leak precum when I get good and turned on, denial or no denial.
@tora, Dan edited this part a little inexplicably. My original letter said that when in denial, I leak precum "even when only moderately aroused". So, basically, at the drop of a hat. I *always* leak precum when I get good and turned on, denial or no denial.
85
Oy. I would give SBOOO the benefit of the doubt, just a little. It seems quite possible to me that she was, in fact, open to the idea but learned with experience that she didn't like it. In which case, the verdict is the same: his needs are stated, they aren't compatible, it should end.
If on the other hand she *did* know in advance that she preferred/needed monogamy, then she's a lying sack as Dan suggested. But I'll give her the benefit of the doubt on that until proven otherwise.
On the other hand, hubby's an idiot. Why on earth did he marry her on the promise of "we'll explore your needs later to see if I can handle them?" You need to figure that shit out before you tie the knot, and that goes as much for him as for her.
If on the other hand she *did* know in advance that she preferred/needed monogamy, then she's a lying sack as Dan suggested. But I'll give her the benefit of the doubt on that until proven otherwise.
On the other hand, hubby's an idiot. Why on earth did he marry her on the promise of "we'll explore your needs later to see if I can handle them?" You need to figure that shit out before you tie the knot, and that goes as much for him as for her.
86
SBOO is a sick person, saying she was too busy at work to experiment is such a mindfuckingly obvious lie it makes me sick. She lies to her husband, lies to you in her letter, and probably lies to everyone she knows to get her way. Thank you so much Dan for probably being the first person in her life to not coddle her perpetual victim fetish
87
I would love to hear a response from SBOOO's husband. Two sides to every story - and her's is on his side. I bet he's got stories to tell....
88
Dan do you agree that if you have a non negotiable kink that maybe you hold some responsibility for exploring it with a partner before you marry them? SBOO TOLD his partner before they got married that he wanted an open relationship; but he didn't EXPLORE it with her.
She made an attempt it didn't work. That's why you have to explore you kinks before you do something as serious as marriage.
Honestly with your heavy blame on the woman for trying to "trick" a man into marriage you sound a bit like a 1950's Superman Comic. Don't be a dick.
She made an attempt it didn't work. That's why you have to explore you kinks before you do something as serious as marriage.
Honestly with your heavy blame on the woman for trying to "trick" a man into marriage you sound a bit like a 1950's Superman Comic. Don't be a dick.
89
Ahh the more I think about this the madder it makes me. Not only have you played to thoroughly outdated ideas about marriage but you’ve also played to Mad Men era ideas about sex. That the woman is responsible for it. It SBOO responsibility to make sure she’s compatible to her husband’s kink. Not his responsibility to make sure she is. He didn’t insist on a dry run. He didn’t make it a condition of marriage. Fuck him. They where both irresponsible, yet you lay all the blame on the woman. Get out your head out of the post war era sex relations.
90
Oh, we went even further than SBOOO. We agreed to an open relationship, my wife found a lover who she enjoyed regularly for about 2 years. I had a little more trouble finding a willing outside playmate. Just about the time her relationship petered out I finally found someone, and now that I have a "friend" and she does not, all of a sudden she is not comfortable with this sort of relationship.
91
Poor sbooo's husband. The man comes into marriage honestly, up front and respectful and no matter what, he's going to be the bad guy.
His wife (sbooo) is a lying, skeeball. I have almost no sympathy for her. I hope I never marry a liar like her.
Perhaps I sound harsh, but marriage and divorce aren't trivial things. To take what he said so glibly and just go along simply to get married is a terrible thing to do. Of course, she being the woman will have all the sympathy of the world even though she screwed him. If I were a woman, I'd be ashamed of being a member of the same sex as this liar. Of course, I have rapists in my ranks so I have nothing to be all that proud of, but sheesh! What a bitch!
His wife (sbooo) is a lying, skeeball. I have almost no sympathy for her. I hope I never marry a liar like her.
Perhaps I sound harsh, but marriage and divorce aren't trivial things. To take what he said so glibly and just go along simply to get married is a terrible thing to do. Of course, she being the woman will have all the sympathy of the world even though she screwed him. If I were a woman, I'd be ashamed of being a member of the same sex as this liar. Of course, I have rapists in my ranks so I have nothing to be all that proud of, but sheesh! What a bitch!
92
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As mentioned above, you should make sure gloves are used. Have fun, and enjoy!
93
Yeah, okay, after reading some of the comments, I concur that sbooo's husband was something of an idiot and is somewhat responsible for this mess, but, seriously, he's the one who's going to the real victim here (by society's closemindedness). I'd call the split about 80% her fault and 20% his fault (maybe 30%). He's an idiot too. She's still a bitch.
Yep, he was a callous prick about the whole thing too, but he's a man, and we know (at least I do) how men are. Heck, he sounds like me... :)
Yep, he was a callous prick about the whole thing too, but he's a man, and we know (at least I do) how men are. Heck, he sounds like me... :)
95
SBOOO's husband could not have been any clearer about his sexual wants and practices. Just another example of how denial always comes back to bite you in the ass.
96
Way too harsh on SBOOO.
Sure she should have tried it but he should have insisted. Even once before they got married would have been enough. That it didn't happen is both their responsibilities.
Pretty hateful feedback all round considering two people are now going to have to divorce. The gleeful schadenfreude in response has caused me to lose a lot of respect for this usually engaging and informative column and some of the people who respond to it.
So much for tolerance, wisdom and respect.
Sure she should have tried it but he should have insisted. Even once before they got married would have been enough. That it didn't happen is both their responsibilities.
Pretty hateful feedback all round considering two people are now going to have to divorce. The gleeful schadenfreude in response has caused me to lose a lot of respect for this usually engaging and informative column and some of the people who respond to it.
So much for tolerance, wisdom and respect.
98
Meghan, oolongtea: yeah, that's kinda what I thought. He married her without making her demonstrate that she was ok with it. He took her "I'm too busy, whaa" at face value. Dumb! People are rarely too busy to do the stuff that's central to their happiness and fulfillment. People are often too busy to do stuff that they don't actually want to do.
But hey, they loved each other, and we all know that love is the deep, prolific spring at the source of that one river in Egypt.
But hey, they loved each other, and we all know that love is the deep, prolific spring at the source of that one river in Egypt.
99
Jesus, Dan, maybe she deceived him and herself, and then again maybe she just discovered her own preferences.
Sounds like she was GGG at first.
I re-read the letter and couldn't find positive evidence of deceit or of waiting specifically after getting married, then deliberately *deciding* to change and spring the surprise.
If she's someone for whom monogamy works, I'd say that tolerance allows her as much sexual freedom as anyone.
It can't be with that particular husband, but differences happen.
Sounds like she was GGG at first.
I re-read the letter and couldn't find positive evidence of deceit or of waiting specifically after getting married, then deliberately *deciding* to change and spring the surprise.
If she's someone for whom monogamy works, I'd say that tolerance allows her as much sexual freedom as anyone.
It can't be with that particular husband, but differences happen.
100
Way too hard on SBOOO. She tried. I'd get engaged before swinging too, to make sure I wasn't just a ticket to a swing party (lots of them don't allow single men). He said, "I'm not monogamous." So what? It's not a get out of jail free card - what else did he say? "I never felt like this about anybody before"? Maybe he led her to believe he'd change.
101
While I don't disagree with your advice, Dan, to be fair to SBOOO, she was willing to experiment. She just didn't like it. A dozen is a pretty fair trial.
Also to be fair, the guy married her, too, without "making sure" that swinging would work for them as a couple.
Also to be fair, the guy married her, too, without "making sure" that swinging would work for them as a couple.
102
Being an open-minded, tolerant, liberal person does not mean that you have to accept anything, within the confines of your own relationship, that personally offends you. Get it? That means it's a-o.k. to break up with a guy you're dating because you don't like his fascination with golden showers, his foot fetish, his closet cross-dressing, his love of gay porn, or, in this case, his desire to have sex outside the relationship. As a matter of fact, you are totally un-hip and pathetically uncool if you force yourself to remain in a relationship where you have to put up with something that completely turns you off. You are also a jerk if you pass unwarranted judgment on adults who engage in consensual relationships that don't appeal to your tastes, but that doesn't mean you have to jump into bed with those folks to prove just how progressive you are!
My point is that SBOOO should take pride in her individual sexual preference and identity (which is monogamous heterosexual), find a compatible sexual partner, and not feel guilty about it! The only regrettable thing is that SBOOO married her husband before she tested their sexual compatibility. So she made a mistake by marrying a guy she isn't compatible with. And her husband made a mistake by failing to test the waters before marriage. It sounds like they followed their hearts and not their heads, and engaged in a whole hell of a lot of wishful thinking.
Well, they both messed up, and placing blame doesn't do much good at this juncture. It doesn't sound like they have any kids, so parting shouldn't be too horribly protracted. They need to shake hands and go their separate ways armed with the knowledge that's it's not only o.k., but necessary, to demand sexual compatibility, even for fans of traditional monogamy and the missionary position! SBOO will be a million times happier married to a monogamous guy, and her current husband will be loving it when he's out swinging with his new wife instead of leaving her at home to sulk.
More...
My point is that SBOOO should take pride in her individual sexual preference and identity (which is monogamous heterosexual), find a compatible sexual partner, and not feel guilty about it! The only regrettable thing is that SBOOO married her husband before she tested their sexual compatibility. So she made a mistake by marrying a guy she isn't compatible with. And her husband made a mistake by failing to test the waters before marriage. It sounds like they followed their hearts and not their heads, and engaged in a whole hell of a lot of wishful thinking.
Well, they both messed up, and placing blame doesn't do much good at this juncture. It doesn't sound like they have any kids, so parting shouldn't be too horribly protracted. They need to shake hands and go their separate ways armed with the knowledge that's it's not only o.k., but necessary, to demand sexual compatibility, even for fans of traditional monogamy and the missionary position! SBOO will be a million times happier married to a monogamous guy, and her current husband will be loving it when he's out swinging with his new wife instead of leaving her at home to sulk.
103
I do feel bad for SBOO's husband, he will probably have to deal with being seen as the bad guy for her lack of insight. And one should point out that it was 'experimentation' on her part only, and not on his. Like Dan said, she should have done her exploring before getting into marriage.
104
Looked up the cb 6000... thanks for once again opening my eyes to another beautiful facet of human sexuality!
105
unfortunately, most get married either too soon, or with too little forethought. I suspect that in this case she knew nonmonagamy was not for her, but admitting that to either her fiance or to herself would have stopped the wedding. To her credit, it sounds like she tried it for his sake, and a dozen times is not a little effort. However, she knew and agreed to this repeatedly. I have difficulty having a lot of sympathy here.
If, like many, this is a goal oriented relationship, (as in; her goal is to have the wedding, snare the man and the living marriage be damned) then anything like this would jeopardize the goal. I had a five year long relationship that moved in a similar way, I was honest about my needs, she accepted this until it came up, then she could not handle it. It is sad, but we have a duty to be honest about such things.
If, like many, this is a goal oriented relationship, (as in; her goal is to have the wedding, snare the man and the living marriage be damned) then anything like this would jeopardize the goal. I had a five year long relationship that moved in a similar way, I was honest about my needs, she accepted this until it came up, then she could not handle it. It is sad, but we have a duty to be honest about such things.
106
Why did the SBOOO's husband marry her? She said she'd explore swinging, not commit to it. Seems to me that she has explored it. And any woman with a rape fantasy will tell you, what's good in your head might not be good in real life. SO she thought swinging would be good and it turned out it wasn't: not her fault. BUT, why would a guy to whom this is so important marry a woman who hasn't even tried it out? I'm a sub and I know it, and I wouldn't wait until after the wedding to be dominated. If for some reason I had to put it off, I'd wait to get married. If this is such a big deal for him then he should have made sure he knew exactly what cards were in her hand before he proposed. It seems to me that they were both honest, but that she underestimated the level of importance this held for him, and he overestimated the level of commitment in the words "explore" and "experiment".
Maybe they can make it work, MAYBE, but they need a marriage counselor who knows up front that they want to find a way for HER to be okay with HIS swinging, not to just change him.
Maybe they can make it work, MAYBE, but they need a marriage counselor who knows up front that they want to find a way for HER to be okay with HIS swinging, not to just change him.
107
One reason Dan was so harsh with SBOO is in the first line in his second paragraph. No Marriage Counselor I can imagine (except maybe in the weirdest of California) is going to be on the guy's side. So Dan's making up for the leventeen couselors SBOO is going to dial up to bolster her case by coming down on her HARD (sic). While I winced once or twice while reading it, I can not say Dan's advice OR his tone was anywhere but bullseye. Please. "My career kept me too busy to test-drive - even once, even one evening, even TWO HOURS - the one deal breaker my Fiance, Future Husband, Soul Mate and Till-Death-Do-Us-Part-Guy had." Honesty has to be part of any lasting relationship, let alone a marriage. She was not honest with him, and if she's telling the truth about thinking she'd be GGG, not honest with herself. And, like all the realists here, I think she's not being honest (yes, LYING) to us in her story. She thought she could change him. (Gee, we NEVER hear that from a bride-to-be, do we?)
Dan - once again - rocks.
Dan - once again - rocks.
108
The biggest problem I have with this letter is that SBOOO gives no details except that the night they discussed him going elsewhere for sex, he offered to go to a stripclub. Does no one see this story as incredibly manipulative and designed to place SBOOO in the best light possible? She only mentioned that action to twist the knife and somehow make it seem like her husband is a jerk.
I can't believe the readers are harping on that detail... we don't know the entirety of the conversation yet people are up in arms about how insensitive the husband is. That's exactly how SBOOO wants you to react! Why else include that little tidbit?
Wake up, people, and see this letter for the self-serving, self-pitying bullshit it is.
I can't believe the readers are harping on that detail... we don't know the entirety of the conversation yet people are up in arms about how insensitive the husband is. That's exactly how SBOOO wants you to react! Why else include that little tidbit?
Wake up, people, and see this letter for the self-serving, self-pitying bullshit it is.
109
Your response to SBOOO-hoohoo was right on. If anything, you went easy on her. Women think they can CHANGE a man by marrying him. When will they learn!
110
Well, it looks like the consensus among Savage Love readers is that your advice to SBOOO was spot on. I have to agree and no amount of terseness should be spared in dumping her problems right where they belong in her lap. There are men out there who aspire to monogamy, tho probably rare (95% of mammals are NOT monogamous by nature). When a guy tells you upfront that he enjoys variety - he is being honest. To lie to him about accepting that and later moaning that you don't like it is just plain dishonest and idiotic.
111
thanks, dan! i'm poly myself, and i always appreciate when someone vocally sticks up for poly people. especially someone as widely read and trusted as dan savage.
i almost never disagree with you!
why the heck would you marry someone that you don't really KNOW you're compatible with? if you were a straight man, would you marry a lesbian? what if you were best friends and you really loved each other?
i almost never disagree with you!
why the heck would you marry someone that you don't really KNOW you're compatible with? if you were a straight man, would you marry a lesbian? what if you were best friends and you really loved each other?
112
your advice to sbooo was ok but incomplete. he has obligations too. this entire marraige isn't about him fulfilling his sexual desires. i think that divorce is not the only option, and that they should examine this "outward trajectory" thing. if he is ONLY interested in sex with other people and not with her, that's not ok either. if he is making an honest effort to please her as well as please himself, and she is making an honest effort to accept his sex with other people, then maybe it could work. i think at this point neither one of them is doing all they could be, because they are too angry with each other.
113
It's true that SBo3's husband was foolish for not insisting she try it before they got married, and its true that she may also have been "foolish" for not trying it - although it's more likely that she was one or more of scheming/ selfish/ self-delusional.
He'll pay for that foolishness in alimony for a looong time while she'll be rewarded with all the sympathy and $$ she needs.
He'll pay for that foolishness in alimony for a looong time while she'll be rewarded with all the sympathy and $$ she needs.
115
Want to takes bets that she will be pregnant before she get divorced?
Nothing perks up a sex life better than kids screaming all the time.
Nothing perks up a sex life better than kids screaming all the time.
116
I am in a similar situation to SBOOO. I entered into a relationship with someone about a year ago. I told him from the beginning that monogamy was not an option for me; however since it was a new idea to him I would take it slow and not jump into bed with someone else right away. Its been a year and he is still saying, "not yet."
I told him from day one that is what I feel is best for me. Sadly we both know that me being nonmonogamous and him being monogamous means our relationship is going to end. However, he isn't being a whiny jerk about it. You can't be in a happy relationship with someone that isn't happy. It sucks, so figure out a way to compromise or move on and find someone more compatible.
I told him from day one that is what I feel is best for me. Sadly we both know that me being nonmonogamous and him being monogamous means our relationship is going to end. However, he isn't being a whiny jerk about it. You can't be in a happy relationship with someone that isn't happy. It sucks, so figure out a way to compromise or move on and find someone more compatible.
117
So many people hating on SBOOO! This is one of those situations that you can't really know how you'll feel about till it happens. Which means Dan is right regarding the "shoulda tried it BEFORE you got hitched," but it doesn't make her an evil person or an idiot. Nor does it mean divorce is the only option.
Sounds to me like what she needs is a supportive community (not to be found here, apparently!) and some good advice from people who have been there. There are thoughtful listservs for swingers/poly people, and (finally!) some good books on the topic (check out Jenny Block's "Open: Love, Sex, and Life in an Open Marriage"). So SBOOO's husband likes to fuck strangers; SHE's the one he fell in love with enough to make a lifelong commitment to. It takes a lot more than a couple conversations to cast off a lifetime of pro-monogamy socialization, and in my experience it's often harder for women (since they get socialized a lot more intensely in this regard). It's conceivable that SBOOO could expand her horizons enough to tolerate, if not embrace, swinging. Sure, she should have done this before tying the knot, but that doesn't mean it's too late. If you're reading this, SBOOO, do some reading before you rush out to find a lawyer.
Sounds to me like what she needs is a supportive community (not to be found here, apparently!) and some good advice from people who have been there. There are thoughtful listservs for swingers/poly people, and (finally!) some good books on the topic (check out Jenny Block's "Open: Love, Sex, and Life in an Open Marriage"). So SBOOO's husband likes to fuck strangers; SHE's the one he fell in love with enough to make a lifelong commitment to. It takes a lot more than a couple conversations to cast off a lifetime of pro-monogamy socialization, and in my experience it's often harder for women (since they get socialized a lot more intensely in this regard). It's conceivable that SBOOO could expand her horizons enough to tolerate, if not embrace, swinging. Sure, she should have done this before tying the knot, but that doesn't mean it's too late. If you're reading this, SBOOO, do some reading before you rush out to find a lawyer.
118
Dan
SBooo had it coming but I feel for the hubby. I had this cool chick;- loved movies, books, sex, making out,hanging with my friends etc.
2 years into the marriage;- hates my friends, No oral, (for either of us) hates movies, reading books, kissing.
Turns out what she really loves to do in bed is eat snacks while watching TV.
sb
SBooo had it coming but I feel for the hubby. I had this cool chick;- loved movies, books, sex, making out,hanging with my friends etc.
2 years into the marriage;- hates my friends, No oral, (for either of us) hates movies, reading books, kissing.
Turns out what she really loves to do in bed is eat snacks while watching TV.
sb
119
Hmmmm. Thought I think your final advice to SBOOO is spot on, I have trouble with your degree of criticism. SBOOO did communicate, and there was no indication that she lied when she said that she was interested in exploring those issues. Sure, she discovered that she's a lot smaller of a person then she thought that she was, but since when are you down on exporing your sexuality. Exploring often leads to failure - finding things that you don't like. SBOOO thought she liked the idea of merry-go-rounds, but then discovered the unpleasant side of motion sickness. Wasn't it also her partner's responsibility to be sure that tey were both good with swinging before they got married? And why was a swinger so interested in marriage? There were clear failures on his part - in particular the glaring obnoxiousness of leaving his wife on the very night of this conversation to go swing. Don't you think that that might have been a good time to go for dinner and do something togther (if he was actually in interested in his wife rather than just possessing one). Sorry, Dan, I don't usually comment, but you ripped one half of a real two person problem on this one. Divorce now, SBOO!
120
Whether or not SBOOO was open to the idea or not, the fact is that if she had been smart enough to think that perhaps, this is something she should investigate BEFORE getting married she'd have found out long before the nuptials that she wasn't into it, saving herself all this heartache. It's hard to have sympathy for someone who FUCKING KNEW her husband would want to do this and then instead of making sure she was down, busted out some lame ass excuse about being "too stressed at work" which is such a patently obvious lie, I'm astounded anyone believed it.
However, her husband is ALSO a raging moron who should have pressed the issue to make sure he was marrying someone who would be able to fulfill him sexually. It's hard to have sympathy for someone who accepted "oh, we'll explore it after we get married, hon" instead of doing more to ensure that he was marrying someone who wouldn't flake out on him.
She probably thought when she married him she could change him, and she would suddenly be "enough" for him. If she tried it a couple times and said she wasn't into it, maybe she thought he would give it up for her sake, and she's now discovering that that isn't the case. But couldn't he have waited a week before skipping off to an orgy? It sounds like she wants to be GGG for him, but needs a little help to get there.
However, her husband is ALSO a raging moron who should have pressed the issue to make sure he was marrying someone who would be able to fulfill him sexually. It's hard to have sympathy for someone who accepted "oh, we'll explore it after we get married, hon" instead of doing more to ensure that he was marrying someone who wouldn't flake out on him.
She probably thought when she married him she could change him, and she would suddenly be "enough" for him. If she tried it a couple times and said she wasn't into it, maybe she thought he would give it up for her sake, and she's now discovering that that isn't the case. But couldn't he have waited a week before skipping off to an orgy? It sounds like she wants to be GGG for him, but needs a little help to get there.
121
Excellent reply to SBOOO. False advertising is always fucked up.
And I'm a monogamist, BTW. I'd hate to think what it would be like were I deceived into marriage with a woman who claimed to also be a monogamist, only to find out after it was too late that she wasn't. Ick.
And I'm a monogamist, BTW. I'd hate to think what it would be like were I deceived into marriage with a woman who claimed to also be a monogamist, only to find out after it was too late that she wasn't. Ick.
122
Dan,
Clearly SBOOO made a mistake not exploring the swinging thing before marriage, but Jesus you really blasted her for it. I agree with you that her husband is unlikely to change because, well, he told her so! Without all the judgment, you could have said simply that she made the mistake and it's hers to fix. She needs to decide if she can live with the situation and leave if she can't. If she does leave, she should do it in a way that doesn't make her husband look like an asshole or blame him for it. But I guess you have to entertain as well as advise so most everyone gets a good laugh at SBOOO's expense.
Clearly SBOOO made a mistake not exploring the swinging thing before marriage, but Jesus you really blasted her for it. I agree with you that her husband is unlikely to change because, well, he told her so! Without all the judgment, you could have said simply that she made the mistake and it's hers to fix. She needs to decide if she can live with the situation and leave if she can't. If she does leave, she should do it in a way that doesn't make her husband look like an asshole or blame him for it. But I guess you have to entertain as well as advise so most everyone gets a good laugh at SBOOO's expense.
123
I think that one reason Dan came down so hard on SBOOO was the privilege issue: her husband wants to sleep around and she doesn't. In the eyes of the vast majority of the people out there -- including a grossly disproportionate number of therapists and judges -- that makes him Ze Bad Guy, period. If she tells why they're getting divorced he is not going to get a fair shake from his family, friends, or the courts. She is in a position of strength thanks to the culture around her and so should be able to deal with a little bit of a verbal ass-whipping.
BTW, I'm with those who call bullshit on the "no time to try it before marriage!" excuse. She didn't try it before marriage either because she knew she wouldn't like it, or believed she wouldn't like it. Either way she clearly knew or intuited going in that This Wasn't For Her. Kudos to her for trying, but she knew. (And, to be honest, I do wonder just how passive aggressive resistant those efforts were.)
BTW2: Put me in the category of those who are profoundly suspicious of therapists. I saw 'em in operation in the dozens of divorce files that I handled. Most of them, whatever their other merits, had a "it's the husband's fault" default setting, (which was very useful when representing the wife).
BTW, I'm with those who call bullshit on the "no time to try it before marriage!" excuse. She didn't try it before marriage either because she knew she wouldn't like it, or believed she wouldn't like it. Either way she clearly knew or intuited going in that This Wasn't For Her. Kudos to her for trying, but she knew. (And, to be honest, I do wonder just how passive aggressive resistant those efforts were.)
BTW2: Put me in the category of those who are profoundly suspicious of therapists. I saw 'em in operation in the dozens of divorce files that I handled. Most of them, whatever their other merits, had a "it's the husband's fault" default setting, (which was very useful when representing the wife).
124
I STILL (STILL) don't understand why someone who just wants to run around and fuck random people would want to get married in the first place. What's the point? Can anyone explain this?
Marriage is supposed to be a partnership, which is why couples swing together. Same as grocery shopping together, eating together, etc. You love your wife, you find her hot, you want to do stuff together, including group sex or whatever because you both like that too. This is swinging.
Random fucking without your spouse isn't swinging. It's random fucking. It's basically what you do when you are single. So why get married?
Marriage is supposed to be a partnership, which is why couples swing together. Same as grocery shopping together, eating together, etc. You love your wife, you find her hot, you want to do stuff together, including group sex or whatever because you both like that too. This is swinging.
Random fucking without your spouse isn't swinging. It's random fucking. It's basically what you do when you are single. So why get married?
125
@ the outer rim at 6:31 pm:
A spouse is a life partner on whom you rely for countless things. A lover is a sex partner on whom you rely for only one thing. Having somebody that you want to be committed to for everything else in life is not incompatible with wanting sex with other people. You're just restating a position that drives poly folks nuts: that one's sex life must be irretrievably fixed to one's person and that no true commitment can exist without monogamy.
A spouse is a life partner on whom you rely for countless things. A lover is a sex partner on whom you rely for only one thing. Having somebody that you want to be committed to for everything else in life is not incompatible with wanting sex with other people. You're just restating a position that drives poly folks nuts: that one's sex life must be irretrievably fixed to one's person and that no true commitment can exist without monogamy.
127
As for SBOOO, I agree that they should part now as cleanly as possible. BUT. One aspect of swinging, to which I can ruefully attest, is that often male partners are less interested in satisfying than being satisfied. Then there are all those variables like preferences, hygiene, bad breath, awful technique, or basic incompatibility. These problems can often be happily addressed within a long term relationship of whatever sort, but become major obstacles to pleasure in one-off [sic] situations.
You guys sometimes forget that women's orgasms are not the foregone conclusion that yours tend to be.
You guys sometimes forget that women's orgasms are not the foregone conclusion that yours tend to be.
128
In regard to SBOOO, he was honest, and I'd bet almost anything that SBOOO thought that she could change him after they were married. This is a common illusion (or delusion) that has destroyed a lot of marriages. I've heard that line from a lot of divorcing friends--mostly women.
129
Going through the responses, (and especially the one from Chris down in The Couv) we the reader just don't know what SBOOO said to her husband before their marriage - about how much 'she was into it' even through she had her doubts. Yes husband should have been more careful to involve his wife in his parties before they were married. There were some writers who were saying how the partying wasn't happening before the marriage - but I bet it was for the husband. SBOOO just wasn't part of it.
The part I don't see in any of these responses, or the letter from SBOOO was exactly what kind of parties she was expected to be part of. Maybe her thing was to be only involved with one other person, another guy or gal, a couple or a small group. It seems husband went off with any stranger(s) and maybe SBOOO just didn't like that. In the end, they both should have been more honest about their needs. It's too bad because they were probably compatible in other areas.
The part I don't see in any of these responses, or the letter from SBOOO was exactly what kind of parties she was expected to be part of. Maybe her thing was to be only involved with one other person, another guy or gal, a couple or a small group. It seems husband went off with any stranger(s) and maybe SBOOO just didn't like that. In the end, they both should have been more honest about their needs. It's too bad because they were probably compatible in other areas.
130
SBOOO, like many women, thought she could change her almost perfect man into the perfect, faithful one she wanted--a man who only had eyes for her. But what about this thought... Why did hubby marry her without one single "experimentation"?Hmmmmmmmmm? If swinging is such an important part of his sex life, wouldn't that be worth a test? KInd of an Alexander Dumbass, don't you think? Oh well... like many of us he ingnored a big red flag and married the manipulative bitch anyway.
131
I've had many great monogamous relationships, some long term, some lasting only a few months. The bigger problem here seems to be with the fetish of marriage, as if any desire by our partners should be accommodated to preserve the union. Many people seem to judge her because she didn't know or reveal her preferences BEFORE they got married, as if everything should have been laid out before the big dress was donned. Honestly, does it matter when she decided/revealed/discovered that swinging wasn't for her? Marriage is the anachronism. Not monogamy.
132
Hey, SBOOO. I have an idear that will make you feel a lot better.
You know that guy? The incredibly hot guy at work you always lust after, with a face like Jon Hamm? Invite the gang to happy hour. Get him away from the herd. Tell him about your open relationship... that you're free to have NSA sex. And then do it. You don't realize the gift you've been given. Use it.
You know that guy? The incredibly hot guy at work you always lust after, with a face like Jon Hamm? Invite the gang to happy hour. Get him away from the herd. Tell him about your open relationship... that you're free to have NSA sex. And then do it. You don't realize the gift you've been given. Use it.
133
I ONLY read the city paper, because of you! If you don't have a column that week, I don't read the paper! Thanx, I learned sooooo much!
134
Yeah I agree that SBOOO had that coming but I also think that they both jumped to rationalize the situation too quickly before marriage. If she didn't have any experience with open relationships prior why didn't they tested it out before getting hitched! Both people have a responsiblility to protect their neededs and make sure the other isn't putting on a good show before such commitments are made. It sounds like he projected a bit too, he should have made sure they tried it before marring her. Swinging/open/poly is the type of thing you're either into or not, and you don't know if your into until you try it. She may have been dishonest and does sound like an idiot but I think he is too for not making her walk the talk before commiting. So I don't feel too sorry for him either. All this is assuming the person is for real, this letter had a false vibe about it.
Dan I have to say you are cranky lately. I'm a regular reader of SLOG and noticed some of your answers to student questions were a bit turse. Drooling pussy eaters can give you yeast infections let alone feel really creepy and gross.... but oh yeah you don't care about pussy so just tell the twats their pussy will melt. Orignal.
Well even though I hate it when you get shitty (your writing isn't as good) I still dig you. I hope your winter travels come to an end very soon and hope your mood improves.
Dan I have to say you are cranky lately. I'm a regular reader of SLOG and noticed some of your answers to student questions were a bit turse. Drooling pussy eaters can give you yeast infections let alone feel really creepy and gross.... but oh yeah you don't care about pussy so just tell the twats their pussy will melt. Orignal.
Well even though I hate it when you get shitty (your writing isn't as good) I still dig you. I hope your winter travels come to an end very soon and hope your mood improves.
135
yeah no one has any sympathy for sbooo. i get that. way to chum the water for all us sharks, dan!
136
While I don't sympathize w/SBOOO, I don't blame her either, as people change their minds/values/priorities all the time. Once she realized this, the only choice, difficult as it is, is to break up & move on.
But I'd also be curious to know what the husband's take is on this, i.e. does he love his wife enough to give up the extramarital stuff? If not, all the more reason for the split.
But I'd also be curious to know what the husband's take is on this, i.e. does he love his wife enough to give up the extramarital stuff? If not, all the more reason for the split.
137
The only thing I'd change about the response to SBOOO is in the first sentence: it should read, "You are a FUCKING idiot."
138
"I'd also be curious to know what the husband's take is on this, i.e. does he love his wife enough to give up the extramarital stuff?"
Ummm... I kinda think that Dan has made clear that -- IHHO -- getting the husband to give this up once he was in the marriage was kinda a central objective from the get-go.
Ummm... I kinda think that Dan has made clear that -- IHHO -- getting the husband to give this up once he was in the marriage was kinda a central objective from the get-go.
139
ugh SB is the kind of woman who ruins things for the rest of us. Not all women are that insecure and need to misrepresent themselves in order to 'snag' an amazing man. No wonder women are seen as manipulative and fickle.
Some women know exactly what they want and know themselves sexually enough to KNOW whether monogamy is for them or not.
That said, Dan, I love you.
Some women know exactly what they want and know themselves sexually enough to KNOW whether monogamy is for them or not.
That said, Dan, I love you.
142
I thought you were a bit harsh on SBOOO. Why not refer to her to a poly/mono group? At least she has an honest husband who was up-front with her from the get-go, and that's a positive. I doubt that their marriage will work in the long run, but you never know. Sometimes people adjust.
144
SBOOO reminds of me of Fag Hags who fall in love with their gay male friends, despite it being made perfectly clear from the outset that such guys are gay, with the hopes that their love will "straighten" them out -- and then the Fag Hags resent the gay men when this inevitably Does Not Happen.
145
20th century, meet the 21st. The key statement in SBoo-hoo's letter is "I can't help but feel hurt that I alone am not enough for him." That's the old-thinking, the huge ego-stroking demand of partners (male & female) that they're so fucking incredible & important that their spouses should be completely satisfied w/ just them. No one is enough for anybody. At least the poly-people try to put their desires in practice, most people just settle. And no one's ego is so important that another should sacrifice their own dreams for it.
That "I should be everything for my partner" is a tired ego-stroke that's no longer useful. It should be called the Old Perversion.
That "I should be everything for my partner" is a tired ego-stroke that's no longer useful. It should be called the Old Perversion.
146
Here's my question: did they not have sex at all before they got married? Cause otherwise I find it incredibly difficult to believe that hectic work schedule or not that SBOOO couldn't have figured this out a little bit. If she's too rushed to have had anything but once or twice with him, perhaps she should have put dating or marriage on hold in the first place until she could devote more energy to it. Stupid bint
147
I feel no pity for SBOOO - quite a few women I know (and men, for that matter) go into a relationship or marriage thinking that they can change a fundamental personality aspect, or kink, or bad habit. They then become disappointed or upset when the change that was so crucial to their own sense happiness fails to materialize. Having been subject to the relationship bait and switch a few times myself, and it really sucks. If you aren't willing to pay the price of admission for the show as advertised to begin with, don't enter. Sorry SBOOO - I suspect there will be no refunds for you, nor do you deserve one. Best thing to do is kindly and gently leave.
148
I think you guys are being a little too hard on SBOOO [not you Dan].. she THOUGHT she would be up for it and after a lot of trying, she wasn't. I don't think this means that she deceived him or lied in any way because she didn't even know herself that she wasn't going to enjoy it.
149
As long as her husband loves her, comes home to her, is careful with other people, and restricts meetings with other people to a reasonable number of instances per month, what is SBOOO's problem? What is with the obsessive/jealous/ownership tendency of most women towards their men? My husband and I are apart from each other months each year, and I don't care what he does with others during that time, as long as it's clean and safe.
150
I feel sorry for SBOOO. I mean, she went to the counselor, she's trying to make it work... it's not like she expects you to agree with her. You were way too hard on her. She may have been a little naive, but her intentions were (still are) good and that shouldn't be punished.
151
There is little doubt that SBOOO has no one but herself to blame. That being said, as a previous commenter stated, many people don't know themselves sexually. I think this is especially true for women. Whether that is the case or not here is unclear. Still, you should keep that in mind Dan.
152
Wow, amazing how what one learns and how it applies to so many different things. I now realize that I, SBOOO's husband and many posters on this discussion thread (including perhaps Danno Savage, but he at least has stated the sound reasons for his position and he has his schtick to uphold). I learned tonight that I am lacking in tact! I'm tactless. I look at my earlier comments and I see how I'm tactless. It's remarkable. I see that many of us posters here are tactless.
Fascinating the things you can learn from your experiences.
SBOOO's still a moron (a nice tactless comment for those who don't get it), but there's more than one way to say it. My way (both in this thread and above) is perhaps not the best way to do it, but SBOOO (and her husband too) is still a moron all the same.
Tactless... Wow, what a concept! :-)
Fascinating the things you can learn from your experiences.
SBOOO's still a moron (a nice tactless comment for those who don't get it), but there's more than one way to say it. My way (both in this thread and above) is perhaps not the best way to do it, but SBOOO (and her husband too) is still a moron all the same.
Tactless... Wow, what a concept! :-)
153
I agree with your smackdown of SBOOO, but wish you had pointed out to readers that part of being a good non-monogamist partner is making sure that your primary partner isn't always on the short end of the stick. Why should his sex life be on an outward (linear) trajectory? He should be able to have his cake, and sometimes stay home and eat her, too... and going out the same night she agreed he could swing alone was pretty damn cold.
154
Everybody had a wet dream,
everybody saw the sun shine.
A really healthy man who has 20 orgasms - not a candidate for cancer
A really healthy man who has no sexual fetishes or addictions - also healthy.
Some guy who has to try to reach orgasm because of sexual fetishes and addictions does it way too much for his age - after a few years he is not going to be a healthy guy
everybody saw the sun shine.
A really healthy man who has 20 orgasms - not a candidate for cancer
A really healthy man who has no sexual fetishes or addictions - also healthy.
Some guy who has to try to reach orgasm because of sexual fetishes and addictions does it way too much for his age - after a few years he is not going to be a healthy guy
155
Good Advice for SBOOO, Dan.
She tried something and discovered she wasn't compatible. The best thing for her is to realize that it is only just that and to "Keep Walking On".
Lord knows we've all tried somethings that we couldn't do more than once or twice or maybe just one more time! She gave it more than one go, where's that story?
There was something good enough there for him to say yes to the marriage in the first place, not just the promise of a polygamous lifestyle - right?
The best thing for her is to realize that it is only just that and to Keep Walking On.
She tried something and discovered she wasn't compatible. The best thing for her is to realize that it is only just that and to "Keep Walking On".
Lord knows we've all tried somethings that we couldn't do more than once or twice or maybe just one more time! She gave it more than one go, where's that story?
There was something good enough there for him to say yes to the marriage in the first place, not just the promise of a polygamous lifestyle - right?
The best thing for her is to realize that it is only just that and to Keep Walking On.
156
Look, I'm with you on SBOOO. But SBOOO's hubby is not without blame. Men and women misrepresent themselves to one another all the time, right? When your paramour tells you she's into swinging, great. But when she can't make time for it because of a 'stressful' job, well, any man older than 22 ought to know where this is going. Yes, he was honest. Yes, she was not. But I'm not going to give him a free pass for blindly relying on the sort of obvious misrepresentation that any reasonable man would have seen through long before the engagement.
157
I love the answer you gave to sbooo and I love the way you said it! Someone that thick in the head, ignoring the totally obvious, has to have the answer applied forcefully to get it thru. Why do those mono chicks tie up all the poly guys so I can't find them??
159
SBOOO is fucked. my only qualm with your response, as a therapist i would definitely NOT side with SBOOO and would have much the same response to her, and support for her partner just with slightly different language... slightly. hopefully i'm not in the .01%, but if i am, sobeit... i'll talk louder at therapy parties.
160
The only thing I think you missed with SBOOO, Dan, is what about the husband? He married her before they explored their sexuality thoroughly knowing that perhaps she might not enjoy swinging. Don't you think the responsibility was mutual regarding vetting the sexuality before marriage?
161
sboy, lying in bed, eating? sounds like your wife could be depressed. Might want to go at it from that angle, trying to help her rather than pout about lost playmate.
162
I couldn't get through all the comments about SBOOO so maybe somebody's made this point already, but I think Dan was too hard on SBOOO.
I would say that SBOOO's letter indicates a lack of self-awareness but not manipulation. She doesn't trash her husband or berate him for his poly ways but rather states that she didn't like the poly stuff once she tried it and admits to feeling resentful. Often, it's hard to know what something's really like until you try it. Fantasies and real life rarely jibe. She doesn't betray any sort of scheming either.
I think that SBOOO needing to wait until her work stress lifted was a red flag that she wasn't ready--one she clearly missed, again indicating a lack of insight. I don't, however, think that it's unreasonable to postpone major life changes during times of duress. I think Dan was too quick to dismiss the impact of work stress here.
Yeah, SBOOO calls herself free-spirited and yeah, she's probably not, but lots of people identify themselves in vague or downright incorrect terms. (Try going on a date from the personals and you'll see what I mean.)
She should divorce this guy as they are incompatible, which will be stressful but not as much as it will be for them to remain married; the sooner the better. It could be worse though, they could have kids and they don't--yet.
Based on what SBOOO has written, I don't see either one of them as being the bad guy. There's a lot of vitriol in the posts though which doesn't seem justified considering what SBOOO wrote. Despite her moniker, i.e. Sex is Best One On One, she doesn't trash the poly community. She doesn't trash her husband or men in general either, so what's up w/ all the hostility?
Do posters assume she's manipulative because she's female and uptight (also an assumption)?
More...
I would say that SBOOO's letter indicates a lack of self-awareness but not manipulation. She doesn't trash her husband or berate him for his poly ways but rather states that she didn't like the poly stuff once she tried it and admits to feeling resentful. Often, it's hard to know what something's really like until you try it. Fantasies and real life rarely jibe. She doesn't betray any sort of scheming either.
I think that SBOOO needing to wait until her work stress lifted was a red flag that she wasn't ready--one she clearly missed, again indicating a lack of insight. I don't, however, think that it's unreasonable to postpone major life changes during times of duress. I think Dan was too quick to dismiss the impact of work stress here.
Yeah, SBOOO calls herself free-spirited and yeah, she's probably not, but lots of people identify themselves in vague or downright incorrect terms. (Try going on a date from the personals and you'll see what I mean.)
She should divorce this guy as they are incompatible, which will be stressful but not as much as it will be for them to remain married; the sooner the better. It could be worse though, they could have kids and they don't--yet.
Based on what SBOOO has written, I don't see either one of them as being the bad guy. There's a lot of vitriol in the posts though which doesn't seem justified considering what SBOOO wrote. Despite her moniker, i.e. Sex is Best One On One, she doesn't trash the poly community. She doesn't trash her husband or men in general either, so what's up w/ all the hostility?
Do posters assume she's manipulative because she's female and uptight (also an assumption)?
163
"I wanted to spend my limited free time with him instead of exploring our sexuality with multiple partners"
SBOOO, that was your clue right there - one-on-one is the thing that's most important to you, even if you really were fooling both yourself and your husband about your ability and desire to swing.
What you need to consider now is what you're really "crushed" and "hurt" about - is it the swinging, or is it your inability to change the man you married?
If I were talking to *him*, I'd say get out of the marriage - you were honest with her, and she's rejected that honesty. But as I'm talking to you, I wonder if you could take a deep breath and rethink this for the sake of your relationship?
Reading your letter, it seems to me that a lot of your resentment is that your husband needs someone other than you: I think it's about your ego, not necessarily your sexuality. "I feel resentful after these episodes, and I don't feel like having sex for days." Are you sure you're not just sulking because he won't do what you want? You might do better to find a way to deal with this and learn to play alongside him (and thank your deity of choice that he's being honest about it, not doing it behind your back) - rather than lose "this amazing man".
SBOOO, that was your clue right there - one-on-one is the thing that's most important to you, even if you really were fooling both yourself and your husband about your ability and desire to swing.
What you need to consider now is what you're really "crushed" and "hurt" about - is it the swinging, or is it your inability to change the man you married?
If I were talking to *him*, I'd say get out of the marriage - you were honest with her, and she's rejected that honesty. But as I'm talking to you, I wonder if you could take a deep breath and rethink this for the sake of your relationship?
Reading your letter, it seems to me that a lot of your resentment is that your husband needs someone other than you: I think it's about your ego, not necessarily your sexuality. "I feel resentful after these episodes, and I don't feel like having sex for days." Are you sure you're not just sulking because he won't do what you want? You might do better to find a way to deal with this and learn to play alongside him (and thank your deity of choice that he's being honest about it, not doing it behind your back) - rather than lose "this amazing man".
164
As someone who could be the guy in SBOOO's narrative -- my thing isn't flat out openness, only an intense liking for FMF threesomes -- I empathize with her husband. After a particular threesome 10 years ago and subsequent events, I finally came to the conclusion that this lifestyle (which my parents practiced during 50 years together, bless their hearts) was essential to my personhood. I wanted a kind and loyal woman partner who enjoyed prowling and tag-teaming together, not for my gratitude alone but for each of us. Threesomes, the way I saw it, were for each party's pleasure, not just on or two. That's the whole point.
I subsequently advertised for bi women partners who actually enjoyed threesomes. I was clear that my relationships hadn't succeeded with straight women. I got quite a few responses each time.
Many nice and some wonderful women took me up on my invitations to get together. These inevitably began with making plans for tag teaming women but once the relationships were further along, suddenly those plans evaporated. Three different relationships respectively resulted in: (1) my partner's "bi-ness" turned out to be a "curiosity" that didn't really want to get worked out; (2) a thing of the past (the cliched "college fling"); or (3) a victim of maturity as in, "I liked that when I was younger but now I want to settle down."
Don't get me wrong. These were great women on every count; we remain friends. They just weren't sexually compatible with my fetish. Our relationships were never fully satisfying for them or for me. Sadness more than anger accompanied our separations.
Now I'm with a fourth "bi" woman (I know she has been, she has the reputational credentials and her past women lovers -- most of whom have married and live conventional lives -- call her frequently). Talking about our mutual (I thought) fantasies about women over the last year, I thought I'd finally met my match. But after two embarrassing nights watching her tease but not act on other women's desires, I'm about ready to chuck it all and live solo for awhile. I'm not a spring chicken, so partners may be harder to come by if and when I'm ready once more to give it a try. But to tell the truth, I'm not so eager about entering another failed relationship -- and being a sexual minority, that's more likely than not.
I have terrific empathy for all people with kinks and festishes and gender preferences that make them targets for others, whether those others are out and out predators or simply, as in my case, well meaning women who couldn't get that I was being honest about my difference and they weren't.
More...
I subsequently advertised for bi women partners who actually enjoyed threesomes. I was clear that my relationships hadn't succeeded with straight women. I got quite a few responses each time.
Many nice and some wonderful women took me up on my invitations to get together. These inevitably began with making plans for tag teaming women but once the relationships were further along, suddenly those plans evaporated. Three different relationships respectively resulted in: (1) my partner's "bi-ness" turned out to be a "curiosity" that didn't really want to get worked out; (2) a thing of the past (the cliched "college fling"); or (3) a victim of maturity as in, "I liked that when I was younger but now I want to settle down."
Don't get me wrong. These were great women on every count; we remain friends. They just weren't sexually compatible with my fetish. Our relationships were never fully satisfying for them or for me. Sadness more than anger accompanied our separations.
Now I'm with a fourth "bi" woman (I know she has been, she has the reputational credentials and her past women lovers -- most of whom have married and live conventional lives -- call her frequently). Talking about our mutual (I thought) fantasies about women over the last year, I thought I'd finally met my match. But after two embarrassing nights watching her tease but not act on other women's desires, I'm about ready to chuck it all and live solo for awhile. I'm not a spring chicken, so partners may be harder to come by if and when I'm ready once more to give it a try. But to tell the truth, I'm not so eager about entering another failed relationship -- and being a sexual minority, that's more likely than not.
I have terrific empathy for all people with kinks and festishes and gender preferences that make them targets for others, whether those others are out and out predators or simply, as in my case, well meaning women who couldn't get that I was being honest about my difference and they weren't.
165
I think you came down to hard on Sbooo Dan. She is an honest girl in the sense that she wanted a marriage just like he did. I mean there is an exclusion factor here otherwise why get married?
166
Back in the 90s I read a book called "The Ethical Slut" that was a real eye-opener about the true challenges in long-term poly-relationships. Just because one is in a poly-relationship doesn't mean stuff like jealousy, communication and other ethical issues just don't apply. These things cannot be negotiated only once. Like most things in relationships - nothing comes or stays perfect forever. A true willingness for "negotiation" and "adaption" is very important, and this cannot be a black and white situation, but with shades of grey, give and take with *both* parties caring about what is important to/for the other person. It seemed to me that this was totally lost in Dan's reply. I guess he seemed to think he was up against a wall of conformist pro-monogamy bullshit. Maybe that was a "strawman argument" and maybe it wasn't - sometimes there are dealbreakers that mean the relatinship is doomed. But I don't think I'm alone in suggesting that there could have been some constructive advice for SBOOO instead of dumping all over her.
167
I think SBOOOO was deluding herself as much as she was her partner. Delaying the experimentation until after the wedding was stupid, but she did try after they were married and then discovered she didn't like it. Perhaps she thought this "amazing" man would reform, but perhaps she was hoping she might like it.
Sadly, it seems like one of them is going to be unhappy with their sex lives if they continue to be married.
Sadly, it seems like one of them is going to be unhappy with their sex lives if they continue to be married.
168
SBOOO's husband is an ass, and you're enabling similar men to be similar asses. His wife was willing to "explore" a dozen times. Just because she's "free-spirited" doesn't mean she's going to enjoy sex with someone other than her husband. Can't you be free-spirited within a marriage, and legitimately decide that swinging isn't your thing after several experiences? And what's wrong with this guy that he won't change his incredibly selfish lifestyle for his wife? Going to sex parties alone? He deserves for all their friends to think he's a selfish prick. But I hope SBOOO learns from this - "open marriage" is an oxymoron.
170
Dan! I'm so sad that I missed you when were in Anchorage!! This is especially depressing since I originally suggested an Anchorage visit to your publicist, or whoever it is that arranges these things for you. At any rate, I'm wondering if it was recorded and if there is somewhere I can find a copy of it, and if you'll be back. Thanks!
171
Dan,
Your comments were right on target to SBOOO. People who try to change the rules of the game after signing the marriage contract have no integrity. This example reifies why only mature, honest adults should marry each other. Stay strong.
Your comments were right on target to SBOOO. People who try to change the rules of the game after signing the marriage contract have no integrity. This example reifies why only mature, honest adults should marry each other. Stay strong.
172
To the husband of SBOOO, divorce her, and file it under fraud. Then get the marriage annulled legally. That way you won't have to pay her ass anything. I'm not really siding with either here, he sounds like a pig, and she sounds like a blind idiot. Too many of us women think we can change a man if we can get them to marry us first. Not cool. But he did tell her all of this up front. So shame on her.
174
I couldnt help but notice SBOOO's hubby just happened to know there was a sex party the very night he brought it up to her about going alone!
175
Well, exactly HOW honest was Mr. SBOOO before the wedding?
Did he say, "This is something I really need to do," or did he say, "Gee, wouldn't this be fun to do?"
Did he say, "This is something I really need to do," or did he say, "Gee, wouldn't this be fun to do?"
176
Vic Torey-Paughn:
God how sad, I hope you find someone for you.
What I think a lot of SBOOO defenders don't get is that Dan came down extra hard on SBOOO because the husband is going to be the bad guy in everyones eyes when the divorce happens. The husband is going to get shit on, and the wife is going to get all the sympathy. The letter is one small attempt to even the scales. It's supposed to be harsh.
God how sad, I hope you find someone for you.
What I think a lot of SBOOO defenders don't get is that Dan came down extra hard on SBOOO because the husband is going to be the bad guy in everyones eyes when the divorce happens. The husband is going to get shit on, and the wife is going to get all the sympathy. The letter is one small attempt to even the scales. It's supposed to be harsh.
177
"Frequent Sex And Masturbation In 20s And 30s Linked To Higher Prostate Cancer Risk"
http://www.physorg.com/news152191908.htm…
http://www.physorg.com/news152191908.htm…
178
SBOOO made a blunder that's unfortunately all too common these days: she got married before she really knew herself. And now she's trying to force a round marriage into a (very) square hole. What she needs to do is grow a pair and be honest with her husband, without blaming him. "I thought I was okay with this, but I'm not," is a good way to start, and "I think you deserve to be with someone who doesn't just TOLERATE (barely) your preferences." Of course, it doesn't entirely sound like she does think he deserves that. But he does. Everyone deserves to have a partner who doesn't scorn them. If he loves her, he won't want to see her hurt by his behavior, and in this case I think that means divorce.
I get the impression, however, that even if they break up she will still see his poly desires as a personal affront. I don't hold it against her that she doesn't love him enough to change, because I don't think anyone loves someone else enough to change who they are fundamentally, but it's unreasonable for her to expect him to.
I get the impression, however, that even if they break up she will still see his poly desires as a personal affront. I don't hold it against her that she doesn't love him enough to change, because I don't think anyone loves someone else enough to change who they are fundamentally, but it's unreasonable for her to expect him to.
179
really *REALLY* tired of all the people mistaking poly for swing, or vice-versa. Swing is about sex. Poly is about relationships. Yes that usually involves sex, but its about living life together as a threesome, foursome, or moresome. Even if outside relationships are not also connected romantically to one's primary partner, it is far more succesful when the primary and ancillary partners are friends, the closer the better.
I'm not saying this to run down swing. I've done that as well and it was a lot of NSA fun. But as time passed I gravitated toward a poly outlook. Besides, we consensual non-monogamists can afford to judge each other when we have an entire society that will happily do it for us.
SBOOO isnt down with the swing thing, either solo or couple. Yeah, shes a manipulative bitch for trying to make her husband change after she got the hooks into him. But perhaps they could salvage their marriage by changing their non-monogamy focus more toward poly by finding a third or another couple to, well, call it "exclusively swing with." Aside from being safer in the long run, it might be a compromise they can both live with.
I'm not saying this to run down swing. I've done that as well and it was a lot of NSA fun. But as time passed I gravitated toward a poly outlook. Besides, we consensual non-monogamists can afford to judge each other when we have an entire society that will happily do it for us.
SBOOO isnt down with the swing thing, either solo or couple. Yeah, shes a manipulative bitch for trying to make her husband change after she got the hooks into him. But perhaps they could salvage their marriage by changing their non-monogamy focus more toward poly by finding a third or another couple to, well, call it "exclusively swing with." Aside from being safer in the long run, it might be a compromise they can both live with.
180
Go Dan, Go! She said she wanted you to be straight and honest with her...I put myself into a position like that in my early 20s and just because you are willing to experiment you think the other person will get it out of their system, blah blah blah, but it never works that way. If you want a cuddly monogamous relationship, you have to find one and you have to know that someone looking to swing isn't going to "grow" out of it or "love you" enough to change...THAT IS WHO THE FUCK THEY ARE AND THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO...and bless that out and out swinger for being honest to his woman even though she wasn't honest with him. I hope they both find what they are looking for.
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In regards to LOADED, I'd like to point out that Taoist practictioners have been practicing ejaculation denial for centuries to little physical detriment. In fact, they claim the loss of semen is a loss of vital energy. I would advise him to do a google or wikipedia search for more info on the topic, perhaps include a search for injaculation as well.
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TO LOADED: Gloves cut down on the "ick" factor significantly. I have some experience with milking.
183
Women like SBOOO that makes free-spirited girls like us looks bad. I hope her husband have a chance to read this and get the divorce ASAP from this selfish woman.
184
thats a really messed up situation i feel that sex should between only a husband and wife in a marriage and if they want other partners they shouldnt be married!!!
185
Is anyone honestly not thinking that it was a little fucked that the husband didn't actively get her to 'swing' before he married her? I realize that she wasn't completely honest with herself (nor him) but it's not like he doesn't have any responsibility in ending up in this situation.
186
Damn, Dan, do gay dudes have periods? You were awfully harsh on SBOOO. Like bitching out some pregnant teen because she *should have* used protection. The lady is asking for your help, not a moralistic lecture. Yikes, is this what parenthood has done to you??
187
Damn, Dan, do gay dudes have periods? You were awfully harsh on SBOOO. Like bitching out some pregnant teen because she *should have* used protection. The lady is asking for your help, not a moralistic lecture. Yikes, is this what parenthood has done to you??
189
SBOOO did it A DOZEN TIMES before deciding it wasn't for her. Sounds like she gave it a fair chance. Dan needs to be as fair to conventional sexuality as unconventional. Poly is not for everyone, just as monogamy is not for everyone.
They are incompatible, yes. But it's not SBOOO's fault anymore than her partner's -- if he was so committed to poly, he could have insisted she try before marriage. He said those vows, too -- nobody made him do it. Now they both have to own their HONEST mistakes.
They are incompatible, yes. But it's not SBOOO's fault anymore than her partner's -- if he was so committed to poly, he could have insisted she try before marriage. He said those vows, too -- nobody made him do it. Now they both have to own their HONEST mistakes.
190
None of us can possibly get an accurate view of SBOOO's situation from this one letter. All we can say is that she didn't try it before they got married, and that makes both her and her husband kind of dumb.
Dan, I know you were trying to balance the view of conventional therapists, but coming down so hard on SBOOO makes you look like a hypocrite. IMHO you should take the high road and treat vanilla and kinky types the same.
Dan, I know you were trying to balance the view of conventional therapists, but coming down so hard on SBOOO makes you look like a hypocrite. IMHO you should take the high road and treat vanilla and kinky types the same.
191
I totally agree with the advise you gave, however I was just wondering how some of the guys would feel if the shoe were on the other foot. Poly woman, monogamous man?
Which is the marriage I'm in.
As a poly woman, I listened to my husband, and decided that I loved him more than I love sex with other people.
Not that I agree with SBOO but there are compromises, if both partners are willing.
by the way. happily married for 10 years. no slip ups
Which is the marriage I'm in.
As a poly woman, I listened to my husband, and decided that I loved him more than I love sex with other people.
Not that I agree with SBOO but there are compromises, if both partners are willing.
by the way. happily married for 10 years. no slip ups
192
Not exploring a prominent sexual fetish before marriage is about as stupid as staying a virgin 'til your wedding day. They should get equal blame for both assuming the other would fall in line.
193
What if her husband was really into anal (I know, what a crazy fantasy!) She's never tried it, but he told her how much he loves it and how important it is to his sex life. She says she'll give it a go, but then... doesn't. They never get around to it. She's turned on by the idea, interested, but tentative, and it never happens. And yet they're still having sex, and he seems fine – fine enough to marry her without ever having had anal sex with her. So how incredibly important can it be, right? Anyway, she tries it a dozen times, like she promised, and dislikes it.
So was she lying about being open to trying it? Was he stupid for not emphasizing how important it was t o him (so important he couldn't possibly marry someone who didn't share his tastes)?
So was she lying about being open to trying it? Was he stupid for not emphasizing how important it was t o him (so important he couldn't possibly marry someone who didn't share his tastes)?
194
Just reading the first ten comments posted in response to SBOOO, I find it utterly ridiculous the assumptions made in the comments that followed. First of all, I feel that the majority of the comments result from stereotyping the mass of females. Statements like, "Women need to be important enough to incite a change in their partners.", "Women strive to control the relationship.", "Women always make false promises in hopes that circumstances will change in the future." It's wrong to judge her based on the fact she has a pussy. Now let me tell you something about the biochemistry about what we humans feel as love.
Physical and emotional love, both strongly linked by a set of chemical reactions that occur in our brains. Love is all about your brain purposely making you feel irrational in the hopes that you may just well reproduce. Now those of you who have been in love, who hasn't made poor choices, who hasn't had unrealistic thoughts? Idealization is the foundation of romantic love. Obviously they both idealized the situation due to the mass amounts of dopamine and serotonin their brains were pumping out in each others presence. Good news to the both of them; the chemistry behind "falling in love" lasts in the realm of about two to three years. (Doesn't this sound like a familiar extent of time for your own personal relationships?) After that the people who actually stay with each other for decades are those who complement the other emotionally, physically, enjoying the others company, and in some cases spiritually. To judge her (and him) for marrying someone they loved is absurd, marriages are tough with or without high fidelity and i doubt after making that sort of commitment the two of them were unaware of the possible obstacles down the road. But since they obviously do not meet the criteria of a love for the decades then I would advice her and him to enjoy the marriage and the relationship as long as they feel passionate about the other, and as long as they can tolerate compromise, because it doesn't last long, and it doesn't happen often in ones life and when it's over it's over.
More...
Physical and emotional love, both strongly linked by a set of chemical reactions that occur in our brains. Love is all about your brain purposely making you feel irrational in the hopes that you may just well reproduce. Now those of you who have been in love, who hasn't made poor choices, who hasn't had unrealistic thoughts? Idealization is the foundation of romantic love. Obviously they both idealized the situation due to the mass amounts of dopamine and serotonin their brains were pumping out in each others presence. Good news to the both of them; the chemistry behind "falling in love" lasts in the realm of about two to three years. (Doesn't this sound like a familiar extent of time for your own personal relationships?) After that the people who actually stay with each other for decades are those who complement the other emotionally, physically, enjoying the others company, and in some cases spiritually. To judge her (and him) for marrying someone they loved is absurd, marriages are tough with or without high fidelity and i doubt after making that sort of commitment the two of them were unaware of the possible obstacles down the road. But since they obviously do not meet the criteria of a love for the decades then I would advice her and him to enjoy the marriage and the relationship as long as they feel passionate about the other, and as long as they can tolerate compromise, because it doesn't last long, and it doesn't happen often in ones life and when it's over it's over.
195
I think people are missing the thrust of the issue here. SBOOO isn't complaining that he wants her to participate and she doesn't - she's complaining that he wants polygamy and she wants monogamy. Yes, she made a go at being a participant and I think it's fair for her to say "not for me, thanks." What is unfair, however, is for her to say "I'm not into it, and therefore you shouldn't be either."
It appears that for him, her participation was negotiable but polygamy was non-negotiable. For her, it appears that what she was willing to "try" was not so much participation but having a non-monogamous partner. Fairly standard miscommunication - each assumed they were negotiating the same thing.
My wife and I had the same experience about something completely different.
Me: I'm flying to Philly with Tom this weekend.
Her: I thought we talked about this already?
Me: About what?
Her: You flying.
Me: I'm not flying the plane, Tom is.
Her: You know what I mean.
Me: We agreed that I wouldn't get my pilot's license. You never said I could never be in a plane with someone else.
Her: I can't believe you.
Me: Look, we fly all the time.
Her: That's different.
Me: He's been flying for 12 years. How is it different?
Her: Look, I don't want to have this conversation with you now.
It appears that for him, her participation was negotiable but polygamy was non-negotiable. For her, it appears that what she was willing to "try" was not so much participation but having a non-monogamous partner. Fairly standard miscommunication - each assumed they were negotiating the same thing.
My wife and I had the same experience about something completely different.
Me: I'm flying to Philly with Tom this weekend.
Her: I thought we talked about this already?
Me: About what?
Her: You flying.
Me: I'm not flying the plane, Tom is.
Her: You know what I mean.
Me: We agreed that I wouldn't get my pilot's license. You never said I could never be in a plane with someone else.
Her: I can't believe you.
Me: Look, we fly all the time.
Her: That's different.
Me: He's been flying for 12 years. How is it different?
Her: Look, I don't want to have this conversation with you now.
196
I know! I know. Different strokes, etc....but my old fashioned male hunger for orgasm combined with a feeling for the natural in life's journey, says orgasm limitation is missing more than a cooperative mate. Should either partner's ego and libido be built on controlling the other's ego/libido? Even with permission. Sounds like more of a dominance issue. What the hell - t'ain't 4me! NH friend of sex
197
regarding: "So ejaculate frequently, guys, or ejaculate rarely, because it would appear that moderation in pursuit of prostate health is no virtue." I laughed so hard when I saw this because I believe this will start a movement among men: they *have* to have sex several times a week.
198
I remember back in the day, you had a column where a girl entered a relationship with a guy with the agreement She would find a girlfriend for them both to share. Like an ass he backed out and said she was "cheating" (what were the rules?) and he would too. You took his side. could it be you got smarter?
199
I too feel bad for sbooo, but she definitely had it coming nlp training that might help you in some way.
200
Um, SBOO didn't just say she was up for exploring. She explored. About a dozen times. And she didn't like. Yeah, sexually incompatible is the reality now, but ya know, he married her before actually establishing that they were compatible, too. This is on BOTH of them.
201
I disagree on the advice to SBOOO -- because it seems like she honestly thought she could handle it and she tried it out, and only then found out she didn't like it. It doesn't make the situation any less messy, but still...
203
THAT WAS TRULY f**KING FUNNY. I JUST RAN ACROSS THIS COLUMN, AND THIS PARTICULAR BLOG WAS NOT ONLY INSENSITIVE, BUT CREATIVELY STRAIGHT-FORWARD TRUTHFULLY! I THOUGHT I WAS MATTER-OF-FACT PERSON, BUT HELL YOU HAVE ME BEAT ALL HANDS DOWN. SBOOO HUSBAND LAID ALL HIS CARDS ON THE TABLE BEFORE THE MARRIAGE, AND SBOOO PREMATURELY AGREED TO SOMETHING SHE NEVER EXPERIENCED. THATS LIKE SAYING OH IM GOING TO TRY HEROIN OR CRACK AND NEVRE GET ADDICTED BECAUSE I CONTROL WHAT WANT AND HOW THINGS TURN OUT, NOT!!!!PEOPLE CHANGE, SITUATIONS CHANGE, AND LOVE IS TOTALLY UNCONTROLLABLE, IN THIS WORLD NOTHING IS CERTAIN AND THATS FOR SURE! LIVE AND LEARN, AND DEFINITELY GET OVER IT!
204
THE MIRENA IUD IS HORRIBLE....PLEASE DONT SUGGEST ANYONE TO GET IT, AND IF THEY ARE SEEKING SO, TO PLEASE GO ONLINE AND READ BOTH PRO AND ANTI VIEWS. MY DR, LIKE MANY OTHERS, TOLD ME IT WAS THE BEST CHOICE AND THE SIDE EFFECTS WERE SLIM TO NONE. YET AS SOON AS I LEFT THE DR'S OFFICE I WAS BLEEDING CRAMPING, AND THROWING UP IF I TOOK JUST THE SMALLEST BITE OF FOODS. CONCURRENTLY, I HAD A FOUL SMELLING BROWNISH DISCHARGE WHICH RUINED MANY OF MY PRIZED LINGERIE.I HAD TO BATHE THREE TIMES A DAY. THEN THE BLOATING FEELING, FACIAL HAIR, ACNE, AND MOOD SWINGS WERE ANOTHER REASON IT HAD TO GO. I HAD THE THING IN FOR THREE MONTHS BEFORE I COULD GET IT TAKEN OUT. WHY SO LONG? WELL THE FIRST COUPLE VISITS THE DR COULDNT FIND IT. SO I HAD TO HAVE IT SURGICALLY REMOVED, WHICH WAS EVEN MORE DEVASTATING. I HAVE HEARD GOOD THINGS ABOUT THE PARAGUARD BUT ONLY BECAUSE IT DOESNT HAVE ANY HORMONES WHICH HIGHLY CONTRIBUTE TO THE SIDE EFFECTS MOST PEOPLE EXPERIENCE WITH THE MIRENA. SO BASICALLY I DONT ADVISE ANYONE TO GET THE MIRENA, AND TRULY BECAUSE IT WAS A WASTE OF MY $1000 THAT I INCURRED GETTING IT IMPLANTED AND REMOVED. P.S ABOUT HAVING ANAL SEX, YEAH YOU WONT GET PREGNANT, BUT YOURE STILL A RISK OF GETTING A STD BEING THAT YOUR BOYFRIEND WHO WE KNOW NOT OR COULD BE TOTALLY FAITHFUL. I SUGGEST YOUR BOYFRIEND GO ONLINE TO FIND A DURABLE CONDOM THAT WILL ALLOW HIM TO HAVE MORE OF A NATURAL FEEL. THEY CAN BE COSTLY, BUT TRUST I RATHER SPEND MONEY ON A QUALITY CONDOM, THAN EXPERIENCE AN STD EVER.
AS FAR AS MS. CALIFORNIA, THE DUMB BLOND SET HERSELF UP FOR THAT BACKLASH, WHICH SHE DESERVINGLY GOT. PEOPLE SHOULD NOT CAST JUDGEMENT AGAINST OTHERS, OR PRESS THEIR BELIEFS ON OTHERS.......SHE WILL NEVER REPRESENT ANY QUALITY OF MISS AMERICA.
AS FAR AS MS. CALIFORNIA, THE DUMB BLOND SET HERSELF UP FOR THAT BACKLASH, WHICH SHE DESERVINGLY GOT. PEOPLE SHOULD NOT CAST JUDGEMENT AGAINST OTHERS, OR PRESS THEIR BELIEFS ON OTHERS.......SHE WILL NEVER REPRESENT ANY QUALITY OF MISS AMERICA.
205
About SBOOO, well he was honest that -swinging- was important for him to have in a relationship. Quite often the appeal to swinging is that you do it as a couple. Swinging and one-sided polygamy are different sexually and emotionally for all parties involved. I, myself enjoy swinging with my partner, but if he told me he wanted to go have sexual experiences on his own, it would be a no-no.
That being said, for someone to pick it apart as far as I just did would have to have very selective thinking. She convinced herself that for him it was with her or not at all and that was obviously not the case.
That being said, for someone to pick it apart as far as I just did would have to have very selective thinking. She convinced herself that for him it was with her or not at all and that was obviously not the case.
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This poor woman...oh dear! I'm a woman who would love to be married to a man like that. I find her lucky. I would love to be married at some point, though I am only 22. I want a companion, but I also love sex, more clearly with men and woman i dont know, nor do i find the need to know them.Sex is sex, love is far and few between; however something that can be found. she didnt find it, she pretended to be something she wasnt, so she felt needed, or wanted. sucks for her, mainly in my eyes because she put someone else through something that wasnt needed for her own selfishness...neat go team!
209
Man, just reviewing a few columns I missed while on vacation last year. Love Dan's advice to "Sex Best One On One." Take it for what it is. I feel bad for the husband who was honest from the onset.
210
Man, just reviewing a few columns I missed while on vacation last year. Love Dan's advice to "Sex Best One On One." Take it for what it is. I feel bad for the husband who was honest from the onset.
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