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Secrets and Lies
February 8, 2012
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Joe Newton
I'm a 21-year-old gay male. My friend "Marcelo" is friends with "Chad." Everyone who meets Chad assumes he's gay. Never had a girlfriend, a dance major, dyes his hair blond/green/purple, got up at 2 a.m. to watch Kate marry William—I could go on. Over four years at college, this situation has gone from funny to sad as we realize he may never come out and could pull a Marcus Bachmann and live a miserable life with a miserable wife. Last night, Marcelo was on Grindr and got a message from a guy who turned out to be Chad! Chad sent a face pic, Marcelo sent a faceless one back, they chatted. It turns out that Chad is experienced enough to know his homosex likes and dislikes and carry on a detailed conversation about them with a guy on Grindr. Should we say something to Chad? Would letting him know he's been outed be the best course of action? Should we have a gayvention?
Closet Case Confusion
Chad hasn't "been outed," CCC, Chad outed himself.
Before Al Gore invented the internet and ruined everything for everyone forever, a college-age closet case had to work up the nerve to visit the campus gay bar if he wanted some dick. (Or visit the cruisey bathroom in the undergraduate library, but let's leave that one alone for now.) The closet case knew he was running a risk—even at the gay bar three towns over—but it was the only way to get some dick. So the pre-Grindr college-age closet case would slip into a gay bar and, after pounding shots in a wildly successful effort to self-medicate against his inhibitions, wind up shirtless on the dance floor making out with some random dude.
There was a code of conduct for friends of closet cases when I was in college—which was, I'm sorry to say, just a couple of years before Grindr came along (cough, cough)—and a section that dealt with dance-floor make-out sessions: If you saw a guy who told you he was straight in class on Friday morning making out with some random dude on the dance floor of the campus gay bar on Friday night (or in the gay bar three towns over), you had a right—no, you had a responsibility—to tap him on the shoulder, smile, and say, "Welcome out, dude."
And if you had engaged in a little subterfuge—if you, say, ducked behind a post when you saw the closet case come in so he wouldn't spot you and flee the gay bar pre–shots/shirtless-make-out-session—that was an understandable impulse and forgivable sin.
What Chad is doing on Grindr—sending out face pics, chatting about his homosex preferences—is the Grindr-era equivalent of making out with a random dude on the dance floor of a campus gay bar. What Marcelo did was the Grindr-era equivalent of ducking behind a post. And now Marcelo has a right—no, a responsibility—to tap Chad on the shoulder and, without any sense of malice or triumph, say, "Welcome out, Chad."
I'm an 18-year-old male who is weird in the way of a bit of crossdressing and pegging. My girlfriend endorses these interests, and I love her for that. Recently, a hot 22-year-old gay guy told me he was interested. I tried to tell him I was in a relationship, but we kissed. It sucked ass. His stubble hurt, he used too much tongue, and I got nothing out of it. Do I tell my girlfriend? I worry that telling will make her worry, and the worry will cause distrust, and that distrust will ruin a great three-year run.
Now Over Transient Bisexual Interests
First, after reading your letter, NOTBI, I was left wondering what would've gone down (you perhaps?) if the gay dude you made out with—after you tried so very, very hard to tell him you were in a relationship—didn't have a rough beard and use too much tongue.
Second, a girlfriend who endorses your interest in crossdressing and pegging is a girlfriend who might have endorsed your interest in a boy-on-boy make-out session. (Particularly if she could watch.) If you'd had the decency to ask for her permission, NOTBI, you wouldn't now be in the position of having to ask for her forgiveness.
Third, I think you should discuss this with your girlfriend, but I don't think you must. You're 18, you're not married, you (briefly) kissed a boy, and you didn't like it. If you think coming clean would destroy your relationship and you're sure it's never going to happen again, stuff this one up your memory hole.
Fourth, if you do talk with your girlfriend, NOTBI, you might not wanna emphasize the beard/tongue details. Not unless you want your girlfriend wondering the same thing I did after reading your letter: Maybe if it had been a different guy, with a different tongue, a lot more than his tongue would've wound up in your mouth.
I (middle-aged, married, straight guy) recently attended a boring business conference where I ran into an old friend (middle-aged, married, straight guy). He came to my room for a moment, noticed a camera on a small tripod on the desk, and asked what I was shooting. Emboldened by a few beers, I told him about my hotel room routine: shoot myself naked and masturbating then upload pics to an amateur exhibitionist website. Since I had shared my little secret, he shared his: He gets naked in hotel rooms and masturbates while spanking himself with his belt. You can see where this is going. I whacked his ass while he took photos of me. There was no sucking or fucking—no physical contact at all—but his Catholic guilt came out afterward, and he started going on about how he had just had gay sex and cheated on his wife. To me, it was masturbation with a few toys (camera, belt, and, okay, person). So here's the question: Did we have gay sex and cheat on our wives? Or was this just a wank with a few toys?
Spank And Wank
Two guys beating off in a hotel room? Sounds pretty gay to me. I mean, if a woman offered to help me out with my solo hotel room routine—mostly blogging and watching MSNBC, I'm sad to report—I'd take a pass, as that scene would be entirely too straight for me to get aroused.
Now, it's possible that your enjoyment of exhibitionism is so pure that the gender of the person or persons involved is irrelevant. That's not the case with my kinks, SAW, nor does it appear to be the case with your new spank buddy. And considering your friend's kink (punishment) and his faith (Catholic), I'm thinkin' the odds that your buddy has a few forbidden desires—perhaps gay ones—that led to his erotic obsession with being punished seem... oh, I dunno... kinda high. It may not have been gay for you, but it was gay for him.
As for whether what went down in that hotel room constitutes cheating, SAW, show your wife the pictures and ask her.
CONFIDENTIAL TO KOMEN: Nice to see that Karen Handel's out, but you need to get rid of Nancy Brinker, too. And to my readers: Planned Parenthood is under relentless political attack, and even a small, symbolic donation makes a difference: tinyurl.com/ppsavlove.
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
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1
Great article Dan! Peeps, PP is under attack because women's autonomy is being questioned by crazy men. Kindly vocally, proudly & loudly support a woman's right to her own body any and everywhere - paper, online, to friends and fam. Thanks :)
2
Don't agree on the first letter. The Internet isn't a bar. You don't expect as much anonymity in a bar as on the Internet. It's a bad analogy.
3
@2 people who expect anonymity from the Internet shouldn't sent out face pics. Duh.
Re SAW, if he wants to be unrecognizable on the internet, I guess beating the photographer while he takes the photos is a good way to achieve that!
Re SAW, if he wants to be unrecognizable on the internet, I guess beating the photographer while he takes the photos is a good way to achieve that!
4
@1, While Nancy Brinker might appear to be a transvestite, I have been told she is, in fact, a woman. PP is not being attacked by crazy MEN but by crazy men and women.
9
I wanna know if Chad is doing anything that constitutes actively trying to pretend that he is straight. From the description, it sounds like the answer is no, he isn't trying to be anything except be Chad. In that case, shut up and mind your own business. Maybe he hasn't brought up the subject of anything sex- or orientation-related in your presence simply because you aren't a candidate participant.
11
In re CCC: Dan, you could mention the background of the old gay etiquette. When you tapped him on the shoulder, you were more revealing that YOU were at the gay bar. So the tap on the shoulder was along the lines of "we're in this together", because you were handing him as much life-threatening blackmail material as you had had on him. Weapons of Mutually Fabulous Destruction, as it were, except that outing was not fabulous even when I did it in the 1980s.
So if you're going to follow the old etiquette all the way, "Marcelo" would out "Chad" in gay private, but when around him in public, keeps a straight face and doesn't out "Chad".
But in these enlightened times, and God's teeth and toenails! a dance major of all things!, later trying a gayvention at need does sound tempting.
So if you're going to follow the old etiquette all the way, "Marcelo" would out "Chad" in gay private, but when around him in public, keeps a straight face and doesn't out "Chad".
But in these enlightened times, and God's teeth and toenails! a dance major of all things!, later trying a gayvention at need does sound tempting.
12
@9 excellent point. It's one thing if Chad talks all the time about his girlfriend in Canada ("her name is Alberta, she lives in Vancouver")...it's another if he just doesn't like talking about his sex life with his friends. Though either way, there's not much harm in letting him know he inadvertently came on to his friend.
13
@Confidential to Komen: Done! Thanks, Dan. And Brinker's GOT TO GO- talk about "uptight xtian face"! Yikes- too scary.
14
I think NOTBI can pretty legitimately question his attraction to guys if stubble is that big of a turn off. I mean most men get it hours after shaving, it's not some rare condition. Seems like it's kinda part of the package.
15
I get the idea behind wanting rid of Brinker but come on. She founded the organization. It's named after her dead sister. I don't think kicking her out is the right thing.
18
@Confidential to Komen: I'd settle for them at least doubling, if not tripling, their annual grants to PP. Every bit helps but $700K is nothing compared to their total revenues and what they pay themselves in salaries.
19
@9 I disagree. I think Dan's advice for was spot on. Chad's friends shouldn't have to pretend that they don't know what they already know (and have suspected for a long time). Since Chad already outed himself by sending a picture of his face, CCC and Marcelo could simply let the Chad know they know he's gay and they support him anyway. This might be the push he needs to finally be honest with himself and his friends.
20
Chad might not actually be out, but it's not like he's been living a lie and pretending to be straight. He hasn't been leading anyone on. He hasn't been using a girlfriend or wife. He sounds like a nice young man, only in his early 20s, taking his time about his sexuality and going at his own pace. For that reason, I don't think anyone else has any business invading his privacy and outing him in any big public way. A tap on the shoulder? A pleasant conversation? Sure, friends do that, and if that's what's meant by outing someone, nothing wrong with that. But draw the line at presuming to know more about someone than he knows himself. I'm disturbed by this note coming from a third person. CCC wrote, not Marcelo, which means that CCC and Marcelo have been talking about Chad behind his back and discussing what they think would be best for Chad. This may not be nasty gossip, but it is gossip, and that's generally not good for relationships.
21
I sent this as an email to Dan, but I thought I would share it with the comments section as well. This is one of the trailers I saw at a major theater in Bangkok before they showed Underworld. And if any movie fits with the theme of it gets better...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u96W4iKb3…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u96W4iKb3…
22
@12, I'm with you, maybe Chad doesn't want to talk about his sexual exploits. Never understood why guys did that, we all know it's 90% bullshit.
24
I would like to take this time to apologize for MN letting Santorum anywhere near Washington. MN has a caucus system that is just plain exclusive and only draws true believers. I don’t know any Republicans that actually went and I know a lot of politically minded individuals. My Republican friends don’t feel enough passion for anyone to spend 4+ hours on a weeknight; except the anti-abortion crowd.
We may be the state that elected Bachman and are actually voting on banning gay marriage soon (so embarrassing), but most of us are well educated, common sense, hard workers who believe in the American dream. More women vote in MN than men so Santorum with his 1512 beliefs about birth control and gays will never win. Also, MN hasn’t voted Republican for president since Reagan’s first term. But thanks, Republican party for making sure that Obama will definitely get his 2nd term to finish what he started, now that he is finally standing his ground.
We may be the state that elected Bachman and are actually voting on banning gay marriage soon (so embarrassing), but most of us are well educated, common sense, hard workers who believe in the American dream. More women vote in MN than men so Santorum with his 1512 beliefs about birth control and gays will never win. Also, MN hasn’t voted Republican for president since Reagan’s first term. But thanks, Republican party for making sure that Obama will definitely get his 2nd term to finish what he started, now that he is finally standing his ground.
25
There's no where else to really announce this on The Stranger (for now), but I'd like to state for the record that I've never been embarrassed to acknowledge that I grew up in Colorado, until this morning. Colorado Springs, alas.
I had no idea the frothy mixture would be such a hit in my home state. Ugh, the state's GOP caucus is covered with santorum.
I had no idea the frothy mixture would be such a hit in my home state. Ugh, the state's GOP caucus is covered with santorum.
27
Great article, I laughed a lot. News flash folks: If you have to ask Dan if you cheated on your sig. other, you cheated on your sig. other!
28
For the first time since around 1998, Dan posted three responses to three letters and I actually agree with all of them! Mazel tov Dan; we must finally be aligned with the stars or sumthin!
I just have 2 questions: if NOTBI wasn't interested in kissing a dude, why did he?
And: I don't understand Dan's Al Gore reference; could someone please explain it? Thanks!
I just have 2 questions: if NOTBI wasn't interested in kissing a dude, why did he?
And: I don't understand Dan's Al Gore reference; could someone please explain it? Thanks!
29
Dan is spot on about cheating being in the eye of the partner, regarding SAW, but I think the orientation of any sex is determined almost exclusively by what's going on inside the heads of the participants, not by any external factors. This does allow for a situation where it is possible SAW's friend had gay sex, while SAW did not.
I do think the more interesting question is, given where SAW's friend's head is at, what happens next, and what should SAW be doing to best manage any further ramifications of his trip.
I do think the more interesting question is, given where SAW's friend's head is at, what happens next, and what should SAW be doing to best manage any further ramifications of his trip.
30
@28: Al Gore was one of the earliest and most vehement congressional supporters of high-speed communications technology, including ARPANET, the defense precursor to the Internet. He didn't literally invent it, but he could justifiably be one of the midwives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_gore#Hou…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_gore#Sec…
Dan is jokingly referencing the idea that "Al Gore invented the Internet," but he could just as easily have said "Before the Internet was invented" without a name attached.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_gore#Hou…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_gore#Sec…
Dan is jokingly referencing the idea that "Al Gore invented the Internet," but he could just as easily have said "Before the Internet was invented" without a name attached.
31
Ah, Colorado. It would be nice to say I expected better of the Republicans here, but it would be a lie. Sorry, world!
33
PP is not the only pro-choice organization out there fighting for reproductive freedom and other rights! Support your LOCAL OR STATEWIDE NARAL office if you want to ensure your $$ is going towards the political fight to elect progressive legislators and keep anti-choice, anti-gay, hateful law off the books.
prochoicemissouri.org.
prochoicemissouri.org.
34
I think all those posting here (wondering if "Chad" is out of the closet, but just doesn't like talking about his sexual exploits) are missing the point. He's telling his friends that HE ISN'T GAY! That's not the same thing as not talking about who he's having sex with or what he does it bed; it's lying about who he is! Very strange, especially if the people he's lying to are supposedly his friends. For the record, you can say "I'm gay," without adding "I got gang-banged by the soccer team last night."
36
I'm with # 20. Good lord, maybe Chad just thought he didn't have to out himself to his already gay friends. Sounds like this 3rd party someone is trying to stir an empty drama pot. Get over it, Chad is.
37
Kind of surprised you didn't suggest to NOTBI that maybe he's...not bi. I expect you may be gunshy of backlash from the oh so jumpy bi audience who always accuse you of bi denial, but it's not inconsistent that a light crossplay and pegging fan can be hetero ;) Instead you cautioned that it might just have not been the right guy.
Maybe he's just a straight dude who likes frilly things and anal stimulation. It happens.
Maybe he's just a straight dude who likes frilly things and anal stimulation. It happens.
38
How likely is it that someone ganked Chad's photo to use on their Grindr? Did Marcelo verify that it was him? Either way. Marcelo needs to talk to Chad, though.
39
@37, if NOTBI were totally straight, I would think he would have said "I'm straight" to the hot gay guy. But he didn't. He kissed him. He also never says in his letter that he's straight. He sounds bi-curious, to me, despite his claim to be over it and "NOTBI."
41
@19: "Chad's friends shouldn't have to pretend that they don't know what they already know (and have suspected for a long time)."
You and I agree on this. I just think that his friends should treat it with the same matter-of-fact lack of concern that they would any of their straight friends. I don't see that an "ZOMG, you are so out, finally! It's about time you admitted it!" conversation is going to accomplish anything. It's not like he's trying to pretend he is straight.
"Since Chad already outed himself by sending a picture of his face, CCC and Marcelo could simply let the Chad know they know he's gay and they support him anyway."
I also agree with you on this, to a point. If Marcelo wants to let him know that was him on Grindr, go for it. Might be the start of something great. On the other hand, if he doesn't want to be a participant in Chad's sex life, he should mind his own business. He might still say that it was him on Grindr, even if he doesn't want to play. But I don't see anything in the letter that would warrant a gaytervention.
"This might be the push he needs to finally be honest with himself and his friends. "
What do you mean, "honest?" What exactly has he done to be anything other than "honest?" Be specific. Letter writer clucks about "miserable life with a miserable wife." Hello? CHAD ISN'T DATING GIRLS. He's not bloody likely to make one miserable that way, now is he?
You and I agree on this. I just think that his friends should treat it with the same matter-of-fact lack of concern that they would any of their straight friends. I don't see that an "ZOMG, you are so out, finally! It's about time you admitted it!" conversation is going to accomplish anything. It's not like he's trying to pretend he is straight.
"Since Chad already outed himself by sending a picture of his face, CCC and Marcelo could simply let the Chad know they know he's gay and they support him anyway."
I also agree with you on this, to a point. If Marcelo wants to let him know that was him on Grindr, go for it. Might be the start of something great. On the other hand, if he doesn't want to be a participant in Chad's sex life, he should mind his own business. He might still say that it was him on Grindr, even if he doesn't want to play. But I don't see anything in the letter that would warrant a gaytervention.
"This might be the push he needs to finally be honest with himself and his friends. "
What do you mean, "honest?" What exactly has he done to be anything other than "honest?" Be specific. Letter writer clucks about "miserable life with a miserable wife." Hello? CHAD ISN'T DATING GIRLS. He's not bloody likely to make one miserable that way, now is he?
42
CCC here. Dunno if it's normal for writers to add comments, but I'd like to clarify a few points. 1) Chad is actively lying. He tells people he's straight if he's asked, and talks about wanting to date/sleep with girls in a "have I mentioned I'm heterosexual today" sort of way. He might be bi, but he's definitely not straight. 2) At no point were we ever going to publicly out him. I was talking about whether we should even mention to him that we know.
43
Tell Planned Parenthood to get Paypal on their donation page, and they will get much more. People are sick of giving out their credit card everywhere, and Paypal works well. I'm not associated with them except as a customer, and I have skipped making donations and even buying things when Paypal is not offered.
44
@ 41, avast: Well said, what you wrote:
"I just think that his friends should treat it with the same matter-of-fact lack of concern that they would any of their straight friends."
And
"If Marcelo wants to let him know that was him on Grindr, go for it. Might be the start of something great. On the other hand, if he doesn't want to be a participant in Chad's sex life, he should mind his own business."
I agree fully. Coming out is totally a personal decision. All it really is is just allowing yourself to not have to suffer with internal unease anymore. Honesty is honesty, it's a big wide world.
I also agree about the matter-of-fact thing and how it shouldn't have to matter who is or who isn't this or that. No one ever really asks a straight person if they're straight, and if so, why should it matter (unless Marcelo wants to hook up with Chad. Talk to Chad *privately*, and *with respect* to his feelings and current place in life. A little listening and empathy goes a long way :-) .)
"I just think that his friends should treat it with the same matter-of-fact lack of concern that they would any of their straight friends."
And
"If Marcelo wants to let him know that was him on Grindr, go for it. Might be the start of something great. On the other hand, if he doesn't want to be a participant in Chad's sex life, he should mind his own business."
I agree fully. Coming out is totally a personal decision. All it really is is just allowing yourself to not have to suffer with internal unease anymore. Honesty is honesty, it's a big wide world.
I also agree about the matter-of-fact thing and how it shouldn't have to matter who is or who isn't this or that. No one ever really asks a straight person if they're straight, and if so, why should it matter (unless Marcelo wants to hook up with Chad. Talk to Chad *privately*, and *with respect* to his feelings and current place in life. A little listening and empathy goes a long way :-) .)
45
@ 41, avast: Well said, what you wrote:
"I just think that his friends should treat it with the same matter-of-fact lack of concern that they would any of their straight friends."
Exactly. Thank him for being honest, if it goes there, and congratulate him on his bravery and commitment to himself to want more as a quality of life.
"If Marcelo wants to let him know that was him on Grindr, go for it. Might be the start of something great. On the other hand, if he doesn't want to be a participant in Chad's sex life, he should mind his own business."
I agree fully. Coming out is totally a personal decision. All it really is is just allowing yourself to not have to suffer with internal unease anymore. Honesty is honesty, it's a big wide world.
I also agree about the matter-of-fact thing and how it shouldn't have to matter who is or who isn't this or that. No one ever really asks a straight person if they're straight, and if so, why should it matter (unless Marcelo wants to hook up with Chad. Talk to Chad *privately*, and *with respect* to his feelings and current place in life. A little listening and empathy goes a long way.) :)
"I just think that his friends should treat it with the same matter-of-fact lack of concern that they would any of their straight friends."
Exactly. Thank him for being honest, if it goes there, and congratulate him on his bravery and commitment to himself to want more as a quality of life.
"If Marcelo wants to let him know that was him on Grindr, go for it. Might be the start of something great. On the other hand, if he doesn't want to be a participant in Chad's sex life, he should mind his own business."
I agree fully. Coming out is totally a personal decision. All it really is is just allowing yourself to not have to suffer with internal unease anymore. Honesty is honesty, it's a big wide world.
I also agree about the matter-of-fact thing and how it shouldn't have to matter who is or who isn't this or that. No one ever really asks a straight person if they're straight, and if so, why should it matter (unless Marcelo wants to hook up with Chad. Talk to Chad *privately*, and *with respect* to his feelings and current place in life. A little listening and empathy goes a long way.) :)
47
CCC @42 - Yes, letter writers sometimes contribute to the discussion, and the extra information is generally helpful, so, welcome!
One issue in your letter is that you write: "Should we say something to Chad?...Should we have a gayvention?"
Since Marcelo is friends with Chad, and Marcelo is the one who got Chad's face pic, it makes sense for Marcelo to tell Chad what happened. I don't see how this involves you.
One issue in your letter is that you write: "Should we say something to Chad?...Should we have a gayvention?"
Since Marcelo is friends with Chad, and Marcelo is the one who got Chad's face pic, it makes sense for Marcelo to tell Chad what happened. I don't see how this involves you.
48
@47 You're absolutely right. It doesn't. None of this involves me directly. The reason why I know about it at all is because Marcelo asked me to weigh in. I've been out longer than he has (he's bi and private, it's why he would never think of outing anyone) and have more experience with the tumultuous experience of coming out and all the emotions that go along with it.
Maybe some backstory on Marcelo would be helpful. Marcelo and I are very good friends, and lived together (platonic) for two years, though we don't anymore. He told me he was straight (he never lied, but he did actively omit information) the entire time I knew him, and I never doubted his word, though plenty of people thought I was crazy for believing him. I heard he occasionally hooked up with guys through the grapevine, and when I asked him about it, he confirmed it. There was no crazy confession or big emotional scene, it was me saying "I know" and him saying "Ok that's great". So I have some experience with the gentle confrontation that went really well, and that's all he or I is thinking about doing with Chad.
Whatever happens, I doubt I'll be a part of the conversation. And no one thinks Chad should start singing "A Chorus Line" from the rooftops. All of his friends, myself included, just want to let him know that we're here and we support him, whatever he chooses to do.
Maybe some backstory on Marcelo would be helpful. Marcelo and I are very good friends, and lived together (platonic) for two years, though we don't anymore. He told me he was straight (he never lied, but he did actively omit information) the entire time I knew him, and I never doubted his word, though plenty of people thought I was crazy for believing him. I heard he occasionally hooked up with guys through the grapevine, and when I asked him about it, he confirmed it. There was no crazy confession or big emotional scene, it was me saying "I know" and him saying "Ok that's great". So I have some experience with the gentle confrontation that went really well, and that's all he or I is thinking about doing with Chad.
Whatever happens, I doubt I'll be a part of the conversation. And no one thinks Chad should start singing "A Chorus Line" from the rooftops. All of his friends, myself included, just want to let him know that we're here and we support him, whatever he chooses to do.
49
@ 47, Hi EricaP: I agree with what you said, especially this part:
"Since Marcelo is friends with Chad, and Marcelo is the one who got Chad's face pic, it makes sense for Marcelo to tell Chad what happened. I don't see how this involves you."
Indeed. Marcelo and Chad should just talk privately and be delicate about it, if need be. Just listen, be a friend and be supportive, no matter what. Even if Marcelo should wind up having some sort of fling with Chad.
Yeah. I'm with you about the sense of Marcelo approaching Chad 'cos Chad sent a face pic. It levels the playing field much more for the subject to be broached, carefully and with respect.
"Since Marcelo is friends with Chad, and Marcelo is the one who got Chad's face pic, it makes sense for Marcelo to tell Chad what happened. I don't see how this involves you."
Indeed. Marcelo and Chad should just talk privately and be delicate about it, if need be. Just listen, be a friend and be supportive, no matter what. Even if Marcelo should wind up having some sort of fling with Chad.
Yeah. I'm with you about the sense of Marcelo approaching Chad 'cos Chad sent a face pic. It levels the playing field much more for the subject to be broached, carefully and with respect.
50
@34: "He's telling his friends that HE ISN'T GAY!"
Really? Where does the letter say that?
"For the record, you can say "I'm gay," without adding "I got gang-banged by the soccer team last night."
For the record, I don't recall ever having told my friends "I'm straight," let alone anything about last night's sex positions. It just doesn't come up in conversation.
In his case, he acts stereotypically gay, and everyone he comes in contact with assumes he is gay. In other words, people's perceptions are in alignment with reality. So, what exactly needs announcing?
Really? Where does the letter say that?
"For the record, you can say "I'm gay," without adding "I got gang-banged by the soccer team last night."
For the record, I don't recall ever having told my friends "I'm straight," let alone anything about last night's sex positions. It just doesn't come up in conversation.
In his case, he acts stereotypically gay, and everyone he comes in contact with assumes he is gay. In other words, people's perceptions are in alignment with reality. So, what exactly needs announcing?
51
Conservative Wall Street Journal columnist/blogger James Taranto has been liberally using Rick's last name in humorous ways, even though he has never mentioned (i don't think) he internet meaning of the name.
Everything's Coming Up Santorum
http://goo.gl/pXDtV
Everything's Coming Up Santorum
http://goo.gl/pXDtV
52
CCC @42,
How would you treat Chad if he were out?
Treat him that way, and don't stress him out by asking. You can talk about how much better it is to be open in your sexuality, and how you are always available to help him if he needs it. Lead by example.
Peace.
How would you treat Chad if he were out?
Treat him that way, and don't stress him out by asking. You can talk about how much better it is to be open in your sexuality, and how you are always available to help him if he needs it. Lead by example.
Peace.
53
Conservative Wall Street Journal columnist/blogger James Taranto has been liberally using Rick's last name in humorous ways, even though he has never mentioned (i don't think) he internet meaning of the name.
Everything's Coming Up Santorum
http://goo.gl/pXDtV
Everything's Coming Up Santorum
http://goo.gl/pXDtV
54
@50 via @42: "Really? Where does the letter say that?"
Whoops. Says that in comment 42. I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification.
Now I want to know what Chad's reasons for hiding are, if you know them. Reason being that even intending to never publicly out someone, once a group of people know something, word gets out if you are not exceedingly careful. Be very wary of saying or doing something that might come back to bite Chad, like maybe get his college funds cut off.
Bottom line, however, is I think Dan's last line of advice still applies. If anybody needs to mention anything, it's Marcelo. Marcelo can go a little further if he wants, and mention that as far as the friends are concerned, not only is it a complete non-issue, it's non-news. But I wouldn't subject him to a group "intervention" of any sort.
Whoops. Says that in comment 42. I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification.
Now I want to know what Chad's reasons for hiding are, if you know them. Reason being that even intending to never publicly out someone, once a group of people know something, word gets out if you are not exceedingly careful. Be very wary of saying or doing something that might come back to bite Chad, like maybe get his college funds cut off.
Bottom line, however, is I think Dan's last line of advice still applies. If anybody needs to mention anything, it's Marcelo. Marcelo can go a little further if he wants, and mention that as far as the friends are concerned, not only is it a complete non-issue, it's non-news. But I wouldn't subject him to a group "intervention" of any sort.
55
btw, I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere, but I like this headline on CBC:
Santorum tops in 3 Republican caucus votes
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/…
Santorum tops in 3 Republican caucus votes
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/…
56
Regarding kissing the guy and he didn't like it: when I was in my late teens/early twenties, things went like this: I made out with a girl around the same time as a boy, had crushes on other girls, but decided I was straight (I don't remember this too well, but have a copy of the letter I wrote her where I said this). Then a couple of years later, in college, I felt attractions to gals and slept with a guy who did nothing for me and decided I was gay (Also, I was at a college where it was cool to be gay--the LUG thing). Then, maybe a year later, I realized I kept thinking, dreaming, fantasizing about cock, and hooked up with a bi guy and started having sex with guys again. Slept with both girls and guys. Married a man, now for 20 years. Crushed on and made out with girls since then, even a brief relationship with a woman on the side. Now, about 30 years later, I have enough accumulated experience to declare myself bisexual. But in the beginning, I generalized from one experience, when that reaction did not predict the future. Now, the LW may simply be straight, but one experience may not be enough to be sure.
57
....please Dan do something the stupid and
politically UNFIT people south of our border
still think that MR. Santorum is presidential
material! It would be a total shame for the
whole world and a " don't make me laugh..."
chorus for the Russians and Chinese!!!
It's hard to believe he is in the race, even harder
to hear that he won some support!!
politically UNFIT people south of our border
still think that MR. Santorum is presidential
material! It would be a total shame for the
whole world and a " don't make me laugh..."
chorus for the Russians and Chinese!!!
It's hard to believe he is in the race, even harder
to hear that he won some support!!
59
It's official. I'm reading Dan Savage's column more than ever these days for one simple reason. The comments are the best fracking part!
60
Can anyone even IMAGINE what would happen to this country (and, come to think of it, the entire globe) if Santorum were president? As Penny on "Big Bang Theory" would say, Holy crap on a cracker...
61
I said originally that Chad wasn't living a lie by presenting himself as straight. CCC corrected me (all of us) by saying that no, Chad regularly says he's straight and says he'd like to date girls. So let me rethink this and .... nope, same conclusion.
If a gay man is enough of a hypocrite as to make gay-hating remarks while having sex with guys under (supposed) anonymity, then out him. Expose him for the cheat and fraud that he is.
If a gay man has targeted a particular woman for dating, a relationship, or marriage, then do the kind thing and tell her what you know so she can make an informed decision about the future of the relationship.
If a young man is saying one thing, fantasizing about another, getting on a (supposedly) anonymous online venue, and dyeing his hair mardi gras colors, then let him think about and explore his sexuality at his own pace, in his own time. Don't tell him what you've decided about his sexual orientation. If you're friends and decide to open a discussion about coming out in general or about how you personally came out, or about how you knew you were gay, or about some of the doubts you had, or about how you sometimes thought about a life married to a woman, or about anything else that's true, fine. Talk about that. But don't presume to know more about him than he knows himself. It's not nice.
If a gay man is enough of a hypocrite as to make gay-hating remarks while having sex with guys under (supposed) anonymity, then out him. Expose him for the cheat and fraud that he is.
If a gay man has targeted a particular woman for dating, a relationship, or marriage, then do the kind thing and tell her what you know so she can make an informed decision about the future of the relationship.
If a young man is saying one thing, fantasizing about another, getting on a (supposedly) anonymous online venue, and dyeing his hair mardi gras colors, then let him think about and explore his sexuality at his own pace, in his own time. Don't tell him what you've decided about his sexual orientation. If you're friends and decide to open a discussion about coming out in general or about how you personally came out, or about how you knew you were gay, or about some of the doubts you had, or about how you sometimes thought about a life married to a woman, or about anything else that's true, fine. Talk about that. But don't presume to know more about him than he knows himself. It's not nice.
62
@60 It couldn't be any worse than the turn the country took under Obama. I'm not a Santorum supporter by any stretch.
@24. Ditto for MO. Our primary meant nothing yesterday. GOP will caucus in a few weeks and assign delegates. I suspect the majority will be for Romney.
@24. Ditto for MO. Our primary meant nothing yesterday. GOP will caucus in a few weeks and assign delegates. I suspect the majority will be for Romney.
63
I tuned into Savage Love today just to see what was being said about Santorum leaking all over 3 states. Thanks for the laughs, unfortunately we need to get rid of this Bigot. So for all those outside of MO, I'd like to apologize for our states vote. Most of us did not vote because our primary means nothing. GOP will caucus in a few weeks and assign delegates. But keep the Santorum jokes coming, it gives me hope this guy will be flushed
64
@11: Tim, I love that you refer to "the old gay etiquette" of "the 1980's". Dude, I'm so old, (but young at heart), I think the 1980's are still in the future. You made me lol! Thanks!
Dan, Congratulations on your 1,OOO,OOOth. comment!
Dan, Congratulations on your 1,OOO,OOOth. comment!
65
SAW -- "Is it cheating?"
Dan's reply is dead on, but it's a bit uninformative for someone so clueless. Whether you cheated on your wife has nothing whatsoever to do with what anyone thinks except for your wife.
What is it with monogamists? Far too often you guys assume that The Rules are universal, you don't bother to negotiate, you don't talk with your partners about what each of you wants, you can't put in the effort to learn what matters to your partners, and then you act all surprised and look for absolution when you go outside the relationship for something that you (against all of human experience and knowledge) expected never to do or want. Why on earth do you think Dan would know what matters to your wife?
Also, if you don't know for sure that it isn't cheating, then you chose to be a CPOS. Start begging for forgiveness (which, incidentally, is not only the only ethical course of action, but also your best negotiating tool).
Dan's reply is dead on, but it's a bit uninformative for someone so clueless. Whether you cheated on your wife has nothing whatsoever to do with what anyone thinks except for your wife.
What is it with monogamists? Far too often you guys assume that The Rules are universal, you don't bother to negotiate, you don't talk with your partners about what each of you wants, you can't put in the effort to learn what matters to your partners, and then you act all surprised and look for absolution when you go outside the relationship for something that you (against all of human experience and knowledge) expected never to do or want. Why on earth do you think Dan would know what matters to your wife?
Also, if you don't know for sure that it isn't cheating, then you chose to be a CPOS. Start begging for forgiveness (which, incidentally, is not only the only ethical course of action, but also your best negotiating tool).
66
Good Morning, Everyone :) .
@ 52, Married In MA: I love what you wrote:
"Treat him that way, and don't stress him out by asking. You can talk about how much better it is to be open in your sexuality, and how you are always available to help him if he needs it. Lead by example.
Peace."
Absolutely true. Just being at peace with yourself and the world around you, really.. Personally, it doesn't matter to me whatsoever what someone's sexuality is. I take people on a one-on-one basis in making character assessments.
People, especially the bigots and lowly douches of the world coughahemsantorum, forget how fucking brave, tough and intense it always somehow is to step up and take your life back in your own hands.
No matter what anyone's truth is, I always pay props to someone who is honest, succinct about it and then keeps it moving. The way it should be :) . It's the tension in the air of unease that is ammeliorated once you find self-resolution.
Hey: it's cool to take the road less traveled and have the strength-constructing mojo you get from giving yourself the best you deserve: peace, truth and happiness.
I'm totally with you Married In MA.
Thanks.
@ 52, Married In MA: I love what you wrote:
"Treat him that way, and don't stress him out by asking. You can talk about how much better it is to be open in your sexuality, and how you are always available to help him if he needs it. Lead by example.
Peace."
Absolutely true. Just being at peace with yourself and the world around you, really.. Personally, it doesn't matter to me whatsoever what someone's sexuality is. I take people on a one-on-one basis in making character assessments.
People, especially the bigots and lowly douches of the world coughahemsantorum, forget how fucking brave, tough and intense it always somehow is to step up and take your life back in your own hands.
No matter what anyone's truth is, I always pay props to someone who is honest, succinct about it and then keeps it moving. The way it should be :) . It's the tension in the air of unease that is ammeliorated once you find self-resolution.
Hey: it's cool to take the road less traveled and have the strength-constructing mojo you get from giving yourself the best you deserve: peace, truth and happiness.
I'm totally with you Married In MA.
Thanks.
68
I think Dan focused too much on the tongue and stubble issues. It's just as likely that NOTBI was turned off by the stubble and tongue because he wasn't attracted to the guy in the first place, as that he wasn't attracted to the guy because of the stubble and tongue. After all, we all overlook all sorts of things that would be awkward, unpleasant, or outright gross without the component of sexual attraction - invasion of our personal bubbles, getting other people's sweat rubbed all over our bodies, prolonged exposure to body odor, etc. *Any* amount of tongue in your mouth is too much if you're not attracted to the person it's attached to.
Let's keep in mind that NOTBI is only eighteen years old and the fact that he wasn't attracted to this one guy doesn't mean that much about his orientation one way or the other.
Let's keep in mind that NOTBI is only eighteen years old and the fact that he wasn't attracted to this one guy doesn't mean that much about his orientation one way or the other.
69
God, I hope so (@67). Santorum's just fucked-up. I *get it* that anyone who lost a young child would exhibit peculiar coping behaviors, but this whole no-homo thing is just beyond retarded.
If he wasn't such a Poindexter in high school.. Trying to make up for lost time by being a political bad-ass (emphasis on the words bad and ass: whole lol).
Let him have his little bits of press. He won't get as far as any of us tends to worry about. Sooner or later, he'll say or do something stupid that pulls him out of the running. Think George Allen, when he said that dumb thing about macacas.
I'd love to figure out how big someone's ego needs to be to begin starting to think you can save the world politically by being a turd-merchant (Santorum) going into it.
Sorry you lost a child tragically, Rick Santorum. Other than that, you're a douche. Good luck with your campaign (not)!
If he wasn't such a Poindexter in high school.. Trying to make up for lost time by being a political bad-ass (emphasis on the words bad and ass: whole lol).
Let him have his little bits of press. He won't get as far as any of us tends to worry about. Sooner or later, he'll say or do something stupid that pulls him out of the running. Think George Allen, when he said that dumb thing about macacas.
I'd love to figure out how big someone's ego needs to be to begin starting to think you can save the world politically by being a turd-merchant (Santorum) going into it.
Sorry you lost a child tragically, Rick Santorum. Other than that, you're a douche. Good luck with your campaign (not)!
70
@ 68, Not the name of a registered user: I Wish I could just put duct tape on my semi-bearded face and just rip the frickin' roots of my facial hair clean off of me! I hate facial hair on me (it looks like cowlicked butthair growing in on me lol) and I too would prefer to kiss someone who is either shaven well or has little facial hair altogether. It just feels weird: like you're in shop class using sandpaper, instead of making out with your babe of choice :-) ! I say that now, but I suppose I'd prefer to leave my options open. Who knows? Maybe my man likes an occasional sprouting of facial hair on me. I could totally do without facial hair on me. Shaving in general is a pain in the ass, but a necessary one.
71
@70 - see, I love stubble. I love when it's scratchy, and I can rub my cheek against it and feel it prickling. I love the contrast when he just shaved before dinner, and he's so smooth, but I know that by the time we fuck, it'll be a little scratchy already...
72
The guy in the first letter must know perfectly well that he is the subject of gossip among his acquaintances for being Such A Huge Queen, and that people like to tell one another that his sexuality "has gone from funny to sad."
And the guy is already out getting his freak on on Grindr - he is apparently not all that out of touch with his own basic drives.
The fact that he doesn't choose to officially out himself to the campus bitch squad may have less to do with shame or repression, and more to do with a perfectly natural wish to guard his privacy from people who have been treating him as a figure of pity and mockery for four years.
And the guy is already out getting his freak on on Grindr - he is apparently not all that out of touch with his own basic drives.
The fact that he doesn't choose to officially out himself to the campus bitch squad may have less to do with shame or repression, and more to do with a perfectly natural wish to guard his privacy from people who have been treating him as a figure of pity and mockery for four years.
73
The guy in the first letter must know perfectly well that he is the subject of gossip among his acquaintances for being Such A Huge Queen, and that people like to tell one another that his sexuality "has gone from funny to sad."
And the guy is already out getting his freak on on Grindr - he is apparently not all that out of touch with his own basic drives.
The fact that he doesn't choose to officially out himself to the campus bitch squad may have less to do with shame or repression, and more to do with a perfectly natural wish to guard his privacy from people who have been treating him as a figure of pity and mockery for four years.
And the guy is already out getting his freak on on Grindr - he is apparently not all that out of touch with his own basic drives.
The fact that he doesn't choose to officially out himself to the campus bitch squad may have less to do with shame or repression, and more to do with a perfectly natural wish to guard his privacy from people who have been treating him as a figure of pity and mockery for four years.
74
OK, we need to chill with the Komen-bashing already.
They made a mistake, and they corrected it, quite publicly, and the person responsible for said mistake is gone.
I was very vocal in my opposition to what Komen did, but now that they reversed course, what purpose does continuing to bash them serve?
It makes leftward-leaning folks seem as political and vindictive as the right-to-lifers were in the first place.
They made a mistake, and they corrected it, quite publicly, and the person responsible for said mistake is gone.
I was very vocal in my opposition to what Komen did, but now that they reversed course, what purpose does continuing to bash them serve?
It makes leftward-leaning folks seem as political and vindictive as the right-to-lifers were in the first place.
75
Oops - sorry for the double-post, I thought the original got canceled when it made me register.
In other news, I'd lay dollars to donuts that post-orgasmic weeping and self-recrimination is all part of the usual hotel fun for Mr. "Is that a webcam? Spank me!" guy in letter #3.
In other news, I'd lay dollars to donuts that post-orgasmic weeping and self-recrimination is all part of the usual hotel fun for Mr. "Is that a webcam? Spank me!" guy in letter #3.
76
I think for the last LW, the wisdom of 4chan prevails: on a scale of gayness, 0/10, the balls aren't touching.
77
about NOTBI. I agree with you about the too much tongue & the rough stubbles. Had a menage-a-trois with another guy and girl thinking we were just going to have some fun with the girl. Surprise!!!!! He seemed to have more of an interest in me. I wouldn't say It wasn't fun at the time, but I certainly prefer smoother skin and to start off gentler and less tongue. Now this is from a straight guy, but I do wonder from time to time, what if........
78
@ 71, EricaP: Yeah. You're right. Especially when, as you say, you've shaven that morning, but by the time nighttime rolls around, you've got that awesome patch of 2:00 shadow growing in, and who has time to wanna shave when you're about to make some love..
I would never grow a Grizzly Adams sort of beard, let alone ever try wearing one from a Halloween costume shop. I'd rather put a woodchuck on my upper lip and walk around like that. I'd rather look like an asshole than someone whose soup never seems to quite make it in his mouth when he goes out to eat lol.
I would never grow a Grizzly Adams sort of beard, let alone ever try wearing one from a Halloween costume shop. I'd rather put a woodchuck on my upper lip and walk around like that. I'd rather look like an asshole than someone whose soup never seems to quite make it in his mouth when he goes out to eat lol.
79
@77 if you had fun kissing a guy (even if next time you want it to be gentler (guys can be gentle!))... why call yourself straight? Is that because you didn't go down on him?
80
@ 73, DistingueTraces (How 'Bout This Tongue;-)~Traces...): If I may quote you generously, thanks:
"The fact that he doesn't choose to officially out himself to the campus bitch squad may have less to do with shame or repression, and more to do with a perfectly natural wish to guard his privacy from people who have been treating him as a figure of pity and mockery for four years."
Well said! I've never been a herd-mentality person -- especially when it came to how I publically identify as what preference, or whatever anyone chooses to call one's inherent, true nature.
I never was a college drone, I never was a stooge waving a flag for a cause I chose to know nothing or little about and I sure as fuck never have cared for lame, uncool, depressing, universally-free-of-mojo kinds of music.
I like to rock. I may be gay, but I like to think of myself as being more rock and roll than anything else.
Music unifies, man. Growing up in a musical family (and with my best friend's family also a family of musicians) taught me that it's still possible to grow up in the early '80's as a gay boy and *still turn out cool, and your own person*.
I identify with music sometimes more than I do any one person's lead-me-to-the-promised-land-eternal sorts of bullshit.
Music helped raise me. It makes you inspired to think and feel for yourself: herd-mentality be damned.
I'm never down with public outings. Fuck that. How would any of us feel being thrown into the deep end like that? Especially so if you've been a quieter type and you've been just doing the best you can?
I hate mobs, I hate protests and I can't stand sign-waving bullshit. I get it, but I just can't stand it. The only good thing about any of that sort of thing invariably is the piles of horseshit strewn in the streets after the drunkards and rowdies finished promising the second coming of the first revolution, or something ;-) .
More...
"The fact that he doesn't choose to officially out himself to the campus bitch squad may have less to do with shame or repression, and more to do with a perfectly natural wish to guard his privacy from people who have been treating him as a figure of pity and mockery for four years."
Well said! I've never been a herd-mentality person -- especially when it came to how I publically identify as what preference, or whatever anyone chooses to call one's inherent, true nature.
I never was a college drone, I never was a stooge waving a flag for a cause I chose to know nothing or little about and I sure as fuck never have cared for lame, uncool, depressing, universally-free-of-mojo kinds of music.
I like to rock. I may be gay, but I like to think of myself as being more rock and roll than anything else.
Music unifies, man. Growing up in a musical family (and with my best friend's family also a family of musicians) taught me that it's still possible to grow up in the early '80's as a gay boy and *still turn out cool, and your own person*.
I identify with music sometimes more than I do any one person's lead-me-to-the-promised-land-eternal sorts of bullshit.
Music helped raise me. It makes you inspired to think and feel for yourself: herd-mentality be damned.
I'm never down with public outings. Fuck that. How would any of us feel being thrown into the deep end like that? Especially so if you've been a quieter type and you've been just doing the best you can?
I hate mobs, I hate protests and I can't stand sign-waving bullshit. I get it, but I just can't stand it. The only good thing about any of that sort of thing invariably is the piles of horseshit strewn in the streets after the drunkards and rowdies finished promising the second coming of the first revolution, or something ;-) .
81
@77
WTF was that about? "I'm straight man but the last guy I had sex with...maybe the next time I have sex with another man..."
WTF was that about? "I'm straight man but the last guy I had sex with...maybe the next time I have sex with another man..."
84
@NOTBI: light crossdressing + pegging = HAWT!!
Your letter made me horny. And reminded me I need to get some new stockings...
Your letter made me horny. And reminded me I need to get some new stockings...
85
Hey, Dan and everybody:
I guess I don't have much to comment on the letters in Dan's column for this week. But I do have one question, however off topic: am I truly a nut for loving my car (NO, I'm NOT fucking my car! Geez)?
Okay, you all know I'm a nut. It's just that he's got a truly awesome personality, automotively speaking!!! Hey--a lot of guys love their pickups, SUVs, rods, etc., right? Why can't us gals?
I guess I don't have much to comment on the letters in Dan's column for this week. But I do have one question, however off topic: am I truly a nut for loving my car (NO, I'm NOT fucking my car! Geez)?
Okay, you all know I'm a nut. It's just that he's got a truly awesome personality, automotively speaking!!! Hey--a lot of guys love their pickups, SUVs, rods, etc., right? Why can't us gals?
86
Hi Dan, I love listening to your show. I was recently struck by an idea that i thought worth sharing.
given that Gay marriage is not yet legal Wa. IF the referundum is put to a vote this season, which looks to be the case.
I see an interesting connection, between Gay marriage legalization AND the question of Abortion on Demand as provided by different services here in the US.
Here goes. There is no doubt in my mind (a married man), that children strengthen the commitment of two people to their beloved union.
and while physically it is impossible for two men or two women to make a baby. they can and should be able to adopt. this adoption fits into the natural progression assumed, that from the marriage will come offspring.
So,if proponents of Gay marriage wish to solidify the legitmacy of Gay marriages, by adoption of unwanted children.....then aborting unwanted potential children would undermine the opportunity to have children to care for and to grow into society in decent ways.
I think, and find it reasonable to discuss, the value of Gay Marriage not only to the indviduals involved, but to society, by way of child rearing, care, and growth of unwanted babies....it would naturally call forth a common sense desire to reject abortion, unless it falls into the time honored catagories of , Rape, incest or health of the mother.
In other words, proponents of gay marriage , who wish to adopt,who wish to strengthen their marriage through parenthood and shared growth.... would promote the logic that there is a place for the unwanted children and babies in their homes and hearts, It is one more alternative to Abortion.
If gay marriage proponents , link up to Abortion critics, with this common purpose, both have valuable situations that help each other. Strange bedfellows for sure, but when it comes to the value of life, the sanctity of it, and respect and recognition of it, we can all work together, we can all play a part.the world is an interesting place.
No need to respond Sir, it's just an idea that seems to be worth discussing.
Best to You and Yours.
More...
given that Gay marriage is not yet legal Wa. IF the referundum is put to a vote this season, which looks to be the case.
I see an interesting connection, between Gay marriage legalization AND the question of Abortion on Demand as provided by different services here in the US.
Here goes. There is no doubt in my mind (a married man), that children strengthen the commitment of two people to their beloved union.
and while physically it is impossible for two men or two women to make a baby. they can and should be able to adopt. this adoption fits into the natural progression assumed, that from the marriage will come offspring.
So,if proponents of Gay marriage wish to solidify the legitmacy of Gay marriages, by adoption of unwanted children.....then aborting unwanted potential children would undermine the opportunity to have children to care for and to grow into society in decent ways.
I think, and find it reasonable to discuss, the value of Gay Marriage not only to the indviduals involved, but to society, by way of child rearing, care, and growth of unwanted babies....it would naturally call forth a common sense desire to reject abortion, unless it falls into the time honored catagories of , Rape, incest or health of the mother.
In other words, proponents of gay marriage , who wish to adopt,who wish to strengthen their marriage through parenthood and shared growth.... would promote the logic that there is a place for the unwanted children and babies in their homes and hearts, It is one more alternative to Abortion.
If gay marriage proponents , link up to Abortion critics, with this common purpose, both have valuable situations that help each other. Strange bedfellows for sure, but when it comes to the value of life, the sanctity of it, and respect and recognition of it, we can all work together, we can all play a part.the world is an interesting place.
No need to respond Sir, it's just an idea that seems to be worth discussing.
Best to You and Yours.
87
@73 said basically exactly what I came in here to say. Before I had a boyfriend on campus, I was, like Chad, a guy who any of the other already out campus gays were probably pretty sure I was gay but would have thought of me as "not out." But what was really up was that I didn't care to be out to them. It's quite possible that he doesn't consider them as much a "friend" as they do him.
(I was hooking up with guys from the Internet too... but that was *cough* 15+ years ago so it was a whole lot harder than Grindr. But as Marcello and Chad have shown, the more things change...)
(I was hooking up with guys from the Internet too... but that was *cough* 15+ years ago so it was a whole lot harder than Grindr. But as Marcello and Chad have shown, the more things change...)
92
Yes, it was meant to be humourous.
Most people in my demographic are actually quite fond of beards. They're what you call "in".
Most people in my demographic are actually quite fond of beards. They're what you call "in".
93
Dan. You went to U of I and know damn well that the cruisy bathroom was in the GRADUATE library, right at the end of the tunnel.
94
I am squicked out by hotel rooms, and the third letter is a big reason why. I even hate to touch the remote control.
95
Dan, you know that "Al Gore invented the internet" reference is quite unfair. What Al Gore actually said was quite justifiable.
96
When Marcello got the face pic of Chad, he should have replied with "Oh, hey, Chad! Didn't realize I was flirting with a friend. 'Sister sex is sick' and all that. See you at SL's party/dance class/church" and then logged off. That way Chad would know that at least one person in his social circle knew his secret, but he wouldn't know which one. Maybe that would have been the nudge for him to quit his pathetic charade around his friends.
Or have CCC or another friend use the Grindr to find Chad in public, and then do a "shoulder tap" in person.
Or have CCC or another friend use the Grindr to find Chad in public, and then do a "shoulder tap" in person.
99
@auntie - I think you'd know if anyone were mad at you; personally I just don't have much to say about cars, though I'm glad you're happy.
100
@auntie(@85), I'm glad you enjoy your car's personality... I react this way to computers (Sony VAIO's have an allure that I think even Apple PowerBooks will never reach), but not to cars. Like so many nerdy types, I only learned to drive when I was 26-27, and I don't enjoy it... So there isn't much I can tell you about loving cars other than: by all means enjoy it!
(You don't have to want to fuck your car, but you might enjoy fucking in your car. Never tried it myself, but from those who enjoy cars I gather there's an allure to it that the car lover may pick on. :-)
(You don't have to want to fuck your car, but you might enjoy fucking in your car. Never tried it myself, but from those who enjoy cars I gather there's an allure to it that the car lover may pick on. :-)
101
mydriasis(@90), I actually wanted to grow a beard at one time (I also thought it looked like the kind of thing an intellectual would want to sport), but I couldn't -- the hair would grow thick in some places but thin in others, and I ended up looking like a toilet brush. And it took forever: as with your favorite type, my facial ahair grows slowly (I can go 3-4 days without shaving before people notice) and I have almost no body hair at all (a few scattered hairs here and there, but that's it).
Are there really many women who really like hairy masculine bodies? Curiously, most women I slept with found near-hairlessness nice, often even sexy. My wife loves it. (Of course, they're probably not a random sample; I may have been selected by women who, consciously or unconsciously, liked men with little body hair.)
Are there really many women who really like hairy masculine bodies? Curiously, most women I slept with found near-hairlessness nice, often even sexy. My wife loves it. (Of course, they're probably not a random sample; I may have been selected by women who, consciously or unconsciously, liked men with little body hair.)
102
RICK SANTORUM = GOP= NEWT(LIZARDHO)G.,..HOW BOUT MITT, THEN, WOW WAS THAT A REPUBLIPOTTY FLUSHING?
103
@101
Bingo. :)
I don't think I've ever heard a woman say she liked back hair or any of the like. But some of my friends are kind of hipsters and hipster guys are really into the lumberjack/fisherman trip right now. Ironically of course.
Or maybe that's just in Canada? Although I doubt it. Ask Williamsburg and get back to me. :p
Bingo. :)
I don't think I've ever heard a woman say she liked back hair or any of the like. But some of my friends are kind of hipsters and hipster guys are really into the lumberjack/fisherman trip right now. Ironically of course.
Or maybe that's just in Canada? Although I doubt it. Ask Williamsburg and get back to me. :p
104
Just to set the record straight (HAW HAW HAW) men with wacky hair colour often like females. I have blonde hair at the moment, I've had purple hair recently and I'm heterosexual.
105
@ 101: I love a naturally-smooth, hairless, *adult* male chest. (Emphasis on adult :-) )
Everyone has a physical fetish. That happens to be mine. I tend to shave my own chest, 'cos I have that knarly, silly-looking Austin Powers-like hair-bra lol. Hairy on my breasts. It looks pretty stupid, actually: hence why tend to shave it off. I wouldn't mind zappin' that shit off of me permanently.
Or something ;) .
Everyone has a physical fetish. That happens to be mine. I tend to shave my own chest, 'cos I have that knarly, silly-looking Austin Powers-like hair-bra lol. Hairy on my breasts. It looks pretty stupid, actually: hence why tend to shave it off. I wouldn't mind zappin' that shit off of me permanently.
Or something ;) .
106
Tanned skin, or, someone with skin that naturally tans well, and looks awesome...
THAT'S What I Like!
;-)~
THAT'S What I Like!
;-)~
107
I'd like to suggest a friendly competition, or a new thread, or somesuch. Let's all contribute the best Santorum headlines we find around the web. The only hitch is, it has to be a real, linkable headline, because dawg knows what we all could make up.
I'll start out by cheating, i.e., no link. Saw one the other day about Santorum's momentum. Ewwww.
I'll start out by cheating, i.e., no link. Saw one the other day about Santorum's momentum. Ewwww.
108
Marcelo is being a drama queen here. He doesn't show his face on Grindr even when his friend does and instead tells his friend all about it.
Seriously, dude, grow some balls and show your face.
Seriously, dude, grow some balls and show your face.
109
Re hairy chests, there may be an age factor as well. When I was in college, and most guys didn't have hairy chests, I thought hairy chests were as gross as hairy backs. But as I've aged, and my lovers have aged, now I have a thing for hairy chests (within reason, not popping out at the neckline)...
110
By way of introduction, I'd like to suggest a new thread or comment line or somesuch. Let's contribute the best Santorum headlines we find on the web. The only rule is the headline has to be real and linkable. I'll start by cheating, i.e., by not providing a link:
"Santorum Momentum Grows"
"Santorum Momentum Grows"
111
@ 107: I'd do that, as long as Dan and the site moderators aren't averse to us putting links up to direct the masses to sufficiently curtail the campaign of toxic terror that is operation santorum.
@ 108: Yeah, Marcelo did kind of rip off Chad by not giving him a facial pic, too! I don't relate to the part about Marcelo having to crow about to his friends that he saw Chad in there.. Either boink Chad or leave him be! And be a sport and send a facial pic of yourself in return. Maybe a nice 69 is in your future if you comply lol;).
@ 108: Yeah, Marcelo did kind of rip off Chad by not giving him a facial pic, too! I don't relate to the part about Marcelo having to crow about to his friends that he saw Chad in there.. Either boink Chad or leave him be! And be a sport and send a facial pic of yourself in return. Maybe a nice 69 is in your future if you comply lol;).
112
Marcelo is being a drama queen here. He doesn't show his face on Grindr even when his friend does and instead tells his other friend all about it.
Seriously, dude, grow some balls and show your face.
Seriously, dude, grow some balls and show your face.
113
@ 109, EricaP: Hi. I wouldn't mind my own hairy chest so much if it didn't look so silly in general! Seriously: think of a much less denser version of Austin Powers' hairy manboobs from the movies. I kinda look like that. No hair on the chest or sternum: just titty hair. I may as well be a witch with wiry nipple hairs that are as cold as the tundra winds ;) . Now I just need a crooked, wart-infested schnozz, a few sprinkles of dried toad skin, a raven's feather and some bubbles and ghouls in a simmering pot over a homefire within a cave, as my broom-and-handle vehicle is surgically attached to my inner backside for all of time... Making my witch's brew, with my wart-ridden schnozz and colder than a witch's bitch's tit, with wiry nipple hairs and Austin Powers hairy titties.
Gee, there's a real hard sell at work there, eh?
;-D
Gee, there's a real hard sell at work there, eh?
;-D
114
@ 108 & 112: That's good! To quote you:
"Seriously, dude, grow some balls and show your face."
The *real;)* exchange could also go:
Chad, To Marcelo: "Seriously, dude, lick my balls and let me cum on your face!" :)
"Seriously, dude, grow some balls and show your face."
The *real;)* exchange could also go:
Chad, To Marcelo: "Seriously, dude, lick my balls and let me cum on your face!" :)
115
@79 &81 First of all, I did say what if.......... I also didn't say we had sex, I said I thought we would have some fun with the girl. Straight? Well I guess that has somewhat to do with being attracted to woman. However gay men do seem attracted to me. I'm flattered but not interested. Why do people have to read into what others say?
116
@ 115: Were you guys taking Ecstacy or something? It *does* happen: straight guys on 'E' experimenting on one another...
Why do people have to read into what others say?
What else is there to in a site like this one?
;)
Why do people have to read into what others say?
What else is there to in a site like this one?
;)
117
Also, @ 115: Some gay guys can find you attractive or be drawn to you, and you wouldn't have to gay for it to happen. I can see that. Also, an edit for the last line of the last thing I posted. I meant to say, "What else is there to do within a site like this one?" :) Thanks!
118
Damn, did I pick the right name! Nothing like posting casually that you had a typo in your last post, when you again create a typo by forgetting a word. I also meant to say, "...you wouldn't have to be gay for it to happen..." . Peace!
119
@ 112: Marcelo just doesn't know enough to shut up and be cool about what he saw with Chad's pic on Grindr. I hate telling anyone else stuff I know of of people *they* also know of. It's bad karma and it bums me out, voluntarily betraying a confidence to liven up a hang-out with other friends. It's not worth undermining someone else's privacy for. Marcelo should either put up (or out lol) or shaddup. He owes Chad a b.j. at the very least, for the drama he created!
+~Electric Mombies Rule Always!! Come To 'Pigeon Park': They Await You...~+
+~Electric Mombies Rule Always!! Come To 'Pigeon Park': They Await You...~+
120
@115, in your earlier post @77 you said you kissed a guy, and "I wouldn't say it wasn't fun at the time," which sounds like it was kinda fun, if a little too rough for you.
Your "what if" also made it sound like you've been thinking about it since then, and maybe you're a little turned on by the idea.
But if you're not at all excited by the thought of sometime fooling around with a guy again, then I guess I did read too much into your original post. Apologies.
Your "what if" also made it sound like you've been thinking about it since then, and maybe you're a little turned on by the idea.
But if you're not at all excited by the thought of sometime fooling around with a guy again, then I guess I did read too much into your original post. Apologies.
121
Hmm. @ 120 Re: @ 115 Re: @ 77:
It is part of reality that sometimes people you hang out with: even people of the same sex - can sometimes entice you or turn you on, despite yourself.
Like, during a poon-tang drought, a guy who knows another guy friend of his who somehow possesses the kind of personality or presence the other guy is normally attracted to in his girl of choice..
In other words, when there's no good women around, and a male friend of yours somehow;) has the right mix of charm, discretion and naughtiness to go there with you.. That, and sometimes men do get annoyed with some women, for that age old claim of talking too much and not fucking enough. Who knows? People are weird, man. If you're a bird, I'm a bird.
;)
Perhaps the paint on my forehead has absorbed into my plumage, hence, affecting my better, objective judgement.
It is part of reality that sometimes people you hang out with: even people of the same sex - can sometimes entice you or turn you on, despite yourself.
Like, during a poon-tang drought, a guy who knows another guy friend of his who somehow possesses the kind of personality or presence the other guy is normally attracted to in his girl of choice..
In other words, when there's no good women around, and a male friend of yours somehow;) has the right mix of charm, discretion and naughtiness to go there with you.. That, and sometimes men do get annoyed with some women, for that age old claim of talking too much and not fucking enough. Who knows? People are weird, man. If you're a bird, I'm a bird.
;)
Perhaps the paint on my forehead has absorbed into my plumage, hence, affecting my better, objective judgement.
122
@121 Someone who is willing to go along with a little same-sex activity during a threesome, or during a drought (as you suggest), I'd call heteroflexible.
Someone who also fantasizes about same-sex activities, I'd call bi (or, I'd say they were "somewhere on the bi spectrum").
Dan says it's okay for such people to round up to straight...I think maybe they'd have more fun if they didn't...
Someone who also fantasizes about same-sex activities, I'd call bi (or, I'd say they were "somewhere on the bi spectrum").
Dan says it's okay for such people to round up to straight...I think maybe they'd have more fun if they didn't...
123
@99 EricaP and & @100 anklosaur: Thanks! It's great to hear from both of you. I guess I'm kinda "quirky nerdy" in an automotive-humanizing sort of way.
125
@ 122, EricaP: See? I remain unhip on the jargon! Heteroflexible..See? I could have known that word and saved us all a few paragraphs ;-D lol. Also, a hearty and warm welcome to Auntie Grizelda, EricaP, Anklylosaur as well as any of the other possible permuatations of my screennames. Cheers, One + All! Have A Great Weekend :) .
126
Nice to see people showing happiness here. Nice weekend to all, also from the Netherlands.
I could possibly count myself as heteroflexible solely on theoretical grounds, though I've never actually had sex with a man, since I think I wouldn't mind doing a guy as long as a woman is also involved; if I like him I might perhaps even kinda enjoy giving him pleasure; but I certainly don't fantasize about doing that.
I could possibly count myself as heteroflexible solely on theoretical grounds, though I've never actually had sex with a man, since I think I wouldn't mind doing a guy as long as a woman is also involved; if I like him I might perhaps even kinda enjoy giving him pleasure; but I certainly don't fantasize about doing that.
127
Beware Closet case may shut down for awhile so don't be surprised.
I like beard stubble and tongue...lots of it.
I like beard stubble and tongue...lots of it.
128
@121
That's a truly conflicted depiction of being straight. If you sometimes have sex with other guys (fear not: we'll keep in mind your gigantic rationalizations for what motivates your behavior!) you are by definition not straight. You describe this as business as usual, right? This as opposed to an isolated period of experimentation.
Are you afraid your dick will fall off if you admit to being bisexual? It can't be that you haven't heard of bisexuality so it must be an unwillingness to apply the word. "Heteroflexible" seems like a euphemism to me. Or maybe splitting hairs.
That's a truly conflicted depiction of being straight. If you sometimes have sex with other guys (fear not: we'll keep in mind your gigantic rationalizations for what motivates your behavior!) you are by definition not straight. You describe this as business as usual, right? This as opposed to an isolated period of experimentation.
Are you afraid your dick will fall off if you admit to being bisexual? It can't be that you haven't heard of bisexuality so it must be an unwillingness to apply the word. "Heteroflexible" seems like a euphemism to me. Or maybe splitting hairs.
129
@122 EricaP
It's the drought half of the equation where I draw the line. Guys who have sex with other guys just as a matter of routine-- what was the reason? women are difficult? women are not there at that precise moment of horniness?-- are bisexual. Serial temporary insanity as described in @121 will not be bought by the jury.
It's the drought half of the equation where I draw the line. Guys who have sex with other guys just as a matter of routine-- what was the reason? women are difficult? women are not there at that precise moment of horniness?-- are bisexual. Serial temporary insanity as described in @121 will not be bought by the jury.
130
Mr J - Colour me confused. Didn't you refuse to pin the B word on Mr Savage recently for remarkably similar behaviour, even with a qualifier that it was past behaviour?
131
@130 Mr V
Hello, Sir! I must say I don't recall. But do you see the distinction I'm making? Many people experiment at some point in their lives and they may well be straight. That may be the route by which they come to understand their orientation. Many people may have incidental homosexual contact during a 3 way and still be straight.
Yeah, Mr. Savage strikes me as a big, giant homo. Not bi. I often admire you, Sir, in your war against presumption. There seems to be an assumption here (though not by you) that a certain amount of gymnastics to avoid the "bi" label is a worthy goal. I must question whether that's an insult to me. No matter. A man who plans to have sex with other men on an ongoing basis with no timeline for withdrawal (yes,I crack myself up) is not straight.
Hello, Sir! I must say I don't recall. But do you see the distinction I'm making? Many people experiment at some point in their lives and they may well be straight. That may be the route by which they come to understand their orientation. Many people may have incidental homosexual contact during a 3 way and still be straight.
Yeah, Mr. Savage strikes me as a big, giant homo. Not bi. I often admire you, Sir, in your war against presumption. There seems to be an assumption here (though not by you) that a certain amount of gymnastics to avoid the "bi" label is a worthy goal. I must question whether that's an insult to me. No matter. A man who plans to have sex with other men on an ongoing basis with no timeline for withdrawal (yes,I crack myself up) is not straight.
132
Calling all straight men: Read @121. He's saying that's what you all do. Can I hear a little, "NO WE DO NOT!"?
133
@Mr J., I think a lot of straight men, if they were honest and self-aware, would admit that if they were in prison and had no access to women for years on end, they might seek out male sexual companionship.
That's a bit like Dan having a girlfriend in high school so no one would think he was gay. (Or the many gay men who married, and occasionally fucked, their wives.)
I reserve "bisexual" for people who fantasize about both men & women, and who think it likely that they would act on those fantasies if given an appealing & ethical opportunity. Me, I fool around with women during threesomes and sex parties, but they don't enter my fantasies unless I work really hard at it to prove to myself that it's possible. And even then, when I'm actually getting off, I'm thinking about what they're doing with a strap-on...
That's a bit like Dan having a girlfriend in high school so no one would think he was gay. (Or the many gay men who married, and occasionally fucked, their wives.)
I reserve "bisexual" for people who fantasize about both men & women, and who think it likely that they would act on those fantasies if given an appealing & ethical opportunity. Me, I fool around with women during threesomes and sex parties, but they don't enter my fantasies unless I work really hard at it to prove to myself that it's possible. And even then, when I'm actually getting off, I'm thinking about what they're doing with a strap-on...
134
@133 EricaP
I won't hold my breath waiting for straight men to be honest and self-aware.
You cite some extraordinary circumstances in which people engage in sexual behavior outside of their orientation. The example at hand is clearly normal life, not extraordinary circumstance. I would like to understand that if a person rejects a label it's because the label fails to communicate some essential fact, not because they think poorly of some kinds of people. I see the distinction you make between bi and heteroflexible. I don't understand it though because you're saying that a commonplace component of your sex life doesn't creep into your fantasy life. That's beyond me.
I won't hold my breath waiting for straight men to be honest and self-aware.
You cite some extraordinary circumstances in which people engage in sexual behavior outside of their orientation. The example at hand is clearly normal life, not extraordinary circumstance. I would like to understand that if a person rejects a label it's because the label fails to communicate some essential fact, not because they think poorly of some kinds of people. I see the distinction you make between bi and heteroflexible. I don't understand it though because you're saying that a commonplace component of your sex life doesn't creep into your fantasy life. That's beyond me.
135
@134 how many people have you interrogated about their fantasy lives? Turns out that people are very different -- for me, there's always an element of creepiness/violence/power, and there's always cock & penetration. Some guys' fantasies are super fantastical with body parts morphing, weird creatures, or things happening in outer space or underwater... I've met a guy who can only fantasize about things that are part of his real life (so he imagines ex- or current girlfriends, in places where he has fucked them, and using condoms if he was using condoms with them). That's incredible to me. But he was surprised that I was so different from him (ie, that my fantasies are almost always about things I wouldn't want to experience in real life).
So anyway, no, to clarify: things from my actual sex life almost never show up in my fantasies. (They're more stranger-on-plane; mechanic-fixing-car, kids'-soccer-coach, FedEx-delivery-guy, that sort of thing - but acting super inappropriate and overpowering me or manipulating me...) The women I've fooled around with in real life don't exude any sense of menace... so there's really not much way for them to creep into my fantasies...
So anyway, no, to clarify: things from my actual sex life almost never show up in my fantasies. (They're more stranger-on-plane; mechanic-fixing-car, kids'-soccer-coach, FedEx-delivery-guy, that sort of thing - but acting super inappropriate and overpowering me or manipulating me...) The women I've fooled around with in real life don't exude any sense of menace... so there's really not much way for them to creep into my fantasies...
136
Thinking on this more, I think the problem comes down to the fact that who we'll have sex with (either in fantasies or in real life) is contingent on so much more than gender, that people feel weird with almost any of the existing labels. "Bi" really sounds like one is in the middle, and doesn't express the idea that, say, someone goes for people who are tall and strong, who are usually male, but the occasional tall, strong woman can also arouse them.
My claim to being hetero-flexible comes partly out of my inexperience with women, so I haven't come on to them much, and I tend to feel like I'm going along with what they want, out of (almost) politeness, rather than desire. As I get more comfortable at the sex parties, I'm initiating a bit more -- but, honestly, that's really my exhibitionism speaking, more than any attraction to these women. And I'm still uncomfortable going down on them, due both to my inexperience and because their smell doesn't arouse me.
So -- go ahead and call me bi if that term seems useful to you. But please don't take it as an insult when I say that I really don't feel an internal attraction to women, so it's hard for me to feel bi, regardless of my actions.
My claim to being hetero-flexible comes partly out of my inexperience with women, so I haven't come on to them much, and I tend to feel like I'm going along with what they want, out of (almost) politeness, rather than desire. As I get more comfortable at the sex parties, I'm initiating a bit more -- but, honestly, that's really my exhibitionism speaking, more than any attraction to these women. And I'm still uncomfortable going down on them, due both to my inexperience and because their smell doesn't arouse me.
So -- go ahead and call me bi if that term seems useful to you. But please don't take it as an insult when I say that I really don't feel an internal attraction to women, so it's hard for me to feel bi, regardless of my actions.
137
To be clear, my own sexual identity feels more like "kinky" than like hetero, bi, or hetero-flexible.
138
Dan's a dick. If Chad wants his privacy, whose right is it to violate that? And, if he jumps off the GWB the day after Marcelo outs him, I guess it was his own fault. Everybody likes Chad. Chad's not a homophobic jerk, so what's to gain by outing him? And, if Marcelo truly cared about him, he'd take him aside, assure him his secret was safe, but emphasize that thare was a caring, supportive community if he ever decided to come out. Instead, he blabbed to everybody. Some friend. Some community. All a bunch of dicks.
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