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June 20, 2012

Is it normal for my man to be so attracted to boobs that even though mine are beautiful and perfect, my boyfriend still wants to look at every other woman with a set of big boobs that he can? Aren't mine enough?

Boyfriend Ogles Other Breasts

You sound like a new reader, BOOB, so before we get to the advice, I wanna welcome you to the Savage Love family. With that out of the way...

Nope, yours aren't enough.

Yep, it's normal for a straight man to look at women's boobs—boobs on the woman he's with, boobs on women he's not with, boobs on women who don't technically exist and can't be gotten with, e.g., Veronica Lodge, Lara Croft, Nicki Minaj. Did you think checking out boobs was a symptom of leukemia or something? And while your set may be practically perfect in every way—which would make you the Mary Poppins of boobs—your man is still gonna check out other women's sets.

But your man shouldn't be a dick about it. While it's perfectly normal for a partnered straight guy to check out other women—just as it's perfectly normal for a partnered straight woman to check out other men (see you at Magic Mike this weekend, ladies)—your man should be discreet. He can train himself to look without looking like he's looking; he can learn to check out other women without ogling them. It's not about hiding the fact that he's looking, it's about caring enough to take your feelings into consideration, BOOB, to say nothing of the feelings of the other women he's checking out.

And if he can look without being an inconsiderate dick about it, BOOB, you should let him look without being an insecure bitch about it—don't blow up or melt down if you catch him taking a quick, subtle look at another woman's boobs. Because if he's considerate enough to be discreet, BOOB, you can be considerate enough to turn a blind eye.

I've been with my boyfriend since I was 15. I'm 20 now. In all the time we've been together, I've never had an orgasm. For a long time, I wanted to get a vibrator, but my boyfriend hated that idea and never wanted me to get one because he says he already feels like crap that he can't get me off. Recently, I thought, "What the hell—I want to see what happens!" So I bought one on my own. The very first time I used it, I got off in two minutes. Now I feel stupid for not buying one sooner. My question is...

How do I tell him? Should I tell him? He always wanted to be the first person to give me an orgasm, and as far as he knows, I still haven't had one.

Couldn't Wait Forever

Tell your boyfriend you bought a vibrator, CWF. If the boyfriend has a sad about your purchase—and your ability to climax (congrats!)—tell him that some women require the kind of intense, focused stimulation that only a vibrator can provide in order to get off, and, as it turns out, you're one of those women. And he can still be the first person to give you an orgasm: He can give you one with a vibrator in his hand. And if he acts like an insecure bitch about it, CWF, if he blows up or melts down, well...

New vibrator, newly orgasmic—maybe it's time for a new boyfriend, too?

I am a woman who has been with my male partner for one year. We live together and get along well. Our relationship is "monogamish," and we're both totally GGG. The thing is, our sex has dwindled rapidly. I have a high sex drive and would prefer to be having sex more often. It really sucks being turned down all the time. When I bring it up, he gets mad and says I'm making him feel bad. But honestly, all I'm doing is letting him know that I'm hot for him. I am not trying to make him feel bad or put pressure on him. I now ignore my sexual urges unless he initiates something. But I feel hurt when he tells me how much he masturbates. He masturbates when I'm at work and when I'm asleep. He is always masturbating. As much as I enjoy self-pleasuring and know it's good for a person to do, it seems he would rather masturbate than have sex with me. What's a gal to do?

Sadly Pensive And Neglected Kinkster

A gal is to DTMFA, SPANK.

Couples counselors and sex-advice professionals have a term for people who rebuff their partner's sexual advances and then go out of their way to inform their partners that they're masturbating while their partners are at work, asleep beside them, etc.: We call people like that assholes. Because someone who wounds his sex partner through active neglect, salts those wounds by making it clear that he's jerking it in her absence, and then makes his partner feel like she's the bad guy isn't guilty of thoughtless cruelty. He's guilty of intentional, malicious cruelty. Can't you see what your boyfriend has already done to you? He's trained you to "ignore [your own] sexual urges"—he's trained you not to initiate, not to make any demands on him at all—and now you're only sexual when he wants you to be sexual. It doesn't sound like your boyfriend wants a girlfriend, SPANK, it sounds like he wants a Fleshlight that pays half the rent.


CONFIDENTIAL TO PEOPLE WHO WEAR T-SHIRTS: Aydian Dowling was one of the three LGBT youths whose stories were featured in the It Gets Better special on MTV and Logo earlier this year. Like many young trans men, Aydian needs "top surgery"—chest surgery that will bring his body into line with his gender identity—and this expensive surgery isn't covered by health insurance plans.

"Health insurance in the USA doesn't cover transgender surgeries at all," he says. "They're covered in the UK, Canada, and Australia. The waiting lists are long, but at least it's covered." Aydian has a job—he's a baker—but he doesn't have health insurance through his workplace. Which means Aydian not only has to pay for his top surgery out of his own pocket, he also has to pay for all the preliminary blood work and tests, and any postoperative care that he might need.

"A lot of trans people ask for donations on sites like to help cover the costs of their surgeries," says Aydian. "But raising the $6,000 that top surgery costs through donations alone is pretty hard. And I wanted to give something back to people who donated."

To give something back, Aydian designed a line of T-shirts. His T-shirts—which are high quality, trans-themed, and really fuckin' cool—cost Aydian $10 to produce, and he's selling them for $20. Between the money Aydian and his wife, Jenilee, were given as wedding gifts and the money he's raised selling his T-shirts, Aydian is just $300 from his $6,000 goal.

Aydian had originally planned to stop selling his T-shirts once he hit his goal. But the shirts have been such a hit, Aydian has decided to keep selling them to help pay for other trans men's top surgeries.

You can check out Aydian's shirts at The T-shirts are trans-themed—T-Rex!—but anyone can buy and wear them. Check 'em out!

Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at

@fakedansavage on Twitter


Comments (206) RSS

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Posted by Just Another Opinon on June 19, 2012 at 8:20 PM · Report this
All three letters about depressing-ass relationships and/or partners is making me wonder why we make it so fucking hard to be with each other. I mean, what could be better/more natural than sex with another person or person or stuffed animal or whatever, but we can't seem to...just let it happen without all this drama. Or is the drama the good part?

feelin' grouchy and confused,
Posted by inbed on June 19, 2012 at 8:44 PM · Report this
Eva Hopkins 3
Hey Dan, there's something up w/ the formatting of the column (or there is as of my reading it) where there's no title, & a huge buncha white space up top. Had to scroll down pretty far to see it.

(More in a sec, grabbing a cuppa tea.)
Posted by Eva Hopkins on June 19, 2012 at 9:13 PM · Report this
Eva Hopkins 4
Oh wait, there's the title. Still gobs of space though.

So! Now whenever Dan gets talked smack at for being transphobic, he should link that (very cute) picture of him wearin' the shirt as reply. Great advice this week, Dan.

SPANK - I've been you! I've been w/ someone exactly like that & a year is about when it materialized w/ my ex, too, this push-me, pull-you game of sex. Listen to Dan. I sometimes think the DTMFA (Dump the Motherfucker Already, in case yer a new reader) card gets whipped out too soon, but a partner who makes you feel shitty about your sex drive is only gonna make you more miserable the more time goes by. This is about control & respect, SPANK, & you've handed it all to him. It's really a hard thing to reverse & life is too short to have bad sex..or hardly any sex..& then feel guilty over your own natural drive. It's harder when ya live w/ someone but I just don't see this going anywhere good. Plz. move. Might hurt short term, better for you long term.

To "couldn't wait" - same. This feels like your guy wanting to control your sexuality. Dan is spot on.

That's an iconic T shirt. Enlighten this bi lady - the big "T" looks like a superhero symbol. If I was to buy one, would that be me saying I'm trans? Is the T a symbol, like this?…

Posted by Eva Hopkins on June 19, 2012 at 9:22 PM · Report this
@#2 - I quite agree. I am a gay man who is 57 and single. The longer I stay single, the more I realize that, despite all the romantic BS I was fed as a youth, being in a realtionship is HARD. And very often not worth the effort.

I've been single for about sic years now. I get the ocasional pice every now and then, but I have pretty much stopped looking for "the one". I am quite happy alone and now that I've finally come to like myself after all these years, I realize that there is nothing wrong with being alone. At its worst, it's sometimes lonely. At its best (most of the time) it's blessedly peaceful. Content at last! Who knew?
Posted by Gay Movie Fan on June 19, 2012 at 9:27 PM · Report this
To CWF: Giving your boyfriend the benefit of the doubt, I think he, having started young, probably bought into the juvenile myth that the measure of the man is his ability to give her an orgasm (doubtless along with a generous dose of size insecurity), and he feels like a failure. He needs some grown-up information.

The reality is that both of you are responsible for your pleasure. If you've been together since 15, and you say you haven't had an orgasm in all that time, it sounds like you didn't have one AT ALL. Meaning, not even on your own; you didn't spend a lot of effort on getting to know your own responses. If you don't know what makes your own body tick, he can't be held to much level of fault for being equally ignorant about you. If you knew what felt good, you could teach him.

I don't know how hard the two of you have been working at finding things that get you off (meaning other than coitus; I have a sneaking suspicion that coitus is the main focus for him, based on his insecurity over buying a bionic dick), but pragmatically speaking, if you needed that vibrator, chances are pretty good that the pair of you don't need to chalk it up to a shortcoming on his part. (Other than all the insecurity. You should have been free to get that vibe ages ago. Hell, the two of you might have learned a few things using it that by now would make it unnecessary.)
Posted by avast2006 on June 19, 2012 at 9:53 PM · Report this
Back to your question, though: my suggestion is that you present the new vibe as something cool to add to your sex play, that feels really good and use it on him to get him off. Dicks like being vibrated too. Applying it to the sensitive parts can be mind-blowing. Make the vibe be about making both of you feel really good, rather than it being about solving your orgasm "problem."
Posted by avast2006 on June 19, 2012 at 10:04 PM · Report this
SPANK: Something seems very fishy here. He tells you that he is masturbating constantly, but at times that are basically unverifiable by you. More, it is part of a pattern of behavior designed to get out of having sex with you. (I'm guessing he is using having masturbated too recently as an excuse.) If I had to guess, he has his own nefarious reasons for avoiding sex with you. Maybe his monogamish activities have gotten out of hand? Maybe he is closeted? Maybe he is waiting for that herpes outbreak to clear up?

Bottom line, however, is that his actions are corrosive to your sexual self. Constant rejection, even for supposedly legit reasons like being a busy new mommy, is soul-crushing if it goes on long enough. And he doesn't even have anything resembling a good excuse. He is being extremely creepy and cruel. DTMFA.
Posted by avast2006 on June 19, 2012 at 10:24 PM · Report this
Chelydra_serpentina 9
@3 - It's doing that because the column is too narrow for the title. Ordinarily, a wide title would be on multiple lines, but since the title has no spaces in it, so there's nowhere to put a line break.

Yeah, that gave me considerable pause too.
Posted by Chelydra_serpentina on June 19, 2012 at 11:16 PM · Report this
@2 and @5: THANK YOU both so MUCH!!!
I am comforted in realizing that I am not alone!!
I love my car, I love my freedom, I love being able to sleep when I'm tired,
being able to eat when I'm hungry, get drunk when I WANT to, dammit!!,
live on MY schedule, and fucking fart under the sheets and covers of my bed and NOT have to worry about anybody going berzerk about it!!!
Most importantly, I have found PEACE!!!!

Bless everybody at Savage Love and all of you like this crazy lady blogging every week! May you all find your happiness and peace. LIfe's too short!
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 19, 2012 at 11:35 PM · Report this
Interesting the young transman calls waitlists "long" in Canada... 2 years is average in my province, but that includes the mandatory psychiatric assessment by the government that precedes getting on the surgery list. Maybe I'm just reading the comment as a slight at our system, but top surgery is $6000 in the US at best and sometimes even $10,000... I'm betting most young folks would need two or more years to save that kind of dough if at all... It just wasn't possible in my situation. So thank goodness, in BC at least it was added to the list of insured procedures less than 2yrs ago. And hey, the affluent transguys I know who didn't wanna wait? They flew to the US and paid.
Also agree with #4 about transphobia. Ive read this column voraciously for about 12 years and while he's poked some fun at us I'd say who hasn't he poked fun at? Sometimes folks need to just lighten up!
Posted by bur on June 20, 2012 at 3:13 AM · Report this
@11 It's the same here in Sweden. It's covered, but there's a mandatory psych eval, and here you also have to do a so-called "real life experience" test. Which means you have to live as your self-perceived gender for at least a year before you can get the surgery. All in all it takes about 2 years before getting anywhere near an operating table. It's not an unreasonable amount of time to get the proper diagnosis and treatment.
Posted by Friendstastegood on June 20, 2012 at 3:41 AM · Report this
@8, it occurred to me too that he was lying about masturbating. I figured he was having some kind of sexual problem, though. It doesn't matter though. His reasons are his own, by his own choice, and she needs to get out and let him deal with it or get over himself or learn how to be in a relationship without being a shithead. She should definitely get tested, though, in case it's the herpes scenario.
Posted by Howlin' Jed on June 20, 2012 at 5:57 AM · Report this
Re: SPANK- "When I bring it up, he gets mad and says I'm making him feel bad. But honestly, all I'm doing is letting him know that I'm hot for him."

I'd love to know how she's bringing it up. It makes a difference.

If she's truly being non-judgmental and open to whatever he needs to communicate about his sexual desires, if she's listening from a loving and accommodating place, then Dan is right.

But it's also possible that his withdrawal is coming from his feeling that he's under attack. Maybe her being hot for him means that she's demanding a sexual practice all the time that he's not comfortable giving all the time. That can be a turn-off. Maybe she thought she was being light-hearted and teasing when he opened up to her how uncomfortable something was making him, and now he feels ridiculed when he was his most vulnerable. If that's it, she needs to sweetly offer to help him masturbate. Maybe the problem started somewhere that has nothing to do with sex. It could be manifesting itself sexually when it really has to do with insensitivity over housework or relatives or work pressures.

In other words, it could be that he's being a passive aggressive shit, or it could be that she wasn't listening when he tried to be straightforward.
Posted by Crinoline on June 20, 2012 at 6:19 AM · Report this
While Dan generally nailed it in responding to BOOB, he left out part. Some of us straight guys are skeptical about her claim that hers are "beautiful and perfect". So BOOB: post your proof ;) Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Also there's the possibility BOOB is reaping some benefit from her guy noticing other women. Does it matter how he works up an appetite, as long as he dines at home?
Posted by eyesout on June 20, 2012 at 6:35 AM · Report this
Mmmm, Veronica Lodge...
Posted by jzimbert on June 20, 2012 at 7:16 AM · Report this
CWF, if after talking to him about your needs, you find that your boyfriend is really more concerned with HIS POWER to get you off than he is with YOU GETTING OFF, cut him loose. Don't let him convince you that your pleasure should be all about him and his feewings. Don't let him hold your orgasms hostage. You deserve to have as many as you want in whatever way works for you, and he needs to either get on board or get out of the way.

Seriously. This is important for this relationship and all your future relationships. You're an adult now, with an adult's sexuality, and you are entitled to a satisfying sex life that you (not your boyfriends) control.
Posted by Skipper Jo on June 20, 2012 at 8:25 AM · Report this
@ 2, 5 and 10, cheers to being single and liking it! :-)

SPANK your guy's excuses are waay fishy! It'd help to find out what he's covering up/ lying about. Also, if you'rd monogamish, wouldn't it be ok to just go have sex with someone else?
Posted by Novia on June 20, 2012 at 8:54 AM · Report this
My boyfriend is also not particularly interested in sex with me, but I'm pretty sure he masturbates (but to be fair he's only ever referred to it obliquely on a few occasions). I feel like I'm always living in hope that I'll get some and it completely determines my behavior--like I'll lie in bed on a weekend when I'd like to get up on the off chance that he'll be interested or I'll stay out late with him just in case he's keen when we get back to his. I don't think he's aware though, so it's not like he's being controlling. After lots of rejection, I've learned to initiate subtlety so that if I get positive feedback, I keep going and if I get nothing back I just stop without feeling too hurt. He doesn't initiate. He's pretty shy about sex (often our best sex is after he's had just the right number of drinks--not too many, not too few), and I find sex hard to talk about with him. I want to say "I find you so attractive. Is there anything I can do to make you more interested in having sex with me?" Is that a good way to start a conversation? This year I've started keeping track of how often we have sex and it's about three times a month. We're both fairly athletic and attractive and not overworked and it drives me crazy that my sex life is dire in my early 30s. I love him--he's funny, clever, caring and the life and soul of the party. We do lots together and are a great team. We've been together five years and I want to be with him, but the thought of a lifetime of minimal sex sometimes depresses me. Thoughts welcome.
Posted by reflective on June 20, 2012 at 9:38 AM · Report this
I son't think SPANK's partner is fishy at all.

For most guys over the age of 25 masturbation is as much or more about stress relief than sexual release. And for a lot of us as pleasant as sex with a partner is there can be a lot of stress involved in it.
Posted by Litch on June 20, 2012 at 9:52 AM · Report this
Not to be a fucking asshole, but if Aydian really wants to find out what it's like to be a chick, she should figure out a way to pay for her own boobjob. Get a second job like the rest of us, girlfriend.
Posted by Idid on June 20, 2012 at 10:00 AM · Report this
Drone 22
Can someone explain to me what the name "Point 5cc" is referring to? I don't get it...
Posted by Drone on June 20, 2012 at 10:22 AM · Report this
mydriasis 23

Since when is sex not about stress relief?
I find not having sex* to be extremely stressful.

*and by that I mean partnered sex, I don't personally catagorize masturbation as being anything like sex
Posted by mydriasis on June 20, 2012 at 10:22 AM · Report this
mydriasis 24
I think point5cc means 0.5 cc. Or half a milliliter. They use an image of a syringe (syringe doses are often measured in cubic centimeters).... he wants money for a medical procedure so I assume it's a reference to that?

That or it's a drug thing.
Posted by mydriasis on June 20, 2012 at 10:31 AM · Report this
sissoucat 25
@10 I'm on the same wagon. I'm living alone, raising my kids, and not making any efforts except for them. They are my goal until they have grown up. I have no energy left to invest in anybody.

My partner only comes when the kids are away, and always calls before to check it out with me. If we start argumenting, if something displeases him that I like, he knows enough to leave the grounds by himself, before I tell him to go. He knows I'm doing him a favor by letting him come to my place - he treats me with respect. It's a win-win situation ; I'm not angry at him, and we have great sex, more often that we would if we lived always together.

Nothing makes living in a relationship mandatory for us women. Why would I agree to be someone's second ? To plan my life around someone ? Sorry to have to say it, but since our own bodies make the kids, the only ones who are really gaining by having a relationship, by hanging close to the other gender are the males. They've enslaved our minds for so long, they've made it so hard for us, for centuries, to earn enough money to support ourselves - just to prevent us from understanding the simple truth that we don't need them - they do.
Posted by sissoucat on June 20, 2012 at 10:31 AM · Report this
I think the 0.5cc T may be a dose of hormone?
Posted by ariane on June 20, 2012 at 10:44 AM · Report this
19-Reflective-- You know the issues; now decide what you want to do. If you break up with him, you'll get even less sex, at least temporarily while you look for someone new. You might never find someone who is as funny, clever, caring, and the life of a party. On the other hand, maybe you will find someone better, someone who is funny, clever, caring, AND who shares your sexual appetite. What do you think your chances are? Do the risk/benefit analysis and decide.

Or you could stay with him and try to be happy with the reduced sex life. It's called settling, and most of do it in one way or another over something. No one can predict the future. Maybe the sex will get better. Maybe you won't mind so much. Maybe your sexual desire will match his after you've had a baby. Do the risk/benefit analysis of staying with him and decide.

Then there's the middle of the road approach: trying to improve what you have. The way it's playing out now, you're getting just enough intermittent reinforcement to keep you hanging in. You might try better communication, a couples counselor, bringing a third into your relationship, asking him if he minded if you slept with someone else, spicing things up with something new you haven't tried.

Posted by Crinoline on June 20, 2012 at 10:52 AM · Report this
@21 - you got it backwards, fucknut.
Posted by blahdiblah on June 20, 2012 at 10:57 AM · Report this
aureolaborealis 29
Let me start by saying that this week's boyfriend seems like a bit of a turd, but there is a minor point that keeps coming up that I find a little irritating:

When did "giving" your female partner orgasms become a macho thing? I am now firmly of the belief that we are all ultimately responsible for our own orgasms, but when I was coming up, the pressure to "provide" for your partner was a sort of pseudo-feminist expectation, and the macho thing was banging away at your partner without giving a shit whether she came or not.
Many of my early sex partners had internalized this ... I was to give them orgasms if I was a decent, "enlightened" guy. And no, we're not talking about letting her come first, or some variation; I was responsible for everyone's orgasms. In retrospect, it seems ridiculously passive for young feminists, but it was what it was.

So we have a generation or two of straight young men who were trained that "giving" orgasms was required of them to be decent, caring lovers, then we ridicule them as macho douche-bags for having hang-ups when they fail?

"Young man, you are expected to give your partner orgasms, whether she helps or not. Your decency as a lover and a human being will be judged based on this. If you meet this expectation, no one gives a shit about your motivation. If, however, you do not meet this expectation, and you don't care, you are a macho douche for not caring. If you do not meet this expectation and you DO care, you are a macho douche for caring."
Posted by aureolaborealis on June 20, 2012 at 11:20 AM · Report this
ScienceNerd 30
Holy cowza! SPANK's boyfriend must be my ex. It took me a long time to realize he was manipulating me in various ways.

The best day of my life was the day I dumped him. DTMFA!!!
Posted by ScienceNerd on June 20, 2012 at 11:35 AM · Report this
Antoinette 31
To SPANK, I was you a few years ago. Follow Dan's advice. Please, please don't waste any more of your life on this manipulative asshole. There's alot of guys out there who would be happy to have a woman in their life who's interested in sex. Your boyfriend is in the process of brainwashing you so you're confused about what is normal and what is screwed up. You must already know this, which is why you wrote in. Yes, you are correct, something is wrong here and it's not you.

You say he's GGG, but um...he's actually not, though. He's rubbing your face in the fact that he prefers to rub one out himself rather than have sex with you. Don't be like me and wait 3 years to see if it gets better, trust me, it doesn't.

And, I get where #20 is coming from, but I don't think that's what's going on here at all.
Posted by Antoinette on June 20, 2012 at 12:02 PM · Report this
unknown_entity 32

A follow up to Dan's advice (A guy checking out other women's boobs is not a sign that he does not appreciate yours, he has an obligation be discrete), his looking at other women is more reflex than conscious thought. Guys could be at a funeral, in court, or any location where they should be non-aroused, if they see a an attractive woman the part of their brain that controls their sex drive will light up. The part of the brain that says "I am at a funeral and want to pay my final respects to my grandmother" does not veto the part of the brain that reacts to visual stimulus.

However, building on Dan's point about the discretion, while your boyfriend does not have control initial "check out the hot woman" reflex, he has control of everything else. After the initial glance or quick turn of the head he is obligated to stop looking. If he is leering/staring/craning his neck or acting like he is in a Jersey Shore audition, then you are entitled to call him out.
Posted by unknown_entity on June 20, 2012 at 12:05 PM · Report this
@19 this is horribly unoriginal, but I'd suggest having a direct discussion with him about your sex life during a relaxed time. Doesn't sound like the current situation should continue indefinitely-- maybe he's just a low-libido person? maybe he's masterbating more often than he lets on? maybe he's a closet-case? who knows? But you could try opening up, prefacing by saying how much you enjoy your relationship and his qualities, but have been having less intimacy than you'd prefer. See if he registers that as an issue or if he tries to just sweep it under the rug. I'm also curious how the quality of the sex is that you're having. Is it mind-blowing? just meh? As countless SL letters demonstrate, long-term relationships usually blow up my widely disparate sex appetites, so find out if there's any potential/willingness on his part to explore if/how he can up his ante on this..
Posted by freshnycman on June 20, 2012 at 12:05 PM · Report this
AFinch 34
@SPANK - Definitely, DTMFA. If he's masturbating instead of having sex with you, his partner, then he's got issues - intimacy issues or fear of commitment issues or whatever you want to call them. He is having a hard time opening up with you and masturbation is safe and easy because it doesn't involve getting close to another person.

Posted by AFinch on June 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM · Report this
Tim Horton 35
@29 - well said.

Also, it's nice to be able to "give" your partner an orgasm. Its an ego boost, a real powerful feeling. I am sure I am not alone when I say some of my fondest sexual memories is seeing my partner in a gooey glob of bliss in response to my macho sexual superior abilities (patent pending).

This isn't to say there is anything wrong with women who can only cum from mechanical assistance, or from guys who can only ejaculate from the masturbation death grip. But I would feel an itsy bit sad if I was unable to bring Mrs. Horton to a screaming climax through conventional means, e.g. fucking, oral, etc.
Posted by Tim Horton on June 20, 2012 at 12:43 PM · Report this
BOOB should DTMFA because he's not going to change. BOOB is not insecure; her bf is an abusive asshole with impulse control issues (and probably a lot of other issues, too).

You can do a whole lot better than that jerk, BOOB. And if you can't, there are worse things than being alone.
Posted by Writer on June 20, 2012 at 12:50 PM · Report this
@25 I was cheering for you until the third paragraph, that was just cold and slightly out there.

@29 While the whole "responsibility" thing can get out of control and be a damned if you do, damned if you don't; being in charge of your own orgasms in partnered sex just doesn't make sense unless you're talking about the woman's orgasm which gives the whole argument a passive aggressive edge of sexism. If I'm giving a blowjob, get up halfway thru, and just casually throw out the phrase "take care of it yourself" my partner would be perfectly in the right to be like "WTF?". It would be correctly interrupted as something slightly contemptuous and not exactly healthy in a long term relationship.

On the other hand, if I was going all out and he just couldn't climax then he should tell me so we can determine a different route. I've had a partner who needed thirty minute blow-jobs, which are not a lot of fun on the performers end.

So no, you shouldn't be "responsible" for making your partner come. But you should be responsible for providing the (reasonable) conditions that make it possible for your partner to come. If they have special needs it should be on them to be upfront about it. Plus, I get off on my partners getting off, that's part of the big allure of having partnered sex. If I didn't enjoy it I'd just go down to the local sex shop for what I needed and spare both parties the time and effort.
Posted by mygash on June 20, 2012 at 12:57 PM · Report this
@4 - I love the T as superhero symbol one! I don't see it as identifying the wearer as trans though. I plan on buying one later this week and I'm a cisgender female. Most people won't know what it means and if anyone asks, I plan on telling them it is in support of transgendered people.

@21 - Looks like you're an asshole anyway. It is not just a boob job and he is not a she.
Posted by daphne24 on June 20, 2012 at 12:57 PM · Report this
@21: He's a transman, you dumbfuck- as in he needs to get rid of his boobs, not make them bigger. Jesus.

@19: You've been with him for five years and you somehow can't talk about this with him? You need to tell him. You need to tell him that the amount of sex you're currently having is not cutting it for you, you need to tell him about all the crazy things you've been doing in the hopes of getting some, and you need to tell him about how you haven't been really coming onto him because of how much the rejection is hurting you. Not speaking up is not helping you, and it also probably has nothing to do with how attractive you are to him in any way.

My partner is slightly lower-libidoed than I am. If it were up to him, I'd get close to but not quite enough sex to satisfy me. When he really doesn't feel like it, he turns me down; when he's merely not horny, he lets me get him there and enjoys himself in the moment. There's no reason your partner can't do that for you. You probably won't get as much sex as you'd like, but you should get more than you're having.

Also, if you find you can't put up with it, there are LOADS of guys out there with higher libidos who can probably be for you what your boyfriend currently is. People act like it's extremely rare to find someone who you can be happy with, but I really don't think it is.
Posted by alguna_rubia on June 20, 2012 at 1:54 PM · Report this
Yeah, 21, I am feeling you. I am unsure why I must work to pay for other people's elective cosmetic surgeries.

But hey, I suppose if I ever want to get a butt lift or some tats, I can send all the trans folks the bill, now that we are sharing costs all around. There is always an upside to things!

SPANK: move on.

BOOB: men look at other women. We also masturbate with other women in mind. They do those things from about age 13 until somewhere in their 70s. Get used to it. Men will not change...except for the trans op folks, of course.
Posted by Snowguy on June 20, 2012 at 1:54 PM · Report this
In the brain, recognition, memory, and pleasure centers all react faster than cognitive processing centers. That is to say that events will happen in the following order:
1) Man sees boobs (brain receives ocular input, identifies as boobs)
2) Pleasure centers light up
3) Cognitive facilities FINALLY kick in and remind him that he's somewhere where registering pleasure is a bad idea (at a funeral, in front of an insecure girlfriend, personal response in conflict with inculcated feminist dogma, et cetera).

That's not to say he isn't still duty bound to be discreet. It's just that the part that handles being discreet doesn't run as fast as the other parts.
Posted by avast2006 on June 20, 2012 at 2:30 PM · Report this
I wanted to give a resounding AMEN to your response to "BOOB" from today (6/20/12). I have had to explain this phenomenon enough times to come up with a handy analogy; cars.

I have a great car and I love it. However, if a Ferrari or Bugatti drives by, I'm going to look. It's an exotic car, rare, and beautiful. However, I do not want to own one of those cars. They're expensive to buy, expensive to own, and I'd worry about damage when parking.

Similarly, I have a great wife and I love her. However, if a beautiful woman is in my view, I'm going to look. It's because I can appreciate fine things in their natural state, not because I have any dissatisfaction with what I already have going on at home.

That issue has always bothered me when women react defensively towards it. Your observations were spot on, touched a nerve, and I was motivated to tell you so. You got it 100% right.

Posted by snarkulufugus on June 20, 2012 at 2:37 PM · Report this
I see it like this- If you're at the stage in your relationship where you're shoving parts of yourselves in one another (even if it's only 3 times a month on average), you're at the stage where you can talk about said shoving of parts.

The only way to know if he's being controlling, is to bring it up with him. That's how SPANK has realised she's dating a controlling arsehole, she talked to him about it and he showed his true colours.

And think about how important sex is to you. It sounds pretty important, so is it really something you're willing to give up for this guy? Because that might be your Price of Admission.

Personally, I've been in that relationship and made the mistake of ending it badly, rather than just ending it. Don't make my mistake. If you really care about this guy, sit down and talk with him and if it sounds like he's not for you, then find someone who is. They are out there.
Posted by Imperfekto on June 20, 2012 at 2:49 PM · Report this
Nobody is forcing anyone to pay for anything. The guy is selling t-shirts to help other people like him. I think that's pretty selfless in itself. I'm pretty sure designing them, advertising them, posting them etc counts as work.

If you want to do the same to pay for your butt lift, nobody is stopping you. I doubt anyone would buy them, what with you being a stupid twat and all.
Posted by maybeornot on June 20, 2012 at 2:49 PM · Report this
To those saying that Aydian should get a 2nd job-- um, designing shirts, having them made, creating a website, shipping orders, etc. *is* his 2nd job, and a legitimate way to make money. No one's obligated to buy the shirts. He's not asking for a hand-out. Jeez.
Posted by OregonAmber on June 20, 2012 at 2:56 PM · Report this
I fart under the covers all the time. I get shit for it (phrasing!), but I enjoy having a partner to menace. I apologize ... with a smile. It's a celebration of being a biological machine and a human. To hell with the niceties of gender! There is nothing more "I am woman, hear me toot."

Had CWF ever had an orgasm before? I wasn't sure by her letter. If not, she could be reassured that having had some makes it easier to have one with a partner, even an insecure and controlling one.

What is BOOBS going to do when her breasts aren't so beautiful and perfect as to be enough for one man? Just give up?

I like boobies sexually (though I'm generally a straight woman as far as I can tell) and seriously, there is something amazing about them that you can't NOT look at.

Dave @42 has a good point. We all look at beautiful things for beauty's sake, not necessarily out of desire.
Posted by Gloria on June 20, 2012 at 3:00 PM · Report this
Dear BOOB,

I have the cutest puppy in the world and my girlfriend loves to play with him. I'm worried because when we walk in the park my girlfriend looks at the other dogs in the park - sometimes she even pets them! Does this mean that she doesn't love my puppy? Should I dump her now before she hurts my puppy?


My wife lets me look at other women's bodies (discretely) as much as I want, but I'm only allowed to play with hers. Same for her looking at other men's bodies.
Posted by bbbbbb on June 20, 2012 at 3:11 PM · Report this
I'm not arguing with Dan's response to BOOBS, just wanted to point out that while guys are conditioned to ogle boobs from puberty, women are conditioned to place an inordinate amount of value on their physical appearance from puberty, as well. This understandably creates insecurity/self consciousness and some level of competitiveness with other women.

I'm only saying that because judging a woman for her insecurities is as lame as judging a man for his boob ogling.
Posted by It's All About Conditioning on June 20, 2012 at 3:22 PM · Report this
@snarkulufugus/Dave/comment 42,

I understand your analogy (I've heard it in varying forms from guys) and it's a good way to explain it.

But, consider that women may act defensively because (using your own analogy) it's a bit like being told- You're not a Ferrari. You're not as hot, exotic or exciting as that woman over there. But, you're reliable and don't need as much work, so I chose you.

What every little girl dreams of being told! :P

Truth is, we all want to be treated like the Ferrari, at least by the people we're with.

And that doesn't always happen because there are jerks out there. Jerks who think "I'm with you though" is a magical pass to act in whatever disrespectful manner they want. I dated a jerk like that and turns out him 'coming home' to me wasn't that great of a pay off.

You don't sound like a jerk. So, your wife probably feels like a Ferrari in your eyes and that's what's important. My current guy isn't a jerk. He perves, but he doesn't do it in a way that makes me feel like he's just 'settled'. If more people did that, then perving would be easier for them.

But peoples is stoopid.

Posted by Imperfekto on June 20, 2012 at 4:09 PM · Report this
Idid, you weren't paying attention. Aydian is a guy, hence the "he" pronouns. He's trying to get his body to look like a guy's body and not like a woman's body.

Also, selling T-shirts isn't a way of getting out of work, it is work, so chill on that overdone get-a-job crud, okay?
Posted by so yeah well on June 20, 2012 at 4:19 PM · Report this
What is it with people writing to Dan saying how GGG they and their loved ones are, then going on to describe the opposite? It's getting to the point where if I see somebody wearing a GGG t-shirt, I'm not sure I'm going to take that claim at face value...

SPANK, your partner is not GGG. Not even close - he has maybe one G out of three. Remember that the other two mean "giving" and "game"? He is not giving. He is not game. What you've got there is a 1G boyfriend.

Reflective, don't settle. Staying with this guy will erode your self esteem and etch deep grooves of sadness and frustration in your brain.

Both of you, dump the motherfuckers already.
Posted by LiveAndLet on June 20, 2012 at 4:34 PM · Report this
@48 Guys aren't conditioned to look at boobs, they naturally want to. Also men are just as competitive with other men as women are with each other (though most of the time it seems they're better sports about it). They're also insecure/self-conscious about things (hair, penis size, how "built" they are & etc.) The only difference is a rack is easier to ogle than a penis in general. Long live speedos! Honestly though who describes their junk as perfect?
Posted by mygash on June 20, 2012 at 4:36 PM · Report this
@49 FTW
Posted by mygash on June 20, 2012 at 4:41 PM · Report this
Re SPANK's letter: I can't remember a time I disagreed with your advice, Dan (and I've been reading you for many years), and I don't completely disagree here. SPANK's man may be an asshole, and it may be time to dump him -- but I'd have to bet there's something else going on with him. (I read only a few comments here, so pardon me if I'm repeating someone else's observation.) SPANK reports that her boyfriend tells her he's masturbating a lot, even when she's at work. I'd want to know more about what's going on with him. Is he out of work? Is he otherwise depressed (clinically or not)? Are there other things he's trying to avoid? Probably, you'd think.

As someone who probably masturbates out of depression sometimes (and does my very best to hide it, unlike SPANK's man; it does have an asshole aspect to it with him), a heart-to-heart might have to focus less on the masturbation and the obnoxious recounting of it and more about what's the hell is going on in his life. I probably would be quick to deny that my masturbation and depression were related to someone else, but it's a good bet they are in fact connected. And they may be for this guy.

And since SPANK reports an otherwise good connection to him, I'd vote for working to get him back to normal before getting rid of him.
Posted by Jseas on June 20, 2012 at 5:18 PM · Report this
mydriasis 55
@44 YES

@49 Yes

@52 I wouldn't agree with your assessment that men are 'better sports' about competition. I've found myself in the middle of more than one "love-triangle" in my time and I definitely did not get that impression at all.
Posted by mydriasis on June 20, 2012 at 5:51 PM · Report this
# 21 has an EXCELLENT POINT. Why the hell should anyone ante up for some head case's "sex change"? PAY FOR IT YOURSELF!

And all that BS about "psychiatric evaluation" prior to a sex change is just that: BULLS.HIT. I have met a few of these pre-surgery types; they were full on wingnuts, and no mistake, and yet their path to surgery was smoothed for them every inch of the way...d'ye think the fact that the docs and the pharmaceutical companies make THOUSANDS of dollars off these head cases might have anything to do with it?
Posted by Fluctibus on June 20, 2012 at 5:52 PM · Report this
Ms Hopkins - CWF is deceptively interesting. I'm largely inclined to agree with you, but I note that the BF's age is not given, nor is the duration of their sexual relationship specified. I'm half inclined to place him at 25 or older and think she should have dumped him a while ago, but if he's about her age I'd want to look more deeply into how he came by his attitude. It certainly doesn't seem that the pair has approached the situation as a team, but that could be as much her doing as his, or more.

Again, no horse in this race, but how legitimate a dealbreaker is this? From the other side, there were people telling that recent LW to dump her "unskilled" BF who couldn't "give" her any.

The paragraph below is entirely humorous, inspired by my inner novelist (and, yes, I'm sure I could flip this):

It almost seems as if there's no right answer if an unscrupulous woman wants relationship power and the moral high ground. If he wants to go on, he's an insecure control freak. If his self-esteem is intact, he's an inconsiderate jerk. If he asks whether she wants to keep trying, he's abdicating the driver's seat (and Ms Driasis will pour boiling scorn on his head). And if he lies about his gut reaction, Ms Erica will pay Tonya Harding's ex-husband to whack his knee.
Posted by vennominon on June 20, 2012 at 6:03 PM · Report this
Oh, I forgot - I did give CWF a point for phrasing - "I've never had" instead of "He's never given".

And for the record, I hold Ms Driasis' and Ms Erica's reactions to various other situations to be perfectly legitimate. It wasn't a dig at either - I just tend on occasion to plot by throwing a lot of random mental darts that tend to stick on odd points.
Posted by vennominon on June 20, 2012 at 6:11 PM · Report this
mydriasis 59
@ Ven

Posted by mydriasis on June 20, 2012 at 6:11 PM · Report this
3 LWs, all hetero females.

BOOB is an idiot. Is that a tautology? If he doesn't want to look at them, she should DTMFA, because he wouldn't be a hetero male. She can enlighten him regarding his public behavior.

CWF? Dan's right, of course. Likely time to move on.

SPANK-- I initially thought this was just a difference of sex drives, but it's not. If he's very frequently masturbating, his drive isn't low. He's just not attracted to her, or he'd be fucking her, not his right hand. Could be a closet case.

Posted by Hunter78 on June 20, 2012 at 7:09 PM · Report this
My own boobs are not perfect. They don't need to be in order to be beautiful. I also really enjoy looking at other women's boobs. Seriously, the curves of a breast are simply lovely. I don't blame men one bit for enjoying a nice pair of breasts. I often will point out a noteworthy set to my husband, lest he misses the opportunity to enjoy them also.

Avast @6, it's not so much that a vibrator is necessary as it is that it's just a good extra to have. I'm a bit confused that this young woman has never simply used her fingers to get herself off. Or would the douchenozzle boyfriend object to that also?

And it is beyond selfish to masturbate several times daily rather than have sex with one's partner. What a dick.
Posted by catballou on June 20, 2012 at 7:32 PM · Report this
mydriasis 62
I hear a lot of women say how much they like a nice pair of boobs.

I'm more of an ass girl myself.

P.S. if I overheard a woman pointing out my (completely overexposed) cleavage to her husband I'd be flattered, but I'd probably also be thinking "really? Give me a break, lady." So... yeah discretion is good in all cases.
Posted by mydriasis on June 20, 2012 at 7:56 PM · Report this
@55 Of course, this is a gross generalization and there are excepts; "Men tend to boil over, women tend to simmer". Personally, I'd rather get any nastiness out of the way in one go than deal with random attacks about things that happened a decade ago. I try to set a four month max angry recall limit for myself just because I'm an introvert surrounded by passive aggressive control freaks.

And seriously, angry love triangles end in high school. I sincerely hope you're not one of those girls who "forgets" to define the nature of their interactions.
Posted by mygash on June 20, 2012 at 11:45 PM · Report this
I think many men underestimate the effect masturbation has on their sex drive. I went into my thirties thinking I could still spank it every day like I did in my teens and twenties, and still be up for sex with my wife. That just isn't true. My body doesn't respond as quickly as it did in previous decades, and it takes longer for my libido to recover after orgasm. My general policy now is that I masturbate maybe two or three times a week, but only on days when I'm pretty sure I'm not getting any sex. Sometimes I go longer without masturbating, simply because I like to build up that sexual tension. Anyway, my point is that a man's libido is not some infinite resource. It seemed infinite to us in our teens and twenties, but eventually you have to go into conservation mode and start saving it for actual sex, rather than jerking off.
Posted by idfriendly on June 21, 2012 at 4:26 AM · Report this
mydriasis 65

Yeah they do end around there, and no, I'm not. I just meant that I haven't found it to be true even in the general sense - personally.
Posted by mydriasis on June 21, 2012 at 5:44 AM · Report this
Tim Horton 66
@19 Reflective - I like what @27 said re your options.

From a male perspective, I would start with a fairly straightforward request to him. Try something like "I really love it when you initiate sex." If you can get him to initiate, really reinforce how great it was for you. Also, give him a specific task, like "I want you to buy me lingerie, or give me sex coupons for my birthday." Offer to trade sexual fantasies, and go first.

If after a while the “subtle-but-not-so-subtle” conversations don't work, then you need to have the very direct one. The lack of sex in the relationship makes you feel (pick any number of: lonely, frustrated, unwanted, ugly, platonic, etc.). Make it clear you need more sex to feel fulfilled. If that doesn't work, then accept your fate with him or leave.

I had this conversation with Mrs. Horton. Deep down she knew, as your boyfriend probably does, that their partner feels sexually neglected. When I realized I was about to cheat, I figured I owed it to her to at least make it as clear as possible how the lack of sex was making me feel.

Finally, If I were you, I would knock off all the nuanced hopeful behavior. Stop waiting up for him in bed, giving him signs you want sex but not pushing for it, getting him drunk, etc. It is only making you more disappointed when the inevitable happens. Ultimately, as much as this sucks to acknowledge, you can't make someone want to fuck you. You can only control your own behavior. So keep going to the gym, get in good shape, flirt, masturbate frequently so the urges don't build up, have a rich fantasy life, etc.

Good luck!
Posted by Tim Horton on June 21, 2012 at 6:57 AM · Report this
As far as BOOB goes, it's no secret that men are hard-wired to look at other women. BOOB might just be a really insecure woman who hasn't accepted the way the male brain works, but then again, maybe her bf is more obnoxious about it than the average guy. It's one thing to sneak a peek, but it's another thing to openly gawk and drool.
Posted by Pretty titties on June 21, 2012 at 7:36 AM · Report this
sissoucat 68
@37 I don't know how you've been raised - but I've always known that my only way to prove myself a valuable woman, was to find a man who would do me the huge favor of marrying me. No matter that I was a straight As student. Without a husband and kids I would always be "poor her, unable to have a husband".

When one fially rids oneself of one's brainwashing, and stares at the hard realities, be assured that it won't look like be pink clouds and butterflies. It will be cold.
Posted by sissoucat on June 21, 2012 at 9:00 AM · Report this
aureolaborealis 69
@37: I think you misunderstood what I was saying (willfully?). Responsibility for your own orgasm doesn't mean every sexual encounter is mutual masturbation, nor does it imply/excuse any assholery. It just means each of us comes to the table with some idea of what pleases us, and makes some effort to move things in that direction. That could mean, for example, anything from offering a little verbal guidance, to reaching down and helping things along ourselves.
Posted by aureolaborealis on June 21, 2012 at 9:48 AM · Report this
So how about all you fucking assholes who are asking for handouts start working harder for your money and start saving instead of asking people to pay for your elective and non-government covered surgeries. Don't ask mom and dad for a boob job, don't ask strangers for your sex change....QUIT THE SHIT. Sames goes for the assholes who are donating to the woman who got "bullied" on the bus and somehow she yielded $200K in sympathy all fucking suck.
Posted by fuckyouall on June 21, 2012 at 10:10 AM · Report this
Couldn't Wait Forever - your orgasms don't belong to your boyfriend. He has no right to dictate when and how you masterbate. Tell him to mind his own business.
Posted by kersy on June 21, 2012 at 10:22 AM · Report this

Context is *everything*.

Think of it this way. Your boyfriend is ogling other boobs left, right and center. He's comparing them to yours. And you're winning. Every. Single. Time. Your boobs are that fucking awesome (perfect, as you point out).

My wife and I have an open relationship, and I date other people. Not as often as I used to now that we have young children, but it still happens on occasion. And I can't count the number of times I've been with someone and thought to myself "oh, thank the gods I married my wife!" Will there someday be a day where I date someone who's even better than my wife? I suppose it's *possible*. Would I leave my wife for that person? Hell no. Because she's fucking *awesome*!

Posted by gromm on June 21, 2012 at 10:27 AM · Report this
@70: Yeah, better to just yell at people.
Posted by avast2006 on June 21, 2012 at 10:50 AM · Report this
@68 No, I understand where you're coming from. I will always remember my grandmother lamenting me being too ugly and fat to find a partner in my pre-teens when I a size ten and had bad rosaeca.

All of the marriages in my family have been complicated to say the least (spousal abuse, infidelity & etc.). Even my dead relatives' pictures look consistently depressed and frustrated. So yes, I'm intimately familiar with the dark side of partnerships and deathly afraid of such commitments. Still I'm old enough now to have seen ones that are healthy and to realize that, even if it scares the hell out of me, that's what I want.

I just think defining the male in a long term relationship as some kind of leech is a gross mischaracterization. I applaud you for doing what you do for your family. Most stay at home moms I've known don't display that passion. And to do it on your own is even more amazing, I sure as hell doubt I could.
Posted by mygash on June 21, 2012 at 11:58 AM · Report this
John Horstman 75
@29, 35: It's the result of memetic mutation. The idea was not intended as making it a man's responsibility to get his partner off, but that he should be concerned for his partner's enjoyment/pleasure and not focused only on his own. Unfortunately, when one throws that idea out into a sexist culture, it gets twisted along cultural gendered agency lines - since women are still often culturally constructed as lacking agency, "man being concerned about his partner's enjoyment" becomes "man is responsible to make sure everyone has an orgasm" because he's still the only one allowed to exercise agency. The macho twist is especially objectifying: hinging male ego on the ability to 'make' a partner get off casts the partner as only a passive object over whose sexual response the man has ultimate control (you can't really feel like you've failed unless you believe you were in control of the outcome). It's incredibly sexist, and only slightly better than the "bang away and not give a fuck about your partner" attitude, since the partner's sexual response is at least acknowledged. Men everywhere need to understand that their partners are actual people over whose orgasms (or any other behaviors/responses) the man ultimately doesn't have control (those who don't already get it, of course).

Women: this is a sexist attitude. If you're dating a man and he's doing this, tell him to knock it the fuck off*, and if he can't/won't DTMFA and find a decent sex partner. Also, while I realize there are sometimes barriers to asserting agency and particularly sexual agency, in any healthy relationship you should be able to assert yourself without, say, fearing for your safety and well-being. If you're in such a healthy relationship, you need to do this; if you're not, perhaps consider looking for exit strategies.

*unless a partner who doesn't care about you or acts like ze doesn't during sex is your kink, in which case, power to you.
Posted by John Horstman on June 21, 2012 at 12:05 PM · Report this
@69 Sorry, I misunderstood. We essentially agree, just not on wording. Whenever the responsibility tag line get's used the cliche of the dude sleeping while the chick sighs and pulls out the vibe seems to pop up in my head.
Posted by mygash on June 21, 2012 at 12:13 PM · Report this
Tim Horton 77
@75, thanks for clarifying. I used to selfishly bang away. Then, I became focused on making my partner orgasm, and took pride in that, but now realize that is almost as sexist. Now I firmly reside in the camp of setting the right conditions to allow my equal partner to decide both whether she feels like having an orgasm and to let her freely and enthusiastically determine my participation in that aspect of her pleasure. My metamorphosis is complete.

I gotta tell you though. I miss the days of "just fucking."

Do gay men deal with this?
Posted by Tim Horton on June 21, 2012 at 12:24 PM · Report this
@69 I'm sorry I misunderstood you. I can assure you I didn't mean to post for the purpose of being needlessly rude/snobish, though in hindsight I can see how it came off as that. We essentially agree, just not on wording.

@75 I never bothered to think it through that far. Makes sense though and really eases some of the pressure of sex, which is probably a bigger problem than anything else when it comes to orgasming anyway. And it doesn't blame the feminists, yay!
Posted by mygash on June 21, 2012 at 12:28 PM · Report this
Damn you, Internet Explorer. Sorry for the double post.
Posted by mygash on June 21, 2012 at 12:29 PM · Report this
Some of these comments are harsh and insulting, especially to transpeople, but across the board, sparing no gender really. I think GGG can be extrapolated for use outside of the bedroom (or neighborhood park ;) !). Good--respectful and thoughtful of others' humanity at least. Giving--okay, not so much equal time and pleasure maybe, but how about equal giving of consideration and courtesy--the same as we'd like to get. And game--let's aim down instead of up this time. Down for acceptance of and appreciation for all kinds of diversity.

If you can't manage it in a comments section among your peers, how do you flip a switch and turn it on in bed? I like looking AND T-shirts (and 'til today, I thought most everybody else did too). And really, shouldn't everyone 16 years of age and older own a vibrator? Like the cocktail of lithium and xanax in the water table, this would cut down on irritability considerably--in the personal and in print.
Posted by kait on June 21, 2012 at 12:41 PM · Report this
aureolaborealis I totally agree it is your own responsabilty to 'take' your own orgasm. At least when you first start having sex, im 24 ive been having sex for five years and there have maybe been three or four occasions when my partner 'gave' me an orgasm.
I regularly climax during sex as does my boyfriend but i haven't made him come and neither has he, we kind of use each other for our own sexual needs. He enjoys sex more than masterbation, I come harder when I'm masterbating and having sex at the same time. We love each other very much and have found making ourselves come is the best way of ensuring we both come during sex.
Posted by hisushi24 on June 21, 2012 at 12:49 PM · Report this
crivins 82
Just chiming in with support for Aydian. Any kind of breast surgery is expensive, and insurance is iffy at the best of times. Great shirts, and good luck!
Posted by crivins on June 21, 2012 at 1:02 PM · Report this
@29, here is the difference I think.

It is a decent, caring thing to do to try to make your partner climax. This shows that their pleasure matters to you.

But, if this does not happen through penetrative sex, this is not a reason for the man to feel ashamed. The negative behavior of this boyfriend is that he insisted she only orgasm from "his" doing. He would be a caring partner if he appreciated that she needed focused clitoral stimulation, and helped her in discovering that. He shouldn't feel bad that he can't "make" her come. That's not right or fair.
He would also be a douche if he did not care at all--if she did not finish, and told him this, and he was indifferent.
Posted by 195302 on June 21, 2012 at 1:27 PM · Report this
mydriasis 84
Now I firmly reside in the camp of setting the right conditions to allow my equal partner to decide both whether she feels like having an orgasm and to let her freely and enthusiastically determine my participation in that aspect of her pleasure. My metamorphosis is complete.

I gotta tell you though. I miss the days of "just fucking."

Sweet jesus.
I hope that I stay firmly at the 'just fucking' phase forever. After all, I'm a boorish, chauvenistic pig who's most happy when her man "selfishly bangs away" and gets off as a byproduct.
Posted by mydriasis on June 21, 2012 at 2:13 PM · Report this
mydriasis 85

People like you are on of the reasons why I'm huuugely put off by feminism. Or at least the prescriptive, uninclusive, joyless brand of feminism that seems to dominate today.

Posted by mydriasis on June 21, 2012 at 2:16 PM · Report this
aureolaborealis 86
@75: I think we basically agree, (you, too, mygash), but you are assuming that the only people buying into or thinking they're benefiting from this disfunctional paradigm are men, and that is simply not true.
Posted by aureolaborealis on June 21, 2012 at 2:29 PM · Report this
aureolaborealis 87
@75: It's cute that in the middle of describing this phenomenon stripping agency from women, you strip women of all agency in the matter.
Posted by aureolaborealis on June 21, 2012 at 2:34 PM · Report this
@84 I think it's all context and communication. Somedays a woman may need to be grabbed, bent over, and thrust into. Others bouncing on top. Somedays maybe just a hand job. And etc. But if you need the same thing everytime then I don't see how more communication somehow excludes you. And if it does, look at this way; there'll be more boorish, chauvenistic men freed up for NSA sex with you when their unsatisfied girls dump them.
Posted by mygash on June 21, 2012 at 2:56 PM · Report this
#84 & 85, I bet you fancy yourself the "cool girlfriend" but you sound like a fucking doormat.
Posted by Some dude who hates dumb chicks on June 21, 2012 at 3:31 PM · Report this
This letter hit me at just the wrong/right time in my life right now.
I'm in a slightly different but similar situation (I even wrote Dan for help but got no word). I'm a guy, early 30's with a normal high-sex drive while my long-term partner/girlfriend has a "supposedly" low sex-drive. But she's happy to go off and have sex with another woman she's cheating on me with. She claims she's not just gay, but right now it sure looks that way to me. Why don't I dump her? Because we've built a life together. Years and years together. It's not that easy. With her pushing me I'm trying to find new partners (online dating sites mostly) but no luck. I know, I know what a totally fucking stupid sap I am being. Just writing this down makes me feel stupid/used. Ug
Posted by alexpdxer on June 21, 2012 at 3:45 PM · Report this
ScienceNerd 91
@68... wait... seriously? I reread your post many times and I have concluded it can only be sarcasm.

"but I've always known that my only way to prove myself a valuable woman, was to find a man who would do me the huge favor of marrying me."

I am willing to accept most different types of relationships, but there is no way ANYONE should EVER consider their value by finding someone who would do the "huge favor". That's just sad. :(
Posted by ScienceNerd on June 21, 2012 at 4:28 PM · Report this
mydriasis 92

She was referring to the way she was taught to think about relationships when she was young - not her current opinion.

Did you read the whole post?
Posted by mydriasis on June 21, 2012 at 4:39 PM · Report this
@25 sissoucat: We're mostly on the same page, except one big difference is that I don't have kids. I like children (no, not to roast and eat!!), but remaining childless was my choice for many reasons: mostly economic, emotional and biological. I never thought I 'd have made a good parent (see @10). Pregnancy--the very word alone--- leaves me queasy. I was also once foolishly married to an abusive asshole who would have made the world's worst father.
And you're right, men usually don't get it, mainly because they'll never physically experience menstruation, pregnancy, labor and childbirth and what effects that has to a woman's body because they're not women, like us.

@46 Gloria: Whatever blows up your nightshirt!
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 21, 2012 at 5:07 PM · Report this
This letter hit me at just the wrong/right time in my life right now.
I'm in a slightly different but similar situation (I even wrote Dan for help but got no word). I'm a guy, early 30's with a normal high-sex drive while my long-term partner/girlfriend has a "supposedly" low sex-drive. But she's happy to go off and have sex with another woman she's cheating on me with. She claims she's not just gay, but right now it sure looks that way to me. Why don't I dump her? Because we've built a life together. Years and years together. It's not that easy. With her pushing me I'm trying to find new partners (online dating sites mostly) but no luck. I know, I know what a totally fucking stupid sap I am being. Just writing this down makes me feel stupid/used. Ug
Posted by alexpdxer on June 21, 2012 at 5:09 PM · Report this
I have thought once or twice it could be entertaining to lock Mr Horstman and Ms Driasis in a well-stocked room and not open the door until the number of living people in the room is odd.
Posted by vennominon on June 21, 2012 at 5:17 PM · Report this
mydriasis 96

Spoiler alert, I'd off myself if I had to listen to longer than 5 minutes of that kind of proselytising. :)
Posted by mydriasis on June 21, 2012 at 5:39 PM · Report this
94-alexpdxer-- Or here's another way to look at it. You're doing what feels right to you despite the way the rest of the world looks at it. Imagine saying to the world proudly:

I'm living with the woman I've built a life with. She's sleeping with a woman and may be gay. I don't care if everyone else thinks this makes me a dope; this is my situation and my decision. I own it. Right now the sex isn't great, but if I left her, the amount of sex with her would go from little to none, and the rest of our relationship is good. I've weighed the pros and cons, and this is what I've come up with. I'm working on making it better by trying to find new partners. That's in a bad spell right now, but I'm working on making it better. That puts me well ahead of most of the poor schlubs out there who complain and complain while never realizing that it makes more sense to make the best of what they've got while actively working to change what they can.
Posted by Crinoline on June 21, 2012 at 5:51 PM · Report this
@95: What it it turns out to be twins?
Posted by avast2006 on June 21, 2012 at 6:38 PM · Report this
I need help with my relationship Can you help me Dan?
Posted by Heartless1 on June 21, 2012 at 7:12 PM · Report this
mydriasis 100

Because rape jokes are super funny and not creepy or unsettling at all.
Posted by mydriasis on June 21, 2012 at 7:14 PM · Report this
@97: Interesting how different people pick different things out of the narrative. I didn't get the feeling that he considers this to be a choice on his part at all, let alone a choice to hold up to the rest of the world and say "Go to hell, world, I don't care what you all think." To me it sounds more like he has been left holding the bag, and doesn't like the current parameters one bit, but getting out isn't as simple as DTMFA, while staying in and trying it her way isn't working out nearly as rosy as she promised it would. That isn't about doing what feels right to him at all.

@94: My impression is that the whole "she claims to not be lesbian, but I think she really is" thing is a red herring. What would you be doing if it was another man that she was off cheating on you with, telling you all the while that she is just low-libido?

Bottom line, she has put another person in a place of sexual primacy, is fobbing off lies about being low-libido in order to duck sex with you, and is telling you to go take care of your own needs without her help. In other words, she no longer gives a shit about you as a sexual partner. She has left the relationship, sexually, but hasn't had the courtesy to pack her things. This has ceased to be a partnership.

I'm curious which one of you is trying harder to convince the other one to stay and make it work. I have a strong suspicion that it's her, and you are being railroaded by claims of needing to be more open-minded and accepting. Why would she want to leave? She has everything the way she wants it. You, on the other hand, aren't getting your needs met, and she doesn't seem interested even in meeting you halfway.

I agree with her on one count: you should go get yourself a new sex partner. Thing is, you probably will be much more successful if you don't have her around as baggage.

It is just possible that telling her that you are cutting her loose will shock her enough to realize that if she truly doesn't want to lose you, she had better start treating you like a fucking rock star for letting her sleep around. But I ain't holding my breath.
Posted by avast2006 on June 21, 2012 at 7:22 PM · Report this
@100: Who said anything about rape? The implied joke is that either one of you will kill the other (nothing funny about murder, either, right?) or that your fighting relationship will turn into unbridled passion. That's the _other_ non-stated outcome implied by the number turning odd. It can become 1, or it can become 3.

Geez, do I have to explain everything?
Posted by avast2006 on June 21, 2012 at 7:28 PM · Report this
T-shirt site guy: please make it easier to find and see the designs. I was confused, but maybe I'm stupid. Good luck!
Posted by neverbeenthere on June 21, 2012 at 7:31 PM · Report this
I understand that some women are anorgasmic and okay with it, but it boggles my mind that someone who (a) felt ready for sex at fifteen, (b) likes her boyfriend enough to stay with him five years, (c) can come in two minutes the first time she tries a vibrator has gone so many years without an orgasm. That really doesn't seem to me like a right or normal state of affairs.

And I can't understand why Dan thinks he knows for sure that "[she's] one of those women ... [who] require the kind of intense, focused stimulation that only a vibrator can provide in order to get off." Nothing wrong with vibrators, and it's good that she got one, but there are a hell of a lot of women who've never properly tried masturbation on their own, and that needs to be one of the steps in figuring sex out. You may end up not caring for it, or finding that a vibrator works way better for you, or whatever -- but to not even TRY seems like never trying kissing, or never trying nipple stimulation, or something. There are certainly people who get nothing out of those activities, but it's not the way to bet.
Posted by Eirene on June 21, 2012 at 8:25 PM · Report this
mydriasis 105

Yeah this super funny joke is all kinds of triggering for me so I'd rather you just drop it, actually. The fact that you wrote what you wrote and didn't think it would be upsetting shows that I have to explain everything.

And I'm not comfortable with that.
Posted by mydriasis on June 21, 2012 at 8:45 PM · Report this
Free Busch On Tuesday 106
SPANK, as a man who has a GGG girl who offers me sex everyday (or more)... DTMFA. If he loves-ish you, he'd be pounding you like yesterday's beef and giving you love squeezin's until the break of dawn. Why on earth anyone turns down daily sex is beyond me.
Posted by Free Busch On Tuesday on June 21, 2012 at 9:41 PM · Report this
@mydriasis The person you called a cunt a few days ago probably wasn't comfortable with that, either. Typical bully behavior, to treat other people like crap then cry about it when you're on the receiving end.
Posted by LiveAndLet on June 21, 2012 at 9:43 PM · Report this
I agree completely with avast (@101), which I think is a first.

Also, for the record, I love John Horstman's posts, and his analysis @75 in particular.

@87, where do you see him stripping women of all agency?

@Tim Horton, congrats on having that conversation with your wife! That's a new development, if I recall correctly?
Posted by EricaP on June 21, 2012 at 10:03 PM · Report this
Look, I'm the one thinking 1940's Hollywood romantic comedy, you're the one thinking rape scenario, but consider it dropped.
Posted by avast2006 on June 21, 2012 at 10:07 PM · Report this
@102 & @109: Is your theory of pairing Mr. Horstman and mydriasis supposed to be like pairing Randall Patrick McMurphy and Nurse Ratched?
Because he "fights and fucks too much"?
Otherwise, yeah, I'll drop it, too.
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 22, 2012 at 12:09 AM · Report this
mydriasis 111

Actually, calling someone manipulative for crying when they're being dumped and being completely callous towards the feelings of others is typical bully behaviour. Calling that person a cunt because they just showed that they kind of are one? Not so much.

@ Erica

I wouldn't use the term 'stripping of agency' but his post @ 75 is essentially a lot of him telling women what to do.


Posted by mydriasis on June 22, 2012 at 5:17 AM · Report this
aureolaborealis 112
@108: "... agency in the matter."

Read @75, first paragraph, again, and tell me where he describes women having anything to do with this phenomenon beyond being targets of it. My point is that (some) women contribute to and think they benefit from it, and he is completely ignoring that. He is ascribing all agency in the dynamic to men.
Posted by aureolaborealis on June 22, 2012 at 10:29 AM · Report this
The "idea" in line 1 is a feminist idea, at least his view of what feminists were proposing; and the "one" at line 4 is similarly him saying what he thinks feminists were doing. Presumably some of those feminists he's imagining as women.

He is not ascribing all agency in the dynamic to men; he also ascribes a lot of power to the "sexist culture," presumably men and women. And he ascribes some agency to the feminist women who were trying to achieve something else before the sexist society took over the meme.
Posted by EricaP on June 22, 2012 at 10:46 AM · Report this
aureolaborealis 114
And he ascribes some agency to the feminist women who were trying to achieve something else ...

I'll grant you that. What I'm objecting to is the idea that only men sustain and benefit from this meme, an idea that denies agency to women now.
Posted by aureolaborealis on June 22, 2012 at 11:10 AM · Report this
aureolaborealis 115
@113,114: I should add that I do think he's implying that only men are doing this, which is why I'm responding the way I am ...
Posted by aureolaborealis on June 22, 2012 at 11:14 AM · Report this
#19, this reminded me so much of my relationship with my first boyfriend: "I feel like I'm always living in hope that I'll get some and it completely determines my behavior--like I'll lie in bed on a weekend when I'd like to get up on the off chance that he'll be interested or I'll stay out late with him just in case he's keen when we get back to his."

You have to plan a conversation, and then sit down and talk with him. Be prepared for him to be upset when you talk to him. You can't run away from the conversation if he does get upset, or it will only be harder to bring up in the future. Yes, it might hurt him, but what's happening right now is hurting you. And in 10 years, when you're sick and tired of your life revolving around your sex deprivation, when you either leave him or cheat on him out of sheer desperation, you'll wish you had spoken up.

But if speaking up doesn't help--if the two of you can't find a solution (whether it's helping him explore some fantasies he hasn't shared or going to a doctor to talk about his libido)--you should seriously consider breaking up. There are plenty of funny, clever, caring, highly-social men out there who will gladly bang you every day (or at least 3 times a week).

In every relationship there will be some mismatch. There's no such thing as soul mates. But it's not "small stuff" when you're feeling so sex-starved that your every thought revolves around your next lay. It's better to have no boyfriend at all--and an attractive woman such as yourself could easily fill the gap with a fling--than to have one who leaves you frustrated and empty in such an important way.

Speak up now. And if you can't find a fix, find someone who is actually compatible with you instead. Good luck.
Posted by SilverChimera on June 22, 2012 at 12:43 PM · Report this
@ 97 and 101
Thanks for your thoughtful responses. Thank you. I wish there was a dedicated "Savage Forum" message board people could post questions and responses to. It seems like fans of Dan Savage might be able to help each other. Side note: Another couple's session today for my partner and I. Whoo!
Posted by alexpdxer on June 22, 2012 at 1:31 PM · Report this
#112, 115:

"...tell me where he describes women having anything to do with this phenomenon beyond being targets of it. My point is that (some) women contribute to and think they benefit from it... [H]e's implying that only men are doing this."

No, he's not. If he thought women played no role in this, he wouldn't have written that entire last paragraph addressing the part that women play in allowing and propagating these ideas. Also, his other paragraphs don't call out or blame either gender alone. He's saying, "Feminists (male *and* female) presented an idea to society (also comprised of men and women), but the idea was corrupted by the sexism that's prevalent in our society, and so men *and* women of mainstream society believed that the focus was shifting from "Sex is about men using women's bodies to achieve male pleasure" to "Sex is about men using women's bodies to achieve female pleasure." The true message was supposed to be, of course, "Sex is about both people working together to achieve mutual pleasure."

The fact that the message got twisted is not being blamed on men. The sexism in our culture caused the message to go askew, and both men and women promoted the false message without understanding where it was going wrong. If you disagree, quote me something from #75 that implies that men and men alone are contributing to this.
Posted by SilverChimera on June 22, 2012 at 1:33 PM · Report this

How is #75 in any way "prescriptive, uninclusive, joyless," etc.?

It's "prescriptive" to suggest that women should assert themselves as equals in a sexual relationship, and that men shouldn't be either A) entirely unconcerned with their partners' orgasms or B) entirely to blame if their partner doesn't come? It didn't exactly sound like a radical statement to me. Please explain. (And he even goes out of his way to allow for and accept those whose kink is power inequality. Hardly noninclusive.)

And it's only joyless if you think that sex where both people participate willingly and take responsibility for their own and each other's pleasure isn't fun. Does that not describe the sex you aim for?

The ability to analyze and break something down doesn't preclude the ability to enjoy a moment organically. I could write a dissertation on gallows humor. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy those jokes, or that I analyze them compulsively and joylessly. It just means I *can* analyze them in *addition* to enjoying them. Perhaps I misunderstand you. But it seems like a common response to imply that, if someone can approach sex in an intellectual way, that somehow they don't also take joy from it. And that's just ridiculous.
Posted by SilverChimera on June 22, 2012 at 1:57 PM · Report this
Is this a compulsory discussion pt?
Posted by Hunter78 on June 22, 2012 at 2:34 PM · Report this
Interestingly, Dan's response to today's letter of the day (…) says something similar to what #75 wrote about mutual pleasure being a mutual aim, and not one person's "fault" when sincere mutual effort goes awry. Dan criticizes a woman for "treating every lost erection like a personal rejection" and "blaming herself" as if it's a personal failure rather than a momentary physical obstacle to be mutually overcome. This is a nice parallel to the man who blames himself for his partner's failure to orgasm. Sex is a mutual endeavor. Blaming either yourself or your partner for blameless obstacles is entirely counterproductive to achieving mutual pleasure.
Posted by SilverChimera on June 22, 2012 at 2:47 PM · Report this
Sadly I can relate to SPANK's issue, but with an odd sort of twist: I'm the sexless partner in my equation.

I was 18 when I began seeing my boyfriend and I'm 26 now. I love him to death, but the sex has always been awful and after a while I just got tired of pretending otherwise. I tried masturbating in front of him to demonstrate, directing him during sex, using toys in bed, doing anal, exploring fetishes (both with him and other people), but nothing doing. I've never had an orgasm directly from partnered sex, though I have gotten close and finished myself off.

The thing with having a lower sex drive then your partner is the overwhelming feeling of failure. You desperately want to get aroused, you research it, you even go the "fake it til you make it" approach, but nothing. Your partner begins noticing the disparity and starts getting grabby; soon EVERY contact, even a hug, leads to some push for physical intimacy. Sometimes it makes you act like a dick who uses your sex drive to punish your partner (like SPANK's hopefully future ex-boyfriend) and sometimes it just makes you depressed and uninterested in sex completely.

What would you all do in a situation like that? If you were the one with the lower drive, knowing it will destroy your relationship if you can't turn it around, what would you do?
Posted by LeananAquarius on June 22, 2012 at 3:01 PM · Report this
What I would do in a situation like that is let the relationship die, and later, when I'm enjoying eye-opening sex with new people, thank my lucky stars that the first relationship ended.
Posted by LiveAndLet on June 22, 2012 at 3:31 PM · Report this
I'm a 36-year-old woman who has had dozens of partners over the years, several long-term, & I've never experienced another person getting me off. This has much to do, no doubt, with the fact that I've vigorously masturbated since I was very young ("in the crib", according to my mom!) I do enjoy being sexually stimulated by others, but never come close to reaching orgasm by penetration or manual/oral stimulation. This has been an issue for many of my male partners (women have never seemed to mind, incidentally - go figure), but the more mature among them have accepted that I'm still having fun w/them even if I'm the person who gets myself off in the end. Even most of the men who have been cool about it, though, have admitted that they wish they could get me off. There's always a bit of sadness on my part that I can't give them that experience - and I understand that, since making people come brings me a lot of enjoyment. I've tried just about every technique/position, though, including not masturbating for over a month, & nothing's changed, so I'm not sure what I can do other than accept that this is how I seem to be wired.
Posted by Rosy Palmer Knows Best on June 22, 2012 at 3:32 PM · Report this
Robin8 125
Remember when Yale undergraduates used to write phony problems in to Ann Landers in hopes of getting their letters in print?...LW1 sounds like one of those. Very few, if any, women would brag in a public forum that their boobs are beautiful and perfect (anyway, they're probably not, honey, so get over yourself), and moreover, she can't possibly be naïve enough to think guys don't look. Hell, even I look, and I'm a girl. (Well, okay, I'm a bi-chick, and I like naked women. But still.)

She's probably not old enough, either, to remember this classic by the Holy Modal Rounders:

EVERYONE looks at boobs.
Posted by Robin8 on June 22, 2012 at 3:47 PM · Report this
Dear Dan,

Do, like, 12 seconds of research before spouting misinformation:

Health insurance covered my bottom surgery in the US 100% (I was working at UC Berkeley at the time, and they had specifically negotiated this with two of the insurance plans they offer). Transgender employees of the City and County of San Francisco have surgery covered. UCSF students have up to $10K of surgery covered.


Posted by Lexy on June 22, 2012 at 4:25 PM · Report this
mydriasis 127

Tone makes the difference between "suggesting" and "prescriptive". Personally, I find

Women: this is a sexist attitude. If you're dating a man and he's doing this, tell him to knock it the fuck off*, and if he can't/won't DTMFA and find a decent sex partner.

To be bossy as fuck. You find it to be a "suggestion"... ah the magic of perception, right?

Though it's fine if you want to intellectualize sex, I prefer not to. I'm an intellectual person who overanalyzes everything. Sex is one of the few realms where I can truly let go of that, be in the moment, and enjoy something on a primal level. I appreciate that a great deal. Being told that I need* to dump someone because his attitude doesn't conform to the current feminist status quo is pretty damn prescriptive in my books. And in my case, also pretty joyless.

* Unless I consider my sexual preference to be a 'kink' in which case he so graciously granted me permission to stay with such a partner.
Posted by mydriasis on June 22, 2012 at 5:15 PM · Report this
@122, what exactly is the problem? Are you attracted to your bf? If not, break up with him (per the advice @123). Does his touch disgust you? Again, break up with him.

Is the problem that you used to feel more sexual? If so, are you on birth control hormones? They can destroy some women's libido. So you might go off and use condoms plus fertility awareness for a year, and see if you feel more horny.

Is the problem that he doesn't make you orgasm? Many women can only come from their own touch or a vibrator. I incorporate those into partnered sex (see 124) and mostly I'm content with that way of getting off. We do play around with him bringing me to the brink, and then letting me finish it off when I can't stand it any longer. Also, I sometimes get close to coming from his touch on the second or third orgasm, so I have hope that may improve in the future.

If none of what I've said describes your situation, maybe you could give us more information about what exactly is bothering you...
Posted by EricaP on June 22, 2012 at 5:23 PM · Report this
@128, Erica, I got married at 19 to my first serious boyfriend, and we ended up sexually disconnected and divorced by 23.

I don't know about LeananAquarius's situation, but I was disappointed in the sex because he GAVE UP. I had high hopes for orgasmic sex with him (and I'm talking about me having orgasms at all, not just PIV), but it seemed like he just got discouraged (very early in the relationship) and didn't even try anymore. And we didn't have the good communication skills/channels to try to fix it or even talk about what was going on.

I think the fact that we were both so young, inexperienced, uneducated and unable to talk to each other just doomed the relationship. Though there were plenty of other reasons we weren't a good match. Anyway, LeananAquarius saying the sex has always been awful, and her young age when they got together, makes me think of my old experience.
Posted by LiveAndLet on June 22, 2012 at 7:42 PM · Report this
@129 LiveAndLet----WOW!! Can I ever relate to you! Pretty much the same thing happened to me, until I just became completely disinterested in sex. My (now ex-)spouse lost interest a long time ago before we finally divorced
after nine unhappy years of marriage. It was actually a little bizarre: he expressed the desire to try some kinky stuff (threesomes, bondage, anal intercourse, etc.), but would then act like he was just joking about wanting it, becoming increasingly abusive, violent, and defensive. He was damaged goods, but I should have known better to have married him in the first place. We were not a good match, and better off going our separate ways.
Big question: are vibrators the best source of self stimulation for us women? Are dildos better?
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 22, 2012 at 8:54 PM · Report this
@129, I agree that it often makes sense to walk away from a relationship involving unsatisfying sex. But there was something odd about the letter that made me wonder if something else might be going on, that was in the LW's mind, but wasn't in the post. That's what I was trying to elicit.

@130, different strokes for different folks. What have you tried, what results have you gotten?
Posted by EricaP on June 22, 2012 at 10:23 PM · Report this
"Different strokes for different folks" - I love it :-)
Posted by LiveAndLet on June 22, 2012 at 10:38 PM · Report this
I am totally not sold on your analysis that SPANK's boyfriend is "intentionally, maliciously cruel". I am significantly less interested in sex than my girlfriend (her ideal: 3 or 4x a day - my ideal, 3 or 4x a week) and as you know, men's sexuality isn't as simple as it is portrayed on tv: masturbating isn't necessarily about sexual release, or horniness, etc.

For me, it's WAAAAY more about having my time to myself and having time where I don't have to think about others wants and needs and can actually focus just on what I want exactly the way I want it without feeling any bit guilty. Having sex is the exact opposite: It's almost exclusively about someone elses wants and needs; and even though my girlfriend is supremely attentive to my desires (as I am to hers) in bed, it does not relieve my desire for private; personal time. Yes, she is disappointed that times when I rebuff her advance; but there are other aspects of our relationship outside of the bed that make it work.

if SPANK and her boyfriend can't come to agreement, it may very well be to DTMFA; but to say that he's being intentionally cruel seems needlessly speculative.
Posted by fetish on June 23, 2012 at 9:37 AM · Report this
mydriasis 134

Okay first off, bias alert. If my bf was leaving me sexually unsatisfied but still finding time to masturbate - that would be the end of things. No question.

However, I think the maliciousness read into the letter is the bf constantly telling the girlfriend how much he masturbates.

Unless your girlfriend is completely understanding of why you masturbate, and that it is unrelated to your partnered sex life - then I think the polite thing to do is keep it discreet. Not a secret per se, but not bringing it up all the time. Since the LW clearly believes that her boyfriend's masturbation is an expression of horniness (and a considerate bf would realize that this is a very likely belief on her part) then it IS malicious for him to bring it up to her so much.

In my opinion.
Posted by mydriasis on June 23, 2012 at 10:49 AM · Report this
@131 EricaP and @132 LiveAndLet:: "Different strokes for different folks"--Good one!!
Back to EricaP: All I've done so far is masturbate, and it feels good, but no excitement. I'm totally happy with being single, so could it just be a "grass is greener" hangup of mine?

It isn't about sex with me. For most of my adult life since high school, all I've ever really wanted were hugs, cuddling, kisses, and loving words of support and encouragement.
I guess I'm just weird among heterosexuals.
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 23, 2012 at 12:38 PM · Report this
@auntie grizelda, I forget the backstory to your adventures in self-stimulation, but you asked @130 "are vibrators the best source of self stimulation for us women? Are dildos better?" And now you write: "all I've done so far is masturbate, and it feels good, but no excitement."

I'm confused. Does "excitement" mean "orgasm," or are you getting plenty of orgasms and still want more excitement?
Posted by EricaP on June 23, 2012 at 1:08 PM · Report this

Haven't you experimented enough to determine what you like?
Posted by Hunter78 on June 23, 2012 at 1:28 PM · Report this
nocutename 138
@auntie grizelda:

In your phrase, "All I've done so far is masturbate, and it feels good, but no excitement," what do you mean by feels good, but no excitement? How good does it feel? Just pleasant, or something more?

What are you doing when you say "all" you do is masturbate? Are you using fingers only? Dildos? Humping something--maybe the matress, maybe something else? Using a vibrator like a personal massage-type?

What's your history with orgasm, masturbation, and partnered sex?

I hope you don't mind answering these questions, but it seems like you're not giving quite enough information for us to help.
I remember you talking about fantasizing about certain people--Brad Pitt comes to mind. Do those fantasies get you sexually aroused or only romantically aroused? Does thinking about them get paired with masturbation, or as a precursor to masturbation, or do they get used independent of masturbation?

Dildos that don't vibrate and vibrators stimulate different parts of the anatomy. Dildos are for penetration, but they don't stimulate the clitoris any more than a penis would during intercourse (the base of the dildo, like the base of a penis, might bump against the clit, but all the internal stuff won't have much to do with your clit. EXCEPT if you stimulate the interior clitoral tissue by using the dildo to hit up against the front wall of your vagina. And, depending on the curvature of the dildo, you may be able to stimulate your G-spot.

Vibrators will stimulate the part of your clit that is external, so if this is the only kind of stimulation you need, many kinds may work for you.
I need both penetration and focused clitoral stimulation, so one of those "rabbit" style vobrator/dildos works best for me. But you should experiment with your fingers, and different kinds of vibes--some with dildos, some without, and see what you like best.
Posted by nocutename on June 23, 2012 at 2:22 PM · Report this

Do you want a man to wield that toy?

Posted by Hunter78 on June 23, 2012 at 3:36 PM · Report this
nocutename 140
@135(auntie grizelda): If you are happy without sex and only want hugs, kisses, cuddling, and loving, supportive language, don't feel you need to start trying to be someone you're not. But if you're dating, you should be honest about your interests and needs.
Posted by nocutename on June 23, 2012 at 3:40 PM · Report this
SPANK is completely correct in her suspicions. Her partner does not have a low libido - he just isn't into having sex with her. As a man, I can attest to the fact that it is not really possible for a guy to masturbate at all, and especially not "all the time", if the libido is not there. By definition, you have to have at least a little libido to even be able to get it up.
Posted by cockyballsup on June 23, 2012 at 4:49 PM · Report this
Hey Dan, my bf and I have been together for almost four years. We have a 19 month old son together and soon after I had him I decided that I didnt want to have sex again until marriage. We're both 21 and we dont want to get married anytime soon. My question is since we're young and obviously we still hav "tingles" should I wait or should we go ahead and do the bang bang boogie?...mind u its been almost a year of no banging...
Posted by notify21 on June 23, 2012 at 7:05 PM · Report this
@136 EricaP: Yes to your question: I meant that "excitement" (for me) means reaching major firework explosion level orgasm (think Meg Ryan's "YES!!"" YES!" YES!!!" in "When Harry Met Sally").

@137 & @139 Hunter78: Not really, and NO, thank you. Been there, done that, and am no longer interested in boy toys. I haven't been for eleven years, and honestly don't feel like I'm missing anything.

@138 & @140 nocutename: I use my fingers, and hump a special pillow, mostly. Stuffed animals are cuddly and don't violently threaten to hit or kill, even if they fall on you.
Yes, when sexually fantasizing, occasionally thinking about Brad Pitt (in Thelma & Louise) helps. I try not to think about my own previous and unhappy heterosexual partnerships because they weren't all that enjoyable, and usually somewhat painful despite my efforts to make each relationship work ( i.e.: communicate, experiment, ask what he liked, tell him what I liked---still didn't work). I realized after my divorce that I had made the mistake of going after men who really didn't love me. At all.

I'm comfortable with not dating, and being single. I live for music and like movies.
I guess there's still a lot I don't know about being GGG. I might be a bit too old-fashioned for today's dating games: I'm not comfortable with just fucking. Thanks for your comments, and bless you.
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 23, 2012 at 7:54 PM · Report this
nocutename 144
auntie grizelda: I'm glad you've had the guts to disassociate yourself from the jerks you've been involved with. And if what you're after are orgasms, there's really no need for another person to be involved. Cuddling, expressions of love, kissing can't be achieved solo, but it sounds like (for now, at least) you're okay with single status. From your hints at what your previous relationships were like, I'd say being single is not just fine, but GREAT!

So as far as masturbation goes, I still can't tell: references to Meg Ryan aside, are you able to orgasm through masturbation at all? Are you unhappy because what you feel fails to measure up to what you think is possible?
Not everyone orgasms like the Harry Met Sally scene. If you are reaching orgasm, but it just doesn't seem as great as you think is possible, that's one thing; if you're feeling excited, but not orgasming, that's something else.

For many of us, fantasies are images or narratives that we run in our minds to help us to orgasm. They frequently aren't of people we've been involved with or are currently involved with! I think you should find what gets your erotic imagination going. Often it is something we are ashamed of in our non-erotic lives, or would never do in real life, so if it doesn't conform to what you think you "should" be turned on by, no worries.

If you are almost orgasming during masturbation but not *quite* getting there, I would suggest two things: finding a more sexually explicit and exciting fantasy narrative to run, and experimenting with vibrators. Try the Hitachi Magic Wand for a start. It's never worked for me, because I need internal as well as external stimulation, but a lot of women find it very effective. It is also a good neck massager, and has variable speeds. It's a good place to start. If it doesn't do the trick, I'd try moving to one of those "rabbit" type things.

But without the mental component, none of these vibratory tools alone are likely to be much good. Try reading some erotica. Perhaps something in the "Best American Erotica," or "Best Women's Erotica" is a good place to start, as is a very explicit bodice-ripper. of you prefer eroticsim intertwined with romance. Or any of the anthologies published by Cleis Press or Pretty Things Press.

Good luck!
Posted by nocutename on June 23, 2012 at 8:22 PM · Report this
nocutename 145
@auntie grizelda: I forgot to say: Betty Dodson.
Read Betty Dodson.
Posted by nocutename on June 23, 2012 at 8:24 PM · Report this
mydriasis 146
@ griz

It isn't about sex with me. For most of my adult life since high school, all I've ever really wanted were hugs, cuddling, kisses, and loving words of support and encouragement.

I guess I'm just weird among heterosexuals.

You're obviously free to use whatever label you feel comfortable with but to me that sounds less like heterosexual and more like asexual? Or am I missing something.
Posted by mydriasis on June 23, 2012 at 11:02 PM · Report this
point5 cc is the average volume of ejaculate.
learned this 2 decades ago when trying for pregnancy with my then wife.
then it was a problem because of dilution - I think - I was rated "High volume"
Anyhow we made some babies and all worked out fairly well.

But definitely - .5cc is the average volume of ejaculate - no more no less - and that's what it's meant to mean.
Posted by not.zorg on June 24, 2012 at 1:32 AM · Report this
sissoucat 148
@93 auntie grizelda - wanna make a man squirm ? find a woman who's given birth and ask her to tell it all...

@74 mygash - thanks for the compliments :)

"I just think defining the male in a long term relationship as some kind of leech is a gross mischaracterization."

And you're right, I didn't quite mean that. We women have no real need for living with men ; should we want to live with one, we should be adult enough to be conscious that it's out of passionate love and shared interests, and not out of need.

Men who want to procreate have a real need to live with women ; should they want to live with one of us, they should be adult enough to admit that they do need us and that we don't, so there's an inherent power imbalance, that nobody can do a thing about. And they have to live with it, without trying to dumb us down, because if they respect us and there is enough shared interests and passionate love, we will live with them, even if we don't need to.

All that said, I stand by men in paternalistic societies as being leeches. Without the private help of their slaving unpaid women they would be nothing. And many men, in not-paternalistic societies, still behave like that and deserve to die lonely.
Posted by sissoucat on June 24, 2012 at 2:27 AM · Report this
sissoucat 149
Er - where did my answer to grizelda and to mygash go ?

OK, in short : thanks. I don't think that all men are leeches but in paternalistic societies they are. Not being actually needed by females is too hard for their competitive brains, and instead of being grateful that they live with women because women do love them but don't need them, they pressure women into artificially needing them by installing a collective bullying of women, that they can only survive if they marry a man. And that is very wrong.

A man who wants to have kids should treat equally and even treasure a woman who agrees to live with him, not be eager to bind and gag her and make a slave out of her, nor raises his daughters as slaves for other men.

And he should be prepared to adopt and raise any child born out of her as his own.
Posted by sissoucat on June 24, 2012 at 2:39 AM · Report this

Raise his daughters as slaves for other men.

Which society do you live in? Here (perhaps everywhere) women pass down more cultural content than men. And, though most parents would deny it, I believe kids learn more normative behavior from their peers than from adults.

And he should be prepared to adopt and raise any child born out of her as his own.

Where does this come from? Were you fucking around, got pregnant by another man, and now hubby is balking at paying the bill and playing patsy to another guy? That might be the old paternalistic law, but it doesn't make sense today with DNA testing and millions of couples eager to adopt children.
Posted by Hunter78 on June 24, 2012 at 3:29 AM · Report this
@144 & @145 nocutename: Thanks for the tips! I've jotted them down.
I may need all the good luck I can get regarding erotica.

@147 mydriasis: Simply put, I'm not sexually turned on by women, and haven't slept with any. I have had sex with men, and despite my abysmal track record with the opposite sex, I have categorized myself as being heterosexual.
However, you're right. A past discussion thread from a previous installment of Savage Love discussed being asexual. That does sound a lot more like me. I'm also a bit shy and usually don't socialize very well.
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 24, 2012 at 3:35 AM · Report this
@148 & @149 sissoucat: I couldn't agree more!!
I obviously have no experience in giving birth, but if that is what
would make some shamefully paternalistic, misogynist caveman
squirm, I'd gladly pay admission to see it and bring popcorn!
I'm all for making Rush Lardbutt, Shitt Romney, John Bonehead, and the Krook brothers among many squirm---and squeal like the slimy pigs they are!
I wonder if explicit details of giving birth would make the pope squirm, too?
Every one of those wrong-wing bozos is a hypocrite.
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 24, 2012 at 3:57 AM · Report this
Have you tried drugs?
Posted by Hunter78 on June 24, 2012 at 7:12 AM · Report this
mydriasis 154
@ Griz (151)

That makes sense to me. Good luck with finding your own pleasure, I hope the advice others give you is helpful :)

Also.... jeez sissoucat... that's messed up, man. I don't have such an adversarial few on gender/sex/relationships, and I gotta say I don't feel like I'm missing out.
Posted by mydriasis on June 24, 2012 at 7:21 AM · Report this
149- I'm answering the question about where your post to auntie G went. I'm not touching the other stuff.

In order to post, you have to log in. As soon as you do, your post shows up with a number in the upper right corner. Then if you go off to do something else on your computer, maybe google a term and come back, it will look as though your post disappeared. You have to log off (upper right of the whole screen) before coming back in order to see your comment. I've done it a handful of times. I write, think my (brilliant, thoughtful, witty) post is gone, and rewrite only to discover that they're both up there after I've gotten off the computer and rebooted.
Posted by Crinoline on June 24, 2012 at 8:11 AM · Report this
sissoucat 156
@150 Hunter troll

Fatherhood is always an adoption process anyway, since no child will ever come out of your belly, man. No matter who the genitor is, the man the woman trusts enough to help her raise the children is their father. That's his values that will get passed down to a future generation. So what if the child looks nothing like you ? It will love you and look up to you. That's what parenting is about, not about getting a job for one of your spermatozoids, and then never care for the poor human being born out of that spermatozoid.

"Playing patsy" I don't get. I suppose it means doing another guy's work for him ? That just shows how shallow you are. Passing on your chromosoms are nothing, compared to being the father figure in a child's life.
Posted by sissoucat on June 24, 2012 at 9:18 AM · Report this
sissoucat 157
@154 - Oh, I'd never be the one to deny I'm probably deeply messed up in several ways. But I just can't with women being typecast from birth as men's little helpers. Like I was ; like I'm trying to prevent my daughter from being.

Oh, yes. From birth I see girls around me being duped into thinking that pretty clothes and horses are all they should have an interest in, since they are girls. This is the 21st century and the female toys' aisles are still disgustingly pink, and full of everything to make housewives out of them. They sell ironing boards for little girls ! Have you ever paid attention ? They sell prostitute clothing for pre-teens ! With fake boobs on ! Can't a girl have fun running after a ball like a boy can, does she have to spend her entire childhood rehearsing being a domestic slave and a sexual object ?

So... my viewpoint is, society should stop trying to train us from birth to do what a few backward males would like us to do. We're free human beings, just like them.

We're the ones having the kids and raising them here, that won't change, and if a man wants to be part of it, he'd better remember that he's optional in the grand scheme of things, that any woman letting him around her and her kids, whether he is their genitor or not, is making him a huge favor, since he can't have any by himself (and that's plain biology, folks) - and then he'd better proceed to do his half of family chores without having to be begged for it.

That's the price for being in a family, backward men. Participate in the work in progress. You don't provide time and efforts to your family, you don't deserve a family.
Posted by sissoucat on June 24, 2012 at 9:56 AM · Report this
mydriasis 158
@ sissoucat

It might interest you to know that I was raised by a woman not too different from you. She wears the pants in her marriage and my father worships her in essentially the same way you think men should worship the women who choose to be with them. He also raised a child that wasn't his (from a previous relationship) as his own.

I was never encouraged to play with dolls and in fact I never even owned a barbie. I played with legos, and played video games, and drew but mostly I liked to read a lot. On the one hand having a mother like mine assured that I would learn assertiveness and not be a doormat.

But on the other hand I think you'd say I spent most of my childhood "rehersing to be a sexual object", I always loved skimpy clothes, makeup, etc, the fictional female characters I most closely identify with are usually sex workers. I have absolutely zero problem being "objectified" and deal with it a lot in my day to day life. I also have absolutely zero desire to be in the kind of relationship my mother has.

Just something to think about.
Posted by mydriasis on June 24, 2012 at 10:28 AM · Report this
1.) As a Canadian I would like to state that it's complete bullshit that trans surgeries are funded here and there is no dental, prescription drug or optician subsidies. Buy your own tits, or better yet make something that people really like and sell it to them to buy yourself some brand new titties.

2.) everyone's partners are assholes, without exception, all the way down the line.

3.) the laws of sissoucat are harsh, but It's the truth. recognize it bitch, sissoucat does not require human cohabitation so if you are lucky enough to find your ass getting some breakfast in her place, recognize that you aren't here on a motherfucking scholarship, you can be, cut and your egg frying ass will be given bus fare (lucky to get it you god damn dirty ape) and sent home. You will not be told this directly, merely ignored. You should know its time to leave without making sissoucat use unnecessary communication, especially toward males. Another thing, I fuck who what when and where I want. And I don't use rubbers, so if I get pregnant, it's on you asshole. Check your lease filthy human, you're living in sissoucats' world.
Posted by Xam on June 24, 2012 at 12:22 PM · Report this
sissoucat 160

Well you don't really know who I am, do you ? And I'm not asking for worship, never have, never will - I want equality and independance of mind. And I have it. I also have an awesome, considerate lover who doesn't live with me. And who doesn't worship me one bit.

Thanks to share that this rant of mine made you think of your mother. Good for you to live according to your own tastes and not to your mother's.

Me, I have been a doormat. Up until now. I've always treated my children and people in my life with the same respect that I expected from them, and some people don't understand respect, they think you're just being weak. So they are out of my life.

And if my daughter had been a girly girl, she would have had the nicest dresses I could have bought, but not the ironing board, I'm not training hired help - but she's not. And I will see to it that she's not made to feel inadequate because of it.
Posted by sissoucat on June 24, 2012 at 12:52 PM · Report this
sissoucat 161
@159 "Another thing, I fuck who what when and where I want."

Yep. Don't you ?

"And I don't use rubbers, so if I get pregnant, it's on you asshole."

Er, excuse me, I don't quite get it. You're thinking of getting alimony money right ? Er... you know, not all countries are the USA ? In my country alimony is for children who have been formally acknowledged by the father, in front of civil authorities, a voluntary step on the father's part - so no man can ever be tricked into paying alimony because of a casual fuck ?

But good try. Would you just call me a heartless bitch, you'd make my day ?
Posted by sissoucat on June 24, 2012 at 1:08 PM · Report this
mydriasis 162
@ sissoucat

I was using the expression "worship" as an exaggeration.

"instead of being grateful that they live with women because women do love them but don't need them,"

Your suggestion that men be 'grateful' to women who choose to live with them suggests to me, not a power balance, but a power imbalance.

That's where I was getting the impression from. You're right, I don't know you, but I was speaking more to the aspect of your personality (in terms of your thoughts on hetero relationships) which you have shared here.

I'm glad you've found a system that works for you - I'm also glad that you aren't assuming or demanding that your daughter follow in those same footsteps.
Posted by mydriasis on June 24, 2012 at 1:18 PM · Report this
mydriasis 163
@ Heartless Bitches

Some of these? YES

Do you find typical "Women's Magazines" to be either stomach turning or pathetically laughable?

Are you fed up with women who feel they HAVE to be in a "Relationship" in order to be whole, and will sacrifice their self-esteem and personal growth in order to avoid being on their own?

Are you fed up with your Male friends who are looking to date a woman with the appearance of a supermodel, and yet they continually whine about how "women don't like nice guys - they only want good-looking assholes"?

But other ones are definitely NOs

Does the sight of an incredibly handsome man turn you off, because too many of them have room-temperature IQ's, and obnoxious or non-existent personalities?

Do you want to SMACK women who play "helpless" just to gain male attention and stroke male egos?

So.... weird.
Posted by mydriasis on June 24, 2012 at 1:23 PM · Report this
sissoucat 164
@162 thanks for your understanding, mydriasis. I may harbor thoughts similar to your mother's, but I'm not the "imposing my worldview" type.

I'm a catlike mother - fiercely protective but not smothering ; I feel my duty is to make sure of their safety, while my kids explore the world at their pace and bloom into whomever they are - as long as they remember to respect others, I watch them grow and marvel at what's inside them.

"Grateful" might have been the wrong word ; I meant a man should thank his lucky star that he's loved, not thank the lady herself. Love is not something that can be thanked... but bearing someone's child should be, it wreaks havoc with our health and our work prospects, and it's not enough thanked in our society.

Heartless bitches has some strange sides, I'll grant you that. But it makes one think, which is an altogether good thing in my book.

Nighty-night ! Off to bed.
Posted by sissoucat on June 24, 2012 at 2:46 PM · Report this
@153: Have you?
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 24, 2012 at 4:47 PM · Report this
I'm okay with people who seem to feel that they're gender was somehow misaligned getting that fixed. Frankly, I think it's freakish, but whatever. I do have to take exception to the idea that it should be covered by health insurance. It falls in the same category as breast enhancements or other plastic surgeries. You're the way you were born... "fix that" at your own cost.
Posted by chicagotim on June 24, 2012 at 4:51 PM · Report this
mydriasis 167

The medical profession would tend to disagree with you, but what do they know. I mean, after all, you posted something on the internet! All they did was empirically study the matter.
Posted by mydriasis on June 24, 2012 at 4:54 PM · Report this
@163 mydriasis: WOW---I am SO in agreement, too, with you on your list of YESes regarding Heartless Bitches' views on male/female stereotypes!
It feels so fucking GOOD to read posts from people who sincerely share my thoughts!
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 24, 2012 at 5:04 PM · Report this
Yes, besides alcohol, weed is my drug of choice. But I don't have a problem climaxing.

Posted by Hunter78 on June 24, 2012 at 5:22 PM · Report this

I'm glad my world is not so full of hate.

Posted by Hunter78 on June 24, 2012 at 7:09 PM · Report this
Dear boys and girls (at least the ones in Seattle),

When you check someone out, please keep it to yourself. When you hollar out the car window at a young woman, it just makes her feel like she is in danger. Don't do it, it is scary.

Attractive Women of Seattle
Posted by wxPDX on June 24, 2012 at 7:24 PM · Report this
I thank Ms Sissou for exempliflying the leadership of my hypothethetical matriarchy from some little time ago and agree with the majority of her individual points.

As far as parenting is concerned, the Sissou system makes me think of Dr Schwyzer's kerfuffle when he revealed that he might have impregnated an old fling who'd decided to marry and raise the baby with the other potential sperm donor, who was never informed that there was doubt on that point. I could go quite happily in either of two completely different directions, neither of which has much chance of being implemented - either universal scientific determination of paternity in every case, or treating the matter matrilineally by proclaiming that the mother is a baby's only parent unless/until she grants adoption at replacement, co-equal or secondary parent level of status.

Although I entirely agree with the rant about what is on offer to girls in post 157, I shall quibble about a few points about fathering from 157 and 156:

[That's his values that will get passed down to a future generation.] *Rumpole and the Younger Generation* says all I could wish on that one when Nick reveals his plan to read PPE at Oxford.

[So what if the child looks nothing like you ? It will love you and look up to you.] I'm reasonably indifferent to biology, but question the universality of the assumption. I didn't, at least not as far back as I can remember, although of course I'm so weird that that might be an argument in favour.

[That's the price for being in a family, backward men. Participate in the work in progress. You don't provide time and efforts to your family, you don't deserve a family.] I don't really disagree, but the emphasis seems a bit sideways. Wouldn't one specify the backward men as those who ought not to be getting within a mile of their sired children or anybody else's? I've seen various threads lately about how corporate executive (scum) are able to be corporate executive (scum) because they don't have to participate in the raising of their children, but corporate executive (scum) shouldering half the child-raising duties is NOT an overall improvement, let alone the answer. Some of the mothers would be a bit better off on one level, but it could ruin the poor children. I could see an emphasis on not siring children one didn't want to co-parent actively, but I've known many women quite content to have married a 75% paycheck rather than a 75% co-parent, if I may so phrase the situation.

Thank you also for post 160, which corrected a number of impressions about your situation. Would your (semi)significant other be willing to post here? It would be most interesting to have his point of view; I'm sure he'd be right up there with the recent Mr Canuck, and the current Mrs Ank, Mrs J and even Mr Erica.

And it seems appropriate to conclude by awarding a point for placing a value on things making one think.
Posted by vennominon on June 24, 2012 at 7:45 PM · Report this
Jeez, this discussion is making me so glad I'm gay.
Posted by cockyballsup on June 24, 2012 at 8:36 PM · Report this
@169: I don't have a problem climaxing, either--especially when composing symphonies. Otherwise, chocolate is my drug of choice, and best of all it'll still be with me after 20 years.
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 24, 2012 at 10:11 PM · Report this
@169, 170 Hunter78 Gee, for a while there I almost forgot the lone truth in this sea of lies: The Internet is for dicks, just a giant set of tubes holding countless bags of dicks.

Then you commented a few times to awaken me from the illusion of decency! Thanks for reminding me! I was lost, brethren, but I tell you now, the lord he did protect me, praise ye almighty dickhead, from the horrors of decent folk!
Posted by SeattleSnark on June 24, 2012 at 11:20 PM · Report this

The lone truth in this sea of lies: The Internet is for dicks.

You're circumscribed by your narrow ideology.

Posted by Hunter78 on June 25, 2012 at 1:43 AM · Report this
sissoucat 177
@172 Thanks for taking the time to comment...

I doubt my lover would ever comment here. He's into gardening, making furniture, singing immoral songs and good sex - not blog commenting.

Oh, and he's also very cat-like : he likes his freedom and keeps no regular schedule. So he calls whenever he'd like to come, to check it with me first. I also call beforehand, whenever I want to go to his place. It makes for a very loving and respectful relationship - we only meet when both of us do fancy it.

"Rumpole and the younger generation" is a humorous book, right - reality doesn't work like that. Having half of the genes of a human monster doesn't predict you'll become a monster. Even being raised by a human monster who is also your genetic parent, doesn't predict you'll be a monster. Ask incest survivors.

As for the next point, did you mean you didn't look up to nor love a parent who looked nothing like you ? That usually happens only with undeserving parents - for a young child not to love a parent, despite what survival dictates, the parent must be a living nightmare. Besides, I look just like my genetic father and I still hate him.

"I've known many women quite content to have married a 75% paycheck rather than a 75% co-parent" - I'm not money orientated. I find I earn enough by myself. Had these women earned enough for their tastes by themselves, do you think they still wouldn't have chosen a better co-parent for their offspring ?

Women, like men, come in all flavors ; not all of them are what's better/best for their children. I don't think it's healthy to take the responsability of birthing a child when there's no established relationship with a good enough co-parent (male, female, who cares) - I wouldn't knowingly do it. Not to say that children raised in one-parent households are a bad thing, life happens as it does, despite one's best plans against it.

I'm open to evidence to change my mind on the last points.
Posted by sissoucat on June 25, 2012 at 6:33 AM · Report this
Ms Sissou - Thank you for clarifying; I nearly asked if you ever went to his place, but the question didn't seem to fit.

*Rumpole and the Younger Generation* makes a strong case against generational carryover.

My parents between them covered all of the three Big As (Adultery on his side, Abuse/Addiction on hers), besides being the Classic Case Against Waiting For Marriage. I alternate between admiring their stamina and criticizing their inertia for taking 28 years to divorce; if they had either lived together or had a sexual relationship for six months beforehand, they'd never have married at all. I get on with them about as well as one might expect to get on with people who put one into conversion therapy against one's will, but can't remember the sort of "Daddy" reaction you seemed to assume to be automatic. I just make a habitual quibble about that point, usually when Mr Savage assumes a bit more than is strictly accurate about family feeling.

I'm not money-oriented, either. I suspect there's a bit of self-selection in the career man/main parent dynamic. Some women don't want an active co-parent; some women don't want the trouble or responsibility of being a co-earner. I don't think both sentences quite flip for men, as women who want to be the primary parent don't so much just want to be better parents the way some men want to be better earners than their wives, but would find that co-parenting would actively interfere with them - sort of a tennis-vs-golf scenario.

I've just seen threads lately in which some women seem to be wanting men to be forced or pressured to co-parent, and it's hard to tell how much is (reasonably) in the interest of fairness, how much is punitive, and how much is magical thinking that co-parenting will transform corporate executive (scum) into Happy Feminist Superdaddy. Thinking of the majority of executives of my acquaintance, the last thing that would do society any good would be their having more to do with parenting.

While I'd agree with putting the emphasis on not having children for one reason or another, I don't feel it's fair of me to have too strong an opinion in the parenting stakes, but would as a general principle like to see people still have a model available that suits the character of the individual.
Posted by vennominon on June 25, 2012 at 10:34 AM · Report this
@12: On the subject of "waiting lists," it's worth noting that even if you have the money, very few reputable surgeons in the US will do any form of gender reassignment surgery without a sign-off from a therapist that you've done the "real life test." Generally you need *two* sign-offs, one from a therapist who's been seeing you for an extended period of time, and one from a psychiatrist who's verified that you're competent to make your own decisions. It would be pretty difficult for someone to transition to the point of surgery in less than two years, here, although I'm sure it's been done.

The "real life test" part is controversial for a variety of reasons, and presents a bit of a quandary for androgynes and other people with non-binary gender identities, but it's part of the currently accepted guidelines.
Posted by Orv on June 25, 2012 at 11:32 AM · Report this
@griz: Just get a vibrator. Chances are it will work for you and you can buy one at walgreens for like $10 these days.
Posted by chi_type on June 25, 2012 at 11:38 AM · Report this
@180: I'm not trying to be a downer, but isn't there a risk of blood clotting (which can lead to a stroke) with use of vibrators? I think I read that somewhere in Savage Love.
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 25, 2012 at 2:10 PM · Report this
Check out Point5cc T-Shirt Company's Fan Page on Facebook!!/P…

Aydian & his wife Jenilee will be at St. Petersberg PRIDE on 6/30 representing and selling Point5cc T-shirts! Shoot us an email if you have any requests and like us on facebook to keep updated about our latest T-shirt designs and sales! Thank you all for your support!
Posted by Aethan Dowding on June 25, 2012 at 3:13 PM · Report this
If you use an electric massager to massage painful thighs or calves or something, it may dislodge a blood clot that's already there. That has NOTHING to do with CAUSING blood clots.

"According to Mary Martone, who works at Seattle's sex-positive, woman-owned sex-toy emporium, Toys in Babeland (707 E. Pike, 800-658-9119,, the warning is there to keep you from accidentally killing yourself. "You can get blood clots in your legs. If your calf is sore, you might go, 'Hey, my leg hurts,' vibe it, and accidentally loosen up a blood clot. Then the clot zips up to your head, and that moment of calf-soothing pleasure is followed by a stroke and then death."

Martone thinks there must have been a dislodged blood clot lawsuit at some point in vibrator history. "Someone died massaging mysterious thigh pain and the family sued, got a huge chunk of change, and now every vibrator has to have that "do not use on unexplained thigh and calf pain" sticker on it. Tragic, but that's product liability for you." "
Posted by Eirene on June 25, 2012 at 3:22 PM · Report this
My general $.02 on the various kerfluffles here in this column's comments:
generally, if anyone is saying to anyone else that this (whatever "this" may be) is the one and only true and proper way to live one's life, then they're usually wrong.
Posted by Melissa Trible on June 25, 2012 at 5:22 PM · Report this
For many people, living with another is a great reward.

Posted by Hunter78 on June 25, 2012 at 5:22 PM · Report this
@181: Lol. I hadn't heard that one but leaving your house in the morning could also lead to getting run over by a truck so you might as well have some fun in the meantime.
Posted by chi_type on June 25, 2012 at 6:17 PM · Report this
@183: Ah----THANKS, Eirene. That's what I read, and where I read it.
My bust.
@184 Melissa Trible: I never told you to live my life. Your life is your business, just as mine is mine. What brings me to euphoria might drag you through the shithole of hell. To each his or her own. Peace.
@185 Hunter78: Congratulations for finding another. No sarcasm intended.
Yes, it can be very rewarding.
@186 chi_type: My goof. See Eirene's post @183 for the clarification.
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 26, 2012 at 1:18 AM · Report this
@178 "Some women don't want an active co-parent; some women don't want the trouble or responsibility of being a co-earner."

In my family, I earn less and spend more time actively parenting, but it's not because I don't want an active co-parent or the responsibility of a better job. It was a joint marital decision to specialize, made when we decided to have children. I see our gay friends facing the same dilemma: it's a lot easier to have a solid-earner paired with a flexible-worker-at-home, than to find two jobs with flexible schedules and high enough earning potential to save for college tuition.
Posted by EricaP on June 26, 2012 at 7:55 AM · Report this
189 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
Let's say you've got that unexplained soreness on your thigh, and you DON'T take a vibrator to it. What happens to the blood clot then? Does it go away on its own? Wouldn't it remain dangerous anyway?
Posted by Crinoline on June 26, 2012 at 10:39 AM · Report this
As far as I know most blood clots are a part of normal healing, aren't in dangerous places, and are just gradually reabsorbed. (It's also far more likely that a pain in your thigh is just muscle soreness, which is naturally way more common.) For more than you probably want to know about causes, symptoms, treatment, etc., try… (which of course talks mostly about the dangerous sorts).
Posted by Eirene on June 26, 2012 at 10:47 AM · Report this
Dan Savage you are a BIGOT Quit Sucking Romneys Dick
Posted by Randy11 on June 26, 2012 at 12:00 PM · Report this
@188 EricaP: It sounds like you've found an excellent way to balance work and parenting. That's certainly not easy. Way to go!

@190 Crinoline: Good point. I was wondering about that, too.

@191 Eirene: Thank you for sharing this helpful link!
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 26, 2012 at 12:02 PM · Report this
@188: I want to add a clarification: I meant "work" being a job outside the home.
Parenting, while rewarding, is of course the most demanding job on Earth, because it's 24/7, 365 days a year.
And bless you, too, for right on sound advice!
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 26, 2012 at 12:06 PM · Report this
Gee I wonder if the response to SPANK would have been different were it a man who was not being satisfied by his woman: Try this- "Someone who wounds his sex partner through active neglect, and then makes her partner feel like HE is the bad guy is guilty of thoughtless cruelty. SHE is guilty of intentional, malicious cruelty. Can't you see what your GIRLFRIEND has already done to you? SHE has trained you to "ignore [your own] sexual urges....." Yah that would go over like a Led Zeppelin.

For CWF- Dan knows how to use keyboard but obviously NOT how to use his tongue- at least on a woman. The OBVIOUS answer is to work on your man's oral skills until you cream on his face then you can introduce the vibe without problems or damaging his pathetic, worthless, shallow ego. She does not need more rough riding, she need a cunning linguist before the entrada and she needs to talk to some sense into this little boy or DTMFA. It is probably something stupid like the guy thinks he has a small dick or something and has been watching to much Sasha Gray.

On a related point, believe it or not WOMEN can ALSO learn how to have sex and get off with practice. Dan always talks about the death grip for men (during masturbation) killing the ability to get off during REAL sex- so how about the vibrating tip for women killing the ability to get off on REAL sex. Sauce for the goose...
Posted by Professor on June 26, 2012 at 2:54 PM · Report this
mydriasis 196


If a male friend told me that his girlfriend wouldn't fuck him (and I've heard this before, for sure) I'd say "that sucks, you need to figure that out". If a male friend told me his girlfriend wouldn't fuck him and was going on and on about how she was masturbating all the time without him there? I'd say "DTMFA."

I also think it can probably be dangerous for women to use vibe only when getting off (if they have a desire to get off from unadorned sex later).

I think I must be running some sort of hallucinogenic fever to be semi-agreeing with the "professor". Lawd have mercy.
Posted by mydriasis on June 26, 2012 at 3:19 PM · Report this
Yeah, I have to largely agree with Prof AND Myd.

But there are a lot of women who feel their cunts are too bad to be eaten.

Posted by Hunter78 on June 26, 2012 at 3:38 PM · Report this
Griz: it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, there just seems to be a lot of "my way is the only *right* way" vibe going on in this batch of comments...
Posted by Melissa Trible on June 26, 2012 at 6:14 PM · Report this
@198 Melissa: No worries. But I agree: people who get shove their lives in others' faces are a real drag.
My living a whole county away from both my older sisters seems to help!
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 26, 2012 at 6:24 PM · Report this
Arrrrrrgh! Erase the word "get" in @199.
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 26, 2012 at 6:26 PM · Report this
@190 Crinoline. If you had an unexplained soreness in your thigh and didn't take a vibe to it, yes, it would still be potentially dangerous, because if the clot dislodged another way, the same issue could happen.
If you have a soreness that is unexplained and not going away you HAVE to see a doctor. My younger brother had a pain in his leg, and by the time he got it checked he had a blood clot that pretty much went the whole length of his leg. Which meant no movement besides absolutely necessary (from his hospital bed to the bathroom) and IV blood thinners.
Turns out, the issue runs in our family, so it's good to know family history when possible too.
Posted by KateRose on June 26, 2012 at 8:01 PM · Report this
@197 Hunter78: Once again, with heartfelt feeling:
Please go back to your prehistoric cave and stay there.
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 27, 2012 at 12:13 AM · Report this
@201: Taking oral estrogen supplements, taking birth control pills, and smoking are also risk factors worth noting.
Posted by Orv on June 27, 2012 at 5:30 PM · Report this
@203. Absolutely. Good point.
Posted by KateRose on June 29, 2012 at 5:34 PM · Report this
I was with a guy for five years that pulled the "let's not have sex but let me remind you about my masturbation habits" game on me all the damn time.
I have to say - even being away from that relationship for as long as I have, and having been assured by a few lovely gentlemen that I am a great lover - - - reading Dan's advice just made me feel so much better. Even now, I am still scarred and hurt by the constant rejection.
That shit eats away at you for YEARS... do what I did, DTMF and get a guy who will do anything possible to sleep with you. I have several now.
Posted by OneADay on July 21, 2012 at 2:52 AM · Report this
I'm sorry, but I just can't take someone named "Aydian" seriously, especially when they're trying to claim to be male. They sound much more like a stereotypical attention whoring chick.
Posted by whydoineedadisplayname on July 24, 2012 at 11:31 PM · Report this

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