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July 25, 2012

I am a hetero female, but one of my biggest fantasies is for a guy to dress up in women's underwear. Not full-blown drag, just a teddy, fishnets, and some heels. He doesn't even have to act like a woman. I just want him to parade around a bit, and just for me. I've had the ovaries to bring this up only twice to men I've been with. My first boyfriend was game, but I was so insecure with my sexuality at the time that I let it go. My second boyfriend found it degrading and wouldn't do it. I think there are two things holding me back: (1) I've never even heard of this fantasy, and that makes me feel like a creep. Is there a name for it? (2) I know the first time I will giggle with joy and I'm afraid that will be a big buzzkill if my hypothetical future boyfriend thinks I'm laughing at him.

Lingerie Without A Man

1. There isn't a name for this fantasy, LWAM, so let's come up with one. How about "Frank-N-Furter-Ing," for Dr. Frank-N-Furter, a noted research scientist who also enjoyed dressing straight boys up in fishnets, teddies, and heels.

Your fantasy probably lacks a name because it isn't that odd or a whole lot to ask. And this fantasy makes you more sexually and romantically marketable than you seem to realize, LWAM. The world is full of men who aren't gay, aren't into drag, and aren't into full-blown crossdressing but who are turned on by the idea of wearing the girlfriend's panties and/or a little lingerie. A lot of these men are with women who barely tolerate their kinks. The single ones, on the other hand, are out there looking for a girlfriend who is turned on by the thought of a guy in panties, teddies, fishnets, and heels. Post a few explicit personal ads on online dating sites—kinkster and normster—and I promise you'll be flooded with responses from guys who want to put on a show for you.

2. It is permissible to giggle during sex. If you're worried that your partner might think you're laughing at him, qualify your giggles in advance. Explain that you're prone to joyous laughter when you're turned on and you might get a little giddy during his performance. Emphasize that your giggles are evidence of arousal, not disgust or contempt. Then prove it by fucking the shit out of him.

3. Have you checked out www.xdress.com? Think of it as your own personal porn stash before you find a boyfriend, and your favorite online shopping destination after.


I am a heterosexual female. My husband hates condoms. When we started being exclusive and monogamous, we were both fully screened for STDs and I went on the pill. That was four years ago. Since then, I have been through eight different versions of the pill. My current one gives me a two-week period, I have gained about 25 pounds in two months, and I am more moody. My doctor just prescribed me a new pill that will likely increase my weight and make me even moodier, but it should decrease the length of the period. I am sick of this! I think my husband should suck it up and wear a condom.

He is completely resistant. It is ironic that the pill protects me from pregnancy if I have sex, but we're having less sex due to the weight gain, bloating, bleeding, no sex drive, and other side effects. My doctor does not think other options for birth control (e.g., an intrauterine device) will be a good fit for me. Should I continue on the pill or tell my husband that if he wants sex, he has to share responsibility in avoiding pregnancy?

Tired Of Pills

Shared responsibility.

And you can keep having sex without pills, condoms, or pregnancies. There's oral (his-and-hers), anal (ditto), and mutual masturbation (underrated). But if it's vaginal intercourse he wants, then he'll have to get used to condoms. Some women can't take hormonal birth control, and your husband is married to one.


I was watching a porno featuring a hot gay threesome. Two tops double-penetrated a bottom. The odd part: The tops shared a single condom! I'm wondering how safe this might be. It certainly doesn't seem safe.

Dubious In Phoenix

It was safe for the bottom—provided that overtaxed condom didn't burst (here's hoping they were using a more spacious, more durable female condom)—but it wasn't safe for the tops. Jamming two dicks into a single condom could result in dick-to-dick transmission of a number of sexually transmitted infections—herpes, HPV, chlamydia, syphilis, gonorrhea, etc.


I am a 25-year-old straight woman. I recently started seeing a man. The first time I slept with him, he told me that he was interested in a relationship, and I told him that I wanted to keep things purely casual. Over the next month and a half of talking to him, hanging out, and having sex, I started to really like him. I was thinking about changing my mind and taking the relationship to the next level.

The last time I saw him was a week ago. He came over, we had sex, and then he mentioned he had met someone else. As he was beginning to elaborate, I told him to leave.

My anger comes from his timing. If he had told me this before we had sex, Dan, I would have been able to have a constructive conversation about this. The problem now, if I'm being completely honest with myself, is that I really like him and I don't want to stop seeing him.

A couple of questions: Do I reach out to him again? Did I overreact?

Left In The Lurch

I can understand why you were upset. You had already taken things to the "next level" in your heart—you were thinking of this guy as your boyfriend—you just hadn't gotten around to informing him about the upgrade. And you assumed that, when you did get around to letting him know, he would be delighted. Because he was the one who wanted a relationship at the beginning, right?

Unfortunately, he took you at your word when you said you weren't interested in a relationship. Keeping things "purely casual" meant he was free to pursue a relationship with someone else.

I can't help but wonder what he was about to say when you told him to get out. He met someone else, which wasn't a violation of your rules. Did that mean things were over between you two (which would make the timing of the last fuck an insult)? Or was he willing to pass on this other girl if you were ready for a relationship (which would make tossing him out before he could elaborate a mistake)? You probably should've heard him out.

Go ahead and reach out. Let him know that you were thinking about taking things to the next level—ughers to that phrase—before he told you about the other girl. You were starting to fall for him, you hoped he felt the same, and you were disappointed. But since he was only doing what you asked—keeping it casual—you can't fault him for keeping his options open, looking around, dating other girls, etc. And you can't fault him for failing to read your mind.

Close by telling him that you'd be open to dating—a real, noncasual relationship—if things don't work out with this other girl.


Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.

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Comments (367) RSS

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1
First post? DRESS ME UP DARLING, PLEASE!!!!
Posted by HOOKWORDS on July 24, 2012 at 7:52 PM · Report this
Juniper Tree 2
She could use a diaphragm and spermicide.
Posted by Juniper Tree http://walkingthehedge.net/wildgeekhang/ on July 24, 2012 at 7:53 PM · Report this
3
I enjoyed the two dicks, one ass letter. It reminded me of classic Savage Love, before it became a relationship advice column with some sex mixed in.
Posted by CW in LA on July 24, 2012 at 7:55 PM · Report this
4
The woman who's tired of being on birth control pills should get a new doctor. Has her doctor not told her about all the other types of birth control available, other than pills or condoms? There's the sponge, the diaphragm (which is annoying, but works), and female condoms. I'm curious why her doctor doesn't think an IUD would work for her... maybe he/she still subscribes to the outdated belief that nulliparous women shouldn't have IUDs? Of course, the copper T might make her periods long too, and it's quite expensive. But I'm still surprised that her doctor hasn't mentioned a diaphragm. That might be the best option for her.
Posted by Atharaenea on July 24, 2012 at 8:07 PM · Report this
5
LITL, Dan was kinder to you than you deserve.

Your guy opened up to you right at the outset and you basically squashed him. I bet that felt really warm and fuzzy to him when you shot him down that first time. What exactly does "keeping it casual" mean to you? For most people it means "free to see other people." I'm sure he thought that's what it meant to you: that you didn't want to settle down with him because you wanted to see someone else at the same time. Not something that someone who is interested in a relationship wants to hear from the other person, but hey, you started it. Now here he is playing by your rules, and the first time he mentions another girl you freak and throw him out on his ear without even hearing him out. Makes you look like a serious hypocrite.

You've treated him harshly twice now. If you really truly want him back now, and want him to trust you despite how you treated him, it's time to grovel a little. Go ahead and tell him all the things Dan said. But he left out an important one: "I'm really sorry I was such a bitch."

Posted by avast2006 on July 24, 2012 at 8:23 PM · Report this
6
There's scientific evidence that semen has mood-boosting benefits, so condoms aren't necessarily the best choice if you're in a committed relationship. I would be asking for a second opinion on the IUD. The copper IUD is suitable for many women who can't take hormonal birth control, and it is no longer necessary to have had a pregnancy to use one. The copper IUD is expensive when it's inserted, but it lasts up to 10 years.

That said, why is the husband being intractable on the condom issue if she's having such difficulty finding suitable birth control? Doesn't sound like he's too fussed about her comfort.
Posted by tothelimit on July 24, 2012 at 8:23 PM · Report this
7
LWAM, tell your future guy that you fantasize about getting anal from a guy dressed as you say. Then, provide him the appropriate articles of clothing the next time you get together. I'm sure he'll go for it.
Posted by Approaching 40 in LA on July 24, 2012 at 8:29 PM · Report this
8
I will allow, however, that telling the person that you just finished fucking about this other person in your life is seriously tone-deaf timing on his part.
Posted by avast2006 on July 24, 2012 at 8:31 PM · Report this
9
Leaving the issue of giggling aside, I wonder if the first LW's BF who refused her request was bisexual. I ask because all the reasons that come to mind for a straight man to find the request degrading are rather misogynistic. With a gay man (and perhaps a bi man as well), I'm not sure that degrading would be the first adjective I'd expect to hear, but there is so much potential baggage and even possible triggering that I don't think most such refusals would revoke one's GGG card.

Of course, I may well be missing something.
Posted by vennominon on July 24, 2012 at 8:40 PM · Report this
10
I agree with 5. Dan was being unusually generous. Really, what did you think would happen? "I want to keep it casual" means "I don't want to be a serious couple and I want to screw around a bit". Then surprise surprise, he keeps it casual and then you slam the door in his face once you hear about another girl? Not even waiting to hear about what he wants to do from here?

He rightly believes that you're a crazy bitch. If you're going to change the rules at random times and lose your shit over things he doesn't even know, then he's completely right.
Posted by gromm on July 24, 2012 at 8:42 PM · Report this
11
@6: And here, I thought that's what anal was *for*.
Posted by gromm on July 24, 2012 at 8:43 PM · Report this
mtnlion 12
To those who suggest other types of birth control (diaphragm, lady condoms, sponge--all birth control that continues to rest largely on her shoulders): I think you're missing part of the point. Her husband has shirked the responsibility of contraception completely onto her. He has made it clear that he hates condoms, although his dislike of condoms sounds far less severe than her side effects from the pill. She's not looking for more ways to accommodate his jerkiness, but for someone to validate her feelings that her hubby's being a dick about their birth control.

And that's what Dan did, and what I'll do: TOP, your husband needs to suck it up and fuck you with a condom, get used to oral/manual, or prepare for fatherhood. When he stops being rude about this, maybe you should explore other contraceptives, but don't tolerate a diaphragm, sponge, or female condom if you hate it if you know he wouldn't do the same for you.
Posted by mtnlion http://radicalish.wordpress.com on July 24, 2012 at 8:43 PM · Report this
mtnlion 13
I think Dan's answer to LITL was fine and realistic. She didn't say "what the fuck; why is he with another girl?!" She seems to understand that she said the wrong thing and her feelings changed. She wanted to know how to proceed. Wanted to know if a relationship with this guy is salvageable.

I believe her situation is an immature one to find herself in, but that's no reason to tear her down.
Posted by mtnlion http://radicalish.wordpress.com on July 24, 2012 at 8:51 PM · Report this
14
I love my diaphragm (it's also useful for keeping things tidier during light period days). And I actually got it for free from Planned Parenthood because I don't have insurance. Ordered it from my local Rite Aid. I mention this because people talk about how they think it's hard to get one. It was definitely not.

Also, there are finger inserted spermicidal inserts (we called them "bullets") that create a barrier and dissolve conveniently after a couple hours. They are highly effective and can be incorporated into play.
Posted by Dabble on July 24, 2012 at 8:52 PM · Report this
15
Sounds like TOP needs to dump the husband AND the doctor.

And how does someone so naive as to have never heard of crossdressing even know enough to write Dan Savage?
Posted by chi_type on July 24, 2012 at 8:58 PM · Report this
16
Wow, LWAM- where are you???????
I've always wanted to find a woman who wants me to dress up in lingerie for her, and I'm far from being the only one. it seems like there is a huge gender imbalance in this regard and Dan was right to point that you're likely to get quite a few hits if you post on the right site.

I also want to encourage women who may be a little hesitant to go along with it if the subject is brought up by their male partners. Trust me- he will do anything you want him to in return!!!
Posted by fif on July 24, 2012 at 9:15 PM · Report this
mydriasis 17
@6

Honey, sex has mood-boosting effects. Which is to say "please show me a study that shows that semen itself has an effect on mood and also properly controls for the factors that influence condom use and also mood such as the commitedness of a relationship"
Posted by mydriasis on July 24, 2012 at 9:17 PM · Report this
18
And I really hope LWAM wasn't yet another fake letter as #15 may have hinted.
Posted by fif on July 24, 2012 at 9:18 PM · Report this
mydriasis 19
@12

This.
Posted by mydriasis on July 24, 2012 at 9:19 PM · Report this
20
I agree with Dan's advice to Left in the Lurch, but there's a another lesson for us. If you have a relationship status update, share the update before sex.

P.S. I love my Mirena IUD. It's an IUD that releases a hormone called progestin. I have shorter, lighter periods. It doesn't cause the weight gain and it helps protect against some cancer. I have great doctors.
Posted by Bitpoh on July 24, 2012 at 9:20 PM · Report this
21
Diaphragms have a pretty high failure rate (they're a bit better in nulliparous women but still not great) and are a pain to use. IUDs are great IF you're one of the people for whom they work well (you don't expel them, they don't mess up your periods, etc.). They're extremely popular among women OBs, which should tell you something. Among those who have used any particular birth control method for at least one year, IUDs are by far the most popular. (Full disclosure: I have a copper-T and am extremely happy with it.) Only 10-15% discontinue use before a year. I do, however, agree with mtlion@12 that it's time for her husband to try taking on part of the burden as well.
Posted by Eirene on July 24, 2012 at 9:32 PM · Report this
mtnlion 22
@20, Mirena is the shit (for me). I basically never have my period, never get pregnant, and have had no adverse effects. Her doc might think that that type of IUD wouldn't be enjoyable because most birth control pills contain progestogen (progestin) in the first place, but they also usually have estrogen. However, she could be on an oral contraceptive that only has progestin, which would make getting the IUD no better. It's possible her body just doesn't tolerate extra or synthetic hormones very well.

I don't really get why everyone is attacking the doc. His/her medical opinion is that the IUD might not be a great match for her, probably based on her reaction to the pill. I'm not saying every doctor is good, but that every doctor knows more about this shit than I/we do, and knows this patient's history better than we do. Jumping to conclusions.
Posted by mtnlion http://radicalish.wordpress.com on July 24, 2012 at 9:57 PM · Report this
23
Your guy opened up to you right at the outset and you basically squashed him. I bet that felt really warm and fuzzy to him when you shot him down that first time.

So a woman is never allowed to feel differently about a guy than he feels about her? She should've put on a big fake smile and said "Okay, let's have a relationship!" through gritted teeth, but because she asserted her own opinion she's a bitch?

Yeah, it sucks to hear "I don't want to date you" right after sex. The awkwardness could have been partially defused if the two of them had had the "where is this going" discussion before sleeping together, but I guess neither of the two people involved in the sex chose to have that talk upfront.

Do you see where I'm going with this? The letter-writer could possibly have saved the guy's feelings by going "So, this is just a casual thing, right?" before the sex happened...but he could have clarified the situation at that point, too, and didn't. So let's not act like this chick is a bitch who horribly shot down some poor innocent guy.

The fact that she suddenly (from his perspective) freaked out on him at the end there certainly was unfair...but that would have been solved by her continuing to communicate her thoughts as clearly as she had at the outset. Telling the guy what she wanted from him is the solution to this problem, not the cause.

A devil's advocate type could easily blame the whole debacle on this guy's apparent tendency to drop emotional bombshells on a chick right after fucking her. (Personally I don't "blame" either of them exclusively for this mess; seems as if they both need to work on their timing and communication skills.)
Posted by perversecowgirl on July 24, 2012 at 9:59 PM · Report this
24
Yes #12! And also the copper IUD was awesome. This vasectomy thing we've got now is even better.
Also. I'm having a hard time picturing the logistics of two guys in one condom, in one ass. And yes to #3. Admittedly enjoying the hell out of trying to imagine two cocks, one condom and one asshole.
Posted by bodhirungus on July 24, 2012 at 10:01 PM · Report this
25
I wonder why Dan didn't mention this: http://techcitement.com/culture/the-best… There are tons of options out there for men who want sex without condoms, and this sounds like the best one.
Posted by random_reader5 on July 24, 2012 at 10:08 PM · Report this
26
TOP: Tell your man to get a vasectomy if he hates condoms so much. It's [usually] reversible anyway!
Posted by superduperficial on July 24, 2012 at 10:14 PM · Report this
27
@25 That's not available in North America yet. There are pretty much only two birth control options available for men currently: condoms and vasectomies--unless you count abstinence.
Posted by superduperficial on July 24, 2012 at 10:20 PM · Report this
28
I tried posting this as an unregistered user, but it looks weird: anyway, I read a while ago about this reversible vasectomy thing that seems to be a great birth control option for men. If there's anyone who could push for this to become popular, it's Dan.
http://techcitement.com/culture/the-best…
Posted by random_reader5 on July 24, 2012 at 10:40 PM · Report this
29
@23: "So a woman is never allowed to feel differently about a guy than he feels about her?"

Where exactly did I say that? Be specific.

"but because she asserted her own opinion she's a bitch?"

Noooooooo...let's review.

She's a bitch because:
a) She cut him off, wouldn't LET him explain, and threw him out. Can you fathom why that kind of behavior is rude, or do we need a roleplaying demonstration?
b) She was furious at him for doing pretty much exactly what she did to him the first time. She may not have specifically said the phrase "another guy" but it is strongly implicit in "let's keep it casual."

"Telling the guy what she wanted from him is the solution to this problem, not the cause."

Yes, exactly. But telling him to get out doesn't exactly qualify, does it? What she wanted was HIM. What she told him was Go Away. Kind of counterproductive, wouldn't you say?

This isn't rocket science, cowgirl.
Posted by avast2006 on July 24, 2012 at 11:06 PM · Report this
Eva Hopkins 30
@ 29 - No, but I would have wanted to have that conversation before sex, too. Sure, she didn't know where it was going, yes that was impetuous, & probably read by the guy as rude.

But you *know* how you feel right after a good shag. All those hormones, all that vulnerability.

I think it's an equal-blame scenario. Yes, she overreacted big-time; however, put into her shoes, IDK how I'd react. If there's that kind of serious talk to be had, doing it before sex is best. After seems kinda manipulative, to me.
Posted by Eva Hopkins http://www.lunamusestudios.com on July 24, 2012 at 11:18 PM · Report this
31
Jesus fucking Christ. Why Dan didn't mention a vasectomy--or ToP getting her tubes tied--as safe and effective options, is beyond me.

Posted by Functional Atheist on July 24, 2012 at 11:31 PM · Report this
sissoucat 32
@TOP : in the face of the horrible after-effects his poor wife has already suffered in the name of contraception, I could only understand the guy's continued refusal to put a condom on it if it made his dick rot and fall down. Moreover, PLEASE do not have kids with him. Kids only fasten you for life to relationships - they never make a bad relationship better, ever. Condoms or divorce. Me, I'd say DTMFA.

@LWAM : I also like to see men in lingerie. And it makes me giggle too. My lover sometimes accomodate. I also love to have my feet licked. Foot fetichists and cross-dressers : we do exist.

@LITL : You did suck at comunicating, and Dan gave you perfect advice to make it better. Accept that the guy may not want to come back for more.
Posted by sissoucat on July 24, 2012 at 11:34 PM · Report this
33
Everyone seems fine with this "he should have talked to her before sex" idea, but I'm not really getting it.

It just sounds like a throwback to the bad old days where sex was something that men want and women ration. He got an extra ration by being a bit dishonest (by omission).

But that's not what this relationship was. These are grown up, modern people. She had sex with him because she wanted to have sex with him, not because he wanted it. And there was no lying anyway.

So I think this is just her being a bit crazy. Wanting a casual relationship wasn't wrong; changing her mind wasn't wrong; getting pissy because he didn't read her mind and realise that she'd changed - that was where she messed up. He doesn't appear to have done anything wrong.

Of course, I'm only going on what's in the letter here.
Posted by Phil H on July 24, 2012 at 11:37 PM · Report this
Eva Hopkins 34
She totally did overreact, & she knows it. But even with something casual, isn't there a little bit of consideration that one should have towards someone they're fucking? If he knew he was gonna bring this up with her, wasn't the time to do it before sex?

FWIW, I'd feel the same way if the genders in the story were reversed.
Posted by Eva Hopkins http://www.lunamusestudios.com on July 24, 2012 at 11:49 PM · Report this
35
Avast:

LITL, Dan was kinder to you than you deserve.

Your guy opened up to you right at the outset and you basically squashed him. I bet that felt really warm and fuzzy to him when you shot him down that first time...

You've treated him harshly twice [emphasis mine] now. If you really truly want him back now, and want him to trust you despite how you treated him, it's time to grovel a little. Go ahead and tell him all the things Dan said. But he left out an important one: "I'm really sorry I was such a bitch."


1) You open with a weirdly bitter-sounding rant describing this woman as "squashing" a guy who "opened up to her" when all the letter actually says is "he told me that he was interested in a relationship, and I told him that I wanted to keep things purely casual." We have no idea how it actually went down.

2) You refer to her as treating him harshly twice. I presume you mean once when she kicked him out of her apartment, and once when she initially told him she didn't want a relationship with him. Again, the letter doesn't say that he fell sobbing at her feet and she shat in his mouth while screaming "You don't deserve my love, you pathetic sack of shit!" ...as far as we know, he was like "so, I'd like us to date" and she was like "I don't think I'm into that." That's not being harsh with him; that's simply expressing that she has different expectations for their interaction. It's a harsh situation - it always sucks when the person you have feelings for doesn't return them - but unless she left a lot of stuff out of the letter, she wasn't being "harsh".

3) You say that Dan wasn't mean enough to her and essentially call her a bitch. That seems awfully judgemental - she had one incident where she acted erratic and angry with this guy because she'd been repressing feelings for him. This merits an explanation, an apology, and a note-to-self not to repress feelings again - which is pretty much what Dan recommends. But for some reason you seem to want Dan to yell at her and then for her to crawl over broken glass or something, and yeah, I can't help but link your vindictiveness to all the stuff about her "squashing" a guy who had opened up to her.

And that would be why I interpreted your original post as "a woman shouldn't be allowed to feel differently about a guy than he feels about her." You just seem entirely too hung up on the part of the story where she says she doesn't want a relationship, and how "harsh" that was and how she's a bitch who deserves to grovel.
More...
Posted by perversecowgirl on July 25, 2012 at 12:08 AM · Report this
36
#33: I totally see what you're saying, and I agree with it - if she's not trying to leverage the sex into a relationship then he's not cheating her out of anything by fucking her and then saying "BTW, I've started dating someone so we can't have sex anymore." (If that's even where he was going with that, which we don't know for sure because the letter writer cut him off.)

BUT the post-sex "I can't do this anymore" disclosure means that they just had their last sex ever, with him knowing it the whole time and her having no idea until after the fact, which seems kind of mean. I love sex, and if I'm about to go from gettin' some on a regular basis to getting nothing, I want as much warning as possible. If I know it's the last time, I'll savour it that much more.

Having The Talk after the sex just feels sketchy, like he's withholding relevant information.
Posted by perversecowgirl on July 25, 2012 at 12:34 AM · Report this
37
@36 Yeah, that makes sense.

If his "I've met someone else" meant that he was breaking things off, then yeah, it was kind a dickish to withhold the information. Break up sex can be great, but both parties should know what they're doing.
Posted by Phil H on July 25, 2012 at 12:40 AM · Report this
38
@35: Okay, fine: it was a harsh situation. You yourself say it sucks to be in that position.

And he apparently handled the harsh situation with a reasonable degree of equanimity, seeing as they continued to date, talk, and fuck so spectacularly that she actually fell for him.

But when it was her turn to be in the harsh situation -- and we don't even know if she actually was being dumped, seeing as she wouldn't let him talk -- she handled it by not letting him talk, and by summarily sending him away. THAT wasn't just a harsh situation, that was her being bitchy. THAT is more than enough to apologize for. Oddly, that seems to be the one you want to gloss over.

Broken glass. Heh. Now I can accuse you of reading comprehension issues. What I wrote was that she should say she was, and I quote, "sorry I was such a bitch." (Which is what she was being in the second incident. You only need to be a bitch once to apologize for being a bitch.) Broken glass is 100% yours.

Now, regarding "grovel": The reality is she pushed him away twice. The first time, she pushed him away, presumably gently, when he told her he wanted a relationship. That was fine, and it is her prerogative, but it does begin to establish a precedent. (And, as you note, it sucks to be on the receiving end of that, no matter how gently delivered.) The second time, she pushed him away hard, making him the villain for playing by her rules. (Funny how when she's the one who just wants to fuck, but not worry about relationship stuff, everything is peachy, but when the two of them just fuck and then he says something about someone else, he is suddenly pulling bad relationship juju on a relationship she had just recently told him she didn't want.) If she comes to him now wanting a relationship, he has every reason to view her with suspicion -- she is, to use your term, erratic. She will have some work to overcome that. That's what I meant by "grovel." She can't expect to just waltz back up to him and say "Now I'm ready, let's go steady." and expect him to buy it uncritically. She is going to need to acknowledge that she fucked up and treated him unfairly by getting angry at him for doing pretty much the same thing she just did to him.
More...
Posted by avast2006 on July 25, 2012 at 1:24 AM · Report this
39
TOP-- Vasectomy. Offer the option to your husband in lieu of condoms. But really, there's something missing from your letter. That's the part where your husband comes to you and says "I really hate condoms, but it's obvious that you hate being on the Pill. Maybe we could work this out in a month-on-month-off sort of way where you take the Pill for a month, and I use condoms for a month. After all, you're sacrificing quite a bit of your health. The least I could do is sacrifice a bit of my pleasure."

But then, if you had that sort of communication, trust, and mutual caring about one another's needs and welfare in your marriage, the two of you might try a rhythm method. I'm no fundamentalist, and it's not as wild as it sounds. You're already getting less sex for the long heavy periods reason you mentioned. If you got the timing right, you could have less sex, no nasty health side effects, and he wouldn't have to use condoms.

As it is, I really wonder about the continued success of a marriage where he's willing to watch you go through what you've been going through just so he can avoid condoms. There's something seriously fucked about that.
Posted by Crinoline on July 25, 2012 at 1:36 AM · Report this
40
@37: That's the crux of the problem. "If." Nobody knows what he was about to say.

He could well have been about to say, "There's this other girl, and she is starting to show signs of getting serious. But I've also started to see those same signs in you. I'm feeling the same -- hell, I've felt that way about you since the first time. I need to know if you are going to keep pushing me away, or have you changed your mind, because I can't be with both of you like that. I've only been with you that way because that's how you said you wanted it."

"I can't keep doing this" could be synonymous with "Goodbye," or it could be synonymous with "Can we please finally take this to the next level." If it's the latter, right after sex doesn't seem like a bad time to bring it up at all.
Posted by avast2006 on July 25, 2012 at 1:40 AM · Report this
41
Hey TOP, look up the Persona. It tracks your hormones (you pee on a stick 8 days a month) and lets you know when you're fertile (indicated by a red light) and need to take care and when you're safe (green light, and the majority of the month as you're only at risk of pregnancy for the few days around ovulation). I've been using it for 3 years now and no babies so far (and given my BF had 3 unplanned pregnancies with his ex this is a very good track record). We go for alternative venues for him finishing when I'm fertile rather than condoms as I'm allergic to latex so condoms for me are super expensive.

As a bonus, coming off the pill upped my sex drive (already high generally but off the scale around ovulation:0)) and as I want kids some day, the fact that I'm tracking this and knowing I'm ovulating is quite reassuring that everything is working well and we're just tricking the system :0)
Posted by UK girlie on July 25, 2012 at 1:48 AM · Report this
42
OH how I wish MEN could get pregnant!!! Problems such as TOP's would no longer exist!

TOP--did you have the grievous misfortune of marrying my ex?
Your pigheaded husband sure sounds like him! You have my condolences.
If he STILL balks at sharing the responsibility of preventing unwanted pregnancy and condom use, etc. as Dan suggested, then DTMFA!!!
He doesn't deserve you!
Posted by auntie grizelda on July 25, 2012 at 2:30 AM · Report this
43
@31 & @39: That's another good option. Thank you both for pointing it out.
Posted by auntie grizelda on July 25, 2012 at 2:35 AM · Report this
44
I agree with those who say the kind of birth control isn't the issue here.

It's the lack of empathy on her husband's side. I didn't use any birth control of any kind for almost a year for a variety of reasons which my ex accepted. He explained that he preferred frottage over penetrative sex with condoms which I accepted.
So we didn't have any penetrative sex for almost a year (which I seemed to miss more than he did :-( ), but I liked it because it made us more inventive in our sex life.

If you care for each other, you work together to find a solution.

I think she should dump her doc. It doesn't sound from her letter like he advised her on any other birth control options. There are plenty of options, and not everyone works for everyone.

To the diaphragm haters: I loved the diaphragm, and think its reputation is much worse than it deserves. Its efficacy is relatively high if used by someone responsible who likes using it and who combines it with spermicide.
Posted by migrationist on July 25, 2012 at 2:43 AM · Report this
45
If the fellow from couple number 2 has good control, he should just pull out. Problem solved.

No one wants to advertise this as a viable form of birth control because it's not 100% and not every guy can pull it off but if he's good, unless you're constantly having sex while she's ovulating, you'll probably be ok.

(Highschoolers everywhere please ignore everything I just said.)
Posted by Amusesmile on July 25, 2012 at 2:48 AM · Report this
46
I'm interested in why LITL wanted to keep it casual in the first place. I wonder if her (now) ex-boyfriend wondered too. Because it seems to me that the real problem isn't his timing or her change of mind. Right now it seems like it's the fact that she lied. She didn't just lie to him; she lied to herself, and that's often more damaging.
Posted by Crinoline on July 25, 2012 at 5:09 AM · Report this
47
Holy Cats Dan! You were waaaaaay to soft on LITL! I've seen you lecture folks over the relationship faux pas equivelant to playing a fiddle on sunday.

There are FAR to many people out there who make up their mind about something concerning someone else, fail to inform that person of their thoughts, and then get angry when the other person isn't a flipping mind reader.

LITL put her boytoy in the causual box - so she could enjoy the sex while keeping her options open - in effect using him until something better came along. When that failed to materialize she decided she we comfortable to 'upgrade' as you so tastelessly put it homeslice to BF status - and then got angry because he was out living his life and not sitting at home waiting for her to make up her goshdarned mind!

Maybe the next time she decides to get her freak on with some guy she should be a woman about it instead a selfish little girl.
Posted by stormcrow on July 25, 2012 at 5:28 AM · Report this
48
WTF Dan? IUDs, the rhythm method? I know you're a gay man, but your profession is sex: surely you've heard of non-hormonal birth control.
Posted by abbw12 on July 25, 2012 at 5:37 AM · Report this
GymGoth 49
Damn it, why is Dan and so many others giving LITL a pass? She is a FUCKING BITCH, period.

She sleeps with a guy and when he expresses a serious interest in her she declines, wanting to "keep it casual". He is mature about it. He could have been a dick and told her off and ended it, but he was willing to go along with what she wanted.

In fact, I venture to say she enjoyed the power (upper hand) this gave her knowing that this man really wanted a relationship with her.

He had no obligation to bring up the fact he was seeing someone else before sex. After all, she was perfectly fine with the casual sex multiple times. What difference should it have mattered to her when he brought this up? That doesn't even seem to be her complaint.

She's mad because he found someone else and did so completely under the rules SHE insisted on. Let her sulk for a few more months or years. She is entirely at fault for feeling that way.
Posted by GymGoth on July 25, 2012 at 5:39 AM · Report this
GymGoth 50
#36: BUT the post-sex "I can't do this anymore" disclosure means that they just had their last sex ever, with him knowing it the whole time and her having no idea until after the fact, which seems kind of mean. I love sex, and if I'm about to go from gettin' some on a regular basis to getting nothing, I want as much warning as possible.

I'm sorry but your argument is a bit ridiculous. The whole idea of "casual" is that it can end at any time without regrets as there was no commitment to begin with. No one needs "advanced warning". Go to a hook up site, singles bar, or masturbate for pete's sake.
Posted by GymGoth on July 25, 2012 at 5:52 AM · Report this
51
@39 You CAN NOT just hop on and off the pill. It is not a magic pill, it takes at least one cycle to get your body in synch with the hormones. One month on/one month off will not only leave you unprotected against pregnancy, it will also totally screw up your body chemistry.

@50 Yes, the relationship was casual, but it was classless for him to withhold that info until after they had sex. He could have told her before, and if she was fine with it they still could have decided to go ahead and jump into bed one last time. Was he so hard-up to get laid that he couldn't at least be forthright?
Posted by civet on July 25, 2012 at 6:28 AM · Report this
52
To Heterosexual Female,
Check out hormone free methods!
www.cyclebeads.com
www.tcof.com
diaphragm

As a former birth control pill user, here's my experience/advice:
*Get the CycleBeads app. Basically, you enter in the first date of your period & it gives you a calendar of days you are 95% likely to get preggo and days you arent. But before you can use it as birth control, you have to make sure your cycle is within range (Clinically tested bitches, calm down)

Use the app AND A BACKUP HORMONE FREE METHOD for 3 months to get a sense of if your cycle is in range. If it is, use it! If it isn't, there are a number of different charting methods you can use and your husband can too!

Also, how about a diaphragm and spermicide? I hate that you have to be exposed to chemicals you don't want though.

Can't he just get a vasectomy also..? Anyhow, those are a few ways to not get pregnant and not use invasive methods.
Posted by Ms.11 on July 25, 2012 at 6:36 AM · Report this
53
The girl in search of straight cross dressers should just head on down to her local Rocky Horror Picture Show revival (They have them in every major city, especially around Halloween) and pick up the first cute and straight one she sees. That's how I found my husband. He looks so cute in fishnets!

The girl in search of birth control options should get a second opinion from a doc as to options. I had terrible problems with pills, but am doing fine on the ring, which is much more low dose. She should also tell her husband that though condoms aren't fun during sex, BC pills aren't fun for her every moment of every day of her life and that's FAR from fair.
Posted by AllieP on July 25, 2012 at 6:40 AM · Report this
54
@6 - there isn't scientific evidence that semen boosts the mood. The "evidence" came from couples in long term relationships and the relationship wasn't accounted for.
Posted by Ms.11 on July 25, 2012 at 6:43 AM · Report this
mtnlion 55
@49, that's way too harsh. She didn't want a relationship at first. They spent more time together. She does now. She regrets what she said and wants to know if she can/should continue to go for this guy.

Yes she overreacted and misread her own feelings in the first place, but why must she be a FUCKING BITCH for making these mistakes? You're reading further into her intentions (she liked the power; she intentionally kept him in emotional suspense) than we have information about because you want to see her as a fucking bitch.

She fucked up; she's not a fucking bitch.
Posted by mtnlion http://radicalish.wordpress.com on July 25, 2012 at 6:49 AM · Report this
56
What @51 said. I can't believe how many people don't understand how the pill works. I've seen guys suggest people take "extra" pills in case of condom breakage, etc. It's not a tylenol, guys. More doesn't help.

That being said, it wouldn't hurt for the letter writer to get a second opinion from another doctor. she keep stalking about "pills" but I haven't heard anything about alternate methods of hormonal BC, like the ring I use. I couldn't take pills at all, they made me very sick, but the ring and I are just fine.

And she needs to make clear to her husband that though he may dislike condoms DURING SEX, the pill makes her life a living hell all day every day. It's not fair.

As for the first letter, get yourself down to the local Rocky Horror Picture Show revival (in every city, esp around Halloween) and pick up some nice straight boy there. That's how I met my man -- he looks so cute in fishnets!
Posted by AllieP on July 25, 2012 at 6:52 AM · Report this
57
I think if TIP's doctor told her he doesn't think other birth control options are "a good fit" for her, she should see at least 2 other ob.gyns & get their opinions on this.

I thank God for doctors, but they're as human as anyone else & aren't always right.
Posted by wayne on July 25, 2012 at 7:05 AM · Report this
58
For the woman on birth control pills, I really want to know why her GYN thinks other methods would not be ideal? I'd honestly go see another GYN for a second opinion at this point.

I've tried taking the pill many times but most of the time I ended up driving around crying for no reason after a couple of weeks. I have to take some form of birth control because I have menstruation problems (I would just bleed all of the time for months). So, my current GYN suggest the nuva-ring which has worked for me like a charm. I don't have to remember to take it every day and it doesn't make me go bonkers. Win-win for me.
Posted by Brand on July 25, 2012 at 7:11 AM · Report this
mydriasis 59
@GymGoth

You know, the funny thing is, because I agree with you about how casual works, I would have found it kind of dickish (assuming he was ending things with her).

What I'm getting at is, if I was having casual sex with someone and they wanted to end things, the thing that makes the most logical sense to me is to tell me at the beginning of the night - it's just more forthright and open which I view as generally positive/respectful things. To tell it at the end of the night seems to presume that I'll

a. treat it as a breakup and get all emotional (aka not get that it's casual)
b. not want to have sex anymore (again, not treating it as casual)

Which I wouldn't, because casual means casual in my books and I've done that quite a bit. But to my mind, the only reason he'd withold that info is because he thinks it will effect he in a specific way (despite her saying it's casual). Which is manipulative.

I think the thing is, they're suggesting he waited to tell her because he thought she'd care (and possibly not feel like having sex with him after she knew) but you think he thought she wouldn't care and it wouldn't matter when he told her.

Frankly, considering how many women say they're okay with casual sex and really aren't, and how many men (possibly because of this phenom) seem unable to comprehend that a woman might treat sex casually.... I think the former is more likely. But that's just me.

I don't know if that makes sense but...
Posted by mydriasis on July 25, 2012 at 7:11 AM · Report this
addiemonroe 60
For TOP, consider getting an implant. I'm on Implanon- a little weight gain, but not much, and almost no periods. It's like an IUD, but it's implanted in your arm, it takes like no time at all, it lasts for 3 years, and it can be taken out any time.

Granted, I didn't have too many side effects from the standard pill (unless you count the endometriosis I was recently diagnosed with that led to the switch to Implanon), so your mileage may vary. But I was skeptical of it at first and LOVE it now.
Posted by addiemonroe on July 25, 2012 at 7:16 AM · Report this
MythicFox 61
I'd like to pass along to LWAM a bit of advice I heard once from a friend online: "Laughing during sex is good. It's only pointing and laughing that's bad."
Posted by MythicFox on July 25, 2012 at 7:17 AM · Report this
62
For the woman on birth control pills, I really want to know why her GYN thinks other methods would not be ideal? I'd honestly go see another GYN for a second opinion at this point.

I've tried taking the pill many times but most of the time I ended up driving around crying for no reason after a couple of weeks. I have to take some form of birth control because I have menstruation problems (I would just bleed all of the time for months). So, my current GYN suggest the nuva-ring which has worked for me like a charm. I don't have to remember to take it every day and it doesn't make me go bonkers. Win-win for me.
Posted by Brand on July 25, 2012 at 7:18 AM · Report this
63
@48:
Why should he?
In the comments' section here, I have seen so many times "birth control" being used as a synonym for "hormonal birth control" (mostly by women, btw), I am surprised anyone here even acknowledges the existence of other methods.
Posted by migrationist on July 25, 2012 at 7:19 AM · Report this
nocutename 64
For the record, nowhere in LITL's letter did it say that the guy said, "I can't keep doing this."
Here's what she did say: "He came over, we had sex, and then he mentioned he had met someone else. As he was beginning to elaborate, I told him to leave."

Now, presumably he had been free to date others all along, as she was free to do so, and he might well have been; those casual dates don't tend to warrant a disclosure of "I've met someone else." That statement is generally used to break up, or to explain that you have met someone you really, really care about. Otherwise, in the context of a casual FWB situation, there's no need to utter it.

He couldn't be expected to be a mind reader, and indeed, it sounds like LITL didn't know her own mind until some time had passed. But he did know, when he came over that last time, BEFORE they had sex, that he had met someone he cared about strongly enough to feel the need to bring up the topic, possibly to shift the nature of his relationship with LITL--and he chose to withhold that information until AFTER they'd had sex.

Neither of these people behaved in an exemplary fashion at that last time together: he by waiting until after they had sex to mention that he was involved with someone, she by summarily ordering him out of the house, without hearing him out or telling him what she now wants him to know. They share the burden of poor relationship communication skills.

But if she feels betrayed and hurt, I understand. I don't see her as being a bitch with her initial statement of intent. This was, at its core, an issue of mismatched timing. First, he was ready when she was not. When she was, he had moved on to find someone else. The time to tell her this, however, was probably before everyone's pants came off.
More...
Posted by nocutename on July 25, 2012 at 7:30 AM · Report this
mydriasis 65
@63

Or maybe he's not a medical professional and is trusting that the LWs doctor knows what the fuck he or she is talking about?

I don't get why everyone's bitching and whining that Dan didn't suggest this or that. The LW said she covered that issue with her doctor. "My doctor does not think other options for birth control (e.g., an intrauterine device) will be a good fit for me."

He was giving her advice from that point onwards - which was appropriate in my books.
Posted by mydriasis on July 25, 2012 at 7:32 AM · Report this
Aurora Erratic 66
That two-dicks-one-ass thing sounds really uncomfortable.
Posted by Aurora Erratic http://www.finemesspottery.com on July 25, 2012 at 7:45 AM · Report this
John Horstman 67
I'm curious why TOP's doctor recommended against an IUD, unless ze's still operating on 30-year-old medical info or approaching medicine with a (shockingly common) paternalistic attitude and sexist prescription for women to make babies. TOP sounds like a perfect candidate for long-term, no-hassle pregnancy prevention.
Posted by John Horstman on July 25, 2012 at 7:46 AM · Report this
68
While IUDs can be a wonderful thing (though, I, a nullips, ended up with a lovely copper IUD stuck in my cervix for 6 weeks after a med student, an attending an a staff doctor collectively and unsuccessfully tried to jam in into my womb), but if you want to have kids sometime you really need to trust your partner not to fuck around on you. If you have a copper IUD, common STDs are more likely to give you PID and thereby make you infertile.

I wouldn't trust this selfish jackass with my fertility. But then, I don't think I'd want to have kids with him either.
Posted by historygirl on July 25, 2012 at 7:52 AM · Report this
69
Why can't the husband who won't use condoms just get a vasectomy?.
Posted by BorisG45 on July 25, 2012 at 7:58 AM · Report this
70
@mydriasis:
You misunderstood me.

In fact, as I have pointed out above, I don't think that the problem of TOP with her husband will be solved by us (or Dan Savage) suggesting other birth control options.

I was just venting my frustration about so many people equating birth control with hormonal birth control.
Posted by migrationist on July 25, 2012 at 8:00 AM · Report this
nocutename 71
Essentially, what the not-really-boyfriend did when he had sex with LIL before telling her that he'd met someone else, was to rob her of her right to make an informed choice about whether she wanted to have sex with him or not.

She fucked him on the presumption that he wasn't into anyone else more than he was into her. She also labored under the misapprehension (albeit self-imposed) that he was still willing to take things to the next level with her, and now that she was as well, she may have invested the sex with more meaning than she had earlier. This was entirely her fault, assuredly, because she hadn't communicated her feelings to him, but to be fair, they evolved over, what, a month? Not a terribly long time. He couldn't have known how she was feeling, but he could have given her the information and let her decide whether or not she could have sex with him again. It seems to me that she was honest with him initially, didn't really withhold info from him (her feelings were developing during the month they spent together), and he was in the wrong by not disclosing the info that he'd met someone else before that last romp.

Posted by nocutename on July 25, 2012 at 8:00 AM · Report this
72
I always wore condoms with my wife before I got a vasectomy. It just makes more sense to stop the little spermies at the source rather than let it happen and then try to keep them from doing their job. Also, seemed fairer to the wife--when we're done, the birth control is over, while with every other method she had to deal with it long after. Condoms can be way sexy--make them part of the experience.
Posted by turtlemilk on July 25, 2012 at 8:02 AM · Report this
73
I've used a diaphragm with spermicide in monogamous relationships my whole adult life. No hormones, no pregnancies, low cost. I've never understood the preference for the pill.
Posted by trace element on July 25, 2012 at 8:04 AM · Report this
74
Honestly, I'd have Tired of Pills' husband on DTMFA Watch. He would rather have her totally miserable than deal with the minor inconvenience of condoms? That's just inconceivably selfish to me. She's accommodated him for long enough - it's time for him to start using condoms or get himself snipped. Not always reversible, but a vasectomy would solve the problem.

But honestly, I'd just solve the problem by replacing the defective model with a husband who wasn't a selfish douchebag.
Posted by JrzWrld on July 25, 2012 at 8:07 AM · Report this
75
I agree that TOP's husband's selfish attitude ("I hate condoms so YOU figure out birth control!") is the primary problem. But hey, TOP, *why* does your husband hate condoms? Is there an issue with fit? (Try different brands and different sizes/styles in each brand.) Is there an issue with sensitivity? (Go check out Crown condoms - suuuuper cheap on Amazon - they're really incredibly thin, my husband loves them. We first heard about them here in the SL comments btw!) Is he maybe allergic to latex or a particular lubricant or spermicide?

Hormonal birth control is out of the question for me, too, so I chart my cycles (check out monthlyinfo.com - free cycle charting) and we only have to use condoms during the week or so of possible fertility.

@28, thanks for that link, I didn't realize there was a mailing list to be informed of clinical trials held in the US for RISUG/Vasalgel! I know it's a long-shot here because it goes so heavily against the interests of pharmaceutical companies, but maybe if we're lucky, the Canadians will start offering it and allow American men to pay cash for the procedure. Fingers crossed!
Posted by MarleyBarley on July 25, 2012 at 8:13 AM · Report this
76
#39, taking the pill for a month, then going off of it for a month, then repeating the process, would likely make her feel more unstable. It's not a good option. A better idea would be to go to Planned Parenthood, and find a birth control method that suits her better.

If the conflict over birth control is the tip of the iceberg in the relationship, then it's time to get some counseling. Unresolved struggles for power can doom a relationship.

This page is a good source of information about the various available versions of the Pill:
http://www.wdxcyber.com/ncontr13.htm
Posted by My Name Here on July 25, 2012 at 8:14 AM · Report this
mydriasis 77
@ migrationist

I think it's just a convention since hormonal birth control is so common. Like I say "I'm on birth control" to mean the pill but it doesn't mean I'm not aware of other forms of birth control. I think everyone just needs to mellow out.

@73

I have several friends who have no PIV and still use the pill for clearer skin, lighter and more predictable periods, less painful cramps and ease (not worrying about having to stuff things up your vagina in anticipation of every time you have sex).

Diaphragms just seem extrordinarily inconvenient to me and I'm not in love with the idea of keeping a foreign object in my body at all times. I'm a little OCD about germs too so the idea sort of wigs me out.

Plus on top of that I take Seasonale which means I only have to have a few periods a year which is fan-fricken-tastic.
Posted by mydriasis on July 25, 2012 at 8:21 AM · Report this
mydriasis 78
@ 73

Also, don't love the idea of constantly putting chemicals in my vagina either. I've never used spermicide and I have no interest in starting. Again, not really a rational thing but since the BCP is a great option for me... *shrug*
Posted by mydriasis on July 25, 2012 at 8:25 AM · Report this
nocutename 79
@72: Yay for your grown-up, responsible, and thoughtfulness. It's nice to hear about partners in couples caring for one another.
Posted by nocutename on July 25, 2012 at 8:31 AM · Report this
nocutename 80
Whoops: shouldn't have had that "and" in the first sentence.
Posted by nocutename on July 25, 2012 at 8:31 AM · Report this
81
Tired of Pills may have a history of pelvic infections. Therefore, an IUD would be contraindicated. Perhaps some other barrier method like a diaphragm? What about female condoms? NPR had a story about them recently (http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/07/…). In my opinion, her husband should just get over it and wear condoms until he is ready to either 1) be a daddy or 2) get a vasectomy. She's taken responsibility for birth control in their relationship, it's time for him to do the same.
Posted by Nom de Plume on July 25, 2012 at 8:39 AM · Report this
82
Just to add to the other-methods-of-contraception conversation: progesterone-only pills have worked brilliantly for me, while I had lots of problems with pills containing oestrogen. No periods, no breast pain, no mood weirdness, no bloating. A slight libido drop, but nothing compared to the other pills I was on.

The progesterone pills that are as effective as combination pills cost a bit more, but that doesn't bother me 'cos I'm in the UK and they're free :-)
Posted by misspiggy on July 25, 2012 at 8:43 AM · Report this
83
Dressing a man up in lingerie (or full dress) for your pleasure is called feminization.

When I became involved in the cross dressing community, it was amazing to me how many men were trying to pursue me. In the vanilla world, I do not have guys lining up for me. As a GGG GG (genetic girl) I have my pick of men. My current doll is blazingly hot as a boy and as a girl.
Posted by AmyinCM on July 25, 2012 at 8:47 AM · Report this
84
So many scorn people in here who seem to take out their own rage and frustration over being rejected at LITL.

Also a lot of people here talk about what an asshole the guy was for not telling her before sex. And how emotional sex can be and how it is hard to deal with that stuff after sex, etc...

Did anyone consider that the guy maybe wasn't sure if it was worth bringing up but decided in his more emotional state after sex to do so?

Personally I agree with Dan, she handled the situation bad and should have let him speak. If she wants a chance with him she should contact him and put her cards on the table.

She could apologize as well if she thinks she acted like an ass, if not then don't.

@71
Really? Really??? You describe it in a way that makes it sound like borderline rape (by some rape definitions).
Posted by VB on July 25, 2012 at 8:51 AM · Report this
85
A diaphragm used with spermicide is easy, cheap, effective and hormone-free. When I'm in a monogamous relationship, it's sufficiently convenient weighed against chemically changing my body or using rubbers. Obviously it doesn't protect against STDs and isn't for everyone. I'm always surprised that married or LTR people who don't like condoms don't at least give it a try.
Posted by trace element on July 25, 2012 at 8:53 AM · Report this
86
@71: "Essentially, what the not-really-boyfriend did when he had sex with LIL before telling her that he'd met someone else, was to rob her of her right to make an informed choice about whether she wanted to have sex with him or not."

Which may well have been exactly what she did with him the first time, depending on whether the "let's keep it casual" conversation happened before or after the sex. The letter is unclear on this.

"She fucked him on the presumption that he wasn't into anyone else more than he was into her."

Which is a shitty thing to do, when you are the one insisting on "keeping it casual." The technical term for that is "keeping him on a string."

She also labored under the misapprehension (albeit self-imposed) that he was still willing to take things to the next level with her,"

For all we know he still was, and may have been about to say it's EITHER time to take it to the next level that or break up. That's not the same thing as just "It's time to break up."

"and now that she was as well, she may have invested the sex with more meaning than she had earlier. This was entirely her fault, assuredly,

Agreed, but that didn't stop her from taking it out on him when she kicked him out.

"because she hadn't communicated her feelings to him, but to be fair, they evolved over, what, a month? Not a terribly long time. He couldn't have known how she was feeling,

She TOLD him how she was feeling, right up front. Now he's the bad guy for taking her at her word.

"but he could have given her the information and let her decide whether or not she could have sex with him again.

He GAVE her his information. Namely, that he was into her. She pushed him away. Presumably she kept him in that state all the while they were fucking. The onus was on her to communicate that things were changing as they were changing, so that he wouldn't continue to take her at her word and stumble across someone else.

"It seems to me that she was honest with him initially, didn't really withhold info from him (her feelings were developing during the month they spent together), and he was in the wrong by not disclosing the info that he'd met someone else before that last romp."

Getting all bent out of shape about having one last fuck with someone who was preparing to tell you he was interested in someone else is kind of disingenuous when the whole time the stated working assumption was that YOU weren't interested in HIM, other than for fucking.
More...
Posted by avast2006 on July 25, 2012 at 8:54 AM · Report this
87
Hold up. The guy said he met someone else...
and was not allowed to elaborate.

For all we know, the guy was simply giving her a heads up that he might also be having sex with someone else in the future, which would be a stand-up and reasonably timed announcement in a casual relationship at that point.

For all we know he was going to say this new person was some sort of unicorn and he wondered if she'd be interested in having someone else in for a session or more. Such an offer might be hotter to contemplate during sex, but again, nothing wrong with the statement or timing.

The guy could have been saying almost anything about this new person, and perhaps the content of his elaboration would be bad, sad or inconsiderately timed, but we and more importantly LITL has no idea where he was going with that, because LITL freaked out on him.
Posted by Casual Friday on July 25, 2012 at 9:07 AM · Report this
88
@39 Actually, I'd say going on and off the pill is a bad idea. A lot of its effectiveness is tied to consistency - taking it around the same time every day and not starting and stopping it. When I switched pills, my doc told me to use backup for 30 days to be safe, because it can take time to adjust. So one month off, one month on would probably render the effectiveness moot, most likely, and it would wreak havoc on her periods, hormone levels, etc.
Posted by LizM. on July 25, 2012 at 9:12 AM · Report this
AFinch 89
@9 - THAT is why straight guys will never ever hint at or volunteer any information which isn't strictly gender-conformist. People - hetero-women in particular - that men are inflexible or boring and then immediately label anything even remotely (and pretty mildly) off kilter as a reason to question their orientation.

I think she should post something - there are tons and tons of guys who are totally closeted about this rather mild kink who would love to find a woman to share it with.
Posted by AFinch on July 25, 2012 at 9:12 AM · Report this
90
@39 Actually, that's probably a bad idea. Much of the pill's effectiveness is tied to consistency - taking it at the same time every day and not starting and stopping it. When I switched pills, my doc told me to use backup for 30 days while my body adjusted. So if she starts and stops every 30 days, the effectiveness is likely rendered moot, and it would wreak havoc on her periods and hormone levels.
Posted by LisaM. on July 25, 2012 at 9:15 AM · Report this
91
@83 Glad you proved my point (check #16). Women who look for a loyal, creative, fun relationship with a guy who will do anything for them in return should look into dating a cross dresser.
Posted by fif on July 25, 2012 at 9:24 AM · Report this
92
Sweet Raptor Jesus, Dan. Why can't you ever remember to suggest an IUD?
Posted by Siz on July 25, 2012 at 9:29 AM · Report this
mydriasis 93
@92

Because the LW said her doctor suggested against it for fucks sake.
Posted by mydriasis on July 25, 2012 at 9:42 AM · Report this
94
@39 - Doing the month-on, month-off thing is a terrible idea if she has such a bad reaction to the hormones in the pill. For one thing, it takes a full week for the pill to be effective protection. For another, the body has to readjust every time you go on or off. It took four months for my body to get back to baseline after I went off the pill, and that's not uncommon.

Husband should get a vasectomy, or wife should get a new husband. There's no way this couple should be having children unless husband undergoes a miraculous personality change.
Posted by TheLoverly on July 25, 2012 at 9:49 AM · Report this
95
mtnlion @55:
Yes she overreacted and misread her own feelings in the first place, but why must she be a FUCKING BITCH for making these mistakes?
I actually know the answer to this one. It's not the change of heart, it's not the overreaction, it's not the misreading of her own feelings. These things do happen. It's (a) the rage at him for following her rules; (b) making him feel like it's his fault for following her rules.

Let's not forget that yelling at someone with whom you're in a sexual or romantic relationship because they made a mistake or you're in a foul mood or whatever is a dick move, but it happens. Yelling at such a partner because they did exactly what you asked them to is a classic, big, waving red flag for an emotional abuser.
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 9:53 AM · Report this
96
There is a procedure where they disconnect the pipes from the balls to the dick and you can have all the sex you want sans condom with no risk of pregnancy. They oughtta look into it. Or get pregnant, because that's the only reason to eschew a vasectomy.
Posted by Mr. Ed on July 25, 2012 at 9:55 AM · Report this
97
For TOP, I'm suprised that noone has suggested natural lamb condoms. While they are a little pricey and not std-proof, they have a totally different feeling than rubber rubbers. In my swinging single days it was sometimes difficult to keep from shooting too quickly in them.
Posted by kylecheez on July 25, 2012 at 9:56 AM · Report this
98
mydriasis @59: I'd agree with you, but for my personal experience. I had such a NSA FWB thing back in the days when I was flat-stomached and interesting, and we tried this, both of us at one time or another. What it led to was an endless series of "farewell fucks". It's actually comic, in retrospect. At least in this case it ended. Of course, that doesn't answer avast's comment that for all we know he was going to ask it to continue.

To the male fuck-buddy of LITL, if you're a Savage Love reader, take this piece of free advice:don't go back to this one. Chances are nine out of ten tht this game WILL start again and you WILL have the rules changed on you again and you WILL be blamed for it. I'm just some pseudonymous guy on the internet but I can tell you that I have been there more than once, I know. People who are enraged at you for following their rules and not being magically aware that they've internally changed them are trouble with a huge capital T and, frankly, they deserve to be alone and you deserve to not be used by them.

And in case anybody thinks I'm being too harsh, look at how she signs herself: "left in the lurch". In other words, given her own choice of words to encapsulate herself she chose ones which characterize herself as the wronged one, the one who was abandoned. If that isn't a "tell" I don't know what is.
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 10:05 AM · Report this
99
Speaking divorce-case wise: often a wife's desire to switch to condoms was the first flag that she had lost interest in her husband; it was the first barrier to intimacy placed between them, a part of the distancing process. Doesn't apply to the LW of course, just advanced here because it was an interesting and often seen, the private and sexual version of not wanting to hold hands in public, i.e. she's still in the relationship but the husband has lost her.
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 10:11 AM · Report this
100
shorter nocutename @71: It's his fucking fault and responsibility, not hers.
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 10:14 AM · Report this
101
What about Fertility Awareness Method? No condoms, no spermicide, no other barriers are used unless you are fertile, which is about 8 to 10 days every cycle on average. This method is only recommended for people in a long-term committed relationship who are free of STIs and willing to communicate about fertility.

I suggest this because I become moody, depressed, and uninterested in sex when on hormonal birth control, I dislike the potential risks of the IUD (especially when a shallow vagina and a large penis collide), and my partner has sensitivity problems with condoms.

If you want to look more into this method, there are a few good books and sites out there. However, I highly suggest Weschler's "Taking Charge of Your Fertility." The method does involve commitment and the ability and willingness to stick to the rules.
Posted by ladyjulie on July 25, 2012 at 10:19 AM · Report this
102
TOP

Freeze some sperm if you want children in the future, then snip snip, which usually takes care of unwanted pregnancies.

I haven't had time to read the comments so I apologize if someone else has provided similiar advice.
Posted by truth? and its consequences on July 25, 2012 at 10:21 AM · Report this
103
What about Fertility Awareness Method? No condoms, no spermicide, no other barriers are used unless you are fertile, which is about 8 to 10 days every cycle on average. This method is only recommended for people in a long-term committed relationship who are free of STIs and willing to communicate about fertility.

I suggest this because I become moody, depressed, and uninterested in sex when on hormonal birth control, I dislike the potential risks of the IUD (especially when a shallow vagina and a large penis collide), and my partner has sensitivity problems with condoms.

If you want to look more into this method, there are a few good books and sites out there. However, I highly suggest Weschler's "Taking Charge of Your Fertility." The method does involve commitment and the ability and willingness to stick to the rules.
Posted by ladyjulie on July 25, 2012 at 10:21 AM · Report this
ScienceNerd 104
Too many comments to read. So if someone already said this, oops.

TOP get the mirena IUD. It stops some women's periods, uses a very minimal amount of hormone locally (kind of like local anesthesia), and allows for unprotected sex with your long-term man. I love my IUD, but I have the copper one. Dear lord, don't get that...
Posted by ScienceNerd http://stanichium.tumblr.com/ on July 25, 2012 at 10:22 AM · Report this
105
@9: what @89 said. This came up in another thread and I'll repeat what I said there: "I've heard bisexual guys kvetch that many straight women really don't distinguish between "bisexual" and "gay" and so they run like rabbits from guys that are interested in MMF threesomes." The same applies to a lot of other transgressive openness: it's one thing for a woman to feel "wow, it's hot to see you in my panties", it's quite another for a guy to bring it up or admit to it, especially early on in a relationship: most women in this culture are still almost entirely invested in traditional notions of what constitutes a "man" that they will be hot for, and her panties usually aren't in the mix.
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 10:23 AM · Report this
106
I'm 39. I hear you all. Going on and off the Pill is a bad idea. I hadn't realized that when I wrote and am glad to be educated. In my defense, the one time I was prescribed the birth control pill, that's exactly how it worked. You started taking it at the end of a period, took it for 21 days, stopped for 7, then started up again. According to package instructions, one was considered unable to get pregnant from the moment one started taking it, and one could go off it at any time with a need for back-up birth control if one skipped for more than a day.
Posted by Crinoline on July 25, 2012 at 10:27 AM · Report this
Foggen 107
Too gentle with the last one.
Posted by Foggen on July 25, 2012 at 10:34 AM · Report this
108
@99- Not sure where you got this information. Is it based on some research? A divorce lawyer told you? And while it remotely may make some sense I can’t see this happening as a “phenomenon”.

So just to promote my cause, and not based on any evidence whatsoever, I will “advance” the idea that if a woman marries an already-open-about-it cross dresser neither her nor the husband will never, ever, lose interest in each other. Is there any research out there to prove me wrong?

TRUE MEN ARE NOT AFRAID TO CROSS DRESS AND USE A CONDOM!!!
Posted by fif on July 25, 2012 at 10:39 AM · Report this
109
The way LITL tells the story, she was growing to like him, was considering telling him that she wanted a long term relationship, and got angry when she jumped to the conclusion that he was dumping her for a LTR with someone else. The way she tells it, it happened in that order.

Usually I'm all about believing the information contained in the letter, but this time I'm not. I think the order of events was different. I believe she didn't fall for him in LTR sort of way until AFTER she realized that he was no longer available. I echo earlier advice to LITL's ex boyfriend: RUN! This woman is psycho. She doesn't know what she thinks, changes her mind frequently, loses her temper on too little information, and blames you for her shortcomings.

Another thought. Do we know that the boyfriend told her he was looking for a relationship after he'd gotten to know her? I'm getting a picture of set-up or personal ad. His says he's looking for a relationship. She says, on first meeting, the one over coffee, that she wants to keep it casual. If that's the case, it makes her actions even crazier. He might have said he wanted a relationship-- but not necessarily with her. So he had sex with her while he was still looking. She may have assumed that his offer off a relationship was redeemable at any time because she was convincing herself this was the case-- despite his never giving any indication.

RUN! RUN!
Posted by Crinoline on July 25, 2012 at 10:46 AM · Report this
110
@17: there is allegedly a substance in semen which transmits awakeness and feelings of well being in receiving tissues. Probably related to human survival, i.e., man rolls over and goes to sleep, woman is awake in case the dinosaurs come by. Why anyone complains about a man who falls asleep is beyond me.

@45: good way to get pregnant (between college and law school).

@61: LOL

@73: Don't use too much lube, or you can get pregnant.
Posted by marilynsue on July 25, 2012 at 10:50 AM · Report this
111
In my birth control days, we used a diaphram and spermicide. I say "we" because his job was to reduce me to quivering jelly before we got to PIV sex, then he inserted the diaphragm. Shared responsibility, shared fun.
Posted by baubo on July 25, 2012 at 10:50 AM · Report this
112
@17

Here is what I believe to be the study that I believe @6 was talking about:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24…
Posted by hexrei on July 25, 2012 at 10:53 AM · Report this
113
@17

Here is what I believe to be the study that I believe @6 was talking about:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24…
Posted by hexrei on July 25, 2012 at 10:55 AM · Report this
114
@110:
If you use spermicide (or a lactic acid based gel) with the diaphragm, there is no need for extra lube.
Posted by migrationist on July 25, 2012 at 10:55 AM · Report this
115
I had a similar problem as TOP (but with my boyfriend, not husband). The pills were making me crazy and he didn't like it when I suggested going off of them because he'd have to wear a condom. Eventually, after a 3 week period I put my foot down "My body! My choice! No more drugs!" I quit the pills and promised to revisit in 3 months. At first he grumbled about the condoms but after about 8 weeks it became clear that without the hormones I was happier and hornier and the grumbling about condoms stopped. Maybe TOP should just go for it (promising to revisit in 2-3 cycles). He can adjust or not have PIV sex. And don't feel bad about doing this, he's only thinking about what's best for him (no condoms) so you should be thinking about what's best for you (no drugs). I don't think he's necessarily DTMF selfish, he may really not know how sick these drugs are making her, he may not have (or not remember) a point of comparison if she's been on them for a long time. Once she's off and he sees how much happier she is, he (like my guy) may realize how jerky his whining was.
Posted by Raiu on July 25, 2012 at 10:56 AM · Report this
116
seeker @99 "often a wife's desire to switch to condoms was the first flag that she had lost interest in her husband"

Rather than complex psychological motivations ("barrier to intimacy"), this seems a clear sign that either:
a) she thinks he's screwing someone else, or
b) she herself is screwing someone else and doesn't want to risk her husband's health.
Posted by EricaP on July 25, 2012 at 11:07 AM · Report this
117
I googled normster but couldn't find it... please, what's its url?
Posted by ahha on July 25, 2012 at 11:07 AM · Report this
118
@117, lol. In case that wasn't a joke, Dan means that LWAM should try dating on kinky sites and also on non-kinky (normal) sites, such as OK Cupid.
Posted by EricaP on July 25, 2012 at 11:09 AM · Report this
119
71: "Essentially, what the not-really-boyfriend did when he had sex with LIL before telling her that he'd met someone else, was to rob her of her right to make an informed choice about whether she wanted to have sex with him or not."

Is this satire? Because if so, I am impressed. If not, thanks 86, for your efforts.

Regarding the cross-dressing, speaking as a guy not into that, but not opposed to a partner's request along those lines, my guess is success is yours if you approach it with lines like "Hey, time to fulfill fantasies, boyfriend! You name one, we will do it. After that, I have this one thing I want you to do with me, and gaawwwwwwd does it turn me on, so I am hoping you are down with it..."

So long as you don't invest too much seriousness into it, it will likely work; most guys are into horny women eager to have sex with them, and accordingly men will do things that make women horny and likely to have sex with them.

If he balks, back off, and let it be for a bit. He may get more comfortable with the idea, so return to it later, and smoothly ask if he changed his mind, because you are still interested if he is now willing.

If he gets crazed or angry about even the suggestion, well, that may be a function of a really straight dude's first time considering a partner's kink. Don't get defensive, a good guy will eventually find his way to accomodating you. Or that reaction may reveal deeper issues lurking...
Posted by Snowguy on July 25, 2012 at 11:10 AM · Report this
120
@nocutename: "...he was in the wrong by not disclosing the info that he'd met someone else before that last romp."

No. He was playing by her rules, based on which he would have been entirely in the right to keep sleeping with her even without disclosing the other relationship. On what grounds could she possibly have expected either exclusivity or disclosure from him? She was the one who took those expectations off the table from the start. She has only herself to blame that it blew up in her face.
Posted by cockyballsup on July 25, 2012 at 11:12 AM · Report this
121
To clarify my post @116: I don't mean that all married people who suggest condoms are cheaters or suspect their spouse is cheating.

But seeker was a divorce lawyer (if I recall correctly), so it seems likely that there was a high rate of cheating going on among the people he saw.
Posted by EricaP on July 25, 2012 at 11:13 AM · Report this
femwanderluster 122
@86 and all your other posts in this thread:

It's interesting how invested you are in proving this woman's "bitchiness."

That's all.
Posted by femwanderluster on July 25, 2012 at 11:17 AM · Report this
123
@118 lol, now I get it, thx!
Posted by ahha on July 25, 2012 at 11:17 AM · Report this
124
Coming from someone who has been on every birth control pill evaaarr, the Tired of Pills lady should really look into "natural birth control." http://www.tcoyf.com is a great resource. It essentially involved monitoring your own cervical fluid and basal body temps to figure out when you are fertile, and using condoms during fertile times (or abstaining, or doing other stuff). It's improved my sex life with my partner greatly.
Posted by larnen on July 25, 2012 at 11:17 AM · Report this
125
@119, good points. Another way for LWAM to raise the idea is by taking her own silky, satiny underthings, and incorporating them into the blowjobs she gives him. When they feel the silky fabric stroking them, they are likely to understand the appeal on a visceral level. When they orgasm soon afterwards, they'll build a happy association which will lead them right where LWAM wants them.
Posted by EricaP on July 25, 2012 at 11:18 AM · Report this
126
@108: "@99- Not sure where you got this information." That makes me laugh. I used to post that I was an ex divorce lawyer all the time until somebody did a post rolling their eyes that I mentioned it too much. I also have had, over the years, a disproportionate number of lawyers and counsellors amongst my friends and acquaintances, and we shop talk. One of the consistent characteristics of divorces is how obvious warning flags seem in retrospect, and how often the sandbagged party saw them but didn't observe them.

@116: My statement doesn't oppose yours, it just parallels it: I saw it a lot in cases where the condom requirement was the first flag long before infidelity actually started, or where it never happened. It's a good cynic's rule of thumb that if a woman is upset with her man and asks for a switch to condoms (without medical "reason"*) then that relationship is almost over; she's still in the building but she has definitely checked out.

* "reason" with q-marks just means that there may be a medical excuse, i.e. whatever the "reason" is she didn't care about it when things were well, but it suddenly became important enough to act on when her feelings for her man changed.
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 11:23 AM · Report this
127
@122: My original point was that he now has reasons to distrust her, and she had better be prepared to own up to them, if she wants him to take her seriously.
Posted by avast2006 on July 25, 2012 at 11:32 AM · Report this
128
Messrs Finch/Seeker - The point of #9 had nothing to do with "questioning" her ex's orientation because he thought her request was "degrading". I don't think there is anything *orientationally* indicative about any particular attitude of any particular man towards wearing lingerie. What I thought my post clearly implied was that his orientation was germane to my opinion of his attitude.

You inferred, "Anyone with Attitude X can't (or might not) be straight." What I said was that I'd call a straight man with Attitude X (probably) a misogynist, but not necessarily a gay/bi man with Attitude X.

I am not trying to evaluate someone's orientation based on his expressed attitude; I am trying to evaluate his expressed attitude based on his orientation. Gay/bi men frequently have a history of being degraded in conjunction with being feminized that I believe justifies giving any particular gay/bi man a pass if he finds the prospect of wearing lingerie degrading. Such a man might still be a misogynist anyway, but on other evidence yet to be sought or supplied. I am open to the idea that there could be a factor of which I'm unaware that would similarly excuse a straight man, but, as mentioned, I'm unaware of it.
Posted by vennominon on July 25, 2012 at 11:36 AM · Report this
129
I know everyone just LOVES their IUDs, but there are good reasons not to get one. I was seriously considering getting one until my mom saw my pamphlet for it and she and I had a conversation about what hell she had been through with both the copper and the hormonal kinds- long periods, terrible cramping, etc. This wouldn't have mattered to me except that I basically got the exact same reproductive system as her.

So, just fyi, it's not always an old-fashioned doctor. I personally think the guy should just suck it up and go in for condoms, but I also think she might want to dump him if he doesn't care about the fact that she's miserable on pills.
Posted by alguna_rubia on July 25, 2012 at 11:50 AM · Report this
130
IUDs are contraindicated in many women with autoimmune conditions (the cord can funnel infectious organisms into the uterus, which wouldn't be a problem for normal women, but could lead to infection in immune compromised women) and some other health issues as well. There is no birth control solution that works for everybody.
Posted by no IUD for me on July 25, 2012 at 12:01 PM · Report this
131
Would just like to say that LWAM's fantasy is totally mine too! (28biF) You're not alone at all!
Posted by Mary5757 on July 25, 2012 at 12:04 PM · Report this
132
vennominon @128 - My point was fairly narrow: that a lot of guys with transgressive kinks learn real fast to be wary of disclosing them, given that our culture's generally accepted definitions of "masculinity" don't permit them. Put differently, Confess It And Lose Your Man Card. It makes it harder for women like the LW, because bringing it up lights up the DANGER WILL ROBINSON! in the man, but makes women like the LW triply valuable to those kinksters lucky enough to find one.

You said "You inferred, 'Anyone with Attitude X can't (or might not) be straight.'". This is incorrect. My view would be more accurately expressed as You inferred, "Anyone with Attitude X will (far too often) be taken as not straight, or gay." Put more bluntly, I have heard complaints from bi friends of the open-mindedness two-step:
GF: "Oh my god, boyfriend, a MMF is so hot. Two guys with each other is so hot."
BF: "I like the idea of another man in our bed."
GF: (thinks) "Oh my god, he's not into me he's into guys! Time to go!"

To be fair, I've heard it less in the past ten years. Whether that's because my friends have become boring and settled down or because people are getting better at sorting these things out in advance I couldn't tell ya.
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 12:05 PM · Report this
133
Just a heads-up; a few have suggested different ways to track fertility as non-hormonal birth control options.

The Cycle Beads sound neat, except for the fact that they apparently operate on the same principle as the notoriously unreliable "rhythm" or "calendar" method (you know, the one so many Catholic couples with 13 kids use/d at the urging of the church?)

In order to accurately predict and/or confirm ovulation (and hence fertility) it is necessary to monitor the signs and symptoms associated with it...it can vary from month to month and from woman to woman and no calendar or other standard calculating device can be relied upon to catch those variations.

The little sticks you pee on to check hormone levels sound expensive (have you seen the cost of pregnancy tests lately?)

Much cheaper to just invest in a basal thermometer (more finely calibrated than the regular ones) and a tablet of graph paper....take your waking (or basal/base) temp. every morning and chart it on the paper. Takes all of 5 minutes a day before you get out of bed. Also monitor your cervical mucus and/or cervix itself.
(find a good book or look on-line for detailed info on the "fertility awareness" method).

The egg only lives for 24 hours, and sperm can only live inside your body for (at most) 4-5 days. So if you use the strict method (which, when used correctly, is as effective as the pill), and only have unprotected PIV sex AFTER ovulation and the death of the egg has been confirmed via temp and other signs (and don't risk it in the days approaching ovulation) that amounts to about a week a month of either abstinence or condom use.

Also, there's an awesome little device, a small lens you hold up to the light, which allows you to check your hormone fluctuations (and hence your approaching, declining, or absent fertility) by smearing a bit of cervical mucus OR saliva on the lens and viewing it (fertile or approaching fertile secretions reveal a "ferning" pattern).

But really, I would stick to temp and cervical tracking, at least until you are really experienced and confident.

For the writer with the selfish lover who'd rather see her go through health issues and misery rather than reduce his sensation or take responsibility for his own secretions, this might be a viable option.

Go OFF the fucking pill (it messed me up big time, too, for the 8 mths I used it way back when, and I am highly sensitive to spermicide as well) and spend a few to several months tracking your cycle and learning the method. If he wants PIV sex during that time, tell him his only option is wearing a condom. As it will be later if he wants PIV sex during your fertile times.

If he refuses to support you in reclaiming your health and power (over both your fertility AND his selfish manipulations) DTMFA.

More...
Posted by AnastasiaBeaverhousen on July 25, 2012 at 12:07 PM · Report this
134
@LWAM: your fantasy is totally mine too! You are definitely not alone!
Posted by Mary5757 on July 25, 2012 at 12:17 PM · Report this
135
seeker@126 I can see how it was a convenient diagnostic tool. But I just don't understand your confidence that you yourself knew when the infidelity started, or when her trust in his fidelity eroded.

seeker@132 "To be fair, I've heard it less in the past ten years."
There was a long time when gay men often married women to stay in the closet. (And therefore any indication of gender-bending was a sign he might be gay and the whole marriage was a lie.)

As it has become easier for men to be openly gay, it has become easier for women to accept that a little gender-bending doesn't mean a guy is repulsed by pussy.
Posted by EricaP on July 25, 2012 at 12:18 PM · Report this
AFinch 136
@9 & @128 - you wrote:

"I ask because all the reasons that come to mind for a straight man to find the request degrading are rather misogynistic."

No offense, but that's just a limit of your own imagination.

Here's the thing: it's entirely possible that a bi or gay man might find it degrading to prance around in a male g-string - any many, regardless of orientation - might find dress up and parade around degrading - another way of saying "silly". The implication in your statement - the validity of your observation notwithstanding - that a gay or bisexual man would find feminine attire less degrading is an entirely fair basis for judging your statement. There's a lot of research to suggest that most cross-dressers are straight, so I also question the validity of your observation.

It might be the case that bi or gay guys are more comfortable in their own skins (sexual identities) and therefore better able to tolerate feeling silly (the Village People anyone?) but I believe (based on no evidence I can cite) that most "masculine" gay dudes would be less than happy if their partners started asking them to femme it up with lingerie.

In short, I'm guessing the first guy was just more comfortable in his identity and was better able at being GGG.
Posted by AFinch on July 25, 2012 at 12:25 PM · Report this
137
EricaP @135 re "I don't understand your confidence". Two reasons. First, sometimes the evidence established it clearly, either by admission or proof. Second, people who do something for a living get pretty good at drawing accurate conclusions from insufficient data. Could I have been wrong? Sure. But I'll take a pro's guess as to "what really happened" most of the time, and I was a pro.
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 12:26 PM · Report this
138
@133:
The temperature method is not as fool-proof as you say. A fever, working shifts, getting really drunk etc. pp. all mess up your temperature curves.
I am not against it but it is not for everyone.

There is no birth control that works for everyone.
Posted by migrationist on July 25, 2012 at 12:28 PM · Report this
AFinch 139
@128 "You inferred, "Anyone with Attitude X can't (or might not) be straight." "

Well, yes, that is what I inferred, and...

"What I said was that I'd call a straight man with Attitude X (probably) a misogynist, but not necessarily a gay/bi man with Attitude X."

...that is much more clearly put. I've re-read @9 and I see that you were trying to say:

"BF2 who refused might be bisexual because gay and bisexual people have a history of being degraded as 'feminine' and would therefore find the request degrading"...paraphrasing obviously.

I misread @9 to say BF1 might have been bisexual for agreeing to the request so easily.

I still believe that any attempt to correlate lingerie wearing as gender-normative indicator of orientation is likely to end in FAIL and only perpetuates stereotypes. Whether @132 is right (I agree with him) that anything non-gender-normative in men is a one way ticket to loss of man-card, and whether @135 is right in her justification of women's judgements in that regard, I think the underlying correlation is bad.

I do think that many straight women want "manly man" dominant/aggressive behavior from men - particularly in bed - and that any hint of non-andro behavior is probably a justifiable cause for concern.
Posted by AFinch on July 25, 2012 at 12:44 PM · Report this
140
@137 what kind of "admission or proof" can indicate that a person was NOT having other extramarital sex before that point? He eventually admits his affair with neighbor Sally; he could still be lying about the other affair he got away with last year. You cannot evaluate your "accurate conclusions" because you never got access to the Full Truth. People lie, even to their divorce attorneys and ex-wives.

And anyway, at some point his wife no longer trusted him, regardless of whether he had consummated any affairs. Her loss of trust is correlated with them coming to your attention, but doesn't mean that you have perfect knowledge of what got them to that point.
Posted by EricaP on July 25, 2012 at 12:55 PM · Report this
141
Seeaker @ 126 – I was asking because there was no indication you’re an ex divorce lawyer (divorced from practicing divorce law?). And since you are an authority, what’s the divorce rate among couples who got married already knowing the guy is into cross dressing? And I’m not talking about those who were hiding it for years, hoping to find a “cure” while feeling ashamed, and the wife freaked out once she found out.

Mary @134- What would you like me to wear for you??????????????
Posted by fif on July 25, 2012 at 1:04 PM · Report this
142
Oh, for fuck's sake, Erica. I basically said, "sometimes it was proven and sometimes it was an intellectual conclusion", and conceded that sometimes I might have been wrong. What doesn't that cover? At what point did I claim "perfect knowledge"? It's a comment on a blog, it doesn't have (nor should it have) four thousand footnotes, caveats, explanatory endnotes and a fekkin' glossary.

It is interesting, though, that you assume that it's because of a man's affair. I didn't take a stand on whose affairs (if any) we were talking about; all I said was "often a wife's desire to switch to condoms was the first flag that she had lost interest in her husband; it was the first barrier to intimacy placed between them, a part of the distancing process". Not always; not a majority of the time ... just "often". And if I'm not claiming "always" then, by defintition, I am not claiming that my comment covers all situations.
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 1:07 PM · Report this
143
I had the same exact problem as TOP. I tried eight different kinds of pills. All of them made me feel awful. I suffered depression, weight gain, moodiness, irregular bleeding, you name it.

I refuse to take ANY hormonal birth control now. But fortunately, I found a very simple, safe, tried and true alternative that I now use - the Copper IUD.

The Copper IUD is nearly as effective as sterilization, it causes no mood changes, and you can get pregnant right away once it is removed. And if you don't want to remove it, it lasts for ten years. It is even same for women who haven't had children, and insertion was less painful that a routine pap-smear.

The only negative side effect was that my periods were a few days longer for the first few months, but they returned to normal six months out.

Now that I use the IUD, I kick myself for what I put my body through all those years when there was such an easy, safe and effective alternative available to me.

I don't know why doctors don't recommend this product more often, but I think every woman concerned about the side effects and reliability (who hasn't missed a pill once or twice?) should look into the IUD.
Posted by regina1975 on July 25, 2012 at 1:29 PM · Report this
144
@Everybody weighing in on the condom issue.

Please show some empathy for those of us who got used to having sex after there was birth control, but before AIDS. In retrospect it was a free ride, a blip in history. But it got me started off on feeling that having sex was the physical expression of an overall intimacy, not just a way to help each other get orgasms. I know it seems corny and will forever keep me away from the more baroque practices discussed in these pages. But I really feel this way, and I bet a lot of other people my age do too.

Sure, I can get off in a condom. And that's exactly what it feels like. I'm there to get off in a person instead, and if a condom's involved we're both missing the point (beyond, of course, the mutual getting-off part).

So what to do. I certainly don't demand complete trust of the people I make love to, and don't ask them for that either. But I do get tested frequently. This means I'm asking them for three months' of trust, for the time period the test is good for. That excludes some relationships, true, but the kind I'm looking are certainly good for that.

Posted by Token Straight Old dude on July 25, 2012 at 1:40 PM · Report this
mydriasis 145
"Please show some empathy for those of us who got used to having sex after there was birth control, but before AIDS"

No.

Or how about this. When those of you in that demographic feel like apologizing for being the major players in the genesis of drug resistant STIs then we'll talk.
Posted by mydriasis on July 25, 2012 at 1:51 PM · Report this
146
Please show some empathy for those of us who got used to having sex after there was birth control, but before AIDS. In retrospect it was a free ride ...
Which is exactly why NO EMPATHY FOR YOU! Jealous rage will have to suffice. ;)

That joke said, there is often a fair degree of anger here aimed at people who don't like or can't bear condoms.
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 1:52 PM · Report this
147
@142, You said the "first barrier to intimacy" was the wife's request to use condoms. That's what I'm disagreeing with. I think the wife's request to use condoms comes after intimacy & trust have already eroded significantly, 90% of the time. Most of the time, both partners are probably somewhat to blame for getting to that point. Asking for the condom is a flag to you, the professional. It may also be the first flag the husband sees. But I believe a wife has been seeing red flags for a long time before she asks to use a condom. (Leaving aside routine condom usage unrelated to the end of a marriage.)
Posted by EricaP on July 25, 2012 at 1:52 PM · Report this
148
Tired of Pills: Women are only fertile for a few days out of the month, right around when they ovulate. You should figure out your ovulation cycle (I'm sure there's something online that says how to do it, or ask your gyn); that way, you only have to abstain for a few days, or the BF only has to wear a condom during those few days.
Posted by jujubees on July 25, 2012 at 1:54 PM · Report this
149
I personally swear by an IUD if it would work for you (consult a medical professional beforehand obviously). Neither I nor my girlfriend are fans of condoms (although we're getting back into using them as we're planning some experimentation with other people). She use to be on the hormonal birth control and had problems very similar to those described above. The IUD has given her none of those problems. She loves it. That being said, apparently getting it implanted hurts like a motherfucker. Until that male birth control shot gets marketed here, I'd recommend an IUD.
Posted by MarquisDesMoines on July 25, 2012 at 2:15 PM · Report this
150
@136: "I believe (based on no evidence I can cite) that most "masculine" gay dudes would be less than happy if their partners started asking them to femme it up with lingerie."

You are right. I would dump their ass so fast they wouldn't know what hit them. It is not that I would not judge him - I would just never be able to be sexually aroused by a guy who asked me that... ever... again... Little chance of that happening with another gay guy, though, since guys who are into lingerie are 99% straight.

I think straight people get confused by drag queens. Drag is mostly done for parody, not because gay guys find any sexual excitement in drag.
Posted by cockyballsup on July 25, 2012 at 2:15 PM · Report this
nocutename 151
Seeker, Avast, Snowguy, and all the others who think I'm taking the woman's "side" in LITL: I think you're reading into my comments some of your own issues. I was just suggesting that coming over, having sex with someone, and THEN saying "I've met someone else" isn't exactly a fair thing to do. People should know the status of others so that they can decide whether given the circumstances, they want to have sex. I'm not being hostile to the man, but boy is there a lot of male-commentor hostility being directed at the female letter writer.
Posted by nocutename on July 25, 2012 at 2:21 PM · Report this
152
@147: Erica, you're making an assumption, and one grounded in the sub-assumption that either directly or indirectly the man is to "blame" (for lack of a better word. Sometimes he is, and the condom demand reflects that lack of trust. Sometimes she is, and the condom demand reflects the diminution of her feelings of intimacy towards him, an intercourse version of "don't touch me", if you will.
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 2:29 PM · Report this
153
@Token Straight Old dude: "Sure, I can get off in a condom. And that's exactly what it feels like. I'm there to get off in a person instead, and if a condom's involved we're both missing the point..."

I have a lot of sympathy for your point of view, and I am a younger gay dude who never had the free ride you did.

A lot of women here couldn't give a damn for this point of view because they are not the ones who lose sensation, but the truth is that condomless sex feels so much better to most guys, not just psychologically but also physically. Ladies, how would you feel if you had to put a glove on your clit that inhibited your enjoyment and possibly your ability to orgasm? Or think of something else you really enjoy (maybe oral, or kissing, or cuddling), and imagine giving that up with your husband forever...

Most monogamous gay guys I know, including myself, get tested a couple of times over a 6 month period and then don't use condoms any more.
Posted by cockyballsup on July 25, 2012 at 2:31 PM · Report this
154
nocutename @151: "Why are you angry with me, Captain? It's not me out of step, it's all these other guys."
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 2:31 PM · Report this
155
nocutename @151: So, joking aside, your point is that if we call out somebody for acting like an asshole we are automatically wrong if the asshole in question is female? The assholishness magically disappears and we now have "issues" and are showing gender hostility? That's a fairly common argument to make in gender studies programs, but will it play here, I wonder.
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 2:38 PM · Report this
nocutename 156
And a lot of misreadings about what LITL's feelings SHOULD have been.
Look at her letter again. The first time they have sex he tells her he's serious; she's not, but they continue to date casually, and during the next month and a half, her feelings grow. Clearly, during that same month and a half, he meets someone who is ready for what he has to offer, and he tells her this after he comes over for sex.
LITL is angry with him for not disclosing that info before that last fuck, so she could have talked about what that means to the two of them, reacts emotionally, tells him to leave and then confesses to herself that she regrets having let him go. She was wondering whether she should try to tell him now that she really cares, wondering if she even has a shot.

Crinoline has taken it upon herself, in post #109, to second-guess every line in the letter, and to decide that the whole thing is the lying rant of a crazy woman. Cockyballsup and others are saying "hey, she is the one who said no to a real relationship, she set the rules, now she objects when he wants to follow them."

I ask all of you, quite earnestly: did you know from the first date or a first sexual encounter with someone, how you would feel? Have you never gradually felt yourself developing feelings when you didn't intend to? Do you believe only in love at first sight, and if it wasn't there, it can't ever be there later?

This isn't a game with rules, or a legal process: it's human emotion. She isn't asking to be held "right;" she's wondering if Dan thinks she has a shot at a second chance with this guy.
Posted by nocutename on July 25, 2012 at 2:38 PM · Report this
157
Here, this may be of help in clarifying the use of the word "issues":
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph…
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 2:40 PM · Report this
158
@144: No. Your request for empathy for the old guys is version 837 of the oh-so-familiar "But it feels BETTER without a condom." No shit. It's a compromise you learn to live with if you want to have sex and be a nonwhiny grown-up about it, and no one wants to listen to the 837 reasons you'd rather just skip it. (The winner is still the person who suggested sex with condoms isn't even sex, thereby re-virginizing a host of people.)

The emotional component and intimacy are still there. The 'point' of sex, even the point of sex in a longtime committed relationship, is not destroyed, or even particularly affected, by the occasional bit of latex. (Unless the point is to get pregnant.)
Posted by IPJ on July 25, 2012 at 2:41 PM · Report this
159
Since the comments are rolling on, I will take my turn at noting that everyone who says "Talk to your medical professional about an IUD!" has missed the part of the letter where she did that and the doc thinks it a bad choice. (Past PID being one example.)
Posted by IPJ on July 25, 2012 at 2:46 PM · Report this
nocutename 160
@155 (seeker6079): No, I think we should call an asshole an asshole, be the asshole male or female. If you've read my comments here, I do that. I don't take a woman's "side" just because I am one. For the record, I don't think either of these people is an asshole. This is an issue of mismatched timing. The guy had every right to continue looking for a woman who wanted what he wanted and to continue in a casual relationship with a woman who initially told him that that was all she was interested in.
But if he has met someone he wants to pursue in a more committed or romantic relationship (which I think is the most logical way to interpret "I've met someone else"), I think it was fairly crummy to disclose that information after having sex with someone else.

That's all I'm saying.
Posted by nocutename on July 25, 2012 at 2:47 PM · Report this
AFinch 161
"I don't know why doctors don't recommend this product more often, but I think every woman concerned about the side effects and reliability (who hasn't missed a pill once or twice?) should look into the IUD."

Waaay back in the day, when the IUD was originally introduced, and was, as people now feel again, the Schnizzit, one of the more popular original versions caused massive uterine infections and other issues, leaving many women scarred (tubes) and infertile (my ex-wife is one of those), if not dead, after major hospitalizing illness. This was in the pre-IUF/IVF days, and it may now be possible for those same women to get pregnant, but it caused quite a poo-storm at the time and left a lot of people very gun-shy.
Posted by AFinch on July 25, 2012 at 2:51 PM · Report this
162
"I think you're reading into my comments some of your own issues. "

Oh, agree with you or we have "issues".

Say, what is the mental health equivalent of Godwin's Law, such that when someone claims you have issues, they lose the debate? If there is none, we should create one.

Hey, how option option C? Option C is we can be perfectly reasonable, healthy people who think you are wrong?

Staggering, I know, but in a universe of infinite possibilities, in one of those infinitive universes, you may actually be .... wrong. Or at least involved in a debate where reasonable minds can differ as to the conclusions.
Posted by Snowguy on July 25, 2012 at 3:06 PM · Report this
163
TOP

Lysistrata until your husband becomes more reasonable
Posted by a skeptic and a cynic on July 25, 2012 at 3:15 PM · Report this
164
@153, Do you think your experience of sex with a condom feels better or worse than what the average woman gets as far as pleasure during sex? (In the real world, the world with condoms and with guys who don't appreciate vibrators and are done after 5 minutes of oral; not some imaginary world where the average woman has fantastic multiorgasmic sex)...

"no one wants to listen to the 837 reasons you'd rather just skip it."

This.
Posted by EricaP on July 25, 2012 at 3:17 PM · Report this
165
@152 "you're making an assumption...that either directly or indirectly the man is to blame"

Me @147: "Most of the time, both partners are probably somewhat to blame for getting to that point."

I didn't say he's to blame. I said that unless she herself is having an affair, she doesn't trust him. Whatever the reason for that lack of trust, it didn't start when she asked to use a condom.
Posted by EricaP on July 25, 2012 at 3:21 PM · Report this
166
@ 41 - is there any way to get Persona in the US other than just sneakily ordering from Britain? Looks like a fantastic alternative for those who would just like to know when are condom days and when aren't (I'd ditch hormonal BC in an instant if condoms were just a 'sometimes' alternative !!)
Posted by flyingOlive on July 25, 2012 at 3:27 PM · Report this
167
@166, have you ever tried charting your fertility? Checking morning temp + getting to know the consistency of your cervical fluids works well for many women. I did it to get pregnant, but many women use it to prevent pregnancy too.
Posted by EricaP on July 25, 2012 at 3:32 PM · Report this
168
@165: EricaP, you are saying, in essence, "it might be his fault, it might be hers, but she no longer trusts him, hence the demand for a condom". And in that you may be correct.

I'm saying limiting it to "trust" is, well, too limited. It might simply because he doesn't love him any more and doesn't want him naked inside her. Or are you taking the position that such things never happen? You're entitled to, of course, but it'd be akin telling me that orangutans don't exist: you aren't going to convince me because I've seen a few.
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 3:44 PM · Report this
169
@151: I agree with you that it was exceedingly tone-deaf of him to bring up another girl right in the post-coital afterglow. Not sure I would call it "unfair," at least not in the context of an avowed fuck-buddy situation. Clueless, insensitive, awkward, yes. Unfair, not so much. If the idea that he might be banging someone else is enough to make you say, "If I'd known that, I never would have had sex this last time" -- let alone doing it angrily by not letting him even finish his explanation, and throwing him out of the house -- you have no business calling what you are doing "casual."

If it had been a conventional relationship, then yes, I would have called it unfair. The problem seems to be that Letter Writer's heart converted the situation from "casual" to "actual," and the boy was the last to find out.
Posted by avast2006 on July 25, 2012 at 3:58 PM · Report this
170
@164: "Do you think your experience of sex with a condom feels better or worse than what the average woman gets as far as pleasure during sex?"

So just because you can't have fantastic sex, no man should get to have it? Way to go with the passive aggressiveness there :)

Anyway, I'm gay, so my frame of reference is different. I often do feel sorry for the straight dudes, though... They are always welcome over on our team (oh, and do they ever stray!)...
Posted by cockyballsup on July 25, 2012 at 3:59 PM · Report this
nocutename 171
Wow: I didn't realize what a nerve I'd hit when I used the word "issues."
I noted that several people seemed almost personally angry with LITL; now some of them seem angry at me for saying that I think the guy in her letter should have told her he had met someone else BEFORE having sex with her so as to let her decide whether she wanted to continue having sex with him.

Hey, Snowguy, I don't think there is a right or wrong here, so I'm not trying to establish my rightness. I wasn't trying to attack you, and don't quite understand the hostility in your addresses to me.

I apologize for having inadvertently hit upon such a loaded word, but I think you're misreading both the original letter and my comments on it.
Posted by nocutename on July 25, 2012 at 4:05 PM · Report this
172
@170, In your post @153 you tried to play on women's sympathy. Since your response to my post @164 is to be unsympathetic about women's mediocre sexual experience, perhaps you can see why I don't feel guilty about prioritizing my health and my husband's health over a casual partner's sexual pleasure. Or perhaps you can't. In any case, I don't feel guilty about insisting on condoms. Men are welcome to walk away if they don't think they'll enjoy it that way.
Posted by EricaP on July 25, 2012 at 4:15 PM · Report this
173
Since when do you have to have had a baby to use an IUD? In the early 80's I was one of many folks who went to teen age medical services in Minneapolis and had a copper 7 put in. The recommendation at the time was to replace it after 4 years. I left mine in for 10. Worked fine. After that, I had a copper T put in, left it in for two, then decided to get my tubes tied. Personally I'd stay away from any hormonal-related IUDs; as when I was on BCP for the two months in between the T and the surgery, I lost (I mean totally LOST) any desire, as well as most of the physical response to having sex. Yuck.

Anyway, I can say the IUD works just fine in women who have not had kids.
Posted by OpinionatedNewt01 on July 25, 2012 at 4:16 PM · Report this
174
They are always welcome over on our team (oh, and do they ever stray!)...
cockyballsup, I deeply, deeply resent that implication that I'm straying into fag land.

Now give me back goddamned pants and underwear so I can storm out of here in proper high dudgeon.
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 4:20 PM · Report this
175
"He has made it clear that he hates condoms, although his dislike of condoms sounds far less severe than her side effects from the pill. "
The trouble is though, that there are multiple options she can use. He has condoms or permanent surgery, and that's it, then there's the shared solutions of changing the actual sex acts. Any "fair" arrangement that keeps in mind the difference in their array of options will seem asymmetrical to those who don't.

That said, if he wants to make this argument, given the context the letter gives, he should definitely get on the male pill the moment it's on the market.
Posted by sd393 on July 25, 2012 at 4:21 PM · Report this
176
Wow: I didn't realize what a nerve I'd hit when I used the word "issues."
Because it's so often language designed to dismiss an argument without addressing it. It's code language, essentially meaning "you disagree with me not because I may be wrong, but because there's something wrong with you".
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 4:25 PM · Report this
177
@168 "It might simply because [s]he doesn't love him any more and doesn't want him naked inside her."

I'll open this up to the peanut gallery: any women ever feel this way? Long-term partner, you trusted him completely, not having an affair yourself, no problems with birth control... You just felt like starting condoms again because you didn't want him naked inside you.

If two women post to say they went through those feelings at the end of a relationship, I'll concede the point, seeker.
Posted by EricaP on July 25, 2012 at 4:28 PM · Report this
xjuan 178
Sorry to read your letter, TOP. I guess you're living with an insensitive POS who does not value you and/or himself. That's supposed to be a shared responsibility but his putting it all on your plate. He should freeze some of his sperm and go have a vasectomy.
Posted by xjuan on July 25, 2012 at 5:33 PM · Report this
Kevin_BGFH 179
Are Kinkster and Normster actual dating/hookup websites? I looked for them without avail. Seems useful when you have a particular itch to scratch (mine being strip poker scenarios) and are looking for just the right person/people to scratch it.
Posted by Kevin_BGFH http://biggayfrathouse.typepad.com/blog/ on July 25, 2012 at 5:48 PM · Report this
180
144- Straight Old-- If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that you do feel intimacy when having condomless sex with a woman who is bearing the full brunt of the responsibility for not getting pregnant and who is experiencing weight gain, moodiness, loss of libido, and periods that last 2 weeks, but you don't feel intimacy when having sex with a happy, healthy woman while wearing a condom. Is that it? And I'm supposed to feel empathy for you?

While we're at it, will you feel some empathy for me? I used to be able to eat whatever I liked without ever feeling bad, getting acid indigestion, or gaining weight. Now I have to make sure I get 3 small balanced meals each day or risk bad health. Also, I used to make more money, and I was way prettier when I was younger. Have a heart. Start feeling sorry for me.
Posted by Crinoline on July 25, 2012 at 6:04 PM · Report this
nocutename 181
@177: EricaP asked this: "I'll open this up to the peanut gallery: any women ever feel this way? Long-term partner, you trusted him completely, not having an affair yourself, no problems with birth control... You just felt like starting condoms again because you didn't want him naked inside you."

Ill weigh in as just one womnan.

Nope. Here's when I wanted my long-term partner, whom I trusted and on whom I wasn't cheating to switch to condoms: When I was tired of using hormonal birth control, and didn't want either of us to be sterilized (yet), because I thought we might want to have another child down the road.

When I was tired of having all the responsibility of contraception rest on my shoulders, and wanted my husband to share the burden.

When I didn't want an invasive birth control device that had to be implanted or was occasionally linked to PID, infertility, or longer, crampier, heavier periods (at the time, the only IUDs were the coil and the 7, not Mirena), or removed in a doctor's office.

When I was tired of having to insert a diaphram, fumbling in the bathroom with gel or foam, right as things were heating up.

When I was tired of being frustrated at trying to get fitted for a cervical cap, obtaining a cervical cap, and worrying that I hadn't inserted the cervical cap correctly.

When I wanted contraception that was available easily and affordably, with minimal difficulty to use, when I didn't want to wonder any more if my long-term contraception method would contribute to my earlier-than-necessary death by stroke or cancer, when I wanted us to use a birth control method that was easily reversible if we decided to try for another child, and when I thought it would be fair to ask my husband, a supposedly equal partner in our marriage to assume some of the responsibility for contraception, that was when I wanted the switch to condoms.

It had nothing to do with emotional intimacy, with trust, with having him naked inside me (from a woman's perspective, it doesn't feel all that different, and the primary difference in vaginal intercourse, unless you're into semen-play, is the lack of wet spot in which to try and fall asleep). It was no red flag.

Fortunately for me, my husband didn't interpret it any way other than it was meant.

Just one woman's point of view.
More...
Posted by nocutename on July 25, 2012 at 6:11 PM · Report this
nocutename 182
I forgot to add that that marriage ended, so it fits the criteria for EricaP's and seeker6079's discussion. But my wanting to switch to condoms, which we did for 4+ years between the birth of our first and second child, before my ex-husband got a vasectomy after our second child, was no red flag about a pulling away from the marriage on my part.
Posted by nocutename on July 25, 2012 at 6:15 PM · Report this
mydriasis 183
@ Crinoline.

I think I love you for that post.

@Erica

re: condoms

I've never been in that situation but I will say that I've had casual sex with guys who I really strongly disliked (with a condom) and would NEVER have condom-free sex with a guy I didn't like (even if magic fairies could protect me from STIs). Sex without a condom doesn't feel 'better' to me but it does feel more 'intimate'.

I also don't see sex as the be-all and end-all of intimacy at ALL though and have never understood why people associate them so closely. (Another reason why I'm not sympathetic to 'wahh I don't want to wear a condom' bull) I am very emotionally intimate with people who I've never had sex with (friends, etc) and had sex with people who I was not only not-intimate with but actually quite disliked.

Obviously I'm not a normal person though so...
Posted by mydriasis on July 25, 2012 at 6:19 PM · Report this
184
I don't like rubbers. (I should call them plastics, because I can't take latex.)

The sexiness of sex is the intimacy. Skin on skin. Intimate on intimate. Down with all barriers!

But sometimes I want to wear one. It's a novelty, like any other sex toy. It's a trip on the Wayback Machine. It's much safer. I don't like the tarpaulin. It weirds me to take my cock out of her cunt and plunge it into her mouth, covered in plastic. My partner doesn't mind, though.

And lambskins do have a sensual feeling unique to them. You sense the extra thickness. But they're no good at blocking viruses.

But in an LTR, if it's rubbers or another way, it's another way.

Posted by Hunter78 on July 25, 2012 at 6:45 PM · Report this
185
Ms Cute - I think you could be right about him, but the problem is that we'll never know because he never got to finish his sentence.

By the same token, and you may have said something like this somewhere along the way, but I call the last boink more or less a wash in terms of fault, as, couldn't one make the case that, assuming he entered the bedroom knowing that they were already broken up, isn't it much the same that she entered the bedroom knowing they were upgraded?

As for the sympathy to one party or the other, I've been listening to Prunella Scales' reading of Emma in the car and have been nearing the end, about which it struck me how clever the writing was because a lot of Emma's least palatable ideas about Harriet come towards the end, just as much once Emma is secured of Mr Knightley as when she Fears the Worst. The people who are down on her make me think of those who think it would have served Emma right if Mr Knightley had been captivated by Harriet after all.

Personally, I'd have enjoyed this week's set of letters much more if I could have given a flying fig for any of the letters, writers or supporting cast therein. Bleah.
Posted by vennominon on July 25, 2012 at 6:46 PM · Report this
186
The first letter writer should get a new gyno who will talk to her about all her options, and consider getting an IUD. Both types of IUDs have a 99.8% success rate and they won't cause hormone-related side effects. And there are lots of other options, and if she can track consistently, fertility awareness method is a great option too (highly recommend the book Taking Charge of Your Fertility).
Posted by IUDs on July 25, 2012 at 7:13 PM · Report this
nocutename 187
@180 (Crinoline): Nicely done! Thank you.

@184 (Hunter78): I confess that, all things being equal (that is, assuming I don't have to worry about pregnancy and if both of us have been tested, are clear, and trust each other and we're in a monogamous or monoagamish relationship), I prefer the spontaneity of condoms, and I hate the taste that the residue leaves if oral sex follows PIV. So yes, I prefer not to use condoms. But if it a is more casual relationship then absolutely condoms. And if there was a legitimate reason that indicated condom use and my partner balked . . . well, I'd have to really re-think that relationship.

@185 (Mr. Ven): I do believe that "Emma" is my favorite (with "Persuasion" as close runner-up, and "Northanger Abbey" getting honorable mention).
I kind of felt for both the people in LITL's letter--it read kind of like a modern-day Shakespearean tragedy.
Posted by nocutename on July 25, 2012 at 7:21 PM · Report this
188
@39/106

Birth control pills (the vast majority of them, Mircette being somewhat of an exception) all have a pill-free/placebo week. That is normally when the woman gets her period. Effectiveness is retained because she goes right back on the pills at the end of the week. Month on/off is a good way to get pregnant and/or drive yourself insane with side effects that never settle.
Posted by Jbobo on July 25, 2012 at 7:41 PM · Report this
189
"it read kind of like a modern-day Shakespearean tragedy."

What, a bunch of peopled died, after some agonizing and heartbreaking misunderstandings, treacheries, and eruptions? Dang, I just thought some guy and gal had a falling out.

I wonder if Savage edited out the iambic pentameter? Bastard.
Posted by Snowguy on July 25, 2012 at 8:00 PM · Report this
nocutename 190
Dear Snowguy: I'm sorry that you have an irony deficiency.
I was speaking tongue in cheek.
Posted by nocutename on July 25, 2012 at 8:16 PM · Report this
191
@Erica - I find this bitterness over condoms bizarre. I can believe that condoms don't feel the same as skin-on-skin, but the idea that sensation trumps the sometimes nasty effects women get from other kinds of bc, or unwanted pregnancy or STIs?

Speaking as someone who is married and uses condoms, I have no intention of leaving my husband, nor do I not trust him or desire to distance myself from him. I can't use other forms of bc, hormonal or inserted. (Yes, I have checked out many, many options. Yes, I have an excellent doctor.) To top it all off (drum roll please) I am sensitive to ejaculate! It's like lighting myself on fire, and not in a good way

We have excellent imaginations, and neither of us have wasted time that could be well-spent with each other whining about condoms.

I have to wonder, as seeker6069 was making his/her observations about divorcing couples, was he/she asking the same questions of an equal number of happily married couples?
Posted by civet on July 25, 2012 at 9:04 PM · Report this
mtnlion 192
@95, okay, I see how that makes sense. But people are condemning her for very different reasons, and they're being super judgmental.

However, I don't agree that she's an emotional abuser for yelling at him, though I do think it was an immature, gut reaction that should have been considered.

Honestly though there are way too many comments for me to keep up with this thread anymore. Farewell and a'dieu.
Posted by mtnlion http://radicalish.wordpress.com on July 25, 2012 at 9:07 PM · Report this
193
@153
"A lot of women here couldn't give a damn for this point of view because--"

Ok, I totally though you were going to say, "because women are the ones who risk getting pregnant." Which would have made sense. Instead:

"--they are not the ones who lose sensation, but the truth is that condomless sex feels so much better to most guys, not just psychologically but also physically. Ladies, how would you feel if you had to put a glove on your clit that inhibited your enjoyment and possibly your ability to orgasm?"

You know what inhibits my enjoyment and possibly my orgasm? Being terrified of getting pregnant or getting an STD while I'm having sex. It sure makes it difficult to be intimate while being paranoid about disastrous consequences AND knowing I'm fucking some dude who doesn't give a shit about me and my health. You know what else inhibits my sexual enjoyment? The ensuing STI, pregnancy, childbirth and 20 years of intensive parenting.

"Most monogamous gay guys I know, including myself, get tested a couple of times over a 6 month period and then don't use condoms any more." Yeah Einstein, you can't get pregnant.

That goes for you too, Old Dude. Sheesh.
Posted by KittyWrangler on July 25, 2012 at 9:21 PM · Report this
nocutename 194
@14/187 (Hunter78 and my own response to him): Aaackk! I left out a two-word phrase, a pretty crucial phrase.
What I said was, "I confess that, all things being equal (that is, assuming I don't have to worry about pregnancy and if both of us have been tested, are clear, and trust each other and we're in a monogamous or monoagamish relationship), I prefer the spontaneity of condoms, and I hate the taste that the residue leaves if oral sex follows PIV. So yes, I prefer not to use condoms. But if it a is more casual relationship then absolutely condoms. "
What I meant to say was: " . . . I prefer the spontaneity of NOT using condoms."

Sorry if I created misunderstanding or seemed to contradict myself. I blame the excruciating headache for keeping me from proofing that!
Posted by nocutename on July 25, 2012 at 9:22 PM · Report this
195
@seeker, EricaP re: condoms and divorce

Actually my first thought was that as the man becomes less appealing to the woman, for whatever reason, she wants to make damn sure she doesn't get pregnant with his child. Especially if a divorce is a possibility.

I'm married and use condoms and have no intention of divorcing my husband.
Posted by KittyWrangler on July 25, 2012 at 9:24 PM · Report this
nocutename 196
@193: (KittyWrangler): Exactly what I would have said had I not already been following up one thread. Thank you.
Posted by nocutename on July 25, 2012 at 9:24 PM · Report this
197
Jinx!
Posted by KittyWrangler on July 25, 2012 at 9:25 PM · Report this
198
Once again a column that started in such a wonderful way- after all what can be more romantic, intimate, and sexy than a woman asking her man to dress up in lingerie for her- is being hijacked by endless advice on contraception and extremely enlightening arguments as to which gender should use them in the first place (hint: its always the opposite camp!).

So here I am, wondering if I’ll ever meet a woman who will want me to wear “a teddy, fishnets, and some heels” for her. Yes, I have them all, and actually I do wear a lovely satin teddy right now. It’s a Farr West cream color satin one with black lace trimming, here’s the link:
http://www.farrwest.com/Vintage-Bloom-Ro…

Since I played soccer earlier this evening (like a man, you should have seen me) my legs hurt and I’ll better forgo the “some heels” for now. But rest assured, I got plenty hot shoes as well as thigh high fishnets and some garter belts to make sure they stay on in all kinds of action. They are all in great condition and are eagerly awaiting you…

In the meantime I’ll better go to bed, promise to dream about you, and hope that some time before I turn 80 we’ll actually meet… just to wake up to the terrible noise of yet another argument as to which gender should use the contraception thingy… and a good night to you too my love…

Posted by fif on July 25, 2012 at 9:56 PM · Report this
199
I have to wonder, as seeker6069 was making his/her observations about divorcing couples, was he/she asking the same questions of an equal number of happily married couples?
I swear to god, I looked up from my reading to see this one on screen, peered over my reading glasses, took the pipe out of my mouth and said aloud, “you do realize how few married couples amble on into lawyers’ offices looking for a divorce?”
Posted by seeker6079 on July 25, 2012 at 10:16 PM · Report this
200
@195 "she wants to make damn sure she doesn't get pregnant with his child." Excellent point.

@198 you probably know this already, but as Dan often says, the easiest path to happy kinky relationships is not to wait for a woman with your kink, but to fall in love with someone who has serious kinks of her own. Over time, being enthusiastically GGG should lead to both of you getting turned on by the other person's kinks, a win/win.
Posted by EricaP on July 25, 2012 at 10:52 PM · Report this
201
@144, 153, 164:
I don't think all women are unsympathetic to guys who don't like condoms. I am not. In fact, I like sex without condoms in a LTR.

But, 144, your example does not apply here. Even in the good old times, there were women who did not tolerate the pill. And you completely ignore them in your demand for sympathy.

Cocksy, you get a pass on this because contraception isn't that big a deal in gay sex, I assume.

EricaP, I would have expected better from you: you shouldn't compare the experience of a man using a condom to the general enjoyment of sex for a woman (and a grim picture you paint!) but to the health issues of a woman who doesn't tolerate the pill but takes it nonetheless because her husband whines about having to use a condom.

@Token straight: Don't you think everyday intimacy goes down the drain if the woman has hormone-induced depression, gains 20 pounds in 2 months, has no sex drive? And she feels dreadful 24/7, not only a few minutes several times a week?

Of course, there are other options for birth control. But this couple doesn't seem to be able to discuss them in a rational way because of the attitude of the husband, according to the letter writer. And too many women have encountered too many men who automatically assume that women are on the pill.
Posted by migrationist on July 25, 2012 at 11:22 PM · Report this
202
I cheated, crawled out of bed, and found Erica P's kind words @200.
Well of course- as I've stated before I'll do anything, ANYTHING, in return.

And this is really my last comment for today, Wednesday, about 11:20 pm in Seattle.

Good night to all you kinksters wherever you are and may your dirtiest dreams, mine included, will all COME true.
Posted by fif on July 25, 2012 at 11:23 PM · Report this
203
Oh, my impatience! I should have read all the comments before posting.

Crinoline, you put it way better @180!
Posted by migrationist on July 25, 2012 at 11:34 PM · Report this
204
I doubt anyone will read this because I am not registered. However, there are more options than IUDs, condoms, pills, and rhythm method. She should look into a diaphragm or cervical cap. I have used a diaphragm successfully for 2 years with spermicide. You can't even taste the spermicide if you put it on carefully and only on the inside. I got mine at planned parenthood and it is made of silicon.
Posted by Abby12345 on July 25, 2012 at 11:41 PM · Report this
205
To tired of pills ( and most women,, really):

Have you looked into getting a diaphragm? I got mine at planned parenthood and have used or for years. It is made of silicon and I use it with some spermicide inside as an extra precaution. (my partner cant taste the spermicode because i put it in neatly.) I can't feel it and there are no hormones to make me crazy and if I ever decide to swear of sex or have kids it is simple for me to get rid of it.

The problem Is that pharmaceutical companies and othe organizations don't make a lot of money off of diaphragms, and they require a base level of intelligence to insert it invade you and make sure it's all snug and in place. So they aren't pushed with advertising and such because buying a $4 tube of spermicide every year or so and replacing the diaphragm for $50 (covered by my particular insurance) just isn't as lucrative as rhe pull or condoms or the shot or the ring or what have you. I also think its a little too "natural" for people sometimes. To each their own, but I just personally can't deal with the pill.
Posted by Abby12345 on July 25, 2012 at 11:57 PM · Report this
206
Ugh sorry about the double (now triple) posting. I just really like to get the word out. I like women to know rhar there are a lot of options out there.
Posted by Abby12345 on July 26, 2012 at 12:01 AM · Report this
Fistique 207
@153, I assure you, women also lose sensation when fucking with a condom, in the sense that the sensation becomes that of boinking a balloon animal. However, it would be nice if men could sack up and wear one, and not complain too much to the people who bear the lion's share of the risks, burdens, and inconveniences of sex while generally receiving the lesser part of its pleasures.
Posted by Fistique on July 26, 2012 at 1:08 AM · Report this
208
@180: Crinoline: Have you considered running for office?
I'd vote for you in a nanosecond!!
Posted by auntie grizelda on July 26, 2012 at 1:58 AM · Report this
209 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
210 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
211
I very much understand what seeker6079 is trying to say about condoms being a barrier to intimacy. It can be. For myself sex without a condom is way more intimate. Yes, it implies trust, but it also makes me feel closer to the person I'm having sex with. (I'm also allergic to latex/rubber/plastics, not severely but enough that I feel for the condoms=uncomfortable crowd, but I still use them unless I'm in a LTR) To request a condom, for non-medical reasons (so to those that keep talking about pregnancy, that's a medical reason), would be a distancing technique. Maybe an unconsciously done technique, but with the same effect. Not all women may equate intimacy the same way, but I can see what was meant by the divorce lawyer in the thread.

Any person, in any profession that sees a specific sub-sect of the population, that sees a repeat behavior with the same outcome, will start to equate it with an "unofficial rule" , just happens. It can be hard to remember that it may not be true for people outside your specified area of expertise.
Posted by wcgecw on July 26, 2012 at 4:56 AM · Report this
212
Quoting 153-- "Ladies, how would you feel if you had to put a glove on your clit that inhibited your enjoyment and possibly your ability to orgasm? Or think of something else you really enjoy and imagine giving that up with your husband forever."

Answer: I get it that my one month on the Pill idea was a bad one, but my idea of shared responsibility for birth control and shared responsibility for pleasure still has merit. Her husband shouldn't have to a wear condom every single time they get intimate. He might wear one some times, and they use some other method others. That other method might be a barrier method like a diaphragm or non-penetrative sex. There's also that vasectomy possibility.

None of these is perfect, and I have nothing against complaining about things we don't like. But when it comes down to it, in every aspect of life, we don't get to choose between perfect and non-perfect, we get to choose between the non-perfect options that strike us as least bad.

A note about diaphragms. Their use gives many women urinary tract infections. When I was younger and used one, I didn't mind stopping so my partner could put it in. I did mind the frequent infections. I never put it together that the diaphragm was a contributing factor. I wish I'd done then what I do now which is to take a low dose of an antibiotic after sex. It means I don't have to wait until I come down with the uti symptoms, go to the doctor, and take a longer course of antibiotics.
Posted by Crinoline on July 26, 2012 at 5:09 AM · Report this
213
@199 - Exactly, my dear. Your sample for your data set is hopelessly skewed towards people in bad relationships. Tell me, do a large number of your clients wear pants? Because that may also be an indicator of a troubled relationship....
Posted by civet on July 26, 2012 at 5:31 AM · Report this
214
Women, we men have our faults--significant, acute, chronic--but whenever you hear a guy say women are batshit crazy, we're not talking about you, we're talking about people like "Left In The Lurch".

Create a set of rules, change mind, break rules and then get pissy when you find out your parter isn't telepathic. What a little drama queen.
Posted by repete on July 26, 2012 at 7:18 AM · Report this
AFinch 215
On the BC question: I've been quite lucky most of my life - age, monogamy - to have led a condom-free existence. I do agree that men have an equal obligation to women - no question - to take care of this. I did have one long-term partner who insisted on barrier methods and that experience leads to two observations:

- I call BS on the guy who told his SO that he could feel her IUD during intercourse...I'm sorry, but even if he thinks he's john holmes, he's not getting past her cervix!. The IUD is well up in the uterus.

- That partner, understanding that condoms were really ruining it for me (and yes, I followed all of Dan's advice about re-programming my dick) to the point of having erection difficulties (loss thereof, and no, there was no underlying physiological issue), got a diaphragm. I did feel the diaphragm, and it kind of got uncomfortable banging into it. I'm not sure if she was not inserting it properly (it was like hitting a hard edge) because looking at the thing in it's case, it wasn't clear how it would feel like a hard edge. Still, hitting that was kind of a dis-incentive to penetration.

- Just as women want some empathy or consideration for the discomfort many have with hormonal BC or other forms, some recognition of just how bad condoms can be would be nice. Any of you who have experienced dental dams for oral might have a clue.

There just definitely need to be better options for men - freezing sperm and getting snipped (which does nothing for STIs) - or using condoms are both just pretty lousy.

I am really lucky to have a partner now who doesn't have issues with hormonal BC and hates condoms as much as I do, so my lucky streak is back on.
Posted by AFinch on July 26, 2012 at 7:38 AM · Report this
216
My question for Tired of Pills is whether her husband is a selfish pill himself at other times. Is this birth control issue the only instance of his being balky and self-regarding? I suspect it's become an issue - and she doesn't want to find another female method - because he is. If not, why is she making a big deal out of the condoms/pill problem instead of trying the other methods? As commenters have noted above, a lot of folks love their diaphram or IUD - I've used both comfortably and happily - and men really do like sex better without a condom. It's one of the great benefits of monogamy, right?
Posted by Lookfar04 on July 26, 2012 at 8:14 AM · Report this
217
Everyone should be aware that the Pill is also known as the Divorce Pill.

HBC tricks a woman's body into thinking it's pregnant and when a woman is pregnant she wants to be around men that share a similar genetic make up (like brothers and fathers) that would protect the baby. When a woman on HBC meets a man, she is drawn to his similar genetic make up. They fall in love, get married and then go off HBC to have children. Then she realizes she cannot stand the smell or taste of him. It's your body's way of not reproducing with a similar gene set that could lead to birth defects.

This article blew me away. I share it with everyone considering how common HBC is:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/…
Posted by albeit on July 26, 2012 at 8:20 AM · Report this
218
Also, over at Jezebel, there is a very spirited discussion about the Pill (pros and cons) and other forms of Birth Control:

http://jezebel.com/5928740/why-do-we-suc…
Posted by albeit on July 26, 2012 at 8:30 AM · Report this
219
To the woman whose husband hates using condoms: I used to be in the same boat as he is. I had a hard time reaching orgasm with a condom on, would sometimes even lose my erection, or have to get my girl to orgasm, then take the condom off and finish with a hand/blowjob.

Then I found out that not all condoms are created equal, and through experimentation found some that work for me. The condoms I use now, and have been using successfully for over a year, are called Trojan Bareskin, and they are awesome. The latex is very thin so they feel practically like there is nothing there, yet they are strong - I've never had one break.

Get your husband some of these along with a high-quality lube (we like KY's Ultragel) and give it a try. Some other suggestions:

- Warm him up for a while with your hands and/or mouth before putting the condom on.
- Make sure to have some lube on the inside of the condom, but not too much.
- Don't start intercourse *immediately* after the condom is on. Give him some time to get used to it and to warm up (condoms are colder than dicks). Masturbate him for a minute or two after the condom is on before starting intercourse (with lube!). We have incorporated this into our foreplay, so my girlfriend does this for me while I play with her clit, so it works for both of us at the same time.

One last thought - I used to have performance anxiety associated with condoms, which created a self-reinforcing cycle. Something like "I know that I have a hard time coming with a condom on, so next time I have one on, I can't come, repeat". Once I discovered the Trojan Bareskin condoms, one thing that helped me break the psychological barrier was masturbating a few times with the condom (remember the lube on the inside!). Once I proved to myself that my dick worked with a condom on without the pressure of a partner present, I was able to use them during intercourse without a problem.
More...
Posted by Condom Advice on July 26, 2012 at 8:44 AM · Report this
220
About Left in the Lurch...Obviously her last reaction of angrily kicking him out was wrong, but nothing else she did was. And he didn't do anything wrong. Telling him she wanted something casual wasn't any more wrong than when a man does it. I can't believe that's even a question here!

About changing her mind. It's ridiculous to say she was wrong for changing her mind. "Love at First Sight" is mostly a myth. Deep feelings need time to develop. You can NOT know right away if you are going to develop those sorts of feelings. When I was single there were plenty of relationships that developed slowly. Usually I wasn't sleeping with the guy until feelings developed, but when you have an ongoing sexual relationship simply declaring you want something casual in the beginning doesn't guarantee that one or both people won't have a change of heart. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as you are honest! All this talk about her change of mind being a deliberate plot to mess with his head just sounds really paranoid. Did none of you ever develop feelings over time for someone you initially weren't all that into?

The first place where the letter writer went wrong is in not declaring what she felt as soon as she realized it, but it's common for fear of rejection to get in the way.

And the guy didn't do anything wrong in not mentioning the other girl because in a casual relationship, it wasn't really her business unless it was going to be the last time. If it was intended as the last time, it probably would have been better to warn her but I'm not sure we know that was what he intended.

It was perfectly understandable, given her change in feelings, for her to be disappointed that he found someone else...she just handled it all wrong. And one bad reaction does not make someone a "bitch" unless the person resorts to physical violence. So unless she slapped him, she just had an initial bad reaction that she later regretted. I'm sure the guy did not suffer irreparable harm by being told to leave one time. People are allowed to make mistakes, and there's no harm in her apologizing and explaining herself. If this guy is a reasonable person (and it sounds like he might be), then he'll probably be understanding about it regardless of who he chooses to date.
More...
Posted by Diagoras on July 26, 2012 at 8:48 AM · Report this
mydriasis 221
Ughhh please.

First of all the whole "tricks into thinking pregnant" thing is a 7th grade simplification of what the birth control pill actually does.

And even if this super suspect theory was accurate, it would only be a problem for the months between going off the pill and GETTING PREGNANT. Use some logic. If this made any sense women would hate their partners and lose all attraction when they get pregnant (because then their smell attraction would switch).

Evo psych is beyond ludicrous sometimes.
Posted by mydriasis on July 26, 2012 at 8:55 AM · Report this
sirIris 222
I think it is interesting to note, in the last letter in this week's column, that the lady did the exact same thing as the gentleman in question: the first time they had sex she told him post-coitus that she wasn't interested in a relationship. She revealed an important piece of information that might have changed the outcome of the encounter after the encounter had already taken place. Putting myself in the gentleman's shoes I probably would have liked that information before I had sex. I also would probably still have sex regardless of the answer but at least I would know the parameters of the sex/relationship frame.
Posted by sirIris http://www.siriris.com on July 26, 2012 at 9:08 AM · Report this
mydriasis 223
@222

Haha, wow, interesting.
I've always felt like it was pretty standard practice to have that conversation after sex (assuming this is a situation where you're having sex with the person quickly after meeting).
Posted by mydriasis on July 26, 2012 at 9:24 AM · Report this
224
For the woman whose jerk husband thinks she should bear all the responsibility for birth control, and her health (and sex drive) be damned: Tell your husband to go bank some sperm and get a vasectomy. No condoms, no pills, and you can still get pregnant if you guys decide you want a kid. Last I looked, the price of banking sperm was on a par with the price of birth control pills.

I doubt he'll do it, because apparently he's the kind of selfish jackass who only cares about himself. Still, I'd make the suggestion. Then I'd tell him that whatever he chose, I wasn't taking the pill anymore, period, and if he didn't like it he didn't have to have sex with me.
Posted by DanaC on July 26, 2012 at 9:55 AM · Report this
225
For the woman whose jerk husband thinks she should bear all the responsibility for birth control, and her health (and sex drive) be damned: Tell your husband to go bank some sperm and get a vasectomy. No condoms, no pills, and you can still get pregnant if you guys decide you want a kid. Last I looked, the price of banking sperm was on a par with the price of birth control pills.

I doubt he'll do it, because apparently he's the kind of selfish jackass who only cares about himself. Still, I'd make the suggestion. Then I'd tell him that whatever he chose, I wasn't taking the pill anymore, period, and if he didn't like it he didn't have to have sex with me.

Then I'd start looking for a man who took my sexual pleasure as seriously as his own.
Posted by DanaC on July 26, 2012 at 9:56 AM · Report this
226
@220: Yes, exactly. I think some people were thinking I was condemning her for wanting to keep it casual in the first place. No, that's fine; keeping it casual is a perfectly acceptable way to run a relationship. I was only noting that it sucks to be told that when you are the one whose feelings are running higher, but he apparently handled it well.

However the moment he mentioned another girl to her, she handled it very poorly. I thought that -- specifically, not letting him talk, and kicking him out -- was a) a rude way to treat him, and b) a case of dish-it-out-but-can't-take-it.

I agree that one bitchy incident does not a bitch make, but one can still acknowledge that one was being a bitch in that moment. I further suggest that one _should_ do that. It will be better received than an explanation that is all about explaining and justifying what was going through one's own head, and not about apologizing. If you don't demonstrate an understanding of how your behavior was hurtful to the other person, they have every reason to think that you are going to behave the exact same way the next time a similar situation comes up.
Posted by avast2006 on July 26, 2012 at 10:13 AM · Report this
227
@217: No.

According to the study results (which are based on what T-shirt smells you like, not actual actions like, you know, the DIVORCE featured so prominently in the subtitle) then all women should be attracted to men with markers of different immune systems up until they get pregnant by those men, at which point they stop being attracted to them and start only wanting to be near their fathers and brothers and cousins. If we all lived in matrilineal tribes this might make sense, but that is not how humans, even remote tribes, tend to organize themselves. There is... dun Dun DUN!... more to it. Like all those other species whose young require a long investment, we tend to pair bond and keep that dad guy with the funny immune system smells around.

One thing that stood out in flaming yard-high letters was the missing follow-up study, which would--this is obvious, right?--involve women who were actually pregnant, and see if they now rejected their husband's T-shirts in favor of their brothers'. I am dead certain I am not the only woman in this thread who went off HBC to have children and did not wind up divorcing my husband.

I am completely with Mydriasis on evo psych and it's just so stories.
Posted by IPJ on July 26, 2012 at 10:16 AM · Report this
228
I, too, am surprised she didn't consider the diaphragm. That said, her husband is a selfish jerk for his anti-condom stance. News flash, buddy: most of us don't like them. You know what I like even less than condoms? Unplanned pregnancies.
Posted by truthspeaker on July 26, 2012 at 10:19 AM · Report this
229
Two other thoughts:

1) I used a diaphragm for years. I put it in dry, and put a filled spermicide applicator on the nightstand. At the crucial moment it was a matter of half-a-second to use it, but up till then, no taste of spermicide. Too, a dry diaphragm is easier to handle.

2) Do they still make lambskin condoms? WAY more sensitive than latex. Not as viable for disease prevention, but that's not supposed to be an issue here.
Posted by DanaC on July 26, 2012 at 10:19 AM · Report this
230
@222 and others: I don't know what "standard practice" is in these matters, but I suspect that any conversation that carries a subtext of "I don't want to (something relationship-related/emotionally charged)" is probably not best done immediately after sex, when everyone is all charged up with oxytocin etc. and feeling simultaneously intimate and vulnerable.
Posted by avast2006 on July 26, 2012 at 10:28 AM · Report this
mydriasis 231
@avast

I think it's somewhat context dependent. If you take someone home from a party you're probably not assuming they're going to be your soulmate. They might be but making any assumptions about that person's seriousness seems a bit entitled to me.

The other thing is, the LW said the guy told HER right after sex that he was looking for a relationship which seems pretty clingy in my books. But that's me, I tend to not get all 'intimate and vulnerable' just because I had sex with someone.

My point is, if you're in a hookup-type situation, I figure the default assumption is "this is casual" unless someone says otherwise or they develop otherwise. If he felt like bringing it up when he was all intimate and vulnerable then it's not really her fault for being honest.
Posted by mydriasis on July 26, 2012 at 10:42 AM · Report this
232
"Dear Snowguy: I'm sorry that you have an irony deficiency."

And I am sorry the mote in my eye is bothering you so much. I would assume the beam in your own would be of greater concern to you, however.

More seriously, your posts today reminded me to avoid mimicking except in obvious jest the near universal debate techniques of ad hominem ("If you do not agree, you have issues!") or apologizing for what the claimed faults of people with opposing views ("I am sorry you are a slobbering fool..."). All of us can slip into those traps.

It makes us look bad when we do.
Posted by Snowguy on July 26, 2012 at 10:52 AM · Report this
233
@219 great advice!

@221/227 Yes! as the article says: "No one has yet collected data to indicate whether the pill has created a large-scale problem in compatibility."
Posted by EricaP on July 26, 2012 at 10:53 AM · Report this
AFinch 234
@231 - you know, maybe it's just me and all, but seriously: I generally tell someone before we get to the having sex stage whether or not I want a relationship or just something casual. If telling someone what you're looking for after sex is clingy, then what the hell is telling someone before?

I don't think "I'm looking for a relationship" is the same as "I wuv youw"...and I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that you're not pressuring or rushing things with someone who just willingly had sex with you by talking to them about desired relationship status.

Maybe now I know why barrier methods are so important to you! ....Or maybe I am just an old fogey.
Posted by AFinch on July 26, 2012 at 11:02 AM · Report this
sirIris 235
@mydriasis I'm inferring from the letter that this was not a one night stand situation and there were several opportunities to discuss the parameters of the relationship before sex. She waited until after they had sex to let him know she was not interested in a serious relationship. If the tables were turned and a man did that with a woman I have a feeling many more people would be crying "foul!" If the situation was a hot-sweaty-one-night-only-I-just-met-you-and-can't-wait-to-fuck-you event of course there would be no need for that type of conversation beforehand. In general, especially if multiple meet-ups are involved, I think it's smart to find out where both parties stand before body fluids are exchanged and too many feelings can get hurt.
Posted by sirIris http://www.siriris.com on July 26, 2012 at 11:08 AM · Report this
236
I can't use hormonal birth control either, and was told by one doctor that I wouldn't be able to get a non-hormonal IUD because I wasn't married. Luckily, there's this wonderful organisation called planned parenthood, who have fabulous doctors that are a little less archaic in their outlook on women's sexual health and I have (happily) had a copper IUD for the last 4 years, since I was 27. It works wonderfully well, no overt weight gain such as with hormones, or any of the other nasty side effects. Only side effect is slightly increased period pain and slightly heavier, bit this settled down a lot after 6 months. I'm not sure why your doctor would say it's not right for you, unless you're a tony lady or have some weird shaped vagina (and even then, they can still be used in most cases). I would suggest a definite second opinion from a more woman friendly doctor.
Posted by sheepgirl44 on July 26, 2012 at 11:11 AM · Report this
237
Once again a column that started in such a wonderful way- after all what can be more romantic, intimate, and sexy than a woman asking her man to dress up in lingerie for her- is being hijacked by endless advice on contraception and extremely enlightening arguments as to which gender should use them in the first place (hint: its always the opposite camp!).
Posted by fif on July 26, 2012 at 11:16 AM · Report this
238
Crinoline@212: I wish I'd done then what I do now which is to take a low dose of an antibiotic after sex.

Wait, is there really an antibiotic that works that way? I've always been told that stopping antibiotics before you finish the complete prescription is a GREAT way to create drug-resistant bacteria. What antibiotic can be just taken here and there, no worries? And doesn't it mess up your gut flora?

Oh, and of course for someone who IS on the pill this would be terrible advice, as antibiotics can make the pill ineffective.
Posted by Eirene on July 26, 2012 at 12:42 PM · Report this
239
I doubt the letter writer will read this comment way down here, but I see no one else has suggested this and I know a lot of people don't know about it. There is a birth control option available at Walgreen's called VCF - Vaginal Contraceptive Film. It's on the shelf with the condoms. Insert it 20 minutes before go-time and voila. No smell, no mess. It's a miracle. Been using it for 7 years and no accidents.
Posted by Crabbey on July 26, 2012 at 1:05 PM · Report this
240
238- Eirene--

Nitrofurantoin or Macrodantin. (I'm not sure of the spellings, but you have enough to google.) I take one pill within 24 hours of intercourse for the suppression of urinary tract infections. Those are the instructions on the prescription bottle, and I take it as prescribed. I'm not on birth control pills, and a doctor would take that into account when prescribing.
Posted by Crinoline on July 26, 2012 at 1:07 PM · Report this
241
I have had the same life long issue. Added to that an extremely tipped uterus which means no diaphragm and no cervical cap. Men have been so spoiled by the pill, they just can't seem to believe there are women who can't use it. We have a long way to go with birth control.
Posted by hissyfit on July 26, 2012 at 1:19 PM · Report this
242
Thanks, Crinoline. It looks as though nitrofurantoin has a much lower rate of resistance than other antibiotics and also doesn't interfere with the effectiveness of oral contraceptives (though http://reference.medscape.com/drug-inter… shows that there's some concern about interactions).
Posted by Eirene on July 26, 2012 at 1:31 PM · Report this
243
@215 AFinch, It is possible for a partner to feel an IUD. It has a string for removing it, and the string typically hangs outside the cervix (it is possible for the IUD to shift and the strings to get pulled inside). My husband can sometimes feel the string on my IUD, but it doesn't cause rope burn or anything, so it isn't a problem:)If it is a problem, the woman's gynecologist has a special pair of scissors that can be used to trim the string.
Posted by tachycardia on July 26, 2012 at 2:10 PM · Report this
244
The Mirena IUD has a very, very small amount of progestin, which seems to work very well for women who have issues taking any of the pills containing estrogen. Get a new doctor.
Posted by Penguin1607 on July 26, 2012 at 2:10 PM · Report this
245
@236 Only side effect is slightly increased period pain and slightly heavier, bit this settled down a lot after 6 months. I'm not sure why your doctor would say it's not right for you,

Really? Because you've just named two good reasons - this woman may already have painful or heavy periods that risking making worse with an IUD isn't an option. Other medical reasons have been mentioned upthread. IUDs are great for some women, but they are unsuitable for others. Her doctor isn't necessarily not-woman-friendly, just more aware of her medical history than random internet commenters.
Posted by Anotheranon on July 26, 2012 at 2:17 PM · Report this
AFinch 246
@243 - thanks for the info...amazing. Heh...my SO is a surgeon and I am continually amazed by the special-purpose tools!
Posted by AFinch on July 26, 2012 at 2:29 PM · Report this
247
Myd, Ipj,

The double blind t-shirt study simply showed that women in their fertile phase were more attracted to the odors of genetically-dissimilar men.

There's no explanation for this phenomenon outside an evo-psyche context.
Posted by Hunter78 on July 26, 2012 at 2:35 PM · Report this
mydriasis 248
@mydriasis I'm inferring from the letter that this was not a one night stand situation and there were several opportunities to discuss the parameters of the relationship before sex.

I wasn't working under that assumption.

She waited until after they had sex to let him know she was not interested in a serious relationship.

Actually they both did. Why is it her responsibility?

If the tables were turned and a man did that with a woman I have a feeling many more people would be crying "foul!"

Not me.

If the situation was a hot-sweaty-one-night-only-I-just-met-you-and-can't-wait-to-fuck-you event of course there would be no need for that type of conversation beforehand. In general, especially if multiple meet-ups are involved, I think it's smart to find out where both parties stand before body fluids are exchanged and too many feelings can get hurt.

To be honest I think this is the responsibility of any person who worries that his or her feelings might get hurt. I have (at times) gone out of my way to point out "look, this is just fun" but not always beforehand. I assume if someone is the type of person who will be hurt by that shouldn't having sex without checking first.

Now onto Finch

you know, maybe it's just me and all, but seriously: I generally tell someone before we get to the having sex stage whether or not I want a relationship or just something casual.

That's your right and if it makes sense for you, go for it. But that's not the same as insisting that everyone must do it or else they're mean and wrong.

If telling someone what you're looking for after sex is clingy, then what the hell is telling someone before?

My comment was actually about saying it RIGHT after having sex. It's a little unnerving. As if to say "okay now that we've had sex, we need to talk about the future"

I don't think "I'm looking for a relationship" is the same as "I wuv youw"...and I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that you're not pressuring or rushing things with someone who just willingly had sex with you by talking to them about desired relationship status.

Again, it's about the timing.

Maybe now I know why barrier methods are so important to you! ....Or maybe I am just an old fogey.

Are you enough of an old fogey to not know what "slut shaming" means?
More...
Posted by mydriasis on July 26, 2012 at 2:43 PM · Report this
mydriasis 249
Ahh Hunter, using creationisms favourite argument! Nice.

Also being too dense and defensive of the pop pseudoscience he loves so much to even come close to grasping the point that we both made (which, to simplify is not that the findings were wrong, but that the expected behaviours and the suggestion that being off the pill would be better is wrong).

Oh by the way, I just wanted to bring up (and laugh again) at your suggestion that not believing in evo-psych* means not understanding evolution or psych (two fields I have studied a reasonable amount of - and no, reading psychology today does not count as studying psychology, hunter). Especially when any prof I ever had who taught a evolution-informed field (molecular biology, ecology, physiology, neuro, etc) either ignored or laughed at what you call evo psych and the same is true of all my psych profs. Oh well, go on, pretend science is on your side. I'll sit here with my handy bingo card.

http://www.boingboing.net/2010/04/07/evo…

*Or to be clearer, some halfwit sensationalist science writer's interpretation of an evo psych paper.
Posted by mydriasis on July 26, 2012 at 3:01 PM · Report this
mydriasis 250
Oh, and since you're not the brightest penny in the fountain, here's the creationist argument you used.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

Or if you prefer... http://bladeordie.com/wp-content/uploads…
Posted by mydriasis on July 26, 2012 at 3:03 PM · Report this
251
@247 no explanation? It was only a few dozen people; random chance is a possible explanation, combined with the fact that tons of stupid studies are done every year and we only hear about the ones that have an "interesting" result.
Posted by EricaP on July 26, 2012 at 3:13 PM · Report this
252
one of my unrealized fantasies is to find a big, very manly man who is into xdressing. i want him to to look perfectly ridiculous in his getup, w/wig, makeup, the whole 9 yards. think john cleese dressed as a nurse. mmmmmm.
Posted by ellarosa on July 26, 2012 at 3:24 PM · Report this
253
242 Eirene-- Here's the way to explain it to the typical patient. For a full blown infection, you take a full course of antibiotics to make sure you kill all the bacteria and thus prevent the creation of resistant strains. For the situation where an infection is likely or where the infection is mild, you take a small dose which effectively kills all present bacteria and therefore works the same way. You're still making sure that all the bacteria are dead and preventing resistant strains.

Some women even more prone to infections than I take it daily. I only take it after intercourse. I was infection free for many years after switching from a diaphragm to condoms. Then, with peri-menopause, I started getting infections again. The explanation given was that vaginal walls thin with normal aging thus creating the right environment for bacteria to enter the urinary tract and travel up to the bladder. Drinking blueberry juice, cranberry juice, and tons of water was the first line of defence, but when that stopped working, the antibiotic was the second.
Posted by Crinoline on July 26, 2012 at 3:37 PM · Report this
254
@247: What the study found is that people are attracted to those with different immune systems: my daughter's biology class covered this. (I then learned that there are actually dating sites using this tool, information she did not thank me for conveying.) This makes perfect evolutionary sense, given only one possible way to choose (scent) it is interesting that we cue in to some genetic diversity. As with glancing at pictures of attractive people, we are hard-wired to like certain things, but in real life those are only one factor among many. (Our eventual mate probably falls in the general range we find attractive, but we rejected many more physically perfect models for such things as being a jerk.)

What the PT article is concluding from the details of this study is way out in Just So field, ignoring the most obvious follow up studies one would expect, or regular human interaction (women do not leave their husbands and return to their brothers as soon as they become pregnant) or the fact--tons of women could have told them this--that being on the pill and being pregnant are not hormonally indistinguishable states. (In only one do you cry at commercials.)
Posted by IPJ on July 26, 2012 at 4:10 PM · Report this
255
The column needs editing. Too many posts dull the appetite, and reduce the communication.

Posted by Hunter78 on July 26, 2012 at 4:15 PM · Report this
256
@252 ellarosa- An extremely refreshing break from the contraception debate and gender wars. And you can find him much easier than you may think.
Posted by fif on July 26, 2012 at 4:16 PM · Report this
257
one word to "Married to a pill" - DIAPHRAGAM. It saved my sex life, bigtime. It's pretty annoying at first but once you get used to it, nbd (you can insert it in advance which makes it less crappy than a condom). I stopped using it when trying to conceive, and after finding out that it's pretty tough to conceive if you're not ovulating, she can also consider the super old-fashioned yet sexier-than-diaphragm rhythm method.
Posted by jennyv on July 26, 2012 at 4:30 PM · Report this
258
John Cleese? Tall, very thin. Very manly man? I like him, but no.

Posted by Hunter78 on July 26, 2012 at 4:36 PM · Report this
259
John Cleese is, or used to be, actually pretty buff (though I think he worked out a lot for his part in A Fish Called Wanda). I can see calling him a manly man.
Posted by Eirene on July 26, 2012 at 4:44 PM · Report this
260
To Tired of Pills, there are other forms of birth control. I also had troubles with hormonal pills, and I don't like the idea of hormones in my body. You could try a lighter dose, but I would recommend an IUD, either hormonal or not. You can get it covered at Planned Parenthood if you can't afford it. I did this, and while my periods sucked for a good few months (I opted for non-hormonal), I love not having my hormones being fucked with. You should definitely give it a shot...
Posted by sambetty on July 26, 2012 at 4:52 PM · Report this
261
To Tired of Pills: I've had troubles with hormonal pills as well, and there are other options. You should definitely try out an IUD, either hormonal or non-hormonal, and you can most likely get it covered at Planned Parenthood if you can't afford it. I have the Paraguard and after 6 years of being on the pill it's a very nice relief to not have my hormones being fucked with. The periods will suck for some months but eventually they will get better. Good luck!
Posted by sambetty on July 26, 2012 at 4:56 PM · Report this
262
Ipj,

I appreciate the correction on the differing immune systems. But your counter arguments are weak.

As with glancing at pictures of attractive people, we are hard-wired to like certain things,

Ok, why?

women do not leave their husbands and return to their brothers

Too shallow. She's not cheaply giving up this special relationship she worked so hard for. One she wanted so much.

-that being on the pill and being pregnant are not hormonally indistinguishable states.

Stop it! You are supporting the EP position. Why is all this important?
Posted by Hunter78 on July 26, 2012 at 4:56 PM · Report this
263
I was thinking more Fawlty Towers.
Posted by Hunter78 on July 26, 2012 at 4:59 PM · Report this
264
Let me play a game and answer these without reading Dan's answers: I will be sure to piss off all the female readers.

1. On the woman with the degrading cross-dressing fantasy: Any man who is not man enough to dress up in ANY way that turns on her woman is not a man. I would stop at eating shit but even licking a clean butthole or going down after a big cream pie is not to much to ask. Sex is dirty and filthy- but only if done right. However I wonder if this is really a turn on for her or if she just gets her kicks out of embarassing and laughing at her men. It is her call.

2. On the far far to long suffering pill taker: Three Words- I U D. There are a bunch of types and I would get a second opinon. Maybe your shape makes it tough to insert (or whatever) but your long, patient history justifies another look at this option. It is very sweet how you care so much about your husband. Condoms absolutely feel different for men and so many women take a 'so what it doesn't bother me' attitude about this issue.

3. On the 2 stiffies in one condom being safe? Unless the dicks are real small or they have a special double dick condom I would say this is not covered by the manufacturers warranty. Safe is a relative term- stuffing 2 dicks up your Ass, for example is not exactly easy living.

4. On the easy woman who can't make up her mind: He thought he had a FOB relationship and as a friend you would be happy that he may have found 'the one.' Yes you overreacted. Yes, I would contact him again and lay it on the line. Yes I know- telling a man what you actually want is not genetically programed into women but you can do it. He will probably want to pursue the other woman so be gracious and most of all BE A FRIEND and if you are patient and very casual (I would not contact him more than once each 90 days or so by phone and 30 days by e-mail/text) and chances are you will get him on the rebound at his most vulnerable. Good luck and happy hunting!
More...
Posted by Professor on July 26, 2012 at 7:56 PM · Report this
265
It's all about the timing, is it? I'm having a little difficulty buying that scenario.

"When we first had sex, I told him I wanted to keep it casual. (Which means, of course, that I wanted to be able to keep fucking other people.) He seemed to accept that well enough. But then one day we had sex, and RIGHT AFTERWARDS he mentioned this other girl. I would have been cool with that...but god, his TIMING was just so atrocious, I dumped him on the spot."

Yeah, right. The timing was the problem. Not the other girl, the timing. Sure it was.

If awkward timing honestly is a dumpable offense, in that case I don't believe you actually had developed feelings for him. That's basically saying, what you were about to discuss was okay in my book, but you did it with such lame _style_.... Serious cognitive dissonance there.

Sorry, not buying it. What happened is that he developed feelings for you in the run-up to the first sexual encounter (and yes, he had the bad grace to open up to you about them in the afterglow; some people around here would call that being clingy) but you told him no, you wanted to keep fucking other people, which he apparently accepted reasonably graciously. Then in the ensuing month, you developed feelings for him, but when it was his turn to mention another girl, you freaked so hard you wouldn't even let him explain what he was thinking, and tossed him out on his ear.

Now you are admitting that you want him back, which is to say, you are admitting to yourself that you overreacted, because the only way you would want him back is if it wasn't actually a dumpable offense. So if you really want him back, it's time to eat a little crow regarding your tantrum.
Posted by avast2006 on July 26, 2012 at 8:01 PM · Report this
266
Read all of these exceptional posts. Yes vascectomy should be on the table. There are several methods- including lamb condoms that should be tried.

#99 and 98 yep- it is not so much the condom issue becoming "the barrier" they are putting up between them and this leading to the divorce- but rather the woman deciding she doesn't care about her husband any more and that SHE IS GOING TO WIN the power struggle all the feminists are talking about here. Condom use is a big issue with the femenists because it is ALL about power. Men hate them. If the woman cares about her man she will try to accomadate. If not, she will parrot the feminist drivel we have seen written on the this blog. Flame on!
Posted by Professor on July 26, 2012 at 8:32 PM · Report this
267
I'm having trouble picturing the gay movie scenario...who was where?
Posted by Curiouser_George on July 26, 2012 at 8:55 PM · Report this
268
@215, and others, I am sympathetic to the fact that condoms decrease sexual pleasure. Would it help, in bed, if I expressed regret that we have to use them? I tend to act pragmatic about them, but would be happy to show more sympathy if that will go over well.
Posted by EricaP on July 26, 2012 at 11:10 PM · Report this
269
@266:
"If the woman cares about her man she will try to accomadate."

If the man cares about his woman, wouldn't he try to accommodate her and to search for a birth control solution WITH her, instead of leaving her to battle weight gain, period pains and depression on her own?

All TOP's husband seems to do is to say "No condoms." That's not constructive, neither is it caring.
Posted by migrationist on July 27, 2012 at 4:43 AM · Report this
AFinch 270
@248 - I'm quite well aware of what slut shaming is and I'm not slut shaming you.

I think you're unduly harsh and judgemental of other people to suggest they're clingy by bringing up the topic of desired relationship status in the post-orgasmic bliss. While I take your point about timing - and I'd say tone of delivery counts as much - I have a very difficult time - outside of say, a play-party (where in my experience expectations are very clear by the very nature of the setting) - imagining a scenario in which that's inappropriate or creepy.

I don't think there's anything wrong with getting your freak on whenever you feel like it - with whomever you like (consenting adult) - I certainly don't think you have to have a "relationship" (romantic commitment) with them, or really, even like them or want to have a conversation with them.

However, if you feel ('clingy' is your word) uncomfortable when someone you've just screwed talks to you about wanting more or clarifying the relationship status, then I think you may be the person who is having an issue with sport-fucking. I believe anyone who is willing to share an orgasm with someone else should be willing to share a few words of communication without accusing the other person of being emotionally clingy.

The archetype holds that it's typically women who can't separate sex and romance, and while I think that archetype is pretty bogus, what's sauce for the Gander is sauce for the Goose: if you get physically intimate with people you have to be willing to treat their feelings with respect (not accuse them of being clingy). Pointing that out is not slut-shaming you; it is shaming you to behave like a human being.
Posted by AFinch on July 27, 2012 at 5:23 AM · Report this
GymGoth 271
#59: But to my mind, the only reason he'd withold that info is because he thinks it will effect he in a specific way (despite her saying it's casual). Which is manipulative.

Did you ever think that he wasn't 100% sure and wanted to spend the entire evening with her before making a final decision? Bottom line is that casual is casual. It can end at any time and unlike a committed relationship either party has no right to get upset at the other person for ending it.

Posted by GymGoth on July 27, 2012 at 6:03 AM · Report this
272
If this guy would take a woman back who had pulled that stuff then he is just as crazy as she is.

No way in hell I would ever give that crazy bitch the time of day again.
Posted by thatbitchisCRAZY on July 27, 2012 at 6:11 AM · Report this
mydriasis 273
@AFinch

Um, actually I didn't say anything about what I would do or have done in that kind of situation, I talked about my feelings. You do know there's a difference between feelings and actions.

If I meet someone, hang out with them a little and we have sex and then immediately afterwards get a "where is this going" talk? I will find that to be poor timing for the reasons I've said above.

But that doesn't mean I'm not "willing to share a few words of communication without accusing the other person of being emotionally clingy". I've been in this scenario (several times actually) and though I do find it to be offputting I'm not rude and I don't call them clingy. I politely and clearly tell them where I'm coming from and that a relationship is not on the table for them.

So yeah, I am a human being and do act like one, but thanks for calling it into question.

There's a huge difference between saying "I think x behaviour is inappropriate" and saying "I think x behaviour is inappropriate and therefore I would be a bitch to anyone who does it", I really appreciate the fact that you jumped right to the second one without any evidence for it.

"if you get physically intimate with people you have to be willing to treat their feelings with respect (not accuse them of being clingy)."

Again you can't seperate actions and feelings. First of all, I do treat their feelings with respect, but that doesn't mean that when we're talking about a theoretical person doing a theoretical behaviour that I can't express my feelings about how that behaviour comes off.

" Pointing that out is not slut-shaming you; it is shaming you to behave like a human being."

I'm sorry, what was this then? "Maybe now I know why barrier methods are so important to you!"
More...
Posted by mydriasis on July 27, 2012 at 7:12 AM · Report this
274
He might not like to use condoms because he hasn't found the right fit yet.
Posted by Rawkcuf on July 27, 2012 at 7:34 AM · Report this
275
Dan, you give fabulous relationship advice, but kinda shitty advice on a lady's birth control options.
1.) She should talk to a different OB or midwife about getting a copper, non-hormonal IUD. A lot of OBs say that IUDs aren't appropriate for women who haven't given birth, but that's not accurate.
2.) She could consider using a diaphragm + spermicide. The failure rates are a bit high for my liking, but diaphragm + spermicide + withdrawal is better.
3.) She could consider natural family planning (which isn't the same as counting the days of your cycle on your rosary). It's a bit of a pain in the ass, because it involves charting your daily temperature and cervical mucus, but at least there's an app for that now.
4.) You can support the development of Vasalgel, a seriously effective, non-hormonal, inexpensive, reversible birth control method *for men*. They've just started clinical testing in America. http://www.gizmag.com/risug-male-contrac…
Posted by unaragazza on July 27, 2012 at 7:49 AM · Report this
276
It sounds like she has a lazy doc - there are probably other types of contraceptives that would work for her. Most women who can't take the traditional birth control bill (like myself) are reacting to the estrogen, leaving progestrone-based options (like Mirena or Implanon) as a viable option. But her doctor is the least of her problems. Her husband is acting like a selfish douche. Really, you would rather have your wife bloated and miserable than wear a condom? If he continues to be so intractable, she should DTMFA.
Posted by Nikki81 on July 27, 2012 at 7:51 AM · Report this
AFinch 277
@273 I'm sorry, what was this then? "Maybe now I know why barrier methods are so important to you!"

A suggestion that you have ambivalence about intimacy.

I have plenty of experience with these situations too and you came off sounding like an oblivious Frat Dude to me; let's go back to the original line, shall we?

The other thing is, the LW said the guy told HER right after sex that he was looking for a relationship which seems pretty clingy in my books. But that's me, I tend to not get all 'intimate and vulnerable' just because I had sex with someone.

Sounds like you don't get too intimate at all...and that's what I was taking a dig at.

I only disagreed with you that it is not clingy behavior to tell the person you just finished having sex with that you are looking for a relationship - and let me add: the guy accepted her answer.

I've got no issues with sport-fucking - whether practiced by women or men - I find women who are in touch with their physical sexuality to be a real turn on and I give them the same respect I give my own man-slut-self.

I should have put a wink/smiley on the original reply, because I really wasn't trying to antagonize you, but I obviously did, and I can see how my comment would have - so my apologies. You my dear have an itchy trigger finger, though, so let's just drop this.
Posted by AFinch on July 27, 2012 at 8:41 AM · Report this
mydriasis 278
"Sounds like you don't get too intimate at all"

Sounds like you like to make a hell of a lot of assumptions and judgements based on very little.

I quite enjoy intimacy, and am most happy in a LTR. I'm simply selective about who I become emotionally intimate with.

Anyway, you can consider it dropped. And in the future, feel free to keep your assessments of me to yourself.
Posted by mydriasis on July 27, 2012 at 9:33 AM · Report this
279
TOP, I had the same problem with the pill. I simply could not find one that worked for me --ever. Now I have an IUD without any hormonal component. I also could not use a diaphragm because of my shape and it seems that they no longer make cervical caps - which were quite useful... Ultimately, I am very happy with the IUD although the process of insertion is not comfortable... but over quickly.

On another topic, my x-husband was the same way. He hated condoms and pretty much refused to use them and in the end I was in the same situation as you. So I will give you some advice that I wish I had at the time this first came up... very early in my marriage btw. Take a good hard look at your husband. Ask yourself where else his behaviour is similar... what kind of pre-existing expectations does he have towards you because you're his wife, or a woman or within his family structure. Is he controlling in other ways? Does he expect you to support him and his ideas at the expensive of your own... and if not, is his support real or passive-aggressive...

I'm not saying that your husband is any thing like any of these questions... but I sure wish I had taken a closer look at mine ... at the time the birth control question came up - because all the other things came clearer with time.

Good luck to you!
Posted by TOP like situation... on July 27, 2012 at 10:07 AM · Report this
280
How about a vasectomy?
Posted by uberdude on July 27, 2012 at 10:23 AM · Report this
281
She could use an IUD! there are non-hormonal ones, although they sometimes make your period heavier too
Posted by carlys123 on July 27, 2012 at 1:16 PM · Report this
282
she should use an IUD! There are non-hormonal ones, but sometimes they make your period heavier also
Posted by carlys123 on July 27, 2012 at 1:22 PM · Report this
283
Condom use is a big issue with the femenists because it is ALL about power. Men hate them. If the woman cares about her man she will try to accomadate.

Condoms can make sex less pleasurable for guys. Other methods of birth control can make a woman miserable - not just during sex but all the goddamn time.

Fucking right when I insist on condoms it's a feminist thing. I don't want to live in a world where a guy's interest in getting off to his exact satisfaction trumps my right to be healthy.
Posted by perversecowgirl on July 27, 2012 at 1:45 PM · Report this
284
I have no particular opinion about whether LITL deserved her tantrum, but if I was her boy toy I wouldn't be fucking her knowing that my heart was with someone else.
Posted by DaveG on July 27, 2012 at 1:52 PM · Report this
285
@177 I'm going through that right now. I have checked out in the sense that I'm not committed to the relationship anymore. I'm not in love with him, but I'm not sleeping with anyone else and I don't think he is either. I don't insist on them all the time, though, probably about 50%
Posted by woo hoo on July 27, 2012 at 2:42 PM · Report this
286
Pgirl,

You should insist on condoms in casual sex-- unless you like to walk on the wild side.

In an ltr you two should find alternate ways.
Posted by Hunter78 on July 27, 2012 at 2:51 PM · Report this
287
Finch,

How dare you openly assess our Shirley Temple?
Posted by Hunter78 on July 27, 2012 at 3:00 PM · Report this
288
And, let me throw this one out there. Sex can feel different for a woman when a condom is involved as well. Maybe that isn't the case for all women, and I'm sure it's not to the same extent, but for me there is a drastic difference in how sex feels with and without condoms.
This woman has obviously attempted multiple forms of birth control to accommodate the fact that he doesn't like using condoms. Asking him to accommodate her health and mental well being isn't a "power" issue. If she simply refused to consider birth control, then I could see that point.
Posted by KateRose on July 27, 2012 at 7:30 PM · Report this
289
In an ltr you two should find alternate ways.

You know nothing about my relationship so it's laughable of you to try to tell me how to conduct it.
Posted by perversecowgirl on July 27, 2012 at 7:56 PM · Report this
290
Woohoo@285, thanks for writing in. Does he really hate them? What makes you decide to ask for them on a given night?
Posted by EricaP on July 27, 2012 at 8:07 PM · Report this
291
@Hunter:
"In an ltr you two should find alternate ways."

The operative words here are "you two". Not only the woman!
Posted by migrationist on July 27, 2012 at 10:05 PM · Report this
sissoucat 292
I agree with KateRose @288. Sex does feel different for me with a condom on ; both partners have less pleasure.

But destroying one's health is on an entire different level with getting off - like Perversecowgirl said.

If husband wants to experience the unaldulterated joy of no condom, his hand can provide, or he can get a snip.
Posted by sissoucat on July 27, 2012 at 10:53 PM · Report this
shurenka 293
Holy shitstorm of comments!

And once again, I'm reminded that people who use "bitch" usually mean, "woman capable of expressing an opinion (often one unpleasant to men)".

As much as LITL's reaction was inappropriate, I do think it takes some sort of malice or sadism, to wait to tell someone until after sex that you're seeing someone else. Or at least some sort of cluelessness, since most people (I think) would feel like they'd just been used for one last fuck which maybe they wouldn't have agreed to if they'd known they'd already been replaced in their fuck buddy's affections. However, as Dan points out, LITL's partner might have been about to say "But I really like you, and would still want to date."

Either way, Dan's advice was spot on, and there's no reason to believe LITL needed further chastisement.
Posted by shurenka on July 28, 2012 at 12:17 AM · Report this
294
Heh, a lot of people have a lot to say about LITL's situation. While her reaction may have been a bit of too much at the time because he just didn't know of her leveling up, he could also have told her before they were going to have sex that he's met someone and give her the choice of having sex with him after the change of events. Also she could have said to him before sex that she's wanting to level up. So no one's really here at fault and it was an unfortunate change of turns at the very crossroad for both of them.

At best in this situation is she can call him and apologize, tell her feelings in a neutral manner and wish him the best. And if is not a dick of a man he will also be considerate to her and apologize perhaps that information was not exchanged from his part as well.

But really, this is what can happen and it's the risk that you take when you've in this type of "contract" with someone. Immediate communication could have been the only saving thing in this one, but how many do it actually? Happy fucking despite, folks! :)
Posted by ruu on July 28, 2012 at 2:27 AM · Report this
295
PGirl,

So you don't think the bc should be a joint decision in an ltr?

Or there's something so special about your relationship that you have to dictate rubbers for him?

Posted by Hunter78 on July 28, 2012 at 3:36 AM · Report this
Carnal Carnival 296
Lingerie Without A Man -
There is NOTHING wrong with this fantasy, or any other as long as it doesn't harm anyone (without their consent). It's such a simple thing, she shouldn't feel embarrassed about it, though it's perfectly understandable why she is. The world has a habit of seeing the unusual as weird or wrong, so lots of us are afraid to admit to our fantasies. Ironically, if we admitted to them, lots of them wouldn't seem to unusual. For example, you'd be surprised how many straight men want to be fucked in the ass with a strap-on by a woman. She should accept herself and her quirks, they're perfectly allowable.

Tired Of Pills -
No one should ever dictate any decision in a relationship, contraceptive methods should be jointly decided, but when a particular method is as damaging as this to one party's health (and to the relationship by the sound of it), then that method isn't an option. Her partner needs to grow up and start thinking about the well-being of the person he supposedly loves.
Posted by Carnal Carnival http://carnalcarnival.blogspot.com on July 28, 2012 at 6:50 AM · Report this
297
E,

I don't mean that all married people who suggest condoms are cheaters or suspect their spouse is cheating.

Of course not all, but I think it was a good observation.
Posted by Hunter78 on July 28, 2012 at 1:41 PM · Report this
298
E,

It was only a few dozen people

So you doubt the statistical validity of the t shirt study, but if true, you recognize the significance?
Posted by Hunter78 on July 28, 2012 at 1:57 PM · Report this
299
Myd,

You recognize the weakness of your argument and try to throw it back at me. It is because it is is the creationist's argument. The evolutionist says it is because...

since you're not the brightest penny in the fountain

And I love this. Your oft-repeated attacks on my intelligence. It really makes me appreciate the pleasure of bemusement. I may not be the brightest penny, but I don't have to be. My intelligence is well above average, and I stand back from no one in an argument.

You think yourself the brightest penny. I think your intelligence, like your prettiness, is superficial.
Posted by Hunter78 on July 28, 2012 at 2:26 PM · Report this
300
@298, yes, I think pheromones have a lot to do with what people normally call "chemistry." But I don't think bc pills make a huge difference in the effect of pheromones on attraction. If the scientists followed up by interviewing divorcees to see if more of them felt their husbands smelled 'wrong' after the women stopped taking hormones... that might be significant.
Posted by EricaP on July 28, 2012 at 3:48 PM · Report this
301
There are already 300 comments, so LWaM will probably never read this, but I am a straight guy and I've never done fishnets and heels, but I have put on my girlfriend's panties. She said she wanted to see my big cock bulging out of them. What guy can resist that request? Well it was pretty hot and it really got her off, so I'd readily do it again. Would be hard to resist her asking to add a teddy once were hot and horny after a few panties-only sessions. Get my point? Ease into it. Add one new element at a time.
Posted by JJFrank on July 28, 2012 at 5:43 PM · Report this
302
@122 Thst would be like having empathy for slick Ricky (that pos shoul !NEVER! !NEVER! Be addressed as slick Rick. Please) because the only way he can get on the news is sticking up for a pedophile. You had it way too nice for way too long. Damn that pre HIV pocket must have been a sweet spot. Although the UN seems to think its wrong to legally demand that people disclose so who knows what way this thing will go in the year 3000.
Posted by Xam on July 28, 2012 at 6:29 PM · Report this
303
This is for the girl with dressing up her boy fetish. I never thought i would ever be turned on by a guy wearing girls lingerie. My boyfriend asked for it during sex once and i said i was game, it has turned out to be one of the most awesome experiences ever!
he is incredibly hot and since he let out that fantasy our sex life has become explosive! I started a profile on fetlife and writing posts about our adventures with this kink and is been crazy how many straight guys have contacted me asking if would be interested in going out with them.
You should totally start looking around the internet, in places like fetlife.
i wish you a joyful ride!
Posted by strangefruit on July 28, 2012 at 7:23 PM · Report this
304
A few times, in private moments, I have tried on female underwear, panties or bras, to feel their power. And I did and it was strong. I had to cast it off almost immediately. I felt I didn't have the right to wear it.

Would I do it if my woman asked me? If it got her hot, I'd give it a go.

Posted by Hunter78 on July 29, 2012 at 5:19 AM · Report this
mydriasis 305
Hunter,

The first part of what you said is pretty incoherent. I'm guessing what you meant is that I also made an argument that creationists often use (an appeal to authority) which is kind of an irrelevent point since commenting on the dominant consensus in the scientific community is not the same as 'it is because it is'.

The joke is, I comment on your (lack of) intelligence because it's relevent. It's why you fail to grasp clearly written arguments (like IPJ's, to take me out of the picture) and argue against them in a way that shows that you didn't understand the point in the first place.

You "don't back down" from arguments because, again, you lack the capacity to understand a portion of them. Protip: the fact that you're unable to adjust your opinion, even when the evidence overwhelmingly refutes it is not something you should be bragging about. But oh well.

Finally as to your opinions of me? Remember when I said that you and your opinions are beneath me? Still true!

And since we've changed from a discussion of science (where your vocal ignorance was enough to make me speak up for the sake of anyone who might read your posts and think you have a valid point) to a discussion of what you think about me - I'm done! Run along now.
Posted by mydriasis on July 29, 2012 at 6:41 AM · Report this
306
Run along now.

You often wish me away. Your wishes are worthless.

Posted by Hunter78 on July 29, 2012 at 9:45 AM · Report this
mydriasis 307
It doesn't surprise me that you're so used to women wishing you away that it's lost all meaning. However, what "I'm done" means is that I'm done discussing it with you. You have no say in the matter, actually.
Posted by mydriasis on July 29, 2012 at 11:31 AM · Report this
308
I'd actually like to hear what happens with Left in the Lurch-- I've been on the guy end of that a few times where, despite what I say, I'm told that we're "just fwbs" or whatever. Then, of course, the moment I do find a relationship, I've done something wrong. They really loved me and blah blah blah. I can't generalize this to LitL, OF COURSE, but in my experiences like this, the decision was actually post hoc. They (in my life) wanted to control but not feel like they were in any way being controlled, so once they lost that control, they decided that they assumed we were together or that they did love me or something all along. It's a different way of controlling for them. LitL was probably writing this all in good faith, and I hope she read this forum or something to keep us up to date. I really hope it works out because of my own disasters :)
Posted by Mathme on July 29, 2012 at 11:56 AM · Report this
309
She could have an IUD implanted. There are varieties without hormones. He pays/She splays.
Posted by Yoni on July 29, 2012 at 1:58 PM · Report this
310
Tired of Pills - she could also try fertility awareness, which involves reading your own body's signs (temperature, cervical fluid, cervical position) to tell when you are fertile. From what I understand, it's not a bad method when done correctly, though it does require significantly more education and active involvement than other methods. Although I probably wouldn't recommend this to someone who would be absolutely devastated by a pregnancy, it might be an OK method for a married couple, especially if they are at an impasse about other methods.
Posted by rdittydoo on July 29, 2012 at 3:11 PM · Report this
311
Myd,

You keep talking to me because you want to.
Posted by Hunter78 on July 29, 2012 at 3:36 PM · Report this
Chicle Atomico 312
+1 on not mixing in a topic that is actually kind of hot, girls who like boys who [dress] like girls*, with topics that are a total buzz-kill, ie relationship-drama and birth-control letters. Because sadly the latter ended up drowning the entire comments section : (.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I would venture to guess that there are probably quite a sizable number of people of all sexual orientations whose crank is turned by gender transgression. If LWAM is looking for someone who is relatively self-accepting about his interests, there are the online outlets mentioned in the comments, but there may also be social scenes locally where the odds are in her favor. It doesn't have to be as hardcore as the midnight Rocky Horror screenings - it could be the fandom of a band or theatre act. You never know - I live in a medium-sized city and I actually saw a male belly dancer perform at my neighborhood arts festival this year! And fun with dress-up certainly seems to have worked for acts like the Dresden Dolls...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kohs13Nx…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpybi5sZB…

*I just know will not be able to get that old Blur song out of my head for days now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16KN0Odpq…
Posted by Chicle Atomico on July 29, 2012 at 3:42 PM · Report this
TheMisanthrope 313
I honestly can't believe people are defending LitL.

She did a shitty shitty completely immature thing.

Nobody knows what the conversation the guy was going to be had it been held by a rational woman.

It could have been something like, "Hey. So, I met this girl. I think it might be getting serious. I'm not sure. But I think I like her. I'd like to give it a little more time before committing, but I'm giving you a heads up."

Or, maybe, "So, this girl I met is getting pretty serious with me. I think I need somebody with a commitment. But, I like you more. If you can't commit then I'm going to have to break it off. Take a few days. Think about it."

Or, as LitL's apologists read into it, "So, I met this girl. I need to break it off with you."

WE DON'T KNOW!

And, the reason we don't know? LitL acted like an immature bitch and threw him out without a rational conversation. LitL wasn't even honest enough about HER feelings before sex to give the guy the heads up that such a conversation might be an emotional bomb. So it's not the fucking timing. That's a rationalization as to why she acted so crazy. "It's the hormones, Dan!"

No. Fuck you LitL. It was not the timing. It wasnt your post-sex emotions. Thats not an excuse for not acting like an empathetic human to this guy who liked you in the first place. What you did was shitty and wrong. What he did was could have been shitty - WE DON'T KNOW - but even it's worst case shittiness would have been less shitty than what you did.

Now. Once you realize you acted like a completely crazy POS, you can be appropriately apologetic to him. He has the right to accept your apology and refuse to date you. That's within the rules. Especially because you acted like a shit, he may understandably be all "uh, no thanks." But, you need to be apologetic for your bad behavior if you want to have any chance with this guy.
More...
Posted by TheMisanthrope on July 29, 2012 at 5:46 PM · Report this
TheMisanthrope 314
Also, before you say im being a misogynist. I'm not. I've done the same thing as LitL when I was younger. Not the exact scenario, but I've stopped a conversation before it even started, had the full on worst case scenario in my head, overreacted, and then refused to hear the other side. I've acted like the crazy POS, and both recieved and deserved the subsequent tongue lashing. LitL is wondering I'd she maybe overreacted? No. Flat out she did. And she needs somebody - Dan - to beat her over the head with it.
Posted by TheMisanthrope on July 29, 2012 at 6:08 PM · Report this
315
Mr. Savage,
Tell LWAM that it's not an unusual fantasy to have. Not every guy is going to want to participate in it. However, I have had a mutual cross-dressing fantasy for about as long as I can remember.
Maybe she should get in touch with me.
:-)
Posted by Staplerhed on July 29, 2012 at 10:42 PM · Report this
316
Mr. Savage,
You can tell LWAM that she is totally normal. In fact, I've had a mutual cross-dressing fantasy for about as long as I can remember.
It would be a lot of fun to be with a girl who enjoyed this kind of play.
Posted by Staplerhed on July 29, 2012 at 10:47 PM · Report this
317
Dan suggested that the woman who gets turned on by men dressed in lingerie visit www.xdress.com. As a a heterosexual man man who wears sexier panties than his wife, I can tell you that "panties" made for men just aren't panties! Maybe Dan gets turned on by the products (and the models) at xdress.com, but they don't do a thing for me!
Posted by Bobstamp on July 29, 2012 at 10:57 PM · Report this
318
Hunt, are you locked in a maximum security psycho ward somewhere, with nothing better to do than draw pretty pictures on padded walls, using only
a box of broken Crayolas and your toes?
Do you keep hearing Mother?
Did you build a Wall?

Might I suggest that you get Comfortably Numb and chill?
Breathe. Exhale.
Now--don't you feel better?
Posted by auntie grizelda on July 29, 2012 at 11:32 PM · Report this
sissoucat 319
@auntie grizelda

Hunter is just a common troll a-trolling. No parts of his messages reflect his actual viewpoints - their only meaning is to irritate, and to get an angry answer, on which he'll rebound to further irritate.

If you try to reach out to Hunter as a human being, he immediately drops out of the conversation. He's not a real person looking out for communication and understanding, like most of us - he's a very limited role played by someone, that of "this annoying poster who pushes your buttons".

As for why would that someone consistently play troll for so long ? I'd guess it's complete, utter boredom.
Posted by sissoucat on July 30, 2012 at 2:04 AM · Report this
mydriasis 320
@ auntie/sissou

Pretty much. I wish I was better at ignoring that stuff but I'm pretty defensive of science. Something I hope to get better at with age.
Posted by mydriasis on July 30, 2012 at 7:14 AM · Report this
321
TOP and Dan saw the birth control choices for PIV sex as either hormonal birth control or condoms, her responsibility or his. Readers have pointed out the full range of his OR her options: vasectomy, diaphragm, etc. TOP brought up SHARING responsibility for preventing pregnancy, and, to share, communication IS key.
Fertility awareness methods involve shared responsibility and intimate conversations -- a his AND hers option. As an alternative sex advice columnist, Dan, you can help widen people's contraceptive horizons beyond the pill or condom dichotomy, and I encourage you to educate people particularly about lower tech, sustainable options.
Natural methods allow us to do this really intimate act while acknowledging what it was designed to do. Natural methods are not saying sex is ONLY for procreation, but they are saying that sex is ABOUT procreation as well as the many other things you address in your column. Acknowledging the procreative function of intercourse is actually VERY sexy. And, for women, knowing when we're fertile is empowering. Checking my temperature and vaginal mucus, being in touch with the cycles of my body, acknowledging my animal nature is a turn on. O.K. Dan, it's not for everyone, call it a kink, if you want, but please put it out there as an option.
When we talk about women having a right to birth control, we are usually referring to a right to pay big pharma for artificial hormonal birth control. Women also have a right to natural birth control, but unless you and other people in influential places start putting it out there as an option, it's gonna stay submerged in our collective unconscious like it was in mine.
Posted by MicheleB on July 30, 2012 at 7:52 AM · Report this
322
LWAM,

Do not be shy about your fetish. I am a straight guy, pretty good catch if I do say so myself, and if I sensed a woman would get very aroused about something like wearing lingerie I would definitely do it for her. Showing a lot of interest towards it will help you.

A similar example, my straight friend was at a party this weekend that had Glamour Shots and he dressed up as you describe, with a dress over it, and he and his lady found the whole thing awesome and hilarious. I wouldn't be surprised if that dress came off in private and they had more fun. Best of luck to you!
Posted by Blank Blank on July 30, 2012 at 8:01 AM · Report this
seandr 323
@EricaP: I am sympathetic to the fact that condoms decrease sexual pleasure. Would it help, in bed, if I expressed regret that we have to use them?

As a guy who uses condoms but would rather not, the only times I've felt resentful about it is when it seemed to fit into a larger pattern of disregard for my perspective on sex.

With a partner who is a generous, caring, and creative lover, wearing a condom is a minor but necessary inconvenience. When your partner tends to be emotionally/sexually unavailable, the condom requirement can feel like yet another form of neglect. If, on top of that, she completely invalidates how condoms impact your experience of sex, then the relationship is completely dysfunctional in my opinion.

So, in answer to your question, yes, validation and empathy is important and helpful, but ultimately, being generous with him in bed should balance out any sense of unfairness he might feel at "taking one for the team".
Posted by seandr on July 30, 2012 at 9:30 AM · Report this
seandr 324
@280: How about a vasectomy?

Personally, I've scheduled and then canceled two vasectomy appointments due to anxiety about complications. I have two friends who had the procedure, and both experienced significant and lasting pain afterwards. One of them ultimately had the procedure reversed after 12 months of not being able to have sex or ride a bike.

I realize two friends do not constitute a statistically significant sample, but it's impossible for me to discount their experience.
Posted by seandr on July 30, 2012 at 9:41 AM · Report this
325
I'm really scratching my head here. A vasectomy *reversal* is WAY more surgery (we're talking hours, and many stitches) than a plain vasectomy. How on earth would that make anything better with regard to having sex or riding a bike?
Posted by Eirene on July 30, 2012 at 10:33 AM · Report this
mydriasis 326
@ Michele

Actually, if you go ahead and read the letter you'll see that she had a conversation with her doctor (a medical professional who was trained on the matter of birth control, fyi) about alternative options including the IUD which was explicitly mentioned and ruled out and presumably all other options which were not rehashed in her letter at length (they didn't need to be!) Dan (reasonably) trusted that her doctor's assessment is right.

For every kind of birth control there are exclusion factors. Fertility awareness is labour-intensive and not conducive to every lifestyle. Oh and I'm not exactly keen on having large swaths of time where sex is off limits. That's not anywhere near close to being a good idea in my books.

In other words: who would this method not work for? High libido individuals, people with hectic busy lifestyles who don't have the time to dedicate, and people who are not in monogamous relationships.

I get so tired of this whole "DON'T YOU PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT BC METHOD X? IT'S FLAWLESS AND WONDERFUL AND EVERYONE SHOULD DO IT."

No. I like condoms. They're affordable, they're easy, I don't have ANY problem with loss of pleasure from them and they protect against the vast majority of STIs including HIV. Oh, plus they're fabulous if you're about to run out the door wearing a short skirt and teeny lacy underwear. I also use the pill because having a period every few weeks blows.

But that doesn't mean that they're for everyone. And I'm not going to claim they should be. There is no perfect form of birth control, they all have their pros and cons.

Not to be rude, but you're like the twentieth person to be all "OMG DAN WHAT ABOUT OTHER FORMS".
Posted by mydriasis on July 30, 2012 at 10:50 AM · Report this
327
@319 & @320: Oh, yeah-----that's right. My troll sensor button was turned off! Otherwise, I, too, would have known to ignore Hunter's prize collection of glaring red flags. Thank you both for bringing this to my attention.

Meanwhile, back to the martoonis and German chocolate cake!!!!
Posted by auntie grizelda on July 30, 2012 at 10:58 AM · Report this
328
@nocutename, if you're still reading...

"Have you never gradually felt yourself developing feelings when you didn't intend to?"

Gay man here. This has been my story for most any sex partner I've fallen for. I've been through it enough to learn not to call anything "casual" if there's the possibility I might fall for the guy, and to be honest enough about my own emotions to admit I've got to really get to know a guy before I can exclude the possibility I'm gonna fall for him.

Because when you call things "casual" there is really little room to expect heightened emotional sensitivity from whoever you're being "casual" with. It's rather disclaimer against all the normal emotional expectations of sexual relationships.

If I expect him to share his feelings with me, particularly his feelings *about* me, with any less reservation than I might expect from any other "casual" friend, then what I'm looking for ain't "casual." And it's kind of on me to admit that up front, if I don't want to always be angry at the eventual emotional insensitivity of my "casual" sex partners.

"Casual" also seems to me to imply that *every* time might be the last time. If I'm only entering into the sex act based on the presumption that it won't be the last time, then it's on me to make that clear. Because a "casual" relationship--sexual or nonsexual--doesn't generally involve the other person being there for you when you want/need them (at least absent any explicit promise.) That's kind of a big part of what makes it "casual."

So personally, these days, I'm really trying to stop having "casual" sex. That is to say, I've learned that I can't help but have unpredictable emotions on the line. I can't work on the premise that I ain't gonna fall for a guy, any moreso than I can work on the premise that I'll still like him once I get to know him. New relationships are all possibility, and the only way to know which way they'll go is to get to know the other person over time. If I'm not making that clear, then I'm lying to the other guy--and myself.
More...
Posted by JackDitch on July 30, 2012 at 10:59 AM · Report this
329
seandr @323, thanks, that's very helpful; I also appreciated hearing about your friends' experience with vasectomies. Like you we have heard some horror stories about pain and other complications.

mydriasis@326, fertility awareness is not hard work; taking your temp takes about a minute a day and checking your cervical fluid takes about 2 seconds. You do have to take your temp at the same time every day, like bc pills.

If you have no religious issue with condoms, then you just use condoms during the fertile period. In a stable relationship it provides a good way to share the annoyance of birth control. Also, many women appreciate seeing understanding their fertility.
Posted by EricaP on July 30, 2012 at 11:16 AM · Report this
330
Given that Dan made a Letter of the Day out of the BC advice, my assumption is that he thought it was a good addition to the discussion.
Posted by Eirene on July 30, 2012 at 11:41 AM · Report this
AFinch 331
@268 - I've been away and not keeping up with this rather long thread: yes, in fact, it would make a big difference...it would help a lot. It would make it a lot more comfortable saying, "you know, I'm really into you and all, but I just can't come this way! Can I take it off and get a hand-job to finish?" I think we've had this discussion here before, but a lot of women find a thirty minute session just something that makes them sore, not hornier.

As I said: I'm very lucky to have a committed partner who hates them just as much, and she is fine with hormonal BC, we've been monogamous for a long time and are both STI free.

In my 'casual' phases, I've always worn them myself - taking responsibility for my own health, not just my partner's. I'm pretty sure there was a time many decades ago when my super-horny and always charged teenage male self would have been just fine, but then that self wasn't getting laid all the time by random women either. C'est la vie - timing is everything!
Posted by AFinch on July 30, 2012 at 11:58 AM · Report this
mydriasis 332
@ Erica

"mydriasis@326, fertility awareness is not hard work; taking your temp takes about a minute a day and checking your cervical fluid takes about 2 seconds. You do have to take your temp at the same time every day, like bc pills."

That's after you've put in the original effort of the learning curve (becoming familiar with identifying your own mucous and body temp changes). Besides, some people do find taking a pill every day to be a hassle or something that can be easily forgotten (I've forgotten a number of pills in my day). A quick glance at wikipedia says...

Some symptoms-based methods require tracking of basal body temperatures. Because irregular sleep can interfere with the accuracy of basal body temperatures, shift workers and those with very young children, for example, might not be able to use those methods.

FA requires action daily, detailed record keeping. Some may find the time and detail requirements too complicated.


My point wasn't that FA is bad or stupid - my point was that it isn't a good idea for me. I can pop a pill on the bus no problem, I can't do that with cervical mucous. For some people even remembering to take the pill daily can be difficult, hormonal birth control also offers the ring or the shot which is lower maintenance.

I think that FA is a great idea for the people who are able to do it! But I'm sick of the whole "my BC method is perfect therefore everyone should do it" attitude.

"If you have no religious issue with condoms, then you just use condoms during the fertile period. In a stable relationship it provides a good way to share the annoyance of birth control. Also, many women appreciate seeing understanding their fertility."

I'm aware that this is how it's usually done in practice... but that takes us back to the original point. You're not using "fertility awareness" as your birth control. You're using "fertility awareness AND condoms" as your birth control. (Or some other method).
More...
Posted by mydriasis on July 30, 2012 at 12:10 PM · Report this
mydriasis 333
* Also, I choose when to take my birth control pill, temperature must be taken immediately after waking up, which to me would feel restrictive.
Posted by mydriasis on July 30, 2012 at 12:14 PM · Report this
seandr 334
@Eirene: I'm no testicologist, but if memory serves, the pain is caused by the body's reaction to the semen that ends up spilling into the scrotal sack. That's why reversing the procedure stops the pain.

And what if the reversal failed? You'd spend the rest of your life feeling like someone just kicked you in the nuts. Not too good of a deal.

The last thing I want is a 3rd kid, so I'd love to be shooting blanks. We also use timing and body awareness for the occasional unprotected romp, and that definitely helps. If I was facing the prospect of never feeling a natural warm wet wonderful pussy all over my cock ever again, I'd probably say "fuck it" and roll the dice on a vasectomy.
Posted by seandr on July 30, 2012 at 1:14 PM · Report this
335
@332, I certainly would never tell you what method to use for anything. I also would never say that fertility awareness methods are for everyone. Me, I love my bc pills, so I only used FAM to get pregnant. But men-who-hate-condoms in stable relationships with women-who-can't-take-hormones should encourage their partners to give FAM a try. It's not hard and it doesn't take much time.

"I can pop a pill on the bus no problem, I can't do that with cervical mucous."

Mydriasis, most people have two seconds when they are in the bathroom.
Posted by EricaP on July 30, 2012 at 1:45 PM · Report this
mydriasis 336
@335

"I certainly would never tell you what method to use for anything. I also would never say that fertility awareness methods are for everyone"

You wouldn't, I know. :)

My response was to numerous posters complaining that Dan didn't take this opportunity to go on a lengthy discussion of every alternate form of birth control while subtly implying that anyone who uses more popular methods of birth control just doesn't know any better.

"Mydriasis, most people have two seconds when they are in the bathroom."

Yup, but that's exactly my point. You have to get to the bathroom. I can pop a pill anywhere, testing cervical mucuos requires privacy. Again, it's a lifestyle thing. For me personally I typically have a lot of balls in the air and I can be a little forgetful. "Oh shit, I forgot to take my pill *eats pill*" is one thing, "Oh shit, I forgot to check my mucous, better find some time to run to a washroom soon before I forget again.". That might seem like a trivial difference for you but for me it isn't, and I'm not alone.
Posted by mydriasis on July 30, 2012 at 2:23 PM · Report this
337
@seandr: I would definitely avoid the urologists your friends had, that's for sure. Go for someone with lots of experience and get references. Keep in mind that you're more likely to hear the horror stories than the good experiences. In the US around 12% of couples of reproductive age are relying on vasectomies for birth control, and there must be lots more men in the population who've had vasectomies but whose wives are past childbearing. If it's even twice as many in total, well, that's about a quarter of the men in the US.

In Denmark, the Netherlands, New Zealand, and Great Britain, more men are sterilized than women.
Posted by Eirene on July 30, 2012 at 2:37 PM · Report this
338
Ei,

If 12% of the men "in couples of reproductive age" have vasectomies, then the best guess for all men is also 12%. Less actually, since the v was less popular among the older cohorts.

Posted by Hunter78 on July 30, 2012 at 3:15 PM · Report this
339
Griz,

You seem to have some 1st hand knowledge of psyche wards. You're more coherent when you have your meds balanced.
Posted by Hunter78 on July 30, 2012 at 3:24 PM · Report this
340
@331 "It would make it a lot more comfortable saying, 'you know, I'm really into you and all, but I just can't come this way!'"

Good point! And, that, in turn, opens the door for more talk about particular preferences and possible workarounds. All to the good.

Posted by EricaP on July 30, 2012 at 4:01 PM · Report this
341
337, 338-- I googled on "What percentage of men in the U.S. have had vasectomies" and got the following statistics from different web pages:

More than 15% of men over age 40.
1 out of 5 men over age 35.
5% of married couples of reproductive age .
1 out of 6 men over age 35.

So there's a good deal of disagreement.
I was interested in the article on what a hard sell it is.
Posted by Crinoline on July 30, 2012 at 5:53 PM · Report this
seandr 342
@337: Alright, I'll get snipped. Wish them luck.
Posted by seandr on July 30, 2012 at 5:57 PM · Report this
nocutename 343
seandr: This is a side effect I have not seen confirmed, but for my ex-husband and two of my friends' husbands who had vasectomies, they found that their staying power during sex increased. Having the vasectomy improved our marital sex life enormously. My ex froze some sperm just in case he should ever want to have another child down the road, and it was such a relief to not have to worry about contraception methods and their various drawbacks, or to worry about accidental pregnancy. He felt fine after a two-day recovery.

If you decide to go for it, I hope you have a positive experience.
Posted by nocutename on July 30, 2012 at 6:20 PM · Report this
344
Ack, that was a stupid math error. I was forgetting the denominator would change as well. Duh. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22133…

Abstract
BACKGROUND:

Vasectomy has been found to be a highly cost-effective contraceptive method. For couples, tubal sterilization and vasectomy have the same result, but the two methods are used by different segments of the population.
STUDY DESIGN:

We conducted an analysis of data from male and female samples of the 2006-2008 National Survey of Family Growth, nationally representative samples of men and women in the United States aged 15-44 years.
RESULTS:

Among married men, 13.1% reported vasectomies (95% confidence interval 10.4%-16.3%), compared to 21.1% (17.8%-24.9%) of married women who reported tubal sterilizations. Men with higher education and income had greater prevalence of vasectomy than those less educated, while women with lower education and income had the highest prevalence of tubal sterilization.
Posted by Eirene on July 30, 2012 at 8:15 PM · Report this
sissoucat 345
@mydriasis and EricaP - regarding fertility awareness

Laying aside time needed each morning for the temperature test and the mucous test - there are some people, like me, for whom it just doesn't work.

I have highly irregular cycles, of often more than 35 days. I've tried the temperature curve for months : according to it, I never do ovulate during the cycle, or I ovulate several times. I have had cycles with very drastic mucous changes, some with none. Once I became pregnant on a day that, according to FA measurements, was only two-three days away from the period. Go figure.

Despite all that, I'm fertile enough, since I still managed to have 3 kids.

So, since hormonal birth control wreaks havoc with my already naturally compromised hormonal balance (no periods for more than one year after stopping it), and FA doesn't apply... condoms work best for me.
Posted by sissoucat on July 31, 2012 at 12:57 AM · Report this
346
@339: Yawn. Go back to your cave, troll boy. You're even more ridiculous when you bother to post.
Posted by auntie grizelda on July 31, 2012 at 1:27 AM · Report this
347
Moving right along.....

EricaP, mydriasis, sissoucat, et. al. back to you.
Posted by auntie grizelda on July 31, 2012 at 1:29 AM · Report this
348
Why would e.g. an IUD be a bad fit?? Maybe I'm wrong but her doctor seems kinda narrow-minded.
Posted by mmmm on July 31, 2012 at 7:40 AM · Report this
349
@mydriasis: We're brainstorming what could work for TOP. You're happy with condoms and the pill. Great! She isn't.

A big issue in medicine (and life) is misinformation and lack of information. Getting a second opinion from another doctor or relevant professional is often a wise thing to do. That's what TOP was doing. I would like to see her be able to make an informed decision based on accurate information about her options. There's a good chance she didn't get that from her doctor and she didn't get that from Dan.

Not a big surprise. Because Fertility Awareness Methods are essentially Do-It-Yourself, they have limited profit-making potential. Thus, development and promotional dollars are scarce. Efficacy studies, awareness-building campaigns, and educational materials all cost money. So there's a huge lack of awareness about FAM methods. Dan could do a lot to get the word out about this often overlooked option. That's what I was urging him to do. And, yes, as @auntie grizelda points out, it's not for everyone, but it's worth exploring as an option. After all, @Seandr's personal solution @334 might work for TOP and her husband. Using fertility tracking, they can have the "natural warm wet wonderful pussy" Seandr describes the majority of the month. Then, they can choose to use condoms or do other sexual variations the minority of the month. In TOP's situation, that strikes me as a better solution than using condoms all the time, which is basically where Dan had left her.
Posted by MicheleB on July 31, 2012 at 8:22 AM · Report this
350
Of course, if TOP's charts turn out to look like sissoucat's -- "according to it, I never do ovulate during the cycle, or I ovulate several times" (@345) -- then FAM won't be a solution for her. But it's worth a try for a few months to see if one's charts make sense. For many women, the charts do make sense, and it's empowering to learn so much about your body.
Posted by EricaP on July 31, 2012 at 8:49 AM · Report this
mydriasis 351
@ Michele

You're assuming (without knowing) that her doctor didn't take it into consideration. Dan made the opposite assumption (so did I) and actually answered the question at hand.

FA is extremely effective when practice correctly. End of story, what other studies do you need? It's not quite as good (at preventing pregnancy) as the pill but it is one of the top most effective methods (I read that inside my pill insert, btw).

The suggestion that doctors won't suggest (or aren't aware of) non-pharma options is absurd. Go into the doctor's office with celiac and see if he or she tries to sell you a pill.
Posted by mydriasis on July 31, 2012 at 11:11 AM · Report this
mydriasis 352
@ Erica

Maybe. But maybe she already knows what her periods are like and so does her doctor. Maybe she's already read about it and knows it doesn't suit her for some other reason. I don't understand why everyone's assuming she just doesn't know any better.
Posted by mydriasis on July 31, 2012 at 11:32 AM · Report this
nocutename 353
@328 (JackDitch):
Thanks for the thoughtful contribution. For my own part, I have finally learned that I am not really so good at being casual. If the sex is good, I want to repeat it a lot. If I have repeated good or great sex, and I'm enjoying the person's company, I tend to fall for that person. If the sex isn't all that good, I don't see the need to repeat it. And yet I have repeatedly thrown myself into "casual" sexual relationships, only to discover that I wasn't able to be casual. I'm trying a new way of being, myself, which is to not have sex as casually with men with whom I know there's no possibility of a real relationship, in case I fall for the guy, with the result that I haven't gotten laid in a long time!

I think that someone else on this thread brought up the fact that the lw might have been lying, not so much to the guy she was seeing, as to herself, telling both him and herself she wanted a casual relationship, when in fact she didn't. I think that people lie to themselves a lot, and that there is a lot of pressure on women in particular to adopt an attitude of casualness which they might not really possess, lest they be perceived or perceive themselves as old-fashioned, unenlightened, not-sex-positive, uptight throwbacks. Our culture is full of hip, sex-for-pure-recreation models for young women--just look at any Judd Apatow-esque heroine. I think that women who want to believe in themselves as smart and modern may feel subtle cultural pressure to behave as men have historically behaved. I realize I'm going to bring the wrath of Sloggers down upon me, that a lot of people will tell me that I'm wrong, or that they are able to separate sex from affection with no problem, or that I'm a bitch of some kind, and all the usual disclaimers therefore apply.

I think this letter writer and her boy are probably young, and a lot of the problems in her letter stem from poor communication skills all around. But neither of them seem malicious.

What's been troubling me is the attitude many on this comment thread, who see the lw as being a vicious, man-eating bitch who got what she deserved and then tried to change the rules that she had established. I'd like to see a little more compassion in these comments, but for some reason, that didn't happen here.
More...
Posted by nocutename on July 31, 2012 at 12:59 PM · Report this
354
353-nocute-- Let me elaborate on what I meant when I said that I thought LITL was lying to herself about being casual. I think you're saying much the same thing.

35 years ago when I was still in my teens, I fell hard for the first man (a boy himself) I had sex with. When he ditched me (normal enough for a first relationship and one that burned so bright and burned out so quickly), I fell hard, picked myself up, and dusted myself off as well as I could given the resources I had. There were a lot of things I was doing wrong in the way I was managing my life. One that I could identify was falling in love so completely that I lost myself in the process. I needed to figure out how to separate myself from all the white picket fence feelings that came with sex.

Which isn't to say that sex should be separate from love. It's only to say that love shouldn't be akin to drowning. I completely know what it is to develop feelings for someone I'm having good sex with. That's where I'm coming from when I suggested that LITL might have been lying to herself. It's also where I was coming from when I rewrote the scenario to suggest that she didn't realize she'd fallen for him until after she jumped to the conclusion that she was being dumped.

It's just that I've been there. I know what it is to need to experiment both with sex to find out what works for me and with the emotions that accompany sex-- to find out what works for me.

That said, I'm not the stereotype who enters into a friends with benefits relationship and immediately walks around miserable because it hasn't turned into something more. I had a fwb relationship for 8 years, a relationship that ended when first one, then the other, found a more permanent (and conventional) relationship to replace it. My husband and I attended his wedding. I still think of him as a valued friend.

I tell you this to let you know it's possible. It sounds like you're thinking clearly.
More...
Posted by Crinoline on July 31, 2012 at 2:22 PM · Report this
355
do most of the women here not experience a significant difference in the feeling of PIV sex with vs. without a condom? for me it is mind-bogglingly different, and if I could do away with them forever I would. I've only done this with one boyfriend and with my husband, so not much of a sample size, and each felt very different from the other, but in both cases the sex was magnitudes better for me without the condoms. it's mostly the physical sensation - just this indescribable frisson when his cock touches me. but it also made me feel like I knew each of their bodies, and thus each of them, that much better.
Posted by grushenka on July 31, 2012 at 4:53 PM · Report this
nocutename 356
@354 (Crinoline):
I think girls today have a particular set of expectations to follow, that say they should be hot and available with no emotional strings attached, whereas when I was growing up, the idea of a woman having or wanting a FWB was unheard of.

I'm 49, and a lot of my sexual persona was formed, I believe, in rebellion against what I saw as my mother's old-fashioned, non-feminist attitudes, including one that suggested sex was special and should be saved, if not for marriage, then for someone you really, truly loved, who really, truly loved you.

I wanted to be wilder than my mother, more advanced. I very deliberately and self-consciously defined myself--and it was important to me to be defined by others--as the girl who has sex with no strings. Promiscuity went hand in hand with liberation, and being open-minded.

I have had FWBs, and a long-term marriage, as well as lots of one-night stands, boyfriends, essentially any variation of heterosexual binary entanglement one can imagine. I was meditating on JackDitch's realization, and adding that I didn't want to admit to myself, let alone others, that in some ways, I am more traditional than I would once would have thought. At this point in my life, I no longer want to have sex with someone I'm not dating.

I think my self-definition is somewhat different in origin, from that of a woman in her young 20s, who isn't so much rebelling against a social/cultural convention, but is trying to conform to a different one.

I have daughters, 18 and 13, and I want them to be empowered, to be sex-positive for its own sake, because sex gives them pleasure, not because they are trying to define themselves by or against cultural expectations. If they are happy and content and fulfilled in FWB or even more casual sexual relationships, great (issues of disease- and pregnancy-prevention notwithstanding); if they want their partnered sex life to take place in the context of more traditional relationships, that is great, too. I want them not to be influenced by those outside forces, but I think that is very difficult, and requires a great deal of maturity and comfort with one's own choices.

More...
Posted by nocutename on July 31, 2012 at 5:12 PM · Report this
357
Hey LWAM,

Dan is correct. Though I have never done this, I have fantasized quite a bit about dressing in lingerie and panties - but like you, I haven't had any luck finding a partner who would find this innocent behavior fun.

Drop me a line!

Chris
Posted by c-bee on July 31, 2012 at 5:33 PM · Report this
mydriasis 358
@ nocute

"I want them not to be influenced by those outside forces, but I think that is very difficult, and requires a great deal of maturity and comfort with one's own choices."

Indeed.

Speaking from experience, following your own set of values and ethics can cause a lot of conflict if it's different than your friend group in highschool. Looking back I'm beyond thankful that I did, but it can be incredibly isolating and if I have a daughter one day I hope she's lucky enough to not face that kind of conflict.

Because honestly, there's no good answer. I recently talked to a girl who was in the same group in highschool. Unlike me, she stayed friends with them. A couple years ago she was date raped by someone partly in the group. Everyone sort of closed ranks and gave the bullshit "oh well, it's complicated, he's not a bad guy, there was lots of alcohol, etc" speech. None of them were supportive or there for her. I was appalled, obviously. She said to me that she wished she had the guts to do what I did and just followed her own feelings. But of course, things were crappy for me back then too, being constantly put down and slut shamed is a crappy thing when you're a teenager. So is being mocked for being prudish, etc.

Anyway, I don't mean that to be depressing! I'm very grateful to my younger self for not letting anyone bully me into being someone I'm not. I wish your daughters the best of luck.
Posted by mydriasis on July 31, 2012 at 5:57 PM · Report this
359
Nocute-- I hadn't realized we're so close to the same age.

I understand not wanting your daughters to be unduly influenced for the reasons you state, but whatever we want, it's plain impossible. It's like saying you want your children to grow up speaking whatever language they want without being influenced by hearing adults communicate. If you're going to have partnered sex, you're going to be influenced by your partners' attitudes towards sex. Those attitudes will be formed by one's exposure to the society at large. There's no avoiding it.

Luckily, the society at large isn't one monolithic thing. It's varied, so one can, to an extent, pick and choose one's influences.
Posted by Crinoline on July 31, 2012 at 6:31 PM · Report this
360
@356 & @359: I didn't realize that I'm close to your ages, too!
I just turned 48 on Monday (July 30).

No wonder I enjoy your posts so much!! Although I don't have any kids, I still feel like I can relate.
Posted by auntie grizelda on July 31, 2012 at 11:48 PM · Report this
361
To TOP,

We're socialized, as women and as non-doctors, to do exactly as our doctor tells us. But here's the thing: your doctor can't tell just by looking at your lady-parts whether or not the mirena or anything else will be a good fit for you. I would advise you to do as much research as you can on your own and to discuss it again with your doctor when you've got a fair amount of information to back you up.

If your doctor can't give you a REALLY compelling reason not to use the birth control YOU want to use (and by compelling, I mean a big health risk), then it's time to find a new doctor who cares about how you feel and what you have to say.

In the meantime, Dan's right. Your man wants to have P in the V sex? He needs to man up and share some responsibility unless he wants to share in a much larger set of responsibilities by getting you pregnant.
Posted by Seagypsy on August 1, 2012 at 9:40 AM · Report this
362
Girls are taught in Kindergarten that life is fair. It is not. Women get pregnant, men don't. But men are usually (not always) stronger, better able to separate emotions from actions (usually), and have some other wonderful protective traits. But insisting that men stop being men for the sake of "fairness" just means a shortage of strong, rational, and protective men and an abundance of whiny wimps.

Why hasn't someone suggested a tubal ligation? There are plenty of risks to vasectomy that haven't even been discussed here, notably, reduced testosterone assimilation. Although for some women, who probably would be happier as lesbians, I'm sure that would be a plus.

Condoms alter sensation to *both* parties. By smoothing out the ridge on the penis means less G spot stimulation for the woman. They can also impact a man's ability to sustain an erection. Maybe that's what this woman really wants. I agree with those respondents who think that there is something more going on here that using condoms won't "cure".

I am troubled by the insistence that a man not liking condoms and the resultant diminished intimacy between he and his wife is somehow to blame for a woman's incompatibility with the pill, as opposed to her insistence that she retain the ability to get pregnant. The modern "postage stamp" tubal ligation, meanwhile, has very little risk.

Perhaps the birth control pill has altered this woman's thinking and the hormones are interfering with her rationality. Maybe that's why her relationship with her husband is in trouble.
Posted by Testosterone Magnet on August 1, 2012 at 11:17 AM · Report this
363
I want to echo what others have already commented. I think shared responsibility should consider getting another opinion about what birth control would work for her. It is unfortunate but even in this day and age, doctors can have a conservative view of birth control and what is "appropriate". I would suggest finding a planned parenthood if there is one close by, as they tend to have very progressive views on birth control. With that said, there may be medical factors that make an IUD an unwise solution. But with that said, her husband should get over it. He is lucky enough to be married to a woman who has gone through the trouble and annoyance of finding oral birth control which works then he is lucky enough! He needs to accept the responsibility that comes with sex and its either wear a condom or the nursery ready for a baby
Posted by brumandcoke on August 6, 2012 at 4:47 PM · Report this
364
Ok well I'm sure no one is still reading after 363 comments and I myself started scrolling at a certain point but I wanted to say to the girl with the cross-dressing fantasy, come join fetlife and chat about cross-dressing with other girls who like it. I love my pseudo-lesbian girlfriend (xd boy) and love seeing men in skirts and thigh-highs and bras. It's the most underrated sexual experience out there! Do it, my friend. Good luck.
Posted by Domina on August 6, 2012 at 8:37 PM · Report this
365
TOP:

Your doctor doesn't think that other methods would be a good fit for you? Don't answer me, but probe deeper with your doctor--why not? In the USA, doctors tend to get off on promoting the pill (drug company kickbacks?), but in civilised countries other methods are vastly more popular, and with good reason. Ask a second or third opinion, and find out whether an IUD (for example) would work.

Besides the fact that condoms feel horrible for the guy, they're also not very reliable. You can do better with Fertility Awareness (a more data-intensive version of the good ol' Rhythm Method).

How about a vasectomy? There aren't many reversible options for guys, but there are some. Look them up and figure out what you'd be comfortable with. A combined approach (say, Fertility Awareness in addition to testicular heating) might put you well into the >99%-reliability zone.
Posted by something on August 10, 2012 at 10:57 AM · Report this
366
I'm surprised more people haven't suggested the fellow get snipped. If he cares that much about condoms, then freeze some sperm and man up.
Posted by Makenna on August 16, 2012 at 10:34 AM · Report this
367
I'm 24 & in a monogamous, hetero LTR, and had to stop using hormonal birth control a couple years ago due to chronic migraines & a link to increased migraines & stroke with hormones.
For the last 2+ years of my relationship I've used Encare brand spermicide, which is a tiny little ovule-insert which dissolves after a few minutes inside you, & which not only kills sperm, but also creates a (temporary, wet/natural-feeling) barrier to physically block the sperm's path.
While the idea of using a spermicide took a little getting used to, not being the most common contraception method for a twenty-something, I've been really happy with Encare, and I love not being on hormones anymore.
There are also foam spermicide sponges, which you insert, but which don't dissolve & which you have to remove after several hours and/or several sexual encounters. I found the sponges less appealing than the ovule, because even though it was virtually unnoticeable during sex (to me and my partner) it became uncomfortable for me to have a soaked foam sponge inside me for too long. Much like having a tampon in for too long.
I believe both methods are equally effective, and I think as effective as condoms if used correctly every time (which isn't difficult). I can find Encare in most of my local pharmacy chains, but it is harder to find than the sponge. I often buy Encare online, if you can't find it in stores.

Also, it seems strange that her doctor wouldn't recommend something like a non-hormonal IUD, or a spermicide. Maybe the reason is specific to her situation, but I would see another doctor to be sure.
Posted by lizlizliz on September 26, 2012 at 9:24 PM · Report this

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