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Folsom Street Fairness
September 26, 2012
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Joe Newton
I was wondering what you think about the Folsom Street Fair, the annual gay leather/fetish/BDSM street fair in San Francisco. Do you think it is still a socially relevant display? Or do you think that in this time when we are fighting for civil rights and equality that it does more harm than good?
Better Displaying San Francisco
I'm pretty sure that the Folsom Street Fair remains socially relevant—and highly so—to folks in the leather/fetish/BDSM scene in San Francisco. It's also relevant to anyone who believes in freedom of sexual expression. (For an idea of what Folsom looks like, and to see the scale of the thing, search for "Folsom Street Fair" on YouTube.)
And it's important to emphasize that the Folsom Street Fair, which took place last weekend, isn't exclusively gay. Thousands of straight kinksters attend every year. About the only difference between the straight attendees and the queer ones is that no one claims that the kinky straight people at Folsom make all heterosexuals everywhere look like sex-crazed sadomasochists. (For the record: Sex-crazed sadomasochists are my favorite kind of sadomasochists.)
Straight people, of course, aren't fighting for their fundamental civil rights. Kinky straights can marry in all 50 states, after all, and no one is pledging to kick kinky straights out of the armed forces or to write anti-kinky-straight bigotry into the US Constitution. So maybe it's not the same—maybe it's not as politically risky—when straight people come out in bondage gear, leather chaps, and pony masks. But straight people are a big part of Folsom, too.
But you didn't ask about kinky straight people. You wondered if the Folsom Street Fair was harming the struggle for LGBT equality.
The Folsom Street Fair has taken place on a Sunday in September in San Francisco every year since 1984. Pride parades have been taking place on a Sunday in June in cities all over the country since the early 1970s. And every year, we hear from concern trolls about the damage that's supposedly being done to the LGBT rights movement by all those drag queens, go-go boys, dykes, and leather guys at Pride or Folsom or International Mr. Leather.
But everyone acknowledges—even our enemies—that the gay rights movement has made extraordinary strides in the 43 years since the Stonewall Riots in New York City. We're not all the way there yet, we have yet to secure our full civil equality, but the pace of progress has been unprecedented in the history of social justice movements. The women's suffrage movement, for example, was launched in the United States in 1848. It took more than 70 years to pass the 19th Amendment, which extended the vote to women. In 1969, at the time of the Stonewall Riots, gay sex was illegal in 49 states. Gay sex is now legal in every US state, gay marriage is legal in six states and our nation's capital (and in all of Canada), and gays, lesbians, and bisexuals can serve openly in the military. (The armed forces still discriminate against trans people.) And we've made this progress despite fierce opposition from the religious right, a deadly plague that wiped out a generation of gay men, and—gasp—all those leather guys at Folsom and the go-go boys and drag queens at Pride.
We couldn't have come so far, so fast if Folsom or pride parades were harming our movement. And I would argue that leather guys, dykes on bikes, go-go boys, and drag queens have actually helped our movement, BDSF. They demonstrate to all people that our movement isn't just about the freedom to be gay or straight. Our movement is about the freedom to be whatever kind of straight, gay, lesbian, bi, or trans person you want to be. And freedom, as Dick Cheney famously said, means freedom for everyone—from pantsuit-wearing POS sellouts like Mary Cheney and Chris Barron to kinky straight people and hot gay boys in harnesses.
I don't think it's a coincidence that cities with big pride parades and events like Folsom are more tolerant and more accepting of sexual minorities than cities that don't have big gay parades and fetish street fairs. If an event like Folsom were actually counterproductive, BDSF, you would expect San Francisco to be less tolerant and less likely to back equal rights for sexual minorities, not more likely.
And finally, BDSF, any attempt to shut down the Folsom Street Fair—or to ban drag queens, go-go boys, dykes on bikes, or leather guys from pride parades—would be so poisonously divisive that it would do more harm to our movement than a thousand Folsom Street Fairs ever could.
I'm a female in a relationship with a male. My boyfriend recently told me that he bought a set of butt plugs for himself. He said he's happy to use them alone if I'm not interested. I don't mind the idea of him using them when we are together, and I would also be more than willing to peg him if he wanted me to, but I hesitate to tell him. I'm worried this will lead to him suggesting we play in my anal territory, and I am really uncomfortable with this idea. I have IBS; my lower digestive tract and I don't get on well. I do not trust my body enough to feel comfortable trying that, and I don't think I could look my boyfriend in the eye again if he put a finger up my butt and something terrible happened. I know when it comes to guys wanting anal sex, your stand is that he should take it first if he wants to give it. So if I am unwilling to take it in return, do I forfeit any right to do my boyfriend with a strap-on?
I'm Being Selfish?
Turnabout is fair play and reciprocity is important, yes, but a person can have a legit physical limitation that makes certain sorts of reciprocal turnabouting impossible. Such is the case with you and your butt. You have a perfectly good reason to avoid being on the receiving end of anal play, IBS, and I can't imagine that your boyfriend—who is obviously interested in his end receiving regardless of whether yours does—is going to object to your offer to plug him or peg his ass even if he isn't allowed to plug, peg, or fuck yours.
Yes, Dan, there are still plenty of straight guys out there who are put off by women who go "too fast," and oral sex on the first date is typically perceived as too fast. It's part of a misogynist mind-set, IMHO, that says women who are too sexually assertive are not "relationship material." Or maybe it's some ancient male fear of the insatiable nympho who will drain his male power by overwhelming him sexually. Or, more generously, maybe these men think going too fast just speaks to poor judgment (although straight men rarely apply that logic to themselves). Whatever the cause, I've experienced it myself, and I found the solution to be to date more sex-positive feminist men who take responsibility for their half of the pacing. I've found that feminist men actually appreciate women who are sexually assertive, while many non-feminist men are happy to accept the attentions of sexually assertive women while at the same time harboring contempt for us.
The Happy Whore
Thanks for sharing, THW.
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"Gay sex is now legal in every US state"
*scurries to wikipedia*
This was in my lifetime! How did I not hear about it? I legit thought those wacky Southern states still had sodomy laws. Belated congrats, Americans.
*scurries to wikipedia*
This was in my lifetime! How did I not hear about it? I legit thought those wacky Southern states still had sodomy laws. Belated congrats, Americans.
5
THW - the fact that you or BLOW from last week give a lot of blow jobs but get few long term relationships is really just a numbers game. Let me explain:
If I went on a first date with 100 women, I would probably have a spark with about 10-20 of them to want to see them again. Pretty normal. Out of the same 100, I would find about 85 attractive enough that if they wanted to blow me I would be thrilled with it.
There are always going to be way more men interested in sex with you than interested in a relationship. I am sure there are some sex negative guys who discount your potential because they think you are easy, but I don't think that is what is happening most of the time.
If I went on a first date with 100 women, I would probably have a spark with about 10-20 of them to want to see them again. Pretty normal. Out of the same 100, I would find about 85 attractive enough that if they wanted to blow me I would be thrilled with it.
There are always going to be way more men interested in sex with you than interested in a relationship. I am sure there are some sex negative guys who discount your potential because they think you are easy, but I don't think that is what is happening most of the time.
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@5
Bingo. P.S. a guy doesn't have to be a self-identified feminist to be sex-positive. Just sayin'.
Bingo. P.S. a guy doesn't have to be a self-identified feminist to be sex-positive. Just sayin'.
7
"Or, more generously, maybe these men think going too fast just speaks to poor judgment (although straight men rarely apply that logic to themselves)."
As a straight guy, some things that go through my head when a woman wants to hop into bed quickly:
- Does she respect me as a person, or just see me as a convenient penis?
- Will she respect herself tomorrow?
- Why the rush? Is she planning on "Wham, bang, thank you man"?
- What if anything is she after besides sex?
Notice that most of these questions are similar to what some straight women think about guys who are trying to hop into bed quickly too. That doesn't mean I necessarily say no, but it does get me wondering.
As a straight guy, some things that go through my head when a woman wants to hop into bed quickly:
- Does she respect me as a person, or just see me as a convenient penis?
- Will she respect herself tomorrow?
- Why the rush? Is she planning on "Wham, bang, thank you man"?
- What if anything is she after besides sex?
Notice that most of these questions are similar to what some straight women think about guys who are trying to hop into bed quickly too. That doesn't mean I necessarily say no, but it does get me wondering.
8
So if I am unwilling to take it in return, do I forfeit any right to do my boyfriend with a strap-on?
Your boyfriend isn't trying to guilt you into letting him ass-fuck you. He's simply hinting that he'd like you to play with his ass.
Men's asses have something like a bajillion nerve endings. For a lot of guys, getting pegged, rimmed, or butt-plugged is highly pleasurable in and of itself.
My suggestion - soap his ass up in the shower sometime and then surprise him with a generous rim job. Do that and I guarantee he's yours forever. You might even find yourself turned on by doing something so transgressive.
Your boyfriend isn't trying to guilt you into letting him ass-fuck you. He's simply hinting that he'd like you to play with his ass.
Men's asses have something like a bajillion nerve endings. For a lot of guys, getting pegged, rimmed, or butt-plugged is highly pleasurable in and of itself.
My suggestion - soap his ass up in the shower sometime and then surprise him with a generous rim job. Do that and I guarantee he's yours forever. You might even find yourself turned on by doing something so transgressive.
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Thanks, #4.
Sounds like you just read that in 2003 all individual state sodomy laws were overruled by national law, achieving all at once what it would have been really expensive and annoying to do individually. But alas, they didn't get the blue laws. I could not drink at my family reunion. >.<
I believe also there are a few remaining states where "consensual battery" is a bit of a touchy subject legally.
Sounds like you just read that in 2003 all individual state sodomy laws were overruled by national law, achieving all at once what it would have been really expensive and annoying to do individually. But alas, they didn't get the blue laws. I could not drink at my family reunion. >.<
I believe also there are a few remaining states where "consensual battery" is a bit of a touchy subject legally.
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@7: The thing is, an overwhelming majority of women aren't like BLOW. They don't feel a need to have a some guy they just met put his cock in their mouth.
So, whatever meaning a guy assigns to this, his first thought is that she's acting very different from pretty much every woman he's met. Unusual behavior is often perceived as a red flag, by women and men alike.
I'll add that if an intense need to suck dick was the norm among women, BLOW wouldn't have the problems she's having. Women play as least as big a role in perpetuating madonna/whore bullshit as men.
So, whatever meaning a guy assigns to this, his first thought is that she's acting very different from pretty much every woman he's met. Unusual behavior is often perceived as a red flag, by women and men alike.
I'll add that if an intense need to suck dick was the norm among women, BLOW wouldn't have the problems she's having. Women play as least as big a role in perpetuating madonna/whore bullshit as men.
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IBS is kind of unclear on how reciprocity actually works.
If he wants to do something TO YOU (whether it's anal, tickling, or painting you with chocolate syrup), then he should be willing to have it done to him first, a) as a sort of gesture of good faith, b) so that he knows what the stakes are, and c) he has a better idea of how what he is doing TO YOU feels (i.e, whether it is in fact enjoyable or whether he is likely to hurt you with what he just thought of doing to you.)
If he wants you to do something TO HIM, and you agree to do that to him (i.e., for him), you don't owe him squat in the area of reciprocal access to your nether regions. You already fulfilled a request for him; the debt is, if anything, already incurred on his side, and if there are evensies that need evening-up, now it's your turn to say exactly what you want from him.
There isn't any evidence from the letter that IBS's boyfriend wants access to her anus. He says he will go play by himself if she isn't interested. That means what he wants from her is for her to service his ass, not vice-versa. Unless there is something LW left out of the letter, servicing him isn't going to make him want to "service" her.
Then there is the fact that you get to refuse what you don't want to have done to your body, period. It's your body, not his, period. The fact that IBS has IBS gives her reasons the coloration of medical necessity, and therefore seems somehow of greater moral authority; but the reality is that whatever constitutes A Fetish Too Far is a deeply personal boundary, and your partner violates it at his/her peril. If you find yourself resenting your partner because he/she did something to you that pushes your buttons, that absolutely is a wound in the relationship that will fester over time and ultimately kill it.
More...
If he wants to do something TO YOU (whether it's anal, tickling, or painting you with chocolate syrup), then he should be willing to have it done to him first, a) as a sort of gesture of good faith, b) so that he knows what the stakes are, and c) he has a better idea of how what he is doing TO YOU feels (i.e, whether it is in fact enjoyable or whether he is likely to hurt you with what he just thought of doing to you.)
If he wants you to do something TO HIM, and you agree to do that to him (i.e., for him), you don't owe him squat in the area of reciprocal access to your nether regions. You already fulfilled a request for him; the debt is, if anything, already incurred on his side, and if there are evensies that need evening-up, now it's your turn to say exactly what you want from him.
There isn't any evidence from the letter that IBS's boyfriend wants access to her anus. He says he will go play by himself if she isn't interested. That means what he wants from her is for her to service his ass, not vice-versa. Unless there is something LW left out of the letter, servicing him isn't going to make him want to "service" her.
Then there is the fact that you get to refuse what you don't want to have done to your body, period. It's your body, not his, period. The fact that IBS has IBS gives her reasons the coloration of medical necessity, and therefore seems somehow of greater moral authority; but the reality is that whatever constitutes A Fetish Too Far is a deeply personal boundary, and your partner violates it at his/her peril. If you find yourself resenting your partner because he/she did something to you that pushes your buttons, that absolutely is a wound in the relationship that will fester over time and ultimately kill it.
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@7 Really?
Here's what goes through this guy's head when a hot dude/gal wants to hop into bed quickly: do I have some condoms?
(Actually I'd have to check w/ my partner first. I get hit on by dudes way more than by women so actually, if a gal wanted to blow me as soon as we'd gone out for coffee, I'd be like whoa, really?)
@5 has it right -- I meet plenty of people who I'd like to get to "know" biblically but only a subset of these do I really want to get to know. This is not because I'm sex negative and certainly not sexist.
Here's what goes through this guy's head when a hot dude/gal wants to hop into bed quickly: do I have some condoms?
(Actually I'd have to check w/ my partner first. I get hit on by dudes way more than by women so actually, if a gal wanted to blow me as soon as we'd gone out for coffee, I'd be like whoa, really?)
@5 has it right -- I meet plenty of people who I'd like to get to "know" biblically but only a subset of these do I really want to get to know. This is not because I'm sex negative and certainly not sexist.
13
I love you Dan, but a dose of actual logic may be in order:
1) "We couldn't have come so far, so fast if Folsom or pride parades were harming our movement." Saying it doesn't make it true. It's very possible that we experience progress despite Folsom.
2) It's no coincidence that things like Folsom are in gay friendly towns. Yes, but you have the causality backwards.
1) "We couldn't have come so far, so fast if Folsom or pride parades were harming our movement." Saying it doesn't make it true. It's very possible that we experience progress despite Folsom.
2) It's no coincidence that things like Folsom are in gay friendly towns. Yes, but you have the causality backwards.
14
Ms Driasis - They do still have sodomy laws, though I forget how many are same-sex-only. I don't think even a single state has taken such a law off the books since the Supreme Court decision that rendered them unconstitutional was announced. I think the proposal to take such a law off the books was floated in one or two states, but the idea went over about as well as Oscar Wilde's being given a posthumous free pardon did in the UK. As soon as the Give Ruth Bader Ginsburg Cancer Prayer Circle finally succeeds in the next administration and a new SC Justice is appointed who will preside over the rollback, it will come.
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When I was a little kid I'd see Dykes on Bikes and drag queens on TV or around town (or at my mom's Alano Club),and even though I grew up in a very homophobic family, I feel like they planted this seed inside my mind that grew regardless of the hostile environment outside... I was always secretly enamored with them. When I was ready to get over myself and relearn or unlearn all this bullshit I'd grown up with, I felt like I had them to thank for keeping this buried part of my heart alive and nourished. To this day I get giddy crushes on burly women riding Harleys and queens with their broad shoulders packed tightly into lingerie.
I guess my point at BDSM is that why do things need to be politically relevant to have a fuck ton of value? Can't things just be fun? Or awesome? Does a good time need relevance? If fun is irrelevant, the enemy has already won.
I guess my point at BDSM is that why do things need to be politically relevant to have a fuck ton of value? Can't things just be fun? Or awesome? Does a good time need relevance? If fun is irrelevant, the enemy has already won.
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@14: They're still on the books, but were rendered unenforcible. There are still laws on the books banning sneezing in public lest you scare the carriage horses, and a "monster" can't enter the state of Nebraska, but it doesn't matter.
Striking a law from the books is actually such a pain in the butt that irrelevant or outdated laws just sit there, usually. THAT SAID, there are still several states I don't think are yet suitable for the habitation of gay folks.
Striking a law from the books is actually such a pain in the butt that irrelevant or outdated laws just sit there, usually. THAT SAID, there are still several states I don't think are yet suitable for the habitation of gay folks.
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@8.
If he is into his own behind, he will be into hers as well. Her question is well founded, even if a little ahead of the game.
If he is into his own behind, he will be into hers as well. Her question is well founded, even if a little ahead of the game.
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@17- Not necessarily. I have had the reverse. Guy interested in mine, but never expressed any interest in his own. So I could see how it could go the other way.
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Ms Dru - A law that's only one Supreme Court justice away from being enforceable, and which has a sizable constituency wanting it enforced, isn't that completely a dead letter. After all, all those prayer circles wishing cancer on Justice Ginsburg aren't doing it solely for the theoretical betterment of the populace. They want to cram as many sodomites as they can into prison (among other things), and their leaders who are pointedly keeping the laws on the books want those of us sufficiently unfortunate to live there to live in fear.
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Re Folsom:
Berlin Folsom Europe coincides often with school start in Berlin. School start for 1st grade is on Saturdays.
I think it is quite sweet when families celebrating their child starting school end up at the same Bratwurst stands as the last stragglers of last night, early starters of Folsom in their leather chaps.
And it teaches both sides tolerance.
Berlin Folsom Europe coincides often with school start in Berlin. School start for 1st grade is on Saturdays.
I think it is quite sweet when families celebrating their child starting school end up at the same Bratwurst stands as the last stragglers of last night, early starters of Folsom in their leather chaps.
And it teaches both sides tolerance.
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As a person with IBS, I feel obliged to tell the other people with IBS, that anal sex was a great hurdle for me to overcome (I’m actually known to have said “I will do pretty much anything, except receive anal”) because of my wacky intestines/anal area. However upon realizing the thrill of the thus-created taboo, and the fantastical amount of nerve endings I appear to have there, I have slowly (very very slowly, and with lots of patience and lube) worked my way up (or my boyfriend has..literally…he he) to a place where receiving anal isn’t something I do for him, it’s something I do for me. And yes, santorum may or may not be there and if you can’t stand that, then that’s that. But really, isn’t mind-blowing orgasms just SO worth it? And besides, there IS soap (to clean it all away).
But the best part is: somehow this has put me at peace with my ass, or rather intestine, colon and anus which used to be at war with me pretty much every day. I think it may have been a psychological release that something that has given me so much grief now is giving me so much pleasure. I don’t know, But my IBS is( strangely) much better; and that’s to say nothing of my sex life. Mama mia!
I’m not saying it will be the same for anyone else, but for me, this was really a sunshine story.
But the best part is: somehow this has put me at peace with my ass, or rather intestine, colon and anus which used to be at war with me pretty much every day. I think it may have been a psychological release that something that has given me so much grief now is giving me so much pleasure. I don’t know, But my IBS is( strangely) much better; and that’s to say nothing of my sex life. Mama mia!
I’m not saying it will be the same for anyone else, but for me, this was really a sunshine story.
22
As a person with IBS, I feel obliged to tell the other people with IBS, that anal sex was a great hurdle for me to overcome (I’m actually known to have said “I will do pretty much anything, except receive anal”) because of my wacky intestines/anal area. However upon realizing the thrill of the thus-created taboo, and the fantastical amount of nerve endings I appear to have there, I have slowly (very very slowly, and with lots of patience and lube) worked my way up (or my boyfriend has..literally…he he) to a place where receiving anal isn’t something I do for him, it’s something I do for me. And yes, santorum may or may not be there and if you can’t stand that, then that’s that. But really, isn’t mind-blowing orgasms just SO worth it? And besides, there IS soap (to clean it all away).
But the best part is: somehow this has put me at peace with my ass, or rather intestine, colon and anus which used to be at war with me pretty much every day. I think it may have been a psychological release that something that has given me so much grief now is giving me so much pleasure. I don’t know. But my IBS is( strangely) much better; and that’s to say nothing of my sex life. Mama mia!
I’m not saying it will be the same for anyone else, but for me, this was really a sunshine story.
But the best part is: somehow this has put me at peace with my ass, or rather intestine, colon and anus which used to be at war with me pretty much every day. I think it may have been a psychological release that something that has given me so much grief now is giving me so much pleasure. I don’t know. But my IBS is( strangely) much better; and that’s to say nothing of my sex life. Mama mia!
I’m not saying it will be the same for anyone else, but for me, this was really a sunshine story.
23
@6: It's been my experience that the worst lovers are selfish lovers. It's also been my experience that a straight guy who doesn't get feminism is permanently arrested in a very adolescent and selfish view of the world and people. Just sayin'.
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re: THW
I have no problem with men thinking this way, assuming, of course, that they don't accept the first date blowjob. If they get blown on the first date they can shut the fuck up about "what kind of girls" would do that.
I have no problem with men thinking this way, assuming, of course, that they don't accept the first date blowjob. If they get blown on the first date they can shut the fuck up about "what kind of girls" would do that.
25
@12
"Here's what goes through this guy's head when a hot dude/gal wants to hop into bed quickly: do I have some condoms?"
True and it sounds like no one is turning BLOW down either, so this much is correct.
But the question is about what happens AFTER blowing a guy too quickly. Like post #10 stated, anything that deviates from the norm is seen as a red flag. So since a quick bj is typically outside the norm, its not understood. In many cases it just might be that the guy then thinks BLOW is only looking for a hookup, to which they will happily oblige.
"Here's what goes through this guy's head when a hot dude/gal wants to hop into bed quickly: do I have some condoms?"
True and it sounds like no one is turning BLOW down either, so this much is correct.
But the question is about what happens AFTER blowing a guy too quickly. Like post #10 stated, anything that deviates from the norm is seen as a red flag. So since a quick bj is typically outside the norm, its not understood. In many cases it just might be that the guy then thinks BLOW is only looking for a hookup, to which they will happily oblige.
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@23
There's a difference between "not getting" feminism, and choosing not to identify as a feminist. I don't identify as a feminist myself.
There's a difference between "not getting" feminism, and choosing not to identify as a feminist. I don't identify as a feminist myself.
27
I think THW might be overstating things a little bit when they guys that get a bj early and don't want a LTR are "harboring contempt."
It just may be that for them those guys, the relationship gets framed as a merely hookup early on and they have problems breaking out of that mindset.
It just may be that for them those guys, the relationship gets framed as a merely hookup early on and they have problems breaking out of that mindset.
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@27
It's not actually hard to break out of that mindset if you develop emotional chemistry and affection for the person you're fucking, trust.
Honestly, it's not complicated. Dating (with or without blowjobs) typically involves a lot of duds unless you (or the people you go after) have no standards and are desperate to be with someone. Whether or not you give head on the first date, most first dates won't develop into relationships. Homegirl's just reading too much into things because of her frigid friends.
It's not actually hard to break out of that mindset if you develop emotional chemistry and affection for the person you're fucking, trust.
Honestly, it's not complicated. Dating (with or without blowjobs) typically involves a lot of duds unless you (or the people you go after) have no standards and are desperate to be with someone. Whether or not you give head on the first date, most first dates won't develop into relationships. Homegirl's just reading too much into things because of her frigid friends.
29
@23: I think the key there is 6's "self-identified feminist." The word "feminist" has taken on dozens of connotations, and some people prefer to abandon the word rather than append a paragraph of "by which I mean I believe A, B, and C, but not D or E. On F I take a nuanced..."
I gave up in 2008, and it was not because of the connotations brought by Rush, but exasperation with explaining that possessing ovaries did not obligate me to vote for all candidates with ovaries.
I gave up in 2008, and it was not because of the connotations brought by Rush, but exasperation with explaining that possessing ovaries did not obligate me to vote for all candidates with ovaries.
30
Re last week's letter from BLOW, I did get the idea that while she framed blowjobs as just so hard to resist giving as soon as she got turned on, she rather expected they should induce an obligation on the blowee's part to call her again.
I agree with 5 et al on the numbers game: the number of men who will accept an enthusiastically offered blowjob is much greater than the number who will feel a spark with BLOW that they want to pursue with more dates. In which case cutting out the first date blowjobs might be a good way for her to better evaluate where both their heads are at--she seems to be mixing up immediate sexual arousal with long-term multi-level sparkage.
I agree with 5 et al on the numbers game: the number of men who will accept an enthusiastically offered blowjob is much greater than the number who will feel a spark with BLOW that they want to pursue with more dates. In which case cutting out the first date blowjobs might be a good way for her to better evaluate where both their heads are at--she seems to be mixing up immediate sexual arousal with long-term multi-level sparkage.
31
@28
"It's not actually hard to break out of that mindset if you develop emotional chemistry and affection for the person you're fucking"
Though, they need to be looking to develop emotional chemistry, and that may not happen if the guy only thinks of the relationship as a hookup. Furthermore, the emotional chemistry could have easily been lacking from BLOW herself. There's certainly nothing virtuous about waiting to give a bj, however, it may force people, that otherwise wouldn't have, to develop the emotional chemistry necessary for a LTR. In that case, it might be an effective for SOME PEOPLE in initiating a LTR.
Though my point was more so that there are other reasons than "harboring contempt" for this predicament.
"It's not actually hard to break out of that mindset if you develop emotional chemistry and affection for the person you're fucking"
Though, they need to be looking to develop emotional chemistry, and that may not happen if the guy only thinks of the relationship as a hookup. Furthermore, the emotional chemistry could have easily been lacking from BLOW herself. There's certainly nothing virtuous about waiting to give a bj, however, it may force people, that otherwise wouldn't have, to develop the emotional chemistry necessary for a LTR. In that case, it might be an effective for SOME PEOPLE in initiating a LTR.
Though my point was more so that there are other reasons than "harboring contempt" for this predicament.
33
Turnabout is only relevant when one partner wants the other partner to try something new. E.g. if the LW wanted to peg her guy and he wasn't sure. As it is, it's something he wants/might want, so she's under no obligation whatsoever to offer her ass up before offering to do things to his ass if he chooses.
35
Dan! You facebook posted your column RIGHT after I posted this, this morning about Folsom:
My first post since Folsom Street Fair! Let me tell ya! I love Folsom, actually, I love most kink oriented events. Why? because at these events I have experiences that show us that we are bigger than us as individuals. Folsom is a chance to celebrate ourselves. There are people from ALL walks of life...everyone has a story. Everyone might be there for a different reason. Everyone looks a l...ittle bit different. People seem to see past this. Folsom really feels like people celebrating PEOPLE. Gay or Straight, Black or White, Fat or Thin, Naked or Fully Clothed....its just people expressing themselves and celebrating the "people-ness" of each other.
Is this my rose colored glasses view of Folsom? Maybe, but honestly when I step back and look at it from a perspective outside of kink, bdsm, sex, it really comes down to: we are people and we are gonna have a good time.
My first post since Folsom Street Fair! Let me tell ya! I love Folsom, actually, I love most kink oriented events. Why? because at these events I have experiences that show us that we are bigger than us as individuals. Folsom is a chance to celebrate ourselves. There are people from ALL walks of life...everyone has a story. Everyone might be there for a different reason. Everyone looks a l...ittle bit different. People seem to see past this. Folsom really feels like people celebrating PEOPLE. Gay or Straight, Black or White, Fat or Thin, Naked or Fully Clothed....its just people expressing themselves and celebrating the "people-ness" of each other.
Is this my rose colored glasses view of Folsom? Maybe, but honestly when I step back and look at it from a perspective outside of kink, bdsm, sex, it really comes down to: we are people and we are gonna have a good time.
37
I'm with #5 - there are not many blowjobs I would turn down if I was already interested enough to go on a date. Heck I'd go for a blowjob at the end of a crappy date. But wanting to go on a second date depends on more than, was there a blowjob.
38
HELP!! SavageLovers -- Okay, off topic, but need help. I put up a craigslist ad for fun, not racy, pretty funny. I got an ad back FROM MY MARRIED FATHER - his face is cutoff, I recognize his scar and bathroom.
WHAT THE FUCK DO I DO? We live together for another month, until I start a new job. I can't tolerate this. Help!!!
WHAT THE FUCK DO I DO? We live together for another month, until I start a new job. I can't tolerate this. Help!!!
39
IBS, I agree that your GENUINE MEDICAL CONDITION trumps your BF ever wanting to play with your ass if that is what you want. THAT IS NOT SELFISH.
You are not being selfish as long as you are not requiring him to do something that you would not do-- You are not requiring him to receive you pegging him; it sounds like the pegging is his idea already.
If he ever says "I *let* you peg me; you should reciprocate and let me fuck your ass!" then you need to DTMFA. I dated someone who's attitude was "you should ignore your medical condition and DO AS I SAY!" I didn't DTMFA quick enough.
You are not being selfish as long as you are not requiring him to do something that you would not do-- You are not requiring him to receive you pegging him; it sounds like the pegging is his idea already.
If he ever says "I *let* you peg me; you should reciprocate and let me fuck your ass!" then you need to DTMFA. I dated someone who's attitude was "you should ignore your medical condition and DO AS I SAY!" I didn't DTMFA quick enough.
42
@38, spend a lot of time out of the house. Unless you want to have that conversation with your father (or your mom/stepmom), then say nothing and cultivate friends with couches.
43
@Ms.11: Ignore the ad--don't write back. Lots of people don't respond. Then tell yourself that yor dad was playing a joke on you, somehow. Ignore every and any thought about why he was on craigslist in the first place.
Try not to think about it.
Try not to think about it.
44
@38 Yeah, you put up a Craigslist ad FOR FUN. Either you have the worst sense of humor I've seen outside of youtube comments or you're making sh*t up.
45
@38 any direct discussion will make things extremely awkward/strained for the near future at the very best so either stfu til you move next month, or figure out somewhere else you can crash and have the direct discussion (or leave/email him a note if you prefer him to read, absorb, and then confront him later). Bottom line though, you do not want to be stuck living in the same house and have that kind of chat out with nowhere to hide after..
46
Another thought..
A first date bj is all about context. If BLOW's intent/expectations about any relationship are left ambiguous, then the assumption behind her eagerness might be that she's only looking for a hookup. She may not be clearly conveying that she is looking for a LTR. That might be an oversight on her part in that she doesn't realize that message isn't getting out there. Or it might be intentional because she doesn't want to scare away any potential willing penis because she loves sucking them so much.
Since I read the letter last week, I've wondered where/how she's meeting the guys she sees and how the first date is structured. If she's meeting guys at bars, parties, gym, etc. and the first date revolves around hanging out at someone's apartment and then she gives a bj, it essentially screams "I'm just looking for a hookup." In that case, its not the guy at all, she's just not being clear with her message. It might be that she's looking to start the relationship casual (because she can easily do that) and have it grow into something more. If that's the case she still needs to be upfront about what she's ultimately looking for.
If she's meeting guys on dating sites (meaning she's upfront about her desire for a LTR and perhaps having a few email/phone convos prior to the date) or at the very least going for a more formal date structure (dinner and a movie) with discussions about long term dating that just so happens to end in a goodnight bj, then she probably needs to reevaluate her taste in guys or her own personal dating style more so than the timing of the bj. Though, delaying the bj might allow her to more thoroughly evaluate the guys and herself.
A first date bj is all about context. If BLOW's intent/expectations about any relationship are left ambiguous, then the assumption behind her eagerness might be that she's only looking for a hookup. She may not be clearly conveying that she is looking for a LTR. That might be an oversight on her part in that she doesn't realize that message isn't getting out there. Or it might be intentional because she doesn't want to scare away any potential willing penis because she loves sucking them so much.
Since I read the letter last week, I've wondered where/how she's meeting the guys she sees and how the first date is structured. If she's meeting guys at bars, parties, gym, etc. and the first date revolves around hanging out at someone's apartment and then she gives a bj, it essentially screams "I'm just looking for a hookup." In that case, its not the guy at all, she's just not being clear with her message. It might be that she's looking to start the relationship casual (because she can easily do that) and have it grow into something more. If that's the case she still needs to be upfront about what she's ultimately looking for.
If she's meeting guys on dating sites (meaning she's upfront about her desire for a LTR and perhaps having a few email/phone convos prior to the date) or at the very least going for a more formal date structure (dinner and a movie) with discussions about long term dating that just so happens to end in a goodnight bj, then she probably needs to reevaluate her taste in guys or her own personal dating style more so than the timing of the bj. Though, delaying the bj might allow her to more thoroughly evaluate the guys and herself.
47
I'm a gay man and all for gay marriage, but let's face it--those in the LGBT movement who've been warning that making the push for gay marriage the #1 item on the agenda would create incentives for gays and lesbians to aspire to more traditional lifestyles and dissociate themselves from those who can't or don't want to fit themselves into straight models have a point. Whether BDSF is a straight person offering helpful advice cloaked in a rhetorical question or LGBT himself/herself, the suggestion, from a Savage Love reader no less, is clear: disavow the nasties if you want to get with the decent people.
48
Totally agree with the Folsom Street Fair answer Dan!
A gay friend of mine took me down to the fair a few years ago, (I'm a straight male and not kink/BDSM inclined), and I enjoyed the heck out of it! I even got a Folsom Street Fair T-Shirt to take home and still have it.
For me it was just fun seeing the other side of things and meeting interesting people.
A gay friend of mine took me down to the fair a few years ago, (I'm a straight male and not kink/BDSM inclined), and I enjoyed the heck out of it! I even got a Folsom Street Fair T-Shirt to take home and still have it.
For me it was just fun seeing the other side of things and meeting interesting people.
49
Totally agree with the Folsom Street Fair answer Dan!
A gay friend of mine took me down to the fair a few years ago, (I'm a straight male and not kink/BDSM inclined), and I enjoyed the heck out of it! I even got a Folsom Street Fair T-Shirt to take home and still have it.
For me it was just fun seeing the other side of things and meeting interesting people.
A gay friend of mine took me down to the fair a few years ago, (I'm a straight male and not kink/BDSM inclined), and I enjoyed the heck out of it! I even got a Folsom Street Fair T-Shirt to take home and still have it.
For me it was just fun seeing the other side of things and meeting interesting people.
50
Those 'decent people' are often secret 'nasties', Imjustsayin @ 47. I see no reason to bow to the uptight amoungst us - if we did, we would never do anything.
51
For the record, even if there are sodomy laws still on the statute books, if the act is consensual between adults, they are protected by the constitutional right to privacy. The courts will decline to get involved in people's sexual relationships provided the behavior isn't breaking other laws like public decency, etc. The Supreme Court found that there isn't a legitimate public interest being protected by criminalizing consensual sexual acts, and that a person's right to privacy in the home covers matters of personal relationships that occur in the privacy of the home.
52
@38, you don't know what agreements your dad and (presumably) stepmom have. This is just like stumbling on his porn stash on the computer. Icky, but fundamentally none of your business. Focus on your own life and on making sure you're as ready as you can be to move out. And congrats on your new job!
53
@38 I think I;m on pretty firm ground here when I say this is a time when you SHOULD NOT give a BJ on the first date.
54
By the way, Scalia's dissent in Lawrence v. Texas states that there is no legal basis for a state to prohibit gay marriage if they decided the case the way they did. Of course, he saw that as a bad thing.
55
@1: You don't *seriously* believe that a retraction of that study will make it go away, do you? The Ragnerus study was retracted, yet haters still use it as an argument.
As an added bonus, as you say, the process was corrupt. The peer review was corrupt. The entire study was theory-in-search-of-evidence. Asking nicely (or even endless hordes demanding) to have such a thing deleted from existence isn't going to happen. We're "the enemy" that they're using this weapon against. They're not going to stop using it because we say it's not fair. They're just going to say "It's working!"
As an added bonus, as you say, the process was corrupt. The peer review was corrupt. The entire study was theory-in-search-of-evidence. Asking nicely (or even endless hordes demanding) to have such a thing deleted from existence isn't going to happen. We're "the enemy" that they're using this weapon against. They're not going to stop using it because we say it's not fair. They're just going to say "It's working!"
56
@THW: Wait----sex-positive feminist men still exist on this planet??
Really?? Then it truly must be something wrong with me, I guess.
Where are they? My guess is that they're currently
in hiding what with all the Republicans and their equally evil
right-wing neofascist allies running amok.
Although I do agree---BJs on the first date seem more sexually aggressive than assertive. But it goes both ways: I'd be a bit put off by any guy who wanted to fuck me on the first date, too.
Really?? Then it truly must be something wrong with me, I guess.
Where are they? My guess is that they're currently
in hiding what with all the Republicans and their equally evil
right-wing neofascist allies running amok.
Although I do agree---BJs on the first date seem more sexually aggressive than assertive. But it goes both ways: I'd be a bit put off by any guy who wanted to fuck me on the first date, too.
58
IMO, what's unusual about BLOW is that she's a straight woman who really really likes giving head for its own sake. That's unusual. It makes her a special little snowflake. Most women are OK with giving head, lots of women *like* giving head (but not as much as they like intercourse), but few women seem to like it as much as BLOW does.
All other things being equal, sooner or later BLOW will blow some guy who really really likes getting head - maybe even more than he likes intercourse. He'll keep coming back for more & end up in an LTR.
Simple & honest.
IMO, what's unusual about BLOW is that she's a straight woman who really really likes giving head for its own sake. That's unusual. It makes her a special little snowflake. Most women are OK with giving head, lots of women *like* giving head (but not as much as they like intercourse), but few women seem to like it as much as BLOW does.
All other things being equal, sooner or later BLOW will blow some guy who really really likes getting head - maybe even more than he likes intercourse. He'll keep coming back for more & end up in an LTR.
Simple & honest.
59
I agree, orgasms of any kind on the first date seem really crass if you're hoping for a long term deal. I think it's excusable if he/she is a long term coworker/friend who you've been dying to bang, assuming you ask permission. Still, I think it's better to err on the side of classiness.
As for IBS and anal play: when done right it's much more comfortable than any of the firey craps you'll take throughout the day. If your empty and showered, you'll be a lot more "open" to it. Like #22, my ass feels stronger for it, not worse. But then, your man isn't pressuring you anyway, so have fun with his butt.
As for IBS and anal play: when done right it's much more comfortable than any of the firey craps you'll take throughout the day. If your empty and showered, you'll be a lot more "open" to it. Like #22, my ass feels stronger for it, not worse. But then, your man isn't pressuring you anyway, so have fun with his butt.
60
@BDSF: "Or do you think that in this time when we are fighting for civil rights and equality that [Folsom Street] does more harm than good?"
This just proves that gays themselves can be as homophobic and bigoted as anybody else. The big irony here is of course how BDSF and the many like-minded gay people do not realize the contradiction and hypocrisy in pretending to be concerned with civil rights while denouncing the exercise of those rights by the Folsom participants (and by the drag queens, by the non-fem lesbians, by the fem guys, by the non-monogamous, by the promiscuous, by the Grindr hooker uppers, the circuit partiers, the sex club goers; you name it.) They won't be happy until we are all conservatively dressed monogamous straight-acting married suburban churchgoers who vote Republican, just so we don't scare the straights.
In other words, there are people like BDSF out there (who often see themselves as great gay rights proponents) who want us to give up all our rights so that we can get rights. We shouldn't have any freedoms just so you can have the freedom to marry. Thanks, but no thanks.
This just proves that gays themselves can be as homophobic and bigoted as anybody else. The big irony here is of course how BDSF and the many like-minded gay people do not realize the contradiction and hypocrisy in pretending to be concerned with civil rights while denouncing the exercise of those rights by the Folsom participants (and by the drag queens, by the non-fem lesbians, by the fem guys, by the non-monogamous, by the promiscuous, by the Grindr hooker uppers, the circuit partiers, the sex club goers; you name it.) They won't be happy until we are all conservatively dressed monogamous straight-acting married suburban churchgoers who vote Republican, just so we don't scare the straights.
In other words, there are people like BDSF out there (who often see themselves as great gay rights proponents) who want us to give up all our rights so that we can get rights. We shouldn't have any freedoms just so you can have the freedom to marry. Thanks, but no thanks.
61
As a guy who enjoys it when sex slowly builds up over the first few dates, if THW can't wait all of two dates to engage in oral sex without accusing me of misogyny, she deserves the loser she'll end up with. Whiny, impatient bitch.
62
Just for the record, one can be gay and still be turned off by the drag queens, dykes on bikes, and religion-mocking that tend to dominate gay pride parades, without being condescendingly called a "concern troll".
My own experience and those of friends growing up is that we were afraid of coming out because we were embarrassed that our friends and families would associate us with the most flamboyant people visible at pride events.
I concede their bravery in putting their sexual expression out there. But at the same time it does not help closeted young gays if society believes that most gay men are effeminate cross dressers.
And why the gratuitous Mary Cheney insult? If someone disagrees with most of the Democratic platform on primary presidential concerns like the economy and foreign affairs, why should they support it just because of one issue like same-sex marriage? Dan thinks his insults validate him as a gay activist when all they do is validate him as a partisan Democrat.
My own experience and those of friends growing up is that we were afraid of coming out because we were embarrassed that our friends and families would associate us with the most flamboyant people visible at pride events.
I concede their bravery in putting their sexual expression out there. But at the same time it does not help closeted young gays if society believes that most gay men are effeminate cross dressers.
And why the gratuitous Mary Cheney insult? If someone disagrees with most of the Democratic platform on primary presidential concerns like the economy and foreign affairs, why should they support it just because of one issue like same-sex marriage? Dan thinks his insults validate him as a gay activist when all they do is validate him as a partisan Democrat.
63
#17: "If he is into his own behind, he will be into hers as well."
What kind of nonsense is that? Does every straight man who wants to fuck his girlfriend anally also must want to be pegged? Did you ever hear of "tops" and "bottoms" in gay relationships? I can go on and on with examples where people do not like done to them what they like to do to others sexually, and vice versa.
What kind of nonsense is that? Does every straight man who wants to fuck his girlfriend anally also must want to be pegged? Did you ever hear of "tops" and "bottoms" in gay relationships? I can go on and on with examples where people do not like done to them what they like to do to others sexually, and vice versa.
64
The woman who always sucks cock on the 1st date is in the same boat with the common sleep-around, the slut, the nymphomaniac. The guy who dates her feels competition from all the cocks, past and future. He doesn't think he can change her. The woman often has emotional trauma. Not great ground for an LTR.
65
@59 "orgasms of any kind on the first date seem really crass if you're hoping for a long term deal."
Huh. First dates come in all kinds. I'm with the people saying that the odds of any first date leading to more dates is so low that you can't blame the sex for the lack of serious interest.
Huh. First dates come in all kinds. I'm with the people saying that the odds of any first date leading to more dates is so low that you can't blame the sex for the lack of serious interest.
66
@21: That's an interesting story. Given that IBD is thought to be a caused by the immune system targeting healthy cells, I wonder if introducing semen relieves symptoms by giving your immune system something else to focus on, so to speak, similar to other treatments such fecal implants or introducing parasites.
67
I slept with a guy on the first date. Actually, it wasn't even a date. I believe I also gave him a blowjob. Two years later, I married him. The marriage lasted 23 years, and it didn't end because I had been too slutty when we met.
Also, thank you GymGoth @63. I've never heard a dumber logical fallacy than the one expressed by #17.
Also, thank you GymGoth @63. I've never heard a dumber logical fallacy than the one expressed by #17.
68
@44, it's entertaining to get the replies...usually. But, my fun is over! Thanks for the advice you guys.First inclination was to ignore it, and I am going to immediately put it out of my mind.
69
@GymGoth, nobody is finding fault with you just because you don't (or didn't) feel comfortable with drag queens, etc. What makes you a "concern troll" is your wish that those uppity drag queens, dykes on bykes, etc. would have rather stayed home just to make things easier or less embarrassing for you or for the other "conventionals". Well, I have news for you - no matter how hard you try to be conventional and to incorporate heteronormative mores such as marriage into your gay life, as long as you are gay there will always be plenty of people who wish that YOU wouldn't exist.
You have gay rights today because of a bunch of uppity drag queens at Stonewall, so have a little respect.
You have gay rights today because of a bunch of uppity drag queens at Stonewall, so have a little respect.
70
Ms Goth - If I were in a snarky mood, I'd be tempted to give the poke at Ms Cheney a Gertrude Award.
But, while your conclusion may do for you, Ms C is situated in such a way that some extra care is required. She has occupied a position, if not of power, than at least of peculiar privilege. While her house may be made of straw or sticks, none of the Big Bad Wolves have dared to blow it down out of deference to Daddy. Now, of course she is perfectly free to support the BBWs, but, given the vast quantity of straw and stick houses blown down by the BBWs, and the BBWs' own eagerness to embrace the label of straw/stick house destroyers par excellence (except, of course, hers), it seems reasonable to say that the onus is peculiarly on Ms C to blend her support for the BBWs with making it clear that blowing down houses is Problematic. How satisfactorily Ms C has done so is open to interpretation.
But, while your conclusion may do for you, Ms C is situated in such a way that some extra care is required. She has occupied a position, if not of power, than at least of peculiar privilege. While her house may be made of straw or sticks, none of the Big Bad Wolves have dared to blow it down out of deference to Daddy. Now, of course she is perfectly free to support the BBWs, but, given the vast quantity of straw and stick houses blown down by the BBWs, and the BBWs' own eagerness to embrace the label of straw/stick house destroyers par excellence (except, of course, hers), it seems reasonable to say that the onus is peculiarly on Ms C to blend her support for the BBWs with making it clear that blowing down houses is Problematic. How satisfactorily Ms C has done so is open to interpretation.
71
Ms J - Just out of curiosity, how much (if any) influence do you give gender? I've been giving women about three points on average, at least in bodies where they aren't really at critical mass, which, sadly, is usually a majority.
73
@58 "All other things being equal, sooner or later BLOW will blow some guy who really really likes getting head - maybe even more than he likes intercourse. He'll keep coming back for more & end up in an LTR."
Oh, I hope not. Too many crappy relationships are built on an expectation of, or a belief in an obligation to, reciprocate with a LTR.
There's sexual and emotional chemistry. Both are necessary (to different degrees with different people) for a relationship. Why deny the first by holding out for the second? A caveat: Be honest. If its just about the good sex, make sure your date understands that and isn't foregoing some other potential emotional hook-up because of some expectation of monogamous sack time.
And I hope THW is offered some quid pro quo for that first date BJ.
P.S. What do women think of a guy willing to go down on the first date?
Oh, I hope not. Too many crappy relationships are built on an expectation of, or a belief in an obligation to, reciprocate with a LTR.
There's sexual and emotional chemistry. Both are necessary (to different degrees with different people) for a relationship. Why deny the first by holding out for the second? A caveat: Be honest. If its just about the good sex, make sure your date understands that and isn't foregoing some other potential emotional hook-up because of some expectation of monogamous sack time.
And I hope THW is offered some quid pro quo for that first date BJ.
P.S. What do women think of a guy willing to go down on the first date?
74
As a masculine straight guy I have never observed a connection between the quality of a relationships and whether we had sex on a first, second…. or fifth date. I only have sex, when we have some chemistry, and I want to spend time with the date over the longer term.
As in other relationships, it’s about honest communication with yourself and people you connect with. I aspire to be aware of my emotions and kind towards others. And I love sex-positive women. Go BLOW ....... and THW!
As in other relationships, it’s about honest communication with yourself and people you connect with. I aspire to be aware of my emotions and kind towards others. And I love sex-positive women. Go BLOW ....... and THW!
75
By date I mean "sober dinner with a stranger". I wouldn't give head within 12 hours of meeting a new person, and I wouldn't want that done to me either, so I apply the Golden Rule.
'Course I was taught to make him "work for it" and that mystery is a turn-on. I typically put out after three successful "hang outs", hopefully that's not too much to ask. I like to know the mind I'm blowing.
'Course I was taught to make him "work for it" and that mystery is a turn-on. I typically put out after three successful "hang outs", hopefully that's not too much to ask. I like to know the mind I'm blowing.
76
I hate this madonna/whore bullshit. My ex would initiate sex and then call me a slut for enjoying it. It gave me such a complex against men that it took years and a lot of therapy to find a guy I could trust. I blew him on the second date and told my ex about it (we still talk). The ex said I had just "blown my chances" with this new guy. The ex was wrong. Me and the second-date bj BF have being dating six years now!
77
Nocute,
There's a big difference between getting intimate on a first date if there's chemistry, and a chronic behavior pattern.
There's a big difference between getting intimate on a first date if there's chemistry, and a chronic behavior pattern.
79
@73 For me, cunnilingus is more intimate than a BJ. BJs can be fun with clothes on, a lark in the park, even. But if we were in a bed with our clothes off on the first date, then it's hot for him to go down on me.
81
@78 (EricaP): I wish there was a "like" button on here. If there was, I would have punched it for that!
And for me, cunnilingus is more intimate than a blow job, too (not that I wouldn't do it on a first date). It's less the clothing vs. nakedness, as much as it is the vulnerability it puts me in. Plus, I've discovered that often a blow job is a discreet sex act, whereas cunnilingus is only one of a variety pack that occurs as a general rule. However, it has happened to me on a first date as well, and I was more than fine with that. I can't imagine thinking that any guy who'd sleep with or eat me would be, by virtue of those acts or behavior, an inappropriate partner. But that might be an issue that falls out along gender lines.
Hunter78 (@77) How do you know that wasn't or isn't a "chronic behavior pattern?" What if it is?
And for me, cunnilingus is more intimate than a blow job, too (not that I wouldn't do it on a first date). It's less the clothing vs. nakedness, as much as it is the vulnerability it puts me in. Plus, I've discovered that often a blow job is a discreet sex act, whereas cunnilingus is only one of a variety pack that occurs as a general rule. However, it has happened to me on a first date as well, and I was more than fine with that. I can't imagine thinking that any guy who'd sleep with or eat me would be, by virtue of those acts or behavior, an inappropriate partner. But that might be an issue that falls out along gender lines.
Hunter78 (@77) How do you know that wasn't or isn't a "chronic behavior pattern?" What if it is?
82
I don't know how many other straight men this applies to, but I probably wouldn't be comfortable with a first date blowing me. I'm one of those guys (hopefully not uncommon) who actually gets turned on by intimacy and a depth of connection with a sexual partner... I am very sexual, very kinky, and very open, but it takes some getting to know someone before I want their face on top of the most private and personal part of my body.
Unless there's tequila involved of course. ;)
Unless there's tequila involved of course. ;)
83
Agree with #5. Most straight men will gladly accept a blowjob from any woman with a mouth, but that doesn't mean we want to marry you.
84
@79: That's just a matter of logistics. With a skirt, sans panties, its not much different than the park BJ. Someone's head is in someone else's lap.
85
@29 - obligation to vote for ovaries because you've got them isn't feminism! Feminism is about choice, ignoring gender norms & treating everyone with equal respect. easy pease :)
86
I just want to point out that IBS is not IBD. Very different GI disorders. So while IBS leads to uncomfortable and even sometimes painful symptoms, it does not wreck the havoc, and sometimes fatal effects, that IBD does to the upper and lower GI (including the anus).
Just a clarification on something someone wrote above.
Just a clarification on something someone wrote above.
87
@73 A male willing to go down on me at the first date ? I wouldn't think anything bad about him. I would think that he had the hots for me, and I would appreciate that. But I would probably not let it happen.
I never have sex on the first meeting - I use it to check for red/green flags and for enough chemistry, and I need some time alone with myself to know whether I want to go ahead or not. Besides, lusting after someone, before any sex happens, is one of my great pleasures. Rushing sex would be missing out on that experience.
I usually have sex on the second meeting.
I never have sex on the first meeting - I use it to check for red/green flags and for enough chemistry, and I need some time alone with myself to know whether I want to go ahead or not. Besides, lusting after someone, before any sex happens, is one of my great pleasures. Rushing sex would be missing out on that experience.
I usually have sex on the second meeting.
88
@56 I'd be totally put off by a stranger who would demand sex from me on the first date.
But like EricaP, I never date ! When I agree to meet someone, I already know him a bit (not a stranger then) and it's mostly at lunch, because I like to chat afterwards.
I am not put off by guys who slightly broach the subject of sex, as long as it doesn't feel pushy - unless I have zero interest in the guy, from the start ; but then I don't accepted such lunches with guys I have no interest for.
But like EricaP, I never date ! When I agree to meet someone, I already know him a bit (not a stranger then) and it's mostly at lunch, because I like to chat afterwards.
I am not put off by guys who slightly broach the subject of sex, as long as it doesn't feel pushy - unless I have zero interest in the guy, from the start ; but then I don't accepted such lunches with guys I have no interest for.
89
@84, My point was not about logistics. I wouldn't let a first date go down on me in a semi-public place, whereas I have done a first-date BJ there.
@88, I do date -- but never "a sober dinner with a stranger." I might meet a stranger for coffee in the afternoon, but otherwise there's going to be alcohol involved.
@88, I do date -- but never "a sober dinner with a stranger." I might meet a stranger for coffee in the afternoon, but otherwise there's going to be alcohol involved.
90
IBS...ever hear of the shower? That's why God invented it (Noah had one installed on the Ark)...so that people squeamish about butt sex could have fun too!!!
Get some good silicone lube, soap & lube up, then have at it. Afterwards, dry off and go pound the fuck outta your boyfriend's tight ass.
Get some good silicone lube, soap & lube up, then have at it. Afterwards, dry off and go pound the fuck outta your boyfriend's tight ass.
91
@mydriasis
It is legal because of a US Supreme Court ruling, Lawrence vs Texas (?), and not because of some change in the "wacky states" as you put it...
It is legal because of a US Supreme Court ruling, Lawrence vs Texas (?), and not because of some change in the "wacky states" as you put it...
92
FYI, Folsom has for the last decade or so been about 50/50 gay/straight (well, 40 gay/40 straight/10 do you have a pulse?). This year it was clearly more straight than gay (and most depressingly lifestyle tourists--people who are doing kinky cosplay for the afternoon or just there to drink beer and look at the scenery).
As one of the (male) vendors put it, "I didn't get hit on once by a guy this year."
As one of the (male) vendors put it, "I didn't get hit on once by a guy this year."
93
EricaP@78: I was going to agree with you, but for different reasons. I think I've only once had a date with someone I wasn't at least acquainted with ahead of time (and then he was a friend of a friend). The whole assumption that everyone has a period of time in their lives when they date a bunch of strangers just seems kind of odd to me, like a holdover from Mary Tyler Moore days or something.
94
I wonder if the public masturbation circles at Folsom Street Fair are going too far. It's not adults-only event, AFAIK - you don't have to be 21 to get in.
And apart from the Fair, the Castro itself has naked people year round who are making a public statement about their right to go naked. Whether or not other people (gay or straight) want to see their junk on their way to the bus, or to the store, or taking their kids to school.
When I lived in the Castro in 2006 I didn't see this, but apparently it's been happening more now. I have mixed feelings, really.
The only place I've seen a horde of naked people was Burningman, all shapes and sizes, in an environment that allowed kids too - and it was OK there, at least for me.
Maybe if all public spaces (including my office) were truly clothing optional we'd all get used to it.
And apart from the Fair, the Castro itself has naked people year round who are making a public statement about their right to go naked. Whether or not other people (gay or straight) want to see their junk on their way to the bus, or to the store, or taking their kids to school.
When I lived in the Castro in 2006 I didn't see this, but apparently it's been happening more now. I have mixed feelings, really.
The only place I've seen a horde of naked people was Burningman, all shapes and sizes, in an environment that allowed kids too - and it was OK there, at least for me.
Maybe if all public spaces (including my office) were truly clothing optional we'd all get used to it.
95
Eirene@93: Me too, I had never had a date with a stranger until this new phase in my forties, and I agree that not everyone goes through such a phase. But someone like BLOW from last week is in such a phase, so it makes sense that the advice is targeted for her.
I think it might help BLOW to get to know more men through shared activities, rather than dating sites, so that by the time they're on their first "date," they already know each other pretty well and it's not such a shot in the dark.
I think it might help BLOW to get to know more men through shared activities, rather than dating sites, so that by the time they're on their first "date," they already know each other pretty well and it's not such a shot in the dark.
96
Nocute,
I assumed it wasn't chronic behavior on your side because you didn't imply it. There was no suggestion this was your typical behavior.
If it had been, my comments stand. When guys meet "easy women", they're glad for the sex, but typically don't pursue it as an ltr.
Many people have had it "click" on a 1st date (or whatever you want to call it), but the round-heeled woman rarely "gets lucky". Otoh, I believe most do escape eventually, but the prob on any given "date" is incredibly small.
If your experience is different, please share. Thanks.
I assumed it wasn't chronic behavior on your side because you didn't imply it. There was no suggestion this was your typical behavior.
If it had been, my comments stand. When guys meet "easy women", they're glad for the sex, but typically don't pursue it as an ltr.
Many people have had it "click" on a 1st date (or whatever you want to call it), but the round-heeled woman rarely "gets lucky". Otoh, I believe most do escape eventually, but the prob on any given "date" is incredibly small.
If your experience is different, please share. Thanks.
97
I hate having to explain my comments, but when I say the rh woman rarely gets lucky, I mean she rarely finds someone who cares about her.
98
By my definition, I've only been on one "first date". BLOW actually never mentioned dates or how many. She was just concerned about "blowing too soon" in general, my bad. Dan & THW brought up the "1st date".
If you had a casual/inebriated encounter that blossomed into LURVE, that's fantastic, and I don't see any harm in screwing a confirmed good feminist man you've met previously.
But say you are meeting an on-line match for the first time, in it for the LTR. Automatic dick sucking just sounds CRAZY submissive to me. Great for people you like, but might scare new friends. I like to think that most feminist guys are looking for an intellectual partner first, so I'd surprise him with the sexual later (meeting 2 or 3).
If there's a feminist spectrum, THW and I are on different ends. I'm used to being ignored for not putting out fast enough.
If you had a casual/inebriated encounter that blossomed into LURVE, that's fantastic, and I don't see any harm in screwing a confirmed good feminist man you've met previously.
But say you are meeting an on-line match for the first time, in it for the LTR. Automatic dick sucking just sounds CRAZY submissive to me. Great for people you like, but might scare new friends. I like to think that most feminist guys are looking for an intellectual partner first, so I'd surprise him with the sexual later (meeting 2 or 3).
If there's a feminist spectrum, THW and I are on different ends. I'm used to being ignored for not putting out fast enough.
99
@91
Yeah that's what wikipedia told me :p.
I guess when Dan said that it was legal in all states I naively assumed that all states had come around to reality. Instead they were forced on a federal level.
Oh well, it's about the same in practice, I suppose.
Yeah that's what wikipedia told me :p.
I guess when Dan said that it was legal in all states I naively assumed that all states had come around to reality. Instead they were forced on a federal level.
Oh well, it's about the same in practice, I suppose.
100
@85: Feminism is about choice, ignoring gender norms & treating everyone with equal respect. easy pease
Coming up with a generally accepted definition of feminism is anything but easy.
What about women who choose to embrace gender norms, at least for themselves? Can't a woman be feminine and feminist at the same time?
I think it's more about accepting the exceptions to gender norms than pretending those norms don't exist or that they are inherently evil.
Coming up with a generally accepted definition of feminism is anything but easy.
What about women who choose to embrace gender norms, at least for themselves? Can't a woman be feminine and feminist at the same time?
I think it's more about accepting the exceptions to gender norms than pretending those norms don't exist or that they are inherently evil.
104
"I think it's more about accepting the exceptions to gender norms than pretending those norms don't exist or that they are inherently evil."
Bingo.
If that's what the predominate discourse in feminism was, I might identify as a feminist.
Bingo.
If that's what the predominate discourse in feminism was, I might identify as a feminist.
105
@100 for me, it's about questioning the norms, rather than assuming they're a good fit for most people. I find most people fit with the norms of their apparent gender in at least some way, whether minor or major.
107
@100, @101 - Women who are 'feminine', fabulous. Women who aren't, also fabulous.
Ignoring gender expectations is more illustrative of what I'm saying. I think a person can ignore a gender norm, and do what feels right for her. What feels right may be also fall under our ideas about her gender, but no one should be limited in behavior based on outdated gender expectations.
Also, feminism was about breaking any negativity tied to gender. Clearly, it's still a process!
I say fuck expectations, do what you feel is right, and let go of any negative assumptions of any particular gender. All good? All good :)
Ignoring gender expectations is more illustrative of what I'm saying. I think a person can ignore a gender norm, and do what feels right for her. What feels right may be also fall under our ideas about her gender, but no one should be limited in behavior based on outdated gender expectations.
Also, feminism was about breaking any negativity tied to gender. Clearly, it's still a process!
I say fuck expectations, do what you feel is right, and let go of any negative assumptions of any particular gender. All good? All good :)
109
*and I delete "outdated" from my 107 post. I think most of us here have let go of the outdated norms.
110
@58 "special little snowflake"
Yeah, as I recall that was NOT the nickname scrawled on my locker and sneeringly lobbed by mean cheerleaders in high school.
Yeah, as I recall that was NOT the nickname scrawled on my locker and sneeringly lobbed by mean cheerleaders in high school.
111
I call bullshit on people refusing to identify as feminist because they disagree with the views of some people who identify as feminist. That's obviously faulty logic.
Being a feminist means that you believe men and women are equal. It's that simple.
I do not believe there is any legitimate reason for any person to fail to identify as a feminist.
Being a feminist means that you believe men and women are equal. It's that simple.
I do not believe there is any legitimate reason for any person to fail to identify as a feminist.
112
I call bullshit on people refusing to identify as feminist because they disagree with the views of some people who identify as feminist. That's obviously faulty logic.
Being a feminist means that you believe men and women are equal. It's that simple.
I do not believe there is any legitimate reason for any person to fail to identify as a feminist.
Being a feminist means that you believe men and women are equal. It's that simple.
I do not believe there is any legitimate reason for any person to fail to identify as a feminist.
114
@wheat
Um, that's deliberately obtuse.
I don't identify as a feminist because I disagree in large fundamental ways with the vast majority of feminist individuals I've met and essentially all feminist writing I've read. Believing men and women are equal is one thing, but there's more to it to that - and if you can't comprehend that what that equalness means and how that interacts with the law, social norms, and culture, can have multiple interpretations then you are just so far off the mark. I need to go to bed.
Um, that's deliberately obtuse.
I don't identify as a feminist because I disagree in large fundamental ways with the vast majority of feminist individuals I've met and essentially all feminist writing I've read. Believing men and women are equal is one thing, but there's more to it to that - and if you can't comprehend that what that equalness means and how that interacts with the law, social norms, and culture, can have multiple interpretations then you are just so far off the mark. I need to go to bed.
116
ok, here's what i'm still trying to wrap my brain around: women who can come from giving bj's. i've heard testimonials, i've heard the physiology of it explained. i still can't believe it. anyone?
117
@116
If people can orgasm in their sleep, they can orgasm doing pretty much anything, theoretically.
If people can orgasm in their sleep, they can orgasm doing pretty much anything, theoretically.
118
I don't know if anybody will cover this - but IBS is completely FIXABLE. No drugs. Serious. To the poor person that suffers from it - you must change your diet. I suffer from mild IBS that flares up whenever I indulge in too much of the bad stuff. My bad stuff: CAFFEINE, CHOCOLATE, SUGAR. Start some research, start cutting out crap from your diet. I now have no problems. I knew I had to do something when I had a full day of excruciating IBS pain that did not go away almost all day. I thought I would have to go to the emergency room. When it lightened up, I hit the internet. Found out that foods might be the triggers. And they were. Forget drugs. Do your research, IBS is curable WITHOUT drugs.
119
ellarosa@116: mydriasis is right. There are a lot of circumstances under which women* have been known to orgasm without direct stimulation (or maybe just with something like contraction of pelvic floor or thigh muscles). During yoga practice is relatively common. For a few women it's an everyday thing; others find they can manage it at one point in their lives and not at others. Whatever can turn you on sufficiently could in theory get you to the brink of such an orgasm. It isn't specifically related to blowjobs as far as I know (that is, it isn't about some women having differently wired mouths or something).
Now, if you're still trying to wrap your mind around a woman finding a blowjob a turn-on for herself at all, that's kind of a different question, but I didn't get the sense that was what you were asking.
*Presumably something similar is true for men as well -- I just know less about it.
Now, if you're still trying to wrap your mind around a woman finding a blowjob a turn-on for herself at all, that's kind of a different question, but I didn't get the sense that was what you were asking.
*Presumably something similar is true for men as well -- I just know less about it.
120
@LZito
Just because you experienced dramatic results through lifestyle change doesn't mean that everyone else will too. You don't know anything about that poster, their lifestyle or their symptoms. For all you know she's on a very specialized diet and has maxed out the benefit it can do for her.
@Eirene
Totally. P.S. I can get 99% there with muscle contractions but I've never found yoga (or any mindfulness practice) to be a turnon.
Just because you experienced dramatic results through lifestyle change doesn't mean that everyone else will too. You don't know anything about that poster, their lifestyle or their symptoms. For all you know she's on a very specialized diet and has maxed out the benefit it can do for her.
@Eirene
Totally. P.S. I can get 99% there with muscle contractions but I've never found yoga (or any mindfulness practice) to be a turnon.
121
@ 115 Hunter reminds me a bit of Spinal Tap. "Well, so what? What's wrong with being sexy?" "Sex-ist. -ist, not sexy."
123
A FEMINIST is someone who believes in social and political equality for men and women.
Different types of feminists disagree on what is needed to get to that equality -- but it ain't hard to define what a feminist is. People, seriously!
Also, I, too, will not date a man who doesn't identify as a feminist. Typically it means 1) he is sexist and is ok with the status quo; 2) or he doesn't know what feminism is (he probably also thinks it's a big, nebulous concept full of man-hatin') or 3) he identifies as an equalist, which is a framework I have a lot of problems with.
Different types of feminists disagree on what is needed to get to that equality -- but it ain't hard to define what a feminist is. People, seriously!
Also, I, too, will not date a man who doesn't identify as a feminist. Typically it means 1) he is sexist and is ok with the status quo; 2) or he doesn't know what feminism is (he probably also thinks it's a big, nebulous concept full of man-hatin') or 3) he identifies as an equalist, which is a framework I have a lot of problems with.
124
@114
I'm interested in what all you've read about feminism or what (types of) feminists you've met. Care to elaborate?
I'm interested in what all you've read about feminism or what (types of) feminists you've met. Care to elaborate?
125
@ shurenka
Perhaps, but feminism is also a movement and it's pretty hard for some of us to ignore the reality of what feminism is (historically lots of trouble including women who aren't white, straight, cis women) and pretend that the theory of what feminism is, is all that matters. Look, I share a lot of common ground with feminists, and I don't think feminists are all uptight man haters who need to get lai or anything like that - but I choose not to identify as a feminist because I don't identify with any feminist voice I've ever heard, seen or read without any major sticking points.
Perhaps, but feminism is also a movement and it's pretty hard for some of us to ignore the reality of what feminism is (historically lots of trouble including women who aren't white, straight, cis women) and pretend that the theory of what feminism is, is all that matters. Look, I share a lot of common ground with feminists, and I don't think feminists are all uptight man haters who need to get lai or anything like that - but I choose not to identify as a feminist because I don't identify with any feminist voice I've ever heard, seen or read without any major sticking points.
126
@ shurenka
Some of the major areas where I tend to disagree with pretty much anyone who identifies as feminist:
1. Gender and gender roles
2. Sex and sexuality
3. Reproduction, pregnancy, etc
Some of the major areas where I tend to disagree with pretty much anyone who identifies as feminist:
1. Gender and gender roles
2. Sex and sexuality
3. Reproduction, pregnancy, etc
127
@125
True, feminism has not in the past been the most inclusive, although now many theorists recognize the importance of the intersectionality of race, gender identity, class, sexual orientation, etc.
But, for it to be inclusive, people of these different voices need to participate in it. The options are to participate in feminism and help determine what course it will take -- or presumably to do nothing, maybe starting various movements which will possibly conflict with each other and not gain much mainstream significance.
I guess to me the analogy would be in voting -- you can either identify with a big party because it is the best option available even if it isn't ideal in any sense (and work to make it align more closely to what you believe) or you can vote for Nadir or choose not to vote at all, which while symbolic does not do anything.
True, feminism has not in the past been the most inclusive, although now many theorists recognize the importance of the intersectionality of race, gender identity, class, sexual orientation, etc.
But, for it to be inclusive, people of these different voices need to participate in it. The options are to participate in feminism and help determine what course it will take -- or presumably to do nothing, maybe starting various movements which will possibly conflict with each other and not gain much mainstream significance.
I guess to me the analogy would be in voting -- you can either identify with a big party because it is the best option available even if it isn't ideal in any sense (and work to make it align more closely to what you believe) or you can vote for Nadir or choose not to vote at all, which while symbolic does not do anything.
128
Also: the three areas you note, are areas in which there is a wide range of opinions. Not every feminist is against gender roles or thinks they are inherently limiting/damaging, as radical feminists do; some celebrate the differences between them or believe there is some sort of essential difference between "men" and "women". (Although personally, I fall in the former camp and am not as well-read in "cultural feminism", as at least one type of the latter views is called.) With regards to sex, too, the opinions run the gamut from the extremely sex-negative (e.g. pornography is degrading to women, the "hookup" culture is harmful, ...) to very permissive or sex-positive (e.g. women should empower themselves through their sexuality and engage in casual sex if they want; women can empower themselves even when adopting traditionally objectifying roles).
(I don't know as much about feminist theories with regards to pregnancy and reproduction, but I don't doubt this topic would be any less contentious.)
So, to say you would disagree with anyone who identifies as a feminist on these topics is baffling, since there is probably some branch of feminism which would agree with you -- or vice versa. Radical feminism is certainly in my experience much more represented online -- and it can rub many people the wrong way since they are, well, unabashedly radical. (And they'll not respond kindly if you tell them they would have more success if they worked to be less off-putting to the public and casual readers! BUT ANYWAY)
Again, anyone who believes in equality for the genders/sexes, is a feminist. What that equality stems from and/or should consist of -- there is lots of disagreement!
(I don't know as much about feminist theories with regards to pregnancy and reproduction, but I don't doubt this topic would be any less contentious.)
So, to say you would disagree with anyone who identifies as a feminist on these topics is baffling, since there is probably some branch of feminism which would agree with you -- or vice versa. Radical feminism is certainly in my experience much more represented online -- and it can rub many people the wrong way since they are, well, unabashedly radical. (And they'll not respond kindly if you tell them they would have more success if they worked to be less off-putting to the public and casual readers! BUT ANYWAY)
Again, anyone who believes in equality for the genders/sexes, is a feminist. What that equality stems from and/or should consist of -- there is lots of disagreement!
129
mydriasis, I'm a feminist. Do you get the sense we disagree on those three topics, other than having made different choices in our personal lives?
131
@shurenka
Yeah I've heard that argument before. "We have a bad repuation and/or aren't inclusive because you won't align yourself with us!"
I'm not into it. Frankly, it isn't my job to make feminists look better.
The thing about personal opinions is that they're actually not like voting. My personal opinions can be whatever I want them to be, and I'm not forced to accept the entirety of one ideology with the hopes of beating out another ideology.
Yeah I've heard that argument before. "We have a bad repuation and/or aren't inclusive because you won't align yourself with us!"
I'm not into it. Frankly, it isn't my job to make feminists look better.
The thing about personal opinions is that they're actually not like voting. My personal opinions can be whatever I want them to be, and I'm not forced to accept the entirety of one ideology with the hopes of beating out another ideology.
132
Also, I didn't say I would "disagree with anyone who identifies as a feminist"
I said...
"I tend to disagree with pretty much anyone who identifies as feminist"
As in, I have never seen otherwise. But you can feel free to link me to a blog of a feminist you think would break the trend.
@ Erica
I don't know your opinions on those subjects, to be honest.
I said...
"I tend to disagree with pretty much anyone who identifies as feminist"
As in, I have never seen otherwise. But you can feel free to link me to a blog of a feminist you think would break the trend.
@ Erica
I don't know your opinions on those subjects, to be honest.
133
@132
You still don't elaborate on what exactly you dislike about feminists or feminism, so I can't exactly give a recommendation.
And: you wrote "I disagree in large fundamental ways with the vast majority of feminist individuals I've met and essentially all feminist writing I've read"
So, I hope you can understand why I assumed that you have never found a feminist or feminist ideology that speaks to you. That language is quite different from "tends to disagree".
You still don't elaborate on what exactly you dislike about feminists or feminism, so I can't exactly give a recommendation.
And: you wrote "I disagree in large fundamental ways with the vast majority of feminist individuals I've met and essentially all feminist writing I've read"
So, I hope you can understand why I assumed that you have never found a feminist or feminist ideology that speaks to you. That language is quite different from "tends to disagree".
134
Also, though yes I do assert feminism has been given a bad rep through the media's portrayal of straw-feminists, I do not think it is anyone's job to join feminism to make it more inclusive. It should be an inclusive space no matter what. I also contend that it strives to be inclusive and for the most part, is. What I mean is that if there are failings they are likely due to ignorance -- if there aren't a lot of non white-middleclass-cisgendered-straight-women feminists, then the likelihood that the feminist movement will be knowledgeable of non WMCSW concerns is lower.
I guess for me the voting analogy is, if you want your opinion to have a greater meaning or effect, for it to have a "vote" in how things end up, then you ultimately have to join forces.
But if you are content labeling yourself a nonfeminist (and go into how you are for equality but don't like feminism whenever the subject is brought up), that's fine, but I personally don't think it's effective in promoting the equality you believe in. I guess that's why I try to convince people who believe in equality that it's preferable to identify as feminists. But if activism isn't your thing, then I can understand it.
I guess for me the voting analogy is, if you want your opinion to have a greater meaning or effect, for it to have a "vote" in how things end up, then you ultimately have to join forces.
But if you are content labeling yourself a nonfeminist (and go into how you are for equality but don't like feminism whenever the subject is brought up), that's fine, but I personally don't think it's effective in promoting the equality you believe in. I guess that's why I try to convince people who believe in equality that it's preferable to identify as feminists. But if activism isn't your thing, then I can understand it.
135
@shurenka:
I have never heard of "equalists" before, so I have no idea what their framework is. But I like the sound of it!
Men who call themselves "feminist" make me wary: are they serious? I know enough men who are all for equal rights for men and women, but still wouldn't call themselves feminists.
I have never heard of "equalists" before, so I have no idea what their framework is. But I like the sound of it!
Men who call themselves "feminist" make me wary: are they serious? I know enough men who are all for equal rights for men and women, but still wouldn't call themselves feminists.
136
@135
The problem with equalism is that it erroneously says sexism is something that men and women face equally. This is not true. Only men have the privilege with which to oppress in a patriarchal (or kyriarchal, whatever term you prefer) society. Along this line of reasoning, men can experience prejudice for being male, but since they are not systemically and societally oppressed / silenced / marginalized, they are not the victims of sexism. Similar lines of reasoning are extended to racism and other -isms.
Why is it dangerous to claim both men and women face sexism?
Well, often in debates about feminism people will try to shut down an issue by saying things like "well it goes both ways" (e.g., men are victims of rape, men suffer from gender roles and expectations, etc). While this is somewhat true, it ignores the role of male privilege. It is one thing to claim that mistreatment of women is bad -- quite another to get men to relinquish their systematic perks.
In my experience, men who are feminists are more concerned and knowledgeable about women's rights and sexism. Men who don't identify as such, even if they are for equality, tend to be more prone to benevolent sexism and to support traditional gender roles. I also am atypical in that I know a lot of male feminists, but then again I'm in academia.
The problem with equalism is that it erroneously says sexism is something that men and women face equally. This is not true. Only men have the privilege with which to oppress in a patriarchal (or kyriarchal, whatever term you prefer) society. Along this line of reasoning, men can experience prejudice for being male, but since they are not systemically and societally oppressed / silenced / marginalized, they are not the victims of sexism. Similar lines of reasoning are extended to racism and other -isms.
Why is it dangerous to claim both men and women face sexism?
Well, often in debates about feminism people will try to shut down an issue by saying things like "well it goes both ways" (e.g., men are victims of rape, men suffer from gender roles and expectations, etc). While this is somewhat true, it ignores the role of male privilege. It is one thing to claim that mistreatment of women is bad -- quite another to get men to relinquish their systematic perks.
In my experience, men who are feminists are more concerned and knowledgeable about women's rights and sexism. Men who don't identify as such, even if they are for equality, tend to be more prone to benevolent sexism and to support traditional gender roles. I also am atypical in that I know a lot of male feminists, but then again I'm in academia.
137
For an article about male privilege (and white privilege): http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcint…. (If it doesn't work, google "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack".)
138
@136:
Thank you!
Your explanation made me like the term "equalism" even better, at least as long as sexism is concerned.
I know the benevolently sexist type. Still don't like it when men call themselves "feminist". Maybe because it makes me feel like they think they have to help those poor little wifeys fight their fight.
And while I have spent all of my 20s in academia, I haven't met many male feminists. So it is probably less academia, but your subject matter, I'd assume.
Thank you!
Your explanation made me like the term "equalism" even better, at least as long as sexism is concerned.
I know the benevolently sexist type. Still don't like it when men call themselves "feminist". Maybe because it makes me feel like they think they have to help those poor little wifeys fight their fight.
And while I have spent all of my 20s in academia, I haven't met many male feminists. So it is probably less academia, but your subject matter, I'd assume.
139
@138
Probably not, since my subject matter has absolutely nothing to do with feminism or the humanities.
You must not be looking for them!
Curious what subject matter YOU are in, though, where "male feminists"=benevolent sexism.
Probably not, since my subject matter has absolutely nothing to do with feminism or the humanities.
You must not be looking for them!
Curious what subject matter YOU are in, though, where "male feminists"=benevolent sexism.
140
Or rather, you don't say they are equal, but you do say "it makes me feel like they think they have to help those poor little wifeys fight their fight". I guess, rather than assuming their feelings or reasons for identifying as feminists, perhaps you should talk to more of them.
141
@Shurenka
That's the other thing I've heard before. Oh, you just disagree with "straw" feminists from sitcoms, not real feminists. No. Look, my best friend is a feminist, and she comes closer to my opinions than any other feminist when it comes to those issues but we still disagree (though it's slightly more of a matter of taste/emotion at our point). She's also (after many the conversation) come to understand why I don't identify as a feminist and accept it as valid.
It's not about straw feminists. Pervocracy is often name dropped here (I read her whole blog) as being a nonconventional, sex-positive feminist. But I still disagree with her on most feminist issues.
If you'd like me to elaborate more:
1. I think it's likely that some gender roles or traits are innate - and even if they are, it doesn't make a difference to the matter of equality. I also quite enjoy gender roles and don't think making them go away is the answer to the problem.
2. I'm pro-choice, but I'm extremely frustrated with feminists for getting caught up in the Christian-generated "personhood" argument. Of course a fetus is a person - and as such, I don't dig the whole "pregnant women should be allowed to do whatever they want, you guys" argument.
3. I am pretty strongly opposed to the "yes means yes" argument (as regular posters saw from a few weeks back or whatever it was).
That's the other thing I've heard before. Oh, you just disagree with "straw" feminists from sitcoms, not real feminists. No. Look, my best friend is a feminist, and she comes closer to my opinions than any other feminist when it comes to those issues but we still disagree (though it's slightly more of a matter of taste/emotion at our point). She's also (after many the conversation) come to understand why I don't identify as a feminist and accept it as valid.
It's not about straw feminists. Pervocracy is often name dropped here (I read her whole blog) as being a nonconventional, sex-positive feminist. But I still disagree with her on most feminist issues.
If you'd like me to elaborate more:
1. I think it's likely that some gender roles or traits are innate - and even if they are, it doesn't make a difference to the matter of equality. I also quite enjoy gender roles and don't think making them go away is the answer to the problem.
2. I'm pro-choice, but I'm extremely frustrated with feminists for getting caught up in the Christian-generated "personhood" argument. Of course a fetus is a person - and as such, I don't dig the whole "pregnant women should be allowed to do whatever they want, you guys" argument.
3. I am pretty strongly opposed to the "yes means yes" argument (as regular posters saw from a few weeks back or whatever it was).
142
Also, if I had a dollar for every male who was a feminist because he hates the cultural standard that he needs to approach women. "Sexism is bad! Ever notice how men have to worry about getting shot down and women don't??"
143
Some feminists do think certain gendered traits are innate. These are the type who would celebrate the fact that women are better able to communicate (or something). I personally disagree. They're called "cultural feminists" or people who believe in "essentialism". In case you're curious. I don't know of any writers in that framework, though.
Also, FWIW, I certainly don't support doing "whatever" to a fetus and I don't like "yes means yes".
And at your point in 142, hah, well yeah gender standards can be limiting to males, and I don't want to start an anecdote war but I have honestly never heard that as a reason for identifying as feminist. Most male feminists I've seen identified as such because they realized sexism was a problem, and they wanted to show their support and not be part of that problem.
Also, FWIW, I certainly don't support doing "whatever" to a fetus and I don't like "yes means yes".
And at your point in 142, hah, well yeah gender standards can be limiting to males, and I don't want to start an anecdote war but I have honestly never heard that as a reason for identifying as feminist. Most male feminists I've seen identified as such because they realized sexism was a problem, and they wanted to show their support and not be part of that problem.
144
shurenka@136, I think men are just as boxed in by gender roles. I don't see women as more oppressed.
mydriasis@141, when you suggest some gender traits are innate, what do you mean? That people who feel they don't have some gender-appropriate trait are deluded? Or that such traits fall on a spectrum where people with some female traits are more likely (but not guarenteed) to have other female traits?
mydriasis@141, when you suggest some gender traits are innate, what do you mean? That people who feel they don't have some gender-appropriate trait are deluded? Or that such traits fall on a spectrum where people with some female traits are more likely (but not guarenteed) to have other female traits?
145
@142 I have to say, I've heard the topic touched on numerous times and it is always by a men's rights advocate explaining why feminists don't actually want equality, they only strive to acquire more rights and power for themselves than men have.
"you never see women complaining about not having to ask men out or pay for dinner..." that sort of thing.
@141
I've never seen somebody say, "I don't identify myself as X because there isn't another X I completely agree with about everything," where X was not feminism. I have seen fellow atheists completely disgusted with current atheist thought who still call themselves atheists. Because they are atheists, is why.
You are not even consistent about how you self identify.
Let's look at your issue with abortion because a few things jump out at me about that.
I'll guess that you are outside of the first trimester when you apply the term "person". We're not talking about the morning after pill. Because there is a period in pregnancy where you would have to believe in a soul to call the thing being discussed a "person".
We can assume personhood and make an argument for second trimester abortion. You've not read the thought experiment about a fully grown human who has to be attached to your body and feed off of your blood supply and the food you eat in order to live? Would it be ethical to require you, by law, to do that? You don't know the discussion or you are pretending not to know or you are forgetting about it.
I'm not offering to have that argument with you. I'm saying it exists and it is interesting and it treats the situation as two humans with rights where one must tragically be denied those rights.
But, assuming for argument's sake that the argument that frustrates you is the only one you can find, I don't think your response to it follows. Is it a feminist argument? No. It is an issue that feminists discuss. But it isn't a feminist argument. It's a pro-choice argument. And you just called yourself pro-choice.
So, why do you use this as a reason not to call yourself a feminist. Why is that a sticking point for calling yourself feminist but not pro-choice?
Why aren't you worried that calling yourself pro-choice might imply that you subscribe to the "pregnant women should be allowed to do whatever they want, you guys" argument?
And, it is not fair to refer to bloggers. For real. Blogger's aren't generally experts or the best minds on the topic. They are usually just normal people with internet access who are good at getting people riled up. You disagree with most bloggers? I think that's the point.
More...
"you never see women complaining about not having to ask men out or pay for dinner..." that sort of thing.
@141
I've never seen somebody say, "I don't identify myself as X because there isn't another X I completely agree with about everything," where X was not feminism. I have seen fellow atheists completely disgusted with current atheist thought who still call themselves atheists. Because they are atheists, is why.
You are not even consistent about how you self identify.
Let's look at your issue with abortion because a few things jump out at me about that.
I'll guess that you are outside of the first trimester when you apply the term "person". We're not talking about the morning after pill. Because there is a period in pregnancy where you would have to believe in a soul to call the thing being discussed a "person".
We can assume personhood and make an argument for second trimester abortion. You've not read the thought experiment about a fully grown human who has to be attached to your body and feed off of your blood supply and the food you eat in order to live? Would it be ethical to require you, by law, to do that? You don't know the discussion or you are pretending not to know or you are forgetting about it.
I'm not offering to have that argument with you. I'm saying it exists and it is interesting and it treats the situation as two humans with rights where one must tragically be denied those rights.
But, assuming for argument's sake that the argument that frustrates you is the only one you can find, I don't think your response to it follows. Is it a feminist argument? No. It is an issue that feminists discuss. But it isn't a feminist argument. It's a pro-choice argument. And you just called yourself pro-choice.
So, why do you use this as a reason not to call yourself a feminist. Why is that a sticking point for calling yourself feminist but not pro-choice?
Why aren't you worried that calling yourself pro-choice might imply that you subscribe to the "pregnant women should be allowed to do whatever they want, you guys" argument?
And, it is not fair to refer to bloggers. For real. Blogger's aren't generally experts or the best minds on the topic. They are usually just normal people with internet access who are good at getting people riled up. You disagree with most bloggers? I think that's the point.
146
@ shurenka
Thanks for sharing. My original point was mostly that I don't think we can make assumptions about what someone believes just because they don't identify as feminist (much like we can't make assumptions about what someone believes because they do identify as feminist).
Frankly, if a guy does identify as a feminist, there's a large chance we'll disagree on something significant (you'll at least admit that it's possible that my opinions would put me in the minority among feminists). I've never met a guy who identified as a feminist who was anything close to what I find attractive in a male.
@ Erica
I think men are more boxed in by gender roles in a lot of ways - but women suffer from sexism way way more. Especially if you look at things globally (which I do).
I like that I can listen to whatever music I want, wear whatever clothes I want, and I'm allowed to cry and have feelings. But at the same time? Not having to worry about being raped would be mighty nice.
Basically my main point is this: men are typically taller and bigger than women. Some women are bigger than some men, but by and large, men tend to be bigger. A lot of feminists vehemently deny that the same could be true in the brain (or if it, it's just a result of environment and isn't innate). I think it's highly unlikely that sexual dimorphism doesn't affect the brain in any way.
So one cliche is math, that men are better at math. Now look, I'm better at math than most men. I'm pretty sure there's no evidence for that cliche, but for the sake of argument let's use it for an example. Say it was completely proven that men were better at math and that this had nothing to do with socialization. Would it matter? In my opinion, no. Nor would it matter if men were in fact more rational, or even more intelligent than women (in the same way that they're "taller" than women). That's what disturbs me about the whole 'innateness' question. I'm inclined to believe that some things are innate (in the way tallness is innate) but why on Earth have feminists appeared to hinge their argument for equality on competence? This isn't a conscious decision but it's hard for me to ignore. Plus it's kind of ableist.
Aaanyway. To answer your question, I consider gender roles in a similar way to sexuality or handedness. Most men like women, most women like men, most people are right handed. We didn't stop forcing left handed people to use their right hand by ignoring handedness or pretending everyone's just ambidextrous or that left-handedness is as common as right handedness.
The argument for LGBT rights doesn't hinge on the idea that sexual orientation doesn't exist or that being gay is just as common as being straight. It would be similarly absurd to suggest that cisgendered people don't comprise the majority of the population. But that doesn't mean we don't respect or care about trans people.
There are some traits of mine that are less common in females, I consider myself 'left handed' in those ways, and 'right handed' in most others. Whereas the dominant feminist viewpoint is to suggest that no traits correlate with gender innately. I'm more inclined to consider left-handedness as benign than deny that right-handedness is more common.
More...
Thanks for sharing. My original point was mostly that I don't think we can make assumptions about what someone believes just because they don't identify as feminist (much like we can't make assumptions about what someone believes because they do identify as feminist).
Frankly, if a guy does identify as a feminist, there's a large chance we'll disagree on something significant (you'll at least admit that it's possible that my opinions would put me in the minority among feminists). I've never met a guy who identified as a feminist who was anything close to what I find attractive in a male.
@ Erica
I think men are more boxed in by gender roles in a lot of ways - but women suffer from sexism way way more. Especially if you look at things globally (which I do).
I like that I can listen to whatever music I want, wear whatever clothes I want, and I'm allowed to cry and have feelings. But at the same time? Not having to worry about being raped would be mighty nice.
Basically my main point is this: men are typically taller and bigger than women. Some women are bigger than some men, but by and large, men tend to be bigger. A lot of feminists vehemently deny that the same could be true in the brain (or if it, it's just a result of environment and isn't innate). I think it's highly unlikely that sexual dimorphism doesn't affect the brain in any way.
So one cliche is math, that men are better at math. Now look, I'm better at math than most men. I'm pretty sure there's no evidence for that cliche, but for the sake of argument let's use it for an example. Say it was completely proven that men were better at math and that this had nothing to do with socialization. Would it matter? In my opinion, no. Nor would it matter if men were in fact more rational, or even more intelligent than women (in the same way that they're "taller" than women). That's what disturbs me about the whole 'innateness' question. I'm inclined to believe that some things are innate (in the way tallness is innate) but why on Earth have feminists appeared to hinge their argument for equality on competence? This isn't a conscious decision but it's hard for me to ignore. Plus it's kind of ableist.
Aaanyway. To answer your question, I consider gender roles in a similar way to sexuality or handedness. Most men like women, most women like men, most people are right handed. We didn't stop forcing left handed people to use their right hand by ignoring handedness or pretending everyone's just ambidextrous or that left-handedness is as common as right handedness.
The argument for LGBT rights doesn't hinge on the idea that sexual orientation doesn't exist or that being gay is just as common as being straight. It would be similarly absurd to suggest that cisgendered people don't comprise the majority of the population. But that doesn't mean we don't respect or care about trans people.
There are some traits of mine that are less common in females, I consider myself 'left handed' in those ways, and 'right handed' in most others. Whereas the dominant feminist viewpoint is to suggest that no traits correlate with gender innately. I'm more inclined to consider left-handedness as benign than deny that right-handedness is more common.
147
@145
I actually don't need your permission to identify how I choose. Like I said, if anyone has a suggestion for what I should read they're more than welcome, if not, they can go ahead and accept that I'll use whatever terms for myself that I feel are appropriate.
Finally, if you want to talk about consistency, how aout this? I also believe in equality for all races. Hey - why don't I have to wear a label for that?
I actually don't need your permission to identify how I choose. Like I said, if anyone has a suggestion for what I should read they're more than welcome, if not, they can go ahead and accept that I'll use whatever terms for myself that I feel are appropriate.
Finally, if you want to talk about consistency, how aout this? I also believe in equality for all races. Hey - why don't I have to wear a label for that?
148
@146, "the dominant feminist viewpoint is to suggest that no traits correlate with gender innately..."
I think the dominant feminist viewpoint is that height is correlated with gender (for whatever definition of gender: chromosomes, genitals, self-perception, external perception). Also hormonal balance is correlated with gender. And yes, many other traits, such as spatial relations, linguistic ability, maybe math -- though testing these correlations is virtually impossible due to the selective reinforcements provided by our socialization.
Who are the feminists you see arguing the other side?
I think the dominant feminist viewpoint is that height is correlated with gender (for whatever definition of gender: chromosomes, genitals, self-perception, external perception). Also hormonal balance is correlated with gender. And yes, many other traits, such as spatial relations, linguistic ability, maybe math -- though testing these correlations is virtually impossible due to the selective reinforcements provided by our socialization.
Who are the feminists you see arguing the other side?
149
@ Erica
Two things.
One, I said innately. So, while it may be unavoidable to admit that there is a correlation, that socialization you mentioned is often brought out as he only possible cause. (Or, the overwhelmingly dominant cause)
Two: feminists arguing the other side?
"Some feminists do think certain gendered traits are innate. These are the type who would celebrate the fact that women are better able to communicate (or something). I personally disagree."
Shurenka did just a few posts back.
Two things.
One, I said innately. So, while it may be unavoidable to admit that there is a correlation, that socialization you mentioned is often brought out as he only possible cause. (Or, the overwhelmingly dominant cause)
Two: feminists arguing the other side?
"Some feminists do think certain gendered traits are innate. These are the type who would celebrate the fact that women are better able to communicate (or something). I personally disagree."
Shurenka did just a few posts back.
150
Deja vu.
I remember an earlier feminist wave. Friends of mine, PhDs- and I not yet out of college, screaming into my face that the reason boys excelled in strength and endurance tests was they were encouraged to run when they were young.
Feminists are no more respectful of the lessons of science than creationists. The genders have been apart hundreds of millions of years.
I think it's smarter to try to understand the gender differences than pretend they don't exist.
I remember an earlier feminist wave. Friends of mine, PhDs- and I not yet out of college, screaming into my face that the reason boys excelled in strength and endurance tests was they were encouraged to run when they were young.
Feminists are no more respectful of the lessons of science than creationists. The genders have been apart hundreds of millions of years.
I think it's smarter to try to understand the gender differences than pretend they don't exist.
152
Hunter,
don't try to label people who changed the world as negative idiots because you spoke to a few who said something inarticulate. That's just shameful.
Peace.
don't try to label people who changed the world as negative idiots because you spoke to a few who said something inarticulate. That's just shameful.
Peace.
155
@ Ms. 11
I just looked her up and she's written a LOT of books, what do you think is a good starting point?
I just looked her up and she's written a LOT of books, what do you think is a good starting point?
156
When straight guys think about marriage material, they are thinking about their mothers. And they don't like thinking about their mothers giving them BJs.
157
Hmm...it appears that on the subject of feminism, I agree more with EricaP than with mydriasis.
No arguing or egging anybody on---I'm just saying. Peace.
No arguing or egging anybody on---I'm just saying. Peace.
158
I used to live in SF and would occasionally forget about Folsom Street Fair and get caught in horrible traffic. While being stuck, I was entertained by all kinds of fabulousness. When getting stuck in traffic at FSF is as boring as getting stranded by traffic coming out of a Giants game, then...and only then, will we have reached civil equality.
159
I used to live in SF and occasionally forgot that FSF was going on and got stuck in awful traffic. While stuck, I was always entertained by the fabulousness of the fair goers. Only when getting stuck in FSF traffic becomes as boring as getting stuck in Giants traffic will we know that we have reached civil equality.
160
I'm a pansexual, lady who was definitely at Folsom Street East this year (in NYC)... and let me tell you it's not a gay men or leather only event... I did have to deal with one asshat how saw me and snarked "Who let the women in here?" To which I responded, "Just because I have tits doesn't mean I don't have a fantastic cock." I do have a wonderful cock, and FSE is a wonderful occasion for kinky, vanilla, LBGTQAII people to party down. Don't let the asshats ruin something great.
161
I know this is a late commment, but I hope it makes it's way to IBS. I have IBS. I have anal sex. I USE anal sex and the preceding "clean up" to manage my IBS. Since finding a partner that enjoys anal sex as much as I do, engaging 2x a week I've been able to go off my medications 90% of the time. Bottoms Up!
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