Bliss Con

May 7, 2009

By Dan Savage

My 14-year-old son just came out to me. He has a slightly older boyfriend, and they're going to the school dance on Saturday night. I am adjusting to a truth I had long suspected. I am worried, though, that my son will get hurt. We live in the South—North Carolina—but our town has a gay community and an annual pride parade. When I asked him if the other students at school would be cool with him bringing a boy, he said, "Who cares?" Bullying is not a huge problem at his school.

We have had the sex talk several times, but I have always assumed a hetero approach. I think my son is too young for sleepovers with his boyfriend, and I would really like him to wait a couple more years before he gets seriously sexually active, though I expect petting and kissing are givens. Any advice?

Still My Son

Treat your son to some of that equal treatment we gay people are always going on about, SMS, and treat him just like you'd treat your 14-year-old straight kid. No responsible parent would allow his 14-year-old daughter—and that's how you should think of him for now (more on that in a moment)—to have sleepovers with her slightly older boyfriend, right? So no sleepovers for your gay kid. Remember: You can be supportive and be his advocate without signing off on stuff you wouldn't sign off on for a straight child—indeed, it's the best way to show your support.

What else can you do? You can hover, scrutinize, interfere—all the crap that parents typically do when their children begin to date. For instance, SMS, this boy your son is seeing? Have you met him? Meet him. How much older is he? Find out. Are they messing around? Ask them. Make sure your son understands that he doesn't have to engage in anal intercourse to be authentically gay, or all grown-up, or out. He can take things slow—he should take things slow. Encourage your son to date, to hold hands, to make out. And you should, as awkward as it's going to feel to say so aloud, encourage your son, when he does become sexually active, to stick with mutual masturbation and oral sex for a good, long time—until he's sure he's ready for intercourse, not just anxious for it.

Getting back to the daughter business: You should also regard your son, at least through his adolescence, as more of a daughter to you than a son. We tend to be more protective of our daughters—our straight daughters—than we are of our sons. Why? A sexist desire to keep our daughters "pure"? That's a part of it, sure, but there's also this: Men are pigs, and people on the receiving end of male sexual desire/attention are in more danger than people on the receiving end of female sexual desire/attention. (In general—individual results may vary.) Testosterone is the crystal meth of hormones, a badass drug, and men are more likely to be abusive and violent. The prevalence of HIV among gay men makes the stakes higher for your son. So don't allow him to date anyone you don't get to meet and approve of, and don't confuse "being supportive" with "letting him do whatever/whomever he wants." Be active, be engaged, and never stop being his meddling, interfering, hypersuspicious dad.

Good luck, SMS. It sounds like your son lucked out having you as a parent.

I've been seeing this guy for about two years. We've been living together for six months now, and it's been REALLY bumpy. We fight a lot, I cry a lot, and it just gets really messy. To tell you the truth, I'm tired of it. I work two jobs, and I never get any time to myself because he's moody and insecure. He always wants to know where I'm going or who I'm with. He doesn't like to do the same things I do, and I'm beginning to think this is all one big mistake. The problem is every time I try to leave, it always gets ugly. Ugly to the point that he's thrown my stuff in the front yard, broken things of mine, and even called me names. He's abusive.

As sad as this sounds, and as ridiculous as I feel, I want to make this work. I want us to be happy. And the thing is, I know that we can be. When we're mad, it's like World War III over here. But when we're happy, it's so blissful that I know in my heart with him is the only place I want to be. What can I do? People tell me it's time to sever ties, but the people who usually tell me this are the ones who can't stand him. How can I make a completely unbiased decision? Am I stupid for believing in a love that feels destined to fail?

Hopelessly Devoted To Him

This is not a relationship, HDTH, it's a hostage situation. He's a controlling, abusive piece of shit—listen to your fucking friends, HDTH. When your boyfriend breaks your shit, he's making an implicit threat: I can break your face just as easily as I'm breaking your shit, bitch, so don't even think about leaving me. And of course things are great when they're great—that's part of an abuser's MO. If abusers were abusive 24/7—if they weren't capable of doling out a little bliss now and then—no abusive relationship would last longer than one date. Like all abusers, he parcels out the good times, doping you up with a little bliss now and then, because he knows that these glimpses of how great things could be convince you to stick around against your better judgment.

The bliss is a con, HDTH, a weapon that he uses against you, just as much a part of the cycle of abuse as his tantrums, fits, and threats of violence are. Think of the good times as rainbow sprinkles on a dog-shit sundae—sprinkles or no sprinkles, you're still standing there with a bowlful of dog shit in your hands.

Get a couple of friends to come over when he's at work or out of town, box up your shit, and leave. You can't change him. Go.

Apropos of nothing, Savage, you fucking suck ass.

You And Your Column Both Suck

Have I ever claimed otherwise?

And apropos of nothing, YAYCBS, I'm totally grooving on Garfunkel & Oates right now (www.garfunkelandoates.com), and everyone has to check them out; Perez Hilton was absolutely right about Miss California (she is a dumb bitch); Seattle-based artist Kim Graham (www.kimgrahamstudios.com) is getting centaur fetishists halfway there; and I recently visited the University of Georgia in Athens, where the kids asked me to come up with a dirty meaning for "between the hedges," which is their football stadium's nickname. Off the top of my head, I said, "The boy in a girl-boy-girl three-way could be described as being between the hedges." But upon further reflection, I think the term is a better description of going down on a woman with a particularly hairy bush—and the tongue, not the boy/girl doing the tonguing, is "between the hedges."

mail@savagelove.net

 

Comments (131) RSS

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5
Savage, you fucking rock my world and I look forward to your column each week.
Love,
MN
Posted by Britta on May 5, 2009 at 9:19 PM · Report
6
BLAMO!
Posted by east coaster on May 5, 2009 at 9:27 PM · Report
7 Comment Pulled (OffTopic) Comment Policy
8
The best advice I've ever gotten was, "It's okay to say 'No'." Too bad it came too late to save me from the hardships that had happened already.
It was an amazing, profound piece of advice that, as a gay man, I had wished I had received sooner.
Posted by Drew2u on May 5, 2009 at 9:34 PM · Report
9
the advice to the father of the 14 year old was perfect :)
Posted by rush on May 5, 2009 at 9:41 PM · Report
Toasterhedgehog 10
SMS, I can't imagine what growing up with a parent like you would have been like. For a kid to be ok with telling their parent at 14 that they're gay is just wonderful. What will a gay community look like when fewer and fewer of us our tortured by our communities and families for the first 18-20 years of our lives? I'm excited to find out.
Posted by Toasterhedgehog on May 5, 2009 at 10:34 PM · Report
11
Did I miss something in the letter by "Still my Son" that implied the LW was a man and not a woman? Dan and others assume it was written by a father. Why?
Posted by Delta on May 5, 2009 at 10:36 PM · Report
12
Great advice to SMS. Now I feel old, though. Times have really changed when a newly outed young gay man is not afraid to bring his boyfriend to the school dance. Wow, amazing. Makes me *almost* want to move back there just to see if it's true (had some bad experiences growing up in rural NC, though.) Your column is one of the highlights of my week, Dan.
Posted by Norma Rae on May 5, 2009 at 10:37 PM · Report
13
@ 12--No kidding. I grew up in Canada, went to high school in the mid-90s and to a very liberal school, and the concept of bringing a boy to a dance was absolutely unthinkable. Sigh. Some days I wish I could be 16 again, right now.
Posted by DeanP on May 5, 2009 at 10:44 PM · Report
14
So basically, you're telling SMS to behave exactly like my mother. (Or at least, to behave exactly like my mother would have if I'd come out to her at that age -- since, as I discovered when I *did* come out to the family at 19, she'd suspected since I was 5 and was just waiting for me to tell her.)

(And no, I'm not gloating about my *fabulous* gay-supportive mother. Who now works as a psychologist who specializes in giving parents of LGBT people the same advice you give to SMS, at greater length.)

(OK, maybe I *am* gloating. Just a bit.)

(Or a lot.)
Posted by MGroesbeck on May 5, 2009 at 10:48 PM · Report
15
Dan, you rock. No seriously... you rock and I think you're the cat's pajamas. (Where in the world did that saying come from, anyway?) MUCH LOVE and thanks for being a wonderful part of my otherwise crazy life as a law student.
Posted by mycupotea on May 6, 2009 at 12:53 AM · Report
16
@11, I also thought it was a mother writing.
Posted by Dcal on May 6, 2009 at 12:54 AM · Report
17
@11, @ 16
Sometimes Dan edits letters for length and clarity. Maybe he accidentally removed the part that identified SMS as a father.
Posted by Oh Suzanna on May 6, 2009 at 1:43 AM · Report
18
Great advice to SMS Dan. My only addition would be that many cities in North Carolina now have GBLT youth programs, they maybe a little hard to find but the programs certainly exist. For the parents of the young man I would remind them that pflag is active though out North Carolina.
Posted by DisgruntleFairy on May 6, 2009 at 1:50 AM · Report
19
SMS sounds like the true embodiment of the concept of unconditional love. Not everyone feels that from their parents growing up, so his (or her) son is a very lucky kid. I agree totally with Dan's advice - 14 is too young, regardless of sexual orientation, to be in an intense physical relationship. I am a straight 31-year-old woman who lost her virginity at the tender age of 13 and now wish that my Irish Catholic parents were capable of being open about sex in this way. Maybe I would have waited.
Just one question, though - wasn't a big part of this parent's question about whether or not his (or her) son was in danger from the school and/or community? Dan didn't seem to answer that part.
Posted by 2young on May 6, 2009 at 2:29 AM · Report
20
About SMS, I think Dan was right on, 14 is too young to have the full spectrum of sexual activity although pressure and curiosity are important factors. An advice to the parent of the boy to check the age of the elder boy and be there please be there when (and if) the relation fells apart.
HDTH, listen to Dan advice get yourself out of this damaging relationship I am fearing for your life. You can't possibly imagine what harm this man can do to you both mentallly and physically. Seek also advice thru councelling because I suspect that you are attracted to this kind of behavior... it might be a problem of low esteem.
Posted by chaya760 on May 6, 2009 at 4:45 AM · Report
21
HDTH - I've been EXACTLY there. Take Dan's advice, take your friends' advice, take any mental health professional's advice and get out NOW. The abusive relationship I escaped was only 6 months old and we were just moving in together. It took me lots of therapy and nearly a year of cold-turkey no communication with the abuser to feel extricated from those feelings that "things would be perfect if only..." Now I am 6 months into a completely different, completely AMAZING relationship and I never thought it could be so good -- and I am beyond relieved not to be in an abusive relationship anymore. You have taken the first step and admitted that he is, in fact, abusive. Keep walking -- home to get your stuff, to the therapist to get support -- you can totally do this.
Posted by Leapster on May 6, 2009 at 4:48 AM · Report
22
Your first response was a gem, Dan. Being supportive means more than approval of your child's nature, it means giving them structure and ground rules for their own benefit.
Posted by Tassenix on May 6, 2009 at 5:26 AM · Report
23
Hey Dan, For SMS I would add watching the only show on cable with teenage boy that's gay; The United States of Tara on Showtime. It's great comedy drama and the family dynamic is all about the love. SMS your son hit the jackpot with you as a Dad and make sure you do everything Dan suggests.
Posted by starkadder3658 on May 6, 2009 at 6:07 AM · Report
kim in portland 24
Dan, great job.

SMS- Bless you. You sound like a great parent, your son is lucky.

HDTH- DTMFA, and find out what is required to obtain a restraining order (I hope you will not need one). You deserve better.
Posted by kim in portland on May 6, 2009 at 7:23 AM · Report
Confluence 25
Awesome advice for HDTH! What I love about Dan's advice is that there's no pussy-footing. He's not afraid to say, "Get the hell out of the relationship," which is great because he's absolutely right and this girl needs an order right now lest she gets sucked into more of this guy's bullshit. And the metaphor of "the dog shit with sprinkles on top" was absolutely perfect too. Makes it crystal clear what this poor girl is dealing with. Advice for SMS great too -- taught me (a straight woman) a lot about seeing things from another perspective. So thanks!

Great column these week, Dan -- keep it up!
Posted by Confluence on May 6, 2009 at 7:55 AM · Report
26
Dan hit it out of the park with his first response.
Posted by My Name Here on May 6, 2009 at 8:05 AM · Report
27
This is the first time I am commenting, because HDTH's letter to you sounds exactly like something I could have written myself when I was younger.

HDTH - Listen to Dan! He is right on the fucking money. I ignored all of my friends' advice - as well as my gut instincts - and stayed with the guy for NINE YEARS. I stayed with him even when he destroyed the front room, even when he threw drinks in my face, even when he ripped up my books for reading when he wanted my attention, even when he sat on my chest and punched me in the face and choked me into unconsciousness. Yet I stayed with him because I thought I loved him, and because I felt like all of his problems with his temper were my fault, were the fault of his childhood, of his ex-girlfriend - everyone pretty much except him.

But then of course, I finally left him, because life is too fucking short to spend it living in terror of an emotional infant, and I ended up meeting someone with whom I was truly in love, and who truly loved me. Because this is the thing - if someone loves you, they respect you as a person. They love you for all of you, not what they want from you. They don't try to scare you or get in your face or disrespect you. Love and fear cannot coexist. You cannot love someone you are afraid of.

And I'll tell you what. Things will not change for as long as you are still with him. He will throw his fits and destroy your stuff, and he'll apologize for it, but he will not change his behavior, because by staying, you are showing him that he CAN do these things and that he will NOT be held accountable for his behavior. He has no incentive to change, because he knows you will always be around no matter how horribly he behaves. Not that it is even your responsibility to change him. Your responsibility is to yourself and no one else.

So please, please, please, get out now. You know this situation is not right. Listen to your gut and leave before it escalates and you find yourself even more entangled than you already are now.
More...
Posted by Caitlin on May 6, 2009 at 8:18 AM · Report
28
Hopelessly Devoted should leave immediately, before she becomes "hopelessly broken". I left an abusive friendship 3 years ago, but it didn't leave me. There were so many times when she was verbally abusive or she humiliated me in front of our friends and I thought about ditching her and I didn't. Even though I finally walked away, it was too late. It was after the abuse escalated and things had gone seriously wrong. I spent one shitty, scary year living with her. If I had ditched her when it was just verbal abuse I would be much better off.

As it turns out she is in some kind of trouble with the law. I've been under investigation for at least 2.5 years that I know about, possibly longer, simply for being friends with the wrong person. I've been harassed at work, at home, in public and it's probably not going to stop anytime soon. I hope she gets what she deserves someday, even if it takes the rest of my life to see her go to jail. This bitch deserves worse than I could ever give her myself. I hope she gets a life sentence or worse.
Posted by ex-friends with ex-con on May 6, 2009 at 8:33 AM · Report
29
Just wanted to say, SMS's letter and Dan's response brought tears to my eyes. I'm not sure if they're tears of joy for the pure unconditional love of a parent, or tears of sadness for all the people I've known who did not have such a supportive experience of coming out. Maybe things are changing for the better -- they are in one house in North Carolina that I know of. Wouldn't it be grand?
Posted by TheCoop on May 6, 2009 at 8:52 AM · Report
30
Although knowing you are gay and coming out at 14 is truely brave, he will be missing all the sleep overs since the parent thinks they will be sexual. And you know what, they may just be. 14 through 17 were the major years for experimentation with my "straight" buddies. It was ackward, exciting and mind blowing. It's a shame he won't be able to experience most of this. Best of luck to this young man.
Posted by Videodude on May 6, 2009 at 9:07 AM · Report
31
@ YAYCBS, why write to someone that you dislike soo much?

DAN I think you do a GREAT FUCKING JOB! I always look forward to reading your articles. You brighten up my week so, Brush those haters off!

BTW- I had also thought the first article was written by a mother too! Guess I was wrong
Posted by savage lover on May 6, 2009 at 9:26 AM · Report
32
mmmmm, sprinkles. sprinkles are nice but not if you have to pick them off poo. get the heck out, it's not worth the moments of bliss. so much easier said than done, but you have to. best of luck, HD.
Posted by ribs on May 6, 2009 at 9:37 AM · Report
33
He's right, HDTH. Damn fine advice.
Posted by Reps on May 6, 2009 at 9:45 AM · Report
34
I don't understand how women end up in long term abusive relationships. I grew up the victim of a father like this, and I didn't have any choice in the matter. I also wished with all my heart every day for 11 years that my mother would kill him and get it over with. It's not fair. You don't want to bring children under the command of someone like that.
Posted by Rachel on May 6, 2009 at 10:03 AM · Report
TheMisanthrope 35
Your advice to SMS is good and bad.

By 14, I had had sex during sleepovers in the closet. :-) By not allowing sleepovers, you're creating a sex-cautious environment that causes the kids to go fuck like bunnies in the forest or parks. *By fuck, I am not merely referring to the act of anal sex, but oral and masturbation. **By 14, I had had anal sex, so its not out of the question. 14-year-old boys want to fuck, maybe slightly less than their slightly older counter-parts. And, they will find places to do it. You might as well create an appropriate place for it.

On the other hand, I agree that being supportive does not mean letting him do whomever he wants. Just create an environment where he can go to practice safe sex with appropriate people and he will probably make better choices...and, if he doesn't, ground the fucker!
Posted by TheMisanthrope on May 6, 2009 at 10:04 AM · Report
precogpunk 36
Overall a pretty mainstream column this week. Let's get back to the freaks asking for advice on pegging, scubba-gear fetishes and rape fantasy. And I mean freaks in a good way. :)
Posted by precogpunk on May 6, 2009 at 10:55 AM · Report
Eva Hopkins 37
Wow. Dan, it has been awhile since I read both letters in your column & was wildly enthusiastic in my agreement with both of your responses. You knocked it outta the park, this week. & you're right, that kid is damn lucky to have this understanding, supportive father.

Hopelessly Devoted: Listen to Dan. That's classic abusive behavior - & you're allowing/enabling it to occur. It doesn't matter if the good times outnumber the bad times. What he's doing to you is violent & one day it'll be you he's hitting, not just your stuff. Get a friend w/ a truck & get out, even if you have to do it when he's not around. & for awhile after that, check in with your friends & family, okay? This guy sounds like the vengeful type.

There's lots of non-asshole men out there, but this ain't one of 'em - he sounds even past therapy help. Go ASAP, protect yourself.
Posted by Eva Hopkins http://www.myspace.com/lunamusestudios on May 6, 2009 at 11:06 AM · Report
38
Great work Dan. I always look forward to Wednesdays so I can see the new column. Also, it's so nice to see examples of really great parents.
Posted by AK on May 6, 2009 at 11:31 AM · Report
39
Hey Dan, I've been reading your column for years, and will continue to do so until one of us dies. Honestly, I thought you were kind of an arrogant bastard at times, and sometimes your columns used to piss me off because you were frequently biased and insensitive...which, fine, maybe you were a little and still are at times. But overall, I've come to appreciate the meaning behind your words, and I think your columns are amazing. Saw you on youtube the other day, shared you with a friend who has troubles reading. Next time I have an insecurity/sex problem, I'm going to youtube so I can listen to tell it like it is. I think you're one of the smartest people alive where it matters. Now I'll end my overly-appreciative fan rant...You rock! Thanks!
Posted by spite on May 6, 2009 at 11:55 AM · Report
40
"Going between the hedges" should mean the butt-cheek equivalent of "titty fucking," i.e. when a penis (or dildo, I suppose) is slid between the "hedges" of one's butt-cheeks.
Posted by bcjane on May 6, 2009 at 11:59 AM · Report
41
"Between the hedges," definition #2...It reminds me of a limerick:

There was a young queen of Bulgaria
Whose bush had grown hairier and hairier
'Till a prince from Peru
Who came up for a screw
Had to hunt for her cunt with a terrier
Posted by just lurking on May 6, 2009 at 12:22 PM · Report
42
HDTH,
I've been there. I understand that when the good times are good they are really good and it can be so convincing. But trust Dan on this. I think his sprinkles on a dogshit sundae is a perfect analogy. If you don't leave this guy now, you will wake up 5 years from now wondering why the F you wasted the best years of your young life with him. I know. I did.

Having trouble understanding this guy or why you feel so hooked on him? Read the book "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft. You can get it on Amazon. You can download it on your kindle! I didn't read the book until many years after I'd "gotten out" but it helped me understand what the F was going on all those years he made my life a roller coaster from hell. He wasn't "sensitive," he had Borderline Personality Disorder and the good times were just the calm between his psychological shit storms! Wish I'd read this book when I was 22 and left his ass three years sooner!

Don't waste your life! DTMFA!!
Posted by ameliorist on May 6, 2009 at 12:39 PM · Report
43
Ahhh, I LOVE Garfunkel and Oates!! Thanks for mentioning them, Dan!
Posted by The Dactyl on May 6, 2009 at 12:55 PM · Report
44
good advice to HDTH dan... too bad she won't listen to you. you're now officially classified as one of those "people who can't stand him" and therefore dismissed. i was there once too. she'll have to hit rock bottom before she leaves, and maybe then she'll find that there are guys out there who will give you the bliss 24/7.
Posted by justme on May 6, 2009 at 12:58 PM · Report
Uriel-238 45
For some reason I'm bothered more than usual about the "men are pigs" generalization, especially since I've put so much work into not being a pig, myself.

I'd say some men are pigs, or that men are sometimes pigs, or that men can be pigs, but I don't think that men are intrinsically pigs, at least no more than are women.

Naked apes, assuredly and unabashedly. Pigs, not necessarily.

Other than that, awesome answers, Dan.
Posted by Uriel-238 on May 6, 2009 at 1:00 PM · Report
46
dog shit w/sprinkles best metaphor ever !
Posted by l on May 6, 2009 at 1:21 PM · Report
47
HDTH may consider that her partner is suffering Boderline Personality Disorder.
Posted by pulpoamor on May 6, 2009 at 2:35 PM · Report
48
HDTH - I have been in EXACTLY the same situation in the past, and got out and realized it was the best thing I had ever done to leave. I had thought he was the man I would marry. Trust me - we can be 100% sure that someone behaves like that will not change, no matter how good the "good times" seem - and you will be happier and your life will be so much better than you know right now when you're out. I promise!
Posted by whatkatiedid on May 6, 2009 at 2:37 PM · Report
49
Listen to Dan, HDTH!!! In my early 20's I met and lived with a woman who was exactly like your boyfriend. The good times were great and the bad times were BAD. She constantly eroded my self worth, belittled me in front of my friends, and threatened to destroy my life if I left. At one point I told my coworkers to call the police if I didn't come to work. I was young and figured that was how normal relationships worked.

She was at a company outing when I had the few friends I had left come over and help me move (4 hours). I ended up moving to another state to get away from her completely. It turned out she was bipolar and had been institutionalized prior to me meeting her.

I look back and hate the fact that she wasted 2 1/2 years of my life. On the upside, I am a better man for having to suffer through it. It did take a long time to recover and rebuild myself.
Posted by 39 & survived the nut (not w/o scars tho) on May 6, 2009 at 2:49 PM · Report
50
I almost laughed aloud when I read HDTH's letter. reading it was like reading my last relationship. I wish i'd known of this column when I was in the 3 years of hell. The advice you gave her was perfect. Thank you for always saying what needs to be said and for your sweet and perfect advice to SMS. <3
Posted by Wicked on May 6, 2009 at 3:09 PM · Report
51
OMG! To the "people who don't like him" comment! That is EXACTLY how my friend justifies her marriage. Anyone who says boo shit diddly against her obviously fucked up marriage "is against him." Which, ironically is exactly what HE says whenever anyone has the unmitigated temerity to offer an opinion contrary to his (wanna go get pancakes? No, I'm in the mood for omelettes. 2 hours later: they're against me.)

Goddamn. It's so easy to see from the outside and IMPOSSIBLE for the person in the relationship to notice. Like tuning bagpipes, I guess.
Posted by MinnySota on May 6, 2009 at 3:38 PM · Report
52
@Delta: Dan edits the letters and the details that he sees sometimes don't make it into the final version. The original letter probably had "I'm a dad..." in there somewhere.
Posted by Andy Roo on May 6, 2009 at 3:46 PM · Report
53
@49 I am sorry you ended up in such a crummy relationship. I want to let you know though -- bipolar & institutionalized does not equal abusive and terrifying. Some of we formerly institutionalized bipolar chicks are primarily gentle, loving people. I say this because so many times I hear people blame abusive behavior on craziness, but mentally ill people are usually not abusive. In any case I'm really glad for you that you got out and got over her!
Posted by anonymous on May 6, 2009 at 3:47 PM · Report
54
I'm liable to be flamed for this but: Who's the abusive one in HDTH's relationship? We heard her side of the story (eg, he's parinoid that she's cheating on him (does he have a reason to be?), she cries when break-up talk happens, he gets mad and throws her stuff to the curb... etc).

However, who's controling who? It could just as easily be a situation where she's taking advantage of him, cheating on him, etc, then playing the "I'll get better, really I will this time" game when break-up time really happens. I've known women who seem to enjoy the "see what it takes to make the guy angry" game in the past (constantly belittling them, accusing the guy of cheating if he just goes to play pool with the guys (even if she was invited), meanwhile telling the guy it's none of his business what she's doing when she goes out late without him... then blame the guy when he finally get upset and talks back... I've seen guy's lives get ruined by such women. Heck, I've dated such women.

Just because one of the people in the relationship is a guy, it doesn't automatically mean all the problems are solely the guys fault.

Anyway regardless of who's the "bad" one in HDTH's relationship, it's not a healthy one. They should break up.

Posted by cal on May 6, 2009 at 4:06 PM · Report
55
@45: nah, we're pigs.

While most of us try to be human, if you're going to be a clueless, vulnerable, and easy lay, your danger quotient goes way, WAY up if pursued by a pack of predatory men than a pack of predatory women.

In fact, who in the hell gets pursued by a pack of predatory women?
Posted by woof on May 6, 2009 at 4:40 PM · Report
56
Garfunkel and Oates are hilarious.
Posted by guessha on May 6, 2009 at 5:53 PM · Report
57
HDTH- you probably know that Dan is right- but just in case you were tempted to keep on trying to make it work, I just want you to know I have been in the very same boat- if I was lucky enough to have known about Dan when I was with this guy I would have written the same letter word for word. Breaking my stuff, the jealousy, the crying, and of course the BLISS.. please break up with this guy- find a way to get away from him and make it difficult for him to contact you- this will not get better I tried for 4 years to make it all the Bliss and none of the other stuff, but it won't work. Get away from him and find the person who treats you well all the time not just when he need to make amends for his abusive behavior...
Posted by Been There on May 6, 2009 at 6:13 PM · Report
58
HDTH, I'm a guy and was dating a girl a few years back. Apart from the gender reversal, the situation was remarkably similar (breaking my stuff, very controlling, all sorts of other crap). My parents said DTMFA, my friends said DTMFA, hell, I wanted to DTMFA (you do too, says your letter). But when I tried: World War Three, and I backed down.

In spite of wanting to end it, I told myself the same lie (I really want to make it work, I have a lot invested in the relationship, blah blah blah). In hindsight, this was some minor feelings of insecurity, blown up by her, making me feel like I was useless if I couldn't make it work.

Tell yourself that it's bullshit, talk to your friends and parents (the ones who are 'against' him), and ditch the asshole. Being single and dating is so much fun that happily married people wish they could do it.

Get yourself single, and have some fun.
Posted by Rophuine on May 6, 2009 at 7:29 PM · Report
59
I must reply to 54, who asks "who's controling who," suggests that HDTH could be equally at fault, and talks about relationships where the female partner engages in controlling behavior:

Um, 54, go back to the letter that was written, not your unrelated experiences. Throwing things, breaking things, and name calling all amount to one thing--an abuser. Your commentary about "women can be controlling and bad too" has nothing to do with the situation described. For on thing, HDTH could also be a man: Dan may have edited the letter, but there is no indication in the letter that HDTH is necessarily female. And even if HDTH is female, Dan's reply is still spot-on. He does not tell HDTH that all men are abusers: he tells HDTH to DTMFA, which is excellent advice.

HDTH, if you are reading this, please please follow the advice of Dan & the other excellent posts here that are speaking to your situation and get yourself out, NOW.
Posted by Allyson on May 6, 2009 at 7:30 PM · Report
60
Dan, you are THE BEST. Thanks for being one of the few advice columnists willing to really GIVE ADVICE. I just gave that exact "abusers are nice some of the time to keep you coming back for more" lecture to my teenaged foster daughter last night, no joke. What great timing. I sent the link on to her just so she knows her dad's not just some old fart with no clue what he's talking about.

And kudoes on the testosterone comment too. Very quotable. Treating a young gay man as if he were a daughter, protection-wise? Brilliant. As someone who began life in another gender without testosterone, and then started taking it in his 20s, I know exactly what it feels like with and without the stuff. I mean we're talking about a substance that can make a died-in-the-wool feminist lesbian start to unconsciously ogle boobs and feel like a barely-restrained grabbypants. I have no idea how 14 year old boys swimming in the stuff manage to be even moderately decent human beings.

All in all a stellar column.
Posted by savagefan on May 6, 2009 at 7:36 PM · Report
61
Dan, you are THE BEST. Thanks for being one of the few advice columnists willing to really GIVE ADVICE. I just gave that exact "abusers are nice some of the time to keep you coming back for more" lecture to my teenaged foster daughter last night, no joke. What great timing. I sent the link on to her just so she knows her dad's not just some old fart with no clue what he's talking about.

And kudoes on the testosterone comment too. Very quotable. Treating a young gay man as if he were a daughter, protection-wise? Brilliant. As someone who began life in another gender without testosterone, and then started taking it in his 20s, I know exactly what it feels like with and without the stuff. I mean we're talking about a substance that can make a died-in-the-wool feminist lesbian start to unconsciously ogle boobs and feel like a barely-restrained grabbypants. I have no idea how 14 year old boys swimming in the stuff manage to be even moderately decent human beings.

All in all a stellar column.
Posted by savagefan2 on May 6, 2009 at 7:47 PM · Report
62
Dan, you are THE BEST. Thanks for being one of the few advice columnists willing to really GIVE ADVICE. I just gave that exact "abusers are nice some of the time to keep you coming back for more" lecture to my teenaged foster daughter last night, no joke. What great timing. I sent the link on to her just so she knows her dad's not just some old fart with no clue what he's talking about.

And kudoes on the testosterone comment too. Very quotable. Treating a young gay man as if he were a daughter, protection-wise? Brilliant. As someone who began life in another gender without testosterone, and then started taking it in his 20s, I know exactly what it feels like with and without the stuff. I mean we're talking about a substance that can make a died-in-the-wool feminist lesbian start to unconsciously ogle boobs and feel like a barely-restrained grabbypants. I have no idea how 14 year old boys swimming in the stuff manage to be even moderately decent human beings.

All in all a stellar column.
Posted by savagefan3 on May 6, 2009 at 7:58 PM · Report
Uriel-238 63
Woof @55, I'm more bothered about it today than I expect that I'd usually be, but it's sexist to presume a given man is more vulnerable or more predatory than a given woman. Even if the crime stats were to show that men are more often the instigators or perpetrators of domestic violence (which they don't), even then, it doesn't mean we're all pigs. It certainly doesn't mean SMS's son's beau is a pig.

It doesn't mean he's not either, and SMS should certainly give the lad a good sound sniffing over, but it sucks for a guy to be presumed one's a fucker until proven otherwise just as much as it does for gays to be presumed to be pederasts until proven otherwise. Maybe it's naïve of me, but my experience so far has shown that most aren't.
Posted by Uriel-238 on May 6, 2009 at 8:55 PM · Report
64
Sprinkles in dog shit, brilliant metaphor!

Sometimes it can be harder to leave a man that is abusive only 50% (or less) of the time because it allows you to consider and appreciate the other 50% of the time that is not abusive.

HDTH you will know when the is right time comes, when you cannot take it anymore and at that time you won’t even care about your friend’s opinion, leaving all your stuff behind or being the target of a revenge.

Write down all the shit he is putting you through so you don’t forget how mean he can be, one tend to forget about the bad episodes when things are going ok, and you gotta remember about that shit when you are packing your stuff and putting his pictures in the trash.
Posted by abc on May 6, 2009 at 9:04 PM · Report
65
Well, woof, the Bacchae sho nuff went after Pentheus, did they not?
Posted by Absurdist on May 6, 2009 at 9:20 PM · Report
66
On HDTH's letter - Thank you, Dan! As someone who studies partner abuse I know you are spot on. When one is in the middle of a bad relationship, surviving day by day, it is difficult to piece together the problem and see the patterns. Wonderful advice!
Posted by Natalie on May 6, 2009 at 10:26 PM · Report
67
I don't see why you had to name Miss CA a "dumb bitch." If she's a dumb bitch, then you're a dumb prick. I just hate to see it so casually tossed around.
Posted by XXX on May 6, 2009 at 10:49 PM · Report
anh 68
HDTH...your friends aren't telling you to leave because they hate his guts...well, maybe they are, but think of the reason they hate him. They know how he treats you, they love you and they hate the way he treats you. They wouldn't hate him if he was ACTUALLY good for you (and good TO you). GET THE FUCK OUT! There are other men worth much more of your time and attention...who will give it to you in return without abuse. Once you actually commit to leaving and get over the entire relationship, move on with your life, etc. you'll think back and be grateful that you left.
Posted by anh on May 6, 2009 at 10:56 PM · Report
69
Great column on both issues. Unfortunately, in my small town, my son can't take another guy to a dance. He is the "gay prom escort king" with his good looks and manners. But he is sad- but doesn't want to create problems for others (straights) enjoying the prom with dancing with a boy date. He has created enough conflict just with the "Diversity Clubs" (read GSA) in the community. I treat him just as you say, as a vulnerable daughter. He is always being hit on, even in this small town and I watch him like a hawk. Thanks, Dan , for good stuff and it is really the only place I can find this advice. I hope this generation will be blessed with more self respect. (PFLAG Mom)
Posted by Small Town PFLAG MoM on May 6, 2009 at 11:16 PM · Report
70
Thank you, thank you, thank you Dan for what you said to HDTH! So few people know very much about domestic violence (or know how to talk about it for that matter) that I'm glad you did. This fact is even more surprising considering that 1 in 3 women experiences DV worldwide.
Posted by tempus-fugit(ive) on May 6, 2009 at 11:51 PM · Report
71
Right on, Dan. Great advice this week - every parent of a gay kid and every man or woman in an abusive relationship better be reading this.

@63 - It definitely sucks to be on the receiving end of unending parental scrutiny, as my poor boyfriend can attest - but it's understandable, to a certain level. Not all men are pervy pricks, but some of them can be. And they can get violent. It's in SMS's best interests, and even more in the best interests of his or her son, to do everything within reason to prevent the kid from getting into, say, HDTH's situation, especially at such a tender young age.

(And yes, women can be violent pervy pricks too - but it's a lot less likely to happen, if statistics are worth anything.)
Posted by Terry Nguyen on May 7, 2009 at 1:02 AM · Report
72
Mr. Savage, I just saw you on the Larry King show. In my opinion your "stepping" on the statements of the other guest hurt your argument. You were rude, which makes you seem immature.
Posted by Bruce on May 7, 2009 at 1:06 AM · Report
JF 73
@72 - Savage is the king of talking over people on television. It's as if he's never had a conversation with anyone before.

Great column though.
Posted by JF on May 7, 2009 at 7:51 AM · Report
74
Outstanding advice on both counts today, Dan.
Posted by Meestah Kay on May 7, 2009 at 7:52 AM · Report
75
@10 - right on. This is one lucky kid. When I was 14 (and having realized that OK, this is not just a phase, I really am gay), the nuclear incident at Three Mile Island happened. My dad's reaction to it was: "That's what they should do with all the queers -- put them to work in nuclear power plants, so if anything happens, nobody has to worry about it." Hmmm... Dad, you know that thing I was going to talk to you about? That can wait.

Posted by this guy I know in Spokane on May 7, 2009 at 8:21 AM · Report
76
oh, and @72/73 -- Savage has said before that a favorite tactic on talk shows is to just keep talking until the clock runs out, so if anyone wants to get a word in, they HAVE to interrupt. I guess he _could_ have just sat there saying "yes, but--" until the commercial break.
Posted by this guy I know in Spokane on May 7, 2009 at 8:23 AM · Report
77
Garfunkle & Oats = a female Corky & the Juice Pigs
Posted by b on May 7, 2009 at 9:00 AM · Report
78
@54: "Just because one of the people in the relationship is a guy, it doesn't automatically mean all the problems are solely the guys fault."

Didn't see Dan say that. It looks like he focused on what the guy's actions -- while you looked at gender. It's a fair point you make, but I'm not sure it's terribly relevant in this particular situation; we could speculate all day on who's doing what to whom, but the fact is only one of them wrote in.
Posted by Gloria on May 7, 2009 at 9:06 AM · Report
79
@54: Also, further to my previous post @78, if HDTH does share blame for the boyfriend's behaviour, it still doesn't excuse his throwing and breaking things ... unless we're going to speculate whether HDTH's been threatening him with bodily harm.
Posted by Gloria on May 7, 2009 at 9:09 AM · Report
80
Dan, You nailed it on your response to HDTH's problem. That fucktard she's with is an abuser and the relationship is codependent. I have been down that path and it's hard to leave -- but once you get out and have perspective, you can see the forest through the trees. Get out, HDTH. Get your closest guy friends to come help you pack up and move out. Get a plan together over the next several days and pull the trigger. Do it now and don't look back.
Posted by 2dog on May 7, 2009 at 9:28 AM · Report
81
Dan's advice and (most of) the comments to HDTH are exactly right. Some additional information for HDTH may be helpful though.
As background, I served as a prosecutor in King County, WA, during the period it was setting up its integrated domestic abuse program that brought together prosecutors, judges, domestic violence advocates and counselors, police, probation and defense attorneys to address a serious problem that needed additional focus and resources. I continue to work as a family law attorney and deal with these issues on a regular basis.

HDTH,
You need to realize that there is a difference between someone with just an anger problem and a real domestic abuser. There are recognized patterns that help identify the abuser, and your letter clearly identifies many of those patterns including control by monitoring and interfering with your daily schedule and activities, isolating you from friends and family both actively and by putting you in a position where you have to choose between them and him, demeaning you to lessen your self-esteem and make you more dependent on him, making you feel responsible for his outbursts because you're not good enough, and a spiral of violence that is increasing in both frequency and destructiveness followed by periods of profuse apologies, promises to change and a "honeymoon" period. None of this because "I can't stand him," but because there is a large and growing body of information on this subject, and because he is demonstrating classic abuser behavior.
You need to get out, get out now, AND get out safely. This last point is very important. The key to abuse is not anger or violence, but control. An abuser feels the greatest loss of control at the point when the relationship is being severed, and at that point is most likely to escalate emotional control and violence. The patterns you have described indicate that your situation is advanced enough that you should create AND FOLLOW a specific safety plan to exit this relationship. A safety plan often involves getting friends and family coordinated and informed with the timing of the exit, close contact with everyone involved, setting aside money, a spare set of keys and an extra no-contract cell phone away from anywhere he has access to. I strongly advise consider getting a restraining order against him and a civil standby to get your belongings. The courts, police, women's shelters and social service agencies have trained domestic violence counselors who can help you develop a safety plan to fit your needs and situation. If you live in a place that doesn't have local resources, go to a friend's house or a public phone and call a city or county that does have counselors. They will talk to you and help even if you don't live nearby. If you can't do any of these things, grab what you can now, and go to an undisclosed place, be it friend, family or shelter. Anything you leave behind is just stuff. You and your safety are more important.
Often, the toughest prosecution cases we had to deal with were choking cases. It is often extremely difficult to determine the difference between a misdemeanor Assault 4 case and Premeditated Attempted Murder. For the victim, the difference between a brief, scary moment and death may be just a few seconds, or a matter of luck. It's not worth the risk! Violence often starts with emotional control, then becomes insults, then damage to physical property, then violence against the person, then serious violence, and there is no telling when an abuser might skip a few steps.
Good luck and be safe. The National Domestic Abuse Hotline is 1-800-799-7233 or TTY 1-800-787-3224

BTW, To #63 "Even if the crime stats were to show that men are more often the instigators or perpetrators of domestic violence (which they don't). . ." - You're absolutely wrong. Even accounting for under-reporting by male victims, all reasonable analysis consistently documents the vast majority of victims of domestic abuse are female. The American Institute on Domestic Violence states that women are the victims 85-95%.

P.S. If this is too long, please edit as necessary, and forward the entire submission to HDTH, if you can do so safely.
More...
Posted by Mr.E. on May 7, 2009 at 10:05 AM · Report
82
Dan, you've guided me through a minefield in my relationships, I've read your column for years.

This is probably small fries, but the folks on the Equality subreddit are discussing your "men are pigs" paragraph.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Equality/comment…

Most contributors on this subreddit are passionate and fair-minded about men and women's rights, and I can see your comment will stir up some useful ideas.

Please, please, please be a part of the discussion.
Posted by kapongham on May 7, 2009 at 10:19 AM · Report
bwvalentine 83
<3 you dan. you are the best.
Posted by bwvalentine http://www.brandywinevalentine.com on May 7, 2009 at 11:27 AM · Report
84
Did I miss something? Why did we automatically assume SMS is a dad as opposed to a mom?
Posted by chucktastic on May 7, 2009 at 11:28 AM · Report
Paxlotl 85
i agree that sms's kid needs to be careful, but why subscribe to antiquated gender paradigms when raising your children? maybe the reason "men are pigs" is because they're "raised like men". we need to raise people as people who treat people like people. and what does that mean to be "raised like a girl" anyway? I'm a male and i have a sister and fortunately enough my parent's had the same rules for both of us. She's never been taken advantage of or abused by a man and now is in med school. then again i did turn out gay so maybe they should have raised us differently. just kidding.
Posted by Paxlotl on May 7, 2009 at 11:42 AM · Report
lilwitchmel 86
I just wanted to tell you that you are fabulous. I discovered your work through a friend who posted some of your stuff on facebook and have been hooked ever since.

I live in Alberta Canada, and I am so glad that (thanks to the internet) I have been able to follow your work. My parents are lesbians and they are absolutely wonderful. I could not have asked for better. However I saw how hard things were for them when I was young. How very little support and understanding they had. It was hard for me too, mostly because I was proud of them and didn't care who knew it.

As times change I am very happy to be raising my children with the full understanding of who my parents are and what homosexuality is. We take them to Pride Parade every year, and they love it. They are surrounded by wonderful straight and gay people alike.

Although there are still battles to be fought and won I feel blessed to live in a time and place where my parents could be married after 27 years together(now 29). They deserved someone like you to hear about and follow years ago.

I think the ways in which you work for and serve not only your gay community, but they worlds gay population is just awesome! Keep on keeping on.

Forever a fan
Melanie
<3
Posted by lilwitchmel on May 7, 2009 at 11:43 AM · Report
87
Hi Dan! Love your column and podcast, and upon visiting your facebook page, discovered that my mom is a fan too. Now I know what to get her for mother's day- one of your books (probably "The Kid" because it sounds extremely touching and as always, funny as hell!) Thanks!
Posted by Mighty Kaytor on May 7, 2009 at 12:26 PM · Report
88
Oh, Savage. You're the best.
Posted by a/o on May 7, 2009 at 12:32 PM · Report
89
My kids are too young to need this advice, but it was so good, I'm going to remember it whether they turn out straight or gay!

Thanks for the pearls.
Posted by formallyblonde on May 7, 2009 at 12:36 PM · Report
90
As the parent of a gay teenager, I am especially thankful for Dan's advice to SMS. One thing he doesn't mention that I struggle with is what to do when my son dates someone who is not out to his parents.

As a parent, I feel bad facilitating a child's lie to their parents. As an open minded person, I rationalize this by saying if their kid could come out to them a lie wouldn't be necessary. I've drawn the line at the other kid's parents have to know where they are and basically what they are doing but am very careful to never in any way imply an activity is a "date" and gloss over details if asked. Is this wrong? Any thoughts?
Posted by randomletters on May 7, 2009 at 1:59 PM · Report
91
I didn't read through everyone's comments yet (sorry, guys, I'll get to it), but I just wanted to say that when Dan said "no sleepovers for your gay kid", he meant sleepovers with the boyfriend. Not sleepovers in general. Look back at his response if you don't believe me. Or, to save the trouble, here's the quote:

"No responsible parent would allow his 14-year-old daughter...to have sleepovers with her slightly older boyfriend, right? So no sleepovers for your gay kid. "

Only the boyfriend sleeping over, not sleepovers in general. The advice to SMS was great, and made me think about parenting in a way I hadn't before. Thanks, Dan!
Posted by Cora on May 7, 2009 at 3:49 PM · Report
92
While most of the column gave great advice, I have a challenge with this statement: "people on the receiving end of male sexual desire/attention are in more danger than people on the receiving end of female sexual desire/attention. (In general—individual results may vary.) Testosterone is the crystal meth of hormones, a badass drug, and men are more likely to be abusive and violent." Statistics show that about 30% of straight or gay/lesbian relationships involve domestic violence (lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbianhealth/a…;). Furthermore, "About 17-45% of lesbians report having been the victim of a least one act of physical violence perpetrated by a lesbian partner" (www.musc.edu/vawprevention/lesbianrx/fac…;). This means that people involved in women-women intimate partnerships (and their parents, friends, etc.) should be aware that "danger" and abuse and violence can happen just as easily in those relationship. In fact, batterers can use the myth that violence/danger/abuse doesn't happen in same-sex relationships that involve women against the survivor by making them feel crazy or wrong for thinking they could be in an abusive relationship.
Posted by someone on May 7, 2009 at 4:00 PM · Report
93
Did I miss something in the letter by "Still my Son" that implied the LW was a man and not a woman? Dan and others assume it was written by a father. Why?
-----------
Without reading the 91 comments posted to date, I must say I assumed it was the dad because it's a REAL stretch for me to think the mom would have "the sex talk several times" with a son, and a teenage son wouldn't willingly tell his mom much even once, let alone several times. JMTC.
Posted by Robin on May 7, 2009 at 4:05 PM · Report
94
I cried like a baby after reading the letter from SMS and Dan's thoughtful, compassionate reply. I have many gay male friends, now in their 30s and 40s that still don't have the love and support of their families. I believe it lead many times to their seeking love and acceptance in the wrong places (i.e. cruel older gay men that took advantage of their need for a father figure). Thanks Dan, wonderful job!
Posted by bloomedat35 on May 7, 2009 at 4:19 PM · Report
95
Spot-on as (almost) always, Dan. Tho I am curious - how did you know the cool dad in the first letter was a dad? It read like a woman's letter, to me...maybe I just wouldn't expect a guy to use the phrase "petting and kissing."

Regardless, that's some seriously loving, well-adjusted parenting going on. If only more parents were that supportive, there would be a lot more loving, well-adjusted kids in the world (gay and straight.)
Posted by miaCulpa on May 7, 2009 at 5:10 PM · Report
96
Sorry to pile on, HDTH, but pleeeease listen to Dan and leave him. I have been there too - in my case gay, but the sickness is the same. It took me years afterward to realize my boyfriend was shrinking me as a human being. He was chipping away my self-confidence and self-esteem, which made me feel smaller, and made him seem bigger and more special in comparison. So of course when he held me in his forgiving arms, and gave me that magic smile, I felt completely redeemed. This erosion of self-confidence is real damage - some would call it psychic violence. Get out of there and start healing yourself back into the complete, strong, self-assured human being you deserve to be.
Posted by asrfrisco on May 7, 2009 at 5:23 PM · Report
97
Dan, the world is a better place for having you in it. I really enjoy reading your straightforward advice.
Posted by Cindy Irene on May 7, 2009 at 5:48 PM · Report
98
The first letter and your response need to be framed and hung up in every home.

You're still an asshole, Dan, but you done good here.
Posted by Chris in Vancouver WA on May 7, 2009 at 5:51 PM · Report
99
Oh wow, I met a lady sporting centaur-like leg extensions and took a picture with her. Thanks to this week's column, I now know that was the artist Kim Graham. Very cool.
Posted by Phleo on May 7, 2009 at 6:23 PM · Report
100
Excellent advice to the parent of the gay son. As a former 14-year old who was outed to a not-as-cool parent who banned ALL sleep-overs with straight same-sex friends I urge the parent to make it clear that limits on the son's relationship are not punitive but rather meant to help reinforce age-appropriate interactions with the boyfriend.
Posted by Donore on May 7, 2009 at 8:20 PM · Report
Sirius Black 101
Dan, you're awesome. Just a quibble in your otherwise excellent advice to SMS. Women are in fact as likely to be abusive as men are. It's just that men are more likely to get charged and convicted. See Gelles and Steinmetz and plenty other authorities on this subject.
Posted by Sirius Black on May 8, 2009 at 12:10 AM · Report
xander.m 102
i translated the SMS story into chinese. not sure what i should do with it, so i post it here. hope it can help more people

我14岁的儿子刚向我出柜了。他有个稍微年长一些的男朋友，他们打算在周五晚上参加学校的舞会。我一直以来的怀疑得到了证实。不过，我有点担心我的儿子会受到伤害。我们在北卡罗来那南部，不过我们的小镇有个同志团体和一个每年举行的同性恋自豪游行。当我问他学校的其他学生是否会在意他是同志时，他说：“谁在乎阿？”欺负弱小在他的学校不是个严重的问题。

我们已经就性的话题聊过几次，不过我总是从假定他是异性恋的角度说的。我觉得我儿子还太年轻，不应该留他男朋友过夜，而且我实在非常希望他能在变得性活跃之前再等几年，虽然我觉得一般身体接触和接吻是自然而然的。有什么建议吗？

匿名/还是我儿子（SMS）

以平等的方式，正如我们同志人群一直希望的那样，就像对待你的14岁异性恋孩子一样对待他。没有一个负责任的父母会允许他14岁的女儿（待会再细说这点）和她稍微年长的男朋友过夜，不是吗？所以你的同志儿子也不行。请记住：你完全可以支持他，鼓励他（的性取向），同时不准许他做那些你也不会准许一个异性恋小孩做的事。---事实上，这正是你表现支持的最佳方式。

你还能做些什么？你可以徘徊，细查，干预--所有那些父母们通常在他们的孩子开始约会时做的破事。举个例子，SMS，你的儿子的这个男朋友？你见过他吗？见见他。他到底年纪比他大多少？找出答案。他们在一起时会上床吗？问他们。保证你的儿子明白他不必为了证明自己是同志，或是成年人，或出柜而肛交。他可以慢慢来--他应该慢慢来。鼓励你的儿子约会，拉手，拥抱接吻。你还应该，无论说出来有多尴尬，鼓励你的儿子，在他确实变得性活跃的时候，应该在相当长的一段时间里坚持相互手淫和口交--直到他确定他准备好了发生性交，而不只是急切地想要试试看。

现在回到女儿的话题：你也应该把你的儿子，至少在他的青春期，更多的看作一个女儿而不是儿子。我们倾向于对女儿更加保护--我们的异性恋女儿--胜过对儿子。为什么？一种男权主义的欲望，想要我们的女儿保持“纯洁”？那只是一部分，当然，不过还有这个原因：男人是猪，处在男性欲望和关注的接受端的人们，比起处于女性性欲的接受端的人，要更危险。（这是一般而论，个案自然各有不同。）睾丸激素是荷尔蒙中的兴奋剂，一种强硬的毒品，而且男人们更容易有虐待和暴力倾向。艾滋病在男同性恋中的流行让对你儿子的赌注更高了。所以不要准许他和任何你没见过和批准的人约会，而且千万不要混淆“支持他”和“让他干任何他想干的事和人”。要积极，要投入，而且永远不要停止做他的喜欢管闲事的，总是插手的，过分怀疑的父亲。

祝你好运，SMS。听起来你的儿子有你这样的父亲已经是幸运到极点了。

More...
Posted by xander.m on May 8, 2009 at 1:41 AM · Report
103
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4b0CJebY…
Posted by Charris2587 on May 8, 2009 at 10:05 AM · Report
104
"Testosterone is the crystal meth of hormones"

Absolutely correct and the cause of both so much
delight and so much grief. Only you could have put it so well. Dan Savage at his best.
Posted by babette on May 8, 2009 at 10:59 AM · Report
105
Dan, I'm speechless. I think your first letter should be required reading for ALL parents. I wish every kid had protective but caring parents like that...

Thank you for great letters (and perfect responses!) this week, and I laughed at the Garfunkel & Oates thing. :)
Posted by SaraJean on May 8, 2009 at 11:22 AM · Report
106
Great letters, great advice.

As to the whole question of Dan "assuming" the letter writer was a father, the only evidence I could find of a presumption of maleness was this sentence:

No responsible parent would allow HIS [emphasis mine] 14-year-old daughter—and that's how you should think of him for now (more on that in a moment)—to have sleepovers with her slightly older boyfriend, right?

Thing is, there's no way to write this sentence correctly and expediently without using a gendered pronoun. You could replace the "his" with a "his/her," but that's awkward; you could use "their," which is the lazy, grammatically criminal method most writers use when trying to be inclusive (not to say politically correct) in their pronoun usage.

Aside from that, though, it seems that Dan goes out of his way to refer to the parent as a "parent," rather than as a mother or a father.

I grant that I might be missing something; I'm participating in this conversation from work. :-/
Posted by thelyamhound http://thebayinghound.blogspot.com on May 8, 2009 at 2:53 PM · Report
Rev.Smith 107
@85 You are least half right. Men are raised by men who were raised by men; boys are encouraged if not required to partake in all-boy activities, and learn the lovely typical-male-isms as 'normal'. Women raised like swine (insert snoutbreak joke here) are also pigs, but likewise, most girls have dolls, dresses, and kitchen sets thrust upon them from age 2 even in our so-called modern age, and even on our liberal tie-dyed-in-the-wool city, even in Cap Hill. Grandparents, Media, library books all re-inforce a sad oldfashioned sexism. The environment is such a huge part of what makes a woman or a man.
Posted by Rev.Smith on May 8, 2009 at 3:15 PM · Report
108
Bravo for your responses this week, Dan. And bravo especially to SMS. The world needs more parents like you.
Posted by j on May 8, 2009 at 5:02 PM · Report
109
HDTH listen to Dan please and get out, dump the sick fuck.
I am in an abusive marriage myself and I am working on getting out of this hell before it completely destroys me. It's been nearly two years now and I am already damaged but I am working on that.
Someone here said Love and fear cannot coexist. You cannot love someone you are afraid of.
It is so true. GET OUT while you can please. There are great normal guys out there.
Good luck to you HDTH and thank you Dan for your awesome work.
Posted by Hope on May 9, 2009 at 9:44 AM · Report
110
You are so dead-on with your responses in your column. I look forward to reading your column EVERY single week.
Posted by N'awlins SW on May 9, 2009 at 10:49 AM · Report
111
"Think of the good times as rainbow sprinkles on a dog-shit sundae—sprinkles or no sprinkles, you're still standing there with a bowlful of dog shit in your hands."

positively EPIC...and, more importantly, positively TRUE!!!
Posted by smegmuncher on May 9, 2009 at 1:07 PM · Report
4f...sake 112
HDTH, get the movie, Waitress. Fast forward to the hospital scene. Pay close attention to Keri Russell, specifically when she is holding her brand new baby and talking to her husband. Repeat as necessary. After you have this scene committed to memory, go back and watch the rest of the movie. If this doesn't make sense to you, volunteer at a Women's Shelter for domestic abuse. I would think 1-2 hours a week would be enough.
Posted by 4f...sake on May 9, 2009 at 7:13 PM · Report
113
Just being out to his parents is going to save SMS's son a lot of heartbreak. Being out to one's parents at that age, and having parents that are supportive, means having people with better judgment around you, so you don't get so heavily invested in people who are, after all, assholes.

When I was 14 and 15 years old, I saw all around me that the people who couldn't tell their parents they were dating were the ones who had the most terrible experiences. This meant the closeted gay kids, the redneck girls with black boyfriends, and the uber puritan raised girls. Homophobia, racism and sexist religion ultimately meant that the kids all had tunnel vision, they saw their mate as this halo'd creature because they were young and dumb, and since it had to be a secret, there was no one else they could turn to, and their mate had complete control.

So they put up with abuse, physical, emotional, sexual, the whole gambit, because they didn't know better, and didn't feel well enough about themselves to confidently say "no, that's not ok."

Unfortunately, I was in that crew for a while, with a girlfriend who coerced me and manipulated me and made me feel like shit for a long time.

I guess the lesson is "secrecy is poisonous." And, of course, "you can BE a dick without actually having one."
Posted by JudT on May 9, 2009 at 9:59 PM · Report
114
I'm with everyone else, Dan--you really did hit it out of the park this week. The advice for SMS was brilliant and definitely an interesting (and insightful) perspective, and your point about abusers' MO in the second letter was spot on.

And @ 41: I love the limerick.
Posted by peri on May 10, 2009 at 12:44 AM · Report
115
The parents can get tested TOGETHER for A VARIETY of STDs. Then tell their kid about it. Getting tested TOGETHER for A VARIETY of STDs is a good idea for the kid and his sex partner. Sexual health checkups reduce ambiguity and can be like anything else they do together.
Posted by don warner saklad on May 10, 2009 at 3:43 AM · Report
116
To HDTH: Dan's right: DTMFA!!! Your current boyfriend is a controlling, sack o' monkeyshit, manipulative pigasaurus rex asshole (and for your sake, I hope he isn't my ex-husband)!

Dump the piece of shit and get on with your life. If you still don't agree, re-read Ameliorist's and 4f...sake's blogs.
Better yet, watch the film Once Were Warriors, and get out while you still can.

Right on, Ameliorist---I can relate. I left an abusive relationship from hell, too.

Have courage, HDTH. I hope everything works out for the better for you.

Posted by livedtotell.... on May 10, 2009 at 5:11 AM · Report
117
To HDTH: Dan's right: DTMFA!!! Your current boyfriend is a controlling, sack o' monkeyshit, manipulative pigasaurus rex asshole (and for your sake, I hope he isn't my ex-husband)!

Dump the piece of shit and get on with your life. If you still don't agree, re-read Ameliorist's and 4f...sake's blogs.
Better yet, watch the film Once Were Warriors, and get out while you still can.

Right on, Ameliorist---I can relate. I left an abusive relationship from hell, too.

Have courage, HDTH. I hope everything works out for the better for you.

Posted by livedtotell.... on May 10, 2009 at 5:11 AM · Report
118
“the ones who can't stand him” does it occur to her that perhaps they can’t stand him because they see him mentally, emotionally, (and soon to be if not already) physically abusing someone they care about?
Perhaps “he is a shit” is not an opinion but a clear assessment.
My family and friends told me that my first wife was all wrong for me, but did I listen? Noooooo. I almost got married a second time to a woman who would have been all wrong in a different set of ways but then I realized that perhaps I should listen to all those people who know me well and love me. Now I view that almost second marriage as a bullet that I dodged.
Posted by Call Me Timmmm on May 10, 2009 at 7:36 AM · Report
savagebart 119
I think your advice to SMS shows just how smart you are and how good you are at what you do. It's spot on!

I'm a big fan of you, your column, your podcasts, and your videos...!
Posted by savagebart on May 10, 2009 at 12:59 PM · Report
120
Great advice for SMS, Dan. Hopefully I'll do the same if my future child turns out to be like me and enjoying my own gender.
Posted by NL on May 11, 2009 at 5:59 AM · Report
121
@54
There is nothing worse than someone blaming a victim. Than saying that they "brought it on themselves." I had a man throw me around his house for nearly an hour once. You know how he said it started? He said it was my fault because I threw a crystal bowl in the bathroom on the floor and broke it. You know how that bowl broke? He pushed me into it and it shattered. It did not start because I was breaking things, it started because he was on an abusive power trip.

I had a friend that did not take what happened to me seriously. She thought that by being a strong headed woman who stood up for myself I was 'asking for it.' She is no longer my friend. You can be a fucking righteous bitch, there is no excuse for a man twice your size to be abusive. Do you know what it feels like to have someone that strong holding you down? To use every muscle in your body to try getting up, to try fighting back? And being completely and utterly incapable. TO be helpless like that? Do you know how it feels? It is horrifying. Do you know what it's like to look at someone that you thought you loved and to ask them and yourself "what is he doing to me? why is he doing this?" I shouted at him "How can you do this? You say that you love me?" And he laughed at me, like I was pathetic. And I never went back to him.

It is only an abuser that justifies being abusive to anyone for any reason. Period. End of sentence. She's trying to see how angry she can get you? So what? Your only choice is be an abusive fuckwitt? Walking away is not an option?

Reality check time, maybe you need some help.
Posted by Take it all in on May 11, 2009 at 10:15 AM · Report
122
Hilarious that YAYCBS's insult appears in the same column as two letters & responses that will surely become two of my favorites. Whether the insult appeared with these fine posts was a fluke or intentional, kudos to Dan Savage for showing the full spectrum of his inbox. YAYCBS, your computer and tv are obviously stuck on one site and one channel. Signed, YAYSADC (Yay, Savage and Discovery Channel!)
Posted by DayLit on May 11, 2009 at 12:49 PM · Report
123
Completely on-target with HDTH ... it's the classic "buildup-blowup-honeymoon" cycle going on. Honey, if you have to sneak out at 3 am with $2 in your purse and just the clothes on your back, DO IT!!! And if you have to go back and sleep in your old room at Mom & Dad's, DO IT!!!

Maybe he's not pounding on your face (YET!) but the toughest scars to heal are always on the inside anyway, and you've already got more than you realize. God bless, sweetie - it may be the hardest thing you've ever had to do, but you are ABSOLUTELY worth it!!
Posted by samporter on May 11, 2009 at 8:20 PM · Report
124
I was really hoping HDTH would have left a response saying "I got out and I'm safe now". I still hope she does.
Posted by Suki on May 11, 2009 at 10:30 PM · Report
125
Oh HDTH, please please! listen to Dan. I fell in love with a guy I thought was a good friend, afterall I had known him for 11 years--that should make him safe, right? When we got together, I had my own place, shared custody of my 12 year old daughter, a car, 3 horses (I was a prof. horse trainer at the time), my own business, etc. VERY VERY long story short, 3.5 years later, I was suicidal, had lost my business, my car, my apartment, my horses and most importantly of all--my daughter, who I was convinced, by him, was better off with her dad, because he was jealous of the attention I gave her. He was very well off, we lived in a very economically depressed state, it ranks dead last out of all 50 states in wages. With his income, he promised to "take care of me." What a loaded gun that was. He should have just asked if he could buy me. My daughter was competition, as were my friends, my business, my horses and my family. One by one I gave up my posessions, passions, everything that took time away from him, until finally he convinced me my girl would be better off with her dad. One minute I was the most wonderful thing that had ever happened to him, the next I was a bloodsucking parasite. I never once in all that time asked him for a penny, even though he forced me to quit working to be available for him and offered to pay all my bills and then renegged. The lowest point was when he told me "you would have done everyone you have ever met a favor is you had just put a bullet in your head before your kid was born and saved her and everyone else the trouble of ever having met you." His apology? An $800 Coach bag. And some Prada sunglasses. I started to plant seeds with him to move to another city that had a better economy after almost 3 years of this shit because after having all of my resources stripped from me systematically I knew I couldn't make it on my own in our home town anymore. My daughter was safe and well with her father and step mom, so we moved, and I immediately started planning my escape. After a few months with some decent paychecks, I waited for him to go out of town for a couple months on business and I made a break for it. My parents were on the east coast at the time so I called them to see if they could find me work out there. My mother and stepdad hated this man SOOO MUCH, I had a job interview in NYC within 3 hours!! 10 months later I am free, living alone in NY with a great job, some great new friends, and am finally starting to feel "whole" again. My little girl is still in my home state, and we talk regularly and she is doing fine. I can't tell you how much damage this man did to me emotionally and psychologically. Some will read this and say "you could have left" and they are right; but it took 3 and a half years because I had no money and no where to go and no way to get there. I played my escape from this guy like a season of Survivor: outwit outlast outplay. HDTH, I hope it doesn't take this much for you. This is the NUTSHELL VERSION of my story, it gets deeper and scarier than this but I think you get the point. The highs are never worth the lows when he breaks your shit, he's just warming up before he breaks your face, its a matter of time. Get the fuck out now. It won't get better. Your friends, family and EVERY LAST PERSON WHO HAS POSTED HERE CAN'T ALL BE WRONG!!!!!! We don't know your guy, therefore we can't hate him, but if what your are saying is true, run like hell and don't ever look back!

With love and best of luck to you sweetheart, you can do this!!
More...
Posted by happy in nyc on May 12, 2009 at 8:36 PM · Report
126
Treating your young gay son like a daughter is great advice! I've never heard it put that way, but it is definitely true and I hope the dad takes your advice.
Posted by Will on May 14, 2009 at 10:54 PM · Report
127
Just want to echo your advice to HDTH, which is spot on. I was in a similar situation once, and excused the nasty behavior by focusing on the good, but I ultimately realized that it didn't balance out that way at all.

Also, one thing I'd like to add: of course the friends who tell HDTH to dump the abuser hate him. That doesn't mean they're problematically biased, it just means that they see what he is doing to their friend and evaluate it rationally, which is hard for her to do because she's in his thrall.

Good luck, HDTH.
Posted by Joanna on May 18, 2009 at 4:15 PM · Report
128
Wow; Dan, I'd been reading your clumn for years in READER mags in different cities, just started reading this site a year ago. The situations and the advice you give; very rational. I love reading comments, espcially on the issues here! The Dad (or Mom)is great for looking out for their kid. I have 4 girls under 10, and hope i'll be open minded (and overbearing, cautious) when I get to that stage, whether they are gay or straight..they'll still be our daughters. We also raise them now so they'll have self worth, etc, because I know there's scumbags love to control,too. What really made me think was comments #121 and 125; I never saw it like that, wow. Scary stuff for real. My friends/parents didn't like my first wife either, didn't listen, more of a mentally abusive relationship, but that only lasted 2 years, before I left her. Yes, there's light at the end of that tunnel, and like #23, if you got to go..get the hell out!! I've happliy remarried-9 years with the girls, but even if I wasn't..the Bible says "it's better to eat crumbs in the attic than eat a big dinner with a (fill in the blank)significant other," or something like that. Don't be a Hale Berry, one bad relationship to the next, please! God Bless you...
Posted by GemFreeLuv69 on May 19, 2009 at 10:35 AM · Report
129
One more thing; what's helped me get over bad relationships (bisexual, straight, whatever) has been to listen to Sades' album, "Promise." It's like her 2nd or 3rd album, but OMGosh, the whole album runs the gumut of feelings, (denial guilt, etc), and it's better than throwing yourself out of a window (which I know nothing about).

Once again, the album "Promise" by Sade (all tracks)

Then, counseling (free, if you can find it)

Maybe stay with (caring, non-toxic) friends/family
so you can lick your wounds, and reflect

I wish the best for you; God bless...!
Posted by GemFreeLuv69 on May 19, 2009 at 10:57 AM · Report
130
@47 - while her partner MAY be suffering from borderline personality disorder (though I'd lay my cards on narcisstic or antisocial), that doesn't mean she shouldn't get the hell out of that relationship. Axis II diagnoses are DIFFICULT to treat (some say impossible) and it may be years before he makes any progress - meanwhile, right NOW, he is showing the classic signs of a DV perpetrator revving up to start laying his hands on more than just her things.
Posted by missktkat on May 19, 2009 at 8:59 PM · Report
Dirk Rock 131
I'd let a centaur fuck me*, and I'm a straight guy. Then I'd have him fuck my wife.
I love what this column's done for me, for everyone. Gives us a place to admit shit like this.
(* would have to have some fur up his back and chest so I could pet him. Seriously. I'd want to nuzzle him like a horse.)
Question. if he came to dinner, this hot centaur, would he shit my dining room? You know how horses love to crap any time, any place.
Posted by Dirk Rock http://www.lovebugfans.com on May 25, 2009 at 2:01 PM · Report

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