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Shock and Ew

June 11, 2009

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I am a 28-year-old straight woman who has been dating a 24-year-old straight male for two months. Recently, I gave him oral sex while he was seated naked on my couch. The next day, as I went to sit on the couch, I noticed a brown stain on the cushion that looked highly suspicious. I have come to the conclusion that it was, in fact, poo. The stain had a streakish quality and was located where his buttcrack region was placed during the encounter. And furthermore, I smelled it. And I know what shit smells like!

Okay, so the question: WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?! Is this normal for men? Can I talk to him about this? Should I? I would like to be open and honest with him, but how do I even broach the subject?

I suspect that he knows that shit stains are an issue for him, because we were recently packing for a weekend trip and he got upset when I went to fold/pack his underwear. He wouldn't let me handle the undies because he didn't want me to "see any stains." I didn't think anything of it, assuming that he left occasional skid marks as some guys do, and I just made a joke about my period panties and moved on. But now I am annoyed. He should have realized what had happened when I blew him and at least tried to clean it up while I was sleeping or otherwise occupied.

Is pooping on the couch a deal breaker? Or can we be "cleaner" in the future and protect my bedding and furniture somehow?

Shit On Furniture Annoys Girl A Lot

Seeing as he's aware that he has a problem—he acknowledged as much when he kept his underwear out of your hands—this straight boy, at the very least, should've thought to spot-check your sofa after grinding his ass into it for the duration of that blowjob. But you have to take some responsibility, too, SOFAGAL. You encouraged this young man to plop his naked ass down on your sofa and proceeded to engage in the kinds of behaviors that would cause any man to (1) open his legs and (2) grind his ass into whatever he happened to be sitting on. And where bare asses are set, shit stains are always a possibility.

So I'd say you're both at fault, SOFAGAL. Knowing what he knows about his own ass, the boy should've eyeballed your sofa and discreetly cleaned up after himself. But, again, shit stains can happen when you allow a nude man to sit his bare ass on your sofa, SOFAGAL, and commence blowing him. If I may invoke/resurrect a Rumsfeldism: Prior to this incident, blowjob-related shit stains on the sofa were, for you, an unknown unknown—something you didn't know you didn't know—but in the wake of this incident, shit stains are now a known known. And knowing what you now know, SOFAGAL, you might consider placing a towel—might I suggest a beige one?—on any sofa that you invite this man, or any other man, to set his bare bottom on prior to blowing him.

Finally, SOFAGAL, how to broach the subject? With a sense of humor. Sex can be messy, and shit happens quite literally sometimes—and not just to men. Let him know that he tagged your sofa—try to smile when you say it—and then head to the nearest gay neighborhood to pick up some brown or beige bath towels. And come on, how bad can it really have been if you didn't notice when your nose was down there?


My wife and I got into S&M about two years ago, and it's done a wonderful job of spicing up an otherwise very vanilla marriage. It was the odd happy ending to the usual doomed story of "husband who knows he's submissive finally gets courage to tell vanilla wife." We're constantly upping our game—we went from pegging and D/s to flogging to hardcore beatings pretty swiftly, and we want to continue to push our boundaries.

Now we're looking into electrical play. Our question is about cattle prods. Are they safe? We've seen a couple of BDSM porn movies where a cattle prod gets used, but we have no idea if these are prop cattle prods or the real deal. And are there any books out there on safe electro-stim play?

Sub Needs Some Shocks

"Electric play is a great addition to BDSM, but cattle prods are a bad choice as they're not designed for use on humans," says David X, an electrical engineer who used to work in tech but today designs e-stim products for Eros Tek. "There are several reports of muscle injuries and even a few broken bones from prod-induced involuntary muscle contractions," David continues. "Burns and nerve damage are also possible. There really isn't any way to make a cattle prod safe, but if you must, use it only below the waist and make each shock as brief as possible. Make sure the submissive does not have weight or tension on their limbs and has room for safe movement."

And if you're attached to your balls, SNSS, and would like to remain attached to them, make sure they're not tied to anything. But, again, neither David nor I think you should use a cattle prod at all. David has a bias, of course, and would prefer to see you purchase something designed for use on humans—preferably something designed by him—but your bias-free advice professional strongly agrees with David: Invest in a product designed for use on humans.

"The best devices for BDSM electric play are made for that purpose," says David. "They can deliver very intense sensations while being much safer than a cattle prod. As for books, you're best off following the instructions that come with whatever device you purchase. This is another advantage of the BDSM products—they come with instructions for using them on humans instead of cattle."

I'm a 23-year-old straight female. I have been friends with this guy for the past two and a half years and would like to continue. Problem is he gets jealous (because he has the hots for me, but I'm not interested) and a bit distant whenever there is a boyfriend/date in the picture. I'm not sure if I should approach him about this or not.

Just Friends Jealousy

Maintaining a friendship with a man who has the "hots" for you when you're not interested isn't kind, JFJ, it's emotionally sadistic. Maybe it's thoughtless sadism on your part, but it's sadism nonetheless. Because for as long as you're hanging out with him, JFJ, he's going to delude himself into thinking that he has a chance with you. And every time a potential boyfriend appears on the horizon—someone for whom you do have the hots—he's going to realize, once again, that he's a fool and, perhaps, being played for one. (How many times has he helped you move?)

Your friendship, while a marvelous treasure under most circumstances, is not a consolation prize for this guy. It's a torment. He doesn't have the strength to cut you out of his life—something that, if he's reading, I would strongly advise him to do—so you're going to have to do it for him, JFJ. If you don't, well, you can't claim that your sadism is thoughtless anymore. It's overt, conscious cruelty—"mean girl" bullshit. And if you're not careful, Garfunkel & Oates will write a song about you. recommended


mail@savagelove.net

 

Comments (223) RSS

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1
So you can't ever be friends with someone who's ever had the hots for you? It's always sadism? Doesn't seem fair to me. If you're both open about the attraction & address the fact that it's never going to be an option, but the guy thinks the friendship is still worth it, why not?

That's basically saying that straight men and women can never be friends if a tension ever exists that's not acted upon. I've got great male friends who were once attracted me and nobody is stringing anybody along. They think I'm worth it to have in their lives even knowing that they'll never date me. I don't see the problem if JFJ's guy can handle it.
Posted by Girl with guy friends on June 9, 2009 at 7:17 PM · Report this
2
I disagree with the first one - on account that SOFAGAL's boyfriend might be refusing to clean his shit because he's negating to himself that it even happened because he's so embarrassed. If he's negating, he's, for all practical purpose, ignorant of his problem.

This is a useful distinction, because if SOFAGAL is freaking out for a tiny stain on her sofa to the point that she might dump the poor slob already, she sure isn't going to be nice about it.

SOFAGAL: if your boyfriend is too freaked out to tell you or even himself, maybe it would be a nice thing to realize that the crap on your sofa isn't such a big deal. Anything else is likely to pull more crap out of him - metaphorically and literally.
Posted by mokawi on June 9, 2009 at 7:20 PM · Report this
3 Comment Pulled (OffTopic) Comment Policy
4
I'm not sure I agree entirely with your advice to JFJ... There are situations where you can't just stop being friends with some one: One example would be when you have a group of mutual friends, and it would be unfair if one of you had to stop seeing them because of your "break up". Plus, the affection that comes with a friendship is not worthless. The fault and responsibility is not with JFJ, but with the guy who has the "hots" for her. He has to make the first move and stop being around her, or stop being an asshole and guilt tripping his friend. Dan, your response labels JFJ as a "tease" off the bat. You don't stop to think that her "friend" might be a manipulative jerk who uses guilt as leverage to eventually get in her pants.

Posted by useless_guilt on June 9, 2009 at 7:45 PM · Report this
5
SOFAGIRL: Be upfront and honest with your boyfriend. Withholding thoughts and feelings doesn't create a stronger relationship.

SNSS: ouchies!

JFJ: Again, be upfront and honest. If not, then relationship karma will bite you in the ass.
Posted by east coaster on June 9, 2009 at 7:46 PM · Report this
6
Is there a way JFJ can keep the door open for a friendship later down the road? Or is it best to just cut all ties?
Posted by Surprisingly Helpful on June 9, 2009 at 7:53 PM · Report this
7
I'm surprised to see you had nothing to say in this week's column about the recent accidental death of actor David Carradine. You usually take these opportunities to reinforce the importance of safe BDSM play.

After talking to some of my co-workers, they seemed to joke about how strange this freak death is. After reading your column for several years, I couldn't help but argue how common these deaths really are and how they're only brought to light when public figures are at the tragic end.

Is it time to reiterate BDSM safety procedures?

P.S. My husband wants to establish the fact that he’s never had any shit stains on his draws… what’s with the male stereotype of streaks?
Posted by drunc in publik on June 9, 2009 at 7:58 PM · Report this
8
sigh. so i've been JFJ about a million times. i'm a cute girl who likes board sports and pot, it sort of happens. am i a mean girl and emotional sadist and overtly cruel to every guy that i like being friends with even though i know that i know he is hiding a crush on me? do i have to cut off every friendship as soon as i start to suspect there might possibly be an underlayer of harry-met-sally-ness?

I'm always completely honest with my feelings, but if he wants to keep hanging out and just ignore it am i automatically the bitch? Isn't it kind of up to the guy at some point? Am i supposed to just cut off friendships? At age 23 doesn't everyone sort of have secret hots for everyone?

Dan...? Thoughts?
Posted by Jo on June 9, 2009 at 8:04 PM · Report this
9
danielle@3: who the fuck cares if you're first. and your not. and that's all you had to say? please go away forever.

and jfj, you love the attention. admit it. garfunkel and oates are working on that song as we speak, and if they aren't, dan needs to make sure of it.
Posted by ellarosa on June 9, 2009 at 8:11 PM · Report this
10
@mokawi: shit is a big deal to some (most?) people. when poopoo is found on a couch then remembered in some undies it leads to thoughts, probably accurate, of poopoo on toilet seats, blankets, comforters, carpet, etc. shitty sheets! who wants them? definately not females who can end up with urinary tract infections from doodoo germs. these same germs can also cause stomache problems, & pink eye according to the movie Knocked Up. not good. & stinky too.

it's my opinion that people need to take care of their asses. i know that some dudes & ladies have hairier butts. try using baby wipes/feminine hygene wipes!

post script- i have an ex-boyfriend who was not a good wiper. it's disgusting & difficult to approach the subject. that's why everyone needs to just clean up!
Posted by cleanbuns mcgee on June 9, 2009 at 8:27 PM · Report this
11
SOFAGIRL: He could be blissfully unaware.. Ive never thought that I have done that before, but hey maybe I have? Also if hes a fury guy theres gonna be more of a chance for that kind of thing.. get him to trim it up a little.. nothing crazy, just get the clippers and shorten it up. You'll both be happier!

SNSS: Pics or it didn't happen.

JFJ: Just be completely honest. You like him as a buddy and don't want anything more. If he still sticks around, maybe your not the sadist, he's the masochist.
Posted by BJNK on June 9, 2009 at 8:34 PM · Report this
12
okay, i'm going to have to disagree with the advice to SOFAGAL here. while i agree that sex can be messy - and that you should be prepared for a potential poo-encounter during certain activities - giving a guy a blowjob while he's sitting on your couch is NOT one of them. i'm sorry, but poo should stay in your buttHOLE. if contact with your inner cheek/outer crack area is smearing a noticeable amount of poo into the couch, then YOUR BUTT IS DIRTY. my SO and i have both have our bare asses ground against many a thing in this apartment, and none of them have shit-smears. that is gross, and i would be appalled by the fact that someone who knew they had a problem like that wouldn't do a courtesy-check post-bj. let's not blame the victim, dan!
Posted by lisa t. on June 9, 2009 at 8:50 PM · Report this
13
The question with regards to JFJ is WHY she doesn't have the hots for him. Is it because he's just plain not attractive, or because she doesn't find certain aspects of his personality appealing for her?

If it's the former, then leading him on is a right bitch move, and the only way out is a breakup. But if it's the latter, there are a couple other endings, which I offer as a former "friend who had the hots for girls who didn't have the hots for him" guy.

One is the status quo is maintained until JFJ grows out of her desire to date jerks and jumps into bed with the guy who has offering the healthy relationship for 2.5 years. Alcohol can take the edge off the initial hookup.

Another is that the friend gets frustrated on his own, starts treating JFJ less well, and triggers her romantic desire as a result. As I got older I realized this was much faster than waiting for the girl to grow up. And a lot easier, once you accept your inner asshole.

Another is JFJ just tells the guy straight up she isn't romantically interested, but makes a sincere effort to hook her friend up with her female friends. It should be easier to be friends when the guy has someone else to focus his hots on.

But all of those only work if the guy isn't just plain generally unattractive but willing to help JFJ move.
Posted by biggie on June 9, 2009 at 8:55 PM · Report this
emote_control 14
@ellarosa: G&O may or may not be working on that song, but The Onion is covering it.

http://digg.com/d1tMN6
Posted by emote_control on June 9, 2009 at 9:02 PM · Report this
15
About SOFAGAL: some guys have a kind of perverse blindness about their shitty assholes. I had a friend who claimed as an excuse that ALL men had lots of skidmarks in their underwear--though the real problem was that he was too fat and lazy or prissy to clean up. This slob even has skidmarks on his sheets nowadays. Likewise I dated a guy who had a phobia about touching his own asshole, so he would barely clean it and would pretend like nothing was going on...this made it difficult when I wanted to have fun with his (otherwise) beautiful butt.

One way for SOFAGAL to deal with this is to insist that her guy shower before they do it--but even then, she has to say he needs to scrub every inch, "even your butt." WITH SOME GUYS THEY ARE SO STUPID OR LAZY OR IN DENIAL YOU HAVE TO TELL THEM TO CLEAN THEIR BUTTS. This is not a gay/straight issue. It is a male issue. I am gay and the two guys I have mentioned are gay.
Posted by no more dirty butts on June 9, 2009 at 9:27 PM · Report this
16
I agree 100% w/ the advice to JLJ. He's wasting his energy, waiting around for something that's never going to happen, and she's enjoying every minute of it. I note her lack of empathy. Sure, she *understands* why he'd be jealous, but she doesn't feel the emotional angst of unrequited love. It fucking hurts, and JLJ would be doing the guy a kindness & call it off.

And guys, don't ever fall into the JLJ trap. It's a sucker bet, every time. You can only lose.
Posted by it's only castles burning on June 9, 2009 at 9:28 PM · Report this
17
I agree with the majority here, that skid-marks are supposed to be a rarity, not standard operating procedure. Doesn't poopy-butt boyfriend get itchy and infected with that sloppy cleanup? I sure do. If I don't have a baby-wipe, a wet paper towel will work. If I can't find that, I hold it for as many hours as needed. That may seem uptight, but I don't have poop on my underwear! And this boyfriend's underwear has PERMANENT stains from it? Does he not know how to do laundry? Also: I have a very "fuzzy" boyfriend, and he never has skid marks either.
Posted by ratty rat on June 9, 2009 at 9:30 PM · Report this
18
babywipes and tucks are good for cleaning a butt well. Maybe SOFAGAL should invest in some for her bathroom. (and yes, tell the guy, with humor.)
Posted by Puzzlegal on June 9, 2009 at 9:47 PM · Report this
19
@biggie: Wow, projecting much? Who says JFJ is dating "jerks"? Who says she owes it to this guy to pimp out her other friends to him? And alcohol will take the edge off that first hookup? That plus finding "your inner asshole" sounds like a fabulous cquaintance-rape setup to me!

If it's been made clear to all parties that there won't be any romantic entanglement, honesty is all anyone owes to anybody. Girls don't go for "jerks"; they go for guys (and girls) with enough confidence and self-respect to pursue relationships when it's appropriate and welcomed and not hang around for "2.5 years" hoping to guilt-trip their way into bed with a girl by moving enough boxes.
Posted by Sophia on June 9, 2009 at 10:10 PM · Report this
FerretRunner64 20
Re SOFAGAL, I feel your pain (and your gross-out). But as a lifelong nudist who has lived in various nudist communities, I can report that the Number 1 rule in every nude household is, Use A Towel Use A Towel Use A Towel. We buy nice bath sheet sized ones (preferably matching, and dark is a good thing but not black -- that can be just as bad) and throw one down anytime someone might be coming over to visit, whether it is a sexual occasion or not. Put a second one down next to him for yourself before you start making out and he won't feel shamed. Good advice by Dan, but I disagree that she should mention it.
Posted by FerretRunner64 on June 9, 2009 at 10:29 PM · Report this
21
Dan, you are wrong about JFJ. Completely, embarrassingly, sadly, wrong.

Either the guy has sacked up and asked her out or he hasn't. If he has, and she has said no, then he's a grown up and should do whatever he needs to to deal with it. Leave, stay, whatever - it's his problem and not hers.

If he hasn't? Too damn bad. The guy can't even get together the courage to ask her out, but is brave enough to act like a brat whenever she's dating someone else.

This situation is his fault entirely. He loves her, he hangs around with her even though there isn't a chance of them getting together, he throws a shitfit when she goes out with another guy.

And the 'helped you move,' bit. Seriously? You, Dan, are hiring some *fucked up* moving companies if you think helping a girl move means she should put out.

The only thing JFJ has been doing is living her life, with a friend who has decided to sulk every time it becomes clear that she's not going to jump into bed with him.

I think she probably should, in fact, leave the whining loser. But lets place the blame where it belongs.
Posted by lilin on June 9, 2009 at 11:24 PM · Report this
22
Dan, you are wrong in your attitude toward JFJ. Completely, embarrassingly, sadly, wrong.

Either the guy has sacked up and asked her out or he hasn't. If he has, and she has said no, then he's a grown up and should do whatever he needs to to deal with it. Leave, stay, whatever - it's his problem and not hers.

If he hasn't? Too damn bad. The guy can't even get together the courage to ask her out, but manages to be brave enough to act like a brat whenever she's dating someone else. What a prize.

This situation is his fault entirely. *He* loves her, *he* hangs around with her even though there isn't a chance of them getting together, *he* throws a shitfit when she goes out with another guy.

And the 'helped you move,' bit. Seriously? You, Dan, are hiring some *messed up* moving companies if you think helping a girl move means she should put out.

The only thing JFJ has been doing is living her life, with a friend who has decided to sulk every time it becomes clear that she's not going to jump into bed with him.

I think she probably should, in fact, leave the whining loser. But lets place the blame where it belongs.
Posted by lilin on June 9, 2009 at 11:42 PM · Report this
23
I don't ever get skid marks on my underwear... but maybe that's because I actually wipe my ass. SOFAGAL should confront her boyfriend about this immediately, and when he plays innocent (and he will) she should dump his ass. I know it seems harsh, but people who aren't potty-trained are too immature to have sex anyway.
Posted by Brandon J. on June 10, 2009 at 12:25 AM · Report this
24
@lilin
Dan is not suggesting that girls should put out when they get help moving (or whatever). He is suggesting that girls who take advantage of guys who help them move because they want to get in their pants (as opposed to guys who help them move because they've been offered beer & pizza) are douchetrucks.

I think it is possible to maintain a friendship despite a one-way attraction, but it distinctly sounds like that's not JFJ's situation. Dan's advice seems good. I think he is trying to encourage taking responsibility for the relationship, not blaming anyone.
Posted by salamander on June 10, 2009 at 12:27 AM · Report this
25
I have to agree with Dan on JFJ.

When a girl is rejected (sexually, romantically) by a guy, she can conceive of still being friends with him.
So, she thinks, "obviously if I turn down a guy, he knows we are only friends..."
I'm afraid he may know that in his head, but his heart and his dick are going to keep guiding his actions. Dan's comments about him helping her move, or other social favors, is probably dead on the money. He still feels that because they know each other, there is a chance she'll come around to him.
At the same time, this blinds him to potential relationships with women who are actually interested in having a romantic relationship with him.

It would be much kinder to him to break the chain completely rather than the half-assed "we can be great friends! but I'm never having sex with you..."

There is a reason 'nice guy' and 'friend zone' are recognized cultural terms.
Posted by woodbun on June 10, 2009 at 12:39 AM · Report this
26
Previewing Your Comment
Re: Savage Love
@salamander

I don't recall the girl saying she asked that guy for any favors whatsoever. I recall Dan assuming that she *must* be taking advantage of the poor, poor guy. That's a shitty attitude, and jfj doesn't deserve it.

As for who is the douchetruck, I've helped friends move. I have helped a guy friend move. I spent an entire day assembling ikea furniture and getting a mattress up a set of stairs, and no one was hurt or taken advantage of. Why?

1. I'm a big girl and can say 'no.'
2. I assumed that the last box I opened would have a pizza in it and not his dick wrapped in ribbons.

The guy (or girl) who hangs around you as a friend and then gets bitchy because they don't jump to significant other status after x amount of favors is the douchetruck.
Posted by lilin on June 10, 2009 at 12:57 AM · Report this
27
The advice to JFJ was... Well, to be a bit blunt, on the ridiculous side. I've told plenty of friends that I have crushes on them. They tell me they're not interested. I keep being friends with them, and I'm happy for them when they do find someone who's right for them. I can list at least six examples of this in my life.

I'm a woman, so perhaps you'll say that makes a difference. But it's possible to move on without breaking a connection. Seriously, why would you blame her? She rejected him; it's up to him to stay or go. She's not necessarily toting with him. It's not her fault that her friend is attracted to her and is a bit of a jealous jerk at times. He needs to learn to cope.

I'm disappointed that, out of the hundreds (thousands?) of emails you get, you singled her out for an undeserved lecture. Don't quote the dictionary about advice, please; I understand that it was you she asked. But I disagree with your advice.

To JFJ: I think that you should talk to him if it's really getting to be a problem. That's about all the advice I can give, aside from saying I don't think you deserved what Dan said. Sadistic? Tch. Not what I'd call sadism. Good luck to you.
Posted by PansexualPolyGenderlessChristianishSwitch on June 10, 2009 at 1:03 AM · Report this
28
Right on about JFJ. I see what others are saying (everybody has crushes and they guy should grow a pair), but it doesn't sound like the guy just has a crush. It sounds like he has a serious thing for her, and she knows it. Whether or not he's a little bitch doesn't enter into it, not if she's really a friend. If she's really a friend, she'll consider what's in his best interest and do for him what he can't realize he needs to do for himself. Yeah, things will be tough if they have a lot of mutual friends or if they work together, but you don't have to be friends with everyone your friends know or everyone you work with. (If his presence is that unavoidable, downgrade to acquaintanceship.) Though, since JFJ herself acknowledged that ending the friendship was a possibility (and didn't suggest why it might be hard), then I suspect it's doable.
Posted by Park on June 10, 2009 at 1:24 AM · Report this
29
To be fair, girls and guys at that age get into those situations all the time.

Yes, she's a tad evil, yes he's mainly spineless and yes both parties have their share of issues.

If they were both so self aware neither would be in this predicament – but again at that age…

So waddaya gonnado? Ok, she could do some noble thing like explain why they can't be friends anymore – kinda dopey imho. Ideally he should grow a pair and either shit or get off the pot (sorry sofagal).

But who among us has never been on either or both sides of unrequited love? I mean its one of the many things that people go through and isn't likely to change any time soon given the number of songs, poems and books written about it.

I don't think you gave her bad advice, but rather advice that she won't act on and ultimately won't need to. Eventually fate will decide for them and things will evolve/change – someone moves for a job, moves in with a lover, etc….

C'est la vie bay bay!

Gros bisous from France!
Posted by Fred34 on June 10, 2009 at 3:28 AM · Report this
XiaoGui17 30
SOFAGAL should be tougher on her skidmark bf. I once had a bf who didn't wipe his ass properly and it was unpleasant. He didn't have a hairy ass, he just had bad hygiene. Same guy had a smegma problem, a bad breath problem, a B.O. problem, a greasy hair problem, etc. I've had plenty of shit-free ass-grinding from every man (including a seriously furry-assed satyrs) with the exception of Mr. Sopa-o-phobia. It sounds like SOFAGAL's guy may just have hygiene issues. In which case, DTMFA or edumucate him on proper wiping.

As for JFJ, I don't think she's necessarily being a sadist; that was really harsh. Girls often really are naive enough to think that they can "just be friends" with unrequited lovesick men. Her friend should have gotten over himself, and it's well-advised to cut him out of the picture, but it's not fair from what was said to act as though she was knowingly taking advantage of him.

Not to mention, Dan, us ladies are all too used to being crushed on by every straight male coworker, classmate, acquaintance, and friend we have. This is precisely why we don't write off a friendship the second a guy shows signs of romantic or sexual interest. We'd have to wear burkas and be homemakers to avoid making male friends who might end up being attracted to us.
Posted by XiaoGui17 on June 10, 2009 at 4:01 AM · Report this
31
My general standard on the JFJ situation: if he's not going to end up in a real relationship with you, don't let him do jack for you. Don't let him help you move, don't let him pay for meals or drinks, and so forth. Once those conditions are well-known for a while, then make it clear you aren't going to sleep with him.

There are 2 reasons for this: (1) this will help JFJ sort out whether she likes him as a friend or likes him as an unpaid helping lapdog. (2) this will make this guy feel a bit less used when she tells him he doesn't stand a chance.
Posted by Thexalon on June 10, 2009 at 4:12 AM · Report this
32
All these people complaining about the advice to JFJ are missing the point. The deal is that this has been going on for a looooong time, almost three years, and he's unable to pack his baggage up and move on. She's known how he feels, she plainly sees that it's affecting the "friendship" (he's jealous and distant whenever she gets a new bf). What he's doing is kind of shitty too, since he's using the friendship as blackmail to try and get her to break up or spend less time with her boyfriends, but he isn't the one writing the letter. She needs to, if not stop hanging out with him altogether, at the very least do it much, much less often. That way, even if he doesn't get the picture he still won't be able to cause problems.
Posted by Vilker on June 10, 2009 at 4:49 AM · Report this
33
Um, could you refrain from using alcohol to "take the edge off the initial hookup", biggie? Cause I don't know your situation and don't mean to come down on you personally, but I've had two good female friends in the last year crying in my arms because male "friends," people they thought they could trust, took advantage of them when they were drunk and emotionally vulnerable. Afterward these women had nightmares about the incidents, felt violated, ashamed, and utterly betrayed, but were afraid to speak up because they were afraid people would side with the men. The men, meanwhile, proceeded to stomp around like spoiled toddlers who'd been denied a sweetie because the women didn't fall instantly into their arms as they felt they were entitled to. Oddly, they didn't seem very interested in how the women felt about what would happen, which I found very strange as I personally tend to actually, yanno, care when I hurt people I'm friends with, much less claim to love. Here's a few rules of thumb.
,
1) If a woman you know won't sleep with you sober, there's a good chance she's not going to be okay with having slept with you drunk. If you do it anyway, you're not a good guy. You're an asshole who takes advantage of women.

2) If it pisses you off when your female friends date guys you label predators instead of you, maybe you should consider your own behavior. If you're sniffing around a woman, acting like you actually care about her while you just want in her pants, trying to use guilt and moments of weakness to eventually trick your way into her bed, that makes you just as bad as any of those predators. It makes you a scavenger; i.e. a predator with less confidence and inferior dress sense.
Posted by Beguine on June 10, 2009 at 5:50 AM · Report this
34
I knew you'd get flak for your response to JFJ, but you are right on the money.
Posted by MichelleZB on June 10, 2009 at 7:05 AM · Report this
35
Enough with the poop. I wanna know what "D/s" are. Someone please explain. Thank you.
Posted by rcd on June 10, 2009 at 7:07 AM · Report this
36
I agree--the advice to JFJ was way too harsh, and assumed that her guy friend should take none of the responsibility.

I was just friends with a guy who had a thing for me for twelve years. I turned him down--more than once--when he asked me out. He was clear. I was clear. Eventually he married someone else, and I was friends with both of them.

Then he and his wife divorced--a process, I must emphasize, that I did nothing to encourage. In fact, I suggested that they work out their issues. Once the dust had settled and the paperwork dealt with, my friend asked me out. Again. And to my surprise, I was able to view things in a different light. We had both grown up, and now we have been very happily married for nearly ten years, with a child we both adore. In this case, I think, the qualities that made for a good friendship have also made for a good marriage. We know, like, and trust one another.

I should also emphasize, though, that both of us were honest, that I did my best not to torture him, and that he did not in any way guilt trip me. JFJ might never want to date her male friend, but if there's any chance, I'd suggest that she view this situation as an example of how they both deal with difficult situations. Do you like what you see? Should he like what he sees?
Posted by MN on June 10, 2009 at 7:16 AM · Report this
37
For the girl with guy friend: http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/…
Posted by punkn on June 10, 2009 at 7:24 AM · Report this
Buck Mulligan 38
Just want to agree with something Brandon J. said above: shit stains on a guy's underwear, or anything else that comes into contact with his bare ass, are not "normal" or something that should be expected--they're a sign that the guy doesn't wipe his ass properly. And really, how fucking difficult is it to wipe your ass? Anybody walking around with a dirty ass is probably lazy and thoughtless in a million other ways, as well.

So no, Dan: it's really not fair to tell SOFAGIRL that she's partially responsible for what happened to her couch. If they'd just had a messy pegging session it would be one thing--sex is often a messy business, as you say--but there's no reason that anybody should expect a blowjob to result in shit stains on the furniture.

Posted by Buck Mulligan on June 10, 2009 at 7:26 AM · Report this
39
...As a reasonably cute nerdy girl who gets along with nerdy, often lonely men best, I'd halve my already meager pool of friends if I dropped every guy I knew who I suspected had a thing for me.

(And no, my habit of befriending lonely nerdy boys is not out of some sort of self-centered sadism. I just naturally attract myself to people who like explaining the rules of Magic the Gathering to me and helping me make a D&D character.)
Posted by mp on June 10, 2009 at 7:54 AM · Report this
40
I'm a girl with a lot of guy friends. I'd say about 1/3 of my straight male friends are guys who have been interested in me at some point. Of those friends only one or two have any lingering interest after years of friendship, and both those guys date and are attracted to lots of other girls. including their other female friends. Similarly, another 1/3 of my male friends are people who I had crushes on at some point. Crushes usually only last a year or two. Friendships last dozens of years, long after the attraction is gone.

I don't think that all guys and girls can be just friends if the attraction isn't mutual. Some people just have a tendency to lead others on. Some people can't separate friendly chemistry and romantic chemistry in their mind. But my decade long friendships with guys who liked me for a year or two at the outset are proof that it doesn't always end poorly, with the guy feeling exploited and carrying an eternal torch.
Posted by Aria on June 10, 2009 at 8:03 AM · Report this
41
Biggie @ 15

Hounding a woman to sleep with you for 2.5 years and then sealing the deal with a booze-fueled hookup is your idea of offering a healthy relationship?

Treating her like crap is a good way to get her into your arms? I bet it was really hard for you to find your inner asshole, huh? You probably had to dig really deep to get into character. If treating your love interest like crap is your idea of romance, then you're the one who needs to grow up.

Finally: So then, what you are saying, is that after having you hang around for years pretending to be her friend, it's then her job to get you laid? She's supposed to make sure that your dick is tended to personally by one of her good friends?

Hey, how about this instead? Take a hint and get that the girl you are stalking does not want to have sex with you. She's just not that into you. Find a girl who likes you for you and then date her. Have sex with her. And then marry her, because you may never find another woman who is willing to look past your "inner asshole", which I largely suspect is no different than your "outer asshole".
Posted by lilangry on June 10, 2009 at 8:15 AM · Report this
42
To anyone who never has skid marks: You must never fart or ride a bicycle.
Posted by recook on June 10, 2009 at 8:29 AM · Report this
43
Agreed with most of the above commenters on JFJ - if girls couldn't be friends with guys who had crushes on them, girls would not have straight guy friends. Not to say that the girl should lead them on, but JFJ doesn't mention anything of the sort in her letter. And if guys have the unrequited love going for them, girls have the is-he-friends-with-me-because-he-likes-me-or-does-he-just-want-to-get-into-my-pants. Sucks on both sides.
Posted by ic on June 10, 2009 at 9:16 AM · Report this
44
I think Dan was really off base in his advice to SOFAGIRL. First of all, I've been having sex with men for 30 years, and NONE of them have ever left shit stains on anything. I wonder about the men Dan's known if leaving trails of shit is a norm in his world. It's a hygiene problem on SOFAGIRL'S boyfriend's part, not the standard for men. It's inappropriate, and sort of abusive to suggest that SOFAGIRL should have anticipated this problem or helped create it. A year and a half ago on the podcast, a man called who didn't want to give his girlfriend head. After making several excuses, he came up with, once, his girlfriend had a little bit of toilet paper stuck to her vulva. Dan agreed that was gross, and said that was totally inappropriate and she wasn't keeping up her personal hygiene. She was solely responsible. So I have to wonder why, according to Dan, it's okay for men to leave smears of shit everywhere (and their sex partners share responsibility for it) but it's unacceptable for a woman to, once, have some toilet paper stuck to a part of her anatomy that's hard to see.

I also take exception to his accusation that JFJ has been exploiting her jealous friend. Sure, it's possible, but nothing in her letter covers that. If she was a sadistic bitch who was using her friend to help her move multiple times, would she be worried enough about his feelings and the situation to write Dan? I think not. I think there's enough real things people say in their letters to get angry about or make fun of them for, without making things up.
Posted by ProsperitySnow on June 10, 2009 at 9:25 AM · Report this
Gin Gin Bon Bon 45
I noticed a few interesting omissions in the advice this week.

1- bums are designed not to leak poo! I don't think the rectum is even supposed to have much in it under normal circumstances (it's not like a bladder). Maybe there's something going on up thurr. Getting that shit checked out should be encouraged.

2- cattle prods are for shocking animals that are several times the size of humans and also in principle no one cares what damage is done to the cow as long as people will still pay money to eat it. Playing with a cattle prod sounds UNSAFE.

3- Yeah, the girl is the one who wrote in with the problem, but I wonder if Dan would have given the same advice to a dude (about a girl who liked him) in the same situation. It seems kind of obvious that they could have an honest conversation about it instead of her acting all sketchy and trying to cut him loose.
Posted by Gin Gin Bon Bon http://uneviedechien.wordpress.com on June 10, 2009 at 9:27 AM · Report this
kitschnsync 46
SOFAGAL, I wouldn't blame you if you broke up with the guy for not wiping properly. That's pretty fucking gross.

But if you are willing to turn the other cheek (heh), you could simply broach the subject with him. The topography of every asshole is different- some people might have ridges as complex as the Rockies, and some are as smooth as the plains. Maybe he just doesn't know how to deal with his buttscape.

Break it to him gently with a box of baby wipes.
Posted by kitschnsync on June 10, 2009 at 9:28 AM · Report this
Jaymz 47
Wow, tons of long comments - can't read this much shit about shit and being shitty. Back to SLOG.
Posted by Jaymz on June 10, 2009 at 9:37 AM · Report this
Julie in Eugene 48
Dan - I think you were 1 for 3 this week. I'm with everyone else who thinks that skid marks on a couch should not be a normal, expected occurrence. They mean he either A. Didn't wipe his ass properly or B. Shit himself while receiving a blow job. Both of these things are a problem, and neither of them are her fault.

Also, I think you were off base on your advice for JFJ... I'm with @42. I have had "the hots" for a number of my guy friends (sometimes for several years). I really enjoyed their friendship, and found that I wanted to keep them in my lives, even if it was non-romantically. And the reverse (guy friends crushing on me) has happened plenty of times as well. I am still friends with many of these guys 8-10 years later, and with me (and often them) being married. Hell, I'm willing to bet that almost everyone in their teens and early 20s has had this happen multiple times, on both sides of the fence.

It just seems silly to berate this girl for not breaking it off... If the guy can't deal with her in his life non-romantically, then HE should break it off. If he can deal, and enjoys the friendship, he shouldn't. Obviously, she should not do or say anything to get his hopes up, but as long as she's not doing that, I don't see what the problem with this situation is.
Posted by Julie in Eugene on June 10, 2009 at 9:37 AM · Report this
49
Since when is a shit stain the natural result of receiving a blow job?! Either this guy does not practice good personal hygiene and doesn't clean himself properly (gross!) or he has some sort of sphincter malfunction that needs to be examined by a doctor. I'm guessing it's the first, and that would certainly be a deal breaker for me.
Posted by DC on June 10, 2009 at 9:42 AM · Report this
50
uh biggy @15, why would you assume this guy crushing on JFJ is better dating material than the guys she dates? He is already showing jealousy - how would he act if she dated him? (To be fair, acting distant is not a bad solution, and JFJ should probably let him have that distance.)

Nice stable guys might harbor long term crushes but so do crazy head-cases.
Posted by allieballie on June 10, 2009 at 9:59 AM · Report this
JF 51
JFJ - 23 years old and still pulling that shit huh? Stop being clueless and let the dude go. You're being a jerk everytime you call him after 10 pm, gently touching his arm when he makes a joke, or comment how there aren't any decent guys in the town.

@43 - #15 is spot on. People like JFJ are only aware of their own emotions, which is why they date assholes: they make them feel something. Unfortunate but true, if JFJ's friend wants to get her, he needs to do be a bit of an asshole and then do a bait and switch. Revert to being a good relationship partner after she is on the line and it will blossom.
Posted by JF on June 10, 2009 at 10:02 AM · Report this
52
SOFAGAL: You don't even need baby wipes. Just wet the TP a bit if the sink is close. Works just fine.
Posted by Gloria on June 10, 2009 at 10:02 AM · Report this
53
@lilin
If you weren't being taken advantage of when you helped friends move, that's great!
Some people do take advantage of others, though--and although moving is the classic and extreme example, it can also boil down to always getting rides from someone or letting them buy the alcohol/pot/food and never bringing it yourself or a million other ways a person can take advantage of someone who would rather be close to the object of his/her affection than have some self-respect and boundaries. People who think doing stuff for someone will earn them boygirlfriendhood are stupid. People who take advantage of their stupidity are douchetrucks.

@Julie in Eugene (and others)
The girl is complaining about the friendship. Dan is saying that it's not going to change and if she doesn't like it, she'd better get out. Now if dude suddenly mans up and goes "whoa, I've been devoting my life to someone who is never going to fall in love with me--I need a little distance to sort myself out and maybe we can be friends again in a few years," that would solve everybody's problem, probably in the best possible way. But since he may not be reading this week's column, it's up to the person who wrote in to think about what she can do to solve her problem.
Posted by salamander on June 10, 2009 at 10:03 AM · Report this
54
Has JFJ ever actually unequivocally told this guy she does not want to fuck him? Has he ever actually brought it up or made a move?

There is nothing worse than a guy who hangs around a woman hoping to get laid, eagerly awaiting each breakup as the time he can show up for emotional support so she will realize just how cool he is and finally fuck him, even though she has told him no like 50 times. Then again, this is the basis for almost every romantic comedy ever made. If she is not careful, eventually he will chase her to the airport, destroying seven or eight fruit stands and roach coaches on the way. Then he will jump on the same plane and make a huge scene in the hope that it will finally convince her to fuck him.
Posted by Reg on June 10, 2009 at 10:13 AM · Report this
violet 55
Color me silly, but did SOFAGAL bother to check out what her bj receiver had eaten beforehand? I don't know about anyone else, but if you have a sensitive tummy and you, say, get a bit wreckless with your quisine.. well, things happen. Course, if he wasn't afraid of talking to SOFAGAL.. his woopsie wouldn't have been much of a shocker in the first place.
Posted by violet on June 10, 2009 at 10:33 AM · Report this
56
How DARE JFJ be attractive to someone and not reciprocate or cut them out of her life completely! Seriously, this is not her problem. It's the problem of dudes who pretend to like someone as a friend 'just in case' or who have no interest in being friends with girls and women they might never fuck.

Or maybe she should just uglyfy herself to prevent shit like this. Or never befriend any straight guys, just in case she leads them astray!
Posted by Kiki on June 10, 2009 at 10:34 AM · Report this
57
Wow, Dan, I disagree about 75% with your advice to JFJ. It breaks down like this:

1. If Person A has the hots for Person B, and Person B wants to be "just friends", then the onus is on Person A to put up or walk. Any "torment" suffered by Person A is entirely self-inflicted. The attraction of Person A to Person B is Person A's responsibility, and putting any of that on Person B's shoulders is, frankly, bullshit. It is entirely possible to have a "just friendship" with someone to whom you're attracted. I know. I've done it.

2. If Person A is being a jealous whiner whenever Person B is dating someone else, Person A should STFU. This is not a natural consequence of Person B's "torment" of Person A; this is Person A being a douchebag.

3. If Person A does not STFU, then Person B should cut off the friendship. Not to save Person A from "torment", but because Person A is being a fucking douchebag.

The notion that Person A's attraction to Person B entitles them to any special consideration from Person B is complete horseshit, IMNSHO. Yes, Person B shouldn't be a big jerk and rub Person A's nose in their other relationships or anything like that, but that sort of thing is covered by basic human decency.
Posted by Breklor on June 10, 2009 at 10:42 AM · Report this
58
Gotta love all the women writing in to criticize the advice to JFJ and protesting that they aren't bitches for continuing to accept friendship, and probably favours, from some poor slob who is hooked on them. Did Dan touch a nerve?

Of course, JFJ's guy bears responsiblity for his own actions and, of course, he ought to move on, stop torturing himself (or attempting to engage in emotional blackmail, if that's what he's doing) and find someone who's interested back, but that doesn't mean the girl has no responsibility whatsoever.

Certainly, you don't have to dump every guy friend who expresses a romantic interest in you that you don't reciprocate. Some (maybe even most) guys can handle the switch to "friend mode" or have sense enough to end the friendship themselves if they can't.

However, if you know that the guy can't handle it (and seeing him get in a snit every time you date another guy is a pretty big clue) and you continue to do whatever it is you are doing to maintain the friendship (and for friendship to have any meaning you must be doing something: inviting him out, accepting his invitations out, calling him, hanging out at his place, inviting him to hang out at your place, or whatever) then, sorry, honey, but you are being a selfish bitch, and you can't rationalize it by saying he could stop it if he wanted to.
Posted by baccalieu on June 10, 2009 at 10:42 AM · Report this
Julie in Eugene 59
@55 You’re right in that it’s the girl that feels like there’s a problem. She asked, should I approach him about this? Dan says (essentially), no, you should break off the friendship because you’re being a bitch. I think that’s it’s a little ridiculous to attack her for this situation (and maybe indicative of a generational gap issue? Dan is in his 40s right?).

My advice to her would be to have an honest conversation with this guy about the situation (he likes her; she says it’s not going to happen but she enjoys the friendship; she tells him if he can handle being friends with no possibility of romantic involvement then they should remain friends; if he can’t they shouldn’t). I wouldn’t confront him on the jealousy thing alone, without having the bigger conversation.
Posted by Julie in Eugene on June 10, 2009 at 10:44 AM · Report this
60
In regards to SOFAGAL. I had an ex who had the same problem. As soon as we were doing something/anything that involved him on his back there were stains on my bed. One time we were in a nice hotel in Paris and he got it on one of the nice white towels! It’s a constant problem. If it happens once it most likely has happened before and will happen again.
I think its disrespectful to engage in sex of any form if you don’t think you’re clean (unless your partner likes that). Just like Dan says about anal sex. Ya shit happens, but if you are respectful of your partner you will try your best to be as clean as you can.
Posted by Vancouver Gal on June 10, 2009 at 10:47 AM · Report this
violet 61
OH and to JFJ.. I have a similar issue with prefering male friendships over friendships with women (I have a lot more interests in common with men I meet and tend to be a little more acidic than your sugar-tongued female).. just offering my condolences. The list of lost friendships because I've had to cut off relationships with guys who were throwing tantrums and wrenches in my romantic relationships (ftr I don't tease, only my family has ever helped me move and I always go dutch with friends unless it's a special occasion) is getting embarassingly long and I can sympathize.
Posted by violet on June 10, 2009 at 10:51 AM · Report this
Julie in Eugene 62
Anyways, the fact is that both situations exist. At the Bitch end of the spectrum, a girl leading on a guy who's smitten, accepting favors and encouraging his affections, all while insisting on just being friends. At the other end of the spectrum, a girl who knows a male friend is smitten, is open and honest about the fact that nothing is ever going to happen, doesn't take advantage of the situation, and they are able to have a quality friendship.

I think some of us are just objecting to the fact that Dan automatically assumed this woman was a bitch. Maybe he has information we don't have, but, based on the info in the published letter, we can only assume that Dan thinks that all women in this situation are bitches.
Posted by Julie in Eugene on June 10, 2009 at 10:52 AM · Report this
63
Biggie (#15) sounds like an embittered "Nice Guy"
Posted by once on June 10, 2009 at 10:54 AM · Report this
64
I had a close male friend who, after several years and maybe one one-night stand, then followed by several more years of both of us dating other people. Suddenly, after years of no erotic chemistry, my friend developed a huge crush on me. Totally out of the blue. We tried to hook up, but I freaked out and couldn't go thru with it. We'd been friends for so long, I could not see us as lovers.

However after that, he became very jealous and accused me of victimizing him - molesting him, in fact - because I dared to consort with other men in his presence. I'm not talking big PDAs, we were all socially appropriate, but just the very idea that I would date someone else was suddenly too much for him. He was such a jerk about it that other people in our social circle noticed, even though I hadn't said anything to anyone.

I think guys have strong emotions, and they're not always logical - my friend just got stuck in a loop. We weren't very close friends after that, but it's been over 15 years since we've even hung out, and I don't have hard feelings about it anymore.
Posted by hazmat on June 10, 2009 at 10:57 AM · Report this
65
In regards to SOFAGAL ---

Take it from a gay guy that hates dirty asses. Buy some baby wipes and keep them in your bathroom...say things like how fresh your ass is with baby wipes. Maybe do some anal exploring of your own and open the conversation with "I want to try anal, but want to make sure my ass is clean." Drop hints about showering after shitting and 'touching up' with baby wipes.

If that doesn't work...buy the guy some maxi pads or panty liners..that's just gross.

Posted by atruck on June 10, 2009 at 11:45 AM · Report this
66
@ 37 - Dominant/submissive
Posted by UnoriginalAndrew on June 10, 2009 at 11:46 AM · Report this
savagebart 67
About poop on sofas. In Europe, they have this great thing called a BIDET. We all know what this is by now. Great for washing the ass and the genitals. Here in the good ol' USA, we don't have bidets very much. But you can fake it with a gallon jug of water next to the toilet. You figure it out. Wash your ass with water each time, then wash your hands with soap really well. This low tech method is common in India and other parts of the world. Clean butt, no skid marks. I've been doing it for many years...
Posted by savagebart on June 10, 2009 at 11:56 AM · Report this
68
Exactly, hazmat. Guys SO have strong emotions. Nearly every woman who has stuck up for JLJ uses the term "crush," when us guys immediately recognize something in her letter which tells us that sure ain't it. Yes, guys have crushes, but they also have some intense feelings that aren't quite lust, aren't quite love, it's a combination of those & something else.

Of course, the guy in this equation needs some advice as well, and I think Dan was remiss in not giving him the 'masochistic' label to JLJ's 'sadistic' one. If y'all re-read Dan's words, he calls it "thoughtless sadism," which pretty much applies to everyone at least once in their romantic lives. He's simply warning her that anything more after his advice will go under the label of *conscious* sadism, which is a no-no. But once you get past those labels, his ultimate advice is sound: If you're really friends w/ this guy, do what's best for him & tell him it will never work, to stop wasting his time, and get on finding another woman.

Posted by it's only castles burning on June 10, 2009 at 11:56 AM · Report this
69
As a female who's been on the other end of JFJ's situation (smitten with a guy who was "kind of, sort of" taken and trying to stay friends while hoping that something greater would materialize), I totally agree with Dan's advice. Cut him loose. It's the kindest thing to do. Be gentle but firm. You may reconnect later when he's gotten over you and is in a relationship himself -- that way you're on more equal footing.
Posted by Florimell on June 10, 2009 at 12:08 PM · Report this
70
Sounds like SOFAGAL's boyfriend has problems wiping himself properly. Yeah, skidmarks happen...but enough that he freaked out when she went to help pack his underwear? He needs better tp and asswiping skills.

And Dan...seriously, completely ignoring the possibility that the guy with the attraction to JFJ is the one who wanted to keep being friends in the first place...come on! She said it's been over two years. He's had plenty of time to walk away himself.
Posted by Here's my clever display name. on June 10, 2009 at 12:20 PM · Report this
71
As a female who's been on the other side of JFJ's situation (smitten with a guy who was "kind of, sort of" taken and trying to stay friends while hoping that something greater would materialize), I totally agree with Dan's advice. Cut him loose. It's the kindest thing to do. Be gentle but firm. You may still reconnect later, when he's gotten over you and is in a relationship himself -- that way you're on more equal footing.
Posted by Florimell on June 10, 2009 at 12:22 PM · Report this
72
I can see where a woman can use a man and not really give anything back. (I'm talking about friend stuff like does she give him a ride if his car is in the shop, buy him lunch, or is just a fun person to be around?)

But, I can also see where a woman is not using him, but he thinks if he sticks around long enough, she'll eventually date him. If he's not getting anything from the friendship (would he be friends with her if he was married?), then he and she should just go his separate ways. In that case, he's not being her friend. And if he's being a jerk to her, she should ask herself why she's his friend.

Likewise, if she is only using him to build her self esteem and would be upset if he dated another woman (but doesn't want to date him herself), then she's not being a friend, either.

The sexual attraction is not really the important part. What they should ask themselves is what they get out of the friendship and what they put into the friendship. It should even out. If it doesn't, that tells them something.
Posted by reneesid on June 10, 2009 at 12:34 PM · Report this
73
Dan was right on with JFJ. It's not a matter of "bitches be all manipulative" or "guys are SOOO deluded." JFJ wrote to Dan because she was upset that a guy she KNOWS has a romantic interest in her acts distant when she shows romantic interest in someone else. No one gets to have it both ways.

It's unrealistic for her to expect him to be all "DO TELL!" about her latest boyfriend when she knows he's waiting for her to finally declare her undying love for HIM. Sure, he's a fool for waiting, and that's his choice. But he didn't write in. She wrote in, pissed he wasn't happy to hear about her fucking other dudes.

If she wants to maintain a friendship (which ideally is a mutual enjoyment of each other's company on equal terms) with this guy, she'll have to realize he's going to fade out of the picture whenever she has a romantic relationship going on. Expecting him to "suck it up" is indeed inhumane on her part (even if it's equally foolish on his to keep waiting).

And yes, it's all so painfully 20's that I just want to go back in time and shoot my college self in the face.
Posted by Karla http://underthewagon.com on June 10, 2009 at 12:36 PM · Report this
74
as a woman, i think if you're going to maintain a successful, healthy friendship with a straight man who is clearly interested in you, you need to do BOTH of the following things:

1) be upfront about your feelings (or lack thereof) but not insist you "talk" about them all the time

2) be his very best wingman. guys with cute chicks get way more attention from other girls than guys without.
Posted by forgot my password and too lazy to look it up on June 10, 2009 at 1:02 PM · Report this
75
It's hard to tell if Dan's advice to JFJ was overly harsh, since she didn't give much background. First, how does JFJ know her friend has the "hots" for her? If he confessed his crush and she plainly said she wasn't interested, the onus is not hers to spare his feelings. She was honest with him, and if her disinterest is too painful HE needs to walk away. If she's guessing based on his behavior, she needs to bring it up directly and let him explain himself.

Next, I would ask if she's leading him on in any way? It's only sadism if she's giving false hints he MIGHT be able to get in her pants if he helps her move again. You're quick to jump on her for emotionally manipulating him, but fading out on your "friend" whenever she gets a boyfriend is pretty manipulative too. It's normal for sexual tension, jealousy etc to enter friendships at times, but if they are real friends BOTH of them owe each other the plain truth about their feelings rather than a bunch of vague headgames.

As for the shit stain, just clean it up. And use a towel next time. If you're willing to stick your face in his crotch and swallow his babies, what's the big deal about a little poo?

Not even going near the cattle prod story. Whenever I hear about these dangerous BDSM things, I wonder what these people plan on telling the ER staff and/or police? Eesh.
Posted by spinal on June 10, 2009 at 1:05 PM · Report this
76
It's hard to tell if Dan's advice to JFJ was overly harsh, since she didn't give much background. First, how does JFJ know her friend has the "hots" for her? If he confessed his crush and she plainly said she wasn't interested, the onus is not hers to spare his feelings. She was honest with him, and if her disinterest is too painful HE needs to walk away. If she's guessing based on his behavior, she needs to bring it up directly and let him explain himself.

Next, I would ask if she's leading him on in any way? It's only sadism if she's giving false hints he MIGHT be able to get in her pants if he helps her move again. You're quick to jump on her for emotionally manipulating him, but fading out on your "friend" whenever she gets a boyfriend is pretty manipulative too. It's normal for sexual tension, jealousy etc to enter friendships at times, but if they are real friends BOTH of them owe each other the plain truth about their feelings rather than a bunch of vague headgames.

As for the shit stain, just clean it up. And use a towel next time. If you're willing to stick your face in his crotch and swallow his babies, what's the big deal about a little poo?

Not even going near the cattle prod story. Whenever I hear about these dangerous BDSM things, I wonder what these people plan on telling the ER staff and/or police? Eesh.
Posted by spinal on June 10, 2009 at 1:06 PM · Report this
77
It's hard to tell if Dan's advice to JFJ was overly harsh, since she didn't give much background. First, how does JFJ know her friend has the "hots" for her? If he confessed his crush and she plainly said she wasn't interested, the onus is not hers to spare his feelings. She was honest with him, and if her disinterest is too painful HE needs to walk away. If she's guessing based on his behavior, she needs to bring it up directly and let him explain himself.

Next, I would ask if she's leading him on in any way? It's only sadism if she's giving false hints he MIGHT be able to get in her pants if he helps her move again. You're quick to jump on her for emotionally manipulating him, but fading out on your "friend" whenever she gets a boyfriend is pretty manipulative too. It's normal for sexual tension, jealousy etc to enter friendships at times, but if they are real friends BOTH of them owe each other the plain truth about their feelings rather than a bunch of vague headgames.

As for the shit stain, just clean it up. And use a towel next time. If you're willing to stick your face in his crotch and swallow his babies, what's the big deal about a little poo?

Not even going near the cattle prod story. Whenever I hear about these dangerous BDSM things, I wonder what these people plan on telling the ER staff and/or police? Eesh.
Posted by spinal on June 10, 2009 at 1:08 PM · Report this
78
It could be awesome, JFJ. But it depends on what level of friendship you guys share. I took a chance and became physical with my best male friend and we've been very happy together for 3 years. Nobody respects you or knows you better than your BFF.
Posted by la muerta on June 10, 2009 at 1:10 PM · Report this
79
#68 - Thanks! I think what got me confused was the big "D" and little "s". I thought he was talking about some kind of multiple "D's". Yes, I'm a bit dense.
Posted by rcd on June 10, 2009 at 1:52 PM · Report this
80
Did the guy have shit stains because (1) he shat or (2) he doesn't wipe his own ass well? If it's the former, well, that gives meaning to the old saw, "I'm so happy I could just shit." But if it's the latter, then may I suggest (a) shitting only before you shower, or (b) investing in some WIPES, some of those most wipes you find in the toilet paper section of your super market, and use those EVERYTIME after you shit. And to those of you who just use toilet paper, YOU ARE NOT CLEANING ALL OF YOUR SHIT. GET SOME WIPES - you will literally, when using those wipes, *see what you've been missing.* And it ain't pretty (unless you like shit).
Posted by brianf on June 10, 2009 at 2:21 PM · Report this
81
I recently cut ties with a girl with whom I had the same dynamic as JFJ and her sad sack. It was an intensely painful thing to do, but was absolutely the right choice. Ladies: If you insist on remaining friends with guys whom you know carry an unrequited crush on you, you're only doing them harm. It's a completely one-sided, parasitic relationship, and you owe them the decency of ending it.
Posted by JoyGrenade on June 10, 2009 at 2:29 PM · Report this
82
Dan was dead on with JFJ.

Yeah, the guy bears some responsibility too. But you know what? It's a fuckload easier to break an unrequited love pairing off when you're NOT the person who's infatuated.

Continuing it when you know what's going on and you're the person holding all the power is always cruel. I'm sure most of us have been on both sides of that dynamic at some point in our lives, but that doesn't make what Dan had to say wrong, either.
Posted by Dire Mongoose on June 10, 2009 at 2:36 PM · Report this
83
I think SOFAGAL should take a shit on her boyfriend's couch. That would make her point much more effectively than words ever could.

Interestingly, I think the same advice would also solve JFJ's problem, as most men will be far less attracted to a woman that has taken a shit on their furniture.
Posted by Shitty Advice on June 10, 2009 at 2:44 PM · Report this
84
@rcd: and you don't know how to Google.
Being dense is forgivable. Being lazy about it is not.
Posted by just google me on June 10, 2009 at 3:05 PM · Report this
85
when are the vast majority of people going to realize the only reason that men want women friends is to eventually fuck them and until then its nice to have a beer with them once in awhile.

When are men going to realize that the vast majority of women that want to be your friend in a non-romantic way is a: dick on hold situation. You are the go to guy that they can be with when all other options are off the table. An emotional sadist if you will.

Yes, yes, there are nice girls with the best of intentions-but the guy just wants to fuck you, really, he does. Maybe he thinks of it as Makin' love underneath a Cherry Moon all in black and white, but it is still the same thing. You've heard this a million times, it is true, you, most of you, aren't that great, seriously, most of us aren't that great either, I know, we know it, we just really want to screw that is it.

As to whose fault it is?

Both, but really, if you are a nice girl, a nice person with aspirations to nicety in any level: you let the bastard off the hook. If he still comes around keep telling the bastard that the road to coitus is closed. That you have no intention of being his SO, GF, whatever acronymn you choose.

It is very difficult to have friends that are of the opposite sex, difficult like being a tolerant nazi. Unless, unless, and here is the big Unless: the girl is ugly. Seriously, women are better judges of this. Men really find it difficult to rate themselves in this manner. They are all average to gorgeous, but girls know. If you are ugly the guy is your friend because he thinks, at worst, he is average, and that you are a cool chick. So, if you are ugly and you like a guy as a friend-he likes you as a friend too.
Posted by the Burning Bush's Bush on June 10, 2009 at 3:19 PM · Report this
86
Man, I have been JFJ so many times. Sometimes it is a situation where we have many similar friends. What, I am supposed to be an asshole then? Ignore him when we are all together. PLEASE.

Sometimes they are a co-worker or otherwise similar situation. So, I have to ignore them when they come to me for help, or if my computer breaks? OK...

And, sometimes they are just friends. I told this one friend that I did not want to date him when he asked. But, we had already become very close friends, and even he agreed that he did not want to break ties. I could tell this man things I couldn't even tell my close girlfriends...he just knew me so well. I was not attracted to him, he was shorter than me (I am very tall), and overweight. But, I loved him for who he was. Finally, he wore me down. He made me feel like such a shit for not wanting to be with him. We dated for 4 months. During this time, he fell completely in love with me. And I never changed the way I felt for him. I became very mean to him, I could not understand why he couldn't keep his emotions in check. It was very unfair. I feel horrible for what happened, and I broke up with him. I lost a great friend that I still miss. If he had just let it go, and not make me feel bad for not wanting to date him, none of that would've happened, and maybe we could've stayed friends.

So, yes, the guy is a masochist. And, he is most likely waiting for her to get drunk, or just give in already, which will NOT go well. If she is not interested, she's not interested. He will not be the love of her life. But, it sounds like he is a very important friend to her. Why does that make her a mean sadist? Let's keep our misogyny in check, people......
Posted by bear on June 10, 2009 at 3:24 PM · Report this
87
I find it really irritating (and somewhat misogynistic)that everyone is assuming that JFJ is taking advantage of the guy. That is such a stereotype, that women take advantage of guy friends and are teases. Maybe she is doing that. But maybe she isn't, and the guy is being a manipulative asswipe despite being told (or shown) repeatedly that it's not going to happen. And I say this as a woman who has been "led on" by a female friend, complete with all types of emotional bullshit. (Calls at midnight to whine about sucky relationship? Flirty touching? You betcha)
Posted by irritated feminist on June 10, 2009 at 3:35 PM · Report this
88
Oh, and one other thing, I have had feelings for men that did not want me for anything other than a friend. And, when I realize that they are not going to be with me romantically, I will walk away from the relationship. ON MY OWN. Same goes with men who are not good to me IN a relationship. Why is it that the poor sap is the victim and she is the aggressor? Where is his responsibility, and manhood? Bear-out.
Posted by bear on June 10, 2009 at 3:37 PM · Report this
89
Dan, incendiary advice to JFJ! Comment log's filling fast. I'm glad you gave advice other than the common pablum.

My advice: JFJ should sleep with the sap. Odds are she's lousy in bed, he'd realize it, and they could continue being friends. If she's not lousy-by-nature, most of us are lousy when we're not that into it.

At the cost of an evening of sweaty fun, she can have her friendship back. And, oh, she might learn something. It's just one night of sex, not the end of the universe.
Posted by frenchy on June 10, 2009 at 4:07 PM · Report this
Buck Mulligan 90
@ 85: Brilliant advice for SOFAGIRL and yes, probably a very effective option for JFJ as well.

@ 87: Christ… where to begin? Buddy, you've got some real deep-seated issues.

And as for this JFJ thing: I don’t think it’s unfair to JFJ to tell her to stop tormenting the guy, even if he’s being an immature, manipulative jackass—which he obviously is—and even if she doesn’t mean to torment him—which she probably doesn’t. They’re both at fault here, but as somebody already pointed out, she’s the one who wrote in, not him. What’s Dan supposed to tell her? It’s pretty obvious that neither of them is very fulfilled by their friendship, so it’s hardly misogynistic to point out that she ought to do the responsible thing and tell the guy to take a hike. Maybe she’s perversely enjoying the jealous attention she gets from him, and maybe he’s perversely enjoying the negative attention he gets when he acts like a sulky baby, but even if only one of these statements is true, then they’d both do well to find different company. It’s sad, but that’s just how it goes sometimes. And it doesn’t necessarily make either of them fundamentally bad people. Can anybody here honestly say that they’ve never behaved like a total jackass once or twice when they were emotionally overwhelmed or confused? I mean, isn’t this kind of the main reason Dan’s got a job?

Anyway, I’ve been on both sides of this kind of thing, several times over the years (and yet I haven’t become jaded and angry like Mr 87, above!), and obviously it’s tough having unrequited feelings for somebody you’re close to. BUT: NEITHER is the other side easy to be on—anybody who says it’s no big deal, emotionally, to be in JFJ’s place either never has been or is just a really callous person (or, yeah, maybe a sadist, but what I think Dan meant by “thoughtless sadism” was something along the lines of callous insensitivity). Sometimes it can be worked through, but even when it can, once it’s gotten to the point where things are going the way they are for JFJ and her idiot friend, the two people are going to need a bit of time apart.

And finally, @ 88/90 (Bear): You sound like a pretty thoughtful person, but you clearly made a mistake when you let that guy guilt-trip you into getting romantic. Pity is a really shitty foundation for any relationship, as I’m sure you’d agree.
More...
Posted by Buck Mulligan on June 10, 2009 at 4:14 PM · Report this
91
@88:

No, you couldn't have stayed friends with that guy. You never were friends. You may have thought of him that way, but you are never a friend to a man who wants a romantic relationship with you that he isn't getting. He may say otherwise, but in his heart of hearts, you're a woman he isn't fucking yet.

What's worse, the less of an asshole that he seems, the more true this is.

Yeah, guys in that relationship should sack up, but the truth is, most of them aren't emotionally equipped to do so. In that situation, you're the stronger party and most of the responsibility becomes yours.
Posted by Dire Mongoose on June 10, 2009 at 4:22 PM · Report this
92
I get crushes on guys who aren't available sometimes. I don't expect him to cut me off because I might get hurt, even assuming he becomes aware of my crush, which he's unlikely to. I can guard my feelings. If he's interested in being my friend, I'm going to continue to be his friend. He's not taking advantage of me. I'm in charge of what I offer to give. If it's too painful for me and it's detracting from the attention I owe my own partner, or the energy I should be putting into finding a partner, it's up to me to make some distance. If the object of my crush had to take action, I'd feel I was the one acting out of control and putting him on the spot.

If a guy had an unrequited crush on me, he'd never have reason to complain that I was leading him on, tricking him into doing chores for me, or manipulating him into buying me stuff. I don't, as a rule, let guys buy me stuff, and I sure as heck wouldn't let a guy do it if there were the slightest chance he'd take it as some kind of down-payment. That part of my life isn't for sale, not for cash, not for movie tickets, not for dinner, not for drinks. If I'm letting a guy buy me something, you can bet he's not confused about where he stands with me or harboring any unrealistic hopes.

Friends owe each other honesty and abstention from manipulation, period.

I'm interested in what "it's only castles burning" said @70, about how crushes are somehow different for guys, not quite lust, not quite love. Do you really think they're different from what we women get? Isn't it same bone-crushing feeling? Where the object of your affection consumes your heart and your libido?
Posted by Texan99 on June 10, 2009 at 4:27 PM · Report this
93
Re: SOFAGAL. I've never left skidmarks on a couch, but I did have a problem with them on my shorts for a while, and not for lack of fastidious wiping. The issue turned out to be one that's insidious and (I suspect) quite common for many guys as we get older: Body hair.

I first detected the "blighty-whitey" problem around the same time I started noticing irritating little hair sprouts afflicting my ears, nostrils, and eyebrows. It took a little while to put it all together (since I don't routinely check my butt in the mirror), but I eventually concluded that the trouble was rooted in ass-crack fur. And so, just as I trim other wayward tufts in my quest to be a well-groomed guy, I started (very carefully) using a disposable razor on my butt crack as part of my shower routine. The skidmark problem went away, and I got the added advantage of an asshole that's more user-friendly for butt play. Win-win.
Posted by Next To Godliness on June 10, 2009 at 4:36 PM · Report this
94
Regarding SOFAGAL, it sounds like the stain was not very big/bad if she had to get down and smell it to tell. Sceanario: Suppose the last shit he took was at a public toilet or at work with that TP with absorptive power of wax paper. Then he shows up at her place, she plops him down on sofa with a hot BJ. Is he supposed to say "hold it, I think I need to clean my ass first"?
It could be a general hygiene problem or maybe he just didn't have an opportunity to clean up.
Posted by rabbitrun on June 10, 2009 at 4:41 PM · Report this
95
I have to admit, upon reflection, that I'd be uncomfortable hanging around a guy who had an unrequited crush on me. As Auden said, "If equal affection cannot be/Let the more loving one be me." That's one reason a guy who's off-limits for me is unlikely to find out about my crush -- I'd assume he'd be equally uncomfortable.

Crushes burn out. And yes, it's possible for men to have friends who are women even if they haven't the slightest intention of fucking them at any point. Deep soulmates? Maybe not. But grownup companions they trust in a number of situations, sure.
Posted by Texan99 on June 10, 2009 at 4:44 PM · Report this
keshmeshi 96
What is it with straight men and their inability to wipe their fucking asses? Are they waiting for us to do it for them?
Posted by keshmeshi on June 10, 2009 at 4:47 PM · Report this
97
Dan, I think your advice to JFJ is way off. A real friend is someone who is your friend regardless of who you're dating. It sounds to me like her "friend" is a classic "Nice Guy."Feigning friendship in hopes of getting laid isn't being a friend.

To read more about "Nice Guys," I suggest checking out this fantastic explanation: http://moderateleft.com/?p=3763

Posted by has male friends on June 10, 2009 at 5:07 PM · Report this
Tingleyfeeln 98
The secret to a skid mark free life is extra whiping! sure, you're contributing to the waste of paper products, but you won't be leaving an unwelcome mark anywhere in the world, and it will be safe for someone to include some lovin on the taint during a BJ. Moist whipes help too, keep them at home and use them if they are available at a friends home. Finally, if it's the last day of use for a washcloth in the shower, start that day off extra fresh if you know what I mean. Take it from the hairy guy.
Posted by Tingleyfeeln on June 10, 2009 at 5:42 PM · Report this
99
"You got your electro-stim in my emo metrosexual boytoy hag bitchmonster."
"You got your emo metrosexual boytoy hag bitchmonster in my electro-stim."
They look at each other.
"MmmMmMmmMmMmmm."

Every step I carried those boxes up the stair will haunt my soul for eternity.
Posted by anonimaus on June 10, 2009 at 5:47 PM · Report this
100
The thing almost everyone is missing in the advice about the "just friends" letter is that the guy acts like a jealous jerk. If he was just one of those "nice guys" that never gets the girl, it would be fine. But he's not always a nice guy. If he can't deal with the fact this girl wants to date other people, then he needs to move on.

There's a difference between a guy who wants a relationship and gets stuck in the friend zone and is okay with it and a guy who gets stuck in the friend zone and can't adjust.
Posted by moose on June 10, 2009 at 6:02 PM · Report this
101
I dunno, I understand about LJL. I'm a 24 year old girl, who had a huge crush on this old coworker of mine. Unfortunately, I moved to another country, but he kept pursuing me, said he liked me, but wasn't into an LDR... and then after 5 months of very dedicated friendship, suddenly started seeing another chick.

I got jealous, and I've been trying to avoid him... but he keeps talking to me! When I asked why he was still trying to be friends with me, he only responded with," Why not? Women think too much."

If this girl is actively chasing after him, ya know, giving him encouragement and signs, and not giving him space and backing the hell off, he's NEVER going to get over her, and I have to wonder if she pulls the same bullshit line that this guy's mutual friends have pulled on me; that if I cut off contact, I'm somehow a drama queen and emotionally immature, that somehow not wanting to be subjected to further romantic rejection is a sign of weakness.

Finally, I have to admit, I've never gotten why you would want to be friends with someone you've romantically rejected, ie told "you are not enough." Maybe casual acquitances, but why close buddies? To make yourself feel more popular?
Posted by Martychan on June 10, 2009 at 6:09 PM · Report this
102
I agree completely with Dan's advice to JFJ. Having been in the same situation as JFJ's strictly platonic friend 3 times in a row, and having wasted my entire adult life on three friendships with people I was crazy about but who didn't want to date me, I can say with certainty that in such cases trying to stay friends does much more harm than good. In this case, it sounds like the friendship is preventing JFJ's friend from dating other women, who could make him very happy. If JFJ really cares about her friend, she should take Dan's advice. JFJ's friend probably knows that it's for the best too. And if he is anything like me, he will soon come to appreciate the feeling of freedom that comes from no longer constantly being around someone who is making him miserable.

If JFJ takes her friend's feelings seriously, then she should treat ending their friendship as she would a breakup (because that is how it will feel to her friend). If they really do care about each other, she and her friend could try to reconnect after about a year, by which time her friend will have hopefully moved on.

This type of situation is no one's fault; sometimes these things just happen :( But Dan's advice is the best way to deal with it.
Posted by elimee on June 10, 2009 at 6:15 PM · Report this
103
Savage is spot on w/r/t JFJ. I'm a guy who harbored a hopeless crush on a friend. Well, more than a crush. It went on for four years. We started off as just friends (really, just friends), and one day I started looking at her differently. We spent one wonderful summer flirting with each other, talking on the phone nearly every day, doing things on the weekend. She kissed me a couple of times and I fell for her. When the summer was over I told her how I felt and she gently rejected me.

We stayed friends over the years, dated other people. When we were both single again we started spending a lot of time together, going to movies, holding hands, and my old feelings were rekindled. Then she started dating someone else and I was crushed. Finally I took her out for coffee and explained (without blaming her) why I didn't think we could be real friends - I could see this cycle repeating itself indefinitely. She took it well (almost too well), and we haven't spoken since.

When I woke up the next morning I knew I did the right thing because I felt like a weight had been lifted. Neither of us was being very honest, and that's Dan's only point. JFJ can't help it if the guy is deluding himself, just as my old friend couldn't stop me dreaming of the day when we'd be together, but since she asked for advice he's telling her to be the more responsible of the two. I knew my paramour would never have done that for me. It just wasn't her style. Does that make her a bad friend? Not any worse a friend than I was.
Posted by NiceJerk on June 10, 2009 at 6:22 PM · Report this
104
comment number 15 and the person who posted above me (87) are an incredibly sick individuals.

just wanted to make sure everybody take notice of that fact.
Posted by Blackwood on June 10, 2009 at 6:39 PM · Report this
105
@87

I dunno, he might have a point-I'm an ugly girl and I've never had to worry about my guy friends getting crushes on me.
Posted by Martychan on June 10, 2009 at 6:43 PM · Report this
106
@PansexualPolyGenderlessChristianishSwitch:

So you're happy for your ex-unrequited-crushes when they find someone they're interested in: excellent, I think that's wonderful. But I'm guessing from your name that you're a practising polyamorist... which means that you're almost certainly in a different situation than this guy. For him, the stakes are higher -- he wants The One, she doesn't want him, but he hangs around for years because she is The One. For you, well, there's probably all sorts of other people around, so you can have crushes, but you can move past them more easily because you already have other lovers, and there are new ones around the corner, and you're not searching for the mythical The One. And all that is great. I think it's a shame that too many of the rest of us get trapped in unhealthy monogamous dynamics without ever really getting to try out alternative structures. So, on some level, I would say that your advice might not work for this guy, because he doesn't have the philosophical framework or the societal support to make it work for him in the way that it works for you.

Of course there are unhealthy polyamorous dynamics too (increase the number of people, increase the odds of said people being human and complicated); but the possibilities of ethical nonmonogamous sexuality are sadly closed off for so many people, who end up stuck believing they have fewer options than they in fact do.
Posted by MythterMe on June 10, 2009 at 7:05 PM · Report this
107
Why would a straight guy want to have a girl as a friend? I don't get it.
Posted by the outer rim on June 10, 2009 at 7:19 PM · Report this
Tingleyfeeln 108
I think what 87 doesn't understand is that we don't hang out with a woman hoping to get in her panties, we just can't help but think about shagging our girl friends once or twice any time we hang out with them. Seriously, I have women I have been friends with for over a decade, I would never ever have sex with them, even though they are hot. But I can't help but be disappointed everytime I show up half a second too late to see them with their tops off.
Posted by Tingleyfeeln on June 10, 2009 at 7:30 PM · Report this
Tingleyfeeln 109
@109 First of all, they can be better wing men than a-lot of guys, second, because you like someone and you know that dating them would ruin it, third, why throw away a friendship. I'm as horny as a man gets, but it doesn't make me an idiot.
Posted by Tingleyfeeln on June 10, 2009 at 7:34 PM · Report this
110
Re SOFAGAL: When I shared a summer house with a bunch of guys on Fire Island there was an unspoken rule that nude sunbathing was cool but you should pull on trunks before going in the house. So this one afternoon we entered the house to find another housemate buck ass on the sofa eating chips and salsa. And one of the guys said (in a voice that sounded like feathers and sequins) "DID YOU WASH BETWEEN YOUR **LEGS** BEFORE YOU SAT DOWN ON THAT WHITE SOFA?" And that's all there is to it. A guy really ought to know enough to wash between his legs.
Posted by arsfrisco on June 10, 2009 at 7:34 PM · Report this
111
@ keshmeshi: seriously!!!
an ex boyfriend of mine honestly had a 'one scrape' routine (his words) & that was it. pants up, on with the day. i was immediately called 'controlling' after suggesting a more thorough cleaning. i do it til it's done. what is with these dudes???
Posted by cleanbuns mcgee on June 10, 2009 at 7:39 PM · Report this
112
Shooting out shit whilst farting is definitely a MALE thing; I've never heard of such a thing going on among women, except when they were SICK with stomach flu or something similar. Either BF doesn't know how to wipe his backside, or he's just a pig. Either way, I'd advise her to DTMFA. Feces carry BACTERIA, remeber? Who wants somebody's fecal coliform bacteria all over their couch, sheets, chairs... of course, such things are no big deal to fags, who LOVE to wallow in each other's bacteria and viruses, and who all probably have to wear diapers full-time once they reach 40, but the rest of the human race should prefer to keep poop OFF their furniture!
Posted by Mamaloco on June 10, 2009 at 8:27 PM · Report this
113
I'd like to throw in my two cents into the JFJ dialogue:

I am in a similar situation currently. And all I have to add is how many times does a girl need to wrench her way out of an unwanted hand holding, shoulder grasp-with creepy hand strokes, or goodnight kiss, for the dude to get the hint? It's hard to vocalize 'No, I don't want to fuck you and never will' when, as others have already said, he cannot grow a pair to say 'I'd like to fuck you' himself, which is probably a large factor in my not being attracted to him.

It sound harsh but I feel deceived when my buddy thinks that maybe just this next time he will be upgraded to fuck buddy. It makes me uncomfortable and even more so because he knows that I have a boyfriend and I take every opportunity to reference him so as to underscore the 'I'm unavailable' truth but it never registers. And in my experience it'll seem like everything is fine and we are platonic and everything is great and then he tries it again out of the blue as if this time maybe I'll slip up and let my guard down and he'll finally get into my pants hallelujah.
Posted by Just a Female Jerk? on June 10, 2009 at 10:36 PM · Report this
114
Re: SOFAGAL - For a time I worked as a professional escort, and I have never had a client who left a shit-stain or who had a smelly dirty ass in any way. Dirty ass is not normal. Dirty ass is lazy and selfish.

I have no advice though, if it were me I would have called him out on it the moment I noticed it. I wouldn't care if he was at work and I had to call him and talk over speakerphone while he's in a meeting with coworkers. In fact - even better - "Hi hon, I'm in a meeting, watcha need?", "Uh, honey, you smeared shit all over the couch while I was blowing you last night, so you better bring home some fucking oxyclean or something, and go get yourself some potty wipes cuz this *shit* is unacceptable. Have a good day, see you at home"

That's what you call a "consequence", it's how we learn.
Posted by Unacceptable on June 11, 2009 at 1:11 AM · Report this
115
@115 If it bothers you so much, why do you hang out with him? Or better yet, why do you hang out with him alone? Yeah it's all fine and good otherwise, but if it isn't the first, or the second, or the third time he's done it, when are YOU going to get the hint that maybe you can never be friends with this guy?
Posted by Martychan on June 11, 2009 at 1:42 AM · Report this
116
My roommate is the person in the last letter, same kind of relationship with a guy friend. All of her other friends (including me) think this is just like your response Dan, emotionally sadistic. I think she enjoys this too, as she did it with another guy friend who had the hots for her but she was too prudish to date him, she remained friends with him but gets all jealous because he has moved on and has a girlfriend.

Except the current dude who has the hots for her is a complete douche. Yet she puts up with his misogynistic comments, jealousy,lying, obvious hitting on her, AND not stopping when she tells him to. I think because she has the power in the emotionally sadistic relationship, he has to reclaim power by being a total douche. Yuck, it's such a disgusting relationship. She's a nice girl, but I think I'm gonna poison him the next time he comes over to our apartment. The world needs less douches.
Posted by Gee on June 11, 2009 at 1:48 AM · Report this
117
@115 DTFMA. It sounds like he's a complete jerk about it and he's trying to take advantage of you. He's forcing himself onto you, frankly. If you're not comfortable about it and he doesn't acknowledge it, what is the benefit of this relationship?

DTFMA and get more friends.

Posted by Gee on June 11, 2009 at 2:03 AM · Report this
118
Dear Dan and SOFAGAL,

Loved your letter, SOFAGAL. I had a similarly disturbing experience and was totally pissed off (fortunately it all went down in a hotel, not my place). Personal hygiene and sex are more or less inseparable for most of us (unless you like that kind of sh*t) and your young man is a stank. Would you present a stinky coochie to anyone? (again, unless they like it like that). Dirty ass goes even a step further.

One nice cultural trait that some French and most Muslims share is regular ass-washing, hence the bidet and the 5-time-a-day washing ritual. Some of us could learn a few tricks from these people...... All you got to do is use soap and water, damn it! Even water alone is decent enough.
Posted by internationalmadeline on June 11, 2009 at 2:06 AM · Report this
119
Dear Dan and SOFAGAL,

Loved your letter, SOFAGAL. I had a similarly disturbing experience and was totally pissed off (fortunately it all went down in a hotel, not my place). Personal hygiene and sex are more or less inseparable for most of us (unless you like that kind of sh*t) and your young man is a stank. Would you present a stinky coochie to anyone? (again, unless they like it like that). Dirty ass goes even a step further.

One nice cultural trait that some French and most Muslims share is regular ass-washing, hence the bidet and the 5-time-a-day washing ritual. Some of us could learn a few tricks from these people...... All you got to do is use soap and water, damn it! Even water alone is decent enough.
Posted by internationalmadeline on June 11, 2009 at 2:08 AM · Report this
120
If we have all of this over him being distant occasionally then I hate to think what the post will look like when he finds the strength to cut her out of his life for good.
Posted by too lazy to think of a clever tag on June 11, 2009 at 2:11 AM · Report this
121
The blatant sexism of usage:

Men are used for physical labor (moving) or money = woman's a bitch.

Women are used for physical pleasure = woman's a stupid bitch, and usually fat.
Posted by philosimphy on June 11, 2009 at 2:22 AM · Report this
122
If you're not having sex in the butt, never had sex in the butt, and wipe well enough (try wiping with damp charmin), you don't need to expect poop. I am a believer that previous sex in the butt can "widen" it, making it more likely that "sh$t happens." I think this is one of those cases where your experiences from gay relationships often need not apply to heterosexual ones. I can say that I've received many blowjobs on my white couch, without problem.
(note, this is not an attack on homosexual sex, I just think there are differences that SHOULD be noted when giving advice. Your advice does apply, to couples that enjoy pegging)
(note 2, YES, I do believe sex in the butt widens it. Ask an old straight guy what sex in the vagina does to the vagina. Then extrapolate.)
Posted by nobody on June 11, 2009 at 5:13 AM · Report this
123
Must be a difference between the sexes. I'm happily married, monogamous, and often friendly with guys I have crushes on. If I get wet hanging out with a guy friend, I take it home to my husband. I'd be hurt if a guy refused to socialize with me just because I had a crush on him.

Obviously, this isn't what's happening with JFJ, as he's all jealous and pissy when she gets a new boyfriend. (My male friends are mostly married or gay, and I see that as a good thing.) Okay, so I have a partner, and JFJ's male friend apparently doesn't. But even single, I'd still not want to lose the possibility of friendship with cute guys just because they weren't available as boyfriends.

And yet, I see letter after letter from men saying "you're being cruel", even though she didn't say anything about leading him on, or asking him to move the furniture, or whatever.

Must be a difference between the sexes.
Posted by anonychik on June 11, 2009 at 5:17 AM · Report this
124
Hanging out with a hot friend is an easy way to keep the spank bank account from being overdrawn.
Posted by smrtcar on June 11, 2009 at 6:05 AM · Report this
125
There is a song sorta about JFJ's situation by Garfunkel and Oates called, "I Would Never."

=p~

Posted by Mirabilis on June 11, 2009 at 6:28 AM · Report this
126
Dan, right on with JFJ... though both parties are at fault.

If a woman knows a guy has a crush on her, loves her, or whatever, but she is not interested, that is no fault of her own. However, once she starts pursuing friendship with the guy, thinking he will get over it, she starts taking on more responsibility for the situation. The first time the guy got pissy over a new boyfriend, she should have broke it off. Instead, it sounds like she kept him around for emotional support, attention, and probably several other benefits (favors, gifts, solicited or unsolicited). So, Dan's right to the extent she has persisted in trying to be friends when she knows the guy thinks he loves her. Wake up, honey! He ain't going to "get over it"... its not a skinned knee he is nursing. He is carrying a torch, believing one day she will see the light. Maybe she should? Maybe she won't? Maybe one day she will regret not seeing why he is so great? Maybe she is right, he just ain't the right fit her. None of this matters.

She should cut him off and if she does not, she is being a user, a sadist, and a bitch. Further, it is not outrageous to suggest she gets an ego boost from the guy's whining and behavior but just wrote to Dan to blow off steam.

But, the guy is at fault too. Yes, perhaps she dates assholes and she just cannot see how great he is. Maybe. Yes, maybe his love is undying and pure, and all that... So what? Dude, it ain't happening, quit killing yourself, and move on. Oh wait, he didn't write in. So, Dan could not have advised this. These two simply cannot be friends and if the guy is unwilling to do the right thing, she has to. If she does not, then she deserves the crap many posters are throwing at her.
Posted by BluegrassBoi on June 11, 2009 at 6:50 AM · Report this
127
#109, really? You're not just being provocative? You can't see why a straight guy would have a woman for a friend? I'm having trouble imagining how you see women. I know your view isn't really all that unusual, but there does seem to be an incredible gender divide. I've never met a woman who had the least difficulty with the idea of having a male friend who was not a romantic possibility. And no, not just to cadge brawny favors from, or to bask in his hopeless erotic attraction. I mean a guy she'd bail out of a Mexican jail, or she'd help him find the right doctor when his wife was dangerously ill, or she'd talk to him when he wants to convert to Judaism or something. A guy she actually cares about as an individual human soul.

If I couldn't feel that way about a guy who was not my husband, how could I have built a life with my husband?
Posted by Texan99 on June 11, 2009 at 7:25 AM · Report this
128
I didnt want to read thru all the posts but i just had to say that the boyfriend with the shitty ass needs to get it together. I have had my bare medium hairy ass on many of couches and white blankets with never a stain to be found.

There is no excuse for a GROWN man to have streaks in his undies or other wise. If you havent learned to wipe by the this time them u need some baby wipes or you need to hop your dirty ass in the shower when you take a shit.

And how did she not smell anything when she was blowing this dirty bastard?
Posted by CLEAN THAT ASS on June 11, 2009 at 8:21 AM · Report this
129
In regards to poop stains:

Has anyone ever heard of using flushable wet ones after taking a shit?
Always keep them near the toilet then have the maturity to just tell the boyfriend to use them.

Problem solved.
Posted by skeetercheeks on June 11, 2009 at 8:57 AM · Report this
130
The incriminating detail in JLJ's question, as somebody pointed out upthread, is how she becomes hurt when he acts distant. If she's dating somebody else, she shouldn't expect her enamored male friend to hang around watching them holding hands. It seems likely that when he becomes distant, she then takes it upon herself to work harder to integrate herself back into his good graces. It puts the lie to the suggestion that he should have left, if he's tried and she's stopped him, than the problem is no longer him. Why is it so important to her to maintain a relationship that makes her feel uncomfortable? The next time she finds somebody new and he stops calling her all the time, she should let him go.

And we shouldn't extrapolate the scenario to our own experiences, but instead look at the details presented and make judgements based on that. Saying "The dude is manipulative because I once had a friend who was like that only he got me drunk and kissed me and I felt violated, ergo they are exactly the same," isn't really reading the question and looking at this situation. Give advice to the person, not yourself 5 years ago. Keeping personal experiences out of it and really reading into what people are saying in their emails is why Dan, as he so often says, makes the big bucks.
Posted by tvontheradioisokiguess on June 11, 2009 at 9:15 AM · Report this
131
To JFJ---break it off.

Not that long ago, I was in the same kind of situation. I liked the guy as a friend, he wanted to move in with me, breed, and he'd stay at home with the kids while I went to work.

He actually told me that...more than once. I told him hell no. It helped that we lived in different states.

Eventually, I met somebody who I really did dig, and he got pissy and jealous. I asked him point-blank how long he planned to chase after a girl who'd told him at least once a week that she was never, ever going to date him, that she wasn't interested in dating him?

It kind of hurt, since I never heard from him again, and I did like him as a friend. That said, it was very stressful for me, and I am glad to not have to deal with that, even though I was sorry the friendship ended.

And unfortunately, you may have to be harsh when you break it off with him. It's sad, but that's the way it is.
Posted by slinky on June 11, 2009 at 9:35 AM · Report this
132
This has already been covered ad nauseum, but the advice to JFJ? Just Fucking Juvenile.

He's a big boy. If it's breaking his little heart to hang around his unrequited beloved .... that is squarely in his bailiwick, my friend. He has feet, presumably. It's not her job to "protect him" by cutting him off if she truly values his friendship. Why would anyone jump to the conclusion that she's just using him for some kind of sick narcissistic gratification? If she is, she's a skua, but where's the indicators?

I've been there, and it's tough plus to care deeply for someone as a person yet not feel inclined to care for them romantically. However, pity is a rotten basis for any relationship.

If, OTOH, she's sick of his pissy passive-aggressive shenanigans whenever she's seeing someone else romantically, she's well within her rights to kick him to the curb, although some frank discussion first in an attempt to save the friendship is probably in order.

Either way, there's no "mean girl" in this scenario. Only a "friend" who doesn't understand personal boundaries any too well.
Posted by Let'sBeAdults on June 11, 2009 at 9:46 AM · Report this
133
@ biggie - it could just be me, but your comment screams of 'nice guy' mentality. That JFJ dating people other than him does not make the other guys automatically jerks, it just means they aren't him. That he gets moody and jealous could very well mean he's emotionally manipulative as well when it comes to romantic relationships and that isn't attractive or something you'd want to shunt off to your female friends.

JFJ - yes, cut him off. Yes it makes you a 'bitch', but unfortunately there's no way to escape being a bitch in this situation (as you are the attractive female), and you need to look out for yourself first. If he doesn't have the balls to say "Look, this is too emotionally difficult for me to continue a friendship with you considering my feelings." then you really shouldn't put up with any guilt for him. You can try a conversation with him that boils down to "Friendship is all we have but I value it and I value the fact that we're both adults, can you please act like one?" but don't hesitate to end it if he can't.
Posted by bucketmouse on June 11, 2009 at 10:18 AM · Report this
134
I helped a female friend move once (mattress up the stairs is heavy). A year and a failed relationship with a different girl later, I "sacked up" and asked her out on a real date. She accepted enthusiastically. One year later, we were married. That was twenty years ago.
Posted by marmer on June 11, 2009 at 10:38 AM · Report this
135
A few years ago, I experienced a situation similar to JFJ's. I started seeing someone new, and the Friend became increasingly passive aggressive, withdrawn, and finally borderline verbally abusive (as things were taking a final turn for the worse in his own on-again-off-again relationship). Had I been older and smarter, I would have called him out immediately. A couple months later, while drunk, he made the slightest physical move on me. I stopped him and very calmly but forcefully told him that New Guy and I were approaching serious and that nothing could happen happen between us. Not too harsh but not vague.

Three years later, we are both happily in long-term relationships, and he has helped me move twice. If he still thinks that one day in the distant future he'll get a good lay out of all of this, that's fine. You don't have to kill a friendship, or even have unrealistic-girl expectations that the dude will stop wanting to sleep with you--just give him enough respect, space, and emotional honesty for the two of you to develop separate, fulfilling lives and it won't be an issue. JFJ just sounds like she hasn't gotten to the point where it bothers her enough to really say anything about it.

Also, has anyone considered that JFJ's guy might be gay? The male friends who clung to me most aggressively when we were younger later came out. Maybe it's just safer, as a confused guy, to stick with a girl he feels comfortable around and who (as he must secretly know and probably likes) will never actually want to sleep with him.
Posted by NotKiddingMyself on June 11, 2009 at 11:23 AM · Report this
hartiepie 136
@124 -- the anus has a sphincter and the vagina doesn't. Big difference.

And just because you believe in something, it doesn't make it true. Find some sources to cite about your comments on butt sex....
Posted by hartiepie on June 11, 2009 at 11:54 AM · Report this
137
#114,
...the rest of the human race should prefer to keep poop OFF their furniture!...

I don't think you know ANYTHING about the human race seeing as you're not a member of it. You seem to know alot about gay men!! I can tell you that none of it's true. We don't like shit, or bacteria, or viruses. We probably practice better anal hygeine than most straight men.... SOFAGAL's BF seems to support this.

#124

The anus isn't at all like a vagina. Have you ever seen either one? The vagina is a closed pouch. It's designed to stretch to quite a large size. I know this because I've delivered several babies. The anus/rectum is only expected to stretch so far. How BIG is your shit?? And I know this because I have done colorectal surgery in my 25+ year career as a surgeon. Sex in the butt will widen it, but only temporarily. The anal sphincter has a remarkable ability to return to it's 'normal' size.
Posted by Bigbear on June 11, 2009 at 12:16 PM · Report this
138
Most of the world thinks toliet paper and wiping is disgusting. A little cup of water and a little cleaning with the left hand followed by a vigorous hand washing with soap at the sink, would fix SOFAGAL's boyfriend's problem for life.
Posted by THe Real Cleanbuns McGee on June 11, 2009 at 12:26 PM · Report this
139
"I don't see the problem if JFJ's guy can handle it."

He can't and gets jealous, dimwit.
Posted by he's not a mature, or boundary respecting dude on June 11, 2009 at 12:56 PM · Report this
140
@cleanbuns mcgee: I suggest you refrain from having children or pets. These little things tend to leave shit and piss everywhere. Still, I would say it's not the main reason why they will get you sick.

And you seem to misunderstand: I'm not suggesting we should stop wiping our butts. My message is: shit sucks, but shit happens. And when shit happens, it's not a reason to freak out and lose our civility.
Posted by mokawi on June 11, 2009 at 1:37 PM · Report this
141
Regarding JFJ: http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/…

How very appropriate.
Posted by TMK on June 11, 2009 at 2:09 PM · Report this
jesgal 142
What is it with women and shit stains? Like we've never stained blood on our underwear, sheets, chairs, etc... Once at SFO, my friend next to me started her period, there were huge clots left on the chair. Yes, it was gross, but was it a deal-breaker on a friendship? NO!!

SOFAGAL: if you can grind your head in your boyfriend's crotch, you can accept that shit happens. Just clean up afterwards, and use a towel for the future.

SOFAGAL's boyfriend: find another girlfriend, one who is more accepting of others.
Posted by jesgal on June 11, 2009 at 3:08 PM · Report this
Posted by rabbitrun on June 11, 2009 at 3:25 PM · Report this
144
Sofagal sounds like a total loon. Sniffing stains? Getting this bent out of shape and obsessive? Two words: Therapy.
Posted by Karey on June 11, 2009 at 5:08 PM · Report this
145
re: "shit happens"
I notice a number of commenters seem to think it's Sofagal's job to wipe up her boyfriend's shit. I wouldn't expect someone else to clean up my stains, unless I was in the hospital.
Posted by lulubee on June 11, 2009 at 5:33 PM · Report this
146
Do girls think most men wipe their asses thoroughly? No, they don't. Many of them don't even wash their hands after they piss.
Posted by Boooobooooo on June 11, 2009 at 5:37 PM · Report this
147
@makowi: i'm not sure what type of household you were raised in but neither my son nor any pets i've ever had leave piss & shit all over the house. that is absurd.

what is also absurd is comparing a baby who is not developmentally yet able to clean himself or an animal who lacks the opposable thumbs to clean up after itself with a grown man who is sexually active & should have the manners & responsibility to wipe his ass well enough so as to not leave shit on anything.

it didn't sound at all like sofagal failed to remain civil. i wouldn't blame her if she did get upset, it's icky to know that the person you love/fuck/share space with is leaving skidmarks on various household furnitures.

if someone had a leaky bum or some similar medical problem it would of course be forgivable. shit does happen. but for any man or woman to be lazy enough to fail to clean their ass properly is not.
Posted by cleanbuns mcgee on June 11, 2009 at 8:00 PM · Report this
148
There's really no easy answer for JFJ; people can be totally different in this situation, and with the level of detail that she provided, it's hard to get a really good grasp.
I know, I know, the personal story is dreaded, but I just want to show how totally different people handle this. In high school, I was captain of the Mathcounts team, three year winner of the chess tournament, a master at DnD, and all that. I was also a C cup with great legs and an extreme liking for short skirts who had a thing for touching people--hugging, arms around the shoulders, etc. It's pretty safe to say that a lot of my male friends had crushes on me, but I didn't really have any problems with any of them. Recently, I found out that my best friend had a thing for me from Grade 7 until we graduated high school. I was pretty horrified--I basically groveled at his feet, apologizing for any harm I might have done him and asking him not to hate me--and he just sort of laughed and said it wasn't my fault, he wasn't mad at me, and all that. We were best friends for seven years, he was in love with me for five, I never noticed, he enjoyed being friends with me, and we're still friends.
Move to college. I had a big group of friends. One day, this male friend--not a particularly close friend of mine, but he was in the group and I liked him well enough--told me that he'd fallen in love with me the moment he'd met me, and wanted to tell me before it was too late, since I had a serious boyfriend. I told him that I was flattered, but not interested, and wanted to still be friends. The guy...I think he'd been watching too many chick flicks; he was convinced that we were meant to be and that I'd come around if he hung around long enough, so he started stalking me. He'd send me four texts an hour, be waiting at my dorm when I came back...once, he told me that I shouldn't have straightened my hair that day, because the way it was curling looked great with my shirt. I had straightened my hair before leaving my room that morning. Naturally, I avoided him when at all possible, but this gave me a bit of a bad reputation; I was a bitch who was abandoning a nice guy just because he liked me. Being young and impressionable, I didn't cut him out of my life as completely as I should have, and ended up giving him the opportunity to spike my drink and rape me.
So all in all, it's hard to judge whether JFJ can still be friends with her friend; there are so many different possibilities that it's really impossible for anyone over the Internet to give her actual helpful advice. She's going to have to trust herself on this.
More...
Posted by doodle4395 on June 11, 2009 at 8:01 PM · Report this
149
SOFAGALs BF may have a medical condition that leads to anal leakage-they exist and they're mighty embarrassing to discuss.
Many irritative intestinal problems can lead to this-colitis, Chron's Disease, IBS and food sensitivities in general. He may have eaten something unknowingly and missed what happened in the fun of the moment. The underwear issue makes me think this isn't just a one-time problem.
If she talks to him calmly and like a grown-up they can deal with the situation. If she can't she should let him find a more considerate GF.
Posted by BakerB on June 11, 2009 at 8:16 PM · Report this
150
I still don't get why a straight guy would want a woman as a friend. For what?
Posted by the outer rim on June 11, 2009 at 9:44 PM · Report this
151
here's a better link for JFJ's-BFF supporters: http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2007/…
Posted by Rachel in SA on June 11, 2009 at 10:06 PM · Report this
152
I think in the case of JFL, it really depends on the person. I've had friends that were interested in me that I didn't like, I was aware, and I did enjoy it. However, there have been friends I stopped being friends with because they liked me. I've had friends I knew liked me, but wouldn't ever say anything, so I'd tease them and flirt to see if they would do anything, and I enjoyed that as well. It really depends on the person and your attraction to said person.
I've also been on the other side of the spectrum and liked someone I couldn't have. It was really hard, but I got over it and we are still friends to this day. I learned that our friendship was more important than my attraction, and I was able to get over it.
Posted by rogue on June 11, 2009 at 10:20 PM · Report this
153
Yes! men and women can be friends but everyone need to be up front. I know women that keep guys around and basically use them as default boyfriends. They love the ego boost of having a guy at their beck and call. If they have a problem - who do they call (schmuck), if they need to move - who do they call (schmuck), If they want a free dinner and a nice place - who do they call (schmuck) after that guy they fucked the first night after meeting in a bar doesn't call, who do they call (schmuck). Ladies! one of the reasons we put up with your madness is for sex! We don't get madness from our male friends!

So really you are not doing a guy a favor by sharing your madness with him without the benefits. Let the poor emotional tampon (schmuck) go!

Posted by nightsail on June 11, 2009 at 10:25 PM · Report this
154
Right on, Dan!

SNSS: Do you REALLY want to clamp a cattle prod on your balls?? OUCH! Hooookayyyy....they're of course, your balls...

I'm with Girl with guy friends. If you're honest and up front about simply sharing a friendship, what's the harm? Just don't lead them on, JFJ. Otherwise, yes--that would be cruel.
Posted by goldenrod on June 11, 2009 at 11:08 PM · Report this
155
Thin toilet paper, etc is no excuse. Wad it up, & wipe it til it's clean. Can't reach a faucet? Spit-shine is fine. The rest of the population somehow manages to keep it clean--get a tutor if necessary.
Posted by checking out my wipage on June 11, 2009 at 11:24 PM · Report this
156
It's rare, but some people are actually born without the sphincter muscle around their anus, or have some other malformation of the area. My great grandfather and his sister both had this type of deformity. He had no sphincter, and no bowel control, and she had literally no separation between vagina and rectum, just one opening for both.

One thing that happens during great sexual arousal and orgasm is that you bear down, very similarly to having a bowel movement. Most people have automatic control to keep everything in the butt, but not everyone is physically able to do that, and if you can't, it's terribly embarrassing.
Posted by mran on June 11, 2009 at 11:40 PM · Report this
157
Meh. Honestly, to the women who think it's not a terribly big deal for a man who is attracted to them to maintain a friendship are...well, delusional. I was friends with a woman for years before we realized that a latent sexual chemistry was there. She'd just ditched an asshole-to-females who was in my circle of friends (and who she'd dated for five years of me knowing him) and wound up in bed with me one drunken night.

Then I realized I just couldn't be her rebound boy - I'd been her friend for far too long to not make a go of it and I wasn't seeking a fucktoy at the time. So our FWB went downhill fast.

Now, the "pretty girl" syndrome, on the other hand - the attractive female that enjoys the male attention but does not act upon it and draws out the relationship - that's bitchery at its finest. Savage is spot-on with this. It doesn't have to be a woman, either; gay males with a pretty little boy have this syndrome as well, but the emotionally manipulative pretty girl abusing her socially awkward male friend is a fairly common trope.

"But what about..." Yes, yes, yes, I'm absolutely positive that somewhere there is one example of how this works out for all involved and that one male really doesn't mind how she treats him just as a good friend even though he drools on his pillow and secretly rubs the panties he stole from her undies drawer the last time he moved her into her new place.

But ultimately, it boils down to: if you have to ask Dan Savage for advice on how to deal with your male friend if you're a female friend who just likes him "as a friend" - you've mindfucked the boy and not in a good way. IE, you're a bitch, and you know it.

Now, there are indeed many men who are otherwise detained in a relationship with a woman (married, engaged, etc) and don't know what the fuck they want, so they focus attention on a female friend who is, for lack of a better word, off-limits. And women who do not know that about men, and more specifically married men in difficult situations with their SOs or spouses, should not be shocked.

Also, to the chick that has a boyfriend with a poo stain on her couch?

Jesus fuck, don't be shocked when money comes out of the ATM. Hygiene aside, there are people whom I will never doggy-style simply because the lack of attention to the pucker-ring and surrounding territory made sexual relations a funny olfactory smell. Stop it with the stereotypes - sure, I piss all over the toilet seat when drunk. If I haven't showered in a couple of days and I've crapped at least once, then yes, residuals are going to be around my bunghole. Solution: invite the guy to shower with you prior to sexual activity and the towels are right there. Notifying him of the idea that you like to fuck him while CLEAN is probably going to be much better in the long run than "YOU SHIT ON MY COUCH YOU DIRTY FUCK!"

But again, you wrote to Savage Love with this problem, which means, to me, that there's a 99.9% chance you already launched on his ass with a passive-aggressive streak of whiny shit about how he modified the tanning process of your couch. Honey, it's a couch. If it's not leather, it's fabric. Clean it up, and maybe next time you'll understand why kinky old ladies cover all their furniture in plastic.
More...
Posted by Malachi on June 11, 2009 at 11:49 PM · Report this
Bonefish 158
What's with all this shit about how JFJ's friend is this helpless victim, and she's off dating assholes and he needs to be an asshole to get her to date him?

Here's another way to get a girl to date you: be HONEST about your intentions. Ask her out sometime before you develop a set friendship. Hanging around some girl that you have a crush on for years, bitterly watching as she dates other guys, and then getting pissed at her and attacking her taste in men because it doesn't include YOU is not exactly attractive. It's just... creepy. You don't have to be attracted to assholes in order to be unattracted to creeps.

Having a crush on a friend would be normal if the crush developed after the friendship, but even then, he's obligated to say something about it.

And why are there still so many people who think that men and women can't be platonic friends unless the man secretly wants to fuck the woman? There are only two ways that someone can think this:

1) You were raised in one of those weird polygamist cults where boys and girls are completely separated from each other until their teenage years, and you were taught that women were these otherly beings that are too different for you to relate to them in any way that doesn't involve procreation. Or, similarly, you were taught that they were inferior things that are only good for baby-making, and why would you want to lower yourself to relating to them in any other way without that end goal in mind?

2) You're one of those guys like JFJ's friend who becomes "friends" with girls you're attracted to instead of asking them out or fucking them, so you're only experiences with opposite-sex friendships are ones where you wanted to fuck the girl.

Normal people have plenty of platonic friendships as well as sexual partners. If you don't want to fuck someone, it doesn't have to mean that you therefore want absolutely nothing else to do with them, either.
More...
Posted by Bonefish http://5bmisc.blogspot.com/ on June 12, 2009 at 1:20 AM · Report this
159
124: I've taken a poo every day or so of my life for the past 40 years. Most of my poo is hard and lumpy and larger in diameter than most dicks. According to your theory, my a-hole should be stretched and uncontrollable. Exactly the opposite: it is nice and tight.

142: With Kids-n-cats you expect some poo and pee every so often. With kids they outgrow it. And pets seem to be surprisingly clean, considering their lack of opposable thumbs. Adults, having opposable thumbs, a basic knowledge of hygiene and access to Charmin, should be able to clean themselves. Wipe your bum. Take a look at the TP, is it clean? If it is, you are clean. If it's not, repeat.

This guy, due to his fear of her seeing his underwear, knows he has a cleaning issue. That's gross and lazy. You don't like cleaning your ass so much that you'd rather have shitty underwear? Ick.
Posted by Christopher B on June 12, 2009 at 3:19 AM · Report this
Jack Frost 160
One of my best girlfriends ever had a minor hygiene problem: I was licking the lobes of her ears and came upon some crusties. I told her. She started cleaning them. It was barely a blip on the road. Obviously, "buttscape" cleaning issues are a bigger and more obvious problem. It's weird how some people don't learn basics. But people are animals, after all, and sometimes we do some monkey-ass shit. I once had a flatmate who was fat and probably had cleaning issues of her own, and she left the toilet in a wrecked state with toilet paper everywhere (ewwwwww!). Just saying: it could be worse.

Anyway, my thought is that the campfire rule shouldn't just be applied by older lovers to their young initiates. Maybe we should all try to leave our current S.O.'s and lovers better off.

So, I say: Get all nursey on him and teach him how to wipe his butt. He'll probably freak out and, being unable to disassociate you from this strong and graphic lesson (not to mention linking you with a sense of shame in his mind), he'll probably move to another state. But deep down he'll know you were right, he'll wipe his butt, he won't have skid marks, his confidence will grow, and he'll always think of you fondly and regret ever losing you.
Posted by Jack Frost on June 12, 2009 at 4:18 AM · Report this
Jack Frost 161
One of my best girlfriends ever had a minor hygiene problem: I was licking the lobes of her ears and came upon some crusties. I told her. She started cleaning them. It was barely a blip on the road. Obviously, "buttscape" cleaning issues are a bigger and more obvious problem. It's weird how some people don't learn basics. But people are animals, after all, and sometimes we do some monkey-ass shit. I once had a flatmate who was fat and probably had cleaning issues of her own, and she left the toilet in a wrecked state with toilet paper everywhere (ewwwwww!). Just saying: it could be worse.

Anyway, my thought is that the campfire rule shouldn't just be applied by older lovers to their young initiates. Maybe we should all try to leave our current S.O.'s and lovers better off.

So, I say: Get all nursey on him and teach him how to wipe his butt. He'll probably freak out and, being unable to disassociate you from this strong and graphic lesson (not to mention linking you with a sense of shame in his mind), he'll probably move to another state. But deep down he'll know you were right, he'll wipe his butt, he won't have skid marks, his confidence will grow, and he'll always think of you fondly and regret ever losing you.
Posted by Jack Frost on June 12, 2009 at 4:21 AM · Report this
162
I think we should call such a gross predicament a Chaney, or a Bush – It's the shit left behind.
Posted by Thank god that's over on June 12, 2009 at 9:46 AM · Report this
163
Poop on the couch is gross and definatley not normal. Seriously, how hard is it to wash your ass? He obviously knows he has a problem, maybe her telling him about the incident will inspire him to scrub his backside next time he showers.
Posted by RWgirl on June 12, 2009 at 10:11 AM · Report this
yourherokate 164
i agree with the first comment.

years ago i had a HUGE crush on a friend of mine with whom i spent an ungodly amount of time. i had just moved to olympia, and i didn't have many friends; this boy and i had a lot in common, and always had a great time hanging out. when i finally confessed my crush on him he made it pretty clear that it wasn't going to happen, but he did it in a caring way.

have you talked to this guy about his feelings, or have you just figured it out from his behavior? i feel like you both could benefit from an honest conversation, however awkward it may be to begin it.

once we got the feelings out in the open it was a lot easier for me to move on when he fell in love with someone else. that was about five years ago, since then this person has grown into one of the best friends i've ever had. he married that girl he fell in love with, and once i let go of the feelings i harbored for him i was able to explore more realistic options. i think it's totally possible to turn a crush into a genuine friendship as long as the people involved sincerely care about each other, and the lines of communication are open.
Posted by yourherokate http://blogs.evergreen.edu/katerr on June 12, 2009 at 10:28 AM · Report this
jeffsd 165
while 4 years may not seem like much, the gap is enough to expose different levels of maturity in a relationship. in this country the age of adolescents has been extended to somewhere around 26 years old for the typical male. helicopter parents and an ever present government have slowed male mental development. SOFAGAL at 28 is dating an adolescent 24 year old male. adolescents by definition rarely take notice of things like bad breath, smelly armpits and shit butt. a few hints might help him grow up a little. anyone who decides to date an adolescent should expect things like this.
Posted by jeffsd on June 12, 2009 at 10:33 AM · Report this
166
As noted upstream, there are some medical conditions that can result in anal leakage. I'm a 60-year-old gay physician, and in the last 10 years I've developed a very embarrassing problem with occasional farting/slight anal leakage upon orgasm. I actually considered writing to this column to make inquiries, since it's not something that's generally addressed in your typical medical text on gastroenterology. I've had a hemorrhoidectomy in the past which may have contributed to the problem, but other than that, no other GI-related medical conditions. Would appreciate others weighing in on this phenomenon. It's pretty much put me off sex.
Posted by rjm1604 on June 12, 2009 at 11:30 AM · Report this
167
I've never understood the "guys can never be friends with women" mentality. I guess it's because I'm gay. However, if you extrapolate that to my situation, I guess I, as a gay man who likes to sleep with men, should never be able to have guy friends. God, that's just stupid.

I've been in the LJL situation from both sides. The response to the issue is very situational.

When I had a crush on this one "friend" he used it knowing he had me wrapped around his finger. I realized the situation and started avoiding him like the plague because I realized it was unhealthy.

However, another crush I had on a "friend" ended up with him being one of the best friends I've had in my lifetime. We meshed so well it wasn't funny. In a way I haven't with any other friend I've had and in a way I haven't with my two boyfriends. We were just so simpatico. If he hadn't died young, I know we would still be friends to this day. I would never have given up the crush either, but I certaintly would never have outwardly shown jealousy concerning his boyfriends either. Actually, one of them became just as important a friend in my life as he was, although in a different way.

Also, in the situation where the person had the crush on me, I had to watch the situation carefully. I would let the "crusher" know about other people, but would try to make sure I didn't rub it in their face by sharing intimate details if they weren't up to that. However, some couldn't handle that well and we drifted for a while. Be aware, however, that jealousy can occur with any friend when you get a new Significant Other. Your friend loses some of their access to you because of the SO and now has to find something to do with themselves when they used to spend much of their time with you.

So, differentiate.

As for Mr. Poop. Get over it people. I don't like poop, but it's just poop. It's amazing how much you can get over these aversions once you have a child or a pet. I've slept in a damp bed before because of a leaky one. I just clean it up later. I would get out of the bed for stank, but you just take care of it. Let the guy know that you don't appreciate it and if he ever expects to get a little again he should clean first. However, just remember, just because it looks clean, it doesn't mean it's germ free. So, would you really want to put your face on a couch/bed/etc that someone just had their ass on? If you say yes, you need to go to a remedial hygiene class (I can't believe the number of people who touch the handles of a sink after they've just washed their hands in a public toilet - You've just touched the handles of something you touched with dirty hands and are now dirty again).
More...
Posted by thomashwhite on June 12, 2009 at 12:36 PM · Report this
168
rjm1604 - try enemas if you’re expecting/hoping for some sex -- just clean yourself out. Also, try changing your diet. Add more binders until your tight enough that this isn’t a problem. More Cheese and bananas is a good place to start. Just a thought.
Posted by reach around on June 12, 2009 at 12:42 PM · Report this
169
re: Episode 138 in which a woman is concerned because her gentleman friend won't pony up with the cunnilingus, i want to offer an alternative viewpoint that sexual incompatibility doesn't mean that a relationship has to end. if i didn't throw down with the pussy eating for my ladyfriend, i would assume that she would go and find it elsewhere, and to be honest i would think less of her if she didn't. loving someone means affirming their well-being, which sometimes entails them seeking out the conditions of their well-being from people other than you.
Posted by dust4ngel on June 12, 2009 at 3:06 PM · Report this
170
to all the girls with guy-friends into you but youre not into to them. Yes you can have him as a friend without doing any thing sadistic. And the cost of it is getting him laid or into a relationship (with someone as mateworthy as yourself). If you can't do that because he is a mildly mentally retarded person (or equivalent) that no one in your league would get with then your friendship is crack to him, and you're not just his crack dealer, you're also the one who got him hooked on crack in the first place.
If you're morally opposed to foisting him on some girl because that would betray your gender, you're not his really his friend. Bros before hos! The way you need a shoulder to cry on and complain about bitchy waitresses and creepy guys, he needs a warm vulva to insert his penis in; The first is your biological imperative the latter is his.
If you think its not your place as his friend, then what the fuck do you think friends are for if not helping each other achieve life goals. As a girl your chances of replicating before you die are close to 90%. His, on the other hand are about 45%.
Posted by Gabba on June 12, 2009 at 4:50 PM · Report this
171
"We're constantly upping our game—we went from pegging and D/s to flogging to hardcore beatings pretty swiftly, and we want to continue to push our boundaries."

OK, see, I feel like this should be something that's addressed. Exploration good, sure, but isn't it terribly imprudent to burn through all those exciting new possibilities in two years, when you've got the whole rest of your marriage ahead of you? If after two years he's looking into cattle prods, what kind of bad idea is he going to be considering after ten years? Worse, what about all these kinky liberated teenagers who are into diapers and pony play already at 18? The rest of their sex lives are going be both complicated and boring by comparison.

I propose a massive campaign of "Try new stuff, but leave some for later".
Posted by lilzilla on June 12, 2009 at 8:35 PM · Report this
172
I can't believe that nobody, in a sex column, has ever mentioned the critical importance of owning a HAND-HELD shower nozzle. Everybody needs one - ladies AND gentlemen!!!
Posted by bosfiddle on June 12, 2009 at 9:19 PM · Report this
173
The shit stain guy: the issue seems to me to be whether (a) his hygiene/wiping is off, or (b) if he has an actual continence problem.

(a) can and should be easily addressed - if adults don't know how to wipe themselves properly something has seriously gone wrong in their upbringing

(b) may or may not be fixable, but it warrants medical attention if it hasn't been addressed already.

In either case, if one has a consistently messy rear, then you need to take steps to deal with it. Incontinence pads, wet wipes, honesty about the problem (if you know someone well enough to sleep with them, then you should be able to be honest about these issues). If you leak in the night, then you should supply a special protective blanket, etc.

It's about decency, mutual hygiene, and accepting that human bodies aren't always perfectly plumbed. But you can't just leave shit all over someone's sofa and walk away.
Posted by someone_anon on June 12, 2009 at 11:35 PM · Report this
174
"anonimaus" (comment 101) is the star of this thread. I love the peanutbutter cup reference. You're my hero.
Posted by GasparFagel on June 13, 2009 at 8:29 AM · Report this
175
@ Anonimaus (comment 101):

This is the best comment in the entire thread. At first I thought it was song lyrics… then I noticed the Peanut Butter Cup reference. Anonimaus is my hero.

But that bit at the end: was that one of those auto signatures, or was that a reference to helping a JFJ move?
Posted by GasparFagel on June 13, 2009 at 9:01 AM · Report this
176
Oops.
Posted by GasparFagel on June 13, 2009 at 9:03 AM · Report this
177
Thank you rjm64, for your comment... I think its MUCH more likely that couch-guy's shit-stain problem is not from a lack of wiping but probably also from a leaky fart problem...

All these people are judging this poor guy who knows he has a shit-stain problem and just assuming that it is because of a lack of hygiene...

I know this is from left-field, but go see a good Eastern Medicine practicioner... in general, they a better at digestive issues than Western medicine... my doctor practices Chinese medicine and is very good with the diet counciling for stuff like this.
Posted by shelldavis4 on June 13, 2009 at 10:36 AM · Report this
178
Poo problems in this case could really go either way - hygiene *or* diet. I maintain a hair-free bum and wash (not pointlessly wipe (smear is more like it) with paper) to keep things on the up-and-up down there. Despite this, a delicious bowl of black bean soup can result in one of those unfortunate cheese-cutting incidents that seemed innocent and dry at the time - until the next look reveals a little, ahem, soiling. Vigilance is the key with this, and if the couch pooer is such a disaster that he is neurotic about his undies then it seems a complete top-to-bottom (heh) reevaluation of his habits may be in order. Diet, hygiene, vigilance, maintenance.
Posted by brenclar on June 13, 2009 at 12:11 PM · Report this
179
Dan, you were WAY off the mark in your response to JFJ.

I'm going to take a wild guess here in saying that I'll bet JFJ had to figure out for herself that this guy has the hots for her. If that's the case, JFJ's "friend" is a passive-aggressive asshole with an ulterior motive. I think he's demonstrated that fully with his jealous behavior whenever JFJ goes out with someone else. And how is that JFJ's fault, exactly? This is a guy who has tortured himself with a "friendship" (for two and a half years, no less) with a woman he knows (or assumes) he can't have. He isn't worth the anguish. Trust me, I speak from experience. And your comment about him helping her move was a little dickheaded. You're implying she's been using him for her own gain, when the reality is, it's not JFJ who's had the ulterior motive.

JFJ should break off her friendship with him, but not for his sake—for her own sanity. Eventually he's going to blame her for what he didn't say.

Been There, Done That
Posted by freddie on June 14, 2009 at 2:51 AM · Report this
180
Dan, you were WAY off the mark in your response to JFJ.

I'm going to take a wild guess here in saying that I'll bet JFJ had to figure out for herself that this guy has the hots for her. If that's the case, JFJ's "friend" is a passive-aggressive asshole with an ulterior motive. I think he's demonstrated that fully with his jealous behavior whenever JFJ goes out with someone else. And how is that JFJ's fault, exactly? This is a guy who has tortured himself with a "friendship" (for two and a half years, no less) with a woman he knows (or assumes) he can't have. He isn't worth the anguish. Trust me, I speak from experience. And your comment about him helping her move was a little dickheaded. You're implying she's been using him for her own gain, when the reality is, it's not JFJ who's had the ulterior motive.

JFJ should break off her friendship with him, but not for his sake—for her own sanity. Eventually he's going to blame her for what he didn't say.

Posted by freddie on June 14, 2009 at 2:54 AM · Report this
181
@115:

I can relate to your situation, because I also had a similar experience with an incredible male friend of mine. As supportive and inspirational as he was, I felt no sparks, and had to be honest and upfront with him that ours was never going to be a sexual relationship (he also hinted about having gay tendencies, which left me confused as to his attraction to me, a heterosexual woman!). He apparently had harbored erotic fantasies about me,including a BIG "wanna-fuck-your-brains-out" crush---regardless of how many times I reiterated my true feelings about maintaining our friendship, and not getting serious.

Just be honest and don't lead him on. Hopefully he'll take the hint and find someone he can get serious with.
Posted by wileEcoyote on June 14, 2009 at 4:28 AM · Report this
182
And yes, unfortunately it was wishful physical thinking on his part.

Unrequited love really does suck, especially for anyone who keeps wanting what he or she cannot have.
Posted by wileEcoyote on June 14, 2009 at 4:36 AM · Report this
183
It doesn't have to mean the poor guy doesn't wipe his butt. If he's got anything like irritable bowel syndrome, he might go thru a roll of toilet paper a day and a box of Tucks pads and still need a towel. == Health Educator
Posted by No Name No Place on June 14, 2009 at 5:01 AM · Report this
184
Dan, add me to the list of folks who think your advice to JFJ. I have the hots for my business partner, and he for me, for the last two years. We are both married and we like and respect each others' partners.

For whatever reason for the unavailability, grown-ups have to learn to deal with being attracted to someone who is not available and be able to maintain a freindship, a professional relationship, be good neighbors, whatever.

Posted by Old Broad on June 14, 2009 at 3:37 PM · Report this
185
@SOFAGAL:

The lack-of-soap problem's been made large of, but you don't mention any of the related symptoms in your letter. Maybe the guy isn't as completely unhygienic as people are assuming.

Producing *ahem* marks can be a sign of excessive caffeine consumption. As a devotee of the stuff myself (caffeine, that is, not skid-marks), I know that the first inkling of a risk of getting close to making any of that sort of mess is a sign I'm drinking an unhealthy quantity of coffee; and I drink rather less than some people.

Have a look at your guy's caffeine consumption. Taking too much can have all sorts of short- and long-term effects on his health, as well as your furniture. If he's consuming more than a couple of serves (caffeinated coke, coffee, tea, nodoz, etc.), try to get him to switch to fruit juice.

Oh, and too much fruit juice can have similar consequences. Don't over-do it.
Posted by Rophuine on June 14, 2009 at 4:27 PM · Report this
186
Ever notice in movies, that before sex, usually a woman will excuse herself and go to the bathroom? Ever wonder why? It's because a woman wants to be clean for her partner. Should go both ways guys.

Then again, I find it humorous that people will engage in such physically intimate acts as putting a guy's cock into your mouth and making him come, while at the same time being hesitant to bring up the fact that his butt left some mess on your couch.

As for the skid marks on his undies before their trip, he didn't want her to see any stains. Now come on, it's less than two months into the relationship. Most people show their best sides at the beginning of relationships - if he knew they were going on a trip, couldn't he have gone out and bought some nice undies for the trip, maybe even some sexy ones? Imagine guys, you and your gf are less than two months into relationship, you're going on a trip, then you notice she's packed her granny undies with skid marks in them. Turned on?

I would hope I had courage to say something to the guy about the shit stains and skid marks. I agree with everyone else who's posted that it's not normal and indicates bad hygiene practice. Maybe in Dan's case, since he's gay, I don't know but maybe gay guys leave more shit stains/skid marks due to some change in their anal muscles due to butt sex? I don't know, just wondering.
Posted by Mel Holden on June 14, 2009 at 4:36 PM · Report this
187
SOFAGAL - one twist on Dan's towel idea - I'd recommend a big colorful printed beach towel instead of the brown/beige. Deep color prints are great at hiding all kinds of stains - plus, a big towel is easier to keep in place AND a beach towel says "fun" to me!
Posted by laundrygirl on June 14, 2009 at 7:32 PM · Report this
188
I've been in JFJ's shoes; in fact, I wish I could ask someone for advice. The "friend" who has a crush on me is married, and I'm friends with both spouses. We are both musicians in a VERY small musical community - i.e. I can't break off connections with him without leaving this musical community altogether, and I would not have a music career anywhere else. Moreover, I am a lesbian, and he knows it.

I actually really don't know what to do; while my approach to the other 5 people who have crushes on me (I am one of only two single female musicians in this particular scene...) has just been to ignore the crush and behave normally, this guy has been very overt with his affection (never reciprocated by me). I don't want to humiliate him or to cause a conflict, and I don't want to jeopardize my friendship with him or with the other people I know who are friends with him, but I really wish he'd stop.

So, Dan? Any advice for me? Other than wrapping myself in a burqa or quitting music? Why is it my problem - or JFJ's problem - that someone else has trouble controlling his emotions?
Posted by 2345678901 on June 14, 2009 at 7:54 PM · Report this
xjuan 189
SOFAGAL, questioning the whole relationship with this guy only on one stain incident basis shows that you don't really love him so much (at least not now). It also shows that you still have to mature "a little bit". Loving someone goes beyond any stains his/her butt can leave on any sofa. So, don't worry: dump him. He isn't that important to you, anyway.
Posted by xjuan on June 14, 2009 at 8:04 PM · Report this
190
I am a 28 year old gay man who just recently broke up from a 11 month relationship due to my partner's confessing to me that he had slept with his identical twin brother (who is also gay). I am having a really hard time understanding if this is something that is normal among twins. I feel like I am over-reacting, but i just don't think that I can be with somebody who has slept with their brother on multiple occasions. Is this a normal twin brother bonding experience, or is it just incest?

Signed,
Throwing up in my mouth in Oregon...
Posted by wiggler on June 14, 2009 at 8:19 PM · Report this
191
Do they have the beige/brown towels at the Wal-Mart?

Cause I'm just not sure I'm ready to go to the homo store for the beige/brown towels. After this article, they're gonna know why I'm there. Buying towels. Poop-hiding, skid-row towels. "Filthy Swine! Get the Hell outta my store! And don't you dare touch that door!"

Course they'll know at the Wal-Mart, too.
Posted by 2embarassed2byTP on June 14, 2009 at 10:12 PM · Report this
192
Dan is right about what JFJ should do, but wrong to be mean about it. Also, JFJ, I was in your shoes, for years, and tried to break off with the "friend", but he didn't want me to, and just berated and berated me into staying friends, insisting it wasn't a problem, and of course it was, and he'd put his arm around me and it would be creepy, the hugs would be creepy, he'd occasionally try to logic me into trying it out, also creepy, and I thought it was all good when he'd get a girlfriend, but no, it was just a reprieve.

What I'm telling you is this: DTMFA for YOUR sake, because a guy who is lurking when you've already said flat-out-no, that guy is not your friend, and he is a vampire who will drain you of whatever he can get, all while building up a tidal wave of anger at you which will blow up in your face one day. Break it off and keep it off no matter what he says.

Also, this is for if there has been a confrontation and rejection. If there hasn't, and it's just friendships with unspoken crushes, which go on all the time, and wax and wane and the friendship goes on, then that's doable. I agree with everyone else on that stuff. I've been on both ends of those, and it's no big thing and kind of makes life more interesting even sometimes. But your guy sounds like the former.
Posted by Phoebe on June 15, 2009 at 12:28 AM · Report this
193
Wow, 194 comments and nobody's yet cited XKCD?

Presenting without further ado: The Nice Guy monologue. Credit to Randall Munroe.

"I have a crush on you.

I could ask you out, and move on with my life if you said no.

Or, WE COULD BE FRIENDS!

See, I don't want to consider that you might not be attracted to me. I'm scared of rejection, so I've decided relationships should grow smoothly out of friendships. When you have problems, I'll be there for you, night after night. Selflessly. I'll tear down the jerks you date, and wait for you to realize that only I will ever understand you. You won't want to hurt my feelings, and I won't ever force the issue. I'll tell myself it's because I 'value our friendship.'

Bit by bit, I'll make you depend on me.

You'll think about how long it would take to build this kind of connection again.

And in a moment of weakness, and loneliness, you'll give in.

It'll feel comfortable and natural. You'll quietly revise your definition of love and try to be happy. And sometimes you will be. Only the wistfulness in your gaze and the tiny pause before you say 'I love you' will hint that this wasn't the ending you'd hoped for.

Sound good?"

"... I'm going to date this jerk."

"But he doesn't respect you!"
Posted by Ray on June 15, 2009 at 3:50 AM · Report this
194
@192: I don't have any siblings, so I don't know for sure if that's normal for identical twins or not. One of my very good friends is a gay man who also was an identical twin. Unfortunately, his twin brother died of AIDS years before I ever became friends with this guy, so I never got to meet him. We're totally comfortable talking to each other about our sex lives (he's had WAY more experience than me, so this is useful), but I'd feel wierd asking him that. That leads me to believe that it is NOT a normal thing to sleep with your twin. It's incest, plain and simple, so don't let your ex try to convince you otherwise.
Posted by Anna from Orlando on June 15, 2009 at 9:44 AM · Report this
195
#70 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence. Crush to the infinite max and then some. Yes, women get them also. No, men are not privy to some all-consuming, gut-churning desire unique to your gender.
Posted by 1IwaIwp on June 15, 2009 at 10:08 AM · Report this
196
Wow...piss poor column this week. "Shitty" advice for #1...why the fuck blame her for blowing her boyfriend?! How the fuck is she going to know her bf doesn't know how to wipe? "Recently" is not a very good timeline to tell, did she blow him before or after the underwear folding incident?

#2 ouch, but whatever floats yer boat...

#3 Yes let's make sure to blame the girl because she isn't interested. How about only for not telling the guy straight up she doesn't want to go there. If he can't take it then he is a pussy and needs to grow the fuck up. (Either way it sounds like he needs to get over it, especially after this long of not getting her.)
Posted by KoleBigEars on June 16, 2009 at 1:15 AM · Report this
197
I've been in JFJ's situation many times, and in two cases I did what you're advising her to do -- I cut the guys out of my life, because after making it very clear that I would never be their girlfriend, they were still hoping and trying. Both of them took it very badly, and one of them has been harassing me ever since. He went so far as to follow me when I moved to another city, and got himself hired in the company I work in, where he's trying to get me into trouble.

I don't know what's the best thing to do in that kind of situation. To me it looks like no matter what you do, you hurt people; and I don't like the way you blame that girl. From what I've seen, guys don't handle rejection very well.
Posted by Ennea on June 16, 2009 at 3:33 AM · Report this
198
Why is skid-free underwear so difficult for some? That's what that roll of paper is there for. Get some baby or prep h wipes if your butt is too delicate to keep clean with ordinary paper. Daily bathing also works wonders. WASH YO ASS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh3AmPFAr…

Reading SOFAGAL's letter reminded me of a personal hygiene-challenged ex. The guy smelled like a rose (at least around me) until I moved in with him, then apparently stopped caring or having a working nose after a while (he also expanded to Jabba-esqe proportions). I think the beginning of the end was when a skid mark appeared on his side of the bed and I was too nauseated and horrified to go near him for several days. He didn't quite make it to the toilet fast enough a couple times, and didn't clean up the floor very well. At one point, he had an obvious stain on the back of his jeans and I had to tell him to change. Friends and coworkers complained about his stench, to his face. Eventually he only bathed once or twice a week and always smelled like he'd shit his pants. A 10 minute daily shower was a waste of time to him when he could be busy playing Sid Meier's ____. I would have assumed a closet scat fetishist, except that he was always horribly embarrassed by his bodily malfunctions if I ever brought it up or tried to get him to bathe. This guy seemed to be lactose intolerant and was drinking a gallon of regular milk daily. Whatever the cause, if your butt is leaking or can't be controlled see a doctor and get depends.
Posted by grossed out on June 16, 2009 at 4:57 AM · Report this
199
@199: You should speak to your boss about this so they know what the situation is and can try to do something about it. It might also be a good idea to check and see if your state has any anti-stalking laws. If his behavior escalates past just being a nuisance at work, then you might need to get law enforcement involved before this guy does something violent and you get hurt or killed.
Posted by Anna from Orlando on June 16, 2009 at 10:32 AM · Report this
200
I am having difficulty seeing how Dan is blaming JFJ for the situation. He acknowledged that it is likely "thoughtless" (unknowing) emotional sadism on her part. He's not saying she's doing this on purpose. He did say that from this point forward, knowing this information, she would now be doing it on purpose.

No matter what passive aggressive bullshit JFJ's friend is pulling this is likely what he's feeling and JFJ needed to know that if she's going to make an informed decision as to what to do next. It's important for her to know that being on the infatuated end of unrequited love can be pure torture. It may also put his passive aggressive dickery into some perspective (unless it's passive aggressive manipulative dickery of course).

I'm left wondering how many of you girls take offense to this because you're too often JFJ. It seems most of the guys commenting have agreed with Dan, and have likely been in the friend's position.

Dan didn't say that this is the case for all male-female friendships where one is sweet on the other. But because JFJ's friend is being a passive agressive dick it likely is the case that they can't be friends.
Posted by recordsatnite on June 16, 2009 at 1:14 PM · Report this
robt vesco, jr. 201
Speaking of poo smears ...

I'm not going to read through all 202 comments so far, so please excuse me if this has been mentioned already:

Prefab butt wipes are not only ecologically wasteful, typically American, and expensive, but they're not nearly as healthy and effective as my new favorite Internet purchase, the hand-held min-showerhead bidet, of which there are several on the market. They attach to either the hot+cold sink tap or the cold water source for your toilet, run about fifty bucks, and are a cinch to install.

They not only clean your butt far better than wipes or toilet paper, but they don't irritate your butt AND cut way down on your toilet paper use. Anyone with any sort of butt issue (like hemorrhoids) should be using one.

Plus: it's also about 500% more fun to shoot water at your ass than it is to repeatedly chafe it with paper.

Hope this helps.
Posted by robt vesco, jr. on June 16, 2009 at 2:53 PM · Report this
202
1. rofl at mi hombre vesco, word.
2. in rl I *know* Mel Holden is hot.
3. I just spent a half hour I will never get back reading an elliptical presentation on persons discussing basic ass cleaning strategies. the internet rules. And I now know how to use a bidet.
4. ass shit is bad. colostomy shit is worse. taking a round in the abdominal cavity doesn't just make your day shiny, it makes those nights waking up in a pool of your own feces some of the good times, the times you remember :)
5. at 192, mental health/peer-counselor rhetoric sez... when we are children and struggling to find not just our sexual identities but our adult personal identities it is not uncommon for 'exploration' to occur. However, repeated occurences up into late puberty with a twin, would, I think be looked upon as pathological(uh, not quite right). There may be something situational. But my gut instinct would be to reverse and run like hell. Good Luck.

Sasha
Posted by kittykittywumpus on June 16, 2009 at 3:57 PM · Report this
203
I have been in a situation that was similar to that of JFJ, only mine was with an ex. I was very upfront with him about how I had no feelings for him but really wanted his friendship, and for a while he acted like, even though he did have feelings for me, that was okay. Then all of a sudden he would act cold and say I was "using him". I told him that if he needed time that I would leave him alone until we could be friends again, but he refused to take the responsibility of leaving, though he did say I was "hurting him" by talking to him. Eventually, I realized that I had to be the one to step up, because, even though it's his responsibility, he was never going to. I had to protect him, because I do care about him, just not as a romantic partner. So I no longer carry on a friendship with him, but I hope that one day he will be over me and we can be friends again. I advise JFJ to do the same thing I did. But don't feel bad. If you've been upfront, then it's not your fault. But if you can see it's still hurting him, but he won't take responsibility, be the bigger person and leave him alone, at least for a while.
Posted by notwhoyouthinkiam on June 16, 2009 at 6:06 PM · Report this
204
My problem with the answer to SOFAGAL is that the guy obviously has a problem, be it hygienic or or organic, and he left the stain for HER to clean up. If you know you tend to leave stains, suggest a towel to begin with. If you don't want to do that, then unobtrusively check the couch after and clean up after yourself. I would make the same suggestion to a woman having her period. If you know there is a potential problem handle it.

As for why people are angry about the answer to JFJ, calling someone sadistic, even if you say it is unknowing is horrible. Sadistic is NEVER unknowing, part of the definition is deliberately causing pain. Then Dan goes on to accuse her of using the guy. Perhaps there was more to the letter than we read, but JFJ didn't talk about what he did for her, just said he was a friend who was into her and she wasn't into him. The implication is she is a user. Finally, Dan is putting the responsibility of the relationship totally on the woman. He tells her to take care of the man. She's not his mommy. She's definitely not his girlfriend. She is a friend who owes him honesty and nothing more. If his behavior bothers her, then she should end the friendship, if not then she can wait until he puts on his big boy pants and decides if he is willing to be a friend without benefits, or if he just wants to sulk whenever she dates someone else.

In both cases, the real problem is that the woman is expected to take care of the problem, not the man who has the problem.
Posted by LindaH on June 16, 2009 at 6:22 PM · Report this
205
SOFAGAL, maybe you're just getting good enough at the oral skills to make *anyone* brown the couch. I was going to suggest just blowing him on the john, but the various advice both about hygiene and medical issues is sure to be more useful. I can only add that if one can't afford one of those hand held shower thingies, a little squirt-bottle of the kind used for ironing or watering plants can really help.
It's sure to be more affordable than that fancy-shmancy toilet seat I saw at the Gay Expo last year that does everything but pull your pants back up.
Posted by Emma Nemms on June 17, 2009 at 8:38 AM · Report this
Toast 206
On Memorial Day Weekend went to a nudist resort for the first time. I did it for a number of reasons, but establishing a good self image for 13 year old daughter was one of the main ones.

But that's besides the point.
At a nudist resort, towels are a must. Everyone carries one. No one sets their naked bottom on anything but their personal towel.
The toddlers were instructed by mothers, teens picked it up quick.
Having your towel is the number one rule for the naked Miss Manners.
The only exception were infants like my sister-in-law's ten month old son.

All restrooms had bidets and showers were everywhere.

Nudist are like porn stars in that their bottoms are clean enough to eat off.
Posted by Toast on June 17, 2009 at 10:25 AM · Report this
Rev.Smith 207
maybe sofagals guy has a scat fetish and wanted to tag her cushion, as well as his own undies? Perhaps he's one of those dirty boys who wedges himself and leaves it all day...? [eww: maybe from some weird unrecquited schoolyard bully-lust... !]

@51: "You're being a jerk everytime you call him after 10 pm, gently touching his arm when he makes a joke, or comment how
there aren't any decent guys in the town."

NAILED IT.


Don't forget also: brag about the sex with boyfriend X, get dressed for a date in front of him, go bra shopping, suggest oysters and wine for dinner, compliment his eyes/hands/hair/ass/stamina, and slowly pick up a pen you dropped.
HAHA. heh.
That stuff sucks when you're crushing one-way. It's totally her fault, er, yup, ....er. wait a minute. She might be cluelessly fucking with his head.... but
He's a dick.

She should talk to him about his raging jealousy thing in simple, friend terms, not wanna-be-lovers terms: "I'm your friend, I found love - so, be happy for me, or else GTFO". Is he avoiding good potential relationships during this 2.5 years, or is he getting his too? I think we're all picturing a boy version of a bunnyboiler here; he might be fine. He sounds like a creepy stalker-in-training type of guy, the kind of guy that mooches off friends, doesn't get haircuts often enough, practices bad hygiene, and doesn't know what you're talking about when you list 5 current movies now playing, but knows all about sex positions and ways to get your dirty kink on. Kinda like SOFAGALS's freak boy who can't afford toilet paper. [[whoa - It'd be weird if it WAS sofagal's guano-slugtrailer!!]]

The moving thing likely only applies if he's got the blueball hardon during the movin' day activity; otherwise, he might be just helping schlepp like any friend might. Everyone's got different reasons for helping move - I do it for karma. Also, is he cashing in trips to the airport or catsitting in return?

Cattleprod couple: buy a TASER already, sheesh.
More...
Posted by Rev.Smith on June 17, 2009 at 3:50 PM · Report this
208
I usually like Dan's column, but his advice to JFJ was a bunch of crap, and some of the comments saying Dan was "spot on" are nothing but offensive misogynist bullshit made by guys who need to be taking to the nearest lot and summarily shot by a firing squad. I am a guy who knows how to be an adult, unlike some of these loser guys who are posting. I have had crushes which haven't been reciprocated, and I have always understood that it was MY problem. I learned to either accept a friendship, or just move on. Also, where are some of you idiots getting your ideas from? Nowhere in JFJ's letter was there any suggestion she asked her friend for favors, led him on, "called him at 10:00 P.M." at night, etc. Her friend needs to man up and realize she just cares for him as a friend and nothing more. Then, HE needs to make a choice to either deal with it and remain her friend and stop being a whiney asshole, or if he can't handle it, cut all ties. It's not the woman's responsibility to massage a man's ego or tend to his emotional well-being. We really live in a pussy society--everyone's a fucking victim. Time for people to take ownership of their own live, and stop expecting others to run around being their mommie.
Posted by cramton on June 18, 2009 at 6:17 PM · Report this
209
Gee Crampton, you're right. All the rest of us are a bunch of whiney pussies. Who cares that if everyone on the planet were like you there'd be none of the great novels or operas or movies, just nursery rhymes and Souza Marches? The sacrifice would be worth it because we'd all be as well adjusted as *you*.
Posted by Crampton-envy on June 20, 2009 at 12:37 AM · Report this
210
@162, a.k.a. thank God that's over----

Spot on (pun intended!)!!!!

Now what we need is a big elephant-sized poopie-scoopie bag; load Bush, Cheney, ad nauseum into it, and flush that shit away---for good. Guantanimo Bay, Cuba sounds like a proper final Republican pig dumping ground. Or possibly Baghdad, Iraq, or Darfur--and let 'em sweat it out.
Posted by slim jimmie on June 21, 2009 at 11:41 PM · Report this
211
Pig roast! Pig roast!!
Posted by almost done on June 21, 2009 at 11:42 PM · Report this
212
@96: GOOD QUESTION!!!!

Ahem....gentlemen??
Posted by wileEcoyote on June 22, 2009 at 3:04 AM · Report this
213
@13: Ummmm...biggie.

Do you ever get past a first date with girls? You getting any lately? No? I wonder why not.
Focusing on one's "inner asshole" only makes you a more obvious OUTER ASSHOLE, you idiot!
Posted by baba yaga on June 22, 2009 at 3:18 AM · Report this
214
Different take on Sofagal's situation.

I'm a man. Got blown on a desk once. An amazing bj from a lovely woman.

A concurrence of joy at her being the bj administrator, a while since I'd come, her technique, the situation (her office), whatever intestinal thing was going on with me...and I spasmed as I came and did a tiny wet fart on a legal pad on her desk. Luckily, she didn't notice...I did (of course)...and was able to tear it off during post-bj activity...tidy up.

Maybe guy ISN'T dirty...but wet fart a testament to your skills/his desire. His failure to admit would be embarrassement..don't necessarily damn a good thing.
Posted by Another perspective on Sofagal on July 4, 2009 at 7:47 AM · Report this
215
Fibre, fibre, fibre, is essential. And a regular schedule.
Posted by Brie on July 7, 2009 at 1:46 PM · Report this
216
I agree with useless_guilt about JFJ. The last time I found myself on the receiving end of an unrequited friend-crush, the friend in question was one of a tight-knit group of friends, so it would have been impossible for me to burn the bridge entirely without cutting out a lot of other close friends. I avoided hanging out one-on-one with this guy and limited my face time with him to group hangouts. He still eventually broke down and disassociated himself with everyone in the group. Now I'm married and he's engaged, so hopefully he realized it wasn't meant to be. He lost a lot of good friends along the road to that realization though. Straight guys can be stupid about that stuff.
Posted by themasterbakerrr on July 20, 2009 at 5:49 PM · Report this
steventa 217
I think most good looking girls have a guy around who is friend but friend only because he hasn't had the courage to ask her out for dating. I would say that unless he gets the courage to ask you out and attract you, he can live happily with jealousy in his dreams.
Posted by steventa on September 9, 2009 at 11:36 PM · Report this
218
I am in the place of JFJ's friend and it can be emotionally sadistic. In my situation, my friend/flame always strings me along when he/we get drunk and the passion always bubbles up (we end up making out, though never sleeping together) but then he ends up saying that I am not what he wants, etc. and then goes on talking about other women who are in his life sexually.

I feel like he uses my attraction to him to boost his self-esteem in between women he dates.
If the person who is not interested in the friend, like JFJ, is respectful to the one attracted to them it can be OK but I think a lot of times the "JFJ-person" feeds off of the self-esteem of other one and if she were a true friend, would back off and let the friend find real love.
Posted by shortonlove on September 12, 2009 at 1:01 PM · Report this
fatima;] 219
JFJ, i have the exact same problem. weve tried to just cut the whole friendship off so many times...but we run to each other after no more than 3 days :o i dont love him the way he loves me, and i would date him... but im best friends with his sisters...and that would fuck it up.
he understands...but i would rather not keep him waiting around the way he is. help.?
Posted by fatima;] on July 17, 2010 at 10:56 PM · Report this
220
SOFAGAL, there is an entire branch of medicine devoted to your boyfriend's problem. It is called colorectal surgery. Mostly they work on hemorrhoids, but they also do problems like anal sphincters that don't close properly. I'm guessing a few stitches might tighten him up, and make him just as good as the self-righteous assholes who have been putting down his hygiene. It's just a simple in-patient procedure. But it can change his life. If he could just realize he needs it, and that it is a well-known problem in the field.
Posted by redains on December 14, 2010 at 6:34 PM · Report this
221
Ok, I realize this post is ancient and whatever, but can I say - to non-North Americans, the concept that you dry clean your asses in general is really disgusting. In response to SOFAGAL, and maybe we can help in the spread of this practice in general, invest in wet wipes and hand some to your boyfriend (are you still together? Whatever.)

Beyond wet wipes, you can also install bidets if space permits, or Arab countries have installed specialized hoses and shower attachments for this purpose, and in really low tech households they have a water jug specifically for this purpose. ANYTHING that would ensure your asses are actually clean when you leave the toilet. Please make this the next hygiene trend! Thank you!
Posted by M.Rifai on April 24, 2011 at 12:28 PM · Report this
222
In response to all the readers who comment that the guy doesn't wipe his ass well. Sorry people, but if you think wiping before sex is good enough, you are delusional. Even if it takes away the brown, it doesn't take away the smell. If someone cannot be bothered to jump in the shower for an entire 1 minute to wash his hole with running water and soap before sex, then fucking DTMFA.
Posted by cockyballsup on June 8, 2011 at 9:51 AM · Report this
223
I stopped wiping my ass with bleached toilet paper. I won't shit anywhere else but at home anyway.
I know when I have to take a dump and it is a daily routine.
So I go in to the shower and squat, use the removable shower head, blast the water at my crack and hole, and put soap on my fingers and scrub away. Sometimes a little 'push' inside to really get at the butt goblins.
Cleans the shit out of my ass, and prevents ass crack stench later in the day.
Some people have B.O, some people have ass crack stench. Its the worst.
Posted by CleanHoop on September 5, 2011 at 6:55 PM · Report this

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