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Hets: Get Married
October 8, 2009
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JOe Newton
My partner and I have a dilemma. We're a straight couple and we want to hold a ceremony to make public our commitment. That said, we support marriage equality and are considering joining the marriage boycott (www.unmarried.org) until DOMA is repealed and every state allows gay marriage.
Our friends and family say we should marry and fight for equality "from the other side of the fence." But a number of people in attendance at our wedding would not have access to the rights we'd be signing up for, and that feels unfair.
We'd like to know what you think. Is boycotting legal marriage a worthwhile statement for straight couples to make? Or should we put gay-rights groups on our registry and fight for marriage equality as a married couple?
Hoping To Render Change
Funny you should ask, HTRC, as last weekend the boyfriend-in-America/husband-in-Canada and I attended the wedding of some dear straight friends. And we weren't the only 'mos: There were "a number of people in attendance [without] access to the rights" our straight friends were signing up for.
And all us homos were delighted to be there and deliriously happy for our friends, and not one of us would've asked them to wait to marry until gay marriage is legal in all 50 states—something that isn't going to happen until 2024, according to number-crunchin' superstar political blogger Nate Silver (tinyurl.com/cn58xy). That's when the final holdout—Mississippi—will finally legalize same-sex marriage.
Here's what I think straight couples should do in the meantime, HTRC: Get married, make a donation to the fight for marriage equality, and encourage your guests to do the same. And, hey, are you guys getting married in the next four weeks? Because there's a ballot measure in Maine that would strip same-sex couples in that state of their newly won right to wed. Help protect marriage equality in Maine by making a donation—right now—at www.protectmaineequality.org. And religious bigots in Washington State, where I live, are attempting to repeal a domestic-partnership law at the ballot box. Protect the rights of same-sex couples in Washington by making a donation—right now—at www.approvereferendum71.org.
And in addition to throwing some money around, HTRC, I think you should consider lifting one of the readings from my friends' ceremony.
"Marriage is a vital social institution," the reading began. "The exclusive commitment of two individuals to each other nurtures love and mutual support. Civil marriage is at once a deeply personal commitment to another human being and a highly public celebration of the ideals of mutuality, companionship, intimacy, fidelity, and family. Because it fulfills yearnings for security, safe haven, and connection that express our common humanity, civil marriage is an esteemed institution and the decision whether and whom to marry is among life's momentous acts of self-definition."
So touching, so true, and so universal—who could argue with those sentiments? Everyone at the wedding was nodding. And the reading continued...
"It is undoubtedly for these concrete reasons, as well as for its intimately personal significance, that civil marriage has long been termed a 'civil right.' Without the right to choose to marry, one is excluded from the full range of human experience."
After the reading—which was done by a gay friend of the couple—the officiant identified the source: It was from the 2003 Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court decision that legalized same-sex marriage in that state. It was a lovely gesture: The gay couples at the wedding were touched and the hetero couples were reminded of the injustice that gay couples face. It would be wonderful if this passage from the Massachusetts court's ruling on marriage equality caught on as a wedding reading, HTRC.
I'm a high-school student, gay, but whenever someone asks me, I lie and say I'm not. I feel like I'm dishonoring every openly gay person. But I don't know what else to do. Most of the other students at my school use "gay" and "faggot" in a derogatory way. I've only been in high school for four weeks, and I'm not sure how they would react. Should I come out?
Gay Boy Seeking Serious Help
"I'm a big fan of telling people what to do (just ask my poor boyfriend), but coming out is a deeply personal decision, one you're going to have to negotiate yourself," says Benoit Denizet-Lewis, who wrote a cover story for the New York Times Magazine about gay kids coming out in middle school.
"With that said, here's what you should do. First, the fact that you're worrying about 'dishonoring every openly gay person' speaks volumes about your character and tells me that you have a heart and a conscience, both of which will serve you well in your life as an openly gay man. Second, consider coming out first to an adult you trust (a school counselor, your gay uncle). Third, try to come out to one friend, preferably one who loves the show Glee. Having a peer ally is critical to your mental health. Finally, when you do come out to your parents, just be sure you're not in a moving vehicle."
Denizet-Lewis's first book, America Anonymous, is out now, and it's genius. But for the record: I do not love the show Glee.
Greetings from Portland, Oregon. Our fair city is totally overflowing with cute, young, scruffy boys. Which is awesome, of course, for gay guys like me. The only problem is, it seems like a disproportionate number of these boys are, well, boys without dicks—trans guys. Seems like every dance party, every art-fag event, is packed with non-bio boys. But where are all the trans girls? None of my lesbo friends talk about all the new trans girls running around town.
I know that this could strictly be region- specific, but it seems to be a bigger issue. Why is it that the butch girls all seem to become dudes, yet so few of the femme boys identify as women?
GGG In PDX
I'm just theorizing here: Most MTFs seem to have been straight-identified before their transitions (they were with women), unlike most FTMs, who seem, for the most part, to have been lesbian-identified before their transitions. So MTFs weren't integrated into the queer community prior to their transitions the same way FTMs were before theirs. So MTFs are less likely to attend, say, the kind of art-fag events where you, a gay guy, might encounter them.
As for why there are so many trans guys in Portland, GGGIPDX, trans guys clump up for the same reasons other sexual minorities do. It's not just about safety in numbers—although it's partly that—but about bettering the romantic odds. The more trans guys in one place, the more trans guys there are to date; the more trans guys in one place, the likelier non-trans guys and girls are to meet, get to know, and perhaps consider dating trans guys.
3
there was supposed to be a link with that! (tapping foot impatiently)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ULdaSrYG…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ULdaSrYG…
4
Wow, am I first?
Another take on marriage, from the het feminist:
http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2004…
Another take on marriage, from the het feminist:
http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2004…
5
Government should get out of the marriage business altogether. It's a religious institution. Government should honor the separation between church and state and confine itself to registerig civil unions. Leave it to the individuals involved to decide - is it a Lutheran, wiccan, secular or gay union?
6
Hey, Dan, you might only be "boyfriends" in Washington, but you are husbands in Massachusetts, which was still part of the USA last I checked.
GGGIPDX: What Dan says about MTF is true for the three I know. At least, they aren't really comfortable in the gay community, and hang out in other places. Although, now that I think about it, one is married to a bisexual woman, who used to hang out mostly with lesbians.
GGGIPDX: What Dan says about MTF is true for the three I know. At least, they aren't really comfortable in the gay community, and hang out in other places. Although, now that I think about it, one is married to a bisexual woman, who used to hang out mostly with lesbians.
7
I live in Portland, and I think there are more trans folks here in general, which is just one more thing to love about this town. And this seems to be as good a place as any to plug this new-ish organization that started in pdx and is now going global: http://genderfreeforall.org/
8
I hate to say it, but the French have the right take on the issue of marriage if not much else. The State is only concerned with civil unions, marriage is a private matter and the concern of religion. Civil unions should be required for anyone to receive domestic partnership benefits.
9
Dammit! I've been forever telling my girlfriend we can't get married because it's unfair to the gays. Now you're gonna mess up my whole plan... can't you just throw some old testament references around and let me enjoy my bachelorhood as long as possible?
10
Thank you so much for publishing your answer to HTRC, I've been thinking about what my soon to be fiance and I will do for at our ceremony in terms of readings, this will be perfect.
11
I am a straight person fully supportive of equal rights and treatments of homosexuals, but I will defend to the death my use of "gay" describing things (not people) in a pejorative sense, not to mention the use of "faggot" as an insult against (other) straight men. Slurs are most painful when aimed at people they don't apply to anyway.
Seriously, if you want to make an Italian laugh, call him a wop. If you want him to fight you, call him a spick.
Seriously, if you want to make an Italian laugh, call him a wop. If you want him to fight you, call him a spick.
12
And if you want to make anyone, regardless of ethnicity or sexual orientation, throw up in their mouth a little, post your arrogant, bigoted comments on Savage Love and sign them "Straight Dude."
13
To GBSSH -- it's totally okay to wait until you're 18 to come out. Right now, you have so little control over your own life. Where you live, what time you come home, whether or not you drive or are allowed to get a job, which school you go to, what you eat for dinner -- all this stuff and more is decided for you. You're going to be stuck at that school for four years. Right now, you're still treated like a child. After high school, you're a free man.
It really is okay to spend this time researching and figuring out which big city you want to move to, which college has the best gay parties, and what places that have weather that suits your fashion choices. There's a ton of great porn online that is probably illegally available to you. As well as sites that have stories and tips about coming out, where you can learn how to evaluate the risks to your mental (and physical) well being. You can see if you want to take on those risks, and, if so, how to minimize them or be prepared to deal with them.
Coming out in high school might be great. It also might ruin your GPA, your health, your happiness, your safety, your home life...only you can gauge how the people in your life are likely to react. And whether or not it will be positive experience or a shitty-but-worth-it experience or just a plain shitty experience.
So maybe think about it a little bit longer. Go to websites, read coming out stories, gather advice, and think about your goals for coming out, and how to cope with possible fallout.
One last thought: They don't send men to war until they turn 18. Even then, they put them through bootcamp training first. I know you want to support the cause and all that, but teenagers in WWII were stuck collecting foil for recycling. You can do the 2009 equivalent by standing up to people about their slurs, letting them know why they aren't good slurs. And maybe making up some better ones, like "you're so straight" In fact, the Savage readers are awesome at inventing new slurs, and they're at your service.
Other than that, I agree with Dan about telling a counselor or trusted adult or friend first. Just be aware that most high school counselors have their heads up their own asses and are not qualified to help anyone else. And that "friends" particularly in high school, go berserk when handed juicy gossip. Before you tell a single soul, you need get in a head/heart space where their possible freakout does not diminish your self esteem, and their possible asshole friend who is now out to get you will not have enough access to do any real damage.
All that said, my hope for you is that a cute queer boy falls in love, you have hot sex in the detention room when no one is looking, and later when you grow up you start a successful business. Stay srong, dude!
More...
It really is okay to spend this time researching and figuring out which big city you want to move to, which college has the best gay parties, and what places that have weather that suits your fashion choices. There's a ton of great porn online that is probably illegally available to you. As well as sites that have stories and tips about coming out, where you can learn how to evaluate the risks to your mental (and physical) well being. You can see if you want to take on those risks, and, if so, how to minimize them or be prepared to deal with them.
Coming out in high school might be great. It also might ruin your GPA, your health, your happiness, your safety, your home life...only you can gauge how the people in your life are likely to react. And whether or not it will be positive experience or a shitty-but-worth-it experience or just a plain shitty experience.
So maybe think about it a little bit longer. Go to websites, read coming out stories, gather advice, and think about your goals for coming out, and how to cope with possible fallout.
One last thought: They don't send men to war until they turn 18. Even then, they put them through bootcamp training first. I know you want to support the cause and all that, but teenagers in WWII were stuck collecting foil for recycling. You can do the 2009 equivalent by standing up to people about their slurs, letting them know why they aren't good slurs. And maybe making up some better ones, like "you're so straight" In fact, the Savage readers are awesome at inventing new slurs, and they're at your service.
Other than that, I agree with Dan about telling a counselor or trusted adult or friend first. Just be aware that most high school counselors have their heads up their own asses and are not qualified to help anyone else. And that "friends" particularly in high school, go berserk when handed juicy gossip. Before you tell a single soul, you need get in a head/heart space where their possible freakout does not diminish your self esteem, and their possible asshole friend who is now out to get you will not have enough access to do any real damage.
All that said, my hope for you is that a cute queer boy falls in love, you have hot sex in the detention room when no one is looking, and later when you grow up you start a successful business. Stay srong, dude!
15
To the kid considering coming out in high school - there can be great high schools that are really accepting, and some that are not (I taught in one that was not, and protecting gay kids, or even kids that might seem a little gay was a full-time job). Your first priority should be your safety. You have a long and hopefully happy life ahead of you. If you feel like coming out can really change your school community, that might be a good reason to risk some humiliation, but not seriously emotional or physical injury. If it simply opens you to harassment, don't - maybe to friends and family, but not to everyone. Gay men and women want children to be safe; they don't expect you to be martyrs, and they encourage you to stay safe, know yourself, and find love.
18
Dan, you're doing your level best to break down gay stereotypes by not loving "Glee." However, you're also depriving yourself of a great legal high.
Vocal Adrenaline's version of "Rehab?" The "two thumbs up" cake? The lying bitchmonster wife with the sister who is demonstrably Satan? Jane Lynch? Kristin Fucking Chenoweth?
Dude. Seriously.
Vocal Adrenaline's version of "Rehab?" The "two thumbs up" cake? The lying bitchmonster wife with the sister who is demonstrably Satan? Jane Lynch? Kristin Fucking Chenoweth?
Dude. Seriously.
20
So Dan... now that you've solved all the worlds taboo/misinformation caused sex neuroses/problems/etc what have you (and I mean that sincerely and literally,) where to next? I mean, your column isn't as interesting as it used to be. You are the victim of your own success... How will you keep the column fresh and trendy?
P.S. the crap my mind wonders...
P.S. the crap my mind wonders...
24
I need advice.
I don't know what you give advice on, but I'll give it a go.
I like this guy who I know likes me back but doesn't want a relationship right now. Well, I'm also 4 months pregnant and he doesn't know yet.
It's my exes, I love my ex so very very much, but he cheated on me with HIS ex.
Okay, anyways.
I told the guy I liked(Andrew) about everything that had been said between me and my friends about guys who like me.
I also told him about this one guy who asked me out.
He asked me out and i said no, but he asked if I'd think about it, when I asked if he would quit the drugs, he said no.
So I outright told him no.
But the guy called later last night saying he was confused because sometimes I act like I like him and other times I don't.
Was telling him those things making him think I don't?
Because I do.
But neither of us are ready for anything right now, I have a baby on the way and the father is in a different state,
he's ignoring me now, it's been 4 days since we talked.
He said his phone was dead for a couple days, but I think he was with the girl he cheated on me with.
What do I do?
I don't know what you give advice on, but I'll give it a go.
I like this guy who I know likes me back but doesn't want a relationship right now. Well, I'm also 4 months pregnant and he doesn't know yet.
It's my exes, I love my ex so very very much, but he cheated on me with HIS ex.
Okay, anyways.
I told the guy I liked(Andrew) about everything that had been said between me and my friends about guys who like me.
I also told him about this one guy who asked me out.
He asked me out and i said no, but he asked if I'd think about it, when I asked if he would quit the drugs, he said no.
So I outright told him no.
But the guy called later last night saying he was confused because sometimes I act like I like him and other times I don't.
Was telling him those things making him think I don't?
Because I do.
But neither of us are ready for anything right now, I have a baby on the way and the father is in a different state,
he's ignoring me now, it's been 4 days since we talked.
He said his phone was dead for a couple days, but I think he was with the girl he cheated on me with.
What do I do?
25
Wow... all previous comments sum up what i was going to say about the colum... But Myycinderella, you need to forget about dating boys on drugs right now, hell, forget even about making them think you don't like them. In 5 months, you are going to be a mom. And you will need to take care of said child and devote a lot of time to it. Trust me, you don't need drug abusing men in and out of your babies or your own life. You may love the babies' dad, but if he is going to ignore you for 4 days, he isn't worth it either. Focus on that baby and getting an education right now. Please!!!
26
After attending a number of friends weddings, I, as a straight woman, was starting to feel left out of the whole church wedding, man and woman were created for the sacred union of marriage deal. It seemed such limiting view of marriage on a sexual preference level and religious level. But thank you Dan for including the reading from the Massachusetts Supreme Court. If and when I get married I might just use that. It said everything I think so well.
27
"It would be wonderful if this passage from the Massachusetts court's ruling on marriage equality caught on as a wedding reading, HTRC."
It has, Dan. I play the violin and gigged at weddings all summer for some extra cash. I hear that reading all the time. It's the new, cool, "offbeat" reading.
It has, Dan. I play the violin and gigged at weddings all summer for some extra cash. I hear that reading all the time. It's the new, cool, "offbeat" reading.
28
Myycinderella, if you're real and not a troll you need to grow up. Now.
Seriously, it's one thing to fuck around when you're young and carefree with little to no responsibility outside yourself (safely, o'course) but now you have a baby to think of. A little bundle of joy and pain that is suddenly and inexplicably more important than yourself.
I was in the same boat you were in about three years ago: dating stoners that loved pot more than they ever loved me and thinking I deserved them because my daddies all abandoned me when I was young.
I was a fucking idiot. I got pregnant by one of these losers and the world crashed down on me. God flicked me in the head and I reeled for weeks, picked myself up, became an adult the fastest I've ever seen a person. Then He flicked me in the head again and I miscarried at twelve weeks.
It was a message: grow up! The world stopped revolving around me and my vagina and I got taken down a few notches by life. It was a painful, humbling experience.
Here's what you have to do. Stop talking to the loser ex boyfriends. Just stop. Heck, I wouldn't even tell the loser ex boyfriend that knocked you up that you're pregnant with his child until you can stand firmly and solidly by yourself. Then you have to learn who you really are. Who you REALLY are. Not as a girlfriend, not as a fuckhole, not as daughter or a little girl, but who YOU are. What sort of advocate are you going to be for yourself? What sort of parent are you going to be for your child? These are the only two questions that matter right now. When you figure it out, when it's as ingrained in yourself as your previous identity, after the baby is born and after you know her as well as yourself then and only then can you even begin to look for a mate. And then you must determine if he's even good enough for your. If your self-esteem is too low to do that justice, you shouldn't be dating anyone at all. Instead, judge the men around you by whether or not they're good enough for your child. Then ask yourself why you value you're child's happiness over your own. A few more months of this and you should start to realize you deserve better than losers. Then date non-losers, but date several of them (cuz losers sometimes hide in non-loser clothing) and never let these men around your child until you are in a committed, exclusive relationship. The last thing your son needs is a string of daddies that always leaves him.
More...
Seriously, it's one thing to fuck around when you're young and carefree with little to no responsibility outside yourself (safely, o'course) but now you have a baby to think of. A little bundle of joy and pain that is suddenly and inexplicably more important than yourself.
I was in the same boat you were in about three years ago: dating stoners that loved pot more than they ever loved me and thinking I deserved them because my daddies all abandoned me when I was young.
I was a fucking idiot. I got pregnant by one of these losers and the world crashed down on me. God flicked me in the head and I reeled for weeks, picked myself up, became an adult the fastest I've ever seen a person. Then He flicked me in the head again and I miscarried at twelve weeks.
It was a message: grow up! The world stopped revolving around me and my vagina and I got taken down a few notches by life. It was a painful, humbling experience.
Here's what you have to do. Stop talking to the loser ex boyfriends. Just stop. Heck, I wouldn't even tell the loser ex boyfriend that knocked you up that you're pregnant with his child until you can stand firmly and solidly by yourself. Then you have to learn who you really are. Who you REALLY are. Not as a girlfriend, not as a fuckhole, not as daughter or a little girl, but who YOU are. What sort of advocate are you going to be for yourself? What sort of parent are you going to be for your child? These are the only two questions that matter right now. When you figure it out, when it's as ingrained in yourself as your previous identity, after the baby is born and after you know her as well as yourself then and only then can you even begin to look for a mate. And then you must determine if he's even good enough for your. If your self-esteem is too low to do that justice, you shouldn't be dating anyone at all. Instead, judge the men around you by whether or not they're good enough for your child. Then ask yourself why you value you're child's happiness over your own. A few more months of this and you should start to realize you deserve better than losers. Then date non-losers, but date several of them (cuz losers sometimes hide in non-loser clothing) and never let these men around your child until you are in a committed, exclusive relationship. The last thing your son needs is a string of daddies that always leaves him.
29
Excellent advice to GBSSH, Dan (the Glee part made me LOL). Also, @13 and @15 FTW. Reading both of those comments warmed my heart.
30
@ Myycinderella: Don't worry about guys right now - they got you into this mess and I doubt any of these idiots will help you out. You might just focus on getting your life together and eating right for the sake of the Bun in your oven!
Guy A (the one you like but doesn't know you're pregnant), he probably sees the crazy amount of drama you are right now and doesn't want in on it.
Guy B (the one who got you pregnant): He's a douchebag. Remember to get child support from him, or make him help pay for the abortion or whatever you decide. But for the sake of the kid and your own, keep him out of your life.
Guy C (druggie): for the love of god stop talking to him. He is bad news bears. Stay away.
Guy A (the one you like but doesn't know you're pregnant), he probably sees the crazy amount of drama you are right now and doesn't want in on it.
Guy B (the one who got you pregnant): He's a douchebag. Remember to get child support from him, or make him help pay for the abortion or whatever you decide. But for the sake of the kid and your own, keep him out of your life.
Guy C (druggie): for the love of god stop talking to him. He is bad news bears. Stay away.
31
@ Myycinderella
You should be a bit more specific. Every time you mention one of the guys that likes you(way to sound full of yourself) you refer to him by nothing other than 'him' or 'he' or 'the guy'. Your question is not put forth very well.
From what I can get out of your question, you already know that you are not ready for a relationship with any new man and that clearly the father of your unborn child is not willing to be in a relationship with you. To try and force that would be ludicrous. You will only stress yourself out more than necessary. If you were able to get back with the father of your child, even though he clearly doesn't want that, it would make a bad environment to raise the child. Staying/getting back together for the child doesn't work. If you are only trying to get back with him for your sake then yo should wake the fuck up. You know you are capable of moving on from him, you have already started crushing on someone else, so do it. Forget about him as far as your love-life goes. Let him be a father to the child t don't get involved beyond that. Eventually, whether it e now or after your pregnancy, you will find someone that you like who likes you back and who is ready for a relationship. Date that guy when it happens, until then, just worry about being a healthy, happy mother.
You should be a bit more specific. Every time you mention one of the guys that likes you(way to sound full of yourself) you refer to him by nothing other than 'him' or 'he' or 'the guy'. Your question is not put forth very well.
From what I can get out of your question, you already know that you are not ready for a relationship with any new man and that clearly the father of your unborn child is not willing to be in a relationship with you. To try and force that would be ludicrous. You will only stress yourself out more than necessary. If you were able to get back with the father of your child, even though he clearly doesn't want that, it would make a bad environment to raise the child. Staying/getting back together for the child doesn't work. If you are only trying to get back with him for your sake then yo should wake the fuck up. You know you are capable of moving on from him, you have already started crushing on someone else, so do it. Forget about him as far as your love-life goes. Let him be a father to the child t don't get involved beyond that. Eventually, whether it e now or after your pregnancy, you will find someone that you like who likes you back and who is ready for a relationship. Date that guy when it happens, until then, just worry about being a healthy, happy mother.
32
About coming out in High School and even younger-just think what gay life here in these Unites States might be like if there wasn't a huge trauma associated with announcing your sexual orientation to the world at large. If 14 year olds were allowed to go to the movies with whoever they wanted to-and get that first kiss from whoever they wanted to without it having to be a big deal. Meet a cute person and start dating them and tell anyone with an opinion to STFU.
And if there's any physical violence take it to the police.
The times are changing, attitudes are changing with them. The less people feel they have to stand up and say anything about their sex lives the better. While it used to be an act of real courage to declare your orientation, it's no longer such an earth-shattering concept. (not even if you're a politician from a Southern state) And if more kids starting just being gay once they noticed who they were attracted to, more parents would have a chance to get used to the idea without a major meltdown.
And if there's any physical violence take it to the police.
The times are changing, attitudes are changing with them. The less people feel they have to stand up and say anything about their sex lives the better. While it used to be an act of real courage to declare your orientation, it's no longer such an earth-shattering concept. (not even if you're a politician from a Southern state) And if more kids starting just being gay once they noticed who they were attracted to, more parents would have a chance to get used to the idea without a major meltdown.
33
I have to agree with some of the commenters here: these questions are old news. Anyone who has been listening to the podcast and reading you columns knows that you're in full support of hets getting married and that refraining from marriage is only going to add fuel to the bigots' arguments against gay marriage. However, I will say this one thing: it is a great way to get readers to contribute funds to the cause for getting marriage equality in every state (and keeping it legal in those where it is already). The anti-marriage equality folks are going to lose; it's just going to take a little time. But anything worth having takes time anyway. It took damn near 150 years for women to get the right to vote and more than 300 for slaves to be freed. The US will get there... we just seem to take a little longer to do it than anyone else. The US is stubborn that way.
34
Most of these questions and answers sound like they were recycled from the FAQ of GLADD. I've never been someone "kinky for kink's sake", as I enjoy hearing about breeder problems too, but this is as close to boring as it gets.
The highlight is definitely myycinderella who sounds too close to several girls I know to be fake. My advice? You're pregnant. Think about what your priorities should be over the next six months. The soap opera that you apparently so desperately need your life to be is going to fuck up your kid. Didn't you ever want to be / do something with your life? Work towards that and try to pull your head out of your crotch.
The highlight is definitely myycinderella who sounds too close to several girls I know to be fake. My advice? You're pregnant. Think about what your priorities should be over the next six months. The soap opera that you apparently so desperately need your life to be is going to fuck up your kid. Didn't you ever want to be / do something with your life? Work towards that and try to pull your head out of your crotch.
35
@13: "You can do the 2009 equivalent by standing up to people about their slurs, letting them know why they aren't good slurs. And maybe making up some better ones, like "you're so straight""
Wait, I thought you were advising him not to come out? This depends on the school and level of confidence but at my HS not joining in the abuse was suspicious and defending gays was the same as being one. Try this: I told some friends someone had come out to me and I wasn't sure how to treat him and got their advice, which was uniformly supportive (this wasn't a random sample) so I knew what to expect when I came out to them.
Wait, I thought you were advising him not to come out? This depends on the school and level of confidence but at my HS not joining in the abuse was suspicious and defending gays was the same as being one. Try this: I told some friends someone had come out to me and I wasn't sure how to treat him and got their advice, which was uniformly supportive (this wasn't a random sample) so I knew what to expect when I came out to them.
36
GBSSH,
I'm praying your receive the same reception a classmate of my daughter received. This young man decided to wear rainbow shoelaces and out himself to everyone on the back of the bus (I'm not sure of the wisdom of such public disclosure), but it was followed by a loud, "That's cool" and pats on the back. I hope you find yourself as well received as he did then, and still does now nearly a year later. Good luck, you have lovely heart.
I'm praying your receive the same reception a classmate of my daughter received. This young man decided to wear rainbow shoelaces and out himself to everyone on the back of the bus (I'm not sure of the wisdom of such public disclosure), but it was followed by a loud, "That's cool" and pats on the back. I hope you find yourself as well received as he did then, and still does now nearly a year later. Good luck, you have lovely heart.
38
holy shit. you're fucking PREGNANT and all you can worry about is some guy you like and wondering if he likes you???? oh the future of the world at large.....it makes me so bloody sad for couples who can't have children.....sigh
40
Thanx Dan,now all us guys who have been telling our girfriends we cant marry them until everyone has the right to marry need to find a new excuse
41
My two sisters-in-law owned a flower shop. I did feel really weird asking them to do the flowers for my wedding when they themselves can't legally marry. But of course as florists they dealt with weddings all the time and one's vocation truly is a matter of choice.
42
"Marriage is a vital social institution" seems ironic that a court that seeks to destroy such a vital institution was the one who said this.
"The exclusive commitment of two individuals to each other" Why stop at two come 2024?, according to Savage and his friends. If marriage is going to be dismantled in order for homosexuals to gain entrance into it then why can't polygamist also gain entrance? or people in "consensual" (according to such luminaries as Mackenzie Phillips) incest or even worst offenses like that of Polanski? Some people also profess deep love for their pets, why should they be denied marriage?
"The exclusive commitment of two individuals to each other" Why stop at two come 2024?, according to Savage and his friends. If marriage is going to be dismantled in order for homosexuals to gain entrance into it then why can't polygamist also gain entrance? or people in "consensual" (according to such luminaries as Mackenzie Phillips) incest or even worst offenses like that of Polanski? Some people also profess deep love for their pets, why should they be denied marriage?
43
"Thanx Dan,now all us guys who have been telling our girfriends we cant marry them until everyone has the right to marry need to find a new excuse"
... This is one of several comments like this. If you don't want to marry your girlfriends, let her be free and find someone who does!!!!! Whether it's immaturity or fear of commitment or whatever cliche straight guy problem, it's not fair to her!
... This is one of several comments like this. If you don't want to marry your girlfriends, let her be free and find someone who does!!!!! Whether it's immaturity or fear of commitment or whatever cliche straight guy problem, it's not fair to her!
44
@42 I am so sorry you did not receive a heart and soul upon birth. May God forgive you for your lack of compassion and love.
45
I`m not afraid of commitment,I am afraid of divorce.Men get the raw end of the deal in divorce.Been there done that and got the tee shirt.She gets the house,the kids,my paychecque,her paychecque and her new boyfriends paycheque.Now there is an extremely unfair issue that rarely gets talked about.
46
@42 seriously?
first of all, i agree - polygamists who are entering the relationship willingly should be allowed to be married. this does not include children forced to wed old men.
second of all, if an incestuous couple wishes to marry and again, it is consensual - why not? none of your business. the only thing that might be considered an issue is whether or not it is fair to their potential offspring, as it has been proven that incest leads to malformations and defects.
finally... pets? really? look i dont know what you do in your spare time, but i can only guess that this is the real reason for your post. listen, your dog can not give consent. what you are doing with your dog is wrong. if you manage to teach your dog a human language and get them to consent, then hey, i'll believe they want you just as badly as you want him. until then, no, you do NOT have permission to do your dog. sorry. so leave him alone.
first of all, i agree - polygamists who are entering the relationship willingly should be allowed to be married. this does not include children forced to wed old men.
second of all, if an incestuous couple wishes to marry and again, it is consensual - why not? none of your business. the only thing that might be considered an issue is whether or not it is fair to their potential offspring, as it has been proven that incest leads to malformations and defects.
finally... pets? really? look i dont know what you do in your spare time, but i can only guess that this is the real reason for your post. listen, your dog can not give consent. what you are doing with your dog is wrong. if you manage to teach your dog a human language and get them to consent, then hey, i'll believe they want you just as badly as you want him. until then, no, you do NOT have permission to do your dog. sorry. so leave him alone.
48
#45, if that's the case, how about you be upfront and say you got burned in the last marriage, so you're not ready for another one yet? Sounds better than stringing girls along with a lie, and using gay people as an excuse to make yourself sound noble. What happened to you was unfair, so now you're going to turn around and be unfair to women who show interest in you? What, you afraid you won't get laid if you tell the truth?
49
Everyone, please ignore LOVESCHILD as s/he is completely leotarded and doesn't deserve our attention. As the Simpsons said on the Treehouse of Horror episode of a few years back: "just don't look and they'll go away."
50
Poor Loveschild doesn't know that there's a legal distinction between one person vs. three people (monogamous SSM vs. polygamy); adults vs. children; unrelated persons vs. relatives; or even humans vs. animals.
Or maybe Loveschild does know all this, and is just very, very desperate to maintain one of the last legal distinctions between men and women (which group is allowed to marry women). I'm still trying to figure out the source of this widespread desperation. What is so threatening to Loveschild about having no legal distinctions between men and women? Is she afraid of the draft?
Or maybe Loveschild does know all this, and is just very, very desperate to maintain one of the last legal distinctions between men and women (which group is allowed to marry women). I'm still trying to figure out the source of this widespread desperation. What is so threatening to Loveschild about having no legal distinctions between men and women? Is she afraid of the draft?
51
@Gay Boy Seeking Serious Help - the best advise I can give you is join your school’s drama club! In general it WILL almost certainly have gay/bi boys and if on the off chance it does not at the very least open minded straight boys and girls.
In 1978 I came out in 9th grade in Orange County, CA! You think you have it tough now, boy oh boy. I felt totally alone until I started noticing little subtle signs of other gays around me: the fashion guy wearing a bit too much jewelry, the guy that checked me a out a little bit too long in the locker room, the smart sexy nerd that always was there to help me out with my homework. Then I joined the Drama club, and soon enough I had my own gaggle of gays and "fag hags" - btw I hate the term but these girls routinely called themselves that (one of them is still my best friend 33 years later.)
And best yet by bounding together we created self promulgating cycle. The more visibly we became in and out of school the more we attracted other gay/lesbian/outsiders. By the time I graduated from high school 1981, there was at least 20-25 openly gay/bi kids in my circle of friends! And even more reached out to me after high school.
And almost all of them at one point said something to the effect, "I saw you guys having fun and a sense of camaraderie that I just wanted to join in on the fun".
Also as a teen I looked up in the yellow pages (how archaic) and found a Gay Community Center in my town which lucky for me they had a youth group that help me out a lot and there too I made more friends outside of my initial high school clique.
Lastly stay away from chat rooms with older guys trying to “help” you out. Stay within a year or two in either direction of your age range.
More...
In 1978 I came out in 9th grade in Orange County, CA! You think you have it tough now, boy oh boy. I felt totally alone until I started noticing little subtle signs of other gays around me: the fashion guy wearing a bit too much jewelry, the guy that checked me a out a little bit too long in the locker room, the smart sexy nerd that always was there to help me out with my homework. Then I joined the Drama club, and soon enough I had my own gaggle of gays and "fag hags" - btw I hate the term but these girls routinely called themselves that (one of them is still my best friend 33 years later.)
And best yet by bounding together we created self promulgating cycle. The more visibly we became in and out of school the more we attracted other gay/lesbian/outsiders. By the time I graduated from high school 1981, there was at least 20-25 openly gay/bi kids in my circle of friends! And even more reached out to me after high school.
And almost all of them at one point said something to the effect, "I saw you guys having fun and a sense of camaraderie that I just wanted to join in on the fun".
Also as a teen I looked up in the yellow pages (how archaic) and found a Gay Community Center in my town which lucky for me they had a youth group that help me out a lot and there too I made more friends outside of my initial high school clique.
Lastly stay away from chat rooms with older guys trying to “help” you out. Stay within a year or two in either direction of your age range.
52
Dan, one other symbolic thing that opposite sex marriagers can do, aside from all the other great advice you gave (i'm totally lifting that reading for my wedding, if i ever have one) is that they can insist on getting their civil marriage license only from a state that performs gay marriages. Thus, putting your money and reliance on the law where your mouth is. Take a weekend vacation to Boston before the ceremony, get civilly married by their justice of the peace, and then bring the civil marriage license home with you, to show off at your religious ceremony/secular reception. It clearly doesn't make up for the fuckedupness that is the current situation, but it's, again, something.
53
Thanks so much, Dan, for bringing the Massachusetts Court reading to my attention. I've been thinking about what should be said before my fiance and I say our vows at our wedding in 2011. Now I have the perfect reading to share with all our guests.
And @46? Great response! I couldn't have said it better.
And @46? Great response! I couldn't have said it better.
54
@45, so just be honest. If she walks, that is her right. If she marries someone else because you won't marry her, that's her right too. You have no right to make decisions for her by withholding crucial information. If you want a permanent girlfriend who is happy to never marry, you might have a chance of finding her if you are honest about what you're looking for. But as long as you are too afraid to seek what you want, you'll never find it because eventually she WILL catch on and dump you.
55
GGGIPDX, I've always said "Portland is run by transmen". All the great parties a scruffy hipstery guy like you enjoy? All those awesome little bars? A lot of the adorable scruffy guys who give you the once over? Yup.
Heck, even bear events in PDX are frequented by quite a few cute scruffy dudes that were given the wrong erector set by the stork.
Portland is a very open city to live in, and the generally relaxed and genderbias-free atmosphere is a good place for folks of all gender identities (and non-identities!).
Heck, even bear events in PDX are frequented by quite a few cute scruffy dudes that were given the wrong erector set by the stork.
Portland is a very open city to live in, and the generally relaxed and genderbias-free atmosphere is a good place for folks of all gender identities (and non-identities!).
56
@28: Amen!
@24: Reality has arrived and your baby is arriving in a few months. Don't get overwhelmed with all the details of the crazy and f***ed-up life your living right now. Just look at the positive, you're going to be a Mom and you will succeed. My sister had a baby at 14 and it was the best thing that ever happened to her. Almost the same story as yours. She changed her life, became self-sufficient and has a wonderful 23 year-old son. Find other women/girls that are in your same predicament, and build from there, let the craziness go, and always believe in yourself.
@24: Reality has arrived and your baby is arriving in a few months. Don't get overwhelmed with all the details of the crazy and f***ed-up life your living right now. Just look at the positive, you're going to be a Mom and you will succeed. My sister had a baby at 14 and it was the best thing that ever happened to her. Almost the same story as yours. She changed her life, became self-sufficient and has a wonderful 23 year-old son. Find other women/girls that are in your same predicament, and build from there, let the craziness go, and always believe in yourself.
57
@28: Amen!
@24: Reality has arrived and your baby is arriving in a few months. Don't get overwhelmed with all the details of the crazy and f***ed-up life your living right now. Just look at the positive, you're going to be a Mom and you will succeed. My sister had a baby at 14 and it was the best thing that ever happened to her. Almost the same story as yours. She changed her life, became self-sufficient and has a wonderful 23 year-old son. Find other women/girls that are in your same predicament, and build from there, let the craziness go, and always believe in yourself.
@24: Reality has arrived and your baby is arriving in a few months. Don't get overwhelmed with all the details of the crazy and f***ed-up life your living right now. Just look at the positive, you're going to be a Mom and you will succeed. My sister had a baby at 14 and it was the best thing that ever happened to her. Almost the same story as yours. She changed her life, became self-sufficient and has a wonderful 23 year-old son. Find other women/girls that are in your same predicament, and build from there, let the craziness go, and always believe in yourself.
58
Loveschild, I'm not sure why you're always on this blog. Maybe you feel you're "defending marriage", maybe you just like reading about sex.
This is obvious to me, but it's possible you don't realize this:
Marriage has to be between consenting adults.
A pet cannot consent, so bestiality's out (thank goodness)
In terms of incest and polygamy. As Dan has said, we will debate them on their own terms.
But Spain, Belgium, South Africa, Canada, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands all have gay marriage and, as far as I know, there have not been attempts (or success) in these countries by groups who want to make incest or polygamy legal.
This is obvious to me, but it's possible you don't realize this:
Marriage has to be between consenting adults.
A pet cannot consent, so bestiality's out (thank goodness)
In terms of incest and polygamy. As Dan has said, we will debate them on their own terms.
But Spain, Belgium, South Africa, Canada, Sweden, Norway, and the Netherlands all have gay marriage and, as far as I know, there have not been attempts (or success) in these countries by groups who want to make incest or polygamy legal.
59
I was at a straight wedding this past weekend and that same bit was included in their ceremony. It was very nice to hear.
60
I'd just like to note that there are plenty of gay-identifying FTMs (FTMs who are interested in men). As a gay transman myself, I find it very intimidating to break into the queer scene, especially when I'm looking for a romantic partner or a date, in no small part due to many negative reactions from bio gay men. Not to say that all bio gay men are unreceptive of transmen, but once you've had even one sufficiently negative or scary experience, it does tend to make you a little intimidated. I wish I had enough trans friends to clump in a group like that -- it sure would be a confidence boost.
61
Thanks for including the Massachusetts Supreme Court reading. I officated a wedding here in Madison about a month ago, and used that reading, and it was a big hit. It's a beautiful passage, and it would be fantastic if it became incorporated into more and more weddings.
62
I'm getting married in a few weeks' time, and fully intend to rip off that rad wedding reading. We'll be having a blend of Canadian folks and American folks-some of which are straight, some not, some uber religious. Said uber religious folks will damn well hear those words-and more-at my wedding. Why? Because they need to, if only in little needle jabs on my big day.
~Big fan from Canada in Austin
p.s. donations to the Maine cause already made-so glad its been printed/pointed out!
~Big fan from Canada in Austin
p.s. donations to the Maine cause already made-so glad its been printed/pointed out!
65
"A pet cannot consent, so bestiality's out (thank goodness)"
I dunno, I've seen dogs that appear to love to lick EVERYTHING, I don't really like dogs but I can't imagine there exists not a single dog in the entire world that spontaneously decides to like it's naked owner. Pretty sure that'd be consent on the dog's part, maybe not the owners, lol. And cat's purr. Possibly not up to par to commercial vibrators, but pretty sure as long as it's purring it's not complaining.
Anyway, this is party for those of you who were complaining this thread was too kink-less ;)
I dunno, I've seen dogs that appear to love to lick EVERYTHING, I don't really like dogs but I can't imagine there exists not a single dog in the entire world that spontaneously decides to like it's naked owner. Pretty sure that'd be consent on the dog's part, maybe not the owners, lol. And cat's purr. Possibly not up to par to commercial vibrators, but pretty sure as long as it's purring it's not complaining.
Anyway, this is party for those of you who were complaining this thread was too kink-less ;)
66
Myycinderella - You come across as rambling, seem seriously messed up, and are probably not mature enough to be a mother. Either give up the baby or have an abortion. If you are or have been seriously into drugs or alcohol, particularly during your pregnancy, then you've put your baby's health and future at risk. This may seem cruel, but not if you've had anything to do with children who suffered from fetal alcohol syndrome or prenatal drug abuse.
67
Myycinderella You come across as rambling. If you've been seriously into drugs or alcohol, get the fetus checked out for fetal alcohol syndrome and drug related problems.
68
Justme: Just curious, are you okay with an incestuous marriage between a parent and their child? Freud would have a field day.
69
@a skeptic,
if the parent weren't that much older (teen parent) and the child were adopted as an infant, why not?
But once you've been an authority figure in shaping a child's world, nope, sexual access is never ethical ever after.
if the parent weren't that much older (teen parent) and the child were adopted as an infant, why not?
But once you've been an authority figure in shaping a child's world, nope, sexual access is never ethical ever after.
70
Mycinderella, one word: "ADOPTION." Please. If you are seriously concerned about this one boy who you like, but are super duper in love with your ex who won't call you back.... and that's what you choose to focus on when you are PREGNANT, you are obviously not mature enough to be a mom (at least not right now). There are so very many women who are mature, ready, capable, and desperate to be mothers, but who can't. Please, please, please let one of them give your baby the parenting she deserves. Then you can go back to worrying about boys and give yourself a chance to grow up before giving the parenting thing a shot when you are more capable and grown up.
71
I had that quote at the end of my wedding ceremony, in part to explain that the wedding everyone was attending meant nothing because WA doesn't recognize gay marriage. We deleted it from our Canadian ceremony though because it would be like preaching to the choir. We're giving money to Yes on 71 and I'll be sure to send some to Maine too.
72
I am real.
This is happening to me.
I'm not specific because I don't want to mention names.
Man who got me pregnant:Eddy.
Man I'm currently around: Andrew.
Druggie: Nate.
And for the record, I don't talk to the druggie unless he talks to me first, and even then he judges me and my life.
I'm not full of myself because if you knew me, you'd know, I'm shy, vulnerable, gullible, weak and very VERY self- concious.
My ex is just someone I met in school, we dated for a year, but before then we were friends for a year. I thought Eddy was a good guy, but it turned out he was just another guy who'd hurt me.
Andrew's sweet, he doesn't do drugs, or any of that.
I'm ready for my child, I know how to raise them.
That isn't my problem, I only mentioned it because it is relevant to my problem.
Andrew doesn't know I'm pregnant and I'm scared if he knows, he'll walk away from me.
So please, I'd appreciate if you really did NOT insist I'm full of myself, or lying.
Because I'm not, I would never lie about anything like this in my life.
I just want to know,
what do I do about Andrew and Eddy?
The druggy is not in this anymore.
I mentioned HIM because that's what I talked to Andrew about. That's what got him upset with me in the first place.
Thank you guys so much for responding.
I appreciate it.
Myycinderella AKA
Shelby.
This is happening to me.
I'm not specific because I don't want to mention names.
Man who got me pregnant:Eddy.
Man I'm currently around: Andrew.
Druggie: Nate.
And for the record, I don't talk to the druggie unless he talks to me first, and even then he judges me and my life.
I'm not full of myself because if you knew me, you'd know, I'm shy, vulnerable, gullible, weak and very VERY self- concious.
My ex is just someone I met in school, we dated for a year, but before then we were friends for a year. I thought Eddy was a good guy, but it turned out he was just another guy who'd hurt me.
Andrew's sweet, he doesn't do drugs, or any of that.
I'm ready for my child, I know how to raise them.
That isn't my problem, I only mentioned it because it is relevant to my problem.
Andrew doesn't know I'm pregnant and I'm scared if he knows, he'll walk away from me.
So please, I'd appreciate if you really did NOT insist I'm full of myself, or lying.
Because I'm not, I would never lie about anything like this in my life.
I just want to know,
what do I do about Andrew and Eddy?
The druggy is not in this anymore.
I mentioned HIM because that's what I talked to Andrew about. That's what got him upset with me in the first place.
Thank you guys so much for responding.
I appreciate it.
Myycinderella AKA
Shelby.
73
Don't tell me abortion.
You sick SICK people.
I'm against abortion.
Totally and completely, I've NEVER been into drugs, or alcohol.
I'm not rambling.
But it's hard to tell the WHOLE thing without sounding like I'm saying TOO much.
Adoption is also out of the question.
I'm not immature, I'm ready for this child.
I've practically been a mother anyways because I've raised my siblings.
I currently have a 7 month old sister I raise myself.
So please, keep your mouth shut.
I need advice, so I'm asking.
Andrew told me he might help,
but it isn't HIS responsibility.
It's EDDY'S.
I can do this on my own if I have to,
I just want some input on who I should choose,
I know Andrew would be great, BUT I want the real father to help.
And if you can honestly say abortion without knowing my beliefs or religion, then you are cynical and cold.
Next time, PLEASE ask someone their beliefs before you go TELLING them to get an abortion.
Thank you.
Good day.
You sick SICK people.
I'm against abortion.
Totally and completely, I've NEVER been into drugs, or alcohol.
I'm not rambling.
But it's hard to tell the WHOLE thing without sounding like I'm saying TOO much.
Adoption is also out of the question.
I'm not immature, I'm ready for this child.
I've practically been a mother anyways because I've raised my siblings.
I currently have a 7 month old sister I raise myself.
So please, keep your mouth shut.
I need advice, so I'm asking.
Andrew told me he might help,
but it isn't HIS responsibility.
It's EDDY'S.
I can do this on my own if I have to,
I just want some input on who I should choose,
I know Andrew would be great, BUT I want the real father to help.
And if you can honestly say abortion without knowing my beliefs or religion, then you are cynical and cold.
Next time, PLEASE ask someone their beliefs before you go TELLING them to get an abortion.
Thank you.
Good day.
74
Mycinderella/Shelby, dear, you missed the point. These guys are irrelevant to your life right now, you are going to become a mother. Think of what's best for your child. Is it a guy who doesn't care enough to call and who would potentially walk away from a single mother? What are you going to do if he does leave when he finds out you're pregnant? You are worrying about the wrong thing. The only question you should be asking yourself, "Is this person/situation going to be good for us (you and the baby)?"
75
no one *told* you to get an abortion. They said you do NOT sound like good mother material, and actually, they're right. You're raising your sister? Why, where's HER mom? Exactly where DID you learn this *maturity* anyway? From the absent mother of THAT baby? Yeah, sounds like wonderful training.
Frankly, if you are simply dismissing as *out of the question* any consideration of abortion, or for that matter, and for some unfathomable reason, adoption, than I kinda question whether you are objectively measuring the quality of life your child will have if you choose to bring it into your world.
Plus, I have yet to figure out how you can tell someone to shut their mouth and yet still ask them to give you advice in the same comment without sounding leotarded.
If you insist on keeping the child for whatever religious beliefs you have, than get child support money from the real father. And relationship wise, be independent. There's no big magical white knight figure out there in the world to come swooping in and fix your problems for you (there isn't any invisible daddy in the sky to fix your messes either but that's a separate issue). Men aren't magic fairies you have to have in your life at all times, and certainly aren't your biggest concern right now. You need financial support for the child's sake, hence the child support, but apart from that, stay out of drama.
Frankly, if you are simply dismissing as *out of the question* any consideration of abortion, or for that matter, and for some unfathomable reason, adoption, than I kinda question whether you are objectively measuring the quality of life your child will have if you choose to bring it into your world.
Plus, I have yet to figure out how you can tell someone to shut their mouth and yet still ask them to give you advice in the same comment without sounding leotarded.
If you insist on keeping the child for whatever religious beliefs you have, than get child support money from the real father. And relationship wise, be independent. There's no big magical white knight figure out there in the world to come swooping in and fix your problems for you (there isn't any invisible daddy in the sky to fix your messes either but that's a separate issue). Men aren't magic fairies you have to have in your life at all times, and certainly aren't your biggest concern right now. You need financial support for the child's sake, hence the child support, but apart from that, stay out of drama.
76
I refuse to believe that I'm the only one thinking this, but if you're a straight couple who wants to get married, but wants to also register your protest to anti-same-sex marriage... why not go get married in one of the few states that allow same-sex marriage or at least civil unions, or one of the countries that do (like our neighbors to the north).
Your marriage will be recognized everywhere (since it's an opposite one), and you'll be giving your marriage business to the places that respect equality. Think of it as helping to put Loveschild (@42) out of work.
Your marriage will be recognized everywhere (since it's an opposite one), and you'll be giving your marriage business to the places that respect equality. Think of it as helping to put Loveschild (@42) out of work.
77
Mycinderella: Sorry. No excuse. Just a really rough day at work deailng with the ED/CD/LD offspring of too many people who didn't take responsibility for their sexuality before hand and should never have become parents. Very depressing and I often feel despair about the tragic future faced by many of these kids. School systems have become the dumping ground for irresponsible people's mistakes. Your choice in men/sex partners shows a lack of good judgment. What kind of role model are you going to be? Special needs kids are often a challenge that exceed the capacity of even the most mature and competent of people.
78
Mycinderella: Sperm damaged by alcohol or drug use can also result in damaged babies. How much do you about Eddy's use. Glad to hear you are clean and sober. Usually belief systems and religions that are absolutely anti-abortion also have strong moral strictures against sex before and outside of marriage and casual sex in general. Are you being selective with respect to the tenets of your religion. Your quandry about mate selection should have been resolved before you became pregnant.
79
I already know Eddy uses none of it.
And no,
Eddy knows about the baby.
I thought I had a miscarriage and he heard about that, but this weekend I got an ultra-sound and the doctor told me the little girl is still healthy.
I'm a great role model.
I'm not CHOOSING any guy okay?
I want to know if I should tell Andrew or not.
Because at this moment in time, I'm very high risk,
I've had three other pregnancies, all ending in miscarriage before the end of the first trimester.
Not because of drug use, or alcohol.
But because I did not get the proper treatment in time, seeing as how I found out I was pregnant right before it happened.
And had no time to get checked.
Thank you very much I suppose for judging me without even knowing.
I raise my sister because my Mother works.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
She's ALSO a single mother, now raising five, her eldest moved out.
And I have to care for the child while my mother's working.
Which is all the time, plus when the other kids get out of school I care for them.
It isn't that she left, it's that she's trying to SUPPORT us with MONEY.
Why don't you get a clue before assuming she left us.
She's a single mother, not a monster.
I'm not a monster either.
I've raised children since I was 5 when my brother was born.
I've been around them longer.
I babysit for other parents as well and they tell me their children loved having me watch them.
You don't know me, so how could you even have a SINGLE clue whether or not I'd be a good mother.
Also, I'm against abortion not because of religion, but because it is murder.
I don't have a religion, but that does not mean other people don't.
I was simply stating that you should answer based on peoples beliefs and religions.
Or ask them their stands before just snapping out something as appauling as abortion.
More...
And no,
Eddy knows about the baby.
I thought I had a miscarriage and he heard about that, but this weekend I got an ultra-sound and the doctor told me the little girl is still healthy.
I'm a great role model.
I'm not CHOOSING any guy okay?
I want to know if I should tell Andrew or not.
Because at this moment in time, I'm very high risk,
I've had three other pregnancies, all ending in miscarriage before the end of the first trimester.
Not because of drug use, or alcohol.
But because I did not get the proper treatment in time, seeing as how I found out I was pregnant right before it happened.
And had no time to get checked.
Thank you very much I suppose for judging me without even knowing.
I raise my sister because my Mother works.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
She's ALSO a single mother, now raising five, her eldest moved out.
And I have to care for the child while my mother's working.
Which is all the time, plus when the other kids get out of school I care for them.
It isn't that she left, it's that she's trying to SUPPORT us with MONEY.
Why don't you get a clue before assuming she left us.
She's a single mother, not a monster.
I'm not a monster either.
I've raised children since I was 5 when my brother was born.
I've been around them longer.
I babysit for other parents as well and they tell me their children loved having me watch them.
You don't know me, so how could you even have a SINGLE clue whether or not I'd be a good mother.
Also, I'm against abortion not because of religion, but because it is murder.
I don't have a religion, but that does not mean other people don't.
I was simply stating that you should answer based on peoples beliefs and religions.
Or ask them their stands before just snapping out something as appauling as abortion.
80
mycinderella: Tell Andrew. A: He's going to know in a couple of months anyway and be pissed that you didn't tell him. B: If it scares him off, good riddance. This sort of thing is the ultimate test of how good a guy is. If he's outta there, you'll find someone better.
81
Dan - regarding your suggestion to HTRC:
A friend recently threw an engagement party celebrating his upcoming nuptials, and asked guests to make a donation to the Maine Equality campaign in lieu of gifts, noting that they'd rather have $10 going to the campaign than a bottle of wine or some other such thing.
The part you didn't mention:
The campaign website even allows you to set up event-specific or personal donation pages, which can be done here.
A friend recently threw an engagement party celebrating his upcoming nuptials, and asked guests to make a donation to the Maine Equality campaign in lieu of gifts, noting that they'd rather have $10 going to the campaign than a bottle of wine or some other such thing.
The part you didn't mention:
The campaign website even allows you to set up event-specific or personal donation pages, which can be done here.
82
Mycinderella, the only murder here is the one you commit on common sense every time you open your mouth.
83
myycinderella:
Just tell Andrew already. He's going to figure it out anyway because pretty soon you'll have a big fat pregnant belly.
This is your FOURTH pregnancy?!? Why the heck didn't you use birth control?
Are you sure it wouldn't be best for your child to be adopted by a loving family? Your single mom is already working to support you and your siblings; does she need another mouth to feed?
Men and dating are obviously important to you, and having this baby will put your dating life on hold for a long, long time. If someone else adopts the baby you can focus on finding a good partner who will be a wonderful father to your future children.
And I'm sure you're a very good babysitter, but caring for a child and raising your own child are two very different things. Are you sure you're ready?
Just tell Andrew already. He's going to figure it out anyway because pretty soon you'll have a big fat pregnant belly.
This is your FOURTH pregnancy?!? Why the heck didn't you use birth control?
Are you sure it wouldn't be best for your child to be adopted by a loving family? Your single mom is already working to support you and your siblings; does she need another mouth to feed?
Men and dating are obviously important to you, and having this baby will put your dating life on hold for a long, long time. If someone else adopts the baby you can focus on finding a good partner who will be a wonderful father to your future children.
And I'm sure you're a very good babysitter, but caring for a child and raising your own child are two very different things. Are you sure you're ready?
84
Hey, Mycinderella,
It's pretty clear to me that you want to have and keep this baby, so I'm not going to say anything about that. Plus, you're under the care of a doctor, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the reason you're not worried about the pregnancy is that you have it completely under control, leaving you plenty of time to worry about boys.
So, your boy problems:
Nate - stop talking to, or about, him. Some boys won't take no for an answer until you just cut them out of your life. And having some clingy drug addict hanging around (or constantly coming up in conversations) won't be good for your baby or your relationships.
Eddy - is clearly not interested in continuing to date you. You call him your ex, you say he cheated on you, he ignores you for days at a time despite the fact that you're carrying his child. He sounds pretty irresponsible, and you need to get over him. However, he seems like he might be interested in being involved with his child's life, and if you want to encourage that, you should. At the very least, you should make him pay child support.
Andrew - Yes! Tell him you're pregnant! I mean, he's going to figure it out pretty soon, right? When you have a baby bump, and then a baby? Maybe he'll get scared away. But he's going to get scared away now, when you tell him, or later when he figures it out himself. And maybe he'll appreciate your honesty. Are you sure you want to date him? He sounds kinda emo and needy, if he responds to you telling him you like him with "Sometimes you act like you don't."
It's pretty clear to me that you want to have and keep this baby, so I'm not going to say anything about that. Plus, you're under the care of a doctor, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the reason you're not worried about the pregnancy is that you have it completely under control, leaving you plenty of time to worry about boys.
So, your boy problems:
Nate - stop talking to, or about, him. Some boys won't take no for an answer until you just cut them out of your life. And having some clingy drug addict hanging around (or constantly coming up in conversations) won't be good for your baby or your relationships.
Eddy - is clearly not interested in continuing to date you. You call him your ex, you say he cheated on you, he ignores you for days at a time despite the fact that you're carrying his child. He sounds pretty irresponsible, and you need to get over him. However, he seems like he might be interested in being involved with his child's life, and if you want to encourage that, you should. At the very least, you should make him pay child support.
Andrew - Yes! Tell him you're pregnant! I mean, he's going to figure it out pretty soon, right? When you have a baby bump, and then a baby? Maybe he'll get scared away. But he's going to get scared away now, when you tell him, or later when he figures it out himself. And maybe he'll appreciate your honesty. Are you sure you want to date him? He sounds kinda emo and needy, if he responds to you telling him you like him with "Sometimes you act like you don't."
85
In post 73, Mycinderella said "Andrew told me he might help,
but it isn't HIS responsibility.
It's EDDY'S." which contradicts the rest of her posts saying that Andrew doesn't know.
Troll.
but it isn't HIS responsibility.
It's EDDY'S." which contradicts the rest of her posts saying that Andrew doesn't know.
Troll.
86
Mycinderella (troll or not) If abortion is murder, then God murders at least 40%, perhaps as many as 75%, of all persons before they even get to have a face.
If abortion is murder, every miscarriage must be investigated as a homicide for possible manslaughter prosecution.
If abortion is murder, since a woman can be pregnant without knowing she's pregnant, not only is it reckless endangerment for a woman of childbearing years to consume alcohol, it is furthermore criminal reckless endangerment to serve a woman who could be pregnant alcohol.
Clearly, if abortion is murder, it is fundamentally unjust to punish anyone for anything, The whole idea of crime and punishment crumbles.
That being said, if you don't want to have an abortion, don't. It's your choice, after all.
If abortion is murder, every miscarriage must be investigated as a homicide for possible manslaughter prosecution.
If abortion is murder, since a woman can be pregnant without knowing she's pregnant, not only is it reckless endangerment for a woman of childbearing years to consume alcohol, it is furthermore criminal reckless endangerment to serve a woman who could be pregnant alcohol.
Clearly, if abortion is murder, it is fundamentally unjust to punish anyone for anything, The whole idea of crime and punishment crumbles.
That being said, if you don't want to have an abortion, don't. It's your choice, after all.
87
I told him before I knew, that I thought I was.
Don't call me a troll.
I do have the pregnancy under control.
I just want a father figure in this child's life.
Is that such a HUGE problem?
And the men in my life SHOULD and do need to know.
So do my friends and family.
I told him I wasn't when I thought I miscarried, so now I have to tell him that I am.
He said he'd help before when I told him I might be even though I said he didn't have to and I didn't want him to support us.
I have means of support also,
Eddy's mom told me I could move in there.
And I have a job and make okay money.
That isn't the problem.
If I cannot take care of the baby after I give birth however, I will take control and put it up for adoption.
But I am willing to try, abortion is sick.
Have you seen pictures?
And videos.
It is murder.
And to the one who said I commited murder everytime I opened my mouth and posted,
no.
I'm stating my issues, and it is up to me how I state them.
Unless you somehow know me personally, don't open YOUR mouth about this.
Also,
I did use birth control and condoms.
After the 2nd pregnancy, I had the NuvaRing implanted.
That, however, did not work somehow.
We still used condoms.
And to state another fact, me and Eddy were in a relationship, currently engaged to be married.
All in all, I can and will raise this child on my own.
Without my mother's support.
I have my own means, I just would like some kind of father figure in this child's life.
Because a mother cannot replace a father, I should and do know.
It is not easy to grow up knowing that your father didn't give a damn, or that you could have had one but your mother decided to keep you from him.
Even if the man doesn't support us(which I will be fine with)I want someone there who will support her emotionally and visit her from time to time.
It will help her in the long run, emotionally, and mentally.
She will not feel like she was abandoned and will be able to know what a father is.
That is all I want.
Thank you for judging me and my values, my mother, my family, and my mothering abilities.
I know you're answering from experience or from your own thoughts.
And I appreciate it.
But could you PLEASE just be a little more sensitive.
Shelby.
More...
Don't call me a troll.
I do have the pregnancy under control.
I just want a father figure in this child's life.
Is that such a HUGE problem?
And the men in my life SHOULD and do need to know.
So do my friends and family.
I told him I wasn't when I thought I miscarried, so now I have to tell him that I am.
He said he'd help before when I told him I might be even though I said he didn't have to and I didn't want him to support us.
I have means of support also,
Eddy's mom told me I could move in there.
And I have a job and make okay money.
That isn't the problem.
If I cannot take care of the baby after I give birth however, I will take control and put it up for adoption.
But I am willing to try, abortion is sick.
Have you seen pictures?
And videos.
It is murder.
And to the one who said I commited murder everytime I opened my mouth and posted,
no.
I'm stating my issues, and it is up to me how I state them.
Unless you somehow know me personally, don't open YOUR mouth about this.
Also,
I did use birth control and condoms.
After the 2nd pregnancy, I had the NuvaRing implanted.
That, however, did not work somehow.
We still used condoms.
And to state another fact, me and Eddy were in a relationship, currently engaged to be married.
All in all, I can and will raise this child on my own.
Without my mother's support.
I have my own means, I just would like some kind of father figure in this child's life.
Because a mother cannot replace a father, I should and do know.
It is not easy to grow up knowing that your father didn't give a damn, or that you could have had one but your mother decided to keep you from him.
Even if the man doesn't support us(which I will be fine with)I want someone there who will support her emotionally and visit her from time to time.
It will help her in the long run, emotionally, and mentally.
She will not feel like she was abandoned and will be able to know what a father is.
That is all I want.
Thank you for judging me and my values, my mother, my family, and my mothering abilities.
I know you're answering from experience or from your own thoughts.
And I appreciate it.
But could you PLEASE just be a little more sensitive.
Shelby.
88
You want a "father figure" in its life but you don't care who it is? That's not very mature. "Visit her from time to time" is not a good description of fatherhood. And if you're using multiple forms of birth control and they're not working, you're doing something wrong. You're talking about living with your mom.
It is painfully obvious that you are not ready for motherhood. But then, no one ever is. But your situation seems apt to produce a messed-up out-of-control kid. Good luck.
It is painfully obvious that you are not ready for motherhood. But then, no one ever is. But your situation seems apt to produce a messed-up out-of-control kid. Good luck.
89
"After the 2nd pregnancy, I had the NuvaRing implanted.
That, however, did not work somehow."
I can imagine how the NuvaRing didn't work - being that it doesn't get implanted... You're supposed to change it every month. If it is somehow still in your body go to a ER *now*.
That, however, did not work somehow."
I can imagine how the NuvaRing didn't work - being that it doesn't get implanted... You're supposed to change it every month. If it is somehow still in your body go to a ER *now*.
90
I do not want to be labeled a troll.
I just want to get my point across.
I have means of support, a place to live and people willing to help.
My mother will not be supporting me in any way except emotionally.
Eddy's mother offered me a place to stay and I accepted.
As for the men?
I just want someone who can be there for my little Hayley.
As she grows, she'll need someone.
I will not accept their money,
I will, however, accept their love.
Hayley will need someone there to help her grow emotionally, and mentally.
Andrew might be able to do that.
Whether it's him or not, I'm not sure.
But someone needs to be a father to her.
It cannot be me because no matter what anyone says or believes, a Mother cannot replace a father.
I went my whole life without a father figure because he wanted nothing to do with me.
I do not want that for her.
If it isn't Eddy who's there, then so be it.
But someone needs to be.
And I wanted to know,
if I should tell Andrew and risk him walking away.
I have my pregnancy and my situation under control.
But I'm stuck.
Between, a broken heart and a guy who I'm not sure about.
I want Eddy to be there for Hayley,
but Andrew I can trust.
When me and Eddy had sex, I had the NuvaRing and we used condoms.
Neither are 100% effective, so therefore, I was responsible,
we were engaged and having safe sex.
It isn't like I run around having sex with everyone I know without protection of any kind.
I've only EVER had safe sex and with people I am in relationships with.
Thank you,
Shelby.
I just want to get my point across.
I have means of support, a place to live and people willing to help.
My mother will not be supporting me in any way except emotionally.
Eddy's mother offered me a place to stay and I accepted.
As for the men?
I just want someone who can be there for my little Hayley.
As she grows, she'll need someone.
I will not accept their money,
I will, however, accept their love.
Hayley will need someone there to help her grow emotionally, and mentally.
Andrew might be able to do that.
Whether it's him or not, I'm not sure.
But someone needs to be a father to her.
It cannot be me because no matter what anyone says or believes, a Mother cannot replace a father.
I went my whole life without a father figure because he wanted nothing to do with me.
I do not want that for her.
If it isn't Eddy who's there, then so be it.
But someone needs to be.
And I wanted to know,
if I should tell Andrew and risk him walking away.
I have my pregnancy and my situation under control.
But I'm stuck.
Between, a broken heart and a guy who I'm not sure about.
I want Eddy to be there for Hayley,
but Andrew I can trust.
When me and Eddy had sex, I had the NuvaRing and we used condoms.
Neither are 100% effective, so therefore, I was responsible,
we were engaged and having safe sex.
It isn't like I run around having sex with everyone I know without protection of any kind.
I've only EVER had safe sex and with people I am in relationships with.
Thank you,
Shelby.
91
Shelby,
If you wanted people to be sensitive, this was the wrong place to ask for advice. Seriously. But you also can't ask for input, and then get mad because commenters don't "somehow know [you] personally" and give you advice that doesn't jive with your values. When you solicit advice from strangers, them's the breaks.
I would like to say that, just because you make an awesome babysitter and are really good with kids, and you've contributed to the rearing of your own siblings, doesn't mean that you are ready to be a mother. I'm not saying you aren't, because I don't know you personally, of course, but it's been my observation that women who say, "Oh! I'm so ready to have a baby! I'm totally prepared for this! It's gonna be awesome!" are typically the ones who are wrong. It's the mothers-to-be who are filled with fear, self-doubt, and mild panic who turn out to be the best parents. So don't go resting on your laurels just yet. If you're going to keep this child, then you've got a lot of work ahead of you.
Let me ask, do you have a father figure? You say your mother is a single mother, so I just wonder what your experience has been with fathers. I ask because you seem so committed to providing your child with a daddy-type, but you're limiting yourself to these lousy options. You're not even sure if that Andrew chump will stick around after you tell him you're pregnant. Douche. You and your baby deserve better than that (and you should believe that's true), and I promise that if you're selective and smart about it, you can find a non-douchey man to be a partner to you and a father figure for your child.
Anyway. It sounds to me like you've made up your mind and you just want someone to tell you you're doing the right thing. Or, you're asking us (a bunch of strangers) to help you make a tough decision for you. Either way, your approach is flawed and I feel sorry for you.
More...
If you wanted people to be sensitive, this was the wrong place to ask for advice. Seriously. But you also can't ask for input, and then get mad because commenters don't "somehow know [you] personally" and give you advice that doesn't jive with your values. When you solicit advice from strangers, them's the breaks.
I would like to say that, just because you make an awesome babysitter and are really good with kids, and you've contributed to the rearing of your own siblings, doesn't mean that you are ready to be a mother. I'm not saying you aren't, because I don't know you personally, of course, but it's been my observation that women who say, "Oh! I'm so ready to have a baby! I'm totally prepared for this! It's gonna be awesome!" are typically the ones who are wrong. It's the mothers-to-be who are filled with fear, self-doubt, and mild panic who turn out to be the best parents. So don't go resting on your laurels just yet. If you're going to keep this child, then you've got a lot of work ahead of you.
Let me ask, do you have a father figure? You say your mother is a single mother, so I just wonder what your experience has been with fathers. I ask because you seem so committed to providing your child with a daddy-type, but you're limiting yourself to these lousy options. You're not even sure if that Andrew chump will stick around after you tell him you're pregnant. Douche. You and your baby deserve better than that (and you should believe that's true), and I promise that if you're selective and smart about it, you can find a non-douchey man to be a partner to you and a father figure for your child.
Anyway. It sounds to me like you've made up your mind and you just want someone to tell you you're doing the right thing. Or, you're asking us (a bunch of strangers) to help you make a tough decision for you. Either way, your approach is flawed and I feel sorry for you.
92
I know it isn't implanted.
And I'm doing everything correct.
I am ready for motherhood.
I just simply want to find someone who is willing to give his time for my child and not just to see me and ignore her.
I've had it changed, I'm not stupid.
The only word I can find to describe it was implant.
Even the doctor used that word.
So it isn't like I'M the one who decided to use it.
HE chose that word and that form of birth control.
My child will not be a brat.
In anyway.
My siblings and I are quite far from being bratty or out-of-control.
They are all smart, quiet, and good listeners.
Even Ana is a good child.
I don't honestly want to hear your analizations of my mothering skills.
I do want to hear what you have to say of what to say to Andrew.
This is all I need.
Tell me, and I will be gone.
Because I have everything else under control.
And I'm doing everything correct.
I am ready for motherhood.
I just simply want to find someone who is willing to give his time for my child and not just to see me and ignore her.
I've had it changed, I'm not stupid.
The only word I can find to describe it was implant.
Even the doctor used that word.
So it isn't like I'M the one who decided to use it.
HE chose that word and that form of birth control.
My child will not be a brat.
In anyway.
My siblings and I are quite far from being bratty or out-of-control.
They are all smart, quiet, and good listeners.
Even Ana is a good child.
I don't honestly want to hear your analizations of my mothering skills.
I do want to hear what you have to say of what to say to Andrew.
This is all I need.
Tell me, and I will be gone.
Because I have everything else under control.
94
@myycinderella
You said you had the NuvaRing implanted. Did you know that you have to change it once a month? If you've had three pregnancies with condom use - try going to your nearest Planned Parenthood and ask a sex counselor for advice on how to properly use the condoms and on other forms of birth control for the future.
You said you had the NuvaRing implanted. Did you know that you have to change it once a month? If you've had three pregnancies with condom use - try going to your nearest Planned Parenthood and ask a sex counselor for advice on how to properly use the condoms and on other forms of birth control for the future.
95
I am not asking that.
I know we deserve better.
I am excited but I know it won't be peaches and cream.
My father was horrible.
He barely ever saw us.
He didn't give a damn about me or my older sister until three years ago when he decided to play ME as a pawn in a game he wanted to play.
Against my mother, which was the wrong thing to do.
He let us down, time after time.
I got sick of it.
He even left us sitting up all night on halloween, Christmas and countless other night.
We were only little children.
Our mother had to go to school during the nights, so while we waited we were with our grandparents.
We almost never saw him.
He got drunk constantly and left us with her.
Then told the judge and everyone else she was a horrible mother to us.
I grew up feeling like I meant NOTHING.
Since I was 14, I made up my mind.
When I have a child, I will choose carefully who the father will be.
And I will not let them grow up without one.
Whether the two of us are married or not, they will not grow up feeling like they meant nothing.
I don't want you to make a decision.
I want to know if I should tell Andrew or not.
And what to do about Eddy.
I'm going to live with HIS mother after Hayley is born.
We will be well provided for and I will provide also.
I will go to college and get a decent career.
Then, we will move out on our own and continue to live.
If I cannot support her in any way after she is born,
adoption will be considered.
And I will most likely go through with it.
But only if I have given it an honest try and CANNOT give her the proper home life she deserves.
I know we deserve better.
I am excited but I know it won't be peaches and cream.
My father was horrible.
He barely ever saw us.
He didn't give a damn about me or my older sister until three years ago when he decided to play ME as a pawn in a game he wanted to play.
Against my mother, which was the wrong thing to do.
He let us down, time after time.
I got sick of it.
He even left us sitting up all night on halloween, Christmas and countless other night.
We were only little children.
Our mother had to go to school during the nights, so while we waited we were with our grandparents.
We almost never saw him.
He got drunk constantly and left us with her.
Then told the judge and everyone else she was a horrible mother to us.
I grew up feeling like I meant NOTHING.
Since I was 14, I made up my mind.
When I have a child, I will choose carefully who the father will be.
And I will not let them grow up without one.
Whether the two of us are married or not, they will not grow up feeling like they meant nothing.
I don't want you to make a decision.
I want to know if I should tell Andrew or not.
And what to do about Eddy.
I'm going to live with HIS mother after Hayley is born.
We will be well provided for and I will provide also.
I will go to college and get a decent career.
Then, we will move out on our own and continue to live.
If I cannot support her in any way after she is born,
adoption will be considered.
And I will most likely go through with it.
But only if I have given it an honest try and CANNOT give her the proper home life she deserves.
96
Tell the doctor to do homework.
HE used the word implant.
Honestly,
have you NOT read what I've written?
I asked him how it worked and he said, "We will implant the NuvaRing inside of you, once a month it will be changed. But to prevent further pregnancies, use condoms also."
I am not a troll, or stupid.
Doctors aren't perfect either.
I know how to use a condom.
HE used the word implant.
Honestly,
have you NOT read what I've written?
I asked him how it worked and he said, "We will implant the NuvaRing inside of you, once a month it will be changed. But to prevent further pregnancies, use condoms also."
I am not a troll, or stupid.
Doctors aren't perfect either.
I know how to use a condom.
97
I came out in 9th grade to everyone I know after I experienced my first crush on a girl (except to the girl of course). It almost seems like nobody listened because a decade later I'll run into an old high school friend or someone and they'll, for some unknown reason, find themselves in matchmaker mode and I'll need to remind them that I'm still a lesbian. I don't regret coming out so early but sometimes I think if I waited it might actually take. Instead I feel like I'm still coming out now and may just be for the rest of my life.
98
One gets pregnant very, very rarely when using condoms properly. That it should happen three times, while also using other birth control methods is beyond dubious. Especially since you are most likely still a teenager. Statistically, you would have to have had sex tens of thousands of times to win that lottery. You're lying. If you want advice (and you are anonymous), it helps to be forthright with information so that it's clear you're not a troll.
What to do? Tell Andrew (and everyone else, since you've ruled out abortion), but don't commit to anyone. Date. When the right man comes along (or Andrew proves himself), then cross that bridge. Really reconsider adoption. It's a generous and selfless thing to do.
What to do? Tell Andrew (and everyone else, since you've ruled out abortion), but don't commit to anyone. Date. When the right man comes along (or Andrew proves himself), then cross that bridge. Really reconsider adoption. It's a generous and selfless thing to do.
99
One gets pregnant very, very rarely when using condoms properly. That it should happen three times, while also using other birth control methods is beyond dubious. Especially since you are most likely still a teenager. Statistically, you would have to have had sex tens of thousands of times to win that lottery. You're lying. If you want advice (and you are anonymous), it helps to be forthright with information so that it's clear you're not a troll.
What to do? Tell Andrew (and everyone else, since you've ruled out abortion), but don't commit to anyone. Date. When the right man comes along (or Andrew proves himself), then cross that bridge. Really reconsider adoption. It's a generous and selfless thing to do.
What to do? Tell Andrew (and everyone else, since you've ruled out abortion), but don't commit to anyone. Date. When the right man comes along (or Andrew proves himself), then cross that bridge. Really reconsider adoption. It's a generous and selfless thing to do.
100
Oh, boy. Shelby, I, too, was raised without a father. I understand that a lot of it sucks.
HOWEVER, I found that a damn-determined mother and family she could trust was all I needed. I'm GLAD that I went fatherless, because it made me closer to my mother and she would push away people who were not perfect for her "father-figure." I'm sorry you were raised in that you feel Mom+Dad is the ONLY good way to raise a "productive member of society."
Having safe-sex, or as safe as you could manage, was good of you. But Sex, while entertaining and full of physical and emotional benefits, IS NOT REQUIRED. I could tell you that maybe you SHOULD-HAVE stopped having intercourse at least for a period of time (there are other things couples can do, mutual masturbation, oral, dry-humping (with clothes on) to prove that you were mature enough to have learned from those other lost babies.
However, telling you what you SHOULD-HAVE done can't help you now. So. What do you do now?
Listen. Seriously. Set yourself up for baby. Try to get a job (I know the economy is tough and pregnancy makes some jobs difficult and you're already a babysitter, but you need to TRY) and/or finish school. LOTS OF PREGNANT WOMEN MANAGE THIS. You can, too.
Allow yourself to go on dates. But don't worry about a father figure AT THIS TIME. I agree with a previous statement that magical-fix-all-daddy will not show up. But you need to prove to yourself, AND YOUR DAUGHTER, that you can do ANYTHING for her. Even if it means swearing off guys FOR A PERIOD OF TIME until you have a home (of your own, or with some kind roommates, but you need to be paying half the bills)and a job and your little girl down to a schedule.
I UNDERSTAND wanting that father figure. But, when my mom was still getting the hang of things, the father-figures she dated, I absolutely HATED for taking mommy away from me (though I never said anything). After she got the hang of things, then she started attracting the types of men, who, seeing that she had a little girl already she wasn't going to leave for their sake, were willing to BE father figures. The types of men who could see my Mom not as a partner but as a Mom first. Then she got married to one and I had a great step-father for the latter half of my teen years.
I'm not saying this will take you that long, but despite your belief in father-figure necessity, many women have proven, either through experience or through BEING the child, it IS NOT A NECCESSITY. At least ONE good caregiver is the important thing, and if you are focusing on ONLY baby, wonderful, that caregiver is you.
Sigh. So, you tell Andrew the truth. But if he stays, you tell him you need enough space and that he knows that baby will ALWAYS be number one. If he leaves, then baby is still number one; focus on making your family (whether you choose to live with mom, an ex's mom, on your own, whatever, this family should now just include you and baby and ANYONE else is just an outsider until passing strict guidelines and regulations, so-to-speak) the type of family that will only attract good family people.
I know you didn't mention this, but it may come up: If you end up requiring physical stimulation in the future, after this baby, but are not yet in a steady, monogamous relationship (I'm talking REALLY REALLY steady in all sense of the word, financial, spiritual, emotional, educational,housing arrangements, whatever) for the sake of those children you lost and any future ones that will have to deal with a less-than-close-to-perfect life-arrangement, DO NOT HAVE INTERCOURSE THAT CAN LEAD TO MORE PREGNANCIES. Even safe, you seem EXTREMELY fertile. Stick to hands, fingers, mouths. You can still get off and get others off. Or for pete's sake, buy a good vibrator.
If you want the others in this forum to treat you as a mature adult, then learn to take all advice not as personal attacks but observations and reccommendations. Getting defensive, as you have been, only makes you look like a crybaby.
More...
HOWEVER, I found that a damn-determined mother and family she could trust was all I needed. I'm GLAD that I went fatherless, because it made me closer to my mother and she would push away people who were not perfect for her "father-figure." I'm sorry you were raised in that you feel Mom+Dad is the ONLY good way to raise a "productive member of society."
Having safe-sex, or as safe as you could manage, was good of you. But Sex, while entertaining and full of physical and emotional benefits, IS NOT REQUIRED. I could tell you that maybe you SHOULD-HAVE stopped having intercourse at least for a period of time (there are other things couples can do, mutual masturbation, oral, dry-humping (with clothes on) to prove that you were mature enough to have learned from those other lost babies.
However, telling you what you SHOULD-HAVE done can't help you now. So. What do you do now?
Listen. Seriously. Set yourself up for baby. Try to get a job (I know the economy is tough and pregnancy makes some jobs difficult and you're already a babysitter, but you need to TRY) and/or finish school. LOTS OF PREGNANT WOMEN MANAGE THIS. You can, too.
Allow yourself to go on dates. But don't worry about a father figure AT THIS TIME. I agree with a previous statement that magical-fix-all-daddy will not show up. But you need to prove to yourself, AND YOUR DAUGHTER, that you can do ANYTHING for her. Even if it means swearing off guys FOR A PERIOD OF TIME until you have a home (of your own, or with some kind roommates, but you need to be paying half the bills)and a job and your little girl down to a schedule.
I UNDERSTAND wanting that father figure. But, when my mom was still getting the hang of things, the father-figures she dated, I absolutely HATED for taking mommy away from me (though I never said anything). After she got the hang of things, then she started attracting the types of men, who, seeing that she had a little girl already she wasn't going to leave for their sake, were willing to BE father figures. The types of men who could see my Mom not as a partner but as a Mom first. Then she got married to one and I had a great step-father for the latter half of my teen years.
I'm not saying this will take you that long, but despite your belief in father-figure necessity, many women have proven, either through experience or through BEING the child, it IS NOT A NECCESSITY. At least ONE good caregiver is the important thing, and if you are focusing on ONLY baby, wonderful, that caregiver is you.
Sigh. So, you tell Andrew the truth. But if he stays, you tell him you need enough space and that he knows that baby will ALWAYS be number one. If he leaves, then baby is still number one; focus on making your family (whether you choose to live with mom, an ex's mom, on your own, whatever, this family should now just include you and baby and ANYONE else is just an outsider until passing strict guidelines and regulations, so-to-speak) the type of family that will only attract good family people.
I know you didn't mention this, but it may come up: If you end up requiring physical stimulation in the future, after this baby, but are not yet in a steady, monogamous relationship (I'm talking REALLY REALLY steady in all sense of the word, financial, spiritual, emotional, educational,housing arrangements, whatever) for the sake of those children you lost and any future ones that will have to deal with a less-than-close-to-perfect life-arrangement, DO NOT HAVE INTERCOURSE THAT CAN LEAD TO MORE PREGNANCIES. Even safe, you seem EXTREMELY fertile. Stick to hands, fingers, mouths. You can still get off and get others off. Or for pete's sake, buy a good vibrator.
If you want the others in this forum to treat you as a mature adult, then learn to take all advice not as personal attacks but observations and reccommendations. Getting defensive, as you have been, only makes you look like a crybaby.
101
Shelby,
see my comment @ comment # 80.
Read it.
Others have given that same advice.
You've been given the advice you sought. Now ignore ALL THE REST, and make your decision.
see my comment @ comment # 80.
Read it.
Others have given that same advice.
You've been given the advice you sought. Now ignore ALL THE REST, and make your decision.
102
Dan, this is such a disappointing week... You made up the first question so you could promote charities, and you don't like Glee. You don't like GLEE!? You're flat out lying. No one who watches it doesn't love it. It's the best show on TV right now. And I really don't respect liars.
103
Thank you guys.
And I know I don't NEED a guy right now.
I can make it on my own.
I have a good job, I'm now working at a clothing store.
Also,
I'm not getting defensive.
but being called a troll and a liar just kind of, make me want to prove more.
Even though I shouldn't have to.
I just want someone who will be willing to treat my baby girl as theirs, even if we aren't together.
That is how I'm happy.
I had someone treat me like that.
Someone only two years older than me.
He treated me like he was my father, he never let me down unless he absolutely had to.
He was also my friend.
This is what I want for my little girl.
I don't want a relationship.
It may or may not happen that way,
but either way,
a good man in her life will help her.
I will tell Andrew when he comes over either tonight or tomorrow.
We'll sit and have a talk about it because I'm not just going to tell him, then let him walk away.
Thank you to Thoughtful atm.
That really helped.
And I know I don't NEED a guy right now.
I can make it on my own.
I have a good job, I'm now working at a clothing store.
Also,
I'm not getting defensive.
but being called a troll and a liar just kind of, make me want to prove more.
Even though I shouldn't have to.
I just want someone who will be willing to treat my baby girl as theirs, even if we aren't together.
That is how I'm happy.
I had someone treat me like that.
Someone only two years older than me.
He treated me like he was my father, he never let me down unless he absolutely had to.
He was also my friend.
This is what I want for my little girl.
I don't want a relationship.
It may or may not happen that way,
but either way,
a good man in her life will help her.
I will tell Andrew when he comes over either tonight or tomorrow.
We'll sit and have a talk about it because I'm not just going to tell him, then let him walk away.
Thank you to Thoughtful atm.
That really helped.
104
@68 - what i am personally okay with is irrelevant.
would i ever participate in such a relationship? absolutely not.
would i be supportive if a friend wished to participate in such a relationship? probably not.
does that make it at all my business what anyone else chooses to do? definitely not.
would i ever participate in such a relationship? absolutely not.
would i be supportive if a friend wished to participate in such a relationship? probably not.
does that make it at all my business what anyone else chooses to do? definitely not.
105
I noticed no one bothered to ask how old little miss cinderella is... I'd say 17 tops.
I remember when I was 17 and knew everything and could do it all by myself. Anyone who stood in my way with such silly things as "reasonable advice" just didn't know what they were talking about.
Boy those days were fun.
I remember when I was 17 and knew everything and could do it all by myself. Anyone who stood in my way with such silly things as "reasonable advice" just didn't know what they were talking about.
Boy those days were fun.
106
Cinderella... please, give the baby up for adoption to someone who's desperately ready, willing, and joyously able to be a parent... better yet, two parents! I'm begging you. You're not ready...and that's an understatement. You're a child yourself. This is not a time to try on parenthood and hope for the best. Crikey, it's a child, not a doll!
Please just do your best to stay healthy while the kid's inutero, and do the most selfless, generous, miraculous thing any mother can do--the thing that won't screw up his life. There are lots of ways to do it and stay in the baby's life (preferably from the sidelines). How do I know? Cause I did it 25 years ago, and it was the smartest thing I ever did. I picked the parents... two stellar people I knew very well... The kid's a scientist now, a wonderful, centered, non-fucked up human being, and is incredibly grateful for what I did.
I never regretted if for a second. Hurt like hell at first, but I knew I could reproduce anytime I wanted, and they couldn't. Later, I became a parent, and loved it... but only when the baby was more important than which boy liked me. Just sayin.
Please just do your best to stay healthy while the kid's inutero, and do the most selfless, generous, miraculous thing any mother can do--the thing that won't screw up his life. There are lots of ways to do it and stay in the baby's life (preferably from the sidelines). How do I know? Cause I did it 25 years ago, and it was the smartest thing I ever did. I picked the parents... two stellar people I knew very well... The kid's a scientist now, a wonderful, centered, non-fucked up human being, and is incredibly grateful for what I did.
I never regretted if for a second. Hurt like hell at first, but I knew I could reproduce anytime I wanted, and they couldn't. Later, I became a parent, and loved it... but only when the baby was more important than which boy liked me. Just sayin.
107
@106, thank you for your selfless act and your beautifully beautifully written words. I wish more people on this planet were like you.
108
Cinderella, sweetie,
my heart goes out to you. Especially when I read the horrible things people here are saying to you. (Some of you are outright cowards who would never say any of those things if you had to do it while looking her in the eye...Illogical, Jimand, you suck.)
Let's look at the facts. Your father was an asshole. I had one of those too. What I learned there (finally) was that when girls don't have a decent dad, they search out that bond we never had... with every guy who comes down the pike. That's why you've had four pregnancies.
Now, YOU came here seeking advice. Rudeness and outright stupidity aside, what you got was not what you expected, because these people saw a bigger problem than the one you saw. That's why some called you immature. And sweetie, you are immature. That's what happens when you're young. (BTW, how old are you?) Parenthood changes your life, and you don't even know what yours is about yet.
I'll never tell you to have an abortion, and the minute you said you were against it, these people should have shut the hell up about it. But I'm going to ask you to keep your mind open about adoption. Don't feel threatened, or get defensive (and yes, my dear, you have been defensive. YOU get to make the decision. But please, fully weigh your options, and look how the deck is stacked against you and your child before you make that decision. You have to have a plan, and a good one that makes sense. That's the mark of maturity.
Now... about Andrew. Yes, of course, tell him. Honesty is always the best policy. Tell Eddy too... he needs to pony up for his share of this enourmous task (he gets no choice, but that's another story). That support might only be monetary. You can't make him a good dad. You can't make Andrew one either. They're both just kids too. Who knows how they'll turn out? Your dad was probably just a fun-loving, handsome guy before he ruined your life too.
One more thing...
Imagine your childhood with a wonderful father. Imagine how different your life would be now. Imagine how much easier your mother's life would be... and your siblings. If you'd had the loving support of two committed parents, do you think you'd be in this mess right now? Without a good father, the same thing can happen to Haley. I'm asking you to put her needs before your own. Break the cycle. I did. I gave my son up for adoption. It hurt like hell for about a year. But I knew his life was wonderful, filled not just with love, but with committment and attention and consistency and all the things I wasn't grown up enough to give him. Love just isn't enough. That's the thing about kids... they don't wait. They need what they need and they need it NOW. This isn't a dress rehearsal. Mistakes matter. The thought that I could do real damage, all the while loving this child with all my heart, was what made me realize that his need for the best parents (notice the plural) was greater than my selfish need to keep him.
Adoption could be the greatest gift you can give. Promise you'll really think about it.
More...
my heart goes out to you. Especially when I read the horrible things people here are saying to you. (Some of you are outright cowards who would never say any of those things if you had to do it while looking her in the eye...Illogical, Jimand, you suck.)
Let's look at the facts. Your father was an asshole. I had one of those too. What I learned there (finally) was that when girls don't have a decent dad, they search out that bond we never had... with every guy who comes down the pike. That's why you've had four pregnancies.
Now, YOU came here seeking advice. Rudeness and outright stupidity aside, what you got was not what you expected, because these people saw a bigger problem than the one you saw. That's why some called you immature. And sweetie, you are immature. That's what happens when you're young. (BTW, how old are you?) Parenthood changes your life, and you don't even know what yours is about yet.
I'll never tell you to have an abortion, and the minute you said you were against it, these people should have shut the hell up about it. But I'm going to ask you to keep your mind open about adoption. Don't feel threatened, or get defensive (and yes, my dear, you have been defensive. YOU get to make the decision. But please, fully weigh your options, and look how the deck is stacked against you and your child before you make that decision. You have to have a plan, and a good one that makes sense. That's the mark of maturity.
Now... about Andrew. Yes, of course, tell him. Honesty is always the best policy. Tell Eddy too... he needs to pony up for his share of this enourmous task (he gets no choice, but that's another story). That support might only be monetary. You can't make him a good dad. You can't make Andrew one either. They're both just kids too. Who knows how they'll turn out? Your dad was probably just a fun-loving, handsome guy before he ruined your life too.
One more thing...
Imagine your childhood with a wonderful father. Imagine how different your life would be now. Imagine how much easier your mother's life would be... and your siblings. If you'd had the loving support of two committed parents, do you think you'd be in this mess right now? Without a good father, the same thing can happen to Haley. I'm asking you to put her needs before your own. Break the cycle. I did. I gave my son up for adoption. It hurt like hell for about a year. But I knew his life was wonderful, filled not just with love, but with committment and attention and consistency and all the things I wasn't grown up enough to give him. Love just isn't enough. That's the thing about kids... they don't wait. They need what they need and they need it NOW. This isn't a dress rehearsal. Mistakes matter. The thought that I could do real damage, all the while loving this child with all my heart, was what made me realize that his need for the best parents (notice the plural) was greater than my selfish need to keep him.
Adoption could be the greatest gift you can give. Promise you'll really think about it.
110
@106/108 - you're an amazing, wonderful person. i hope this child is wise enough to listen to you.
111
I wonder often if transgendered people aren't victims of something far worse than bigotry. I wonder if they are victims of a niche medical and psychological community desperate for recognition and money enough to exacerbate what is already a serious case of Body Dysmorphic DIsorder. They hide their greed behind a politicized community while making hundreds of thousands of dollars from poor and ultimately unperfectable cosmetic surgeries and lifetime leashes to bigpharma. These hundreds of thousands of dollars add up to a multimillion dollar industry based on pandering and deceit. The idea that "the stork made a mistake" or "god made a mistake," is absolute rubbish. There is no stork or god to make a mistake. But there are poorly equipped parents and peers who don't know how to handle people who fall outside of their narrow definitions of "femininity" and "masculinity". And there is a self-justifying yet ironically simultaneously self-denying subculture of people willing to tell one another what they want to hear from others themselves. But none of this makes it true. It kills me that so many people are being victimized and that nobody is looking into it. "Straights" wouldn't be taken seriously if they did since any "straight" criticism of "queer" behavior is simply dismissed as "conservative" or "queer-bashing" and "queers" won't look into it because they are terrified to unravel the web of comforting deceit that they base way too much of their self-identity on. There is no such thing as a "transman" but there are confused and dejected women with mutilated vaginas, steroid addictions (and all the benefits that go with that, including roid rage), and completely forfeited reproductive futures who grew up not feeling "pretty enough." There is no such thing as a "transwoman" but there are confused and dejected men with mutilated penises and lifetime reliances on depilatories, additional surgeries, and lifetime addictions to pfizer supplied hormones who grew up not feeling "manly enough". I feel a lot of sympathy for these people because not only does the rest of the world not accept them for who and what they are, but they don't accept themselves for who and what they are and surrender themselves to a lifetime barely guilded cage. It's too bad that most people will dismiss my statement as "homophobic" or "square" or whatever without considering the implications of the huge scam that is victimizing people by playing to their egos without considering that what I write here, I write out of concern for people I consider victims of a big scam. Deceit and self-delusion never made anyone healthy. Pandering is disgusting. It is all cosmetic and superficial, just like Beverly Hills wives and their tit jobs, lipo, and collagen injections.
More...
113
I'm 20 actually.
And as for all that.
I understand.
I have thought about it.
This is my plan:
If I have not come up with a living situation of my OWN, means of better support, and everything I need for Hayley,
I will give her up for adoption.
I know someone who is looking.
They're very nice people, 35 and 39 years old.
They would teach the baby well and they agreed that the baby will know I'm her mother,
but they will be her adoptive parents.
I will have everything to do with her I possibly can.
But they will play the parents.
I have not talked to Eddy yet because he isn't answering his phone.
Nobody is.
Andrew's at the Fryeburg Fair.
So therefore, I won't bug him.
It's better to tell him in person anyways.
I know parenting won't be easy.
I don't expect it to be.
But I know I can do it, even if there are problems.
I'll get through it.
I'm strong and I'm determined.
So if I am ready and I can do this,
I will.
I'm not perfect,
I know motherhood isn't perfect.
But I know how it feels to hold a baby in your arms and know she's all yours, that you created that miracle.
I want to feel that.
Even if it's just for a moment before I give her up.
And as for all that.
I understand.
I have thought about it.
This is my plan:
If I have not come up with a living situation of my OWN, means of better support, and everything I need for Hayley,
I will give her up for adoption.
I know someone who is looking.
They're very nice people, 35 and 39 years old.
They would teach the baby well and they agreed that the baby will know I'm her mother,
but they will be her adoptive parents.
I will have everything to do with her I possibly can.
But they will play the parents.
I have not talked to Eddy yet because he isn't answering his phone.
Nobody is.
Andrew's at the Fryeburg Fair.
So therefore, I won't bug him.
It's better to tell him in person anyways.
I know parenting won't be easy.
I don't expect it to be.
But I know I can do it, even if there are problems.
I'll get through it.
I'm strong and I'm determined.
So if I am ready and I can do this,
I will.
I'm not perfect,
I know motherhood isn't perfect.
But I know how it feels to hold a baby in your arms and know she's all yours, that you created that miracle.
I want to feel that.
Even if it's just for a moment before I give her up.
115
Something to consider doing- get married in a state that does allow same sex marriage. The money & support you, and we hope many more, will be showing will be noticed!
116
@113 - So you will give her up for adoption but want "everything to do with her you possibly can"? Isn't that a bit unrealistic? Because these people will not "Play" the parents, they will BE the parents. Giving birth doesn't make you a mom.
118
i call troll. still. i pulled shit like this when i was a kid, whipped forum folks into a frenzy...to think kids used to just throw rocks at passing cars. convenient how she produces perfect parents automatically...also, nuva ring "will be changed" every month? doc is uninvolved, you do it yourself. And if she'd really had so many pregnancies, and the doc "chose it for her", he'd have given her a low-hormone IUD ( all my friends who've had babies have these). but its been entertaining, and i love that southpark ep. that dan references...
119
When I was a kid I used to troll anti-gay forums and say all kinds of things to get the homophobes going. I have to say it was great fun. Probably ultimately not helpful to the civil rights movement. Looking back, I had at the time found out a younger sibling was gay and was worried for him with our rather religious parents and kids at school and all and I think it was a way to deal with the anger I felt toward people who might bully him. So if this is all made up I wonder what her underlying issue is? Maybe she wanted to get a lot of people going on abortion...She seems to have really taken that right up. And this stuff about her cheating ex sort of echoes last week's controversial love letter.
Funny too how in her original post she doesn't mention the main issue as looking for a father figure for her soon to be kid. That birth control stuff sounds totally bogus. That's either BS or she didn't know what she was doing or she was careless or trying to get pregnant. I guess "trying" given how often she says she has been pregnant.
Then again, she asked a question and didn't go into any pronouncement of ideals, so maybe it's legit. Then again, although I'm a straight woman, I would go on religious forums and say I was a hot gay man and detail all the cock I loved to suck and would say I jacked off to Jesus and was going to love pounding ass when I died and went to hell and sat back enjoying the anonymous melee to follow. And my responses would be in line with, "Whateva I do want I want." Definitely not helpful, actually.
If she's for real, all I can say is, Oh dear god.
I am suspicious that if she's real what she's really saying is, "I got pregnant with this kid by this idiot guy I really like maybemaybenot on purpose thinking it would fix his douchebaggering ways but he's still with someone else and it's breaking my heart and oh shit now I'm 4 months pregnant but there's this other guy who likes me and I maybe like him because he's nice to me and I'm scared and I really want to be in a relationship so should I take him? And I'm unconfident and don't know what I'm doing and don't want to be alone so how do I make sure I get one of these guys?"
I wouldn't have been mature enough at 20 for a kid precisely because when you're 20 you're supposed to be more worried about boys and relationships than the consequences of breeding. She's not immature for her age, she's a young woman in an uncertain situation and has a rigid set of idealistic notions in addition to youthful distraction toward stupid boys...a combination I suspect the next few years will be highly deconstructive of. One really good, secure parent is scores better than a mother with good intentions but youthful ignorance and an idiot father or an insecure substitute.
And really, her health is intertwined with her baby's since she plans to keep it, in which case she should DTMFA right now. All of them for awhile, especially if she loses pregnancies easily, which can be easily affected by stress. And then when she's emotionally settled into motherhood and physically recovered from pregnancy she should think very, very carefully about what sort of lover she needs and be careful about how quickly such a relationship escalates, taking her time, and along the process consider what father figure her suitors might make for her kid. But throwing together a makeshift family on the quick and dirty is asking to end up in a South Park existence. Dear god.
More...
Funny too how in her original post she doesn't mention the main issue as looking for a father figure for her soon to be kid. That birth control stuff sounds totally bogus. That's either BS or she didn't know what she was doing or she was careless or trying to get pregnant. I guess "trying" given how often she says she has been pregnant.
Then again, she asked a question and didn't go into any pronouncement of ideals, so maybe it's legit. Then again, although I'm a straight woman, I would go on religious forums and say I was a hot gay man and detail all the cock I loved to suck and would say I jacked off to Jesus and was going to love pounding ass when I died and went to hell and sat back enjoying the anonymous melee to follow. And my responses would be in line with, "Whateva I do want I want." Definitely not helpful, actually.
If she's for real, all I can say is, Oh dear god.
I am suspicious that if she's real what she's really saying is, "I got pregnant with this kid by this idiot guy I really like maybemaybenot on purpose thinking it would fix his douchebaggering ways but he's still with someone else and it's breaking my heart and oh shit now I'm 4 months pregnant but there's this other guy who likes me and I maybe like him because he's nice to me and I'm scared and I really want to be in a relationship so should I take him? And I'm unconfident and don't know what I'm doing and don't want to be alone so how do I make sure I get one of these guys?"
I wouldn't have been mature enough at 20 for a kid precisely because when you're 20 you're supposed to be more worried about boys and relationships than the consequences of breeding. She's not immature for her age, she's a young woman in an uncertain situation and has a rigid set of idealistic notions in addition to youthful distraction toward stupid boys...a combination I suspect the next few years will be highly deconstructive of. One really good, secure parent is scores better than a mother with good intentions but youthful ignorance and an idiot father or an insecure substitute.
And really, her health is intertwined with her baby's since she plans to keep it, in which case she should DTMFA right now. All of them for awhile, especially if she loses pregnancies easily, which can be easily affected by stress. And then when she's emotionally settled into motherhood and physically recovered from pregnancy she should think very, very carefully about what sort of lover she needs and be careful about how quickly such a relationship escalates, taking her time, and along the process consider what father figure her suitors might make for her kid. But throwing together a makeshift family on the quick and dirty is asking to end up in a South Park existence. Dear god.
120
GGG in PDX - There might be a biological reason for that, too. The default biological pathway is female - that is, if an embryo with an XY makeup's development is halted in some way en route to becoming a little boy, it will default to female. There are dozens of ways an XY embryo can be born and subsequently raised female. There are no known ways in which an XX embryo will default to male development. Obviously this doesn't answer every question humans have about gender identity, but it could play a role in the phenomenon you've noticed.
121
In a 100,000 years or so, none of the present hysteria regarding same sex couples will matter given the deterioration of the Y chromosome. There won't be any males left and the human race will become extinct unless some method asexual reproduction is developed. Not that it will matter to any of us, we'll all be dust blowing in the wind. Sound and fury signifying nothing. And this too shall pass away.
It really is amazing how much many people value something, how important it is to them. when they can't have it(marriage) and how little something, that is incredibly precious, is valued once it freely available (the right to vote) Basic human pyschology, the value most people put on something is determined by the effort required to get it and then keep it. I guess the same thing applies to relationships.
It really is amazing how much many people value something, how important it is to them. when they can't have it(marriage) and how little something, that is incredibly precious, is valued once it freely available (the right to vote) Basic human pyschology, the value most people put on something is determined by the effort required to get it and then keep it. I guess the same thing applies to relationships.
123
myycinderella, please get an abortion. We don't need any more offspring invested with hot tempers and rigid values like YOURS.
124
Anyone interested in the economics of marriage should read the recent NYT article, "The High Price of Being a Gay Couple": http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/03/your-m… . IMO, it makes more sense to highlight the legal and economic discrimination that bans on gay marriage create than to continue to engage with religious conservatives on their terms.
125
conservatives say that gay marriage threatens straight marriage...looks like marriage inequality is what's threatening straight marriage. .
126
@117- I believe that open adoptions are a wonderful thing, but its about what's best for the child. It seems like it would be quite confusing for the child growing up- their birth mom in their life as much as possible, but not all the time? I guess I don't think parenting is a part time job. In this situation specifically, it seems like mycinderella wants the best of both worlds, she wants to be a mommy, but only part of the time. A woman so concerned with dating while she should be focused on the child doesn't seem to be the best role model. I hope this is not the case.
127
@Meggleberry, it's usually a choice between open adoption and no adoption at all. I'd rather have an immature young girl an in and out presence in her child's life, and therefore feel reassured into giving that child a stable home, than be scared into trying to keep the kid and being way overwhelmed, and raising the child herself, when she really can't do it well at all.
128
@ 46 Justme:
Great response. But just to clarify, genetic defects due to inbreeding would typically take a generation or two to manifest. Granted the danger grows the more inline the inbreeding is (Mother/Son or Father/Daughter).
While I agree that these type of relationships shouldn't be promoted it's important to recognize that the 'Eww!' factor associated with it is socially engineered (not necessarily for a bad reason). Just think of how people would 'Eww!' at a step-brother-step-sister relationship when there's no actual genetic basis for the 'Eww!'.
Great response. But just to clarify, genetic defects due to inbreeding would typically take a generation or two to manifest. Granted the danger grows the more inline the inbreeding is (Mother/Son or Father/Daughter).
While I agree that these type of relationships shouldn't be promoted it's important to recognize that the 'Eww!' factor associated with it is socially engineered (not necessarily for a bad reason). Just think of how people would 'Eww!' at a step-brother-step-sister relationship when there's no actual genetic basis for the 'Eww!'.
129
Dan, Thanks so much for the reply you gave to the het couple thinking of marriage. My partner and I of 35 years got married this year in Nova Scotia, Canada because we finally could. Our niece asked us the other day if we feel any different since we got married.I told her yes. Your quote from the Supreme Court of Massachusetts decision embodies everything we've been feeling since we met.
Thanks.
Thanks.
130
@ 111. Wow! Good for you that you know so much. That you can divine what is so for those misguided soles with "BDD."
Have you ever met a transgendered person?
One of the smartest persons I ever met is an MTF lesbian. I can't begin to describe her brilliance as it would take volumes.
Tim transitioned to Tammy in the most deliberative way possible and she was in her early 40's when she did so. Now she is a post-op woman for close to 10 years and feels more fulfilled than at anytime she carried male genitalia.
About her parenting and rearing: She is the youngest of eight children. None of the other children are gay or transgendered. She grew up playing football and was a champion wrestler. All very male pursuits, no?
During all of those years she felt she was a woman; deep down in her bones.
I guess what I'm trying to say, unless you've walked in the shoes of someone that has these feelings, please refrain from judgment.
Certainly your points about the dollar amounts spent are well noted, you could also say the same for countless other legitimate miladies that exist. Being trans is not a malady.
I'm bored with this and you 111. Get a life so that you may let others live the life they desire.
Have you ever met a transgendered person?
One of the smartest persons I ever met is an MTF lesbian. I can't begin to describe her brilliance as it would take volumes.
Tim transitioned to Tammy in the most deliberative way possible and she was in her early 40's when she did so. Now she is a post-op woman for close to 10 years and feels more fulfilled than at anytime she carried male genitalia.
About her parenting and rearing: She is the youngest of eight children. None of the other children are gay or transgendered. She grew up playing football and was a champion wrestler. All very male pursuits, no?
During all of those years she felt she was a woman; deep down in her bones.
I guess what I'm trying to say, unless you've walked in the shoes of someone that has these feelings, please refrain from judgment.
Certainly your points about the dollar amounts spent are well noted, you could also say the same for countless other legitimate miladies that exist. Being trans is not a malady.
I'm bored with this and you 111. Get a life so that you may let others live the life they desire.
131
Why no MTFs at bars that caters to gay men and lesbians? I think you'll find a good deal of homophobia in the MTF community. The idea that we are women trapped in a man's is like a get out of queerdom free card for both the trans-woman and the "admirer". This isn't true of all MTFs but more than once I've been threatened with violence when I, an MTF, identified as being queer and tag as being part of queer culture. There also is a preference among gays for masculine bodies. Hormone therapy does amazing things to our bodies and most gay men aren’t looking for a boy that looks like a girl. Larger cities likely have a few tyranny bars. There you can find one of the fabulous few but watch out for pros!
132
@ 131. I'm sorry. I don't understand. Are you saying that you've been "threatened with violence" from gay men and/or women?
Simply, I cannot imagine a gay man or lesbian woman that would threaten you with violence because of your reality.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something because, somewhere along the way in your post, you went incomprehensible.
What are you saying? I really don't understand.
Simply, I cannot imagine a gay man or lesbian woman that would threaten you with violence because of your reality.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something because, somewhere along the way in your post, you went incomprehensible.
What are you saying? I really don't understand.
133
I agree with seanat that government should get out of the marriage business and leave it to churches.
When Dan quotes the "reading" isn't it ironic that it mentions commitment and fidelity? I have been out for 20 years and monogamous gay couples are definitely in the minority. Which makes me cringe when those with the open relationship, regular 3 ways, or cheating on the side seem to be the loudest protesting for the right to marry!
But before you accuse me of being a self-hating fag, the way straight couples approach marriage is often no better. I am not a prude who thinks people should stay virgins until marriage. However I am sick of so many straight females, my own sister included, who set up house with a guy for 3, 4, 5 years (and sometimes have a kid)then decide to get "married". The parents fork out thousands of dollars and friends are supposed to pony up shower and wedding gifts, while the bride spends a couple thousand on a white dress that will be worn one time.
I'm sorry but I would have more respect for these women who swoon over their weddings if they lived alone or with their parents until the big day. Having a big obnoxious wedding after living together for years is a farce.
So let the government equalize civil union rights in tax and social law for everyone-gay and straight--without the big ceremony. For those who treat marriage as a religious sacrament, go see your priest, rabbi, or minister.
When Dan quotes the "reading" isn't it ironic that it mentions commitment and fidelity? I have been out for 20 years and monogamous gay couples are definitely in the minority. Which makes me cringe when those with the open relationship, regular 3 ways, or cheating on the side seem to be the loudest protesting for the right to marry!
But before you accuse me of being a self-hating fag, the way straight couples approach marriage is often no better. I am not a prude who thinks people should stay virgins until marriage. However I am sick of so many straight females, my own sister included, who set up house with a guy for 3, 4, 5 years (and sometimes have a kid)then decide to get "married". The parents fork out thousands of dollars and friends are supposed to pony up shower and wedding gifts, while the bride spends a couple thousand on a white dress that will be worn one time.
I'm sorry but I would have more respect for these women who swoon over their weddings if they lived alone or with their parents until the big day. Having a big obnoxious wedding after living together for years is a farce.
So let the government equalize civil union rights in tax and social law for everyone-gay and straight--without the big ceremony. For those who treat marriage as a religious sacrament, go see your priest, rabbi, or minister.
134
Thank you #111 for saying what needed to be said. Damn the critics who can't let go.
While I agree that in certain medical cases (like a true hermaphrodite, or extreme hormone imbalance) a physical transition to one sex may be preferable. But I am afraid that the vast majority are mentally disturbed and need counseling. Instead we have become way too quick to say "okay, you are a M/F trapped in a M/F body? then proceed with a sex change".
There was a great documentary a year or so ago (I think on Discovery Channel) that followed 3 individuals who had a sex change, then went back. It was heartbreaking to see what they put their body and minds through.
But it has become too politically correct in certain communities (and profitable in others)to discuss this frankly.
While I agree that in certain medical cases (like a true hermaphrodite, or extreme hormone imbalance) a physical transition to one sex may be preferable. But I am afraid that the vast majority are mentally disturbed and need counseling. Instead we have become way too quick to say "okay, you are a M/F trapped in a M/F body? then proceed with a sex change".
There was a great documentary a year or so ago (I think on Discovery Channel) that followed 3 individuals who had a sex change, then went back. It was heartbreaking to see what they put their body and minds through.
But it has become too politically correct in certain communities (and profitable in others)to discuss this frankly.
135
"In a 100,000 years or so, none of the present hysteria regarding same sex couples will matter given the deterioration of the Y chromosome."
Huh? You think that this wave of transexualism which has affected a fraction of a percent of men in a few countries is going to wash over India and China too, and all that poverty will be washed away by infinite wealth permitting fancy surgeries in areas of the world that can't support vaccinations?
@111, 134, psych conditions do not have bright lines dividing them. We all know the boundaries of ADD and bipolar (both surging) are sketchy. The same is probably true for transexualism, where there's a mix of BDD, a range of homosexuality, and 100% real deal wrong body stuff. But the conspiracy theory where pharma decides they're gonna make millions by inventing a fake syndrome where normal people are tricked into multilating their genitals? c'mon.
Huh? You think that this wave of transexualism which has affected a fraction of a percent of men in a few countries is going to wash over India and China too, and all that poverty will be washed away by infinite wealth permitting fancy surgeries in areas of the world that can't support vaccinations?
@111, 134, psych conditions do not have bright lines dividing them. We all know the boundaries of ADD and bipolar (both surging) are sketchy. The same is probably true for transexualism, where there's a mix of BDD, a range of homosexuality, and 100% real deal wrong body stuff. But the conspiracy theory where pharma decides they're gonna make millions by inventing a fake syndrome where normal people are tricked into multilating their genitals? c'mon.
136
"I find that any norm or law that deviates a sexual preference, or enforces a sexual morality, to create a misery of quite a special degree. For both the difficulties involved in the repression of sexual impulses and love, and the consequences of repression are quite different from those involved in the abstention from ordinary deviance. Unlike sexual impulses and love, the impulse to steal or to wound or even to kill is not, except in a minority of mentally abnormal cases, a recurrent and insistent part of our daily life. Resistance to the temptation to commit these forms of deviance is not often, as the suppression of sexual impulses and love generally is, something which affects the development or balance of the indiivdual's emotional life, happiness, and personality."
Even though I don't like HLA Hart, he wrote that in a book about the refutation of legal moralism. I really liked it.
Even though I don't like HLA Hart, he wrote that in a book about the refutation of legal moralism. I really liked it.
137
I'd like to add to 111 & 134 that the whole MTF enterprise, besides making profits off of people with severe delusions, depends on misogyny for its legitimacy. In the MTF mind and political movement, having boobs and a hole between your legs, and wearing make-up and high heels are the equivalent of being a woman.
Imagine the reaction if white people started declaring they felt like black people trapped in white bodies and the psychiatric, pharmaceutical, and cosmetic industries responded by selling skin darkeners and lip implants. Everyone would scream racism, and rightly so because it is racist to equate the experience of blackness to skin color and stereotypical physical traits.
There certainly would not be the extraordinary legal recognition and protection afforded to cosmetically altered men. FTM is so rare as to be statistically insignificant (even within the queer community) and irrelevant to the discussion.
There is a body of scholarship that basically establishes that except for a very small minority of genetically ambiguously gendered people, the vast majority of MTF transsexuals are sexual fetishists whose obsessive fantasies are more of possessing a woman's body than of any feelings of "being a woman". They are welcome to their fantasies and fetishes, but please spare me the political demands for equality.
And, BTW, yes, drag queens are no better than minstrel performers in black face and go to show the deep misogyny of the gay community so often reflected in Dan's almost unrelenting nasty attitude towards the woman in his columns.
Imagine the reaction if white people started declaring they felt like black people trapped in white bodies and the psychiatric, pharmaceutical, and cosmetic industries responded by selling skin darkeners and lip implants. Everyone would scream racism, and rightly so because it is racist to equate the experience of blackness to skin color and stereotypical physical traits.
There certainly would not be the extraordinary legal recognition and protection afforded to cosmetically altered men. FTM is so rare as to be statistically insignificant (even within the queer community) and irrelevant to the discussion.
There is a body of scholarship that basically establishes that except for a very small minority of genetically ambiguously gendered people, the vast majority of MTF transsexuals are sexual fetishists whose obsessive fantasies are more of possessing a woman's body than of any feelings of "being a woman". They are welcome to their fantasies and fetishes, but please spare me the political demands for equality.
And, BTW, yes, drag queens are no better than minstrel performers in black face and go to show the deep misogyny of the gay community so often reflected in Dan's almost unrelenting nasty attitude towards the woman in his columns.
138
111, 134, 137: There's such a thing as informed consent you know. Transpeople are not all actually so deluded by this monolithic "medical establishment" as to border on incompetent and we can make our own decisions about our bodies and our lives. Whether or not it squicks you out personally is irrelevant.
FTMs are not "statistically irrelevant" confused baby butch dykes who just need to be told they're pretty enough, and MTFs are not all really misogynists who think that woman = hole between your legs and in between your ears, and a man's arm to hang off of. We can read, we can educate ourselves, the decisions we make are our own and often reflect a lifetime of weighing the pros and cons of transition. Yeah, we're well aware that SRS (that means sex reassignment surgery, you know, getting "CUT") is not at all perfect and hormone therapy means a lifetime dependence on big pharmacy. It's not our fault the medical establishment sucks. And you know, a lot of us manage to still have decent self esteem enough to work with that and make decent lives for ourselves.
You are not a trans ally, that's fine, no one says you have to be. But unless you are concerned personally for a personal acquaintance and wish to try and persuade them not to transition out of a genuine place of respect and concern... Please. Would you kindly. Step the fuck off.
FTMs are not "statistically irrelevant" confused baby butch dykes who just need to be told they're pretty enough, and MTFs are not all really misogynists who think that woman = hole between your legs and in between your ears, and a man's arm to hang off of. We can read, we can educate ourselves, the decisions we make are our own and often reflect a lifetime of weighing the pros and cons of transition. Yeah, we're well aware that SRS (that means sex reassignment surgery, you know, getting "CUT") is not at all perfect and hormone therapy means a lifetime dependence on big pharmacy. It's not our fault the medical establishment sucks. And you know, a lot of us manage to still have decent self esteem enough to work with that and make decent lives for ourselves.
You are not a trans ally, that's fine, no one says you have to be. But unless you are concerned personally for a personal acquaintance and wish to try and persuade them not to transition out of a genuine place of respect and concern... Please. Would you kindly. Step the fuck off.
139
Thank you, Dan.
Your reading from the SCoMA opinion was very important. If I ever get married again, it will be one of the readings.
R
Your reading from the SCoMA opinion was very important. If I ever get married again, it will be one of the readings.
R
140
I just want Hayley Layne to have the best life she can be.
And at this point,
I am convinced that open adoption is the best option.
Abortion, I'm too far along,
AND not to mention I am against it as I've said before.
I don't have rigid values.
I just want my baby girl,
but I want her to have a father, and if I can't give her the best life, then I will let someone else give her the best life they can.
I know someone, they said they'd take her.
She will know about me and for the first 13 years, I will see her everyday as much as possible,
and after that it's her choice whether or not she has anything to do with me.
And at this point,
I am convinced that open adoption is the best option.
Abortion, I'm too far along,
AND not to mention I am against it as I've said before.
I don't have rigid values.
I just want my baby girl,
but I want her to have a father, and if I can't give her the best life, then I will let someone else give her the best life they can.
I know someone, they said they'd take her.
She will know about me and for the first 13 years, I will see her everyday as much as possible,
and after that it's her choice whether or not she has anything to do with me.
141
I wanted to wait to marry my husband too. I felt it so wrong that I could and my friends and family couldn't. But, life has to go on and we set a date. What I was able to do (and encourage others to do so too): I only used goods and services of businesses and locations that preform and cator to same sex unions. From my minister, location, even catorers! It was a little thing, but it helped ease my conscience!
142
ok mycinderella, it seems like you've come to a decision. Just remember to talk to the adaptive parents before about what you envision your relationship with your baby being like. I would say you should look at it more like being an Aunt or a cousin. Visiting everyday would probably be too much: every week or a few times a month or at holidays is probably more what should happen, like a relative that doesn't live in the same house. Make sure you talk to the adaptive parents about this and are clear with each other about what "open adaption" means to you.
(do NOT consider a closed adaption, it is not better for you or the child, it just creates secrets and pain)
But you should also look at what you want from your own life as well. You say you have a "good job in a clothing store". Is this where you want to be? Do you or did you have dreams for yourself? You need to get yourself to a place where you don't need these guys so much because you have your own life that is going places.
(do NOT consider a closed adaption, it is not better for you or the child, it just creates secrets and pain)
But you should also look at what you want from your own life as well. You say you have a "good job in a clothing store". Is this where you want to be? Do you or did you have dreams for yourself? You need to get yourself to a place where you don't need these guys so much because you have your own life that is going places.
144
@143 exactly. it was an instution long before religion even existed.
that being said, i don't find much harm in separating the church's point of view from that of the state... provided of course the government sanctioned "civic unions" between same sex couples were EXACTLY the same as those between a man and a woman.
that being said, i don't find much harm in separating the church's point of view from that of the state... provided of course the government sanctioned "civic unions" between same sex couples were EXACTLY the same as those between a man and a woman.
145
LOL at 137. Transgender inductry depends on misogyny? What about the misandry of suggesting having a beard and no tits and as much diack as you can buy makes you a man? Hmm? Women DO want their vag and their tits and men DO want their dicks and balls and if you lost your special bits you'd really want them back. THAT, free of any misandry or misogyny conspiracy, is sufficient explanation for TG surgery. And it's not misogynist to do drag (just silly these days). They're MOCKING gender roles and rules and they're making things more fluid not more rigid. Go take a xanax :)
146
No Yonush18 It will be irrelevant because the homo sapiens will go the way of the dodo bird because the y chromosome will cease to exist and all of the problems in the world caused by humans will come to an end. It will also answer the question about the extent to which climate change is caused by people. Although that won't matter all that much.
147
@111, 134, 137: I love how any kind of comment about trans people brings the misogynists out of the woodwork. The accusations of delusion, of misogyny, of being socially inept? I've heard it before. As a very smart cousin of mine said, "So you're becoming a member of an oppressed minority because you want it easier!? Yeah, right!" And she and I are both femme lesbians and share a lot of characteristics in common.
Right now, all by myself, I am very much more confident and comfortable in my skin than I was a year ago today. Nobody can take that away, and you cannot tell me it's wrong.
I am a woman, and your attempts to narrowly define womanhood by chromosomes is trans-misogynistic, and by what genitalia you were born with is incredibly bigoted against intersexed people.
And people like you are part of why we lose three trans people every month to violence and why 80% of the trans people who are murdered every year are trans women. People are dying because of what you call delusions. I call YOU the delusional ones.
Right now, all by myself, I am very much more confident and comfortable in my skin than I was a year ago today. Nobody can take that away, and you cannot tell me it's wrong.
I am a woman, and your attempts to narrowly define womanhood by chromosomes is trans-misogynistic, and by what genitalia you were born with is incredibly bigoted against intersexed people.
And people like you are part of why we lose three trans people every month to violence and why 80% of the trans people who are murdered every year are trans women. People are dying because of what you call delusions. I call YOU the delusional ones.
148
As an ftm transsexual I frankly don't give a fuck whether anyone thinks my GID is 'real' or not. The fact is that since undergoing a sex change, I feel happier and complete. I have felt displaced since before I remember and have been in counseling since middle school. NO ONE can tell me that this is 'wrong.' No one can tell me that the 'right' therapist would have suddenly made me want to be female.
134> specifically, "But I am afraid that the vast majority are mentally disturbed and need counseling. Instead we have become way too quick to say "okay, you are a M/F trapped in a M/F body? then proceed with a sex change"."
"Way too quick," you say? Are you fucking kidding me? You are required to jump all kinds of hoops to even begin hormone replacement therapy -- including speaking with an actual THERAPIST. Yes, I did need counseling. I got it. Along with my therapist letter and my treatment.
Complete, utter hypocrisy.
My body is not your business. I won't tell you what you should have between your legs, so keep your nose out of my identity and kindly piss off.
Cases where people 'change back' are so rare you cannot even believe. And while there are more mtfs than ftms the difference is not that substantial. I do however notice more transphobia within lesbian-feminist communities than gay-feminist. Perhaps because there will always be a need for a scapegoat.
134> specifically, "But I am afraid that the vast majority are mentally disturbed and need counseling. Instead we have become way too quick to say "okay, you are a M/F trapped in a M/F body? then proceed with a sex change"."
"Way too quick," you say? Are you fucking kidding me? You are required to jump all kinds of hoops to even begin hormone replacement therapy -- including speaking with an actual THERAPIST. Yes, I did need counseling. I got it. Along with my therapist letter and my treatment.
Complete, utter hypocrisy.
My body is not your business. I won't tell you what you should have between your legs, so keep your nose out of my identity and kindly piss off.
Cases where people 'change back' are so rare you cannot even believe. And while there are more mtfs than ftms the difference is not that substantial. I do however notice more transphobia within lesbian-feminist communities than gay-feminist. Perhaps because there will always be a need for a scapegoat.
149
As a university student I never thought I would get married. It seemed like an anachronistic institution that was about men owning women. My first reaction when same-sex marriage rights hit the spotlight was, "Sure everyone should have the right, but why would same-sex couples want to participate in that?" It was really only after same-sex marriage was legalized (I'm canadian) that my opinion of marriage started to turn around. Same-sex marriages can't be about men owning women, and as a consequence I could see how they were about two people building a new kind of life together.
I don't think there is any need to boycott marriage, just don't get yourself into what marriage was in the past. Have the kind of marriage that is a shared life between two people (rather than between *a man* and *a woman*) and live as an example of why different-sex marriage and same-sex marriage are really the same thing.
I don't think there is any need to boycott marriage, just don't get yourself into what marriage was in the past. Have the kind of marriage that is a shared life between two people (rather than between *a man* and *a woman*) and live as an example of why different-sex marriage and same-sex marriage are really the same thing.
150
The Iowa Supreme Court opinion also has some beautiful language:
"In this case, we must decide if our state statute limiting civil marriage to a union between a man and a woman violates the Iowa Constitution, as the district court ruled. On our review, we hold the Iowa marriage statute violates the equal protection clause of the Iowa Constitution. Therefore, we affirm the decision of the district court.
I. Background Facts and Proceedings.
This lawsuit is a civil rights action by twelve individuals who reside in six communities across Iowa. Like most Iowans, they are responsible, caring, and productive individuals. They maintain important jobs, or are retired, and are contributing, benevolent members of their communities. They include a nurse, business manager, insurance analyst, bank agent, stay-at-home parent, church organist and piano teacher, museum director, federal employee, social worker, teacher, and two retired teachers. Like many Iowans, some have children and others hope to have children. Some are foster parents. Like all Iowans, they prize their liberties and live within the borders of this state with the expectation that their rights will be maintained and protected—a belief embraced by our state motto.(p.1)
This class of people asks a simple and direct question: How can a state premised on the constitutional principle of equal protection justify exclusion of a class of Iowans from civil marriage?(p.18)
Many religions recognize same-sex marriage, such as Buddhists, Quakers, Unitarians, and Reform and Reconstructionist Jews. Schuman, 96 Geo. L.J. at 2108. Amicus curiae Iowa and National Faith Leaders, Communities, and Scholars point out the United Church of Christ encourages, but does not require, its local congregations to adopt wedding policies that do not discriminate between heterosexual, gay, and lesbian couples, while the Episcopal Church permits priests to perform liturgies and blessings at same-sex weddings as a matter of pastoral care. Additionally, many groups and clergy within various religions are working to achieve inclusion of same-sex marriage. (p.66)
State government can have no religious views, either directly or indirectly, expressed through its legislation. Knowlton v. Baumhover, 182 Iowa 691, 710, 166 N.W. 202, 208 (1918). This proposition is the essence of the separation of church and state. As a result, civil marriage must be judged under our constitutional standards of equal protection and not under religious doctrines or the religious views of individuals. This approach does not disrespect or denigrate the religious views of many Iowans who may strongly believe in marriage as a dual-gender union, but considers, as we must, only the constitutional rights of all people, as expressed by the promise of equal protection for all. We are not permitted to do less and would damage our constitution immeasurably by trying to do more. The only legitimate inquiry we can make is whether [the statute] is constitutional. If it is not, its virtues . . . cannot save it; if it is, its faults cannot be invoked to accomplish its destruction. If the provisions of the Constitution be not upheld when they pinch as well as when they comfort, they may as well be abandoned. Home Bldg. & Loan Ass’n v. Blaisdell, 290 U.S. 398, 483, 54 S. Ct. 231, 256, 78 L. Ed. 413, 452 (1934) (Sutherland, J. dissenting).
In the final analysis, we give respect to the views of all Iowans on the issue of same-sex marriage—religious or otherwise—by giving respect to our constitutional principles. These principles require that the state recognize both opposite-sex and same-sex civil marriage. Religious doctrine and views contrary to this principle of law are unaffected, and people can continue to associate with the religion that best reflects their views. A religious denomination can still define marriage as a union between a man and a woman, and a marriage ceremony performed by a minister, priest, rabbi, or other person ordained or designated as a leader of the person’s religiousfaith does not lose its meaning as a sacrament or other religious institution.
The sanctity of all religious marriages celebrated in the future will have the same meaning as those celebrated in the past. The only difference is civil marriage will now take on a new meaning that reflects a more complete understanding of equal protection of the law. This result is what our constitution requires.
We are firmly convinced the exclusion of gay and lesbian people from the institution of civil marriage does not substantially further any important governmental objective. (p.67-69)"
You can download a pdf of the full opinion at http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article…
or http://www.iowacourts.gov/Supreme_Court/
More...
"In this case, we must decide if our state statute limiting civil marriage to a union between a man and a woman violates the Iowa Constitution, as the district court ruled. On our review, we hold the Iowa marriage statute violates the equal protection clause of the Iowa Constitution. Therefore, we affirm the decision of the district court.
I. Background Facts and Proceedings.
This lawsuit is a civil rights action by twelve individuals who reside in six communities across Iowa. Like most Iowans, they are responsible, caring, and productive individuals. They maintain important jobs, or are retired, and are contributing, benevolent members of their communities. They include a nurse, business manager, insurance analyst, bank agent, stay-at-home parent, church organist and piano teacher, museum director, federal employee, social worker, teacher, and two retired teachers. Like many Iowans, some have children and others hope to have children. Some are foster parents. Like all Iowans, they prize their liberties and live within the borders of this state with the expectation that their rights will be maintained and protected—a belief embraced by our state motto.(p.1)
This class of people asks a simple and direct question: How can a state premised on the constitutional principle of equal protection justify exclusion of a class of Iowans from civil marriage?(p.18)
Many religions recognize same-sex marriage, such as Buddhists, Quakers, Unitarians, and Reform and Reconstructionist Jews. Schuman, 96 Geo. L.J. at 2108. Amicus curiae Iowa and National Faith Leaders, Communities, and Scholars point out the United Church of Christ encourages, but does not require, its local congregations to adopt wedding policies that do not discriminate between heterosexual, gay, and lesbian couples, while the Episcopal Church permits priests to perform liturgies and blessings at same-sex weddings as a matter of pastoral care. Additionally, many groups and clergy within various religions are working to achieve inclusion of same-sex marriage. (p.66)
State government can have no religious views, either directly or indirectly, expressed through its legislation. Knowlton v. Baumhover, 182 Iowa 691, 710, 166 N.W. 202, 208 (1918). This proposition is the essence of the separation of church and state. As a result, civil marriage must be judged under our constitutional standards of equal protection and not under religious doctrines or the religious views of individuals. This approach does not disrespect or denigrate the religious views of many Iowans who may strongly believe in marriage as a dual-gender union, but considers, as we must, only the constitutional rights of all people, as expressed by the promise of equal protection for all. We are not permitted to do less and would damage our constitution immeasurably by trying to do more. The only legitimate inquiry we can make is whether [the statute] is constitutional. If it is not, its virtues . . . cannot save it; if it is, its faults cannot be invoked to accomplish its destruction. If the provisions of the Constitution be not upheld when they pinch as well as when they comfort, they may as well be abandoned. Home Bldg. & Loan Ass’n v. Blaisdell, 290 U.S. 398, 483, 54 S. Ct. 231, 256, 78 L. Ed. 413, 452 (1934) (Sutherland, J. dissenting).
In the final analysis, we give respect to the views of all Iowans on the issue of same-sex marriage—religious or otherwise—by giving respect to our constitutional principles. These principles require that the state recognize both opposite-sex and same-sex civil marriage. Religious doctrine and views contrary to this principle of law are unaffected, and people can continue to associate with the religion that best reflects their views. A religious denomination can still define marriage as a union between a man and a woman, and a marriage ceremony performed by a minister, priest, rabbi, or other person ordained or designated as a leader of the person’s religiousfaith does not lose its meaning as a sacrament or other religious institution.
The sanctity of all religious marriages celebrated in the future will have the same meaning as those celebrated in the past. The only difference is civil marriage will now take on a new meaning that reflects a more complete understanding of equal protection of the law. This result is what our constitution requires.
We are firmly convinced the exclusion of gay and lesbian people from the institution of civil marriage does not substantially further any important governmental objective. (p.67-69)"
You can download a pdf of the full opinion at http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article…
or http://www.iowacourts.gov/Supreme_Court/
152
@143, 144 - just curious -- when was religion invented? I can't imagine how you could possibly know that, even if we could agree on a definition. But if we had a time machine, I'd put my money on religion being first. 'Course, we don't, so that's easy to say.
153
111, 134, 137.... You all got my (non-trans gay male) blood boiling so hard I was very tempted to rattle off individual responses to each of your "concerns" about the well being of trans folks, but why bother? The reality is, if you are truly coming from a place of care and compassion, you need to educate yourselves. You've obviously done some outdated reading by some straight white males with PhDs pathologizing a group they don't have any intention of understanding, or maybe you read an article by some second-wave feminist or lesbian separatist who sadly never took the time to get to know their trans brothers and sisters, and wound up taking them down instead of the actual oppressor. In any case your intentions may have been good, but it's time to update your research. There's a lot of great literature that's been put out on the trans experience in the last decade that is written by transgendered authors. If I wanted to gain a deeper understandings of the African American experience I would read a book by an African American, not some white "expert" who at worst may have a racist agenda but at best has the audacity to think he or she can fully understand what it is to live another's life. Reconsider your sources. Or your intentions. Are you concerned enough for these people to hear what they have to say? If not, you don't really get to keep calling it concern. It's just bigotry.
154
Is myycinderella/Shelby still around? If so, she should definitely post her question at Scarleteen.com: http://www.scarleteen.com/cgi-bin/forum/… It's very likely (but not guaranteed) that she won't get comments that she's a troll, that she should get an abortion, that she doesn't have parenting skills, etc. etc.
155
@152 - sorry, should have been more specific. long before the current dominant religion (christianity) was invented.
marriage is a tradition that has been around longer than any church-invented definition of what it should and should not be.
marriage is a tradition that has been around longer than any church-invented definition of what it should and should not be.
156
On the other hand, wouldn't it be more interesting and effective if straight people did boycott marriage? Do I need to remind everyone about a little thing called the Boston Tea Party. Let's focus on getting everyone equals rights (which goes beyond marriage rights) and less time buying into the wedding industrial complex. Fuck weddings! Everyone keeps saying they are a neceaary part of our culture. Well, what would the world look like without this right of passage? Do we really know? No. Because everyone is too afraid to not get married. Stop focusing on marriage. It's a bullshit institution that typically kills relationships.
157
Frankly, there aren't enough straight ppl interested in our cause to make a difference by boycotting. Plus, the reason the Boston Tea Party worked is because they boycotted something essential to the economy of the boycotted party.
Even if everyone stopped officially getting married, I'm not sure it could have a big enough effect to change laws.
Even if everyone stopped officially getting married, I'm not sure it could have a big enough effect to change laws.
158
Dear Dan,
I love you. I am in love with you. You are my idol. I would carry your children were I to spontaneously sprout a uterus. Therefore, it is with great love and affection that I say:
What the fuck.
How can any thinking person not love Glee? Jane Lynch deserves every Emmy they give for her work on that show.
I'm seriously considering not sending you pictures of my dick now. And it's a really, really nice dick.
I love you. I am in love with you. You are my idol. I would carry your children were I to spontaneously sprout a uterus. Therefore, it is with great love and affection that I say:
What the fuck.
How can any thinking person not love Glee? Jane Lynch deserves every Emmy they give for her work on that show.
I'm seriously considering not sending you pictures of my dick now. And it's a really, really nice dick.
159
@42 Oh, it always ends up with horse-sex, doesn't it?? Find an excellent recording of Dan Savage's weirdest conversation ever - about a man who loved his horse SO much he "married" her. And was indignant that Dan asked if the horse was a male or female. I think the institution of allowing two adults - ANY adults, not just sexual and romantic partners, to register to have certain levels of responsibility to each other is the most obvious way out of this argument. I heard a radio show that said a proposal like this was being run by the locals in Utah, and folks seemed to like it. Think of the "Golden Girls" living situation - only the two related women would be able to make decions like enforcing medical directives for each other. If Blanche and Rose wanted to, they could have each other designated as registered life buddies (or some term I haven't thought of yet) and be able to do things like pay each other's mortgages if the other were indisposed... drive the other one's car, etc. Like power of attorney, only a more enriched version. Has anyone else heard about this?
160
The 'trans men everywhere' thing is weird, isn't it? The exact same situation obtains here, in Manchester (UK)- In fact, there are plenty of trans women around too, but they're much less visible. Whilst I think there are several factors at work here, the biggest by far is just that trans men get far less hassle, both within and without the 'queer' community. Partly this is because ftms normally 'pass' better (this in turn perhaps to do with the way male is the cultural 'default' recognition in ambiguous situations- show people someone with a beard and breasts, which is a fair description of many trans people of both directions at some point in their transition, and they'll read 'man', not 'woman') partly because of the long history of both perhaps-understandable mistrust and straightforward and unjustifable nastiness towards trans women within the lesbian feminist community (I call upon sally R above as an example) and partly, I reckon, because of good old-fashioned misogyny, which tends to scorn those with feminine characteristics (for comparison, think of the difference in attitude towards butch lesbians and effeminate gay men). Trans women are accordingly way more likely to become socially isolated recluses, afraid of going outside because of abuse and attack, and even if they're not, are far less likely to feel 'cool' or accepted in mixed queer spaces. Consequently, a lot of us retreat into 'ftm-only' social spaces, rather than showing up in gay and lesbian bars. And if we do pass and are confident, we're probably also nevertheless much less likely to identify ourselves to you than trans guys- even as a very happy, confident and definitely out ftm woman, who does go to all those places, and damn well dances once she's there, I'm still cautious about who I tell, as I've had some really bad reactions. The thing Dan says is true too, up to a point, but doesn't register that a LOT of trans men are gay or gay-leaning bi-, and that a pretty fair number of them were 'straight' before they transitioned, and that vice-versa, a fair portion of the equally large number of trans women who mainly like girls presented as gay men before they transitioned, since this identity gave them more room to exhibit 'feminine' characteristics.
More...
161
sorry- errata- 'very happy confident and definitely out mtf woman' I should say and 'mtf-only social spaces'. I always get those acronyms the wrong way round, because it just sounds like the on that starts with the F ought to describe women. I fact, counter-intuitiveness is only one of the many problems with them, but you've gotta use the words people know...
162
Now that Maine, with its larger percentage of older Xians, and bite-me-you-non-voting-a##hole younger voters, has thrown the GBLT community under the decrepit bus, I have a new plan. But you have to join in, or I'm just someone with a folding table in front of the church.
Let's save America and the sanctity of marriage for the good Xians. They've been so worried about us, we forgot to worry about them. And what is more worrying, and against the scriptures, than divorce?
Let's get those petitions going, in all 50 states. Set up in front of churches, and keep it kind and helpful. Marriage must be protected -- NO MORE DIVORCE.
We'll just settle for all the economic and social responsibilities and rights, and take them under 'partnership'. Or any other name.
But "Marriage" must be protected, and since Xians aren't taking that final step, we must help them. Let's get anti-divorce laws on the books in every state.
Sure it won't work. But they'll have to fight it, which will amuse us, and their money will go elsewhere than the fight against GBLT rights.
Works for me. It'll work for you. Really. Go. Do. Enjoy.
Let's save America and the sanctity of marriage for the good Xians. They've been so worried about us, we forgot to worry about them. And what is more worrying, and against the scriptures, than divorce?
Let's get those petitions going, in all 50 states. Set up in front of churches, and keep it kind and helpful. Marriage must be protected -- NO MORE DIVORCE.
We'll just settle for all the economic and social responsibilities and rights, and take them under 'partnership'. Or any other name.
But "Marriage" must be protected, and since Xians aren't taking that final step, we must help them. Let's get anti-divorce laws on the books in every state.
Sure it won't work. But they'll have to fight it, which will amuse us, and their money will go elsewhere than the fight against GBLT rights.
Works for me. It'll work for you. Really. Go. Do. Enjoy.
164
Seriously? The reason there are so many more FTMs than MTFs is that it's a lot more fun to be a guy than a girl. I think in a lot of cases it doesn't have to do with having felt "wrong" from birth at all. I think a hell of a lot of women don't really feel "feminine" and in our fair city if you don't really feel girly, being a FTM is practically encouraged. My butch friend actually says she feels pressure to transition (or at least make her community switch her pronoun) by her tranny friends. Which is fine, be what you want to be, but I have a lot more sympathy for those who were truly body dysmorphic from birth than for those who think that being a lesbian just isn't queer enough and that dickies slacks are cute.
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