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Girl Seeking Girl

November 5, 2009

I'm a 20-year-old girl, and I've been dating my boyfriend, who is 23, for two years. From the get-go, he has known that I am bi, and like most straight guys, he's happy to be with a girl who likes girls.

The thing is, I am too shy to go out and hit on a girl. Getting a man was the easy part, but getting a girl who is willing to fuck around not only with me but also with my boyfriend is a daunting task. I encourage my boyfriend to talk to women since he is good eye candy. But I get kinda sorta jealous when he actually goes and talks to other women. It's a weird game that gives me a headache. All I want is to satisfy my cravings for a woman—is that too much to ask? Am I just being selfish? Why can't girls just appear in my bedroom?

Crazy About Girls Eternally

Because you're not Logan, CAGE, and there's no such thing as the Circuit (—not yet, anyway, even if the internet kinda sorta comes close.

If watching your boyfriend hit on girls—ostensibly on your behalf—gives you a headache and makes you jealous, then you're going to have to learn to hit on girls yourself, CAGE, either in person or online. And you might have more success landing a willing bisexual girl—a girl who's interested in you and your boyfriend—if you made the passes.

Nice, sexually adventurous girls approached by 23-year-old pieces of male eye candy about two-girls/one-guy threesomes will assume that it's about Eye Candy's fantasies, not the girlfriend's. And if you're hanging back, looking uncomfortable, jealous, and headachy, even a girl who might be up for a threesome is going to read reluctance into your demeanor, presume your boyfriend is pressuring you, and politely decline. Or she's going to think you have the swine flu and decline.

If you want pussy, CAGE, you'll have to take the lead. Remember: It's okay to be geeky and inept and awkward when you're hitting on someone; some people think it's cute, and smooth is overrated when it comes to making passes. (Your boyfriend sounds pretty smooth—what has it gotten you?) Practice a few cheesy lines, something direct and truthful, something along the lines of, "We think you're really hot, and we've always wanted to have a threesome"—and just blurt it out at the next pretty, flirty girl who crosses your paths. If you can't do that, post personal ads online and flirt via e-mail. There are a lot of couples online looking for thirds, CAGE, and you'll increase your odds of success if you offer to be a couple's third in exchange for the woman in the couple taking a turn as the third for you and your boyfriend.

Of course, that might make your boyfriend jealous—but it's his turn, right?

I'm a straight female in her early 20s, currently engaged to a handsome man three years older. We're very happy and we have a strong, healthy relationship, but lately I've been worried about one question: Considering my limited previous sexual experience (before him, it was oral only), is it still possible to have a long, enjoyable sex life with him? I've gotten some (well-intentioned, I'm sure) advice that suggests that we are both making mistakes. I can't have a satisfying sex life without being able to compare him to anyone else, I'm told, and he's making a huge mistake by pairing up with a less experienced partner. I hope that the individuals telling me this are wrong.

I have absolutely zero interest in opening up this relationship, and I do my best to be GGG. He says I'm a great lover and a lot more confident in bed now compared to when we first made love, but I want to improve. Still, I don't want to find out down the road that we made a mistake.

Negligible Experience With Boning

Are you happy? Is he happy? That's all that matters. Just keep those lines of communication open, NEWB, while you continue to explore your sexualities together. And remind yourself every once in a while that even the less experienced partner in a relationship is allowed to have likes and dislikes, offer constructive criticisms, and make suggestions—and sometimes demands. And anyone who is being GGG for her partner has every right to expect GGG from her partner.

Finally, tell the "friends" who're offering you such unhelpful advice—tell those underminers—to go fuck themselves. Some people need to sleep around a bit before they realize what they like and whom they want. That's not the case for everyone. And there are plenty of men and women out there in miserable, sexually dysfunctional marriages who met after both had plenty of experience.

I have a small problem. My niece is 14, and the other day I met her boyfriend. He's a sweet boy, with double-pierced ears and amazing fashion sense. My niece fell for him when she saw him sporting a pink jacket in the hallway of school, which is, of course, the reason my niece likes him. What teenage girl wouldn't want someone to go shopping with? As a middle-aged homosexual myself, I can spot a proto-queer a mile away. Needless to say, my sister loves the boy—he's a perfect gentleman. I'm inclined to let it be. They're only 14; what harm could it do? Then I worry, what if this goes on for years? I don't want her to get hurt. Then again, this boy could just grow up to be a Felix Unger–type heterosexual. Any advice?

A Caring Loving Uncle

It's comforting to think that your niece is safe with this boy, seeing as he's a perfect little gentleman now and likely to be a perfect little pillow-chomping bottom when he grows up (or one of those rare fashion-forward tops). But a study conducted by the University of British Columbia found that gay and lesbian youth—closeted or otherwise—were more likely to get pregnant/impregnate than their straight peers. Because nothing says "I'M NOT GAY!" like a knocked-up 14-year-old girlfriend.

So here's what I'd do if I were you, ACLU: Pull the boy aside for a chat. Begin with, "You seem like a nice kid," and then let him have it: "But if you get my niece pregnant, I will kill you." Now pay attention to the italicized bits in what comes next: "I'd rather you didn't fuck her—she's 14, so are you—but if you need condoms or advice about anything, don't hesitate to ask. I won't repeat anything you ask me about to my sister. And don't think I won't kick your ass just because I'm gay. I can and I will. Oh, and love the jacket—where did you get it?"

The boy will emerge from this harrowing chat aware that his girlfriend has potentially violent family members who are watching out for her—something all 14-year-old boyfriends should be made aware of—and that he can confide in you, the involved gay uncle, privately and about anything. It's unlikely that he'll seize the opportunity to come out to you, ACLU, and it's important that you accept the premise of his heterosexuality (however improbable it might seem) before, during, and after your talk. You'll be nudging him in the direction of coming out to someone, at some point, by setting an example, ACLU, while decreasing the odds that he will do real and lasting harm—read: teen pregnancy—to your niece.

As for breaking her heart, well... you can't protect her from that, and you shouldn't bother to try. That's what comes with being 14. recommended


Comments (113) RSS

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How did CAGE get involved with girls before she met her boyfriend? Or is she one of those "bisexual" girls who's never actually had sex or a relationship with another woman -- until she's with a guy who's gung-ho for a threesome?

Good advice to NEWB and ACLU.
Posted by PGofHSM on November 3, 2009 at 7:42 PM · Report this
Good advice as always! Especially for the 14 year olds. And yah, when you're 14 your heart breaks about every other day or so over something that when you look back on it at like 17 or 40 seems really trivial. It's part of life and sometimes life hurts, if you're living it.
Posted by sketchygrrl on November 3, 2009 at 7:43 PM · Report this
As always, pretty brilliant advice... especially to ACLU.
Posted by Drew_in_the_Lou on November 3, 2009 at 8:00 PM · Report this
If CAGE is so jealous of her boyfriend flirting with other girls, how is she going to react when he is BONING them in front of her?

It seems like she just wants to get some pussy, and decided that having a threesome would be the best way of going about it...
Posted by motek on November 3, 2009 at 8:14 PM · Report this
If CAGE is so jealous of her boyfriend flirting with other girls, how is she going to react when he is BONING them in front of her, during the threesome?
I think she needs to re-examine this whole threesome thing, and maybe ask permission from her boyfriend to have sex with a girl by herself.
Posted by motek on November 3, 2009 at 8:28 PM · Report this
I don't think CAGE wants a threesome at all. I think she (perhaps) just likes the social idea of being a bi girl and has never really had any experience with it. For her, I think having a threesome would be a mistake because she doesn't seem confident and assertive enough to clearly state her wants, needs, desires, and RULES for the threesome. My advice: get some good girl-on-girl porn and masturbate. Odds are, you're not bi, you're just one of those girls who likes looking at other ladies naked but has no interest in being with one emotionally or sexually.

But, I might be wrong. It's hard to gain a good perspective without more detail, but that's how it read to me.

Love the advice to ACLU! Gay or not, this 14-year-old boy needs the snot scared out of him so he thinks twice about pressuring the niece into anything she isn't ready for. Then again, that's all part of the experience, anyway. Perhaps he should talk to his sister and see that his niece has been thouroughly scared into keeping her uterus empty as well. 14-year-old girls are just as stupid as 14-year-old boys and have no business getting knocked up (much less having sex).
Posted by Nikki in MN on November 3, 2009 at 10:09 PM · Report this
Nikki-- why on earth would you question this woman's bi identity just because she's too shy to hit on girls? I'm 20, was lesbian-identified for several years, have started calling myself bi, and lo and behold, something in me made me shyer as I got older and now I have a boyfriend and trouble talking to girls. It definitely happens.
Posted by inaheartlock on November 3, 2009 at 10:21 PM · Report this
Why is it ok to be a dick to teenage boys dating a relative (ACLU)? Why do we need to perpetuate this ridiculous stereotype of the teenage male as a heartless, selfish horn-dog who needs to be met with wariness, scorn and overt threats of violence? I know that I, and the vast majority of my male friends, would have never been able to stomach Dan's little "pep talk" at that tender age. They would have either cut off all ties with this girl and her batshit family or called the police (because, honestly, this comes down to an adult verbally assaulting a minor and threatening physical violence). Why keep supporting the sexist, shit-brained idea that girls are delicate flowers needing protection from evil evil penis-wielding devils, when it completely ignores the fact that 14 year olds, male, female, straight, bi, whatever, are fragile beings who don't need nosy and arrogant adults making their lives any more difficult. I am surprised to see such draconian and outdated advice from such a usually enlightened column.
Posted by dkkkdkkdkajsklfj on November 3, 2009 at 10:26 PM · Report this
ADoodle 9

Presumably you are the one that initiated these "inexperienced lover" concerns, both in your own mind, and to your friends. Sounds like you have only 2 options, neither of which you favor: stop worrying, or open up your relationship.

If you find out down the road that you two made a mistake (which maybe you won't), you'll probably have 4 options: suffer silently in your sex life, cheat (I hear this one's popular), break up, up your relationship.
Posted by ADoodle on November 3, 2009 at 10:28 PM · Report this
You have GOT to be kidding. Pink jackets make people gay? What - is this 1958? If my uncle stuck his nose into my relationship business when I was 14, I'd tell him to go fuck himself. Once the boyfriend tells the girl what her uncle has done, she's just going to avoid him forever - AND RIGHTLY SO.

Middle-aged uncle: go get a life of your own for Christ's sake.
Posted by Sublimate Much? on November 3, 2009 at 10:39 PM · Report this
Rob L 11
The (www link didn't work for me, could you double check it?

I loved the advice to ACLU! Oh to be a 14 year old proto-gay today, so much better than in 1968.
Posted by Rob L on November 3, 2009 at 10:42 PM · Report this
7 - Please note that it is not my intention to come off as being mean or anti-queer here. The reason I question it is because it doesn't say in her letter if she thinks of girls when she gets off, if she wants to be in an intimate relationship with a girl, or if she's just thinking it's socially hip to go kiss a girl. Without more information, it's reading to me like one of those letters from guys who question their sexuality because they like anal play.

I'm aware of the fact that most people know their sexual orientation regardless of whether they've been intimate with a man or woman, but the tone I'm getting from the few details in this letter make me think she may not be bi once she actually is able to be with a woman.

My opinion - take it for what it's worth.
Posted by Nikki in MN on November 3, 2009 at 10:53 PM · Report this
Posted by Nikki in MN on November 3, 2009 at 11:02 PM · Report this
it's the same one as in the column.
Posted by Nikki in MN on November 3, 2009 at 11:02 PM · Report this
I got a good piece of advice from a friend. I was talking to him about a girlfriend(who was my prior girlfriend and I's girlfriend for a bit) who claimed to be bi but was giving me mixed signals. He said, "Hybrid, she's not bi till she licks pussy". Crude but effective.

If CAGE isn't into the whole threesome thing she shouldn't do it. I did one once with a later reluctant girlfriend and it was an absolute disaster.
Posted by Hybrid Vigor on November 3, 2009 at 11:04 PM · Report this
white hotel 16
Can we all please stop presuming that bi women don't know their own minds? Thanks.
Posted by white hotel on November 4, 2009 at 12:11 AM · Report this
NEWB: How long have you been with the boy? Way I see things, either you end up with him long-term, which means you've found someone incredibly compatible with you in all ways and you'd be a fool to junk that, or else you'll drift apart in due time, in which case he'll be the start of your experience. No need - and indeed no point - in rushing your experience now.

CAGE: As much as Dan talks about the advantages of professional sex workers, I wonder why they never come up in the "I'm bi but I require that the girl not threaten the relationship and not bring her own baggage along" discussions. Economics and ego aside, hookers are the perfect complication-free experimentation girls.
Posted by ChiTodd on November 4, 2009 at 12:24 AM · Report this
18 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
19 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
I love @7 who says to not question CAGE's bi identity. And then relates going from lesbian-identified to bi to functionally straight herself without, apparently, ever having slept with women. Just like CAGE.

But here's why @7 and CAGE may actually be lesbian and just find it hard to act on it: Getting guys is EASY. No big emotional risk (if they're lesbian). No high stakes (if they're lesbian). Little chance of being rejected (they're offering sex to guys, after all).

Asking girls out could be hard because there IS an emotional risk. The stakes feel a lot higher when you're sexually and emotionally attracted to someone rather than just doing the easy and expected thing (getting a guy). And girls often say "no". Most girls, being straight, even say "no" to guys. Most girls, being straight, certainly would say "no" to girls.

So do the right thing. Figure out what you really what. And then disclose. I know they're just guys, but they're still human and have feelings. If you might be deciding in 10 or 20 years that you're really more into women, you should let them know so both of you can each decide to roll those big dice. A little "I'm bi" and discussing hot, theoretical 3-ways isn't disclosure. For a porn-saturated guy, it's bait for a potentially loveless and increasingly sexless marriage.

Real lesbians don't want a hairy biped in the corner jacking off. Hopefully the hairy biped will read this in time.

And why don't people believe you when you say you're bi? As Dan has said, because most "bi" people go on to exclusively gay or straight relationships. Some remain bi but it is tiny fraction, ask anyone who's 30 or 40. The operative word in, "I'm 20 and have been bi for two years." isn't "bi", it's "two years".
Posted by DavidMMTL on November 4, 2009 at 3:08 AM · Report this
@8 brings up an interesting point.

I'd slightly amend Dan's advice to NOT alienate the 14 year old kid. It's totally possible for ACLU to show the 14 year old boy that he cares about his niece and doesn't want her to end up pregnant, but also wants to let the boy know that he's willing to provide assistance without judgment.

It would probably also help if ACLU didn't let on to the kid that he's gay, unless his mannerisms are so fierce that he can't camouflage his gayness at all. If his mannerisms are that fierce, trust, if ACLU is nice and helpful to this kid without being threatening, this kid might come out to ACLU or come to ACLU for advice on coming out. Now, at that point, ACLU would be well within his rights to assert to the kid to come clean about his gayness to the niece, so that she's aware, but then I'd also be talking to the niece and offering her "if you need somebody to talk to about this, tell your mom - if you feel you can't tell her or a counselor, come to me and I'll talk to your mom for you".
Posted by MT3 on November 4, 2009 at 3:18 AM · Report this
I agree with previous posters that if CAGE can't stand watching her boyfriend flirt with girls, that she will lose it watching him bone another girl.

My interpretation of her letter seems to be that she wants to be with girls, and maybe her boyfriend tells her that if she is with one by herself, then is it cheating, so he has to be there, which would make it a threesome. So she would accept this because she likes the guys and she wants to get with a girl, but she doesn't know how to approach a girl for a threesome.

I disagree wtih Dan's advice to trade up with another couple and be their third just to get a threesome with her boyfriend. While yes, it would satisfy her need to be with a woman, twice, it also means she would be with another man. I can't forsee her boyfriend being okay with that, and it doesn't seem to be what she wants either.
Posted by Wants a Threesome too on November 4, 2009 at 5:02 AM · Report this
A threat as a warm-up to eliciting a confidence? Your mind went AWOL on your advice to ACLU. Please don't advise people to tell others they're going to kill them. We have enough thugs and wannabe thugs without such promptings.
Posted by severance on November 4, 2009 at 5:28 AM · Report this
CAGE, if you want to be with a woman, go be with a woman--without your boyfriend. Figure out what, and who, you want. Most lesbians won't want to get with you as long as you have a boyfriend, by the way. They think you'll waste their time. Finding another woman who's bicurious would probably be your best bet.

NEWB, it sounds to me like you've been asking your friends for sex advice. Stop. There are only two people whose opinions count here: yours, and your fiance's. Focus on what you have now, not what might happen in the future. Have fun figuring out how to keep things intriguing in the bedroom, and trust yourself to cope with difficulties as they arise. He seems to trust you to do so, and that's what counts, right?

ACLU, talk to your niece instead of her boyfriend. Tell her she can come to you with questions about dating and birth control, and you'll respect her privacy. (Maybe you could give her a ride to Planned Parenthood, where she can talk with a nonrelative about all of her birth control options.) If she asks you if you think her boyfriend's gay, be honest. Otherwise, let her learn what she needs to learn on her own schedule.

Threatening the boyfriend isn't the way to build a connection with him. Treat him with respect, and see if he's someone who'll want to come to you for advice.
Posted by My Name Here on November 4, 2009 at 5:54 AM · Report this
I completely agree with #8 and #10. Dan's advice to UCLA was terribly misguided and pretty much guaranteed to backfire. It's not UCLA's place to "pull aside" his niece's bf and talk to him about anything, much less threaten to kill him if he gets the girl pregnant, which is none of his damn business in the first place.

And if I were the bf, I would not only hate this man for threatening me, I would also not believe him for a minute when he says whatever I tell him will not be repeated to the girl's mother. He will most likely revoke that promise & then justify it by saying it's for my own good.

I think the boy should go to his gf & say "Your nosy uncle just threatened me." She should at least be kept informed of this idiot's intrusion, regardless of his so-called good intentions.
Posted by wayne on November 4, 2009 at 5:58 AM · Report this
Oh, and NEWB, if you want sex advice from a source other than your fiance, get your hands on the books "She Comes First" and "He Comes Second," by Ian Kerner. They're very detailed, and not condescending. sells 'em.
Posted by My Name Here on November 4, 2009 at 6:10 AM · Report this
To "8": I can see where you're coming from, but stop and think. YOU may not be an "evil evil penis-weilding devil" - but that doesn't mean that men aren't capable of doing young women harm. Some guys DO display predatory behaviour, even those who identify with themselves and other people as a "nice guy". Especially at an age when they're wrestling with an enormous amount of testosterone and insecurities related to "proving" their masculinity. So it is at precisely that 'tender age' you speak of when young men SHOULD be having the message hammered into their heads that pressuring people into sex to satisfy your own needs is not acceptable, and that sex without protection has serious consequences! It's very easy to accept that information during an informal chat; harder to keep it in mind and make intelligent decisions when you're inexperienced and you have a raging boner. In the light of the fact that sex with minors is actually illegal and can result in pregnancy - something few 14-yr-olds of either gender are equipped for - I think a little fear is healthy. Better a boy with wet pants than babies having babies and/or venereal disease.
Posted by caughtjester on November 4, 2009 at 7:06 AM · Report this
Freche_Lola 28
Love the reference to Logan's Run.
Posted by Freche_Lola on November 4, 2009 at 7:08 AM · Report this
TheLando 29
Proto-queer ... that's a term I'm going to need to start using.
Posted by TheLando on November 4, 2009 at 7:28 AM · Report this
I find 8's disgust at the "delicate flower" concept a little disconcerting. Certainly, not all girls are "delicate" (behaviour-wise). But that doesn't mean that they don't have any vulnerabilities, or that they don't deserve adults' protection from harm. Part of the problem is the fact that society (including in some cases parents and teachers) conditions young men to be aggressive, and to have a high libido, and for girls to be sweet and compliant. Teen books and movies are especially guilty. Look at twilight - masculine, all-powerful, literally predatory Edward coupled with clumsy, vulnerable, helpless but devoted Bella. Nothing suss. Honestly though - it's fear of a smacked bottom that keeps a child from running onto the highway, or putting that knife in the powerpoint.
I'm not saying I like violence in itself. But how many teenagers are going to turn down sex for fear of "a serious discussion?"
Posted by nothingsuss on November 4, 2009 at 7:32 AM · Report this
white hotel 31
#20: I take issue with this:

'And why don't people believe you when you say you're bi? As Dan has said, because most "bi" people go on to exclusively gay or straight relationships. Some remain bi but it is tiny fraction, ask anyone who's 30 or 40. '

What, so anyone in a monogamous relationship isn't bi? That's nonsensical. Bisexuality is a sexual orientation, not a behaviour - we're bi if we're single, in a relationship, or fucking men, women and trans people every chance we get. We're bi no matter whom we're dating.

Posted by white hotel on November 4, 2009 at 7:37 AM · Report this
I GAVE the "i will kill you if she gets hurt but in the meantime you damn well better know how to use and get condoms" talk, unprovoked, to my little sister's boyfriend, except in my case it was "Don't think that just because I'm a girl, I can't and won't kick your..." There's an 8 year difference between my sister and me.

And my sister found out about my talk, and honestly, despite being just 14 at the time, didn't really care. she said she "expected" me to be protective, because that's what sisters do. And the boy didn't run off (unfortunately....j/k) because I appeared "bat-shit crazy."

And I will give a similar talk to my little brother's future gf's later.

Dan has said before that gay and straight children/teens alike should not be sharing beds with their significant others, and I think this advice is just as equal-treating, in that I'm sure he would say something (as would I) if ACLU had to give this talk to a nephew's possibly-lesbian-girlfriend.

Not saying that girls are delicate flowers, just that children in general deserve protection. Sure, they have lives to live, but just because baby deer have lives to live, doesn't mean mama deer just leaves them alone in front of a wolf with no camouflage skills.

Sorry, I'm chock full-o-analogies today.
Posted by Kickass Protective Flower on November 4, 2009 at 7:39 AM · Report this
Hey, that would be a great name for a gay punk band: The Pillowbiters!
Posted by wayne on November 4, 2009 at 7:56 AM · Report this
singing cynic 34
My uncle gave that talk to my boyfriend when I was 14 and then I didn't talk to him for two years.

Now I get it, though.
Posted by singing cynic on November 4, 2009 at 8:55 AM · Report this
I agree with Nikki et al. This girl may very well be bi, but right now she has no idea. I don't think it's like homo- or heterosexuality, where you don't need to fuck anyone to know that you've definitely closed off the possibility of sex with one gender, because the thought of it just doesn't get you off. (Granted, it may take years of removing the psychological/social layers to fully come to that realization.) Being bi is about being open to possibilities, not closing them off; I think it requires exploration. And guess what? Lots of straight/gay identified people are theoretically open to different things, because we find them HOT. I'm a straight woman who gets off to lesbian porn, and frequently discusses threesome options with my boyfriend. Even if I could get over my awkwardness and hit on a girl (which, like NEWB, I can't), I'd still be just another adventurous straight girl. And I'm pretty sure that's all that NEWB is, too--she just needs the "bi" label to feel empowered about her feelings and this decision. Grow up, I say.
Posted by Still straight on November 4, 2009 at 8:58 AM · Report this
Yikes. I meant CAGE, not NEWB.
Posted by Still straight on November 4, 2009 at 9:00 AM · Report this
a.james 37
Wow, people really got their rubber pants in a bunch--did y'all piss yourselves when the Neighbourhood Cranky Old Man shook his fist and yelled "You durn kids!!"? Or try to literally "fuck yourselves" the first time you heard that phrase?
No one with two braincells to rub together would interpret that as a THREAT, and actual, bona fide, sincere will to kill, destroy, or eliminate the 14yrold. It's scary, sure, because you have this older dude putting you in your place, basically saying "don't fuck up. Or you'll have hell to pay." But I don't think Dan's advice is to take the boy to the shed, show him your ax, gun, an knife collection, and then stress the importance of using protection. He's obviously using a well-know, well-interpreted figure of speech to stress that knocking up the niece will not be taken lightly.

On that note; it's getting harder and harder to tell the teenage queers apart from the trendy teenage boys. I know I had a lot of younger friends in HS who were quite androgynous-pretty males; and last I was volenteering at my teen drop-in centre they were ALL rather androgynous-pretty queer-acting well-groomed fashionable flirty kids [when they weren't affecting dourness]: boys, girls, gay, straight and everything inbetween.
Posted by a.james on November 4, 2009 at 9:19 AM · Report this
to NEWB: my girlfriend is one of the most talented, experimental and varied lovers I've ever been with, and she learned most of what she knows in a 20 year monogamous relationship. So yeah, that can totally work. It sounds like you are doing the right things with your guy - the advantage of a committed relationship is that it can be a safe place to experiment with someone you can really communicate with - make the most of it, your friends are probably just jealous anyway.

More good ways to find out what you like and bring it to the table are books, porn (video, pictures, whatever you like), and lots of experimenting by yourself. Don't be afraid to try something and decide you don't like it!
Posted by octothorpe on November 4, 2009 at 9:19 AM · Report this
@Still Straight, you're assertion that gay and straight people can know their orientation before any sexual experience, but bisexual people can't is completely ridiculous and illogical. Do they not have the same desires that lead them to their conclusion?

At only 20 years old its really not surprising that she hasn't been with a woman sexually yet, especially since she's been with him for two years. She never says that her experience with men is large, although she has none with woman, which suggests to me she may have limited experience in all arenas, men or women.

And also, stop assuming that just because you are an adventurous, yet straight, woman that all woman who are bisexual are just that. You sound much older and much more experienced and you obviously know what you want, allow CAGE to do the same before making assumptions.
Posted by saturn on November 4, 2009 at 9:23 AM · Report this
CAGE: If you've got jealousy issues with your boy just hitting on other girls, how are you going to feel about him f***ing someone else in front of you?

Just a thought...
Posted by meggaroni&cheese on November 4, 2009 at 9:30 AM · Report this
So... no gay marriage in Maine :(
/que dan rage
nice to know that political biase and general intolerance is alive and well America, November, 2009.
Posted by stormcrow on November 4, 2009 at 9:40 AM · Report this
Sir Vic 42
@34 - That is because, at age 14, no one knows anything. If adults can't give guidance to 14 year old boys, then we are all lost.
That's a good age for a young man to start learning that his actions can very well have life-or-death consequences. Being scared shitless is often the way men learn the hard truths about life before they make tragic mistakes. If the boy in question has a real father in his life, he might get that instruction at home. (Double pierced ears & pink jackets @14 hint that the boy's father may not be one for "tough love".) If not, some one else from "The Village" needs to step in.

We have centuries of case studies about 14 year old boys and the stupid things they can do. Let's not pretend that now they can suddenly get by without elder guidance just because they have an iPhone. Dan's wording may be a bit harsh, but the general advice is sound.
Posted by Sir Vic on November 4, 2009 at 9:53 AM · Report this
Seriously? We have enough problems with the conservative bigots coming up with ridiculous stereotypes. Do we really need to come up with our own? It's not 1982, and it's quite common to see young men wearing pink, with pierced ears and not wanting to give a guy a handjob.

This creepy uncle shouldn't be talking to the boyfriend, he should talk to the niece about personal responsibility. What the fuck were you thinking, Dan?
Posted by AlanRI on November 4, 2009 at 10:06 AM · Report this
@8 -

imho, teenage boys are good at pretending to be perfect gentlemen when facing a much older and somewhat intimidating and put the opposite act on around their peers. Throw in raging hormones and you've got a perfect recipe for a knocked up 14 yo girl.
Posted by naked chilli on November 4, 2009 at 10:21 AM · Report this
xjuan 45
Hey, NEWB: Give it some time. You have a great relationship, an open line for communicating your needs and wants, a nice boyfriend. Don't let your friends' envy ruin it for you. Actually, the best part of your relationship comes with time, by learning the lessons and the positions and discovering what you like best and why. You need no comparison to know what makes you happy. Enjoy what you have, which is a lot!
Posted by xjuan on November 4, 2009 at 11:24 AM · Report this
ATTENTION OLD PEOPLE: ACLU talked about the boy's "amazing fashion sense" and Dan mentioned him being "fashion forward." NEWS FLASH: The wearing of pink by teenage straight boys has been not only acceptable but trendy for the past couple of years. Even in the midwest. It was popular in L.A. 4 or 5 years ago, by now it has even made it's way into jesusland. In 2009, a boy wearing a pink jacket to school is not "fashion forward" or a likely candidate for a proto-queer, he is probably a mundane straight boy that is a little behind the times. Thanks, you can now go back to your fantasy world where old queens know everything.
Posted by jabuhrer on November 4, 2009 at 11:24 AM · Report this
i consider myself a "mostly straight" female, but have been known to get down with chicks and am certainly open to the idea of bringing my husband into it. however, i too am shy when it comes to hitting on girls, and i also don't like the idea of my husband doing it. i did not write this letter to dan, but i can certainly understand her frustration. guys are easy to get into bed. girls are less so. its intimidating.

CAGE may find that she is NOT actually comfortable sharing her boyfriend with another girl. the fantasy is hot, but the reality may be different. it doesn't make her any less into girls - it just makes her not into sharing. it doesn't even make her less into threesomes - maybe she'd be perfectly fine getting into it with two people who she doesn't care about.

this doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not she's bi. its about whether or not she's poly.
Posted by forgot my password so i'm anon on November 4, 2009 at 12:18 PM · Report this
I'm bisexual and in a monogamous relationship with a man. I've previously been in several long-term monogamous relationships with women. In between I've been with both. I'm still shy around both men and women, though women more so, because it's frankly easier with men and less pressure. I don't think shyness invalidates your sexual orientation.
I am sick of people assuming they "know" about bisexuals in a way they would never presume with someone straight or gay. CAGE is only 20. She may be a lesbian, she may be bi, it may all be a phase but that can be true of anyone. Can we all just stop second guessing bisexuals? We're not confused, we're just open-minded, and as entitled to our sexual identity as anyone else.
Posted by wallflower3 on November 4, 2009 at 12:49 PM · Report this
@39: You're right, I was a bit harsh. And my differentiation of bisexuality from hetero/homo orientation may be completely absurd, you are right. I was just trying to explain how I have viewed the difference, as a woman who is nominally attracted to both sexes (as bisexual women are) and yet identifies as straight. Studies have shown that women can get physiologically aroused by watching or thinking about ANY combo of genders having sex, which is why I emphasized the exploratory (rather than desire) aspect of bisexuality. Women, apparently, are more fluid in their desires/arousal, so I would think that the desire alone may not be enough for some of us to go proclaiming our bisexuality from the rooftops.

Btw, I am only two years older than CAGE. In fact, I saw a lot of myself in her letter. The only differences? I don't get jealous easily, and I don't label myself bisexual without ever having had an experience with a woman. I think those two things are very related; they both show a young woman who may not be entirely confident in herself and her identity. She is not confident that her boyfriend loves only her despite the flirting, and she is not confident enough to assert her sexual desires without the comfort of a label. It is understandable and all too common for us ladies (does every dude have to go around calling himself "poly" first before he can ask his girlfriend for a threesome?). As long as she is able to get some self-confidence, I don't care if she calls herself bi, straight, poly, whatever.
Posted by Still straight on November 4, 2009 at 12:56 PM · Report this
@8 - "14 year olds, male, female, straight, bi, whatever, are fragile beings who don't need nosy and arrogant adults making their lives any more difficult."

the straight up petulance in this sentence alone makes me think you must be 14 yourself. you know, when i was 14, i thought this too. then i grew up just a few more years and realized how fucking leotarded that was.

most 14 year olds today have to worry about which boy/girl likes them or what shirt they should wear this morning or which pimple cream ACTUALLY works. their lives are not all that "difficult".

if you want to see a 14 year old understand what a difficult life is, go ahead and stay out of their business. let them get pregnant. let them figure out how to raise a family on their own. i tell you right now, i'm in my late 20's, educated, and completely self supportive, and its fucking difficult for ME to have a family... i can't even imagine if i was 14!

i guess maybe in a few years you'll look back and realize the silliness of your comment.
Posted by justme on November 4, 2009 at 1:40 PM · Report this
I find with 14 year old boys that it really sinks in to tell them that if they knock someone up it is a lifetime. AT 14 they could be $23,000 in debt before they graduate. Hey did you know if someone get any public assistance the DADDY gets billed for the entire thing? Yup, food stamps, medical the whole works. With interest. Not to mention the next 18 years of child support. Much more effective than threatening death, which is not really a valid threat. Or bodily harm, which should not be a valid threat.

And to the questioners of the girl on girl desire. Who ever said someone had to be verifiably BI to get to have an experience? Yeesh, if that was the case none of us would ever be gay or straight, because you would think we should (somehow magically) try it before commiting? Let the girl have her threesome or two or ten and let HER decide what the heck she is.
Posted by jojo on November 4, 2009 at 2:32 PM · Report this
Uh yeah. Pink might mean he's proto-gay. It may also mean he's proto-douchebag.…
Posted by oohahh on November 4, 2009 at 3:08 PM · Report this
The young couple would be best advised by an uncle who would have a sit down with BOTH of them. That loving uncle would discourage them from doing something that they might not be ready for. Then he would ask them what they know about birth control, and if they know how to get some.

If I found out that my uncle or anybody did that to one of my bfs when I was 14, I would have been extremely pissed at him. Good way to ruin a relationship.
Posted by Barbara on November 4, 2009 at 3:17 PM · Report this
justme, I was just about to agree with you and then I remembered what MY life was like as a teenager and I thought...would I want to go back? Heck NO! Being an adult is much more fun than being a teenager. When you are a teen, you are too old for things you used to enjoy and too young for the new things you want to do. Most "family" or "kid" entertainment places cater to the under 12 crowd, while any place to do that isn't babyish doesn't really want teens hanging around (malls, restaurants, etc.) You aren't allowed to make any decisions for yourself, other kids are mean to you but you have to go to school with them, and if you are unfortunate enough to have abusive or dysfunctional parents you basically live in hell with little chance of escape. Of course you are right that the last thing a teenager needs is to get pregnant on top of all that. But I would never, ever trade the difficulties in working, raising my own kids and all the joys and freedoms that go with that, for the hell that is adolescence. I feel sorry for my 13-year-old son sometimes because it is so hard for him to find books, movies and games that are appropriate for his age. (What makes it worse is that he's an advanced reader and can read adult-level books but not all such books contain material that is interesting to him or age-appropriate.) Right now I'm happy to be 39 and NOT a teenager anymore!
Posted by Diagoras on November 4, 2009 at 3:32 PM · Report this
When I was twenty, a young couple I'd just met at a friend's barbecue approached me. Actually, he approached and said "My wife thinks you're beautiful." That was a nice opener because she was over on the blanket, she waved and smiled at me. Instead of making a date for that night, they asked me to dinner later in the week. We enjoyed a great time at a sushi place, then drinks, poetry, etc. at their place. I was trying to pretend I didn't know why I was there and they were happy to not pressure me. The rest of the night was at her direction, down to the last detail. I was comfortable knowing she was in control and she was comfortable knowing a) I wasn't a TOTAL stranger picked up at a bar, b) we'd both had plenty of time to reconsider and c) she'd never have to see me again. We all had a great time and when the sun came up the husband took me for breakfast and dropped me off at home. I like to think they both had as much fun as I did. They certainly seemed to know how to arrange a nice date for three.

I'm straight but wouldn't trade the memory of that night for anything.
Posted by kmlalk on November 4, 2009 at 4:54 PM · Report this
Milbury 56

If you want to enjoy womanflesh, you're going to have to learn to stick your neck out. Why? It's simple. Any "experienced" bisexual woman (regardless of her level of bisexuality) has learned that a sizable percentage of the available women in their area are either "faux-bi" girls looking for free drinks or doing it to satisfy the fantasies of their male S.O. If you're allowing your boyfriend to make the first moves and your body language isn't up to snuff (crossed arms, obvious glaring or ignoring his advances, etc.), they're probably going to put you in the latter category and ignore his "game". Bisexual women (when they're on the prowl) are looking for willing cocks and pussies, not a willing cock and a "barely willing tongue."

Long story short, you'll get better results if you make the first move (even if you get all goofy and tongue-tied). Introduce yourself, flirt a little (or stare at her all googly-eyed and make a comment about her level of attractiveness), then build up your courage and ask her out on a date. By yourself. If your boyfriend is always there, then his presence will be enough to make your intended ladylove wonder if you're doing it because you want to, or because "he" wants you to do it. And no one who isn't a rapist gets off on having sex with the unwilling.


As long as you're enjoying the sex, your husband is enjoying the sex and the both of you are comfortable with talking about your likes and dislikes, the opinions of others are dross. So, whether your husband's penis is the last penis that ever finds it's way inside of your body or the two of you wake up one morning, look into each others' eyes and say 'Swingers club, we need to find one." simultaneously, be thankful for what you've got. There are a lot of people in the world who'd be glad to have listless mechanical sex (as long as it involved another person), so there's no reason to get mentally worked up about your lack of (or his surfeit of) experience.


Barring the word "kill", Dan hit the nail on the head. Even the smartest 14 year old could always use an extra smack upside the head with the clue-by-four. And it's better to float the ideas about pregnancy, child support payments/marriage, contraception, emotional attachments/abuse, etc. *before* you're woken up at 2AM by a frantic call from your sister.

*If* (I'll re-emphasize *IF*) you have the type of relationship with your niece (and hopefully her parents) in which this type of information can be given without hurt feelings, I'd find a neutral area and give the talk to the both of them. Even if it makes their squick-meter hit the red zone. Forewarned is forearmed, and an "adult" chat with a knowledgeable relative can be far more effective than even a hundred government-based "abstinence/abstinence+/sexuality-redefining" programs. It's easy to block out the cacophonous voices of paid shills, blocking out the face of a person who's tried his or her best to lead you towards making sensible decisions is much harder. And yes, I'm saying that as a formerly "fatherless child" who had a few older male relatives around to lead me down the "straight and narrow".
Posted by Milbury on November 4, 2009 at 4:57 PM · Report this
hell yes. and college is the best of both worlds
Posted by 20s are better than teens on November 4, 2009 at 5:25 PM · Report this
@54 - teenage years suck for sure, but everything you listed above (with the exception of possibly having abusive parents) are just trivial things. they are "difficult" in the minds of a teenager of course, (especially one lucky enough to have parents like yourself to guide them and tell them what is or isn't appropriate for their age) but in the grand scheme of things they are not even remotely difficult in the real world. i certainly agree with you that being an adult is way more fun, and i'd NEVER go back... i was just trying to stress to @8 that anyone who thinks that 14 year olds don't need parents or parent figures in their lives is sorely mistaken.
Posted by justme on November 4, 2009 at 5:30 PM · Report this
i also don't think the first gal wants a three-way. she should have some one-on-one experience with girls, who will be much easier to meet if she leaves the boyfriend at home once in a while.
Posted by tobes on November 4, 2009 at 7:25 PM · Report this
The advice to the uncle is ridiculous. Following Dan's script will result in that boy running home to his parents to tell them all about the crazy, violent man who approached him out of nowhere. Next step: a criminal complaint. Please don't take Dan's advice this time.
Posted by happy mom on November 4, 2009 at 10:19 PM · Report this
There's gotta be something missing from ACLU's letter that Dan ran. How else to explain the vehemence of his advice? There was no indication - in the printed letter - that the boyfriend is behaving inappropriately or doing anything that would justify that sort of lecture, especially given its violent tone. It's completely inappropriate for the uncle to say anything to this kid. Let's role-play, shall we?

- Uncle: "[Dan's advice.]"
- Boyfriend: {thinking, what the fuck?}
- Boyfriend to his father: "This old gay guy threatened to kill me today, and also said some really wierd things."
- Boyfriend's father to police: "[Repeat of what his son said.]"
- Police to uncle: "You have the right to remain silent."
Posted by Dan's great but not this time on November 4, 2009 at 11:39 PM · Report this
Retard Yoke 62

+1 to your internets for the Logan's Run reference.

Great advice as usual too.
Posted by Retard Yoke on November 5, 2009 at 2:51 AM · Report this
At first I thought the advice wasn't joined up thinking.

I suppose if you take the line that 1) no amount of experience will quarantee a marriage that becomes sexually dysfunctional, 2) candid sexual commmunication skills (without fear of embarassment and judgement) are by far the most important prevention and salvation, 3) everyones needs are different, and 4) you are happy then that is sound.

I wouldn't criticize the friends at all because they are, at heart, well meaning.

Getting married whilst the fullest expersion of ones sexuality is still work in progress has obvious problems...For example, can the marriage survive if bisexuality becomes a strong sexual need of one or both parties.

7-9 years ago my wife and I were in the same shoes as this couple except we both were inexperienced. We thought we communicated as a couple, we could talk for hours, and we did have mutually orgasmic sex and we were walking-on-air happy in love.

Now we are a bored, miserable, sexually dysfunctional couple that are reeling under the pressure of 3 kids in 2yrs 9.5 months, the youngest of which is 21 months.

In reality we were naive, inhibited and insecure about sex and our ability to communicate about it. Once that was a state of blissful ignorance, but that ballon has popped. With respect to NEWB question we have found out that our sexlife is not meeting our sexual needs without reference to pervious sexual experiences with other people.

Inexperience is working against us and we find it very hard to be exciting, original and creative in bed. Not much new works first time and it is hard dealing with the failures without damaging egos.

By analogy I've seen this occur on the social partner jive dance scene where having a fixed partner soon frustrates the ability learn and recrimination sets in...thats why they recommend changing partners every dance as you get to learn from experience from advanced dancers and a virtuous circle of soaring confidence and self improvement set in without anyone person being lumbered with a bungling amateur for too long
Posted by Mr-Blues on November 5, 2009 at 4:14 AM · Report this
As someone who has dated too many closeted gay guys (trust me, more than one is way too many) I say your advice to ACLU is spot on! Also, I see no problem with threatening a FOURTEEN (!!) year old who has the ability to impregnate another FOURTEEN (!!) year old. Neither one can probably grasp how scary it would be to become teen parents, so a more immediate threat probably does the trick just fine :)
Posted by zarg on November 5, 2009 at 6:11 AM · Report this
I am a 40 year old, petite woman with a manner that causes most people to see me as a soft spoken intellectual sort.... and I've given the "You knock her up or cause her needless pain and I will do you lasting harm." talk to at least a dozen young men over the years (And a similar talk a few girls who seemed to need it).... funny thing is, when delivered in my gentle, intensely interested, sympathetic "I'm just trying to help you see a hazard so you can avoid it" way, these threats seem to hit home more deeply than the harsher version of the lecture.

Dan's reply was spot on and to those who say it's none of the uncle's business- Bull!
Of course it is his business- it concerns the safety and happiness of a little girl who is a part of his family. If these kids were 21, I might agree that he needs to curb his involvement but they aren't 21- they are 14 and still very much in need of guidance and a solid reason NOT to do anything dumb.People this young do not actually believe that they are vulnerable to things like STDs or pregnancy, but they DO believe in more "here and now" threats like getting their asses kicked into the next county by an angry relative.

Posted by Auntie Maim on November 5, 2009 at 6:54 AM · Report this
To Pam Rivers: I love how you post a link to a blog lauding the virtues of one of the most violently anti-gay societies in the world and then complain about Maine failing to pass gay marraige legislation. How do you think that law would have done in Ramallah?
Posted by Hatikva on November 5, 2009 at 7:48 AM · Report this

Mr-Blues, a person who has been in a monogamous relationship for 7-9 years is not a "bungling amateur." Your lack of previous experience doesn't make it impossible for you and your wife to keep your sex life satisfying. Your problem is in your marriage, period. You had too many babies in a ridiculously short period of time, which would strain anyone's sex life. If you need to try different sexual partners, it's because that is what you need now, not because your lack of previous experience destroyed your marital relations. It sounds like you want a scapegoat, and this is a silly thing to pin your problems on. Watch some porn! Get some toys! Don't be so goddamned thin-skinned when you try new things, since you both know that it usually takes a couple of tries to make it work! Neither of you are amateurs, but the more you try to convince yourself that you are, the worse the situation will become.

I know that this post is presumptuous and nagging, and I don't mean to offend you. Just responding to the personal info you posted :)
Posted by sksweet on November 5, 2009 at 8:18 AM · Report this 68
Ok, I'm sure others have put this forward (and in fact I read a few), but being in a relationship and shy around girls doesn't mean she's not bi. Of course, I also agree that the jealousy suggests that she's not ready for a three some.
I'm an out and about bi-girl. When I was CAGE's age, I had never "gone all the way" with a girl, but knew I was bi (how do you heteros know yer straight before you lose your virginity? you just know). Now I'm pushing 30, and have slept and had serious relationships with both men and women. I'm no more bi now than I was then- just older and more experianced. Due to bi-phobia (and simple math- there are more interesteed-in-girls men than interested-in-girls-women), I simply hadn't had a girlfriend YET. I agree that there are girls who just make out with other girls to impress their boyfriends (and trust me, they all come on to me and get rejected), but CAGE doesn't strike me a being like this at all. Personaly I think she just needs to tamp down the jealousy and either take the lead in a 3-some- or open the relationship.
And if this is poorly typed and worded, ah well, I haven't had my cofee yet.
Posted by on November 5, 2009 at 8:19 AM · Report this
Your advice to ACLU was the most uninformed, god-awful piece of rubbish you've ever published in this column. Your desperate attempt to win the admiration of your heterosexual readers makes me want to barf.

The meddling uncle needs to mind his own business. He's obviously in need of a new hobby if he takes this much interest in his 14 year old niece's boyfriend. First of all, this is not 1982 and double pierced ears and a pink jacket do not necessarily read as "gay". Even if the boy is a proto-queer, the niece getting pregnant and/or her heart broken and not the only potential (key word: POTENTIAL not "inevitable") outcomes. They could very well go out for 18 months, the boy may come out to her and they end up being lifelong best friends, with her eventually serving as the "best man" at his commitment ceremony.

Has it occurred to you that if the uncle has the conversation you suggested with the boy that the intimidated boy might go home and tell his parents about the crazy uncle threatening to kill him? I can guarantee you that I'd immediately be calling the cops and telling my son that he has to break it off with the girl and tell her exactly why. How do you think the "caring loving uncle" will enjoy that?

Two final points: (1) The uncle obviously wants the 14 year old boy. I'm amazed that you didn't call him out on this. Oh, that's right, you feel the same way about 14 year old boys. (2) If you're going to cite the UBC study that found that gay/bi teens were more likely to get pregnant/impregnate during their teen years, why didn't you give us the percentages (and confidence intervals) of the gay/bi and het teens who do? It's not like it's 90% vs. 1%. I'm betting it's MAYBE 4% vs 3%. Which would mean that 96% of gay/bi teens don't get pregnant/impregnate, which would again show how horrible your advice to ACLU is.
Posted by drillnspill on November 5, 2009 at 8:24 AM · Report this
If CAGE really is bi (and I'm not saying she isn't), she needs to experience being with a woman by herself before going forward with a threesome. Go out (without the boyfriend) and hit on a girl. If it doesn't work out, there isn't anything lost. Grow a set and hit on someone. You won't know until you try, and you're not going to get anywhere just waiting for someone to hit on you.
Posted by Nikki in MN on November 5, 2009 at 9:01 AM · Report this
There's another fundamental problem with the awful advice to ACLU -- how, exactly, does Uncle "pull the boy aside for a chat"? The letter doesn't state that the Uncle lives with the niece, so is he going to start hanging out at his sister's place after school? In today's world (where, incidentally, wearing pink and having piercings is hardly an indication of sexual orientation), an adult man who says "c'mere little boy" is rightly viewed as a threat to public safety. And an old man who talks to an unrelated boy about sex - especially gay sex - is going to be seen as a nambla freak and, again, rightly locked up.

Dan's response to ACLU is so atrociously bad I have to wonder if he was stoned, drunk and trying to make some kind of point; otherwise, it's hard to fathom how he could publish it.
Posted by Keep your mouth shut on November 5, 2009 at 9:11 AM · Report this
50 and 51: for the most part, when a 14 year old gets preggers in the developed world, it's not considered her problem--hell, it's not even considered the boy's problem. it's the parents who deal with it. adoption, abortion. mom and dad arrange it. the kids go on with their lives. no one expects them to get married, raise a family, get a job, go into debt. please.
Posted by ellarosa on November 5, 2009 at 9:19 AM · Report this
at least in at least moderately educated families.
Posted by ellarosa on November 5, 2009 at 9:21 AM · Report this
@ the people griping about Dan's advice to ACLU - holy smokes, what a group of wusses. Honest to god. Dan didn't say "Threaten to kill the guy", and as for people saying they'd call the cops - holy smokes. The cops would do NOTHING in that situation, I'm guessing. Lastly, to people saying "If I were a parent, I'd tell the kid to break up with the girl, blah blah blah" You would? Really? Talk about over-protective sheep. Correct answer if your son ever comes home whining that a father or uncle or older sister (good job, sis!) threatened to beat their ass if they got their girlfriend knocked-up:
"Oh? Well. There's a simple answer to that - don't get Betty pregnant. If you do, getting your ass beat will be the least of your problems."
Posted by Speechless on November 5, 2009 at 9:45 AM · Report this
@ Ellarosa - yeah, there's a solution - "Do whatever you want, to hell with the consequences, Mommy and Daddy will take care of EVERYTHING." Holy shit.
Posted by Speechless on November 5, 2009 at 9:48 AM · Report this
@60, under what statute is it illegal to tell a kid to be careful with a niece? Did you actually think 1) uncle is supposed to seriously threaten the kids safety or 2) the kid, at 14, is going to run home and tell mom that his girlfriend's uncle warned him not to seed the tweener? What's mom going to say, "hay now! I've always wanted grandkids when I was 36!" ?
Posted by yonush18 on November 5, 2009 at 10:35 AM · Report this
Dan, I usually agree with your advice, but what you have told ACLU doesn't make sense. There is nothing to indicate that this little gay-ish boyfriend is going to impregnate ACLU's 14-year old niece, other than a statistic from UBC. The advice does not address the heart of the question. Rather than threaten and harass this gentle young man, why shouldn't the uncle talk to him frankly about sexuality?
Posted by Keith in TO on November 5, 2009 at 10:36 AM · Report this
@67 we are not proposing to swing, cheat or divorce and start again. That is where marriage and dance differ!

I don't want to reel off the failed trys...Oral (giving or recieving) hygeine issues, doggy frozen frigid too much like anal, toys they are slutty, porn degrading... moving beyond basic procreational sex is proving a cess pit of inexperience, insecurity, inhibition and more profound deeper sexual communication problems than ever Freud came across LOL

In theory the journey of sexual self discovery of a couple should be enyoyable more so than the destination...but it sodding well feels like frozen waste lands, littered with mine fields and becalmed in the doldrums doomed to drift for ever with no end in sight all at once

I that was a be it
Posted by Mr-Blues on November 5, 2009 at 11:38 AM · Report this
@ mr blues... you both need to get the fuck over yourselves if you want to actually fix whats wrong.

doggy style is too much like anal? whose thoughts are those, yours or your wife's? if they're yours then you need to get the stick out of your butt, and if they're hers you need to find out what's really wrong. i suggest you guys get into counseling.

from a non-informed-non-professional-yet-experienced-with-trying-to-incorporate-good-sex-into-new-family-stress point of view, it would appear that your wife is not interested in sex because:

a) she's got 3 freaking kids to chase after - she's exhausted
b) she's feeling self-conscious about her war-torn body (doesn't matter how many times you tell her she's beautiful - she has to adjust to the changes herself)
c) her body has physically changed internally, meaning things that used to get her off simply don't anymore (this happens to those of us who are experienced too)
d) you're putting entirely too much pressure on fixing it for her to feel secure enough to explore

both of you need to lighten the fuck up, have some fun, and get over your hurt feelings and insecurities. if you can't do it on your own, seek the advice of a professional sex counselor.

Posted by justme on November 5, 2009 at 12:34 PM · Report this
Lady M 80
@77 Really? Cause as a teenager, a young teenager, I always felt the best person to talk about sex with was my friend's uncle who dropped in one day to "talk to you frankly about sexuality". I think that gets you arrested here in the South.

Come on. That kind of "threat" is common and I think well followed up with the rest of Dan's advice, which allows the kid to know that there's someone to talk to if he wants to talk. And if not, no emotional scarring done.
Posted by Lady M on November 5, 2009 at 12:37 PM · Report this
Lady M 81
Also, for NEWB. I have learned and experimented more in my seven-year long relationship with one man than I did with all of my other partners combined.
Posted by Lady M on November 5, 2009 at 12:45 PM · Report this
I love Dan Savage. And...scene.
Posted by sistermarymanhattan on November 5, 2009 at 1:18 PM · Report this
@55: HOT
Posted by trilby on November 5, 2009 at 1:21 PM · Report this
Oh Dan, how I wish I had had a 'concerned uncle' like you when I was a 14-year old girl. So much heartache might have been avoided. Love you!
Posted by Magpie on November 5, 2009 at 2:48 PM · Report this
#66 I agree about Pamela Rivers (#18 and #19)...

What the fuck? Why did you give two links to that blog? Am I missing something?
Posted by confused by the rabbit trail on November 5, 2009 at 5:08 PM · Report this

Comment number 8 didn't say that 14 year olds don't need parents, but that they don't need nosy arrogant adults making their life worse. And that's what would happen if a random adult jumped in to make threats rather then engage in respectful conversation.

Why do you assume that the default is that they will get pregnant unless suitably threatened. Depending on where they live, 14 is usually old enough to have had sex education. That doesn't mean no guidance is better then some guidance, but it's insulting to assume that the alternative to threats is pregnancy.

Also, comment 8 might be young (but in my experience 14 year olds don't refer to themselves as fragile), but it's a fallacy to assume they are wrong because you are older (especially when you are only assuming you are older).

Being a teenager is difficult. You may have convinced yourself it wasn't that bad, or had a privileged childhood, but for most youth it means regular disrespect from adults, never being treated as an equal, being seen as incapable of making decisions, legally not allowed to sign a contract, hell, in my state I wasn't even allowed to buy matches for a gas stove at age 17! You may disagree, but I'd rather face the harsh "real world" of being an adult then the "triviality" of being forced to sit next to the same bullies everyday with the school doing nothing and face daily disrespect of being a second class citizen without legal personhood.
Posted by Tobi on November 5, 2009 at 5:40 PM · Report this
I got "the talk/threat" from so many dads as a young teenage guy dating their daughters...didn't really phase me so much as make me laugh a bit from the tension. We'd still fool around, use condoms...nobody got hurt or pregnant. It's just a part of growing up.
Posted by you complainers must not be men on November 5, 2009 at 7:03 PM · Report this
I will be quoting this for years: "seeing as he's a perfect little gentleman now and likely to be a perfect little pillow-chomping bottom when he grows up (or one of those rare fashion-forward tops)."
Posted by hennesea on November 5, 2009 at 10:23 PM · Report this
@79 just me
I could easily rise to the bait. Some specifics

The pressure of family is life not an excuse to give up

Anal is her phobia and she transfers that into gay/bi men hatred because of what she fears they must enjoy doing.

We are both still horny. She will frequently see to her needs in the bath as well as try to initiate sex. We still do have orgasmic basic procreational sex. However, we both easily admit our sex is now formulaic. Collectively attempts to intiate variety and fun are failing more than succeeding. She is in fantastic shape for her age regardless of three kids and it is not only me saying it.

Yes in the long run counselling is going to be essential, but we don't have the financial means to access it for now. I am trying to suggest self help stuff from books.

We are not at all alone with this. I've lost count of the number of married men in chat-room I've spoken to who describe the same patterns of frustrations
Posted by Mr-Blues on November 6, 2009 at 1:32 AM · Report this
Getting back to the point with CAGE, bi does not mean you like threesomes. In fact, if your bf is ok with it, I would strongly recommend you try for some one-on-one girl experience before trying the threesome thing.

Me, I'm queer, and I'm happy to be with bi women. But not if the guy is part of the package. Sure, there will be some people up for threesomes, but that might be narrowing down the potential chick-pool a bit.

Oh, as for the judgemental twats here criticising CAGE for not having had girl-sex yet - hello, did you hit the ground queer as soon as you were born? Everyone has a first time; and, guess what, it isn't always in the years between 15 and 20.
Posted by Trix on November 6, 2009 at 2:34 AM · Report this
This is NEWB (for real).

To #9, I really meant what I said when I stated I didn't want to open up the relationship. I know that would hurt his feelings a lot, and I am frankly rather put off even by guys getting too flirty. Just feels "icky" somehow, I tried dating multiple guys at once, but I'm really a monogamist at heart. And my concerns are probably just leftover from an ex-boyfriend in my teens who claimed that if I didn't sleep with him then, no man would want me now. I guess it got to me more than it should have, so it makes it harder to ignore the negative comments now. But I guess it's a pretty common cognitive bias to remember the negative comments more than the good.

To #63: Are you calling my fiance or me a "bungling" amateur? If he's still happy with me and he's had about 7 years more experience than me I must be learning at least something. I'm genuinely very sorry things haven't been going well for you, but it could also have been having three kids in under three years that's a problem.

And just generally thanks to the people who've posted some encouragement.
Posted by caitygirl on November 6, 2009 at 9:45 AM · Report this
NEWB: Ignore your friends. I'll give you the only sex advice I gave my kids: You cannot learn good sex from a book. You cannot learn good sex from movies or your friends. You cannot learn good sex from other people. There is only one way to learn good sex, and that is from your partner. People are just too different. What one person craves, drives another crazy. People are not mind-readers. You need to learn to say what you enjoy and to allow your partner to say what they enjoy. Why try multiple partners waiting for one to magically do what makes you feel good? It's much better to establish a relationship where you can simply ask for what makes you feel good. Mutiple partners makes no sense to me. We all have approximately the same equipment.
Posted by nobodynobody on November 6, 2009 at 10:30 AM · Report this
My wife too had only had oral when we first met, yet I was very experienced. Now 17 years later she is still the best I ever had and we still have great sex 4 to 5 times a week. Thing is we communicate what we like and work to make the other happy, which they then return the favor. In a way it always makes me feel good that she was inexperianced, that way I got to show her the pleasures, she now has came up with a few new ones herself..
Posted by Shaker on November 6, 2009 at 12:49 PM · Report this
PGofHSM asks the following REMARKABLY INANE question: "How did CAGE get involved with girls before she met her boyfriend? Or is she one of those "bisexual" girls who's never actually had sex or a relationship with another woman -- until she's with a guy who's gung-ho for a threesome?"

What crap!!! Assuming PGofHSM is a guy, I would ask him this question: "Did you know that you were straight/gay prior to having sex for the first time?" Of course! Duh!!! It is so insulting when morons say stuff like this. I knew I was gay long before I was old enough for sex. If the girl says she's bi, I would believe her. DOWN WITH DUMB-ASSED STEREOTYPES!
Posted by DaveS on November 6, 2009 at 1:53 PM · Report this
robt vesco, jr. 95
Re: "Your advice to ACLU was the most uninformed, god-awful piece of rubbish you've ever published in this column. Your desperate attempt to win the admiration of your heterosexual readers makes me want to barf. The meddling uncle needs to mind his own business."

Good Lord, people.

1. Watching over family is one's business. Kids get pregnant far less often when adults supervise and set expectations. MYOB does NOT ever pertain to kids. It's our job to protect them. All of them.

2. The real dialogue:

Cop: What did you tell this kid?
Uncle: That I'd kill him if he got my niece pregnant.
Cop: Right on. You know how many pregnant kids I've seen in nowhere lives? Hey niece ...
Niece: Yes, officer?
Cop: Listen to your Uncle. Hey boyfriend ...
Boyfriend: Yes?
Cop: Nice coat. And I'll throw you in jail after he kills you, if you get her pregnant.

Posted by robt vesco, jr. on November 6, 2009 at 3:54 PM · Report this
I'm in a similar situation to NEWB, I've had some sexual experience but not much compared to come people, and not as much relationship experience as my boyfriend. We are a few years apart and I worry about the sexual differences, but we are both very happy and it was nice to hear for once that an open relationship isn't always the answer (especially because he's not down with that).
Posted by funkytuna on November 6, 2009 at 5:35 PM · Report this
Ah, Dan. I'll never forget a comment you made in in this column in 1993: "Fence-sitters, nose-pickers. The shadowy world of the bisexual makes me want to vomit". As a horndog 19 year old lesbian living on Capitol Hill, I thought it was the funniest, most astute thing I've ever read. Now, 16 years later, I guess we've both mellowed- you're giving advice to young inexperienced bisexuals instead of demeaning them, and I'm living in Alaska with a partner of 9 years.
Posted by nameless on November 6, 2009 at 8:27 PM · Report this
Teenage boy? Threaten to kill him. Problem solved.
Posted by anonymous1234 on November 7, 2009 at 8:12 AM · Report this
June 99
If you have jealousy issues about your bf being with another girl, why not try hooking up with a couple? The guys watch while the girls have fun with each other, and then the guys can fuck their girlfriends. That way, you don't really have to share your bf, and he still gets off (and what straight guy doesn't want to watch two girls getting it on?).
Posted by June on November 7, 2009 at 4:37 PM · Report this
Robin8 100
@NEWB: Your "friends' " opinions are irrelevant. How many partners you or your partner have had is none of their business. And you can tell them to shut their pieholes. They're probably just jealous that you have such a good thing going on.
Posted by Robin8 on November 7, 2009 at 7:30 PM · Report this

Surely this must be a topic for the next column: Bart Stupak has an election coming up next year. Let's keep this douchebag out of Congress.
Posted by Park on November 8, 2009 at 8:54 AM · Report this
Also on the chopping block, besides Stupak of Michigan: Brad Ellsworth from Indiana, Marcy Kaputur from Ohio, Dan Lipinski from Illinois, Kathy Dahlkemper from Pennsylvania, Chris Smith from New Jersey, and Joseph Pitts from Pennsylvania.

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm actually less concerned with Smith and Pitts and more concerned with rest of the folks on this list, the most prominent "Democratic" supporters of the Stupak amendment. I expect this bullshit from Republicans, but the Democrats on this list? Fuck them. They don't get to use our party to get into office anymore.
Posted by Park on November 8, 2009 at 9:02 AM · Report this
Well just to solve it for everybody...

I have been with girls before I met my boyfriend and we have three, four, and five-sums to say the least. I am not one of those "I just like to look at naked women, but I would never actually want to do anything with them" type of person. I am way too horny for that. But those were all one time events. I was more asking Dan for advice on how to get a girl and keep her for more long term fucking around. Kinda like how a girl looks for a boyfriend, I want a girlfriend to satisfy me. I get super turned on when my boyfriend fucks around and yes even bones another girl in front of me. The hard part is getting a girl that is willing.

Posted by CAGE on November 8, 2009 at 2:47 PM · Report this
Dan--once again right as rain advice for CAGE, NEWB and ACLU.

I continue to love your column!!!
Posted by wileEcoyote on November 9, 2009 at 12:52 AM · Report this
Well CAGE, what you want is a unicorn. Good luck with finding that mythical beast.
Posted by Hybrid Vigor on November 9, 2009 at 8:51 AM · Report this
Has no one clued into the possibility that the 14 year old boyfriend may be bisexual? I get tired of such binary thinking - especially in the queer community. Not everyone is gay or straight.
Posted by mave on November 9, 2009 at 4:56 PM · Report this
Well, CAGE, I'd say your best best is a late 30's or 40-something professional woman -- one old enough to know what she wants but perhaps to busy to muck about with dating. Or she might be married and sexually frustrated.

But your chances are pretty small. Not many people want to be a long-term 3rd wheel in a bisexual relationship.
Posted by Nick_38 on November 10, 2009 at 2:24 PM · Report this
CAGE, meet Matisse.
Posted by ChiTodd on November 10, 2009 at 6:28 PM · Report this
Wow, impressive! good luck for you!
Try my site and see if it help…
Posted by Rabbit vibrator on November 10, 2009 at 7:22 PM · Report this
how did "niece" end up becoming "sister" in both the question and response??
Posted by Charles 123 on November 10, 2009 at 8:39 PM · Report this
I'm a bi woman, mid 20's, only had boyfriends and a FFM threesome. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in women, there's just a lot more men seeking women than women seeking women around. I also didn't realize that there were more options than straight vs gay until I was out of high school, thanks to societal bs. I liked boys, so I just assumed I was straight. My eyes were always migrating to a pretty girl in English class though.

My threesome was with my partner and a bi woman introduced to me by a friend. It was about as close as you could get to a woman magically appearing in your bed. If CAGE is out to her friends, she might consider advertising that she's looking for a third. Maybe someone will know another bi girl cruising for a threesome. Another option is to find another coupled bi woman and have a third swap or group session.
Posted by seeking thirds on November 11, 2009 at 2:20 AM · Report this
The uncle seems kinda creepy. Everyone gets hurt by love/lust/infatuation, it's normal and healthy and probably even necessary- the girl AND the "protoqueer" need to have these experiences. But I don't see where the uncle or the kiddies need or will benefit from the meddling. Dan's advice is absolutely off base here.
Posted by Racing Turtles on November 12, 2009 at 9:52 PM · Report this
I can't believe all the people here freaking out over Dan's advice to ACLU. I mean, *really,* people?

A few years back, when my sister was sixteen and bringing boys home, my mom felt that if we mentioned sex to the boys or birth control to my sister, we'd be giving them "permission" to go at it, so she maintained that no one was to say anything to them and pray they just wouldn't think of having sex if no one said anything. My dad, stepdad and I all strongly disagreed.

Rather than sulking about it, the three of us went proactive. Stepdad (who is a big guy, 6'8" and 350lbs) warned the boyfriends that if they did anything to my sister, there'd be hell to pay. I more specifically told them that if they got my sister pregnant and then abandoned her, I'd beat them to death with a shovel. On the other end, my dad and I both told my sister that we loved her and would be there for her if she needed advice, and promised we wouldn't tell Mom. We kept our word: Dad arranged to cover my sister's birth control on his health insurance without Mom knowing, and I was there to give my sister a ride to go get it (whether to the clinic to get a refill prescription, or the pharmacy to get it filled) and to explain to her how to use it properly and answer any questions she had. Mom was never the wiser until after my sister graduated.

I call it the two-front approach. Stepdad and I put the fear of God (not literally) into the boys, Dad and I made sure that my sister had a safe space to learn how to have safe sex. And I'm happy to say, years later, that my sister is only the third woman in our entire family, both immediate and extended, to make it to twenty years old child-free without any abortions involved in the last HUNDRED YEARS.

Also, none of the boyfriends ever whined to their parents that they were being threatened, or called the cops about it.

Kids NEED to have families that care enough to both protect them and teach them how to protect themselves. And that's really what Dan's advocating there. I applaud it.
Posted by Heather Michelle on December 5, 2009 at 5:01 PM · Report this

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