Follow Dan

Facebook    Twitter    Instagram    YouTube
Savage Lovecast
Dan Savage's Hump
It Gets Better Project

Savage Love Podcast

Got a question for Dan Savage?
Call the Savage Love Podcast at 206-201-2720
or email Dan at mail@savagelove.net.

Savage Love Archives

More in the Archives »

More from Dan Savage

More in the Archives »

Books by Dan Savage

Want a Second Opinion?

Contact Dan Savage

Savage on YouTube

Loading...

Mad Men

November 12, 2009

  • comments
  • Print

I am a 30-year-old woman, married for five years to a man eight years my senior. Lately I have become more aware that I am turned on by the idea of bondage, specifically men locked up in chastity devices. I am ashamed because it seems pretty perverse and disturbed.

My husband is a pretty dominant alpha-male type. I am a relatively dominant personality, but I'm a bit submissive around him in order to keep the peace, as he will not tolerate any disagreement in certain situations. So I am wondering: Is this new fetish springing from my frustration at being dominated by the man in my life, or am I just becoming more aware of my proclivities as I get older? Is this a sign of a psychological problem? Should I discuss this at all with my husband?

Turning The Tables

The emotional dynamics in your marriage—he won't tolerate disagreement in "certain situations," you bite your tongue to avoid conflict—sound a hell of a lot more perverse and disturbed to me than your growing awareness/acceptance of your interest in bondage and chastity. Your interest in consensual power exchange is as sexy as it is common, TTT, and your kinks don't require his constant submission, e.g., he's not tied up once you untie him, his dick isn't locked up once you unlock it. His inability to "tolerate any disagreement in certain situations," on the other hand, does require your constant submission.

No relationship lasts unless both partners are willing to bite their tongues from time to time in the interests of keeping the peace. But when someone says her husband "will not tolerate any disagreement in certain situations," that worries me. The list of situations in which your husband won't tolerate disagreement may be short now, TTT, but if he realizes that he can control you with this anger, the list is likely to grow. Be careful.

On to your fetish: It sounds like you were always turned on by the idea of controlling a man; you write that you've become "more aware" of this fetish, which leads me to believe that you've had some awareness all along. Why is it coming to the forefront now? It could have something to do with hitting your sexual peak, which women do around 30, and it could be because your kinks go so strongly against the grain of the established emotional dynamics of your marriage.

I would encourage you to discuss your kinks with your husband. They're not anything out of the ordinary (or the extraordinary, I should say), and lots of dominant dick swingers—guys like your husband—secretly fantasize about submission. The cliché about the high-powered CEO who goes crawling to a professional dominant to get his ass beaten is a cliché because it's frequently true. Your husband could be one of those guys—but you'll never know until you ask.


I won't bore you with the story of my 19 years in a sexless marriage. That must be one of the most common complaints you get, and you've given plenty of good advice on the topic, some of which I'll be taking any minute now to keep me from blowing my head off. What I want to know is, am I... is everyone entitled to an active sex life?

He Only Really Needs Your Okay

I don't need the whole story, HORNYO, but you could've bored me with a few relevant details. For instance, has your marriage been sexless for all 19 years of its existence? Or did your sex life collapse at some point during those 19 years? Did the sex end a year ago? Five years ago? Ten years ago? Fifteen?

But to answer your question: No one is entitled to an active sex life. We are all entitled to freedom of sexual expression—consensual sexual expression—but to express your sexuality with others, you have to find or marry or rent a willing sex partner. And while each has the right to seek sexual fulfillment,* HORNYO, sadly not all who seek shall find. Some folks are unlucky or unfuckable or wind up trapped in marriages that always were or have become sexless—which is where compassionate, understanding sex workers and/or the Ashley Madison Agency (www.ashleymadison.com) come in handy.

Back to your marriage: If you were doing something wrong, HORNYO, if you destroyed your wife's attraction to you through neglect (or something worse), then you are obligated to make a good-faith effort to undo the damage. But if the wife cut you off because she simply isn't interested in sex anymore—or if she never was interested in sex—then you are entitled to seek what sexual fulfillment you can find outside your marriage.

* Offer not good in Saudi Arabia or Jamaica.


My boyfriend and his best friend are close. Last summer, I noticed that when my boyfriend gets drunk he tries to grab his friend's ass, throws his arm around him, and sits close to him. Then one day I found a pair of underwear in our bedroom that belonged to my boyfriend's best friend. My boyfriend said he didn't know how they got there. I figured he and his pal messed around and he didn't know how to talk about it honestly because he's pretty macho. I was jealous, but I asked myself if I could accept a bi boyfriend and decided that I could.

So a few days ago, my boyfriend's best friend asks me if I tell my boyfriend everything he, the best friend, tells me. I say no, not necessarily. So he asks me to promise not to tell my boyfriend what he's about to tell me. I say that depends. He brings up the underwear incident and says that he called a prostitute that night and fucked her in my bed, and that's why his underwear was in my room. He tells me that my boyfriend let me think they were gay for each other rather than tell me that they called a hooker. And he tells me my boyfriend didn't touch the hooker—to which I say yeah right.

Why did he tell me this? And what do I do with it now? Please give me some advice. I feel like I can't trust either of them right now.

Secrets And Deceit

Why would your boyfriend's best friend come to you now, SAD, so many months after the Underwear Incident, and tell you this involved, incriminating, improbable story and then swear you to secrecy? Either he's gone rogue on your boyfriend and made up all of this crap about the hooker in an effort to sabotage your relationship, SAD, or he and your boyfriend are concerned that you're onto them and this is some bizarre effort to cover their tracks, i.e., to offer some excuse for the sole piece of incriminating evidence that indicates they may be something more than best friends.

Fucking each other or not, your boyfriend's best friend is fucking with your head, and you're under no obligation to keep this conversation secret from your boyfriend—and your ass is more than covered by that "that depends." Talk it out with your boyfriend, SAD, and tell him you want the truth. Is he bisexual—emphasizing that you can live with bi—or is he gay? Or is he really such a scumbag that he'd tag-team a hooker in your bed with his best friend? Give him a chance to come clean and/or come out. And if your gut tells you he's lying, SAD, end it.


mail@savagelove.net

 

Comments (93) RSS

Oldest First Unregistered On Registered On Add a comment
1
Why is Jamaica up there with Saudi Arabia?
Posted by holmgren on November 10, 2009 at 9:29 PM · Report this
2
Great response for SAD! It would seem strange that the bf and friend become concerned *months* later.
Posted by downyonder on November 10, 2009 at 9:35 PM · Report this
kim in portland 3
Good response to TTT. I must the comment about the spouse being unable to tolerate any disagreement in certain situations does concerns me.
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on November 10, 2009 at 9:50 PM · Report this
4
omg. No way I'm the first comment right?

Totally love you Dan. I'll get the nerve to write to you one of these days....
Posted by kerberos on November 10, 2009 at 10:01 PM · Report this
5
I was thinkin that SAD's boyfriend put his BFF up to telling this preposterous story, made more "believable" with the "please don't tell him I told you" caveat. Only a self-loathing homophobe would rather have his woman believe he ordered a hooker(whom he of course didn't touch) than that he succumbed to some greek exploration.
Too bad...if he wasn't such a chickenshit, she could get in the middle of a manwhich and have some fun! OOOH!!! They could perform the sex act of my dreams, but for which I have no name... she and boyfriend are 69ing, BFF enters her. What's that called? Anyone?
Posted by ggg on November 10, 2009 at 10:21 PM · Report this
6
Re:SAD- anyone else strongly reminded of this weeks Curb Your Enthusiasm?
Posted by MySpoonIsTooBig on November 10, 2009 at 10:43 PM · Report this
FerretRunner64 7
I would guess you would call that a "70", no? You know -- 69 plus one.
Posted by FerretRunner64 on November 10, 2009 at 10:47 PM · Report this
8
#5: a 691? :)
Posted by ratty rat on November 10, 2009 at 10:52 PM · Report this
MythicFox 9
@1-- Long story short, Jamaica is one of the most homophobic countries in the western world.
Posted by MythicFox on November 10, 2009 at 11:45 PM · Report this
Nova 10
@1: Jamaica and Saudi Arabia are very different countries; however, when it comes to the treatment of homosexuals, it is simply atrocious in Jamaica. It is common for citizens and police to violently beat (or even murder) homosexuals across the country. Nobody is really sticking up for them either. There are still numerous anti-gay laws, banning men from having sex with each other, and politicians routinely blame gays for their own victimization.

I think there is a video about it, and it's likely on youtube. You can go look it up, if you want.
Posted by Nova on November 11, 2009 at 12:00 AM · Report this
11
How about a 609? A 689? A 6Y9?

What's the appropriate symbol for a woman caught in a male 69, anyway?
Posted by Pope Buck I on November 11, 2009 at 12:06 AM · Report this
12
How hard is it to not accidentally leave your underwear after a secret affair? I mean, really?
Posted by laurelgardner http://www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=5877570 on November 11, 2009 at 12:14 AM · Report this
13
Another possible explanation for SAD:
Perhaps her boyfriend and his 'friend' were fooling around but had a fight, and the 'friend' decided to get back at him by spreading lies to you.
Posted by For SAD on November 11, 2009 at 12:46 AM · Report this
14 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
15
ggg, that's called P*L*E*A*S*U*R*E :)
now the reply to SAD sucks.. really, unless they are in an open relationship, ho is it less cheating to fool around with someone of the sme sex? if the boyfriend was in bed with his best friend, he was cheating on her. that's t, it's not about accepting a bisexual boyfriend, it's about accepting being cheated on (which I would say you should not).
Posted by girlinspain on November 11, 2009 at 1:48 AM · Report this
16
Sounds to me like SAD's bf is probably hiding his bisexuality. BUT, there is no way SAD's bf had sex with that hooker, here's why:

Clearly, it's weird to confess to this hooker thing out of nowhere, especially when there are a million less creepy excuses for leaving underwear at his place; shitting or pissing your pants is a necessary evil of living an interesting life.

But if SAD's bf had actually had sex with this theoretical hooker, there is no way in hell the friend would have ever told of it. That also eliminates the possibility that the best friend made all this up to seduce SAD, he would never admit to a hooker either.

This is looking more and more like it has to be a secret gay life, or an implausibly true story.
Posted by Sirus on November 11, 2009 at 2:14 AM · Report this
17
@1

Yeah, I personally like the story of one of the Jamaican community organizers for Gay Rights... Who was beaten to death in his own home, and while his body lay there, the good ol' Jamaican boys & girls partied outside all night.

Jamaica is a sick country filled w/ ignorant rednecks. That they happen to be black & like ganj makes no difference.
Posted by i hate lyrnyrd skynyrd too on November 11, 2009 at 2:38 AM · Report this
18
yeah, it sounds to me like SAD is under the thumb. And @12, perhaps it's happened hundreds of times, and this is the only time they've been careless.
It really does sound like the boyf and BFF are in a concurrent relationship. Or the BFF is into him, and left the jocks there on purpose...
Posted by melbzig on November 11, 2009 at 2:56 AM · Report this
19
@18 does the rest of the Carribean have similar social attitudes?
Posted by melbzig on November 11, 2009 at 2:59 AM · Report this
Mayhem 20
@5
Around here, that is often called Saturday night...or "Team Building" depends on the company.
Posted by Mayhem on November 11, 2009 at 3:06 AM · Report this
21
@7: brilliant.
Posted by Peri on November 11, 2009 at 4:02 AM · Report this
22
"Ashley Madison"? for real? somebody really has a name that stupid?
Posted by durleen on November 11, 2009 at 4:03 AM · Report this
23
sounds like SAD is pretty GGG. She's okay with her BF being either 1) Bi or 2) into Tag Teaming hookers. She's really only upset with the lies. Why can't I find a girl like that? She needs to ankle the BF and his BFF and find sum1 honest...

...and I need to stop using netspeak.
Posted by stormcrow on November 11, 2009 at 5:41 AM · Report this
24
Great advice to SAD! I have some additional thoughts though:

It's almost obvious that your boyfriend is bi/gay - since you said that you could live with having a bi boyfriend, if he comes out to you when you ask him, you hold all the cards to make this work. Relationships like this seem like they could go bad if there's no ground rules established, like, who's the main partner, who's the side partner, or, if you want a permanent poly hookup with your man and his BFF.

It seems to me like this could work out very well for you if the idea of your guy being with another guy turns you on, but if it doesn't, and he's bi, you might need to end it.
Posted by MT3 on November 11, 2009 at 6:13 AM · Report this
25
@23 - not that I've dealt with this type of thing personally, but it seems to me like bisexual and "straight" men who find a good woman are usually encouraged to suppress the need/desire for dick. He doesn't know if she'd be cool with it, so he hid it. I think it's foul, but I understand it.

Now, if he comes clean and admits it when she asks, if she lets him know that she's down for all of that, and it turns her on, then it could all work out.
Posted by MT3 on November 11, 2009 at 6:19 AM · Report this
26
"Jamaica is a sick country filled w/ ignorant rednecks. That they happen to be black & like ganj makes no difference."

Free advice: stop using insulting terms for lower-class, laboring Southern whites that are as hate-filled and foul other racial epithets. You look ignorant when you do that, especially since you apply that epithet in the absurd context of saying black Jamaicans are like lower-class, laboring, typically Baptist Southern whites. Um, no, they are not, not even in how they express their contemptible homophobic violence against homosexuals.
Posted by Snowguy on November 11, 2009 at 7:17 AM · Report this
27
It sounds to me as though TTT's husband is a controlling jerk, and (if she's financially capable) she needs to leave him. Like Dan said, it's only going to escalate. I'm wondering what happens when she dissents from his opinion or direction. Does he yell? Hit? What happens when he "doesn't tolerate" something? A person with that kind of partner cannot and should not tolerate THAT crap.

She sounds like a strong woman who has (probably unwillingly or unknowingly) let her husband chip away at her self confidence, self esteem, and strong-willed personality so much that she would just defer to him than get into another screaming match that won't get her anywhere. I had the same relationship with my mother until I moved out. TTT, stand up for yourself! Assert your independence from him (once you've got a financial safety net) and leave! 10 years is too long to live like that. If you've got kids (which I sincerely hope isn't true), take them with you. It's time to throw in the towel.
Posted by Nikki in MN on November 11, 2009 at 7:24 AM · Report this
GymGoth 28
Why didn't SAD's boyfriend offer some reasonable explanation to the "Underwear Incident"? Like "at the gym after showering I realized I didn't have a clean pair of underwear but my friend had an extra pair and lent them to me".

Makes a hell of a lot more sense than "I don't know" or the hooker story. And the BFF telling that ridiculous hooker story months later? What purpose did that serve? Sounds like he was stirring trouble for whatever reason. Can't see the motivation in the boyfriend putting him up to that.

Dan is right, get it all out in front of him and demand (in an understanding, open way) an explanation.
Posted by GymGoth on November 11, 2009 at 7:35 AM · Report this
29
@26: "lower-class, laboring, typically Baptist Southern whites" is not the definition of "redneck". It has differet shades of meaning, depending on who is using it, but it never means anything so general as you think. When used disparagingly (by southerners), it usually means the kind of person who would likely beat someone up for being gay.
Posted by Christy O on November 11, 2009 at 9:14 AM · Report this
30
Years back I was involved with a closeted guy. His "best friend" was even more twinky than he was, but I never got to know him because my bf always kept the best friend at a distance. That is, until the fateful night when they decided to take their girlfriends out on the town--to our town's only gay bar.

That lovely evening? The topic of conversation was how the best friend's family would disown him *if* he was gay. The boys went to the bar together, leaving me at the table with the other girlfriend, who began crying about how she worried that her boyfriend was gay. As I was trying to console this perfect stranger, I watched as my boyfriend stood arm in arm with his "best friend" at the bar...at one point they were jokingly taking turns slapping each others' asses. Cuz, ya know, when in Rome.

The next day, I tried to discuss the situation with my boyfriend, and he exploded in a rage and accused me being emotionally abusive! That was rich, seeing as I freely admitted being turned on by bisexual men, have had sex with women myself, etc. Needless to say, we broke up. He is now married to some poor unsuspecting woman. But, the fallout for me was considerable, as this guy badmouthed me to many people we knew as this "emotionally needy and unstable" woman who "accused" him of being gay. It was quite a lesson--abusive partners not only project their abuse onto their partners, but they also rationalize their control issues and rage by calling their partners "unstable."

I'm telling this story because, wow, it so totally pales in comparison to this one--this utter bullshit of "Oh, we're not gay, we just tag-teamed a hooker, but please don't tell your boyfriend I told you." Wretched! It's just more evidence of how much damage closet cases cause to themselves and the people around them. I got off easy compared this nonsense. Although, truth be told, it's probably only because I never really knew the extent of the deception and self-loathing.
More...
Posted by maddy811 on November 11, 2009 at 9:27 AM · Report this
luvzhappyboy 31
@26 - What? No more hate-filled epithets??? Wassamatta U... sensitive? The relatively mild term "Redneck" (he could have said something MUCH worse) is the last more or less acceptable "hate-filled" (??) terminolgy for the non-PC crowd. Now go away and leave us alone.
Posted by luvzhappyboy on November 11, 2009 at 10:09 AM · Report this
32
@ 22 Ashley madison is a website for married people to basically hook up.... a no-strings kind of thing....not a stupid name!
Posted by 80Jen on November 11, 2009 at 11:28 AM · Report this
33
@ 22 Ashley Madison is a website for merried people to hook up... a no-strings type of thing. Not just a stupid name.....
Posted by 80Jen on November 11, 2009 at 11:31 AM · Report this
34
@15

I agree. SAD's letter, as well as past letters, make me wonder: what's with the assumption that when someone in a relationship is bi, that automatically makes their relationship open? I'm not bi, so I can't speak for people who are. However, it seems like it would be frustrating to be stereotyped as someone who, because they are attracted to both sexes, can't be monogamous. These assumptions often seem to come from people who suspect their partner may be bi -- to them, the logical next step is opening up the relationship. I'd be interested to hear thoughts on this topic from people who are bisexual.

Also, I just want to be clear that I'm not criticizing open relationships, just the idea that that's the only kind of relationship a bi person could possibly want.
Posted by kheila on November 11, 2009 at 11:37 AM · Report this
35
@5 I have also wondered if there's a name for that act. If not there should be.
Posted by Quiz on November 11, 2009 at 11:57 AM · Report this
36
Wait a minute...how did she KNOW that it was her boyfriend's friend's underwear? Has she seen the friend in his underwear? Does he write his name in his underwear?
Posted by Whateva on November 11, 2009 at 12:26 PM · Report this
Shini 37
@36: probably process of elimination:

"Gee, I did laundry and I know BF doesn't wear Tweety Bird briefs."
Posted by Shini on November 11, 2009 at 12:53 PM · Report this
38
Re: "Ashley Madison"? for real? somebody really has a name that stupid?

Yeah, DURLEEN, you have room to talk.
Posted by kettle, meet pot on November 11, 2009 at 1:17 PM · Report this
39
What I think is interesting is, how did SAD know it was her bf's friend's undies? Most women can id their own panties out of a lineup, but how many women can id their bf's undies? Most (straight) men's underwear, be they boxers, briefs or what have you, are pretty similar to every other pair of underwear they own. So, what was the deal with these underwear that she, a) knew they didn't belong to her man, and, b) knew they belonged to his bf. Weird.
Posted by nyker on November 11, 2009 at 1:20 PM · Report this
lovefrommn 40
"The cliché about the high-powered CEO who goes crawling to a professional dominant to get his ass beaten is a cliché"... ORLY?!
Posted by lovefrommn on November 11, 2009 at 2:07 PM · Report this
41
Oh that's right, Jamaicans are 'phobes, I was wondering how they got grouped with the Saudi's. My favorite is how all the Rasta's I know refuse to you condoms, cause it's, y'know, the devil. Okay pal, if you don't want to use birth control, that's fine, but it means 18 years of 9-5 work and child support, because where is dad when little Ziggy is hungry? He's across town getting stoned with his mates bragging about how he doesn't use birth control!

Beenie Mon's well documented defense when he was queried about his militantly homophobic lyrics was that in Kingston, the only homosexuals in Jamaica are rich white men who come into the ghetto to rape little boys. Sounds like most of the gays I know (sarcasm).
Posted by stormcrow on November 11, 2009 at 2:18 PM · Report this
42
What 31 said.
Posted by DF on November 11, 2009 at 4:08 PM · Report this
43
Your partner dont allow disagreements then you should leave them...your partner wont have sex with you then leave them...partner cant eplain friends underwear in his drawer then leave him..Why do people waste so much of their life trying to drag sex and confessions out of their partners..just leave them..breaking up is easy to do I`ve done it..I no longer waste a minute of my time with unreasonable people...
Posted by bradley on November 11, 2009 at 4:30 PM · Report this
44
This is directed at SAD: both of Dan's theories are plausible, but that story was so outlandish that it's also possible they want to stop with the secrets and deceit, but are too cowardly to just come right out and tell you so they're actually trying to get caught.
Posted by licia on November 11, 2009 at 4:46 PM · Report this
45
@5 Switchback Teabag? I like your style!
Posted by eddie979 on November 11, 2009 at 6:44 PM · Report this
46
Just to be clear, y'all on what it means to be a Redneck. I use that term because it's the group I was exposed to as a kid growing up in semi-urban, semi-rural western Washington. They were people who felt that ignorance was a Virtue. They were always quick to blame someone else for their misfortunes, never taking responsibility for themselves. If the 'misfortune' was a societal one, then the blame was assigned to a larger group, a minority group that may or may not be powerful ("jews control the world," or "liberals control the media," etc.) They find pleasure in violence, either watching it in sports, movies or real life, or committing it. They do not value aesthetics, equating it with being weak, or female, or both. Finally, they have no ambition, and find it virtuous to remain in their current station (while always complaining about it & blaming others for it.)

These folks are found world-wide. (Yes, I've traveled & met 'em for myself.) In Europe, Asia, Africa & the Americas. Some have money, most do not, but inside, they're all Redneck.
Posted by i hate lyrnyrd skynyrd too on November 11, 2009 at 8:15 PM · Report this
47
For the first question, clear case of DTMFA!

If he doesn't "tolerate" your opinion, and you find your opinion is essential on those issues (which you clearly do), you need to DTMFA!

Fuck pathologizing your anger into a sexual fetish. Don't hang with a guy that insults you repeatedly, and Expects you to take it!

No one has a right to control or ignore or intimidate you. Period. DTMFA!* Dump the Mother Fucker Already!
Posted by EmmaLiy on November 11, 2009 at 8:53 PM · Report this
Posted by David Carney on November 11, 2009 at 10:42 PM · Report this
49
Not every Jamaican is homophobic, so please stop lumping us all into one category. Further, not every Jamaican who doesn't agree with homosexuality is gonna beat down or kill a gay person. You can't hold a whole country responsible for the views of their politicians and musicians. And we do not all smoke weed, that gets real annoying.
Posted by JamaicaNYC on November 11, 2009 at 11:19 PM · Report this
ilana 50
HORNYO left out details because he wanted the okay to cheat. He clearly didn't give details because he didn't want his situation to be examined thoroughly, since he probably wouldn't get the answer he is looking for.

I also don't think cheating is a great answer here. Let's assume that he is not a victim of "the frigid bitch" - sexless marriages usually come from SOMEwhere - shouldn't there be a discussion? Considering there is a 19 year relationship (at minimum) and a reasonable possibility of children at stake?

For example:
If we do not start having sex, I propose an open marriage, or to start having sex (for real, not you lying there while I jerk off into you) or a divorce.

OR

How can you and I make this work? I want more sex and intimacy and either you are incapable of giving that to me or you don't want to. If you are incapable, we can try to work something out (doctor? sex therapist? couples counseling?) but if not, I think an open marriage should be considered. If you just don't want to then I think it is fair to consider a divorce.
Posted by ilana on November 11, 2009 at 11:20 PM · Report this
51
The SADness is your response to the woman. Good grief, why prolong her agonizing realization that he's gay and trying to hide it? Plain as the penis in your pants! The hooker story is soooo old, it was probably used by some Greek in the Illiad (can't spell Pelipponis.....) Let them go sweetheart SAD, with the knowledge that they are out to you and those with whom you associate. That should make honest men of them. Rasstis/NY
Posted by Rasstis/NY on November 12, 2009 at 6:39 AM · Report this
52
This column is one of my favourite reads. Over the years, nothing has kept me more centred. Once again this week, I am reminded that the reason SO MANY people are in completely damaging, fucked-up relationships is simply because they ALLOW their partners to treat them like shit.

You get the partner you settle for.
Posted by The Happily Married Gay Guy on November 12, 2009 at 8:12 AM · Report this
53
#39, when you live with someone and pay an ounce of attention, you eventually learn what type and size of underwear they wear. SAD is condensing her story for the sake of space. She probably found a pair of underwear she didn't recognize as her boyfriend's pair and asked him who they belonged to and he probably responded that they were his friend's underwear. Or, as she was already suspicious of how unusually close and flirtatious her boyfriend and his friend were, she may have just assumed that the strange pair of underwear belonged to her boyfriend's best friend.

In any case, the little detail of how she discovered the underwear owner's identity is irrelevant. The issue is not whether her boyfriend is gay, bisexual, or straight, but whether he thinks it's okay to cheat on her, as it does not appear from her letter that they are in an open relationship. Sleeping with your best male friend when you are in a monogamous relationship with someone else is no different than sleeping with your best female friend, as far as cheating goes. Also, being bisexual does NOT mean you are incapable of having a monogamous relationship.

SAD needs to confront her boyfriend and tell him that he should respect her enough to tell her the truth. I suspect the truth is that he has been cheating on her with his best friend. SAD will need to decide whether she wants to stay in the relationship and see if they can work to move past his infidelity and lying, or whether it is a deal-breaker and she should just move on.
Posted by creezy on November 12, 2009 at 8:18 AM · Report this
54
@37 -- If you can determine the owner of a pair of underwear through "the process of elimination," you have an altogether unhealthy obsession with elimination.
Posted by danfan on November 12, 2009 at 1:09 PM · Report this
55
@46:

"Finally, they have no ambition, and find it virtuous to remain in their current station (while always complaining about it & blaming others for it.)"

sounds alarmingly like the same classist rhetoric anti-welfare conservative assholes use. i'm from rural oregon and i don't call the people from my community "rednecks" i call them ignorant fucks.

Posted by kelsbot on November 12, 2009 at 1:35 PM · Report this
56
I don't want to justify homophobia, but there's a reason it's much more common in poverty-stricken areas (even in the US), and Jamaica is a VERY poor country. It's also one of the few 3rd world countries where men are MORE marginalized than women, therefore they have to be proud of things like how many women they have f*cked or are f*cking, how many children they have fathered, and how even though they might not have a job or education, at least they are not gay.
Posted by jamerican girl on November 12, 2009 at 1:38 PM · Report this
Milbury 57
@41
Quoted from your post-"Beenie Mon's well documented defense when he was queried about his militantly homophobic lyrics was that in Kingston, the only homosexuals in Jamaica are rich white men who come into the ghetto to rape little boys. Sounds like most of the gays I know (sarcasm)."

Yeah, because there aren't and have never been any cases of white men (rich or otherwise) traveling to Third World countries to have sex with small children. Gary Glitter and Frédéric Mitterrand are the only men in history to travel to foreign countries to have sex with underage boys, ever. No one else, regardless of racial/cultural background or fetishistic inclination has ever done this. For the entire history of the human race. Ever. So yeah...

Simply put, homosexual rape (the sex may have been "consensual", but having sex with children makes it rape by default) was a very common occurence in Jamaica pre-independence. The (for lack of a better word) "charitable" English men would arrive, throw around a few sets of clothing and say a few words about "helping" the poor children of Jamaica, then have their way with any of the children (mostly the boys, almost never the girls) who made the mistake of visiting the private quarters of their benefactors. Jamaicans didn't just wake up one day and say, "Fuck de bumba clot battymen!", they learned it by having to tend to the children who were left behind when the sex tourists went home. And it's quite possible that they'd still visit Jamaica if the local environment wasn't so hostile to that sort of activity. Unlike Cambodia, Laos and Thailand, Jamaica has the advantages of being closer(8 hour flight versus a 15+ hour flight), cheaper (relatively speaking) and friendlier (English-speaking, conjoined history, similar religious beliefs which allow for proselytizing Christian ministers to sample their targets while wearing the cloth). It's your right to decry their current behaviours (as I do), but tarring an entire country with the "ignorant homophobe" brush is senseless.

That being said, I have no problem with LBGTQQ people and their supporters refusing to visit Jamaica or purchase it's products. Soft diplomacy of that type will work far better to change the minds of the average Jamaican citizen than vilifying them for embracing a distinctively self-destructive mental pattern. If you scream and rant about their actions (while continuing to enjoy their exports), you look like a hypocrite. If you decide to spend your tourism dollars in a friendlier island (say, the Bahamas?) and are adult enough to tell any West Indian acquaintances *why* you've decided to avoid Jamaica, the people will vote with their wallets.

P.S.-Despite all of the sturm und drang, there are a few places in Jamaica in which being gay won't result in your immediate evisceration/defenestration. I wouldn't advise straying too far into the non-touristy areas, but the citizens won't attack the resort areas en masse with flaming torches or anything else.
More...
Posted by Milbury http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rLkEsoO6t0 on November 12, 2009 at 6:36 PM · Report this
58
Ah the asinine best friend, aren't they fun. He hates you and wishes his buddy were single again so he could go back to being the center of his attention. But he doesn't want to get in trouble with his friend so he tells you he your bf didn't touch the hooker, knowing full well you won't believe that bit. If your bf is siding with this asshole who hates you, dump him.

Either that or they're bi and he's cheating on you. Sounds like a lose-lose.
Posted by Karey on November 12, 2009 at 6:40 PM · Report this
59
"My husband is a pretty dominant alpha-male type. I am a relatively dominant personality, but I'm a bit submissive around him in order to keep the peace, as he will not tolerate any disagreement in certain situations. So I am wondering: Is this new fetish springing from my frustration at being dominated by the man in my life..."

Yet another woman attracted to dominant alpha males who marries one knowing full well what he was like and then turns around and complains about him being dominant.

Posted by Ferro on November 12, 2009 at 7:38 PM · Report this
60
@ # 5

the name for that is "GAY".

sorry but that the name.
Posted by not a homophobe on November 12, 2009 at 8:50 PM · Report this
growler 61
@26, ARE YOU INSANE???!!!

i'm seriously baffled by your comment.
i actually went numb there for a bit. a giant wave of stupidity came over me. wow...just wow.
i'm ok now. i got a glass of water and caught my breath....but holy shit, i can't even dissect and breakdown exactly how 'ignorant' you sound.

ugh...please don't ever post again.
Posted by growler on November 12, 2009 at 9:00 PM · Report this
Helgaleena 62
If you have a kink it is ALWAYS wise to tell your legally contracted spouse about it.

And Dan's advice that the list of 'certain situations' is going to grow is sadly true in my own experience.

Ask our author Eva Hore--
http://www.darkroastpress.com
Posted by Helgaleena http://www.darkroastpress.com on November 13, 2009 at 4:38 AM · Report this
Helgaleena 63
If you have a kink it is ALWAYS wise to tell your legally contracted spouse about it.

And Dan's advice that the list of 'certain situations' is going to grow is sadly true in my own experience.

Ask our author Eva Hore--
http://www.darkroastpress.com
Posted by Helgaleena http://www.darkroastpress.com on November 13, 2009 at 4:38 AM · Report this
Helgaleena 64
It is always a good idea to let your legally contracted spouse know if you have a kink.

And Dan is correct that the number of 'certain situations' is likely to grow.

Our author Eva Hore wrote about that, among other things...
http://www.darkroastpress.com
Posted by Helgaleena http://www.darkroastpress.com on November 13, 2009 at 5:07 AM · Report this
65
pfft. She doesn't have to catalog all her bf's briefs. The easiest way she could know right away is if they were a different SIZE.
Posted by littlemoon on November 13, 2009 at 7:12 AM · Report this
66
You may need to add Uganda to the list of countries where citizens are not free to express themselves sexually; parliament there is in the process of passing a law which would not only criminalize homosexuality, but would penalize anyone who knowingly conceals the fact of someone else's homosexuality in order to shield them from prosecution. That's some fucked up shit!
Posted by adman on November 13, 2009 at 9:37 AM · Report this
Erica37 67
To TTT:

My husband is very submissive, and I want nothing more than for him to be dominant in the bedroom. This is something we're working on, because of his natural submissiveness, but my biggest turn on is for him to take total control and leave me no options in bed. However, if he did this IRL, I would be quite upset, as it would change the whole dynamic in our relationship. So I think it's perfectly normal to want the opposite in the bedroom from what you have in your relationship. I bet your husband does too, but maybe start off light... little dominance games moving up to the whole chastity belt thing.
Posted by Erica37 on November 13, 2009 at 10:53 AM · Report this
68
Throwing an arm around a friend or sitting close is not exactly homosexual behavior -- it is normal behavior for straight boys too, bred out of American young men by homophobia. Grabbing ass might indicated gayness, but can also be childish horsing around.
Posted by JJJS on November 13, 2009 at 2:46 PM · Report this
69
@ #5: They're called threesomes. :P
Posted by gromm on November 13, 2009 at 3:13 PM · Report this
70
Great advice, Dan. I'm really curious about SAD. I wanna know what happenssss!

And it sounds like HORNYO just wanted it in writing: "LOOK! Dan Savage said I could fuck other girls! It's not MY fault!"
Posted by Jamez on November 13, 2009 at 4:14 PM · Report this
easye 71
What happened to the promised excoriation of some dumbass Indiana high school prinicipal as told on this weeks' podcast? I was really looking forward to it Dan!
And I'm surprised the sneaky shit who submitted the pix of the girls monkeying around on their summer break escaped unscathed by your bang-on and tremendously accurate vitriol :)
Posted by easye on November 13, 2009 at 11:52 PM · Report this
72
I have read countless times that AshleyMadison.Com is mostly a scam. I don't want the poor guy taken. That said, he does sound like he just wants Dan's OK to cheat on his spouse.
Posted by dalahorse on November 14, 2009 at 6:49 AM · Report this
73
Truth is stranger than fiction, I actually believe SAD’s boyfriend’s story because I had a similar thing happen to me many years ago.

My long-term girlfriend was out of town and I went out drinking with the boys one night. One of my friends stayed over in the spare bedroom and I crashed out in my room. During the night he got horny and called up a hooker. I am a heavy sleeper, especially when drunk, and was oblivious. He was gone the next morning when I woke up and the bed was made. I wasn’t even sure if he spent the night.

My girlfriend found an empty condom wrapper under the bed about a week later and of course accused me of cheating. I called my friend to find out WTF happened and he told me the story. He even explained the story to my GF, much to his embarrasment, in an attempt to smooth things over but she just thought he was covering for me.

Her suspicion of me led to our eventual break up about a year later. It’s been ten years and I still think about her, sad how the little things effect life…
Posted by softcookie on November 14, 2009 at 6:52 AM · Report this
74
To #5- class act definition and name calling

I'd like to suggest "Rat-a-tat-Cat", named after a children's card game
Posted by fif on November 14, 2009 at 3:00 PM · Report this
Y.F. Redux 75
@ 69, I believe #5 ggg was asking about a specific position a M-F-M threesome engages in...and according to the Urban Dictionary it is called the "Eiffel Tower". Please don't ask me how I know that.
Posted by Y.F. Redux on November 15, 2009 at 4:18 PM · Report this
76
@73 - choose your friends wisely, they reflect on you.

@HORNYO - When I was in a really good relationship, we hit a drought and I started to freak. We did have the "options" talk, and neither of us wanted to end it, so she agreed to the "open" thing... stipulating that she didn't want to know. I knew that "open" means "open information", so it was still closed and it was not settled. Then, one Monday morning the "mood" came back. That Friday night she rocked me, and again the next Monday. Sex three times in eight days was a new kind of miracle for us, and things are back to our normal, comfortable 3-a-month rhythm. I'm very glad I stuck it out, because deep down I know I'm not an "open" kind-of-guy and she isn't the "open" type either. The "options talk" was a very important part of the progression, though, just to air things out. It was hard, it was uncomfortable, but knowing we got through it tells me that we can get through that and other things that may come up in the future, too.

Sticking things out can be worth it if you do the work. :)
Posted by Workedit on November 16, 2009 at 11:36 AM · Report this
77
you're leaving out the 69 part of this, so it's not the Eiffel Tower...
Posted by lisalou on November 16, 2009 at 11:57 AM · Report this
78
Great advice as usual, Dan. Keep it up!
Posted by wileEcoyote on November 16, 2009 at 1:06 PM · Report this
79
@68 ("Throwing an arm around a friend or sitting close is not exactly homosexual behavior -- it is normal behavior for straight boys too, bred out of American young men by homophobia. Grabbing ass might indicated gayness, but can also be childish horsing around."):

They're in a gay bar, ignoring their girlfriends whom they aren't even sitting with. That makes it way more homosexual behavior than in other circumstances.
Posted by LeslieC on November 16, 2009 at 1:24 PM · Report this
XiaoGui17 80
@34 While I recognize that having a bisexual partner doesn't automatically open up a relationship and that bisexuals are every bit as capable of being monogamous as anyone else, there's a few reasons these relationships are more likely to be open than others:

1) A partner of a bisexual will feel less threatened/jealous by a "rival" who is a different sex. A woman is more likely to feel comfortable with another man than another woman because she recognizes another man with her man is a compliment to, and not replacement for, her.

2) A heterosexual partner of a bisexual is more likely to be attracted to a third wheel of the opposite sex than a member of their own sex. Most heterosexual men love the idea of a two female threesome, but would only do a two male threesome for the sake of their girlfriends and not themselves. So in a sense, opening up a bisexual relationship is mutually beneficial instead of one person humoring the other.

Basically, it's not that bisexuals have more incentive to open up a relationship; it's that they have less of the reservations that heterosexuals would have.
Posted by XiaoGui17 on November 17, 2009 at 12:05 AM · Report this
81
@34 Great rationalization! and it gives me another incentive ;)
Posted by elz on November 17, 2009 at 4:09 PM · Report this
82
@5: 699
Posted by Lopsided on November 18, 2009 at 5:25 PM · Report this
83
There's one more posibility that no one brought up. I thought of it because I saw it happen. Two male best friends, one has a secret crush on the other, which could lead to the ass-grabbing when drunk. The guy who desires his straight friend talks that friend into them doing it together with a woman. "See, I'm not gay, because there will be a woman in the room while I'm getting off on watching your naked body have sex" (ha ha) . The friend goes along with the idea of them sharing a woman, simply because he's in the mood for sex and the friend is providing a woman. I was lucky enough to be the woman in this 'manwich', and it was all great until man-in-love decided to try to slip in kissing his crush while the three of us were hooked up. "Woops, I must have gotten confused and thought I was kissing the girl!". Yeah, well, eventually the covetted male caught on, and the other guy started to blow a gasket from wanting something he couldn't have for so long. Their friendship broke up, and I was left feeling very very lucky to have been the woman in this situation, there was great fun 'till the truth became obvious. Anyway, Because SAD says her BF grabs his friend's ass, but not the other way around, maybe the friend is straight. I'm thinking that maybe SAD's BF set it up for his friend to have sex at his place so that he could have the opportunity to watch his friend in action. This could explain him not touching the girl, it really could be true. And, the straight friend may be bugged by the idea that someone/anyone thinks he is gay because he is not. In any case, SAD's BF is not straight, and she could do better than being with a man who will be seeking dick from another sourse after he realizes it will never happen with his friend. Just putting another possibility out there. She doesn't need to know the exact truth anyway, because she can withdraw from the whole messy drama and get someone new and better.
More...
Posted by Candy C. on November 20, 2009 at 3:14 AM · Report this
84
There's one more posibility that no one brought up. I thought of it because I saw it happen. Two male best friends, one has a secret crush on the other, which could lead to the ass-grabbing when drunk. The guy who desires his straight friend talks that friend into them doing it together with a woman. "See, I'm not gay, because there will be a woman in the room while I'm getting off on watching your naked body have sex" (ha ha) . The friend goes along with the idea of them sharing a woman, simply because he's in the mood for sex and the friend is providing a woman. I was lucky enough to be the woman in this 'manwich', and it was all great until man-in-love decided to try to slip in kissing his crush while the three of us were hooked up. "Woops, I must have gotten confused and thought I was kissing the girl!". Yeah, well, eventually the covetted male caught on, and the other guy started to blow a gasket from wanting something he couldn't have for so long. Their friendship broke up, and I was left feeling very very lucky to have been the woman in this situation, there was great fun 'till the truth became obvious. Anyway, Because SAD says her BF grabs his friend's ass, but not the other way around, maybe the friend is straight. I'm thinking that maybe SAD's BF set it up for his friend to have sex at his place so that he could have the opportunity to watch his friend in action. This could explain him not touching the girl, it really could be true. And, the straight friend may be bugged by the idea that someone/anyone thinks he is gay because he is not. In any case, SAD's BF is not straight, and she could do better than being with a man who will be seeking dick from another sourse after he realizes it will never happen with his friend. Just putting another possibility out there. She doesn't need to know the exact truth anyway, because she can withdraw from the whole messy drama and get someone new and better.
More...
Posted by Candy C. on November 20, 2009 at 3:17 AM · Report this
85
I'm guessing the boyfriend is bi, and had some sort of fling with the best friend...who is now tired of waiting that he didn't break it off with the girlfriend, and so now is trying to stir some shit up. Confront him, listen to his BULLSHIT story, and then move on. Even if you can accept a boyfriend who is bi, can you accept a boyfriend who is a liar and a cheater, and may have exposed you to STDs? I'm a bit worried that you didn't find any condoms with the underwear!
Posted by Snappher on November 22, 2009 at 3:19 PM · Report this
86
Honestly, I really wonder how it all turned out...
Posted by tajmah27 on January 24, 2010 at 1:22 AM · Report this
87
for SAD i mean... It sucks. I've dated someone who put me on edge that he might be gay. He had been teased for his intonation and even questioned it himself, but came to the conclusion that he wasn't. However, he had such a weird way about women. He's completely awkward and has to say everything he likes about every single woman he see whether on tv and in real life. He's a complete bachelor type and he's overly friendly and acts like he wants something, but would still push me away. And to top it off he even told me he liked if the dude had a bigger dick in porn. I know guys like this for some reasons, that it makes the girl look smaller and they like to feel like it may be them instead.

Still, with all his doubts about himself and his complete inability to make a girl feel important and giving time up to his male friends versus his girlfriend or even being jealous of girlfriends in his friendships with his guy friends, it sometimes seemed like he might really be gay. Gay or bi or just really fucking awkward.

Either way it sucks for a guy to be hiding it, or for him to not be able to admit that he may truly be gay, or for it to be so denied that it just isn't apparent even to him. You have to compete with something you will never ever be and you just don't know unless they admit it.

I feel for you SAD. I hope he just tells you the truth. Don't settle for him being bi as an excuse. He cheated on you so either way, it is you or this guy. If he really loves you, even if he is bi, he will choose you. Myabe he just needed to get it out of his system. In any case, I hope you'll do the right thing for yourself.
Posted by tajmah277 on January 24, 2010 at 1:46 AM · Report this
88
Yes I also agree w. Candy C that there maybe a possibility that boyfriend wanted to watch. In any case, he has a girlfriend. People cuckold their wives and girlfriends all the time and the women are into it. You don't think if he was into this he would've mayb joked about it with her or brought it up over the course of their relationship.

It's the fact that she has the suspicion to begin with that is the problem. There had to be a lot of "friendly" touching going on for her to start to feel uncomfortable or even jealous that something might be going on.

Come on even when a female gets to close to your man, or they start touching and flirting, you raise your eyebrow to that, especially if it starts to happen often enough.

Smells Fishy Fishy Fishy...
Posted by tajmahalprincess27 on January 24, 2010 at 2:02 AM · Report this
89 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
90
Nice post...
Keep bloging.

Married Men Seeking Married Men
Married Women Seeking Married Women
Posted by rishitiwari87 on July 15, 2010 at 12:07 PM · Report this
92
No it's not an eiffel tower, an eiffel tower is different. i think he/she's talking about the guy and girl going down on each other, while the second guy enters the first girl from behind. an eiffel tower has one guy getting a blowjob while the other guy fucks her, and when they high five over her that's the eiffel tower bit.
Posted by kdjf on October 9, 2010 at 9:10 AM · Report this
93
Excellent stuff from you, man. I’ve read your things before and you are just too awesome. I adore what you have got right here. You make it entertaining and you still manage to keep it smart.
This is truly a great blog thanks for sharing…
Send flowers to Italy
Posted by imran on December 26, 2010 at 11:29 PM · Report this

Add a comment