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Co-Workers of the World
November 19, 2009
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Joe Newton
I am a happily married, happily nonmonogamous male. We are not wild swinger types. For us it's more about the fact that monogamy does not work than about nailing everything that walks by. Anyway, I have encountered an odd situation a few times now, and again last night, where I'll be flirting with a potential fling and she knows I'm married and she's very interested. But when she finds out my marriage is nonmonogamous, she suddenly backs out. Case in point, a coworker: We have been flirting since I started my new job a few months ago. Today she asked me what my wife would do if she found out I was sneaking around on her. Good time to make a full disclosure! But when I told her my situation, that was the end of our flirtation.
Any idea why women find the idea of cheating with me okay, but once they find out I have a free go of things, they walk?
No Figuring Women
This woman didn't find the idea of cheating with you "okay," NFW, she wanted to fuck you because you're married and presumably monogamous. Try to look at it from her perspective: When she thought you were willing to cheat on your wife to be with her, NFW, that meant you found her so attractive, so utterly irresistible, that you would break your marriage vows and risk everything to get into her pants. Sleeping with her with your wife's permission? Meh, where's the ego boost in that?
I am a 40-ish married straight woman living in New York. I have been happily married in a monogamous relationship for 11 years. My husband and I met when we were in our early 20s. After listening to all of the Savage Lovecasts together, we started to talk about the idea of "some degree of openness," as you put it.
In the past year, I have had a crush on a coworker. My husband is okay with me having something on the side with this coworker. This coworker is single (last I heard) and 17 years younger (yikes!), and he knows I am married. We had a great working relationship while we were assigned to a project together, but now he's in another department. My question is, how to go from here? After having a few good talks with my husband, I am excited about this idea and terrified. I'm having a private lunch with my coworker soon. This is fine with my husband. What can you tell me to calm me the hell down and not be so stressed? After being conditioned my whole life that monogamy is the only way to go, I am having a hard time shifting!
Newly Open Couple Lacks Understanding & Education
Have that lunch, and tell your coworker/crush that you and the husband are just beginning to explore the idea of openness. For all you know now, your much younger coworker may not be interested in being your piece on the side. If it turns out that he is interested, take things very, very slowly and keep your husband fully informed. But even if I could relieve you of your stress and anxiety with a few words, NOCLUE, I wouldn't. You should be anxious and stressed out; it's appropriate to be anxious and stressed out. Your nervousness is prompting you to take things slowly and to be careful and conscientious about your husband's feelings. If this works out—for you, for your coworker, for your husband—it will be in large part thanks to the stress, NOCLUE, not despite it. Enjoy.
I am in a strange situation. I work in the corporate sector in marketing and sales. It is a high-stress, fast-paced job, and everyone has a short fuse. I have a coworker who is losing business to a competitor who happens to be gay. In her fits of anger, she keeps calling him a faggot. I hate it. The thing is, I am not gay. And if anyone in our office is, they are in the closet. She has used the word in front of other coworkers and even our boss, and no one seems to be bothered.
I am torn about what I should do. I am black, and if she were using the word "nigger," I would call her on it and raise issue with our HR department. Can I file a complaint on behalf of a group I do not belong to? If she found out I complained, she would see it as a threat to her own job, which could lead to a decidedly hostile workplace. But if it were a racial slur, I would not let that deter me. I want to do the right thing. How would you handle the situation?
Not My Problem?
If someone at my office were tossing the word "nigger" around, NMP, I would lodge a complaint. I would resent the assumption on my coworker's part that since I'm white she can use racist speech in my presence, because, hey, all us white people are racist POS, right? And I would complain because a workplace that tolerates racist remarks is a workplace that tolerates homophobic remarks. If people are using "nigger" when there aren't any black people in the room, they're doubtless using "faggot" when there aren't any gay people in the room. And vice versa. Have a word with HR.
I have a new coworker, a young man who is gay and quite effeminate. He's slim, wears makeup, has boyish/feminine features, and has done some modeling work as a woman. He said in a lunchroom discussion today that he prefers to wear women's clothes. He said he had worn women's clothes at a previous workplace, and no one had been offended. I suggested he talk to HR to protect his job before coming to work dressed in women's clothing. Good advice or should I just mind my own business? One coworker suggested that he work up to it, while another said he should just do it and let the chips fall where they may. The question of what restroom he should use when dressed as a woman came up. I'm not 100 percent comfortable sharing the ladies' room with him. Though I am certain most of the men won't be comfortable sharing the men's room with him either.
Do you have any suggestions on how to handle situations where I might find myself in the same restroom as my newest coworker?
She Knows It's Really Trivial
If your coworker identifies as female, she should use the women's room. If he identifies as male, he should use the men's room. And seeing as he's using the men's room now—despite his wearing makeup and being openly gay—I don't see how the addition of a dress should change things for his male coworkers. And from the way you describe that lunchroom conversation, SKIRT, it sounds like your effeminate new coworker has at least some support at work—but yes, he should have a talk with HR.
As for "handling situations" where you find
yourself in the same restroom with your newest coworker, SKIRT, unless
you routinely offer to zip up your coworkers or wipe their asses for
them, I don't see how his presence—or his attire or the
particular brand of genitalia tucked into his panties—really
impacts you at all. 
4
NMP should definitely say something. Not only is is just plain wrong to be silent, it's also bringing everyone else down and reducing the creative output of the entire department.
5
there's lots of alt answers for NFW, but most likely, the coworker he's flirting with is HELLO! FLIRTING. Not trying to get laid--flirting. As long as he's putatively monogamous, that's safe enough, but once it becomes a serious possibility, she's out of there.
6
Whatever happened to good ol' Ally McBeal-style co-ed "gender neutral" bathrooms? That would ease some of these gender-bending growing pains.
7
the theme seems to be people unable to seize (squeeze?) the moment; to say something on behalf of others or for oneself. Boring! That's 90% of the population. And as for the first guy who's trying to seize his own moment, well he's boring too.
8
I agree with 5 - I don't think NFW or NOCLUE's piece on the side is actually interested. Maybe they should hook up.
9
Great advice Dan!
For NOCLUE, isn't part of the thrill of "cheating" the anxiety and stress of it all? I think when it's no longer stressful, it'll also be no longer interesting, right? Yeah, human behavior is fucking weird, just go with it.
SKIRT's coworker should definitely inform HR before just showing up dressed as female. Let people know ahead of time so no one mistakes it for a punk'd episode or is left confused or something.
For NOCLUE, isn't part of the thrill of "cheating" the anxiety and stress of it all? I think when it's no longer stressful, it'll also be no longer interesting, right? Yeah, human behavior is fucking weird, just go with it.
SKIRT's coworker should definitely inform HR before just showing up dressed as female. Let people know ahead of time so no one mistakes it for a punk'd episode or is left confused or something.
10
As usual, spot-on advice! It saddens me that NMP needs someone to tell him to speak up. Hate speech is hate speech. Period.
11
I'd think of it more as what a man has to offer a woman, what he brings to the table. All women should really know this already, that married men are never going to leave their wives, but for some reason hope springs eternal. That is, unless you make totally clear that they will never be anything but a fling, a meaningless piece on the side to be used sexually and then thrown away. Such as when you're in a nonmonogamous marriage thats going to stay that way. Then as Dan says, the women go, meh. Even the ones who sleep with married men think they're worthy of the possibility of something more. When its made clear that thats not where they rank, they're not interested. This of course doesn't make it ethical for you to stop disclosing and pretend otherwise, so as to get your flings. I totally respect people who have the OK from their spouses. But no one's obligated to sleep with them. Its just the tough break that is life.
12
Does not seem to be legal grounds for discrimation complaint if HR vetos the male cross dresser from wearing skirts - and more so if the guy identifies with males. This would not be discrimation based on gender, and would be hard to make an arguement for discrimination based on sexual orientation. Company could argue to allow it would cause disruption to the workplace and potential loss of clients. I dont think the HR tribunals in 2009 would support this complaint.
13
NMP really should say something, and I'm surprised he hasn't. Dan, I'm glad you pointed out that they would want a white person to say something should the N word be used in their presence.
Also, sounds like SKIRT's got a serious "I don't want a penis touching my public toilet seat" complex. What is she so worried about happening?
Also, sounds like SKIRT's got a serious "I don't want a penis touching my public toilet seat" complex. What is she so worried about happening?
14
The advice regarding which bathroom to use seems a little off. Why are the coworkers obliged to feel uncomfortable because some gender fucktard can't make up his mind? You have male anatomy - use the Men's Room -- female parts - use the Ladies Room. Christ, it is not rocket science, and this system has worked for millions of years, why make it fucking confusing now? When Janie boy goes under the knife THEN he can change restrooms.
15
@5 exactly. Or maybe she just wanted something casual. Once a guy goes from being a trashy cheater (whom she can self-righteously dump any time) to being a sensitive guy with a nice, understanding wife back home, things threatened to get heavy and she was back to the hunt. Some women prefer assholes. Some men prefer dumb women. Go figure. She didn't work out, move on.
http://fasttimesinpalestine.wordpress.co…
http://fasttimesinpalestine.wordpress.co…
16
I'm always sad when I finish the last letter... no more til next week. But I just found a hilarious advice column written by a foppish scoundrel born in 1578 or something... check it out. Google Ask Rodger Goodwyn and you'll find it. You can even write him a letter and he'll answer! http://askrodgergoodwyn.blogspot.com/
17
Google Ask Rodger Goodwyn for advice from a bawdy, Shakespearian dude from the 15th century. HILARIOUS!
18
Is anyone else having trouble accessing the rest of the comments beyond the first 5?
I've tried the link immediately above the "add a comment" window, which shows there are 17 comments at this point, and also the "all comments" link at the top of the comments section.
I don't see an opportunity to sign in w/o posting a comment. Am I missing something?
Oh yeah! Great stuff this week, Dan.
I've tried the link immediately above the "add a comment" window, which shows there are 17 comments at this point, and also the "all comments" link at the top of the comments section.
I don't see an opportunity to sign in w/o posting a comment. Am I missing something?
Oh yeah! Great stuff this week, Dan.
19
@5: Yeah, I didn't read it as the co-worker getting a bigger ego boost when she assumed it was cheating.
But that she was FLIRTING. With the safety that nothing would happen. And if something started to happen, or more than she wanted, she could always threaten to tell his wife.
But as a free-range husband he's just as "risky" as most other guys. And she only wanted to flirt when options were limited and greater control was hers.
But that she was FLIRTING. With the safety that nothing would happen. And if something started to happen, or more than she wanted, she could always threaten to tell his wife.
But as a free-range husband he's just as "risky" as most other guys. And she only wanted to flirt when options were limited and greater control was hers.
20
really silly answers this week. why do you suggest in your answer to skirt that her coworker could use the women's toilet? just because he's gay? he's a man, and what if he wears a dress? why should he use the women's toilet???
and to the people with open marriages. flirt, etc... but a full disclosure of your marital status and your deal with your wife/husband is not necessary to flirt., even to fuck someone. as long as you let them know that you are committed to someone elkse, I don't really see why you sould explain which are exactly the rules of your commitment.. .5 is right on the spot.
and to the people with open marriages. flirt, etc... but a full disclosure of your marital status and your deal with your wife/husband is not necessary to flirt., even to fuck someone. as long as you let them know that you are committed to someone elkse, I don't really see why you sould explain which are exactly the rules of your commitment.. .5 is right on the spot.
21
What if the coworker had a bad habit of calling people names like Ligger, or Gigger because the N word was offensive?
Dan, when you changed from calling people "retards" to calling people LeoTards you did not change much.
Would you give advice to cut bigots a break if their hate speech changed to shouting insults that sounded like "Fagot" but did not start with "F".
Dan, you can't stand the hypocrisy of Santorm, nor can I. But will you please do what you say and clean up the hate sppech, aka use other adjectives than "retard". Nobody is forcing me to listen to your podcasts, but you sliped in "Tard" recently. barf.
Dan, when you changed from calling people "retards" to calling people LeoTards you did not change much.
Would you give advice to cut bigots a break if their hate speech changed to shouting insults that sounded like "Fagot" but did not start with "F".
Dan, you can't stand the hypocrisy of Santorm, nor can I. But will you please do what you say and clean up the hate sppech, aka use other adjectives than "retard". Nobody is forcing me to listen to your podcasts, but you sliped in "Tard" recently. barf.
22
That is right for NMP: In most state civil rights laws, you may complain if you are offended by a discriminatory slur even if you are not in the "protected category." --Employment Discrimination Attorney.
23
"a workplace that tolerates racist remarks is a workplace that tolerates homophobic remarks. "
Likewise....Newspapers are justified if they have a problem with people who use remarks that rhyme with the N word, and they should not tolerate Dan or anyone who frequently and recently uses remarks like "Tard" and "Leotard".
Please Dan, check yourself. offer a real apology to people with mental disabilities and their friends. Open up your Thesaurus and avoid your history of bigoted adjectives.
Likewise....Newspapers are justified if they have a problem with people who use remarks that rhyme with the N word, and they should not tolerate Dan or anyone who frequently and recently uses remarks like "Tard" and "Leotard".
Please Dan, check yourself. offer a real apology to people with mental disabilities and their friends. Open up your Thesaurus and avoid your history of bigoted adjectives.
24
NFW - I agree with the red-headed cubs etc.: the woman wanted to flirt, as many women (and men) do. Actually, I give her props: once she found out that for NFW consummation was actually a possibility and he was seriously pursuing her, she didn't continue to "lead him on," but withdrew completely. 'Cause she wasn't interested in sex - just in flirting.
25
To No Clue: Theory and fantasy are one thing, reality may be something entirely different. Things may work out fine, but they could also turn out to be disaster for you and/or husband. You (plural) may think you're fine with an open life style, but realize after the fact that you're not. Once fantasy becomes reality, there is no going back and you will have to deal with the consequences. This will forever change your relationship with your husband, you will no longer be the same people, and your (plural) commitment to your relationship and each other may well change. So think long and hard about what you are risking and whether sex is really worth it?
26
I agree with Kim. If she is offended, there is a good chance others are, as well, and are just afraid of speaking up. If she doesn't feel comfortable with pulling this co-worker aside and saying, "hey, cool it with the slurs; it's making me uncomfortable", that's fine, but someone needs to have a talk with her. She needs to grow up.
27
The co-worker and the writer, both. I'm so tired of this PC bull-shit. Why is everyone so afraid of offending everyone else? Speak up! That's the only way people like this are going to know they need to behave themselves. Not everyone is OK with hearing homophobic slurs every single day at work.
28
I think another issue with the flirty co-worker is that as long as she thinks the guy's cheating, then she is in the position of power - she's in on the secret.
But when she learns that his wife knows and approves - then the wife still has primacy in the relationship and flirty co-worker is just his piece on the side - not so powerful.
I believe flirting is often as much about power dynamics as about sex.
But when she learns that his wife knows and approves - then the wife still has primacy in the relationship and flirty co-worker is just his piece on the side - not so powerful.
I believe flirting is often as much about power dynamics as about sex.
29
I have two questions about Dan's response to NMP:
1. What does POS stand for? Pieces of Shit? Plenty of Sex? Penises Off Site? Please Offer Service?
and
2. When he says "And vice versa" what exactly is he referring to here?
Thanks, folks!
1. What does POS stand for? Pieces of Shit? Plenty of Sex? Penises Off Site? Please Offer Service?
and
2. When he says "And vice versa" what exactly is he referring to here?
Thanks, folks!
30
All you workplace people, some advice from a corporate-cubicle veteran: be a boring stiff who does not make waves at work. These letters evidence way to much concern about this or that personal choice or concern intruding into the workplace. Need something exciting in your daily life? Fine, get as freaky as you want at 5:01 pm. until 8 am the next day. Wear beige at work, though.
When you start involving yourself in dramatic scenes others are creating at work, or worse yet, start making your own scenes, bosses start to see you as one of the headaches in the office.
Guess who is first to go in downsizings? If others are creating problems, let them stay other people's problems.
so, Dan says, "If someone at my office were tossing the word 'nigger' around, NMP, I would lodge a complaint."
Stupid advice. At most go talk to the person, tell them others may react like you do, and that would be bad for the hater. If that doesn't end the behavior, and the company actually gives a rat's ass about "faggot"-epithet slingers, that person is slitting their own throat. Let the person keep slitting their own throat and stay well clear in the meantime of that walking corpse. If the company does *not* care about such epithets, lodging a complaint will be taking a piss in the punch bowl around the office. If you care about the job much, don't do that--you may end up looking for a new job 6 mos. from now because of some other alleged reason.
Oh, and that middle aged woman about to hit on a coworker 17 years younger than you? Eeeek. I was that late twenties something guy with tight abs in a corporate office working with women old enough to be my mom. When gals old enough to be my mom cougared up on me, it usually creeped me out. To be really blunt, most of them were not women I did want to have sex with. Even if I found them attractive enough to sleep with, I would rather not have had them bring their mid-life crisis into my work-life. I am sure you gals who had to deal with paunchy, bald guys hitting on you at work know what I am saying. Why do you think it is different for guys that same age facing the advances of older women?
And for both the guy and the gal looking for a bit on the side and doing so at work, you have absolutely no one to blame but yourself if the office gossip becomes you are involved in a swinging, deviant marriage and you hunt for new meat at work. The workplace rumor mill will most likely turn your discrete advances into slobberingly aggressive overtures. That is why people always say keep that stuff well away from the office. Ever heard of Craigslist?
More...
When you start involving yourself in dramatic scenes others are creating at work, or worse yet, start making your own scenes, bosses start to see you as one of the headaches in the office.
Guess who is first to go in downsizings? If others are creating problems, let them stay other people's problems.
so, Dan says, "If someone at my office were tossing the word 'nigger' around, NMP, I would lodge a complaint."
Stupid advice. At most go talk to the person, tell them others may react like you do, and that would be bad for the hater. If that doesn't end the behavior, and the company actually gives a rat's ass about "faggot"-epithet slingers, that person is slitting their own throat. Let the person keep slitting their own throat and stay well clear in the meantime of that walking corpse. If the company does *not* care about such epithets, lodging a complaint will be taking a piss in the punch bowl around the office. If you care about the job much, don't do that--you may end up looking for a new job 6 mos. from now because of some other alleged reason.
Oh, and that middle aged woman about to hit on a coworker 17 years younger than you? Eeeek. I was that late twenties something guy with tight abs in a corporate office working with women old enough to be my mom. When gals old enough to be my mom cougared up on me, it usually creeped me out. To be really blunt, most of them were not women I did want to have sex with. Even if I found them attractive enough to sleep with, I would rather not have had them bring their mid-life crisis into my work-life. I am sure you gals who had to deal with paunchy, bald guys hitting on you at work know what I am saying. Why do you think it is different for guys that same age facing the advances of older women?
And for both the guy and the gal looking for a bit on the side and doing so at work, you have absolutely no one to blame but yourself if the office gossip becomes you are involved in a swinging, deviant marriage and you hunt for new meat at work. The workplace rumor mill will most likely turn your discrete advances into slobberingly aggressive overtures. That is why people always say keep that stuff well away from the office. Ever heard of Craigslist?
31
@29: Dan means if a workplace tolerates homophobic remarks, it'll probably tolerate racist remarks; and if it tolerated racist remarks, it'd probably tolerate homophobic remarks. Hence: "vice versa."
Really great collection this week, Dan, and loving the workplace theme.
Really great collection this week, Dan, and loving the workplace theme.
32
@29: "Why do you think it is different for guys that same age facing the advances of older women?"
Who says it's different? But who says older, paunchy guys aren't allowed to make a pass for younger women? Just be nice, not too pushy, and if she's clearly not interested, back off immediately and don't pursue it.
More often than not, it's the manner that offends, not a person's age or appearance.
Who says it's different? But who says older, paunchy guys aren't allowed to make a pass for younger women? Just be nice, not too pushy, and if she's clearly not interested, back off immediately and don't pursue it.
More often than not, it's the manner that offends, not a person's age or appearance.
34
There was some study or another about how married men are more attractive because they're a proven product. In other words, some woman has taken the guy out for a test drive and likes him enough to keep him so he must be desirable.
here we go:
http://www.infoniac.com/offbeat-news/sin…
So according to that skeeviness, those women wanted to get the whole new wife package not just to be an add-on
here we go:
http://www.infoniac.com/offbeat-news/sin…
So according to that skeeviness, those women wanted to get the whole new wife package not just to be an add-on
36
So if I start identifying as female, I can go sit in the women's room and jerk of to them peeing?
37
Re: NFW... I suspect that 5 and the rest of the "it was only flirting" theorists have the highest likelihood of having gotten it right. (DS's answer presupposes that most women who fuck married men do so because they're surreptitiously competing with the wife, and my experience is that that's only true of a small and particularly skanky subset.) I'd like to suggest an alternative theory, though. It is admittedly low-probability, but if correct for at least some cases, it could increase NFW's chances. It is this: they're guarding against a three-way with the wife. It's unfortunate, but the "open marriage, happily non-monogamous" approach has been used more than once as a foot-in-the-door technique to get a third for the guy and his wife. There are a lot more women looking to get laid than there are looking to be a third for an established couple, NFW. Tell them from the start that it'll just be the two of you, with no chance that the wife will join in later, and you might have better luck.
38
NFW.. This may be a 'duh' moment, but women usually abhor interaction with emotionally unavailable males (unless you want that guy to go away... quickly) much less emotionally unavailable married males whose wives encourage them use other women like playthings. The world doesn't revolve around what makes you and your spouse happy, sorry.
39
Holy moley, there's a troll on the loose! One post cannot contain his outrage! There must be MANY two-sentence, gramatically questionable posts under different names in rapid succession! WAAAHHH!
40
Small addition to the response to NFW: a woman looking to sleep with a married man usually harbors some wish that he would eventually leave his wife for her. The fact that the man has his wife's permission to fool around on the side drastically diminishes the possibility, so the woman decides not to bother.
41
@38: Where does it say that his wife encourages him to "use" other women like "playthings"?
"women usually abhor interaction with emotionally unavailable males"
He SAYS the women who flirt with him are interested in him at first *because* he's married.
"women usually abhor interaction with emotionally unavailable males"
He SAYS the women who flirt with him are interested in him at first *because* he's married.
42
I think most guys, married or not, get turned down when all they're offering a woman is a fling. Its the eternal problem for guys who are just wanting to get laid. It doesn't make women incomprehensible creatures. I think we have another polyamorous person drumming up some trite faux-confusion.
43
To all the people saying this woman "just wanted to flirt," I think Dan did well to pick up on this part of the situation described:
"Today she asked me what my wife would do if she found out I was sneaking around on her."
This makes me believe she has an investment in what the wife thinks. It doesn't sound like she was just flirting for fun.
"Today she asked me what my wife would do if she found out I was sneaking around on her."
This makes me believe she has an investment in what the wife thinks. It doesn't sound like she was just flirting for fun.
44
Nothing says "You're just a piece of ass" more than revealing you're in an open relationship. Insist all all you want that you're not a "wild swinger type", but as soon as you share that info, it's all gold medallions and chest hair.
45
I found the last letter slightly annoying. What's so freaking scary about sharing a restroom with a cross dresser? I get why men might be uncomfortable with a woman coming into their restroom since they are pissing in the open, but as far as I know, ladies' restrooms have stalls and I doubt this guy will be waving his penis outside a stall, so don't go and share a stall with him, for heaven's sakes.
46
I have some advice for all of these people thinking about hitting on their co-workers. Please consult your HR department's sexual harassment policy first. (Something Dan never seems to bring up whenever this situation arises.) Sometimes even the most benign behavior can have ugly repercussions. You don't want to lose your job in this economy (and have to explain in future job interviews why you were fired). Food for thought.
47
Sorry, but that advice to NOCLUE is clueless. Starting an extramarital relationship at work with someone much younger (and probably much lower in rank) is a recipe for disaster. Sexual harrassment complaints from the young man, other complaints and resentment from men and women who do not receive the favoritism this young guy will get, and just plain unprofessional drama when it comes to break up time. Not a wise move in this economy.
48
karey (@11 and @42)
i think you're making some dangerous assumptions about what sex means to people.
"unless you make totally clear that they will never be anything but a fling, a meaningless piece on the side to be used sexually and then thrown away."
as a woman in a very stable, successful and happy polyamorous relationship, i take issue with this characterization of sex. i have several relationships that are primarily sexual, and i wouldn't define any of them as "meaningless." they are fun, casual and each is extremely fulfilling in its own way. no one is "using" anyone in these relationships, and we all have far too much respect for each other to "throw [anyone] away" when the relationship reaches its conclusion.
and as for my male partner and his other female lovers (and male lovers, for that matter), he has yet to become involved with anyone who wants to usurp my position in his life. you see, we don't respect these gender norms that dictate sexual ownership, entitlement, conquest or manipulation, and we don't get involved with people who buy into that bullshit.
i will agree with you that the perspectives you discuss are very prevalent. however, i think it's a tragedy that many people subscribe to these beliefs, and i choose to live my life without them. it's ignorant and presumptuous of you to characterize casual sex for others as it is for you.
i think you're making some dangerous assumptions about what sex means to people.
"unless you make totally clear that they will never be anything but a fling, a meaningless piece on the side to be used sexually and then thrown away."
as a woman in a very stable, successful and happy polyamorous relationship, i take issue with this characterization of sex. i have several relationships that are primarily sexual, and i wouldn't define any of them as "meaningless." they are fun, casual and each is extremely fulfilling in its own way. no one is "using" anyone in these relationships, and we all have far too much respect for each other to "throw [anyone] away" when the relationship reaches its conclusion.
and as for my male partner and his other female lovers (and male lovers, for that matter), he has yet to become involved with anyone who wants to usurp my position in his life. you see, we don't respect these gender norms that dictate sexual ownership, entitlement, conquest or manipulation, and we don't get involved with people who buy into that bullshit.
i will agree with you that the perspectives you discuss are very prevalent. however, i think it's a tragedy that many people subscribe to these beliefs, and i choose to live my life without them. it's ignorant and presumptuous of you to characterize casual sex for others as it is for you.
49
Re: People puzzled by SKIRT:
I don't think it's the issue of sharing a bathroom with a crossdresser so much as it is an issue with sharing a bathroom with a man.
For most women, the societal understanding is that if a man you don't know or don't know well is in the women's public restroom, he's a pervert or he's trying to rape you. Women are socialized to think of dudes in there as something that should trigger a fight-or-flight kind of response.
Which, maybe is something that needs to change, but I can understand why someone would be made uncomfortable by it without being especially conservative or a homophobe.
I don't think it's the issue of sharing a bathroom with a crossdresser so much as it is an issue with sharing a bathroom with a man.
For most women, the societal understanding is that if a man you don't know or don't know well is in the women's public restroom, he's a pervert or he's trying to rape you. Women are socialized to think of dudes in there as something that should trigger a fight-or-flight kind of response.
Which, maybe is something that needs to change, but I can understand why someone would be made uncomfortable by it without being especially conservative or a homophobe.
50
I agree that NFW's co-worker was most likely doing some innocent flirting, expecting it would never lead anywhere since he was married. But I also agree with @15 that it's possible she thought there was an opportunity for a "no strings" one-time-only fling since he'd keep it quiet, but felt intimidated when she found out that he wouldn't be sneaking around. Dan's answer was fun, and a take I hadn't considered, but seems somewhat less likely IMO.
51
Damn, how did I post a response almost like the one right before mine? Sorry, Kevin-94.
As to the outrage over hate speech towards retards, this is getting to be too much.
"Please Dan, check yourself. offer a real apology to people with mental disabilities and their friends."
I understand that using the word or words that refer to another group is insulting to that group, and that calling them "leotards" doesn't fool anything.
But suddenly making a perfectly respectable word like "retarded" off limits because it used as an insult is ridiculous. It's not like the words "faggot" and "nigger" which are used to insult because their connotations. "Retard" is used for it's denotations, and is usually reserved for people who the speaker knows perfectly well are *not* retarded. Nobody over the age of 13 calls retarded people "retards". Change the rules about what words are permissible, and people 10 year olds will just switch to other words or phrases like "short bus" (and also people who think it's cute to use playground insults from when they were 10 year olds). You're not going to accomplish anything that way.
Did the retarded people manufacture this outrage themselves? Most retarded people wouldn't have known any differently, unless some unretarded person is coaching them to be offended. And "retarded" is itself a euphemism for the old words people called them, like "idiots" and "fools". Are those words off limits now too, or has the statute of limitations run out? If we agree to say "mentally disabled", why can't we use "retarded" the same way those other words are now used? Just recently lots of people got offended because Sarah Palin referred to her child as retarded. Then she had to pretend she would never use such an offensive word (because lying is her first reaction to anything).
More...
As to the outrage over hate speech towards retards, this is getting to be too much.
"Please Dan, check yourself. offer a real apology to people with mental disabilities and their friends."
I understand that using the word or words that refer to another group is insulting to that group, and that calling them "leotards" doesn't fool anything.
But suddenly making a perfectly respectable word like "retarded" off limits because it used as an insult is ridiculous. It's not like the words "faggot" and "nigger" which are used to insult because their connotations. "Retard" is used for it's denotations, and is usually reserved for people who the speaker knows perfectly well are *not* retarded. Nobody over the age of 13 calls retarded people "retards". Change the rules about what words are permissible, and people 10 year olds will just switch to other words or phrases like "short bus" (and also people who think it's cute to use playground insults from when they were 10 year olds). You're not going to accomplish anything that way.
Did the retarded people manufacture this outrage themselves? Most retarded people wouldn't have known any differently, unless some unretarded person is coaching them to be offended. And "retarded" is itself a euphemism for the old words people called them, like "idiots" and "fools". Are those words off limits now too, or has the statute of limitations run out? If we agree to say "mentally disabled", why can't we use "retarded" the same way those other words are now used? Just recently lots of people got offended because Sarah Palin referred to her child as retarded. Then she had to pretend she would never use such an offensive word (because lying is her first reaction to anything).
52
The reaction of women to the married gentleman in the open relationship sadly confirms my worst suspicions about the female mind. Many (though not all) women feel "empowered" by sabotaging a relationship, whereas in reality they are human cum buckets for these attached men. Don't think I'm letting off men who cheat on their spouses - instead of seeking therapy for their insecurities they effectively whack off into some hapless chick who is equally insecure.
In an ideal universe we'd all be well-adjusted and secure, yet in reality most of us make stupid decisions because of unresolved fear, anger, etc. To be perfectly clear, I'm perilously insecure, yet instead of hurting innocent spouses/girlfriends my wounds tend to be self-inflicted. Smart? Nope, but I feel better knowing that I haven't left too many victims in my wake.
In an ideal universe we'd all be well-adjusted and secure, yet in reality most of us make stupid decisions because of unresolved fear, anger, etc. To be perfectly clear, I'm perilously insecure, yet instead of hurting innocent spouses/girlfriends my wounds tend to be self-inflicted. Smart? Nope, but I feel better knowing that I haven't left too many victims in my wake.
53
Thanks Dan! I work in the HR group and I alawys welcome people to come and let me know what's on their minds and what needs they have. Thanks for the nod that it's perfectly ok to come here. Only in rare circumstances do I take a big permanent marker and write the word "fink" on their foreheads when they leave my office. ;-) just kidding...but there are certainly those, like the foul mouthed woman listed here, who would earn "POS" for all to see...sigh, if only I had that much leeway and power. Someday...lol
54
The reaction of women to the married gentleman in the open relationship sadly confirms my worst suspicions about the female mind. Many (though not all) women feel "empowered" by sabotaging a relationship, whereas in reality they are human cum buckets for these attached men. Don't think I'm letting off men who cheat on their spouses - instead of seeking therapy for their insecurities they effectively whack off into some hapless chick who is equally insecure.
In an ideal universe we'd all be well-adjusted and secure, yet in reality most of us make stupid decisions because of unresolved fear, anger, etc. To be perfectly clear, I'm perilously insecure, yet instead of hurting innocent spouses/girlfriends my wounds tend to be self-inflicted. Smart? Nope, but I feel better knowing that I haven't left too many victims in my wake.
In an ideal universe we'd all be well-adjusted and secure, yet in reality most of us make stupid decisions because of unresolved fear, anger, etc. To be perfectly clear, I'm perilously insecure, yet instead of hurting innocent spouses/girlfriends my wounds tend to be self-inflicted. Smart? Nope, but I feel better knowing that I haven't left too many victims in my wake.
55
No unisex bathrooms! I've already had to deal with pissy toilet seats at home, at least keep some public ones free from the guys!
As to NFW, maybe the women think he's lying. Of course, if they're flirting with married men, you'd think they'd be OK with a guy who lies. However, maybe once he says "My wife's OK with it," they think he's a delusional liar, and change their minds.
As to NFW, maybe the women think he's lying. Of course, if they're flirting with married men, you'd think they'd be OK with a guy who lies. However, maybe once he says "My wife's OK with it," they think he's a delusional liar, and change their minds.
56
@43: I am not sure that comment necessarily meant anything. Could just be part of the flirtation.
And just for the record, it's not just women...men do this too. I can't tell you how many times guys flirted hardcore with me only to reject me once I expressed that I was actually interested in them (I was a bit of an Ugly Betty back then and they smelled the desperation). Some were nice about it, and we stayed friends, some were not so nice and it was a bit painful. But such is life...
And just for the record, it's not just women...men do this too. I can't tell you how many times guys flirted hardcore with me only to reject me once I expressed that I was actually interested in them (I was a bit of an Ugly Betty back then and they smelled the desperation). Some were nice about it, and we stayed friends, some were not so nice and it was a bit painful. But such is life...
57
offwhite (@48)
Will you marry me? Oh wait, I forgot, I'm gay!
Oh wait, that's okay! Can I join your co-op?
I LOVE reading postings from evolved individuals,
or groups even... Many blessings!
BTW... My question from last night, (#18) has resolved its self.
Today, all postings are showing at first access, as usual.
Will you marry me? Oh wait, I forgot, I'm gay!
Oh wait, that's okay! Can I join your co-op?
I LOVE reading postings from evolved individuals,
or groups even... Many blessings!
BTW... My question from last night, (#18) has resolved its self.
Today, all postings are showing at first access, as usual.
58
As a lifelong homophobe, I am extremely upset by the accusation of being a racist. You have no right to judge my prejudices with your ill-conceived notion of what goes on in a homophobic mind. It's actually very easy to maintain a single-minded approach to hate and not to jump all over the place with loosey-goosey, limp-wristed, typical liberalism while complaining about the "injustice" of hate. What a bunch of hooey
59
"As for 'handling situations' where you find yourself in the same restroom with your newest coworker, SKIRT, unless you routinely offer to zip up your coworkers or wipe their asses for them, I don't see how his presence—or his attire or the particular brand of genitalia tucked into his panties—really impacts you at all."
Damn, that's brilliant.
Damn, that's brilliant.
60
Great advice to all the people this week Dan. I must take issue with the last letter though - not the person writing it, but the person she's writing about.
Yes, I believe that we all should be free to be who we really are, regardless of what that is, but this is about the WORKPLACE.
Most people in the workplace have enough sense to either not display their whole lifestyle, or tone down who they are in the workplace. It's a professional environment, so why does this guy feel the need to put his personal business on display? That should be reserved for when he goes out AFTER work to the tranny bars, or places where others like him congregate.
This whole situation brings the recent controversy at Morehouse to mind.
Yes, I believe that we all should be free to be who we really are, regardless of what that is, but this is about the WORKPLACE.
Most people in the workplace have enough sense to either not display their whole lifestyle, or tone down who they are in the workplace. It's a professional environment, so why does this guy feel the need to put his personal business on display? That should be reserved for when he goes out AFTER work to the tranny bars, or places where others like him congregate.
This whole situation brings the recent controversy at Morehouse to mind.
61
#5, are you a sensible Cubs fan (a rare human being, in my opinion), or the sensible wife of a Cubs fan? This female Chicagoan and sort-of sensible Cubs fan wants to know!
62
Oh, and for the posters who've wondered about problems with posting/viewing comments: The Stranger appears to be using a third-party comment application now.
If your comment doesn't appear right after you've posted it, give the app a few minutes to make your comment appear. If you can't link to the comments at all, you might need to wait an hour or two and try back.
If a link Dan's included in a post doesn't work, email him directly with a link and the address of the page on which it appears, and he'll take care of the problem quickly.
If your comment doesn't appear right after you've posted it, give the app a few minutes to make your comment appear. If you can't link to the comments at all, you might need to wait an hour or two and try back.
If a link Dan's included in a post doesn't work, email him directly with a link and the address of the page on which it appears, and he'll take care of the problem quickly.
64
Gay is not a race. Even in the workplace. You want her job and you're trying to save face. An excuse to talk to DS, and get a little taste. Of attention to you and your sensitive, worldly embrace. To me, you are just full of s - and your letter was a waste (of column space).
65
#30, your advice is terrific. The coworkers will want to be "discreet" rather than "discrete," though.
66
Goodness. The first letter is easy to answer. The woman may have only been flirting. Hello--she works with him! She was probably never serious about it past that point. Lots of people flirt, esp when it's with someone equally coupled. When he made it clear that he'd like it to be more than innocent flirting, he was no longer safe.
Or perhaps she was actually interested and would have been willing to cheat with him, but only if it could turn into something more. Knowing from the outset that it would never be more than purely sexual--i.e. no possiblity for great love--then game over.
No matter how good a man might be in bed, most women want at least the hope of something emotional/something meaningful to be part of the deal.
Or it could be what Dan said. In any event, I do applaud this guy's honesty about his intentions. That kind of frankness will be rewarded when karma sends the right candidate along his path. Good luck to him.
Or perhaps she was actually interested and would have been willing to cheat with him, but only if it could turn into something more. Knowing from the outset that it would never be more than purely sexual--i.e. no possiblity for great love--then game over.
No matter how good a man might be in bed, most women want at least the hope of something emotional/something meaningful to be part of the deal.
Or it could be what Dan said. In any event, I do applaud this guy's honesty about his intentions. That kind of frankness will be rewarded when karma sends the right candidate along his path. Good luck to him.
67
@56: Possible too. Still, I don't think we'd really know without asking the co-worker herself.
@55: #63 is right. Hovering is definitely a problem with a lot of women.
@55: #63 is right. Hovering is definitely a problem with a lot of women.
68
@48, that's great but there's also a lot of people who are just looking to get laid. Its just as presumptuous to assume anyone wants to be your fling, as it is to presume someone is flirting with you because they're interested in you as a person or might want you to be their primary. When the op discloses, the women stop flirting because the fling is not what they want. This does not make the women ignorant crazies. They just aren't signing up for it. The reason you don't get involved with people who buy into all that, is because they don't want to be involved with you either. This is the phenomenon NFW is experiencing and complaining about, and who I think is just pretending to play dumb to point out he's morally superior to these monogamists who seem ok with cheating. He's right I'm sure, but its still transparent and obnoxious.
69
A person considering a fling with someone in a monogamous relationship views him/her like a dog on a chain: you can control how close you get; you know he/she cannot run free and invade your life. This is probably most appealing to those who tend to feel crowded/suffocated in a standard relationship; either finding it hard to set boundaries and enforce them, or maybe tending to feel most attracted to fuckups who won't ever respect reasonable boundaries.
70
NFW: maybe when she found out that you & your wife swing, she realized that her risk of going home with an STD cocktail between her legs just went up exponentially. HIV & herpes can ruin your whole day.
NMP: I would print out an anonymous letter as follows:
"Dear Carole: I work with you. I am not gay but that's no reason I should have to listen to you use the epithet "faggot" when you are upset about your competitor Hank. If I EVER hear that word in the workplace again, I will file a complaint with H.R. I am writing anonymously to allow you to save face but do NOT mistake that as fear. If getting you to stop means keeping a record of incidents, gathering witnesses and getting you fired, I'll do it. It is 2009. I will not tolerate intolerance.
Thank you."
NMP: I would print out an anonymous letter as follows:
"Dear Carole: I work with you. I am not gay but that's no reason I should have to listen to you use the epithet "faggot" when you are upset about your competitor Hank. If I EVER hear that word in the workplace again, I will file a complaint with H.R. I am writing anonymously to allow you to save face but do NOT mistake that as fear. If getting you to stop means keeping a record of incidents, gathering witnesses and getting you fired, I'll do it. It is 2009. I will not tolerate intolerance.
Thank you."
71
SKIRT's co-worker is right to bring this up with co-workers openly, *before* he decides to go for it and come to work in a skirt. Yes, this is the workplace - but this isn't about his sex life, it's about his lifestyle. I would be the first to agree that bedroom activities shouldn't come into play at the workplace (that includes the kind of flirting the first two letter-writers were doing) - but wearing a skirt has nothing to do with sex.
By floating the idea out there, SKIRT's co-worker is giving the management a chance to quietly tell him there will be a problem, *before* he bites the bullet and shows up in feminine apparel. Any issues would be relatively minor as long as the idea is hypothetical - but once he shows up to work in a dress, then everything is official and HR and lawyers and who knows who else may be dragged in. Even if the immediate co-workers don't have an issue with it, it could turn into an HR nightmare.
By floating the idea out there, SKIRT's co-worker is giving the management a chance to quietly tell him there will be a problem, *before* he bites the bullet and shows up in feminine apparel. Any issues would be relatively minor as long as the idea is hypothetical - but once he shows up to work in a dress, then everything is official and HR and lawyers and who knows who else may be dragged in. Even if the immediate co-workers don't have an issue with it, it could turn into an HR nightmare.
72
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me. (by Martin Niemöller)
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me. (by Martin Niemöller)
74
Re Not My Problem:
Don't have a word with HR ... yet.
You owe it to yourself to have a word with the co-worker before you go to HR. You don't need to mention your orientation, which has nothing to do with this. All you need say is, "Look, you keep saying 'faggot' and I find it highly offensive and unprofessional. I'd like you to stop. I don't want to go to HR because maybe you haven't thought about how offensive that word is."
You'll atone for your sin of silence and you might even help her understand that she is being hurtful and stupid. If she's a deep bigot and keeps using it, THEN go to HR.
Don't have a word with HR ... yet.
You owe it to yourself to have a word with the co-worker before you go to HR. You don't need to mention your orientation, which has nothing to do with this. All you need say is, "Look, you keep saying 'faggot' and I find it highly offensive and unprofessional. I'd like you to stop. I don't want to go to HR because maybe you haven't thought about how offensive that word is."
You'll atone for your sin of silence and you might even help her understand that she is being hurtful and stupid. If she's a deep bigot and keeps using it, THEN go to HR.
75
NFW: I am a single woman, and I have a married male friend with whom I share an acknowledged mutual attraction. I would be deliriously happy and consider myself very lucky if his wife gave him permission to fuck me (unfortunately for me, they are monogamous and it's not open for discussion). Being the second to someone in an open marriage has some points in its favour: the lack of strings, the relative safety, the relatively low drama factor. I'm sure there are other women out there who feel the same.
@74: totally agree.
@74: totally agree.
76
Oops missed this one, from MT3:
"It's a professional environment, so why does this guy feel the need to put his personal business on display? That should be reserved for when he goes out AFTER work to the tranny bars, or places where others like him congregate."
His personal business? Like, say, the pictures of your wife on your desk? (Why do people need to advertise their sex lives?) Like, your photo of Kirk Gibson after he hit the homer for the Dodgers? (How do your hobbies have any place in the workplace?) Like, say, any mention around the water cooler of what you're doing after work or on the weekend? (Stop wasting work time!)
No straight person ever thinks they're putting their personal business on display when they talk about their spouses. No man who identifies as male and wants to dress as a male ever thinks he's advertising that fact when he wears a pair of pants in public.
MT3, shut up unless you're willing to wear a unisex smock to work. How could it possibly matter to you how your coworker dresses, so long as it's a professional skirt or professional pants?
"It's a professional environment, so why does this guy feel the need to put his personal business on display? That should be reserved for when he goes out AFTER work to the tranny bars, or places where others like him congregate."
His personal business? Like, say, the pictures of your wife on your desk? (Why do people need to advertise their sex lives?) Like, your photo of Kirk Gibson after he hit the homer for the Dodgers? (How do your hobbies have any place in the workplace?) Like, say, any mention around the water cooler of what you're doing after work or on the weekend? (Stop wasting work time!)
No straight person ever thinks they're putting their personal business on display when they talk about their spouses. No man who identifies as male and wants to dress as a male ever thinks he's advertising that fact when he wears a pair of pants in public.
MT3, shut up unless you're willing to wear a unisex smock to work. How could it possibly matter to you how your coworker dresses, so long as it's a professional skirt or professional pants?
77
I just went through every comment to see if Dan's last sentence offended anyone else, other than me. That is not the correct use of "impact." And Dan show know that.
See:
http://books.google.com/books?id=z_VmtjA…
To use "impact" improperly is leotarded, Dan.
See:
http://books.google.com/books?id=z_VmtjA…
To use "impact" improperly is leotarded, Dan.
78
I have a coworker that uses the word gay to describe things she dislikes or thinks are stupid. She's aware that I'm gay, she seems to have no problem with it. She has even asked to come to the gay bars on several occasions. Imagine my shock when she hollers, and I mean hollers loud while we're in the middle of a conversation standing in a parking lot. Literally hollered GAY to her friend across the lot to tell her how ridiculous she thought the outfit on her daughter was. This has turned into a trend which I cut short by telling her that I don't give a shit if she doesn't understand why I find that incredibly offensive but I expect her to respect the way I feel about it. Haven't heard it since but frankly I certainly wouldn't be surprised that someone that self involved still uses it when i'm not around. sad...
79
NMP is none other than Savage himself. All slurs are inappropriate and on those grounds none should be used in the workplace. But there's is no comparison to be made between the slur that 'NMP' has supposedly heard and the one Savage used in the 'response' to 'her'. There's a long clear history of murder and all imaginable atrocities associated with the N word that bears no historical nor social comparison whatsoever in this country with any other slur that can be uttered. All African Americans know this all too painfully well.
SKIRT's coworkers shouldn't have to be the ones dealing with this problem, this matter should be taken head-on by the his employer as soon as possible cause this has the potential of creating a very uncomfortable work environment. Based on the fact that SKIRT as a male in his previous job did the same thing and remained as a male, his intentions are not of someone who identifies with any clear gender. This is a very frequent behavior expressed by people like him and coworkers of his both male and female have every reason to feel uncomfortable and talk with HR if they don't address this matter with SKIRT and he decides to present himself in women's clothing and make use of the restrooms. Because the freedoms of expression we all enjoy are not a green light to inconvenience and disrupt upon the lives and work of those around.
SKIRT's coworkers shouldn't have to be the ones dealing with this problem, this matter should be taken head-on by the his employer as soon as possible cause this has the potential of creating a very uncomfortable work environment. Based on the fact that SKIRT as a male in his previous job did the same thing and remained as a male, his intentions are not of someone who identifies with any clear gender. This is a very frequent behavior expressed by people like him and coworkers of his both male and female have every reason to feel uncomfortable and talk with HR if they don't address this matter with SKIRT and he decides to present himself in women's clothing and make use of the restrooms. Because the freedoms of expression we all enjoy are not a green light to inconvenience and disrupt upon the lives and work of those around.
80
"There's a long clear history of murder and all imaginable atrocities associated with the N word that bears no historical nor social comparison whatsoever in this country with any other slur that can be uttered"
@79 and several others:
You're suggesting that the word "faggot" has not been used in association with oppression or murder? Or that it still isn't? What if someone said that "The N Word" can't be compared to "faggot", and that "faggot" is the more oppressive one because it is used against people who still don't have their civil rights.
@79 and several others:
You're suggesting that the word "faggot" has not been used in association with oppression or murder? Or that it still isn't? What if someone said that "The N Word" can't be compared to "faggot", and that "faggot" is the more oppressive one because it is used against people who still don't have their civil rights.
81
@ 79 again.
I'm not done. I can think of other terms that stand a chance against "The N Word", in regards to your statement that no other slur can compare. What about "The G Word" and "The J Word", used against Asians or Asian-Americans. Consider that the Chinese were banned from entering the US for decades, and the Japanese were put in internment camps during World War II.
I could come up with more examples if you require them.
I'm not done. I can think of other terms that stand a chance against "The N Word", in regards to your statement that no other slur can compare. What about "The G Word" and "The J Word", used against Asians or Asian-Americans. Consider that the Chinese were banned from entering the US for decades, and the Japanese were put in internment camps during World War II.
I could come up with more examples if you require them.
83
re:NFW (the suddenly disinterested female at work) Be grateful! I actually gave permission to a woman to fool around with my husband, and she fell for him SO HARD that she tried to fuck with his head and get him to leave me! Sheesh! FWIW, I think flirting at work is fun, but bringing someone from work into a non-monogamous situation takes just too much work with boundary issues. Thankfully, we're back to sane, reasonable extra lovers, not insanely jealous ones!
84
To Not My Problem:
Homosexuals are not a protected class under the constitution (yet), so you will likely not get the same reaction from HR that you would if your coworker was using a racial slur. The outcome will likely depend on how liberal your company is, so perhaps you should raise the issue with your coworker first. If she knows you are offended, she may stop using the offensive language. If she overreacts to your suggestion, that may be more evidence to take to HR.
Homosexuals are not a protected class under the constitution (yet), so you will likely not get the same reaction from HR that you would if your coworker was using a racial slur. The outcome will likely depend on how liberal your company is, so perhaps you should raise the issue with your coworker first. If she knows you are offended, she may stop using the offensive language. If she overreacts to your suggestion, that may be more evidence to take to HR.
85
I agree with eaglecrowgirl.
Before running to HR, I'd suggest just telling the coworker you're uncomfortable with how she's talking. Ask her not to use that kind of language in the workplace, straight out.
Sometimes, peer pressure is enough to get people behaving the right way.
Before running to HR, I'd suggest just telling the coworker you're uncomfortable with how she's talking. Ask her not to use that kind of language in the workplace, straight out.
Sometimes, peer pressure is enough to get people behaving the right way.
86
Dan: 'This woman didn't find the idea of cheating with you "okay," NFW, she wanted to fuck you because you're married and presumably monogamous.'
This is along the same lines of that phenomenon that every guy is familiar with: many women find you more appealing when you're involved with another woman than when you're single and available.
This is along the same lines of that phenomenon that every guy is familiar with: many women find you more appealing when you're involved with another woman than when you're single and available.
87
#42/Karey: "I think most guys, married or not, get turned down when all they're offering a woman is a fling. Its the eternal problem for guys who are just wanting to get laid."
Absolutely. It's much harder for a typical man to find a woman for casual sex than it is for a typical woman to find a man for that. Men like an emotional connection but they don't require it in order to fuck to the degree that women do.
I'm not excusing lying in order to get laid but the reason men do it is that most women require some profession of feelings from a guy before they're willing to get naked with him. Women don't have to lie in order to get laid because if a woman is honest with a guy and says, "I just wanna have sex", his response is "No problem!"
Absolutely. It's much harder for a typical man to find a woman for casual sex than it is for a typical woman to find a man for that. Men like an emotional connection but they don't require it in order to fuck to the degree that women do.
I'm not excusing lying in order to get laid but the reason men do it is that most women require some profession of feelings from a guy before they're willing to get naked with him. Women don't have to lie in order to get laid because if a woman is honest with a guy and says, "I just wanna have sex", his response is "No problem!"
88
The words "nigger" and "faggot" are completely inappropriate in the work place, as is the word "tard" and "retarded" for any publication with a modicum of integrity. Dan and The Stranger, I'm looking at you. See Slog posting: http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive….
89
*applauds #76*
I worked with a woman once who talked endlessly at work about her ex-husband and her troubled son. One time, when I'd heard enough from her about how gays "should keep their personal lives private," I turned to her and asked, as sweetly as possible, "Nancy, do you leave your personal life at home?"
I never heard her use the "gays should keep their personal lives private" line again.
I worked with a woman once who talked endlessly at work about her ex-husband and her troubled son. One time, when I'd heard enough from her about how gays "should keep their personal lives private," I turned to her and asked, as sweetly as possible, "Nancy, do you leave your personal life at home?"
I never heard her use the "gays should keep their personal lives private" line again.
91
@40, 42, 44
You're all spot on about what's happening here. Not exactly sexy for her to find out that she really is just a piece of ass for him. Woman can get laid any day of the week. No thanks - she's gone. Either that, or this chick really *was* just flirting and had no intention of making it a reality.
@57
Oh wow, you're both just soooooo "evolved" from the rest of the lower species of monogamous people. STFU, dickwad. Accept the fact that people are all different when it comes to what they want/can handle in love and relationships and most people are just comfortable with monogamy. Are bisexuals "evolved" because they can have sex with both genders? Are gay people "evolved" because they can have sex with people of their same gender? Of course not. They're just different. You ain't better than nobody, asshole, and it's pathetic you've led yourself to believe that. Get a life.
You're all spot on about what's happening here. Not exactly sexy for her to find out that she really is just a piece of ass for him. Woman can get laid any day of the week. No thanks - she's gone. Either that, or this chick really *was* just flirting and had no intention of making it a reality.
@57
Oh wow, you're both just soooooo "evolved" from the rest of the lower species of monogamous people. STFU, dickwad. Accept the fact that people are all different when it comes to what they want/can handle in love and relationships and most people are just comfortable with monogamy. Are bisexuals "evolved" because they can have sex with both genders? Are gay people "evolved" because they can have sex with people of their same gender? Of course not. They're just different. You ain't better than nobody, asshole, and it's pathetic you've led yourself to believe that. Get a life.
92
@91: I still find that sentiment ironic. When you're the woman a man is cheating with on his wife, she's generally a "piece of ass."
I mean, sure, there could be an emotional connection there, and it'd be a full-blown affair, but we've heard so many cases of women who hope that a husband would leave his wife for her after fucking around for a while -- and he doesn't, because he'd be risking kids, his bank account, whatever, etc., and he was just looking for some fun.
I mean, sure, there could be an emotional connection there, and it'd be a full-blown affair, but we've heard so many cases of women who hope that a husband would leave his wife for her after fucking around for a while -- and he doesn't, because he'd be risking kids, his bank account, whatever, etc., and he was just looking for some fun.
93
"If your coworker is female, she should use the women’s room. If he is male, he should use the men’s room."
FIFY.
FIFY.
94
@5 "there's lots of alt answers for NFW, but most likely, the coworker he's flirting with is HELLO! FLIRTING. Not trying to get laid--flirting. As long as he's putatively monogamous, that's safe enough, but once it becomes a serious possibility, she's out of there."
Good call. An old friend recently put an abrupt end to the 'dirtier' aspect of our now long-distance friendship when I suggested we hook up when he comes to town. He'll flirt - hell, he'll talk dirty and send homemade porn - but the thought of actually fucking a married woman apparently did him in.
Good call. An old friend recently put an abrupt end to the 'dirtier' aspect of our now long-distance friendship when I suggested we hook up when he comes to town. He'll flirt - hell, he'll talk dirty and send homemade porn - but the thought of actually fucking a married woman apparently did him in.
95
I have an observation along the same lines as Dan's to NFW. I traveled a lot in my job and was away from home weeks and months at a time. I eventually had to stop wearing my wedding ring so that women would quit hitting on me. I guess in their minds the fact some woman, my wife, wanted me, I was worth persuing. Without the ring I was just another single guy .
97
I am in a strange situation. I work in the corporate sector in marketing and sales. It is a high-stress, fast-paced job, and everyone has a short fuse. I have a coworker who is losing business to a competitor who happens to HAVE A MENTAL DISABILITY. In her fits of anger, she keeps calling him a RETARD. I hate it. The thing is, I am not MENTALLY DISABLED. And if anyone in our office is, they are in the closet. She has used the word in front of other coworkers and even our boss, and no one seems to be bothered.
I am torn about what I should do. I am black, and if she were using the word "nigger," I would call her on it and raise issue with our HR department. Can I file a complaint on behalf of a group I do not belong to? If she found out I complained, she would see it as a threat to her own job, which could lead to a decidedly hostile workplace. But if it were a racial slur, I would not let that deter me. I want to do the right thing. How would you handle the situation?
Not My Problem?
If someone at my office were tossing the word "RETARD" around, NMP, I would lodge a complaint. I would resent the assumption on my coworker's part that since I'm NOT MENTALLY DISABLED she can use HATE speech in my presence, because, hey, all us NOT MENTALLY DISABLED people THINK IT'S FUNNY, right? And I would complain because a workplace that tolerates HATEFUL remarks is a workplace that tolerates homophobic remarks. If people are using "nigger" when there aren't any black people in the room, they're doubtless using "RETARD" when there aren't any MENTALLY DISABLED people in the room. And vice versa. Have a word with HR.
Awesome advice, Dan Savage. You hypocrite.
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
More...
I am torn about what I should do. I am black, and if she were using the word "nigger," I would call her on it and raise issue with our HR department. Can I file a complaint on behalf of a group I do not belong to? If she found out I complained, she would see it as a threat to her own job, which could lead to a decidedly hostile workplace. But if it were a racial slur, I would not let that deter me. I want to do the right thing. How would you handle the situation?
Not My Problem?
If someone at my office were tossing the word "RETARD" around, NMP, I would lodge a complaint. I would resent the assumption on my coworker's part that since I'm NOT MENTALLY DISABLED she can use HATE speech in my presence, because, hey, all us NOT MENTALLY DISABLED people THINK IT'S FUNNY, right? And I would complain because a workplace that tolerates HATEFUL remarks is a workplace that tolerates homophobic remarks. If people are using "nigger" when there aren't any black people in the room, they're doubtless using "RETARD" when there aren't any MENTALLY DISABLED people in the room. And vice versa. Have a word with HR.
Awesome advice, Dan Savage. You hypocrite.
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
98
Re: #95 and others who've made similar comments about married men being more attractive.
Sure, maybe it's some unconscious female competition, or maybe it's just harmless flirting...
But, maybe? Maybe married men are more attractive because they're not trying so hard. One of the things I hate about being single is that so few single men just "talk" to me. They're always working an angle, trying a pitch--and I feel manipulated and, on occasion, repulsed by them. I often wonder, "If they have to go to such lengths to present such an orchestrated script/scenario/line, is it because they've got nothing real to offer?"
With married men, they interact more naturally cuz they're not trying to score with you. That leaves you more of an opportunity to get to know them...and, surprise surprise, feelings can develop.
I also find that I'm less guarded about myself with men that I know to be taken... so maybe that's part of it too.
Sure, maybe it's some unconscious female competition, or maybe it's just harmless flirting...
But, maybe? Maybe married men are more attractive because they're not trying so hard. One of the things I hate about being single is that so few single men just "talk" to me. They're always working an angle, trying a pitch--and I feel manipulated and, on occasion, repulsed by them. I often wonder, "If they have to go to such lengths to present such an orchestrated script/scenario/line, is it because they've got nothing real to offer?"
With married men, they interact more naturally cuz they're not trying to score with you. That leaves you more of an opportunity to get to know them...and, surprise surprise, feelings can develop.
I also find that I'm less guarded about myself with men that I know to be taken... so maybe that's part of it too.
99
Following the track that a number of other folks have picked up on, if you substituted "retard" for "nigger" or "faggot," though, that would be okay in Dan Savage's world, right? Just a different kind of discriminatory and hate-filled word based on someone's genetic makeup (hey, kind of like having a different skin color or being gay!) that's okay to throw around without regard for the consequences. 'Cause "if people are using "retard" when there aren't any disabled people in the room, they're doubtless using "faggot" when there aren't any gay people in the room", right?
100
Well, damn. I think OSA just made a fantastic point there, Dan.
Care to respond? How is this different, exactly?
Care to respond? How is this different, exactly?
101
Regarding the first letter about the married man in open relationship. I think Dan hits the nail on the head, but don't forget about the fact that in your open relationship you could possibly be spreading cooties from one woman to another instead of being a married guy with one outside relationship and a lower possiblility of cooties.
102
Regarding the first letter about the married man in open relationship. I think Dan hit the nail on the head, but don't forget about the fact that in your open relationship you could possibly be spreading cooties from one woman to another instead of being a married guy with one outside relationship and a lower possiblility of cooties.
103
I find it rather odd that the word "faggot" is somehow offensive to Mr. Savage but he has no problem calling people with mental disabilities "tard" or "retard". I can only assume that he doesn't really mean it and that calling gay people "faggot" is perfectly acceptable in his world.
So to the letter writer I would suggest that you do what Mr. Savage does rather than what he says and simply go along with your co-worker's use of the word. Use it yourself!
So to the letter writer I would suggest that you do what Mr. Savage does rather than what he says and simply go along with your co-worker's use of the word. Use it yourself!
104
People who preferentially seek out the mates of others are known as "mate-poachers" in the research literature. they are shown to often be untrustworthy, selfish, arrogant and generally not nice. I recently published a book, Insatiable Wives, Women who Stray and the Men Who Love Them, that explores the dynamics and issues of both the first two letters. And, it includes several nice references to Savage Love!
105
@97: I completely agree that Dan's response to NMP is inconsistent and hypocritical given his recent use of the word "Tard" to refer to men with Down syndrome. Dan Savage can claim the f-word for himself, but he does not get to decide
whether or not the word "Tard" is offensive. And neither do you, @51. As the mother of a child with Down syndrome who is not yet old enough yet to advocate for himself, I do.
whether or not the word "Tard" is offensive. And neither do you, @51. As the mother of a child with Down syndrome who is not yet old enough yet to advocate for himself, I do.
106
So sad. Who are you Mr. Savage, to decide that "n**ger" and "f*gg*t" are unacceptable words, yet the word "tard" is perfectly fine. I've got news for you; THEY ARE ALL UNACCEPTABLE! You may find humor in the word "tard", but it is a word that has inflicted pain and shame on millions of people with mental disabilities because ignorant people like you like to yak it up as "funny". Laugh as much as you choose, but you will not laugh me out of my opinion. You are a hypocrite, Mr. Savage; and a mean one at that.
107
#105: I don't see the hypocracy. "Retard" does is just plain not the same as "Nigger" or "Faggot". You can't deny a guy a job because he's black. You shouldn't be able to deny a guy a job because he's gay. But you can definitely deny a guy a job because he's retarded.
Black people should not have to be treated like less-capable human beings just because they are black. Gay people should not have to be treated like less-capable human beings just because they are gay. Retarded people are less-capable human beings my definition.
So implying someone is incompetent because they are black or gay is offensive. Implying someone is incompetent because they are retarded is, well, true.
Black people should not have to be treated like less-capable human beings just because they are black. Gay people should not have to be treated like less-capable human beings just because they are gay. Retarded people are less-capable human beings my definition.
So implying someone is incompetent because they are black or gay is offensive. Implying someone is incompetent because they are retarded is, well, true.
108
RE: NMP. I asked once and I'll ask you again Dan, just what are you thinking? Oz Squad Alpha's comment is rational and correct, as are the others who have commented on your hypocrisy. Surely you "get it" by now. Your silence does not surprise me, but it does speak volumes. We are left to draw our own conclusions. Perhaps you won't apologize for your use of the word tard, retard, etc. because you are unable to admit when you are wrong. If you did, it would damage your ego, change the way your readers think of you, hurt your standing or lose you 'cool points'? Or, maybe you simply disregard people with intellectual disabilities because you see them as less than worthy of respect and having little value. They just don't matter to you? If any of these are your reasons, let me just say, that's a bag of BS. It's not to late Dan. Admit your hypocrisy and apologize, or, watch as parents of children with disabilities (like me) take you to school and hand you your own back end. Then again, maybe you just love the attention.
---JRS
---JRS
109
#51 jssmbdy: So what you are saying is that it is OK to use a word to insult someone as long as you don't use it to insult someone who it actually applies to. So it would be wrong to call Mr. Savage a faggot but it would be OK to call a person who acts like the stereotype of a gay person but who isn't gay, a faggot. Don't you worry that doing so would create a hostile environment for gay people even if the word wasn't directed at them? And, of course, in this case Mr. Savage did direct the word at people with Down syndrome so your argument seems to not apply.
And I should add that most people with Down syndrome are perfectly aware they are being insulted when they are called "retard" or when that word is used around them.
And I should add that most people with Down syndrome are perfectly aware they are being insulted when they are called "retard" or when that word is used around them.
111
Too many comments here already but here`s my 2 cents. Regarding NWP, I think she should talk to the person throwing the word faggot around herself. She can start the conversation with: I know you are pissed off with X, but...
The offender doesn`t even necessarily have a particular problem with gays, just the one that she is in competition with and she needs to know that NWP doesn`t find her speech acceptable. Talking to HR before talking to her escalates the situation when this may not be necessary. HR are always there for backup if the direct approach fails.
The offender doesn`t even necessarily have a particular problem with gays, just the one that she is in competition with and she needs to know that NWP doesn`t find her speech acceptable. Talking to HR before talking to her escalates the situation when this may not be necessary. HR are always there for backup if the direct approach fails.
112
perhaps the coworker in NMP's office just watched the recent south park that suggests the word 'fag' should no longer be used as a derogatory term for gay, and instead is a non-sexual insult similar to asshole or fuckwad. if so, it would be irrelevant that the competitor is gay; he might simply be an asshole.
114
@110: Gee---for someone who signs his /her name "forward thinking", it doesn't sound like you are.
Get a grip!
Get a grip!
116
In relation to NMP, here in Maryland the law is such that if someone uses a term and a third party overhears it and is offended, that person can sue the enterprise for sexual harassment. That is, one doesn't have to be involved at all, one could just be overhearing something in another cubicle.
117
Are you EFFIN kiddin' me, Dan?
1. You have the balls to argue that somebody should lodge an HR or legal complaint when using the f- or n-word in a derogatory manner (which, in fact, I agree that they should), but at the same time you use "retard" or "tard" or "retarded" or "leotarded" (long list, huh?) in a derogatory manner all the time???
2. Is your argument based solely on the idea that discrimination against Black people and gays/lesbians is illegal under U.S. anti-discrimination law? Hmmmm... that doesn't quite work given that all people with disabilities (including INTELLECTUAL DISABILITIES) are afforded the same exact legal rights (and in some cases MORE protection) under Federal and State laws.
3. You argue that you would "resent the assumption... that since [you're] white she can use racist speech" in your presence. So, is it just RACIST speech that offends you because you're not a racist POS (your words, not mine)? Does that mean that you are just a POS that thinks it's okay to demean, belittle, ostracize, offend, patronize, and trample on the rights of people with a mental disability?
4. Is your argument that racist and anti-gay language is not okay because if a workplace tolerates one, they must tolerate the other? That doesn't seem to be the case in your workplace. Obviously, you don't tolerate racist or anti-gay language (except when you "claim" the f-word for yourself) in your workplace, but advocate for using the word "retard" as synonymous with "dumbass," "lame," and "stupid," or simply to poke fun at people with an intellectual disability. So, if you don't tolerate some, why do tolerate (and yourself use!) the word retard in a similar fashion? Although I do not know for sure, I'm willing to put money on the fact that no person with an intellectual disability would claim the word "retard" like you choose to claim the f-word.
5. Interestingly, you told NMP that if people use the n-word when no Black people are around they are likely using the f-word when no gay people are in the room. I claim this is interesting because you clearly use "retard" regardless of who hears it, including people who themselves have, or are family members of somebody who has, an intellectual disability. Hell, you even call people with these disabilities "retards"!!!!
6. Clearly you wouldn't claim using "retard" is your First Amendment right while arguing that people shouldn't be afforded the same First Amendment rights to use other hateful and hurtful speech (f- and n-words are you most recent examples in this blog post). Honestly, that was probably the only argument I would have bought from you. Just because speech is protected by the First Amendment doesn't make it right or good, but at least the First Amendment affords me the right to tell somebody who uses hurtful speech what I think of it. And trust me, I'm trying REAL hard to use my protected speech in an effective and meaningful way right now instead of using a long list of ad hominem attacks.
7. Maybe you simply don't value people with intellectual disabilities... People who use the f- and n-words clearly don't respect and value Black people or gays/lesbians. So maybe that's it. Maybe you don't value people with mental disabilities. But wait. That doesn't work either, does it, Dan? Because you were ready to embrace your child back when you thought FAS was a possibility.
I can't figure it out on my own, Dan. I need your help, and your silence begs too many questions...
So, back to my original question: Are you effin kiddin' me? Either you are a hypocrite, or you're a dumbass that can't see when his own logic has failed him.
I WILL ASK YOU AGAIN, PLEASE DO ONE OF THE FOLLOWING:
1. CHANGE THE TITLE OF YOUR "TARD SUPPER" BLOG POST AND ISSUE A PUBLIC APOLOGY
OR
2. EXPLAIN WHY YOU REFUSE TO DO SO
The people with intellectual disabilities - and their friends and family who love them - weren't in the room when you wrote "Tard Supper" so just help us understand why all people should embrace such labels.
More...
1. You have the balls to argue that somebody should lodge an HR or legal complaint when using the f- or n-word in a derogatory manner (which, in fact, I agree that they should), but at the same time you use "retard" or "tard" or "retarded" or "leotarded" (long list, huh?) in a derogatory manner all the time???
2. Is your argument based solely on the idea that discrimination against Black people and gays/lesbians is illegal under U.S. anti-discrimination law? Hmmmm... that doesn't quite work given that all people with disabilities (including INTELLECTUAL DISABILITIES) are afforded the same exact legal rights (and in some cases MORE protection) under Federal and State laws.
3. You argue that you would "resent the assumption... that since [you're] white she can use racist speech" in your presence. So, is it just RACIST speech that offends you because you're not a racist POS (your words, not mine)? Does that mean that you are just a POS that thinks it's okay to demean, belittle, ostracize, offend, patronize, and trample on the rights of people with a mental disability?
4. Is your argument that racist and anti-gay language is not okay because if a workplace tolerates one, they must tolerate the other? That doesn't seem to be the case in your workplace. Obviously, you don't tolerate racist or anti-gay language (except when you "claim" the f-word for yourself) in your workplace, but advocate for using the word "retard" as synonymous with "dumbass," "lame," and "stupid," or simply to poke fun at people with an intellectual disability. So, if you don't tolerate some, why do tolerate (and yourself use!) the word retard in a similar fashion? Although I do not know for sure, I'm willing to put money on the fact that no person with an intellectual disability would claim the word "retard" like you choose to claim the f-word.
5. Interestingly, you told NMP that if people use the n-word when no Black people are around they are likely using the f-word when no gay people are in the room. I claim this is interesting because you clearly use "retard" regardless of who hears it, including people who themselves have, or are family members of somebody who has, an intellectual disability. Hell, you even call people with these disabilities "retards"!!!!
6. Clearly you wouldn't claim using "retard" is your First Amendment right while arguing that people shouldn't be afforded the same First Amendment rights to use other hateful and hurtful speech (f- and n-words are you most recent examples in this blog post). Honestly, that was probably the only argument I would have bought from you. Just because speech is protected by the First Amendment doesn't make it right or good, but at least the First Amendment affords me the right to tell somebody who uses hurtful speech what I think of it. And trust me, I'm trying REAL hard to use my protected speech in an effective and meaningful way right now instead of using a long list of ad hominem attacks.
7. Maybe you simply don't value people with intellectual disabilities... People who use the f- and n-words clearly don't respect and value Black people or gays/lesbians. So maybe that's it. Maybe you don't value people with mental disabilities. But wait. That doesn't work either, does it, Dan? Because you were ready to embrace your child back when you thought FAS was a possibility.
I can't figure it out on my own, Dan. I need your help, and your silence begs too many questions...
So, back to my original question: Are you effin kiddin' me? Either you are a hypocrite, or you're a dumbass that can't see when his own logic has failed him.
I WILL ASK YOU AGAIN, PLEASE DO ONE OF THE FOLLOWING:
1. CHANGE THE TITLE OF YOUR "TARD SUPPER" BLOG POST AND ISSUE A PUBLIC APOLOGY
OR
2. EXPLAIN WHY YOU REFUSE TO DO SO
The people with intellectual disabilities - and their friends and family who love them - weren't in the room when you wrote "Tard Supper" so just help us understand why all people should embrace such labels.
118
@98
Excellent point! I hadn't thought of that, but it's so true. Always being "pitched to" all the time really is unattractive and a buzz kill. And it reeks of desperation. Women are sooooo used to the pathetic pitches all day long that it's refreshing to be around someone that's not playing any game, just being himself. And it draws her in. Makes perfect sense.
Excellent point! I hadn't thought of that, but it's so true. Always being "pitched to" all the time really is unattractive and a buzz kill. And it reeks of desperation. Women are sooooo used to the pathetic pitches all day long that it's refreshing to be around someone that's not playing any game, just being himself. And it draws her in. Makes perfect sense.
119
Not My Problem needs to first address the offending co-worker directly. If the use of "faggot" persists after that, then it would be appropriate to go to management or HR.
120
@107, there are a lot of folks out there with mental retardation who hold jobs and contribute to society. In offices, even. I know a local fellow with Down syndrome who works in a law office preparing case files for court.
As long as they meet the job requirements, folks with retardation should have the exact same opportunity to work a job as anyone else. Denying someone a job for which they are qualified just because they have retardation is also blatant discrimination.
And besides, I think the point is more about the vocabulary in this case, isn't it?
I think it's all been said, but I will throw out there that I am sick of the hypocrisy, Dan.
As long as they meet the job requirements, folks with retardation should have the exact same opportunity to work a job as anyone else. Denying someone a job for which they are qualified just because they have retardation is also blatant discrimination.
And besides, I think the point is more about the vocabulary in this case, isn't it?
I think it's all been said, but I will throw out there that I am sick of the hypocrisy, Dan.
121
I agree with the commenters about Dan's double-standard; a slur is a slur, and I'm still ticked that Dan Savage, whose columns I love and read every week, would think that writing "tard" or "retarded" is okay.
jssmbdy (comment #51) makes an interesting point, and it's true that the word "retarded" began with a non-pejorative meaning, but so did "negro," and people tend to avoid that word today, because its context has changed. I believe "retarded" is the same way.
Regardless: come on, Dan, explain yourself!
jssmbdy (comment #51) makes an interesting point, and it's true that the word "retarded" began with a non-pejorative meaning, but so did "negro," and people tend to avoid that word today, because its context has changed. I believe "retarded" is the same way.
Regardless: come on, Dan, explain yourself!
122
I am not a lawyer but it is my belief that harassment is illegal - and use of the terms 'nigger' and 'faggot' DO fall under the definition of harassment. This co-worker may find herself in a lot of unexpected hot water for what might seem to her like a small thing. Workplaces are still fearful of harassment suits.
I worked in a DNA sequencing lab for a few months which was managed by a man who lost his previous job because he had a kitschy postcard of a girl in a swim suit from Florida - totally as a joke, the guy is gay. One of the women who worked for him saw it, took him to court, she won, he was out the door and was unable to find another job because once HR sees a sexual harassment suit on your record they won't touch you with a 10 foot pole.
I would talk to the co-worker 1 to 1, point out that the use of the word is offensive, and remind her of exactly what she is jumping into.
I worked in a DNA sequencing lab for a few months which was managed by a man who lost his previous job because he had a kitschy postcard of a girl in a swim suit from Florida - totally as a joke, the guy is gay. One of the women who worked for him saw it, took him to court, she won, he was out the door and was unable to find another job because once HR sees a sexual harassment suit on your record they won't touch you with a 10 foot pole.
I would talk to the co-worker 1 to 1, point out that the use of the word is offensive, and remind her of exactly what she is jumping into.
123
I wonder when all the people clogging this forum with comments about Dan's misuse of the word "retarded" are going to figure out that Dan doesn't read these comments. You'll be far more likely to get the results you crave if you fill his email inbox instead, folks.
124
Dear Jesus God, where do you people come from? You are talking about your workplace here! Married people - stop looking for a piece on the side at work! Do you know what adultery does to your workplace rep? Even the most tolerant of bosses will place you in the "drama generation" column when assessing employee value for that one. NOCLUE, your name is perfect, really! What if your co-worker's not at all interested and goes around telling everybody "EEEECCCH, that old married lady in Documentation (or whatever) hit on me"? Do you know what it does to your career to have that be "the word" on you? Excellent advice from the Olivia Dukakis character in Moonstruck: Don't shit where you eat. Get your tail elsewhere!
127
So...have we officially banned the use of the words "nigger" and "faggot" in all workplaces, public places, and all media except cable TV stand-up comedy, hip-hop and/or gay comic performances?
Or are we still in that amorphous world in which the acceptability of slang terminology depends on the context and intent, depending on the comfort level of all those persons in the universe, and in perpetuity.
Personally, as a VERY gay-friendly guy, I hear the words "faggot" and "queer" used by gay and straight alike; the insinuated intent and context of the usage seems to be the determining factor as to whether the terms are to be interpreted as slang or as cultural slurs. The same is true with the term "nigger" (niggah). I find the term generally distasteful and insulting, but it is a slang term widely used by my black friends, but with a potent exclusion for "white folk." Should it not be subject to the same context-related criteria?
The main difference seems to be an implied threat of violent retribution for a misused reference. Both terms carry an identical penalty for malicious harassment (and penalties therefore.) Shouldn't the social implications be uniform?
Or are we still in that amorphous world in which the acceptability of slang terminology depends on the context and intent, depending on the comfort level of all those persons in the universe, and in perpetuity.
Personally, as a VERY gay-friendly guy, I hear the words "faggot" and "queer" used by gay and straight alike; the insinuated intent and context of the usage seems to be the determining factor as to whether the terms are to be interpreted as slang or as cultural slurs. The same is true with the term "nigger" (niggah). I find the term generally distasteful and insulting, but it is a slang term widely used by my black friends, but with a potent exclusion for "white folk." Should it not be subject to the same context-related criteria?
The main difference seems to be an implied threat of violent retribution for a misused reference. Both terms carry an identical penalty for malicious harassment (and penalties therefore.) Shouldn't the social implications be uniform?
128
I read NMP's letter yesterday and thought "Wow, what a jerk you should totally say something" Dan's advice was spot on. Then later in the day I found myself standing by quietly while someone made derogatory comments about a transgendered person. Now I'm the jerk and I feel like scum...
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"Smile when you say that."
My momma likes to use the Gary Cooper for perspective when it comes to words.
That's not that line. Cooper and the book both said, "When you call me that, SMILE."
The Virginian hadn't paid attention to someone earlier calling him a son of a bitch. The narrator was shocked. It was a time and place where men have killed each other for less.
When the villain says it...
Therefore Trampas spoke. "Your bet, you son-of-a--."
The Virginian's pistol came out, and his hand lay on the table, holding it unaimed. And with a voice as gentle as ever, the voice that sounded almost like a caress, but drawling a very little more than usual, so that there was almost a space between each word, he issued his orders to the man Trampas: "When you call me that, SMILE." And he looked at Trampas across the table.
My momma likes to use the Gary Cooper for perspective when it comes to words.
That's not that line. Cooper and the book both said, "When you call me that, SMILE."
The Virginian hadn't paid attention to someone earlier calling him a son of a bitch. The narrator was shocked. It was a time and place where men have killed each other for less.
When the villain says it...
Therefore Trampas spoke. "Your bet, you son-of-a--."
The Virginian's pistol came out, and his hand lay on the table, holding it unaimed. And with a voice as gentle as ever, the voice that sounded almost like a caress, but drawling a very little more than usual, so that there was almost a space between each word, he issued his orders to the man Trampas: "When you call me that, SMILE." And he looked at Trampas across the table.
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@Loveschild: Have you never heard of queerbashing? @belovedlovett: Fuck the haters, you're awesome! @Oz Squad Alpha (#97): This is a cyberspace advice column, not a meatspace office, and you're not Dan's coworker. Grow a spine and get over your bad self, you whiny retarded piece of shit. Or just get in line behind biggie's better opinion in 107. ;-P
@ "Male DNA=Men's room" (#36):
That would be exactly as inappropriate as a lesbian diddling herself to the same thing in the same place, or a gay male jerking off to you peeing right next to you. And in case you can't do the math, the degree of inappropriateness here is "entirely." If you want to jerk off, use the internet at home. The workplace is, whadday fuckin' know, a place for work.
As for the rest of you, who ever said that casual non-commitment-related sex was "meaningless?" Maybe it's not your cup of tea, and that's fine. But keep in mind that there are plenty of people who find your silly matrimonial song and dance to be meaningless, too. And that's OK. People are different and value different things; the problem here, as I see it, is that NFW is asking a stranger (albeit an intelligent and experienced and witty one) what another individual is thinking, and wanting to generalize from there. I call bullshit. If NFW really wants to know what's going on in this chick's head, he ought to ask her - and he also ought to be OK with the prospect that even she might not know, or might not be willing to share. But at the end of the day, arbitrary social conventions are arbitrary. The important part is to find a way to play the games you like with a number of people you're comfortable with, and then everybody wins because the point is playing in the first place.
@ "Male DNA=Men's room" (#36):
That would be exactly as inappropriate as a lesbian diddling herself to the same thing in the same place, or a gay male jerking off to you peeing right next to you. And in case you can't do the math, the degree of inappropriateness here is "entirely." If you want to jerk off, use the internet at home. The workplace is, whadday fuckin' know, a place for work.
As for the rest of you, who ever said that casual non-commitment-related sex was "meaningless?" Maybe it's not your cup of tea, and that's fine. But keep in mind that there are plenty of people who find your silly matrimonial song and dance to be meaningless, too. And that's OK. People are different and value different things; the problem here, as I see it, is that NFW is asking a stranger (albeit an intelligent and experienced and witty one) what another individual is thinking, and wanting to generalize from there. I call bullshit. If NFW really wants to know what's going on in this chick's head, he ought to ask her - and he also ought to be OK with the prospect that even she might not know, or might not be willing to share. But at the end of the day, arbitrary social conventions are arbitrary. The important part is to find a way to play the games you like with a number of people you're comfortable with, and then everybody wins because the point is playing in the first place.
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NFW, take it from me: It's a bad idea to sleep with coworkers. Bad. Plus, maybe she unconsciously backed off once she realized that you have more than one source of STD's to share with her.
I can't tell from the letter whether he said to her what he said to Dan and us about "it's not about nailing everything that walks by," but maybe that's what she thought.
I can't tell from the letter whether he said to her what he said to Dan and us about "it's not about nailing everything that walks by," but maybe that's what she thought.
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BTW, without reading all the other comments, Dan, your advice to NOCLUE is some of the finest columnar advice I have ever read anywhere, any time, in my 51 years on this planet.
http://shutyoureverlovingpiehole.wordpre…
http://shutyoureverlovingpiehole.wordpre…
135
@11 Hate to burst the bubble, but my married boyfriend did divorce his wife to be with me. Like you, I didn't believe it (that never happens, right?) until he did. Go figure.
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