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Religious Reason

June 3, 2010

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I'm a straight male college student in a relationship, which had been going great. The only incongruity was that, for a religious reason, I don't want to have penetrative vaginal sex before marriage. I'm up for anything else—I would eat her out, piss on her, whatever else—but not vaginal sex. I made this clear at the beginning. My girlfriend started bringing up how she wanted to have "actual" sex. I told her, "I love you, and if you need to fuck other guys, go for it." To my relief, she was offended by the suggestion.

A week later, she confessed that she had slept with someone. I feel like I can't trust her now, and I can't bring myself to sleep in her bed anymore. I feel like a hypocrite, since I brought up the idea of her sleeping with someone else in the first place. But I was unprepared for the reality, since she berated me for making the proposal at all. Still, I told her to do this. She regrets the hookup. I don't know if I'm even asking for advice. I just wonder if I'm acting childishly.

Wishing Ancillary Fucking Felt Less Emotionally Ruinous

Your dilemma is interesting, WAFFLER, but you know what I'm more interested in? I'd really be interested in finding out which particular faith tradition frowns on penetrative vaginal intercourse before marriage but smiles on eating pussy and piss scenes and okays women having vaginal intercourse before marriage so long as they're having it with guys they don't intend to marry. That sounds like a church I'd like to visit. Hell, that sounds like a church I should be tithing to.

Look, WAFFLER, doing everything-but-sticking-your-dick-in for religious reasons is deeply silly. If you're going to be in a sexual relationship, be in a sexual relationship. I promise you that any God who frowns on fucking-pussy-before-marriage also frowns on piss-play-before-marriage and eating-pussy-before-marriage.

As for your dilemma, WAFFLER, either you need to find a girlfriend who wants what you want—or doesn't want what you don't want—or you need to stop playing bullshit games and start fucking the girl you've got.


To say that I have recently been bored at work is a gross understatement. I have turned it into an opportunity to read all the archived Savage Love columns I can find on the internet, which has led me to three questions:

1. Your advice has always been sassy and matter-of-fact, but it seems to me that your advice is becoming less acidic as time passes. How has your attitude toward the sex-advice business changed over the years?

2. Why don't women brag about their clit size?

3. Are you still into Ashton Kutcher or do you have a new fantasy flame?

Your Devoted Reader

1. I get a lot of mail from people telling me I've changed. Half write to tell me that I've become an insufferably bitchy sacky twatty cunt prick, and half tell me I've gone soft, I'm too nice, I've lost my edge, etc. Not sure what to make of that.

2. Clits aren't inserted into anything—not typically—so a big clit doesn't earn a woman any bragging rights. And a small clit, harder to locate and harder to stimulate, is nothing to brag about either. And while the clit—all of it, not just the exposed part—is central to a woman's sexual pleasure, it's not the showiest part of a woman's package. That would be the labia. And it's not the part a man is most interested in. That would be the vagina. So while the clit is hugely important to her, it's not necessarily all that important to him.

3. I still admire Ashton Kutcher's work ethic—the man is an acting, producing, tweeting machine—but my crush on Ashton evaporated halfway through the first episode of Punk'd. My current celebrity crush is Bill Hader as Stefon on SNL's "Weekend Update."


I have recently started dating a sexually adventurous man. He is the first person to successfully fist me, and it's fantastic. When I orgasm, I squirt. Lots. Afterward, the sheets are soaked and I'm in a puddle. We've put towels down, but the sheer volume of liquid soaks through them. Without towels, it soaks all the way through to the mattress. I'm not super-pleased about ruining my mattress, and the postcoital sleeping on very wet sheets is not ideal.

I don't really want to sleep on a plastic-wrapped mattress and change my sheets every time we have sex. Does anything exist that's super-absorbent that I could put down during sex, or even something that might go under the sheets to at least protect the bed?

Wasting Endless Towels

The bed is a nice place to sleep, a good place to read, and an obvious place to fuck. But you can have sex elsewhere, WET, and you can acquire just-for-fucking furniture/furnishings without going to hell with the vaginal-before-marriage crowd. Go to a sporting-goods store and pick up a large, folding wrestling mat. Store it under the bed, WET, and when your sexy time involves fisting—and hopefully you're not fisting every time you have sex—GET OUT OF BED, pull the mat out, throw some towels down, and fist and squirt to your heart's content. Then when it is all over—all over the towels, the mat, the floor—you'll be able to crawl back into your warm, dry, comfortable bed.


HEY, EVERYBODY: Jason Robinson is—was—the football coach at Mandarin High School in Duval County, Florida. He was fired last month for sending "adult-oriented pictures" to a student. Robinson didn't send the pictures to one of his students, but to a 20-year-old college student who is his girlfriend. The mother of Robinson's girlfriend found the pictures on her daughter's phone and forwarded them to the principal of the school where Robinson worked and scores of other people.

"We hold our teachers to a higher standard," principal Donna Richardson told reporters. "They're in front of our students. They're talking with our students. They're teaching our students how to become good characters."

This is sex-negative bullshit. Robinson is a consenting adult; Robinson's girlfriend is a consenting adult. And what consenting adults do on their own time—and with their own cell phones—is no one's business but their own.

Savage Love readers stuck up for Constance McMillen after she was victimized by the homophobic morons who run her high school. Now we need to stick up for a straight high-school coach being victimized by the sexphobic morons who run his. Send an e-mail to Donna Richardson at richardsod@duvalschools.org. Let Richardson know that she is in the wrong. And let others know to let her know.


AND: Apparently, Steve Jobs isn't such a prude after all. The Savage Love iPhone app is now available on the iTunes store.


mail@savagelove.net

 

Comments (216) RSS

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1
I hope that doesn't mean the death of independent newspapers! We all pick em up cuz Sr. Savage is in them. On the other hand, I can now ride the bus without trying to hide the escort ads while reading Savage Love.

Waffle indeed.
Posted by Emalie on June 1, 2010 at 6:38 PM · Report this
2
I'm kind of surprised you didn't mention the Liberator Fascinator sheets re: the squirting. I have not used them myself, but I've heard great things about them. Apparently they're comfortable, and still provide a complete water (or other liquid) barrier.
Posted by formosus on June 1, 2010 at 6:38 PM · Report this
3
P.S. Clits are important to guys, well the egalitarian fun guys I like, it's the viz. they don't worry about (too busy thinkin bout their own packages. Zing!)
Posted by Emalie on June 1, 2010 at 6:39 PM · Report this
4
WET: How about a tarp? :P
Posted by superduperficial on June 1, 2010 at 7:01 PM · Report this
5
Waffler is just a fucked up prick. What a tool. I take pleasure in the fact that she stepped out and now he's messed up about it. Oh, yeah. I sent my email to Ms. Richardson. She'll probably never see it but it felt good sending it.
Posted by denverguy on June 1, 2010 at 7:10 PM · Report this
6
Similarly baffled by the "religious reason" cited in the first letter. Perhaps the writer feels he needs to practice some token abstinence as a sacrificial gesture to his God and has decided, arbitrarily, that vaginal sex before marriage will be the thing. Sort of like giving up chocolate for Lent.
Posted by A in NC on June 1, 2010 at 7:21 PM · Report this
7
He was fired for sending "adult" pictures to his 20 year old girlfriend? And, what the fuck was the mother doing snooping around a 20 year old's phone anyway?

Remind me to avoid Duval County whilst traveling through Florida...
Posted by rocketman2u on June 1, 2010 at 7:25 PM · Report this
8
Someone needs to send the Shamwow guy over to WET's house ... You'll say 'wow' every time...

Actually, there are plenty of products out there that would protect your mattress. "Protect-A-Bed" has a waterproof cotton mattress pad that is billed as NOT having that plastic-sheet-crinkle to it.
Otherwise, like Dan said: get out of bed.
Posted by you on June 1, 2010 at 7:31 PM · Report this
9
@7 That could so easily be my mother (I'm 23). There's a reason why I wipe my browsing history, put all naked pics/porn on an external hard drive, and purge my phone whenever I see my parents. Even if they never get near my laptop or my phone, I'm not going to risk it.

Though, to her credit, my mom would just yell and cry at me, and leave my boyfriend alone. Though she would try to make me break-up with him and hate him forever.
Posted by Alexa on June 1, 2010 at 8:05 PM · Report this
10
To WET: We have the perfect solution! Two years ago my boyfriend got me a hilarious gift that quickly turned into our most used sex prop: Absorbent reusable pee pads! http://www.amazon.com/UltraSoft-4-Ply-Qu…

Trust me, they work. They can take SO much of my squirting and even period sex and clean right up and never stain. We just throw one of these pads down wherever we are and it saves our bed and other furniture from getting soaked. We even travel with ours sometimes so we can have easy to clean sex anywhere we go without leaving behind dirty sheets for hosts to wash. I can't say enough good things about these pads. We have 2 and you can even dry it out in between uses and use it a few times before washing if you want.
Posted by K5 on June 1, 2010 at 8:11 PM · Report this
11
Um, about the I-love-you-please-wash-your-vag podcast: did anyone mention it could be what she was eating? I mean, a guy's diet can make cum taste "stronger" and Dan's edumacated us about womens' plumbing being analogous to mens', so it seems obvious to me.
Posted by Sorcha on June 1, 2010 at 8:13 PM · Report this
12
Ok, about the coach, I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate here. Will I get flamed? Maybe...

Everyone who works knows that what your employer could catch heat from their clients or community about, is a no-no. This is why facebook profiles are private. Sexting is apparently a huge problem with high school kids. Why? Beause it ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS blows up. Someone freakin' ALWAYS sends the photos around. It's A+B=C, here. Anybody out there work with young students? You know how hard it is to talk sense to them with all the leotarded crap their so-called role models in the media make look so freaking attractive? We don't need the coach doing this kind of stupid stuff, and doing it without enough discretion not to get caught. {For example, if the girl still lives with Mom, and has her college paid for by Mom, she may be technically an adult, but not for all practical purposes.} I imagine lots of people would get fired for something like this. Hell, if I were the administration, I'd get rid of this guy just to avoid the snickers in the hall.

Dan's just mad because he sees it as trampling sexual freedom. Take the sex out of it, and let's say the guy got caught with his 20-year-old girlfriend at the street races. Let's say they got caught trying to buy dope. Or ended up in a raid at a scuzzy swingers club. I'd say the same, damn thing. Those are risky things to do- hell, the risk is part of the attraction, for crying out loud- and the freedom to do them comes with the responsibility to take the heat if your silly enough to get caught. So I say suck it up and hit the road, coach.

Posted by AllisonM on June 1, 2010 at 8:17 PM · Report this
13
, about the coach, I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate here. Will I get flamed? Maybe...

Everyone who works knows that what your employer could catch heat from their clients or community about, is a no-no. This is why facebook profiles are private. Sexting is apparently a huge problem with high school kids. Why? Beause it ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS blows up. Someone freakin' ALWAYS sends the photos around. It's A+B=C, here. Anybody out there work with young students? You know how hard it is to talk sense to them with all the leotarded crap their so-called role models in the media make look so freaking attractive? We don't need the coach doing this kind of stupid stuff, and doing it without enough discretion not to get caught. {For example, if the girl still lives with Mom, and has her college paid for by Mom, she may be technically an adult, but not for all practical purposes.} I imagine lots of people would get fired for something like this. Hell, if I were the administration, I'd get rid of this guy just to avoid the snickers in the hall.

Dan's just mad because he sees it as trampling sexual freedom. Take the sex out of it, and let's say the guy got caught with his 20-year-old girlfriend at the street races. Let's say they got caught trying to buy dope. Or ended up in a raid at a scuzzy swingers club. I'd say the same, damn thing. Those are risky things to do- hell, the risk is part of the attraction, for crying out loud- and the freedom to do them comes with the responsibility to take the heat if your silly enough to get caught. So I say suck it up and hit the road, coach.
Posted by AllisonM on June 1, 2010 at 8:19 PM · Report this
14
I registered, dangit, show my comments!

Ok, about the coach, I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate here. Will I get flamed? Maybe...

Everyone who works knows that what your employer could catch heat from their clients or community about, is a no-no. This is why facebook profiles are private. Sexting is apparently a huge problem with high school kids. Why? Beause it ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS blows up. Someone freakin' ALWAYS sends the photos around. It's A+B=C, here. Anybody out there work with young students? You know how hard it is to talk sense to them with all the leotarded crap their so-called role models in the media make look so freaking attractive? We don't need the coach doing this kind of stupid stuff, and doing it without enough discretion not to get caught. {For example, if the girl still lives with Mom, and has her college paid for by Mom, she may be technically an adult, but not for all practical purposes.} I imagine lots of people would get fired for something like this. Hell, if I were the administration, I'd get rid of this guy just to avoid the snickers in the hall.

Dan's just mad because he sees it as trampling sexual freedom. Take the sex out of it, and let's say the guy got caught with his 20-year-old girlfriend at the street races. Let's say they got caught trying to buy dope. Or ended up in a raid at a scuzzy swingers club. I'd say the same, damn thing. Those are risky things to do- hell, the risk is part of the attraction, for crying out loud- and the freedom to do them comes with the responsibility to take the heat if your silly enough to get caught. So I say suck it up and hit the road, coach.
Posted by AllisonM on June 1, 2010 at 8:23 PM · Report this
15
WET needs to look into Chux (disposable underpads). Expensive, though, depending on how often they need 'em.
Posted by 2190 on June 1, 2010 at 8:25 PM · Report this
16
@10 Pee pads are an interesting idea (though drying them out without washing between uses? Ewwww).

A very simple, cheap solution is your everyday bath-mat. Specifically one with a rubber backing, the plusher the better. It's absorbent, soft, blocks liquid from leaking through, and easily explained as home decor by the side of the bed.
Posted by Karla http://underthewagon.com on June 1, 2010 at 8:36 PM · Report this
17
KS, Re #10:

Bless you bless you bless you! I am ordering mine right now!!! A MUCH better answer than Dan's BTW.
Posted by MaiaD on June 1, 2010 at 8:49 PM · Report this
18
I call baloney on AllisonM. There was no 'power' relationship between the coach and his of-age girlfriend. Their privacy was violated by her psychotic mother. Consenting adults can and do swap naughty photos and this should not constitute a firing offense.
So I say AllisonM should suck it up and hit the road, along with the other McCarthy-ite, witch-hunting, anti-sex, anti-pleasure, bullshit control freaks.
The sound you hear as you exit is snickering.
Posted by Functional Atheist on June 1, 2010 at 8:54 PM · Report this
19
One does never stops getting appalled witnessing to what extent religious dogma can twist peopleĀ“s minds... up to the point of seeing one of the most "immoral" courses of action in their scale, as a solution to their dilemmas. Hopefully WAFFLER will make love to his girlfriend, and hopefully he will not feel guilty for that...
Posted by Varina on June 1, 2010 at 9:03 PM · Report this
20
in most countries, ie not the United States, sending "adult" pictures to his 20 year old girlfriend would not be an issue ventilated at work.
Posted by barfuss on June 1, 2010 at 9:19 PM · Report this
21
You had me at Stefon, Dan. LOVE HIM.
Posted by dakoneko on June 1, 2010 at 9:24 PM · Report this
Canuck 22
Anyone as irrational as Waffler doesn't sound like stable boyfriend material in the first place. As far as men go, I can tell you, they only get more uptight as they get older (my experience, anyway) so starting with, say, Jack Johnson would be how I would go if I were young.

Dan, you had a baby, surely you had one of those changing pad mats? In the hospital when you have a baby, they have something similar, but a bit bigger, a nice flannel pad with a waterproof backing, easy to wash, available at those "medical" type pharmacies, it would work well for WET.

Bill Hader, really? I thought the celebrity crush was always supposed to be cuter than the real significant other? Isn't that why it's a fantasy?
Posted by Canuck on June 1, 2010 at 9:40 PM · Report this
JulietEcho 23
Solid advice, as usual. @10 - I had no idea such a thing as "pee pads" existed, but they sound kind of awesome even just for regular (wet, sweaty) sex.

The coach situation is beyond ridiculous. I almost wonder if the ACLU would be interested in the case - I mean, the school (presumably a public school?) fired him for something completely within his rights as a private adult human being, and he did nothing irresponsible that would have resulted in those pictures being made public anyway. If anyone should be penalized in this case, it's the weirdo mom who thought it would be okay to circulate naught pictures without consent.

Anyway, I consider "consensual, adult-only, naughty-picture-taking" to be a civil liberty, and it's idiotic that it's apparently considered grounds for firing in some areas.
Posted by JulietEcho on June 1, 2010 at 9:42 PM · Report this
24
I second the liberator fascinator throes. My wife and I wound up in an unfortunate moving situation.... 2 babies in a 2 br apartment for 9 months waiting for our house to close. We had one kid permanently in our bedroom and could only get it on when they were both napping.

We found the liberator to be great, best toy we ever bought, as we could throw down on the couch, the floor, the bed, the car in the garage, whenever the kids both managed to pass out.

Now that we've moved, we use it all the time just because it's completely eliminated the argument over who's sleeping in the wet spot! And we don't have to change the sheets after sex, which, with two babies, is a big deal... since you practically don't have time to have sex, you certainly don't have the time to change the sheets! The throw can go right in the wash without a sheet changing pain in the butt.
Posted by grabbinitwhereucan on June 1, 2010 at 9:43 PM · Report this
25
Regarding the squirting and the soaked bed. I have found hospital bed underpads which I get cheap marketed as whelping pads to be great. They was up nice, and hold a TON of liquid, and are sheet like on the top.
Posted by TL2 on June 1, 2010 at 9:43 PM · Report this
26
clits ARE SO important to guys (and girls too I am certain). Almost nothing turns me on more than a big, hard, clit - bigger the better.
Posted by bagel on June 1, 2010 at 10:12 PM · Report this
27
WAFFLER has made a mistake (by saying "go ahead and have sex with some other guy") and is paying for it. However, his girlfriend will pay and pay and pay: she "regrets" the fling with the other guy, she still doesn't get to have actual sex with the guy she loves, and now -- for "religious reasons" -- she'll probably be made to feel guilty and inferior for the rest of her life if she stays with him. Ugh. And it's often true: men can get more and more conservative as they get older (that's been my experience), and by the time this guy is 40 (and still not married) he'll be furious that whoever he's dating has had ANY kind of a sexual past.
Posted by Sarah in Olympia on June 1, 2010 at 10:27 PM · Report this
28
I'd like to suggest the squirter just use a bathmat--super absorbent, rubber lined on the bottom, machine-washable, can be used on the bed, easier than a wrestling mat to store. I know she doesn't want to change the sheets, but if they've already tried emptying the towel cupboard to control the chaos, I'll assume she's not opposed to some extra laundry.
Posted by Belle on June 1, 2010 at 10:42 PM · Report this
29
Ah, to WET:

I've had a similar problem, except that there's that much squirting every single time I have sex (well, assuming it's good sex, anyway). I made the decision long ago that my bed is for sleeping. I have 2 yoga mats that I can roll out if need be -- but for the most part, it's more fun when you aren't confined to your bed, anyway. It forces the guy to get more creative. You learn new ways of being flexible on various pieces of furniture. And the best part? Amazing sex plus a dry bed!
Posted by terrierchica http://terrierchica.blogspot.com on June 1, 2010 at 11:06 PM · Report this
30
Actually, there *are* things to put down for children that wet the bed, people who spill their drinks commonly, and those who squirt in mass quantity. Go to a store where you buy mattresses, and ask about a waterproof cover. I have one that goes between the sheets and the mattress that protects the top of the bed due to a cat that thought my bed was her litter box. They're well worth the cost [$20-30 max], and will be much more pleasant than a wrestling mat or plastic sheeting... Although, you may still want to place down some absorbent material.
Posted by IronicallyEtsy on June 1, 2010 at 11:07 PM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 31
But god SPECIFICALLY said "Thou shalt not have penetrative vaginal sex until thou art married!"

It's in the bible! I know I read it... I can't remember where though. Uh... I think it's somewhere in the back...
Posted by Urgutha Forka on June 1, 2010 at 11:16 PM · Report this
32
Bill Hader as Stefon is AMAZING. Sunburned drifters with soap sud beards? You know that thing when a hobo becomes a rich man and takes the big BUBBLE BATH ...
Posted by Amanda on June 2, 2010 at 12:09 AM · Report this
33
I am a little disappointed on your advice today to WAFFLER! Sure, it's godawful stupid to not have vaginal sex for religious reasons when you're okay with every other kind of sex. Unless your religion is against vaginas or something. And I'm sure any religious expert would say that WAFFLER is missing the point completely.

But the fact is, he told her upfront that he wasn't going to stick it in her. She went into this relationship knowing his limits. Would this be different if he had a disability that made it difficult and painful to stick it in her, or if he was very kinky and super uncomfortable with vanilla sex of any kind? I don't think you should need a "valid" reason to not engage in a sex act with somebody-- once you start saying what's not a good enough reason not to do something, that opens up a whole can of worms for consent issues.

That said, he totally dropped the ball on opening up his relationship. If he didn't want her fucking anybody else, he shouldn't have changed the rules to make that okay. If having premarital vaginal sex is a dealbreaker issue for her, then she can leave. But he shouldn't have said "go ahead and fuck other people" just to keep her from leaving, when her fucking other people is a dealbreaker issue for HIM.
Posted by After All on June 2, 2010 at 12:50 AM · Report this
34
I think that you blew it with your response to Waffler. The guy is dealing with his sexual orientation. He is willing to do a lot of things except stick his penis in the lady! You got it right in your comments about his created personal religion of one? I am old fashion and intercourse seems to be the most natural sexual activity of a man and woman. Maybe I am too old fashioned but I am more than willing to avoid some of the other stuff that he is willing to do. I would consider the alternate activities to be degrading. Is he willing to do the other stuff as punishment?

Both the lady and Waffler need to take a clear look at this situation. For her, or any woman, it will be marriage to a guy who is not really into sex with a woman. If he goes through with the marriage he will be miserable and may likely never consumated the marriage.

He should be honest with himself and, most of all, decent enough to not put his desire to be transformed into a heterosexual above the well being of the woman who unknowningly becomes his wife. The misery will affect all in the family. The parents must be happy to create a happy home for their children. The sham will result in a lot of seemily unconnected problems and conficts.

I am surprised that you did not realize that Waffler is hiding his sexual orientation behind religion. Has he given any thought about what is expected of him on the wedding night? Maybe he'll get a wedding day headache that will last as long as the marriage - which, for the sake of the lady and him, should last only a few days if not hours.

Maybe I am a weak guy but I would find it hard to sleep with a lady and not go all the way. If I were religious enough to not go all the way I would be more than religious enough to feel that sleeping together is wrong.
More...
Posted by Good advice from Everett on June 2, 2010 at 1:54 AM · Report this
35
The hospital pads are called "chucks" (or sometimes "chux") and are available in various sizes up to 2x3'.
Posted by gsm18439 on June 2, 2010 at 3:55 AM · Report this
36
The hospital pads are called "chucks" (or "chux") and are available in various sizes up to 2x3'.
Posted by gsm18439 on June 2, 2010 at 3:58 AM · Report this
37
Just out of curiosity, do we have any way of knowing for certain what WET's gender is?
Posted by wayne on June 2, 2010 at 5:49 AM · Report this
38
Washable bed pads are great for use at home but can be a pain when you travel. For that, I suggest the disposable pads. They're not quite as comfortable as the quilted cotton-backed ones, but they're not bad, plus they're lightweight and cheap. Just make sure you get the large pads (the ones that can be tucked under the mattress) because their plastic backing gives them a tendency to slip around.
Posted by MTS on June 2, 2010 at 6:02 AM · Report this
39
Try one of those backpacking towels, and get a really really large one. They are REALLY REALLY absorbent, and I think a lot less abrasive than some of those really really absorbent materials for spills. And if one doesn't work, then try two large backpacking towels. I can't see much of anything getting through those. REI should have them.
Posted by former tri-state on June 2, 2010 at 6:14 AM · Report this
40

Answer the damn question, Dan.

Your Devoted Reader asked how your attitude toward the sex-advice business has changed over the years. Not how your readers perceive that change.

If you're going to print questions that call for an act of sincere introspection on your part, have the courage to comply.

You are not your readers.

Which is why we love you. Get busy, bitch.
Posted by Yojimbo on June 2, 2010 at 6:28 AM · Report this
41
Another potential solution for the squirter: dog training pads. Seriously - they worked for a friend.
Posted by K2010 on June 2, 2010 at 6:42 AM · Report this
42
Wayne at @37:

'Squirting' is a very common term for female ejaculation. It's pretty clear WET is a woman.
Posted by Gina CP on June 2, 2010 at 6:46 AM · Report this
43
@ 37 - do men squirt when they're fisted? Not trying to be a jerk with that question - do they? If so . . . I'm thinking just a pee mat won't help!
Posted by Darrell Hempel on June 2, 2010 at 6:48 AM · Report this
44
Hooray for time traveling posts sent to us from the future!
Posted by krista1203 on June 2, 2010 at 6:58 AM · Report this
45
It won't help with the wet sheets but to protect the bed there are some really good waterproof mattress pads. I've got one on my bed (ex was a major squirter) and I can't tell the difference when lying on the waterproof pad vs the non-waterproof. In fact, she could even keep it next to the bed then toss it down on top of the sheets to keep them dry too. It would only take a second to spread it and another second to roll it up and toss it off.
Posted by Root on June 2, 2010 at 7:06 AM · Report this
46
Waffler - Seriously? Just... seriously? SERIOUSLY?

This has got to be the most offshoot of saddlebacking I've ever seen. And this guy reads Dan Savage?
Posted by DrReality on June 2, 2010 at 7:09 AM · Report this
47
I don't get the hostility toward WAFFLER'S line-drawing religion. It looks to me that the "go ahead and do it with somebody else" was NOT a dogmatically-approved exception, but rather either a test, or a declaration that he's not holding her to HIS doctrinal beliefs.

As for lines, oral and water sports don't make babies, so it's a very pragmatic line to draw. Actually, it's not too far off the Jewish position, ignoring all the squicky-ness about monthly cycles and foreskins.
Posted by NavinJhonson on June 2, 2010 at 7:09 AM · Report this
echizen_kurage 48
Was anybody else struck by the brilliant coincidence of the coach's name? Here's to you, Mr. Robinson . . .
Posted by echizen_kurage on June 2, 2010 at 7:35 AM · Report this
49
"(I'm 23)....Though, to her credit, my mom would just yell and cry at me, and leave my boyfriend alone. Though she would try to make me break-up with him and hate him forever."

23?! Jesus, do you guys want to be kids forever or something? If my parents had done that when I was 23, I would have icily told them no one---no. one.---has that right.

Tell your mom to STFU or you will leave for a looooong time next time she dares open her yob after violating your privacy. Your mom needs help understanding boundaries. She helped you learn such things when you were 6. Return the favor now that you are 23.

Oh, and Allison, that shit you cite (drugs, racing, clubs that can be raided by polic) is all ILLEGAL and PUBLIC ACTIVITIES. Adults sharing naughty pics which are then stolen by a third party (the mom)? NOT ILLEGAL and PRIVATE. Big fucking difference between illegal public activities and legal private ones. If you don't understand that, well, you are a dumbfuck.

The victim here is the fired party, whose privacy was violated and his junk shared with people he did not intend.

I hope the mom is prosecuted and sued, sued, sued for her cuntishness. And then sued again.
Posted by Allison is an idiot, even by this board's standards on June 2, 2010 at 7:40 AM · Report this
50
Whats with the close-minded attitude towards religious sexual taboos? Every religion has all kinds of taboos, and not JUST religions. Cultures have taboos. Its complicated and ultimately personal. He didn't say anything about morality, he's trying very hard not to force his lifestyle on his girl, and he apparently reads and trusts Savage Love so he can't be too much of a close-minded asshole. Although, you are all looking like close-minded assholes at the moment. I see mentions of the bible and hell here - whatever made you think he is a Christian (or Jew)? Wake up and smell the hypocrisy.
Posted by little_kitten on June 2, 2010 at 7:56 AM · Report this
51
@49, you got to it before I could. Allison is totally missing the point when she cites illegal behavior as her comparison. Also, if the school wants to fire him because of this, shouldn't they be checking out ALL their teachers' sex lives? I'm sure there's plenty that's more hardcore and "immoral" than a few naked pictures.

And @40, Dan DID answer the question. He stated that he'd gotten a lot more sympathetic towards straight guys, but that otherwise his positions hadn't changed.
Posted by chicago girl on June 2, 2010 at 8:02 AM · Report this
52
My advice to Waffle:
lemme splain you something that helped me. As all catholics know, as long as no one is pregnant, no one has been having penetrative sex. Even if someone is pregnant, there are shotgun weddings and 'early babies' to remedy that. Think about how many 'early babies' there were in your parents generation.

Does anyone look at those members of the family as terrible sinners who are going to hell? No? Your church obviously doesn't care that much, really. Then start fucking your girlfriend and start worrying about the things that will REALLY send you to Hell, like buying shoes made in sweatshops and working for companies that have abuse human rights overseas.
Posted by Caralain on June 2, 2010 at 8:07 AM · Report this
53
If waffler doesn't want to have vaginal sex then fine, whatever- but for him to play games with his sexually frustrated girlfriend is stupid. He shouldn't have told her to have sex with other guys if that isn't what he really wanted.

All I have to say about firing a teacher for his private, normal, personal sex life with his ADULT girlfriend is this: Fire the honest, normal, guy for being sexual with his CONSENTING TWENTY YEAR OLD ADULT GIRLFRIEND and then karma will give you the 45 year old, bible thumping, crazy-insane pedophile as his replacement. Let people have their private, consensual sex lives and leave them alone about their porn.
Posted by A little porn never hurt anyone on June 2, 2010 at 8:18 AM · Report this
54
http://www.amazon.com/Carters-Keep-Water…

Flannel on both sides with a waterproof rubber layer in between, supposedly to catch any diaper problems in the night (that's why it's standard crib sized) but I know way more couples who use them than parents, if you know what I'm saying. Comfy without being crackly or sticking to bare skin like a plain rubber sheet would.
Posted by charlie on June 2, 2010 at 8:24 AM · Report this
55
Swingers clubs aren't illegal, but they can be raided...granted this story is from Texas, but it was in a neighborhood and the neighbors were pissed, so the city kept throwing the code book at the place trying to shut it down. Apparently, they did raid, and took photos of all the patrons. Now, suppose those photos got 'leaked' onto the internet, or something. And suppose that one of the patrons is, oh, say the principal of your child's school. Now, you're a very open-minded Dan Savage reader, but how do you suppose the other parents would feel about that guy's employement? Do you suppose the school would find themselves in the midst of a giant shitstorm? Should they fire the guy, or are they required to fight out this guy's right to personal procilivities he should have kept private?

http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2008/jul…

Yeah, my other examples were illegal, but so sometimes is sexting- don't you read the news? They bust the kid who took the picture for distributing child porn, bust the kids who received it for owning child porn, then stick them all on the sex offender registry. Now, the coach and his girl are of age, so child porn isn't an issue, but sexting is a problem for the kids, and the coach is a role model. Yeah, he should be allowed to do it, it isn't illegal, but just like with the swinger's club, the world is not this board, and the school has to deal with reality, in terms of community and parent reactions. Obviously consenting adults should be able to do whatever they consent to do, but they, too have to work with the real world, and in the real world, nude pictures, videos and texts often make their way to people you didn't intend.
More...
Posted by AllisonM on June 2, 2010 at 8:45 AM · Report this
56
WET - pick up one of those hospital diaper sheet things. Or use latex sheeting under your towels. Personally I use latex sheeting (because my man has a latex fetish) and we've never had problems. They even come in all sorts of pretty colors!

www.sheetlatex.com :)
Posted by Marika.K on June 2, 2010 at 8:46 AM · Report this
57
two things:

I could easily be wrong, but Waffle sounds like an Orthodox Jew to me. It's a different relationship with the almighty - observing the Law is something you do because God said to, not because it's moral or because you'll get punished for not doing it. There's no moral value to not carrying things on Saturday or not eating shellfish or whatever. You do it for its own sake. I'm not saying my people are less crazy than Christians, but we're crazy in a different way.

I am sure many will chime in after me, but let me explain why Melanie is Wrong on the Internet: consensual sexting might be risky, but it's not immoral or illegal. Take the sex out of it, as Melanie suggests, and imagine that the coach got pulled over for speeding, which is much more dangerous and IS illegal, and which is probably a much more prevalent and deadly problem amongst high school kids than sexting. Should he be fired? Of course not, jesus.

Okay, now put the sex back i to it, but more of it. One imagines that Coach was also fucking his girlfriend. This is also legal and probably less dangerous than speeding, and also a behaviour many people would like to discourage amongst teenagers, more so even than sexting. Should he be fired? Of course not, jesus. I'm sorry, but they are adults. Adults do things every day that kids cannot or should not do. Would you fire a kindergarten teacher for crossing the street without holding hands while she's out grocery shopping?

This is more than a sex-positive issue, it is a privacy issue.
Posted by si on June 2, 2010 at 9:07 AM · Report this
58
WAFFLER: I've been there, thinking I'd be ok if my girl fucked around, and not being able to face the emotional consequences when it happened unannounced...
If my experience means anything, you need to DTMFA because nothing you (or she) can do will make up for the loss of trust.
Posted by LodeRunner on June 2, 2010 at 9:14 AM · Report this
59
OK, this has nothing to do with the questions and Mr. Savage's advice - I love reading you, by the way, greetings from Belgium - but can somebody explain to me how the heck this column is shown as being posted on the 3rd of June while today's still the 2nd?

You living in another space continuum, Dan? Or did you steal Doc's DeLorean?

Anyway, thank you for all those advices. They are priceless.
Posted by LizzieMcFly on June 2, 2010 at 9:36 AM · Report this
60
Well, I thought WET might be a man; "squirt" could be a crude euphemism for ejaculate, but you're probably right; it's probably a woman. I guess.
Posted by wayne on June 2, 2010 at 9:46 AM · Report this
61
Hey si, you're absolutely right, I was thinking that as I typed it, but I was hoping it would fly. Yeah, speeding, jaywalking, public intox, all worse than sexting, and people can't be held to work standards all day every day, we'd have to fire everybody.

Like I initially said, I'm being the Devil's advocate here. I hate the invasion of his privacy. I see the anti-sex judgment call that's being made. But this lady sent the photos to the 'principal and scores of other people'. That's a public relations nightmare for the school. I'm going out on a limb and saying that poor Donna The School Principal is probably already up to her tits in outraged emails, not to mention calls, letters, editorials and possibly reporters. She's fired this guy, and probably didn't want to, but in this situation, it's like grabbing a life preserver when you're drowning. Now Dan wants to bury her in mail from his readers protesting the firing??!! That's just sorry.
Posted by AllisonM on June 2, 2010 at 10:14 AM · Report this
62
Allison, we don't know if she wanted to fire the guy or not. All we know is that she's punishing him after his privacy rights were violated because it's easier for her. You think it's not nice to hassle the poor woman for doing the wrong thing because it's less of a headache? What about ruining this poor guy's career? You think this guy is going to have an easy time getting a job after this? Sure, her position is a difficult one, but people who support the teacher ought to write in (polite, short letters) and show their support.
Posted by chicago girl on June 2, 2010 at 10:49 AM · Report this
63
Yeah, chicago girl, but when Dan leads off his call for letters by calling the school administration 'sexophobic morons' I think that the bulk of the letters won't be polite. And really, I maintain that the situation is not Donna's problem. She's not paid to manage her employees' careers, she's paid to manage the school. Firing him is the pragmatic removal of a major organizational problem. Problem solved- that's what Donna's paid for. She's not ruining his career, either- girlfriend's crazy Mom did that.
Posted by AllisonM on June 2, 2010 at 11:15 AM · Report this
64
waffler is a twisted fuck. I'm pretty sure I was the one who fucked his girlfriend.
Posted by bobrockets on June 2, 2010 at 11:16 AM · Report this
65
I know Christians like WAFFLER and they annoy me tremendously. Mostly because they act superior because they are still 'pure' before marriage. Unlike WAFFLER they're very concerned to keep their hymen, though.
Posted by Tetsuo on June 2, 2010 at 11:36 AM · Report this
Scrufff 66
Re: Waffler, I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet...

I think sometimes closet case homos use religion as a lame ass excuse for not fucking their girlfriends before marriage - a classic delay tactic. Waffler may well be a gay and just doesn't/can't fuck his girlfriend because he just can't get it up for a female.
Posted by Scrufff on June 2, 2010 at 11:45 AM · Report this
67
@55 "but how do you suppose the other parents would feel about that guy's employment?"

Who gives a rats ass? What if the parents were outraged b/c it was a gay relationship? Surely you don't support firing gay teachers b/c of the "public relations nightmare" that might ensue if the bigoted asshats found out about it. What if was an interracial relationship? Should she cave and fire the guy then? What if the girlfriend's mom had been lurking out in the bushes and took photos of them having sex without a condom and sent them to the principle? Teens having unprotected sex is HUGE problem so we better fire this guy b/c he's a role model and all.

@61 "Now Dan wants to bury her in mail from his readers protesting the firing??!! That's just sorry."

No it's not. If she (the principle) had done the right thing (told the outraged parents to shut the fuck up) then she'd only have to deal with half the mail. And no, this isn't like grabbing a life preserver when you're drowning. If what you posit is true, that she really didn't want to fire him, then it was a cowardly, chicken-shit, completely self serving thing to do and deserves every bit of criticism that she gets.
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 2, 2010 at 11:48 AM · Report this
68
[I decided to sign up]

I think that you blew it with your response to Waffler. The guy is dealing with his sexual orientation. He is willing to do a lot of things except stick his penis in the lady! You got it right in your comments about his created personal religion of one? I am old fashion and intercourse seems to be the most natural sexual activity of a man and woman. Maybe I am too old fashioned but I am more than willing to avoid some of the other stuff that he is willing to do. I would consider the alternate activities to be degrading. Is he willing to do the other stuff as punishment?

Both the lady and Waffler need to face what is going on and what will happen if they get married. For her, or any woman, it will be marriage to a guy who is not really into sex with a woman. If he goes through with the marriage he will be miserable and may even never consumated the marriage. If he does it will likely not be of a very loving full relationship.

He should be honest with himself and, most of all, decent enough to not put his desire to be transformed into a heterosexual above the well being of the woman who will unknowningly become his wife. The misery will affect all in the family, especially the children. Parents must be happy with each other and themselves to create a happy home for their children. The sham will result in a lot of seemily unconnected problems and conficts.

I am surprised that you did not realize that Waffler is very likely hiding his sexual orientation behind religion. Has he given any thought about what is expected of him on the wedding night? Maybe he'll get a wedding day headache that will last as long as the marriage - which, for the sake of the lady and him, should last only a few days if not hours.

Maybe I am a weak guy but I would find it hard to sleep with a lady and not go all the way. If I were religious enough to not go all the way I would be more than religious enough to feel that sleeping together is wrong. Even living together would be out of the question.
More...
Posted by My 2 Cents worth on June 2, 2010 at 11:57 AM · Report this
tsel 69
A yoga mat might help dear WET out, or they could just throw a shower curtain on the bed before they get down there.

Also, there are a lot of mattress wrappers made for allergy sufferers that use plastic on one side (towards the mattress) and a soft fiber on the outside. (You don't really want to know what's living in that mattress). It's 2010, and the full plastic bedcover is out.
Posted by tsel http://tsel.deviantart.com on June 2, 2010 at 12:07 PM · Report this
tsel 70
A yoga mat might help dear WET out, or they could just throw a shower curtain on the bed before they get down there.

Also, there are a lot of mattress wrappers made for allergy sufferers that use plastic on one side (towards the mattress) and a soft fiber on the outside. (You don't really want to know what's living in that mattress). It's 2010, and the full plastic bedcover is out.
Posted by tsel http://tsel.deviantart.com on June 2, 2010 at 12:09 PM · Report this
anh 71
I say Dan tracks down the email address of the mother who invaded her daughter's privacy and blast her. It doesn't matter whether or not mommy pays for college. She has no right to snoop through her daughter's phone. She lost that right as soon as daughter dearest turned 18. If my mom would have done something like that I would have found my own way to pay for college and told her exactly where to go. I thank my mother, though, for not being an overbearing control-freak and for respecting my privacy throughout my entire life.
Posted by anh on June 2, 2010 at 12:26 PM · Report this
72
For WET - two suggestions - one more green than the other...

first the re-usable option
check out the Throe by Liberator - it's a sassy throw for your bed that's furry on one side, silky on the other and lined in the middle with "moisture barrier" and it's machine washable/reusable. i've got friends who squirt a lot who swear by these things - they're about $90 and you can find them online or maybe at your local sex positive store. note - i don't have one of my own, but i should fix that.

and the disposable option
try puppy pads - you can get them at most pet supply stores - they're disposable and designed to absorb a fair amount of liquid. i just looked and you can get 300 for $39 bucks online. the only drawback to puppy pads is that when they get wet if you keep rolling around on them they can get pilly and stick to a girl. but they're cheap. and way cheaper than a new mattress.

a wrestling mat may work, but i'm concerned the liquid will just roll off or get all over both of you. could be fun, but may not reduce the clean up factor...
Posted by jacqjones on June 2, 2010 at 12:33 PM · Report this
73
AllisonM,

You're a coward. YES, the school is absolutely supposed to respect its employees civil rights, regardless of the community's outrage. Our civil rights are not subject to debate, that's why they're enshrined in the Constitution.

So you support civil rights, unless people find out and are offended?
Posted by ML77 on June 2, 2010 at 12:35 PM · Report this
74
Oh I want the Savage Love app so badly! But I am afraid my kids with pick up my phone and tinker with it....does anyone know whether there is a way to password protect an app on an iPhone???
Posted by jubjubbird on June 2, 2010 at 12:43 PM · Report this
75
67- C'mon, you really think it would be acceptable for her to just tell angry parents to 'shut the fuck up'? You really don't think she'd run into a problem with that? Naw, the'd totally just go away, and her bosses would be totally satisfied with that level of service.

"What if the parents were outraged b/c it was a gay relationship? Surely you don't support firing gay teachers b/c of the "public relations nightmare" that might ensue if the bigoted asshats found out about it. What if was an interracial relationship? Should she cave and fire the guy then? "

Glad you brought that up. People tend to speak up on issues they see as bigotry. That's why the battles you mention are no longer the issues they once were. All the anonymous board-posters want to make this the school's battle, but where are you in it? How about your Facebook profile, is it private? You sellout!

"What if the girlfriend's mom had been lurking out in the bushes and took photos of them having sex without a condom and sent them to the principle?"

Principal. And if that were the case, you could probably charge her with something. But you know what? Email, texts and stuff you post on the internet? It isn't private, and once you hit 'send' it isn't yours anymore.

"Teens having unprotected sex is HUGE problem so we better fire this guy b/c he's a role model and all."

I already admitted that argument was crap. Read back a few.

Posted by AllisonM on June 2, 2010 at 12:43 PM · Report this
76
I dunno, I think Alison's got a point. And not on the top of her head, either. I think that anyone who posts, emails, texts, or however sends ANYTHING that they wouldn't want their boss or parents or partner or the whole world to see is a fucking idiot. Once sent or posted, it's gone, it's out of your control, and there are dozens of potential leaks in the system from software glitches to dropped or stolen phones to parents who have been praying for the opportunity to stick it up your butt, and I don't mean in a good way.

You think FB can't have a glitch that shows everybody everything? Well, they already have. And there's a lot of discontent in that company. It's gonna happen again.

Nowhere near enough people pay attention to that very good rule, but I got no sympathy when they're caught out and then squeal about it. If you know it would cost you your job if it were seen, then either don't send it, find another way to send it, wait 'til you see her in person and play it for her, or prepare for a court case. ESPECIALLY if you have a job where you work with kids.

Yeah, it's a damned shame that this guy lost his job because GF's mother is a bitch. Yeah, he should contest it because I guarantee you that the only difference between him and the parents who find him too creepy to work with their kids is that the stuff they watch and send hasn't been reported to THEIR bosses.

But he's also a tool.
Posted by Belleweather on June 2, 2010 at 12:46 PM · Report this
77
ML77-"the school is absolutely supposed to respect its employees civil rights, regardless of the community's outrage. "

According to who? The founding fathers of corporate America? Do you know how many people are fired because their facebook profile shows alcohol? I knew someone who was fired because of her personal blog. Dear Abby recently printed a letter from a lady who was fired after someone anonymously complained that she'd done lingerie modeling for a department store. You know, those black and white pictures in the paper? Racy stuff... What world are you living in that companies have any responsibility to your privacy? I had to pee in a cup and provide access to my personal credit file last time I got a job. Where's your outrage on that?

And I'm a coward!? What, writing a post on a board makes you a crusader?

Really, you want to make a statement on corporate practices regarding your privacy? Go to Facebook, change your access to all public and post a picture of yourself doing body shots off a stripper at your buddy's bachelor party. Then go apply for jobs, and see how many call-backs you get.
Posted by AllisonM on June 2, 2010 at 12:54 PM · Report this
78
Hey, y'know what else I had to do for that job? I had to sign an agreement saying that any ideas I have during my tenure there belong to the company.
Posted by AllisonM on June 2, 2010 at 12:55 PM · Report this
79
To the squirter: SHAM-WOW
Posted by Iconostential on June 2, 2010 at 1:02 PM · Report this
80
@75
"C'mon, you really think it would be acceptable for her to just tell angry parents to 'shut the fuck up'?"

No, I expect her to say "I'm sorry but we feel that firing a teacher b/c he engaged in a completely legal, consensual activity would be inappropriate. We also feel that it would be a gross error to justify an invasion of an employees privacy with such a firing."

"but where are you in it? How about your Facebook profile, is it private? You sellout!"

What in heaven's name does this have to do with anything?

"I already admitted that argument was crap."

Then what's your point? You seem to be saying that the firing was justified but if you don't think it's justified on the grounds that he's a "role model" then how can you possibly justify it? Just b/c the parents are outraged?

"Principal"

Thanks. Btw,in post 55 you spelled employment as "employement" and I corrected it for you without feeling a need to point it out.
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 2, 2010 at 1:17 PM · Report this
81
@76
"I think that anyone who posts, emails, texts, or however sends ANYTHING that they wouldn't want their boss or parents or partner or the whole world to see is a fucking idiot."

He didn't post it publicly he sent it privately to someone's phone and then that person's phone was hacked into. That's the difference. If someone had a private facebook account with no intention of it being read publicly and then that account was hacked into and the information was disseminated then they shouldn't be fired.
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 2, 2010 at 1:20 PM · Report this
82
@78

" Hey, y'know what else I had to do for that job? I had to sign an agreement saying that any ideas I have during my tenure there belong to the company."

Good for you. And if he had signed a contract that said "I will never take sexy photos/videos of myself and send them to my girlfriend" then you'd have an accurate comparison but seeing as it doesn't appear that he signed any such contract then it's not comparable at all.
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 2, 2010 at 1:23 PM · Report this
83
I used to be in WAFFLER's boat, having decided that penetrative sex wasn't okay, but just about everything else was. Similarly, my (now) fiance wanted to "go all the way." I guess I was lucky, because she understood that my faith was important to me and just gently challenged me to think through my position.

Unfortunately, WAFFLER's lady didn't do the same. She should have read between the lines to glaringly obvious "this guy is confused about sex, this requires time and conversation" but instead she took his desperate suggestion at face value and did something she knew was the wrong thing to do.

Back in my experience, eventually I came to see that the bible is pretty vague about what adultery means and she was there eagerly awaiting me. In the meantime we had plenty of fun with each other in lots of categories.

I guess what I'm saying is, we all come into relationships with certain handicaps. Treating each others' handicaps gently and thoughtfully is part of a successful relationship. Whether or not they survive that mistake as a couple remains to be seen, but I hope they both learn from it.
Posted by CBBaltimore on June 2, 2010 at 1:28 PM · Report this
84
@77

"I had to pee in a cup and provide access to my personal credit file last time I got a job. Where's your outrage on that?"

If someone had stolen your pee and gave it to the company to be tested and then hacked into your credit profile and gave it to your company to check without your consent then I (along with everyone here I'd bet) would be equally outraged. But it sounds like you consented to these things. If the coach had consented to the video being given to his employers and then they fired him then you'd have something but as it is......
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 2, 2010 at 1:28 PM · Report this
85
Luv Linens - http://luvlinen.com/

Best thing ever invented for those of us who squirt. The boyfriend and I call it the "pragmat," because it's such a great, pragmatic solution.

Towels DO NOT work. And I'm not into using a shower curtain, either.
Posted by Redninjachick on June 2, 2010 at 1:44 PM · Report this
86
@85 That's awesome to have a real testimonial. Does it seem to be durable; i.e. you won't need to replace it for awhile? I only ask b/c $200 is a bunch of scratch.
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 2, 2010 at 2:00 PM · Report this
87
Dan: Why did you say that you hope she's not being fisted every time she has sex?
Posted by fistee on June 2, 2010 at 2:01 PM · Report this
trisckit 88
WAFFLER deserves his misery for being a stupid Jesus freak.
Posted by trisckit on June 2, 2010 at 2:02 PM · Report this
89
email to richardsod@duvalschools.org is sent.

Good advice as always, Dan. I've been reading since before my son was born, dug through the archives when I was pregnant, he is 4 tomorrow, and I really do not think you have changed. To all the people who do, let them look into their own personal growth, and not project their issues onto you.

You, naturally, did not give a tiny rats behind to begin with. Keep on as you are.

Love from Norway.

Naomi
Posted by Naomi_Dahl on June 2, 2010 at 2:09 PM · Report this
90
To the squirter: What about using a ShamWow!
Posted by Cleo on June 2, 2010 at 2:11 PM · Report this
91
email to richardsod@duvalschools.org is sent.

Good advice as always, Dan. I've been reading since before my son was born, dug through the archives when I was pregnant, he is 4 tomorrow, and I really do not think you have changed. To all the people who do, let them look into their own personal growth, and not project their issues onto you.

You, naturally, did not give a tiny rats behind to begin with. Keep on as you are.

Love from Norway.

Naomi
Posted by Naomi_Dahl on June 2, 2010 at 2:14 PM · Report this
Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In 92
@ 83 & WAFFLER

"Unfortunately, WAFFLER's lady didn't do the same."

Both of you blame the woman for not being saints in the face of your complete ass-hattery. The truth is that you both entered relationships w/ fucked-up, twisted & perverted (not the good kind) rules. 83, great, you lucked out & your woman was cool enough to gently show you what an asshat you were. But that was _your_ luck, and _not_ her responsibility.

And WAFFLE? You should date your palm for a while as you straighten yourself out & stop inflicting your fucked-up attitude on nice young women.
Posted by Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In on June 2, 2010 at 2:49 PM · Report this
93
To WET:

I too am a squirter that will soak. There are high end waterproof mattress pads available at your local Macy's or Tuesday Morning. They don't crinkle or crunch. Just a nice cushy and cottony feel. If you don't make it off of the bed - as we all know that will happen. When done pull it off with the sheet and throw it in the wash when soaked. We even keep ours on a Tempurpedic. Works!
Posted by SoakedinSeattle on June 2, 2010 at 3:02 PM · Report this
94
One word to the squirter: Sham-WOW.
Posted by ggg on June 2, 2010 at 3:10 PM · Report this
95
Want to ditto 72's suggestion for the Liberator throw. I have one, it's great for squirters, and it's way sexier than anything designed for bedwetters.
Posted by oohlookasquirrel on June 2, 2010 at 3:21 PM · Report this
96
The story about the coach is almost two weeks old now, but, as far as I can tell, there is some dispute over whether Robinson put the video on a school computer or whether the video was only on his cell phone. Of course the school maitiains the former and the Robinson maintains the latter. However, that nuance (as well as the fact that Robinson was placed in a "non-teaching roll" and not necessarily fired) seems to be absent from Dan's righteous indgination.
Posted by mjpam on June 2, 2010 at 4:05 PM · Report this
97
"roll" should be "role"
Posted by mjpam on June 2, 2010 at 4:06 PM · Report this
98
bassplayerguy, my examples were relevant to the person I was talking to, the one who said:

"YES, the school is absolutely supposed to respect its employees civil rights, regardless of the community's outrage. Our civil rights are not subject to debate, that's why they're enshrined in the Constitution. "

What I should have said was I don't see which civil right was violated, but the examples still stand as common examples of corporate-employee interactions that dictate what the employee can/can't do in spare time. And yes, I suppose we 'voluntarily' give that information in the sense that we sign a form, but that dosen't make it any less invasive. I suppose I'd have 'voluntarily' given them nude pics of myself if they'd been a requirement for getting any job, the way a credit report is. My facebook example was relevant in the sense that your personal activities absolutely can and are commonly used against you by your employer and this is nothing new. I still want to know why so many people are outraged about this when you've been 'voluntarily' giving up your own privacy to your employer for years.

In any event, I give up the argument. If you guys want to do stuff like this, it'll mean less competition for the rest of us.

And thanks, Belleweather, you said it better and less obnoxiously than I did.
Posted by AllisonM on June 2, 2010 at 4:13 PM · Report this
99
@76: are you kidding? My friend, that message wasn't sent "privately" - there's NO SUCH THING. Do you control the phone companies? The internet? Every key stroke you make anytime is potentially recoverable. Ditto for every file you send. You can lose a phone - it can be stolen - it can be picked up by someone when you're not looking. Any code made by a person can be unlocked by a more determined person.

There is no such thing as privacy. With every single thing you transmit, every text, every call, you're just betting you won't get unlucky. Every post we make here could be connected to us if someone had the will to do so.

And you can yell all you want about privacy and this or that *shouldn't* have happened and *wasn't* fair and *was* a violation of your rights, but at the end of the day that's not gonna matter much if your job or your reputation or your relationship is sunk.

All I'm sayin' is - make your decisions based on the fact that there's really no such thing as privacy online.
Posted by Belleweather on June 2, 2010 at 4:28 PM · Report this
Milbury 100
Dammit, I never get to be first.

But, Sham-Wow is a fucking godsend.
Posted by Milbury http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rLkEsoO6t0 on June 2, 2010 at 4:33 PM · Report this
101
Look, the whole "Send an email to Donna" thing works this way. She fired him because she thought the negative attention would be really bad, and she could reduce it by just getting rid of him.

Quick aside - the coach is being fired because the girl's mum committed a serious invasion of his privacy. If the school thinks they were harmed, they need to sue the mum, not fire the coach. SHE distributed inflammatory, stolen, private material to "scores of other people", with intent to harm the reputation of an employee of the school (who had done nothing wrong.)

Back to the email thing: We all need to write letters to show the principal that she was wrong. Not wrong to fire the guy; I think she probably knows that already. We need to show her that she was wrong TO THINK that firing the guy was better from the negative-attention-publicity perspective. Savage Love readers (and the rest of the world) need to jump up and down and cause trouble, to make it clear to everyone that the public outing of an embarrassing (but legal) part of an employee's private life might cause a little bad press, but FIRING the employee for his embarrassing (but legal) unintentional outing WILL cause a TREMENDOUS amount of bad press.

So when it happens to you, your boss will be thinking "Okay this is bad. Damage control time. DON'T FIRE HIM BECAUSE HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG. What else?"
Posted by Rophuine on June 2, 2010 at 4:55 PM · Report this
102
Squirter: try "chux." They are used in hospitals and nursing homes (now THERE'S a fantasy to explore), put under people who are unfortunate enough to be incontinent.

They are absorbent on one side, plastic on the underside.

More opportunities to do it wherever you like! Just lay a few down, and toss when done. (apologies to the environment.)
Posted by BJN on June 2, 2010 at 5:43 PM · Report this
103
I'm incessantly baffled that people allow themselves to get cock blocked by Jesus.
Posted by p burke on June 2, 2010 at 6:42 PM · Report this
104
Here's the note I sent the idiot principal--I hope lots of others do the same!

Hooray for you for showing your students what sex-negative BS is! Who's setting the example now??? What two consenting--and that is THE key word--adults do in their private lives is PRIVATE. He didn't show the pics to HIS (underage) students.
You must be celibate--because I'm sure someone so high and mighty wouldn't stoop to having SEX with another adult.
Posted by It's ME on June 2, 2010 at 6:45 PM · Report this
Robin8 105
Like any fetish or just plain obsession, big clits have their very own web site: http://www.mybigclit.com (pay-to-play)
And so do big labia:
http://www.sexylabia.com/ (free)
and
http://www.large-labia-productions.com (free registration)

I think part of the problem with big clits is that if they are big enough, they cease to look like clits and begin to resemble dicks, making their owners chicks with dicks. (Not that there's anything wrong with that....)
Posted by Robin8 http://shutyoureverlovingpiehole.wordpress.com on June 2, 2010 at 6:48 PM · Report this
growler 106
WAFFLE is unbelievably FAKE!

savage gets dumber by the week.
Posted by growler on June 2, 2010 at 8:15 PM · Report this
growler 107
OH AND PEOPLE WHO SEND SEXUAL PICS OF THEMSELVES OVER THE PHONE/WEB AND THINK THEY ARE SAFE............

ARE FUCKING RETARDED!!!!!!!!!!!!

*had to use all caps on this one, sorry peeps.
Posted by growler on June 2, 2010 at 8:21 PM · Report this
108
forttroff sells these great plastic sheets that u spread over the bed and have all the sex and cum u want then u wip it clean and ur bed is perfect
Posted by loves dildoes on June 2, 2010 at 8:40 PM · Report this
109
I also had to send a letter to that twat. I bet she will like tomorrows inbox
Posted by Yumietreat on June 2, 2010 at 9:24 PM · Report this
110
Reader #1 must not be from the South, because all good conservative "vow of chastity" Bapti-costal kids down here know that baby Jesus LOVES for the pre-marrieds to have Butt-Sex before marriage ... it's why so many of them were accidentally getting preggo from all of the Santorum draining into the virginal canal.

The more I think about it, I think baby Jesus invented Santorum pregnancies to commemorate his own virginal birth.

I think I'll speak in tongues, now.
Posted by galvestondude on June 2, 2010 at 9:38 PM · Report this
111
Don't care about who the teachers are having sex with as long as it's a consenting adult, but I don't want stupid people teaching my kids.

Lesson 4,321. Don't give anyone naked pictures of yourself, don't for Chrissake send them to a phone, and any time you're tempted, imagine all the people who might one day pick up your partner's phone (my BF's a parent) seeing the pictures. Don't, just don't, as Redbook says - it's a "don't."
Posted by GG1000 on June 2, 2010 at 9:46 PM · Report this
112
Once waffler gets over his momentary mental mindfuck, I suggest that he go to town on his lady, using a strap-on. If his dick can't touch her no-no maybe a lifelike cast of Gigantor can.
Posted by Whooptadoopta on June 2, 2010 at 10:24 PM · Report this
113
@Belleweather... of course someone can ILLEGALLY obtain any information they want when transmitted electronically... but it is ILLEGAL. The government can't even legally intercept private communications without a warrant. There are court cases pending about this very thing.

If anything the principal was wrong simply because she used information obtained illegally to make a decision about her employee. If they live in an at will state then she can fire him for whatever reason she wants (assuming he's not tenured)... but even if he sent the message from a school computer she wouldn't know about it if someone didn't illegally obtain the information and illegally send it to her.
Posted by bugnut on June 2, 2010 at 10:42 PM · Report this
114

Dan, I have no idea how you go about picking your letters each week, but really man, it is worse than fourth grade crap.
Seriously, someone needs your advice for protecting her mattress LOL

Posted by Nohra on June 2, 2010 at 11:57 PM · Report this
115
To the squirter -- use a rubberized flannel pad. They are soft and breathable, yet waterproof. You can buy it by the yard from fabric stores on the cheap, or buy a serged, finished product that's made for a soft, waterproof barrier for babys' cribs. You can get them w/o a baby theme print so as not to ruin the mood. And you can even go organic with a Naturepedic Organic Mattress Protector Pad. They really work -- my baby just peed on one tonight, right on our bed, and no moisture made it through. Happy squirting!!
Posted by estellar on June 3, 2010 at 1:02 AM · Report this
116
I love this week's illustration. I almost want it on a t-shirt.
Posted by Avi on June 3, 2010 at 1:12 AM · Report this
117
Well, I only started reading you 2 or 3 years ago, so maybe I missed your rough and raw years...

I appreciate your realness on sex issues, and I think more straight people should heed your advice on relationships. It's because of you that I feel confident that we all deserve a right to a healthy relationship with someone in ALL areas: emotionally and sexually.

As a gay man, you've helped come to terms with who I am, and I'm grateful for that. I've been slowly coming out to more and more friends, and the response has been wonderful.

As far as those who have wrote you saying you're "an insufferably bitchy sacky twatty cunt prick", well Dan, we can't win 'em all. We all have our "insufferably bitchy sacky twatty cunt prick" moments (IMO, yours happen with the YPW posts...we get it, Youth Pastors are nuts...the ECDAMAF moments, okay, those aren't bad).
Posted by MT3 on June 3, 2010 at 4:25 AM · Report this
118
Hey WAFFLE, try fucking your girlfriend with a dildo... I assume you're saying penile-vaginal sex is not OK in your religion, but surely a dildo in vagina would be fine? And stop giving her a hard time because she did what you suggested.
Posted by tiare on June 3, 2010 at 6:22 AM · Report this
119
At hospitals we use something called a "chux" pad. It has plastic backing, but a cotton-ish side to go against your skin. They are fairly thin but super absorbant (we use them for incontinent patients, chemo spills, everything). They are cheap and disposable - probably not the most environmentally friendly (they are not reusable) but certainly convenient. You should be able to find them at most larger pharmacy stores like Walgreen's, CVS, etc.
Posted by RN on June 3, 2010 at 7:54 AM · Report this
120
@92: Right on.
Posted by Gloria on June 3, 2010 at 8:51 AM · Report this
121
Sorry but I remain unconvinced about the alleged certainty of WET's gender. I don't see how "squirt" is necessarily a euphemism for female ejaculation and NOT male as well. Dan may have edited the letter - he does sometimes - but there's nothing there that says the writer is definitely female.

Men's cocks "squirt" all the time when they're anally stimulated, including str8 men. I don't see how we can know that this person is definitely female.
Posted by wayne on June 3, 2010 at 9:05 AM · Report this
122
@121: You're right that a man can be described to "squirt."

But squirting is pretty much *the* term to describe female ejaculation. It's the only word used for it, whereas there are plenty of other terms for male ejaculation -- so it's totally reasonable to presume "squirting" describes the female function, not the male.

Plus, you overlook the fact that WET describes puddles and "soaking sheets", which is also fairly common among women who squirt. Unless you mean to say that men "all the time" piss themselves during anal stimulation (maybe you can illuminate me on that one, since I readily admit I'm no expert on sex), or ejaculate puddles?
Posted by Gloria on June 3, 2010 at 9:52 AM · Report this
123
time for an android app!
Posted by shrooti on June 3, 2010 at 10:43 AM · Report this
124
Question: Would Mr. Savage's response to WAFFLER have been the same if he hadn't mentioned that he had religious reasons?

Say someone just wants to draw a line. That line can be anywhere. It's a matter of personal limits.

"I won't do more than kiss unless I'm in a committed relationship of some kind," or "I believe that vaginal sex is different from other sexual activities, so that's the one thing I'm saving for marriage only."

Maybe, for this guy, religion is just an excuse. Maybe we need to develop a culture where it's okay to say, "This is my limit and it's okay if it doesn't make sense to anyone but my partner and me."
Posted by DRF on June 3, 2010 at 11:51 AM · Report this
125
Ms. Richardson,

Regarding the recent "incident" with your former football coach Jason Robinson shame on you for four things:

1. Interfering with his private life.
2. Publicly humiliating him for something that was none of your business.
3. Failing to politely chastise the mother of Jason's girlfriend when she distributed private pictures to the public.
4. Failing to diplomatically defuse the incident in a mature and responsible manner.

Shame on you.
Posted by 44##44 on June 3, 2010 at 11:56 AM · Report this
126
I like the way you've changed. In the old days you were too acidic and sarcastic, sometimes to the point of being insensitive. Now I think you've reached a happy balance. You are humane and sensitive while still being able to call bullshit bullshit. Keep your current style please!
Posted by I have always been... east coaster on June 3, 2010 at 12:09 PM · Report this
127
what the heck was the mother doing snooping around her 20 year old daughters phone any way?
I love my mother to death but I would freak the fuck out if I found her snooping around my phone! its got my personal correspondence and my personal pics and shit on it, if I want to show you something I will show it to you.
Its another case of over protective "helicopter" parents. (like the ones that find their adult kids sex toys hidden in their apartment bedroom closets where they have no business being)
Posted by BhamGuy on June 3, 2010 at 1:18 PM · Report this
128
In regards to the coach, while I didn't look long enough to find a reliable source, a quick internet search indicated that this was not just some 20 year old college student. She was a former student of the coach. If their relationship started while she was still a student, that changes everything. Even if they didn't start dating until after she graduated I would still not want him anywhere near my daughter! His behavior doesn't have to be illegal to be wrong.
Posted by ConcernedFather on June 3, 2010 at 1:25 PM · Report this
129
By the way, Alison, just last year a judge in Louisiana denied a marriage license to an interracial couple, and while there was appropriate outrage, it was not universal. And may I remind you that we are not so far from the time when a school may well have found such a relationship to be a "public relations nightmare." What would you have said then -- that they have no duty to defend because the parents don't like it? That's ridiculous. I don't know all the facts of this situation, but if a firing isn't justified, it isn't justified, and the fact that a school district may have to take some flack for putting up a defense doesn't excuse the responsibility.
Posted by spark on June 3, 2010 at 1:32 PM · Report this
130
everyone who is speculating about waffler's sexual orientation: he is willing to GO DOWN ON HER, but not stick his penis into her. does this sound like a gay man?
Posted by ellarosa on June 3, 2010 at 2:12 PM · Report this
131
@99

"All I'm sayin' is - make your decisions based on the fact that there's really no such thing as privacy online."

That's a ridiculous argument that you can use to justify any computer crime. Someone hacked into your bank account and drained all the money? Well you knew that the bank provides access to bank accounts over the internet and there's no privacy online so it's your fault for having a bank account. Someone hacks into your computer remotely, uses a key stroke log to steal your identity, and destroys your credit? Well you know that that if you have an internet connection that your computer can be hacked into and there's no privacy on the internet so it's your fault that you kept any confidential, private information on your computer.

But you seem to be missing the point. Who CARES if he took dirty pictures of himself and sent them to his girlfriend? It's not like they got caught fornicating on the wresting mats at school. Nobody should be fired for engaging in a completely legal activity that they participate in away from their job. And the only reason he got fired in this instance is because it was a sexually themed video which is why Dan (and others) feel that it was a "sexphobic" firing. If his girlfriend's mother had sent the principal a video of him juggling chainsaws (a veeeeeeery dangerous activity) then I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't have been fired.
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 3, 2010 at 2:24 PM · Report this
132
ConcernedFather, she was a student of the football coach? And even if she was, she isn't anymore. We don't know when they started dating, and that's not actually the issue. The issue is the mom invaded her daughter's privacy and was horrible enough to actually send the pictures to third parties. They didn't fire him for dating someone who used to go to his school, they fired him because of the pictures. You can find his totally legal relationship creepy, and perhaps it is, but that's not relevant to the matter at hand.
Posted by chicago girl on June 3, 2010 at 2:30 PM · Report this
133
AllisonM,
Like you, I have too much time on my hands (as evidenced by the fact that I read through all the comments ;-).
Get over it. The principal does have a reason to fear bad publicity in what must be a lame, right-wing county in Florida, but the guy didn't do anything technically wrong, and shouldn't have been fired.
Maybe his GF should just move in with him so her mom can't snoop her phone?
Posted by Snarky on June 3, 2010 at 3:43 PM · Report this
134
People should be able to send anything they want to their main squeeze. That said, it's foolish to assume that the intended is the only one getting the message. People leave cell phones on desks, counters, in cars... and if your sweetie is still living with parents, you can't assume anything. Just show her in person.
Posted by ggg on June 3, 2010 at 4:04 PM · Report this
135
Has anyone else wondered if the coach was incompetent and this was the easiest way to get rid of him. Teacher unions have made it next to impossible to get rid of dead wood or incompetents. From what I've read the principal was probably looking for any excuse to can his ass. A teacher should be teaching, not spending most of his time in class texting on his phone. The guy also seems to be something of a hypocrite by (supposedly) publicly praising traditional christian (conservative)values and then engaging in contradictory behavior.

I also suspect the Mom was not too happy about her 20 year old daughter dating a 32 year old man. I wonder if the guy had been the daughter's teacher?
Posted by a skeptic and a cynic on June 3, 2010 at 4:30 PM · Report this
136
Right on response to WAFFLER, Dan!!!!

You continue to rock!!!
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 3, 2010 at 4:59 PM · Report this
137
WAFFLER sounds more like Lack of Religious Reason.
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 3, 2010 at 5:00 PM · Report this
czarlos 138
Sent a letter to the wrongheaded principal. Thanks for bringing this issue to light, Dan. Anyone told the ACLU yet?
Posted by czarlos on June 3, 2010 at 5:09 PM · Report this
139
I have a theory.

WAFFLER is falling back on a religious excuse for something totally unrelated. He has, or at least believes he has, a small dick. Either that or some other penetration-specific performance anxiety (he's scared he can't keep it up, scared he'll come in five seconds, etc.)

Plenty of otherwise godbothering teenagers fuck like rabbits and feel guilty about it later, but this guy... nah, read the terminology he uses, the liberal swearing, etc. He's no prude, he's just scared of failing.
Posted by DexX http://www.bi-alliance.org/ on June 3, 2010 at 8:47 PM · Report this
140
@124: The 'religious' limit should be treated differently to a personal limit, precisely because it's religious. A personal limit is "this is all I'm comfortable with". A religious limit is OFTEN (not always!) "all the pressure from the church I go to on Sunday says this is how it HAS to be or I'll go to hell - and I've been indoctrinated my entire life and never thought about it for myself". I'm all for letting people have whatever personal limit they want, and I'm all for challenging people to think about these externally-imposed 'limits' to see if they make sense for who they are and what they want.
Posted by Rophuine on June 3, 2010 at 9:42 PM · Report this
141
Chicago Girl (132), I don't know about this case but most coaches are also teachers at the school they coach for. And while a teacher dating a former student may not be the issue to you, I'm sure it is to many parents at the school. I won't try to defend the mother's actions (I hear he is suing her and I hope he wins), but the principal has to deal with it now that it is out. Don't shit where you eat and don't fuck where you work! This goes double if you work with kids.
Posted by ConcernedFather on June 3, 2010 at 10:51 PM · Report this
142
For mattress saving:

...another cheap option is a washable pee pad from the pet store with an old soft towel over it.

This has advantages of being portable, stashable, and reusable.

Posted by shelldavis4 on June 3, 2010 at 11:54 PM · Report this
143
btw, college students are considered dependants (at least by the insurance companies) usually until they are 24.

If the college student was living at home,and Mom was paying for her phone, then it could be argued that the phone was technically Mom's property... house rules, and all that crap.
Posted by shelldavis4 on June 3, 2010 at 11:58 PM · Report this
144
I have to laugh at WAFFLER, who thought that he could keep himself 'pure' by not having vaginal sex, but it was ok for his GF (possible future fiancee/wife) to 'defile' herself with another man. It's really crazy the way some people think and the ways they contort their minds based on 'religious' beliefs. Oral sex is sex. Anal sex is sex. There is nothing "purer" about oral sex.
Posted by Christopher B on June 4, 2010 at 5:26 AM · Report this
145
WET - you can get absorbent pads like the kind they use on hospital beds at most drug stores. They're filled with super-absorbent gel and have a thin plastic backing and soft face so it won't feel like screwing on a sheet. If you local drugstore doesn't carry them, try the 'incontinence' section of the big box stores or - if in dire need - large pet stores now carry them as housebreaking pads.

Happy squirting!
Posted by nopinky on June 4, 2010 at 7:54 AM · Report this
146
ConcernedFather, I imagine you're right that many parents at the school are thinking about the dating a former student thing a LOT (I might, too), but it's still not why he was fired. Also, and I have no idea what the particular situation was, but in small towns the high school football coach is a pretty exalted position (I believe other football coaches have stated that all FB coaches need to be like Caesar's wife, and that the guy should have been more careful), and it's likely that his other duties were all PE related stuff. However, I agree this is probably where he met her, and that it was really, really stupid for him to date her after graduation. Still, the outrage over that isn't why he got fired; the pictures were what damned him. And you're quite right about the creepiness factor. If my daughter was dating someone like that, I'd send her as far away as possible for college and hope it fizzled out naturally.
Posted by chicago girl on June 4, 2010 at 8:34 AM · Report this
147
God how I hope that Coach Robinson marries the girl to whom he sent the nude photos. Then her nosy meddlesome none of her fucking business mother will have to put up with him as a son-in-law. And furthermore I hope that he hangs nude pictures of himself all over their living room so that the old bitch won't be able to visit her daughter without facing the reality of her previous interference.
Posted by mcflyer54 on June 4, 2010 at 10:19 AM · Report this
148
For WET:

A tried and true method to save the mattress - Use a waterproof baby pad - usually about 2ft x 3ft, and terry cloth textured. You have a simple length of waterproof fabric that you can roll up, move, kneel on...whatever - and they're cheap!

a good one:

http://www.amazon.com/American-Baby-Comp…
Posted by Epiphany on June 4, 2010 at 2:16 PM · Report this
149
@WET Go to the pet supply store and buy puppy training pads. They come in different sizes and are super absorbent with a plastic back, like a giant square pantyliner.
Posted by FeatherWeight on June 4, 2010 at 2:20 PM · Report this
150
I don't mean to be reductive when it comes to Coach Robinson, but I feel like both sides of the debate are insisting it's about technology and privacy when it's really not. It's about a teacher dating a significantly younger woman. That's why he was fired. Everything else is just ancillary.

The reason why no one particularly wants to talk about this angle is that it's kind of a loser any way you slice it. The girl was of age. Case closed. Robinson, as a new teacher, was on a standard three-year probation and could be fired for any reason. The fact that he didn't break the law or the terms of his contract doesn't really matter from a strictly legal standpoint because the school was under no obligation to renew his contract. So what is there left to talk about but cell phones?

Quite a lot, actually. But let's take a detour. Quarterback Ben Roethlisberger was suspended from the NFL for having sex with a college student in a public bathroom. The college student originally accused Roethlisberger of rape, but then rescinded the accusation. And yes, for the record, having sex in public stall is illegal. That being said, no charges have been pressed. Nonetheless, the NFL has made the decision that this sort of behavior constitutes a violation of their code of ethics. Are we to write emails Roger Goodell as well as Donna Richardson?

It'd be nice to live in a world where who we sleep with and how has no bearing on our professional lives. But while Roethlisberger is somewhat of a less sympathetic figure than Jason Robinson (this was the second time the Stealer's quarterback been accused of rape), both men trade in a kind of "fan-dom." Like the NFL, Mandarin High School gets to decide what their code of ethics looks like.

Personally, I find this particular "code" hypocritical. But you'd have to be living in Cloud Cuckooland to think that this sort of thing doesn't happen every day, in every industry. Football coaches aren't elected officials but they serve a function in the community that is more or less analogous. Sometimes it's worth taking up the mantle of people who are victimized by their community's small-mindedness. A football coach's right to barely legal nookie doesn't really feel like one of those situations to me.
More...
Posted by Schreiber on June 4, 2010 at 3:38 PM · Report this
151
@150

"That's why he was fired. Everything else is just ancillary."

BS. If that was the case then they would've just fired him, they wouldn't have need/waited for the video sent by his GF's mother.
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 4, 2010 at 3:56 PM · Report this
152
Like I said, I guess it is a little reductive. But I think the point still stands. The video is significant only in the sense that he sent it to the 20-year-old. Do you really think that if the girl was 30 years old and still living with her mother and the situation had played out the way it did the school would have reacted the same way?
Posted by Schreiber on June 4, 2010 at 4:07 PM · Report this
153
@152 Of course. If it was as simple as all that would've fired him before they got the video. They wouldn't even bother to mention the video, they'd simply say "we were concerned about a teacher dating a younger person." But either way, they couldn't fire him just because he was dating someone younger any more than they could've fired him for being in a gay relationship. The Roethlisberger situation doesn't even compare b/c there was an illegal activity (public sex.) There's nothing illegal about what the coach did.
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 4, 2010 at 5:03 PM · Report this
154
@ WAFFLER: You need this woman like you need another hole in the head. She's already cheated on you, and now has managed to get you to feel guilty about her infidelity. Drop her like the bad habit she is. Tough luck finding anyone worthwhile who DOESN'T put out before marriage. I have heard they're out there, but the odds are against you. Also, what does a religious man do when his new bride is a lousy lay?
Posted by Hori on June 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM · Report this
155
@152 First, a couple of clarifications. The coach wasn't fired. His contract is not being renewed. It seems like that distinction shouldn't matter, but it does. Robinson isn't suing Mandarin High School for dismissing him. He's suing his girlfriend's parents for violating his privacy. He has no case against the school. Second, Roethlisberger was not convicted of any crime. Whether he should have been or not isn't legally germane.

Now. Yes, you're right. The school could have gone on a jihad against the coach before the mother brought the situation to a head. The fact that they weren't interested in doing so on their own volition isn't really the point. The mother brought the situation to a head -and was ABLE to bring the situation to a head- because of her daughter's age. She threatened a kind of scorched-earth public campaign against the coach and the school knew that kind of campaign would be compelling exactly because of the girl's age. Let's not be obtuse: if the daughter had been 30 and not 20 the school wouldn't have taken her seriously.

Maybe I'm the one being obtuse, but I can't imagine "the football coach is a kinky freak" being nearly as effective a rallying cry as "the football coach fucks young girls."

Let's agree that no one here did anything illegal. Not Robinson, not Mandarin High School. The question is whether either party did anything wrong, legality aside. I think Mandarin High School did something wrong. But it's not a battle I feel particularly driven to fight. If his contract was not renewed because the mother of his 28-year-old boyfriend went to the school board or if some anti-miscegenation asshole was pissed he was dating a black woman came after him, I'd probably feel differently. Maybe that makes me hypocritical in addition to obtuse. But I'm not particularly interested in going to bat for this guy.

Men who date much younger women bug me, I guess. Should there be a law against it? No, of course not. There also shouldn't be laws against men not performing cunnilingus or refusing to wear condoms. But both reflect a fundamentally bad attitude when it comes to relationships. Seeking out partners with less experience and less independence than you hits some of the same notes for me. I know Dan and I don't see eye-to-eye on this, but I guess I'll have to just live with that.
More...
Posted by Schreiber on June 4, 2010 at 5:53 PM · Report this
156
I mean yeah. Email the principal. Let her know that not renewing the coach's contract will cost her school politically. It's the right thing to do, I guess. I'm not a mind reader and I don't know what went through Robinson's mind when he decided to get his dick wet this 20-year-old. Maybe they're soulmates. Maybe love just happens regardless of social mores. Or maybe 20-year-olds don't ask uncomfortable questions or look at you like you're the kind of loser who doesn't know how to talk to women your own age. I'm probably not the right person to ask.
Posted by Schreiber on June 4, 2010 at 6:44 PM · Report this
157
@152 Btw, despite the illegal activity Ben didn't get fired, unlike the coach who didn't do anything illegal and still got fired.
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 4, 2010 at 7:04 PM · Report this
158
"Second, Roethlisberger was not convicted of any crime."

That's b/c they're not going to prosecute him for having sex in public but sex in public is still a crime.
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 4, 2010 at 7:14 PM · Report this
159
Hey Allison- Drug deals and street racing are criminal acts. The exchange of pictures *of consenting adults* shared *between consenting adults* is not.
The school should have checked to make sure that the person who recieved the pictures was, in fact, of legal age and then dropped it, telling the young woman's mother "They are both adults and this administration cannot see itself intruding on their personal lives".

Now, if he'd been surfin' porn on the school computers, sending adult pics to minors, putting indiscreet material on his FaceBook page or even if his phone was one issued by and billed to the school district, I'd be making coffee and scones for the lynch mob... but he did not do that. He sent his adult girlfriend a few racy pics... and that should NEVER have been an issue at work.
Posted by ApplesVOranges on June 4, 2010 at 7:29 PM · Report this
160
Frankly, I'd have a hell of a lot more sympathy for Roethlisberger if he'd banged his twenty-something girlfriend on the boardroom conference table in front of the NFL Commission than if he'd taken that same nineteen year old back to his apartment. But that's beside the point.

Using the high school administration to split the couple up was a socially irresponsible move on the part of the girl's mom. That's not what school administrations are for. But do I blame her for wanting Robinson's balls in a jar on her coffee table? Nah, not really.

Of course there are anecdotes about how this older man and that younger women wound up being a gold star couple. But that's the thing about anecdotes...there are always plenty to go around. I have a few of my own.

But like I also said. I'm not arguing against harranging Mandarin High School. It just makes me a little queasy is all.
Posted by Schreiber on June 4, 2010 at 7:45 PM · Report this
161
WAFFLER'S girlfriend was horny. She was ready to get it on with a receptive male and WAFFLER was not a receptive male. Sometimes hormones get the best of us in an adult mutually consentual situation (and other situations, but that is not relevant to this situation). Yes, women have a sex drive too, Howard. Thus the brisk and ongoing sale of vibrators. If you are going to be sexually repressed in a relationship and you state that you will accept "creative" satisfaction, you have to accept and *expect* the consequences. Quit being a whiny wuss.
Posted by rsuprincess on June 4, 2010 at 8:09 PM · Report this
162
@WAFFLER I dated a guy like you in college. I DTMFA. Best decision I ever made. I have been having awesome sex ever since. You are a dumbsh*T!
Posted by lbc on June 4, 2010 at 8:44 PM · Report this
163
For those of you in sympathy with the administrators forced to cope with some public relations nightmare, I have a retort.

I've often said this in my personal life to people unduly paranoid about gossip. Gossip only has power if it gets to you or if you let it get to you.

The administrators' FEAR of the photos makes a public relations nightmare, not the photos themselves.

Imagine the alternative. A spokesperson calls a press conference and says, decisively, "This is an adult teacher in a consensual adult relationship outside of school. A 20 year old woman is a legal adult, so no one has any legal claim whatsoever that any aspect of their private romantic relationship has any relevance whatsoever to his job. We apologize to both he and his girlfriend for this invasion of their privacy. There is no story here. The end."

Imagine that?

On a side note, it is this kind of scandal-phobia that is plaguing leftist politics, something that conservatives play to their full advantage. Consider, for example, Bush and Cheney's proud and voluminous declarations of NO SHAME about their many crimes: Yeah, we tortured, what you gonna do about it? Yeah, we went to war under false pretenses, what you gonna do about it? FFS, Cheney said that he was external to the 3 branches of government! In contrast, we have a Democrat party and leadership that cower at the hint of accusation, at the whiff of impropriety. GET A SPINE and SOME INTEGRITY people. Being shamed by others only works if you are ashamed yourself.

*Exit soap box..."
Posted by maddy811 on June 5, 2010 at 8:25 AM · Report this
164
I think that most of you are missing/ignoring the main issue that likely got him canned. The video itself is not the issue other than the fact that it exposed the relationship. The fact that she is twenty is only part of the problem. The fact that she is a former student of the school he coaches for is big problem. I don't know how or when they started dating, but school officials and parents are likely concerned that this is only the first student he has be caught with not the first he been with. They are also likely concerned that if down the road he gets caught fucking a current student instead of a former one, they open themselves up to a huge lawsuit for not getting rid of him when the knew he had a thing for young girls. Teacher/coaches fucking former students is creepy even if it isn't illegal. The mom went way overboard in going so public, but the coach was a fool and the school had little choice but to let him go.
Posted by ConcernedFather on June 5, 2010 at 10:36 AM · Report this
165
@160
Sorry but the Roethlisberger analogy isn't flying at all. The only reason we heard about it is because there was an accusation of rape, the only reason there was a reprimand and suspension is because of the contributing to the delinquency and the sex in public. If this had been a regular ol' consensual relationship with a 20 year old in his apartment then there's no way that we hear about this and there's no way anyone cares.

"Men who date much younger women bug me, I guess."

I can't help you there but you might want to ask why that is (especially b/c in this case the guy's not THAT much older.) I'm not sure if you've noticed but it's not uncommon for women to be attracted to older men (case in point my wife was just telling me about her "old man crush" on Robert Duvall in Lonesome Dove.) Would you see it differently if it was a 30 year old woman and 20 year old man? What if it was a 30 year old woman and a 55 year old man?
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 5, 2010 at 10:38 AM · Report this
166
@164

We don't know if she was a former student or not and even if she was, she had been finished with school for 3 years and lived 150 miles away from the school. However it's not that likely that she was a student while he was a coach. She's in her 3rd year of college; he's in the second year of his contract, do the math. Besides, everyone is a former student from somewhere.
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 5, 2010 at 10:53 AM · Report this
Lilliable 167
I am not a squirter and therefore have no use for anything extra absorbent, but I still felt the need to Google "Shamwow" just based on the name alone. The guy says, "Made in Germany, you know that the Germans always make good stuff." All I can say is "SHAM-WOW!"
Posted by Lilliable on June 5, 2010 at 12:17 PM · Report this
168
They make disposable bed pads for incontinence that are absorbent and lined with plastic so you won't soak. Keep some on hand and whip one out when it looks like you're gonna be a gusher.
Posted by Taamar on June 5, 2010 at 12:41 PM · Report this
169
Isn't any employment "at-will" essentially? In the Commonwealth of Virginia it is anyway. I can get fired for using too much sugar in my coffee. Was the phone that he sent it from paid for by the school? I have a phone paid for by my company and I'm surely not going to send out pics from it of my clit. I'm sure as a wouldn't trust this douche to take care of a chigger, let alone a high school kid.
Posted by atomick on June 5, 2010 at 12:57 PM · Report this
170
There's a long history of invading the private lives of teachers. In the 19th century laws forbidding (usually unmarried) teachers from traveling with any non-family member was common. We're only 175 years removed of some real Taliban-style shit.
Posted by IowaIan on June 5, 2010 at 3:49 PM · Report this
171
@169

But if your contract didn't get renewed b/c your boss found out that you were putting too much sugar in you coffee at home then wouldn't you be the teeniest bit pissed?
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 5, 2010 at 4:13 PM · Report this
172
I'm not really arguing with any particular point, bass man. And no, a 30-year-old/55-year-old situation wouldn't bother me very much. Thirty-year-olds, by and large, have had dozens of sexual partners, a handful of long-term relationships, have paid their own rent, etcetera and so forth. Not so much with 20-year-olds.

Here's the last thing I'll say. Mandarin High School is in the wrong for taking an interest in the sex life of one of their teachers, given that the teacher has violated no law. I'm with Iowalan there. But if they MUST take an interest in their teachers' sex lives, if they had to pick one particular behavior to take issue with, banging sorority sisters would probably be my pick.
Posted by Schreiber on June 5, 2010 at 5:10 PM · Report this
173
And okay, before you seize on it, I mean one LEGAL behavior.
Posted by Schreiber on June 5, 2010 at 5:17 PM · Report this
BmuthafuckinRad 174
Allison, getting "caught trying to by dope" is a crime. Getting "caught" having a private conversation of a sexual nature with another consenting adult is like getting "caught" buying a sandwich; it's perfectly legal and something we all do every day. There is no shame in it.

My letter to his boss:

"Firing Coach Robinson based on the contents of a private communication between him and his consenting adult girlfriend teaches your students some bizarre notions of character. It fails to distinguish between standards of conduct concerning one's public role as a school employee, and the privacy of one's personal life as a private citizen. Based on Coach Robinson's firing, students will conclude that it is official policy that there is something wrong with private communications of a sexual nature between consenting adults. Yet it is the publication of the contents of those communications by a third party that is the real issue. Where is the outrage that ought to be directed at her in this case?

Any policy that treats such communications between consenting adults as something shameful, inappropriate, or wrong is absurd. It is also on some level voyeuristic. I urge you to rehire Coach Robinson at once. Doing so would teach your students about the sanctity of personal privacy and a respect for the relationships of others. It would also provide them with a stellar example of the courage that it takes to admit that one has made a mistake, and to set about righting it. That would be a real lesson in 'character.'"
Posted by BmuthafuckinRad on June 5, 2010 at 5:54 PM · Report this
175
No need to order special pee pads...just go to your local drugstore and pick up some disposable "chucks" pads. They are what old people use under their bums to protect furniture. You'll find them near the adult diapers.
Posted by kbeau on June 5, 2010 at 9:58 PM · Report this
176
I read my way through the comments on the coach's dilemma, assuming someone else would point this out. But since not...

The newspaper coverage of this event says Coach sent the naked pictures from a school computer. If true, that put a completely different spin on the school's actions. And makes the coach a stupidhead.
Posted by The Wiz on June 6, 2010 at 6:15 AM · Report this
177
@176 That's what the school is claiming but he says it wasn't a school computer. Personally I don't buy it. It'd be a lot easier to take a picture with your phone and then send it then to take a picture with your phone, send it to your email account, wait till you're at school, and then send it to your gf's phone.
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 6, 2010 at 12:08 PM · Report this
178
@172

"if they had to pick one particular behavior to take issue with, banging sorority sisters would probably be my pick"

Yeah, I gathered that but I still don't get why. It's just as possible that it would be beneficial for a 20 year old to date a 30 year old as it would be detrimental. Your comment about sexual experience is more to my point. Sex is usually going to be better when at least one person is more experienced. This whole notion that we need to frown upon a 20 year old dating a 30 year old is based on the notion that we need to protect the naive, inexperienced 20 year olds. But as far as I'm concerned if I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to an 18 year old women who decides that she wants to drive a fuel truck across Iraq then I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to a 20 year old woman with regards to who she wants to date. It there's something specific to the situation (you know the woman in question and she's exceptionally naive/makes bad decisions, you know that guy in question is an abuser, etc.) then that's different but we don't know anything like that here so I'm going to give the situation the benefit of the doubt.

"But if they MUST take an interest in their teachers' sex lives"

Except that don't have to, not at all. And if you read any of the comments in the local papers from people that actually had to deal with the principal it seems that she carries herself as a self important bee-yatch who can act anyway she wants to without reprisal. Taking the whole situation into consideration I have no problem with flooding her inbox with disgruntled emails and phone messages.
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 6, 2010 at 12:41 PM · Report this
179
Wet: if you go to any drug store they sell these under-pads for old folks who wet the bed. they come in many sizes. have a nice cotton side and are very absorbent. There are many sources (not endorsing this one): http://search.themedicalsupplydepot.com/…
Posted by bobweekend on June 6, 2010 at 5:45 PM · Report this
180
@178 You make good points, and as I've said in earlier posts, I'm not disputing that the school is in the wrong. They are. Here's the thing though. Not only are we not going to win every battle, we're also not going to actually show up and fight every battle. A new teacher was let go when I was in high school after he had an affair with another teacher's wife and I suspect the one had something to do with the other. I have a transgendered colleague who graduated from a top graduate program in education and can't find a job anywhere in the country. A history teacher in Snohomish County had his class taken away when, in place of a non-voting Taiwan, he assigned one of the students Palestine in Mock U.N. Why is Jason Robinson the one injustice out of thousands we decide to care about?

Of course the follow up question is why not? Well, I feel like the best way to picture the Jason Robinson case is as a Venn Diagram. He is safely tucked into a zone of acceptability. She is not underage, just 12 years younger and living with her mother. He's not her teacher, he's just a teacher (her sister's teacher). There is no reason to think that because he likes 20-year-old girls he might like high school seniors. Pure extrapolation. No reason to think that the reason he likes girls that age is specifically because they don't see him with the same glasses as a woman his own age might. Pure speculation. Career counselors are fond of saying that when you interview for a job, the impression you should try to give your prospective employers is "I am not going to be a problem. I am not going to create problems." Robinson works with students not much younger than his girlfriend. Is that the impression his behavior screams?

Fair or unfair, Robinson had to know that dating a student's not-much-older sister could jeopardize his job with the school. Let's go ahead and say it's unfair, that it's the product of a sexually hysterical culture, of which I'm apparently a part. Let's say that if he was a bartender instead of a teacher this would would have been a non-issue (although it's difficult to imagine how they would have met, seeing as how the girl isn't old enough to drink in a bar) and that public education isn't subject to any different standards than the service industry. Flood the principal's email account. But I doubt it will matter overly much to her. Not because she doesn't care what people think of the school, but because when it comes to Jason Robinson-esque teachers, getting flamed by Dan Savages fans is far from a worst-case scenario.
More...
Posted by Schreiber on June 7, 2010 at 10:19 AM · Report this
181
I am planning a home birth later this summer....my second, and the issue of fluids all over the house comes into play in this arena too....you can buy disposable 'Chux' pads at most surgical pharmacies - you can also make them yourself with two fabrics - PUL and terry cloth. Poke around Etsy or Homebirth sites and see if you can find someone who sells/makes these reusable pads - they come in many different sizes as well. They are perfectly water proof - portable, and washable. Good luck WET
Posted by motherhendoula on June 7, 2010 at 10:21 AM · Report this
182
I guess the short version is this: What the school did was wrong, but I can't pretend I don't understand why they did it. It's like if you get punched in the face by the boyfriend of the girl you slept with. It's against the law and that law should definitely exist. You yourself have not broken any law, nor should any such law exist. But your ass still kind of got what it deserved.
Posted by Schreiber on June 7, 2010 at 10:30 AM · Report this
183
@169

Teachers are a special class in most states (I know little of Florida law, but I'd be surprised if it was hugely different from Colorado law). They're not really at-will employees, given that (a) they are under contract, and (b) their contracts are stipulated statutorily.

There are procedures to termination, and there has to be cause for termination (cause being defined in the statutes). A private corporation can fire me for any damned reason they like. A school can't, they have to go to the board and show cause for the termination. Further, if the board violates the requirements in the statute, they face liability for the wrongful termination. My firm worked a case recently on that very subject.

That said, he quit. He wasn't forced out, fired, terminated, or any other word that means "the school got rid of him". Chances are that they offered him resignation without fuss, and probably some money, and he took it. He (I will repeat) was not terminated, he quit voluntarily.

That kind of limits his ability to bitch and moan about it. If he'd fought the good fight, I'd be behind him all the way, but he decided that it wasn't worth it.

@178

Boy, I'm really tired of the trite "if this age group is old enough to go to war, they must be mature enough to drink/drive/vote/sleep around". You assume there's some inherent reason and logic in giving the benefit of the doubt (in terms of mental capacity) when a young adult joins the military, but that's an unproved assumption.

Hell, I'll make the opposite argument. Young adults are really, really, stupid. If you can claim any form of maturity or overwhelming logic and reason at 20 (or even 25), you're a damned liar. We're all idiots in our youth, and the fact that society allows us to make some really dumb decisions (drinking too much, driving too fast, getting crabs, going to war) doesn't make it a moral imperative to allow us to make every stupid decision we can think of.

You want to begin the conversation with the assumption that all young adults are fundamentally responsible and reasonable, so it would take an exception to the rule to make someone naive enough about sexuality to make protecting them necessary. I proceed from the opposite assumption: teens and young adults are phenomenal idiots, who need to prove exceptional responsibility and reason before I'll trust them not to be taken advantage of.

Your arguments about sex being better are irrelevant to the question of whether we assume that a 32-year-old teacher who would screw a twenty-year-old, lacks the kind of moral certitude to teach sixteen- seventeen- and eighteen-year-olds.

Lemme put it this way, if I must:

In my state (Colorado) anyone up to the age of twenty-five may have sex (legally) with anyone over the age of fifteen. A twenty-five-year-old can screw a fifteen-year-old (let that sink in for a moment). If I became a teacher, and decided to date/fuck a fifteen-year-old (not one of my students, no one who went to my school), would you accept it with the same air of "it's all good"?

If yes, that's fine. But I doubt even Dan would accept my example as being a fine thing for a schoolteacher to do. If your answer is (as I suspect it is) "no", I'd like to know why. Is the only difference that the teacher in question here is fucking a girl who is (just barely) old enough not to be a student? Is 32-20 inherently less creepy than 25-15? Why? How do you accept one and not the other without being hypocritical?
More...
Posted by Seldon2639 on June 7, 2010 at 10:43 AM · Report this
184
@Everyone talking about Jason Robinson

Sorry for the double-post, but this seems kind of important.

Can anyone get the straight dope on whether he was actually terminated (wrongfully or not), or whether he was "forced to quit"? I've read both versions, and it seems like everyone is using the term "fired" interchangeably with "forced to quit", which have very different meanings legally.

Anyone know what really happened?
Posted by Seldon2639 on June 7, 2010 at 10:52 AM · Report this
HellboundAlleee 185
He's not abstaining from dick in vagina for religious reasons. He's abstaining because of a bullshit idea of morality instilled in him by parents or just his own weird rationalizations. He wants a way to not be telling a lie to his parents. It's an interesting idiotic god these people worship. One that's shriveled up and mostly dead, and likes the occasional card, like Gramma, so she can show her friends and complain that he doesn't visit enough.
Posted by HellboundAlleee http://hellboundalleee.blogspot.com on June 7, 2010 at 3:37 PM · Report this
186
I'm not defending what the mother did, but everyone's assumption that the daughter legally owns the phone bothers me?

I'm not a lawyer so I don't know how the question of ownership would be resolved. However, if my employer provides me with a cell phone (or computer for that matter) and pays the monthly fee/charges then there would be no question about who owned the phone and therefore no expectation of or legal right to privacy. It is less clear where a parent buys a phone and service is covered by the parents plan. I don't even know if this applies in this case, but I do know a lot of parents who do this even with kids who have graduated from college. I don't know what legal liability the parents would have for how the phone is used (think drug dealing or kiddie porn for that matter) if they are the owners of record.

According to this link, the coach was not fired or quit, despite what the reporter said.
The school district chose not to offer him a contract for the next school year (symantics maybe, but they are within their legal rights to do so and they have no legal obligation to provide any explanation. It happens all the time for all sorts of reasons including the when the principal doesn't like someone).

indyposted.com/.../sexting-gets-florida-…;

One thing I question about the post is the statement about the football coach, coaching his girlfriend's 17 year old sister. If true, this guy is just plain stupid.




Posted by a skeptic and a cynic on June 7, 2010 at 4:14 PM · Report this
187
@186

I doubt the 17-year-old sister is running tight end for Mandarin Varsity, but it's probably a good thing that a teacher at a school is considered all the students' "teacher" in this particular context. "No ma'am, Ashley was never actually in my AP Physics class!" feels a little flimsy to me.

I know I must be coming across as a flip-flopper here, but you lose me when you start harping on what images were on whose computer and when and why. To my mind, no amount of discretion can excuse an inappropriate relationship and no amount of indiscretion can indict an appropriate one (note "appropriate" vs. "legal" here).
Posted by Schreiber on June 7, 2010 at 5:25 PM · Report this
188
BTW, for the sake of argument (and it is a fun one), let's pretend Robinson did not coach football, but the women's swim team. No impact at all on how that would or should affect the administration's take on the situation?
Posted by Schreiber on June 7, 2010 at 5:29 PM · Report this
189
@187 You missed my point, I was addressing the general indignation about the parents invasion of their daughter's privacy. If (and it is a huge if) the parents legally own the cellphone then they had every legal right to see what was on the cellphone (although I question the morality of their actions). There is no expectation/right of privacy when using someone else's property.

Scarcasm and derision intended. I don't know if anyone else has made this point, but losing a cellphone (or having it stolen) is not uncommon. Anyone who has anything embarrassing or confidential on one is a fool. Security is a joke unless you are paying an arm and a leg for it. While a 20 year old may not know any better, a presumably college educated 32 year old teacher should, but then again we are talking about an aging jock who is probably clueless (Joey Buttafuoco comes to mind, but I'm not sure if he was a jock or just a greaser). Some people really shouldn't be allowed loose without adult supervision even if they are technically an adult. We wouldn't be having this discussion if either the coach or his girlfriend had any common sense.
Posted by a skeptic and a cynic on June 7, 2010 at 9:49 PM · Report this
190
WET - you can also try this midwive's trick: make the bed with a fitted sheet. Put down a mattress protector like a shower curtain. Put down another fitted sheet. When you're all done, just take off the top sheet and the mattress protector and you've got a nice, cozy, dry bed waiting for you.
Posted by Ponderosa on June 8, 2010 at 8:56 AM · Report this
191
1. WAFFLER's girlfriend should dump him. Period.

2. I hope that male coach sues the pants off not just the school, but his girlfriend's mother.

Although I recommend him NOT to date someone not old enough to drink--especially someone whose MOMMY still monitors her computer usage. I'd say that's definitely not mature enough. Think with your brain, coach--not the other part. Don't follow Nicholas Cage's path.

And yes, Allison M., you will and should be flamed.
Posted by SheQuon on June 8, 2010 at 11:17 AM · Report this
192
@180

"Why is Jason Robinson the one injustice out of thousands we decide to care about?"

You don't have to choose to care about one over the other, it's possible to care about all of those things but that's not the point. The specific situation here is mute, it's the principle and that principle is that I (and many people here AND in the town this transpired in) don't think that someone should be fired/have they contracts non-renewed solely b/c the teacher engaged in a consensual, completely legal activity that the principal doesn't agree with and I, personally, am going to go to bat for anyone who falls into that category regardless of my personal feelings of the situation.

For example; I have no interest whatsoever in participating in a "Tea Party" rally or becoming a tea party activist or any of that stupid shit HOWEVER if someone did participate in one and didn't get their contract renewed specifically b/c they had (without any consideration of their work performance) then I'd go to bat for them too. In the same way that I feel that everyone should have free speech, not just people that I agree with, and I'll defend someone else's freedom of speech regardless of how onerous I find that speech to be. If you give a pass on situations you don't agree with personally it makes it MUCH harder to make your case on situation you do agree with. Moreover, it's the situations that you don't agree with that really define where you stand on an issue which makes it MORE important to stand up at those times.

"A new teacher was let go when I was in high school after he had an affair with another teacher's wife and I suspect the one had something to do with the other...etc."

And I'll go to bat for them in each of those situations (assuming there wasn't a specific breach of contract.) What makes this different (and why Dan posted it) is this is part of a trend of prying into teachers lives and firing them for legal activity. Email Dan the specifics of those situations and I wouldn't be surprised if did a post about them and we can all rally in defense there too.

"Not because she doesn't care what people think of the school, but because when it comes to Jason Robinson-esque teachers, getting flamed by Dan Savages fans is far from a worst-case scenario. "

You can make the say the same thing with regards to Constance McMillan. In her specific situation it didn't help her avoid getting hosed by the school but, once again, this misses the point. The idea is to let school administrators that they no longer work in a vacuum and hopefully the next administrator will think twice about administrating based on their morality instead of performance.
More...
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 8, 2010 at 12:09 PM · Report this
193
@189

"but losing a cellphone (or having it stolen) is not uncommon"

Yes and disseminating information on a lost/stolen cell phone is illegal and can net you some jail time.

http://www.tabloidcolumn.com/paris-hilto…

As to how much privacy can be expected if her parents were paying for it is an interesting case for the courts to decide.
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 8, 2010 at 12:13 PM · Report this
194
@183

"That said, he quit. He wasn't forced out, fired, terminated, or any other word that means "the school got rid of him". Chances are that they offered him resignation without fuss, and probably some money, and he took it."

Wrong. He was removed from his duties, barred from campus, and his contract wasn't renewed.

"If you can claim any form of maturity or overwhelming logic and reason at 20 (or even 25), you're a damned liar."

So your suggestion is.....what exactly? Redefine "adult" to be 25? And you missed the point; of course young adults make stupid decisions (as do old adults) but at the age of 18 it's assumed that you're old enough to take responsibility for your decisions. Yes, lots of young adults are going to make stupid decisions but many are going to make excellent decision and making stupid decisions and then "paying the piper" is how you learn to make good decision. And btw, if you think that you miraculously start making excellent decisions at 25+ then you're a damn liar.

"If I became a teacher, and decided to date/fuck a fifteen-year-old (not one of my students, no one who went to my school), would you accept it with the same air of "it's all good"?"

If that's the law then that's the law. If you don't like the law (which it seems like you don't) then you should do something to change it instead of just bitching about how bad the law is and then do nothing about it. Trying to do something about it is exactly what I do when faced with a regional/state law that I find objectionable and if decide to NOT do anything about it then I shut the fuck up.

Posted by bassplayerguy on June 8, 2010 at 12:29 PM · Report this
195
@188

"let's pretend Robinson did not coach football, but the women's swim team. No impact at all on how that would or should affect the administration's take on the situation?"

No. If the administration has a problem with that as a concept then they can put it in the contract that "no teacher over the age of....shall date non-students under the age of........if they coach an opposite sex such and such."
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 8, 2010 at 12:32 PM · Report this
196
WET: ShamWow!
Posted by Suggestion Author on June 8, 2010 at 1:43 PM · Report this
XiaoGui17 197
"she took his desperate suggestion at face value and did something she knew was the wrong thing to do."

Exactly how is calling someone's bluff automatically the wrong thing to do? Kudos to this woman for calling this douche out on his bullshit!
Posted by XiaoGui17 on June 8, 2010 at 2:03 PM · Report this
198
And so is identity theft, but it happens every day. Law enforcement can't prevent it and doesn't have the resources to identify and prosecute the guilty or even the jurisdiction since a lot of it originates overseas in places that don't like US. Just how much time and effort do you think would have been expended if Paris Hilton hadn't been rich and (in)famous?
Posted by a skeptic and a cynic on June 8, 2010 at 5:11 PM · Report this
199
@195 Interesting suggestion, but then I suppose the administration's contract should probably also read"A teacher who completed an M.E. and a B.A. concurrently and is only 23 years old can still date his 20-year-old girlfriend. Maybe his 19-year-old girlfriend too, but only if she has, you know, 'life experience,' etc."

My point is, not all inappropriate behavior can be explicated and delineated in a contract and it's silly to think it can.
Posted by Schreiber on June 8, 2010 at 5:12 PM · Report this
200
@198

Well we're in luck! We know EXACTLY who went into the phone and disseminated the pictures; the GF's mother. *whew* That was a close one.
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 8, 2010 at 5:19 PM · Report this
201
@199

And my point is that if you're going to have an arbitrary set of "inappropriate behaviors" that will prohibit you from continued employment then they should spell out exactly what it is so you can avoid said behaviors and keep your job. If 32 is too old to date a 20 year old and will cost you your job but (I'm assuming) that 20 is ok to date a 20 year old then should figure out exactly at what age the "inappropriateness" begins IF it's going to cost someone their job (although I still maintain that it was the video and not the age that prompted the "non-renewal.")
Posted by bassplayerguy on June 8, 2010 at 5:26 PM · Report this
202
@200

I don't particularly like defending Mandarin High School. Though they didn't break the law, they took private information about the coach's sex life and determined that he should not have his job any more. It crosses an ethical boundary that I myself would not cross. Let's stop to ask why they did it.

Maybe you're right and the principal is just a total "beee-yatch" who likes to throw her weight around. Maybe it was a short-term move to placate the 20-year-old's unhinged mother and prevent a shitstorm that would have lasted maybe a year and probably have no effect on the school in the grand scheme.

There's a third possibility. Mandarin High School could have decided that having had someone bring the coach's proclivity for younger women to their attention would prove to be catastrophic down the road if he ever DID do anything illegal or in violation of his contract, like, oh, sleep with a high school student. The public would see a pattern, whether it was there to be seen or not. Think that scene in Jaws ("You knew! And you kept the beaches open anyway!") I imagine Mandarin High School didn't particularly want to know who the coach was banging or how or why and would have been perfectly happy not knowing. But the mom went ahead and told them. And in this day and age, knowing is enough. We don't just go after pedophile priests. We go after the men of the cloth who fail to turn them in. We don't just go after senators for sending their aides dirty IMs. We go after the Speaker of the House who tries to cover it up.

Are any of these examples particularly analogous to Jason Robinson? No, not really. If he did wind up sleeping with a high school kid, it would be because he chose to break the law presumably for the first time. From a law and a public policy standpoint, the one will have nothing to do with the other. But this is the age we're living in. Outrage over an unrenewed contract doesn't outweigh the possibility of a predatory coach who you "knew" about it but kept employed anyway. That's kind of just reality.
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Posted by Schreiber on June 8, 2010 at 6:02 PM · Report this
203
Should Mandarin High School have taken the risk? Sure, in my opinion. Should they have been legally bound to take the risk? That's a tougher question, and not nearly as straightforward in my mind as whether Constance McMillen should have been allowed to go to prom in a tuxedo with her girlfriend.
Posted by Schreiber on June 8, 2010 at 6:18 PM · Report this
204
Precisely. Just because it was illegal didn't stop the mom and do you really think any jury in Florida that included parents would convict her. The parents would be more likely to give her a standing ovation. Can you say jury nullification (i.e. O J)

Say he was a PE teacher (many coaches are), how many nerds would sell their souls (or unused parts of their anatomy) to be able post the pictures on the Internet and the smarts not to get caught at it. So much easier to upload something anonymously than do a hack. Gee look what I found on the net. Or ones the GF dissed in high school or college.
Posted by a skeptic and a cynic on June 8, 2010 at 6:48 PM · Report this
Bluejean Baby 205
@ 22 - i totally agree about any kind of sexual weirdness increasing with the passage of time (i speak from experience). Religion aside, if the bf is not fucking her NOW, he will find all sorts of excuses after they are married to not fuck her. She should move on. BTW, I know of no religion that ok's all sex except penetration. WAFFLER must think we just fell off the turnip truck yesterday.

To do with the teacher-student relationship, they should have known that theirs was a "special" type of relationship, so they also should have known that sending dirty pics over the internet is a no-no between a teacher and ANY student. That being said, still, a person's cell phone is their own property, not the property of a nosey mom. The nosey mom had no right to snoop, and even less right to forward the pics to anyone! I don't understand why people don't use phone codes (locks) on their cell phones so that no one else can access their phone. That said, the mom is in the wrong, for sure.

Posted by Bluejean Baby on June 9, 2010 at 8:45 AM · Report this
206
Although the following story is not precisely the same situation, it's good the coach wasn't in S.C. where they apparently take things far more seriously.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37589451/ns/…
Posted by a skeptic and a cynic on June 9, 2010 at 11:55 AM · Report this
Andreas375 207
What's great about the WAFFLER one is imagining what is going on inside his head. What does he think is going to happen once he finds a bride and penetrates her vaginally? Jesus is going to jump out of her vagina with multi-colored pinwheels blowing in the wind with a marching band to serenade them both? I don't get that at all. Religion.. I think that the only "religion" this cat is worshipping is the kind who prefers not to dabble in vagina. But then, it's different for everyone, isn't it? It makes me sad that others will bend to the will of others at the genuine expense of their own soul. You are what you are, and some people cannot, or won't, accept that. Even in and of themselves as they more or less condemn you for not fitting their vision of who you should be. Religion just destroys people more than they realize. The WAFFLER guy should find a Jesus lick-on tattoo (or create one) and put it on his current chick of choice. If he should settle down with a beard, I mean, a broad ;) , then he can opt for a permanent memento of her newly-minted and christened Jesus Pussay! Go with The Devil and get some dick WAFFLER! Jesus said it was a good idea. I just got off the phone with him. He sends his love ;) .
Posted by Andreas375 on June 9, 2010 at 1:07 PM · Report this
208
@120: Gloria: I agree: @92 ROCKS!!!!
Posted by auntie grizelda on June 10, 2010 at 12:30 AM · Report this
209
in my teacher's contract, i'm not allowed to be with someone under the age of 21, because that is the oldest one of my students could technically be. i wonder if their contract has anything like that?
Posted by mellythepirate on June 13, 2010 at 6:51 PM · Report this
210
I am currently dating and about to dump a WAFFLER. He eats pussy, he fingers, gets head but thinks saving his penis for Jesus will bring him closer to heaven.

I have doubted myself more in this relationship than any before. 3 years later, I have had so many sexual "breakdowns" that I put myself more at risk with a virgin than if I had just dated someone else.

I suggest he find a woman who is more compatible with his choice and let her find someone who can fulfill her needs.

I also think men like this only get worse and less able to perform as they age.
People's interpretations of religions are so twisted.
Posted by Naoki9 on June 14, 2010 at 5:03 PM · Report this
bunckycrack 211
sounds like WET needs a roll of brawny......u know the quicker picker upper
Posted by bunckycrack on June 16, 2010 at 9:40 AM · Report this
tubgem 212
Yes! Stefon! "Human bath mats... It's that thing of when midgets with dreadlocks lay face-down on the floor!"
Posted by tubgem on June 16, 2010 at 12:49 PM · Report this
Spikeygrrl 213
Thanks for the heads-up, Dan; I have just sent a SUPPORTIVE letter to Principal Donna Richardson. Ms. Richardson, as well as the outraged parents, are to be commended for refusing to knuckle under to the way today's sick "hook-up culture" is spreading downward -- BY EXAMPLE! -- to our high schools and even our middle schools.

It is true that Coach and Grrrltoy "did nothing illegal" -- FOR CONSENTING ADULTS -- but people who work with kids on a daily basis can (and IMO, must) be held to a higher standard, beacuse until young people develop their own stable moral framework (typically in their late 20s) it's all too often simply monkey see, monkey do. It is highly unlikely that Coach would have been fired for this behavior had he been an auto mechanic, a chef, an industrial designer, or any other occupation that does not directly and with regularity impact the social and moral development of our young people!

@71: "It doesn't matter whether or not mommy pays for college. She has no right to snoop through her daughter's phone. She lost that right as soon as daughter dearest turned 18. If my mom would have done something like that I would have found my own way to pay for college and told her exactly where to go."

What planet did you grow up on??? Obviously not this one, where "My house, my rules" is S.O.P. You say, with pride, that you'd have left your mother's house and supported yourself if she had "invaded your privacy" in this fashion. In the words of Amy Alkon: GROW UP AND GROW A PAIR. The time to leave and support yourself is when you've decided that in the near term you thoroughly intend to do things contra House Rules. Doing prohibited things anyway on the DL, then waiting until you're busted to storm out in high dudgeon, only proves you are/were still too interpersonally immature to live on your own anyway.

(p.s. I am a teacher/mentor of gifted & talented teens and young adults, a position in which one MUST lead by example, even when that means forgoing entirely -- both on AND OFF the job clock -- a good many of the more exotic adult pastimes. Anyone who can't stand to make that simple sacrifice should pick a different career already!)
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Posted by Spikeygrrl on June 19, 2010 at 12:50 PM · Report this
214
on the clit size thing; the horrific (to me) thing is that in the US if your doctor believes that your daughter's clitoris is too large at an early age they're likely to refer you to a pediatric urologist for clitoral reduction surgery ;-( There's an ethics case in the making with one consultant who tests the results by bringing the girls back annually to see if they can feel various forms of stimulation.

http://www.thehastingscenter.org/Bioethi…
Posted by SnarkMaiden on June 20, 2010 at 6:53 PM · Report this
215
For squirters who don't want to drop the cash on a Fascinator Throe: waterproof plastic drop cloths, normally used for protecting floors and furniture while painting, are about 3 bucks for a pack of three at the hardware stores in my area. You make the bed with a fitted sheet, slap one down, put another cheap fitted sheet that you don't care about messing up on top, squirt to your heart's content, then peel the wet sheet and drop cloth off and go to sleep on a nice, dry sheet.
Posted by lyn77 on July 1, 2010 at 10:26 AM · Report this
kickapoogirl 216
Just LOVE reading these archives!
As to WET- I was in a three some years back with a bragging squirter, saying it was her gspot. I can tell you this, it was urine. Two different substances. If you're having that problem, you might try, when peeing before sex, digitally playing with your eurethra opening, WET. Takes a little practice, but you can make yourself completely void your bladder. Reduces the "stress incontinence", when you are sqeezing and cumming your brain out. Worth a try. :)
Dan Savage Rocks!
Posted by kickapoogirl on January 28, 2013 at 9:25 PM · Report this

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