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Ken and Ben

September 2, 2010

Here's my problem: I love women. The way they look, move, and sound. But the idea of actually interacting with women absolutely fucking terrifies me. I'm a virgin at 30. I've never had a girlfriend. I've never been on a date. I've never even had a conversation with a woman that lasted longer than a couple of minutes.

I cannot even imagine approaching a woman and asking her out on a date. And no woman has ever even shown interest from what I could tell. Sex workers are out of the question because I don't want to risk some asshole cop busting me. Webcam sites are pretty much the only way I interact with women. Got a piece of advice for me?

Awkward And Alone

I've actually got two pieces of advice for you, AAA.

First piece: Get your ass to a shrink—maybe a lady shrink—who can help you with your near-crippling sexual anxiety and maybe toss some meds your way.

Second piece: Hire a fucking sex worker, AAA—just don't fuck her. Paid companionship is not a crime—there's nothing illegal about paying an escort to escort you places. Rent a nice woman and have a nice conversation. If you like her, make another appointment, have another conversation. Cops—asshole or otherwise—only bust men when they offer money in exchange for sex, AAA, so don't offer money for sex, or accept her offer to have money for sex, and you won't get busted. And cops working undercover to bust johns don't make follow-up appointments or build ongoing relationships with clients. So if a woman sees you more than once—or twice, to be extra safe—she's not a cop.

Is everyone in the Republican Party a closeted homosexual?

Ken Mehlman's Out Now

Everyone except Ken Mehlman and Ben Quayle.

I am a straight and, dare I say it, vanilla woman who met a straight man who somewhat reminds me of Clark Kent. He's mild-mannered, good-looking, an all-around great guy, just like Clark Kent—and just like Superman, he likes to wear tights. It ends up that he likes to be dominated, spanked, and buttfucked—and crossdress. Our sexual encounters are a bit different for me, to say the least, but I like spanking him, humiliating him, tying him up, and watching him try on panties (in which he looks darn good!). It's all rather exciting!

Does this mean that I'm a dominatrix? Would I act this way with other men, or is it just him? And finally, where do I go from here?

Being Deviant Satisfies Me

A dominatrix? That's a professional title, BDSM, and you're not planning to pursue a career in kink. To determine if you're genuinely and independently kinky and not just getting off on beating and binding the boyfriend because he gets off on it, you'll just have to beat and bind someone else sometime. As for where you go from here, BDSM, if you're in San Francisco or you can get there for a weekend, you might wanna sign up for Forte Femme, a weekend-long "sensual dominance intensive" hosted by kink superstar/supernova Midori. More info at

I'm a GGG 38-year-old single woman, longtime reader, first-time writer.

1. What is a cream pie?

2. Do you find it weird to be turned on by getting fondled up and aroused into sex while sleeping? I have a hard time communicating to partners that I want this! Can you give communication assistance so I don't sound so freaky?

Freak In Phoenix

1. Google "cream pie." The first three results are relevant; the fourth ("Banana Cream Pie: Recipe") is not.

2. Your kink, FIP, barely moves the needle on my kink-o-meter. If you're having a hard time communicating your interest in fondled-while-asleep sex, just memorize this: "I enjoy getting fondled up while sleeping."

Poopnoodle. I heard this word for the first time today. I was told that a poopnoodle is what happens when you pee right after fucking someone hard in the ass. Poop gets stuck up in the dick hole and comes out in the form of a noodle when you piss. Is this something that actually happens, and if so, can you deem "poopnoodle" the official Savage Love term?

Couldn't Think Of An Acronym That Spelled Out "Poopnoodle"

If what you describe had ever actually happened to anyone, anywhere, ever, "poopnoodle" could be the official Savage Love term for it. But the poopnoodle never actually happens.

If your middle-school friends don't believe me, CTOAATSOP, here's what you should do: Go get a couple tubs of premade chocolate frosting. Refrigerate until firm. Get your dicks hard. Fuck your tubs of premade frosting. Fuck them hard. Fuck them like they've been bad. Then go take a piss. You will not produce a chocolatefrostingnoodle. I promise you.

And think about it, CTOAATSOP: Butt-fuckers fuck butt until they come. Wouldn't coming dislodge the poopnoodle?

Finally, some general advice for anyone out there who's interested in anal but now, thanks to CTOAATSOP here, fears the poopnoodle: Wear a condom. A condom can protect you from the fictional poopnoodle and the actual HIV.

I am disturbd by naked pic bribing you admittd & encouraged in yr last column. It reveals yr favoritism & yr corruptd nature! You dont need critics to discredit yr "advice." you done it yrslf. You are Mr Sanctimoney!


I am disturbd by yr splling.

But I cannot tell a lie: Enclosing a nude pic—good nude, bad nude, boy nude, girl nude—does get my attention. It won't automatically get a letter into the column, however. I could run nothing but letters from readers who enclosed pics, week-in, week-out, 52 weeks a year. But the letter from the guy in his early 30s who lost his virginity that appeared in last week's column—the dude who enclosed pics—was the first letter from a pic-encloser that I've used in ages. So cut me some slack.

That said, the odd pic or two—doesn't even have to be you—brightens the day and lightens the workload. So pics are always welcome.

And if you don't like it, 509, I suppose you could file charges with the professional body that governs my so-called profession... if there were a professional body that governed my so-called profession. But there isn't, poopnoodle, so suck it, take pics, and send 'em in.


Comments (113) RSS

Oldest First Unregistered On Registered On Add a comment
Fear the poopnoodle!
Posted by MelvinGlover on August 31, 2010 at 6:47 PM · Report this
Kind of a flippant column this week, but then the questions were unusually inane (or pathetically sad, like AAA).

Perhaps Dan's selections are an expression of some job frustration? I speculate that most of the questions Dan receives are idiotic and/or depressing, so grouping a selection of them in one column lets us see the kind of stupidity and pathos he has to wade (or slog) through.

Chin up, Dan! Your job is still more fun than most.
Posted by Functional Atheist on August 31, 2010 at 6:58 PM · Report this
maybe "poopnoodle" should be the next SL neologism for someone who harps on or is worried about non-existent bodily myths.
Posted by empty on August 31, 2010 at 7:13 PM · Report this
mike in oly 4
Sometimes being flippant and sarcastic can make it all fun while still conveying good info and/or advice, which each of these answers did, IMO.
Posted by mike in oly on August 31, 2010 at 7:55 PM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 5
AAA's letter made me wonder:

If an undercover cop, posing as an escort, is hired and no sex is involved, where does the money end up going? Does the undercover cop get to keep it? Does it go back to the person who paid it? To the police coffers? The escort agency?
Posted by Urgutha Forka on August 31, 2010 at 8:04 PM · Report this
i LOVED the response to poopnoodle boy; i sent it to my mom and sis! and i enjoyed further use of the term "poopnoodle" in the next letter, too - i liked the column :)
Posted by maro on August 31, 2010 at 8:15 PM · Report this
i think i'm still gonna call people poopnoodles, despite their being a terrible myth. im in an arts program, poopnoodles are thick on the ground
Posted by sallybobally on August 31, 2010 at 8:34 PM · Report this
8 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
@5, my brother is a cop in statewide drug enforcement (btw, he thinks pot should be legal and taxed), and when they seize money they use it to fund the force. I imagine it's the same thing with escort money.
Posted by answerwoman on August 31, 2010 at 9:19 PM · Report this
AAA, you may want to take the Autism-Spectrum Quotient test:…

Not every guy who's a 30-year-old, awkward, gf-less virgin has Asperger's Syndrome....but some do. The results may help you understand yourself in ways you don't right now. Also, listen to Dan's advice - he's absolutely right.
Posted by wtfwjd on August 31, 2010 at 9:45 PM · Report this
According to Urban Dictionary, poop noodle (two words) is an already existing term for this fictional act.
Posted by i like mine with pesto on August 31, 2010 at 10:11 PM · Report this
buddspal 12
zomfg- 12th!

poopnoodle- i do not underatnd you dumbshit kids these days

AAA- do you have normal conversations with guys? could be you are gay. test the theory, embrace homosexuality just for a bit, it might be the right fit for you.

FIP- go to a frat party, find a bed, have a nap. you'll have a gang-fondle in no time flat

fondling- ooh yeah!
Posted by buddspal on August 31, 2010 at 10:51 PM · Report this
buddspal 13
zomfg- 12th!

poopnoodle- i do not understand you dumbshit kids these days

AAA- do you have normal conversations with guys? could be you are gay. test the theory, embrace homosexuality just for a bit, it might be the right fit for you.

FIP- go to a frat party, find a bed, have a nap. you'll have a gang-fondle in no time flat

fondling- ooh yeah!
Posted by buddspal on August 31, 2010 at 10:59 PM · Report this
I would also advise AAA to try talking to women he's NOT attracted to. Make some female friends. They won't turn into dates, but that's not the point. First of all, if he's not attracted to her he'll have less reason to be anxious so it's a way to practice whatever little social skills he does have. Also, he needs to learn that women are people too. His new female friends might be able to give him some insights he can use later when he starts communicating with women he is attracted to.
Posted by Diagoras on August 31, 2010 at 11:11 PM · Report this
Rach3l 15
I like this style of column. Answering a ton of questions with short answers is better IMO than the three long replies you tend to do every week.

Keep it up! The bing bang boom style will keep me coming back :)
Posted by Rach3l on August 31, 2010 at 11:15 PM · Report this
@10 - good for you. I was thinking the same thing.
Posted by nyker on September 1, 2010 at 1:21 AM · Report this
I loved your reply to that guy who asked you a while ago what GFE stands for: Google fucking exists!
Posted by tiare on September 1, 2010 at 2:19 AM · Report this
Dear Freak In Phoenix,

Here's a really good link on what a cream pie is.
Posted by TheGirlWithTheKnowHow on September 1, 2010 at 3:52 AM · Report this
I just fondled my wife while she was sleeping and got kicked out of bed with a growl. Now I'm on the computer, what a coincedence! I posted at 4:50 am. mtn. When did people have time to make 17 entries?
Posted by scorpio of Id. on September 1, 2010 at 3:56 AM · Report this
God, I really wish I could remember to not read Dan's column during breakfast. That's two poopnoodle-induced gags in my coffee this week!
Posted by absurdfiction on September 1, 2010 at 4:13 AM · Report this
"Would I act this way with other men, or is it just him?"

Let's ask the WHAT IF machine!
Posted by Gloria on September 1, 2010 at 4:39 AM · Report this
I am supposed to be finishing my novella this morning and instead I keep laughing and telling my dog to fear the poopnoodle.

Fear it! Fear the poopnoodle!

Now I gotta figure out how to work fucking a tub of frosting into said novella.
Posted by KathleenD on September 1, 2010 at 5:05 AM · Report this
quote from @9 - "@5, my brother is a cop in statewide drug enforcement....when they seize money they use it to fund the force."

This is one of the main reasons why pot remains illegal.
Posted by Barbara on September 1, 2010 at 5:29 AM · Report this
Mike in MO 24
FIP: better yet, search Google videos for creampie. Or for even more fun, add "gangbang" or "multiple". I want 4ths!

Also, I can think of nothing hotter than fondling someone out of slumber. Say it out loud & odds are your SO will be thrilled to have a green light.

Finally: A condom can protect you from the fictional poopnoodle and the actual HIV...brilliant!
Posted by Mike in MO on September 1, 2010 at 6:21 AM · Report this
#2: you're right in that the letters this week are inane, but wrong in saying that that's unusual

however, #19's comment did make me LOL.
Posted by wayne on September 1, 2010 at 6:36 AM · Report this
As a 30-year-old virgin myself, the advice to hire a sex worker isn't very helpful. Men want to feel desired too; there's nothing lamer than having an attractive woman flirt with you, and then finding out that she was just interested in your money, or free drinks, or scaring off some other guy, or getting you to fix her computer. How is it going to build self-confidence to know that once his $500 are up, she's going to ditch him and forget he exists?

Dan's advice about seeing a shrink, sadly, is probably correct - although there's a limit to what medications can do in place of self-confidence. Otherwise, I think @14 has it right; AAA needs to do this the hard way. I've found it much easier to ask for dating advice from female friends; just make sure they're not going to gossip to all of their friends about the 30-year-old virgin they know.
Posted by Nate on September 1, 2010 at 6:52 AM · Report this
The last guy who said to me as a blanket statement, "I love women," turned out to be a raging horndog whose only interest in me was as a cum sponge. AAA doesn't seem predatory but he's equally out of touch with women as human beings rather than as (unobtainable) objects of desire. Yes, he should try being FRIENDS with a woman, or just having some friends, period. Maybe he should try to BE a good friend to someone instead of thinking only about himself and his shyness.

I have to say that I find dating as a goal-oriented activity to be a horrendous bore, but having good friends who sometimes turn into love interests is not.
Posted by hazmat on September 1, 2010 at 7:13 AM · Report this
Even the most fervent Dan supporters among us would have to admit, whether intended or a happy consequence of poor spelling, "Mr Sanctimoney" is a pretty damn humorous sobriquet for Mr. Snarkage.
Posted by Yojimbo on September 1, 2010 at 7:14 AM · Report this
@19: My spouse did it gently, without waking me and I had the most erotic dreams!
Then, this morning, the morning wood did not go to waste!
Posted by been there and back again on September 1, 2010 at 7:48 AM · Report this
I think that's really hot, Clark Kent/Superman opening himself up like that to share in some risque' things with him..

Are you a "dominatrix" as such?
You're just one guy's dream come true apparently ;-) (Well done, and enjoy your adventurous action together!)
Posted by Beautiful Voodoo on September 1, 2010 at 7:53 AM · Report this
AAA: even if you have no intention (for whatever reason) of losing your virginity to a sex worker, going out with one a few times might be very useful (particularly if you *are* an Aspie--that is, someone with some degree of Asperger's or a similar disorder) as, essentially, a practice date.

The same might hold true (probably for less money) if you have a no-possibility-of-going-anywhere female friend (lesbian, happily married, whatever). Aspies in particular can be freaked out or upset by a completely "new" situation, so a low-pressure dress rehearsal, especially with someone willing to (gently) critique you afterward, can be invaluable.

Also, when you do feel ready for the real thing, you might try dating someone of a geekish persuasion. Even if she is not herself an Aspie, she's probably used to dealing with them (there is a significant overlap between sets), so she's less likely to be upset or freak out or otherwise reject you if you're a little awkward. Standard be-an-interesting-person advice applies, of course, but geeks often have somewhat different standards of "interesting", too.
Posted by Melissa Trible on September 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM · Report this
You have to start by having conversations with women. This is NOT just a sex thing. This is a life thing. This could be a career thing. You've got to be able to talk to women because they're half the world.

Before you look into paying an escort, I'd actually try having conversations with women. Not picking up girls -- talk to your co-workers. Talk to your friends' girlfriends.

(If indeed it's "talking to women" that's your problem. From your letter I wasn't sure if you were exaggerating and you just freeze up when you see a woman you might be interested in. If it's that, then I guess do what I did -- screw up your courage, say some ridiculous thing, learn to do better next time. I actually asked the same guy out three times and the third time was the start of an incredible relationship. So mistakes really are the portals of discovery.)
Posted by drizzle89 on September 1, 2010 at 8:03 AM · Report this
samanthaf63 33
One of my ex-boyfriends was big on the "alarm cock" wakeup, as we used to call it. Great way to start the day, refreshed and ready for work with a blush on the cheeks and sparkle in the eye.

But not once have I ever considered that anything but vanilla. I always thought it was sort of de rigueur - whoever woke up first got the party rolling.
Posted by samanthaf63 on September 1, 2010 at 8:10 AM · Report this
to #5

Police stings don't work that way. The person responding to an ad for an escort (be it on CL, BackPage, etc.) is arrested generally upon arrival at the meeting location, as the ads are generally explicit enough that LE can charge you for even responding to the ad in person.

Stings involving street prostitutes work differently, in that the undercover police officer will absolutely not get in the John's vehicle, ever. Generally they obtain PC by repeatedly asking you "What do you want to do?" and "How much do you have?".
Posted by Eatatmoes on September 1, 2010 at 8:22 AM · Report this
samanthaf63 35
Don't worry, Dan, I promise not to send any nudie pix of my 46-year-old female body. I realize that is a very specialized taste that is worlds away from your palate!
Posted by samanthaf63 on September 1, 2010 at 8:29 AM · Report this
Ok, that poopnoodle thing was the most ridiculous craziness, ever - how could anyone even think that could happen?? Omg. Like, how dumb do you have to be?? I'm positive that Dan only ran that inane letter to call the dumb-speller "poopnoodle," which of course, I'm totally going to use, now. Excellent.
Posted by Jenn on September 1, 2010 at 8:34 AM · Report this
I think "poopnoodle" should be the term for someone like Ken Mehlman -- a turd that comes out long after he's already fucked people over.
Posted by Neologisms are fun on September 1, 2010 at 9:43 AM · Report this
shuvoff 38
Ask working ladies for private dances and nude modeling first. No cop is going to do this to entice an offer of sexual capitalism, but a sex worker will jump at the easy money.
Posted by shuvoff on September 1, 2010 at 9:43 AM · Report this
AAA - Real Doll? Just a thought. But if you're interested in actual women, therapy is a must.
Posted by lovesmesomeplastic on September 1, 2010 at 9:51 AM · Report this

If you wish to seek out a escort, Get a membership in a escort review board that reviews escorts. And pick one that has great reviews and a proven and reasonably long track record. It's well worth the $50 bucks or so to sign up.
Escorts that have proven track records are definityly not cops and are great providers, pleasant fun and give great sex
Posted by stmpfkr on September 1, 2010 at 10:38 AM · Report this
mr. herriman 41
@ 34 i thought your user name was "eatmytoes" at first glance! i just thought you might like to know that.
Posted by mr. herriman on September 1, 2010 at 11:24 AM · Report this
Poopnoodle - That word just screams for a useable definition - Please Please find something that
can get it into a dictionary.
Posted by kindad on September 1, 2010 at 11:48 AM · Report this
This has got to be the most disappointing Savage Love in ages. I read it aloud to my girlfriend every week. We look forward to it. I felt stupid reading these letters and responses aloud.
Posted by budzik on September 1, 2010 at 11:49 AM · Report this
As far as the cream pie question, I googled it just for shits and giggles.

The fourth result I got was hilarious:

"Overbeating may cause cream pie to separate‎"

Posted by MT3 on September 1, 2010 at 12:02 PM · Report this
@27 - GREAT advice, and yeah, I saw that too when I read the letter.
Posted by MT3 on September 1, 2010 at 12:06 PM · Report this
For AAA, what about a sexual surrogate?
Posted by it's too hot out on September 1, 2010 at 12:26 PM · Report this
Agree with most of the responses to AAA. Guys who profess to 'love women' (as what, a sepcies? All of them?) are usually as big a red flag as self-professed 'nice guys,' but AAA doesn't come across as an asshole. Still, like someone smarter than me once said, a pedestal is as confining as a prison cell. Dude needs to talk to women without an end goal. Hell, just chatting with women online (not sex chats, platonic chatrooms) would be more realistic than web cams.
Posted by Shazaam on September 1, 2010 at 2:28 PM · Report this
@10 There are Aspies in my family and I've read a lot about it, and I've worked with Autistic kids, and I have ADHD (which is on the Autism spectrum too).

This guy does not sound like he's got Aspergers at all, particularly since it's only women that he's anxious about. He doesn't say any of the stuff that makes Aspergers special (such as he can't figure out how to identify what emotions other people are feeling). His complaint is not that he can't understand people, it's that he's terrified to be in the same room as women.

There's nothing in this letter to indicate Aspergers. It sounds more like a whole lot of anxiety, which is severely impacting his life, and is certainly cause to go see a shrink.
Posted by SpaceGirl on September 1, 2010 at 4:35 PM · Report this
About AAA: I have a friend who told me he suffers from "love shyness", a term coined by psychologist Brian G. Gilmartin (info on Wikipedia & his website); he's a 30 year old virgin like AAA. His mother was very anxious her whole life... anyway,
he's been seeing a therapist and recently learned a simple meditation, both of which help, especially with confidence. I have hopes he will emerge from this a happy, loving sexual being. Recommending therapy, Dan, is right on; "practice-dating" a sexworker is also a great idea.
Posted by suzyq on September 1, 2010 at 4:43 PM · Report this
@48, I didn't diagnose AAA as an Aspie - I encouraged him to take the test. I have no idea if he's Aspie or not - hence the advice about, ya know, taking the test.

While his "complaint" only addressed his problem with women, he is writing to a sex advice columnist - for advice about sex. I'm guessing most people who write to Dan wouldn't be asking for advice about stimming, meltdowns, problems managing eye contact, etc., so I wouldn't expect to see that level of detail in a question to Dan.

Look, if you'd like to read a ton of posts that sound astonishingly similar to AAAs, take a swing by the Wrong Planet website (online community for people on the spectrum). The "Love and Dating" forum is crammed with them.
Posted by wtfwjd on September 1, 2010 at 5:53 PM · Report this
@16, thanks.

@49, up to 40% of men diagnosed as "love shy" actually have Asperger's Syndrome. I have no idea about your friend, or about his therapist's level of knowledge on the subject. I'd encourage him to take the test. Depending on his AQ, he may want to get himself to a teaching hospital for an accurate diagnosis. Good luck.
Posted by wtfwjd on September 1, 2010 at 5:59 PM · Report this
Poopnoodles may be fictional, but male urinary tract infections caused by anal sex aren't. Uncommon, yes, but it happens.
Posted by Atharaenea on September 1, 2010 at 6:11 PM · Report this
I'm sure Dan's advice to AAA is pretty good, but unfortunately it only applies to people with the disposable income to spend on shrinks and/or hookers.
Posted by Myself on September 1, 2010 at 6:35 PM · Report this
I used to date a woman with the same kink as FIP, at least I think I did, as she never never actually admitted it directly. It's just that early in the relationship she told me something along the lines of "Look, I prefer to sleep in, so if you wake up horny and I'm sleeping on my side, feel free to just lube up and help yourself as long as you can do so without waking me up."
Posted by evmule on September 1, 2010 at 8:04 PM · Report this
#27, I read that as an attempt to cut off responses pinning his shyness on being gay or hating women.

#33, this is so off topic but Amy Tan's Hundred Secret Senses employed the alarm cock phrase too and I have loved it ever since then. I haven't read any of her books since high school... thanks for bringing her to mind. x)
Posted by lilechka on September 1, 2010 at 9:05 PM · Report this
Hey awkward and alone, here's the scoop: you are a raging sexist. You act as though women are somehow different from men. They are, of course, they have tits and you don't, etc.

But conversationally? They have minds, just like yours. Well, not like yours. Better than yours. Yours is full of stupid thoughts like "I can't talk to women".
Posted by Flame on September 1, 2010 at 9:24 PM · Report this
Canuck 57
@56 Wow! Great, measured, sympathetic response! Thank goodness women are just like men, and AAA doesn't have to worry about any of them biting his head off when he tries to talk to them. Men who feel they can't talk to women don't feel that way (I'd imagine) because they are sexist pigs, they feel that way because they are scared, socially nervous, and insecure. Your raging comment just confirmed AAA's belief that he can't do this. Way to go! Consider a career in counseling, or perhaps parenthood!
Posted by Canuck on September 1, 2010 at 9:49 PM · Report this
#52, absolutely. Even if you're fluid bonded with a monogamous partner and don't use condoms, taking a piss after anal sex is a good idea, to dislodge any tiny particles of shit that might have gotten stuck up there. Of course, if you're having unprotected anal sex with casual partners or strangers, painful urination could end up being the least of your worries.
Posted by DexX on September 1, 2010 at 10:13 PM · Report this
Oh man, AAA is a little too close to home, except that I'm 30 and female and, thanks to a healthy case of social anxiety, I am fucking intimidated by guys. It's not that I think men are different or dangerous or in any way bad...I can't explain it. I love them, I want them (DESPERATELY!) but I can't get past the fear! I've managed to make a few platonic male friends at least, but that's as far as it ever gets. AAA, I feel your pain!
Posted by Aligator on September 1, 2010 at 11:00 PM · Report this
why why why

poopnoodle, why
Posted by Shannon Murphy on September 1, 2010 at 11:13 PM · Report this
don't need no one to tell me its okay
really wouldn't have it any other way
but when i first saw u couldn't hide my attraction,
girl u look like u can make my dreams come true
cuz what we share in secret glances and makes me wonder bout a brand new world with u
and why does the time crawl by
when i'm waiting waiting
for this lifetime of mine
to turn around
Posted by stupid on September 1, 2010 at 11:46 PM · Report this
Awkward and Alone doesn't love "women." Not as people. He loves the way they "look, move, and sound"--ie, he likes them as sensory (and sensual) objects. Dude needs to realize that women are people, and learn to engage them as individuals rather than representatives of some idealized notion of sexual attractiveness.

He still needs to see a shrink prolly, since that isn't as easy as saying "dude, snap out of it and just treat "women" as "people.""

But yes. I wonder if he has the same difficulties talking to women he does not find attractive, or if he ever even attempts to talk to women he doesn't find attractive.
Posted by Ladylegs on September 2, 2010 at 1:22 AM · Report this
#57, comment #56 is probably a lot less aggressive than you think. It could read like a casual observation: the root of the guy's problem is a sexist inability to perceive women as regular people. Is this malicious, angry, lady-hating sexism? No, but as Avenue Q taught us Everyone's A Little Bit Racist so just sub "sexist" in there and go with it, knowing we all have biases and we need to acknowledge them to overcome them.

Women are unquestionably different from men in terms of our cultural context. Because the sexes are treated differently by society and fiction tends to reduce women to objects and caricatures, I can see how somebody without any close female figures in his life would be incapable of understanding that ladies are pretty chill and normal on the balance.

Remember, this isn't just social anxiety or general shyness: "I've never even had a conversation with a woman that lasted longer than a couple of minutes" is completely beyond the pale.
Posted by lilechka on September 2, 2010 at 3:28 AM · Report this
Definition of poopnoodle: A frat boy who sits around with other frat boys thinking of stupid/painful/degrading/dangerous/inane sexual acts (see: shocker, donkey punch) or ridiculous consequences of sex acts (see: poopnoodle) that they deem to be any of the above that they image gay men perform with each other or that he thinks would be 'hilarious' to surprise a woman with in middle of sex.
Posted by DarkSarcasm on September 2, 2010 at 5:14 AM · Report this
Anyone curious about terms like poopnoodle (now discredited) and cream pie should log onto Urban Dictionary. It's amazing.
Posted by Michael63 on September 2, 2010 at 6:34 AM · Report this
@63 - "#57, comment #56 is probably a lot less aggressive than you think."

I'd say it's more aggressive than _you_ think. Do you really think that trying to scold and berate people out of their genuinely felt phobias is an effective technique? Because that's what that post is doing. You might as well tell a depressed person "Just cheer the fuck up already, you whiner; lots of people have it worse than you."
Posted by Morosoph on September 2, 2010 at 8:06 AM · Report this
AAA, meet some damned women! Join a mixed softball league or go to the book club at the library or something, anything, that has you talking to and with women - all kinds of women, not just ones you find attractive. Aim to make at least one third of your conversations in any given week with women, and no fair counting ordering your cheeseburger. Right now you can't see the trees for the forest.
Posted by agony on September 2, 2010 at 8:15 AM · Report this
persimmon 68
Great. Now how many months is it gonna take before Dan gets a letter from a man who can't come except with a tub of chocolate frosting?
Posted by persimmon on September 2, 2010 at 8:48 AM · Report this
I was very similar to AAA. I was a 34 year old virgin (not by choice) and only had a couple of first dates in my 34 years. I could talk to women but could not shift gears to dating talk. I would get incredibly nervous if I tried to shift gears, so I just quit. BTW, I am a fairly good looking guy. I thought I would never have sex and never get married. Then I met my future wife who was very aggressive. We have a great life and great conversations (and great sex).
Posted by 35yearoldhappyguy on September 2, 2010 at 10:31 AM · Report this
I laughed so hard milk came out my nose. Is that a milk noodle?
Posted by display name on September 2, 2010 at 11:28 AM · Report this
Holy chocolate frosting! Dan, the poopnoodle response is the funniest thing you have written in a long time.
Posted by Get Real on September 2, 2010 at 12:17 PM · Report this
@48 yes no Aspi.

AAA sounds a bit like me in my 30s. I was partly "cured" by just repeatedly diving into that freezing pool, no matter how painful.

The shrink method certainly works: years later during other therapy I could see my original problem: my dating awkwardness wasn't shyness at all. It was actually complicated ...but mostly huge buried anger over childhood abuse issues. Vy do you hate your mutter? Bingo.
Posted by wbeaty on September 2, 2010 at 1:41 PM · Report this
Maturity level of this week's letters: 2.
Hilarity level of this week's letters: 11.
Posted by Yawgmoth on September 2, 2010 at 2:05 PM · Report this
campsite rule 74
@37 - "I think "poopnoodle" should be the term for someone like Ken Mehlman -- a turd that comes out long after he's already fucked people over."

Best definition ever - make it official, Dan!
Posted by campsite rule on September 2, 2010 at 3:19 PM · Report this
pales 75
74, you're a genius!
Posted by pales on September 2, 2010 at 3:50 PM · Report this
hartiepie 76
@48 ADHD is NOT on the autism spectrum....

It's an entirely different condition.

And the LW could indeed have Asperger Syndrome, though based off of what he wrote, nobody could tell he does ---- or doesn't.
Posted by hartiepie on September 2, 2010 at 3:51 PM · Report this
I second the vote for 37's definition. It's absolutely brilliant!
Posted by dmsf on September 2, 2010 at 3:52 PM · Report this
@BDSM: My envy for you knows no bounds. Enjoy it, sweetie!
Posted by Rondie on September 2, 2010 at 4:27 PM · Report this
AAA...your problem is... you are an engineer!
Posted by luvgeeks on September 2, 2010 at 9:45 PM · Report this
AAA - an additional piece of advice for when you hire that escort...DO NOT FALL IN LOVE WITH HER. A lot of awkward guys have a tendency to fall "in love" with the first woman who ever makes prolonged eye contact with them rather than really intelligently evaluating the nature of each relationship in terms of intimacy, interest, compatibility, etc., as they would if they were able to have contact with women on a regular, casual basis.
Posted by laurelgardner on September 3, 2010 at 2:33 AM · Report this
@48 - ADHD on the autism spectrum?? Where the everliving fuck did you encounter THAT pile of nonsense?
Posted by laurelgardner on September 3, 2010 at 2:36 AM · Report this
"The ADHD Autism Connection, A Step Toward More Accurate Diagnosis and Effective Treatment" by Diane M. Kennedy

Obviously, the existence of the book does not equal fact... it's still in hypothesis stage...

She does make a compelling case, though.
Posted by shelldavis4 on September 3, 2010 at 5:18 AM · Report this
This notion that a man who's uncomfortable talking to women must be a raging sexist pig, who believes that women are a separate species, is absolutely ridiculous.

A man doesn't have to believe women are "different" from men in any significant way to be nervous about talking to women, but not nervous about talking to men. Because when a man talks to men, unless he's in a gay bar, he isn't going to be perceived as trying to pick them up. The same is true with women talking to men.

Approaching someone in a "romantic" way, which is what the letter-writer wants to do, is completely different than approaching someone in a friendly way. And approaching someone in a friendly way, when you believe that they might interpret your approach as a come-on, is completely different than approaching someone in a friendly way without having that fear.

I'm a gay man, and I feel very different about striking up a conversation with a man in a non-gay environment (ie, somewhere that isn't a gay bar, a pride parade, a party thrown by a gay friend with mostly gay people in attendance) than I do about striking up a conversation with a woman in the same environment. I find there's often a difference in how you're perceived in those situations.

One last thing - if you know nothing about social anxiety, or fear of romantic rejection, please refrain from giving advice to someone with these problems. Saying to the letter-writer, "Just talk to lots of women and you won't be bothered by it anymore," is sort of like saying to an alcoholic, "Just cut yourself off after you've had a few drinks, and you won't lose control."
Posted by Fidelio on September 3, 2010 at 5:52 AM · Report this
im a 19 years old girl ....em looking fa date....but not straight date....n its n ot just to hab sex n fun....fa da seek of friendship..........holla me bak nebody intrested...
Posted by hanky panky on September 3, 2010 at 6:03 AM · Report this
Wow, Midori is a kink superstar/supernova? I thought she just played the violin.
Posted by T295 on September 3, 2010 at 7:52 AM · Report this
I'm so glad I read this column, as it has given me an new, PG-rated name to call people who annoy me - poopnoodle!
Posted by Not vanilla on September 3, 2010 at 7:55 AM · Report this
Danrilor 87
I can't believe that you even answered the poopnoodle guy. Whoa. I mean just... whoa. We NEED four years of sex ed in high school or something.
Posted by Danrilor on September 3, 2010 at 1:00 PM · Report this
For additional laughs check out the discussion section ( Creampie_%28sexual_act%29 ) of the Wiki listing for Creampie. Pages upon pages of folks discussing what is and is not a creampie and what should and should not be included due to poor taste (sorry, a bad pun).
Posted by MD man on September 3, 2010 at 2:06 PM · Report this
OK I googled Cream Pie [tho I know what it is]. Does Wikipedia really need a visual to show what it is? There must be some funny dudes working there.
Posted by Big Ted on September 3, 2010 at 9:02 PM · Report this
i love you dan savage. you help make life less intense in the right ways!
Posted by littlesister on September 4, 2010 at 1:08 AM · Report this
lyllyth 91

ADHD is NOT on the Autism spectrum. Read the DSM-IV, will you?
Or at least find a cited psychatric/pychological link to back up that claim.
Posted by lyllyth on September 4, 2010 at 2:44 AM · Report this
92 Comment Pulled (Duplicate) Comment Policy
Your letter sounds just like me, except that instead of reminding me of Clark Kent, my Bend Over Boyfriend looks like George Bush (except a very hot version).
When we broke up briefly I discovered that I was no longer vanilla but was not necessarily his kind of kinky. I was attracted to Tantra (sacred sexuality) and when we got back together I turned HIM onto it. Now half the time we play his games and half the time mine. We both think this has enhanced our sex lives.
Posted by Juicy Lucy on September 4, 2010 at 11:40 AM · Report this
Awkward, you unfortunately did not discuss your relationship with other men. Do you have good friends? If you do, that's good! You know how to build relationships with humans. 'Cause us girls, you know, we're humans first and girls second. If you don't believe me, go look at boy and girl babies - they're a lot more alike than they are different.

I'm going to add to Dan's sex worker advice. You don't need a girlfriend right now. What you need to do is make some female friends. Stop looking at all of them as girlfriends you can't have! Just talk to them. Join some clubs, if you have some introverted type interests, you need to do that type of stuff and if you're a geek, then meet some geeky people, some of whom will be girls. Make female friends you trust who will tell you then forgive you if you make conversational blunders and get used to talking to them. THEN you can test drive a date!

I definitely agree with Dan on the therapist thing. I'm sorry to snap judge, but you appear to have placed females on a Goddess pedastal, but perhaps a vengeful Goddess. Why does talking to us terrify you? What are we going to do to you? Have you ever seen a girl suddenly grab a weapon out of her purse and shoot a male who dared speak to her? I don't mean to be flip, but your fears may not be, to put it delicately, based in current reality. Talking about it may help you see that and dispel them.
Posted by GG1000 on September 4, 2010 at 3:37 PM · Report this
I was just thinking that "poopnoodle" should be the term for any sexual act/behavior/result that is rumored to be true but actually isn't.
Posted by MikeDangerous on September 4, 2010 at 5:05 PM · Report this
Lilliable 96

I thought Midori Ito was just a championship skater.
Posted by Lilliable on September 4, 2010 at 8:17 PM · Report this
I though #37's suggested definition for "poopnoodle" was brilliant, but #95's is good too. Life is so full of hard decisions...

Although, I suspect those human turds that come out only after already making a political career out of demonizing (or being complicit with demonizing) the LGBT community will just come to be known as "Mehlmans." (Or maybe just "Republicans"). Except for the ones who never come out. Those will be known as "larrycraigs."
Posted by danfan on September 4, 2010 at 11:42 PM · Report this
AAA: If you aren't exaggerating about not having had any conversations with women, you need a lot of help. Add me to the people who think you don't "love women", you just love women's bodies. Which is a turnoff for a lot of women.

I like Dan's advice, but I also want to urge you to get used to talking to women in non-sexual situations. Try to get friendly with married/happily partnered women you don't find particularly attractive. Or lesbians. Or nuns. If it's clear to both of you that nothing romantic is going on, it will be easier to talk to them. Join a book club where you have to talk to women. Or take dance lessons where you have to touch them. Try to get used to thinking about the person inside that body. Then, after you've seen the shrink and the hooker, you will be much better positioned to meet women whose bodies turn you on, because you will be able to see both the body and the person. Trust me, it will make you much more interesting and desirable to women.

(My oh-so-proper widowed grandmother used to hire male escorts to escort her. She wanted someone to drive her to the theater, and to walk with her on the sidewalk, so she felt safe. She wanted male companionship that DIDN'T come with sexual demands. I'm certain she didn't break any prostitution laws or run much risk of getting busted.)

FIP: I love "middle of the night" sex. I'm not as tired as I am when I go to bed, and there's no deadline re catching a train or generally getting going for the day. It never occurred to me that it's "kinky", and I can't imagine that your partner will be freaked out by the kinkiness of it. Try telling him/her that if he's ever horny in the middle of the night, you'd love to be awakened by his caress. (Of course, if he sleeps like a log, you may just be out of luck.)
Posted by Puzzlegal on September 5, 2010 at 8:42 AM · Report this
40 fish 99
Oh Dan, such a funny column this week - loved it!
Posted by 40 fish on September 5, 2010 at 1:55 PM · Report this
biju 100
Is it just me or does anyone else think that its possible for AAA's issues to get even more warped if he's going to be getting his practice hanging out with escorts? First off, how would he even find a good one that meets his requirements? Seriously, therapist first - and with their blessing, go join some sports teams, volunteer, just get out there and do stuff thats fun. First and foremost make friends that are just friends.
Posted by biju on September 5, 2010 at 4:05 PM · Report this
Some of you should clearly be ashamed of yourselves.

Somebody with a serious problem confesses it here and either get's a 'get over yourself', a 'you're weird', a 'you're probably gay' or is even accused of being sexist and his sexism being the cause of why he doesn't talk to women? Come on.

A little bit more empathy would suit some of you and to the person accusing AAA of basically being a sexist pig: if in your world even guys who never had sex in their entire life and don't even talk to women are sexist (for what? for basically never bothering a single female out there?) you should reexamine your own belief system.

From my personal experience many people that suffer from that kind of crippling social anxiety really suffer from Aspergers, ADD or other disorders from the Autism spectrum and the depression and social anxiety are usually comorbidities of those disorders.

Not having sexual or even normal personal relationships is really not that unusual with that kind of disorders. From personal experience I know a lot of people - me being among them - who are basically not that much different from AAA but usually don't talk about it even with their closest friends for fear of exactly the reactions shown in this thread.

I'd suggest to go to a therapist but to one who as a real understanding and knowledge about Aspergers, ADD and other disorders. It doesn't mean you suffer from something like that but it spares you sinking more than five years in useless therapy - like I did - just because your therapist hasn't even heard about those disorders and their symptoms.

If you suffer from more than 'social anxiety', therapy alone will probably not help but has to be supported by medication to be effective.
Posted by Jeff Kelly on September 5, 2010 at 7:15 PM · Report this
And to those of you with all of that "vengeful goddess" and "pedestal" suggestions, it's not even close to that.

You could compare it more to someone suffering from a phobia. Someone who has a fear of flying doesn't think "I am not worthy of traveling with this divine machines" either. Relating and talking to unfamiliar people in unfamiliar situations causes exactly the same kind of stress and panic as stepping into an elevator would for somebody that suffers from claustrophobia.
Posted by Jeff Kelly on September 5, 2010 at 7:25 PM · Report this
@81: If you'd follow the publications closely you'd know that ADHD is considered by many experts to be an Autism spectrum disorder.

There is strong evidence that this might be the case especially since the neurotransmitter deficiencies are similar in all of those disorders.

Even some symptoms correlate: like the reduced ability of the brain to cope with external stimulus that leads to sensory overload, hypersensitivity and hyperfokus.

Those symptoms are extremely pronounced in Autists, to the point that they have to shut out the external world completely in order to cope but ADD patients suffer from those symptoms albeit in a much milder form.

I have seen ADD patients that completely freaked out because somebody touched them and the sensory overload caused by todays world usually makes them to seek solitude and seclusion, something that often gets labelled as 'social anxiety' but is actually at least similar to the symptoms caused by other disorders from the autism spectrum.
Posted by Jeff Kelly on September 5, 2010 at 7:39 PM · Report this
Advising AAA to get out and meet some women is not dismissive - it's good advice. In my life, I have found that the way to deal with my fears is to face them. Not by jumping full-on into a fearful situation, but by gradually and incrementally exposing myself to what is feared. By doing this, I realize a couple of things - that my perceptions were not very realistic, and that I am stronger and more capable than I thought I was.

AAA said that he has never really talked to women. A reasonable first step would be to start talking to women, in a non threatening context. When he becomes comfortable with that, he can move on - perhaps to talking a sex worker, perhaps to sexless dates, whatever. Eventually he'll have reduced his fears to manageable proportions, and then his desires will give him the push he needs to get past that last barrier. He will have changed his mental image of women from a monolithic block of scary people into individuals, some of whom he likes, some of whom he doesn't. Some will be nice to him, some won't.

One poster said that talking to people in "romantic" settings is inherently more stressful than talking in a more neutral setting. That hasn't been my own experience. LW hasn't been talking to women at all, so who knows what his experience will be. I suspect his will be like that of most people - it's hard to do something you have built up in your head as huge, but if you break it down into small steps, it's doable.
Posted by agony on September 6, 2010 at 7:15 AM · Report this
casually askew 105
Definition of poopnoodle: someone with santorum on the brain
Posted by casually askew on September 6, 2010 at 11:27 AM · Report this
hartiepie 106
@103 I don't know what "experts" you are referring to. Do a quick Google search (regular and Scholar) to see what I mean.

I am a PhD in disability education and NONE of the books on my shelves put ADD/ADHD and autism together as variations of a single disorder.

Since science constantly finds new information they may in the future of course --- but not now.
Posted by hartiepie on September 6, 2010 at 12:00 PM · Report this

The problem with sex is that everyone thinks its a mental game all of the time, and obviously its your situation as well.

I am in a similar boat. My engines were reving with what I wanted to do, but my transmission never kicked in. Sadly it took losing the first love of my life at 29 to discover that I had a clinical problem:secondary hypogonadism. I didn't produce a healthy amount of testosterone.

I feel better then I have ever in my life with treatment and its easy to overlook this as "this is me, i'm normal, why do I suck". Go to a doctor and enquire. Porn might get you off but its not proof that you are healthy "mechanically" and that your problem is your head. A therapist would also be aware of this.
Posted by phoenixfire81 on September 6, 2010 at 7:14 PM · Report this

The problem with sex is that everyone thinks its a mental game all of the time, and obviously its your situation as well.

I am in a similar boat. My engines were reving with what I wanted to do, but my transmission never kicked in. Sadly it took losing the first love of my life at 29 to discover that I had a clinical problem:secondary hypogonadism. I didn't produce a healthy amount of testosterone.

I feel better then I have ever in my life with treatment and its easy to overlook this as "this is me, i'm normal, why do I suck". Go to a doctor and enquire. Porn might get you off but its not proof that you are healthy "mechanically" and that your problem is your head. A therapist would also be aware of this.
Posted by phoenixfire81 on September 6, 2010 at 7:21 PM · Report this
This week's guest podcaster is a douche.

If a woman wants a threesome, it means something's wrong with the relationship?

what crap.
Posted by Doot on September 7, 2010 at 3:46 AM · Report this
HellboundAlleee 110
@509: Get out of Eastern Washington. Get to 206, or 360. Or even 212. Just get the hell out of 509, k?
Posted by HellboundAlleee on September 7, 2010 at 6:42 PM · Report this
I'm assuming that "509" didn't send in a picture, but viola! His comment was run anyway. Whadda ya know!
Posted by Rawkcuf on September 8, 2010 at 7:29 AM · Report this
We always called it a poopworm, not a noodle. LOL, I also lol'd at the last line where you called the poor speller a poopnoodle. Nice callback as Jon Stewart would say!
Posted by TheRealEstateDude on October 17, 2010 at 4:36 AM · Report this
Cynara 113
@48,76,81,82,91,103: Visiting here from the future to say that 48, 82, and 103 might have been right, despite the scoffing of the others.…
Kids With ADHD Often Show Autistic Traits
October 16, 2013…
High Proportion of Children With Autism Also Have ADHD
June 11, 2013
Posted by Cynara on October 23, 2013 at 2:13 PM · Report this

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