Savage Love by Dan Savage - Seattle Columns - Savage Love - Dan Savage

1

I'm confused about the advice to Stuck. Has the guy tried suggesting that he could sleep with other women, while his girlfriend stays home and nurses her low sex drive?

Posted by EricaP on January 4, 2011 at 6:59 PM · Report

2

Also, the advice to Scared, GSP, and EPL was solid as well as impressively gentle and understanding...

Posted by EricaP on January 4, 2011 at 7:01 PM · Report

3

@1: Sounds like he's suggested that and she wouldn't be cool with it. Also, what, no "First"?

GSP: Try having him come a few hours before he comes in your mouth. This should reduce the quantity of semen. You get bigger loads if you wait a while before coming.

Posted by BlackRose on January 4, 2011 at 7:13 PM · Report

4

I always find it funny when people write in and expect Dan to tell them it is OK to cheat. Advice is one thing for the ultimate answer he needs to ask himself.

Posted by Yumietreat on January 4, 2011 at 7:17 PM · Report

5

Sorry, Stuck, you're stuck. Generally, women in their 30s are really ramping up their drive into overdrive; if your girlfriend isn't, then it's completely appropriate (though it might freak her out) to suggest that she speak directly to her ob-gyn about it to see if her birth control is responsible. The ob-gyn can determine whether her hormone levels are wacky; the pill and some other birth control devices can put a serious damper on the ol' drive. Having been stuck myself in a sex-twice-a-year marriage for several decades, if this doesn't work you might need to seek out other options.

Posted by Sarah in Olympia on January 4, 2011 at 7:24 PM · Report

6

@4: As Erica Jong put it, advice is what you ask for when you already know the answer and wish you didn't.

Posted by Pope Buck I on January 4, 2011 at 7:26 PM · Report

7

@5: He wants something sexually adventurous, so I'm thinking even a monogamous relationship with a woman who has a high sex drive might not even satisfy him.

Posted by BlackRose on January 4, 2011 at 7:37 PM · Report

8

Question to SL readers: One take-home message from reading Dan Savage is that porn can be good for people, for relationships, sex lives, etc. But I stay away from it because I can't bear the thought that the actors themselves were exploited in the process. Can anyone suggest where you can access porn that you can be reasonably sure wasn't made by exploited actors? Where you *know* that the participants were there because they wanted to be there and not because they didn't have any other choice? How can I find porn that's both good as well as "good"? Any suggestions?

Posted by North of 49 on January 4, 2011 at 7:47 PM · Report

9

@8, those abbywinters.com girls seem to be having a great time!

Posted by choochoo on January 4, 2011 at 8:03 PM · Report

10

Stuck: #5 reminds me that in addition to BCPs, certain antidepressants are notorious for lowering sex drive in both men and women. Speaking from experience, I can tell you Paxil is one of those. I'm guessing Zoloft is as well, since it is chemically similar to Paxil. Is she taking one of those?

Posted by Robin8

on January 4, 2011 at 8:24 PM · Report

11

Blackrose @3, my sense of guys like Stuck is that they don't have the courage of their convictions. They want more varied sex, but they're scared of the hard conversations that might lead to opening up their relationship. The hard conversation involves saying, explicitly: "I'm going to have sex with other women, and it's non-negotiable. I really hope you don't leave me over this, because I love you."

Instead, they tend to cheat, which leads to a break-up anyway, but the break-up is due more to their cowardice and lies than to their desire for varied sex.

Posted by EricaP on January 4, 2011 at 8:32 PM · Report

12

@ #8, the Kink.com sites produce good stuff in an ethical way if bdsm is your bag. There is honest, ethical porn to be had.

Tristan Taramino (sp) is a director who produces 'good' stuff too. Violet Blue's website has some good links too. Tony Comstock has made some interested films that are plenty sexy and include more narrative with the couples. The Comstock films might be a good place to start if you are worried about the ethics of it all. That should be enough to get you started!

Posted by t_in_pdx on January 4, 2011 at 8:40 PM · Report

13

@11: Yes, but he specifically says he's talked to her about "arrangements" and "anything to sleep with other women".

I'm not sure that kind of direct statement is best. You're suggesting she might not leave him if he just tells her about it and does it, even if he asks and she said no? The problem with that is that she might not have the courage of conviction, and stay with him even when she's miserable, which will make for a lousy last few months of a relationship (I've been there: that was my ex).

Do you think "I'm gonna have sex with other women" is better than "I would really like to open this relationship up because I'm unhappy like this, and it isn't working out for me"? I've had similar problems -- in fact, your comment could be talking about me in the past -- but I've never tried that approach... and why not just make it clear from the beginning that you only want something open?

Posted by BlackRose on January 4, 2011 at 8:47 PM · Report

14

Dan is sharper than me because he only had to read BBP's letter twice. I still don't know what the hell she is saying.

"I recently noticed that he is watching porn when I am not around." Huh? Is there some kind of monitoring device employed here?

"...I noticed that since he started watching porn, we have had a lot more sex. Can you help me sort this out so I can bandage up my wounds?" WTF? Is this woman writing for advice on how to have less sex?

Posted by saxfanatic on January 4, 2011 at 8:58 PM · Report

15

@13: Yes, it's better to make it clear from the beginning, but that's not possible if you're already with someone you love when you start to understand your needs.

We could discuss phraseology, but the important part is to be clear that you won't back down even when she cries and makes your life difficult. Assuming this isn't the first time you (hypothetical you) have brought up the idea of sleeping with other women, I think it's also important to follow up the conversation by actually having sex with someone else. If no one is readily available, then an escort.

There's no better way to get your partner to understand the new reality (and I say this from experience). But make it clear that you are being (and have been) completely honest and that you love and respect her.

Also, point her to websites like Slog, so she can understand that you are the norm, and she's not likely to find someone else she likes as much as she likes you, who won't also have this issue down the road.

Posted by EricaP on January 4, 2011 at 9:22 PM · Report

16

@8, 9: I love Abby Winters!

Posted by fannerz on January 4, 2011 at 9:25 PM · Report

17

@8:

All over the internet. Generally under the category "amateur".

But if you want a specific site, I highly recommend yuvutu.com. Or newbienudes.com.

By the way, I take issue with how you perceive professional porn actors and actresses as all being "exploited". In my experience, that happens very rarely and more to the point, making porn under duress becomes pretty damn transparent and makes for really bad porn. The few people that are good enough actors to make themselves not look exploited under these circumstances have much better acting careers behind them, and get paid much better than anyone in porn could possibly get paid.

Posted by gromm on January 4, 2011 at 9:26 PM · Report

18

@13: Of course, none of this is a guarantee that she won't leave. How could I promise that?

She will be miserable, as you suggest. And then, either she'll leave, or she'll decide she wants to stay. But if you show yourself to be trustworthy, then at least the relationship has a chance of surviving.

Posted by EricaP on January 4, 2011 at 9:28 PM · Report

19

Newbie Nudes? No. They sell credit card numbers. I don't know how ethical their porn is, but their business practices are despicable.

Posted by O on January 4, 2011 at 9:36 PM · Report

20

@15, I'd give her more of a chance and a little more time to adjust to the idea than two conversations worth, we don't know how much he's actually talked to her about this in a serious way. It's also likely her sex-drive is gone because she's sexually bored as well, just isn't aware of the reasons for it. The idea that she doesn't want to use what little sex drive she has on other people doesn't make any sense to me. Sex drive is situational, not static.

Posted by gnot on January 4, 2011 at 9:53 PM · Report

21

@20 - agreed. The discussion, really, should go on and on and on, as both of you figure out what this new reality looks like.

For us, the initial conversation took most of a weekend (with a lot of tears). Then it averaged about an hour a day for the next month...

We made rules then (this was nine months ago), that we have had to revise subsequently, and that takes time too. But now on balance we spend less time talking about fears and concerns, and more time sharing fun stories and fantasies about being with other people.

But the conversation will never go anywhere if the guy starts by saying, "this is something I'd like, but I'll wait until you're okay with it." If I had thought I could control my husband and stop him from sleeping with other women, I would have. The benefits wouldn't have seemed worth the risks. Since he made clear he was going to do this, then it was up to me to figure out how to fit myself into the new world. How to control myself, not him.

Posted by EricaP on January 4, 2011 at 10:05 PM · Report

22

@15, 18: What about people who say that they know non-monogamy is not for them, that they've thought about it and talked about it and are really uncomfortable and anxious about the idea? That was my ex's situation, and it sounds like the LW's GF may be that way also. If someone's already said that they would break up with you if you had sex with someone else, why actually do it and tell them? It's probably less easier and less painful to just break up first.

Posted by BlackRose on January 4, 2011 at 10:10 PM · Report

23

@8, http://www.tinynibbles.com/smartporn has seemed like a pretty good list to me.

Posted by emilywhat on January 4, 2011 at 10:14 PM · Report

24

blade? fight circle? pet/mistress? 'splain, please.

Posted by scary tyler moore

on January 4, 2011 at 10:18 PM · Report

25

@8: Erotic art and comics, though perhaps not considered "porn" by everyone, are great sources of stimulus for those worried about the ethics of porn production and consumption.

Posted by Pidgeon_Rat on January 4, 2011 at 10:36 PM · Report

26

These letters, with the exception of the first one, were all extremely annoying.

GSP wants advice on how to get him "most of the way there and letting him come on [her] face." Huh? The way you do that is by getting him most of the way there and letting him come on your face.

EPL keeps saying she "slept" with Jennifer. What's with the quotes? Is "slept" a euphemism for some blade-centered kink? Otherwise, I think we could have figured out what she meant without the quotes.

BBP's and Stuck's letters are just too pointless to even talk about. BBP has no problem and Stuck should just break up. WTF?

It's obvious week at Savage Love!

Posted by nyker on January 4, 2011 at 10:40 PM · Report

27

Indeed, Dan was very gentle today. Very different from his "Hey faggot" times. Could it be he is mellowing with age? That all those letter-writers now feel like children seeking wisdom?

Indeed things have changed since college days.

Posted by ankylosaur on January 4, 2011 at 11:59 PM · Report

28

Indeed, Dan was very gentle today. Very different from his "Hey faggot" times. Could it be he is mellowing with age? That all those letter-writers now feel like children seeking wisdom?

Indeed things have changed since college days. :-)

Posted by ankylosaur on January 4, 2011 at 11:59 PM · Report

29

"if you treat me like anything other than your equal when we're not having sex, Sir, I will kick your fucking ass."

Would Dan have suggested this phrase if SOS had been a sub man writing about his dom girlfriend? I'm not really cool with the idea that getting hit is an appropriate comeuppance for a man who treats a woman disrespectfully - or, for that matter, with the idea of using domestic violence as a threat against ANYONE, even half in jest.

(And don't give me some bullshit about how "kick your fucking ass" is metaphorical. Denotation supersedes connotation, and if you doubt that, ask yourself how you'd react to a man threatening to kick his girlfriend's ass.)

Posted by needlenose pliers on January 5, 2011 at 12:29 AM · Report

30

@8 feck.com.au has great ethics and at least used to link
to other responsible porn sites somewhere (liability/uncertainty may make them
remove rec's though)... A pal in Melbourne worked for them
and loved it! Talk about a dreamy way to get paid!!

Posted by SeattleSnark on January 5, 2011 at 12:46 AM · Report

31

@29 My BF and I threaten to kick each other's ass all the time. It is an expression. In reality, we might playfully bite, wrestle or even gently strike each other, but it's all a game.
If someone is uncomfortable with the expression and says so, then I'll try not to use it with them. But most people are cool with it.

Posted by Ola

on January 5, 2011 at 2:26 AM · Report

32

@8 vivthomas.com was the site that got the misses to enjoy porn. Art of Sex was the video that did it. Very consensual, very hot, very much enjoyed by all.

Posted by TMcz on January 5, 2011 at 3:46 AM · Report

33

Saxfanatic @14--I read her letter to mean that: 1-she saw his browser history, so that's how she knows he's watching it when she's not around, and 2-she is feeling insecure because she "wasn't enough" to turn him on, and he "had to" turn to porn to rev up his engine before wanting to have sex with her.

Posted by JunieGirl on January 5, 2011 at 5:53 AM · Report

34

Stuck's issue is a real issue, and Dan's answer is really the only solution. You can't go back in time and have those crazy times you think that you really wished you had back when you were in college and in your twenties. Your past is your past, and you can't re-write it years later. Stuck thinks that there is this 30 something world of wild love and a crazy single scene similar to what was going on when everybody was single in their teens and twenties. There's not. There is a lot more married folks with kids and dating is a different scene. the swinging and swapping scene is completely different than the college dating scene. Stuck needs to go out there and learn this in real time. He may lose his girlfriend who it doesn't sound like he is very compatible with in the first place. Then he can spend the next few years regretting that girl he let get away because he couldn't deal with his past and finding that the grass isn't really greener. But it seems like he just has to eat that grass.

Posted by koplaw on January 5, 2011 at 6:25 AM · Report

35

@24:
I'm pretty sure the "fight circle" refers to, ya know, people actually poking at each other with (mock, at least) swords. It's a Thing. Trying to recreate a more "romantic" age and whatnot.

Can't help with the pet/mistress part, though.

Posted by Melissa Trible on January 5, 2011 at 7:11 AM · Report

36

"She's talented artistically, poetically, and with a blade." Who the fuck talks like that?

Posted by BostonFontSnob on January 5, 2011 at 7:27 AM · Report

37

@26

I think she's referring to the fact that you can sleep with someone with out sex, just sleep in their bed it's all innocent. Then there's the you actually slept together and there was sex. I think the sword fighting is separate.

@24

Like 35 said, fight circle is more of a medieval-Renaissance thing where you fight each other with swords and sometimes other weapons as well. From what I've heard from a friend, it's a really good bonding experience and a good way to gain trust and respect.

Posted by Luckylee218 on January 5, 2011 at 7:39 AM · Report

38

"Break up, I guess" ?? And this dude gets paid shitloads of money to give advice and speeches? Sweet racket, Dan!

Posted by wayne on January 5, 2011 at 7:44 AM · Report

39

@22: If you know your partner has thought long and hard before rejecting non-monogamy, and you need non-monogamy, then clearly the two of you are not compatible and will have to break up. And yes, you can minimize the pain by breaking up before you start sleeping around.

I thought we were talking about relationships that had a chance of actually opening up, because the woman has shown herself to be open-minded in general, even if not about this issue.

Posted by EricaP on January 5, 2011 at 8:08 AM · Report

40

@8: Can you suggest a restaurant where the food and experience wasn't made by exploited servers, dishwashers, cooks, etc.? Where you *know* that the participants were there because they wanted to be there and not because they didn't have any other choice?

@11: I can't imagine any woman who would react well to that other than women already open to the idea of an open relationship.

Also, I'd like to know what _Stuck_ meant by "skipped." Was it voluntary or involuntary? You may be giving him too hard a time if it was the latter. And if that's the case, I could be him 10 years ago.

It's pretty depressing to know that you need to "mature" (like a bottle of wine) before anyone will want you; and when they do, it won't be for the kind of relationship you want.

Posted by aoeustnh on January 5, 2011 at 8:41 AM · Report

41

@40 - but, a lot of times you yourself don't know what you really want until you're older. 21-year-old me thought she knew what kinda relationship she wanted: 40-year-old, smarter & kinkier me, is highly amused @ what 21-year-old me thought.

..and you won't be genuinely radiating confidence until you yourself really know what you want. I know some people just kinda stumble into relationships & they "just work out", but the ones that have had any staying power in my experience took both partners having a pretty firm idea of what they wanted in general, not just with the party they were involved w/ at the time.

So try not to view that as depressing. & the kind of relationship you want - that phrase covers a lot of ground. Did you mean you personally, or "Skipped"? Lotsa people have wold oats syndrome. (Oh, I shoulda been wild & Crazy in college, etc.) I've dated a guy who didn't have a lot of experience. We had a nice few years together & both of us were GGG, so his lack of planting wild oats was seldom missed & wasn't why we broke up.

Posted by Eva Hopkins

on January 5, 2011 at 9:13 AM · Report

42

@8 Yes, but all of it is queer porn.

I cannot recommend Crash Pad highly enough.

Many of their videos feature an active/passive or top/bottom dynamic. A very few involve cocks made of meat rather than silicon. Unfortunately if queer porn is not your thing you probably won't enjoy the site.

If you're one of Dan's lesbian or queer readers, on the other hand, and not bothered by things shaped like penises, you should take a look.

Posted by catrin on January 5, 2011 at 9:47 AM · Report

43

@40: no, of course no woman who didn't want an open relationship would "react well." It's not about keeping her happy and enjoying smooth sailing. Her partner's desire to sleep with other women is a big iceberg, in the path of smooth sailing. Most men try to hide the iceberg ("she won't be hurt if she doesn't know.") That's a bad choice.

Instead, the point is to find out whether or not she can make the transition to the new reality, where her partner is going to have sex with other women. There's no way to sugar-coat that. There's no way to get through the conversation without pain and frustration.

If asked her opinion, she will tell him not to have sex with other women. I would have. So if he doesn't want to hear that, he can't give her that option. That's not to say you can't be kind along the way. But lying about the intensity of your desires & needs is not kindness.

Posted by EricaP on January 5, 2011 at 9:48 AM · Report

44

The idea is to get her to see that she can choose between her current guy (who has extracurricular sex needs), and some other guy (who will also have extracurricular sex needs).

But she doesn't have the option of a guy without extracurricular sex needs, unless she picks a guy who isn't very interested in sex in the first place.

If, with the help of the many books, websites and experts now out there, you can get her to see that, then she may be willing to make the leap.

Posted by EricaP on January 5, 2011 at 9:54 AM · Report

45

@8 - I occasionally write reviews of porn (and sometimes interview creators) for a British magazine that specializes in unusual (esp. female-oriented) porn, and I've been consistently surprised at the quality of some of the non-mainstream movies I've encountered.

While I second what the other reviewer said about porn rarely exploiting its actors (if you'd like an interesting look at the business, I recommend Asia Carrera's website - she's a porn actress who's also a card-carrying MENSA member), I can totally understand mainstream porn seeming blah - it tends to be rather cookie-cutter, and doesn't pay any attention to the personhood of the actors involved. If you'd like to try something different, where the actors are playing characters in a story as well as having some pretty hot sex, I highly recommend "Life, Love, Lust" by Erika Lust or "Matinee" by Jennifer Lyon Bell. (No exploitation in either, I promise.)

Posted by roseneko

on January 5, 2011 at 10:47 AM · Report

46

I think the saddest part of this is EricaP being snowed by her husband that there is no such thing as a man with a decent sex drive who can be monogamous. Really? He really got you to believe that?

There are plenty of folks of both genders out there who have sampled the buffet plenty, know what they want, and have no desire to sample further. In my experience these people tended to be pretty much amateur sex workers for a few years, at least, and at one time may have thought monogamy was an evil oppressive shackle of society, but are now just bored with the impossible to avoid drama and complication that comes with sleeping with more than one person. Between work and kids and our own relationship and sex life, my husband and I just don't have time for anyone else anymore. We prefer to devote our attention to one another. Do we still desire others? HELL YES. But it's just not worth it. Sort of like how it's tons of fun to be a party animal for years but eventually you can't deal with another freaking hangover. Fond memories and a stress free life comfort us in our monogamy now.

If my husband came to me and informed me he'd be sleeping with other women at this point in our relationship, I'd inform him he could update his FB status to single. I'm just not interested in that kind of drama anymore. And I'm not talking about fighting or jealousy games, I'm talking about scheduling the sexual and romantic demands of two women around work and family. Then again, I also like to fuck, a lot, in varied ways, and am pretty demanding. A once a week kind of gal may not care. My first comment to him would be "we'll discuss you having sex with other women when you're fucking me at least twice a day, every day."

Also, sex drives are situational only due to depression or medical issues. People who want and like sex will find a way to have it or miss it. I think a lot of people confuse new relationship energy with sex drive. Finally, it's entirely possible Stuck just sucks in bed, like MOST hetero men without much experience do. Women who are getting laid properly by a man they love generally like sex and are not averse to having more.

More...

Posted by wendykh on January 5, 2011 at 10:50 AM · Report

47

@15

making your partner miserable sounds like a really shitty way to open up a relationship. It essentially says, "I don't care about your feelings, I don't care about your needs, this is all about me. Deal with it."

Who'd wanna date someone like that in the first place? Also, not every single guy has "extracurricular needs." Yes, I know, anyone who doesn't have them is just not admitting it and secretly living a life of despair. But if savage love has taught me one thing, its that there are all types of people in this world, even the occasional naturally monogamous male.

Posted by Cup of Coffee on January 5, 2011 at 10:53 AM · Report

48

Re: Ex-Pet Lesbian

Essentially you pretended to be into a couple in order to hook up w/ one member of the couple. Your intent to divide and conquer, at least for the moment, appears to have backfired. EPL, you are in college, the most fertile ground known for experimentation, same-sex relationships and just about anything else you can imagine. Find yourself an unattached woman to have fabulous sex with and let Jennifer dual out her relationship drama without you as a distraction.

Posted by Doctor Darcy

on January 5, 2011 at 11:03 AM · Report

49

@47 I totally agree with your first paragraph. I may even be cool with some degree of openess in my relationship, but having my long term boyfriend tell me "this is the way it's going to be...so deal with it" would not work
For me.

Posted by Rexy on January 5, 2011 at 11:08 AM · Report

50

Stuck's letter sounds way too close enough to my own situation - or at least my situation in the recent past. I spent a _lot_ of time quietly brooding, sometimes seething, about this. At some point I realized that (1) this frustration was consuming me to an unhealthy degree, and (2) I wasn't prepared to deal with it for the rest of my life.

And as someone who's been there, my suggestion would be pretty much what everyone else says: just tell her what it is you need already - i.e. some opportunity for non-monogamy, be that casual affairs with others or a secondary relationship - and that this need won't just go away. That's what I eventually did with my wife. Discussing it was tough for both of us (to put it lightly), but I've worked to demonstrate the commitment that she would require to be comfortable, and she seems to have accepted it. I can't officially say the ending is happy quite yet, but so far I'm feeling better and she seems content.

I know it's tough to make the demand - believe me, I do. Just do it anyway.

Posted by Working on becoming unstuck on January 5, 2011 at 11:09 AM · Report

51

@46/47 - Most men, historically, have not been satisfied with monogamy. They'll promise it, sure, but they don't stick to it over the course of 40-50 years. So she can leave her man for someone who will promise her monogamy, but unless she can see the future, she can't leave her man for someone who is guaranteed not to have these issues.

Wendykh -- you're sure he will never change? You're sure you will never change? If hormonal changes meant you no longer wanted sex very often, would you kick him out the door for wanting more than you did, and trying to get it?

CupofCoffee-- the premise here is that the man has been miserable for years. The woman has said, "I don't care about your feelings, wants & needs. Deal with it." The man is just refusing to accept that situation any more. I've met a million men like that -- just most of them turn to lies instead of honesty when they refuse to accept the situation.

Forgive me for taking up the thread, but I'm on a one-woman crusade to persuade some men to try honesty instead of lies.

Posted by EricaP on January 5, 2011 at 11:10 AM · Report

52

@50 - Fantastic!

Posted by EricaP on January 5, 2011 at 11:11 AM · Report

53

@8 there are several sites for amateurs to upload their personal smut to. youporn xtube etc. You may have to look around a little bit as quite a bit of the stuff is obviously made by professionals, but there are plenty of videos obviously made by couples and shot with a home video camera on a tripod or POV handheld type stuff.

Posted by flounder on January 5, 2011 at 11:21 AM · Report

54

Dan, someone? Could you please elaborate on the any choking- even light choking- is a bad idea? As in at the point you are having your oxygen cut off it's bad? Or, it's dangerous even to have someone be a little rough with you with their hands around your neck? My newish partner has been a bit rough with me and I LOVE it, including putting hands around my neck and grabbing me, but not actually trying to choke the life out of me... I was going to ask him to step it up a bit (tonight in fact)but if this is a terrible idea, any thoughts on what is similar and safe, or where to draw the line (i.e. not using both hands, not having his hand at my throat in the front where it could hurt my wind pipe, etc.)

Thanks in advance

Posted by SFOgirl on January 5, 2011 at 11:29 AM · Report

55

To be fair, I think what was meant by the dig about men needing extracurricular action was that the gf is described as having a very low sex drive - so future partners will either find themselves in the same situation as Stuck or have an equally low sex drive.

Posted by Fierier on January 5, 2011 at 11:35 AM · Report

56

Way to be completely condescending to EPL just because you don't "get" the whole pet-play thing. Guess you don't have to be GGG to give advice these days.

Also, I really liked how you basically told SOS that she should show her boyfriend that she's insecure and borderline bipolar by liking something and then getting shitty over it later. That's exactly what she needs to do to have a healthy relationship.

I think danny boy needs his nap before he responds to any more letters because this week and the last two have all been shit.

Posted by Yawgmoth on January 5, 2011 at 12:02 PM · Report

57

SFOgirl, I strongly suggest you and your partner watch Penny Flame's Expert Guide to Rough Sex. My partner and I watched it before trying anything involving the neck, and I'm pretty sure it saved us a few injuries.

Posted by Rob in Iowa on January 5, 2011 at 12:05 PM · Report

58

Dan said to BBP, "He's using porn to get his juices flowing, BBP, and those juices are ultimately flowing into you. Perhaps you should be grateful to porn for the way it's improved your sex life."

Uhmmm... not necessarily.

I've been married for 31 years to a milquetoast, unimaginative man who refused to have anything other than vanilla. I watched my sanity and sexual desire wither on the vine, so to speak, because, try as I might, I found nothing desirable about him after 20 years. Needless to say, our sex life suffered. He started using porn to "get his juices flowing" and yes, those juices came to me, alright... without benefit of any kind of foreplay. He just climbs on and... you know the rest.

I think you are all missing the point of BBP's problem with his use of porn. They're having more sex because of his lack of interest in her needs or pleasure. He's only interested in doing what it takes to get himself aroused. There's an issue bigger here than simply being too tired for sex.

Posted by WitheredRose on January 5, 2011 at 12:22 PM · Report

59

Dan said to BBP, "He's using porn to get his juices flowing, BBP, and those juices are ultimately flowing into you. Perhaps you should be grateful to porn for the way it's improved your sex life."

Uhmmm... not necessarily.

I've been married for 31 years to a milquetoast, unimaginative man who refused to have anything other than vanilla. I watched my sanity and sexual desire wither on the vine, so to speak, because, try as I might, I found nothing desirable about him after 20 years. Needless to say, our sex life suffered. He started using porn to "get his juices flowing" and yes, those juices came to me, alright... without benefit of any kind of foreplay. He just climbs on and... you know the rest.

I think you are all missing the point of BBP's problem with his use of porn. They're having more sex because of his lack of interest in her needs or pleasure. He's only interested in doing what it takes to get himself aroused. There's an issue bigger here than simply being too tired for sex.

Posted by WitheredRose on January 5, 2011 at 12:27 PM · Report

60

@57

I totally agree with you, but I may be biased since Penny Flame is my absolute favoritest porn star ever. But I've seen scenes from that video you mentioned, and it's pretty hot as well as educational.

Posted by Catface Meowmers on January 5, 2011 at 12:30 PM · Report

61

@EricaP

[sigh]

I see your "advice" here every week, and it kind of makes me cringe. So you're in a long-term relationship that opened up and you love it. Wonderful. (Really wonderful, not sarcastic wonderful... I wish every monogamous partnership that opened up had the same success). But everyone is not you, and people's experiences are diverse.

Please, please stop telling people how "men" and "women" act. If you should have learned anything by being in an open relationship, it's that we are all individuals and social norms need not apply. You have chosen to disregard the norm of monogamy, which is a huge "fuck you" to the establishment. Awesome! (Again, real awesome, not sarcastic awesome). And if you are a part of any kind of poly / non-monogamous / queer / socially subversive / unconventional community, you will undoubtedly meet people who buck all kinds of social conventions. Well, those of us who buck conventional sexuality tend to shirk gender norms too. Because they're all related (and if you look hard enough, it can all be traced back to some pretty anti-feminist ideology).

So long story longer, the same historical precedents that gave monogamy its primacy, the ones you've chosen to disregard despite society's pressure, also created and reinforce gender norms. You've already seen flaws in the "moral superiority" of monogamy.... its not much further to see how many of them apply to gender norms as well.

Posted by offfwhite on January 5, 2011 at 12:32 PM · Report

62

offfwhite @61 - I totally agree with you that this isn't a men-are-promiscuous / women-are-undersexed thing. Lots of different kinds of people, lots of different kinds of sexuality. But if I start putting in nuance, I lose half my audience. Then I'd be the one getting into fights about "heteronormativity" from the other thread...

The fact remains, a large majority of the people complaining about not getting enough sex are men. And a large majority of those men are in relationships with women. So that's who I'm speaking to, as that's who I've been meeting now that we've opened up our marriage.

A whole big bunch of fucking cheaters. And I'm just optimistic enough to think that if I can get my point across, then one or two good marriages will last instead of the 40 year old wife feeling betrayed and leaving her husband.

Posted by EricaP on January 5, 2011 at 12:44 PM · Report

63

@EricaP

Then you should be advocating introspection and communication, and most importantly not assuming people's responses and preferences based on social trends. Challenging people to actually explore why their sexual needs, practices, preferences, etc are they way they are is far more productive than assuming they fit the mold and hoping they change without adjusting the mold.

Posted by offfwhite on January 5, 2011 at 12:52 PM · Report

64

@58 I agree.

Dan, I bet you wouldn't be so pro-porn if gay porn were as bad as straight porn.

Gay porn is good. The guys are really enjoying themselves. Gay porn centers around what gay guys enjoy doing, and so gay guys watching it learn more about how to have good gay sex.

Straight porn is bad. The women are generally not into it. There's no attempt to focus on what gets women off. Straight guys who watch too much porn think that's how sex with women should be and they're often worse at sex than guys who don't watch porn. They become less aware of how to discern when a woman is turned on, and they think women come pre-shaved and ready to drop to their knees because there's a penis present. They aren't, and the internet is doing a disservice to straight sex.

Posted by beccoid on January 5, 2011 at 1:25 PM · Report

65

Apparently I'm only the second person here to wonder why Dan said choking is bad. I know Dan doesn't respond to these comments, anyone else have any idea why he would say something like that? I was quite surprised...

Posted by devon rocketship

on January 5, 2011 at 1:27 PM · Report

66

Okay, I don't know much about the BDSM world, but I don't understand how the encounter SOS described could possibly be considered a dom-sub situation. Or if it was, then she was the dom. She and her boyfriend were cuddling, he was stroking her, and she decided she wanted to masturbate while he continued to watch television. He agreed to go along with this. I don't doubt that they have a dom-sub sex life in general, but this behavior doesn't sound very sub to me.

Posted by second opinion on January 5, 2011 at 1:32 PM · Report

67

Okay, I'm not well-informed about the BDSM scene, but I don't understand how the situation SOS describes could be considered a dom-sub encounter. Or if it was, then she was the dom. She and her boyfriend were mutually cuddling, and she asked him to go on watching television while she masturbated. He agreed to go along with this. I don't doubt that they have a dom-sub sex life in general, but where is that evident in this situation?

Posted by imho on January 5, 2011 at 1:38 PM · Report

68

@65 Why choking is dangerous. Here's the opinion of Jay Wiseman, who has been called multiple times to testify as an expert witness in BDSM (alleged homicide) cases:

http://www.jaywiseman.com/SEX_BDSM_Breat…

With a healthy subject:

The odds of five seconds of strangulation or suffocation causing cardiac arrest are really, really, really low, but not zero. (A suffocation death from such a brief period is likely caused by the Valsalva effect, discussed below.)

The odds of 30 seconds of strangulation or suffocation causing cardiac arrest are really, really low, but not zero. (Again, a death due to this brief a period of suffocation would likely have a Valsalva component to it.)

The odds of one minute of strangulation or suffocation causing cardiac arrest are really low, but not zero.

The odds of 90 seconds of strangulation or suffocation causing cardiac arrest are low, but not zero.

The odds of two minutes of strangulation or suffocation causing cardiac arrest are, well, maybe those odds, they are not so low.

The odds of more than two minutes of strangulation or suffocation killing someone are, well, yeah, now it wouldn't be too surprising if we had a major problem on our hands.

At five minutes, we very likely in serious trouble.

At ten minutes, there is likely little doubt.

At beyond ten minutes, there is virtually no doubt whatsoever.

Posted by EricaP on January 5, 2011 at 1:57 PM · Report

69

@63: Great, you can get out there and challenge people "to explore why their sexual needs, practices, preferences, etc are they way they are."

Meanwhile, I'm going to keep speaking to the guys who know what they want (more sex, with more women), but aren't ready to admit it even to their partners, let alone explore the deep-seated reasons for their desires.

I just think some fraction of those guys (the cheaters I run into) will be happier if they find the balls to tell the truth to their wives (whom I don't meet). (Like the guy @50.)

Sorry for being an internet bore about it.

Posted by EricaP on January 5, 2011 at 2:06 PM · Report

70

@54

Choking is dangerous, sad to say. Part of the reason why it's dangerous is because it's hard to control or observe when it's gone a little too far. And I don't mean too far as in "oh shit, I killed my partner," but in "oh, we noticed nothing out of the ordinary by now my girlfriend has minor brain damage." Being a little rough in the neck area is risky. There are blood vessels that when even gently compressed deprive the brain of oxygen, and that will cause damage, especially if this is a regular part of your sex life. It's the kind of thing that's unlikely to turn you into a drooling vegetable, but it's terrible for your long-term health. As I said before, you will probably not notice when you accrue tiny bits of brain damage over a long period of time. There is also the much smaller risk of unintentionally causing very serious, immediate damage or death, but I don't think that happens very often.

Posted by chicago girl on January 5, 2011 at 2:09 PM · Report

71

@54 and 65:

Mistress Matisse recently wrote a comment on the subject of breathplay, here. Basically, there are two schools of thought on breathplay in the BDSM community: one that holds that it can be done more or less safely, and one that holds it's a flat-out bad idea. Being the risk-averse, brain-cell-hoarding worrywart that I am, I fall into the latter camp. Of course, that's just my two cents, what the hell do I know, et cetera et cetera.

Posted by echizen_kurage on January 5, 2011 at 2:15 PM · Report

72

And by "comment," I meant "column." DAMN IT.

Posted by echizen_kurage on January 5, 2011 at 2:17 PM · Report

73

Dan is right, break up Stuck. I dated a man who was a virgin when we met for 5 years. I knew he wanted to sleep with other people. Conveniently for us both, I fell out of love with him and wanted him to sleep with other people. We broke up, and he had his three years of debauchery, and is now in a happy committed relationship with someone else, after having plowed through scores of chicks.
Sure, he realized that what we had was amazing and he probably should have wanted to marry me when we were together, and that probably sucked, but in the end I'm happy, he's happy, and thank goodness, he won't be running out on his future wife when she's pregnant to go sow his wild oats.
Sow away. Before marriage, before kids.

Posted by abbakabba on January 5, 2011 at 2:35 PM · Report

74

ps choking is bad because breath play can be extremely dangerous - ie death - if it goes too far. Some people get off on that, while others find the risks of death or brain damage or coma sexually unappealing.

Posted by abbakabba on January 5, 2011 at 2:37 PM · Report

75

@46 -- Very eloquently written. More often than not, when I hear people getting preachy about how unrealistic monogamy is, I end up thinking: wow, grow up. I understand that only having sex with one person "goes against our primal natures" or whatever, but so does a LOT of stuff that I think we could all agree makes society more livable. And at some point, maturity needs to be factored into the equation as well. From my perspective, if you want to be with someone, BE with that person, and if you'd rather fuck other people, LEAVE the relationship and go fuck other people. Just be an adult and decide what you want.

Or maybe we should all just fuck everyone who looks even remotely fuckable and spend all day gorging on junk food because it feels good.

Priorities, people.

Posted by Amanda on January 5, 2011 at 2:44 PM · Report

76

"My guy wants to come in my mouth. I am fine with the act, but he produces a high volume of ejaculate..."

He won't ejaculate as much if he had an orgasm a few hours before. If he hasn't come in a few days, he'll have more stored up.

Posted by pacific on January 5, 2011 at 2:51 PM · Report

77

@75, what if two people love each other and want to spend their lives together, but they still want to play tennis with other people from time to time? Is that allowed? Or would that open the door to some crazy universe where they play tennis with anyone who looks like they might know which end of the racket is up? Plus, they spend all day gorging on junk food, because that's really relevant.

Posted by EricaP on January 5, 2011 at 3:03 PM · Report

78

@75 - well, thankfully, some of us out here recognize that there is room for a happy medium between "fuck only one person for the rest of your days on earth" and "fuck everyone who looks even remotely fuckable". And that being a little restless sexually doesn't always have to mean it's time to leave someone you love behind forever. And that sometimes "being an adult" can accommodate having a relationship with one person while occasionally engaging in some play with someone else (safely, and with all parties aware and consenting).

We have our priorities, thanks, and we're doing just fine. We've just arrived at a different place than you have.

Posted by really? Enjoying sex = "immature"? Go figure. on January 5, 2011 at 3:06 PM · Report

79

@ EricaP -- Shouldn't you be busy having a better, more enlightened sex life than everyone else?

Posted by Amanda on January 5, 2011 at 3:08 PM · Report

80

Funny column. Especially like the last response.

Posted by slidebone on January 5, 2011 at 3:08 PM · Report

81

@EricaP, you come as condescending, like as a woman in a monogamous relationship, I'm wrong. I'm seriously glad you're happy with your open relationship, but that doesn't make all other forms of relationships wrong. Sure, I know my boyfriend thinks about fucking other people. I know I do (and yes, woman do too. It's not ONLY men). I think about it, he thinks about it, and then I think about it, and then we think about each other. We are very open with each other about these feelings. We both had a couple years of playing around and it wasn't fulfilling. I have never enjoyed sex more with anyone else and he feels the same way. That's okay. Quit pushing your life style choices on others!! You aren't better than monogamous couple or "more evolved" like so many polyamorous and open people. Everyone has a right to find their own happiness, just like you!!!

Posted by Roadflare on January 5, 2011 at 3:14 PM · Report

82

*They THINK their more evolved.* I was super annoyed when I wrote this. Sorry!

Posted by Roadflare on January 5, 2011 at 3:18 PM · Report

83

@75: Except that some people want non-monogamous relationships. It has nothing to do with "maturity," it's just a preference.

@66: She gets turned on by being ignored, as if he doesn't care about her. It's a form of being demeaned or humiliated. In BDSM scenes, it's often the sub who decides what he or she wants, plans it out, and asks the dom to go along with it.

Posted by BlackRose on January 5, 2011 at 3:32 PM · Report

84

#8, try Nofauxxx...

#19, how do you know this about newbienudes? I've been a member there for five years and have given them my credit number too. but I've never had issues with their business practices.

Posted by teamsleep on January 5, 2011 at 3:38 PM · Report

85

Definitely agree with Dan's response to BBP! My husband and I had some great (and much more frequent than usual) sex while on vacation in Spain. This is surely in part because we were less busy and more relaxed than we are during our regular working lives, but he also attributes his increased desire to being out and about amongst a bunch of highly attractive, scantily clad young Barcelonan women. All that eye candy definitely worked up his appetite and he'd pounce me almost daily the moment we got back to our hotel room. I had no problem with him looking, because I got to reap the benefits, so I feel grateful to all those sexy senoritas who helped make our vacation extra enjoyable!

Posted by gratitude on January 5, 2011 at 3:38 PM · Report

86

I too do not enjoy swallowing, we've basically worked it out by me finishing with my hand OR even better, titty fucking. Works like a charm and I don't have to swallow shit! or come

Posted by burdlemore on January 5, 2011 at 3:49 PM · Report

87

@79 and 81-- I'm not trying to put down your life, I'm trying to speak to guys who are cheating on their partners rather than telling them the truth. Since your partners are happily monogamous -- more power to you. Go enjoy your happy lives!

Posted by EricaP on January 5, 2011 at 4:15 PM · Report

88

"Sword fights, adoptions, pets, Mistresses, faux-incest/pseudo-bestiality role-playing games—a lot has changed at Liberty University since I was an undergrad."

Line of the year (so far).

Posted by careful reader! on January 5, 2011 at 4:15 PM · Report

89

@86, if your blowjobs lead to swallowing shit, I think you're doing it wrong...

Posted by EricaP on January 5, 2011 at 4:23 PM · Report

90

Agree with 34 about Stuck. It sounds like they aren't very compatible anyway, but just because you're suddenly single doesn't mean you get the wild monkey sex you want, with the people you want all the time. It doesn't really sound to me like he wants to never be monogamous, just that he wishes he could've started his long term monogamous relationship later in life. He'll just have to eat the grass and see.

Posted by divine_miss_em on January 5, 2011 at 4:37 PM · Report

91

@8, seeing as you're Canadian, maybe you'll find this article interesting:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/fami…

I usually find this journalist to be on the annoying/misogynist side, but this one isn't too bad.

Posted by oryx on January 5, 2011 at 5:17 PM · Report

92

@ Doctor Darcy

Did you even consider that it could have been Robin who asked EPL to be the pet? I think you're being highly condescending considering that you don't have all of the information about their relationship. She may have had an interest in Jennifer but it doesn't mean that she didn't care about Robin who was also her "mother". After all, she did ask if she should just wait until Robin decides to allow the relationship again, so it sounds as if Robin had told Jennifer to tell her to end the pet/mistress relationship for the time.

Posted by EPL trying to seperate them? Probably not. on January 5, 2011 at 5:38 PM · Report

93

Completely agree with 64... I had a completely misguided relationship with someone who allayed his insecurities through an over-dependence on conventional (and possibly exploitative, since we're talking about it) straight porn. Thankfully I realized he was a d-bag and kicked him to the curb, but not before he had left me with a pile of my own insecurities about physical quirks which neither I nor any of my lovers had ever thought to question before, and which took an irritating (read: greater than zero) amount of time to work through. Never again! There's porn watching, and then there's porn watching, and I agree that Dan might not always be as sensitive as he could be to the difference between the two. Fascinating point about the possible gay/straight porn divide, 64, I'd never thought of it that way.

Posted by campbell33 on January 5, 2011 at 6:31 PM · Report

94

@ 24 google LARP. They're a group of people who like to sew corsets, make foam swords, then go camping and run around in costumes chasing each other through the woods and beating each other up. Honestly, it's awesome fun, makes you feel like a kid again. Obviously, it attracts people from a certain demographic, mainly pagan feminists, history majors, geeks, and BDSM enthusiasts.
Some of the groups are boring and weird, and others are interesting and fun. Two of the best I'm familiar with are SCA (society for creative anachromism), which is the most well-known and historically accurate, and Underworld, which is a Toronto-based, fantasy oriented version that's a little more physically rough and tough (you sleep in your chainmail with one eye open, unlike other games where fighting ends at dusk).

for more informations go check out
http://www.sca.org/
http://www.underworldlarp.ca/

Posted by Caralain on January 5, 2011 at 6:32 PM · Report

95

@74 when people say they're into "choking" during sex, are most of them talking about breathplay? My sense is no. Whenever I've been "choked" during sex, it wasn't hard enough to affect breathing or speech at all. I wouldn't enjoy someone "playing" with my ability to breath for even a second, but it's quite possible to put a little bit of pressure on someone's neck without actually cutting off breath. Just like you can tie someone's wrists without cutting off their circulation, etc. I do believe it could be dangerous of the dominant partner is drunk, doesn't know his own strength, or can't be trusted to make sure he's not *really* choking you.

Posted by Gudrun Brangwen on January 5, 2011 at 8:35 PM · Report

96

Lawrence fan @95

You don't need to actually cut off breath to cut off oxygen to the brain. Applying even gentle pressure will do that, and while this is unlikely to kill you, it can easily cause minor brain damage. If it's a regular part of your sex life, you can accrue more serious brain damage over time. A person can weigh the risks and benefits of choking and decide that the benefits win the day, but it is never a safe activity. There's a reason why it's possible to knock someone out by applying pressure to the neck while not cutting off their breath.

Posted by chicago girl on January 5, 2011 at 9:45 PM · Report

97

@96 Wrong, you need enough pressure to cut off blood flow to the brain for long enough for the brain to use all the oxygen it currently has. This is very unlikely to happen from gentle pressure.

I'm not going to downplay the risks of real breathplay or carotid massage (cutting off the blood flow to the brain) and I won't wade into the debate on whether it can be done safely. However rough play around the neck is not the same thing and is very unlikely to have any long lasting effects if done in a reasonable manner.

Posted by Noadi

on January 5, 2011 at 11:27 PM · Report

98

EricaP (@69)...

Your intention is good. In human services it's called "meeting people where they're at," and it's a very respectful way to help empower people to help themselves. However, your execution is flawed.... you're actually meeting people where you assume they're at, which is actually where you are at, which is actually the opposite of meeting people where they're at.

Posted by offfwhite on January 6, 2011 at 6:27 AM · Report

99

@97

No, gentle pressure can cause minor brain damage (and all gentle pressure to the neck restricts blood flow to the brain). What actually knocks a person out faster than oxygen deprivation is glucose deprivation, and both of these happen very, very quickly--with glucose, 3-4 seconds is all it takes. You don't actually have to lose consciousness to be at a risk for brain damage, and you don't have to completely cut off blood flow to hurt the brain. You are statistically unlikely to suffer noticeable brain damage from one instance of rough play around the neck, but if you do it a lot it will probably build up over time. People are free to try and do it in a reasonable manner, but since it's actually quite difficult to control this type of thing, it is an inherently unsafe activity. If you choose to do it, you should do it infrequently. There is a reason why Dan classifies all choking as "never a good idea." There is also the risk, however gentle the choking may be, that a person will lose control and cause serious damage or death. Since choking can escalate from relatively harmless to dangerous in a split second, the danger lies in the fact that a person need not lose total control for more than a moment to cause serious problems. It's sort of like leaving a tied-up person alone--always a poor idea, even if nothing actually goes wrong. Will you suffer brain damage, even minor damage, from rough play around the neck? There's a good chance you won't, from one instance alone. But it's a dangerous activity nonetheless. I realize this post is not very well written (caffeine taking awhile to kick in this morning), and I'm not trying to say that rough neck play will always hurt you, because it won't. But your cost-benefit analysis, if you are considering gentle choking, really ought to take into account the fact that you can very easily be hurt, and very quickly, with even gentle pressure. And, after all, you've only got the one brain.

More...

Posted by chicago girl on January 6, 2011 at 7:46 AM · Report

100

Note: I kept going back over and over this to add disclaimers. It'll probably still annoy folks. Oh well.

I am always baffled by the seeming truth that there are more low-sex-drive women than men. I mean, I believe it based on overwhelming evidence, but it seems so counterintuitive (and yes, I'm going from the relatively small sample set of myself, my sisters and mom--yeah, I wish I didn't know that, but we're a TMI family on the female side--and all my female friends, so a highly flawed set since I probably tend to hang out with women who are similar to me, just by the way friendships work). But . . . but . . . many if not most women have the *ability* (whether they're actually doing it more than once a day, or not, the plumbing is there) to be repeatedly if not multiorgasmic and have no refractory period. Even my highly-sexed 25-year-old boyfriend has never come more than 9 times in a day (and that was a highly atypical day, never repeated), and usually requires up to an hour before he's ready to go again . . . and once he taps out, he taps out. He's done. Women never need to be done. And yes, this assumes you know your body, like orgasms, have a willing partner, and don't get sore, overstimulated, or cranky, and NCIS isn't on. But still. Is it that weird?

Posted by AnathemaT on January 6, 2011 at 7:48 AM · Report

101

@98 - you're saying no one in the SL audience is where I was a year ago? Unwilling to let my husband have sex with other people, unwilling to leave him.

But with the help of my husband's honesty, I was able to face the fact that it wasn't about me. He loved me, I was great, and he still wanted sex with other people.

How can you be sure there's no one like that, part of a marriage like mine, out there listening?

Posted by EricaP on January 6, 2011 at 8:12 AM · Report

102

I'm just sick of the lesson our culture teaches women: if your husband wants sex with other women, then he doesn't love you, and you should leave him.

If most men will want sex with other women (maybe they won't all act on it, but the desire is there) and if you buy the line that that means he doesn't love you, then no wonder marriages end in divorce so often. Middle-aged women feel abandoned by their husbands, and in turn they abandon their husbands, leaving everyone unhappy and trying to support two households instead of one.

If women could just see that it's normal for their husband to want sex with other people, and it doesn't mean they've been abandoned, or that they're worthless or unsexy... I just think people could be a smidge happier in life.

Posted by EricaP on January 6, 2011 at 8:44 AM · Report

103

@EricaP...

Then why are you throwing women under the bus by suggesting that they exclusively need to change? And why are you telling men that honesty is all that's required of them? Relationships are complex. People (women, in the case of your targeted audience) aren't going to stop feeling betrayed because you suggest it may not be reasonable. Emotions are not reasonable reactions, they are emotional. And ultimatums (ultimata?) and non-negotiables (a la your comments in #11 and #15) are just as selfish and inconsiderate as lying.

If you need to generalize, how about this: People (men, women, children, and everything in between) want security in the things that are important to them. In this case, their relationships. If someone is trying to execute a change that may make the other/s feel insecure, don't you think actually addressing those insecurities is way more teamwork-focused than unapologetic honesty? Yes, honesty is super-important. But so is compassion. And compromise.

Ultimately your advice comes across as what it is: amateur. You have the benefit of your experience and perspective.... a sample-size of 1. Again, it's great that your experience opening up your marriage has been positive, and you want to help people learn the same lessons you've learned. But your context is unique, as everyone's is, and you just have not identified the biases you bring to the table (what we in the biz call "Values Clarification").

Posted by offfwhite on January 6, 2011 at 9:19 AM · Report

104

Dan! Quite a few people here point out that the pill can have a very serious negative effect on the sex drive.
In fact, Dan, I recently picked up a book that you published 15 years ago (by the way, on the photo in that book you look exactly the same as now! Good for you!). So, in it you reprint your answer to a young girl who is thinking to start on the pill and wondering about its side effects. You tell her all the good stuff, like her breast will get bigger and she will be happier overall, etc.
Well, I started taking the pill in my late 30s. I came from a country, Russia, where its use was not widespread, so I was very excited to start it! Sadly, in a few years I started getting a feeling that sex does not excite me any more. Being now in my 40s, I thought - that's it, I am so old, I am pre-menopausal! When I asked my doctor, she agreed. She said - just a couple years more for you! (The doctor was probably in the same condition, because she was almost happy to greet me into menopausal realm!)
Naturally, our sex life with my husband became worse and worse, compounding other relationship issues and soon we got separated. At that point I stopped taking the pill, for the lack of need... And guess what? It all came back at once, and in a couple months I became as horny as I was when I was young! I started wearing red and looking at men straight in the eye.
Is it a sad story or a happy one? I guess it's happy for me, but sooo bad for hundreds of other women who take the pill and may be in my position!!! Now I am reconnected with my husband, but it took a few years. During that time which were my "cougar" phase, I've been with so many young men, in their 20s and 30s, whose wives/girlfriends don't have any sex drives! These are all good men who were forced to cheat, their lives are so miserable! I suppose many women who went on the pill in their teens/early 20s didn't even have a chance to become real sexual beings... True, the pill gets the pregnancy rate down but at what cost?!
I will never suggest the pill to my teenage daughter. Thankfully there are other options available, such as safer IUDs.
Dan, it would be such a service to humanity if you could bring this to everyone attention in your column. I bet you are the only one who would dare to do so!!

More...

Posted by Naina on January 6, 2011 at 9:49 AM · Report

105

Offfwhite, what are you recommending I tell the cheaters or would-be cheaters I meet? They have made up their minds that they're going to solve their problems by having the sex they want, and lying to their wives. There are lots of these men. Lots. I don't sleep with them; are you saying I also can't advise them to be honest?

As for the emotional reactions, yes, they need to be recognized. But not pandered to. There are resources like the Ethical Slut, which helped me process my jealousy and figure out what I really wanted from my husband, so I could ask for that.

If someone tried to keep her partner from doing other activities with friends, that person would be called controlling. But our culture says sex is different; sex is only for the one person you love. So if he wants sex with someone else, then he no longer loves you. I call bullshit.

But I also call bullshit on the men who say that they are protecting their wives (whom they love) by lying to them.

Posted by EricaP on January 6, 2011 at 9:54 AM · Report

106

I think Stuck has some other issues than a girlfriend with a low sex drive. He is in his thrities and has been with this gal for 8 years. I'm guessing his desire to get it on with others has more to do with a stalled relationship rather than unfulfilled fanatasies. I agree with Dan, break up with her and go do what you need to do. Maybe your girlfriend can find a guy that excites her more and stimulates her libido; instead of the guy who instead of trying to help his girlfriend and be what she needs is more concerned on how he can get some.

Posted by chaz2000 on January 6, 2011 at 9:57 AM · Report

107

@offfwhite: Amen.

Posted by Rexy on January 6, 2011 at 10:10 AM · Report

108

Thanks to 9, 12, 16, 17, 19, 23, 30, 32, 42, 45, 84 and 91 for all the recommendations!

Posted by North of 49 on January 6, 2011 at 10:46 AM · Report

109

@EricaP

I recommend you share your experience for what it is... your experience. And leave the advice delivery to those who are qualified to give it and/or solicited for it.

(P.S. You may also want to re-read the Ethical Slut... you seem to have missed the theme of individuality stressed throughout. Not to mention the validation of female sexual expression.)

Posted by offfwhite on January 6, 2011 at 11:20 AM · Report

110

Fine. I've never denied that I'm just speaking from my experience. I've never claimed a mantle of social-work (oh, excuse me, "human services") authority. People who don't gain anything from my advice are free to ignore it, the same as any other poster on Slog.

It would have been helpful to me last March to know that someone else had gone through what I was going through and survived. That's why I post.

Posted by EricaP on January 6, 2011 at 11:42 AM · Report

111

@EricaP

Culture doesn't say that sex is different than all other activities, nature dictates that sex is different and special because it's the reason we're all here. As much as you want it to be, sex will never be tennis. Sorry.

I'm married and my husband and I *both* find ourselves feeling attracted to other people sometimes and we're both honest about it. We also know that for us, giving in to those temptations would lead to way more stress than it would be worth. The security we get from saving sex only for our relationship is ultimately more important to both of us than being able to fuck around with people we care about a lot less than each other. This is the case for a lot of people.

Posted by Amanda on January 6, 2011 at 11:54 AM · Report

112

@Offwhite and Amanda, Thank you!! You both explained how I was feeling about her comments much more eloquently than I did!! Exactly, everybody has a right to their own experiences. You have to remember that they are your experiences though, there's no need to generalize for everyone.

Posted by Roadflare on January 6, 2011 at 12:21 PM · Report

113

@Erica P: I am also a woman in an open marriage. I realized some time ago that I was nonmonogamous, and it took me a long time to work up the courage to tell my husband that I was interested in sleeping with other people. It took a year of talking about it and letting him think about it on his own, but he eventually came around to embrace the idea and now we both have happy additional relationships, and are even happier together.

I'm with you in advocating honesty for guys like Stuck. He clearly needs a different kind of relationship. I don't agree with you that he should follow it up by sleeping with someone before his girlfriend is on board with the idea. It took a really long time for my husband and I to agree on how to open our relationship, but it was worth waiting for him to be 100% on board with it before taking any action. If Stuck has tried everything and his girlfriend is just never going to come around, then he should break up with her. Saying, "Well, I'm going to fuck other people, you can leave if you want" doesn't seem respectful to me at all.

Posted by Lori E. on January 6, 2011 at 12:25 PM · Report

114

@EricaP: I'm not a hater though, I enjoy your comments and usually agree with you about pretty much everything.

Posted by Lori E. on January 6, 2011 at 12:28 PM · Report

115

@100: There is a genetic factor to sex drive, so it's not surprising that all the women in your family have a high sex drive. http://health.dailynewscentral.com/conte…

Posted by BlackRose on January 6, 2011 at 12:38 PM · Report

116

@100: Also, Elizabeth Lloyd's research on female sexuality and orgasms found that there's no correlation between orgasmic ability and high sex drive! So even very orgasmic women don't necessarily have a high sex drive, and some non-orgasmic women do.

Yes, the whole thing is weird, and I wish everyone could have a rich and fulfilling sexuality.

Posted by BlackRose on January 6, 2011 at 12:42 PM · Report

117

Thanks, Lori E. What my husband actually said, was "I'm going to fuck other women. Please don't leave."

Maybe that was disrespectful; it hurt like hell. But his honesty made it possible for me to continue to trust him, and otherwise I don't see how that would be possible.

But, you know what, here’s an olive branch:

I kind of knew this about him from when we were dating. Two months into our relationship, he asked if he could sleep with an ex-girlfriend, visiting from another part of the country. I said yes, and cried all night, alone over at my place. Then we had two years of dating, and 14 years of marriage, during which time we were both monogamous, though he liked porn and strip-clubs, and that was fine with me.

All this to say, when he explained what he wanted, last spring – it wasn't as completely out of the blue as it would have been for some other couples. I don't know if monogamy / nonmonogamy is an orientation, something innate that you can't change... but if it is, I guess I sort of knew it about my husband from that time with the ex-girlfriend. I knew he had a wandering eye, even if we joked about "looking but not touching" during the first 14 years of marriage. That joke's not so funny any more.

So, maybe he married me in part because he thought, in the end, I'd be able to accept his wandering eye and even his wandering dick. And now I have.

But if he were someone else, someone who had sworn that he could only love one person and could only have sex with the one person he loved... as perhaps the men in your lives have done... then I can see that it would feel right to end the relationship as soon as he talked about having sex with someone else. I don’t know. That wasn't right for me, but I can see how other people would feel differently.

More...

Posted by EricaP on January 6, 2011 at 1:19 PM · Report

118

@58, what makes you assume that? All she said was that her self esteem was crushed because he watched porn and that they're having more sex. She never said anything about whether he was watching demeaning porn, or that they were having sex that she didn't enjoy. Judging by the rest of the letter, I'd definitely expect her to mention that the sex they were having is bad for her, if it is. You're taking what she said and running with it in a direction that she never points.

Posted by doodle4395 on January 6, 2011 at 1:24 PM · Report

119

re: Stuck
"I'm a straight male who skipped the sleeping around phase and went straight to long-term boyfriend. Now in my 30s, I find myself wanting to make up for lost time... She has a low sex drive and doesn't want to waste what little she has on other people. I'm stuck: Part of me thinks I can't be happy sexually having never had a sexually adventurous phase, ...
Stuck
Break up, I guess."

I'm in a similar situation- never dated, virgin until 21, first gf ended up several years living together, another long- term relationship since with someone I'm still friends with, but in retrospect, was likely quite the unintentionally emotionally abusive type... and 'cold' in bed... and the clincher, I'm now 7yr sober after an extensive abusive relationship with vodka, mostly...
now I'm 40 and feel I need to "make up for lost time"...

I'm not in a relationship now, but i do want to append onto Dan's advice if I may:

do NOT try to date any chicks in your age range: they will most likely be ready-mades (w/kid already, established in job/pattern/lifestyle/child rearing/divorce proceedings/what have you) or sharpening their talons to get an until-death-do-us-part grip on the next 'whoever' comes their way

this is the feeling I've had in my experiences
women my age range (I've had a physical attraction to) are just as I've said; the few low-mid twentysomethings I've had some normal social interactions with, with whom I've felt there was something between us..
well until just recently I'd dismissed these interactions because I felt some guilt of impropriety...
but I've decided 'fuck that'- and to just go ahead and try to
(by impropriety I mean, their emotional immaturity, doe-y-eyed-ness, etc, not legally inappropriate)

if you dump your gf, set in your mind to use your age advantage - not to emphasize your inexperience- and start hitting on those daft college barely able to drink girls at the coffee bar that you see pass you that immature "oohh cute older guy" glance and slaughter them with your emotional maturity

even better- after getting to know some girl for a bit, cop to her the absolute truth! your story is gold to impressionable young female minds!!
here's your story:
"hi there coffee shop girl I met a week ago and've Facebooked with since, let me tell you the truth now- honestly, I'm not very experienced... I just broke up with gf who was my first... took my virginity... honestly I'm just trying to make up for lost time..."

9 out of 10 the girl answers something thusly:
"well wow I'm so glad you're being honest- you know, I've been with a couple guys, but they were all immature jerks... not like you... you've been so nice to me, let me help you out...
as a matter of fact, I suspected something since we've started talking... I even talked it over with my hot roommate with whom I'd had some lesbian experimentation, we've even talked about a threesome maybe with some honest mature and deserving guy"

I mean, not that this is a verbatim guarantee- but I met a girl on FB, ended up on a long weekend together, I was perfectly honest... and she f-d my brains out- best sex I'd ever had- seriously (not that there's much experience to measure against, but), I was 39 and had never really even gotten a blowjob before (no, 5 seconds of oral play followed by unfulfilling woman-mounting-me does NOT constitute bj ex-gfs
my first sexual experience at 21 was a full-fledged bj by virginity-taking gf, and I barely remember much other than sheer panic and awe at what a nice bj it must be b/c she swallowed
and then this one at age 39-40
whoopee

if you split w/ gf, hit the coffee shops, sharpen and retract the claws, and look for the girls no older than 25, max, given your age
look for the chicks who are either easily manipulated, sexually charged, or both
does this sound mean? you betcha- fuckit
don't pander- look at every chick you're attracted to like you're about to rip her clothes off
either they'll be creeped/scared off (probably because of a now hormonal mothering protective instinct), Wichita will be good- because it'll make more room for your prey: those meandering witless, hot bods, thrift store retro-80s leggings- yadda yadda
pounce on that shit- chew and spit it out

right now with your current gf the "low sex drive" bs is probably largely due to her going through some experiences like I've just described- and she probably loved every minute of it

play nice- but get out there and ravage some pussy

More...

Posted by pjp on January 6, 2011 at 1:40 PM · Report

120

There are many valuable ways to have a relationship.

When anyone insists that their way of having a relationship is "inevitable," "must be that way," etc, I wonder what the problem is, exactly. Because there is a huge difference between "My open relationship and nonmonogamy have been very fulfilling for my partner and I, and maybe if given a chance others would find it to be so also," and "All men have *needs* (not wants, not attractions) to have sex with multiple women concurrently and all women should recognize that and accept it. It's inevitable! My relationship is this way and YOURS MUST BE TOO!"

It's really no much more appealing than allegedly straight people who insist that gay sex is so appealing it should be banned or else everyone will do it, when BEING STRAIGHT IS INEVITABLE AND NATURAL AND YOU MUST BE TOO!

Or people who insist that monogamy and lifelong marriage is the ONLY WAY AND YOU PEOPLE WHO INSIST ON MULTIPLE PARTNERS ARE UNNATURAL AND FAILING TO RECOGNIZE YOUR TRUE SELF!

Or married people who insist that SINGLE PEOPLE MUST GET MARRIED NOW BECAUSE INEVITABLY YOU WILL!

People who insist that their relationship style is RIGHT, not just for them, but for everyone else, and that their own sexual desires are INEVITABLY the sexual desires of everybody else, usually are trying to overcompensate for their own unhappiness with their relationship.

Seriously. If you're happy being nonmonogamous, that's great. But when you insist that every man really needs to be nonmonogamous and every woman who doesn't like it needs to accept it because you did.....well, meh.

Posted by ladidaaaa on January 6, 2011 at 1:47 PM · Report

121

There are many valuable ways to have a relationship.

When anyone insists that their way of having a relationship is "inevitable," "must be that way," etc, I wonder what the problem is, exactly. Because there is a huge difference between "My open relationship and nonmonogamy have been very fulfilling for my partner and I, and maybe if given a chance others would find it to be so also," and "All men have *needs* (not wants, not attractions) to have sex with multiple women concurrently and all women should recognize that and accept it. It's inevitable! My relationship is this way and YOURS MUST BE TOO!"

It's really no much more appealing than allegedly straight people who insist that gay sex is so appealing it should be banned or else everyone will do it, when BEING STRAIGHT IS INEVITABLE AND NATURAL AND YOU MUST BE TOO!

Or people who insist that monogamy and lifelong marriage is the ONLY WAY AND YOU PEOPLE WHO INSIST ON MULTIPLE PARTNERS ARE UNNATURAL AND FAILING TO RECOGNIZE YOUR TRUE SELF!

Or married people who insist that SINGLE PEOPLE MUST GET MARRIED NOW BECAUSE INEVITABLY YOU WILL!

People who insist that their relationship style is RIGHT, not just for them, but for everyone else, and that their own sexual desires are INEVITABLY the sexual desires of everybody else, usually are trying to overcompensate for their own unhappiness with their relationship.

Seriously. If you're happy being nonmonogamous, that's great. But when you insist that every man really needs to be nonmonogamous and every woman who doesn't like it needs to accept it because you did.....well, meh.

Posted by ladidaaaa on January 6, 2011 at 1:49 PM · Report

122

@119 wow. When I ask people to be honest, that's so not what I meant. Wow.

Posted by EricaP on January 6, 2011 at 2:23 PM · Report

123

EricaP: I don't think that people should automatically end a relationship if one person wants to be non-monogamous, obviously, since I'm in an open relationship. I do think that people can be honest about what they want without taking action until their partner is in agreement, that's all I was trying to say.

Posted by Lori E. on January 6, 2011 at 2:23 PM · Report

124

@119: As one forty-something male to another, let me say: you sound like a fucking creep. Women of all ages should run, not walk, away from you. Get some therapy to deal with your deeply entrenched misogyny.

Posted by Backyard Bombardier on January 6, 2011 at 2:50 PM · Report

125

@123 -- that worked for you, which is awesome. And in some sense it's what we did too: he told me that it was going to happen, and then we talked and talked and talked. And the first time he was going to have sex with someone without me along, he stopped when I texted to say that I couldn't deal. But he never said, "I'll wait until you're okay with it," leaving it up to me to decide the timing. It was more like "what do you need in order to be okay with it? Let's figure it out."

Also, in line with my olive branch above @117, it's probably relevant that we have a D/s relationship.

Posted by EricaP on January 6, 2011 at 3:38 PM · Report

126

@125: Yes, it's extremely relevant, especially if it's D/s in areas other than strictly sex. (Even if it's sexually-related, but not just physical actions.) D/s relationships have different dynamics, and submitting to relationship changes, as well as expressing a prerogative to one-sided relationship changes, carry a different (and much more positive/sexual) charge, than they would in a non-D/s relationship.

Posted by ladidaaaa on January 6, 2011 at 3:43 PM · Report

127

@8

If it hasn't been mentioned already: Homegrown. That is the name of a production company that specializes in amateur porn.

While some of it is truly terrible, and some of it may be exploitative, it is often real people actually having fun, and is hot.

Posted by Ophian on January 6, 2011 at 3:55 PM · Report

128

offfwhite,

You don't get it. It's not the sameness of the genders that's important, it's the differences.

Posted by Hunter78 on January 6, 2011 at 4:24 PM · Report

129

Dan The Man!!!

1. THANK YOU SO MUCH for helping me with my log out problem!!! I was on a computer at a local public library. xoxoxoxoxo

2. Great advice to GSP. I'm taking note. Here's another dumb question: I have a serious gag reflex when seated in the dentist's chair. Swallowing come--even in little baby-kitty 3 TB. amounts--has been difficult for me, too. like GSP.
So...uh...(I know I'm walking RIGHT into this!)because I have a late July birthday, and am therefore quite leonine, does this make me a leotard, too (remember--I said it was going to be a dumb question)?

Posted by auntie grizelda on January 6, 2011 at 6:08 PM · Report

130

Dan

I know it's probably never going to seem like a good idea to tell people that it's fine to choke each other. But having listened to your podcasts and read a lot of your archive, I know that the reason you fear all breath play is based on Jay Wiseman's "expert" opinion. Jay, despite writing some good bdsm books, is not an expert on this subject, has no credible evidence to back up his position, and goes out of his way to ignore the overwhelming evidence that there are ways to practice breath play that are as safe as other sex acts that we don't think about twice. A truly enormous number of judo/bjj/mma participants are choking each other silly all over the world without anyone suffering ill effects. Those interested in breath play should go to some practices with these people, and it'll work out fine.

Posted by bjj lawyer on January 6, 2011 at 6:58 PM · Report

131

People rarely do judo in private bedrooms, after the use of alcohol & drugs, with people whose health status they may not know very well.

Jay has in fact been hired as an expert in homicide trials, where the defendants claimed to have just been doing consensual breath play.

Posted by EricaP on January 6, 2011 at 7:24 PM · Report

132

EricaP has been a thread Nazi on this post. To EricaP: Chill out and stop monopolizing the thread when it's obvious that most people don't want to hear your advice and generalizations. Some people come to these threads to see the advice of many people, not wade through your defensive posturing. Be in an open relationship and enjoy it (I think more people could benefit from opening up), but stop burying other posts in your haste to dole out advice and opinions.

Posted by breelligerent on January 6, 2011 at 7:56 PM · Report

133

119

Resentful misogynist much? I don't doubt that such an approach would get you laid with young, "easily manipulated and sexually charged" girls - but quantity is not always quality. I will readily concede that large amounts of sex along with variety will yield experience, but this does not warrant the complete disrespect towards and objectification of women as you clearly described here. I am appalled.

Instead of preying upon young girls who don't know any better, guys like stuck (if he were to break up) should honestly associate with emotionally mature women (cut out the 25 and under bullshit, age is irrelevant) who know what they want and are seeking similar nsa relationships. Keep in mind that women sexually peak in their 30s - at which point they generally have more experience, know what they want, and know how to better pleasure the men they sleep with.

Mutual respect is necessary, always.

Posted by kikibe on January 6, 2011 at 8:06 PM · Report

134

Erica P.: Jay HAS been hired as an expert witness for more than one trial. Sadly, that's not the same thing as actually being an expert. And no, people don't do judo in the bedroom. But a choke is a choke, whether you do it on the mats or in bed. And sure, you shouldn't do it with someone while you're on drugs. But that goes for a lot of things, don't you think?

Posted by bjj lawyer on January 6, 2011 at 8:29 PM · Report

135

@134, being accepted by a court as an expert makes him an expert. Courts, do, of course, find experts on each side of many issues, so it doesn't prove he's right, but he is an expert.
- EricaP, thinking of changing my name to EricaThreadNazi (thanks for the idea @132!), as part of my transition to full-time Slog troll.

Posted by EricaP on January 6, 2011 at 9:40 PM · Report

136

And, by the way, this thread is mine. Start to finish. Check it out, bitches.

Posted by EricaP on January 6, 2011 at 10:22 PM · Report

138

Is it just me or do other people want to slap women who don't have any confidence in themselves and their own sexual appeal?

Who gives a fuck if your boyfriend looks at porn? How does that make you less sexy? Those are pictures. You are a woman. Or maybe one who is too dumb to get that.

How about this... YOU look at porn. Send him links of shit you want to try.

Stop being so insecure.

Posted by jnurse on January 6, 2011 at 11:50 PM · Report

139

@136: I just want to say that you're awesome.

Posted by BlackRose on January 7, 2011 at 12:07 AM · Report

140

Erica P.: we're going to just have to disagree here. I don't for a minute believe that convincing courts that Jay should be allowed to present expert rather than lay testimony is the same as him having real expertise in the matter. He's not a doctor, much less a doctor with special expertise in the matter, he's not an accomplished submission grappler or someone who would have a lot of knowledge about the application of chokes...as best I can tell he's a former paramedic and a non-practicing graduate of a non-accredited law school.

But I guess what we call him is less important than the fact that he has no credible evidence to support his ideas. What he does is fear mongering, plain and simple. His constant refrain that he knows no way that breath play could be practiced with zero chance of death is meaningless given that he never compares the risk of death with that of any other activity. People die every year walking up stairs, taking a shower, and having sex in the missionary position with the lights off. He doesn't go out of his way to claim (with what would be equal truth) that there's no way to do these things with zero chance of death, or mention any number of sports or recreations that carry a more meaningful risk of death or injury.

On the other side of things, we have a population of hundreds of thousands (at least!) of grapplers of one sort or another who apply chokes on each other many times a week (both cooperatively to practice technique, and during resistant sparrng), occasionally even to the point of unconsciousness, and NONE of them are suddenly dropping dead. Within this population are lots of different body types, lots of different ages, lots of different fitness levels. And in the over 100 years of judo players training like this there seem to be no known deaths. That tells me that there's a population doing chokes right, and who can be learned from.

There are also studies suggesting that these judo players are, unlike boxers, not suffering any brain damage. To give two examples:

1. J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 1991 Dec;31(4):605-10. Judo and choking: EEG and regional cerebral blood flow findings. Rodriguez G, Francione S, Gardella M, Marenco S, Nobili F, Novellone G, Reggiani E, Rosadini G. Institute of Neurophysiopathology, University of Genoa, Italy.

2: Ital J Neurol Sci. 1998 Dec;19(6):367-72. Long-term effects of boxing and judo-choking techniques on brain function. Rodriguez G, Vitali P, Nobili F.

More...

Posted by bjj lawyer on January 7, 2011 at 5:30 AM · Report

141

@140 If I point out that people have died, leading to the court cases in which Jay has testified... will you just say that those people must have been doing it wrong? Jay notes that people also die of similar issues (such as vagal-induced sudden cardiac arrest) when they are by themselves straining during a bowel movement. But in that case, there won't be homicide charges.

Posted by EricaP on January 7, 2011 at 8:08 AM · Report

142

@140 Forgot to say, also, in most of the other situations with equal chance of death (sports, car accidents, etc), you are much more likely to have witnesses who can confirm your story.

Posted by EricaP on January 7, 2011 at 8:43 AM · Report

143

@129 aunt grizelda: you have to start desensitizing your gag reflex. Start brushing your tongue when you brush your teeth. Start on the borderline of okay and gagging.
Slooowly work yourself around and back. Also, most people don't swallow at the same time they're being gagged. You pull back a little to swallow.

Sticking your tongue out as far as it will go also helps with the gag reflex.

Good luck!

Posted by Caralain on January 7, 2011 at 9:31 AM · Report

144

Sleeping around isn't really all that great, but you wouldn't know that if you never tried it. You want to try it, you should definitely try it.

Dump the current. It's going to hurt a lot. Start getting used to the idea. You'll be happier in the end.

Posted by Rach3l on January 7, 2011 at 10:17 AM · Report

145

BlackRose @139 - thanks, you're pretty awesome yourself :-)

Posted by EricaP on January 7, 2011 at 12:18 PM · Report

146

to Stuck:

I'm 25 currently and still a virgin (male). I think when I find a girlfriend it's gonna be long-term, if not for life.

I would also like to have a sexually adventurous phase but I accept it's probably not going to happen.
This "having an adventurous phase" is just an invention of recent times anyway. For most of history, people got married to whomever their parents or whoever else was in charge chose and that was that.

Posted by zardoz on January 7, 2011 at 1:24 PM · Report

147

I like you too, EricaP. Fuck these other people.

Posted by sPGONAHAN on January 7, 2011 at 1:26 PM · Report

148

@146: It's true that people have more control now over when and to whom they get married, but that doesn't mean that during "most of history" no one slept around or had multiple partners. Read some history or biographies (as early in history as you like) and you will find affairs and mistresses, trial marriages, children born out of wedlock, and scandalous sexual "deviancy." It is not true that sexual adventure is a new invention. Marriage, as an institution, has only ever had as much influence on sexual activity as the people involved choose to give it.

Posted by Lori E. on January 7, 2011 at 2:26 PM · Report

149

@148: Don't tell him that! You're taking away his excuse for settling and giving up his desires.

Posted by BlackRose on January 7, 2011 at 6:09 PM · Report

150

EricaP

Good point! But no, I wouldn't say that they were doing it "wrong," I'd say that it's highly unlikely that they were doing what you could reasonably call breath play at all. It's my impression that Jay has been called in on cases where there are lots of suggestive signs and evidence of outright violent assaults and/or domestic abuse, with more injuries than mere damage to the neck. They're not cases where it's credible that consensual play took place, where it looks at all like the person putting on the hurting was actually interested in the welfare of the victim, and taking any steps to look out for them. Jay has been brought on as a hired gun, so that the defendant's lawyer could get him to say no, he didn't necessarily viciously attack that woman and then strangle her for minutes at a time: it could have been just a few seconds of consensual death play, and his partner just suddenly dropped dead.

And technically, Jay is right: it's possible to imagine physical processes by which someone, especially someone with some serous medical issues, could suddenly drop dead. It is theoretically possible. It just doesn't ever happen to the unbelievably enormous population of judo players/bjj'ers/mma'ers etc. Which is why I think maybe they (well, we, I should say) are onto something.

Posted by bjj lawyer on January 7, 2011 at 6:53 PM · Report

151

@8 well this is pretty much for dykes, but Courtney Trouble's stuff pretty rad.

Posted by HK on January 7, 2011 at 7:24 PM · Report

152

Inexperienced straight guys usually suck at sex. Why would any woman want to sleep with Stuck? Maybe he's a shitty lay or a shitty boyfriend.

"I'm going to sleep with other people and I hope you don't leave" = "Good luck with that, Jerk, and don't bother coming back."

Everyone wants to sleep with other people. In monogamous relationships, you don't sleep with other people because you respect your partner and the relationship. The rules are different for open relationships and D/s relationships. Who would have thought that different relationships could be different-wow.

Posted by ladida on January 7, 2011 at 9:36 PM · Report

153

@152: "Inexperienced straight guys usually suck at sex."

Inexperienced people of ANY gender or sexual orientation usually suck at sex.

Anyone who claims otherwise, i.e. that it's mainly a straight-guy thing, is a douche. Inexperienced straight women are often TERRIBLE lovers who don't know their own bodies and have no idea what to do with a penis.

Posted by the captcha says "Rhoda" so I'll go with that on January 8, 2011 at 12:02 AM · Report

154

@153 but stuck is an inexperienced straight guy so inexperienced straight guys were the topic at hand.

Posted by acquit on January 8, 2011 at 2:01 AM · Report

155

auntie grizelda,

"I have a late July birthday, and am therefore quite leonine, does this make me a leotard, too?"

No, it makes you an impaired joke-maker.

Posted by Hunter78 on January 8, 2011 at 5:25 AM · Report

156

@148

I think the person to whom you were responding was making the point that the idea that it's normal (or even expected) that a young man will spend his youth sowing wild oats before eventually settling down is an invention of modern times. That, largely, is true.

It's not to say that infidelity, deviance of all kinds, and general exploration hasn't been around. But, there's nothing in my reading of history (extensive, though not geared specifically at sex) which indicates a general societal expectation that a man between the ages of 18 and 30 will be sexually promiscuous and adventurous, and will have "missed out" if he fails to do so.

@149

It always amazes me that a group of people who are comfortable and supportive of all kinds of sexuality draw the line of acceptance at people who "deny" themselves their desires.

@ Erica

I think the problem is in whether such a statement ("I'm going to sleep around, I hope you'll stay") or ultimatum ("I need to sleep with other people to make this work") is foreseeable.

It's great that you were able to accept your husband's demands, but that seems like an unreasonable way for this to work. Basically, STUCK should be the one to make a choice (break up, or be monogamous) rather than forcing his wife to make a choice (break up, or accept his infidelity). His wife has shown no interest in such an arrangement, and STUCK mentions nothing which would lead me to believe his wife could have seen this coming.

He owes it to her to be a decent man and decide which is worth it. He's not in a loveless marriage, he's not being denied sex or pleasure, he's simply interested in sowing some wild oats, and that doesn't make a good justification for cheating.

If having an open relationship is important enough to him, he should find someone who agrees with it, not someone who (under duress) will accept it.

More...

Posted by Seldon2639 on January 8, 2011 at 6:30 AM · Report

157

Regarding the first letter: If you can have a safe word for ending sex, why not one that marks its beginning? It could be an effective momentum-sustaining way to switch tracks.

Posted by gowithit on January 8, 2011 at 11:12 AM · Report

158

Seldon @156 In my experience, guys who want varied sex often do not make that choice (break up, or be monogamous). Instead, they feel that they are doing their beloved wives a favor by keeping their infidelity a secret.

People here agree that most women would leave if told the truth. If the guy doesn't want her to leave, it sounds like he's pretty sensible to cheat instead. A douchebag, but a sensible douchebag.

For me, in my admittedly weird, D/s life, staying with this one particular charismatic (if a little bit paunchy) guy whom I have loved since the day I met him 23 years ago... that trumped everything else. And yet it was still hard for me to get past my desire to have him all for myself. Sounds like it was pretty similar for @50’s wife. I guess ours are not typical relationships. Still, it's interesting to hear other people's perspectives on how to discuss the possibility of opening up, particularly Lori E’s experience from the other direction.

Posted by EricaP on January 8, 2011 at 12:53 PM · Report

159

"Sword fights, adoptions, lesbian pets, Mistresses, faux-incest/pseudo-bestiality role-playing games"? Pshit! You just ruined reading any Shakespeare for me forever!

Posted by Crash on January 8, 2011 at 5:23 PM · Report

160

"Sword fights, adoptions, lesbian pets, Mistresses, faux-incest/pseudo-bestiality role-playing games"? Pshit! You ruined any enjoyment I had reading Shakespeare from now on.

Posted by Crash on January 8, 2011 at 5:31 PM · Report

161

@Erica. "Methinks she doth protest too much." Maybe your situation simply stinks, Erica. Honesty about his plans to break his wedding vows does not necessarily make a man a good one. You don't have to continue to tolerate behaviors that clearly cause you pain. Somewhere out in the world there may be a better match for you.

Posted by tututu on January 8, 2011 at 9:52 PM · Report

162

@161, it has been an intense year with a lot of pain. But we're having much more sex together, and more fun sex, than at any other point since the kids showed up. And we make each other laugh, and fit well together, and I've finally come to like his mother, so, no, I'm not leaving. What I want is more time with him before one of us dies, and leaving him is not going to achieve that. But thanks for the kind thoughts...

Posted by EricaP on January 9, 2011 at 12:34 AM · Report

163

@156:

146 said he wanted to be sexually adventurous (which in context seemed to mean having many partners), but that it probably wouldn't happen, and then gave some sour-grapes explanation. Sure, I'd accept it if he legitimately wanted lifelong monogamy, but it sounded like he thought he couldn't get what he wanted and was giving up, which struck me as sad.

Posted by BlackRose on January 9, 2011 at 12:46 AM · Report

164

Confidential to sPGONAHAN@147 I'd rather fuck you than some of these other people, but I take your point :-)

Posted by EricaP on January 9, 2011 at 12:06 PM · Report

165

Hypoxia can kill you, sure, but AS LONG AS YOU PLAY SOBER, choking is a relatively safe form of play. The very rare deaths attributed to this form of play usually involve alcohol and/or drugs. I'm sure that Dan didn't want to go into a detailed response here for lack of time and/or space. Out of an abundance of caution, many people take a "do as I say and not as I do" approach to edge play when writing these kinds of columns. There are far more balanced perspectives out there than Jay Wiseman's, which someone referenced above. Like here, for instance: http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/carv… or google safe breath control and make your own informed decisions.

You have to be gentle, for safety's sake. It shouldn't be done with someone you don't know really well. Unconsciousness should never be the goal. There are other ways to get to the state of a mildly hypoxic state without choking, though -- pinching nose/covering mouth, rebreathers, whippets, shared breath (a tantric technique), hoods/masks designed for that purpose (which actually seem riskier to me since the top can't see the bottom's face). In addition, telling the bottom that you'll punish him if he takes a breath can be a really fun way to play.

Yes, a drastic lack of oxygen is dangerous. In people with heart disease, especially, you just never know. We all go mildly hypoxic when we fuck, though. Hasn't anyone noticed that people tend to hold their breath right before coming, that sometimes it HELPS the climb to orgasm? All this form of play does is heighten that natural tendency and exploit it for more explosive orgasms. It doesn't mean that it's totally without risk, but neither is sex, for fuck's sake.

Oxygen, whether you are in a hyper or hypo-oxygenated state, is an amazing thing that can lead all on its own to altered states of consciousness. Treat it with respect, but by all means experiment if you're drawn to it!

More...

Posted by Breath Play Fan on January 9, 2011 at 12:24 PM · Report

166

Dan, you are old and boring.

After nearly two decades in this town, I'm pissed that you just now finally gave the 'ok' to the uptight women in this town to swallow a load...which they won't do unless you've been vegan for six months and/or have recently puchased a view condo. I've had to resort to quoting dead Frenchwomen and spiking their drinks with rohypnol to achieve the mythical 'gulp'.

What happened to all the filth?

Posted by SleepingWithNannyState on January 9, 2011 at 1:12 PM · Report

167

@165:

A "more balanced view" isn't necessarily a more accurate one. For instance, a textbook that provides a "more balanced view" of creationism and evolution is almost certain to be less accurate than a textbook that simply presents the current state of scientific knowledge on the subject. And when it comes to cerebral hypoxia, the current state of scientific knowledge on the subject (according to my layperson's understanding) is "it's bad." If you don't believe me, make an appointment with a neurologist -- any neurologist -- and ask whether it's okay for you to recreationally induce cerebral hypoxia. Is there anybody here who honestly thinks the answer would be "yes"?

Granted, many, many Americans routinely do things that their doctors would tell them not to. Nonetheless, the fact that sound medical advice is frequently flouted does not make it any less sound.

On a personal note, I've found that I tend to instinctively hold my breath when I approach orgasm. However, if I overcome that instinct and breathe deeply, I find that my orgasm actually becomes more intense. (Your mileage may vary, of course.)

Posted by echizen_kurage on January 9, 2011 at 2:08 PM · Report

168

Breathplay is just sexy darwinism. Go ahead and choke each other all you want, people, you don't need to justify yourselves to the savage love crowd. It keeps the news headlines interesting.

Posted by sexyresults on January 9, 2011 at 2:54 PM · Report

169

@65: To reiterate––Dan got this one right––any amount of choking is a BAD idea.

In karate dojos, choke-holds may be taught, but not allowed to be held in competition. If the ref taps you on the shoulder & you don't let go IMMEDIATELY, the ref just may give you a kick in the head. Clearly, they think the latter has lesser liability.

To the woman who gave rather precise times for probabilities of harm, you'll still go to prison for a long time if you're wrong. Supremely conditioned college athletes have dropped dead from undiagnosed brain aneurysms or heart conditions without warning. You simply don't have the information to assess these risks. No one does. Do your particular jollies matter so much to you that you're willing to risk your partner's life? That pretty well defines a sociopath.

Lastly, go easy even on the non-choking leash/collar play. Is a moment of too rigorous play really worth a lifetime of neck pain that can't be corrected or alleviated? Not at all. Be safe.

Posted by Listen2Dan on January 10, 2011 at 9:03 AM · Report

170

You know what's really a "bad idea"? Ill-informed, sweeping generalizations of a sexual act as "a bad idea."

Breathplay and light choking are not inherently "bad ideas." Like any more intense act with the potential for harm, it requires trust, education and communication.

For sex information that's *not* judgmental and inaccurate, they might try calling the San Francisco Sex Information line - http://sfsi.org/wiki/Main_Page
+1 (415) 989-SFSI (7374)

Posted by erinld on January 10, 2011 at 11:10 AM · Report

171

I'm soooo tired of all these judgmental bitches talking about how ~bad~ certain sexual acts are. Talk about close-minded. Who are YOU assholes to decide what's wrong or right? Everything ever is subjective, and if mass murder is what it takes to get somebody off, then I say to them: slaughter away!

Posted by howtedious on January 10, 2011 at 11:41 AM · Report

173

Dan,
Leotard? Really? That's just sad. I haven't heard you use it on the podcast for months. I thought you had moved beyond it. I don't like it when I perceive myself as more evolved than you. It makes hero worship all the more difficult. Please get over it and move on, you know you mean retarded and you know it's hurtful and mean. I can't imagine that you aren't better than this.
Hugs and kisses,
The Gay Blade

Posted by The Gay Blade on January 11, 2011 at 4:04 AM · Report

174

Perhaps I'll be the only person here to say, regarding Stuck, that in my opinion a "sexually adventurous period", in as much as that refers to a period of indiscriminate NSA activities with a number of partners followed by an ultimate goal to settle down monogamously, sounds great if you haven't done it. If you have, you may feel awful about it years down the line in the midst of enjoying that monogamous relationship. Especially if your long-term partner's level of experience with such things is much less than yours. Maybe it's just me, but looking back I wish I would have done without the vast majority of those dirty high school and college hookups... then again I guess if I had it would be have been harder for me to tell that my husband was the appropriate sexual match for me. Who knows.

Posted by zell_zyte on January 11, 2011 at 6:40 AM · Report

175

I love you EricaP! Keep up the good work!

Posted by odoom on January 11, 2011 at 8:59 AM · Report

176

@174 - why do you feel awful about those "dirty hookups"? Were you unnecessarily cruel to people? Were the hookups actually unpleasant to endure? Did you pick up incurable diseases? I hope none of the above... and I'm glad that you learned enough from your sexual adventures to find what you were looking for.

@175 - kiss kiss :-)

Posted by EricaP on January 11, 2011 at 12:36 PM · Report

177

@176: Oh, you're such a flirt! Kiss kiss.

Posted by BlackRose on January 11, 2011 at 4:36 PM · Report

178

There's something profoundly unrealistic about the way these letters and postings describe the first time we want to have sex outside of a long-term relationship.

It's almost always put right up there as a bloodless principle, the desire to have sex with unnamed, conjectural "other people." But in real life, when you're in a committed LTR and get smacked in the face by this, it isn't because you want to make it with another person in principle. It's because you somehow get involved with one specific person, and feel it would be great to have sex with her/him.

Looking back on that moment decades ago in my 20s, I would have never said or even thought I wanted to have sex with a generalized, nonspecific 'person.' But there were plenty of specific people I would have gladly fucked in a heartbeat, despite my LTR. I just never thought of it this way because I was too busy telling my fiance I was not interested in vague other people (which was true!), all the while messing around on the side with one specific one.

Posted by Token Straight Old dude on January 11, 2011 at 4:44 PM · Report

179

Life is choices, stuck. Your girlfriend said no to the sleeping around. You either choose your relationship and go without the chance to play the field, or you break up and play the field. I know you were fishing around for a pass on cheating so you could have it all and some dumb male somewhere probably told you that Dan would give it to you, but you aren't in the kind of extreme bind that justifies lying to your partner to save her from herself and your own sanity or whatever.

Posted by Karey on January 11, 2011 at 5:06 PM · Report

180

@143: Thanks, Caralain!

Posted by auntie grizelda on January 11, 2011 at 6:38 PM · Report

181

@155: I was trying to be funny!
It was a JOKE!
Geez! get over it.

Posted by auntie grizelda on January 11, 2011 at 6:42 PM · Report

182

@178: No, not for me it isn't. For me, it actually is the desire to have sex with someone else, in principle, some vague other person. I don't really understand your post: how can you want to have sex with someone else in particular unless you also want to have sex with other people in general?

Posted by BlackRose on January 11, 2011 at 10:44 PM · Report

183

@178/182 - I see this as an example of people just being different. Some people (like 178) don't want to see themselves as non-monogamous, but they just really are strongly attracted to one particular other person, besides their partner.

For other people (BlackRose I'm looking at you :-), the appeal is what my husband calls "getting some strange." A new hand or mouth or pussy around his cock. A new feel. It's like going to a new restaurant. Exciting because you don't already know what it will be like.

Posted by EricaP on January 12, 2011 at 9:29 AM · Report

184

@8, maybe pornotube.com because there's no economic motive. It's like youtube only, well you know...

Posted by Diagoras on January 12, 2011 at 10:43 PM · Report

185

@184 - looking around pornotube, it looks like a lot of the content is scenes uploaded from regular porn movies. Do you have any tips on how to search the site for strictly amateur performances?

Posted by EricaP on January 14, 2011 at 9:57 AM · Report

186

@121: Eric Fartman, is that you?

Posted by auntie grizelda on January 14, 2011 at 5:59 PM · Report

187

In regard to GGG, do most think that three tablespoons is a lot? I'm a very, very high-volume guy i.e. I'm invariably told it more than my partner has ever experienced, I should be in porn, etc.

Does anyone find this attractive or excessive? Thanks.

Posted by bjr85 on January 18, 2011 at 9:19 AM · Report

188

@187, that volume is, yes, very attractive. But have you really measured it out in tablespoons? (shades of J. Alfred Prufrock, measuring out his life with coffee spoons...)

Posted by EricaP on January 20, 2011 at 12:14 AM · Report

189

@ 188 I've never measured it out, but a tablespoon wouldn't be enough, for sure. A typical orgasm for me is multiple big shots (therefore the spoon wold be useless)...

Posted by bjr85 on January 20, 2011 at 4:20 PM · Report

190

ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME

...

MEEEEEEEEEEE!

(You're still here? It's over. Go home. Go!)

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No Choke

January 6, 2011

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