Follow Dan

Facebook    Twitter    Instagram    YouTube
Savage Lovecast
Dan Savage's Hump
It Gets Better Project

Savage Love Podcast

Got a question for Dan Savage?
Call the Savage Love Podcast at 206-201-2720
or email Dan at mail@savagelove.net.

Savage Love Archives

More in the Archives »

More from Dan Savage

More in the Archives »

Books by Dan Savage

Want a Second Opinion?

Contact Dan Savage

Savage on YouTube

Loading...

That Said

January 27, 2011

I'm from the other side of the country, but I'm sitting in my lover's San Francisco apartment wondering what I'm doing. I flew out here to spend five glorious days with her. We connect sexually (she's a Dom stone-butch top, I'm a queer femme sub), we connect intellectually, and we make each other laugh. I'm head over heels for her and for this city.

But she's literally twice my age. In no way does this bother me. She's handsome and wonderful, and I'm so proud to be with her. But she frets that she's too old for me and will die before me and it isn't fair to have the feelings we do.

I can hang on to this ledge, Dan, and not let myself utterly fall for this woman so that she doesn't break my heart when she says we must part as friends. I think that is what is coming. But I know she feels conflicted, and I can't see anything wrong with the two of us enjoying what time we have together. Why deny something we both want, if it's what we both want?

If I have to just walk away from this with a slew of great memories of a loving introduction to the greatest city on earth, there are certainly worse things. But I wish I could convince her to at least let us have a chance.

Lost In Fog Everyday

Start with the clichés—"Age is just a number," "I could get hit by a bus tomorrow," "Someone's gotta change your diapers"—and finish with a grace note: You love her, and you want to be with her, and you hope you'll always be close, whatever she ultimately decides.

That said, and forgive me for this, LIFE, it's possible that although this woman is what you want, you're not what she wants—for reasons that have nothing to do with age. She may be pointing to the obvious age discrepancy because it's a convenient, face-saving out, a way for her to pull the plug while sparing your feelings.

So a word of warning: If she cites age, you may be tempted to press your case—and you should, up to a point—but press too far, and she may wind up telling you the inconvenient, face-squandering, feelings-spearing truth.


I'm a bi male in a long-distance, long-term, and hypothetically poly relationship, and I'm going to a speed-dating event soon.

Our relationship is "hypothetically" poly in that my boyfriend and I have not had a third in a few years. I've had a couple dates in that time (with both guys and girls), disclosed, introduced them to my boyfriend, etc., and done everything a good poly boy is supposed to do. I didn't end up dating any of them, just from lack of personality/sexual compatibility.

I've never been to a speed-dating event before, though, so I'm not sure about protocol. I think that bringing up bi/poly would make the whole five minutes (or whatever) about that, and I'd really rather talk about mutual interests etc. Sexual orientation is a rather overdone topic to me, and talking about only that wouldn't let me figure out if I'm even interested in the other person. I'm not embarrassed by it at all (I'm completely uncloseted); I'd just rather talk about more interesting things.

So should I disclose during a speed date that I am (1) poly and/or (2) bisexual, or should I save it for a follow-up date?

Speed Disclosure

I tried to contact a few speed-dating businesses but couldn't find one with a contact phone number on its website—and that fact, coupled with the Mountain-Dew-swilling-teenager-on-MySpace quality of the sites, kind of makes commercial speed-dating services look tawdry.

Anyway, SD, disclosure is called for when a routine, obvious, and logical assumption is incorrect. Since most people are straight, the onus is on the gay person to come out. Since most gay people aren't morons, the onus is on members of GOProud to identify themselves before disrobing.

Other speed daters are going to make the reasonable assumption that you are (1) single and (2) gay or straight, depending on whether we're talking about a gay or straight speed-dating event.

That said, SD, due to prejudices beyond your control—biphobia, polyphobia—you may omit the bi/poly info about yourself on that first five- minute date. But you're obligated to disclose before a second date is arranged. Not to spare the women and/or men you might wind up dating from the unspeakable horrors of going out with a bi/poly dude, but to avoid wasting time on women and/or men who can't handle it.


I am a 19-year-old straight male who is only attracted to chubby girls, though I myself am rather skinny. It took a while, but I've learned to embrace this (though at first it seemed almost as scary as if I were to come out as gay). However, the problem I seem to have now is that the girls whom I find attractive—big girls—don't think of themselves as attractive, and that is a turnoff for me. Despite what seems like constant effort on my part to raise my exes' confidence in themselves, they never got any better and the relationships always ended. I'm not exactly bursting with confidence myself, either, but I tried my best to be a loving and supportive boyfriend. Yet time and time again, their images of themselves somehow seemed to actually turn worse, not better. I attribute a lot of their initial insecurity to the media, but I can't help but believe I somehow screw up and exacerbate it.

Troubled Horndog In Need

You're young and you've accepted your attraction to bigger girls, THIN, and that's great. But the girls you've dated—presumably close to your age—are doubtless still struggling with all the shit that's been thrown at them about their bodies. To grow confident about something that caused you a lot of pain—to say nothing of being with someone who's attracted to you in large part because of that something—can take time.

That said, THIN, if all the bigger girls you've dated emerged from your relationship feeling worse about themselves and their bodies... you might be doing something wrong. Were you treating your girlfriends like human beings and talking about their bodies in a way that made them feel attractive? Or did you treat them like fetish objects?


I'm a gay college student who's into bondage and kink. I'm also very involved with the Episcopal Church and want to become a leader in my church. I don't think that my predilection for bondage and my desire to pursue ordained ministry conflict, especially because I am fairly monogamous. Is there a conflict?

Wannabe Ordained Kinkster

I don't see a conflict, WOK, but I am not now, nor have I ever been, the Archbishop of Canterbury. If you can meet and marry a nice boy who shares your kinks, and you remain successfully monogamous, and you have no desire to go to the Folsom Street Fair or post play pictures of yourself on kinky personal sites, I don't see how your coreligionists will learn about your sexual interests, much less be scandalized by 'em.

That said, WOK, um... I have nothing more to add. Fuck Sarah Palin, go Bears, preorders: tinyurl.com/4f2g524.


Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.

mail@savagelove.net

 

Comments (147) RSS

Oldest First Unregistered On Registered On Add a comment
yourmom.com 1
This new book says 'edited by' Dan... and all the others said 'by' Dan...

What is up with that?
Posted by yourmom.com on January 25, 2011 at 5:13 PM · Report this
2
Spot-on this week. The Archbishop of Canterbury would make a good costume for you, if you feel like partying next Halloween.
Posted by Functional Atheist on January 25, 2011 at 5:14 PM · Report this
3
THIN,
If you're flattering your exes by telling them that you like chubby girls and you think their curvy bods are amazing, that may still really sting. I had an ex tell me that I shouldn't feel self-conscious about my big butt, because he loved it. As an awkward, shy teenager - that really didn't help matters. Be honest about being attracted to them, but you don't have to slather it on - you don't need to keep bringing up the fact that you love them for being big. It can take us girls some time to get comfortable with our bods and ourselves.
Posted by rossi on January 25, 2011 at 5:17 PM · Report this
4
THIN, try NOT mentioning that you are attracted to them because of their size. Just be attracted to them ...
Posted by Krunch on January 25, 2011 at 5:20 PM · Report this
5
Maybe part of THIN's problem is that he's insecure himself, and so is only asking out people who are insecure. You can't change other people, THIN, so start by keeping your eyes open for women who are high in self-esteem, whatever their size.
Posted by EricaP on January 25, 2011 at 5:24 PM · Report this
6
SD, poly speed dating exists, as a concept. If there isn't any where you live, SD, you could try starting it.

The internet is your friend: Poly@polyamory.org is a mailing list devoted to polyamory, and maybe it will help you connect with people in your area who might also be interested in poly speed dating. The poly people I know sure seem to do a lot of dating...
Posted by EricaP on January 25, 2011 at 5:29 PM · Report this
Fancy's_Pants 7
@THIN: in addition to what Dan said, most girls at that stage in their lives have confidence issues of some kind. At 19, I was still reeling from years of being told I was so skinny I "made people sick"; at 19, most of us are struggling to shed the teenage torments we had to endure (as you yourself admit to as well). The wise boy will take this into account.
Posted by Fancy's_Pants on January 25, 2011 at 5:35 PM · Report this
8 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
9
the clogging of the penis with a bitof semen is a cumclog.

Alex Dunne
Posted by Postalex on January 25, 2011 at 6:43 PM · Report this
10
@8: The GOP itself quite often doesn't make sense!

Spot on advice, Dan, to LIFE and THIN!
Posted by auntie grizelda on January 25, 2011 at 6:46 PM · Report this
11
HA! "fairly monogamous"

and THIN, if you ever mention to them that you are attracted to them because of their weight, then you probably are making it worse.
Posted by jimmy25 on January 25, 2011 at 7:24 PM · Report this
sanguisuga 12
As a fairly large gal myself, Dan is spot-on with the comment about "treating them as fetish objects". That's what I've encountered with self-professed chubby chasers and it is a HUGE turn-off to know that they are ONLY interested because of my fat ass. Get to know the girl, get to know her interests and share those with her. Don't go on and on and on about how hot her curves are. A well-placed compliment from time to time will go a long way.
Posted by sanguisuga on January 25, 2011 at 7:47 PM · Report this
13
@yourmom.com: It says edited because Dan and Terry chose the selections contained in the volume and may have edited some for clarity, brevity, consistent style, or whatever. As the description of the book clearly states, and as the It Gets Better project is based on, these are contributions from celebrities and others hoping to give young people hope and strength. Dan and Terry didn't write them, so they aren't the authors of the volume.
Posted by buzzbuzzard on January 25, 2011 at 7:58 PM · Report this
14
@THIN, sometimes these deep-seated issues seem to get worse once the person with the issues feels safe -- REALLY safe -- to disclose them to you and start working through them. These things can take months or years to overcome.

If you choose to get involved with another Big Beautiful Woman who is still coming to terms with the twin facts of her bigness AND her beauty, I'd suggest patience, patience, and more patience. Telling someone she's beautiful doesn't actually do any good. Showing someone she's beautiful and that you want to be with her will give her the safety to work on her problems -- if she wants to.

And in that theoretical future relationship, if you see evidence that she's working on it, I'd encourage you to stay the course and keep being her safe person for those months (or longer) that really dealing with these issues can take.
Posted by dianasquiver on January 25, 2011 at 8:00 PM · Report this
15
To WOK, It will depend on the diocese in which you seek ordination. In Fort Worth, Texas, or Stockton, California, you would have little hope of being ordained, simply because you are gay. In San Francisco, your kink would not be no impediment whatsoever, as long as you are reasonably discreet and maintain healthy and preferably monogamous relationships. You could march next to the Bishop in the Gay Pride Parade (I have), and, notwithstanding what Dan says, the Folsom Street Fair is not necessarily off limits as long as you don't post photos of yourself on Facebook, and you might even run into some of your colleagues there. Unfortunately, you'll also find a large surplus of gay Episcopal priests chasing a very small number of openings for parish priests.

As someone who has been invovled with mentoring several young women and men who have explored potential vocations as an Episcopal priest, I would certainly say that your kink should not be a major issue. If you truly called to the priesthood, you will be called in the totality of your personhood, kinks and all, and the unconventional perspectives about the power dynamics involved in human relationships which you gain from your involvement with bondage may inform and serve your ministry.

That said, WOK, I would advise you not necessarily to rush into ordination -- not because you are gay or into bondage, but because you are a young man. Get some life experience first, get a non-Church job, maybe go abroad, do some lay ministry. It will allow you some space and perspective in which to consider whether you truly are called to the ordained ministry and ultimately make you a better priest if you are.
Posted by sfstraightguy on January 25, 2011 at 8:15 PM · Report this
Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In 16
@12

Yeah, THIN, I smell what you're stepping in. Take the above advice to heart: Tell your gf she's looking especially pretty today, or that outfit makes her look hot, keep everything non-specific and general.

That being said.... Consider older women. They're generally more confident in their bodies and themselves.
Posted by Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In on January 25, 2011 at 8:21 PM · Report this
Robin8 17
If THIN is pursuing only women in his age group, maybe he should just hang loose for a couple of years or more. There are plenty (obviously: we're Americans!) of self-confident BBWs out there, me included, and we're older than 19.
Posted by Robin8 http://shutyoureverlovingpiehole.wordpress.com on January 25, 2011 at 8:33 PM · Report this
18
Re: This new book says 'edited by' Dan... and all the others said 'by' Dan...

What is up with that?

Uhhh...it means Dan edited it but didn't write it...

This is a collection of letters written by Dan's readers. Dan collected them, edited them, and made a book out of them. He did not, however, write these letters himself
Posted by just a reader on January 25, 2011 at 9:11 PM · Report this
19
As a chubby girl who has dated more than a few thin guys (though I prefer a man with more muscle), it is TOUGH to not feel gross with your bony man, even if he's all over you. Not to mention how shitty it feels when he tells you how much he loves his "in shape" new girlfriend after you break up.
Posted by LBChubber on January 25, 2011 at 9:28 PM · Report this
Azul 20
My boyfriend weighs less than I do, and it made me really self-conscious for the first, idk, year or so we were together. I had a hard time believing he could be attracted to me, b/c compared to him, I am fat. And his ex had small breasts, a flat stomach, etc. With other boyfriends, I'd felt much more confident in my body.
This goes against what a lot of people are saying here, but the comments that helped me the most were ones that indicated he likes that I am curvy, and when I hear that some of his favorite celebrities are the curvy ones with bodies like mine. If he avoided talking about my body and commented instead only on my face or hair or whatever, it would make me think he felt my body was a flaw he needs to overlook. If he were to never mention my body, I would assume he doesn't like it.
Posted by Azul on January 25, 2011 at 9:45 PM · Report this
21
Why should THIN's exes have self-confidence? This society shames fat people, especially fat women. They would be completely delusional if they were brimming with it. That being said, I agree with the other comments: Don't fetishize them.
Posted by doublefrick on January 25, 2011 at 9:48 PM · Report this
22
Dan,
YOU FUCKING SUCK! Abortion rights are literally being taken away from women. You do NOTHING to put that message out there - call your rep, call your Sen., talk to your friends - do every damned thing possible to tell American gov't to leave women's rights the hell alone....yet you'll peddle your repeated messaging about bullies ONLY in the lgbt communities.Newflash - women have been at the forefront of EVERY MAJOR CIVIL RIGHTS CAMPAIGN, but in ensuring basic healthcare access for women? It's all ladies.
I've got a message for you, but Cee-Lo sings it better.
Posted by Ms.11 on January 25, 2011 at 9:53 PM · Report this
23 Comment Pulled (Duplicate) Comment Policy
24
Re: THIN's question - I am not a tiny wee thing, but neither do I qualify as BBW; I still struggle with the same body dysmorphia bullshit that pretty much all American women do. At one point, though, I was a solid 14/16 because of serious health issues. In that phase, some of the only men who sought me out were chubby-chasers, and it made my existing discomfort with my body exponentially worse. Some women are healthy at that size, and proud of their bodies, but I was not. I did not want to be pursued ONLY for a body that caused me physical and psychological anguish – it is really hard to look in the mirror every day and find a mismatch between your internal idea of yourself and the physical reality. Regardless of her size or shape, THIN, no woman wants to be reduced to a type or to feel that only her body is important to you.
Posted by motoko on January 25, 2011 at 10:05 PM · Report this
buddspal 25
THIN- why don't you look for a big gal that's obviously comfortable with her size. someone who is approaching your ideal. it sounds like you are trying to pick a wallflower and grow her into something she isn't comfortable with. also remember, she's a human being. you meet lots of those. don't get hung up on a body type, find the person you click with first. theres plenty of fat porn out there to satify your fat tooth if you do find yourself having relations with someone who is 'less' than you've imagined. and at 19, whatever you hitch your wagon to is never going to get you all the way to your destination. as previous posters have said, confidence comes with age, and you'll find yours with someone and someone will find theirs with you.
Posted by buddspal on January 25, 2011 at 10:20 PM · Report this
buddspal 26
thats at age 19, not at poster 19 LBChubber
Posted by buddspal on January 25, 2011 at 10:24 PM · Report this
27
THIN, in addition to the good advice you've already been given, you might be able to spot the more confident women by the clothes they wear. If she knows what looks flattering on her, draws attention to her curves in a tasteful way, wears some jewelry, accessories, then she's probably much more confident in herself than someone who tries to hide in sweat pants and a t-shirt 2-sizes too big. And if she's wearing a mumu and crocks - forget it - that one has given up completely.
Posted by Diagoras on January 26, 2011 at 12:15 AM · Report this
28 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
29
Why would anyone take advice from an absentee father?
Posted by Amanda on January 26, 2011 at 1:30 AM · Report this
30
THIN, one thing you will find as you get older, once the big girls get past these forced-upon-them hangups, the ones that come out shining will have an amazing self confidence that normal range male-gaze-attractors rarely have. The sexuality of a confident big girl is unique, and I for one can't get enough of it.
Posted by lustist on January 26, 2011 at 3:18 AM · Report this
31
Hmm I wonder which person on this thread is desperately looking for attention for his idiotic blog!? HMM
Posted by planned barrenhood on January 26, 2011 at 3:21 AM · Report this
32
@AbsenteeDaddy, you lost the advice columnist death match with your poor grammar. Go away.
Posted by JustAnotherSavageLover on January 26, 2011 at 3:26 AM · Report this
33
To WOK:

What Poster 15 said.

I work with the Episcopal Church as a vendor. If you are going to be a young priest then please for the love of god be a useful one.

The church is a business and you need to get business skills. For example you may want to go into evangelicalism. If so you need marketing skills.

No matter what your ministry is you will need real world skills to manage it.

Take a few years to get these skills, save money for school and make sure you are truly called.
Posted by CrazyCanuck on January 26, 2011 at 4:52 AM · Report this
34
15: "...you'll also find a large surplus of gay Episcopal priests chasing a very small number of openings for parish priests."

And a number of parish priests' very small openings!
Posted by Yojimbo on January 26, 2011 at 4:58 AM · Report this
35
Dan is dead on this week. good advice to THIN, although tbh it is hard to talk any woman out of her body issues.
Posted by stormcrow on January 26, 2011 at 5:01 AM · Report this
wondergus 36
THIN, I was in your shoes at one time, and I ALWAYS told the women I fell for that they were gorgeous and that I loved to be with them. Never told them I fell for them because they were large, and always emphasized how much they turned me on. The 4 larger women I was with became more confident, saw themselves as sexy, and then I had to worry about other guys zooming in--the women saw themselves differently, and other people did too.
Posted by wondergus on January 26, 2011 at 5:59 AM · Report this
samanthaf63 37
As a big girl who has dated mostly thin guys who liked big girls, the things that put me off the most were this: one, the guy who is obviously crazy about you but keeps you from the rest of his life (maybe he's embarrassed that he likes big girls but his friends won't) and two, the BAD modern lingo. I had one guy tell me I was a beautiful "thick" or "phat" girl. It sounded horrible. So if you're going to laud your lady with praise, make sure you keep it "civilian" and use the right kind of language. "Beautiful" always means "beautiful" but the meanings of some slang doesn't always translate, especially if a woman is slightly sensitive (or in my case, it's age).
Posted by samanthaf63 on January 26, 2011 at 6:11 AM · Report this
38
@ THIN: If you make the person's physical appearance the focal point in determining who you will form a relationship with, you are dooming yourself and the unfortunate people you end up with. Certainly being sexually/physically attracted to someone is on the long list of attributes that lead to good relationships, but if it is THE attribute that got you together, the predicted shelf life of the relationship is about the same as a gallon of milk.
Posted by gonzo on January 26, 2011 at 7:23 AM · Report this
Doctor Darcy 39
Re: That Said.

I'm a proponent of trusting what I'm being told & not reading too deeply into it; odd, I know, for a shrink. So my advice is as follows:

Femme, I think you're right to trust what she's telling you. I suspect her concerns are indeed about her age. Sad, actually, to think that if she were a man she'd likely have no reservations about the age difference. But she's spent her life being told what women of a certain age shouldn't do, and dating a hot young woman is on the top of the list.

Let her know that you're starting to become concerned that the end is near and that regardless of her reasons, it's still a rejection. Challenge her to make peace with the age difference and agree to pull it off the table. It's certainly not fostering safety within the relationship.
Posted by Doctor Darcy http://AskDrDarcy.com on January 26, 2011 at 7:28 AM · Report this
40
@ AbsenteeDaddy: In that context it's "Dan and me" not "Dan and I in an advice columnist death match". Just sayin...
Posted by GreyMare on January 26, 2011 at 8:15 AM · Report this
41
Great advice this week! Anyone else get the feeling he read the post on Jezebel yesterday about why he shouldn't be on MTV? Today's letters seem just a little too topical...
Posted by absurdfiction on January 26, 2011 at 8:31 AM · Report this
42
@34 lol
Posted by EricaP on January 26, 2011 at 9:08 AM · Report this
aisteach79 43
I'm a thin guy with a bigger boyfriend. I like it but he doesn't, both because the guys he thinks are hot are my size and because he's not as energetic or as comfortable in his skin as I am.

Use discretion with compliments on and attitudes toward weight.

When we were first together I was more explicit about it and it wasn't well-received. It's not that he didn't believe me - i mean, he saw the type of guys I'd look at online - but he wants to be thinner for his own self-esteem and well-being. Personally, I think it's good to respect that too. But that said, I'd be with him if he lost weight too (of course, "how much" is a subject for debate). So I just do my best to love him with my body and mind and don't go much further than complimenting (from the neck down) on his clothes. He seems much happier about that.

ALSO, pre-ordered IGBP book for my high school library. Don't know if they'll accept it or not...but it is PUBLIC school, so they may well be pleased to receive a brand new book.
Posted by aisteach79 on January 26, 2011 at 9:15 AM · Report this
44
I disagree that THIN shouldn't be able to tell his girlfriends why he finds them attractive.

If someone likes what they see, they have every right to say it - it's incumbent on the woman in possession of said set of fashionably questionable curves to learn to take a compliment.

The problem, THIN, is your age. You say you're 19, so I'm guessing that if you're not in college, you are probably dating at least a few girls who are. College means the freshman 15 (or 30, or 45), so for a lot of these girls their chubby status is probably a) new, and b) thought of by them as an aberration that will disappear within a few months as soon as they start that all-lettuce diet and make time for a five-mile run every day. Not only are they still deeply uncomfortable with being chubby, but they probably don't know how to react to a man they may like, but who is attracted to a quality they're actively trying to minimize.

As you get into your 20s, you'll find a higher percentage of women who are cool with their bodies. Of course, you don't need to wait for your 20s if you don't want to - just date some older women. I can pretty much guarantee that, unless you're in a town with a population over 400, there's at least one chubby 30-something who wouldn't say no to a skinny teenage boytoy. Have fun!
Posted by Torchy Blane on January 26, 2011 at 9:15 AM · Report this
45
lol @29
Posted by discodolly on January 26, 2011 at 9:20 AM · Report this
46
in re:male urethral blockage after sex or masturbation.
hi dan. another boring hetero guy here. i'd like to suggest coulter as the annoying blockage that occurs from dried semen on the end of the dick after sex or masturbation. it's annoying and so is ann. thanks!
Posted by harford on January 26, 2011 at 10:00 AM · Report this
47
@1 I suspect it has to do with the fact that he wrote the other books, (they are written "by" him) and in fact edited this one (it was not written by him).

That is, traditionally, what "edited by" means.
Posted by Atumornamedmarla on January 26, 2011 at 10:08 AM · Report this
Delishuss 48
Gotta say, THIN, as a thicker girl who's dealt with self-esteem issues: stop trying to "fix" your gfs self-esteem issues.

Number one, it's not your responsibility, it's theirs.

Number two, it's hard to trust someone who's constantly trying to shove sunshine up your butt, because after a while it starts coming off as disingenuous.

Number three, when you're always trying to boost someone, every compliment can amplify their self-loathing. They know that you're aware of their self-esteem issues, and your "constant effort" to boost their self-image can begin to feel like a criticism. Compliments are most effective when they're sprinkled, not showered.

And Dan's right, don't fetishize women because their big. Initiate conversation because they're big and you're attracted to them, start dating them because you like them as people.
Posted by Delishuss on January 26, 2011 at 10:15 AM · Report this
marigoldml 49
THIN, one more thing. You sounds like you both loathe and love fat girls. The fact that coming out as a fat-lover was more difficult than coming out as gay indicates that you honestly believe there is something VERY wrong with liking bigger women.
It's like being racist but having a fetish for Black women. At some point, there going to sense your inner conflict and it's going to make them feel like shit.
You should work on yourself, and on seeing fat women as normal women. If you're ashamed to be dating them, then their self-esteems going to take a major hit, whether you're complimenting their fat asses or not.
Posted by marigoldml on January 26, 2011 at 10:32 AM · Report this
Ophian 50
A much more interesting column than last week. Great advice.

And @ 41, I hadn't noticed, but now that you point it out, he handled size issues tangentially, bi/poly at least in terms of etiquette, and female age concerns...all without setting off a shit-storm. All kinds of warm fuzzies here in the thread.
Posted by Ophian on January 26, 2011 at 10:42 AM · Report this
Ophian 51
@ 49, Might a better analogy being a guy into black women in the antibellum South? I.E. not that he "believes there is something very wrong" with digging big women, but that our culture does, hence the inner-conflict.
Posted by Ophian on January 26, 2011 at 10:53 AM · Report this
Ophian 52
"...analogy be being..."

Sorry.
Posted by Ophian on January 26, 2011 at 10:54 AM · Report this
rock bottom 53
@23 Ms.11, are you fucking kidding? Not only has he written about it, listen to his podcasts - Dan is constantly talking about reproductive rights for women, as well as advocating sex education in schools that teach what choices women have. I think you have a point that most of us gay men don't have a clue when it comes to women's rights, but Dan ain't one of them!
Posted by rock bottom on January 26, 2011 at 11:11 AM · Report this
54
To the guy that likes bigger women, take it from a girl who battles with weight, my husband is a rail stick, and he treats me as if im a size 5 and his wet dream. when i start feeling bad about my size, it isnt anything hes DONE its sometimes I see us together, and see him so skinney and me not. it doesnt last long but it does happen
Posted by shellbell75 on January 26, 2011 at 11:12 AM · Report this
55
#43 has it right. I'm big enough - (5'10", 220) that I attract my share of chasers, but the thing is, I don't and will never consider my size who I am. I was at 250 a year ago, and at 205 before the holidays. I hope to get down to 180.

Being with a chaser complimenting me on my size would just make me thing I'd lose him if I was ever at the size I want to be.

I don't want to speak for anyone else, especially women, but I think I'd be happiest with someone who thinks I'm attractive now but would find me more attractive if I weighed less. I do think that most fat people would prefer not to be fat. That doesn't mean they're unhappy with themselves, it doesn't mean they'll ever lose weight, but being slimmer does represent their self-ideal. I'm perfectly happy with my income but would I prefer to be filthy rich? Hell yes. If THIN is looking for women who would rather be fat than thin, I suspect he's limited to a fairly small subset of women.
Posted by RealityBites on January 26, 2011 at 11:13 AM · Report this
56
@55 Personally - I'm looking for someone who thinks I'm attractive as I am. Whether that's at 160 or 260... I don't want someone looking at me and thinking "if only she was 20 pounds lighter". That's pretty self-destructive, honey.
Posted by love yourself as you ARE on January 26, 2011 at 11:49 AM · Report this
57
There's a poly speed dating event here in San Francisco that I've attended--actually met someone I had a brief but pleasant relationship with.

In chatting with the organizers, was really impressed with their planning and database skills! They had straight, gay, bi, TG, and TS folks, poly couples looking for a third, single poly people looking to meet other poly people, and probably other configurations, and actually managed to arranged enough "dates" for everyone (of course my friend the "unicorn"--hot bi poly single girl--was the wild card who left with more numbers than, well, anyone).

(http://www.polyspeeddating.com/ for SF locals who want to check it out.)
Posted by AnathemaT on January 26, 2011 at 12:28 PM · Report this
58
I can't wait for the It Gets Better book. Hopefully, I'll get it in time for you to come to Pittsburgh and sign it for me.
Posted by Jamie in Pittsburgh http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/strawberry.limonade?ref=name on January 26, 2011 at 12:29 PM · Report this
pastaefagoli 59
Quick question: since when are the words "fat" and "curvy" synonymous?
Posted by pastaefagoli on January 26, 2011 at 12:30 PM · Report this
60
To THIN--

I'm a fat chick, and it helped my confidence a lot when I had a boyfriend who didn't treat me as some abnormality and didn't fixate on my weight, but complimented me and treated me like just a woman he found attractive. If I wore something sexy, he'd say, "damn, you look sexy." If you think her fat ass is amazing, just say, "Your ass is amazing." Don't make it about the fat, make it about her.

And, while your at it, it can't hurt to advocate for fat acceptance. I don't care how you feel about health issues, etc. Poor nutrition and lack of activity is a problem for most people in the US, and yet fat people receive the most crap. Nothing helps confidence more than not having it shattered in the first place. A woman who's into fat acceptance has likely also made peace with her body, or is in the process of making peace with her body. Also, don't treat us like we NEED confidence boosting. I've had men act like I surely hate my body and need their approval, and that's a huge turn-off.

And most of all, don't be ashamed of any fat woman you date. That's the worst, and likely to make any confident fat woman run away fast. Good luck.
Posted by Shoshie on January 26, 2011 at 1:12 PM · Report this
61
Pretty much agreeing with a lot of commenters here, but yeah - I'm a larger woman. I present myself with confidence, and feel that I'm on the positive side of average, as far as my attractiveness. ;-)
I'm confident that my boyfriend finds me attractive, and I enjoy hearing compliments about my body - but if he said, "you're so hot BECAUSE you're SO BIG..." sorry, but that would be a turn-off.
"I love your boobs;" "I love your ass;" or simply "you're beautiful" are all just fine.... ;-)
Posted by voluptuousgal on January 26, 2011 at 1:20 PM · Report this
XiaoGui17 62
Comment #55 is spot on. Some people just don't want to be fat, and being with someone who likes them that way is scary. The relationship not only means a commitment to the other person, but a commitment to being a shape one doesn't want to be.

If a woman considers herself full-figured, curvy, rubenesque, BBW, or whatever, more power to her and I'm happy for her! But I don't want to be fat, and when I was 60 lbs heavier the last thing I wanted was fat fetishists lusting after me! I wanted to lose weight and I needed all the support I could get. The last thing I needed was something/someone that would interfere with that goal.
Posted by XiaoGui17 on January 26, 2011 at 1:56 PM · Report this
aisteach79 63
@55 5'10, 220...sounds perfect to me ;) Seriously though, when you say

"I don't and will never consider my size who I am."

I feel the same way! Or rather, I always think like I am actually a lot bigger than I really am. I was a fat kid and I think the hell that being fat+gay put me through then has manifested both as a self-image and as a fetish in my adult life.
Posted by aisteach79 on January 26, 2011 at 2:09 PM · Report this
64
For WOK, the obvious source of advice, probably more useful than Dan's, would be Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson in New Hampshire. He's obviously pretty busy, but (based on knowing people that know him) he's also the sort of guy who would take time out to help someone like WOK struggling with his question, since he struggled with much the same question both when he was first ordained and again when he was elected bishop.
Posted by Thexalon on January 26, 2011 at 2:54 PM · Report this
65
go bears?
Posted by benjamin on January 26, 2011 at 3:14 PM · Report this
AustinCynic 66
My advice to WOK, speaking as an Episcopalian and someone who served a term on my parish vestry back when Gene Robinson's ordination was a hot topic:

IMO, the issue of his sexual orientation will depend on his diocese and the attitude of his bishop. Diocesan bishops in the Episcopal Church USA are pretty much where the buck stops. So if WOK finds a broad-minded bishop in a more socially liberal dioceses, his gayness shouldn't be an issue.

As far as the bondage...well, let me put it this way: if he were my bishop and he had a committed partner with which he was indulging his tastes then I would see it as none of my business, any more than I would see it as my business if it were my own rector and his wife.

FWIW I second #64's suggestion of seeking out an ordained mentor. One thing I've always loved about the Episcopal bishops I've met is that they're utterly approachable. Another bishop I know who supported Gene Robinson's ordination is Rt. Rev. Thomas Shaw, bishop of Massachusetts. I had the privilege of meeting Bishop Shaw some years ago while on retreat at a monastery run by the order he belongs to (the Society of St. John the Evangelist) and I remember him talking about it.

Bishop Shaw also throws some mean pottery. :-)
Posted by AustinCynic on January 26, 2011 at 3:53 PM · Report this
67
AbsenteeDaddy,

You idiot! You talk about giving good advice-- you haven't given a bit of it yet. You're just a commercial. Your name should be cut off.
Posted by Hunter78 on January 26, 2011 at 5:12 PM · Report this
68
@53 - Rock Bottom,
Wha....? I know Dan supports women's rights. But timing is everything. This shit is urgent! Attention Gay Men: Your mothers birthed you. Do them and all womankind the respect of standing with them for rights. Google NARAL, visit it, and sign the petition.

What I'm saying and what you & probably most people don't know is:

The Anniversary of Roe V. Wade was last weekend and the House just passed a "No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act." in addition to making the dismantling of Roe V. Wade a top priority. This is URGENT here!

Currrently, funding for abortion gets decided at the top of every year. They never fund it, but w/ the new bill it CHANGES THE LEGISLATIVE CODE so that an bill for funding abortion CAN NEVER be brought to the legislation floor. Insanity! The author of this bill just last year opened a VA clinic. Despite the reported 28% sexual assault record against female soldiers BY THEIR OWN TROOPS, Rep. Chris Smith blocks access to both abortion to military women and penalties to military rapists. He clearly does not represent female citizens.

Homophobia is rooted in mysogyny - you know soldiers don't want gay dudes bunking w/ them because hetero soldiers feel entitled to sex w/woman and they're worried gay soldiers will have the same attitude toward men.

I haven't listened to Dan's lastest podcasts - so if he's mentioned anything about it, great. He hasn't put anything in print form although it's timely & necessary.

You've got outright liars like Abby Johnson, former director of Planned Parenthood, who quit because she was about to be fired then turned around and went "pro-life(anti-choice)" feeding into the new hysteria that PP is literally making money off abortions. Despite the fact most of their work is in prevention of pregnancy & stds & maintaining excellent reproductive health for both men & women.

So, I ask all of you, dear Savage Readers, to call your representative and demand they represent pro-choice America and all women nationwide.

We're talking about women's self esteem here? How about men's? Men wouldn't take away people's rights if they weren't insecure. The level of entitlement our reps have shown have their roots in the religious movement, military & general pop culture. Ladies, fuck 'em. Women w/ a little weight - go w/ your bad self & thin dude - chill.

Thanks~
More...
Posted by Ms.11 on January 26, 2011 at 5:15 PM · Report this
69
For THIN - maybe they talk to you about how they really feel about their bodies because they like and trust you. Maybe they ask you again and again if you are attracted to them because it is literally hard for them to believe it, given how all the other 19 year old guys and society in general looks at them. Weight is a hard thing not to hate yourself about, especially if you're female. Think about it as equivalent to having a really small dick. How would that mess with your self esteem? Would you be ok with that at 19? Even if you found someone who wasn't bothered by it and in fact wanted you in every possible way, could you get over it just because of that? It's something that doesn't really matter, but you would think it mattered a lot because you wouldn't have a lot of experience in life yet. You want women who are over their weight issues? You need to look for older women, say 80+ years old. You want women who at least are fine with it most of the time? 30's. It's not just a fat girl issue, it's a girl issue, and I promise you, you aren't going to find a lot of really truly confident and sexy women at 19 of any size. Just doesn't happen. That comes with time and experience. Good luck!
Posted by gnot on January 26, 2011 at 5:52 PM · Report this
Backyard Bombardier 70
@68: I don't care if your cause is good, or if I agree with abortion rights: You are spamming SLOG, and that is fucking annoying. Cut it out. All over the Internet, there are blogs and columnists like Dan, not paying IMMEDIATE attention to your pet cause.

Why don't you go bug them and leave us alone?
Posted by Backyard Bombardier on January 26, 2011 at 6:47 PM · Report this
71
I'm a lesbian Episcopal priest. I second what has been said about finding a friendly diocese, and it's true that churches tend to be less willing to hire gay men than straight men (but still way, way more likely to hire men than women). Finding a mentor is absolutely necessary.

Do NOT talk with your bishop or your mentor about your kinks. No one needs to know. What you do at home is what you do at home. Be discreet.

If you care at all about the church, you will not go to Folsom Street Fair. Speaking from intense and painful personal experience, those on the right in the Episcopal Church who are tearing it apart from the inside are seeking any possible excuse to discredit you. Don't give it to them. (Don't feed the trolls!) Don't put yourself in a situation where they can use your sexuality or preferences against you. As a priest, if your call to ordained ministry is real, you choose to give up some personal freedoms. One of them is participation in some kinds of public sexualities. Right or wrong, that is what it is. And your love for your Church, if you want to serve it as priest, should be greater than your love for Folsom Street.
Posted by priest who's been there on January 26, 2011 at 9:00 PM · Report this
72
@45, is that username a sex dwarf reference? ilu.
Posted by lilechka on January 26, 2011 at 9:15 PM · Report this
73
kindle, please, dan!
Posted by eridanis on January 26, 2011 at 9:33 PM · Report this
74
Hi WOK

I'm an Episcopalian and a lay leader in my parish. As others have said here, the key is establishing what your diocese's position is on ordaining gay men and women. I don't think that any diocese which ordains gay people is going to have a problem with bondage in a monogamous relationship. If you are in a very conservative diocese you may have to consider moving to a more liberal one after you finish college, which would slow down your path to ordination a bit, but as you are so young I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

If you are at college and your campus has an Episcopal chaplaincy, that would be a good place to start exploring your vocation as they are likely to be positive about vocations for younger people. Other advice I would give to anyone your age considering ordination: pray a lot, get a spiritual director (ask your priest to put you in touch with someone), get involved in lots of lay ministry, go on retreats organized for people considering ordained ministry, spend a couple of years after college working - and not necessarily in a churchy job. You may be surprised to find some kind of calling in something outside the church.

It may be frustrating to put this on the back burner for a couple of years, but your ministry will ultimately be better informed by extra time spent discerning God's will. And don't forget that the formal discernment process itself can last a long time - some people are in it for years - so you need to have some way to support yourself during it. Another thing to ask yourself is, am I specifically called to *ordained* ministry? There are plenty of forms of ministry that don't require ordination.
Posted by god botherer on January 26, 2011 at 10:16 PM · Report this
75
Ms. 11: Calm the fuck down, bitch.
Posted by FLgirl on January 26, 2011 at 11:06 PM · Report this
76
Dan re: speed disclosure said "... avoid wasting time on women and/or men who can't handle it."

Um, "can't handle it"? That seems harsh/ judgmental. How about just "who are looking for something monogamous/simpler/else."

As a friend of mine says, poly is twice the fun and four times the work. And some people are mono; I agree they shouldn't force poly people into their lifestyle, but by the same token, they should not be denigrated for wanting what feels right to them.
Posted by Jane Jones on January 26, 2011 at 11:14 PM · Report this
77
Today, Dan, you are truly the Joe Morgan of sex advice columnists.

That said, this could all change tomorrow.
Posted by ktrem on January 27, 2011 at 12:35 AM · Report this
78
@40: no, it's not.

To test, remove "dan and" from the sentence and see which one sounds correct:

"put me in an advice column death match"

or

"put I in an advice column death match"
Posted by Shineyshine on January 27, 2011 at 12:47 AM · Report this
79
@40: no, it's not.

To test, remove "dan and" from the sentence and see which one sounds correct:

"put me in an advice column death match"

or

"put I in an advice column death match"
Posted by Shineyshine on January 27, 2011 at 12:49 AM · Report this
80
@78: I think you got confused. Post 40 said "put Dan and me" was correct, which it is, for the reasons you explained.
Posted by BlackRose on January 27, 2011 at 2:19 AM · Report this
81
@59: Why wouldn't they be synonymous? Curvy means having curves, like a big belly and big ass. In other words, fat.
Posted by BlackRose on January 27, 2011 at 3:04 AM · Report this
82
@8 and @28

I think that your comments are basically spam. They perhaps contain a nugget of relevancy, but you are really just using that nugget as a pretense to selfishly advertise your own projects. And it's fucking annoying.

Only a few people are doing it now, but I would hate to see the comments section turn into a space where people are just shilling their own products. I really hope your comments will be removed as spam in the future.
Posted by slidebone on January 27, 2011 at 3:59 AM · Report this
83
@23

YOU GO GRRRL!

Although I don't agree that Dan sucks, we could use some cross-support on the choice issue.
Posted by Sea on January 27, 2011 at 6:49 AM · Report this
pastaefagoli 84
@81, no, curvy is having small waist:bust and waist:hip ratios. While someone who is fat may be curvy, not all fat people are curvy and certainly not all curvy folks are fat (I would say most are not, I have curves, I am far from fat).
Posted by pastaefagoli on January 27, 2011 at 7:08 AM · Report this
85
"I am not now, nor have I ever been, the Archbishop of Canterbury." Should be on a t-shirt.

Maybe THIN, your lack of confidence makes you aim low--why would chunky girls turn your down when it's already hard for them to get a date--and maybe said "chunky girls" can sense this. Playing it safe isn't sexy and doesn't make your partners feel sexy.

Speed Disclosure: on your name tag, below your name, write, "Bi, poly." Then you start by asking questions before the other person does. If they won't answer and fixate on "bi, poly," then you know you don't have a match. Why would you invest a second, third, or fourth date in someone who does not want your lifestyle?
Posted by Screen Name Whatever on January 27, 2011 at 9:37 AM · Report this
86
My guess is that THIN's attempts at boosting his exes egos come on too strong and too fake. If they have body issues, these women know they're fat, and are not comfortable with it. It can come across as fake if the person they're with constantly hammers on how beautiful their size is, especially if it's the typical response to expressing their own negative views of their size. In order to make them believe you truly care and value them, LISTEN to them. When they express displeasure with their weight, don't immediately blurt something like, "No, you're beautiful!" Even if that's how you feel. Give them empathy and understanding, "It sounds like you're feeling really discouraged right now," etc. Then, only AFTER you have acknowledged their feelings, follow it up with some gentle attempts at self esteem repair. "While I understand why you might feel self conscious about your weight because of society, I want you to know that I love you just the way you are and I think you're beautiful. I wouldn't change anything about you, but I'll support you in anything you do." That means offering them support if what they're looking for is losing weight, too. People expressing concerns want to know that you are listening to them, even the best intentioned statement meant to contradict their issues can simply come across as blowing off their concerns if you do not acknowledge, empathize and support first and foremost. And above all, don't focus on her fat as being the REASON she is beautiful. She is beautiful just as she is, not because of one particular aspect.

And, as others have pointed out, you may come across as a creepy fetishist. Are you a creepy fetishist, THIN? Remember, the psychological definition of a fetish is an attraction to a non-human object. I know, that's not the colloquial use of the term, but it's telling - many people who fetishize a particular type of person DO end up treating them in much the same way they would a sexy, non-human object. This tendency can become worse if the attractive quality the person represents is one that society itself sees as lesser. It's okay to have a strong attraction to big women, but acknowledge that they are *women* first and foremost, your attraction is just icing on the cake.
More...
Posted by DrReality on January 27, 2011 at 10:46 AM · Report this
87
The feminine-form, maybe over the masculine form (since women don't achieve arousal as men do), exaggerates access to her happy hunting-grounds. Curves can exaggerate this further, but maybe at the expense of the pretense of control from being skinny. Children won't ridicule a girl who develops early because she's somehow less feminine (children in the stage where their sex-drive has yet to kick-in enforcing gender-standards), but because she's seen as having less control (in contrast to boys who mature early). Skinny porn-models have to compensate for this dynamic in how they pose (demonstrating they have lost control of themselves), but you see curvy porn-models getting away more often with casual posing, benefiting from an inherent advantage in regard to sexual portrayal.
Posted by Mike Leung on January 27, 2011 at 12:26 PM · Report this
88
Re: " I'm also very involved with the Episcopal Church and want to become a leader in my church. I don't think that my
predilection for bondage and my desire to pursue ordained ministry conflict"

Here is a documentary about a gay man both working toward getting ordained and also participating in master/slave puppy play contests:
http://www.wiseorchid.com/pupumentary/
Posted by an108 on January 27, 2011 at 12:47 PM · Report this
sanguisuga 89
@84 "Curvy" means what people want it to mean. Someone might look at you and think curvy, and the next one down might say fat. And the guy after that might say you're too skinny! It's subjective. All the confusion over the terms amuses me. Call it whatever you want to!
Posted by sanguisuga on January 27, 2011 at 2:12 PM · Report this
90
@84: I would never describe someone light and skinny as "curvy," even if she had big boobs and wide hips.

That is just not how the word is used: if it was ever used in only that way, it's been taken over by fat people wanting a nicer-sounding word to use, much the way "voluptuous" has.
Posted by BlackRose on January 27, 2011 at 2:26 PM · Report this
91
@87, my god, Mike, I understood one of your posts. Will wonders never cease.
Posted by EricaP on January 27, 2011 at 2:31 PM · Report this
sanguisuga 92
@90 Ding! YOU would never use the term that way. If a fat chick wants to make herself feel better by adopting the term "curvy", so what? I just don't see what the big deal is over terminology.
Posted by sanguisuga on January 27, 2011 at 4:24 PM · Report this
93
@92: You got what I said backwards. Read what I wrote again. I said curvy = fat and that's totally cool with me. It was 84 who thought only boob/hip/skinny waist curves were deserving of the word "curvy."
Posted by BlackRose on January 27, 2011 at 4:44 PM · Report this
94
To THIN

What I say may be very un PC...but have you considered black girls. My black friends simply do not have the same hangups about body size that my white friends do. Both the men and the women.

Of course this may be moot. Maybe you are already dating all colors.

Watch the TV Drop Dead Diva or Oprah....or otherwise learn a bit more about personality, pride, and carriage of a person and learn to be attracted to people who don't need you to "make" them feel good.

My guess is you're striking out with your chicks is cuz you haven't found your own confidence yet so you go for unconfident girls. Despite what you say about embracing yourself and your own body, ya really haven't. Perhaps you're looking for a girl to "make" you feel ok. You'll find neither confidence or a confident girl if you don't truly feel comfortable in your own skin.

The advice about listening was the best. But if you hear a girl say, I want to lose weight, poor me, simply say, I like you the way you are. Then dont pursue her anymore. You want a big chick who says...Hey let's dance, you skinny cool guy!!! Get a person who already likes who they are and who likes you the way you are.
Posted by bumper on January 27, 2011 at 5:30 PM · Report this
95
for speed disclosure, just tell em you're sexual. You want to connect as humans if it progresses. That lets them know that you don't do non-humans, but you want a connection not just sex.
Posted by justan opinion on January 27, 2011 at 6:16 PM · Report this
96
BlackRose,

This is ridiculous. Curvy women originally meant women with many curves-- in-curves and out-curves, hence not fat women, who are all out-curve. Try reading detective lit of the mid 20th. Yes, fat women are capturing curvy for themselves. It's like homos catching gay.
Posted by Hunter78 on January 27, 2011 at 7:00 PM · Report this
97
@96: about the only thing with all "out" curves is a ball. I'm more than a few pounds overweight, and not exactly an ideal hourglass figure, but there's still plenty of in curves to be found.

I'd be inclined to describe someone as "curvy" as long as her traditionaly desirable curves (ie breasts, hips/butt) stick out more than (traditionally) less desired ones like belly and limb diameter.
Posted by Melissa Trible on January 27, 2011 at 10:37 PM · Report this
98
I'm SD from the column. A couple things that Dan left out of my letter or to answer comments above. I'd prefer not to be identified, so I'll be a little bit elliptical here; sorry for omitting identifying details.

1. My current arrangement w/ the bf is that he approves on a case-by-case basis. So far it's been fine in that regard; he's comfortable so long as he's well informed, and I'm very good about that. If anything I prefer to err way more on the side of ensuring his comfort than hitting on all the hot guys (and some hot girls) there are around here.

And seriously, there's so much eyecandy here! Pity that a lot of 'em are less than 1/2 my age + 7.

2. I used to live in SF Bay Area, and am familiar with the whole poly cultur thing, but I'm currently elsewhere. It's a very large, liberal university town. The dating event is being held by the university.

3. Dan omitted the "recently" modifier of "long distance". To be honest I'm not really looking for another primary; the amount of compatibility I have w/ my bf is way more than I've had with anyone else, and he fulfills to satiation most of my needs. But given the distance, I'd just like to have some sort of nice, relaxed, friends-and-benefits situation here too, to fulfill more my needs for touch, in-person companionship, & sex.

I won't be here for more than a year or so, so honestly I'm also a bit leery of starting another long-term relationship here.

I guess I'd rather select for smart/hot than bi/poly per se, in that I figure I can explain that part to most people who don't necessarily participate in the whole "poly community" thing, which... well, I don't really do either.

To be a bit blunt... I'm actually slightly uncomfortable with the "huge network" style of poly. I'd rather have a comfortable little triad or quad, or share someone who's in another diad. That's just me-personally comfort, not making any judgments about what works for others of course.

But Dan's right, if they're not cool with it, then that's automatic disqualification.

I'd probably at least wear one of my rainbow pieces of clothing or triangle pins just as an obvious queerness signal.

Other suggestions welcome.
More...
Posted by Speed Disclosure on January 27, 2011 at 10:55 PM · Report this
99
I'm SD from the column. A couple things that Dan left out of my letter or to answer comments above. I'd prefer not to be identified, so I'll be a little bit elliptical here; sorry for omitting identifying details.

1. My current arrangement w/ the bf is that he approves on a case-by-case basis. So far it's been fine in that regard; he's comfortable so long as he's well informed, and I'm very good about that. If anything I prefer to err way more on the side of ensuring his comfort than hitting on all the hot guys (and some hot girls) there are around here.

And seriously, there's so much eyecandy here! Pity that a lot of 'em are less than 1/2 my age + 7.

2. I used to live in SF Bay Area, and am familiar with the whole poly cultur thing, but I'm currently elsewhere. It's a very large, liberal university town. The dating event is being held by the university.

3. Dan omitted the "recently" modifier of "long distance". To be honest I'm not really looking for another primary; the amount of compatibility I have w/ my bf is way more than I've had with anyone else, and he fulfills to satiation most of my needs. But given the distance, I'd just like to have some sort of nice, relaxed, friends-and-benefits situation here too, to fulfill more my needs for touch, in-person companionship, & sex.

I won't be here for more than a year or so, so honestly I'm also a bit leery of starting another long-term relationship here.

I guess I'd rather select for smart/hot than bi/poly per se, in that I figure I can explain that part to most people who don't necessarily participate in the whole "poly community" thing, which... well, I don't really do either.

To be a bit blunt... I'm actually slightly uncomfortable with the "huge network" style of poly. I'd rather have a comfortable little triad or quad, or share someone who's in another diad. That's just me-personally comfort, not making any judgments about what works for others of course.

But Dan's right, if they're not cool with it, then that's automatic disqualification.

I'd probably at least wear one of my rainbow pieces of clothing or triangle pins just as an obvious queerness signal.

Other suggestions welcome.
More...
Posted by Speed Disclosure on January 27, 2011 at 10:57 PM · Report this
100
re: 91: please keep in mind my post is consistent with everything else I say.
Posted by Mike Leung on January 28, 2011 at 5:31 AM · Report this
101
@100, I'm sure it is, and I apologize for the snarkiness of my post @91...
Posted by EricaP on January 28, 2011 at 10:17 AM · Report this
102
@98/99, since you're leaving town soon, I'd stress that initially: you're looking for a short-term partner for adventures (in and out of bed). For many people, that will be the deal-breaker. (ie, that if they really like you, you're leaving anyway, so they may have wasted a year plus face heartbreak at the end...)

But, me, I'm also looking for short-term adventures. So what I recommend thinking about ahead of time are some cool adventures you'd like to do (film fest, clubbing, kayaking, whatever's your thing) -- then see if you can find someone at the speed-dating thing who also thinks those adventures sound like fun.
Posted by EricaP on January 28, 2011 at 11:39 AM · Report this
103
@102 - FWIW "my thing" is any combination of sensuality (I'm extremely reactive to pleasant things) and intellectual games. I.e. I'd like someone I click with to cuddle, share skritches, have good deep conversations with, etc. Oh and hot sex would be nice. :-P

(Though looking at it, I guess it's true that though my libido is highish, sex isn't as important for me compared to those other things.)

I probably wouldn't initiate physical dates like kayaking just because it's not really familiar to me (and honestly I've never really had "dates" in the usual sense, so my imagination for those kind of more typical dating ideas is poor). I'd probably be willing to go along for that if the other person suggested it, though, as I'm happy to try anything twice that's not too dangerous or unethical.

You make a very good point, that the short-term restriction is more likely to be something to be upfront about, since (unlike bi/poly) it changes what kind of relationship we'd have. Thank you.
Posted by Speed Disclosure on January 28, 2011 at 1:54 PM · Report this
Azul 104
@98/99 just curious - is the event you're going to soon gay or straight?
Posted by Azul on January 28, 2011 at 3:06 PM · Report this
105
@104 - They're still working that out. I'm encouraging them (with some pressure from the university's official diversity people) to make it LGBTQ-friendly so that everyone can attend regardless of sexual/gender orientation and have it handled appropriately. But TBD.

Entirely possible it'll turn out to be a "straight" even with a second "gay" one.
Posted by Speed Disclosure on January 28, 2011 at 3:44 PM · Report this
Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In 106
@33
"The church is a business..."

I'm glad _someone_ w/in the church publicly admits this.

Money is given to you, tax-free???

Cha-CHING!!!
Posted by Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In on January 28, 2011 at 4:07 PM · Report this
107
"queer, feme, sub" What is that? Is that a guy?
Posted by wolfhound on January 28, 2011 at 4:34 PM · Report this
108
Wow, angry people. I thought you all would want to know this shit. Fuck, if someone mentioned the it gets better project, you'd all relax. I did not intend to spam - my apologies if y'all took it as such. I was pissed Dan, who is 100% sex positive towards ladies, ignored a woman's issue while promoting one that benefited gay men, natch, and lesbians w/out mentioning Roe. To the abusive assholes - go fuck yourselves. This week's article discussed a woman's insecurity - you think the fact most men in power play fast & loose w/ women's rights has no bearing on the psyche of women? It does. And it's permeated through all culture.
Posted by Ms.11 on January 28, 2011 at 4:56 PM · Report this
109
Azul,

"@98/99... ."

That's the way to respond to moronic double-posters-- respond to both msgs at the same time.

Posted by Hunter78 on January 28, 2011 at 5:27 PM · Report this
110
"rugby build" man = "curvy" woman
(Rugby Build = inclusive between Ben Cohen and Austin Power's Fat Bastard)
Posted by usagi on January 28, 2011 at 6:36 PM · Report this
111
@109 - Double post wasn't intentional, obviously. And if it allowed deletion of your own comments, I would've removed the accidental double post.

IOW: Chill out. Accident != moronic. Go vent on /b/.
Posted by Speed Disclosure on January 28, 2011 at 6:42 PM · Report this
112
usagi,

Sorry, couldn't make the conxion.
Posted by Hunter78 on January 28, 2011 at 6:47 PM · Report this
113
To LIFE: it's possible that your GF is less worried about dying before you than she is about getting old before you.

If your relationship lasts for years but not "forever," it could be harder for her to find a new love when she's older than if she looked now for someone closer to her age.

If you do stay together until death do you part, she may eventually become frail and physically dependent on you - leaving her to question whether you could possibly stay attracted to her when she's no longer able to keep up the physical end of your Dom/sub relationship, whether you're just staying with her out of obligation, etc.

You *could* try to reassure her on these points, but the fact is that even without an age difference to reckon with, no one can know for sure how they're going to feel about their partner in one year, let alone 10 or 20 years.

If either of you is looking right now for The One, those long-term aging issues will always be hovering in the air above you. If you're both looking for a grand affair that will burn hot and bright for a year or two, leaving you with fond memories and maybe an enduring friendship, there's little harm in brushing those issues aside. But it's probably a good idea to clarify what you each currently want out of a relationship in general, independent of whether you want those things from each other.
Posted by MsChris on January 28, 2011 at 7:42 PM · Report this
114
@108

You insulted Dan, angrily instructed us all to engage in political activity that is in no way relevant to the subjects being discussed here, and now are peeved that you're perceived as a spammer?
Posted by chicago girl on January 28, 2011 at 8:31 PM · Report this
DRashon 115
THIN i have a girlfriend in this exact situation. Her boyfriend is skinny while she is average and all she can seem to focus on is her insecurities. I feel like this will be a constant problem in your relationships until you find a girl completely sure of her worth.
Posted by DRashon http://twitter.com/D_Rashon on January 28, 2011 at 10:49 PM · Report this
116
@115, I agree with you (see @5), but, that said... this ---

"until you find a girl completely sure of her worth"

-- that's, um, going to take a while.
Posted by EricaP on January 29, 2011 at 12:29 PM · Report this
117
Dear Dan,
My boyfriend and I used to be HUGE fans of yours, looking forward to your column every week until one day recently, we realized what a hypocritical "bigot" you are in your own sense. We are the proud owners of a PIT BULL that is a trained service dog and provides therapy to sick children and aging seniors. You are perpetuating the stereotype of them with your remarks that are EXACTLY like the ones you fight against for yourself and other stereotyped minorities. Good job leading your followers in harboring more hate for a breed that is already over bred and abused because of comments and beliefs like yours. Thank you for letting everyone know that you really aren't as open minded as you want everyone to think and good luck with your self-righteous agenda.

Love,
2 Less Fans & Rita, the pit bull
Posted by Heather808 on January 29, 2011 at 2:35 PM · Report this
118
Dear Dan,
My boyfriend and I used to be HUGE fans of yours, looking forward to your column every week until one day recently, we recently realized what a hypocritical "bigot" you are in your own sense. We are the proud owners of a PIT BULL that is a trained service dog and provides therapy to sick children and aging seniors. You are perpetuating the stereotype of them with your remarks that are EXACTLY like the ones you fight against for yourself and other stereotyped minorities. Good job leading your followers in harboring more hate for a breed that is already over bred and abused because of comments and beliefs like yours. Thank you for letting everyone know that you really aren't as open minded as you want everyone to think and good luck with your self-righteous agenda.

Love,
2 Less Fans & Rita, the pit bull
Posted by Heather808 on January 29, 2011 at 2:39 PM · Report this
119
WOK ..... WTF! Look dude you may be a good guy you may be able to make a conribution in the socio-therapeutic realm , but you are nobodys CHristian spiritual leader. Religion is normative ie.there are rules to this and being gay and liking kink can be many things but it is not fit behavior for the guy at the ALTAR of the church. You are supposed to represent the highest standard of the brand you represent and not consciously and deliberately engage in beavior that falls WAAy short of "the glory". Fairly monogamous ? What you only get peed on by 1 guy at a time for months at a time? How many partners in a 2 year period ? five years? Dude you should be in the pews and work in a state social work agecy not trying to lead anyones Christian flock. There are rules to this shit and the guy wrote a manual!(notorious big) This is not debatable! I like to bang black chicks doggy style but I am not claiming to be particularly religious.
Posted by obamah8r on January 29, 2011 at 3:10 PM · Report this
120
@THIN: First of all I want to say that I really appreciate the fact that someone as young as you can be up front and honest in the world about liking big women when it's probable that doing so cost you at least some street cred with other youngish types.

I am 5'6" and 360 pounds. I know from experience that discrimination against the overweight is deeply and painfully real and something a lot of people have been raised to think is okay and have no idea contributes to intense suffering in the world.

I also married a very thin man. We met when we were both 19, but I was pursued by several of the "I like fat girls, but only in private" types for a long time before I realized he was the one. When my then-casual boyfriend first started with the dirty talk about how much he liked my size and certain parts of me, etc., I was VERY uncomfortable. I first thought he was lying to make me feel better and thinking I wouldn't know the difference. Got over that. Then I thought he was purely into the fetish aspect, not the emotion, and just wanted to get his rocks off to the idea of me eating and gaining weight. Got over that. I finally realized that he not only wanted me sexually, he also really loved me, was committed, and didn't care what other people thought about us being together. After five years, we got married. We now have a truly satisfying sex/intellectual/general life, and are about as happy as anyone else in this world.

So THIN, you are in demand. If you can be patient, consistent, and find the right woman to commit to no matter what even if it takes her a few years to figure your angle on things... your dreams shall come true.

On a separate note: what the fuck is up with pit bull girl and "this is not debatable" guy? I was hoping the intelligent discussion wasn't over yet.
More...
Posted by zell_zyte on January 29, 2011 at 7:36 PM · Report this
121
@119 Thank you for being an excellent example of the point I'm about to make.

@WOK: As a daughter of clergy, I'd like to warn you that a LOT of congregants in every congregation everywhere want their leaders to be the epitome of moral perfection (whatever that means to that particular congregant), so that they won't have to be perfect themselves. They want to feel that they are represented by somebody morally perfect.

This is true no matter where you go, and whether or not they know you're kinky.

Don't internalize this insane expectation.

Even if your congregants don't know the details of your sex life (and I don't know why you'd tell them), they'll still always find something to criticize. Get good at handling criticism, it goes with the territory. :) Good luck!
Posted by SpaceGirl on January 29, 2011 at 8:26 PM · Report this
122
Heather808 and bf,

Good luck on finding a pit-bull friendly good sex columnist.
Posted by Hunter78 on January 30, 2011 at 5:14 AM · Report this
123
WOK,

The solution is simple. Make the little theological side step to the RC. You'll find your gayness unofficially, but enthusiastically welcome by your peers and the hierarchy. The medieval social structure of the Church offers plenty of scaffold for kink and bondage. How about some Inquisition play?
Posted by Hunter78 on January 30, 2011 at 5:33 AM · Report this
124
Seriously. What is a "queer femme sub"? Even Google doesn't know.
Posted by wolfhound on January 31, 2011 at 3:03 PM · Report this
125
@124, she's a lesbian, fairly feminine in her appearance, and submissive sexually.
Posted by EricaP on January 31, 2011 at 7:12 PM · Report this
126
@125, Thanks! I just love all of our "labels".

:-)
Posted by wolfhound on February 1, 2011 at 5:07 AM · Report this
127
SD needs to avoid speed dating.

If he can’t sum up the core essence of his personal life in five minutes without freaking out other patrons then speed dating is not for him. Find another way to meet people.
Posted by mcritz on February 1, 2011 at 7:44 AM · Report this
128
In regards to previous poster., yeah, I am gonna go out and tell a "curvy" woman that I like her hot figure, but would like her better if she was thinner. I am sure that will go over real well.
Posted by rp on February 1, 2011 at 2:36 PM · Report this
129
SD needs to avoid speed dating. People are there to find someone to date and maybe a mate. They are not there to be sexual entertainment for a couple. Why don't people like this just go to adultfriendfinder and leave those of us trying to find a relationship ALONE?
Posted by koshkamat on February 1, 2011 at 3:05 PM · Report this
130
First of all, I love this column, it has saved me. Second to THIN, I am a big girl, and really if you were to tell me that you thought I was dead sexy because of that, I would be just fine. But, other women these days are not gonna be happy with you sayin that. I am a freak, I except that fact that I am a little chunky. But you just need to treat them like you would a skinny women (except if you don't like skinny women, then don't treat 'um like that, you will be slapped, but you know what I mean...hopefully)
Posted by likingwhatisee on February 1, 2011 at 3:11 PM · Report this
131
@117: "we realized what a hypocritical "bigot" you are in your own sense. We are the proud owners of a PIT BULL that is a trained service dog and provides therapy to sick children and aging seniors. You are perpetuating the stereotype of them with your remarks that are EXACTLY like the ones you fight against for yourself and other stereotyped minorities"

look lady, you should be able to get married to your lousy death machine if it so pleases you
Posted by people who buy pitbulls to be a minority are dumb on February 1, 2011 at 10:17 PM · Report this
132
@129 If I just wanted a fuck as you suggest, I'd go on AFF or Craigslist. You seem to think I meant "open relationship" or "swinging", not "poly". What makes you think I'm not trying to "find a relationship"?

I think you missed that my BF is long distance. Even if that weren't the case, I'm looking for an actual date, with maybe a medium-term relationship, for myself - not "sexual entertainment for a couple". Pretty much the same as anyone else going to a speed dating event, except that I also have an existing boyfriend.

Please go read http://xeromag.com/fvpoly.html so you at least know what you're talking about.
Posted by Speed Disclosure on February 1, 2011 at 11:11 PM · Report this
133
For LIFE:

Many years ago, against my better judgement, I fell in love and was in a committed relationship with a girl 19 years younger than me. I was early forties at the time, and yeah it was a ego trip at first, but like you, we got along great,shared many interests etc etc. At the time we met, she was a goldstar radical lez college girl, and I'd been around the block a few times bi,straight and gay in my younger years, but now I was ready to settle down. She insisted she was also, and that I was the "one". It lasted for 5 years-----then she started questioning her own identity. I saw the writing on the wall, and even tho it was painful, breaking up was the right thing to do. Eventually over the next few years, I met the love of my life (my age) and my young ex experimented with everything but German Shepards (tho I have doubts that didn't happen also) and is now married to a man and a mother.

So LIFE, you didn't say how old you are, but maybe your older lover is just trying to protect herself, and the both of you in the long run.
Good luck whatever you decide.
Posted by undertack on February 2, 2011 at 8:51 AM · Report this
134
@132: Agreed, of course. But I just wanted to mention that you can find relationships of many different types on AFF or Craigslist, and that I'm sure there will be people at the speed dating event just looking for a fuck.
Posted by BlackRose on February 2, 2011 at 10:56 AM · Report this
135
I have to disagree with people saying THIN shouldn't say he's attracted to chubby girls. Chubby girls shouldn't have to be in denial to accept themselves - in fact, that's a nonsequitur, as denial is the antithesis to acceptance. THIN shouldn't have to be ashamed of his liking for chubby girls. But a chubby girl who feels bad about being chubby obviously doesn't like chubby girls herself.

I think that's an issue for the women themselves. It sucks, but THIN can't be the white knight for them so long as they are so self-loathing. Maybe they do get worse being with THIN because he doesn't ignore the elephant in the room (for want of a less offensive idiom) and openly admits that he sees them as chubby, which is confronting to many a self-conscious chubby girl who is secretly hoping it's all in her head. But sometimes it has to get worse before it gets better. Sometimes dealing with the distasteful realisation that they really are as chubby as they see themselves in the mirror is what has to happen before they decide to either hate themselves into thinness or accept who they are and keep dating more THIN-type guys.

Sure, their identity shouldn't revolve around being chubby, but THIN shouldn't have to hide the fact that he likes their bodies when men with slimmer girlfriends wouldn't have to do so.
Posted by chubby checker on February 3, 2011 at 8:35 PM · Report this
butterfly 136
THIN...I'm the girl for you. Curvy and totally secure with myself and looking for a man to appreciate that!!!
Posted by butterfly on February 5, 2011 at 8:17 PM · Report this
137
@44 - "If someone likes what they see, they have every right to say it - it's incumbent on the woman in possession of said set of fashionably questionable curves to learn to take a compliment."

I sincerely hope you're not one of those creeps who "compliments" women on the street by making comments at them and then blaming them for not liking what YOU have to say.
It is NOT your "right" to say whatever you like to others. Why should the rest of the world have to change to accept YOUR opinion.
Try some self-restraint and also consideration for others. If you're not one of those creeps who makes vulgar comments at women then the message still applies: It is not up to the rest of the world to change for you. You are the only one who can change.
It is always incredible to hear folks say they "have the right to say what they want to others" and then expect others to accommodate them.
Nope, it doesn't work like that. Have some basic responsibility for your actions then you'll understand. The rest of the world doesn't have to "learn how to take a compliment" just because you don't know how to keep your mouth shut. There are more insecure fat women out there than there are "fat and happy or proud" ones. Add to that, the concept of the chubby chaser to the mix and you have fertile ground for all sorts of insecurities and then YOU wonder why such women "can't take a compliment?"
Also, what may sound like a compliment to YOU may sound like a jibe or even an insult to a more sensitive person.
Sure, say what you want because you have "every right to say it" but don't complain when the person hearing it has every right to tell you where to get off.
Choose your words carefully and don't expect others to always understand your meaning. Everyone is different and we all have our own life experiences and upbringings which sometimes makes communication not exactly what you think it is supposed to be.
More...
Posted by Frederica Bimble on February 8, 2011 at 6:24 PM · Report this
138
@ 75 - Seriously? Completely rude, self-indulgent post from a troll. Go play in the road.
Posted by Frederica Bimble on February 8, 2011 at 6:39 PM · Report this
139
@ 90, 92 and 93, the word "curvy" used to mean bodies like Sophia Loren or Bo Derek or Marilyn Monroe but the word has, indeed, been taken over by fat people to describe bodies that look like the Hindenburg but the word "curvy" makes them "feel better."
Curvy still means curvy and fat still means fat and anyone who disputes that is just in denial.
If I'm going on to a dating site and someone has written "curvy" to describe their body, then they better look like Bo Derek and not Beth Ditto! Geesh, people.
Posted by Frederica Bimble on February 8, 2011 at 6:57 PM · Report this
140
@114 - Hmmm, if a 14 yr. old gay boy were being beaten up on the daily due to homophobia in Minnesota & I posted it here....would the entire community not immediately call the school board?
You would.

It's the same damned thing. Too bad you're reverence of Dan supercedes your own need to preserve your civil rights.
Posted by Ms.11 on February 9, 2011 at 11:03 AM · Report this
141
And yes,I spelled you're wrong. Your!
Posted by Ms.11 on February 9, 2011 at 11:04 AM · Report this
142
@139 - THIS. Thank you.
Posted by My Name There on February 11, 2011 at 7:44 PM · Report this
143
@THIN -- I think you are going to have to deal with the fact that you like something about women that most women do not like about themselves. So you have to be very sensitive when you offer compliments. Don't compliment rolls of fat, or grab them affectionately if the girl doesn't like being reminded of them, e.g., just say, I love your body, and touch where she seems comfortable.

When you say "chubby" do you mean chubby or do you mean you like obese girls? If the latter, you may have trouble ever finding a woman who agrees that her weight is attractive. Most obese women I know expect to be loved in spite, not because of, their weight. They know it's not healthy for them. If the girls are just chubby, then I agree with Dan's advice. It takes women a little time to get with being chubby, or having the wrong hair, or not having big breasts, or good legs, but eventually we come around. Not in our teens, unfortunately.
Posted by femmeavecchien on February 20, 2011 at 10:57 AM · Report this
144
i've never been thin in my life. it took me a long, long while to like my body...mostly because i worked in a plus sized clothing store and realized that it's not your size, it you..and how you carry yourself. once i figured that out, i became a different person, a sexual person, i accepted men's compliments about my body for what they were, appreciation of my womanly body that appealed to them. a couple of men i dated were heavy themselves and i thought they were hot, so why not the same? i've also dated really thin men who dated me for me and loved it. it's only when i've found men who want me BECAUSE i'm plus sized, before they even know who i am that i get upset. and i think every body type of woman feels this way. no one wants to be wanted just for the way they look, the want to be appreciated and complimented by their men that the man loves their body type, but they want a foundation of something more...a connection that would last even if they gained/lost whatever. i know a few models and i know they get just as irritated by men who want her before they even know her name and never even WANT to find out more. my husband loves my curves, but he loves ME better and that...that's the key to me feeling confident in myself and that confidence leads me to feel sexy as hell..
Posted by smiddenkidden on February 20, 2011 at 1:21 PM · Report this
145
Dan, today is the first time I've read your column, and I'm quite enjoying it. I was told you were quite mean to bigger people, but your reply to THIN was quite sensitive to what overweight people can go through, and respectful to the fact that they *are* people, and I appreciate that.
Posted by IslandBear on February 21, 2011 at 4:14 AM · Report this
146
Dan Savage, I know people wale on you a lot, but you are such a damn net force for good. Thanks for this column and for all the fantastic stuff you do.
Posted by LauraBCM on April 6, 2011 at 2:22 PM · Report this
147

Dr. Magbu is really the best i have ever seen since my husband left me and my kids i have been trying different online spell caster and i did not see any result until a friend of mine gave me his contact Email address that i should contact him that he will be able to help me. The first time he told me what i have to do i thought he was the same as the other so called spell caster but i just have to give it a try which i did and after he did the casting of the spell i started seeing changes my husband send gift to my kids and also wrote a letter that he was going to come back home very soon i was so surprise and now we are back together again thank you My husband came back home after 4days with so much love and care. Here is his contact reunitingexspell@gmail.com . if you wish to seek help from him.

Ann Taurus
Posted by Ann1 on April 7, 2014 at 6:34 PM · Report this

Add a comment