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Proposition 8
November 13, 2008
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Joe Newton
I have to say I'm disappointed.
Proposition 8 passed in California, as did anti-gay-marriage amendments in Florida and Arizona. Decency and compassion suffered a horrible blow, and I was hoping to hear a few words from you about it. Some inspiration before I took off from work to go and protest the Mormon Church. Maybe you had your column written already, but couldn't you have pulled an all-nighter in order to write something more relevant?
A Loyal Reader
Sorry, ALR, but due to the vagaries of the dead-tree media, I file these columns roughly a week in advance. (Please note: At my house, "filing a column" doubles as a euphemism for taking a crap. Make of that what you will.)
But here's my election-night reax, a week late, for what it's worth: I voted for Obama, gave money to Obama, and cried when CNN called it for Obama. But the approval of the Mormon-bankrolled anti-gay-marriage amendment in California quickly snuffed my Obama buzz. I had expected anti-gay-marriage amendments in Arizona and Florida to pass, of course, but voters in California—particularly those who voted for Obama, against the rights of same-sex couples, and for the rights of farm animals—came close to ruining election night for me.
But let's look on the bright side of the anti-gay-marriage amendments, shall we? The openly Republican governor of Florida, Charlie Crist—who got engaged to a real live girl when he was in the running to be McCain's VP—won't have to marry a real live girl now. Because it's illegal for gays to get married now in Florida—right, Charlie? And even in California there's a little good news: Voters approved this year's anti-gay-marriage amendment by much smaller margins (52 to 48) than they approved an anti-gay-marriage law back in 2000 (61 to 38). So... uh... we're winning, even as we're losing.
Or something.
But now, to honor Barack Obama's historic victory, I will answer questions that were e-mailed by readers on election night. While you were obsessing about election returns, there were people out there writing to me about...
I am a completely straight guy. I am madly in love with my girlfriend. One night, she was giving me oral and stuck a finger in my ass. I was uncomfortable at first, but in a little time I began to like it. I found it felt so good. Now my girlfriend asked if I wanted to try a butt plug. At first I said, "Yes!" But now, the more I think about it, I am starting to think it may be gay. My question: Is there something gay about using a butt plug?
Guy With Anal Interests
I've dedicated my life to reassuring panicky straight boys that a little anal stimulation won't make 'em gay. My oft-stated position: If a guy and a girl are doing it during sex—whatever it is, whatever it looks like—it's straight sex. And, yes, that includes a pair of straight girls making out to turn on a straight boy, as well as the far less common straight-boys-making-out-to-turn-on-a-straight-girl scenario.
But no more. From now on, I intend to sow gay panic when and where I can. Maybe straight men, who voted in overwhelming numbers for the various antigay shit on their ballots, won't be so quick to strip gay people of their civil rights if they're worried that one false move—or one finger up the butt—can turn them gay. So for the record, breeder boys: A finger in the butt can make you gay, using a butt plug can make you gay, doing it doggy style can make you gay, playing with your nipples can make you gay, fucking a woman in the ass can make you gay, wiping from front to back can make you gay, standing up to pee can make you gay, and watching dudes hump dudes on ESPN—Ultimate Fighting Championship—for sure makes you gay.
I hope you can help. My boyfriend gets home from Afghanistan next week, and I want to surprise him with anal. I can't find anything online about preparing for it. I don't want to be messy. It's always clean in porn videos. Please advise.
Desperate
Careful there, Desperate, I'd hate to see your boyfriend turn gay. But if you want to risk it, get your hands on a copy of Tristan Taormino's The Ultimate Guide to Anal Sex for Women. But don't blame me if he wants to gay marry you afterward.
I'm a 21-year-old bi guy, and I was recently hanging out at my university's Queer Collective when the issue of the "F" word came up. I argued that it was okay to use the word so long as it's not derogatory. The lesbians, however, thought that it was disgusting slang, almost like using the "N" word to describe black people. What do I do, Dan? Is the "F" word off limits?
Flabbergasted About Glossary
The "F" word should only be used to describe voters in California, Florida, and Arizona who cast ballots for Obama and their state's anti-gay-marriage amendments. We are talking about the word "fuckers," right?
I have a question of a more medical nature for you. My husband and I have been married four months, both virgins at the time of marriage. We have sex three or four times a week and always use lube. The problem is that sex is very painful for me. On my back or from behind is uncomfortable, but tolerable. Me on top is unbearable. My husband is aware of and sensitive to this issue. He makes sure I'm relaxed and will change positions or stop when I ask. Will it get any better? I want to have sex without any hesitation.
Painful Intercourse Needs To Stop
Here's an idea that might help, PINTS: Have more sex but less vaginal intercourse. Get some oral-sex sessions into the mix, along with some mutual-masturbation sessions; in other words, sex you can have without hesitation right now. Then go see a doc to make sure there isn't a medical issue here. If there isn't, slowly work vaginal intercourse back into the mix, experimenting with new positions and lubricants, without eliminating oral and mutual masturbation as stand-alone sex acts you can enjoy with the husband and sex acts you can transition to when vaginal intercourse isn't working for you.
I'm a straight white boy of 25 who is very excited about Obama's victory and the landslide in Congress. Proposition 8 is still undecided, though, while they count votes. I wanted you to know that I'm rooting for you, my uncle, his partner—his husband, actually, as of last week—and every gay man and woman in California.
Stephen
Thanks for the note, Stephen, but Proposition 8 was decided by the time I got it. My condolences to your uncle and his husband.
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2
Hmm, maybe it's time we realize not everyone who identifies as liberal is necessarily a friend of ours, and some are assuredly out to get us. It's pretty obvious the left wing is using us for whatever they can get, and taking us for granted.
What say we get out of bed with the liberal movement? We'd have far better luck with the libertarians, and they tend to be on the right-wing side of the spectrum.
What say we get out of bed with the liberal movement? We'd have far better luck with the libertarians, and they tend to be on the right-wing side of the spectrum.
3
I don't have any advice to share with my fellow readers, but for once I have advice for the normally perfect Dan..... Dan, I voted for Obama as the lesser of 2 evils. I did that only in combination with telling friends that Obama supports "separate but equal". In other words he supports full constitutional rights of same sex unions. He and Michelle are married in the front of the bus and the domestic partners ride in the back. Same bus he argues? Hugh? Forget protesting the churches, keep the heat on spineless democrats. Better yet, open up political debates to 3rd parties. Spread IRV ( ranked choice voting ) beyond SF.
4
The prop 8 decision has ruined my faith in humanity. But you put a good spin on it, that we're getting closer results so we're actually winning. And while I don't believe we're winning just yet, it is nice to be able to feel again that perhaps humanity isn't hopeless.
5
Kiki, your lame comment reminds me of the book "Catch 22," in which Doc Daneeka describes a couple saying that they have sex every night, when the girl is actually a virgin. The doctor shows them how to have vaginal intercourse with plastic models, and they go home and try it. The next day the husband comes in and punches Doc Daneeka, asking him what he's trying to pull.
6
I work in an environment where issues of race are very important, and Wednesday was a day of celebration for most everyone, but I felt terrible disappointment as well, and was thus left out as the only queer at work; no one else even realized what a blow to my community this election was, even while it was a great day for many (myself included: G'OBAMA!). Add to that my residence in MN, and what might have been the most awesome Election Night ever instead bit the dust.
7
If you don't already know about the protests going on this weekend against Prop 8, then you should. There's a website organizing them at:
http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com.
What happened was wrong. Let's do what we can to change it.
http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com.
What happened was wrong. Let's do what we can to change it.
8
dan i just wanted to tell you that i just watched your interview on the colbert report and you were great, as always. he was talking about prop 8, and i was thinking "i should go and see if a new savage love is up this week", and within ten seconds of that thought process, he introduced you, and i screamed a little, i cannot lie. and both of you delivered, it was perfect. thanks for being spectacular.
9
ok well now i think i should respond to PINT. darlin, chances are this is a medical problem. you may have a very shallow vagina, but it is probably medical, or even psychological (if there was abuse in your past this is in fact likely) and i think a trip to your doctor as soon as possible is necessary.
10
it kills me that all the outrage is now! i've been telling people around me about prop 8 for weeks before the election, and no one cared. and now, i'm explaining it to people and only NOW are they mad! i know of gays living in california that didn't vote that day because they thought it wouldn't pass. i think the torch of the gay community has been passed to the younger generation and they are letting it slip. our generation hasn't had to live in hiding, we didn't have a stonewall, we were children through the early days when AIDS was a gay cancer. maybe we needed this blow to snap us, and i mean the gays and the supporting straights here, to attention that life is not all circuit parties and cruises and parades. this is work and there is a hell of a lot more to do!
11
As much as the country's depressing display towards humanity sucks, Angry Dan is fucking great. Between this, Colbert, and the advice to rainbow bear on the podcast, I've laughed out loud thrice today from Dan Savage.
12
Hah! The younger generation, in every racial category, voted for gay rights! It's the bastards over 40 where the majority think it's ok to screw someone over because they're icky.
More important, as someone who volunteered with No on 8, it was like watching the Kerry campaign all over again. Hapless. Useless. No ground game, no outreach, no positive message. Someone, please, do some investigative journalism so we can track who made those idiotic decisions so we can lean on the right people to commit seppuku.
More important, as someone who volunteered with No on 8, it was like watching the Kerry campaign all over again. Hapless. Useless. No ground game, no outreach, no positive message. Someone, please, do some investigative journalism so we can track who made those idiotic decisions so we can lean on the right people to commit seppuku.
13
Remember! Remember!
The Fourth of November!
Bigotry, Treason, and Plot!
I see no reason
Why homophobes’ treason
Should ever be forgot!
The Fourth of November!
Bigotry, Treason, and Plot!
I see no reason
Why homophobes’ treason
Should ever be forgot!
14
The solution to prop 8 is simple.
In Los Angeles, Oakland and San Diego, where there there are Mormon temples, pass a law with simple and direct language. I suggest the law say, Whereas the voters of the state of California have declared that a marriage be between a man and a women. Therefore since the Government has a duty and obligation to regulate the nature of marriage the government has the right to send representative to any marriage to observe and object if necessary. The representatives may not be barred from any church, temple or place of worship or the marriage will not be recognized.
After the law is placed, and the Mormon temple has to allow some nice young non-Mormon representatives in to observe their marriages they will fight for the repeal of prop 8.
In Los Angeles, Oakland and San Diego, where there there are Mormon temples, pass a law with simple and direct language. I suggest the law say, Whereas the voters of the state of California have declared that a marriage be between a man and a women. Therefore since the Government has a duty and obligation to regulate the nature of marriage the government has the right to send representative to any marriage to observe and object if necessary. The representatives may not be barred from any church, temple or place of worship or the marriage will not be recognized.
After the law is placed, and the Mormon temple has to allow some nice young non-Mormon representatives in to observe their marriages they will fight for the repeal of prop 8.
15
Pints problem could be that her husband doesn't know what he's doing and is too rough. The fact that they have to use lube always says neither one of them is taking the time to warm her up. Maybe she does have a short or very tight yones and maybe he is large. All of the above would lead to painful sex. Cutting back on frequincy of intercourse and all that Dan said would be good starters. Sound like they both need to learn how to use their bits.
Regarding prop H8
we have to keep fighting for all equality. I've struggled with it ruining my Obama high too. We all have keep up the fight, it is time to expect unilateral equality, even if it take a bit longer. The one thing I have faith is that this movement will not go away as easly as the haters may like to think it will.
We must presist.....
and until we get there Dan's right, all the men who enjoy ass play of any kind are GAY. Big ole fruity honey dripping gay boys. And any who watch wrestling are highly repressed gay.
Dan I love it when you get spiteful
Regarding prop H8
we have to keep fighting for all equality. I've struggled with it ruining my Obama high too. We all have keep up the fight, it is time to expect unilateral equality, even if it take a bit longer. The one thing I have faith is that this movement will not go away as easly as the haters may like to think it will.
We must presist.....
and until we get there Dan's right, all the men who enjoy ass play of any kind are GAY. Big ole fruity honey dripping gay boys. And any who watch wrestling are highly repressed gay.
Dan I love it when you get spiteful
16
Fight on Brave Dan Savage! Fight on! Righteous victory will be yours in due course. The battle is lost, but the war goes on!
17
What kind of insanity even had Prop 8 on the ballot in the first place? Civil rights should never EVER be placed on referendum, for the simple reason that the majority don't understand the special relevance of them. Hence, they treat them like any other political viewpoint and end up poisoning them with their faux-moralistic ignorant rage.
My sympathies to everyone in these states who has been declared by the majority to be second-class citizens (because that is what you have effectively done, ignorant religious douchebags). Fingers crossed that it gets overturned.
My sympathies to everyone in these states who has been declared by the majority to be second-class citizens (because that is what you have effectively done, ignorant religious douchebags). Fingers crossed that it gets overturned.
18
it's not all bad. This is a good time to change the language of Prop 8 from gay rights to universal human rights. That's the real deal. The margin between yea and nay was pretty tight. so there's always room for improvement. and maneuvering. we'll win. i have no doubts.
19
PINT, your hymen might be too thick...thus it hurts when you have sex. It can be easily fixed by a doctor in no time...so, just go to the doctor!! (and listen to dan too!!)
20
i was in colorado campaigning for obama, and the elation that i felt tuesday night was definitely subdued on wednesday when i heard about prop 8. a woman i had been working with was from california, and she had voted yes on prop 8, because she thought it meant yes to gay marriage. people are idiots.
21
Dan, I read your opinion piece in the New York Times, and I see your comments here. And I just want you to know there are straight guys in the world who think that it is pure evil to do to people what has been done in California. And I'm with you on the Utah boycott. Fuck 'em... up the ass! Matter of fact, I'm interested in a California boycott to boot. On your side here in MN, buddy! You're a voice for morality, and I love the fact that some shitheads will find that ironic.
22
Does anyone on your side of the issue believe it's reasonable for someone to be opposed to same-sex marriage because of anything but bigotry?
23
So gay people and their supporters as a marginalized group want to hate against the Mormons, another marginalized group, for putting money into Yes on Prop 8 campaigns. This seems backwards as all fuck. Why are you stooping to their level and spreading the hate? All Mormons didnt give funding to Prop 8. Stop generalizing against a religious group. If prop 8 didnt pass and the Mormons lined up to throw eggs at gay people their would be a liberal shit storm. Stop blaming the Mormons and realize what we did wrong: completely forgot about campaigning in and mobilizing minority communities.
24
When spreading the hate around let's not forget Arkansas. They have successfully passed a proposition that may be even worse than Prop 8: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1…
25
Take a deep breath. The courts were on your side a few weeks ago when they said you could marry in Cali. What's to stop them from declaring Prop 8 unconstitutional? They can do that, because it is. I firmly believe this is a civil rights issue and the courts can reverse it. Step back from the edge of the abyss! Things may do a little switcharoo and I bet there are already briefs being submitted to the courts. Please don't make a double entendre out of that, I know it's hanging out like a slip beneath a skirt.
26
According to one of my friends, Govenor Schwarzenegger plans to overturn Proposition 8, so hopefully the gays who got married in CA before Proposition 8 passed will get to stay married, and future gay couples will be allowed to get married too.
27
The CA state supreme court can't declare it unconstitutional because it's part of the constitution. The USS Supreme court won't ever see that case because it is clearly a states' rights issue. States have absolute authority over how and when they recognize a marriage. Sexual preference isn't a protected class at the federal level, anyway. The 14th Amendment doesn't cover it.
28
Get your facts rights, Dan. The heavy Obama supporter turnout DID NOT help pass Prop 8. In fact, had California had the same voter turn out it had in 2004 Prop 8 would have passed by a WIDER MARGIN. Stop spreading lies, and encouraging a racial divide that will do NOTHING to overturn this horrible proposition.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/p…
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/p…
29
PINT might also have fibroid tumors. She should get to her gyno - or even her regular family practitioner - soon.
Dan, you were fan-fucking-tastic on Colbert last night. I loved every second of it.
Dan, you were fan-fucking-tastic on Colbert last night. I loved every second of it.
30
Dan and everyone,
There was a hate crime committed against two lesbian women in front of their children November 3rd in Oshawa Ontario. The man responsible is only being charged with assault. We are protesting this on Friday the 14th. For more details please see our facebook group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=38…
Here's an online newspaper article.
http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/…
There was a hate crime committed against two lesbian women in front of their children November 3rd in Oshawa Ontario. The man responsible is only being charged with assault. We are protesting this on Friday the 14th. For more details please see our facebook group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=38…
Here's an online newspaper article.
http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/…
31
Just in case the creator didn't send you a link to these, Dan:
http://www.cafepress.com/stinz
Until 1968, Obama's parents couldn't have gotten married here in VA, which just went blue and helped him into the White House. As much as Prop 8 sucks, this country is going to figure out the right thing to do, and part of that's from people like you testifyin'.
And speaking of testifying, time's marched on to the point where children of open, everyday gay spouses are coming of age to be heard in public, in some numbers I would guess. I look forward to what they'll say about the idiocy and bigotry of straights-only marriage and adoption laws.
http://www.cafepress.com/stinz
Until 1968, Obama's parents couldn't have gotten married here in VA, which just went blue and helped him into the White House. As much as Prop 8 sucks, this country is going to figure out the right thing to do, and part of that's from people like you testifyin'.
And speaking of testifying, time's marched on to the point where children of open, everyday gay spouses are coming of age to be heard in public, in some numbers I would guess. I look forward to what they'll say about the idiocy and bigotry of straights-only marriage and adoption laws.
32
I was proud to tell people I voted against Virginia's referendum in 2006. I just want to offer my condolences to Californians who believed their state was more enlightened than the rest. I'm probably one of the more conservative people who read Dan's column, but I think it is a crime and a shame that committed, loving couples cannot be married because of bigotry. Someone told me, "They have civil unions, it's basically the same thing."
I replied that I was under the impression that Brown v. Board and Bolling v. Sharpe had declared that sort of reasoning unconstitutional. Sadly all I got was a shrug.
I replied that I was under the impression that Brown v. Board and Bolling v. Sharpe had declared that sort of reasoning unconstitutional. Sadly all I got was a shrug.
33
I have similar problems to PINT, although maybe not quite as bad. I haven't totally found a solution but I've found stuff that helps. I've been with my boyfriend for over two years, and when we first had sex (my first time at age 21) we did everything you're supposed to-- we had built up to it slowly for weeks, we did a lot of foreplay, we bought fancy lube, etc. It hurt like hell at first but we went slowly and once we got going it was ok. I didn't mind that much because I knew there was a decent chance of it hurting the first time, what I didn't expect was that it continued to hurt at first for subsequent times. It slowly got better but even after months of having sex, the first penetration nearly always hurts and then fades away a few seconds later and then I enjoy it. And yes I've tried things like using a vibrator first, and we ALWAYS do oral first.
Sometimes its better and sometimes its worse. At one point it was getting worse and worse and I went to the doctor and she told me that my birth control pills were making my vaginal cells "dry and fragile" (after looking at them under a microscope) and she switched me to a different pill with less progestin, which did help a lot, but did not completely solve the problem.
Recently there was a time when it hurt a lot in a different way, I went to the doctor who coudln't really find anything wrong but gave me cream for treating a yeast infection and that seemed to solve that problem. Still weird that the test didn't show up a yeast infection though.
I've never been able to have sex without lube. Since I was on the pill before I ever had sex I can't compare before and after but I highly suspect that that's the cause or a large part of the cause.
So, my main advice is go to a doctor and if you're on the pill try switching to a different one.
If anyone has some advice for me go ahead, but please don't tell me my boyfriend is too rough or I'm not doing enough foreplay because there's no way that could be the problem.
More...
Sometimes its better and sometimes its worse. At one point it was getting worse and worse and I went to the doctor and she told me that my birth control pills were making my vaginal cells "dry and fragile" (after looking at them under a microscope) and she switched me to a different pill with less progestin, which did help a lot, but did not completely solve the problem.
Recently there was a time when it hurt a lot in a different way, I went to the doctor who coudln't really find anything wrong but gave me cream for treating a yeast infection and that seemed to solve that problem. Still weird that the test didn't show up a yeast infection though.
I've never been able to have sex without lube. Since I was on the pill before I ever had sex I can't compare before and after but I highly suspect that that's the cause or a large part of the cause.
So, my main advice is go to a doctor and if you're on the pill try switching to a different one.
If anyone has some advice for me go ahead, but please don't tell me my boyfriend is too rough or I'm not doing enough foreplay because there's no way that could be the problem.
34
PS. I have two separate types of pain, brief pain on penetration and also soreness afterwards if we go on for too long.
36
Amen to Tracey. The apparent apathy among the natural supporters of teh ban is mind-numbing.
I'm so sickened by the whole Prop 8 mess, but mostly by the fact that the Mormon and Catholic churches campaigned so vigorously, spreading hate and fear while invoking the name of God. I guess it goes to show you that once a minority's persecution ends, that minority will pick up the mantle and persecute another group. Just like victims of child abuse who become abusers. So fellow gays, once we have our equality, who should we go after? The mentally ill? Oh, sorry, may be difficult to tell the difference between the mentally ill and the Mormons. Wouldn't want to make that mistake.
I'm so sickened by the whole Prop 8 mess, but mostly by the fact that the Mormon and Catholic churches campaigned so vigorously, spreading hate and fear while invoking the name of God. I guess it goes to show you that once a minority's persecution ends, that minority will pick up the mantle and persecute another group. Just like victims of child abuse who become abusers. So fellow gays, once we have our equality, who should we go after? The mentally ill? Oh, sorry, may be difficult to tell the difference between the mentally ill and the Mormons. Wouldn't want to make that mistake.
37
State marriage laws can go to the supreme court if they violate federal law in the US constitution, such as if they violate a persons right to equal protection under the law. The 14th amendment says, "no state shall abridge..." I'm dubious that its really going to have any traction there before they get around to repealing DOMA for the same reason though.
38
PINTS (and Dan, you should learn this too if you don't already): If you always use lube, and you are a woman under 50, it indicates you are not aroused enough yet to accept a penis into your vagina. All those jokes and whining about lack of foreplay are really about this: When the woman is thoroughly aroused, her cervix tilts into a slightly different position, moving the most tender part out of the way of thrusting and at the same time preparing to receive semen. When a penis hits your cervix in its "resting" position it is excruciating, no matter what position you're in. A doctor visit is a good idea but it's likely that nothing is physically wrong with you and all your parts are working normally. Try these steps: Read erotic stories frequently. Have your husband give you increased casual, sensual touch OUTSIDE the bedroom (like when you're watching a movie, and it's not leading immediately to anything inside your vagina). Make your bed everyday and light candles before sex. As Dan said, have your husband give you lots of oral. Also masturbate under the covers next to him. Then, when you are naturally very wet and totally aroused, try intercourse. Have him enter you very slowly and gradually, because arousal can increase (the the cervix can move into the proper position) as the penis is sliding into you very slowly.
39
One more bit of advice for PINTS and Same Problem: Yes, the pill can lower libido and, therefore, mess with arousal (including natural lubricant). Also, this dietary combination has proven very effective for lots of women as far as their girly parts go: avoid dairy (you can get enough calcium from plants), eat dark chocolate every day, take high-quality fish oil supplements and flax oil every day, and drink two glasses of water when you wake up. Try this. You'll be amazed.
40
First of all, I am all for equal rights and protection under the law. Being a straight, relatively conservative guy, some might say that I have no real perspective on the issue at hand. It seems that all the pundits, so called experts, and lawmakers have a linguistics problem. How can the definition of one simple word, “marriage”, cause one of the most unnecessary social clusterfucks of this generation?
In order to get to the root of the issue one must look closely at the word and the implications of it. Marriage, in most cases, is a ceremonial and sacred thing in most religious doctrines. As the world turns it inevitably got mixed into legal contracts and such. Under the current paradigm, the word marriage is too restrictive. In the eyes of the law, marriage is simply a euphemism for a civil contract between two adults that creates a single household. Why not do away with the word all together in legal settings, and replace it with something inclusive, like civil contract, or household registration. That way any two consenting adults who want to register as a single household can, and still be entitled to all the legal rights that go with “marriage”. That way it can apply to any living situation involving consenting adults even if they are not romantically involved.
If the religious doctrine of any institution chooses to define marriage in a particular way, nobody has the right to say otherwise. Members of that congregation can certainly participate in all the church sanctioned wedding day rituals they want. My solution is simple, inclusive, and does not violate the rights of anyone involved. The word marriage is simply changed to “civil partnership” or something inclusive across the board, and folks have to legally register for them like they always did. If a gay/lesbian couple, want to identify as “married” more power to them. This is America, and nobody has should be denied the legal right to register in a civil partnership with anyone they so choose. Change the language of the law. Sure the so called moral majority will be up in arms about it, but they can go fuck themselves. We are supposed to have a separation of church and state anyway, so this only makes sense in that context as well.
Why can’t any of the pundits or talking heads be rational about this? I suppose rationality doesn’t make good television.
More...
In order to get to the root of the issue one must look closely at the word and the implications of it. Marriage, in most cases, is a ceremonial and sacred thing in most religious doctrines. As the world turns it inevitably got mixed into legal contracts and such. Under the current paradigm, the word marriage is too restrictive. In the eyes of the law, marriage is simply a euphemism for a civil contract between two adults that creates a single household. Why not do away with the word all together in legal settings, and replace it with something inclusive, like civil contract, or household registration. That way any two consenting adults who want to register as a single household can, and still be entitled to all the legal rights that go with “marriage”. That way it can apply to any living situation involving consenting adults even if they are not romantically involved.
If the religious doctrine of any institution chooses to define marriage in a particular way, nobody has the right to say otherwise. Members of that congregation can certainly participate in all the church sanctioned wedding day rituals they want. My solution is simple, inclusive, and does not violate the rights of anyone involved. The word marriage is simply changed to “civil partnership” or something inclusive across the board, and folks have to legally register for them like they always did. If a gay/lesbian couple, want to identify as “married” more power to them. This is America, and nobody has should be denied the legal right to register in a civil partnership with anyone they so choose. Change the language of the law. Sure the so called moral majority will be up in arms about it, but they can go fuck themselves. We are supposed to have a separation of church and state anyway, so this only makes sense in that context as well.
Why can’t any of the pundits or talking heads be rational about this? I suppose rationality doesn’t make good television.
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The California state constitution is the one which the CA Supreme Court ruled allowed same-sex marriage, and which Prop 8 is intended to change, not the Federal Constitution. Changing the CA constitution (as opposed to simply amending it) requires a super-majority vote and approval by the legislature. One of the arguments made by the ACLU and others is that Prop 8 constitutes a change in the CA constitution, not an amendment, and as such should be held to that higher requirement.
There are also a number of efforts to contest the tax-exempt status of the Mormon Church, given that many forms of politicking, particularly those in opposition to the government's stated position, are incompatible with tax-exempt status. (Just ask any small non-religious 501c organization about that...)
I don't have any problem with a church refusing to marry someone for any reason they choose - I don't have to be a member of that church. I am a citizen of California, though, and I have a big problem with my state denying legal rights to someone for no good reason.
There are also a number of efforts to contest the tax-exempt status of the Mormon Church, given that many forms of politicking, particularly those in opposition to the government's stated position, are incompatible with tax-exempt status. (Just ask any small non-religious 501c organization about that...)
I don't have any problem with a church refusing to marry someone for any reason they choose - I don't have to be a member of that church. I am a citizen of California, though, and I have a big problem with my state denying legal rights to someone for no good reason.
43
Ha ha, suckers. Democracy seems pretty cool when people agree with you, or when you're taking money from some people to give to others, but you don't like it so much when it's you who is being told what you can or can't do.
Maybe you should think about getting government out of people's lives and vote for Libertarians instead of Obama or McCain.
Maybe you should think about getting government out of people's lives and vote for Libertarians instead of Obama or McCain.
44
To PINTS, my wife had the same problem (painful intercourse) many decades ago. Many health professionals said it was all in her head, and she needed to relax, needed more time, needed to go slow, needed to do stretching exercises, but basically implied it was her fault and that the root cause was she didn't really like or want sex. That made no sense to either of us because she was very open and loved all kinds of non-coital sex (which we were pretty much resigned to). Finally, after going to many health professionals, one doctor agreed to snip her hymen. The problem went away immediately. Still, I don't think the doctor believed her, because he said, "I guess we broke the cycle," meaning it was really all in her head all along. So my advice is if you don't think it's in your head (i.e. you enjoy your body and sex when it doesn't hurt), find a good doctor, and explain as best you can exactly where and when it hurts.
45
Dan my condolences on Prop 8 going down I believe that all should have the same rights in this country. I am glad no one has mentioned the scapegoat of the african american community. Cali's black pop. is about 8% if 70% voted against that is not many votes still to many though, All people have to undertand that if all are not free none are
48
Dude, the issue wasn't liberals voting against gay marriage, it was conservatives voting for Obama.
49
Wow, people don't get that it wasn't the Mormon church that was successful in squashing Prop 8. It was the black community that came out and voted in record numbers - the black community tends to be very homophomic as a whole (of course there are exceptions as there is to every group), but exit polls show that it was the black votes against Prop 8 that help defeat it.
I am sorry that it didn't pass. Bigotry is bigotry and it is so sad that a group that is so familiar with oppression has no problem oppressing another group.
Hang in there as your day will come.
I am sorry that it didn't pass. Bigotry is bigotry and it is so sad that a group that is so familiar with oppression has no problem oppressing another group.
Hang in there as your day will come.
50
I've been watching the Colbert Report for a long time and have never seen anyone kick as much ass as you did in the interview. Congrats on being pure awesome.
52
Hey, in AZ McCain won, as well as Prop 102, bya bout the same percentage. I voted against both, but no one ever listens to me. I DON'T know how many people switched from Obama to Prop 102, but I doubt it was many.
So, give us a break.
So, give us a break.
53
PINTS is the poster child of abstinence education. Saving yourself until your wedding night (and virginity in general) is way over-rated.
54
I think, tracey s, that young people turned out in record numbers this election. I know that in Pennsylvania, college students can be credited for thousands of votes. They deserve a great deal of respect for the work they have done, and the work they continue to do.
Yes, this generation did have it easier, and the next easier than them. Don't be jealous, be proud of the work you accomplished.
I think that this is the generation of Matthew Shepard and Don't Ask Don't Tell. The generation of Marriage Equality, and National Day of Silence. This generation is definitely working for what it wants.
-President of a Queer Student Union
Yes, this generation did have it easier, and the next easier than them. Don't be jealous, be proud of the work you accomplished.
I think that this is the generation of Matthew Shepard and Don't Ask Don't Tell. The generation of Marriage Equality, and National Day of Silence. This generation is definitely working for what it wants.
-President of a Queer Student Union
55
Dan, you're a great guy, but what do you know from vaginal pain?
PINTS needs to see a gynecologist, preferably one with a specialty in vulvovaginal pain issues. There are various kinds of things that can cause pain during intercourse other than lack of lubrication.
Check out "the V book" by Dr Elizabeth Stewart or "A Headache in the Pelvis" by David Wise and read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulvodynia
PINTS needs to see a gynecologist, preferably one with a specialty in vulvovaginal pain issues. There are various kinds of things that can cause pain during intercourse other than lack of lubrication.
Check out "the V book" by Dr Elizabeth Stewart or "A Headache in the Pelvis" by David Wise and read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulvodynia
56
While everyone is buzzing w/ Obama joy, I've been utterly deflated about Prop 8. Like you, the first thing I noticed was how the numbers reveal a whole lot of Obama voters also passed 8! Depressing.
On a lighter note, this straight girl just agreed to plan the wedding for her lesbian friends who said, "We're not going to let the goverment dictate our love." Amen.
On a lighter note, this straight girl just agreed to plan the wedding for her lesbian friends who said, "We're not going to let the goverment dictate our love." Amen.
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Momo said "All Mormons didnt give funding to Prop 8. "
All Mormons who tithe gave funding to Prop 8.
All Mormons who tithe gave funding to Prop 8.
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DAN SAVAGE, YOU ARE A RACIST LOSER. YOU WILL REAP WHAT YOU SOW, YOU RACIST SLIME.
GAY AND RACIST. HA HA. WHAT A LOSER.
GAY AND RACIST. HA HA. WHAT A LOSER.
59
As a Californian I am angry at our H8ful vote and hope the married ones will take this through the courts and bring back the buzz. Alternatively we could make the whole buss equal with Prop "86", abolishing ALL marriages.
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I am having a hard time understanding why anyone would oppose same-sex marriage in this day and age. seriously, i don't understand the motivation behind the opposition and don't buy the "..disrespect the sanctity of marriage..bla bla bla.." which has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Can everyone just wake the fuck up and stop opposing something that should be embraced?! Two people loving each other and willing to commit into marriage (or however you want to phrase it) is a beautiful thing and should be celebrated. People opposing same sex marriage should re-focus their effort on something worth fighting against such as poverty and crime. Get a clue. --- Shelly_LFD, a straight woman from Canada.
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In response to Squeamish, as a lawyer I can tell you that the US Supreme Court absolutely can rule that it is a violation of the US constitution for any state to deny gay couples the right to marry. States do not have "absolute authority" over how and when they recognize a marriage. Many states had laws against allowing mixed race couples to marry, which the US Supreme Court ruled to be a violation of the US consitution in the 1960s (in the wonderfully named case Loving v. Virginia). One very positive outcome of this election is that Obama will appoint to the Supreme Court (when there are vacancies) open minded judges who will be much more likely to rule in favor of gay marriage than the conservative judges McCain would have appointed. So, as devastating as the loss on Prop 8 is, let's try to keep our spirits up. A new day is coming, although not as soon as we had hoped.
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Dan, saw you with Anderson Cooper - thanks for fighting the battle - but if you ever fight it in such a rude innterupting way, do us all a favor and call in sick - tonight you were the Sarah Palin of your field. Three giant steps back!!
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Go Dan, Go! Just saw you on AC360. You kicked some serious Christian ass. Good job. Loved the, "I hope you don't pray to Jesus with that mouth" comment.
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I also just saw you on AC360. I thought you were both a couple of idiots. Your entire "argument" was based on not letting the other guy speak a word. Nice work. The other guy obviously doesn't like the gays and as such couldn't produce a decent argument either. However, for the most part, I thought Dan was a moron. If that is a voice of the gay community, it is in trouble (they do it to themselves much like the repub. and dem. parties).
Get over yourselves you sad lot. Honestly, "I hope you don't pray to Jesus with that mouth"...what a jackass.
Get over yourselves you sad lot. Honestly, "I hope you don't pray to Jesus with that mouth"...what a jackass.
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I don't mean to go off page and not discuss the topic at hand, but I just saw you on Colbert, and I knew instantly, you had to be in my life. I looked for you on MySpace and FaceBook, but could not find you. If this is the only forum I can get a daily, or weekly dose of you, so be it.
I laughed out loud, several times, during the interview, You're fantastic! I really appreciated you're outlook and wit.
I look forward, to everything that you have to say.
A big fan,
Annette McCarthy
Studio City, Ca
I laughed out loud, several times, during the interview, You're fantastic! I really appreciated you're outlook and wit.
I look forward, to everything that you have to say.
A big fan,
Annette McCarthy
Studio City, Ca
67
Look Dan you are an angry ass gay guy you made a clear racist Tony Perkins look right an he was marriage is between a man and a woman period. Bigotry when has a white gay guy been castrated, lynched,tared and fucking feathered or have to watch as a mob of white men rape your wife and daugters, muther fucker you white gay people can never equate your fucking struggle with that of the African American, not new off the boat muthafuckers but niggas like my family that hve been here. We advocate freedom and protection under the law for all gay people but you are not the same as a man and a woman nor is your fucking struggle the same as African Americans because no gay white muthafuckers men or women have been attacked with dogs waterhoses or beaten down with clubs stick with civil unions that is where this fucking ubsurd issue should stop, racism fuck you!!! bigotry you have no fucking Idea what the hell that is!!!
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To the previous poster (who claims to be "dan savage" -- ha): What a moron you are. Oh really? no gay people have been attacked or beaten, and therefore can't be compared to black people? Better look a little more closely into your hate crimes, because you are incredibly wrong. A lot of gay people have been beaten and killed because they are gay.
We just elected a black president. We haven't elected a gay president, or, for that matter, a woman president. (Hillary got about ten times as much sexist abuse as Obama got racist abuse. While we're at it, I'll point out that black men got the vote waaaaaaay before white women did.)
I care about racism. But I'm really fucking sick of hearing some black people claim that no other form of discrimination compares to what blacks have suffered. Fuck you -- it does. Gay people have been persecuted. Since I mentioned women, I might point out that women all over the world have been raped, mutilated and killed simply because they are women. Other people have suffered other than blacks, purely because of how they look or who they are.
Now that we've got a black president, maybe you'll give a crap about someone else's rights being violated? Isn't it pretty to think so. You don't deserve the rights you've got.
We just elected a black president. We haven't elected a gay president, or, for that matter, a woman president. (Hillary got about ten times as much sexist abuse as Obama got racist abuse. While we're at it, I'll point out that black men got the vote waaaaaaay before white women did.)
I care about racism. But I'm really fucking sick of hearing some black people claim that no other form of discrimination compares to what blacks have suffered. Fuck you -- it does. Gay people have been persecuted. Since I mentioned women, I might point out that women all over the world have been raped, mutilated and killed simply because they are women. Other people have suffered other than blacks, purely because of how they look or who they are.
Now that we've got a black president, maybe you'll give a crap about someone else's rights being violated? Isn't it pretty to think so. You don't deserve the rights you've got.
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although it's not much fun now, time is on your side. Given that most youth today just don't care wether or not gays can marry, in another 10 yrs or so it should be a non issue, as a lot of the current voters die off.
Pushing too hard, too fast like anal, will just cause religious sphictors to tighten up, making things more painfull for everyone.
Pushing too hard, too fast like anal, will just cause religious sphictors to tighten up, making things more painfull for everyone.
70
"Someone told me, 'They have civil unions, it's basically the same thing.'"
Oh, was it Obama? That's his position, you know - no on marriage, yes on civil unions. The basis? His Christian faith. I'd like to see some of that anti-homophobe anger directed at our new prez-elect, but I guess he's off-limits. Can't imagine why.
Oh, was it Obama? That's his position, you know - no on marriage, yes on civil unions. The basis? His Christian faith. I'd like to see some of that anti-homophobe anger directed at our new prez-elect, but I guess he's off-limits. Can't imagine why.
71
dan savage,your eloquence is highly impressive, gay or straight your efforts at both andy cooper and colbert report had to be admired, i simply dont understand americans obsession with religion and at the same time hypocritcal pursuits of democracy, its sad most of these people who seem to uphold the biggoted ideas seem to be the people who are intellectually challenged at the same time uphold religion with unwavering,rigid faith(illogical),i think america should invest more in sciences and education,to get your selves out of this fix.Best of luck in all your pursuits, and kudos to a job well done at the above shows.
72
Dan, saw you on Colbert, GREAT interview! Smart, Good looking guy on TV, HAH, SORRY LADIES, HE's GAY!
73
I voted against Prop 8, my 8-year old daughter argued against it in a classroom debate against her many "Christian" classmates, and I was so sad that it passed. BUT although I know it is little comfort to those who are still discriminated against, polls showed that voters under 30 were against it by a big margin. We must continue to fight for the rights of all, and even as most of us thought 5 years ago that there was "no way" America would elect a black president, we are sure to look back in 10 years and have large majorities wonder at the seismic shift that will have taken place by then. The CA percentage did shift by 10% since the last vote; that's a lot in not much time.
74
Here is the URL link to the video of Dan Savage on the Colbert TV show. Dan, you are so quick and brilliant!
Tiny URL
http://tinyurl.com/dansavage
or the same long link.
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert…
Tiny URL
http://tinyurl.com/dansavage
or the same long link.
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert…
75
saw your gay ass on CNN. Man, you got SCHOOOOOOOLED!!! Go lick your husbands scrodum hair and make yourself feel better.
76
Hey Dan, you mention that Californians voted for the rights of "farm animals". Actually, Proposition 2 had nothing to do with animal rights. It was an animal *welfare* measure that will force factory farms to provide a tiny, modest shred of decent treatment to the animals they exploit for profit. If the animals raised for food had any recognized "rights", they wouldn't be getting intensively confined and brutally murdered by the billions with zero laws protecting their welfare. I voted against Prop 8, I'm sorry you can't marry. But at least you can stand up and turn around.
77
Anonymous-- How involved is that surgery? Do you need anesthesia? I bet it isn't covered by health insurance...
78
Nitwit, there is nothing about gays not getting married in Florida. Gays and lesbians do it all the time. We just don't want them marrying EACH OTHER. Charlie can marry any chick he can get, just like gay men always have. My favorite aunt had the same girlfriend for all three of her marriages.
79
Tatsuya Ishida's brilliant Sinfest hits it on the head, as usual: http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?…
80
Congrats to our American cousins for voting the Democrats back in. I too cried when Obama won - he was my pick from the start.
Sadly, Canada will probably legalize marijuana before gays in America can get married. You will be the last country in the western hemisphere to do so.
Sadly, Canada will probably legalize marijuana before gays in America can get married. You will be the last country in the western hemisphere to do so.
81
To chime in with Tobes, the Colbert Report interview was fantastic. Had to watch it twice to soak in all the witty goodness.
Thank you Dan for an amazing job.
Thank you Dan for an amazing job.
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Maybe there was some confusion - don't argue too much about what people were thinking, because I can guarantee most of them weren't.
Voting Yes on prop 8 meant No to Gay marriage. No on prop 8 meant Yes to Gay marriage. Do you think the average person picked up on this?
Voting Yes on prop 8 meant No to Gay marriage. No on prop 8 meant Yes to Gay marriage. Do you think the average person picked up on this?
83
PINTS & Have the Same Problem
Like Been There Done that and Anonymous' wife, I too had a problem similar to yours. I was not a virgin when I got married and had enjoyed years of fantastic sex, so I definitely knew what I was doing in terms of making sure I was ready for penetration. About a year before my wedding, sex started to become painful. It got to the point that even a inserting a tampon was painful. I went from doctor to doctor, and as soon as I would say "it hurts during sex," they would stick a speculum in (which would hurt) and tell me nothing was wrong. One doctor thought I might have a yeast infection (which I did not), another one tested me for all kinds of STDs even though I informed her that I had always used a condom with previous partners and had been tested since having met my husband. One doctor even laughed at me and told me to drink some wine before having sex. This was really affecting me. I felt horrible that my husband was going to have to live a life of non-penetrative sex! He stuck by me and encouraged me to keep going to different doctors (though he was extremely understanding and happy with the blow jobs and hand jobs and other non-vaginal sex we were having). Finally I went to a doctor who literally drew a picture of a vagina and told me to show her where it hurt. When she saw where I was pointing, she put away the speculum and pulled out some kind of microscope and found that at the opening of my vagina, i had tiny little cysts. She referred me to a colleague who removed them. That really solved the problem. It has been seven years and I have not had any issues since then. I will warn you, however, be patient with yourself if the do manage to find the problem and solve it. You now have in your mind that it is going to hurt upon penetration .. you need to unlearn that reaction .. it takes some time and deliberate practice. Buy yourself a good vibrator and work up to penetration.
The moral of my story: don't take one doctor's word for it if you don't get an answer that satisfies you! You cannot believe how many stories I read of women whose marriages actually had ended because doctors convinced them that they were frigid or they just did not love their husbands enough! Best of luck!
More...
Like Been There Done that and Anonymous' wife, I too had a problem similar to yours. I was not a virgin when I got married and had enjoyed years of fantastic sex, so I definitely knew what I was doing in terms of making sure I was ready for penetration. About a year before my wedding, sex started to become painful. It got to the point that even a inserting a tampon was painful. I went from doctor to doctor, and as soon as I would say "it hurts during sex," they would stick a speculum in (which would hurt) and tell me nothing was wrong. One doctor thought I might have a yeast infection (which I did not), another one tested me for all kinds of STDs even though I informed her that I had always used a condom with previous partners and had been tested since having met my husband. One doctor even laughed at me and told me to drink some wine before having sex. This was really affecting me. I felt horrible that my husband was going to have to live a life of non-penetrative sex! He stuck by me and encouraged me to keep going to different doctors (though he was extremely understanding and happy with the blow jobs and hand jobs and other non-vaginal sex we were having). Finally I went to a doctor who literally drew a picture of a vagina and told me to show her where it hurt. When she saw where I was pointing, she put away the speculum and pulled out some kind of microscope and found that at the opening of my vagina, i had tiny little cysts. She referred me to a colleague who removed them. That really solved the problem. It has been seven years and I have not had any issues since then. I will warn you, however, be patient with yourself if the do manage to find the problem and solve it. You now have in your mind that it is going to hurt upon penetration .. you need to unlearn that reaction .. it takes some time and deliberate practice. Buy yourself a good vibrator and work up to penetration.
The moral of my story: don't take one doctor's word for it if you don't get an answer that satisfies you! You cannot believe how many stories I read of women whose marriages actually had ended because doctors convinced them that they were frigid or they just did not love their husbands enough! Best of luck!
84
Hey pin head Mr. Savage,
Saw you on CNN last night making a fool of yourself and this rediculous notion of gays having civil rights. So, if someone wants to have sex with a tree, that means we all have to adapt and give them special rights...Baloney!
Thank God this wicked lifestyle was voted down in California...you people want to be wicked, do it behind bars like the rest of the criminals in this nation.
Oh! and how humorous of you to quote the bible last night on CNN as you accused the person you were debating of "Bearing false witness". Well, maybe you ought to start with Leviticus Chapter 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an ABOMONATION....look up the word abomination and see what God thinks of your life style.
And since you seem to be aware of the 10 commandments, maybe you ought to consider the part where God says Honor your FATHER & MOTHER...not your father & father or mother and mother.
Saw you on CNN last night making a fool of yourself and this rediculous notion of gays having civil rights. So, if someone wants to have sex with a tree, that means we all have to adapt and give them special rights...Baloney!
Thank God this wicked lifestyle was voted down in California...you people want to be wicked, do it behind bars like the rest of the criminals in this nation.
Oh! and how humorous of you to quote the bible last night on CNN as you accused the person you were debating of "Bearing false witness". Well, maybe you ought to start with Leviticus Chapter 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an ABOMONATION....look up the word abomination and see what God thinks of your life style.
And since you seem to be aware of the 10 commandments, maybe you ought to consider the part where God says Honor your FATHER & MOTHER...not your father & father or mother and mother.
85
to cici and mittens, some of us *are* dry pre 50. Bodies are unpredicatble things. NO matter how worked up I am, I need a spot of lube.
I second the recommendation for checking the birth control.
You also might consider looking into penis-vagina size mismatch. I know there's work around for that.
And VT? I waited- I have ever had one vaginal contact sexual partner, also virgin. We have no worries of sexual diseases, I never had a pregnancy scare, and since I knew my heart and my cunny were linked in my head, I staved off a lot of angst. I think that's more than enough to make up for a rough start.
I second the recommendation for checking the birth control.
You also might consider looking into penis-vagina size mismatch. I know there's work around for that.
And VT? I waited- I have ever had one vaginal contact sexual partner, also virgin. We have no worries of sexual diseases, I never had a pregnancy scare, and since I knew my heart and my cunny were linked in my head, I staved off a lot of angst. I think that's more than enough to make up for a rough start.
86
PINT, I used to have a similar problem with my first boyfriend. Intercourse hurt when I was on top. It gradually dissappeared. Have a doktor check you out though to make sure everything's ok, it will make you feel more assured. Good luck! :)
87
My husband and I are a couple of crazy straight kids, but we have an idea... Let's stop bitching about Prop 8 and do something about it.
Say... every 4th day of every month, gay people and their allies protest the passing of Prop 8 by not not going to work. I mean, California would come to a crashing stop! It'd not only lend visibility to the cause, but be a monthly reminder until the next election...
The author of Spanking the Donkey pointed out a very important aspect that is missing in modern-day social movements: organization and uniformity scare the CRAP out of your enemies.
Say... every 4th day of every month, gay people and their allies protest the passing of Prop 8 by not not going to work. I mean, California would come to a crashing stop! It'd not only lend visibility to the cause, but be a monthly reminder until the next election...
The author of Spanking the Donkey pointed out a very important aspect that is missing in modern-day social movements: organization and uniformity scare the CRAP out of your enemies.
88
What is wrong with everyone bitching about proposal 2 passing? As if alleviating some of the suffering of farm animals is somehow taking votes away from the gay marriage debate. As a vegan and ardent supporter of gay marriage, I find it offensive that people are somehow resentful of the fact that prop 2 passed. Of course I would have liked to see prop 8 pass too, and donated money to both causes, but the bottom line is, they were BOTH good causes. Of course, prop 2 got more votes because it's a lot less controversial, and MAINLY because it doesn't ask regular Joe Schmuck to change anything in their behavior. Come on, people, get over it and go bitch against something that really deserves it.
89
The Mormon Church should lose their tax-exempt status for how they handled this. One requirement of being tax-exempt is that the organization 'may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities'. Pay those taxes, fuckers!!
90
Yay for you. Sow that gay panic! I think it's about goddamn time.
I'm still on a high about yesterday because I LIVE IN CT and we are now, at long last, civilized. Or close enough. I'm ready to give everyone in the state a high five, until I remember we still have Joe Lieberman to kick around.
But last night I went to bed with my (straight) husband and felt safer than ever in our marriage. All those gay people are off the streets now, no longer tempting him because now they can be just as boring as we are. Hey, how come no one ever thought of that argument, eh? The married people=boring factor is worth looking into.
I'm still on a high about yesterday because I LIVE IN CT and we are now, at long last, civilized. Or close enough. I'm ready to give everyone in the state a high five, until I remember we still have Joe Lieberman to kick around.
But last night I went to bed with my (straight) husband and felt safer than ever in our marriage. All those gay people are off the streets now, no longer tempting him because now they can be just as boring as we are. Hey, how come no one ever thought of that argument, eh? The married people=boring factor is worth looking into.
92
Same Problem: It is normal to have a small amount of pain at the moment of penetration as your vagina is stretched open. It is also normal for it to get painful after you've been at it for a while. Your vagina is a delicate thing and can only take so much. (We're talking, like, over an hour.) You'll run out of natural lubricant and artificial ones just don't last as long, because you have to keep applying them. If he goes too long just tell him to hurry it up, or suck him off!
93
Dan, as an outspoken opposer to Prop H8 on the other side of the country, watching the news announce it's passing nearly broke my heart. A few years ago, in my home state of Virginia, a similar proposition passed, and it's passing not only saddened me but interested me greatly in the topic of gay marriage. Until then, I never really gave it much thought, but seeing how deeply hatred runs through this country has made me an avid supporter of gay rights. I hope and pray that one day our country will realize that this is not a matter for the people to vote on, because it is a CIVIL RIGHTS matter, and any law passed denying gays these rights is a violation of our Constitution.
94
Well, I haven't timed it but I"m pretty sure "too long" is nowhere close to an hour. I mean, if you count the foreplay we can go on for awhile but if you're only counting penetration I don't think it gets anywhere close to that. I guess I ought to time it but Im guessing 10-30 minutes. We used a silicone lube and often add more partway through. I've tried waterbased but it doesn't seem to work as well.
Also, no one I've talked to says the first thrust to always hurts when they have sex. I'd like to think its normal but it seems like it isn't... Maybe Im just a wuss but to me its a significant amount of pain.
Also, no one I've talked to says the first thrust to always hurts when they have sex. I'd like to think its normal but it seems like it isn't... Maybe Im just a wuss but to me its a significant amount of pain.
95
"For The Bible Tells Me So" -- put it on your Netflix queue.
All you people who come on here spouting your apparent knowledge of words like "abomination" and other biblically-supported, but thoroughly-twisted-by-humankind "sources" are so blinded by your own arrogance and misinformation that I doubt you'll have the guts to rent this movie and possibly, just possibly, see things a little differently...
But you wouldn't be capable of doing that, now, would you?
All you people who come on here spouting your apparent knowledge of words like "abomination" and other biblically-supported, but thoroughly-twisted-by-humankind "sources" are so blinded by your own arrogance and misinformation that I doubt you'll have the guts to rent this movie and possibly, just possibly, see things a little differently...
But you wouldn't be capable of doing that, now, would you?
96
Re this week's podcast: don't forget that us gay have co-opted the very sky itself. Every time it rains while the sun shines, you have a reminder that you are being gayed.
97
Dear Dan,
now all your utah fans can come here to read your column, since you've been silenced in their state...sold out, thrown under the bus and all that. i hope you sue the bastards.
now all your utah fans can come here to read your column, since you've been silenced in their state...sold out, thrown under the bus and all that. i hope you sue the bastards.
98
1/2 hour is a really long time when you're young...for the first 10 years or so of my sex life it always hurt me at first, even if I enjoyed it later. Now I'm into my 40's it's pure bliss (nice to know that being old an'saggy has an upside, I guess), but it did use to be that for me to have fun with intercourse the stars had to be aligned. I couldn't be on top, and had to be very relaxed, and there was definitely such a thing as too big.
I rather agree with the ppl who say that if you always need lube he might not be treating you right. That's kind of unusual in a young woman with a new husband. Also that the pill might be a factor.
My final answer would be that the best lube is communication. I don't know if my body actually changed or if I got better at asking for what I want, and -- this turned out to be super important -- making sure the man isn't impatient. It turned out for me that most men really are happier if I'm happy, and once they know that'll happen, they're more than willing to wait for it. And the magic part is, once _I_ know that'll happen, they don't have to wait long.
Anyway, keep talking sister. If his heart's in the right place, the two of you will figure it out.
I rather agree with the ppl who say that if you always need lube he might not be treating you right. That's kind of unusual in a young woman with a new husband. Also that the pill might be a factor.
My final answer would be that the best lube is communication. I don't know if my body actually changed or if I got better at asking for what I want, and -- this turned out to be super important -- making sure the man isn't impatient. It turned out for me that most men really are happier if I'm happy, and once they know that'll happen, they're more than willing to wait for it. And the magic part is, once _I_ know that'll happen, they don't have to wait long.
Anyway, keep talking sister. If his heart's in the right place, the two of you will figure it out.
99
Responding to "disgusted:" You were so right on, until you said "You don't deserve the rights you've got." We need to stop getting so angry with those that are opposed to us that we stoop to such low levels.
100
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSS, DANDAN-SAN... GOOD FIGHT ON CNN WITH THAT YOU-KNOW-WHO *LOSER ALERT* LAST NIGHT!
101
I suggest to every Mormon, Catholic, right-wing-separatist-Episcopalian that we in lieu of donations to said church, leave a signed note that we will resume contributions when they stop using our money to deprive us of our rights and denigrate us.
102
Dan!!!!
hope i got your attention, I know you're really busy fighting the good fight, but I wonder if you (or your loyal readers) know where I can find your response to someone who was trying to break up with a significant other suffering from depression. I rememember thinking it was good advice and have a friend that could benefit from reading it, but I don't know where to find it in the archives. Help!
hope i got your attention, I know you're really busy fighting the good fight, but I wonder if you (or your loyal readers) know where I can find your response to someone who was trying to break up with a significant other suffering from depression. I rememember thinking it was good advice and have a friend that could benefit from reading it, but I don't know where to find it in the archives. Help!
103
as my addition to sowing the gayness-overt-panic I would recommend a vast relocation of our homosexual brothers and sisters to the rural areas of the deep south. Here surrounded by the muirian folds of the lower Appalachians there are absolutely 'no' laws saying who can marry whom, or in some cases what. Of course, there might then be certain neighborly misunderstandings. These can also be rectified by those self same laxity in laws. Whoo. Come, bring yer shotguns.
Also, as the old song says...love hurts. My recent bout with medicine and genitalia made me realize, as some have said above, that having a good doctor helps. Be brave enough to talk and have someone you're comfortable with. Frank communication is the bestest.
love,
Sasha
Also, as the old song says...love hurts. My recent bout with medicine and genitalia made me realize, as some have said above, that having a good doctor helps. Be brave enough to talk and have someone you're comfortable with. Frank communication is the bestest.
love,
Sasha
104
Tracey S, I think a lot of the late outrage has to do with the fact that people didn't believe that Prop 8 would pass. There was a somewhat faulty assumption that people in California are all very liberal and very pro-gay rights. Anyone who has ever been to anywhere south of Los Angeles County knows that's simply not true. Maybe this is just the Massachusetts elitist in me talking (similar measures in the Bay State failed to even make the ballot in recent years), but it seems to me that much of California's so-called progressive culture, outside the Bay Area, is a kind of hippy liberalism that is vocal on easy issues that either effect them personally or are based on abstractions on which they can project themselves. Some examples are animal welfare and drug policy, which have seen measures pass in this election and in the recent past. When it comes to the tough, contentious issues that really affect people's lives, however, Californians are no more liberal than any western state. It's unfortunate, but the effort must now be pressed to convince otherwise liberal voters that gays are not icky, and deserve the basic human rights enjoyed by everybody else.
105
It was so great to see you on the Colbert Report, Dan. 'California bans gay marriage. Next up, Iowa bans corn.'
PINTS- get thee to a doctor! and it can also be just a matter of time. When I first lost my virginity, sex didn't feel good for a good year. It took some time for my body to get used to it and now it's all good... but I would check with a Dr. first.
PINTS- get thee to a doctor! and it can also be just a matter of time. When I first lost my virginity, sex didn't feel good for a good year. It took some time for my body to get used to it and now it's all good... but I would check with a Dr. first.
106
I've read both religious websites and GLBT websites regarding the gay marriage issue. Both sides bring up very important legal issues regarding gay marriage which leads me to only one very simple conclusion: take the gov't out of marriage. Period. Gov'ts should only recognize that two consenting adults have set up a household together and require all the legal protections, tax protections, privileges currently given to "marriage." ALL such partnerships (including those between straight couples) should be called civil unions by the state. This would include my parents' own 70s justice-of-the-peace wedding. Only religious institutions should be able to qualify something as a "marriage" and there are plenty of such institutions which will honor gay unions (Unitarian Universalists, for example). I know this solution will likely piss off activists on both sides, but that can't be helped. A little compromise on both sides should be required. If neither side will compromise, then all this turmoil is only going to continue to the detriment of our country.
107
Nate Silver is the Dan Savage of political statistics.
I was all ready to blame the conservative, Obama voting blacks, latinos and asians (e.g. my older relatives) for passing 8.
Thankfully I was wrong. We just need to wait out the clock.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/p…
I was all ready to blame the conservative, Obama voting blacks, latinos and asians (e.g. my older relatives) for passing 8.
Thankfully I was wrong. We just need to wait out the clock.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/p…
108
DAN stop fucking perpetuating racism amoungst blacks and gays by insinuating that we were the reason prop hate didn't pass. check the facts Asshole (I love you but this shit is wrong and dan savage should be ashamed as well as perez hilton) EXIT POLLS are ALWAYS wrong and now that the numbers are there it wasn't 60% as previously thought, it was 49% blacks...and of those it was mostly OLDER black people which is no surprise..most OLD ASS people would vote that way-regardless of race.
One more thing, as a black person we've always been told.."well you dont vote, so how do you expect things to change?...with that said, the numbers also show that 7% of register GAYS DID NOT VOTE and 6% of unregistered gays did not bother to vote....so blame yourselves, because that 13% could have put the vote over the top easily. I'm not a hateful human being, but I've never encountered so much racism from gays (mostly white) in my life until now and that says alot because I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin in a very open community to all culture, creed & sexual preference, we even have some local neo-nazis who are quite polite 7 mannerly, we've all managed to get along here in are bohemian Artist community(Riverwest or the "East" as we call it, it's the equal to Greenwich) so it's not a choice but I HAVE TO communicate with gays on a regular basis, it's not a novelty in my area. I'm HONESTLY afraid for what the ramifications will be as a result of this "blacklash".
Don't divide us or else you are falling into the same trap that divided all minorities during and after the civil rights movement, pitting blacks vs.hispanics vs.asian etc.....it's called conqour and divide...dont be sheep be the shepherd.
If you don't stop the hate in it's tracks...thres going to be a bloody fucking mess!!!!
Much Love,
More...
One more thing, as a black person we've always been told.."well you dont vote, so how do you expect things to change?...with that said, the numbers also show that 7% of register GAYS DID NOT VOTE and 6% of unregistered gays did not bother to vote....so blame yourselves, because that 13% could have put the vote over the top easily. I'm not a hateful human being, but I've never encountered so much racism from gays (mostly white) in my life until now and that says alot because I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin in a very open community to all culture, creed & sexual preference, we even have some local neo-nazis who are quite polite 7 mannerly, we've all managed to get along here in are bohemian Artist community(Riverwest or the "East" as we call it, it's the equal to Greenwich) so it's not a choice but I HAVE TO communicate with gays on a regular basis, it's not a novelty in my area. I'm HONESTLY afraid for what the ramifications will be as a result of this "blacklash".
Don't divide us or else you are falling into the same trap that divided all minorities during and after the civil rights movement, pitting blacks vs.hispanics vs.asian etc.....it's called conqour and divide...dont be sheep be the shepherd.
If you don't stop the hate in it's tracks...thres going to be a bloody fucking mess!!!!
Much Love,
109
also you make yourself look like an idiot when you get too mad...nothing personal but it looks petty just like when blacks whine...we wind up looking ridiculous because while we're "raging" others are cool and calm cause they got to you....be mad at the right shit, stop scapegoating..I havn't heard shit about THE LACK OF GAYS WHO VOTED..PERIOD! Your OWN COMMUNITY has to be responsible for itself at some point, right?...oh I guess not..my bad...
I already knew how most whites feel about me...now I know how gays really feel about me..this board was an eye opener...because YOU ALL were RACIST FROM THE START LIKE MOST Str8 whites...your anger brought out the way YOU FUCKING FELT THE WHOLE TIME...ANGER DOESN'T Make YOU HATEFUL..it means you were that way all along just now you have reason to bring it to the forefront...So should I stop being nice to gays and hanging out and having their children over for playdates, and start whooping gay peoples asses when I see them? Should I start saying things like you all deserve to be raped, beaten, tied to tracks, called the F word all because a few angry gays choose to get out of line with me?
NO OF COURSE NOT CAUSE HATE IS NOT IN MY HEART, AND I WOULDN'T SAY THOSE THINGS PRIOR TO YOUR RACIST RANT, NOR SHALL I AFTER....
Anger Doesn't Change ME! Neither does hate...
YOU ALL ARE SHOWING YOUR TRUE COLORS..WHAT AN UGLY RAINBOW IT IS
I already knew how most whites feel about me...now I know how gays really feel about me..this board was an eye opener...because YOU ALL were RACIST FROM THE START LIKE MOST Str8 whites...your anger brought out the way YOU FUCKING FELT THE WHOLE TIME...ANGER DOESN'T Make YOU HATEFUL..it means you were that way all along just now you have reason to bring it to the forefront...So should I stop being nice to gays and hanging out and having their children over for playdates, and start whooping gay peoples asses when I see them? Should I start saying things like you all deserve to be raped, beaten, tied to tracks, called the F word all because a few angry gays choose to get out of line with me?
NO OF COURSE NOT CAUSE HATE IS NOT IN MY HEART, AND I WOULDN'T SAY THOSE THINGS PRIOR TO YOUR RACIST RANT, NOR SHALL I AFTER....
Anger Doesn't Change ME! Neither does hate...
YOU ALL ARE SHOWING YOUR TRUE COLORS..WHAT AN UGLY RAINBOW IT IS
110
ONE MORE THING...
there are black gays and hispanic gays..so you are alienating THEM even more with your bullshit racist talk. They are already looked down on by the AA community and NOT supported by WHITE GAYS AT ALL...where the fuck can they run too? You have shown no inclusiveness towards blacks other than whining "we share the same pain too"...GTFOH with that BS! You never cared about blacks to begin with, because you all keep over looking the fact that GAYS COME IN ALL COLORS IDIOTS....So you get to be privledged, white and gay..thumbs up for you....way too show everybody how great of a person you are..NOT!
You will need Black gays, you will need ALL gays to get accomplished what you wish...too bad you just shitted on every black persons, gay or straight...the black gays will remember all of this bullshit when the dust settles...they WILL REMEMBER because at the end of the day...THEY ARE STILL BLACK
there are black gays and hispanic gays..so you are alienating THEM even more with your bullshit racist talk. They are already looked down on by the AA community and NOT supported by WHITE GAYS AT ALL...where the fuck can they run too? You have shown no inclusiveness towards blacks other than whining "we share the same pain too"...GTFOH with that BS! You never cared about blacks to begin with, because you all keep over looking the fact that GAYS COME IN ALL COLORS IDIOTS....So you get to be privledged, white and gay..thumbs up for you....way too show everybody how great of a person you are..NOT!
You will need Black gays, you will need ALL gays to get accomplished what you wish...too bad you just shitted on every black persons, gay or straight...the black gays will remember all of this bullshit when the dust settles...they WILL REMEMBER because at the end of the day...THEY ARE STILL BLACK
111
It's a good question. Dan, can you ask Nate Silver or someone similar what percentage of the gay population turned out to vote on 11/4? I suspect it's high. But was it high enough? Part of the solution (to winning next time) is convincing more people that gay marriage is not a threat to their marriage or civilization. But is part of it also GOTV (Get Out The Vote)??
113
Dan,
I saw you on Anderson Cooper 360 last night. Thanks a lot buddy. I haven't felt that good in a week. You really made Tony Perkins look like the homophobic fool he is. You are a wonderful spokesman for gay rights. Keep up the good work.
Respectfully,
A gay father of 2
I saw you on Anderson Cooper 360 last night. Thanks a lot buddy. I haven't felt that good in a week. You really made Tony Perkins look like the homophobic fool he is. You are a wonderful spokesman for gay rights. Keep up the good work.
Respectfully,
A gay father of 2
114
I'm a straight male in CA who donated more NO ON 8 than I have to any proposition fight ever. Thank you to Dan for getting me off my ass to do so.
I'm disappointed by the results and by fellow Christians who think that they must vote based on their religious belief and fail to see this as a civil rights issue for people who have a right believe differently than they do. The separation of Church and State is in the Constitution for a reason and it protects ALL of us.
As someone who has been active in progressive politics for several years, I observed (sadly) that the Yes on 8 people had a very energetic "ground game" which eclipsed that of No On 8. In addition to traditional advertising, Yes on 8 peppered the neigborhoods with yard signs and cars with bumper stickers. I ever saw a friggin' SKY WRITER propaganda-bombing us with "Vote Yes on 8 - Save Traditional Marriage" the day before the election. And on election day I saw Poll Watchers (folks who visit the polling place to check to see who hasn't voted yet, then take that info back to call them) for No on 8 - well organized candidates do that but rarely initiative backers.
So Yes on 8 put a lot of energy into their campaign. If the issue is on the ballot again in any form, expect them to try likewise.
But from a campaign perspective one possible factor they had in their favor this particular election day was the lopsided numbers for Obama over McCain in California. My theory is that California conservatives knew McCain was a lost cause and turned their attention to Prop 8. Virtually all the Obama supporters I knew (including myself), however, were raving paranoia about how we were not going to take a thing for granted after watching what happened in 2000 and 2004. (Whether those elections were actually stolen or not, most Dems think they were and it was a very powerful motivator). So Obama supporters were traveling to other states, making calls to other states, or working for other Democratic candidates to take advantage of opportunities to make other gains. We cared very much about defeating Prop 8 but many of us had our attention elsewhere.
The good news are the statistics showing that attitudes are shifting. In the long run civil rights should win once again. It's just a very painful situation in the short term.
As angry as gay marriage supporters may be, I'd counsel some restraint in stating our position. Yelling at the opposition may help blow off steam but it rarely changes minds. Speak rationally, because rationality is on our side. Most minds, the ones that will eventually prevail, will listen and understand.
More...
I'm disappointed by the results and by fellow Christians who think that they must vote based on their religious belief and fail to see this as a civil rights issue for people who have a right believe differently than they do. The separation of Church and State is in the Constitution for a reason and it protects ALL of us.
As someone who has been active in progressive politics for several years, I observed (sadly) that the Yes on 8 people had a very energetic "ground game" which eclipsed that of No On 8. In addition to traditional advertising, Yes on 8 peppered the neigborhoods with yard signs and cars with bumper stickers. I ever saw a friggin' SKY WRITER propaganda-bombing us with "Vote Yes on 8 - Save Traditional Marriage" the day before the election. And on election day I saw Poll Watchers (folks who visit the polling place to check to see who hasn't voted yet, then take that info back to call them) for No on 8 - well organized candidates do that but rarely initiative backers.
So Yes on 8 put a lot of energy into their campaign. If the issue is on the ballot again in any form, expect them to try likewise.
But from a campaign perspective one possible factor they had in their favor this particular election day was the lopsided numbers for Obama over McCain in California. My theory is that California conservatives knew McCain was a lost cause and turned their attention to Prop 8. Virtually all the Obama supporters I knew (including myself), however, were raving paranoia about how we were not going to take a thing for granted after watching what happened in 2000 and 2004. (Whether those elections were actually stolen or not, most Dems think they were and it was a very powerful motivator). So Obama supporters were traveling to other states, making calls to other states, or working for other Democratic candidates to take advantage of opportunities to make other gains. We cared very much about defeating Prop 8 but many of us had our attention elsewhere.
The good news are the statistics showing that attitudes are shifting. In the long run civil rights should win once again. It's just a very painful situation in the short term.
As angry as gay marriage supporters may be, I'd counsel some restraint in stating our position. Yelling at the opposition may help blow off steam but it rarely changes minds. Speak rationally, because rationality is on our side. Most minds, the ones that will eventually prevail, will listen and understand.
116
RE: "Because it's illegal for gays to get married now in Florida—right, Charlie?"
No, it is illegal for anyone, not just gays, to marry someone of the same sex.
There is a big difference between making it illegal for gays to marry (that would be discriminatory)and to state that marriage, for everyone, may only happen between a man or a women. I, as a straight female, have just as much of an opportunity to marry a women as someone who identifies as a lesbian.
Everyone has the same right to get married - to someone of the opposite sex. Whether or not that interests you, well that's a different story.
No, it is illegal for anyone, not just gays, to marry someone of the same sex.
There is a big difference between making it illegal for gays to marry (that would be discriminatory)and to state that marriage, for everyone, may only happen between a man or a women. I, as a straight female, have just as much of an opportunity to marry a women as someone who identifies as a lesbian.
Everyone has the same right to get married - to someone of the opposite sex. Whether or not that interests you, well that's a different story.
117
Another reader/listener/viewer who was delighted to see you on the Colbert report last night, man. You had the right answers and it was a great showing.
I'm honestly surprised by by the passionate, ongoing demonstrations that continue in the community, not just in Cali but everywhere else. I honestly thought that while pissed, nothing more would come of it, a day or two after the fact. My fellow gays and lesbians have proved my usual cynicism and jaded (lazy) nature wrong.
It's my sincere belief that we too will have our day, soon.
I'm honestly surprised by by the passionate, ongoing demonstrations that continue in the community, not just in Cali but everywhere else. I honestly thought that while pissed, nothing more would come of it, a day or two after the fact. My fellow gays and lesbians have proved my usual cynicism and jaded (lazy) nature wrong.
It's my sincere belief that we too will have our day, soon.
118
Fucking fuck the fucking Mormons.
They MUST have their non-profit status revoked, nationwide. Now.
Is someone starting a movement to do so? Please?
OK, I will if I have to.
They MUST have their non-profit status revoked, nationwide. Now.
Is someone starting a movement to do so? Please?
OK, I will if I have to.
120
PINT--I have had similar issues. I went to a physical therapist who specializes in female issues and she helped me to realize that I was unconsciously clenching all my pelvic floor/vaginal muscles 24/7. I had major burning and sex was impossible. Through exercises with her and at home I was able to loosen up and relax those muscles. Now it's much better. You might want to look into this. It's different than going to the gynecologist or another doctor and she was able to help me more than any other doctors were. Good luck. Dan is right though....try to still have sexual fun that feels good so you both don't get upset about it--then you just clench more if that is a problem you have. :)
121
Dan, just watched you debate the conservative bigot on CNN.
One pointer:
It is too bad prop 8 and other similar ballot measures in other states
passed. I think more likely than not if the no-on-prop-8 movement
framed it differently they could have defeated it.
I see two arguments used by Dan, the Old Fashioned Bigotry one and the
American Liberty one. These frames are overlap in my mind in only one
other case, which is African American marriage. But simply having the
two frames present in an argument does not make up for a lack of a strong
emotional argument.
What is obvious to me is that Dan, like other's opposing proposition 8
let the proponents frame it first and only responded in retaliatory
arguments. I have previously noted the "We are not the enemy" campaign
could be slightly counterproductive by pairing the image of gays with the word "enemy," and suggested something along the lines of "We are people too," or "Don't invalidate our love."
One thing that really needs to be pushed I think is, by making same-
gender marriage illegal, we are effectively saying that gay people
are not as good as straight people, and this will leave gay children confused. Hitching the gay marriage argument
to education of children is something the religious right-wing has pre-
empted with the conspiracy theory of "indoctrination," and the gay rights community have shied away from for fear of allowing the right-wing to make their argument. If they had a counter argument that successfully framed it their way, they would not need to fear talking about marriage in relation to children.
A strong counter argument would be that the reverse of social conservative's positoin is actually true.
The social conservatives stresses the need to instill disgust for gays
in their children (by focusing on sodomy), who otherwise might not think twice about it. We need to be teaching kids acceptance, not bigotry.
I believe that this would be a very smart argument to make, because
then the church would have to argue that it is okay for them to tell
their kids that being gay is wrong. It changes the argument in a very
significant way. It pushes the argument away from the Disney-esque
mythological deification of marriage to respect for diversity. If the
gay rights movement had made this point I believe they could have
defeated prop 8.
Arguing that taking away one minorities rights is much like taking away another is a good argument, but
could be made more powerful if you pointed out that social
conservatives are not only taking away rights but also sending the
wrong message about tolerance. And if you still want to draw the parallel to racial marriages, point out that past (and many present) social conservatives indoctrinated their children to believe very bad things about black people.
And if you still feel the need to criticize the Mormon church, do so by mentioning other old fashioned bigoted beliefs as to reinforce the bigotry or intolerance frame.
More...
One pointer:
It is too bad prop 8 and other similar ballot measures in other states
passed. I think more likely than not if the no-on-prop-8 movement
framed it differently they could have defeated it.
I see two arguments used by Dan, the Old Fashioned Bigotry one and the
American Liberty one. These frames are overlap in my mind in only one
other case, which is African American marriage. But simply having the
two frames present in an argument does not make up for a lack of a strong
emotional argument.
What is obvious to me is that Dan, like other's opposing proposition 8
let the proponents frame it first and only responded in retaliatory
arguments. I have previously noted the "We are not the enemy" campaign
could be slightly counterproductive by pairing the image of gays with the word "enemy," and suggested something along the lines of "We are people too," or "Don't invalidate our love."
One thing that really needs to be pushed I think is, by making same-
gender marriage illegal, we are effectively saying that gay people
are not as good as straight people, and this will leave gay children confused. Hitching the gay marriage argument
to education of children is something the religious right-wing has pre-
empted with the conspiracy theory of "indoctrination," and the gay rights community have shied away from for fear of allowing the right-wing to make their argument. If they had a counter argument that successfully framed it their way, they would not need to fear talking about marriage in relation to children.
A strong counter argument would be that the reverse of social conservative's positoin is actually true.
The social conservatives stresses the need to instill disgust for gays
in their children (by focusing on sodomy), who otherwise might not think twice about it. We need to be teaching kids acceptance, not bigotry.
I believe that this would be a very smart argument to make, because
then the church would have to argue that it is okay for them to tell
their kids that being gay is wrong. It changes the argument in a very
significant way. It pushes the argument away from the Disney-esque
mythological deification of marriage to respect for diversity. If the
gay rights movement had made this point I believe they could have
defeated prop 8.
Arguing that taking away one minorities rights is much like taking away another is a good argument, but
could be made more powerful if you pointed out that social
conservatives are not only taking away rights but also sending the
wrong message about tolerance. And if you still want to draw the parallel to racial marriages, point out that past (and many present) social conservatives indoctrinated their children to believe very bad things about black people.
And if you still feel the need to criticize the Mormon church, do so by mentioning other old fashioned bigoted beliefs as to reinforce the bigotry or intolerance frame.
122
Dear PINTS, You may have what is called an "antoverted" or "retroverted" uterus, causing your cervix to be at a weird angle and thus the pain with intercourse. Get checked with your doc. Please ignore that Kiki is a fucking asshole.
124
Hey Dan. Just wanted to say how great you were in the interview on CNN with Anderson Cooper. Tony Perkins could not be slimier... you argued point by point everything he had to say and I just kept cheering, "Go! Go! Go Dan Savage!" You rock.
125
The Law of Nature creates a male and a female in order to reproduce and ensure the continuation of the species. So my question is, is homosexuality a choice or a mistake in the developemental stage of the fetus. If it is a choice, than with any choice in life, you have both supporters and critics. You can choose to have rainbow colored hair but you can't expect a law to be enacted to protect you when you can't get a professional type job becasue you choose an alternative style. If it is a choice, this same principle applies to homosexuality. You can choose that lifestyle but don't expect laws to change just because you CHOOSE an alternative lifestyle. That's your choice and you have live with the consequences.
African-American's were discriminated against because they were BORN with a different skin color than whites. Being born a different color is totally out of people control. The difference between the fight for Gay Marriage and the fight for equal treatment for African American's is: CHOICE
If your argument is that people are born Gay, than that is a totally different argument. As I said before, people are born different sexes in order reproduce and ensure survival of the species. I would argue that in homosexuals, in the developemental stage of the fetus, an error occured resulting in a malfunction of the brain, otherwise the offspring would grow up with the natural attraction to the opposite sex in order to reproduce. Therefore, the fight for Gay marriage would being that homosexuality is a developmental disorder and could be covered under existing laws that cover the disability acts. Stemcell, once passed, could then be used to help find a cure for this developmental disorder.
African-American's were discriminated against because they were BORN with a different skin color than whites. Being born a different color is totally out of people control. The difference between the fight for Gay Marriage and the fight for equal treatment for African American's is: CHOICE
If your argument is that people are born Gay, than that is a totally different argument. As I said before, people are born different sexes in order reproduce and ensure survival of the species. I would argue that in homosexuals, in the developemental stage of the fetus, an error occured resulting in a malfunction of the brain, otherwise the offspring would grow up with the natural attraction to the opposite sex in order to reproduce. Therefore, the fight for Gay marriage would being that homosexuality is a developmental disorder and could be covered under existing laws that cover the disability acts. Stemcell, once passed, could then be used to help find a cure for this developmental disorder.
126
The Law of Nature creates a male and a female in order to reproduce and ensure the continuation of the species. So my question is, is homosexuality a choice or a mistake in the developemental stage of the fetus. If it is a choice, than with any choice in life, you have both supporters and critics. You can choose to have rainbow colored hair but you can't expect a law to be enacted to protect you when you can't get a professional type job becasue you choose an alternative style. If it is a choice, this same principle applies to homosexuality. You can choose that lifestyle but don't expect laws to change just because you CHOOSE an alternative lifestyle. That's your choice and you have live with the consequences.
African-American's were discriminated against because they were BORN with a different skin color than whites. Being born a different color is totally out of people control. The difference between the fight for Gay Marriage and the fight for equal treatment for African American's is: CHOICE
If your argument is that people are born Gay, than that is a totally different argument. As I said before, people are born different sexes in order reproduce and ensure survival of the species. I would argue that in homosexuals, in the developemental stage of the fetus, an error occured resulting in a malfunction of the brain, otherwise the offspring would grow up with the natural attraction to the opposite sex in order to reproduce. Therefore, the fight for Gay marriage would being that homosexuality is a developmental disorder and could be covered under existing laws that cover the disability acts. Stemcell, once passed, could then be used to help find a cure for this developmental disorder.
African-American's were discriminated against because they were BORN with a different skin color than whites. Being born a different color is totally out of people control. The difference between the fight for Gay Marriage and the fight for equal treatment for African American's is: CHOICE
If your argument is that people are born Gay, than that is a totally different argument. As I said before, people are born different sexes in order reproduce and ensure survival of the species. I would argue that in homosexuals, in the developemental stage of the fetus, an error occured resulting in a malfunction of the brain, otherwise the offspring would grow up with the natural attraction to the opposite sex in order to reproduce. Therefore, the fight for Gay marriage would being that homosexuality is a developmental disorder and could be covered under existing laws that cover the disability acts. Stemcell, once passed, could then be used to help find a cure for this developmental disorder.
127
PINTS, take it from a lesbian who didn't find the right sex partner until age 30...It may not be a medical problem at all. For me, penetration always hurt until I found my current partner, who very patiently used her fingers to er... break me in. And please make sure he knows all about your clit, so he can get you good and open first. Perhaps his penis size is something you need to WORK UP TO. Make sure you do plenty of finger play before even letting that hot dog into you.
128
The Law of Nature creates a male and a female in order to reproduce and ensure the continuation of the species. So my question is, is homosexuality a choice or a mistake in the developemental stage of the fetus. If it is a choice, than with any choice in life, you have both supporters and critics. You can choose to have rainbow colored hair but you can't expect a law to be enacted to protect you when you can't get a professional type job becasue you choose an alternative style. If it is a choice, this same principle applies to homosexuality. You can choose that lifestyle but don't expect laws to change just because you CHOOSE an alternative lifestyle. That's your choice and you have live with the consequences.
African-American's were discriminated against because they were BORN with a different skin color than whites. Being born a different color is totally out of people control. The difference between the fight for Gay Marriage and the fight for equal treatment for African American's is: CHOICE
If your argument is that people are born Gay, than that is a totally different argument. As I said before, people are born different sexes in order reproduce and ensure survival of the species. I would argue that in homosexuals, in the developemental stage of the fetus, an error occured resulting in a malfunction of the brain, otherwise the offspring would grow up with the natural attraction to the opposite sex in order to reproduce. Therefore, the fight for Gay marriage would being that homosexuality is a developmental disorder and could be covered under existing laws that cover the disability acts. Stemcell, once passed, could then be used to help find a cure for this developmental disorder.
African-American's were discriminated against because they were BORN with a different skin color than whites. Being born a different color is totally out of people control. The difference between the fight for Gay Marriage and the fight for equal treatment for African American's is: CHOICE
If your argument is that people are born Gay, than that is a totally different argument. As I said before, people are born different sexes in order reproduce and ensure survival of the species. I would argue that in homosexuals, in the developemental stage of the fetus, an error occured resulting in a malfunction of the brain, otherwise the offspring would grow up with the natural attraction to the opposite sex in order to reproduce. Therefore, the fight for Gay marriage would being that homosexuality is a developmental disorder and could be covered under existing laws that cover the disability acts. Stemcell, once passed, could then be used to help find a cure for this developmental disorder.
129
Dan! You only donated $100 to No on 8?? After urging your readers to donate and setting up a contest to reward those who donated the most?? Money where your mouth is, please!!
All the donors to both the Yes on 8 and No on 8 campaigns are tabulated in a searchable database on the latimes website. Dan is the only "Daniel Savage" in Washington.
All the donors to both the Yes on 8 and No on 8 campaigns are tabulated in a searchable database on the latimes website. Dan is the only "Daniel Savage" in Washington.
130
Dear Dan,
I just saw the clip of you on AC360 vs Tony Perkins. You were great. The big thing that put you ahead of almost any other progressive voice was your fearlessness in your cause. Most kind-hearted people are afraid to reply as readily as their attacker does, out of some mis-placed fear that they are required to be humbler and to tolerate unfair abuse. Fortunately, you seem quite clear on the concept that it is not tolerant to tolerate intolerance. So you didn't just sit there when Perkins lied and interrupted you. Instead, you put forward the truth whenever you could. It was so refreshing to see fairness have an equal chance vs intolerance for once. Please try to make similar appearances in the future. You really energize good people, not just on human rights issues, but on all good causes. Thanks for your leadership for a civilized society.
Sincerely,
Bruce in Arizona
I just saw the clip of you on AC360 vs Tony Perkins. You were great. The big thing that put you ahead of almost any other progressive voice was your fearlessness in your cause. Most kind-hearted people are afraid to reply as readily as their attacker does, out of some mis-placed fear that they are required to be humbler and to tolerate unfair abuse. Fortunately, you seem quite clear on the concept that it is not tolerant to tolerate intolerance. So you didn't just sit there when Perkins lied and interrupted you. Instead, you put forward the truth whenever you could. It was so refreshing to see fairness have an equal chance vs intolerance for once. Please try to make similar appearances in the future. You really energize good people, not just on human rights issues, but on all good causes. Thanks for your leadership for a civilized society.
Sincerely,
Bruce in Arizona
132
I don't think it's fair for homosexuals to co-opt the context of the civil rights movement by comparing struggles. The very root of the insidiousness racial prejudice wrought was the condemnation of a person on pure exterior features, an indictment before birth- remarked Malcolm X. Though i can sympathize with homosexuals, it's hard to swallow that the community has it so terrible right now. I don't buy that Proposition 8 represents the backwardness of America geez give it a break.
But seriously, when Ellen DeGeneres is on her soapbox on her nationally syndicated talkshow, I don't really buy it when she tells me what a raw deal she has because she's gay.
It is no great injustice when people voice their valid personal values through a democratic system. you want change? Constructive dialogue with the American people might work instead of radical protests and insistent imposition of your lifestyle over mine. Protests are fine too. but this radical reaction to a democratic process over an issue that doesn't really bear similarities to the true injustices of the past is utterly disingenuous at best.
But yea- you're probably a lot smarter than me. More urbane and witty I'm sure. Your views on sexuality, historicity, and traditional marriage are more sophisticated and rooted in numbing academic scholarship- I'm quite sure. I surmise you're one of those who also view orthodox biblical Christianity as a patriarchal system of subjugation instead of an enlightened faith that's uplifted billions. (It has by the way buddy, sorry to break the news)
I'm sure you presume to have reached new peaks of enlightenment and wisdom above all those who disagree with your views on homosexual identity- reducing anyone who's reality does not comport to yours to depths of bigotry.
I don't know, I could be just stereotyping.
Yet.. what do we have in the end. 52-48. The people are wise. They speak their choice too.
More...
But seriously, when Ellen DeGeneres is on her soapbox on her nationally syndicated talkshow, I don't really buy it when she tells me what a raw deal she has because she's gay.
It is no great injustice when people voice their valid personal values through a democratic system. you want change? Constructive dialogue with the American people might work instead of radical protests and insistent imposition of your lifestyle over mine. Protests are fine too. but this radical reaction to a democratic process over an issue that doesn't really bear similarities to the true injustices of the past is utterly disingenuous at best.
But yea- you're probably a lot smarter than me. More urbane and witty I'm sure. Your views on sexuality, historicity, and traditional marriage are more sophisticated and rooted in numbing academic scholarship- I'm quite sure. I surmise you're one of those who also view orthodox biblical Christianity as a patriarchal system of subjugation instead of an enlightened faith that's uplifted billions. (It has by the way buddy, sorry to break the news)
I'm sure you presume to have reached new peaks of enlightenment and wisdom above all those who disagree with your views on homosexual identity- reducing anyone who's reality does not comport to yours to depths of bigotry.
I don't know, I could be just stereotyping.
Yet.. what do we have in the end. 52-48. The people are wise. They speak their choice too.
133
Gays need to get serious once and for all and boycott all anti-gay bigots.Stop always shopping and remodeling and buying CDs and clothes and appliances.Each and every time you do this you are keeping gay-haters in business and employed.Stop giving money to those who hate you!It's quick and easy!
134
Dear PINT
My wife had the same problem (she wasn't a virgin but hadn't had sex for a long time). Gradually it got better. If we go for long periods of time without intercourse (3 weeks) it can be sore for her again. She has no medical problems, she's just tight. So just keep at it
My wife had the same problem (she wasn't a virgin but hadn't had sex for a long time). Gradually it got better. If we go for long periods of time without intercourse (3 weeks) it can be sore for her again. She has no medical problems, she's just tight. So just keep at it
135
I'm a young black woman who has always been supportive of/worked with the gay community. If I lived in California I would've voted against prop 8 in a heartbeat. I would've joined in the rallies in a heartbeat. But I'm so appalled by the blind rage and the totally random, ugly vitriol against every African American who apparently walked the earth (an anti-prop 8 poster on the LA Times website actually suggested that blacks be run over.Seriously?), that I have to say that the spirit of cooperation with gay folks personally ends for me--and probably for a lot of other young people of color who would never have supported prop 8 to begin with. That's the irony--people of faith who did vote for it aren't apologetic about it. Their feelings aren't hurt because gay folks are mad at them. But younger, more liberal people of color like me who would support gay marriage, but are being treated badly nonetheless, are really getting incensed by the atmosphere of the blogs and the rallies. Seriously.
I have to wonder when the gay community, which contains people of all races, suddenly became this monolothic white community. Because I certainly don't see gays of color included in this conversation.
I also have to wonder at how easy it was to isolate that 70 percent figure, when the poll also suggests several other groups voted upwards of 60 percent for prop 8, including older Americans and Christians. The support for prop 8 wasn't driven by race. It was driven by religion. My theory? Deep down, people are so tired of feeling guilty about the racism that blacks in this country faced that they're secretly thrilled to see this group called on homophobia, even if that calling out ignores the homophobia of every other group.
I have to wonder when the gay community, which contains people of all races, suddenly became this monolothic white community. Because I certainly don't see gays of color included in this conversation.
I also have to wonder at how easy it was to isolate that 70 percent figure, when the poll also suggests several other groups voted upwards of 60 percent for prop 8, including older Americans and Christians. The support for prop 8 wasn't driven by race. It was driven by religion. My theory? Deep down, people are so tired of feeling guilty about the racism that blacks in this country faced that they're secretly thrilled to see this group called on homophobia, even if that calling out ignores the homophobia of every other group.
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PINTS -- Definitely follow Dan's advice and see a doctor. Also, if sex hurts despite using lube and going nice and slow, your husband's penis may be bumping your cervix. That's happened to me before with some longer guys, and it's excruciating. Maybe you or he could wrap a hand around the base of his penis so he doesn't go so far inside you. Also, he could try thrusting less deeply.
137
I know it's hard, but I don't think gay people should be too upset about Prop 8. A lot of old conservative people voted, and they're going to die off. I really do believe the time will come.
Secondly about the girl having uncomfortable sex--soooo many women go through this, and oral sex doesn't help. Check out this month's issue of Glamour (Nicole Kidman cover)--there is a huge feature on it. And yes, go to the doctor right away!!!
Secondly about the girl having uncomfortable sex--soooo many women go through this, and oral sex doesn't help. Check out this month's issue of Glamour (Nicole Kidman cover)--there is a huge feature on it. And yes, go to the doctor right away!!!
138
Hi Dan. I watched your debate with Tony Perkins on Anderson Cooper. It was fantastic. I am a senior at Arizona State University, majoring in Graphic Design, and I have a senior show coming up in May. We are required to pick a social issue to focus on, and I have chosen gay marriage. I would love any input or knowledge that you are willing to give me as I begin this journey! This show will be open for 2 weeks in Phoenix, Arizona, with many faculty, alumni, parents, and other visitors. I want to make a statement.
Thanks Dan. Hope to hear from you soon.
Thanks Dan. Hope to hear from you soon.
139
>>I don't think it's fair for homosexuals to co-opt the context of the civil rights movement by comparing struggles. The very root of the insidiousness racial prejudice wrought was the condemnation of a person on pure exterior features, an indictment before birth- remarked Malcolm X. Though i can sympathize with homosexuals, it's hard to swallow that the community has it so terrible right now. I don't buy that Proposition 8 represents the backwardness of America geez give it a break.
Oh God; a person who is sympathetic to our cause, but is mad that the gayz are upset. We should just sit down and wait, wait for the day when we are finally understood by backwards thinking. Actually, I have a problem with people somehow dismissing the gay rights movement and feeling the need to to co-opt the black civil rights movement as if the gay rights movement doesn't have reason on its own. You somehow dismiss the claim that a person's sexual orientation is a choice, which shows how you really feel in some attempt to make racism worse than homophobia.
But as a person, you're probably under the delusion that thre are those who are both black and gay and actually do have reason to compare the experiences since they live them.
Uh-Oh! Hope I didn't blow your world there- because I understand the concern of blacks of white gay people co-opting a movement they don't give a damn about, but they too have to understand that the gay rights movement is a concern of theirs as well...
Since there are black Gay people who face both homophobia and racism.
One does not trump the other and they are different forms of oppression, sometimes that work hand in hand Mr. OMGZ, you enlightened people are so elitist and are the true haters. You throw around Ellen Degenres as if she represents all gay people, showing that to you all gay people are rich white folks who just complain about issues that aren't even an issue when gay marriage would most likely benefit poor gays and lesbians more than anything else; especially LGB POC who are more likely to have kids.
Seriously? Bias much? Religion is a double edged sword. It has enlightened us and pushed us into much darkness as well. Are you enough of an adult to admit that?
People voicing their values over MY life is a big issue. Let's legislate laws that outlaw churches and tell people, 'Hey, you know.. we're not really taking away your religion, we're just saying we don't want you out there doing that stuff in public because the majority of us feel that you're backwards. No offense, SORREE, Dont take it personal, lets be friendz! Cookie?" Obviously, you're someone who doesn't have that experience, so do not tell us how to feel.
America is not a simple democracy, where the majority rules asshat. if thats the case, we don't even want to think where blacks, indians, mexicans, women, and the fags would *really* be...
More...
Oh God; a person who is sympathetic to our cause, but is mad that the gayz are upset. We should just sit down and wait, wait for the day when we are finally understood by backwards thinking. Actually, I have a problem with people somehow dismissing the gay rights movement and feeling the need to to co-opt the black civil rights movement as if the gay rights movement doesn't have reason on its own. You somehow dismiss the claim that a person's sexual orientation is a choice, which shows how you really feel in some attempt to make racism worse than homophobia.
But as a person, you're probably under the delusion that thre are those who are both black and gay and actually do have reason to compare the experiences since they live them.
Uh-Oh! Hope I didn't blow your world there- because I understand the concern of blacks of white gay people co-opting a movement they don't give a damn about, but they too have to understand that the gay rights movement is a concern of theirs as well...
Since there are black Gay people who face both homophobia and racism.
One does not trump the other and they are different forms of oppression, sometimes that work hand in hand Mr. OMGZ, you enlightened people are so elitist and are the true haters. You throw around Ellen Degenres as if she represents all gay people, showing that to you all gay people are rich white folks who just complain about issues that aren't even an issue when gay marriage would most likely benefit poor gays and lesbians more than anything else; especially LGB POC who are more likely to have kids.
Seriously? Bias much? Religion is a double edged sword. It has enlightened us and pushed us into much darkness as well. Are you enough of an adult to admit that?
People voicing their values over MY life is a big issue. Let's legislate laws that outlaw churches and tell people, 'Hey, you know.. we're not really taking away your religion, we're just saying we don't want you out there doing that stuff in public because the majority of us feel that you're backwards. No offense, SORREE, Dont take it personal, lets be friendz! Cookie?" Obviously, you're someone who doesn't have that experience, so do not tell us how to feel.
America is not a simple democracy, where the majority rules asshat. if thats the case, we don't even want to think where blacks, indians, mexicans, women, and the fags would *really* be...
140
Dear PINTS,
You might want to look into Vulvodynia and Vulvar Vestibulitis, which cause extreme pain during intercourse and, well, just living with a vag. I know. I suffer from it as well. Good luck!
You might want to look into Vulvodynia and Vulvar Vestibulitis, which cause extreme pain during intercourse and, well, just living with a vag. I know. I suffer from it as well. Good luck!
141
I started crying when I read this column; in fact, I have cried every time this story has comes up since election day week. Then again, I cried four years ago when my own state (Ohio) past Amendment 1
My parents are a white catholic couple, they have been married for 35 years as of today. They just moved to Arizona two years ago, so they have had to vote on this Civil rights issues twice.
When I talked to my extremely conservative/traditional 58 year old father on the phone today, just like I did in our living room four years ago, he said the same thing:
-It doesn't matter what I think, God didn't give me the right to judge anybody. The way they live their lives is between them and Christ. So I voted 'no.'-
I love my parents.
My parents are a white catholic couple, they have been married for 35 years as of today. They just moved to Arizona two years ago, so they have had to vote on this Civil rights issues twice.
When I talked to my extremely conservative/traditional 58 year old father on the phone today, just like I did in our living room four years ago, he said the same thing:
-It doesn't matter what I think, God didn't give me the right to judge anybody. The way they live their lives is between them and Christ. So I voted 'no.'-
I love my parents.
142
I find it curious that always politically correct Dan can’t tell it like it is. The success of Prop 8 in California comes down to the very high (70%) vote in its favor by the black community. In other words the group of people who disrespect the institution of marriage the most, as evidenced by the highest rate of out of wed lock births, have absolutely no problem denying that “sanctity” to what they perceive as a white issue. I think that this act by the black community is nothing more than anti-white racism. These bigots need to be exposed for the frauds they are. What group is the first to play the race card – blacks. Who are the first to cry racism – blacks.
143
I am not the activist type, BUT I am offended by how casual you eluded to the n-word describing the "voters of obama and yes on prop 8" in the "FAG" portion of this column. Humph, black folk right? Uh-huh. Now, I've read you for years and I love your humor and crazy remarks. Usually, I piggyback those sentiments. But damn. This one hit home for me. I hate the n-word and any reference to it. You cleverly beat around the bush in your response...but we're no fools. Like we said in junior high school during an argument..."don't start none and it won't be none." Play nice Dan.
144
I think the prop 8 outcome was rigged.
Churches are very powerful and had it passed would loss their non-profit status. (at least that was my understanding)
I voted fuck the churches.
Churches are very powerful and had it passed would loss their non-profit status. (at least that was my understanding)
I voted fuck the churches.
147
Not picking a fight, just curious from Utah...
You do know that the paper that killed your article isn't owned by the church, right? Or that not all of us stuck in this barren salty desert are Mormon or conservative? Or that we have our own protests happening in town against the main church and its offices that got national coverage? Or that there's a movement to boycott all the local businesses who funded Prop 8? Or that there was nothing we could all do to make our votes count in a state we don't live in?
Because, I would like to think you were smart enough to research and find out facts before you proclaimed to boycott an entire state. A state that you can't exactly remove from the union because we're stuck here! You wanna be pissed at Mormons, fine, be pissed at Mormons. But there are those of us who are free thinking, who are liberal, both gay and straight, who want to turn this god-forsaken wasteland into a more balanced area both politically and in thought.
And when people like you make proclamations like that for millions to read and for the local religious sheep to take offense to, it makes our goals ten times harder. I'm not saying you set us back a decade, but we didn't need it, and those of us who were against Prop 8 here sure as hell don't respect you for it.
And you wonder why your article got dumped...
You do know that the paper that killed your article isn't owned by the church, right? Or that not all of us stuck in this barren salty desert are Mormon or conservative? Or that we have our own protests happening in town against the main church and its offices that got national coverage? Or that there's a movement to boycott all the local businesses who funded Prop 8? Or that there was nothing we could all do to make our votes count in a state we don't live in?
Because, I would like to think you were smart enough to research and find out facts before you proclaimed to boycott an entire state. A state that you can't exactly remove from the union because we're stuck here! You wanna be pissed at Mormons, fine, be pissed at Mormons. But there are those of us who are free thinking, who are liberal, both gay and straight, who want to turn this god-forsaken wasteland into a more balanced area both politically and in thought.
And when people like you make proclamations like that for millions to read and for the local religious sheep to take offense to, it makes our goals ten times harder. I'm not saying you set us back a decade, but we didn't need it, and those of us who were against Prop 8 here sure as hell don't respect you for it.
And you wonder why your article got dumped...
148
I too am disappointed that Prop 8 passed here in CA but as larger numbers of people came out to vote for Obama, you inevitably get even more people who want to vote for the first black president but their churches tell them to vote against gay marriage. So while I am happy that Obama won, Im saddened that there are still so many of his supporters who dont understand the damage that the passage of Prop 8 inflicts.
149
I'm in the same boat as PINTS and others who commented. My two cents:
-Pain during sex is VERY RARELY normal. It's normal to have pain during your first few times and if he's rough or going at it awhile, but other than that, it shouldn't hurt. I heard this bullshit several times before I found a doctor who knew what they were talking about
-I fully agree that vaginal pain disorders blow the whole abstinence thing to hell. I'm glad I didn't wait until my wedding night- hell, I only had sex once on my honeymoon for about 1 minute before my husband stopped because he couldn't stand to look at my pain-contorted face.
-Been There Done That: give Dan a break. Most gynecologists don't even know about vaginal pain disorders- he did a better job than some docs I've heard about. That being said, I fully agree with your advice.
-Pain during sex is VERY RARELY normal. It's normal to have pain during your first few times and if he's rough or going at it awhile, but other than that, it shouldn't hurt. I heard this bullshit several times before I found a doctor who knew what they were talking about
-I fully agree that vaginal pain disorders blow the whole abstinence thing to hell. I'm glad I didn't wait until my wedding night- hell, I only had sex once on my honeymoon for about 1 minute before my husband stopped because he couldn't stand to look at my pain-contorted face.
-Been There Done That: give Dan a break. Most gynecologists don't even know about vaginal pain disorders- he did a better job than some docs I've heard about. That being said, I fully agree with your advice.
150
I'm sick about prop 8 and all its anti-gay nonsense. It's 2008, people. Get with the times already.
And PINTS, if you're a small person, don't believe them when they say it only hurts once. For some of us, it hurts for the first year. But then it's awesome.
But be careful about anal as it will turn your boy gay. And apparently we still don't live in gay friendly times.
And PINTS, if you're a small person, don't believe them when they say it only hurts once. For some of us, it hurts for the first year. But then it's awesome.
But be careful about anal as it will turn your boy gay. And apparently we still don't live in gay friendly times.
151
I am pleased I found your site. My mother was involved in both the Civil Rights movement and a member of NOW, (chapter founder).
I am fortunate to have a gay son, and approach the issue of gay marriage, (rights) as secular. I'm amazed that in America it was non-religious Deists who fought for the right of religious freedom, yet religions feel a need for power over others. My best to you, and thank you for what you do.
I am fortunate to have a gay son, and approach the issue of gay marriage, (rights) as secular. I'm amazed that in America it was non-religious Deists who fought for the right of religious freedom, yet religions feel a need for power over others. My best to you, and thank you for what you do.
152
Please keep making it hot for all those wimped out faker preachers and false prophets. We talked about it in the 80's, (remember Berlin Dan?) and all those frustrated half-straight men are trying it again. Thanks for standing up to them on Larry King and keep on spouting the truth.
rik maverik (Sacramento, Berlin)
rik maverik (Sacramento, Berlin)
153
Isn't Stephen's uncle's husband actually his uncle? I mean, that's how families work. A man is the uncle of his spouse's nieces and nephews.
I can see now why everyone is so up in arms about this gay marriage. If gays start getting married will uncles become aunties and aunties become 2nd cousins once removed, it's going to make institution of marriage very confusing. What will we call people? Will we still be able to redraw the family tree? Will straight people still be able to get divorced, or will gay people be setting too good of an example, and it would be an embarassment to straight-kind if more straights got divorced than gays.
So you ask, "What will I tell my child when a classmate has two uncles?" The answer is your classmate's uncle is gay and is married to another man who is also called his uncle. That seems simple enough.
You know I have two uncles who are married... just not to each other. Actually one of them is divorced. I'm not sure if he is gay, I've never thought to ask.
I can see now why everyone is so up in arms about this gay marriage. If gays start getting married will uncles become aunties and aunties become 2nd cousins once removed, it's going to make institution of marriage very confusing. What will we call people? Will we still be able to redraw the family tree? Will straight people still be able to get divorced, or will gay people be setting too good of an example, and it would be an embarassment to straight-kind if more straights got divorced than gays.
So you ask, "What will I tell my child when a classmate has two uncles?" The answer is your classmate's uncle is gay and is married to another man who is also called his uncle. That seems simple enough.
You know I have two uncles who are married... just not to each other. Actually one of them is divorced. I'm not sure if he is gay, I've never thought to ask.
154
Dan - i'm a 60 year old straight guy (feel obligated to mention that). I'm writing as I watch you on Larry King. I've seen and heard you speak eloquently on this subject, and admire how well you handle yourself against the ignorance and narrowmindedness you always face. Don't stop. Although I have not been an activist in past, I volunteered for Obama's campaign, and felt a great sense of satisfaction. Tomorrow morning I am going to the Prop. 8 protest in downtown San Jose. No matter what happens in the near term, history proves that justice will prevail. I will try to do my small part.
Alan Z.
Alan Z.
155
Marriage is not a legal entity done by the state. Before there was a state there was God who ordained married. We have taken marriage so far out of context that it is truly shaming how morally laxed we have become as a society. In the beginning God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, nor Lucy and June. Marriage was begun when a man and woman knew each other. So can you imaging how many of us are running around committing adultery. Read your Bible people. The act that you are talking was a celebration for family and friends ust to show that the act had occurred. There was no justic of the peace when Adam and Eve got married, it was just God and he ordained that marriage. The state got in on the act as a way of making money by allowing the divorce factor to enter the picture for gain for one or the other partner. Those of you who are running around getting divorces and remarring, or sleeping around with anyone you might want to rethink that one. When you stand before God he is not going to judge whethere it was a legal action performed by states/city hall. He is going to ask how many husbands have you had, and you will not be able to lie as we do to ourselves when we try to make the wrong choices. You can't hide what you do, because God knows. However, if you do not believe in God then don't worry about it, just keep on doing what you are doing. Trying to get things to suit yourselves because you feel that you can and instead of just doing what you want, you want everyone on the bandwagon even though everyone does not agree with it, nor have faith in the way you want to live your life. You do have choices, but they are your choices, not other peoples. If you choose to live a gay lifestyle, that is your business, not everyone elses. We don't want to know. If you are our biological sisters and brothers, we love you despite of, but we hate your choices, not you. Don't try to make people choose between you and God. You might win some, but you will loose those that you supposedly care about. Read your Bible, get an understanding of God's word, see if what you believe about the rights of gays hold up to what God's word says, or sin period. Adultery is a sin, sex without benefit of marriage is a sin, and the list goes on and on, but people don't want to acknowledge their action, but the day is coming when you will acknowledge them, we will not be able to hide from them, and we will not be able to force others to be a party to our sins. God loves everyone, but not always their actions. He is the only who can destroy both the body and soul in hell. But you will make your choice to decide the matter. Think about it now while you are still on this side of life. We are commanded to love the person, but not the sin. Don't try to stick us with those people that have an aversion to people's lifestyle and take it to the extreme with beatings and murder, that is not the majority of us who are against marriages between two people of the same sex. Stop trying to make us look like crazies because you only make it harder for yourselves. God is love!
More...
156
From a native Utahn…
Not all of Utah opposes same sex marriage! I was very much opposed to Prop 8 and I believe this IS very much a civil rights issue. I was born and raised in Utah in a LDS family, but sent in my formal written resignation to the LDS church on Tuesday. Although I had a few years ago in most ways already parted ways with the church, I was so saddened and embarrassed by the passing Prop 8 and the tremendous efforts made by my former church, I felt I did not want the association with it, even if by name. I do not condone violence or destruction, but I support peaceful protesting because that is an American right.
But what people outside Utah don’t understand is, that in this state (I’m not in agreement with the majority of this state), people already believe the rest of the country alienates them. I remember reading an article a week or two before the election in The City Weekly, and the author essentially claimed that our sport teams did not get national TV coverage because the country was still biased against Mormons for practicing polygamy over 150 years ago. He went on to quote Brigham Young calling the federal government dirty scamps for being invasive and impeding upon their beliefs.
Unfortunately post-election, people have become more extreme about their paranoia. I heard a girl say that her bishop had stated that if they didn’t support prop 8, the government would force them to allow gay marriages within the temple. Although that would be impossible, this is a classic example of what I grew up with and everyone is really afraid.
Protests are important and I wouldn’t be opposed to joining them, but let’s also focus on the next steps needed to be taken because Mormons are already claiming that, “Satan is prosecuting them yet again because they are the one and only true church.” Thus, we don’t want to give them any more reason to agree with themselves on this topic ;)
More...
Not all of Utah opposes same sex marriage! I was very much opposed to Prop 8 and I believe this IS very much a civil rights issue. I was born and raised in Utah in a LDS family, but sent in my formal written resignation to the LDS church on Tuesday. Although I had a few years ago in most ways already parted ways with the church, I was so saddened and embarrassed by the passing Prop 8 and the tremendous efforts made by my former church, I felt I did not want the association with it, even if by name. I do not condone violence or destruction, but I support peaceful protesting because that is an American right.
But what people outside Utah don’t understand is, that in this state (I’m not in agreement with the majority of this state), people already believe the rest of the country alienates them. I remember reading an article a week or two before the election in The City Weekly, and the author essentially claimed that our sport teams did not get national TV coverage because the country was still biased against Mormons for practicing polygamy over 150 years ago. He went on to quote Brigham Young calling the federal government dirty scamps for being invasive and impeding upon their beliefs.
Unfortunately post-election, people have become more extreme about their paranoia. I heard a girl say that her bishop had stated that if they didn’t support prop 8, the government would force them to allow gay marriages within the temple. Although that would be impossible, this is a classic example of what I grew up with and everyone is really afraid.
Protests are important and I wouldn’t be opposed to joining them, but let’s also focus on the next steps needed to be taken because Mormons are already claiming that, “Satan is prosecuting them yet again because they are the one and only true church.” Thus, we don’t want to give them any more reason to agree with themselves on this topic ;)
157
To Lisa - I respect your right to believe in God and the Bible, and in this country you are free to do that for just the reason why your argument is totally irrelevant. This is a legal issue of equal rights in America, where the rule of law is based on reason, not religion. The American system of government and laws is secular. We are not a theocracy (say, like Iran), where laws are based on religious doctrine. Our laws are not based on writings that were made thousands of years ago, and are questionable as to fact. This is not about marriage, the religious or spiritual rite; but about allowing two consenting adults to get a civil license so as to get all the rights they equally deserve in our society. You need to put aside your religious faith and personal belief system, and support the U.S. Constitution and equal treatment under the law.
158
Alan Z - sorry but it is about marriage, and the attempt to redefine what marriage is.
The reality is, the same sex movement will not rest until marriage is no longer defined as between a man and a woman, and even civil unions with all of the exact same rights as marriage will not be good enough for this movement...
I personally am fine with marriage being same sex partners - but I do think this movement, and Dan, tend to dismiss the polarizing aspect of the issue and try to paint this as a civil rights issue way too much. The movement wants to redefine an institution which has its roots in religion, and use the separation of church and state, a newborn concept in the history of humankind as the justification. They dismiss religious beliefs far too easily, and seem to believe that human history is irrelevant.
This movement is on a soapbox and in many ways is ramming the need for same sex legitimacy in the eyes of mainstream society down our throats. It is easy to forget that in California the judicial system legislated from the bench and prop 8 was and is about reversing that travesty. The courts in California manipulated the system. It's wrong.
Sure, same sex marriage will win, and cooler heads will prevail and life goes on and same sex parents will raise children as well as anyone but this movement is more about a large chip on the shoulders of gay community more than about the actual marriage issue.
To be honest I am sick of hearing Dan's canned responses over and over, and really tired of him talking over everyone who does not agree with him on the talk show circuit.
The reality is, the same sex movement will not rest until marriage is no longer defined as between a man and a woman, and even civil unions with all of the exact same rights as marriage will not be good enough for this movement...
I personally am fine with marriage being same sex partners - but I do think this movement, and Dan, tend to dismiss the polarizing aspect of the issue and try to paint this as a civil rights issue way too much. The movement wants to redefine an institution which has its roots in religion, and use the separation of church and state, a newborn concept in the history of humankind as the justification. They dismiss religious beliefs far too easily, and seem to believe that human history is irrelevant.
This movement is on a soapbox and in many ways is ramming the need for same sex legitimacy in the eyes of mainstream society down our throats. It is easy to forget that in California the judicial system legislated from the bench and prop 8 was and is about reversing that travesty. The courts in California manipulated the system. It's wrong.
Sure, same sex marriage will win, and cooler heads will prevail and life goes on and same sex parents will raise children as well as anyone but this movement is more about a large chip on the shoulders of gay community more than about the actual marriage issue.
To be honest I am sick of hearing Dan's canned responses over and over, and really tired of him talking over everyone who does not agree with him on the talk show circuit.
159
Dan, thanks for being one of the strongest voices out there for same-sex marriage and civil rights. Your example and your hard work are greatly appreciated.
Seems the church is asking the same-sex population to bail them out of the mess marriage has gotten into, doesn't it? The argument that the meaning of marriage is eroded, the definition changed, and the institution attacked is absurd.
In fact, it is odd that the "pro-family" folks wouldn't want over a half-million children in same-sex homes to be protected by the same laws that protect their children and families. Seems a little hypocritical for our "pro-family" friends. . . .
Seems the church is asking the same-sex population to bail them out of the mess marriage has gotten into, doesn't it? The argument that the meaning of marriage is eroded, the definition changed, and the institution attacked is absurd.
In fact, it is odd that the "pro-family" folks wouldn't want over a half-million children in same-sex homes to be protected by the same laws that protect their children and families. Seems a little hypocritical for our "pro-family" friends. . . .
160
I'm a California resident, North Bay area. I still have my "No on Eight" sign on my yard. No sense in taking it down before its appealed ( I've spares if it wears out or is taken).
It shouldn't have past. However I love it that it is not being allowed to stand without serious repercussions for those businesses and individuals that supported it.
I was ambivalent about marriage versus civil unions until I saw the pictures of the 2004 weddings in SF. At that point I became ashamed for being a cretin - no one has the right to deprive anyone else that happiness and comfort. The fact that I'm married with a family makes me more adamant that every individual should have the same right.
Do not sit on your asses and bemoan the injustice.
Let's make it go away! See you at the protests!
It shouldn't have past. However I love it that it is not being allowed to stand without serious repercussions for those businesses and individuals that supported it.
I was ambivalent about marriage versus civil unions until I saw the pictures of the 2004 weddings in SF. At that point I became ashamed for being a cretin - no one has the right to deprive anyone else that happiness and comfort. The fact that I'm married with a family makes me more adamant that every individual should have the same right.
Do not sit on your asses and bemoan the injustice.
Let's make it go away! See you at the protests!
161
I saw you on AC 360 the other night with that monster Perkins. You did a great job articulating our points. He just refuses to have a logical conversation about Prop 8. He and people like him are just convinced that they have morality and God's will on their side. Fortunately, our government is not based on perceptions of morality, but on facts and logic. We will eventually prevail. I'm off to a protest in downtown LA today and we will be heard. Nobody ever had their civil rights handed to them. It worth having so it's worth fighting for. As long as we keep our protests loud, visible and free of stupidity and destruction, we will win over those who would have us remain second class citizens.
162
Prop 8's success requires a different approach. So far the gay community has only been seeking equality, which is symbolized by the Human Rights Campaign's yellow and blue equal sign. You mused in your recent Lovecast the need for a new symbol, just to mess with people's minds. I'm suggesting that sign be the division sign with a slash thru it. It is our willingness to help the religious right take the next obvious step to save marriage. No divorce would ultimately save EVERY EXISTING MARRIAGE. When I'm finally canonized, sign me St. Garrit.
163
Maybe the direction of PINTS's vagina is tilted in an unusual way. I'm tilted a little back/down, so intercourse some positions are really uncomfortable for me. But the sideways-X position (that's what we've always called it!) is really good, especially when we're both very tired.
164
The Civil Liberties being denied to adult Americans is literally unconstitutiona. Forgive the play on words, but it has brought out the Rodney Queen fight for this time in American History.
Biblical laws have no place in Civil Rights.
Biblical laws have no place in Civil Rights.
165
Dan Savage,youre a nice guy,but for God's sake, start reading the Bible so you wont be fooled by surrogate christians with their texts!!! If you read Matthew 19 or Mark 10 you will read there that Jesus only spoke about a man going to a wife and not sayin anything about other relations, so YOU were fooled by the black pastor of the good hope (HALLELUJAH! SIC!!!) church, whatever obscure that inclines obviously....If you want more info; heres my email Muziek967@hotmail.com
166
dan
I was thinking about you on my drive home the other night and how great you were when I saw you @ WWU years ago. I came home and turned on Comedy Central and there you were! Yay! Keep up the great work, you are a gift to society.
I too felt the excitement and sadness on election night living in California. It's far from over.
I was thinking about you on my drive home the other night and how great you were when I saw you @ WWU years ago. I came home and turned on Comedy Central and there you were! Yay! Keep up the great work, you are a gift to society.
I too felt the excitement and sadness on election night living in California. It's far from over.
168
It's funny how people get so pissed when their opinions aren't supported by the majority, but couldn't give a shit about the fact that other people have their beliefs too.
169
I think heterosexuality should be banned so this pathetic race can die off. Obviously people are idiots, and butt sex and plastic cocks are king. God bless Obama!!
170
I love your attitude Dan. Its high time that the Gay community goes on the offensive instead of being on defense all the time. Here's my suggestions: make the bastards prove that there even is such a thing as traditional marriage before they use it to clobber us with, make them prove that there is such a thing as the "institution of marriage" and that the notion is not just a fairy tale invented to maintain a system of rewarding privilaged status to some above others, and make them explain why some perceived framework rooted in religion is even relevant when the true argument is whether every citizen has an inherent right to the mate of his or her choice or only some do. All else is peripheral. Once that is established there is no justification for affording privilaged status to heterosexuals.
Loved you on Colbert Nation and felt some empathy for you when you had to deal with D.L. Hughley.
Loved you on Colbert Nation and felt some empathy for you when you had to deal with D.L. Hughley.
171
Hey Dan:
Saw you on CNN and thank you for realizing that Blacks are not the enemy. I am pleased to see all the protests. As I said in my post to yuo last week, attack the power structure that funded this and put it on the ballot. They are the real enemy.
You go boy!
Thelea333
Saw you on CNN and thank you for realizing that Blacks are not the enemy. I am pleased to see all the protests. As I said in my post to yuo last week, attack the power structure that funded this and put it on the ballot. They are the real enemy.
You go boy!
Thelea333
172
Laura Boll:
What you described is the pervasive legacy of slavery when families were not valued and could be dissolved at will, and poverty that has taken a terrible psychological toll on the community. It is to be pitied.
Don't trust exit polls. I think they are pitting one group against the other. African-Americans are less than 7% of the state population, do the math. Many more Whites voted and they put this over, not Blacks. What are the total numbers of each group that voted. Someone dug into the data and found that we're just now learning is that the exit poll was based on less than 2,300 people. If you take into account that blacks in California only make up about 6.2%, we get roughly 224 blacks who were polled. 224 blacks to blame an entire race! The truth is, I have heard that Prop 8 passed because of Republican support. 82% of Republicans admitted to supporting the proposition. They were not the ones who came out to vote for Obama. One blogger states that if you look at all the data, you'll see numbers for first time voters. They rejected Prop 8 by a 62-38 margin. These first time voters were overwhelmingly for Obama, 83-17. Without Obama, Prop 8 would have passed by a much larger margin.
Religious organizations that support Proposition 8 include the Roman Catholic Church], Knights of Columbus, Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) a group of Evangelical Christians led by Jim Garlow and Miles McPherson, American Family Association, Focus on the Family[and the National Organization for Marriage Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church, California's largest, has also endorsed the measure. The Bishops of the California Catholic Conference released a statement supporting the proposition. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) has publicly supported the proposition and encouraged their membership to support it, by asking its members to donate money and volunteer time. The First Presidency of the church announced its support for Proposition 8 in a letter read in every congregation. Latter-day Saints have provided a significant source for financial donations in support of the proposition, both inside and outside the State of California. About 45% of out-of-state contributions to Protect Marriage.com has come from Utah, over three times more than any other state
More...
What you described is the pervasive legacy of slavery when families were not valued and could be dissolved at will, and poverty that has taken a terrible psychological toll on the community. It is to be pitied.
Don't trust exit polls. I think they are pitting one group against the other. African-Americans are less than 7% of the state population, do the math. Many more Whites voted and they put this over, not Blacks. What are the total numbers of each group that voted. Someone dug into the data and found that we're just now learning is that the exit poll was based on less than 2,300 people. If you take into account that blacks in California only make up about 6.2%, we get roughly 224 blacks who were polled. 224 blacks to blame an entire race! The truth is, I have heard that Prop 8 passed because of Republican support. 82% of Republicans admitted to supporting the proposition. They were not the ones who came out to vote for Obama. One blogger states that if you look at all the data, you'll see numbers for first time voters. They rejected Prop 8 by a 62-38 margin. These first time voters were overwhelmingly for Obama, 83-17. Without Obama, Prop 8 would have passed by a much larger margin.
Religious organizations that support Proposition 8 include the Roman Catholic Church], Knights of Columbus, Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) a group of Evangelical Christians led by Jim Garlow and Miles McPherson, American Family Association, Focus on the Family[and the National Organization for Marriage Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church, California's largest, has also endorsed the measure. The Bishops of the California Catholic Conference released a statement supporting the proposition. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) has publicly supported the proposition and encouraged their membership to support it, by asking its members to donate money and volunteer time. The First Presidency of the church announced its support for Proposition 8 in a letter read in every congregation. Latter-day Saints have provided a significant source for financial donations in support of the proposition, both inside and outside the State of California. About 45% of out-of-state contributions to Protect Marriage.com has come from Utah, over three times more than any other state
173
PINTS,
Get yourself to a doctor. Hopefully one who knows something about pelvic pain conditions. Your ordinary everyday gyno has exactly zero clue about this stuff and is likely to tell you "Use more lube". This is total and utter bullshit.
There are a multitude of things that can cause painful intercourse. Some of them have been gone over in previous comments.
Fibroids
Vulvodynia/vestibular vaginitis.
Endometriosis
Tipped cervix
Weak pelvic floor muscles
Persistent yeast infections
And a lot more.
Although there is some small chance that the problem you're having is a size issue or you need to be more relaxed and that shouldn't be totally discounted, what is much more likely is that you have one of the above physical/medical conditions and you need a doctor to help you sort out what's causing the pain. There is no one-size-fits-all answer.
Most gynos know fuck-all about pelvic pain and will probably tell you anything to get you out of their office. Don't listen when they tell you it's normal or that it's all in your head. Don't take "I don't know" for an answer. Go to another doctor. If you don't have access to anyone who knows anything about pelvic pain try to convince your gyno to do some research. There's lots of info out there. Try doing a google search for "Pelvic pain" This is the guy who my ex went to and although he didn't cure the problem he was able to make it much better. http://www.jmweissmd.com/
Best of luck to you and yours.
Get yourself to a doctor. Hopefully one who knows something about pelvic pain conditions. Your ordinary everyday gyno has exactly zero clue about this stuff and is likely to tell you "Use more lube". This is total and utter bullshit.
There are a multitude of things that can cause painful intercourse. Some of them have been gone over in previous comments.
Fibroids
Vulvodynia/vestibular vaginitis.
Endometriosis
Tipped cervix
Weak pelvic floor muscles
Persistent yeast infections
And a lot more.
Although there is some small chance that the problem you're having is a size issue or you need to be more relaxed and that shouldn't be totally discounted, what is much more likely is that you have one of the above physical/medical conditions and you need a doctor to help you sort out what's causing the pain. There is no one-size-fits-all answer.
Most gynos know fuck-all about pelvic pain and will probably tell you anything to get you out of their office. Don't listen when they tell you it's normal or that it's all in your head. Don't take "I don't know" for an answer. Go to another doctor. If you don't have access to anyone who knows anything about pelvic pain try to convince your gyno to do some research. There's lots of info out there. Try doing a google search for "Pelvic pain" This is the guy who my ex went to and although he didn't cure the problem he was able to make it much better. http://www.jmweissmd.com/
Best of luck to you and yours.
174
dan - I saw you with Joy Behar on Larry King and on the D.L. Hughley show and you are fantastic. I am a straight white female and a lawyer, and I greatly appreciate your reasoned, intellectual response to each question posed to you and to the supporters of Prop 8. I was greatly disappointed in American on Nov. 4, but I also know that gay marriage is inevitable. Keep up the good fight.
175
To those who hold the false belief homosexuality is a "choice" and "unnatural":
Homosexual attraction is hard-wired in gays' brains (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/745658…) most likely in the womb. It is natural for them to love members of the same sex. It is no more natural for them to romantically love members of the opposite sex than for straights to romantically love the members of the same sex. It is just as unnatural to force a straight lifestyle on gays as it is to force a gay lifestyle on straights. You may think you are "protecting" children and encouraging a "healthy lifestyle" by telling them the "negative consequences" of homosexuality, but doing this actually increases depression and suicide in gays. (See http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200…). It is much healthier to teach them safe ways to have sex (once they are old enough) than to tell them their very identity is bad. Do not misread the bible. It condemns acting in an unnatural way (Romans 1:27), God NEVER condemns gay love. Why would He? Why would he condemn something he created? " God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." (Jeremiah 29:11)
Just because two members of the same sex who love each other cannot reproduce does not make it unnatural. Their love is natural, and that is what counts. Gay men have larger families on their mother's side of the family than straight men. (See: http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchArti…). The theory is that these women have an extra strong attraction to men, which they pass on to male and female children alike. This trait has been found to be beneficial for people, because it increases a woman's fertility. Gay men are also less likely to be the first born (see the maternal immune hypothesis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11534…), thus allowing straight men (which might I remind you makes up a majority of the population) to be born.
So in fact, homosexuality is not only natural, but a result of the goodness of our nature, not the bad. If we encourage gays to "come out," then we can know the families that have such beneficial traits, and increase the prosperity of humanity.
God, or nature for that matter, would not create gays if they were harmful of prosperity:
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself (Isaiah 44:24)
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. (Jeremiah 29:11)
More...
Homosexual attraction is hard-wired in gays' brains (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/745658…) most likely in the womb. It is natural for them to love members of the same sex. It is no more natural for them to romantically love members of the opposite sex than for straights to romantically love the members of the same sex. It is just as unnatural to force a straight lifestyle on gays as it is to force a gay lifestyle on straights. You may think you are "protecting" children and encouraging a "healthy lifestyle" by telling them the "negative consequences" of homosexuality, but doing this actually increases depression and suicide in gays. (See http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200…). It is much healthier to teach them safe ways to have sex (once they are old enough) than to tell them their very identity is bad. Do not misread the bible. It condemns acting in an unnatural way (Romans 1:27), God NEVER condemns gay love. Why would He? Why would he condemn something he created? " God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." (Jeremiah 29:11)
Just because two members of the same sex who love each other cannot reproduce does not make it unnatural. Their love is natural, and that is what counts. Gay men have larger families on their mother's side of the family than straight men. (See: http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchArti…). The theory is that these women have an extra strong attraction to men, which they pass on to male and female children alike. This trait has been found to be beneficial for people, because it increases a woman's fertility. Gay men are also less likely to be the first born (see the maternal immune hypothesis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11534…), thus allowing straight men (which might I remind you makes up a majority of the population) to be born.
So in fact, homosexuality is not only natural, but a result of the goodness of our nature, not the bad. If we encourage gays to "come out," then we can know the families that have such beneficial traits, and increase the prosperity of humanity.
God, or nature for that matter, would not create gays if they were harmful of prosperity:
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself (Isaiah 44:24)
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. (Jeremiah 29:11)
176
To those who hold the false belief homosexuality is a "choice" and "unnatural":
Homosexual attraction is hard-wired in gays' brains (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/745658…) most likely in the womb. It is natural for them to love members of the same sex. It is no more natural for them to romantically love members of the opposite sex than for straights to romantically love the members of the same sex. It is just as unnatural to force a straight lifestyle on gays as it is to force a gay lifestyle on straights. You may think you are "protecting" children and encouraging a "healthy lifestyle" by telling them the "negative consequences" of homosexuality, but doing this actually increases depression and suicide in gays. (See http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200…). It is much healthier to teach them safe ways to have sex (once they are old enough) than to tell them their very identity is bad. Do not misread the bible. It condemns acting in an unnatural way (Romans 1:27), God NEVER condemns gay love. Why would He? Why would he condemn something he created? " God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." (Jeremiah 29:11)
Just because two members of the same sex who love each other cannot reproduce does not make it unnatural. Their love is natural, and that is what counts. Gay men have larger families on their mother's side of the family than straight men. (See: http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchArti…). The theory is that these women have an extra strong attraction to men, which they pass on to male and female children alike. This trait has been found to be beneficial for people, because it increases a woman's fertility. Gay men are also less likely to be the first born (see the maternal immune hypothesis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11534…), thus allowing straight men (which might I remind you makes up a majority of the population) to be born.
So in fact, homosexuality is not only natural, but a result of the goodness of our nature, not the bad. If we encourage gays to "come out," then we can know the families that have such beneficial traits, and increase the prosperity of humanity.
God, or nature for that matter, would not create gays if they were harmful of prosperity:
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself (Isaiah 44:24)
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. (Jeremiah 29:11)
More...
Homosexual attraction is hard-wired in gays' brains (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/745658…) most likely in the womb. It is natural for them to love members of the same sex. It is no more natural for them to romantically love members of the opposite sex than for straights to romantically love the members of the same sex. It is just as unnatural to force a straight lifestyle on gays as it is to force a gay lifestyle on straights. You may think you are "protecting" children and encouraging a "healthy lifestyle" by telling them the "negative consequences" of homosexuality, but doing this actually increases depression and suicide in gays. (See http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200…). It is much healthier to teach them safe ways to have sex (once they are old enough) than to tell them their very identity is bad. Do not misread the bible. It condemns acting in an unnatural way (Romans 1:27), God NEVER condemns gay love. Why would He? Why would he condemn something he created? " God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." (Jeremiah 29:11)
Just because two members of the same sex who love each other cannot reproduce does not make it unnatural. Their love is natural, and that is what counts. Gay men have larger families on their mother's side of the family than straight men. (See: http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchArti…). The theory is that these women have an extra strong attraction to men, which they pass on to male and female children alike. This trait has been found to be beneficial for people, because it increases a woman's fertility. Gay men are also less likely to be the first born (see the maternal immune hypothesis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11534…), thus allowing straight men (which might I remind you makes up a majority of the population) to be born.
So in fact, homosexuality is not only natural, but a result of the goodness of our nature, not the bad. If we encourage gays to "come out," then we can know the families that have such beneficial traits, and increase the prosperity of humanity.
God, or nature for that matter, would not create gays if they were harmful of prosperity:
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself (Isaiah 44:24)
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. (Jeremiah 29:11)
177
To those who hold the false belief homosexuality is a "choice" and "unnatural":
Homosexual attraction is hard-wired in gays' brains (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/745658…) most likely in the womb. It is natural for them to love members of the same sex. It is no more natural for them to romantically love members of the opposite sex than for straights to romantically love the members of the same sex. It is just as unnatural to force a straight lifestyle on gays as it is to force a gay lifestyle on straights. You may think you are "protecting" children and encouraging a "healthy lifestyle" by telling them the "negative consequences" of homosexuality, but doing this actually increases depression and suicide in gays. (See http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200…). It is much healthier to teach them safe ways to have sex (once they are old enough) than to tell them their very identity is bad. Do not misread the bible. It condemns acting in an unnatural way (Romans 1:27), God NEVER condemns gay love. Why would He? Why would he condemn something he created? " God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." (Jeremiah 29:11)
Just because two members of the same sex who love each other cannot reproduce does not make it unnatural. Their love is natural, and that is what counts. Gay men have larger families on their mother's side of the family than straight men. (See: http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchArti…). The theory is that these women have an extra strong attraction to men, which they pass on to male and female children alike. This trait has been found to be beneficial for people, because it increases a woman's fertility. Gay men are also less likely to be the first born (see the maternal immune hypothesis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11534…), thus allowing straight men (which might I remind you makes up a majority of the population) to be born.
So in fact, homosexuality is not only natural, but a result of the goodness of our nature, not the bad. If we encourage gays to "come out," then we can know the families that have such beneficial traits, and increase the prosperity of humanity.
God, or nature for that matter, would not create gays if they were harmful of prosperity:
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself (Isaiah 44:24)
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. (Jeremiah 29:11)
More...
Homosexual attraction is hard-wired in gays' brains (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/745658…) most likely in the womb. It is natural for them to love members of the same sex. It is no more natural for them to romantically love members of the opposite sex than for straights to romantically love the members of the same sex. It is just as unnatural to force a straight lifestyle on gays as it is to force a gay lifestyle on straights. You may think you are "protecting" children and encouraging a "healthy lifestyle" by telling them the "negative consequences" of homosexuality, but doing this actually increases depression and suicide in gays. (See http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200…). It is much healthier to teach them safe ways to have sex (once they are old enough) than to tell them their very identity is bad. Do not misread the bible. It condemns acting in an unnatural way (Romans 1:27), God NEVER condemns gay love. Why would He? Why would he condemn something he created? " God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." (Jeremiah 29:11)
Just because two members of the same sex who love each other cannot reproduce does not make it unnatural. Their love is natural, and that is what counts. Gay men have larger families on their mother's side of the family than straight men. (See: http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchArti…). The theory is that these women have an extra strong attraction to men, which they pass on to male and female children alike. This trait has been found to be beneficial for people, because it increases a woman's fertility. Gay men are also less likely to be the first born (see the maternal immune hypothesis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11534…), thus allowing straight men (which might I remind you makes up a majority of the population) to be born.
So in fact, homosexuality is not only natural, but a result of the goodness of our nature, not the bad. If we encourage gays to "come out," then we can know the families that have such beneficial traits, and increase the prosperity of humanity.
God, or nature for that matter, would not create gays if they were harmful of prosperity:
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself (Isaiah 44:24)
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. (Jeremiah 29:11)
178
Caught you on D. L. Hughley's show last night. Nice Job! As a straight, secular humanist, I have no "dog in this fight, personally, but I did send the following to CNN:
First, I am a huge fan, but I am disappointed that Mr. Hughley missed the point entirely with Dan Savage on California's Proposition 8. (I did note that he voted against it.) Faith is not the issue here.
A marriage performed by any ordained priest, minister, etc., absent a civilly issued marriage license, would not be valid. Marriage, under the law, is a civil institution, period! If a couple chooses to involve religion that is their right and no one else’s concern.
Under the California Family Code, Section 400.e, marriage may even be "solemnized" (interesting choice of words) by "a legislator or constitutional officer of this state or a member of Congress who represents a district within this state, while that person holds office.” I, for one, place little faith there.
Regarding the U. S. Constitution, the Cornell University Law School (http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/Equal_…) clarifies this nicely:
“The equal protection clause is not intended to provide ‘equality’ among individuals or classes but only ‘equal application’ of the laws. The result, therefore, of a law is not relevant so long as there is no discrimination in its application. By denying states the ability to discriminate, the equal protection clause of the Constitution is crucial to the protection of civil rights.”
While, as Mr. Savage pointed out, this does not rise to the level of the Civil Rights violations which African Americans have endured for so long, the 14th Amendment would seem to indicate that civil rights are being violated here.
I do hope that Mr. Hughley has the time and interest to look at this.
Thank you.
More...
First, I am a huge fan, but I am disappointed that Mr. Hughley missed the point entirely with Dan Savage on California's Proposition 8. (I did note that he voted against it.) Faith is not the issue here.
A marriage performed by any ordained priest, minister, etc., absent a civilly issued marriage license, would not be valid. Marriage, under the law, is a civil institution, period! If a couple chooses to involve religion that is their right and no one else’s concern.
Under the California Family Code, Section 400.e, marriage may even be "solemnized" (interesting choice of words) by "a legislator or constitutional officer of this state or a member of Congress who represents a district within this state, while that person holds office.” I, for one, place little faith there.
Regarding the U. S. Constitution, the Cornell University Law School (http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/Equal_…) clarifies this nicely:
“The equal protection clause is not intended to provide ‘equality’ among individuals or classes but only ‘equal application’ of the laws. The result, therefore, of a law is not relevant so long as there is no discrimination in its application. By denying states the ability to discriminate, the equal protection clause of the Constitution is crucial to the protection of civil rights.”
While, as Mr. Savage pointed out, this does not rise to the level of the Civil Rights violations which African Americans have endured for so long, the 14th Amendment would seem to indicate that civil rights are being violated here.
I do hope that Mr. Hughley has the time and interest to look at this.
Thank you.
179
Okay. If it is huring you, he isn't "waiting until you're relaxed." At most, he's waiting until you, who doesn't know your body, mistakenly tells him you're relaxed when you're not. Or, he just waits until you uncross your legs.
And, the fact that he "will change positions or stop when I ask" does not mean he's good in bed. It means he's not technically raping you.
Please, both of you, go to a sex therapist. They will suggest exercises to help you get to know each others' bodies, so that you're not having bad sex 3-4 times a week because you think that's how sex works. You know something is not right, and your body is not going to cooperate until your body and mind are in synch.
And, the fact that he "will change positions or stop when I ask" does not mean he's good in bed. It means he's not technically raping you.
Please, both of you, go to a sex therapist. They will suggest exercises to help you get to know each others' bodies, so that you're not having bad sex 3-4 times a week because you think that's how sex works. You know something is not right, and your body is not going to cooperate until your body and mind are in synch.
180
Why is it that same sex marriage is always assumed to be a homosexual union?
Ive known more then a few same sex "best friends" that have lived with each other in harmony for many years, and these people arent 'gay', but very happy with the arrangement none the less.
They even have heterosexual dates and relationships with others,but usually stay hardcore loyal to each other.
Same sex marriage isnt just for queers.
Or are these people just latent, and dont know it?
Ive known more then a few same sex "best friends" that have lived with each other in harmony for many years, and these people arent 'gay', but very happy with the arrangement none the less.
They even have heterosexual dates and relationships with others,but usually stay hardcore loyal to each other.
Same sex marriage isnt just for queers.
Or are these people just latent, and dont know it?
181
PINTS: Look into vulvar vestibulitis. It's a neurological condition with few symptoms (though skin tearing is fairly common). The diagnosis is usually done with a biofeedback machine. It's really sucktacular but can be dealt with. Just be prepared for insurance to not cover it.
182
My take on prop 8 is not a lot of people voted. Talk to your frineds in CA, sure they say I see no reason and it would be stupid to not let gays marry. Did you vote? No.
It became out a war between gays and religious fucktard zealots. There are less gays.
It became out a war between gays and religious fucktard zealots. There are less gays.
183
Not enough people felt it important enough to vote here in CA.
So many who feel outlawing same sex marriage is just backwards and stupid, did not vote.
It was about the gays against the religious zealots. Those with real passion about the issue.
Hopefully next time around those who did not vote have seen the impact they could have had or did have by not voting.
Many I spoke to against prop 8 did not vote yet were amazed it passed.
Its like the crowd phenomena when less people are around a person is more likely to step up and do the right thing, help out. A huge crowd will watch a rape in progress where as one witness only will step in to help. That same 'hero' if in a crowd won't do anything.
Everyone standing around assumes someone will do the right thing, no need for them to get involved.
So many who feel outlawing same sex marriage is just backwards and stupid, did not vote.
It was about the gays against the religious zealots. Those with real passion about the issue.
Hopefully next time around those who did not vote have seen the impact they could have had or did have by not voting.
Many I spoke to against prop 8 did not vote yet were amazed it passed.
Its like the crowd phenomena when less people are around a person is more likely to step up and do the right thing, help out. A huge crowd will watch a rape in progress where as one witness only will step in to help. That same 'hero' if in a crowd won't do anything.
Everyone standing around assumes someone will do the right thing, no need for them to get involved.
184
I have a question. If a heterosexual couple were go get married in a state like California, and then one of them changes their sex, is their marriage legal or not? Shouldn't that kind of situation make the entire govt interference in a couple's legal rights - heterosexual or not - become moot? I think a test court case would be a good way to move your movement forward.
185
Dear Dan Savage,
I'm a straight black woman living in L.A. I voted NO on Prop 8 and if HELL NO had been a choice, I would have voted that.
I just want you and the whole LGBT community to know that there are plenty straight people of color, both men and women, who support your struggle and who voted NO.
I wholeheartedly agree with every point I've ever seen you make on TV too. Keep fighting the good fight, we are fighting right beside you!!
Peace and blessings!
SS
I'm a straight black woman living in L.A. I voted NO on Prop 8 and if HELL NO had been a choice, I would have voted that.
I just want you and the whole LGBT community to know that there are plenty straight people of color, both men and women, who support your struggle and who voted NO.
I wholeheartedly agree with every point I've ever seen you make on TV too. Keep fighting the good fight, we are fighting right beside you!!
Peace and blessings!
SS
186
Dan!! Please, when you go to do interviews with the mass media, please bring to people's attention the fact that an atheist can be issued a marriage license by the state. In addition, no one, same-sex couples included, are seeking to revoke atheist marriages. Clearly the government has not reserved the word marriage for religiously sanctioned unions when you consider that atheists think God is make believe.
I am worried that we are agreeing not to mention that there are a great many people who are not straight but who do have faith in order to pacify some of the hatred and fear. No one is saying a government should ever dictate or interfere with any church's individual doctrine, but people shouldn't have to hush up about their faith in exchange for rights.
I am worried that we are agreeing not to mention that there are a great many people who are not straight but who do have faith in order to pacify some of the hatred and fear. No one is saying a government should ever dictate or interfere with any church's individual doctrine, but people shouldn't have to hush up about their faith in exchange for rights.
187
I am a strieght person who lives in california and voted no on 8, I consider myself a liberal and fully support gay rights. However, I saw Dan Savage on Bill Mahr friday night and was very disturbed by his complete disrespect for Ashton Kutchers and his marriage. I, along with many other srieght people, have never heard of Dan savage and felt offended by his attack on Ashton and feel he owes him a public apology, he only hurt his cause. I believe a gay person should be respected as a gay person, and to each his own. However, if you feel others should respect you as a gay person and have the right to marry, you should also have respect for strieght people, especially when they are married. How would you or your mate like to be harrassed by and our pursued by a stright person who thinks that you are really stright and just don't know it yet? You have to give respect in order to recieve it.
188
PINKS - ask your doctor about "tilted uterus," "sensitive cervix," and sensitivity to nonoxynol-9 - the ubiquitous spermicide that increases one's risk of contracting an STI, because it irritates the hell out of the lining the vagina/ cervix opening.
189
I thought there was an interesting discussion at the website below on race and Prop. 8. I think the PoC community got off a little easy but there were some important points made about how little difference People of Color made in comparison to white voters.
http://www.racialicious.com/2008/11/07/o…
Richard
http://www.racialicious.com/2008/11/07/o…
Richard
190
Hi Dan as a woman who has been married for 23 years and trying to get a divorce in new york for almost three years. It has taken six lawyers five judges and well over a hundred thousand dollars and with no end in site.NO ONE SHOULD GET MARRIED TILL THEY UPDATE THE WAY TO END it. thanks stll trying to get out
191
I just moved from Michigan to Florida. After watching MI. "vote" with the same verdict, moving to a different state doing the same thing really bothers me.. (I moved after the deadline, so unfortunalty I was unable to vote in the Fl. election. I'm a straight women for gay rights and it's disgusting to witness the injustices to the gay community. Alot of people has been fortunate to witness the first african american president. After the cali and florida ruling, I can only hope for the the day I can witness EVERYONE afforded the same equal rights as stated in the constituiton. SHAME ON THE RELIGOUS RIGHT! for the hypocrysy of the bible to love and except people for who they are. Just because you go to confession every week, does not mean you are clear from the eternal sins you commit. I HOPE YOU ENJOY YOUR FIREY SEATS IN HELL... You deserve it"
192
Perhaps it's time to take marriage away--not from straight people, but from the government.
We can already take it away from churches, if we want to.
Don't forget that the problem is we want civil rights, which means we want the government to NOT take away rights that are supposed to be "self-evident," meaning natural rights.
That's right, people, rights are natural. The government does not graciously invent rights out of the goodness of its heart and give them to us. They SAY that they are there to "protect our rights," when really it's there to say "we gave you your rights; now we can take them away.
Come ON, people, say BULLSHIT to that!! The government has no real, natural, actual right to meddle in our love lives and our sex lives! Neither does the Church, we knew that YEARS ago!
It's called passive resistance. But straights and clueless Pinks and Normals have to be bitch-slapped out of complacency to figure out where their own asses are. Take their "marriages" away, and make them figure out that our relationships and our property rights are our responsibility, and no group of people, no matter what uniform or monkey suit they wear has the right to take it from us, no matter how many dumbasses "voted" for it!
Awake!
We can already take it away from churches, if we want to.
Don't forget that the problem is we want civil rights, which means we want the government to NOT take away rights that are supposed to be "self-evident," meaning natural rights.
That's right, people, rights are natural. The government does not graciously invent rights out of the goodness of its heart and give them to us. They SAY that they are there to "protect our rights," when really it's there to say "we gave you your rights; now we can take them away.
Come ON, people, say BULLSHIT to that!! The government has no real, natural, actual right to meddle in our love lives and our sex lives! Neither does the Church, we knew that YEARS ago!
It's called passive resistance. But straights and clueless Pinks and Normals have to be bitch-slapped out of complacency to figure out where their own asses are. Take their "marriages" away, and make them figure out that our relationships and our property rights are our responsibility, and no group of people, no matter what uniform or monkey suit they wear has the right to take it from us, no matter how many dumbasses "voted" for it!
Awake!
193
I am one of the hated and vilified religious "nuts" that you seem to think is at the root of all your problems. To paraphrase Mr. Obama, Mr. Savage, you just don't get it. You are complaining about not getting your civil rights, which is drivel. The defeated bills were asking to legalize same-sex marriage, note the word marriage. You aren't asking for the civil rights equal to marriage, you want the inferred religious approval that goes with the word/history of marriage. Why do they call a marriage performed at city hall a CIVIL ceremony? Because it does not involve a religious figure. I can only speak for myself but I would gladly support a bill to have civil union between persons of the same sex (no reason not too, everybody deserves the same CIVIL (civil rights include the right to worship and believe what you want) rights in America) the same rights as a marriage, thus giving them all the rights the gay and lesbian community says they want. That isn't good enough though, you want MARRIAGE included in the title and that is where the problem comes in. Marriage is a religious thing and you won't ever get my vote for that because of my beliefs. So you see it is the gays insistence on the word marriage in place of civil unions that caused the outcome you can't seem to accept. Also do you think you are winning any converts to your point of view being beating up old women and causing problems? This is the system in America, go back, lick whatever feels good and get it right next time, whatever you do just grow up!! As Pogo would say, "we have met the enemy and he is us!"
194
ENOUGH.. YOU LOST.. SHUT UP.. that's why we are in america.. You PEOPLE.. and Yes I DO MEAN.. YOU PEOPLE have been bitching and moaning about this crap.. Enough is Enough.. Being QUEER does not.. and will Not Now.. or EVER make you a Race of People.. I'm sick of Hearing about GAY Rights.. Period.. You should have no More Rights then the rest of us.. and I'm sorry but the Majority of People out there DO NOT WANT YOU to marry.. they feel it is still a Bond between a Man and a woman.. PERIOD.. you got it on the ballot.. it was voted on.. YOU LOST.. NOW SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT IT.. You want to keep trying to get it on the Ballot again.. then do it without all this Other Crap.
195
Mr. Savage,
I find your interviews and comments interesting and have had the pleasure of chatting with you in person at some political cocktail party.
BUT, I disagree with your comments to DL Hughley about not trying to equate gay civil rights movement with the African-American civil rights movement of the 60s.
Gays are on the top of the list for bigots especially in the past twelve years of election cycles. We, and I mean all currently loving gays, have suffered as much as any African-American from discrimination, unless we have lied and hid, and then we have suffered more from within. I know I have.
I am sorry if my typing skills and word choices may not come across as well as yours, but I haven't had the years of lubed finger insertion exercises that you have had in the military, so bare with me.
I commented to DL and have added it below:
I was reading your(D.L. Hughley) interview with Savage about Gay Marriage.
Although he didn’t want to equate gay civil rights with African-American civil rights, I think there are a few things you should think about.
1) BAYARD RUSTIN, openly gay adviser to MLK, organizer of the most important marches and protests, and the idea man behind non-violent protests. We Were There, We helped. Look him up.
2) We are Discriminated against by our own families. A person of color, any color, can usually go to mom, dad, or grandma when they are teased or discriminated against for support. I do not have that ability, and many young people are thrown out and ostracized by family when they come to them for support. We are raised knowing that our families would despise us if they new, and always feeling that something must be wrong, why are you different?
3) We get told that we can hide, lie and stay in closet and get by. It doesn’t work all the time, you have to be careful living with someone, and it is horrible to always have to worry about someone finding out.
4) Hiding in the closet has helped civil rights movements though. Even though we are discriminated by every majority and minority group, we are in every majority and minority group and are more liberal. Even if “we” are not out professing being gay and liberal, we still have been there along the way to vote and convince others. It wasn’t African-American judges and voters who tipped the scales over the years helping civil rights movements be successful.
5) We were persecuted as well throughout history. Did anyone remember the concentration camps had over 300,000 of us?
We have to lie and hide to join military and are excluded from many groups or harassed. What sports people have felt comfortable coming out? Homophobia is higher on many bigots list than race, and remember, we are on every group’s list.
6) People don’t think it is discrimination, or that they are bigots when they hate gays.
I could go on. But this issue is not about gay marriage, it is about not being scared everyday, it is about not feeling hated everyday, it is about simple equality to feel welcome in the U.S.
Are AAs the new Oppressors/Bigots:
It is also an issue for African-Americans. It involves denying one group civil rights on one hand, and then saying civil rights should be equal for all on the other.
HIV and D-Low:
Talk to Savage again, being a sex advise guy, he may want to give you some numbers on HIV and the Down-Low factor. If people are not comfortable coming out in the African-American community, how will they be comfortable telling about their HIV or even getting tested.
Religion issue:
Jesus preached love and not hate. Read up, don’t let someone tell you what Jesus said, read it, and you will find more passages that tell you to love and treat others with respect. Jesus also makes a comment to ignore Leviticus when he talks about what is an abomination or not, and Jesus says that it doesn’t matter either way you can still go to Heaven.
Conclusion:
If the only thing you take away is that gay Bayard Rustin helped make the civil rights movement successful, then maybe you will be able to justify not denying us our rights.
More...
I find your interviews and comments interesting and have had the pleasure of chatting with you in person at some political cocktail party.
BUT, I disagree with your comments to DL Hughley about not trying to equate gay civil rights movement with the African-American civil rights movement of the 60s.
Gays are on the top of the list for bigots especially in the past twelve years of election cycles. We, and I mean all currently loving gays, have suffered as much as any African-American from discrimination, unless we have lied and hid, and then we have suffered more from within. I know I have.
I am sorry if my typing skills and word choices may not come across as well as yours, but I haven't had the years of lubed finger insertion exercises that you have had in the military, so bare with me.
I commented to DL and have added it below:
I was reading your(D.L. Hughley) interview with Savage about Gay Marriage.
Although he didn’t want to equate gay civil rights with African-American civil rights, I think there are a few things you should think about.
1) BAYARD RUSTIN, openly gay adviser to MLK, organizer of the most important marches and protests, and the idea man behind non-violent protests. We Were There, We helped. Look him up.
2) We are Discriminated against by our own families. A person of color, any color, can usually go to mom, dad, or grandma when they are teased or discriminated against for support. I do not have that ability, and many young people are thrown out and ostracized by family when they come to them for support. We are raised knowing that our families would despise us if they new, and always feeling that something must be wrong, why are you different?
3) We get told that we can hide, lie and stay in closet and get by. It doesn’t work all the time, you have to be careful living with someone, and it is horrible to always have to worry about someone finding out.
4) Hiding in the closet has helped civil rights movements though. Even though we are discriminated by every majority and minority group, we are in every majority and minority group and are more liberal. Even if “we” are not out professing being gay and liberal, we still have been there along the way to vote and convince others. It wasn’t African-American judges and voters who tipped the scales over the years helping civil rights movements be successful.
5) We were persecuted as well throughout history. Did anyone remember the concentration camps had over 300,000 of us?
We have to lie and hide to join military and are excluded from many groups or harassed. What sports people have felt comfortable coming out? Homophobia is higher on many bigots list than race, and remember, we are on every group’s list.
6) People don’t think it is discrimination, or that they are bigots when they hate gays.
I could go on. But this issue is not about gay marriage, it is about not being scared everyday, it is about not feeling hated everyday, it is about simple equality to feel welcome in the U.S.
Are AAs the new Oppressors/Bigots:
It is also an issue for African-Americans. It involves denying one group civil rights on one hand, and then saying civil rights should be equal for all on the other.
HIV and D-Low:
Talk to Savage again, being a sex advise guy, he may want to give you some numbers on HIV and the Down-Low factor. If people are not comfortable coming out in the African-American community, how will they be comfortable telling about their HIV or even getting tested.
Religion issue:
Jesus preached love and not hate. Read up, don’t let someone tell you what Jesus said, read it, and you will find more passages that tell you to love and treat others with respect. Jesus also makes a comment to ignore Leviticus when he talks about what is an abomination or not, and Jesus says that it doesn’t matter either way you can still go to Heaven.
Conclusion:
If the only thing you take away is that gay Bayard Rustin helped make the civil rights movement successful, then maybe you will be able to justify not denying us our rights.
197
Homosexuals would have people believe that all they want is the same rights as heterosexuals have but they already do. Homosexuals have the EXACT SAME right to enter into a marriage with someone of the opposite sex as heterosexuals do. Period! I believe they call that equal rights.
Prop 8 and similar measures want to make a new "right" that did not exist before. One to be able to marry a person of the same sex. That is a new right that people in America don't have (but in one state now?) and obviously the majority of voters do think it is needed either.
If homosexuals were honest about what they were trying to accomplish the reaction might be different.
Prop 8 and similar measures want to make a new "right" that did not exist before. One to be able to marry a person of the same sex. That is a new right that people in America don't have (but in one state now?) and obviously the majority of voters do think it is needed either.
If homosexuals were honest about what they were trying to accomplish the reaction might be different.
198
Does anyone else think it sounds like PINTS has a big dick to contend with....??? Maybe her straight guy ought to be forced to undergo penis reduction surgery. Would be justice if he voted for Prop 8.
199
There is nothing Equal Under the Law about Propositon 8; it is Jim Crowe for gays...in one state you are defined one way and in another you are denied rights/definitions acknowledged elsewhere.
It's wrong. Was it wrong in Nazi Germany to write laws restricting Jews.
Here's a list of German laws passed under the Nazis that restrict Jews.
Only people of German blood or racially related blood can be German
citizens. (Jews were reduced to "state members", unable to vote).
Jews are not allowed to wave the German flag.
Jews are forbidden to marry people of German blood or to have sex with
them. Also, German girls are not allowed to work as domestic servants
in Jewish houses.
By a "Jew" it was meant anyone who had even a single Jewish grandparent.
If he would baptize it wouldn't help; the emphasis was definitly on race
and not religion. In that, the Nazis "surpassed" classical antisemitism,
which considered converted Jews to be equal to Christians.
Later, additional laws were passed and Jews were removed from the education systems, meaning that Jewish children were not allowed to study in ordinary schools but in special "Jewish schools". Ditto for Jewish teachers - they could teach only at the Jewish schools.
October 29 1935: Jews are not allowed to work as pharmacists.
July 25 1938: Jews are not allowed to work as physicians.
Jews are removed from the association of art historians.
September 27 1938: Jews are not allowed to work as lawyers.
May 4 1939: Jews are not allowed to rent property.
May 11 1939: Jews are not allowed to work in the travel agency business.
And...it all started with one silly law.
More...
It's wrong. Was it wrong in Nazi Germany to write laws restricting Jews.
Here's a list of German laws passed under the Nazis that restrict Jews.
Only people of German blood or racially related blood can be German
citizens. (Jews were reduced to "state members", unable to vote).
Jews are not allowed to wave the German flag.
Jews are forbidden to marry people of German blood or to have sex with
them. Also, German girls are not allowed to work as domestic servants
in Jewish houses.
By a "Jew" it was meant anyone who had even a single Jewish grandparent.
If he would baptize it wouldn't help; the emphasis was definitly on race
and not religion. In that, the Nazis "surpassed" classical antisemitism,
which considered converted Jews to be equal to Christians.
Later, additional laws were passed and Jews were removed from the education systems, meaning that Jewish children were not allowed to study in ordinary schools but in special "Jewish schools". Ditto for Jewish teachers - they could teach only at the Jewish schools.
October 29 1935: Jews are not allowed to work as pharmacists.
July 25 1938: Jews are not allowed to work as physicians.
Jews are removed from the association of art historians.
September 27 1938: Jews are not allowed to work as lawyers.
May 4 1939: Jews are not allowed to rent property.
May 11 1939: Jews are not allowed to work in the travel agency business.
And...it all started with one silly law.
200
Keep up the protests. Keep up putting pressure on the Mormon church. Boycott all Mormon businesses and boycott all known supporters of Prop 8.
www.boycottmormonbusiness.com
www.boycottmormonbusiness.com
201
Can you read this,
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/th…
And then track down that conservative &^*% and rip him a new one.
Thanks,
Mark
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/th…
And then track down that conservative &^*% and rip him a new one.
Thanks,
Mark
202
I'm a straight boomer woman who wholeheartedly supports the rights of gays to marry or do anything else they want to, for that matter. I don't see how it harms the "institution of marriage", nor do I think that it would open the doors for the "zoo" crowd to marry their dogs and donkeys. The Prop 8 failure is a minor setback. Eventually, all the dogmatic fear-mongering old guard will die and we'll have a brand new liberal, accepting and enveloping world to live in. I hope I live long enough to see it. Blessings to all of us.
204
Hey Savage,
Did you check this article out in the Advocate/gaywired?
http://www.gaywired.com/Article.cfm?ID=2…
In a previous post, about 8 above this, I sent a copy of my comments to D.L. Hughley concerning a correlation between AIDS/HIV and the 70% vote for Prop 8 in the African American community.
The idea that gays have to hide and are looked down upon in the African -American community more than in others, appears to be a big reason why HIV may be higher in that community. If gays can't come out, how will anyone feel comfortable talking about HIV, bi-sexuality, or the down-low factor.
I do understand that this may also be because of the "joke" or excuse that many African-American's can't find a condom to fit, they are "too tight". Well either way they better start having safer sex and be willing to open up about the "Down-Low Factor" or they will continue to be the largest group suffering from HIV (percentage wise, within their community).
Comment? What do you think?
Did you check this article out in the Advocate/gaywired?
http://www.gaywired.com/Article.cfm?ID=2…
In a previous post, about 8 above this, I sent a copy of my comments to D.L. Hughley concerning a correlation between AIDS/HIV and the 70% vote for Prop 8 in the African American community.
The idea that gays have to hide and are looked down upon in the African -American community more than in others, appears to be a big reason why HIV may be higher in that community. If gays can't come out, how will anyone feel comfortable talking about HIV, bi-sexuality, or the down-low factor.
I do understand that this may also be because of the "joke" or excuse that many African-American's can't find a condom to fit, they are "too tight". Well either way they better start having safer sex and be willing to open up about the "Down-Low Factor" or they will continue to be the largest group suffering from HIV (percentage wise, within their community).
Comment? What do you think?
206
i suggest we all get together a proposition for california voters to ban mormonism.
i'll bet we can get 51 percent of the people to 'eliminate' their 'rights' just like they did to gays...
http://apocalyptickiwi.wordpress.com/200…
i'll bet we can get 51 percent of the people to 'eliminate' their 'rights' just like they did to gays...
http://apocalyptickiwi.wordpress.com/200…
207
OK, maybe this is a stupid question...
How do they know who voted for what? ie, how do they know 70% of black voters voted yes? My ballot didn't have a race/gender/age question. Is this a guesstimate? It confuses me.
How do they know who voted for what? ie, how do they know 70% of black voters voted yes? My ballot didn't have a race/gender/age question. Is this a guesstimate? It confuses me.
208
As a straight guy who is very excited about the Obama win and who is also very much in favor of equal marriage and other rights for the gay community, I'd like to reassure gay men and women everywhere that you aren't alone in this. The march of history favors the expansion of rights, and this country is moving in the same direction on gay marriage that it was moving when interracial marriage bans were made illegal. The civil rights movement for African-Americans maved ahead in fits and starts, suffering reverses before ultimate victory was achieved. I think that perspective may help in seeing the Prop 8 vote as a significant, yet temporary, setback that will not stop progress on this issue.
209
I'm a straight male who is in favor of gay rights.
However, I'm appalled and disgusted at the vitriol, prejudice, and hate being directed by gay activists toward the Mormon church. The Mormons exercised their first amendment rights. They won this vote, we lost. This happens in America.
Why aren't gay activists sending envelopes with white powder to mosques or buring Korans instead of the Book of Morman. One reason: the Mormons are already a malgined religion so they are easy to pick on. Some of the comments on this board are chillingly intolerant. Some of you seem to be advocating making a Matthew Shephard like example out of a Mormon. The people disappointed by the outcome of the Prop 8 measure need avoid becoming radical bigots.
Remember MLK and Gandhi? Non-violent protest is the way to assert equality, not violence and hate.
Peace, love, and patience.
However, I'm appalled and disgusted at the vitriol, prejudice, and hate being directed by gay activists toward the Mormon church. The Mormons exercised their first amendment rights. They won this vote, we lost. This happens in America.
Why aren't gay activists sending envelopes with white powder to mosques or buring Korans instead of the Book of Morman. One reason: the Mormons are already a malgined religion so they are easy to pick on. Some of the comments on this board are chillingly intolerant. Some of you seem to be advocating making a Matthew Shephard like example out of a Mormon. The people disappointed by the outcome of the Prop 8 measure need avoid becoming radical bigots.
Remember MLK and Gandhi? Non-violent protest is the way to assert equality, not violence and hate.
Peace, love, and patience.
210
For PINTS, some things to consider about vaginal intercourse from someone who has also dealt with painful intercourse. There are a number of factors that can contribute to the quality of sensation for women. when we're more aroused our cervix retracts creating more room. For a lot of us this requires some kind of direct stimulation to the clitoris, G spot, or other areas of pleasurable sensitivity which can vary wildly from woman to woman. I found that insisting that I get off before starting intercourse made a HUGE difference and turned a painful experience into a pleasant one.
Since neither of you have had other partners you might not realize how varied the size and shape of both male and female sexual organs can be. Is he Cockzilla? Do you need to experiment with more shallow or gentle penetration? Sometimes people just don't physically fit well.
Another thing to be aware of is that pain frequently accompanies some kind of inflammatory condition, thus intercourse often hurts when you have a yeast infection or BV. Checking these things out through a medical exam could be very helpful.
If it isn't an issue of lack of stimulation, infection, or an extreme difference in shape, then you might look into other inflammatory conditions that can impact the vaginal tract. We have mucosal tissue lining our sinuses, intestines, bladder, vaginal tract etc., and sometimes when these tissues get inflamed in one area the other areas will also have an inflammatory response. You might have a food allergy that is causing this, systemic candida, or some other stimulus that your body is reacting to. A naturopath could handle this diagnosis better than a regular doctor, but I'd rule out the other possibilities before investigating something so complicated and life changing as these conditions.
Good luck!
More...
Since neither of you have had other partners you might not realize how varied the size and shape of both male and female sexual organs can be. Is he Cockzilla? Do you need to experiment with more shallow or gentle penetration? Sometimes people just don't physically fit well.
Another thing to be aware of is that pain frequently accompanies some kind of inflammatory condition, thus intercourse often hurts when you have a yeast infection or BV. Checking these things out through a medical exam could be very helpful.
If it isn't an issue of lack of stimulation, infection, or an extreme difference in shape, then you might look into other inflammatory conditions that can impact the vaginal tract. We have mucosal tissue lining our sinuses, intestines, bladder, vaginal tract etc., and sometimes when these tissues get inflamed in one area the other areas will also have an inflammatory response. You might have a food allergy that is causing this, systemic candida, or some other stimulus that your body is reacting to. A naturopath could handle this diagnosis better than a regular doctor, but I'd rule out the other possibilities before investigating something so complicated and life changing as these conditions.
Good luck!
212
Maybe PINTS is just not ready for intercourse yet. They should do everything Dan suggests. Get to know each others bodys and have fun. However, they should wait to have intercourse until she really, really wants to.
As for the right stealing bs going on...I don't get it.
Does this make all those marriages non-valid? Like they didn't happen at all?
How can this happen?
Is the US government going to have some kind on return fund to repay the expence of all the marriages that they decided to end?
I'm a Canadian. I would like to invite everyone who wants to be free to pack your shit and come be a Canadian too.
As for the right stealing bs going on...I don't get it.
Does this make all those marriages non-valid? Like they didn't happen at all?
How can this happen?
Is the US government going to have some kind on return fund to repay the expence of all the marriages that they decided to end?
I'm a Canadian. I would like to invite everyone who wants to be free to pack your shit and come be a Canadian too.
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