Savage Love - Columns - Savage Love - Dan Savage - The Stranger, Seattle's Only Newspaper

1

I had a friend who raped a girl in a very similar fashion to the bastard in the first letter. If it's any consolation, DREAD, even if the prosecution was eventually dropped, once we heard about it we shunned him like he had his ears clipped, his face branded and there was an 'A' on his shirt.

His friends at the party wondered where he went and why he was gone so long. Your friends probably wondered the same thing. There's a story there and if he isn't charged, he should at least be shamed.

Also, that sort of passive-aggressive rape-but-hey-not-really-okay-its-really-rape shit is a sign of a really, really weak person. A gonzo fuckball would just rape you, not try and con and wheedle you into it. Inside he's soft like mush and I guarantee you can get away with slugging him full in the face the next time you see him.

Posted by rey raton on January 6, 2009 at 3:24 PM · Report

2

SECONDED on the slugging. How bout a good knee to the jewels!!? ...Not that any rapist's testicles could be considered anything better than dogshit.

Posted by Erin on January 6, 2009 at 3:30 PM · Report

3

I love you Dan, but I think the words "police" or "cops" or "beat the motherfer to death" were not nearly as close to the top of the first response as needed.

Posted by Auel on January 6, 2009 at 3:33 PM · Report

4

If I were the current boyfriend I'd probably react the same way...what, do you let anyone fuck you because they want to? So, anyone who you've ever slept with in the past can just claim you whenever they want? I suggest that the current Boyfriend move on and find someone who is faithful.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 6, 2009 at 3:35 PM · Report

5

In Bee movie, which sucked, there was a funny exchange about whether to attend the funeral of another bee that had stung a squirrel...one bee reminded the other "everyone knows that if you sting you die, you don't waste it on a squirrel"

Sorry, I feel the same way about unsafe sexual practices.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 6, 2009 at 3:39 PM · Report

6

I'd also say tell the cops. Yeah, even if it never goes anywhere, get it on the records, get him fingerprinted and mug shot, let him feel like shit. And if it's on record, then if he rapes again in the future, he'll be more likely to see real jail time too.

Posted by Urgutha Forka on January 6, 2009 at 3:53 PM · Report

7

If I was DREAD's boyfriend, I'd feel torn to pieces that I wasn't able to protect her from being raped by her ex. Avoidance of that guilt could be subconsciously motivating him to blame her, instead. So, when DREAD confronts her boyfriend, she may want to throw that on the table -- sort of a "You know, nobody blames you that you couldn't be there at that moment. I don't blame you, it's not your fault. Just like it isn't mine. Just so you know." And/or "You need to separate out whatever it is that is blocking you from understanding that this really happened, and was really rape, so that you can do the right thing and support me now."

Posted by chivalrous on January 6, 2009 at 4:09 PM · Report

8

psilly, girls cant stop guys from raping them. She didnt let him. He overpowered her when she was more vulnerable than usual. No matter how many years of martial arts a girl can take, any fat fuck off the street can still out muscle her and rape her. You're a bastard for being so thoughtless that you cant understand that. Fuck you.

Posted by gator765 on January 6, 2009 at 4:30 PM · Report

9

Dread, hell yes there's something you can say to your current boyfriend, i.e. "Listen, you stupid bastard, I was fucking RAPED, I'm hurting, and for you to blame me and make me feel worse about myself is unacceptable. I never want to see your ugly ass again. GO FUCK YOURSELF, DICKSMACK!"

Then go to a therapist, and figure out why you have so little respect for yourself that you'd have been with one guy who ended up date raping you, not fight back while he's doing it, and then beg forgiveness from another who blames you for GETTING RAPED.

Posted by ferretrick on January 6, 2009 at 4:35 PM · Report

10

She was kind of asking for it though wasn't she?

Posted by mrclean on January 6, 2009 at 4:41 PM · Report

11

I agree with Psilly, she never should have stung that squirrel.

Wait, WHAT?

Posted by ioduae on January 6, 2009 at 4:42 PM · Report

12

Being afraid of confrontation because you used to have a good relationship with someone is an excuse to be raped? Sorry, this woman let this man have sex with her, she could have stopped him if she had tried, she didn't because he was her ex. She wouldn't have let some stranger do that to her, she let this man fuck her...

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 6, 2009 at 4:43 PM · Report

13

I know a girl who said the same thing happened to her...she was dating me at the time and she went home with some guy and they fucked. She said she said no over and over, and he just did it anyway (how'd they end up on the ground with her pants off?)

One day I tickled her and she hurt me really badly. She explained that she just hated to be tickled and couldn't help it.

Hmmm, so being tickled is worse than being raped? If she had done what she did to me to that guy trying to have sex with her, he wouldn't have.

So, whatever.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 6, 2009 at 4:48 PM · Report

14

DREAD also ought to know, really know, the benefits of saying "you're raping me" in these blurred-lines encounters. Because if you decide in the moment that it is, in fact, rape, and say so, he's much more likely to be prosecuted successfully, a boyfriend is much more likely to see it as a clear-cut violation, and you will at the very least have the personal knowledge that you called rape, rape.

If you don't, on the other hand, then somebody could be persuaded that you weren't entirely sure, in the moment, if it was rape -- only to decide afterward that it was, perhaps with the blessing of a sex advice columnist. And while this hesitation is both frequent and understandable, it can complicate the situation for both prosecutors and boyfriends.

After all, if you didn't say rape in the moment because you couldn't be sure it was really rape, the boyfriend can be left to wonder whether and to what extent you offered your consent.

(Sadly, I think the very force of the word prevents women from saying it, not just to avoid offending would-be rapists with the verbal nuke that is saying "rape" -- but also because women would rather think, no, I'm not actually being raped, then say yes, this horrible thing is happening to me and it's nothing but rape. Problem is, since rape is about consent, anything less than rape implies some measure of willing consent.)

Posted by MSM on January 6, 2009 at 4:56 PM · Report

15

Psilly, I must say, you seem to have no understanding of the situation she was in. Someone more faithful? She was being faithful. She didn't have sex with him; he raped her. Those are entirely different things. She didn't consent to it. Reading what you said was like a slap in the face, and I think that you should rethink your attitude toward rape. Victim-blaming is disgusting.

DREAD, I think that you need to try one more time to talk with your boyfriend about this. If he really can't understand that it wasn't your fault -- and it *was not your fault* -- then he isn't worth it.

Tell everyone you know about what your ex did. I won't lie; there will be people who won't believe you, or who will blame you. But others will realize you're telling the truth, and they can help support you and shame the jerk who did this to you.

If you need more help, try Scarleteen(.com). I talked about my abuse experiences there, and it really helped me. Good luck healing, and I hope that either your boyfriend realizes his mistake, or you find someone who actually deserves you and will help you through therapy, like mine did.

Best of luck.
M

Posted by M on January 6, 2009 at 4:59 PM · Report

16

I completely agree with Urgutha Forka - file charges and have this piece of shit go through the system - photoed, fingerprinted, the whole nine yards.

Posted by mbc on January 6, 2009 at 5:01 PM · Report

17

Looking over my post, I want to say that ideas like "the extent" or ''the degree" of somebody's consent really doesn't matter. In the end, there's either consent or there's rape. But a lot of people confronted with making a judgment won't want to see it as so cut-and-dry.

Posted by MSM on January 6, 2009 at 5:01 PM · Report

18

Psilly, in regard to your sooner comment, there is a huge difference. You were tickling her, and she stopped you. Hitting you to get you to stop won't cause a potential repercussion like the fear of further assault, or of you actively hurting her because she won't accept your tickling.

While being assaulted, the other person has serious control over the victim. There's a serious element of fear, and, even if the victim is physically capable of stopping them, they're often rendered powerless by fear of being hurt worse, as well as by the societal conditioning that says we aren't allowed to say no, and we have to play coy to get attackers to stop.

The two situations aren't comparable. I hope you learn that before you get involved with anyone. You really need to learn about what consent is.

Posted by M on January 6, 2009 at 5:05 PM · Report

19

Thanks Psilly Cybin, you're a doll. I hope you're never in a situation like mine, so that you never have to experience the same fear, depression, pain, and confusion that I feel. I hope you never have to drive home crying and I hope you don't have to stop on the way home to throw up because you are so sickened. I hope you don't have to take 4 scalding hot showers the next day and scrub your skin until it's bright red and still feel dirty.

Cunt.

And to everyone else, thank you also (seriously)--I've since discussed the situation at length with my boyfriend. He explained to me that his anger was directed towards the ex, not me. He's angry that another guy touched me, not that I "let" him. He's still sad, and so am I, but he no longer blames me for what happened to me.

I also kind of confronted the ex. As you might have gathered, I'm pretty non-confrontational, but I told him that I was disgusted with the situation and with him, and that I didn't want to hear from him or see him ever again. He made some half-assed apology. Whatever, it's starting to move behind me, so I'm satisfied.

Posted by DREAD on January 6, 2009 at 5:06 PM · Report

20

Oh, Psilly Cybin is a boy. Then I hope one day you never have a daughter or a sister or a mother who has to go through what I went through. Fuck you. Your girlfriend didn't deserve an ass like you. You seem like the kind of prick who will be destined to loneliness for the rest of your life because you are so chronically lacking in empathy.

Posted by DREAD on January 6, 2009 at 5:11 PM · Report

21

DREAD, I'm really glad that you and your boyfriend have worked some things out. It's painful to be blamed by someone you really care about.

I hope that you keep healing. I'm sorry that this happened to you, really. I've been through an unhealthy relationship, and several of my friends have been raped. I know how you must have felt. It gets better with time, though, really. If you're getting the right help, at least.

If you need to talk to someone, try to find a good therapist. I'd offer to talk as just a normal person, but I know that won't be enough. Try to find a really good therapist, though, not like the first one I found. Don't be afraid to change therapists if it doesn't work out.

I hate confrontations, too, by the way.

Good luck,
M

Posted by M on January 6, 2009 at 5:21 PM · Report

22

As someone who was in the situation when my girlfriend was date raped on a drunken evening on her girls night, I actually didn't get it either. She had a hard time admitting she was raped, and I had to ask her why the hell she slept with the guy to only get some vacant tearful responces.

The reassurance I got back was that if it was a consentual momment of passion, I wouldn't have heard about it, doesn't exactly help my cynicism, but it did help me realize (eventually) that she was really really hurting and felt violated. And me, I felt helpless and hurt by the whole thing to. That I couldn't find this guy and beat the living shit out of him (she wouldn't tell me who or anything about him which was probably for the best).

Cut the guy some slack, let it settle in, and let this be some guy sensitivity training. Also, if possible, put the training wheels back on the relationship and get out of the serious stage. Go back to the "dating" phase and see if you fall for each other all over again.

But in all honesty, I think both parties need some perspective and time alone ... Shit like this doesn't help anyone trust. Try to take consolation in that the only thing that is worth receiving from a woman is something freely given.

Posted by been there, done that, FUCK does it suck on January 6, 2009 at 5:21 PM · Report

23

I'm sure DREAD has learned now how her politeness and desire to always keep the peace has cost her something no one should ever have to experience. But I guess one important question is what she feared would happen if she did manage to scream at him and say "get the fuck off me." was she afraid that he would force himself harder on her? or that their relationship would be worse and he'd hate her, but still go away. Dan is right. Female conditioning for girls to always be nice is really harmful and we have to reverse it. And yeah, even if this guy can't get charged, shame him publicly for sure. It will damage his life hugely, and maybe force him out of town, but the damage of letting men get away with rape is far worse.

Posted by Sharni on January 6, 2009 at 5:27 PM · Report

24

Oh yeah DREAD good job!

Oh yeah, the emotional rollar coaster of make up-break up high emotion sex doesn't make the situation easier ... if anything it sometimes makes more difficult to let go of the pain.

Not to say abstain from sex, but just avoid the situations where make up sex is going to be the SOLE focus of dating (everything in moderation)

Do like a lot of light hearted open to the public stuff, less pillow talk and more batting cages, skiing, hiking, whatever. Physical Activity helps guys get over this stuff better, perhaps give you a better level of intimacy and you won't pick at the scab so much.

Posted by been there, done that, FUCK does it suck on January 6, 2009 at 5:29 PM · Report

25

Dan, I love you, but are you out of your mind?!?!?!?! TELL THIS GIRL TO CALL THE POLICE, NOW!! No one, even an ex-boyfriend when you were drinking, has to right to assault someone. Call the cops. Call the cops. Call the cops. Call the cops.

Posted by Cameron Johnson on January 6, 2009 at 5:45 PM · Report

26

There's a boy/girl discrepancy when it comes to gray-area rape and the element of force. Simply put, the amount of "persuasion" it would take to make an average guy have sex with someone he doesn't want to-- particularly if the guy is straight and the attacker is male-- is much larger than the amount of persuasion it takes to overcome the average girl. I'm not talking about the fact that most guys are stronger than most girls. I mean that most guys are willing to endure a lot more physical punishment and confrontation before succumbing to rape than most girls, in large part due to the desires pounded into girls' heads that Dan pointed out.

So current boyfriend is thinking something along the lines of "were I in that situation, there's no way that I would let someone else have sex with me just to avoid a confrontation. Therefore, someone who capitulates in that situation must have wanted to have sex on some level. Therefore, my girlfriend somewhat cheated on me." The current boyfriend thinks this way because *he's a boy.* The proper state of mind is "Were *a girl* in that situation..." In fact, that's the whole reason the law was changed from "reasonable man" to "reasonable person."

Current boyfriend isn't necessarily being a dick; he's just unaware how the combination of genetics and socialization conditions boys and girls to behave differently, on average. And armed with this incorrect information, he's concluded that his girlfriend cheated on him. Current boyfriend isn't malicious; he's just dumb.

I think current boyfriend needs an education in these behavioral differences. If he's unwilling to change his attitude after that-- or if he's unwilling to see that his attitude even needs adjusting-- *then* kick his ass to the curb.

More...

Posted by Reasonable Person on January 6, 2009 at 5:51 PM · Report

27

I could have written the third letter, except my friend was avowedly straight, was a total player with women, and used to make lots of jokes about what I did between the sheets (I've been happily out since I was, oh, 15). He then came to me for sympathy and advice after becoming seropositive. It turned out that for years he'd been cruising the internet looking for guys to anonymously fuck him bareback. I think I gave him plenty of support, but frankly not much sympathy-- I was angry at him for being so stupid. He later complained about how I didn't seem broken up at his news. Well, I wasn't broken up-- scared for him, yes, worried about him yes, pissed as hell at him, oh yes.

Posted by BasketBoy on January 6, 2009 at 5:51 PM · Report

28

Guess I should have read all the comments before responding. I take back what I said about current boyfriend being dumb. :)

Posted by Reasonable Person on January 6, 2009 at 5:58 PM · Report

29

About the difference between being raped and tickled - she hurt me, someone she said she loved, because I tickled her and it was her involuntary response - whereas she let some stranger have sex with her and risked getting infected with AIDS, because she was afraid to bother her girlfriend who was in the other room getting it on with his friend, by stopping him.

So, in the end, part of it is about judgment and decisions, made, not made. Reread her letter. "I was afraid of a confrontation because he and I have been friendly since we broke up."

Yeah, don't want to risk upsetting the rapist ex-boyfriend....maybe that would ruin their great "relationship".

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 6, 2009 at 6:17 PM · Report

30

Current Boyfriend is just fine, its the girlfriend with the rapist-ex-boyfriend who has the problem... and its asking Dan Savage about what to do in this situation, that, people, is all the evidence you need to know that this girl is an idiot and her current boyfriend should take off.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 6, 2009 at 6:32 PM · Report

31

"I figured the easiest way to get out of this situation was to let him finish."
That's consent.

Posted by Bottom Line on January 6, 2009 at 6:33 PM · Report

32

The boyfriend isn't upset that his girlfriend was raped - she was put in a position where her only choices were an unwanted confrontation and unwanted sex, and that's not her fault. He's upset that his girlfriend chose the sex, and he has every right to be. And were I him, I'd dump DREAD and find a girlfriend who would rather have the confrontation than the sex - and not so much because of faithfulness, but mainly because I find the kind of woman who would rather avoid confrontation than stand up for herself to be incredibly unattractive.

Posted by A Choice Was Made on January 6, 2009 at 6:39 PM · Report

33

She wasn't raped. Her ex boyfriend harrassed her into it. Why didn't she yell out for her friends in the party? Because she made a choice - she DECIDED that the way she wanted to resolve the situation was to go along with him. She'd slept with him before - and for whatever reason, she decided to just do it again - not because she was fearful of further physical assault, but just to get out of an uncomfortable situation.

He assaulted her, but she eventually consented to the sexual act. It wasn't rape - it was a bad choice on her part. Her boyfriend is right to upset with her behavior.

Posted by been there on January 6, 2009 at 6:41 PM · Report

34

You know, its sad that we resort to "socialization" to explain someone's behavior when they can't take care of themselves, but would consider the same explanation for say, oh, thinking homosexuality is wrong, is well, wrong.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 6, 2009 at 6:42 PM · Report

35

Just like DREAD, whenever I want to avoid causing a "confrontation" (esp with friends), I lie on my back, spread my legs, protest gently (optional), and let them do me...

WTF people?! She was raped? C'mon!

Posted by Can't Rape the Willing on January 6, 2009 at 7:17 PM · Report

36

First off, THANK YOU, DREAD, for sharing your story. It's a powerful story with a lot in there for people to learn from (even Psilly). One thing I'd like to underline is that the "fear of confrontation," which is present in both males & females, is a force which leads to far more harm, shame, tortured emotions & broken relationships than people realize. This doesn't mean to move to the other extreme, of getting in the face of anyone who bothers you, but to lose the fear so you can handle with grace a wide variety of situations & crises.

The way the economy is, w/ ecological collapse staring us in the face and the right-wing nutjobs ready & willing to hand the country over to a fascist dictator, we're likely looking at some tough times ahead-- the wrong time to harbor fears of confrontation. I'm just sayin'...

Posted by Obi-Wan's Hanky on January 6, 2009 at 7:17 PM · Report

37

The word "seroconverted" would make me giggle if it weren't so ridiculous. It makes it sound as if the individual's blood magically and of its own accord changed into something other than it was. Is the truth too hard to handle? They became infected with HIV. Why is that so hard to say?

Posted by Rick on January 6, 2009 at 7:23 PM · Report

38

All these "she consented" arguments are completely missing the point. Under that logic, a woman who is raped at gunpoint "consented" to intercourse. After all, she could have "decided" to get shot in the head instead. Indeed, there are men and women who would rather die than be raped. Does that mean that everyone who gave in "consented" to sex?

What about a "choice" between forced sex and a four-week hospital stay? A "choice" between forced sex and broken ribs? A "choice" between forced sex and multiple cuts and bruises? The line isn't drawn where *you* would acquiesce; it's where *she* acquiesced. Because a "choice" between two shitty options-- one of which you are being threatened with-- is not a choice at all.

When someone imposes negative consequences on another for not doing what he says, that's called "force." And forcing someone to have sex is rape. Period.

Posted by Reasonable Person on January 6, 2009 at 7:32 PM · Report

39

Dear god Psilly, you JUST WON'T QUIT. Ever think maybe your stupid tickling triggered a PTSD moment that flashed her back to the rape? As for socialization, unless you grew up with a vagina, then you don't know how strong it can be.

Now, for you and Bottom Line, a new concept hitherto unknown to your narrow minds: Acute Stress Reaction. Google it.

Posted by pangursperson on January 6, 2009 at 7:34 PM · Report

40

I think a careful re-read of DREAD's letter is in order. It appears the writer wants the reader to conclude she was raped, though the verbiage and tone say otherwise. She sets the stage, introduces alcohol, makes up a lame excuse to let her ex escort her to the car to get her cell phone (in the middle of a party), says she couldn't get the words out (and then says she did) and that she let him finish. She could pull her pants back up several times but couldn't manage a swift kick to the family jewels? It sounds to me like she thought her boyfriend might have known someone else had been there and made up the "rape" story (fanasy?); writing Savage Love to get sympathy and to legitimize her "rape" story was probably done as an effort to substantiate her claim to her boyfriend.

I have been raped and would not ever paint a scenario such as this young woman's. A former partner of mine claimed he was "date raped" when, in reality, he cheated on me and the story sound much like this young lady's.

Finally, in my opinion, those that say a woman cannot stop a man from raping them are sexist morons.

Posted by Rick on January 6, 2009 at 7:40 PM · Report

41

ding-ding-ding

ferretrick wins best answer!

Posted by Mana Tlarge on January 6, 2009 at 8:01 PM · Report

42

As someone who has been assulted, I would like to offer my two cents:

If you keep saying no, keep pulling your pants back up, and keep asking him to stop, IT IS RAPE.

The fact that she finally stopped fighting does not mean she asked for it or wanted sex with the guy.

When I was assulted, I was too terrified to hardly speak. It felt unreal and I distanced myself from the reality of the rape. Its not that I didn't want to stand up for my self, I was just too horrified to be fully present in the moment.

I know from experience how unreal and horrifying it can be to call someone you know and once cared for a 'rapist'.

There is a difference between consent and being too overwhelmed to continue fighting.

Posted by shellgirl on January 6, 2009 at 8:05 PM · Report

43

I think we should rename rape to YuckFuck or something. Because when a guy is being all rapey that word is the last that comes to mind. It's like yuck he wants to fuck me. Then later society calls it rape. That way if we are supposed to call some code word (because No won't suffice for you dickheads) then we can say "me want no yuck fuck" and maybe you will get how disgusting you are.

And also, psilly if you tickled me I would cut your nuts off. So bring it you fucking loser.

Posted by blanche do bite on January 6, 2009 at 8:07 PM · Report

44

Oh God, I am so on board with Psilly. Before anyone accuses me of furthering the patriarchy, victim-blaming, etc. etc., I am a girl who was raped pretty awfully when I was 14. And I fucking HATE when girls get retroactively "confused" about consent. DREAD's letter -- and her responses in the comments -- are just defensive, pathetic attempts to rationalize her cheating (albeit passive cheating) to herself and her poor boyfriend.

The problem with giving credence to the phrase "gray rape" is that situations like this, some chick giving in to the "force" used by an asshole, aggressive ex, diminish trauma like mine and those of my friends, who have actually experienced real rape.

Posted by 11:11 on January 6, 2009 at 8:17 PM · Report

45

I hate the excuse that a girl can be "asking for it" No matter how drunk. Seriously doesn't everyone know by now that No means no and anything you do after that is RAPE!?!?

Posted by Kate on January 6, 2009 at 8:32 PM · Report

46

Dr. Leonard Sawisch once said, "you can never hope to get out of a situation unless you take some responsibility for being in that situation." DREAD let me ask you, would your actions have been different if you knew that he was HIV positive? Would they have been different if he was a stranger you had just met at the party? You said he pushed you against the car not inside the car. You were outside. You have a voice. Why were you so scared of hurting his feelings when he wasn't concerned about yours?

Before you say it, I'm not blaming the victim; I trying to keep you from being one. For whatever reason you made the decision not to scratch his face, grab his nuts and twist, or drop to the ground and kick like there's no tomorrow. From your own description you didn't even forcefully push him away.

Take your power back. Know that you made some decisions and next time you can make different decisions. You are not a perpetual victim. He was a jerk and totally wrong for not listening to your protests. To his defense, in your own words you only gave him "...meek 'nos' and 'I can'ts.' I was afraid of a confrontation because..."

(I don't say this to be mean but meek "I can't" is different from forceful "I don't want to!")

You knew at the time you could have said, "Stop! Get the fuck off of me!" But didn't. All I'm saying is own it. You made whatever decision you felt you had to in order to get out of the situation. You didn't deserve what happened but you have the power to stop it next time under similar situation.

I agree with Dan that you write the jerk rapists (do not call or see him). Let him know that he knows what he did and that you went to doctor to collect the evidence in case you ever do decide to press charges. In some states you have a 5-year statute of limitations to press charges. I would add that he probably want's to get checked because your exam revealed something. Leave it at that.

Sorry you had to endure this but please don't let it define you.

More...

Posted by B. Pauerfol on January 6, 2009 at 8:37 PM · Report

47

abso-fucking-lutely not, mrclean.

Posted by Jules on January 6, 2009 at 8:46 PM · Report

48

I find it so deflating, that even in 2009, we have people like psilly and mrclean. "She was asking for it?" I don't remember reading in her letter the words "fuck me now" I believe they were NO and I CANT! What part of that do you deuchebags not get? Do you really think, that if she said no 9 times, that on the 10, she would miraculously change her mind, be uncontrollably turned on by is "charismatic" approach? NO MEANS NO! He obviously had no intention of stopping. The bottom line is she still didn't want to have sex, she just stopped fighting. HE HAD SEX WITH AN UNWILLING PARTNER! That is R-A-P-E!!!

Posted by DISGUSTED W PPL on January 6, 2009 at 8:50 PM · Report

49

Until women stop fearing to speak truth to rapists, rapists will get pleasure from forcing their dicks into women. Don't just confront him; tell every woman you know who knows him. The public outing of rapists is long overdue.

Posted by toberose on January 6, 2009 at 8:56 PM · Report

50

I'm sure DREAD has learned now how her politeness and desire to always keep the peace has cost her something no one should ever have to experience. But I guess one important question if we are to question to what extent it was or was not rape, and how severe, is what she feared would happen if she did manage to scream at him and say "get the fuck off me." was she afraid that he would force himself harder on her? or that their relationship would be worse and he'd hate her, but still go away. Dan is right. Female conditioning for girls to always be nice is really harmful and we have to reverse it.

Of course, forcing yourself on someone is inexcusable though. And yeah, even if this guy can't get charged because she didn't seem to use all her strength to stop him, she should shame him publicly for sure. It will damage his life hugely, and maybe force him out of town, but the damage of letting men get away with rape is far worse. It starts to become accepted as normal. (scary.

Posted by Sacha on January 6, 2009 at 9:02 PM · Report

51

DREAD, my condolences, no one deserves that. I'm not really great with the comforting words, so I'm just going to say something that no one else has, even Dan Savage: Get yourself tested! You didn't mention a condom and you don't know where he's been. Your emotional health has already been compromised, make sure your physical health doesn't follow suit.

Posted by addiejd on January 6, 2009 at 9:04 PM · Report

52

I'm not so much offended by responses from people like Psilly Cybin and Rick and Can't Rape The Willing as I am horrified that this kind of mentality even exists in the modern world.

I will repeat:

I said "no" multiple times
I tried to push him off me multiple times
I tried to pull my clothes back on when he pulled them off multiple times

And yes, I had been drinking. Whether or not you morons realize it, having sex with a woman who has consumed alcohol--whether you have also consumed alcohol or not--is rape. I wrote to Dan because I respect his opinion. I was humiliated, ashamed, and hurt. I needed advice from someone who knew what he was talking about, so I turned to Dan.

I didn't write to Dan asking him to tell me I was raped. I KNEW when I wrote to him that I had been date raped. I wrote to him, if you fucking read my letter at ALL, to ask if he had any insight as to how to repair things with my current boyfriend. I don't care whether you think I was raped or not. I know, and I feel strongly, that I was assaulted. I know I could have done things to avoid the situation.

I could have not gone to the party. I could have chosen not to drink. I could have chosen not to let the ex walk me to my car--I know all this. But the fact that I did those things does not give him the right to force things upon me, and force he did. He is stronger than me and I was shocked and confused and just wanted everything to be over. Given a choice between succumbing under pressure, or being confrontational and having to leave the party immediately and drive home intoxicated, I chose the former.

Thank you to all the people who sympathize. Your kind comments have made me feel less alone in my situation and less ashamed.

To the rest of you, go to hell.

More...

Posted by DREAD on January 6, 2009 at 9:13 PM · Report

53

No she wasn't asking for it..does the word no mean anything to you?
Having been date raped,the thing you may have to consider is the thought of getting badly beaten, failing to protect oneself physically AND sexually seems the better option at the time. We all have had sex we weren't into,it doesn't seem so bad to imagine.and remember denal is with you in this reality too

Posted by acuteally on January 6, 2009 at 9:18 PM · Report

54

ha! yuck fuck, brilliant. not just the word itself, but it's easy ability to be incorporated into your head in those yucky moments when 'rape' seems an extreme term, whether it can later be classified as that or not. rock!

Posted by realized it was date rape later on January 6, 2009 at 9:20 PM · Report

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11:11 - acknowledging that Dread's experience was traumatic and not consentual does not diminish your own trauma. Not at all.

There are many, many forms of assault. To say that one form is real while another is not is terribly narrow. And hurtful.

You use your own feeling of having your own trauma diminished to justify diminishing another's trauma.

Ouch.

Posted by shellgirl on January 6, 2009 at 9:23 PM · Report

56

For the people arguing that socialization isn't that strong - sorry peeps, I'm here to tell you that it damn sure is.

Women in our society are socialized pretty much from minute one not to make a scene, not to make a fuss, to be the peacemakers, etc. We are taught that we are *not* feminine if we stand up for ourselves. Some of us have parents who get that enough to tell us that's a load of hogwash.

In my case, I was taught to defend myself from loads of crap growing up - but at the same time - yup - you got it - don't make a scene. Don't create a problem. With no defining line of when it's *you* creating a problem. Go ahead and fight racism, but don't get into a fight.

Know what that means? I was an assertive backtalking kid and I was 10 the 1st time I was molested on public transportation. Did I speak up? No. That would have been making a scene. Instead I tried to move away from the guy. (btw, I do blame the bus full of people who could clearly see *something* was wrong and not one single person said anything - more socialization of "don't make a scene" also - but they were adults and I was kid thanks). It ended when I got off the bus. Did I consent all that time? After the several times I moved out from in front of him only to have him move in back of me again? Hell no. I was trying to get away.

Play fight with a friend? Somebody tickling me? Oh, we're having physical contact - you might get chopped in the nuts - but I'm reacting to an actual physical body hurt response. Horrible as it is, rape is more traumatic to the mind than the body. Tickling is gonna make me pee myself any second now and I've got a stitch in my side and it really fucking hurts and I have *no* idea when it's going to end. This asshole on top of me raping me? I think it'll be over when he cums.

Get the picture yet?

And for all of that - after telling my parents about the perv on the bus - my parents talked to me some about self-defense - but you know - 25 years ago, self-defense concepts for women were *just* starting to include the idea that you SPEAK UP. GO AHEAD AND MAKE A SCENE. Not just "fight back if you can." or "get away and call for help if you can" (note the "get away" first part).

In the meantime, there's a lot of creeps on public transpo. I was so proud of myself for figuring out that if I turned sideways and stuck my elbow out, the creep got held at bay. Damn I thought I was slick and taking care of myself. I thought I had it so down, it was *years* before I realized what I should really be doing was looking over my shoulder and loudly asking "Pardon me, would you mind taking your dick outta my ass?"

More...

Posted by Bitten once on January 6, 2009 at 9:28 PM · Report

57

All the armchair quarterbacks who think DREAD "should have known to do such-and-such" might try to walk in her shoes a minute. It's a lot easier to say you'd do something than it is to actually do it. If a burglar broke into your home and you had a gun, would you shoot them? Would you really? It's a lot fucking tougher than you think.

Posted by Urgutha Forka on January 6, 2009 at 9:43 PM · Report

58

Dread -

You are soooo not alone!!

It IS overwhelming and psychologically shocking to have someone you know force themself upon you.

I know how numbing that can be.

And make no mistake, he is the one who forced himself upon you.

I'm so sorry this happened to you.

It took me so long to forgive myself for not taking more preventive action when I was assaulted. I blamed myself for failing to prevent it. I did what I could at the time. As did you.

The rapist is the one who did the deed. Not you. Not your fault.

Take heart in knowing that many of us have been in similar shoes.

Posted by shellgirl on January 6, 2009 at 9:45 PM · Report

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@mrclean - NO, no, fuckwit, she wasn't "asking for it", she was SAYING NO. As in, physically resisting him, opening her mouth and TELLING HIM, verbally, that she DID NOT WANT him in her pants. That is the opposite of "asking for it".

Have you considered suicide? Because, IMO, the world needs way less people like you.

Posted by laura on January 6, 2009 at 9:50 PM · Report

60

toberose:

Why not say, "Until men stop raping women, women will be raped!" It's easy to lay the burden on women to change things isn't it? Maybe women would speak up more if men like Psilly shut their freakin' mouths and practiced some empathy for the opposite gender instead of their own.

DREAD:

Posted by I AM HIM on January 6, 2009 at 9:55 PM · Report

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Dan, I'm seriously pissed off at your answer for question No. 2. I can't believe you of all people gave in and perpetuated that age-old gay gym bunny stereotype.

The little gym bunny fag is upset because his partner put on weight? If so, he's not in the relationship for love or emotion, he's in it for the arm candy.

I'm 37, 6'1'', 180 lbs, naturally thin and semi-muscular because of genetics, and have never had to worry about a weight issue. My partner of almost 6 years isn't, and while he has put on weight since we've been together, I'm still as crazy about him as I was on Day One when we met. And our sex life is STILL great.

That twinky, shallow I-can't-be-with-you-because-you-don't-have-a-gym body shit pisses me off. That's what's wrong with the majority of us gay dudes, too much on looks, not enough on substance.

Posted by txgarrett in Alaska on January 6, 2009 at 9:56 PM · Report

62

She was abused twice ... once by the ex, and a second time by the current one. Current should have trusted her, and gone out and beaten the shit out of the ex, or threatened to.

Posted by makavh on January 6, 2009 at 9:56 PM · Report

63

While I think that DREAD was assualted, violated and wronged... I'm not sure she was Raped. She said she "let him finish" which does imply consent. Sorry, but it does. Also, silence gives consent. If you don't want something, say so. Loudly.

I also think we have the right to discuss what exactly constitutes rape and that this topic should, by no means, be off limit.

I feel sorry for what happened to DREAD and the pain she and her boyfriend are experiencing.

Although, it might have been better if you confronted him about the RAPE, as you see it, than the "situation", as you put it.

Also, as DREAD feels she was raped... she has the moral imperative to report to the police prevent other girls from sharing her experiences: "the same fear, depression, pain, and confusion that I feel. I hope you never have to drive home crying and I hope you don't have to stop on the way home to throw up because you are so sickened. I hope you don't have to take 4 scalding hot showers the next day and scrub your skin until it's bright red and still feel dirty."

Even though you destroyed all the evidence with your showers, it's not to late to file a report.

Posted by ccouoch on January 6, 2009 at 10:20 PM · Report

64

The biggest problem with the first letter? Women's feelings that we cannot rock the boat, don't want to get unfriendly with exes, don't make a scene kind of bullshit. Which is what is really is. Bullshit. Giving in just to give in and not make waves is what keeps ALL women in this society as second class citizens and does the (straight) men a disservice that lulls them into this odd way of thinking. Could she have stopped the rape? Maybe not. But giving in for the reasons above - well, we still have a long way to go. We all have to learn to respect ourselves and not worry so much about what "other people think."

Posted by Lauren on January 6, 2009 at 10:22 PM · Report

65

I call troll. This Bee Movie and tickle shit is irrelevant.

Posted by Rena on January 6, 2009 at 10:25 PM · Report

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Wow, DREAD, you're doing a good job being more confrontational.

"Having sex with a woman who has consumed alcohol--whether you have also consumed alcohol or not--is rape"----> Not true. Forcing yourself on a woman that has been drinking is rape, whether you've been drinking or not.

Posted by ccouch on January 6, 2009 at 10:26 PM · Report

67

yeah mrclean, just like you ask for some fabulous raping every time you get drunk and run into an ex.

Posted by zorro on January 6, 2009 at 10:39 PM · Report

68

I agree with some of the commenters here, even if pressing charges won't get DREAD's rapist in jail, it will a) scare the shit out of him b) make it clear to everyone around that he's a rapist, and c) establish a paper trail with the DA of his behavior. This last one is important: they may decline to press charges when one girl accuses him, but it's a lot harder to disregard allegations by five or six.

Posted by Gay Jewish Hitler on January 6, 2009 at 11:01 PM · Report

69

Regarding the definition of nonconsensuality and rape/assault: Where is the line?

When I was 11 years old, I had the ability to tell right from wrong. I knew when my dad touched my tits that it was wrong. But I was too scared, because of the power he had over me, to say anything about it. I still never told any family members about it. Assorted random exes probably still remember but I have no intention of bringing charges against him.

Now if you can understand the power of superiority that a father holds over a child and the fear instilled as a result, how is it so difficult to understand that an ex-boyfriend could have the same power over a woman? You can call her weak if you like, but she's hardly atypical. The power dynamics here are simply a matter of degree. And everyone has their own breaking point; whether you understand it or not doesn't change its existence.

Just because you would have punched the guy in the nuts doesn't mean she would or should have punched the guy in the nuts. It doesn't mean I would or should have punched my dad in the nuts (I still haven't, 13 years later--though we no longer speak except 1-2x a year).

Posted by Rachel on January 6, 2009 at 11:09 PM · Report

70

Look, I once gave a very persistent guy a handjob so "it would all be over with".

And it was because I liked him and hoped he would call me the next day.

Our little friend in letter #1 is pretending to be weaker than she is. This is bad for ALL WOMEN. When you're in a relationship, you don't let some other guy fuck you just because you "don't like confrontation."

Was the guy an asshole for being so insistent? Of course. But she's an asshole for giving in. If she valued the ex's opinion of her so highly that she was willing to let him fuck her despite the fact that she was in a relationship, she's at the EXTREME end of feminine (or any kind of) weakness, and the new boyfriend is justified, imho, in breaking up with her. She needs some serious therapy. I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone as fucked-up as her either.

Posted by Another Girl's Perspective on January 6, 2009 at 11:15 PM · Report

71

It is dangerous for a survivor to confront someone who has raped them.

Rape is an act of violence, no matter its form. It is not safe to randomly go confronting a violent individual.

Also, even if the police do not press charges, they will still take the report.

It might help the next survivor who reports an attack from the same rapist.

Who knows, there may already be reports on file with the police about this rapist.

Posted by RAINN on January 7, 2009 at 12:10 AM · Report

72

The real difficulty with this gray-area rape situation is that the alleged-rapist was an ex-boyfriend: someone the victim has a past history of consensual sex with. Who knows what their sex life had once been like? Maybe "hard-to-get" was their favorite game or something.

Given that both were drunk, is it not possible he interpreted her half-hearted refusals as just playing "hard to get"? I mean, I'm not saying it wasn't rape, but all these cries of "beat the guy to death and throw his corpse in jail for a million years, the dirty rapist!" are a bit extreme. None of us were there, we don't know how it really went down, from her story I can imagine it playing out quite a few different ways, some which amount to an obvious rape, and some which look just like two former lovers having a guilty, secretive reunion.

And while we're talking about socialization on this board, how about the socialization of MEN? Are men NOT socialized to see women as weak-willed, capricious, and indecisive, desiring strong, persistent mates who will "sweep them off their feet" despite their protestations, that what women WANT is a guy to overpower them a little bit? That if a guy isn't willing to "take charge", he's a wimp and not worth sleeping with? Perhaps DREAD's ex saw himself as Bruce-f'ing-CAMPBELL, demanding some "sugar" from his princess?

And maybe, just maybe, the guy is HORRIFIED to find out that she DIDN'T want him, that her acquiescence was made from a desperate desire for him to be done with her and leave her alone? Think about that, the guilt and self-disgust that comes with knowing you ACCIDENTALLY RAPED someone because you misinterpreted her reactions to your advances?

It's tough, because there ARE women out there who like being "taken" roughly, who get off on saying "no" and "I can't" and having their partner ignore that. People in the throes of passion (men AND women), especially drunk, don't always stop to make sure everything is good. Sometimes you just trust your instincts...and sometimes they're wrong, and a perfectly decent man can suddenly become a RAPIST without meaning to. Rape is rape, but is there really no moral difference between the man who jumps out of the bushes with a knife or a gun and savages a woman in some back alley, and the man who drunkenly misinterprets his drunken ex's apparently-half-hearted acquiescence after several apparently-half-hearted refusals?

More...

Posted by Some Dumbass on January 7, 2009 at 12:31 AM · Report

73

mrclean, please tell me you are not fucking serious. What is this, the 1950s? A woman can go out and get drunk because she has a fucking right to go out and get drunk. She should be able to expect that her friends at a party wont rape her for it. She didn't rape herself. Her asshole ex raped her.

Let me repeat that, HE raped her. The only one to blame for committing the crime is the person who committed the crime aka HIM. We don't say that people who were mugged were 'asking for it' because they walked down the street with a wallet or purse.

Blame the rapist who viciously and relentlessly harassed then raped the drunk girl, not the poor girl who tried her hardest to say no, get him off her, and stop him from hurting her despite being not in complete control of her faculties. The fact that she lost that verbal and physical fight does not mean that she deserves to get raped. It means that she was a victim of a particularly relentless and cruel fucking rapist.

Posted by SarahS on January 7, 2009 at 12:41 AM · Report

74

OFFSA: I would be angry as hell too. Anybody who has been exposed to AIDS education knows that using condoms and limiting sexual partners will help protect them. You should be angry: you're angry because you care about this person. But as a friend you should mix that anger up with empathy (although "understanding" might be impossible). People mess up, usually they do it over and over in the same ways. You probably don't know what made him act that way (self-destructive habits are complicated), and chances are he doesn't either. Good friends will be pissed at you when you act like a dumbass but still be there to hold your hand when the shit hits the fan.

Posted by Scott on January 7, 2009 at 12:48 AM · Report

75

Another girl, don't blame the victim. This isn't Afghanistan! But your mentality would fit in perfectly there. DREAD was caught in a scary and confusing situation that I wouldn't wish on anyone. Her ex was not going to respect her wishes--he forced himself on her.

Posted by nicole on January 7, 2009 at 12:50 AM · Report

76

txgarrett is right. Even if REAM's boyfriend had remained an Adonis, he'd probably be sick of him for some other reason. People don't fall out of love because of weight gain. REAM's just making excuses because he's probably too afraid to say he's feeling bored or restless. Plus, he puts the fault of the breakdown of the relationship on the boyfriend rather than himself. REAM just doesn't want to see himself as the bad guy or the shallow guy.

Posted by nicole on January 7, 2009 at 1:02 AM · Report

77

DREAD, thank you for sharing your story. It reminds me a lot of something that I went through.

Please ignore the assholes, do not read their comments. I recommend therapy and speaking with others who have been through similar situations. (There is a great book, I Never Called it Rape, that you might want to read).

You are NOT alone.

Posted by Be kind to yourself on January 7, 2009 at 1:12 AM · Report

78

God, Psilly, could you be any more of a whiny bitch? "My girlfriend hurt me when I tried to tickle her, WAAAH!" As for your attitude, I think the phrase "an excuse for being raped" says it all. What "excuse" does anybody have to be the victim of a crime?

Bravo, DREAD. And I agree with many other posters here. Throw the book at this guy and make him go through the system. Who knows, you might be helping another woman down the line.

Posted by Laya on January 7, 2009 at 1:15 AM · Report

79

Bottom line – if your mama didn't raise you to know that "no" means no (really it does) then you should be subject to getting arrested, getting processed, getting a record, getting humiliated.

There is a chance that the yuck-fucker didn't know this, never was told (or had male social issues – must be strong, assertive, semi-assoholic, …) - let's play devil's advocate and say this was his first ever slip like this. Give his sorry ass a record to help ensure there won't be a second time.

However, there is an onus on YOU Dread to help make others safe in the future – give him a record and calm his yucky ass down - asap.

PS. Oh and therapy is a must – no joke.

Posted by Fred34 on January 7, 2009 at 1:19 AM · Report

80

In regards to the first letter, there seems more to the story and there are hints to that. "I can't" was used repeatedly and that generally means "I'd like to but...". There are other things in the letter that would lead me to believe that there was a lot more consent than the writer would like to admit. Yes, he was aggressive and he knew she was in a relationship so he's not a great guy but it sounds like a story of a person giving into desire and then trying to come off as a victim to preserve a relationship and the moral high ground. "I never wanted to cheat on him."

Posted by kt on January 7, 2009 at 1:56 AM · Report

81

Leaving aside the "debate" about whether it was rape - um, no means no, actually - let's move onto #3, Mr "I seroconverted".

As Rick says, WTF? Nice way to both disclaim responsibility and dress things up in passive language. He got *infected* with HIV because he didn't take any responsibility for his sexual health. Dan's advice is spot-on.

Posted by Trix on January 7, 2009 at 2:30 AM · Report

82

You know Dan, sometimes I think opening up comments on your columns was a dumb idea. There's enough stupid on the internet without bringing it here.

Posted by Wendy Blackheart on January 7, 2009 at 3:09 AM · Report

83

Well I'm a girl, before we start throwing around 'oh youre a guy your opinion is invalid' as usual.

You werent raped. You let it happen. You had a choice between causing a fuss and letting someone have sex with you. Trying to lump yourself in with women who are forced down, hit, pinned down and have no choice in the matter - who are forced into a situation they can do nothing about - it despicable and overwhelmingly self pitying.

You know what? If you had screamed and fought and kicked him maybe, just maybe, a very tiny maybe, he would have forced himself on you. But the most likely scenario is that this piece of shit person wouldve run off, and you would have attracted attention.

Yes, he deserved to be pulled up for his behaviour. Take whatever route YOU think will help YOU the most. Then deal with the fact you played a role in it too.

Don't try and look to the internet to absolve yourself of the fact that you didn't defend yourself properly. And if it ever happens again, do everything you can to get out of the situation. The physical pain you go through can be on par with the psychological trauma and emotional pain induced by thinking you allowed yourself to be used.

Posted by TJ on January 7, 2009 at 4:37 AM · Report

84

If you're inhibited from saying "no" but don't actually say "no," that's NOT the same thing as saying "no." If you willingly do something you don't want to (for whatever reason), that's not the same as being forced to do something against your will. I don't know what really happened to DREAD--she seems ambiguous on the consent issue, but that could just be the guilt that society teaches her she should feel or just a reluctance to admit to herself that she was raped. If she felt threatened, she was raped. If she really just did it because it was easier and less unpleasant than hurting their friendship and making a scene, then she wasn't (the guy would still win asshole of the year honors, of course). From the letter, I can't tell. So I'm not judging her.

But Dan if you're saying that someone who allows someone to have sex with them when they don't really want to, but without being threatened or extorted, then I am judging you. You're saying that I'm a rapist, that every woman I've ever dated has also raped me, and that every sexually active person I've ever known has raped and been raped. And that's bull.

And, yes, I've been in her situation, but as a child with a pushy and aggressive and manipulative stranger who'd been grooming me for weeks. I didn't want to make a scene, I didn't want him to think I didn't like him because he was black (one of his most effective hooks), and I was just trained to be obedient and not to be rude to adults. And even if I'd said "yes" it would have been rape because I was a child--but even as a child I said "no" before he could manipulate me into being alone with him. If an 11 year old can say "no" when a skilled manipulator is making him feel he's the jerk--conspicuously rude, unfriendly, distrustful, and racist--all the things I was ever taught not to be--then any adult who isn't being forced, threatened, or seriously extorted certainly can, too. Again, I'm judging your words, Dan, not DREAD's action--in the situation she described, she probably felt much more threatened than her letter let on.

More...

Posted by Nonrapist Nonrapee on January 7, 2009 at 5:15 AM · Report

85

Being married to a woman who was raped a couple of months b4 we started dating, i can tell you exactly hoe DREAD's boyfriend feels about not being able to protect her and the anger he has towards the ex. My wife's situation was completly different, she was forcefully raped,held down by 3 punk ass guys, there was no grey area, it was horrible, but shes a strong woman, MY WOMAN. But i wouldnt be so quick to bash the boyfriend b/c he was at first upset with DREAD. Its eithier yes or no. Being drunk or tipsy or not, if she didnt want it, she should have done more to stop it.(her knees could have made a quick visit to Nuts Ville) She was afraid of confronting him, but not afraid of getting raped? Then she doesnt even bother to goto the police. Come on. Then she writes that she "sort of" confronted the ex....bull, there is eitheir 1 or 2 things that should have happen, eithier u get his ass arrested or me being the boyfriend, that ex would have gotten a "nice" visit from me and a couple of friends, and i would have made sure he would think twice b4 ever touching a girl that didnt want to be touched. Bash me if you will, but i know what the fuck im talking about.

Posted by FuckOffYouRapistPig on January 7, 2009 at 5:40 AM · Report

86

This first letter enraged me. He's ANGRY at HER for her rape? Fuck that shit. The ex needs an earful (and I agree that a fist to the junk would be justified) and the current should be dropped. It says a lot about his feelings on consent and "ownership" of partners that he would dare blame her for something that was done to her.

Posted by ks on January 7, 2009 at 5:45 AM · Report

87

Ok, read more comments - am less enraged at the current boyfriend (I'll take DREAD word on his later comments) but am much more so at other posters so quick to dismiss/condemn her. Fuck you, assholes.

DREAD, read "The Gift of Fear" for really good insight on being more assertive and getting away from the conditioning of "be good, don't make waves" that traps women into experiencing the same thing you did. You shit bags who are implying that she asked for it or is just trying to cover something up might want to consider it too (you stupid motherfuckers).

Posted by ks on January 7, 2009 at 6:01 AM · Report

88

mrclean and psilly you both are assholes and idiots. and if thats really how you feel I hope every girl you might date gets the chance to find out how you really feel and you never get the REMOTE chance of being laid again. because if ur condoning that behavior from her ex you’re a pathetic bag of shit. as a victim of sexual assault that was witnessed by others (and no i wasn't drinking or "asking for it") who just stood by and laughed, those who accept such shity behavior are almost as bad as those who engage in it.

And to DREAD, go talk to the cops. even if you can’t get a conviction for the fucker, you might have the chance for every woman who comes in contact with him ever again to hear the rumors of what a piece of shit he is. Also, if you're current bf cant beyond his own feelings to comfort you while you deal with this then dtmf!

Posted by hoosiergirl on January 7, 2009 at 6:33 AM · Report

89

Dear Another Girl's Perspective,

I am not weak. I am not stupid, as other people have said. And Ccouch, it's a lot easier to stand up for yourself when you have the anonymity a computer offers.

How would it change your opinion of things to hear that my current boyfriend has cheated on me, twice? Neither time was he forced by someone who repeatedly ignored his pleas to stop. And neither time did he tell me himself mere hours after the cheating occurred--I had to find out from the girl he cheated on me with months and months later.

I trusted him enough to forgive him. It was difficult, it hurt, but we've moved past it, and now we're working through this. Considering I was understanding enough to forgive him for two acts of indiscretion, perhaps he can find it in his heart to forgive me for BEING RAPED. Maybe now you'll all tell me I'm an idiot for taking him back. Whatever--I'm tired of being judged by strangers who know only a few facts about my life, so this is the last thing I'll be posting here.

Thanks again to the many commenters who've offered kind words. It truly has made me feel a lot better.

Posted by DREAD on January 7, 2009 at 7:14 AM · Report

90

"Asking for it," mrclean? Get a life. Your comment sounds like the typical defense of a garden-variety rapist who thinks that the world revolves around him. Ever hear of the word "entitlement"? Go look it up.

It's clear that DREAD was traumatized, less clear if the incident will result in PTSD. But in either event, her boyfriend's response is nothing less than the psychological term "re-wounding," and that's bad news for the victim.

Posted by Bob on January 7, 2009 at 7:38 AM · Report

91

Wow, how many village idiots have to express themselves about what they consider being faithful... She was rape and this is the end of the discussion...

Posted by Pierre on January 7, 2009 at 7:46 AM · Report

92

only one comment, and this doesn't excuse the rapist, but she was saying "no, i can't" not "no, i don't want to" which almost makes it sound like she wanted to except she didn't want to hurt her boyfriend. That guy is still a dick for raping her though.

Posted by adra on January 7, 2009 at 7:50 AM · Report

93

I appreciate DREAD's response that she doesn't need anyone else to validate her experience. She feels violated by her ex and that's what matters - not in the legal world, but in her personal life. The opinions expressed on this thread about whether or not DREAD was raped are irrelevant.

What we need to think about here is the mindset of a man who continues to pursue a woman after she's said no and who knows she has a boyfriend (so the whole concept that maybe he thought she was just being coy is bullshit). This guy is clearly a CREEP, and I hope for DREAD's sake that she does not excuse this creep's behavior and continue to be his friend.

Believe it or not, it's much easier to excuse the creep's behavior and say it was consensual than to admit that you were raped.

It's scary to think how many men - men like Psilly Cybin and A Choice Was Made - condone the actions of this creep. This indicates to me a serious lack of respect for women. There is a difference between being coy and sexy and rejecting someone by saying no - even once!

Men need to learn to control their sexual urges if a woman even seems slightly uninterested, otherwise you're not respecting the woman or yourself.

The onus is on the man or woman making sexual advances to respect the wishes of the other party. Saying no even once is sufficient to indicate that the sexual advance is unwanted and should be stopped.

Perhaps women sometimes have a difficult time reacting violently during rape because they're in shock and disbelief, because they could never imagine forcing themselves on someone in that way.

Finally, I do believe women need to learn to deal effectively with creeps - rapist and murders - violently (e.g. biting, kicking, screaming, beating) because the reality is that there are a ton of creeps out there (even a few commenting here) and often that will save your life if you're attacked.

DREAD - I'm so sorry for what happened to you and I hope your current boyfriend is supportive of you while you heal. If he's not, kick him to the curb. I sincerely hope you've learned from this experience what a creep your ex is.

More...

Posted by In Solidarity Against Creeps on January 7, 2009 at 8:15 AM · Report

94

Oh yeah, and if you don't know the difference between someone being coy and sexy and someone not wanting to have sex with you, you are probably a creep and should immediately take a step back to think if you've ever violated someone and call that person to apologize. Seriously, it's not fucking rocket science. Have some self respect.

Posted by In Solidarity Against Creeps on January 7, 2009 at 8:21 AM · Report

95

When DREAD goes to the police she should also charge the rapist-ex-boyfriend with exposing himself to her. It's a lot easier to get a conviction and it's a sex crime that will follow him for the rest of his life.

Posted by schweighsr on January 7, 2009 at 8:31 AM · Report

96

DREAD,

You've heard it from others, but I'll add my voice - you aren't alone. And to everyone else who thinks that rape is only when someone is forced down, kicking and screaming, you have absolutely no idea what the fuck you are talking about, or the lengths that the human mind and body will go to in order to protect the self from greater trauma. It's not at all unusual for a victim to "stop resisting" once it become inevitable. Can you imagine how much worse it would hurt if you were physically resisting while some asshole violated your body?

She said no. Could she have said it more forcefully? Probably. But why should she have to? Why wasn't one no, or one push away, or one attempt to redress herself, for fuck's sake, enough of a message for her rapist?

And the idea that just because their previous relationship may have had some aggressive sex is horseshit and just an excuse for people desparately trying to absolve this dick.

Don't blame yourself, even for becoming passive and "allowing" it to happen. You were afraid. Your mind retreated and you stopped fighting physically to protect yourself. That's a completely normal reaction, and doesn't make it consent.

I'm glad things have gotten better for your and your current. I think you need to have whatever contact or lack thereof with your rapist to help you get past this. Take care.

Posted by DCRJ on January 7, 2009 at 8:39 AM · Report

97

Someone who claims to be DREAD just posted saying that her real problem is not with the ex but with the current boyfriend, who cheated on her twice and she forgave him, so why can't HE forgive her I-decided-to-call-it-"rape"?

If this is really DREAD (which I doubt), she's as sick and manipulative as the company she keeps. Have fun playing with your friends in your cesspool. I hope you don't involve the cops, they have enough garbage to deal with.

Posted by Another Girl's Perspective on January 7, 2009 at 8:51 AM · Report

98

"And yes, I had been drinking. Whether or not you morons realize it, having sex with a woman who has consumed alcohol--whether you have also consumed alcohol or not--is rape."

Hetro men and lesbians are rapists if their partner has had a drink?

Posted by I guess I'm a rapist now on January 7, 2009 at 8:51 AM · Report

99

"How would it change your opinion of things to hear that my current boyfriend has cheated on me, twice?"

Sounds like you were getting back at him by having sex with the ex.

Posted by Only heaing one side of the story on January 7, 2009 at 8:52 AM · Report

100

It's clearly not an ideal situation, but I'm not convinced it was rape either. Clearly, any guy who would not stop after repeatedly being told to is a piece of shit. But she does say she "let him". I mean, if I have sex with somebody while *wishing* I could say "stop" but never actually saying it, that's not rape; that's poor willpower.

Posted by blarrrgh on January 7, 2009 at 9:04 AM · Report

101

"No matter how many years of martial arts a girl can take, any fat fuck off the street can still out muscle her and rape her. You're a bastard for being so thoughtless that you cant understand that. Fuck you."

gator765, this may be one of the most dickheaded comments I've ever read on the internet, and that's saying a lot.

Listen, tough guy, I truly hope that someday you get your infantilizing, misogynistic ass beat up by a female. If/when that happens, I want you do know that you have truly earned it.

Posted by jessemoya on January 7, 2009 at 9:34 AM · Report

102

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME "MRCLEAN"?? She was raped. Kill yourself.

Posted by ams123 on January 7, 2009 at 9:41 AM · Report

103

The number of people in this thread who view the rape as consensual is terrifying. You must be having great sex, what with forcing someone's clothes off, exposing yourself to the unwilling, and just wearing them down 'til they don't have the energy to fight back. Fear must be such a fabulous lubricant. Sounds hot. Almost as hot as finding a WILLING PARTNER.

Lest we forget, men are socially conditioned, too. They're taught to have sex at any cost, and that they're in charge.

Oh, and 'gave in' can mean a number of things. Unless women have developed the ability to close up their vaginas or she had a gun to his head.

Posted by Kiki on January 7, 2009 at 9:46 AM · Report

104

DREAD, I'm glad to hear you are handling the aftermath so well. I want to repeat the suggestion that you see a therapist. I didn't, and I think that made my healing process take years longer. Whey didn't I? Well I was too embarrassed to talk to a therapist. Embarrassed of being a 10 year old who didn't say no when molested by an older family member. Stupid of me, but it goes to show how far conditioning goes to damage our innate common sense.

I don't really blame your bf for reacting badly at first. It sucks and in a perfect world he'd be 100% supportive right away... But he was dealing with shock, too.

---------
I can't believe some people are criticizing her exact words! I'm sure constructing effective sentences with just the right connotation were foremost in her mind at the moment.

DREAD has learned a lesson the hard way. For everyone else, remember: if you fight you MIGHT get raped and hurt. If you don't fight you DEFINATELY will.

And whatever you do and whatever force applied, do NOT get in a car and go somewhere else. FBI statistics clearly show your chances of getting out alive are very slim if you go to another place, but are pretty high if you fight.

It doesn't matter if you know how to fight, you are not trying to overpower your attacker and "win" -- you are trying to get away by whatever means necessary. Even a 6 week old kitten can get away from a burly man because the cat has one goal only: escape. And the kitten fights dirty.

Of course, the kitten hasn't been conditioned to be more concerned about a man's precious than her own physical, emotional and mental well-being. The first step is to decide ahead of time how you'll react. And try to de-condition yourself.

More...

Posted by Nic on January 7, 2009 at 9:46 AM · Report

105

She says she "let him finish." That, and the letter in general, sounds like a weak attempt to pretend she had some iota of control over the situation.

Posted by lkhead on January 7, 2009 at 9:54 AM · Report

106

I'll tell you one reason why a woman is less likely than you'd hope to scream at a guy who's raping her and tell him "No!" or "You're raping me!" in uncertain terms: She's scared for her life. She thinks, if she goes along with it, it'll be over more quickly and the guy won't try to silence her with a knife or other weapon.

It can be empowering to fight back, but it isn't always possible to do so when a rape is happening.

Afterwards, though, there's a good reason to report the bastard, even (I would say especially) if you know him: If he did it to you, he's likely to try to do it to someone else, if he hasn't already. If you can find the wherewithal to go to the authorities, PLEASE do so! The fact that so many women don't is what allows these predators to get away with it.

Silence isn't golden.

Posted by My Name Here on January 7, 2009 at 9:57 AM · Report

107

blarrrgh - Again, proving you've never been raped. Or have even a basic understanding of the power of fear and the defense mechanisms of the human brain.

None of us were there, but to suggest that someone wasn't raped because they were unable to continue protesting AFTER THEY ALREADY SAID NO is pretty feeble. Have you ever been assaulted? Literally retreated into your own head, unable to speak or move or even believe in the moment that it was really happening? Then shut the fuck up.

Posted by DCRJ on January 7, 2009 at 10:03 AM · Report

108

9 times out of 10 a woman on a date will start saying no at the time you'll get close to actual sex. This is how they programmed. They need to feel that a man was responsible for all decisions not to feel like a slut after that. There's a term in the pickup theory for that - Last Minute Resistance. There are special techniques to overcome that. If every man would stop on the first (or even on the 10th) weak "no" the human race would cease to exist.

Posted by kennyg on January 7, 2009 at 10:10 AM · Report

109

I have a question. Who the hell is drumming into girls' minds the idea that they should avoid confrontation at all costs? Followup question: who would like to join me in pulverizing those people?

Posted by ndt on January 7, 2009 at 10:26 AM · Report

110

i think psilly cybin, mrclean, and all future blamers of rape victims posting here should be required to post their photo along with their comments.

Posted by shannon murphy on January 7, 2009 at 10:30 AM · Report

111

Why yes, DCRJ, I have been assaulted on various occasions; thank you for your concern. And I never for a moment lost my resolve to prevail over my attackers.

Posted by blarrrgh on January 7, 2009 at 10:31 AM · Report

112

She should definitely file a police report. And get into rape counseling. Even if no charges are ever brought, at least there will be a file on him when he does this again (and he will, rapists don't stop). And she should warn all of her friends and all of him friends so they know never to be alone with him.
But from the boyfriend's perspective, well, maybe what he wants is a more confrontational/assertive girlfriend. If she's nonconfrontational, someone less dangerous such as a pushy telemarketer might also take advantage of her in a way that not illegal. I don't think it's unreasonable to want someone to be more physical or angry in defending themself.
She needs someone who is supportive and understanding and will beat the crap out of the ex for her, which is obviously not him.
Maybe pressing charges will make him understand, but probably not. Just break it off.

Posted by sf gal on January 7, 2009 at 10:36 AM · Report

113

Jesus Christ, I cannot BELIEVE the comments on this page!

Forget victim-blaming and what ridiculous levels of responsibility we think we can put on women being raped to stop the crime...what the fuck does this mentality say about MEN?

If you believe that it's the woman's responsibility to stop her rapist, you're basically saying that MEN are naturally rapists, that MEN are incapable of understanding "no," that MEN can't control themselves, can't stop, can't distinguish consent from non consent and don't want to, don't care if their partners are into it, don't care about getting fucking ENTHUSIASTIC AND CLEAR CONSENT.

And to 11:11 - I'm sorry you had a traumatic experience, but you're still a fucking idiot. Rape is defined by LACK OF CONSENT not level of trauma. If you're going to sit here and say that one thing isn't rape because it's less traumatic, then your situation was obviously not rape either, because I'm guessing it wasn't as traumatic as the woman in New York who was brutally tortured (eyes gouged, poured boiling water on her) and repeatedly raped for several hours a few months ago. How DARE you diminish that poor woman's experience by saying that you were raped too?

Wait...what am I saying? I bet that woman is a cowardly little pretender, too, because I'm guessing there's some woman somewhere who had an even WORSE rape experience and only HER situation could have been REAL rape!

Posted by Laurel on January 7, 2009 at 10:45 AM · Report

114

DREAD... Because a recurrence of something as awful as rape is in itself awful to contemplate, it's understandable you'd probably rather not think about it. Unfortunately, denial and numbing ourselves down risks making us permanent victims. You may want to think seriously about what you can do to reduce the chances it'll ever happen again.

At the very least, try to get over your inhibitions about making noise. Walk out on the nearest busy corner and scream something harmless, like, "I loathe winter in Seattle." Give it a couple of tries, working on maximum breath and projection. Feel proud of how much noise you can make. People will no doubt look at you oddly as you wander off to have a celebratory, post-scream dessert, but you'll have learned how to wake the whole neighborhood and deafen an attacker using nothing more than the voice you were born with.

Train your reflexes. If you can break your social inhibitions just for practice, perhaps with the support of a friend, you'll be a lot more likely to manage it in an emergency.

Posted by rbryanh on January 7, 2009 at 10:47 AM · Report

115

DREAD, if you're still reading (i can't - i read you tell everyone else to go to hell, which was very satisfying, and then i had to quit reading for my own sanity), i'm so sorry for all the fuckheads posting here.

i had this crazy idea in my mind that in the northwest we're less misogynistic and more progressive than in fucking afghanistan or the south-eastern U.S. then i read bullshit like fully half of what's above and have to think i'm delusional. or maybe i just don't hang out with assholes like those. WHO WOULD? i have no idea who their friends are. especially their girl-friends, though i'm not convinced they have any. they certainly don't deserve them.

do any of these fuckwads picture their mom, sister, girlfriend, daughter, in this same situation? or do they prefer to think of you as this anonymous entity so they don't have to realize that yes, this AND WORSE happens to women. women they know, love and care about. every fucking day. for obvious reasons, those women wouldn't tell such fuckwads about these happenings. so they think it only happens to women who could have stopped it, and chose not to. i'm sure that's more comfortable. it's also incredibly fucking stupid, at least as stupid as they *would like to think* you were.

so i'm sorry. i'm really sorry about what happened to you, and i'm even more sorry that the attitudes that allow it to happen are alive and well. i'm especially sorry we can't rule out time-travel as a solution to your suffering, e.g. 'well, if only you HAD [insert whateverthefuck here].' you've got to be kidding me. TIME TRAVEL! you should go back in time and do it the right way and then everything will be fine! WHAT THE FUCK EVER. *headdesk*

i also like how no one seemed to consider that the ex? was an ex FOR A REASON. like, you may have known what a potentially abusive, stupid, criminal asshole he is. ya think?? which leads to DTMFA which you had already done. and that knowing what you know about him, you knew what the best of all possible options was in a totally fucked-up, aggression-driven confrontation with this rapist was: to get it over with by any means as soon as possible. that is survival, exactly the instinct a person needs to go on living. so good for you that you're alive. a lot of rape victims aren't, they're called rape *and murder* victims, bitchez.

it's not just you, and it's not just the new boyfriend (at the moment, which i'm glad to hear he's gotten over), and it's not just half the douchehounds posting on this thread. our whole fucked-up society has a big problem calling rape what it is. and if you resist by any means possible? oh, they may just charge you with battery. notice that they say there's an enormous difference between what we *say* we want women to do in rape situations and what we actually want them to do. sure, you can fight him off as long as he doesn't sustain enough damage to go to the hospital. notice how the rapist-defenders are all, why didn't you 'get away' or 'keep up the resistance' or 'knee him in the jewels' not, 'why didn't you cut his dick off?' 'shoot him' or 'get in the car and run over his rapist ass'? any of which would be supportable morally, but see above for consequences.

i'm sorry. i'm sorry for american attitudes as a whole, and i want peace for you. peace and strength. look up shakesville if you want a safe place to talk from here on, they heavily moderate comments so you don't have to listen to the bullshit above.

More...

Posted by happyhedonist on January 7, 2009 at 10:48 AM · Report

116

kennyg - has it occurred to you that maybe it's only 9 out of every 10 times women who find themselves with YOU are saying "no"? Seems a heck of a lot more likely to me.

Posted by Laurel on January 7, 2009 at 10:48 AM · Report

117

I'd only understand her BF's reaction if this sort of thing (getting tipsy at parties, subsequently being sexually assaulted) happens to his girlfriend on a regular basis. In such a case as that, his safety may be compromised, but as a one-time thing, he should remember that he could get himself sodomized in the NYC subway by a cop, so what's he whining about?

I hate to say it, but this girl may need a different set of friends if she can't party with them safely, and if they all behave as obnoxiously when drunk as her ex. Was he drunk? She was, but as a one-time occurrence that's a tactical error, not a moral failing.

Some comments are harshing her for not fighting back. All yez, shaddup. I've had years of martial arts training and I STILL have trouble hitting people who are, or were until a few seconds ago, my friends.

I would recommend the self defense course called either Impact! or Model Mugging. I took Model Mugging over 17 years ago, and subsequently was able to use it during a mugging several years later. They teach full-force self defense with psychological training to overcome the problem she had with not being able to assert herself.

http://www.impactbayarea.org/

Posted by Red Ree on January 7, 2009 at 10:49 AM · Report

118

Jessemoya: I dunno about you, but I thought gator was a chick. That said, I'm not sure how your assumption or mine should factor into calling them a dickish "tough guy."

Posted by Gloria on January 7, 2009 at 10:54 AM · Report

119

Yes, I am always "asking for it", mrclean, when I REPEATEDLY say "No" and put my clothes back on. Especially when I was not the one taking my clothes off in the first place.

Posted by Tbetts on January 7, 2009 at 10:55 AM · Report

120

ikhead - that's an important point! We want to believe that people we know and have some degree of trust in are going to stop when we say "no." When we don't, it's scary as fuck, so naturally, denial is going to be a defense mechanism. You don't want to believe you're being raped. You definitely don't want to fight back because fuck, you've just discovered that this asshole doesn't respect your bodily autonomy, so what are the chances he'll somehow draw the line at physical violence?

Posted by Laurel on January 7, 2009 at 11:02 AM · Report

121

Since when is saying "no, I can't" the same as saying "take me now," mrclean?

She was raped. She said no and he fucked her anyway and that's rape. Rape is, by definition, something done without the victim's consent, which means you cannot -ask- for it.

Posted by Bea on January 7, 2009 at 11:06 AM · Report

122

@mrclean

No girl ever asks for it. She made a choice yes, she even admits that she made the choice of giving in. It doesn't make it right. This guy is a piece of shit. Saying that she asked for it, is like saying a member from the LGBTQ community asks to be beaten in a hate crime. I will never understand why people won't admit that these things happen.

Posted by oneopinion on January 7, 2009 at 11:08 AM · Report

123

blarrrgh - While I'm truly sorry that you yourself have been a victim of violence, I find your apparent attitude towards DREAD all the more perplexing knowing this. In her letter she said she repeatedly refused. The fact that the sex act took place, after her refusal and without giving consent makes it rape. It is the very definition of rape. She never said yes. Allowing it to happen after repeated refusal isn't willing participation, it's sexual assault.

I submit you may need to broaden your definition of what constitutes an assualt, and who can be a victim.

Posted by DCRJ on January 7, 2009 at 11:10 AM · Report

124

Kennyg - you're a rapist! Congratulations. I have said weak 'no's before - and always meant them. When someone says no, STOP. Pull back, ask what's wrong. I have had plenty of sex that didn't involve nos. The human race would not cease to exist. Rape would cease to exist.

Posted by KateH on January 7, 2009 at 11:16 AM · Report

125

She said "No." That's not consent. She said it repeated times and tried to push the guy away. That's not consent. He raped her, no question about it. Weak or not "no" is "no" and anything beyond verbal persuasion is violence, verbal persuasion beyond the third "no" or so is sexual harassment too, by the way.

People in a relationship who like their "no's" overridden have what's called a "safe word" to avoid rape. It's another word to mean stop right now, so they effectively have a way to say no. This was discussed in a recent column of Dan's folks. If you don't have a safe word, then "no" always means "no", not keep trying or keep going.

If you aren't sure if someone really means "no" assume it does and walk away. People who say "no" but want sex will soon learn to say "yes" if they want sex with you. And you can have the self-respect of only having sex with people who are willing to say yes; and the knowledge that you have certainly never raped someone. Surely that's worth more than one night's bedding.

I was date raped too, not drunk, in an LTR with the guy and all it took to subdue me was his raising his arm as if he was going to hit me. Of course he weighed almost twice what I did and was much stronger, but I *could* have fought harder sure. I didn't want to get hit or worse though. Unlike with a stranger rape, I was pretty sure he wouldn't kill me after; and unlike sex with a HIV partner, I was pretty sure I wouldn't die from it. In both those cases I would have feared more for my life and would have fought harder for sure. I made a choice of two evils, and I survived; but no question I was raped even though I didn't fight.

Posted by SpookyCat on January 7, 2009 at 11:17 AM · Report

126

When someone imposes negative consequences on another for not doing what he says, that's called "force." And forcing someone to have sex is rape.
Reasonable Person, this is *completely wrong*.
Saying, "If we don't have sex, I'm break up with you" is not threatening rape. Saying "If we don't have sex, I'm never speaking to you again" is not threatening rape. The difference is whether the negative consequence is something the other person has every right to do or not, and whether it's a crime. Punching you is a crime. Breaking up with you is not. Firing you isn't a crime, but it is against the law if it's for sex-related reasons, which is why you can sue if your boss says "Sleep with me or I'll fire you."
Now DREAD might have thought he would physically hurt her if she fought back or protested loudly, but she didn't say that in the letter. If a confrontation would be yelling, making a scene, them not being on friendly terms anymore, those are negative consequences that do not qualify as force.
Consent requires something active, not just passivity (otherwise, you couldn't rape unconscious people). If she said no once, then consent requires a yes or some other positive indicator. But that doesn't mean he used force to gain her cooperation.

Posted by sf gal on January 7, 2009 at 11:18 AM · Report

127

Having once been an 18 year old girl being hectored by a similarly persistent 18 year old guy, saying no for hours but coming out with a similar outcome, DREAD was raped. She said no. Her ex didn't respect that and back off. He ripped her clothes off and forced himself on her. And she wasn't even on a date with this guy, so she was not date-raped.

Why do guys think that if they just pester women long enough, somehow 'no' will magically change to 'oh baby, do me'? Why should we have to fight you or kick you in the nuts before you are willing to actually believe that 'no' actually means 'sorry, dude, not interested. Please go away'? I understand that sometimes, women get worn down from saying no and not being listened to, from having their volition totally disregarded, they feel like they are talking, but nothing is getting through, they are powerless, don't want to cause a scene, and eventual submission is what non-confrontational souls end up when they are pummeled repeatedly. And come on, cut this young woman some empathy in the fight back dept. She's only 18 years old. She hasn't come into her own power yet.

And DREAD, I agree with the suggestion to report this guy to the cops and let your whole circle of friends know what happened.

Posted by why isn't one no sufficient? on January 7, 2009 at 11:20 AM · Report

128

DREAD:

Once again you undermine your case with your own words:

"Given a choice between succumbing under pressure, or being confrontational and having to leave the party immediately and drive home intoxicated, I chose the former."

Gee, so you fucked your ex-boyfriend in the parking lot so you wouldn't have to leave the party early?

And so YES, let's stay on topic: your current boyfriend has a problem in that he is being asked to be sympathetic to this complete bullshit...he should move on.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 7, 2009 at 11:29 AM · Report

129

No woman EVER asks to be raped. And 1 out of 3 women in this country will be raped or sexually assaulted in her lifetime.

Rape is not about sex. It is about control and power.

DREAM was drunk and agreed to have someone she TRUSTED come and make sure she was SAFE while going out to her car. Her rapist violated that trust when he did not listen to her words (NO, I can't) or her actions (attempting to push him away, pulling her pants back up). He deserves public shame and humiliation, she deserves support and healing.

I'm as GGG as the next girl, and I understand rape fantasies, but those fantasies are the choice of the participants. DREAM did not choose this.

Hang in there, girl. You're not alone.

Posted by lwp on January 7, 2009 at 11:30 AM · Report

130

To the rest of you:

Which is it? Can a woman run for president of the United States, OR, are women just too weak and are socialized to conform?

'cause, I am personally offended that these attitudes are being used by people who in other situations would appear enlightened.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 7, 2009 at 11:31 AM · Report

131

Iwp - can you support that statistic?

I no you can't because I know how it was derived...do some research.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 7, 2009 at 11:32 AM · Report

132

"I eventually discontinued my attempts to pull my pants back up because I figured the easiest way to get out of this situation was to let him finish." Really? I'd be surprised if a similar exchange hadn't also occurred while you were dating him. I second that you see a therapist about having the courage to exert your will. You have some responsibility. You were outside the car when he forced himself on you & you tried to stop him. Did you unlock your car door so you could be raped inside more easily, or did it happen in the street where others could easily witness it? The only weapons he had were his penis & his poor judgment. Your weapon was low self-esteem which told you that it's easier to avoid confrontation, and you & he used it against you. How was it easier to avoid confrontation, leave your pants down & let him use you? Consult with a professional therapist to sort out your head, and figure out if your ex's behavior was something you've experienced before with him, or any other male in your life. Because your current boyfriend displays abusive qualities as well. It's a woman's responsibility to be aware, protect herself, and value herself enough to make good choices. Until a woman values herself more, she'll just find more men who will give her as little as she feels she deserves. Like the ones who don't hear NO, because you don't matter to them or yourself. Hold yourself accountable for your own actions, and learn from it. Only you know if this experience with your ex is a sex pattern, or an isolated incident of assault. Since your ex thought he could get away with it & did, I'm sure he has some ideas on the matter as well. Some girls/younger women like their sex with subtle coercion, because then it wasn't their choice & it didn't really happen. Same with birth control-if you plan to have sex, you're a slut. If it just happens or if he coerces you, you're not a slut. He felt entitled to repeatedly pull your pants down, while your hands were where? You said you felt guilty and you cheated? Maybe you're an immature 18 and you shouldn't have sex with anyone until you figure out that you deserve better than the guys you're choosing.

More...

Posted by annie on January 7, 2009 at 11:33 AM · Report

133

Ferretrick is on the right track. That girl was abused earlier down the road or watched her mother be abused. She should take a model mugging class and scream no a hundred couple times. I bet she'd learn a thing or two. Yep an opportunity for personal growth. Live learn and move on, report the ex, dump the current.

Posted by oolongtee on January 7, 2009 at 11:37 AM · Report

134

I have mixed feelings about the first letter. While I feel that rapists should be set on fire, It just seems like the victim was nagged to tears and she just gave up defending herself. I know I'm gonna sound like a dick, but why didn't she just rake her nails across his face? She didn't want a confrontation? The easiest way to get out of the situation was to let him finish? She didn't want to hurt his feelings? C'mon.

Posted by Rotten666 on January 7, 2009 at 11:41 AM · Report

135

Psilly Cybin writes:
"I suggest that the current Boyfriend move on and find someone who is faithful."

What a ridiculous, ignorant, hurtful comment. The men out there who are so insecure in themselves that they can't believe the heartfelt, sworn truth of a girl they supposedly love ought not to have girlfriends at all. It's not as if most women have any chance against most men in a battle of force, especially if they're drunk and untrained in martial arts. Remember, all you machismo-I-own-this-woman-freaks, karma is a bitch.

Posted by dissolvedgirl22 on January 7, 2009 at 11:44 AM · Report

136

So, the fact is - whether you like it or not - I used to be a rape counselor and I used to help out in a program designed to educate college-age men about what date-rape was and how to listen to women saying no. So, I know a thing or two about a thing or two....

My perspective is that in this day and age, with the empowerment that women not only deserve - but demand - that simple honesty is in order here. For DREAD's boyfriend the issue is this: whether or not DREAD wanted to have sex with her ex-boyfriend, she did, and at some point leading up to that event there other decisions being made about spending time with that ex-boyfriend at the party, going somewhere with him alone, even letting things get to the point where a Make-out style kiss could be completed (as opposed to twisting so he misses your mouth and hits your cheek) and those events were themselves small acts of unfaithfulness to him - and how he is being asked - nay, forced, to look past that and comfort her for the trauma of the rest of it.

Remember, this started with her behavior towards an ex-boyfriend while drunk. And so back the basic question - does the current boyfriend OWE her something? Does he have any right to question - even if only in his own head - how okay he is with the whole prelude to the sex? She may be a victim, and I would say that she is a victim, of a very bad person, but so is her current boyfriend and he has a good reason to believe that she is partially responsible for this happening and good reason to worry that something like it could happen again.

"been there, done that, FUCK does it suck" you are a chump. You stated that your "girlfriend" got date-raped while out with her other girlfriends. I'm sorry, did I miss something? Was she out on a date? It seems to be honest to say that yes, having sex was not part of her plan and she didn't want it to happen BUT she made a series of choices that were each unfaithful to you leading up to a situation where she was being intimate with someone in the first place in such a way that he can just go to the next step. You don't go from talking in a bar to him having sex with you without some steps in between. Once again, you are being asked to ignore her obvious infidelity to comfort her.

My bottom line message is that even though DREAD was raped, she was also being unfaithful to her current boyfriend in how she ended up in the situation in the first place.

More...

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 7, 2009 at 11:47 AM · Report

137

I've had a nice continued relationship with every girl who would say "no" before sex. Most of them would make a point of thanking me later on for being persistent, the general tone of their comment was that they are tired of emaciated man who would listen to every word a woman would say like a gospel, that they like to have a man in their life who knows what he wants and is persistent in achieving it.

Posted by kennyg on January 7, 2009 at 11:57 AM · Report

138

....but the dude is still a fucker and needs to get his nuts stomped.

Posted by Rotten666 on January 7, 2009 at 12:08 PM · Report

139

MRCLEAN - I'm gonna take that as a sarcastic and ironic comment.

If this is true then you're hilarious if not you suck.

Posted by LT on January 7, 2009 at 12:09 PM · Report

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Dan, good response to REAM. I don't think you really even needed to provide the "disclaimer" in the last paragraph of your response, but I understand you did it just to save yourself some grief.

As you correctly pointed out, this isn't so much about fat as it is about selfishness: "It's my body, and I can have it look any damn way I want!" But here's a thought: maybe REAM, because of a prevailing PC attitude in society, has never told his partner honestly what it is that attracts him to him; obviously, one of those things is a slim build. But that's not PC, is it? I think long ago we reached a point where PC stopped being a good thing (not hurting someone's feelings) and became a bad thing (not communicating honestly with a loved one).

Posted by Chris down in The Couv on January 7, 2009 at 12:14 PM · Report

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She's obviously playing the "poor defenseless girl" card to avoid taking responsibility for being unfaithful. C'mon people! She says right in the letter she let him finish! All you femi-nazis are taking merit away from real rape victims!

Posted by Genitalien on January 7, 2009 at 12:15 PM · Report

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I just wanted to say thank you for posting, DREAD. Something almost identical happened to me a little over two years ago, except that it wasn't an ex-boyfriend. (It was a first "date," and he took me on the top of a building to "see the view.") What surprised me most was my reaction to what happened. I'd always imagined that if I ever found myself in that sort of situation, I would fight like hell. (I'm petite, but scrappy.) But somehow, when actually faced with someone who outweighed me by almost 100 pounds, all I found I could do was to say no, cry, and wait for it to be over. But because I hadn't actually attempted to fight, as I'd always assumed I would, it took me awhile to process the fact that I had been raped. I probably should have filed charges, but it is so daunting when it is your word against his. Anyways, I just wanted to thank you - and Dan - again for clarifying that even when a rape doesn't fit the classic stranger-in-a-dark-alley scenario, it is still rape and still can be incredibly hurtful. And I'd also like to add that for everyone judging DREAD for her reaction, unless you've been there yourself, please realize that you might not have any idea how you would react either.

Posted by you don't know till you've been there on January 7, 2009 at 12:21 PM · Report

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Nice one Dan, but you forgot to tell her to find herself an experienced counselor or support group. She needs someone to reinforce the fact that it wasn't her fault.

Oh, and try for a counselor willing to hold a few couple's sessions if she and her boyfriend stay together.

Posted by crystina on January 7, 2009 at 12:25 PM · Report

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HOLY SHIT kennyg - you are a fucking creep!! I have had sex 100s of times and NONE of them started out with me saying no. You need to seriously need to apologize for every woman you took advantage of by making them have sex when they didn’t want to. Forget the term rapist, you simply have no respect for yourself or any of the poor women you pursue. You need considerable psychological reprogramming when it comes to sex.

Maybe if creeps like you actually did stop when women said no, there would be less fucking rapist in our society!

Kudos to SpookyCat and KateH. Glad to know there are some truly self-respecting people out there.

Posted by In Solidarity Against Creeps on January 7, 2009 at 1:00 PM · Report

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Psilly Cybin – There are all types of women out there who are at different stages of maturity and self-respect – just like there are men who could commit rape and those that could not. Don’t over simplify the issue. It makes you appear stupid.

There are women who would have dealt differently the scenario that DREAD faced (perhaps more in line with what you think would be best), but that doesn’t make what happened anything other than rape.

Posted by In Solidarity Against Creeps on January 7, 2009 at 1:02 PM · Report

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"you don't know till you've been there" thanks for the contribution but you missed the point - the point is about her current boyfriend and everyone's impulse to call him a bad guy in this situation and offer her advice on how to handle that relationship.

I am advocating his position because I understand it in a rather unique way and because I think that the letter writer's own words and descriptions of the events are confusing - just image how hard it has been for two of them to communicate and what her current boyfriend has actually been told/heard.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 7, 2009 at 1:04 PM · Report

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Call it whatever you want, Rape? Fine, I'll call it rape too - that's not really the issue the issue is about the relationship to the current boyfriend and whether he has the right to ask serious questions about the how she ended up in this situation in the first place and why she feels its reasonable to justify her response the way she is...she has not said, as far as I have seen, that she was afraid of any consequence other than making a scene and changing the dynamic of the relationship she had with him.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 7, 2009 at 1:07 PM · Report

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OK, So I gave up reading the comments about 2/3 through, so...

Several comments I read put forth the idea that silence equals consent or that taking the quickest route to safety 'letting him finish' equals consent. The problem with this argument is that it assumes by default that consent is inherently given until taken away. Consent does not and cannot exist until given. Period. Therefore, silence does not and cannot equal consent. Giving in to an attacker or rapist does not and cannot equal consent.

Posted by kueven on January 7, 2009 at 1:08 PM · Report

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And let's once and for all clear up the major myth that one can
"ask" to be raped. Think about it, people. If I walk up to you and "ask" you to rape me, it's not rape anymore, is it? It's a fetish fantasy scenario. This girl definitely ought to have taken better care of herself at that party, i.e. making sure to buddy up with a trusted friend, and not allowing the ex-boyfriend to break her off from the herd (as I doubt this is the first time he's ever done anything to indicate a lack of trustworthiness.) HOWEVER --- as was stated in my training for our local rape crisis hotline time and time again, making a mistake, having poor judgment, and being emotionally weak are NOT rapable offenses. Nothing is --- I don't care if you're Angelina Jolie crawling around naked with your ass in the air. Men are not animal/robots waiting for a cock signal to take the offensive with any woman they please. No matter how dumb/drunk another person is, YOU are still responsible for YOUR actions, and no means no.

Posted by dissolvedgirl22 on January 7, 2009 at 1:12 PM · Report

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She was not asking for it, though her ex probably thought that. She said no, a bunch of times. She didn't scream and didn't fight as hard as she could but she did what she THOUGHT she could do at the time. At every advance, she refused him. When he pulled down her pants, she pulled them back up again, many times. That, combined with the many "nos" indicates to me that her ex didn't give a fuck what she really wanted and probably is really fucked up about sex. He needs to be confronted.
About her eventually consenting (sort of and under force). She wanted the experience to be over as soon as possible. While that doesn't make for as convincing an argument for rape now, days of weeks later, in the moment I can see why it made the most sense.
She needs to threaten the ex, talk to the boyfriend (instead of beg him) and probably go to therapy for help with the trauma.
Dan, you're absolutely right: this was rape.
Just my 10, or so, cents.

Posted by Brooklyngirl on January 7, 2009 at 1:20 PM · Report

151

I totally agree that the "rapist" is a piece of shit. However, I have to say I'm with the new boyfriend on this one. She may have been drunk and intimidated, but she wasn't forced. She also never says she felt threatened physically, and she admits that she went along with it because it was the easy thing to do. That's not rape. That's a girl with terrible self esteem getting taken advantage of, but it's not rape.

Plus, if she had dated the guy before, she should have a pretty good idea if he was the kind of guy that would beat her up for not cooperating. Again, besides pulling her pants down, she never indicates that he forced her to have sex against her will.

If that were my GF, I would be devastated. I'm not saying she would receive no sympathy, but my reaction would be "How could you let him do that to you and not fight back?" I bet one scream would have done the trick.

Posted by JZula on January 7, 2009 at 1:22 PM · Report

152

I was on DREAD's side until "Whether or not you morons realize it, having sex with a woman who has consumed alcohol--whether you have also consumed alcohol or not--is rape."

That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. In that case, he probably drank alcohol too, and you raped him back! Dumbass.

Posted by falconswan on January 7, 2009 at 1:34 PM · Report

153

happyhedonist - Yeah, you're right, DREAD's real problem is "american attitudes as a whole"...of course, if she lived in any number if countries in the Middle East or Africa she could be stoned to death for what "she did"

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 7, 2009 at 1:38 PM · Report

154

From DREAD:

"having sex with a woman who has consumed alcohol--whether you have also consumed alcohol or not--is rape"

I guess I've raped my girlfriend hundreds of times, then...

Posted by JZula on January 7, 2009 at 1:40 PM · Report

155

Oh, for Christ's sake.

I'm sorry, I know I said I wouldn't write anymore, but I find it so hard to keep my mouth shut after reading these comments.

As for my current man: He is a wonderful person. Despite his mistakes in the past. I got pregnant once (his) and when I was bedridden with morning sickness, he made me chicken soup from scratch and spent every spare moment by my side. He paid for the abortion in full. When I was screaming in pain from the induced miscarriage, he cried for me and took care of me until it was over. He treats me like a princess and I couldn't wish for a more loving, supportive partner. I had to beg him not to beat the ex's face in because I just didn't want any more trouble. I don't know where anyone got the idea that he's abusive. Yes, at first, he was skeptical, but then he came around. He trusts me and knows I'm not lying and now he is behind me 100 per cent.

I've been accused here of being a liar, and imposter, a slut, an idiot, a weakling, a coward, a cheater, and a bad feminist. Some people tell me I should dump my boyfriend's misogynistic, cold, self-centered ass, and others tell me I'm scum and don't deserve to be with him. I'm going to average the two out and just stick around.

He and I have great sex, and my letter--which is NOT fabricated--does not stem from a desire to seem delicate and proper. I love sex. I never said I didn't. Anyone who knows me knows how much I love to fuck--my boyfriend. But there was nothing I enjoyed about being assaulted by my ex.

Furthermore, no, I did not open my car door to be raped more easily. I opened my door, got my phone, and when I popped back up the ex was in my face. After pinning me against the side of the car for a minute he pushed me in the door (which was still open) and pushed me down on the seat. Just for your information.

Seriously, goodbye now. I'm not going to check this thing anymore because it doesn't matter--I wasn't asking for the opinions of assholes like Psilly and Mrclean, I was asking for Dan's. I got my advice. Good night and good luck.

More...

Posted by DREAD on January 7, 2009 at 1:42 PM · Report

156

So, I feel pretty good about the balance in this discussion actually. Yes, there are knee-jerk reactions on both sides but there is also a nice middle-ground of men, women, people who have been raped, who all agree that this situation is not at all clear to the current boyfriend and that the letter writer, at least in her own written description of these events, could have made a different choice. I think it is absolutely obvious that if she can't even write down a description of the event that makes it clear that she did everything she could to avoid this, then the actual conversations she is having with her boyfriend are probably leaving a lot to be desired.

Stop blaming the current boyfriend.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 7, 2009 at 1:44 PM · Report

157

DREAD, I really hope you take the therapy recommendations seriously. And I say this with love and hope in my heart.

First of all, your ex raped you - your ex-boyfriend which means, at some point, you had an intimate relationship in which, I'm assuming you said you loved each other. You wanted the love of someone who ends up being a rapist capable of raping even someoe he has cared about....

Secondly, your bf - even if he's being supportive - was suspicious of you even when you told him it was without your consent.

(AND WTF commenter - Silence DOES NOT equal consent. Have you never heard the expression "paralyzed with fear"?!)

Thirdly, this current boyfriend who you are turning to for love and support during this emotionally difficult time has already cheated on you - twice.

Therapy will help you understand why you are seeking love from men who are obviously not loving you. And therapy will help you find love for your own self.

I know, this sounds preachy but really therapy has helped me immensely in my life (and I was molested by my ex-step-father when I was paralyzed with fear...)I then sought out unavailable, cruel men until therapy....

Posted by The Sassy Sexpert on January 7, 2009 at 1:47 PM · Report

158

Most women memorize and know how to use the phrase "stop now or I will call this rape" - unfortunately, this brilliant tactic only becomes obvious AFTER the first time they could have put it to appropriate use.

Posted by MadameHeather on January 7, 2009 at 1:50 PM · Report

159

No offense DREAD - just go away! You are a loser for asking Dan Savage what to do in this situation in the first place, and even more of a loser for not understanding that the fun part comes from tearing the letter writers apart and blasting Dan's responses...

Its not between you and Dan, moron, its on a syndicated advice column - people read it for the entertainment value....you are using your own personal experience to entertain us and you know this, otherwise, how would you even know about Dan Savage?

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 7, 2009 at 1:52 PM · Report

160

one question i'm left with is the make-out session. i mean, were they both kissing? this has nothing to do with the rape, as you can say no at any time and it still means no. but it does have to do with the cheating aspect. i kind of feel a little like a jerk even asking. the ex was certainly turned into a big jerk. but the cheating may have occurred before then.

Posted by infrequent on January 7, 2009 at 2:10 PM · Report

161

I am so on boards with Psilly Cybin; his posts are among the most thoughtful on this board. Too bad you fuckwads keep lumping him in with idiot trolls like mrclean.

Posted by JZula on January 7, 2009 at 2:13 PM · Report

162

GO TO THE POLICE! GET HIS ASS IN JAIL! NOW! DON'T HESITATE! YOU WERE FREAKEN RAPED!!!!!!

Posted by Liz on January 7, 2009 at 2:17 PM · Report

163

About REAM: Some people have suggested above that he is somehow shallow or that love transcends physical condition. What kind of chick-flick bullshit is that?

They've only been together 4 years. While that may be long for some serial monogamists, even troubled, abusive marriages can typically limp along that long. Don't make REAM out to be a bad guy for feeling disinclined towards a partner who has no good reason to have let himself go.

In 10 years I went from 145 lbs to 195. I have a hip condition which prevents all the sorts of exercises I enjoyed doing when I was in the military. I have no self-esteem and never have, really. I -still- cared enough to exercise (as best I could) with my last girlfriend, when she was concerned about my weight gain. I valued the relationship; if REAM's boy wants to put on the blinders more than he wants to save his relationship, I don't think REAM is at fault for looking for someone who values him enough to at least make an attempt.

Posted by falconswan on January 7, 2009 at 2:28 PM · Report

164

For the record, I think mrclean was joking and not serious... I kind of took it as a criticism of old time society's attitude- like sarcasm.

And psilly just stated his opinion in a straight forward non-aggressive way so I don't see why people keep attacking him.

As for the Event, I think it could have played out several different ways. Non-drunk guy refuses to take weak, wasted girl's clear "no"s and "I can't"s and rapes her.

Drunk ex-boyfriend takes weak, wasted girl's "no/I can't"s to be token objections and proceeds to convince her to have sex with him, not realizing that she really meant it.

I don't think anyone's trying to condone what the guy did, clearly he's an asshole.

But if in their relationship, DREAD said "no, I can't" and then changed her mind, it's possible the ex didn't realize her (true) lack of consent.

I mean, without the whole, unedited story, there's no knowing whether it was rape or not. This isn't a courtroom and we are not a jury...

I don't think feeling violated and dirty after an experience makes it rape. Also, I think one has to clearly express their nonconsent or be rendered unable to express their consent or nonconsent (ex: date-rape drugs, children, passed out ect.) for it to be rape.

I think that it sounds like DREAD perhaps let herself be raped but that seems a contradiction in terms...

Posted by ccouch on January 7, 2009 at 2:30 PM · Report

165

seroconverted? gotta love the passive voice. howzabout "deservedly got himself a case of HIV"

Posted by bing on January 7, 2009 at 2:44 PM · Report

166

Laurel- thanks for saying "enthusiatic". Rape is not sex. It's obvious when you are having sex. Stop what you are doing until you have learned the difference. Maybe rent "The Accused" as lesson number one.

Posted by kresblamania on January 7, 2009 at 2:51 PM · Report

167

Here's how I imagine this played out. Don't go demonizing the new BF just yet.

Hypothetical:
I'm in the new BF's shoes.

My GF comes home and tells me she was raped at a party. Visions fill my head: visions of someone peeling the clothes off my GF and violating her while she's passed out drunk; visions of some ham-fisted frat boy beating and strangling her into submission; visions of a man with a knife threatening to take her life in unless she relents...

First reaction? I grab the nearest blunt object and head out the door, looking for blood. Then I calm down.

"How did this happen?" I ask.

"Well, I was drinking at this party and Vince(Let's call the ex Vince for fun) was there..."

I think to myself, "Did she know he was gonna be there?"

She continues, "We started talking and I didn't know a lot of other people, so we hung out."

To myself, "What the fuck is she doing partying with that asshole, Vince?"

"I went to get my phone out of the car and he followed me outside. We were both kinda tipsy. He pushed me against the car and we made out a little."

To her: "What do you mean, you made out a little?" To self: "How could you do that to me?"

"Well, like I said, we were both kind of tipsy. But then, out of nowhere, he totally RAPED ME!"

To self: "I'm gonna kill that fucker." To her, "What did you do?"

"Well, I said no a couple times..."

"And?"

"And I said, 'We can't do this; I have a boyfriend."

"And?"

"Well, I said it meekly. I didn't want to hurt his feelings..."

To self: "Meekly?"

"Then he started pulling down my pants. I pulled them back up, but he pulled them back down, so I pulled them back up, and he pulled them right back down..."

"And no one saw this? I mean, your car was outside a big house party..."

"Well, it probably looked like we were there together. I mean, I wasn't screaming or hitting him or anything."

"Why the hell not?"

"Because he's my friend! I didn't want to embarrass him or make him think I didn't like him. We've had a good relationship since we broke up!"

To self: "What the FUCK?!"

"Then he pulled his dick out of his pants and started rubbing it on me... By this time, my pants were down because I was tired of pulling them back up every time he pulled them down."

"So how did he get it inside you? I don't see any bruises... did he have a knife? Did he threaten you?"

"No, I just didn't want to make a scene..."

"So you just stood there in the street with your pants down while some drunk guy tried to put his dick in you... but you didn't want to make a scene."

"Well, I just figured it was easier to just be quiet and have sex with him. It's not like it was the first time anyway... Plus, I wan't ready to leave the party yet."

"It was easier? So, I guess it wasn't as traumatic of a deal as you made it out to be?"

"No, I was TOTALLY RAPED! HE FORCED ME!"

To self: "DTMFA!"

More...

Posted by JZula on January 7, 2009 at 2:58 PM · Report

168

Dread, you're all over the place. Quite honestly I have a hard time believing your story. You sound a little psycho and I question if you're even being truthful due to inconsistencies in the statements you have made. Everyone is taking your statements at face value, I would choose to withhold judgment until I heard all sides. What I glean from you is this. You went and hung out with your ex at a party behind your BF's back. Went off alone with him to a secluded area. Your ex is a great guy, someone you chose to date at one time but is also capable of raping you. Your BF is a great guy who has cheated on you twice. You choose to stay with him but harbor great angst against him. The common factor I see in this is you. You are dysfunctional at best, seek help.

Posted by Dunno on January 7, 2009 at 3:03 PM · Report

169

Dread - I had a similar experience in college with someone who was not an ex but someone I considered a friend. We were drinking, I kept saying no, he kept trying anyway, I tried to leave and he physically carried me back to his room. I couldn't get it into my head that my friend would really do this to me until he pulled out a knife. Dan is exactly right that we are too socialized to be nice and non confrontational. Up until that point I could have screamed, I could have tried to hit him, but I just couldn't believe he would really hurt me. Hell, even after he pulled out the knife I could have screamed, but I didn't. And then afterwards he started crying and I was in a daze and actually tried to console him.

My advice now that I am much older is to take a self defense class, maybe take some martial arts. Learn to yell, loudly. Learn to protect yourself as an automatic response. Don't listen to the assholes here, but also make sure it never happens to you again.

Posted by citrine on January 7, 2009 at 3:05 PM · Report

170

DREAD'S mother ought to have her head slapped. Who the hell raises a girl so afraid of not being nice that she can't punch a jerk who didn't get the message the first couple of times she said no? Drunk people get pissed off and punch pushy assholes too.

**Unless she was raised by her father, in which case HE should have his head slapped.

Posted by cattheotherwhitemeat on January 7, 2009 at 3:06 PM · Report

171

DREAD, did you use the word "rape" when talking to your current boyfriend? Or did you say something like, "I kept saying no, and he wouldn't stop, so we did it"? If you're not willing to call it "rape", that means you are playing it down and admitting it was somewhat consensual. I'm not saying that is the right impression to draw, but it might be what your boyfriend is thinking. Remember: you can NEVER be too obvious with a guy. Subtle hints are not appropriate in this situation. If your boyfriend is not getting the message, you need to ramp it up. You need to say something like, "I was raped and forced to have sex against my will. If you can't support me on this, we have no future together."

Posted by TMan on January 7, 2009 at 3:17 PM · Report

172

@mrclean: Nobody asks for rape. fucktard.

Posted by fannerz on January 7, 2009 at 3:18 PM · Report

173

sometimes it's important to talk about these things, even as they are so volatile. when i was much younger, i was so afraid of the false-rape accusation (while i wasn't yet even having sex, mind you), that i was less likely to believe the woman's "side" of the story when a dispute arose. i bought the "she regretted it later" argument. but as you learn more and hear more, i was able to put that foolishness aside and adopt a better understanding.

it's tough for some guys to understand how powerful the impulse towards non-confrontation is. even the potential troll-like posts here implying silence = consent, or saying that if she "gave in" then it's not rape, don't mean that in the worst way possible. but they do mean it to some degree. they think saying "no" a few times is negated by the eventual silence. i don't agree with that, but it's important to understand why that is not consent.

i'm saddened and sickened by the frequency of date-rape. it's revolting how many guys do it and justify it. this makes it difficult to even discuss the matter, because the guys who say, "i knew she wanted it -- she was just playing hard to get" are so sickening and wrong.

this story is tricky not because rape is okay, and not because no doesn't means no, but rather because the way in which it is told leads the reader to view the alleged rapist through to much of their own lens. it doesn't help that DREAD kind of suggests that all drunk sex equals rape.

even as i read it, i saw the "no i can't" more as "no we can't", and was left wondering if the guy even heard the later, quiet "no" remarks at all. i guess that's to say, i wondered how much this ex-boyfriend knew he was actually raping her.

we weren't there. we weren't their for their previous relationship. i don't know how they used to have sex. i have to take her word for it, and i do.

but i can completely believe her and still wonder if they knew what he was doing. all guys who hear no should stop, end of story.

i dated a christian girl who liked to play the "no -- we can't -- it's wrong" game. it drove me crazy in a bad way. i'd say, "you right" (as my belief system at the time mandated!) to which she'd reply, "but it feels so good..." and right back at it, and so on.

this taints my lens. if i ran into that girl again, and she started in with that whole routine, i'm not sure i'd feel like a rapist.

this sort of "we shouldn't" happened with another girl as well, one i did not sleep with. she had a boyfriend, i was the other guy, and that time around i wasn't willing to play that game. she insulted me as i finally left, questing my masculinity because i couldn't "handle" her.

all that leads me to think that in the same way that our society teaches -- or forces -- some women to be non-confrontational, it also teaches some women that they should resist sex that they want to have, or they will be a slut (even though they would not be). and men are currently taught to pursue women to a point.

these norms vary. one woman friend of mine said if you ask a woman out once and she says no, you should never ask her out again. to do so would be harassment. i commented that sometimes woman play hard to get. and she said, no, guys just think women play hard to get. i could see her point in far too many cases. that is the lamest justification an unwanted suitor could use.

this demonstrates to me a disconnect in our present culture. we can't agree on how these things are supposed to happen before we even get to the sex rules.

but for most cases of date-rape, these are not issues. they are not issues. a woman knows when she's being raped -- and most guys know when they are pressuring a woman. if a guy pressures, and she says no, that should be it. too many guys use the excuse that "she's playing hard to get" to justify sexual aggression.

just because you were in a relationship were behavior was acceptable, that doesn't mean it applies to any other relationship. a hyperbolic example that easily proves this would be found in those couple who enjoy acting out rape fantasies.

i don't like the idea of "yuck fuck" so much -- there shouldn't need be a code word to stop guys from being assholes. but what is appealing is that it really removes the room for doubt in the eyes of the guy. being appealing is not good enough though. it's not fair to place additional requirements on how "no" has to be expressed. it's also appealing to suggest all rape victims go to the police (i think it would be grant), but unfortunately, there are once again reasons that doesn't always work out for the victim.

the guys saying it wasn't rape in this thread are annoying. because of them i have a hard time posting this (and because i don't want to seem to insensitive to the victim). but i am left wondering if it's possible under crazy circumstances for a girl to believe she was raped and a guy to not know he did it.

what i don't like about that is that it tends to excuse guys. and right now, there are far too many non "gray" area date rapes that are justified by lame reasoning.

i don't know if this makes sense at all, these are just some thoughts i wanted to put out there. i am still learning, and likely to change my view as i grow and understand more.

oh, and finally:

cheated on twice = treated like princess

More...

Posted by infrequent on January 7, 2009 at 3:18 PM · Report

174

DREAD: Check out community.livejournal.com/vaginapagina
It's a great, supportive community with NO victim-blaming.

Posted by Stop Blaming Victims on January 7, 2009 at 3:21 PM · Report

175

Here's the thing. She said 'no' and demonstrated some resistance (that was not pre-scheduled with a safe word).

No matter how poorly she acquitted herself afterwards, the guy remains a rapist. Yes, she could have resisted far better than she did (and we should remember that the mental state of feeling helpless is no small thing, no matter how physically capable you are). It doesn't change the fact that he is responsible for his own actions. I would also add that it's very likely that this is not his first rape, nor his last.

Posted by uberdude on January 7, 2009 at 3:22 PM · Report

176

"Also, I think one has to clearly express their nonconsent or be rendered unable to express their consent or nonconsent (ex: date-rape drugs, children, passed out ect.) for it to be rape"

The statement above suggests that by default consent is inherently given unless taken away. Let's rewrite this. One has to clearly express their consent for it not to be called rape.

Again, consent doesn't exist until it is given. Period.

Posted by kueven on January 7, 2009 at 3:23 PM · Report

177

I wish people would stop claiming that a simple utterance of the word "no" makes anything that transpires afterward "rape."

"No" can definitely be used in a coy and sex-baiting way. Most girls like to think they're making a guy work for it before putting out.

Of course, "no" can simply mean "no."

I'm not playing devil's advocate for rapists. I'm just saying that it's not uncommon for a girl to change her mind.

When I lost my virginity, neither of us planned to have sex (We were in our 20s, BTW). We discussed it, and she told me, flat-out that she didn't want to have sex yet, and I had no plans to push it further. Then, after a bit of slap and tickle, she changed her mind. In fact, she insisted on it, to my surprise.

Perhaps her hormones caught up with her in the heat of the moment. Whatever the case, I guess I'm lucky she didn't regret it afterward, because she could honestly tell a jury, "I said 'no' several times before he penetrated me." or "We had agreed beforehand that it would not go beyond kissing and touching."

Posted by JZula on January 7, 2009 at 3:24 PM · Report

178

Another thing: rape therapists always say that rape is an act of violence, not sex. I'd like to hear DREAD's take on this.

Was this event about violence, power, and the ex BF's domination of DREAD?

Or was it about an old flame whose feelings got stirred up while he was drinking at a party with his ex?

Initially, I felt no sympathy for the ex... I still don't, really, but I wonder if he realizes what he's done?

As infrequent said above, is it possible for a man to rape someone and not even know it?

Posted by JZula on January 7, 2009 at 3:34 PM · Report

179

And this is why I'm a bitch whenever I'm around people who are drinking alcohol-- because of assholes like mrclean who think that being friendly means you want to fuck. Answer to your question: Most girls don't want to fuck you, so just assume the answer is always NO.

Posted by VinesWhine on January 7, 2009 at 3:51 PM · Report

180

I can not believe that you did not encourage DREAD to press charges. Even if you thought that the lines were fuzzy, she should still press charges. Physical evidence is probably impossible at this point but she may still have a chance. She may have a witness. Hell, he may even confess under pressure. Just starting the process will show him what he did wrong and may scare him into better behavior even if he never gets convicted. It also lets him know that she is not willing to be a victim and may encourage her to defend herself more vehemently in the future.

Posted by bad advice dan on January 7, 2009 at 4:16 PM · Report

181

Lots of people at 18 are easy to overpower emotionally as well as physically, I know I was. That's what both boyfriends are doing in this story. The ex counted on DREAD's past affection for him preventing her from screaming bloody murder and bringing down the wrath of everyone at that party on him. The current is focusing his anger at DREAD and forcing her to beg his forgiveness, rather than making any effort to understand or offer help.

DREAD needs to call a rape crisis line and talk to someone neutral about how she feels. What she choses to do about these two men is her call. Most importantly, she needs to talk, at length, to someone who isn't telling her what to do, think or feel.

Posted by Erica T. on January 7, 2009 at 4:30 PM · Report

182

JZula - The difference between your story of losing your virginity and DREAD's is that even though the woman you were with said no initially, she later consented and "insisted on it," whereas DREAD never said yes.

We are all allowed to change out minds, and the way you acted in the situation demonstrates that you're a gentleman and the appropriate way to deal with a woman who is saying no and might be acting coyly. You didn't make that decision for her, you let her decide for herself.

Thanks for sharing.

Posted by In Solidarity Against Creeps on January 7, 2009 at 4:37 PM · Report

183

I would like everyone to remember that DREAD is 18. At 18, I thought I knew some shit, but life was often a cruel teacher. When you have no real life experience to draw from, you sometimes act contrary to what you think you know or what you've been taught.

I also know that at 18, after a few drinks, my ass was drunk. Whether I thought it was cool to admit it or not. So we should stop calling drunk "tipsy". You were drunk. Now that you know what your limits are, DREAD, save pushing those limits for partying with people who are 110% interested in your well-being.

Anecdotal situations aside, in most states, if you fuck an intoxicated girl and she decides to call it rape in the morning, she has a case for rape. Being drunk means a person cannot give consent by law. As someone said earlier, by these guidelines I've been raped tons, but thankfully the law isn't always so cut and dry. But let's not let a few remorseful, dishonest skanks who would tell such lies distract from the fact that many of us on have gotten messed up and lost full control of ourselves / judged a situation badly. Just because DREAD got drunk and it turned violent doesn't reflect much on her character or morals.

Women are taught what to do when "stranger rape" happens from Day 1 -- scream, yell "Fire", pepper spray, claw him in the eyeballs, fight fight fight etc. People who survive stranger rape end up on Oprah and are seen as survivors. People never say, "you should have fought harder!" People never say, "you froze up and let it happen, therefore you're a slut who should be dumped."

What TV show or what class taught you what to do when someone you thought you were cool with pulls this nonsense?

DREAD, LEARN FROM THIS. The ambiguity is over -- When you say no and a guy (ANY GUY) ignores that, he's in effect giving you carte blanche to mangle his fucking face. You now know it's better to err on the side of knocking someone out than dealing with this emotional fallout. Unfortunately, over the course of your life this could happen again. Experience has cruelly made you wiser, so fight for yourself next time. You're all you got.

More...

Posted by BansheeSmile on January 7, 2009 at 5:03 PM · Report

184

hey mrclean. Go get raped and then think about asking that question again.

Posted by self on January 7, 2009 at 5:03 PM · Report

185

The same thing happened to me when I was 19. I was date raped - and a virgin. Talk about a mess! My next boyfriend blamed me for it - he said I must have wanted it or I wouldn't have let the guy do it. Needless to say, I was a headcase afterwards: destructive behavior, bad decisions, everything. Then I got into therapy, realized that I was raped, dumped the jerk who blamed me, and got my life together. No matter what happens, go talk to someone (doctor, counselor, clergy) to help you get through this. And tell your current guy he's a jerk. You deserve better. A decade later, I am successful, well balanced (seriously, therapy is great), and have been able to have relationships with great people. But first I had to stopblaming myself. You didn't ask for it DREAD. You didn't deserve it. You are not to blame. And you will be okay in the end. Good luck!

Posted by profjezebel on January 7, 2009 at 5:50 PM · Report

186

To the close-gay friend:

If you want him to continue to be a friend, then drop it. What's done is done. He's beating himself up about it as it is. it won't change what happened.

I know I hate my Dentist lecturing me. It keeps me from scheduling appointments because I don't want to hear him lay on the guilt about not flossing enough. Same thing will happen with your friend, and it's why he's complained about your behavior.

Posted by Bayshore on January 7, 2009 at 6:07 PM · Report

187

Some commenters really need to read before accusing DREAD of shit she didn't do. There's no indication that anything happened "behind current boyfriend's back" or that she "made out with ex". They were at the same party. HE "pushed me against the car and started making out with" HER and she physically resisted and told him no.

Read for clarity, people. Don't twist the facts to try to excuse the rapist.

Posted by ks on January 7, 2009 at 6:11 PM · Report

188

Where do you see "asking for it," mrc-?? At the point she finally stops saying no? Or because she had a few beers? Or because she went to a party at all?
"She didn't fight hard enough" is not "asking for it." If someone put a clip through your walls one night and you died because you hadn't thought to put a steel plate beside your bed, does that mean you actually wanted to be dead?

Posted by pistwoman on January 7, 2009 at 6:18 PM · Report

189

184 comments. I didn't read half of them but WOW.

I feel for this girl because unfortunately I can see how it happens. I've had ex boyfriends try to squeeeeeze their way back into...er...ME and I've shut them down. I also know how alcohol works, and how it makes you BLAME YOURSELF for shit beyond your control.

I understand your boyfriend's reaction in a sense, because if the roles were reversed I would be horrified if he (even inadvertently) had sex with someone else. I can't lie, I understand that jealously no matter what.

But you were, were, WERE taken advantage of and I hope you can realize that. I'm so sorry for you, and I may love Dan for calling out your ex's bullshit when you didn't have the heart to. Stay strong, and if/when you see your ex again, HUMILIATE HIM if it's the only thing possible. Ugh, I feel for you.

Posted by !!! on January 7, 2009 at 6:18 PM · Report

190

my question DREAD, are you dating a muslim?

just wondering.

Posted by theoutlawjessejames on January 7, 2009 at 6:25 PM · Report

191

Profjezebel - with all due respect, if you were a virgin then the same thing didn't happen to you.

DREAD is apparently quite experienced and happy with sex...and this was with an ex-boyfriend with which she had a previous sexual relationship.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 7, 2009 at 7:19 PM · Report

192

It is shocking to me the presumption of guilt against the guy. If a man is accused of rape, well then, it must be true. It is simply impossible that the woman could be being less than honest with her current boyfriend and perhaps even herself.

And how much do we know about the story? That her ex-boyfriend aggressively hit on her after they had been drinking and she gave in. Maybe he raped her, but Jesus Christ, how about some doubt?! We have absolutely no idea of anything about this girl!

Posted by clembot on January 7, 2009 at 7:25 PM · Report

193

There are some people who keep making some rather extreme comparisons to such violent acts as murder, battery and forced stranger rape aggravated with the use of a weapon.

These are not comparable to this situation as it has been presented here by DREAD. So far, the most serious consequences she has expressed being afraid of are making a scene and hurting someone's feelings.

By all means, if you are assaulted with violence and intent to hurt you and you are unprepared to defend yourself, I wouldn't recommend getting killed in an effort to protect an asset like a purse, or even yourself - especially if you have children to raise - if you are even capable of making a rational decision not to resist under the circumstances.

Fight or Flight is an instinct - stronger in some than others. I am not a fighter, I have never started a fight in my life. I have been attacked three times in my life and have swiftly de-animated the person instinctually....don't ask me how. Once I literally just stepped aside as the guy dove at me, I was standing with my back to my car, and I somehow just grabbed the back of his hood as he went by me and "helped" him headfirst into the passenger window...bashing his head. He was done. His friends, however, were grabbing me just as the police pulled up - I swear!

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 7, 2009 at 7:29 PM · Report

194

A few years ago, I was going through a promiscuous phase and was open to casual sex with people I didn't know or majorly dig. Anyway, I started seeing this guy, and on about the 5th or 6th time we got together, I only wanted to hang out and sleep, not have sex. I told him "I don't want to." He pestered me and I was tired and exhausted. I considered snapping and causing a confrontation. But then I thought, I don't know this guy well, I'm alone in his apartment late at night without a safe way home. And I became afraid that perhaps he might be a rapist. I didn't want to find out, so I gave in and let him have sex with me. Then in the morning he dropped me off at the station and I politely told him that he had been an asshole and that he wouldn't be seeing me again. I chose to have consensual sex to avoid the trauma that I would endure if he did turn out to be a rapist. The fact that he wasn't sensitive to my desire to not have sex and persisted in pestering me is what gave me the fear that he might actually be a rapist. And if I'd known that he was such an asshole, I never would have gone back to his apartment.

Posted by Sacha on January 7, 2009 at 7:30 PM · Report

195

Two things:

The vast, VAST majority of rapes and sexual assaults do not involve the use of a weapon. Something like 75% are committed by an acquaintance of the victim's, but even a large number of stranger-rapes don't involve a weapon. (http://www.rainn.org/get-information/sta…)

For those of you complaining that DREAD didn't fight back hard enough to suit you - After I was raped, my counselor (highly recommend therapy) told me something very helpful: if you're here today to talk about it, if you got through the assault in one piece, then whatever you did was the right thing. DREAD, don't beat yourself up. You have some hard days ahead of you, but you are not alone and you will get through this.

Posted by SaraLaffs on January 7, 2009 at 7:37 PM · Report

196

No one ever asks for it, you sick fuck. Like Dan said, mixed messages are pumped into women's heads from very early on -- and in this case, they had a very bad result.

Posted by Zack Dergen on January 7, 2009 at 7:38 PM · Report

197

A few years ago, I was going through a promiscuous phase and was open to casual sex with people I didn't know or majorly dig. Anyway, I started seeing this guy, and on about the 5th or 6th time we got together, I only wanted to hang out and sleep, not have sex. I told him "I don't want to." He pestered me and I was tired and exhausted. I considered snapping and causing a confrontation. But then I thought, I don't know this guy well, I'm alone in his apartment late at night without a safe way home. And I became afraid that perhaps he might be a rapist. I didn't want to find out, so I gave in and let him have sex with me. Then in the morning he dropped me off at the station and I politely told him that he had been an asshole and that he wouldn't be seeing me again. I chose to have consensual sex to avoid the trauma that I would endure if he did turn out to be a rapist. The fact that he wasn't sensitive to my desire to not have sex and persisted in pestering me is what gave me the fear that he might actually be a rapist. And if I'd known that he was such an asshole, I never would have gone back to his apartment.

Posted by Sacha on January 7, 2009 at 7:55 PM · Report

198

"mixed messages are pumped into women's heads from very early on -- and in this case, they had a very bad result.
Posted by Zack Dergen"

So, in essence women are not competent because they've been collectively brainwashed? I don't believe that, and I think its offensive for SNAG's (sensitive new age guys) to go around saying that.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 7, 2009 at 7:58 PM · Report

199

SaraLaffs - you, like a lot of people commenting here, have missed some important aspects of this when you say that her decision not to fight was the right one.

First, I don't think she needed to "fight" and she has not said she was afraid of being killed, she was afraid of having to leave the party early and embarrass the ex-boyfriend in front of people.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 7, 2009 at 8:00 PM · Report

200

How come no one mentioned calling the rape crisis center? They could also help the current bf understand the situation better, besides helping her deal with the trauma.

Posted by annsunny on January 7, 2009 at 8:23 PM · Report

201

I don't know what side to take on DREAD's case. I can understand her side, somewhat, and I can understand her boyfriend's side, somewhat.

I mean, she was raped, there's no doubt about it(according to her story), but she could have done something. I mean, she was outside of a party, I'm certain if she had screamed or something the bastard would have gotten scared and ran off, and if not, someone would have heard. I can't really say what I would do in a similar situation, so who knows.

But, I can see it from the side of the boyfriend too. Your girlfriend calls you, after a night of drinking, and tells you her ex boyfriend and she just slept together, but that he took advantage of her. I would find that hard to believe myself.

It would definitely be a hard case to prove. One's judgment can go out the window when drinking.

There are three sides to the story. His, hers and the truth. Maybe he did rape her, maybe he didn't, who knows.

I think, what makes it hard for me to accept, is that she would tell her boyfriend, but doesn't want to report it to the police or anyone. If I was the boyfriend, I would be wondering, why tell me, but you won't go to the police?

I wouldn't want to be any one of the three in this situation.

Posted by rogueslayer0 on January 7, 2009 at 8:27 PM · Report

202

If I were DREAD's other half I'd have taken the "Beat the motherfucker to death" option within the first hour of her telling me...

Posted by Sunyavadin on January 7, 2009 at 8:40 PM · Report

203

I'm with ferretrick. You were raped. you turned to your boyfriend for emotional support. And he said WHAT!? Sheesh, find yourself a better quality boyfriend.

Posted by Puzzlegal on January 7, 2009 at 8:51 PM · Report

204

Three things:

1)I have had drilled into my head since I was old enough to recognize my own hard-on, (I'm now 39) "No means no." We need to supplement that simple phrase with "Yes-and-ONLY-Yes means yes," and drill it likewise into people's heads. Until you get the green light, do NOT proceed. (Having someone give you a safeword is a green light; otherwise, stop.)

2)Of all the failures of the ignorance-only sex-ed curriculum, this may be the worst. We can't teach people to protect themselves from sexual assaults if we can't talk about sex at all.

3) rbryanh's suggestion that women learn to make non-emergency ruckuses on street corners, ("I hate winter!" shouted at the tops of their lungs...) to uninhibit them when they REALLY need to shout, may be the best advice ever, for women *and* men.

Posted by Kevbar on January 7, 2009 at 9:04 PM · Report

205

Nice to know that even victims of rape aren't above shaming people whose rapes they don't deem as 'real' as theirs. Molested by an uncle? Hope you don't mind being called out by someone raped by a machete in Darfur. Because, you know, you don't deserve to call yours rape. God, what a fucking dick you must be.

Posted by Jaks on January 7, 2009 at 9:14 PM · Report

206

With a couple hundred comments already, this might have already been said, but here goes:

Concerning your advice to DREAD, I agree with everything you said, except your harshness towards the NEW boyfriend. As I understand it, a lot of guys in his situation are also the victim. His girlfriend was raped and there's nothing he can do about it. Boyfriends want nothing more than to feel that they are able to protect their girlfriends. Her getting raped I'm sure makes him feel incredibly helpless and angry. He's coping with it by blaming her.

Now, please understand, this is by no means acceptable for him to do. He clearly needs to seek some counseling and learn to deal with this. His girlfriend getting raped is by no means a knock against him as a man. When he comes around to understand this, I think he'll (and they as a couple) will be okay.

Posted by Jeff on January 7, 2009 at 9:17 PM · Report

207

'My bottom line message is that even though DREAD was raped, she was also being unfaithful to her current boyfriend in how she ended up in the situation in the first place.'

Wow Psilly Cybin, you must have been the worst rape counselor ever. Kind of like that OBGYN who mutilated and raped all those patients a while back. Or any priest who let molesters continue on dicking little kids within the church. ABorderline evil, I'd say, because you worked under the guise of being a helper and confidante. Do us all a favor and go live under a bridge. Now.

Posted by Dr. Kri on January 7, 2009 at 9:18 PM · Report

208

In the 1970s, women were often instructed to always comply with a rapists demands rather than fight. Interesting how much that's changed...

Posted by Laurel on January 7, 2009 at 9:21 PM · Report

209

The context for this whole thing is vitally important. If, at this moment, I was walking down the street and some aggressive stranger threatened me and dragged me off into a dark alley, I would go ballistic on his ass. He would be able to rape me only if he used excessive force, knocked me unconscious or killed me. However, what DREAD describes is a different case entirely.

If I was tipsy (not too observant, not thinking terribly clearly) and all of a sudden a walk to the car with an ex/friend got scary, my reaction would be quite different. Presumably, DREAD used to trust this ex; he was, after all, her boyfriend. In a moment of poor mental clarity, such unexpected and personal violence must have been incredibly surreal. When people are overwhelmed by uncertainty and are forced to make an important decision quickly, a natural reaction is to freeze. If you can't process the information coming at you, let alone decide between fight and flight, freezing is an understandable response.

This is by no means a clear-cut situation, so stop treating it like one. She was raped, she wasn't raped, she should have been more forceful, should have yelled, shouldn't have trusted him, she gave unclear signals, she wanted him, her intent to resist was obvious, the current boyfriend was a dick, the current boyfriend had an overblown, irrational reaction to an emotionally charged event, he was just being protective -- there are many conflicting viewpoints here, most of them valid. The fact is that something happened. It happened quickly. What exactly transpired and what the motives were are muddled. It's hard to make sense of this. Perhaps we should leave it to DARE to figure out what really happened (should she choose to do so) and concentrate instead on how we can help her decide where she wants to go from here.

More...

Posted by shades of grey on January 7, 2009 at 9:43 PM · Report

210

Reading between the lines of DREAD's letter, here's what I think really happened: she got drunk at a party she went to by herself, ran into her ex, things got a little hot and heavy. He wanted to go all the way, she said, "No, I can't. I'm seeing someone else now..." but they both knew those were just empty words. She wanted it, he wanted it, they got it. After her current bf got angry because she had sex with someone else, she said it was rape and sent a letter to Dan Savage to "prove" her sincerity. Everyone (and I mean everyone) knows that girls who cheat on the boyfriends say shit like that all the time just so their conscience doesn't bother them when they're cumming with another guy's dick in their cunts.

Posted by I know you liked it on January 7, 2009 at 9:46 PM · Report

211

I've reported this one as abusive.

Posted by Sacha on January 7, 2009 at 10:09 PM · Report

212

Disagree with people saying that the current boyfriend should show DREAD more empathy. Having sex with people to avoid discomfort or hurt feelings is not good, or at least not helpful to committed relationships. DREAD doesn't deserve her boyfriend's love and support on this one.

Yes, DREAD, your ex pretty much raped you, but it was the kind of "pretty much" where your boyfriend (who you talk about marrying? ...) needs to live with the expectation that if you go to a party without him, you'll end up out in the street, saying "no, I can't" before bending over the hood of your car. That's a miserable thing to think about someone who you're supposed to trust.

("I can't" is frequently used as a way to say "I would, if I were single." Maybe DREAD knew that. If she had had the strength to say "Stop," or anything unambiguous...)

Posted by notake k. on January 7, 2009 at 10:40 PM · Report

213

Psilly, I don't think DREAD ever said she was hesitant to leave the party early for fear of embarrassment. I think what she said was that she wasn't in a condition to drive when the assault occurred and wanted to wait until she could drive home safely. You seem to have a tendency to make "truths" through tenacity. You just repeat something until people accept it.

Posted by Psilly is pstupid on January 7, 2009 at 10:49 PM · Report

214

To notake k.

Is "No" unambiguous enough for your liking?

Posted by littlepiggy on January 7, 2009 at 10:56 PM · Report

215

I think it's funny that with all this going on and on about was it or wasn't it rape.. no one seems to remember that if consent is impaired by alcohol or drugs, that it is automatically considered rape by law because clear-headed consent could not be given. In fact, most guys I know are very careful about sleeping with women who are drunk because of the concern that she will turn around later and feel as if she didn't give consent.

This particular situation, was acquaintance rape. The victim knew her attacker, attempted to stop him, said no multiple times, and NEVER said yes. Her ability to give consent was impaired, and she said no repeatedly which means that there was no consent given in the first place.

No means no, folks. Unless no means yes and your safe-word is something like fire hydrant, but then it's preplanned...

Posted by no means no! on January 8, 2009 at 1:02 AM · Report

216

Whoa. I don't know what to say, guys, but some of you is whacked!

I have only personally known one person who was raped, but it was a complete effing nightmare. While I was not in the same room as her while it was happening, that doesn't mean I do not know how uninvited and, I guess, rapey, it was. The girl was so drunk, she couldn't talk, she couldn't say no. She had bruises the next day. She was too terrified to speak up about it, to have a rape kit performed. It was her boss.

The way I understand freedom is the ability to do whatever you want to do, as long as it is of no physical or emotional consequence to another party, whenever you want to. My friend wanted to get drunk one night. She did, and then she got raped. It is not her fault, it is all on the hands of the rapist.

I applaud DREAD for being able to speak up, articulately and intelligently. She, as everyone else has failed to notice, is 18 years old. She is trying to make smart choices about how to proceed with her life after a
REALLY FUCKING TRAUMATIZING event, and I am really moved by her courage, let alone her ability to even speak after having this shit happen to her.

Additionally, I think it is super fucked up that a good portion of comments on here are pissing contests about who has sustained the most trauma in their lives. No one still standing does not have some shitty thing in their past. Instead of being 15, and arguing over who has the-worst-life-ever, why don't we just fucking show some empathy when something shitty happens and agree that it's fucked up and do what we can to make sure we're not producing more rapists, murderers, sociopaths, etc.

Posted by abigail on January 8, 2009 at 1:29 AM · Report

217

Um...See, I would have a lot more respect for "DREAD" if she hadn't read these comments and then posted her own comments in relation to her side of the story, etc...Going on to post on the board that her current boyfriend has cheated on her a few times? Now that's just superfluous and it becomes a cry for both attention and sympathy. I felt sympathy for the horrible thing that happened, yes, but honey, go see a psychiatrist. It'll do you a world of good, and help get you back to where you need to go.

In the mean time, yes, go and beat the shit out of the guy that took advantage of you. Seriously. No court will convict you, no person will judge you.

And the other letter, I'm on the fence. I like bigger guys, so I wouldn't mind if my partner was bigger than me. As cheesy as it sounds, at the end of the day, the heart and brain are what'll get you through a relationship more then a six pack. That said, attraction is important, and without it, can whittle away your sex life. Argh.

Posted by Grant on January 8, 2009 at 2:22 AM · Report

218

Yeah. Silly woman, being born with a vagina. Next time you'll think twice about that, young lady!

Posted by MarcParis on January 8, 2009 at 3:36 AM · Report

219

Poster kennyg said that 9 out of 10 women say no when getting close to sex. I'd say he either has a problem with his approach or with his hygiene!

DREAD was unambiguously raped; however, I have long thought there needs to be a term for the kind of gray-area experience many of my friends and I have had. Perhaps "yuckfuck" does indeed fit the bill.

Posted by J on January 8, 2009 at 5:32 AM · Report

220

I'd like to point out that a large number of the comments in this thread are why DREAD would have absolutely no luck going to the police.

"No" is not only "no" when it's accompanied by groin-shots and pepper sprays, people.

Posted by Robin G. on January 8, 2009 at 5:49 AM · Report

221

How the FUCK was she asking for it? Listen, DREAD, honey; I've been in a similar situation, and I can totally empathize. To the rest of you assholes who think "she had it coming," in case you didn't get it enough from her heartbreaking letter, let me tell you that in situations like that, it's really tough to think. Your fear paralyzes you in those situations, and plus, I'm presuming that this guy was significantly stronger than DREAD, which obviously contributes to the fear and immobility. Moreover, let me just say that you don't need a guy in your life like your boyfriend who is single-minded that he can't see that his alleged love-of-his-life was traumatized and needs his support.

psilly and mrclean, go get yourselves some fucking sensitivity courses and learn to be human.

I'm with Ferretrick; DREAD, go see a therapist, like, yesterday, and for God's sake, DTMFA.

Posted by NewEnglandBeerBitch on January 8, 2009 at 6:03 AM · Report

222

I was sexually assaulted when I was five years old, and even at that age I had people telling me I hadn't done enough to prevent it. Don't listen to any of that nonsense, DREAD.

Posted by T.U.M. on January 8, 2009 at 6:05 AM · Report

223

Many many many of the women I know have similar rape stories. It's not uncommon to be raped like this, especially when you're young, and it can take a long time to recognize it as what it is -- rape. Just because you didn't scream and try to beat him to death with your purse doesn't mean you weren't raped. Rape through pressure and intimidation is still rape. Acknowledge it to yourself and stop apologizing to your boyfriend. He won't understand until you stop telling him you're sorry and start at least acting like you're blaming the rapist, not yourself.
And hang in there -- you're not alone.

Posted by cgc on January 8, 2009 at 6:34 AM · Report

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LTR.. BBW.. ? Anyway to explain the acronyms on the same page? Maybe a link, or rollover - or a space in the margins. Just a thought.

Posted by Dafted on January 8, 2009 at 6:54 AM · Report

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I've been hesitant for years to label a similar incident "rape" - because, yeah, capitulation can look and sound like consent. But, like DREAD, I didn't consent, I just gave up. In my case, at least, there was definitely an issue of no self-respect - I don't know about DREAD. But it was spooky reading her description - I'd been in a house, not by a car, but otherwise, it was just like what happened to me - the nos, the trying to stay dressed...

Afterwards, I knew I didn't have a case to go to the cops with. But I told one of my male friends, who offered to round up as many of HIS friends as possible to go beat the shit out of the asshole who coerced me. Unfortunately, I wasn't sure that it was a good idea, so the jerk escaped a beating. But he ended up quitting his job and moving because he flinched every time he got the death-glare from someone who had heard the story.

As for DREAD's boyfriend... He sounds more like a possessive dickweed who's pissed that someone else touched his property, or that his girlfriend didn't respect his property rights, than he's upset that his girlfriend was assaulted. What the fuck? DREAD, dump this idiot. He's just going to make you feel guilty forever, and you have nothing to feel guilty about.

But a little like the third-rail guy in the second response, I feel like I brought what happened to me on myself. I was angry at myself for being so fucking stupid and weak. But I had to realize that I was NOT guilty of making the other guy DO anything - that was all his own personal assholery. Anyway, over it now, married and happy - to a guy who, when I told the story, wanted to go back and beat the guy up.

Posted by Kate on January 8, 2009 at 6:59 AM · Report

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DREAD - you were raped. Period. You should scream that at the top of your lungs and definitely tell everyone that knows the ex that he raped you. And obviously he is the ex for a reason? As for the current boyfriend he needs to be supportive and not blame you. And for mrclean - no means NO. Period. End of sentence. No more need be said. The ex was at fault for not listening to the no and deciding that what he wanted was to rape his ex. Now you need to go for counseling DREAD and you need support. You need to know this is not your fault. You said no. And maybe some self defense classes would be good. Because then if you ever find yourself in a situation where you feel powerless you can threaten to remove body parts and then make good on it :) A knee to the testicles takes the wind out of any blowhard's sails ;) And reaching down, grabbing hold of all the parts exposed and twisting is also extremely effective. Find ways to take care of yourself DREAD and find ways to take back your power.

Posted by Sapphire on January 8, 2009 at 7:07 AM · Report

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Forgot to add to my earlier comment - my parents bought into the whole "You can never win the case in court, so it's not worth the effort and potential trauma of going to the police" thing.

So not true. It would have sped up the healing process a lot for me; sweeping it all under the carpet just made it feel more like *I* had something to be ashamed of.

Posted by T.U.M. on January 8, 2009 at 7:16 AM · Report

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NewEnglandBeerBitch - I'm as sensitive as I plan on getting.

I don't think anyone said she was "asking for it" and anyway, your totally trying to change the dynamic.

No, this was a situation where drunken messing around behind the boyfriend's back went too far, farther than DREAD wanted, and the boyfriend has no reason to be sympathetic and he's the one who should DTMFA.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 8, 2009 at 8:03 AM · Report

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Great answer, Dan - absence of "yes" means "no" to most people. I think mrclean is baiting the rest of us, and hope the rest of you ignore him/her.

Posted by Ivanhoe on January 8, 2009 at 8:05 AM · Report

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she was not asking to be raped, it happened, most likely faster than she could have reacted if she wasn't buzzed. report the EX, lose the boyfriend. A few years ago, I started to put on weight, My BF simply told me he didn't find it attractive so I did something about it. For unrelated reasons the relationship didn't last but now I am in good shape and dating a total hottie. So you never know.
If your friend got cancer from smoking, would you turn your back on him/her? If so, you are a loser.
Dan, you rock!

Posted by peacefrog on January 8, 2009 at 8:08 AM · Report

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Psilly is pstupid - actually, she has given more than one reason for not ultimately stopping her ex-boyfriend, but I'll take your challenge any day - I'd rather walk home, drive drunk, walk into a house full of strangers, or run screaming - than have sex with someone I didn't want to have sex with.

Truth is, she slept with her ex-boyfriend even though she didn't want to.

Question is - what does her current boyfriend owe her.

Answer is - nothing.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 8, 2009 at 8:09 AM · Report

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Actually Dr. Kri, I was the best rape-counselor ever because I can listen, read the script, not judge the person and separate what I think from what I have to do.... In any case, comparing me to someone who mutilates people and so on is just pathetic...

At the end of the day it is impossible to escape the fact the DREAD's actions preceding the rape were unfaithful to her boyfriend and he has a right to be upset about that.... her need to be comforted for the rape that happened to her is separate from his need to resolve her cheating issue. He will never get to resolve the cheating issue because she will never get out from the trauma of the rape issue...

I think they should go their separate ways....but when push comes to shove and I have to make a choice, the current boyfriend is the most innocent of the three people involved...so he should just walk first.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 8, 2009 at 8:17 AM · Report

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For the girl that was raped, I would suggest going to the police anyway...sure, they may not have enough evidence, but they won't know that until after they investigate and ask him a million questions in some very uncomfortable circumstances,not to mention document this incident.

Sure, if hes a total creep, he may feel like he got away with something, but he will know with no doubt where the line is, and if he has any sense, he will leave this victim alone...forever.

Posted by nkdpagan on January 8, 2009 at 8:20 AM · Report

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Psilly - you just said it yourself: It went further than she wanted. What do we call that?

Posted by Elf on January 8, 2009 at 8:47 AM · Report

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ferretrick, it's unreasonable to say that the woman has little self respect. Condemning her for not fighting back is just as damaging to a rape victim as telling her she was asking for it. Men can overpower women physically and psychologically, and because rape is such a traumatizing situation, otherwise strong, capable women are rendered powerless. You can't blame her for not fighting back. The only thing you can do to support this woman is to blame her rapist, because once he got it into his head to rape her, HE was the only person in that situation that could stop it from happening. You say she should figure out why she has such little respect that she "begs forgiveness from another who blames [her] for GETTING RAPED" but you're also victim blaming in another, unreasonable way.
Educate yourself on the proper way to treat rape victims before you give them advice.
She should seek therapy or rape survivor support groups only to help her get over this traumatizing experience, because her boyfriend, the one who should be helping her through it, is victimizing her further by blaming her. NOT because she has such little self respect that she "lets" herself get raped. Piss off.

Posted by bashy on January 8, 2009 at 9:22 AM · Report

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Psilly is reacting to false dichotomies about sex. Psilly, you're playing the game as if it were real. You've got hangups about what things are supposed to mean and actual reality.

You're "supposed to" be stronger and be able to overtake her, rather than the dick she was raped by? She's "supposed to" only have sex with you, whether she wants to or not? Ask yourself what you really want, rather than what everyone else is "supposed" to be for you. Do you love your girlfriend? Does she love you? Did she tell you what happened to her because she thought you would support her or because you're "supposed to?" as her boyfriend? Maybe she's the one who should look at what she really wants and be realistic about who you really are.

Posted by Hellbound Alleee on January 8, 2009 at 9:29 AM · Report

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Hmm...some successful trolls in here today.

Posted by emote_control on January 8, 2009 at 9:29 AM · Report

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Wow, talking about rape really brings out the asshole in people.

"Silence means consent" I'll take comfort in that, next time I'm raped during a bout of strep.

"'She let him finish' means consent"
Uh, her exact words were "I figured the easiest way to get out of this situation was to let him finish." Yeah, cause I know my favorite thing to do during consensual sex is get out of it as soon as possible.

"'I can't' really means 'I'd like to, but...'"
Ahh yes, the 10th rule of dating or whatever nonsense. Personally, when a girl says no 8 or 9 times, the suspicion enters my mind, 'maybe she's not that into me.' Naah, she finally shut up already - time to start fucking.

"She was asking for it"
Oh yes, clearly they were kinksters, and they had a cool little code, where "No" means "This scene is sooo hot!" DREAD just forgot to mention this somehow. And also didn't mention when they negotiated it. Ironically, the safeword was "On second thought, why not start fucking me."

Last, but not least "You didn't get raped as forcefully as me, so you're a pansie, and it wasn't really rape."

Ah, feminism. Now, women are free to be hypocritical cockwads, just like men! That line of thinking, right there, is probably what made Psilly such a great rape counselor: "Guess what: you weren't raped!" "Really, wow! I feel much better now!"

On a serious note, DREAD (and others in similar situations): I feel for you. Don't accept that kind of treatment, not from anyone. But also, I hope you can take comfort that all men aren't such cocks.

Posted by CB on January 8, 2009 at 9:33 AM · Report

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To all those who seem to think DREAD is responsible for her attack- FUCK YOURSELVES!
You can't possibly understand the shock and disbelief that permeates every fiber of your being in the moment that you realize that someone you trust has suddenly become an assailant.... Sadly, women ARE conditioned from early childhood to be sweet, gentle and non-confrontational and as a result, many women freeze in moments of intense fear.
When I was raped, I was screaming bloody murder inside my head, but my throat was paralyzed- all I could get out were whispers and whimpers and I'm not typically much of a shrinking violet.

Thank you, Dan, for your response to this young lady.

Posted by LeBeau on January 8, 2009 at 9:37 AM · Report

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No one askes to be raped for real. No always means no. It should not take physical force to enforce the "no" given.

Posted by Suedoenimm on January 8, 2009 at 9:39 AM · Report

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what a complete asshole for raping you. still. if I was your boyfriend I'd dump you. nobody wants to have to babysit their girlfriend who can't stand up to every jerkoff who comes hitting on you for sex, and then to hear "oh i was drunk". you should have kicked him in the balls

Posted by ballsmack on January 8, 2009 at 9:46 AM · Report

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Holy shit, are you kidding me? Choosing to get out of a situation in the safest way possible is NOT the same as consent. The next time someone mugs you at gunpoint, you deserve to have your belongings taken unless you are able to fight him off. Fuck all you bastards.

Posted by meg on January 8, 2009 at 9:47 AM · Report

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and by the way, NO means NO. A woman should not have to rip a guy's testicles off for him to understand the message. A woman should not have to physically "stand up" to a person who is in all likelihood stronger than herself in order to assert her sexual authority. If this girl's boyfriend can't understand that, he is just as bad as the asshole who raped her.

Posted by meg on January 8, 2009 at 9:51 AM · Report

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What's seroconversion?

Posted by thesameone on January 8, 2009 at 9:52 AM · Report

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Asking for it? What the fuck is that? No one ever "asks" to be raped, you idiot. Drinking is not an invitation to be raped. Being alone is not an invitation to be raped. What the fuck is wrong with you?

Posted by marmac on January 8, 2009 at 9:59 AM · Report

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DREAD is 18 - that's young. She was tipsy, and she didn't know how to deal with the ex (she obviously still doesn't, but at least she's asking for advice). How can ANYONE say that she was unfaithful (Psilly Cybin) or that she was asking for it (Mrclean) ?!? In my mind, these two are "asking for it". How would THEY feel if they were raped? Do they think they should be dumped by their partner for it? Would they say they deserved it?

Posted by Ricardo on January 8, 2009 at 10:01 AM · Report

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yelling "rape" might have worked instead of just giving up cuz you're sick of pulling your pants back up. come on. I'd dump her. but then again I like confident women

Posted by ballsmack on January 8, 2009 at 10:03 AM · Report

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Dread said "No" repeatedly, and no one on this board disputes that fact. Why are you idiots (those of you who are) rationalizing her ex's actions after he plainly heard her say "no?" That's sick and twisted.

This was not like a glass of wine and a "massage," or a "I miss you so much; can we do it once more?" It is about HIS actions, and he -- and you -- should know that it is not okay to physically coerce someone into having sex, which is exactly what he did. That's the end of the argument. It doesn't matter what she was thinking, or what she secretly wanted, whether he's her ex or her current "friend," or whether she is Jenna Jameson or Mother Theresa. There's no grey area. No YUCKFUCK. No code words needed. It's about HIM. When a girl says no, you stop.

Posted by robt vesco, jr on January 8, 2009 at 10:05 AM · Report

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On you recent submission by DREAD, I have to disagree with your response. It's easy to point the entire blame and appoint date rape-ish!

I question why she could simply say "Stop! Get the fuck off of me!" or worse - simply kicked him in his groin or simply shouted. They were still friendly she quips... sounds like the beers that make her "tipsy" were bringing back some emotional love in...

I think she didn't protest enough!

xo
Rants, Thoughts & Merde
http://rantsthoughtsmerde.blogspot.com/2…

Posted by NativeNYker on January 8, 2009 at 10:06 AM · Report

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Hellbound Alleee - I don't know what you're babbling about:

"Psilly is reacting to false dichotomies about sex. Psilly, you're playing the game as if it were real. You've got hangups about what things are supposed to mean and actual reality."

This string of words does not mean anything, what are you trying to say?

What I am trying to say is that DREAD's experience was that of rape, and her boyfriend's experience is that of being cheated on, and then having to support his cheating girlfriend because the cheating ended in rape.

Is that clear enough for you?

Another thing that has become clear is that DREAD's way of describing what happened here (and this is the fun part, because she DID write her experience down and submit it for this exact process via a syndicated advice column that has a comments section online....) is bothering even some people who have also been raped.

So, get off your high horse and quit lumping everyone in the same group who doesn't agree with you.

Oh, and don't try using words like "dichotomies" until you learn how to properly.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 8, 2009 at 10:06 AM · Report

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The following comment, by Reasonable Person, "All these 'she consented' arguments are completely missing the point. Under that logic, a woman who is raped at gunpoint 'consented' to intercourse. After all, she could have 'decided' to get shot in the head instead. Indeed, there are men and women who would rather die than be raped. Does that mean that everyone who gave in 'consented' to sex?

What about a 'choice' between forced sex and a four-week hospital stay? A 'choice' between forced sex and broken ribs? A 'choice' between forced sex and multiple cuts and bruises? The line isn't drawn where *you* would acquiesce; it's where *she* acquiesced. Because a 'choice' between two shitty options-- one of which you are being threatened with-- is not a choice at all." is the best of all these.
And I appreciated all the other comments from people who've experienced similar horrible things, from being molested on the bus to actual rape. It IS a horrible thing, and the suffering IS more mental than physical, as one poster noted.

Posted by olderworker on January 8, 2009 at 10:07 AM · Report

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I wouldn't want to go out with a girl who's pants come off so easily.

Posted by dunbar on January 8, 2009 at 10:07 AM · Report

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mrclean- are you mentally handicapped? no girl or woman is asking for it unless she's made some Palahniuk-esque arrangement. Are you suggesting that she was asking for it because she was tipsy and around an ex? That's ridiculous. I am very friendly with almost all of my exes and get inebriated with them a heck of a lot. I've even gone on long roadtrips with one, just the two of us. However, they know not to cross a line. The poor girl just wanted her phone, not to be violated.

Posted by misfittoys on January 8, 2009 at 10:14 AM · Report

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I'll bet if you asked, you'd find that nearly every woman you know has been raped by their ex or a date at some time in their life.

Posted by MW on January 8, 2009 at 10:25 AM · Report

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If it gives her courage, she should take a print out of Dan's response with her to her confrontation, or include it in her letter (I strongly favor face to face; its going to be good for her) along with some ofhte best comments. Especially the first one from rey rayton about this guy being a pussy.

Posted by Bordercolliesrule on January 8, 2009 at 10:34 AM · Report

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And here I've always thought that hitting on someone meant a smooth line or seductive glance.

Yanking down my pants or pulling out a cock would be assault, not an appropriate sexual overture.

He assaulted her multiple times and she finally gave in.

Also:

Seroconversion: means now test positive for antibodies to HIV
LTR: Long term relationship

You know what, we need to have a question for jurors in rape trials about whether they understand that no means no. Get all those who can't understand this concept out of the jury pool straight off.

Posted by SpookyCat on January 8, 2009 at 10:39 AM · Report

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This happened to me and it's taken 5 years of therapy to get past it.

Fuck anyone who says that this girl wanted it, or that she cheated on her boyfriend. Also, fuck anyone who says that she should have kicked him or fought harder or protested more. You don't know; you haven't been in that situation, so you don't know. She reacted the way she thought was best or most appropriate. Doesn't change the fact that HE RAPED HER.

DREAD--I'd suggest you seek counseling from a therapist or support group. The one I am in has helped me immensely.

Posted by anon on January 8, 2009 at 11:06 AM · Report

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No, no means no. god, poor thing, honey you need to go see someone. Is this the only time you were not able to stick up for yourself? There is no justification to someone raping you, hurting you. I also am shell shocked when someone a person i know or even a stranger is aggressive, mean, or scary. People can speculate about what they would have done, but sometimes the reality is much more complicated. It is not right, but life is full of these things. He raped you, he needs to understand how bad he has hurt you, if he doesn't understand already. having your friends, parents come with you; be in the same room while you make a phone call can help you, do it. Not everyone will act like your boyfriend, there is suport out there. Trust other people to have your back and help you.

Posted by TEL on January 8, 2009 at 11:10 AM · Report

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No woman asks to be raped, mr(un)clean. I know you must be a man, because no woman would say that. Going to her car for her cell phone was not asking to be raped. She didn't ask for it. He took advantage of her. It makes me wonder if you assault women too, because that kind of rationalization seems to be how dumb fucks like you make it ok in their tiny brains to hurt people.

Posted by strongwoman on January 8, 2009 at 11:30 AM · Report

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I love all these people with their "No means no" bullshit. How many people here can honestly say they've never said no, never pushed someone away, never made excuses why they couldn't, when really they wanted their partner to not give up so easily, to show a little persistence of desire to make them feel loved and wanted? Sometimes it's just a kiss, sometimes it's a quickie, sometimes it's something a little more exotic like anal, and you get bonus points for times when your partner couldn't take the hint and you resented him or her for it.

I've done it more times than I can remember. Every girl I've ever dated did it more than once. Everyone I've ever talked to about sex has done it, and most of them remembered a time when it had been done to them. I don't have any statistics on what percent of the time this is the case, but very frequently no really does mean "Please show me you love me."

Also, to the legal non-genius who says that having sex with a drunk person is always rape, I advise you not to quick your day job (unless your day job is a lawyer, in which case you do need to find a new line of work). In every jurisdiction I'm aware of, having sex with someone who's intoxicated with drugs or alcohol but fully conscious is only rape if the person having sex with them is responsible for getting them intoxicated in the first place.

Posted by If you were right, I'd have been raped ~50 times already on January 8, 2009 at 11:43 AM · Report

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It is NEVER futile to press charges. Even though they will not get anywhere, calling the cops and filing a report and making his ass pay, even in some small way, for the despicable and inexcusable thing he did, will help you heal, and will hopefully prevent him from doing the same thing to anybody else. Please, please, please press charges.

Posted by get the bastard on January 8, 2009 at 12:02 PM · Report

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Sometimes just trying to convince a guy to wear a condom is hard, so I can't imagine trying to convince a guy not to date-rape you once he's determined to so isn't a piece of cake either. And its not her fault. One thing that I have learned from my past lovers/boyfriends/and straight male friends, is that most of them don't get it, don't understand the pyschological stress a woman is under when in a sexual situation (consentual or not). Even during consentual sex women will endure or tolerate certain behaviors because they want to avoid conflict. I have experienced this, and I am an up-front, rather aggressive person. When a man is over you with his dick out, doing something(s) or going to do something(s) that you don't want or are ambivalent about, its very very hard to voice your feelings. That being said, if I guy cornered me with his dick out, I would smile sweetly, then grab his junk and twist as hard as I could and run far away.

Posted by Jacqueline on January 8, 2009 at 12:18 PM · Report

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"Why do guys think that if they just pester women long enough, somehow 'no' will magically change to 'oh baby, do me'?"

Because a lot of women do change their minds. Simple. They do. Many girls do say no, but later change their minds.

Some girls say no before consensual sex without a safe word... I know, I've done it. No didn't really mean no, it meant "not here", wait...

How many of you female posters have ever said no and then changed your mind? How of you fully express your consent before sex?

I think silence gives consent because if you don't announce your wishes, then ohter people are going to assume that your wishes coincide with theirs.

Perhaps everyone should sit down and have a long serious chat before sex but that doesn't happen.

There's some middle ground between explicit nonconsent=rape, and explicit consent= consensual sex. There's body language for one, and tone of voice and many others.

What I think is really interesting is the spin different people place on this "script".

If different posters directed this rape scene, using all the same events and words, each scene would look different and some would show rape and others would show consent and some would show something in between...

To be completely honest DREAD's letter and posts aren't very clear. Her words say one thing but their connotaions say differently... And the letter is all we have to go on.

Here's a question: If a man thinks he partner consents and but she doesn't consent... is it rape?

Posted by ccouch on January 8, 2009 at 12:23 PM · Report

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um, 'unsafe sexual practices?' she did NOTHING to deserve this! yeah it was unsafe because it's RAPE, which is emotionally, mentally, physically unsafe...he didn't use a condom, she didn't want to anyways so it wouldnt really matter. i fucking hate rape apologists. i dont understand why it's so fucking difficult to understand that rape is not about sex, it's about power and violence. a person is violating someone else! RAPE! no excuses!
hang in there DREAD.

Posted by cat on January 8, 2009 at 12:33 PM · Report

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DREAD is weak and pathetic. So is her rapist. Since the second comment stands on its own I'll talk about the first.

If you're about to get raped and they're not threatening you physically - especially when they're mealy-mouthed fucks basically begging you to let them rape you - FUCKING HURT THEM.

Learn to fight, goddamnit. If you value yourself, learn to fucking fight with fists and elbows and knees. You'll be healthier physically AND ESPECIALLY MENTALLY for the effort. Ugh. You should be ashamed of yourself!

Rosa Parks thinks you're a pussy.

Posted by magpie on January 8, 2009 at 12:36 PM · Report

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so i've neer posted a comment on this before, but i was so incensed by DREAD's story, that i feel compelled to throw my support behind Urgutha Forka's idea: press charges for the mere fact that he will be fingerprinted, dna tested, and added to the system. while your charges may be dropped, hopefully the sleaze will be scared enough to change his sleazy ways. and if, god forbid, he doesn't, he will be easily apprehendable and see jail time if he ever does something like this again.

Posted by e g on January 8, 2009 at 12:39 PM · Report

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I haven't read every comment but, wow, what a response.

I won't bore you with the details of my experience but I don't think any one has mentioned something similar. I was molested by multiple people when I was a young teen, then had a similar situation as DREAD in which my virginity was taken, then later, I was attacked on the street by a stranger.

The first instance, I was young, confused, uneducated, insecure and scared and didn't do much except try and avoid the group of guys, which wasn't always possible. The second, I was trapped with the guy and used strong no's, physical rebuffs and logic to try to convince him to leave me alone and, after hours with no response to my pleas, I went numb and dissociated. The third time, I was involved in martial arts and just reacted and kicked his ass.

The third experience was the most traumatic.

That all I head to do was fight back in a small way was enough to deter the jerk was a painful revelation. I was/am part of the socialization that women shouldn't make a fuss, if my reflexes hadn't kicked in, I probably would have froze up and submitted to the creep. In the previous instances, perhaps if I had said no louder or tried to kill them or reacted in a more violent way--not the polite, feminine way that was ingrained in me--I wouldn't still be in therapy.

Regardless of the further details of DREAD's experience, questions of her character and wisdom, and judgments against the ex and the current, what the multitude of responses show is that women have a long way to go to recondition themselves against the socialization of domesticity and femininity. While there is a huge weight of responsibility on men to understand rape, not just the front page kind but the grey areas as well, and to prevent it within themselves, women need to understand their complicity in the socialization aspect--I learned my "proper role as a submissive woman" from my mother.

Ironically, she was also raped.

More...

Posted by Generational Survivor on January 8, 2009 at 12:46 PM · Report

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anon - Fuck You, alright!

She was cheating on her boyfriend, she didn't deserve to get raped. Those two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 8, 2009 at 12:49 PM · Report

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DREAD was violated.
But sick people aren't magically going obey orders of "no", regardless of the Bill of Rights.

The only rights you have are those you are willing to fight for. Let this be a lesson in vigilance. No more self-pity... take a self-defense course.

Posted by ToughLove on January 8, 2009 at 1:08 PM · Report

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call it what you want... rape, yuckfuck, ExSex...

what will DREAD do now to protect herself in the future from someone violating her personal sovereignty?

If it's not in your personality to fight back, change your personality.

Be thankful it didn't turn violent and prepare yourself for one that may.

Posted by ToughLove on January 8, 2009 at 1:12 PM · Report

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no, mrclean, women who are raped are NOT asking for it. and shame on you for even mentioning it. or are you playing the devil's douchbag?

Posted by mambosun on January 8, 2009 at 1:16 PM · Report

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Mrclean ... are you FUCKING KIDDING?

Posted by Gr8Dane on January 8, 2009 at 1:22 PM · Report

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Here's my thought on the boyfriend: If you described it to him more or less the way you described it in your letter (but less coherently, as stories tend to be in real time), I can understand his doubt. From outside the situation, there's a world of difference between "He pressured me into sex" and "He raped me." Be just as straight with him as you would be with your ex; call a spade a spade and don't be afraid to use the "R" word.

Posted by WCWedin on January 8, 2009 at 1:27 PM · Report

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In terms of DREADS situation:

I personally feel that anyone who makes an advance on someone else after hearing "no" at any volume is in the wrong. DREAD's 'giving in' after refusing her exes advances multiple times DOES NOT mean consent. Assuming her story is true as she told it, she was absolutely raped.

On the other hand, she needs to assert herself both to her current boyfriend and her ex. She certainly didn't do her best to fight her ex off during the incident--no one is arguing that. It may be that her ex was unaware that he was stepping out of bounds and that confronting him would result in a truly sincere apology. That MIGHT be the case.

Either way, she needs to make it clear to her current boyfriend that in her mind, and legally, she was raped. From the current boyfriend's point of view, without DREAD stressing her exact feelings, I can see how he might be confused about what was going on.

DREAD clearly believes it was a RAPE situation, and needs to assert herself.

Posted by Another Guy on January 8, 2009 at 1:34 PM · Report

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Asking for rape is an oxymoron.

Posted by bibi on January 8, 2009 at 1:35 PM · Report

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seroconverted - a term that is actually useful, as you can't know when the virus was contracted if all you know is when the person tested positive.

The virus incubates in different people at different rates.

Posted by word geek on January 8, 2009 at 1:36 PM · Report

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To "If you were right, I'd have been raped ~50 times already" - you're an idiot and so are the people you talk to about sex.

There's a difference between saying no and then saying yes, and just saying no over and over again.

Hopefully you know the difference.

I hope all the men who have the attitude that "some girls say no before consensual sex" read this story and all the comments by women who described similar experience and realize that many of the women they think they slept with consensually probably felt very violated by the experience. And making a comment here that girls should beat you up if they don’t really want to have sex with you because no isn’t enough, doesn’t change that fact. You're forcing yourself on women, so stop already.

Have enough self respect to sleep with women who say "Yes" or "Ok"; a "long serious chat" isn't necessary, but a simple positive affirmation is.

As much as DREAD needs to learn a lot about sex, so do the men posting here.

Posted by In Solidarity Against Creeps on January 8, 2009 at 1:37 PM · Report

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I've never said "no" when I meant "yes".

I've always said "yes" when I wanted someone. The only permissable thing to do after a "no" is to try some verbal persuasion and even then it should be limited.

It is not a sign of love and wanting to ignore "no". It's a sign of disrespect and self-centeredness.

Furthermore, in no way is it cheating to walk out to get a cellphone. Being alone with someone is not an invitation to sex. She expected him to protect her from rapists, not to be one. She didn't kiss him or flirt with him. She told him "no" and pushed him away.

Posted by SpookyCat on January 8, 2009 at 1:46 PM · Report

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My God! There is no such thing as asking for it! No one under any circumstances asks to be raped. If the phrase "no" EVER leaves a person's lips and/or they show the least tidbit of resistance, it is rape. Period.

Posted by macb238 on January 8, 2009 at 2:09 PM · Report

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WOW MRCLEAN! You're an asshole

Posted by xxx on January 8, 2009 at 2:10 PM · Report

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RE: DREAD
I'm thinking women just need to stop being such wusses. Most murdered women are killed by their male S/Os. That's a fact. Women need to date smarter, quit being so forgiving of bad behavior, quit needing to be nice no matter what, quit being worried about making scenes, DTMF sooner, buy and learn to use a gun. Raise your effing voice if a guy's doing something you don't like. At the first attempt to kiss her DREAD should not have wanted that Ex as a friend anymore.

As far as her new boy"friend" goes. She needs to learn to quit being a victim of men. Tell the guy he either believes her or joins her ex in the Asshole Male Hall of Shame.

Meanwhile, DREAD, take some fucking assertiveness classes.

Posted by Liz on January 8, 2009 at 2:12 PM · Report

282

If I, as a straight guy, told my girlfriend to lose weight or it's over, I would be branded as "asshole number one" by everyone. I sense a bit of a double standard.

Posted by pshizzy on January 8, 2009 at 2:13 PM · Report

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SpookyCat - You sure make a lot of assumptions about DREAD's conduct with regard to flirting or kissing....her own description of the events is not as clear as you portray it - that has been her problem all along - she wants the current boyfriend to act like a good guy but she probably - and totally understandably - screwed up big time while trying to explain it to him.

I hope she didn't tell him the choice was between sex with the ex, and leaving the party early, as she has asserted here at one point - if I were a boyfriend hearing that I'd just give up.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 8, 2009 at 2:31 PM · Report

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To In Solidarity Against Creeps:

I'm female and I've never been raped or assualted.

To be honest, perhaps that's why I have less sympathy for DREAD. I am pretty assertive and fairly sure I wouldn't react that way. The guys I chose to date would never try that with me and my male friends respect my bounds as well. In short, I stand up for myself. I'm a bitch.

I feel sorry for DREAD that she's emotionally traumatized but there's a limited amount I can sympathize with her because I tend to feel sympathy for people I relate too.

In today's world, not every recieves a verbal confirmation of consent before initiating sex. *shrug* That's life. Depending on her body language and their past together (which we don't know about), DREAD's ex could have mistaken her capitulation for consent. Maybe, maybe not.

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate and exploring the philosophical idea of rape.

I don't believe that feeling violated after an encounter means it was rape. When I was in my early teens, I made out with a guy who grossed me out and felt quite awful about it later. Truly, I violated myself by not asking him to stop.

I have trouble interpreting the truth of what happened that night from DREAD's words and her viewpoint alone. While she said "no, I can't" she didn't report saying "Stop or I don't want to". I think "No/ I can't" can be misinterpreted. Hell, I wasn't there, I don't know what and how it happened.

Murder is intent. Is rape intent as well? I'm not sure, but I think so. If her ex felt she was willing, while she was not, he did not intend to rape her. I think a portion of rape in the intent of harming someone and not in the act alone.

DREAD says she was raped. If she believes that, she needs to press charges. They won't stick but that's not the point.

To be honest: I think this is an interesting case from an intellectual/philosophical viewpoint. The ambiguity of DREAD's wording and her account make for a lot of questions.

More...

Posted by ccouch on January 8, 2009 at 2:59 PM · Report

285

legally, if you don't say "yes" it can be considered rape, even if you don't say "no".. i was drugged by an asshole and fucked by him. just because i didn't resist him "enough" (because i was incapacitated) doesn't mean it's my fault it happened and that i shouldn't feel bad about it.. this girl was taken advantage of.. raped.. and her lover should understand this and be supportive of her .

Posted by chicagoisforlovers on January 8, 2009 at 3:06 PM · Report

286

Really Eating At Me,
First, I would like to say that when I read your "issue" that my stomach actually turned. People like you, self centered, ignorant, vain, dishonest, cruel people like you, make me fucking sick. Do you know how lucky you are to have someone to love and that loves you back? And you're concerned with his weight gain? Fuck you. Honestly... fuck you. Maybe you could gain some weight, and a brain.

Bye.

Posted by Shane on January 8, 2009 at 3:11 PM · Report

287

'Asking for it,' "mrclean"? Seriously? I hope to fucking god that you're just some bored bastard trolling the internet for a fight & that you don't seriously believe this girl was asking for it. The words coming out of her mouth were "no" & "I can't" & it should have ended there. Taking it any further after she said "no" becomes sexual assault & penetration makes it rape.

Posted by resignation is NOT consent on January 8, 2009 at 3:21 PM · Report

288

Has anyone considered telling dread that there are resources out there for her, including RAINN and the National Sexual Assualt Hotline (1.800.656.HOPE) or their online hotline (links can be found at rainn.org)?

Posted by Iowabythesea on January 8, 2009 at 3:25 PM · Report

289

I appreciate your honesty ccouch, and I agree that when it comes down to it, an individual needs to take responsibility for their actions, because that is the only thing in life you can control.

Hopefully (through self-reflection or therapy) DREAD will come to realize that she needs to avoid people like her ex and will learn to surround herself with healthier relationships (kudos to you ccouch for having such great relationships) or people may take advantage of her (of course, there's only so much you can do to avoid these things, but clearly she could have done better). For example, I used to drink heavily at parties, but after I made stupid mistakes, I realized that I couldn't handle it and stopped. It wouldn't have been my fault if someone had taken advantage of me when I was drunk, but it is clearly in my control to not drink in the future.

It really irks me though that people would judge DREAD, because that won't help anyone, especially her.

Posted by In Solidarity Against Creeps on January 8, 2009 at 3:30 PM · Report

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Psilly, it really sounds like you're justifying the rape (& make no mistake, legally it WAS rape). Are you trying to defend your own actions? Maybe a bit more invasive than "tickling someone you loved". Or are you just working yourself up to raping someone? That girl was able to stop you because she (foolishly) trusted you enough to not only stop tickling her, but not to retaliate. Fuck you. Seriously, I hope someone fucks you without your consent & against your will. Because your attitude is why date-rape happens to innocent women.

Posted by fuck you, you fucking misogynist on January 8, 2009 at 3:33 PM · Report

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First things First:

DREAD:

As many others have said, YOU WERE RAPED! The only thing you have done wrong here was not reporting it to the authorities. While all of the legal crap that is going to come with it may try to define a "gray-area", you said NO!!! There was never any consent. You may have given up after being MANIPULATED, but you never consented.

TO ALL OF YOU WHO DON'T HAVE A CLUE:

Psilly, mrclean, and all of you others who think she "consented", or "gave-in" or "really wanted it": I pose this challenge to you - go out with your friends (if you actually have one) and enjoy a couple of drinks, then try putting up a defense of some kind (to anything) by a persistant individual who will not stop trying. Then go step off of the Aurora Bridge. You would be doing us all a favor!

Posted by mno on January 8, 2009 at 3:45 PM · Report

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DREAD, perhaps part of the reason why you feel it is you who has to repair the relationship with your current boyfriend is because you feel responsible for getting raped. Don't be too hard on yourself. Most rape victims blame themselves, because female guilt is ingrained in our society, in particular when it comes to sex. But that sexist attitude is wrong: you don't have to please men, you don't have to be submissive, and your sexual rights, your control of your own body, must be respected at all times. The fault is the always the aggressor's, not the victim's. I agree with others that therapy would do you good.

Posted by Barefoot on January 8, 2009 at 4:23 PM · Report

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Mno - no thanks.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 8, 2009 at 5:04 PM · Report

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I know the rapist was wrong. But "No, I can't" sounds an awful lot like "I would, but there's this little matter of my current boyfriend.."

If you say "no", make it simple and unambiguous. You couldn't bring yourself to say anything unambiguous like "stop!" and "get the fuck off me!"?!! You even had to qualify all your "no"s with "I can't"s. Not, "I don't want to", not even a wimpy "No, please don't".

Why on earth would you call this "date rape"? It was rape or it wasn't - but that's not my question. What in this letter would lead anyone here to think you were on a date with this guy? Did YOU think this was some sort of date?

Something is very wrong with this scenario. It sounds to me like you need to be a victim, and you needed to dump your victimhood on the current boyfriend. How did you expect him to react? Did you want him to take the law into his own hands and get put in jail? Did you just want company wallowing in your wishywashy helplessness and conflicted motives? Or are you testing him some other way? Or did you make up the story because you had drunk sex with your friendly terms ex-bf and knew someone saw it and had to make up a cover. This story does not add up, and I think your depression may have a lot to do with your not being honest with yourself.

You give yourself martyr points for being honest with the boyfriend. Even if you didn't make up the story, you just revealed yourself to him in a very unflattering way, and now he is being guilted into being compassionate and understanding and staying in a relationship with someone who is probably not as attractive to him anymore.

Dump the current boyfriend. It's over between you, quite possibly due to your own subconscious motives. Then go to AA and get a shrink who will help you face your real feelings about both boyfriends and your own role in this mess.

More...

Posted by annoyed on January 8, 2009 at 5:04 PM · Report

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Do what Mr. Savage says, Dread. You need to let this guy know what he did, how it affected you, and why he's a terrible person. And you need to talk to your boyfriend and let him know the facts, let him know he's making you feel worse than you deserve to and he's not making matters any better, and he's just not being a good boyfriend.
It'll be tough, but it's the only thing that's going to work. Good luck.

Posted by nightshade_and_roses on January 8, 2009 at 5:05 PM · Report

296

fuck you, you fucking misogynist - you wish, it would make your simple little way of looking at the world so much safer - but alas, the world is a complicated place.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 8, 2009 at 5:05 PM · Report

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DREAD should file charges as a first step in taking control of her life. Meekly letting others taking control is no way to go through life.

Posted by Your Name Here on January 8, 2009 at 5:06 PM · Report

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An accusation won't count unless DREAD takes this all the way to court, which means she has to put herself through hell and judgement to make her case. And she probably wouldn't win because it's her word against his. It's not worth it. Dan's advice is probably the best DREAD can do for herself and the other women out there who might have the misfortune of meeting her ex. Good luck DREAD! I swear you'll feel better one day. Get therapy if you need to! Oh and remember that scene in the movie "Prey for RnR", when all the girls in the band kidnap the D-bag that raped their bandmate and then tattoo "Rapist" on his forehead? That always makes me feel better.

Posted by GED on January 8, 2009 at 5:24 PM · Report

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gator765, psilly was talking about the methhead in letter #2, not the girl who got raped in letter #1, but you are right, the physical difference between men and women make women vulnerable. I think she should have offered to compromise with a bj and bit the fuckers dick off.

Posted by lushpuppy on January 8, 2009 at 5:25 PM · Report

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Psilly Cybin said: "I don't think anyone said she was 'asking for it' and anyway, your totally trying to change the dynamic."

In the future, you might want to read the first page of comments (which are the ones most commonly responded to). Number ten, posted by mrclean, read as follows: "She was kind of asking for it though wasn't she?"

The comment has sparked so much response that there was even an article written about it by Megan Seling (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…).

That comment is the one I was responding to, which is why you missed the context of what I was saying. Which brings us to...

Psilly Cybin said: "So, in essence women are not competent because they've been collectively brainwashed? I don't believe that, and I think its offensive for SNAG's (sensitive new age guys) to go around saying that."

I am not saying that women are incompetent. I am saying that DREAD's response is typical among rape victims and does not constitute "asking for it." One reason for the murky situation is that women are primarily prepared by society, including their parents, to confront stranger-rape (a very rare occurrence as far as rape statistics go). Date-rape/acquaintance-rape is given a softer touch and is often presented in language that suggests it is the woman's responsibility to prevent it ("Now Sally, don't let Jim go touching you on your date.").

Also, the situation with acquaintances is difficult due to the fact that one typically knows and at least somewhat trusts the imminent rapist. When you know someone, you're more likely to think you can control the situation. So you let it go a little too long and it spirals out of control.

None of this is brainwashing -- I'm not saying women are taught to let men do whatever they want. It's just an unfortunate truth about the subtle messages that still exist in society.

Don't believe these messages exist? A survey of American high school students found that 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances. A survey by the same researchers found that among 11 to 14 year olds: 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy “spent a lot of money” on the girl; 31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experiences; 87% of the boys and 79% of the girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and woman were married; and 65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.

That's pretty young to have such fucked up ideas -- and I don't think it makes me a SNAG to think so.

(Of course, I'm pretty sure I'm not a SNAG anyways. I'm just a gun-totin' Southern gentleman.)

More...

Posted by Zack Dergen on January 8, 2009 at 5:31 PM · Report

301

First article, right on Dan the guys a rapist.

I think she should call the cops and shame his ass.

At least the next vague case that comes in about him won't seem so vague after she has him on record.

Seems to me she simply realized he was going to have to have sex with her rather she consented or not.

She decided to make it the least traumatic for herself she could.

Rape is about power. He raped her.

Posted by amber on January 8, 2009 at 6:09 PM · Report

302

Is DREAD's Ex a farking asshole? Yes. Is he a rapist? Probably not.

I'm from California so let me give you California's legal definition of rape which applies to this incident.

Rape is an act of sexual intercourse carried out:

1. "against a person's will by means of force, violence, duress, menace, or fear of immediate and unlawful bodily injury on the person or another."

In DREAD's story it's very questionable that any of the above things happened.

Read this part of her letter again:

"I was afraid of a confrontation because he and I have been friendly since we broke up. I eventually discontinued my attempts to pull my pants back up because I figured the easiest way to get out of this situation was to let him finish."

DREAD never says the Ex was menacing, frightening or violent. She never says she was afraid of a confrontation because he was going to beat or otherwise harm her. She makes it clear she was afraid of losing a friend. In fact she never talks about being scared at all. You can not charge someone with the very serious crime of rape because you didn't want get into a "confrontation" and lose a "friendship". (The homecoming queen of my high school once admitted to me she slept with a lot of boys she didn't want to so she could maintain her popularity.) DREAD talks about "making out" (an act that requires two willing participants) while pushing him away and saying "no, I can't", which does little to convince someone you were in the process of being raped.

She does talk later in her letter about succumbing to force when she is blaming her boyfriend for not being understanding enough, but when she talks about the rape itself she never talks about being forced, i.e. hands held behind her, seat belt wrapped around her neck, immobilized in some manner. Which makes everything seem to me to be a case of buyers remorse in that DREAD went to a party, had some drinks, paired off with her Ex, started making out, regretted her decision almost immediately, decided to let him "finish", regretted her decision even more, started telling people she didn't really want to do it.

They only thing crystal clear in her letter to Dan is that her asshole Ex was aggressively persistent and she gave in to that persistence. While I would never EVER do what DREAD's Ex did I still am shocked by the amount of people who are screaming for his head/balls and encouraging DREAD to press charges. You people are talking about ruining some stupid young mans life because you already believe him to be a rapist. I agree with Dan in that he needs to be told that what he did was not right but does he really need to be in jail. (If so then half my old high school football team who slept with the homecoming queen should be in jail and had their lives ruined as well.)

I feel sorrow for DREAD's situation but I feel sympathetic to her boyfriend's plight even more. DREAD definitely needs some form of counseling, there is no question about that. Perhaps the first session could be about manipulation and why it is such a bad thing.

More...

Posted by akseth on January 8, 2009 at 6:27 PM · Report

303

She was so obviously raped and anyone who says otherwise is a rape apologist. Rape victims NEED OUR SUPPORT. The responses to this are disgusting.

Posted by Barb on January 8, 2009 at 6:49 PM · Report

304

One more quick point. As I read through the comments I notice that most of the people who are calling this situation a rape do so by talking about something that happened to them, or someone they know, that is clearly rape. They don't reference DREAD's actual story and her own comments about submitting because she didn't want to lose the friendship of her Ex. They talk about a situation similar (but different) and say DREAD must have been raped too.

Posted by akseth on January 8, 2009 at 6:56 PM · Report

305

She lost any chance of having charges stick as soon as she took a shower. And this all assumes she isn't misrepresenting the truth. But she just missed it being statutory rape because of age, and she deserves at least a fair hearing from the police who can at least scare some decency into her dirtbag ex. Not everything the cops do is for putting people in jail. They are also there to help prevent stuff from happening in the future. If nothing is done, we don't know if the guy will grow up or be encouraged by his luck to try again.

Posted by Your Name Here on January 8, 2009 at 7:15 PM · Report

306

It strikes that there is responsibility to be taken by both sides - one obviously much more so. One cannot prevent rape, I agree, but one can do much to dissuade the offender and escape in certain circumstances.

DREAD, If this is tearing you up so much why the hell didn't you scream? Why didn't you fight more? As you say, you weren't drunk just tipsy - there's still a fighting chance in there. I can in this instance kind of understand your BF's feelings - he is hurt that you didn't value your relationship with him to put up more a fight.

On the other hand, this experience shows all too well why you left your ex in the first place - he has truly shown up what sort of vile, selfish man he really is. Whatever he tries to tell you later - whatever his reasoning, his logic - do not for a moment listen to him and his debased thinking. He forced himself on you, whether you gave in or not. This is very despicable behaviour indeed.

You need to iron matters out both with your Ex and with your current BF. Let the former know precisely how you feel (and by all means, file a report with police so you have it on record). And, secondly, make time to sit down and have a heart-to-heart with your BF and let him you wish you would have fought harder and assure him there are no feelings left for your former boyfriend. Trust me, the current one is the one to worry about.

You are hurting - but in time, and with loving friends you will heal.

Posted by Elisha on January 8, 2009 at 7:44 PM · Report

307

Well said Dan. Too many men don't get that if a girl wants to have sex with you physical restraint will not be necessary.

And DREAD, get some counseling if you can. Feeling like it's somehow your fault, feeling vulnerable, these things affect you more than you might think they are.

Posted by alli on January 8, 2009 at 7:45 PM · Report

308

I just read more comments. I'm saddened by people who think this was somehow DREADs fault. How dare you judge a woman who's put in that position, and has to deal with the aftermath.

This may not be a prosecutable case of rape, but that doesn't make it any less wrong. And it doesn't lessen the effect it has on it's victim.

This was wrong. This was not DREADs fault in any way. And she needs to tell him and herself that explicitly.

And everyone who thinks otherwise - you haven't experienced the situation, don'tjudge.

Posted by alli on January 8, 2009 at 7:57 PM · Report

309

She was so obviously raped and anyone who says otherwise is a rape apologist. Rape victims NEED OUR SUPPORT. The responses to this are disgusting.

Posted by Barb on January 8, 2009 at 6:49 PM

She was not "obviously" raped, even if you take her at her own word.

What's obvious is that she had sex she regrets. I was in situations when I was sexually inexperienced where I went thru with sex because I tried to soften the ego blow of "no" and it got misinterpretted. I've been assaulted nonsexually, but never felt dirty afterwards (violated maybe but not dirty). The only sex I ever felt "dirty" after was the times where I hated the guy for not getting the message. But I stopped caring about them one way or the other when I understood that deep down I was really angry at myself for not trying harder to stop it. And none of those times probably required forcefulness or violence to stop. Just a clear and unambiguous "NO, I'm not interested/not attracted to you" or just "No". The first time I learned this was when a guy who had cajoled me into unwanted sex started calling me for more "dates". I couldn't believe his arrogance and delusions about his own attractiveness, but was afraid of being direct about how repulsive he was. Finally after I had said "no" meekly, he wanted to know why. At a loss for words, I just said "What?" in a slightly shocked tone. He asked again and again and I kept repeating "What?!!" in an increasingly outraged tone. It finally dawned on him and he hung up in embarrassment, and I stopped feeling dirty right then. He had no clue that he was not god's gift with a dick before that. As soon as I learned not to hem and haw with "no" I never had that problem again.

I'm tired of all this paleofeminist crap that women have no responsibility for stopping "rape" if they just can't communicate an unambiguous "no" because of societal conditioning to be nice. Yet men are presumed guilty because of societal conditioning to be aggressive and assertive. Then some of these women, who in many cases could have stopped the sex but didn't because they wanted to be "nice", decide they want to be very unnice and ruin someone else's life with charges of rape. Unless this ex was a total psycho, I'm sure he would have much preferred a little bruised ego and rejection to felony rape charges. Vagina power is not THAT strong.

More...

Posted by annoyed on January 8, 2009 at 8:39 PM · Report

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I don't get it. Why is it always the fault of the man. Sometimes drunk men are persistent and aggressive. This is wrong, but it is not rape. I would call it harassment or assault with a sex organ.

If a woman is in a position to scream, yell, run, etc, then she should. Simply saying no, then later, "ok, I guess I'll let you do it", is not going to get the point across to the drunk bastard. Instead of assigning blame we should look at prevention. Drunk assholes will always try to molest women, thankfully most will stop if the woman is persistent enough.

Yeah, its wrong what guys do, and we should continue to work on educational programs to change that mindset. However, NOW, TODAY, in our society that is what happens sometimes. Women need to learn to confront today's reality, and never stop fighting back, while working to change tomorrow.

Posted by ShoutOut on January 8, 2009 at 8:44 PM · Report

311

I don't get it. Why is it always the fault of the man. Sometimes drunk men are persistent and aggressive. This is wrong, but it is not rape. I would call it harassment or assault with a sex organ.

If a woman is in a position to scream, yell, run, etc, then she should. Simply saying no, then later, "ok, I guess I'll let you do it", is not going to get the point across to the drunk bastard. Instead of assigning blame we should look at prevention. Drunk assholes will always try to molest women, thankfully most will stop if the woman is persistent enough.

Yeah, its wrong what guys do, and we should continue to work on educational programs to change that mindset. However, NOW, TODAY, in our society that is what happens sometimes. Women need to learn to confront today's reality, and never stop fighting back, while working to change tomorrow.

Posted by ShoutOut on January 8, 2009 at 8:44 PM · Report

312

Don't call the cops. The court system is not fair at all and is really awful to women. In a situation where there is any ambiguity you won't win, and they will traumatize you further, make it feel like it's your fault. It isn't, and he is a rapist, but the police and the courts will only make it worse.

Posted by beh on January 8, 2009 at 8:45 PM · Report

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Wow, after reading some of these comments, all I can say is that some of you people are really sick...

Psilly, just WHERE in her letter do you get any evidence that she was "cheating?" She was raped, as even you get around to acknowledging: she said no when the "making out" started: so just when did she cheat?

Asketh, as a Californian I am horrified by your reading of our state law on rape. What is pushing someone into a car and repeatedly removing their clothing if not the use of force & violence?

And I agree that DREAD should go to the cops, but on the other hand, think of what the trial (assuming the bastard would be prosecuted) would be like. God forbid some sick fucks like Psilly Cybin, kennyg or mrclean should be on the jury...

DREAD, if you are still reading this, I am wishing you all the best in the world. Do not let the assholes here mess with your mind: you are a true survivor, and if you get yourself through this you will have a power and strength that these people who are criticizing you will never have. (And for the other posters here who expressed support for DREAD, much love to you all as well.)

Posted by Allyson on January 8, 2009 at 9:50 PM · Report

314

Mr. Asshole, aka mrclean,
that is just the mentality that has caused the scenario that girl UNWILLINGLY become a part of. It was a crime. Yes, a crime. You are not allowed to penetrate a woman without her consent. She did not consent and she DID NOT ask for it. What DS states is true, women have it subconsciously (or overtly) bashed into their heads to not make a scene, to please, to put other's needs first. What ex did was not provoked - he violated her. period. You should be ashamed of yourself. Is this the only way you are able to get laid yourself???

Posted by smk on January 8, 2009 at 10:16 PM · Report

315

i wonder mrclean, if you would say "she was kind of asking for it" if it was your mom/sister/or other loved one. walking to your car with someone you trust when you've been drinking is now dangerous and stupid? and even if a person puts themselves into a bad situation that does NOT mean that they deserve to be violated! rape is never warranted or deserved. you should inform yourself before you publicly embarrass yourself again.

Posted by cabo on January 8, 2009 at 10:37 PM · Report

316

really? did you just say that mrclean?

Posted by lfa on January 8, 2009 at 11:07 PM · Report

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mrclean - is that supposed to be a joke?

Posted by Aurora Erratic on January 9, 2009 at 12:15 AM · Report

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I don't mean this as a comment on DREADS situation in particular, but more generally, there is imo a meaningful distinction whether you're talking about sex or anything else between letting someone do things to you that you don't want, don't enjoy, and feel bad about, but for reasons of social, emotional, or just alcohol induced circumstances you *permit* to happen...and when someone does something to you against your explicit and *sustained* objections by way of physical force or threat of injury.

Thats the difference between violating someone's *wishes* and violating someone's *will.* I have no idea which was the case in the situation that sparked this discussion, but to conflate the two amounts to minimizing the extreme gravity of rape.

Posted by cynical commie girl on January 9, 2009 at 12:30 AM · Report

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FWIW, the commenter DREAD tells a different story from the letter-writer DREAD, in which the car door was opened, and she was pressed to the seat as opposed to standing outside the car. In the other, it all apparently takes place outside. Perhaps she merely provided more detail in the comments, but the letter to Dan was pretty clear as to what happened. Questions about the exact events don't help establish credibility.

DREAD also wrote that sex with someone who has "consumed alcohol" is rape. No. "Consuming alcohol" is precise, and very different from being drunk. If sex + alcohol were automatically rape, we'd all be rapists.

None of this suggests she wasn't raped. She was. A prosection might even be successful -- if she kept saying no throughout, especially, as her letter implies. But the inconsistency doesn't help.

Posted by MSM on January 9, 2009 at 1:55 AM · Report

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I was heartsickened by DREAD's letter about being raped by her ex, and then getting no sympathy whatsoever by her current boyfriend!
Where is the love?!? She deserves so much better! It sounds like she's better off without either one.
Once again, your answer was right on target, Dan.

Posted by Survivor on January 9, 2009 at 2:47 AM · Report

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"How many of you female posters have ever said no and then changed your mind?"

I for one have never said "no" and then changed my mind in a date situation, at least not on the same evening. I have only done that when sleeping with men I have a long-term relationship with...when I give in so that they will leave me alone and I can get some sleep. THAT is a totally different situation than DREAD's.

"DREAD also wrote that sex with someone who has "consumed alcohol" is rape."

Perhaps she meant to say that it is rape even IF alcohol has been consumed.

Posted by J on January 9, 2009 at 3:05 AM · Report

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I'd like to add that while some people seroconvert through irresponsible behavior, the vast majority did it through actions that most others have simply "gotten away with". Some dodged a bullet, others didn't.

Barebacking with meth thrown in. Wildly irresponsible. Blow jobs....who can say?

Posted by Global Traveler on January 9, 2009 at 3:20 AM · Report

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"She was kind of asking for it though wasn't she?"

They all want it.

Posted by ananonym on January 9, 2009 at 3:28 AM · Report

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"I tried to push him away and said, "No, I can't" several times. He kept trying to pull my pants down, and every time he did, I pulled them back up."

mrclean, you douchebag, what part of that sounds like "asking for it?"

Posted by Mn. Fats on January 9, 2009 at 4:08 AM · Report

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"I tried to push him away and said, "No, I can't" several times. He kept trying to pull my pants down, and every time he did, I pulled them back up."

mrclean, you douchebag, what part of that sounds like "asking for it?"

Posted by Mn. Fats on January 9, 2009 at 4:08 AM · Report

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And as for the girl that was clearly raped... if you're not going to go to the police, don't bitch about being raped.

You have options.

Posted by Shane on January 9, 2009 at 4:46 AM · Report

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hmm....rather than have a "confrontation," this chick lets her ex fuck her. is she gonna let someone kidnap her kids to avoid a confrontation? gonna let someone stab her husband to avoid a confrontation? telling someone you've know for years, "NO, I DON'T WANT TO FUCK YOU" doesn't seem that hard. she sure sounds like a gal i'd like to marry

Posted by belisarius on January 9, 2009 at 5:00 AM · Report

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hmm....rather than have a "confrontation," this chick lets her ex fuck her. is she gonna let someone kidnap her kids to avoid a confrontation? gonna let someone stab her husband to avoid a confrontation? telling someone you've know for years, "NO, I DON'T WANT TO FUCK YOU" doesn't seem that hard. she sure sounds like a gal i'd like to marry

Posted by belisarius on January 9, 2009 at 5:00 AM · Report

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Rape:
Someone threatened to break your eye socket and you feared for you safety so you submitted to sex. Obviously rape.

Someone broke your eye socket so you submit to sex. Obviously rape.

You are in a situation where the only course of action to insure your safety is having sex with your attacker. Obviously Rape.

Not Rape:
You wanted someone to help you with your math and chemistry homework so you had sex with them even though you didn't want to have sex. NOT RAPE

You wanted someone to call you for a second date so you had sex with them on the first date even though you didn't want sex. NOT RAPE

You wanted a friend to continue to like you so you had sex with them even though you didn't want sex. NOT RAPE

You wanted to not have "confrontation because he and I have been friendly since we broke up". NOT RAPE. Read DREAD's letter this is EXACTLY what she said.

DREAD says in her own words that she had sex with her Ex because she didn't want to lose his friendship. This is NOT RAPE. To call it rape is to cheapen and demean women have been forced to have sex against their will regardless of the situation.

Everyone is choosing to focus on different parts of DREAD's story to decide if they think she was raped or not. Obviously I am focusing on the part of her story where she says she chose to have sex with her Ex to maintain her friendship with him. I will be the first and loudest to say that this makes her Ex an ASSHOLE for exploiting that weakness in her but I will also be the first and loudest to insist that she can not now claim to have been raped by him.

I was raised in a strong female oriented family in that I had four sisters and a very loving strong mother. I know beyond a shadow of doubt what constitutes a violation of consent for women as I've had to witness every possible situation growing up. Everything from "if you love me you will let me do it" to someone forcibly holding one of my sisters down and violating her while she struggled to escape.

I guess that's why DREAD's story doesn't make any sense to me.

More...

Posted by akseth on January 9, 2009 at 5:28 AM · Report

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Rape:
Someone threatened to break your eye socket and you feared for you safety so you submitted to sex. Obviously rape.

Someone broke your eye socket so you submit to sex. Obviously rape.

You are in a situation where the only course of action to insure your safety is having sex with your attacker. Obviously Rape.

Not Rape:
You wanted someone to help you with your math and chemistry homework so you had sex with them even though you didn't want to have sex. NOT RAPE

You wanted someone to call you for a second date so you had sex with them on the first date even though you didn't want sex. NOT RAPE

You wanted a friend to continue to like you so you had sex with them even though you didn't want sex. NOT RAPE

You wanted to not have "confrontation because he and I have been friendly since we broke up". NOT RAPE. Read DREAD's letter this is EXACTLY what she said.

DREAD says in her own words that she had sex with her Ex because she didn't want to lose his friendship. This is NOT RAPE. To call it rape is to cheapen and demean women have been forced to have sex against their will regardless of the situation.

Everyone is choosing to focus on different parts of DREAD's story to decide if they think she was raped or not. Obviously I am focusing on the part of her story where she says she chose to have sex with her Ex to maintain her friendship with him. I will be the first and loudest to say that this makes her Ex an ASSHOLE for exploiting that weakness in her but I will also be the first and loudest to insist that she can not now claim to have been raped by him.

I was raised in a strong female oriented family in that I had four sisters and a very loving strong mother. I know beyond a shadow of doubt what constitutes a violation of consent for women as I've had to witness every possible situation growing up. Everything from "if you love me you will let me do it" to someone forcibly holding one of my sisters down and violating her while she struggled to escape.

I guess that's why DREAD's story doesn't make any sense to me.

More...

Posted by akseth on January 9, 2009 at 5:34 AM · Report

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Well of course she was asking for it Mr. Clean. All girls that get raped are really asking for it. The Taliban are quite clear on this issue.

Posted by Mr.Clean is an ass on January 9, 2009 at 5:46 AM · Report

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I feel for Dread. I was raped by someone who was suppose to be my friend at the time. I went to the police they did little about it at the time, because I was hanging out with him willingly. Hanging out with a person is in no way in invite to fuck you. As for her boyfriend. It seems he has issues. She shouldn't be blamed because some dude couldn't take no as an answer. Seems to me that both guys are scum and that the world would have been better off if they had just been cum bubbles running down their mommies leg, instead of being born.

Posted by Fire_angel1 on January 9, 2009 at 5:58 AM · Report

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So many of us have been through exactly the same thing as DREAD. Everyone thinks rape is so black and white--until they get raped. Most rapists aren't strangers with weapons and mental illnesses, they're friends who know you and your weaknesses.

The guy I was with when I was raped by my friend's boyfriend had a very similar reaction to DREAD's boyfriend, as did my friends. They blamed me for "seducing" the friend's boyfriend and ruining their relationship. The hardest part of the whole experience wasn't the rape, it was the blame.

Posted by newton on January 9, 2009 at 6:20 AM · Report

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put yourself in her situation mr. clean ... if you were her would you have been asking for it. what kind of messed up question is that?

Posted by sunny on January 9, 2009 at 6:27 AM · Report

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DREAD's story and the telling of it makes me wonder if there were things she left out (like flirting with him at the party for instance). Why "No, I can't" instead of a simple "NO", or kicking him in the groin? Seems like she is ambiguous about whether she was raped and maybe about her current relationship.

Posted by rayy on January 9, 2009 at 6:36 AM · Report

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"Asking for it." By doing what - getting buzzed and going to her car alone? By being at the same party as some guy who'd already had sex with her (which in Guyland seems to mean a girl is always fair game)? By being at a party without her boyfriend? By not having some sort of lock on her pussy, put there by her current boyfriend? I don't understand what part of what this young woman did constitutes "asking for being mauled, pushed around, maniuplated, and forcibly raped" (which is what "it" means in this context).

Posted by jj on January 9, 2009 at 7:15 AM · Report

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It never fails. Whenever a woman is taken advantage of, there is always someone who insists that she was asking for it. How? By being his friend? If so, I've got a lot of raping to do. By being tipsy? Isn't drinking what parties are for? I just don't see how she was asking for it. If I were this girl's boyfriend I would already be covered in the blood of that asshole, not blaming my girlfriend.

Posted by jamesthemic on January 9, 2009 at 7:21 AM · Report

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Psilly Cybin if you were a rape counselor you really sucked. DREAD betrayed her current boyfriend by being at a party and having a couple of drinks when her ex was present? Your logic is faulty.

I'm grateful you are no longer a rape counselor.

Posted by Psilly Cybin is silly on January 9, 2009 at 7:23 AM · Report

339

I think your response to DREAD was right on, although I wish it were not true that she has no chance of getting anywhere with pressed charges. But since you're going to get mountains and mountains of mail from douchbags who are terrified that their "right" to pressure or bully unwilling women into sex is being recategorized as rape, let me offer them some helpful advice: Consent is not just the absence of a NO, it's the presence of a YES.

Posted by Sara in Philly on January 9, 2009 at 8:03 AM · Report

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P.S. to Akseth - your comment is perpetrating the myth that all rapes are violent. Sure, the line is more clear when coercion involves a weapon, but just because that would be comfortably black-and-white for you doesn't mean that less violent circumstances are not rape. Your fallacy implies that other types of coercion - marital rape, rape within psychologically abusive relationships, rape when some other nonphysical threat is the leverage, rape when the rapist simply won't stop or go away (as in DREAD's case) - don't count, or count less. That kind of thinking is exactly what makes it difficult to bring those cases to court or even have the police take them seriously, which in turn makes it easier for men like DREAD's ex to feel safe forcing an unwilling woman into sex.
Who exactly are we trying to protect, here?

Posted by Sara in Philly on January 9, 2009 at 8:12 AM · Report

341

If I was DREAD's Boyfriend, I would find the sick bastards and dispense some Street Justice on his immature butt. What he did wrong, and he won't take any responsibility for his action. He choose to violate her, end of story. DREAD doesn't need this type of drama in her nor does anyone else.

Posted by WhipRon on January 9, 2009 at 8:18 AM · Report

342

Okay, first off, let me say that no does mean no, I agree with that. And if we agree with what DREAD wrote, that this is definitely rape, but we have not heard his side of the story. It is unfortunate that DREAD was allegedly raped, however she should be thankful that it was not physically violent. However, I have to ask the question, did she eventually let him rape her so that she could keep him as a friend? Maybe I am misunderstanding with my reading of her letter. If he was holding a gun in his hand instead of a dick, and his intention was to shoot her instead of screw her, would she eventually let him to avoid a confrontation? Would she stop pushing the gun away from her chest like she stopped pulling up her pants, would she stop saying no? It is possible that with DREAD being tipsy, maybe her recollection of the facts are not 100%. Personally, it almost sounds like she had sex with her ex, then felt guilty about it afterwards, regretted it and then decided that he must have raped her, because she would never do that.

I have been on the other side of the coin before and had an ex-girlfriend accuse me of rape, and I got to go through the process, it is not fun. The ex and I never had sex, even when we were together, but I got to endure being threatened and assaulted by her family, shunned by my friends, some, not all. All because she was pissed off that I had broken up with her, so she decided to accuse me to get me back. Eventually the truth came out, but the damage was done, and nothing ever happened to her as a result of her accusing me.

Again, I know that No means No, my Dad taught me that many years ago when we talked about puberty. He also taught me that there are 2 sides to every story, and that over time stories change after re-thinking and talking to friends. The best advice I could give to DREAD, and is the same advice I would give my daughter at puberty; would be to take a self defence course, and grow a backbone. That way, if words fail you, a shot to a pressure point will get the point across, and you won't have people walking all over you for the rest of your life. And I agree with a previous poster who stated that saying "You're raping me", or "Stop raping me" would probably work very well in those date-rape senarios, it would eliminate any confusion if "No" doesn't work. Maybe once he whipped his dick out, asking if he was going to rape you might have sobered him up, but too late now, but at least you know if it ever happens again.

More...

Posted by Walking Carefully on January 9, 2009 at 8:27 AM · Report

343

I think DREAD's boyfriend is about as senseless and insecure as they come.

Only someone who is truly so small would ever be mad at the girl in this scenario.

He feels cheated on, like maybe she wanted to have sex with the ex and just let this be the opportunity.

FUCKING IDIOT, why don't these people come with clearly visible instructions to TURN AND WALK AWAY upon meeting.

Posted by Andi on January 9, 2009 at 9:26 AM · Report

344

You know some of you commenters are completely off target.

"She was so obviously raped and anyone who says otherwise is a rape apologist. Rape victims NEED OUR SUPPORT. The responses to this are disgusting.

Posted by Barb"

----> Wow. Nice going with the "everyone who doesn't agree with me is WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!". Is is possible for yor to discuss things rationally? Chill the fuck out and use logic.

"How dare you judge a woman who's put in that position, and has to deal with the aftermath.... And everyone who thinks otherwise - you haven't experienced the situation, don't judge.

Posted by alli"

"Asketh, as a Californian I am horrified by your reading of our state law on rape.

Posted by Allyson"

--> Are you horrified by his interpretation or the fact he would dare try and use a well-formulated legal document to sort out this situation?
----> It seems like you all are saying "This women says she was raped! Put your brains away immediately and don't ask questions!" Crying rape as a magic bullet is bad for men and women too.

I'll be straight with you. I HATE rapists and other sick abusers. When used properly, I think the death penalty is Great. Rape is a Terrible crime and should be punished incredibly harshly. But women who would call rape falsely are also absolutely despicable. (Not that DREAD is necessarily, but that that is where your attitudes will lead when no one can question a rape victim.)

What you're asking for "he raped me" to equal end of story. And that's wrong.

And I am disgusted by the quality of some of the feminist posts. Shouldn't you be in favor of free speech and discussion? Shouldn't these issues, society's dirty laundry be aired on and discussed?

Imagine if every high school boy had to read this story and the comments and discuss it. Wouldn't that lead to a more enlightened populace? I think many guys would be repulsed to realize that some of the girls who had given in to them hated every minute of it.

And that would be great thing.

Maybe I'm wrong but weren't the beginnings of the feminist movement strongly rooted in the idea of open communication? I feel that some of you rather desire the opposite, the silence of those who dissent with you.

That makes you as bad as the men who think women belong solely in the kitchen and the religious nuts who burn Harry Potter books without ever reading them.

More...

Posted by ccouch on January 9, 2009 at 9:32 AM · Report

345

You know some of you commenters are completely off target.

"She was so obviously raped and anyone who says otherwise is a rape apologist. Rape victims NEED OUR SUPPORT. The responses to this are disgusting.

Posted by Barb"

----> Wow. Nice going with the "everyone who doesn't agree with me is WRONG!WRONG!WRONG!". Is is possible for yor to discuss things rationally? Chill the fuck out and use logic.

"How dare you judge a woman who's put in that position, and has to deal with the aftermath.... And everyone who thinks otherwise - you haven't experienced the situation, don't judge.

Posted by alli"

"Asketh, as a Californian I am horrified by your reading of our state law on rape.

Posted by Allyson"

--> Are you horrified by his interpretation or the fact he would dare try and use a well-formulated legal document to sort out this situation?
----> It seems like you all are saying "This women says she was raped! Put your brains away immediately and don't ask questions!" Crying rape as a magic bullet is bad for men and women too.

I'll be straight with you. I HATE rapists and other sick abusers. When used properly, I think the death penalty is Great. Rape is a Terrible crime and should be punished incredibly harshly. But women who would call rape falsely are also absolutely despicable. (Not that DREAD is necessarily, but that that is where your attitudes will lead when no one can question a rape victim.)

What you're asking for "he raped me" to equal end of story. And that's wrong.

And I am disgusted by the quality of some of the feminist posts. Shouldn't you be in favor of free speech and discussion? Shouldn't these issues, society's dirty laundry be aired on and discussed?

Imagine if every high school boy had to read this story and the comments and discuss it. Wouldn't that lead to a more enlightened populace? I think many guys would be repulsed to realize that some of the girls who had given in to them hated every minute of it.

And that would be great thing.

Maybe I'm wrong but weren't the beginnings of the feminist movement strongly rooted in the idea of open communication? I feel that some of you rather desire the opposite, the silence of those who dissent with you.

That makes you as bad as the men who think women belong solely in the kitchen and the religious nuts who burn Harry Potter books without ever reading them.

More...

Posted by ccouch on January 9, 2009 at 9:34 AM · Report

346

Opps sorry for the double post.

Oh and for the record, I thought mrclean was Hilarious. It was a JOKE!

And he hasn't posted since and isn't reading this, so stop blasting him.

(If he wasn't joking, then it wasn't funny.)

Posted by ccouch on January 9, 2009 at 9:37 AM · Report

347

No. She in now way, shape, or form was 'kind of asking for it.' I believe saying no, pushing him away, and trying to keep her clothes on screamed no. I don't see any mixed signals here at all. That she gave in doesn't negate that she made it clear she did not want to have sex.

And honestly, anyone who still uses the phrase "She was kind of asking for it" is someone I avoid at all costs.

Posted by StellarBlue on January 9, 2009 at 9:44 AM · Report

348

Dan gave the right answer based on her description of the situation. Most ways of reconstructing what she describes sound like rape to me. However, I think the controversy is right to exist, because the circumstances are still a little "ambiguous" as Dan said. There are ways to reconstruct this scene that seem much less like rape.

Plus, her statements on this board are questionable: "And yes, I had been drinking. Whether or not you morons realize it, having sex with a woman who has consumed alcohol--whether you have also consumed alcohol or not--is rape."

What? I hope that was just a mistaken way of writing a different meaning. If not, that's an intention of being of victim at all costs, and I'm sure Dr. Dan wouldn't approve. That statement actually casts doubt on the entire story, unfortunately...

Posted by PS on January 9, 2009 at 10:15 AM · Report

349

DREAD,what he did was unacceptable and criminal.Confront his worthless ass.He needs to know that what he did is not right and he is responsible for your misery.

Scare him by telling him you're gonna report his behaviour

Posted by smokywhispa on January 9, 2009 at 10:37 AM · Report

350

You people are all forgetting that we don't know his side of the story. We don't know his thoughts/actions or her thoughts/actions leading up to this encounter. Only two people know exactly what happened that night, and I'm willing to be their recollections are not the same.

Should he have stopped when she said "No" and pulled her pants back up? Absolutely! But is that exactly what she did?

I have been married for 15 years, and if I had rolled over every time my wife said "No", we would probably have no kids and would probably been divorced long ago. But we've talked about it, and she tells me that sometimes she says no because she's not in the mood, or she's tired, or she's pissed off, or she simply wants to be romanced a little. I have rolled over after she said "No" before only to have her roll over and take me, saying I should try harder. The signals are not always clear, it is not always cut and dry, black and white.

While I sincerely doubt the guy is going to log on here and post his version of events (not that we could believe it was really actually him posting anyway), if he unintentionally sexually assaulted her, he probably wouldn't recognize the series of events, and wouldn't know to comment. If he intentionally raped her, then he probably wouldn't comment, and if he did, he would probably lie about it.

My advice to DREAD would be to talk to the ex in a safe environment or via the phone, to find out his story. Unless he is a completely deranged psychopath, then the rules above should apply.

There should probably be a disclaimer on this column:

Warning: Regretting sex the next day does not equal rape.

Posted by Confused Man on January 9, 2009 at 10:38 AM · Report

351

Does DREAD stand for:

Definitley
Regrets
Encounter
After
Discovery

Posted by asshole on January 9, 2009 at 10:45 AM · Report

352

ccouch-

A strong female voice of reason. Thanks for that.

akseth-

Very well put. Legally rape? Not the way DREAD describes it. She WANTED to cry, WANTED to say "stop" (which she actually distinguishes from what she DID say, which was "no, I can't"), but she didn't.

Her reason for not taking more action--"I was afraid of a confrontation because he and I have been friendly since we broke up." Uhh, there's a different between verbally fighting with someone and letting them take advantage of your body for the sake of friendship. This sounds a lot like a bad case of regret and an aggressive, horny ex, not a clear-cut rape scenario. "I can't"? Why would she say that? I would like the hear the ex's story as well.

Why has DREAD been tiptoeing around telling her current BF that she was RAPED if she believes so strongly that she was?

I think she needs to put her current relationship on hold, seek some counseling, and confront her ex.

Posted by Reader on January 9, 2009 at 11:02 AM · Report

353

Nobody asks to be raped. I can't believe men can still think that. Haven't you ever heard "no means no?". And were you not aware that it is considered a felony crime for one spouse to rape another?

The last comment was clearly written by a complete Moron.

Posted by Ribena on January 9, 2009 at 11:36 AM · Report

354

There are such wierd gray areas sometimes in rape. The fact that she said "NO." and "I can't do this." should have been enough to make him stop but since he had no respect for her or her feeling he just kept right on going and he took advantage of her respect for him and their relationship...sometime people just suck but just because he didn't beat her or force her down doesn't make this any less rape. My ex-husband raped me several times but i felt like i had no recourse because he was my husband and he didn't hit me he just ignored when i said "no." or "stop!"and struggled against him. I knew it was rape then too but i knew nothing could really be done about it but, man, i reminded him that he was nothing but a rapist every chance i got...of course i left him very soon after, too, but i always encountered people who felt like i made too much of it. So don't listen to those people, DREAD. You are validated! He raped you and he is a rapist and it'll feel good to tell him so. Your man either needs to correct his thinking or you need to move on. You're worth a hell of a lot more than that.

Posted by la muerta on January 9, 2009 at 11:37 AM · Report

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mrclean- that is bullshit.
I cannot believe that that attitude still exsists!
RAPE means that you DID NOT "ask for it".
NO MEANS NO!!!
What the fuck is wrong with you???? Would you have sex with someone who didn't want you? If you did would you realize what you were doing was rape?

DREAD, Most importantly...get to a sexual assult councelor NOW. This will hurt for a while. Get help dealing with it now.
No matter what some stupid people have written...THIS WAS NOT YOUR FAULT. Good Luck Sweetie

Posted by Mom on January 9, 2009 at 12:38 PM · Report

356

FWIW, let's remember this whole thing is as reported by DREAD. He 'made out w/ her' against her will (really? he forced her mouth open?) And, having pulled her pants down (on a sreet, against a car: not in a back alley) fucked her against her will. Fucking w/ your pants on requires turning around and bending over - certainly activities that can be forced on you, but also ones that, if they weren't forced on you (if you turned around and bent over with being pushed) could lead you, and your rapist, to think you were OK w/ being fucked. I think it's very possible, even likely, that she really was raped. I think it's also possible that she had drunken sex w/ an ex, feels guitly since she's in a relationship, and is trying to make it entirely his fault. If the former, and she's apologizing to the current boyfriend, she's got issues. If the latter, then she's being incredibly irresponsible trying to make sex she regrets into rape

Posted by Just Me on January 9, 2009 at 12:49 PM · Report

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This is Allyson, Responding to ccouch:
What horrifies me in what Asketh wrote is the idea that somehow, pushing someone down and repeatedly yanking someone's clothes off is not considered to be force and violence. Force, in dicitonary.com, is defined as including "strength or power exerted upon an object; physical coercion; violence:" it seems quite clear that this was used against DREAD.

The law that Asketh quotes is indeed a well formulated legal document: it is the interpretation that distorts what should be very clear terms.

But one thing I have learned from this discussion, as disheartening as it has been to read some of the comments: the next time I start to date a new man, I will be sure to have a discussion with him about his attitude toward sexual assualt. If I hear attitudes such as those expressed by the critics of DREAD, I am out of there. I am also out of this discussion, which has really brought out the dregs of society. Good luck to DREAD and all survivors of sexual assault--stay strong and don't let these bastards get to you!

Posted by Allyson on January 9, 2009 at 12:59 PM · Report

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The Just World Phenomenon is what makes people reluctant to admit - evne to themselves - that they've been raped or assaulted, and it's the same thing that invariably makes others deny that it happened or insist it was somehow the victim's fault.

The Just World Phenomenon refers to the tendency for people to want to believe that the world is "just" so strongly that when they witness an otherwise inexplicable injustice they will rationalize it by searching for things that the victim might have done to deserve it. This deflects their anxiety, and lets them continue to believe the world is a just place, but at the expense of blaming victims for things that were not, objectively, their fault.

I see a bunch of people saying things along the lines of, "She should learn not to hang out with men like that in the future." How was she supposed to know he was capable of something like that before he actually did it? Is she supposed to just assume every man is "like that" until proven otherwise? Not much of a way to live.

Posted by T.U.M. on January 9, 2009 at 1:26 PM · Report

359

DREAD wasn't raped, she admits she LET HIM. If my girlfriend came to me with this story and I asked how he overpowered her, did she resist..etc and she answered "I meakly said no a few times and pulled my pants up but didnt want a confrontation so I let him" Id be pissed off. She just lets anyone fuck her. She should actually defend her honour, otherwise any guy who persists can have his way. In a court of law, she consented, regretted it later, but allowed it to happen. Why not punch him in the face, kick, scream, whatever. She didn't resist whatsoever. Morally, the dude is in the wrong because she said no. She didn't attempt to enforce the no though. I'd consider it cheating, or just an example of such weak willpower that it would be worth breaking up with her.

Posted by D on January 9, 2009 at 1:31 PM · Report

360

To Sara In Philly:

All of the circumstances you listed in your comment are situations that I do believe are rape. That is the problem with what is happening in this thread. People are posting situations that are examples of rape and then saying its the same as what happened to DREAD.

To everyone else:

I'm starting to wonder how many people actually read DREAD's story or like our soon to be Ex-President they "only read the headlines". In this case a sensational, emotion twisting headline of "That's rape".

A lot of posters immediately grabbed their pitchfork and lynch rope, started yelling rape rape rape and actively encouraged DREAD to do the same thing. That's the danger here. This is not a hypothetical situation in a group discussion. It's a real story about real people and a lot of you want DREAD to crucify someone she says she had sex with because "I was afraid of a confrontation because he and I have been friendly since we broke up." Hell a lot of people are encouraging DREAD and her boyfriend to kill or maim her Ex. The Ex-boyfriend she clearly says she had sex with so she could keep his friendship. What the fuck? If DREAD wouldn't have included that part of her story I would be building the bonfire to burn the SOB Ex too.

We should be encouraging DREAD to get help. We should be encouraging her boyfriend to get help. We should label her Ex an asshole and warn other women about him. We should even be encouraging the Ex to get some counseling so he knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that what he did was wrong. But should we be encouraging people to beat or kill the Ex or put him in jail as a rapist. Really?

Posted by akseth on January 9, 2009 at 1:52 PM · Report

361

Allyson and others- there are some basic facts that you and others keep ignoring.

First, the only aspect of the law that really matters is case law and precedent, not the words on a page.

What almost everyone here agrees on is that even if this ended in court, DREAD would probably lose if the decision was made by a jury of her peers applying community standards of behavior.

Second, there is another rather inconvenient fact that stems from our legal system - the ex-boyfriend is innocent. He has not been convicted of anything and actually, he has not been charged with anything. So, according to the system in which we all live the ex-boyfriend is not guilty of anything. This matters because some of the advice being offered here could leave DREAD getting sued for dafamation of character or libel. Since the truth defense in a libel suit like this would not be there (since she never pressed charges) she would surely lose. Also, if anyone assaults this ex-boyfriend they are the ones who could/should be arrested according to our laws.

Finally, there are two side to every story, which is one reason why we have the adversarial court system that we do...so each and every person participating in this discussion is doing so with an incomplete picture of the events.

With all of that said: does anyone really thing writing to an advice columnist after you have been raped is the best thing to do?

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 9, 2009 at 2:18 PM · Report

362

I too find it disturbing just how many people out there have been raped but have not received the proper counseling for it such that they react to this subject by PROJECTING their experience onto everyone else.

To every woman who has responded to this by 1. telling your own rape story, and then 2. asking everyone why they deserved it - you are just showing the rest of us how much more recovery you have ahead of you - I am truly sorry BUT your contributions are completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 9, 2009 at 2:29 PM · Report

363

I second the police and the therapist. It isn't your fault DREAD. It's the sick bastard who raped you. You might consider a domestic violence protection order to restrain your ex from contacting you. Your call of course. But cops are supposed to take those orders seriously. And a DV order is a civil order that does NOT depend on whether the prosecutor decides to press charges.

Posted by Juno on January 9, 2009 at 2:37 PM · Report

364

Juno - Good luck on that restraining order without any evidence....

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 9, 2009 at 2:58 PM · Report

365

*Some women are taught, and believe, that to say "yes" right away will make the guy think she is a slut.
*Some women are taught, and believe, that to "give enthusiastic consent"--to initiate sexual activity, to suggest it, to ask for it--turns guys off.
*Some guys believe that a woman who says "yes" right away is a slut.
*Some guys are turned off by honest/frank/assertive women; they want sex with a "nice girl".
*Some girls get drunk to give themselves *permission* to have sex; they have an excuse to use later that way and they are still considered "nice girls"
*Some guys think that a woman has given permission for sexual activity when she accepts a drink/goes somewhere with him alone.
*Some women have given a guy permission for sexual activity when she accepts a drink.
*Some women are turned off by men who accept "no" at face value, the first time.
*Some men are attracted to assertive women.
*Some men are so terrified of being seen as a rapist, or seen as imposing on a woman, that they don't initiate sex themselves.
*Some women enjoy teasing men by sexually arousing them and shutting them down.
*Some *men* enjoy teasing women by sexually arousing them and then shutting them down.
*Both men and women can go into a disassociative state (paralyzed with fear) when facing an emotionally intense or traumatizing situation. It's a process not fully controlled by our intent or will; it can happen to the strongest, most assertive person--and the fact that one's own brain and body is betraying one's self *as well as* another person is betraying one can be shocking and frightening.
------------------
Basically, the stereotypes about "what men do" and "what women do" are horsepucky. It's more likely in a drinking environment to see "the people who think drinking=consent" in action, working on getting laid, and the "people who are power tripping on teasing them" in action, working on getting their egos stroked. That's a bad combination right there for reinforcing game-playing and stereotypes as well as leading to bad situations. Some people get smarter with age. Some don't.

Now for my poster creds: I'm female and over 40. I own a bar, so I see it all. When I was younger, I too was raped by an exboyfriend, in a similar manner; I was shocked at my own responsibility in my rape and took self defense courses. I have had men respond badly to "enthusiastic consent"; I have had men respond with gratitude for "enthusiastic consent"; I have had men tease me with "no" before getting to "yes"; I have had men grab me; you get the picture.

Basically, people (male and female)who believe that "no doesn't mean no" in sexual situations are going to get into situations where they are, in fact, raping other people; it would be just and fair if everybody recognized that "no meant no" but that isn't how reality is. Explicitly saying phrases such as:
"Goddammit, get the hell away from me."
"I don't want to have sex with you. Don't touch me."
"Get your hands off me!"
"Stop now."
works better. If the assaulter is really drunk, the subtlety of "kissing is nice, but I'm not going to go all the way" is going to be lost. "Don't touch me" is a clear and easily communicated boundary.

And yes, men can be raped by women, especially teenage boys. I didn't understand this for a long time; but they can be sexually aroused (erection, etc.)while disassociated. Being female myself, I thought that an erection meant consent. If we want to talk about male reactions to being raped, we don't have to limit ourselves to scenarios of anal penetration by other men.

More...

Posted by Old Broad on January 9, 2009 at 3:24 PM · Report

366

I think it's pretty disgusting to say that rape isn't rape because someone else experienced something a bit worse.

Posted by Brit on January 9, 2009 at 3:41 PM · Report

367

The proper response to someone who knowingly exposes themselves to HIV over and over is RAGE. It's not even as sad as suicide, since with modern medicine they'll probably be around for decades, probably spreading the plague while driving up the price of medications so that those who were truly ignorant struggle to get treatment.

Posted by dwight moody on January 9, 2009 at 3:49 PM · Report

368

To DREAD's critics--a few questions:

1. To Psilly: one, since when are the words of the law irrelevant to the enforcement of the law? (If words did not matter in legal matters, there would be no such phrase as "the letter of the law.) Two, what on earth is wrong with writing to an advice columnist after an attack? I agree with the people who are urging DREAD to go to a counselor (preferably one with some compassion, unlike you), but that is no reason not to write to Dan.

2. For those of you who keep insisting that it was not rape because she eventually "consented" by not continuing to fight: just how far do you take this logic? What more does a woman have to do beyond saying "No" to make it clear that she is not consenting? What more evidence of non-consent do you need? And do you apply this to victims of other crimes? If, for example, I "consent" in the end to a purse snatcher because I fear greater harm to myself if I resist, was I not robbed of a purse because I "gave in" in the end?

I decided to rejoin this discussion, despite my disgust with some of the posters, because I do not want the last word on this discussion to be "there are two sides to every story." Yes, there are: but that point is irrelvant to this situation. Sure, rapists have their "side" too--I am sure that many of them were abused as children--but that does not matter in the end. If she says "no," it is rape--end of story.

Posted by Allyson on January 9, 2009 at 4:02 PM · Report

369

She needs to call the police ASAP. As for the ex-boyfriend, staying as far as possible from him is the best idea. He raped her, remember?

Posted by Scamp on January 9, 2009 at 4:13 PM · Report

370

I personally think DREAD shouldnt just tell the cops I think she should tell the Ex's Mom and see if she thinks what her son did was ok and wasnt rape

Posted by Stagger Lee on January 9, 2009 at 4:33 PM · Report

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Allyson:

In keeping with your analogy. If a friend of yours aggressively and abusively demanded your purse and you gave it to them because you didn't want to lose them as a friend. Then no you weren't robbed of a purse. You were manipulated into giving up your purse by a sick freaking asshole, but no you weren't robbed.

DREAD composed her letter to Dan after the attack had happened and she had time to think about it and analysis it. In her choices of words she shows that she thought it was important to convey to Dan that she was afraid of confronting her Ex about what he was doing because she enjoyed being friendly with.

That is the main reason why it's not making any sense to me. She could have asked Dan about her boyfriend not being supportive of her traumatic event by just saying she was raped by an Ex and he was having trouble dealing with it.

Telling the story like she did gives a reason to why the boyfriend would be acting upset about it. An "out" for the boyfriend so to speak. I don't know, maybe she wanted that doubt to be there so her current boyfriend would not appear to be an uncaring hateful monster. Any right minded person who's partner came home crying and said "I've just been raped" would NEVER blame the victim. If your partner came home crying and told the story exactly like DREAD has then even a loving caring understanding person would be thinking "did you really just say the reason why you didn't stop him was because you were concerned about keeping things friendly."

Anyways, Allyson, I agree with you in that some of the posts on this subject have been disgusting. I sincerely hope that my thoughts and ramblings on the situation aren't the ones that have disgusted you.

Posted by akseth on January 9, 2009 at 5:08 PM · Report

372

Mrclean, how was she asking for it? By drinking beers? By being a girl? By finally succumbing? Methinks from that response that you may have done the same thing to another girl. Asswipe.

I went to an all-boys high school. Early on, before I was ready to admit my homosexuality, the boys in my school would pull me into a room and touch my crotch and/or dryhump me, especially after I would scream "No!" My mother used to tell me I was "asking for it" when I came home and cried to her. To her, being gay somehow allowed the other boys to violate my body.

DREAD...it is NEVER, NEVER okay for someone to violate you. Even if you say "no" at first and then succumb, it's still rape, at least in Pennsylvania (where I live...I don't know where you live; the laws vary from state to state). If you want, you should consider talking to a prosecutor and press charges. Anything to stop this guy from taking advantage of another girl.

Also, while I don't advocate the use of violence, Erin gave a wonderful piece of advice.

Finally, either talk to your current BF about how his lack of support perpetuates this violation. If he still blames you, DTMFA.

Posted by Falconpride on January 9, 2009 at 5:37 PM · Report

373

If someone picks up your kid at the playground and walks off with you asking him repeatedly to stop the perp is a kidnapper but your spouse is going to be more than a little mad at you that you thought a few pleas to stop was sufficient. Since DREAD asked her ex to stop several times before deciding to get it over with she was raped but there isn't a man out there that wouldn't be peeved at her. The assumption is that you fight hard for things you truly believe in and you opt for the path of least resistance for things that don't matter too much anyway.

Posted by They are both right and both wrong on January 9, 2009 at 5:55 PM · Report

374

"Kind of asking for it"? Wow, some ignorance there.

Posted by whoitisnt on January 9, 2009 at 6:01 PM · Report

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Allyson:

Since, like, forever. Precedence is the foundation of our legal system.

But that's not a real answer. The real answer is that what matters more than what the law says, it what the legal system does with it. If it were as clear cut as people would like it to be, then going to the police with the evidence and having a high conviction rate would be routine but they're not. The FBI reports that rape is one of the most under-reported crimes, for a reason, a sad reason, that "justice" as the law is written is rarely served. There are mechanical reasons for this, and also the fact that the jury is going to react a lot like some of the people in this forum....

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 9, 2009 at 6:24 PM · Report

376

Aight, look - the benefit of the doubt goes to the person refusing consent, always. For those of you who don't know and/or are too dumb to find out, consent has to be active and explicit: you can't reliably infer consent from someone's reactions, and you certainly can't say that inaction implies consent. If DREAD's story is even remotely accurate - which none of you have good reason to doubt - then we know for sure that she didn't give consent; moreover, we know that she withheld consent in both her actions and her words. What would you call it when someone persists in intercourse after consent has been withdrawn?

But okay, let's look at the objections. Could DREAD have been more clear or more forceful? Sure - but so could most rape victims, at least if we're going to compare their actions to what the ideal actions would have been. Is choosing to avoid seemingly worse consequences the same as wanting or consenting to have sex in this case? Hardly: if any of you detractors were being waterboarded by our dear friends at the CIA, it would exceed absurdity to say that your refusal to commit suicide is tantamount to wanting or consenting to torture. Is DREAD's situation just like giving your purse to a particularly insistent friend? Shit no, and if I have to explain why I might instead find you in person and sock you in the face. Does your personal experience with your ex-girlfriend or whoever make you an expert in what happened here? Nope. Does it diminish other instances of rape to call this rape? No, and even if it did, facts are facts - trying to redefine "rape" to be "nonconsensual sex that's at least as bad as this thing I went through once" borders on the childish. Finally, does it make any sense to defend the current boyfriend? Not much - he was thinking about getting married to this girl, but for some reason now he can't even find it in himself to give her a fair hearing. At the harshest, he should be asking for the same things people here have asked for: for DREAD to go to therapy or learn more how to stand up for herself, etc. It's deeply paranoid to keep the burden of guilt on her after multiple apologies and time to think about it.

This'll be my one and only post on this topic, so in expectation of everyone who disagrees with me: fuck off and die.

More...

Posted by larryniven on January 9, 2009 at 6:31 PM · Report

377

Not wanting to get beaten is not a crime. Not wanting to go though a trial and have to testify is not a crime. Not wanting to listen to the rumors that you were a slut and wanted it all along is not a crime.

Considering the way he was acting, I probably would have done the same in her situation. Decent people think "no" and "I can't" are HUGE turn-offs. If your ex doesn't smarten up, DTMFA, DREAD. you just went through a shitty experience and you deserve better.

Posted by Stabbity on January 9, 2009 at 6:33 PM · Report

378

Doh, I meant if the current boyfriend doesn't smarten up, dump his sorry ass.

Posted by Stabbity on January 9, 2009 at 6:36 PM · Report

379

You know I've said "no" in a sexual encounter and not meant "no". What I meant was "I feel awkward having sex on the stairs because they are so exposed." Which also meant "I want to but I'm wimping out". And my boyfriend completely ignored it.

He could tell from my body language and the tones of my voice what I truly meant.

I think many girls do say no at first to preserve their own image of themselves only to change their mind soon there after. And unfortunately some are coerced into staying silent and accepting sex without having changed their minds.

Allyson---->

"pushing someone down and repeatedly yanking someone's clothes off".

Now if DREAD had used those words, I would have a much different opinion of this incident. Those are chilling words that inspire disturbing mental pictures and the rightful formation of lynch mobs. :(

But DREAD said he pushed her against the car not down... and that he pulled her pants down not "yanked".

You know my boyfriend pushed me againgst the wall and pulled my pants down and I may have even tried to pull them back up again. But it was so NOT nonconsensual.

From her wording, this guy was aggressive and stupid... not violent. I'm truly assuming that her pulling up her pants and her pushes were as weak and meek as her "no's". And were possibly misinterpreted.

If they weren't, well that casts a different light.

The thing about this story is that everyone is seeing through a different filter of their experiences. You can tell from the parts of the story they focused on.

You see a rape, I see... well, I'm not sure. I don't think DREAD was lying but... I'm not sure about her perceptions, I guess.

More...

Posted by ccouch on January 9, 2009 at 6:40 PM · Report

380

I hate the limitation of the English Language sometimes. There really needs to be a different word for the type of behavior and situation in DREAD's story.

DREAD was horribly taken advantage of by a sick dickhead. She wasn't raped. I think Dan is doing a huge disservice to rape victims by repeatably calling what happened a rape in his response.

Everyone needs to stop thinking about their own stories. Stop projecting their own stories on to this one. Think about what exactly happened here according to the victims own words. And yes she is a victim, a victim of a predator there is no doubt about that.

There are several things that DREAD says that show she wasn't raped. She admits to "making out". She admits to saying "no i can't" instead of "no don't". Any decent person at that time would immediately stop and be cool with it. Obviously this fuckhead kept pressuring her. But christ people! She then says that she consented to having sex because she was "afraid of a confrontation because he and I have been friendly since we broke up." That's not rape!!! You can't be raped if you gave consent because you were afraid your asshole exboyfriend wasn't going to be nice to you anymore! What the fuck!?!

What happened is manipulation by a stronger will over a weaker will and it's wrong and should never be condoned. Something needs to be done about it for sure. I think calling the mother of the exboyfriend is a good idea. Definitely therapy for all the crazies. But pressing charges or beating/killing someone after you consented to sex to keep things friendly, that sounds a little Nuts, a little Crazy.

Posted by fadmad on January 9, 2009 at 6:45 PM · Report

381

DREAD was not raped. She did not have sex because of the use of force, threat of force, or an inability to consent. She consented to have sex because of persistence, emotional bullying, "a set of inhibitions," and societal norms "pounded into the heads of girls and young women." I guess you rightly buy into "girls will be girls, so blame the boy" much more than you do "boys will be boys, so blame the girl." The guy was a creep, should have stopped, should have seen that DREAD was not enjoying it, should have seen that DREAD wanted him to stop, and should be avoided by all girls in the future. However, DREAD does have some responsibility for what happened. It's shitty, but it is true.

Your advice is dangerous because it condones letting the woman give in without doing everything she can to stop sex she does not want. It seems that in that situation, the woman is the person in the best position to stop an event that will leave everyone worse off. The ex did not think he was raping her, and I read no indication he would have raped her on purpose. It may be because of societal norms pounded in the heads of girls and young women, but many clearly consensual sex encounters include meek "nos" and "I can'ts," and many boys are too dumb to tell the difference between a DREAD "no, stop it" and a Paris Hilton sex tape "no, tee-hee, stop it, tee-hee."

I am not saying that DREAD wanted to have sex with her ex. But consent given because she wanted to avoid confrontation does not equal no consent.

I wish DREAD the best recovery from her experience and hope that no woman goes through what she is going through.

Anonymous Creep

P.S.: http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2008…

Some quotes:

Researchers found that "men were accurate at interpreting direct resistance messages like 'Let's stop this.' But they were as apt to interpret 'Let's be friends' to mean 'keep going' as to mean 'stop.'"

(Interestingly enough, in previous research, Motley found that women use indirect messages of resistance to avoid upsetting men, but most men easily accept direct resistance.)

I also find it hard to blame men for not correctly reading women's indirect resistance; women are often expected to, in the very least, put on a halfhearted performance as the steadfast sexual gatekeeper . . . .

More...

Posted by Anonymous Creep on January 9, 2009 at 6:53 PM · Report

382

I read every single post! I want an award or something....
Also: it was rape. I know there's a lot of fuzziness and weirdness with a lot of the details, but it's pretty clear it fits the definition of rape. That doesn't mean the ex thought that what he was doing was rape or even something she didn't want. That doesn't change his guilt, but it's an important detail to keep in mind.
Also: DREAD knows some fucked-up people. If her ex's way of initiating sex is pulling down her pants and whipping it out in public, Dude has some serious problems and there's no way she could have dated him and not known. Even drunk, nobody who isn't used to behaving like this would suddenly behave like this in public. He's trash and she should have stayed the hell away from him for her own safety even before she learned what he was capable of. I'm not blaming DREAD, I'm just saying rule number one for personal safety is stay away from obvious assholes.
Also: DREAD is clearly not her own best advocate. Every follow-up post by her made the situation worse. Let that be a lesson to the rest of you.
Last but not least:
No means no.
Teenagers are stupid.
Women need to assert themselves more.
Men need to stop being aggressive assholes.
Sex, relationships and emotions will continue to confuse and hurt us, keeping Dan in business.
Now it's time to stop reading this shit and get some work done!
***TOPIC CLOSED!***

Posted by Done on January 9, 2009 at 8:47 PM · Report

383

Wow. In the case of DREAD, not to put the blame on you while you were under the influence but you should have KEPT SAYING NO. The best way to keep somebody from raping you is continuing to fight. Either he would have stopped, or you could have seriously pressed charges on his ass because as Dan said, you probably wouldn't be able to convict him because you let him rape you.

I would also second the counseling. Something you did or said made this asshole think that he could do this to you, and he was right because you did. You need to figue out what signal you were putting out that made him feel that he could get away with this and confront him about it. You may have some type of hangup on this man because you said you guys have been friendly and you didn't want to mess that up but since you were broken up, friends or not he doesn't get that privledge anymore. THIS MAN IS NOT YOUR FRIEND, now you understand that but while everything was happening your first thought should have been to kick his ass, not let him do it because you were friends.

As for your boyfriend, I can see if you still had a thing for your ex, where he would be feeling the way he feels. On the other hand, clearly the ex took advantage of you in a vulnerable moment, whether you still had feelings for him or not, and he needs to acknowledge that you were raped. I would encourage you to encourage him to go kick his ass. If he can't at the very least admit you were raped then you should dump his ass because anyone who would stand by and let this guy get away with what he did (including yourself), is a giant fuckwad.

Posted by Sera on January 9, 2009 at 9:15 PM · Report

384

"No matter how many years of martial arts a girl can take, any fat fuck off the street can still out muscle her and rape her. You're a bastard for being so thoughtless that you cant understand that." --this turns out not to be true. I know a well trained female jiujitsu player who schools--repeatedly--large and stronger men in her class. Also, she'll never get raped like the column girl because she doesn't put herself in grave danger--drunk and alone. I've had 16 years of martial arts myself and never used them--never put myself in those situations, and true random attacks are rare.

Posted by yon on January 9, 2009 at 9:15 PM · Report

385

Anonymous Creep, I *don't* find it hard to blame men who keep going after being told NO *several* times...oh, and that part about pulling one's pants BACK ON several times.

Posted by dd on January 9, 2009 at 9:26 PM · Report

386

OK:

ccouch: the difference between "pulled" and "yanked" is not self-evident, to put it mildly: and pushed is pushed, whether it is against a car or down. In either case, having ones clothes forcibly removed several times and being pushed anywhere is clearly the application of force...

Had she TRULY changed her mind about saying "no," there was one clear thing she would have said that would have made this a non-rape situation: namely, "OK, yes, I change my mind, let's do it." No where in this story is there ANY evidence that she in fact changed her mind. In the absence of that, this *is* in fact rape.

Psilly: precedent is not set in a vacuum. It is (when properly developed, at least) based on the written word of the law. So, yes, words matter in the legal system.

And DREAD, if you have the stomach to keep reading these comments: more power to you. I wish you and all survivors well.

Posted by Allyson on January 9, 2009 at 10:46 PM · Report

387

Dan, you forever assume that everyone can control their weight. Some can and some can't. It depends on what's going on with their individual body. (I know this first hand as I am a huge fatty who eats a starvation diet, never ever eats sugar, is in monthly contact with a nutritionist and an endocrinologist to monitor my diet and exercise, etc. If I eat over 1500 calories a day I start packing on weight. Actually, I think it's lower than that now. Yes, I'm disordered, but many fat people are similarly disordered. There's no way to tell who is who - fat from fast food or fat from genetics.) Yes, the fatty boyfriend should take up a healthier lifestyle, but not because he's not sexy enough anymore. He should do it to be healthier. If hotness follows, great, but if not, then his manny IS being shallow for not rolling with life. I met my husband 20 years ago. He's changed a lot. I can't even see him anymore, I don't think. I only see the hottest man I've ever met in front of me, because I'm madly in love with him. That's how that works if you're in it for the right reasons. Do people really expect their mates to stay the same. Time turns everyone into either a wet marshmallow or an old leather handbag. If you love them, you tend not to notice.

Posted by Scarlet Ibis on January 9, 2009 at 11:55 PM · Report

388

It would be interesting to hear the ex-boyfriends side of the story. How different would it be? I have no doubt that DREAD feels like she was raped- reading her story it sounds like rape to me but what about his side of the story?

Ex-boyfriend if you are reading this thread- Please give your version of incident

Posted by Matt Mullaney on January 10, 2009 at 5:50 AM · Report

389

One thing that complicates any discussion of rape is that we treat it like a light switch, on or off, it was or it wasn't. But life is more complex than that, as the examples in the comments show.

Treating rape so simplistically is not good for anyone, including the survivors, because it makes people more likely to try to invalidate the survivor's experience over concern for fairness for the perpetrator.

Why don't we recognize different degrees of rape like different degrees of killing someone? First degree murder is obviously different than involuntary manslaughter because the perpetrator had different degrees of intent or premeditation, even though the end result on the victim is the same -- the victim is dead.

A perpetrator in an unwanted sexual assault can likewise have different degrees of intent or commit the crime in different ways, and therefore deserve different kinds of punishment. But many of us only recognize "rape" or "not rape" and try to apply the same rules to all cases. That's what's broken.

Futhermore, sexual assault is even more complex, because the end result is not something unambiguously undesirable (death). The end result is sex, and some people unfortunately DO at times give mixed signals about whether a particular sexual encounter is desired (consensual) or not, and many of those signals are non-verbal.

DREAD'S ex clearly was sexually aggressive and used some degree of force and sounds like an asshat. Was he also a rapist, and if so, to what degree? Anyone accused of a crime has their own side of the story and deserves their day in court, especially in an edge case like this. I say that not to be disrespectful to DREAD, but because everyone deserves the same respect we would show to DREAD, to listen and try to understand what happened.

DREAD I'm so sorry for your trauma - because clearly what happened was traumatic - and wish you all the best in healing in your own way.

More...

Posted by SR on January 10, 2009 at 7:18 AM · Report

390

With a simple headline, JEZEBEL has thrown its hat into the ring:

"Savage Love Commenters Don't Know Assault When They See It"

http://jezebel.com/5126221/savage-love-c…

I hope the editors at JEZEBEL are appropriately embarrassed, ashamed and chastened now that the conversation among their more elite readers has devolved into the same arguments here with many of the same points being made.

I personally, having been quoted by JEZEBEL, have tried posting around 5 responses to no avail - they won't publish them.

So, to all of the people here from JEZEBEL, welcome, and do us a favor here, let the editors over there know that their readers aren't any more enlightened than Dan Savage's, or, perhaps, this story isn't as clear as they've portrayed it.

Posted by Psilly Cybin on January 10, 2009 at 11:02 AM · Report

391

I agree that she needs to go to the police. Immediately. Get it on the books. Silence = death. If she can't bring herself to do it for herself, please please do it for all of us other women. We must stand together.

Posted by sflovestory on January 10, 2009 at 11:15 AM · Report

392

For all those folks who say "It wasn't rape because it wasn't violent enough" or "It wasn't rape because mine was worse:

I've been in three car accidents in my life. Two were minor, I was rear-ended by an older guy who reactly slowly and I backed into another car in a parking lot. In the third car accident I was pronounce dead on the scene. I wasn't, obviously [I was in shock and had no pulse, but I wasn't actually dead]. The cop who claimed I was dead later told me he couldn't imaging how someone could sustain such horrific injuries and still be alive.

So my third car accident was worse than the first two - that doesn't mean that the first two weren't car accidents.

Dread was raped.

Posted by schweighsr on January 10, 2009 at 12:27 PM · Report

393

One thing that had occurred to me while reading DREAD's story was that at her age, you really ARE just beginning to learn how to keep yourself safe.

I had a lot of good guy friends in high school that I trusted like brothers, so I didn't tend to see guys as a threat. Then one day I went for a short hike to spark one with a friend of a friend... I will never forget the energy shift when I realized that he wanted to fuck me, and thought he was actually going to get to- even though I was repeatedly telling him (nicely) that I wasn't interested. Finally I said something to the effect of "it ain't gonna happen, so knock it off" and started walking back to the trailhead... really, anything other then a firm "no" means "try harder" to assholes like this...

I suppose he could have tackled me, but cowards like that are usually looking for an opportunity to say they 'mis-read' your cues, so he didn't touch me. I think he also realized that he risked the wrath of my guy friends if he pushed any harder, LOL... It was a terrifying moment, but what it taught me helped me avoid worse situations in the future. This was a guy who knew I was into someone else and was only interested in him as a friend, so why he thought this would fly...? He was an opportunist creep! Had I been more intoxicated, more considerate of his feelings, or maybe just more shocked/confused/ambivalent/frozen- I could see how it could have gone down in a similar way to DREAD's situation.

Yes, women need to do everything they can to keep themselves safe. But learning to tell the wolves from the sheep can be tricky, and I don't think it's quite fair to DREAD to look at her situation through anything other then the eyes of an 18yo young woman. Remember, she is barely more then a teen still, and she does not have the life experience that she will at 23 or 28 or... at that age, you are still feeling like the world is in your hands!

DREAD, what happened is fucked, and while making different choices may have prevented it, hindsight is 20/20- I mean, one WOULD think that it would be safer to have a guy friend walk you to your car late at night... right? Sadly, you trusted the wrong guy, but that's NOT 'asking for it'...

Be kind to yourself as you walk through this (((hug))) and if your current BF can't be supportive (and yes, if he's going to hold this over your head as proof that he can't trust you, then he needs to re-examine that) DTMFA! I can understand him feeling like you maybe should have done more, but unless he's been in a similar situation (sadly all too common for young women, but highly unlikely for most guys) he really has no place to make that call. Perhaps he has victim issues and this is interfering with his ability to be supportive of you? If you two are truly serious about a future together, then counseling for BOTH of you might help- then again, 18 is pretty young to be thinking about marriage (and this is coming from someone who married their HS sweetie) and there are plenty of guys out there who have it in them to be SUPPORTIVE when their partner has been hurt, regardless of their own mixed feelings.

That said, if she was 32 instead of 18, my opinion would be a little different... but then, generally by the age of 32 most of us have met enough wolves that we've gotten better at keeping ourselves safe(r)... she's not much more then a baby still, IMO... and this was a shitty way to have to learn who not to trust.

More...

Posted by SeattleMama on January 10, 2009 at 1:50 PM · Report

394

That's NOT rape.

Posted by whatever on January 10, 2009 at 3:13 PM · Report

395

How 'bout you drop the subtlety, Dan. (Dang, never thought I'd write that!!) "...AND the BBW who wastes away to skin and bones after she lands an admirer." Has anyone ever come across one of these? Me either. I'm picking up on some dishonesty myself.

Posted by slinger on January 10, 2009 at 3:15 PM · Report

396

Concerning the ex-bf rapist, I don't understand why Dan believes that going to the police would be a futile exercise. It sounds like a pretty clear-cut rape to me- guy got her alone, she said no, guy forced himself on her. Maybe the ex-bf won't end up in jail, but at least it'd be a lesson to him and others like him.

Posted by just sayin' on January 10, 2009 at 5:26 PM · Report

397

I like how it is always the guys fault, what her legs were broken? she couldn't run? Scream, YELL, kick, BITE, No? but "Lets cry rape, and ruin some guy's life because i cant deal with the consequences of my own action."

Posted by theReverend on January 10, 2009 at 8:32 PM · Report

398

I encourage Maclean to FUCK OFF. Dread, you're stronger than you realize.

Posted by emmmalie on January 10, 2009 at 9:29 PM · Report

399

Another reason people should not try and be "friends" or "hang out around" their ex's. Male, female, rape, no rape, nothing good ever comes from hanging out with ex's especially if you are trying to maintain a new relationship.

Posted by taco on January 10, 2009 at 11:10 PM · Report

400

Absolutely Taco. Women shouldn't try to stay friends with their ex's. I mean, everyone knows that if a woman hangs out with any man who is not her husband, it suggests to him that she is his property. And if she used to be his property, it gets really confusing for him. This kind of thing wouldn't happen if women would just stay home and leave parties and socialising to the men like they did in the good old days. I mean, what was she doing at a party anyway? who does she think she is? a person?

Posted by Sacha on January 11, 2009 at 1:20 AM · Report

401

Another girl that claims "rape" after a booze-ridden sexual escapade she regrets?

Boring.

Posted by John on January 11, 2009 at 1:30 AM · Report

402

Usually, I have to go to Free Republic to find this kind of compassion.

Posted by montex on January 11, 2009 at 2:15 AM · Report

403

Now this is more like it. Interesting comments. As for the dis from Jezebel, you ought to check their comments. It's like high schoolers texting.

As for the rape question, seems like a big batch of people want to rush to judgement. If the perp would have been a stranger (or not someone DREAD had been w/ b/f) this would be cut and dried RAPE. She said, "No," etc, he wouldn't stop: that's rape. Sure.

But, come on, since they have a history it gets more complicated. We've heard her story and if it's accurate, if they have no history of saying "No" means try harder, or show more ardor, then it sounds like rape. That is, whether she walked out to the car alone w/ him or not, or whether she eventually relented. If there is no history in which "No" does NOT necessarily mean No then it's rape. Based on her story. But, really, we would need to hear his story b/f judging, right? In this kind of case we'd want to hear his side and ask all kinds of questions that are coming up here (of both of them) to ground all the speculating we're doing, right?

Being violated like that by a former boyfriend DREAD must feel qualms ab her actions. Which is why I think some want to rush to the rape judgement. It's out of sympathy for DREAD, as a way to assuage her potential guilt. But I doubt a verdict from the peanut gallery at Savage Love will do the trick. That's the sad part here. I mean, victomhood is a headfuck. Writing a letter to Savage Love is fine but, if you ask me, DREAD ought to start seeing a counselor for awhile.

Posted by McLuvin on January 11, 2009 at 2:34 AM · Report

404

If you ever need evidence that we live in a rape culture, here it is!

She said no! She pushed him away. She pulled her pants back up. That's clear. If any of you mean think that means "yes" than I suggest some serious soul-searching. Anytime there are clear signals that someone doesn't want sex, like I don't know, SAYING NO or PHYSICALLY RESISTING, here? Why don't you ask them, nicely, if they would like you to walk them back or have sex with them? Done.

Posted by Delta on January 11, 2009 at 3:00 AM · Report

405

to the first letter. in MN if someone says NO then ITS RAPE NO MATTER WHAT and punishable by law

Posted by Mike on January 11, 2009 at 3:04 AM · Report

406

Thanks, Dan for answering the fatty one. I am a straight girl and I work out and think it's important to my sexual pleasure to be with someone who turns me on visually. I had so much trouble telling my ex that I wished he would work out. I did tell him, but he naturally just reacted with defensiveness and we eventually stopped having sex and separated. It's so hard to reconcile that superficial side of attraction. Especially when I'm not always perfect either.

Posted by djhatemail on January 11, 2009 at 6:03 AM · Report

407

There is no such thing as coincidence. How did DREAD find herself at a party, attended by her ex, drunk, and escorted alone to her car? Why not get into the car and drive off the first time he touched you in a way that was inappropriate? Why not call someone on your recently retrieved cell phone? Why was the phone forgotten in the first place? Why was your boyfriend not there? You must have known that the ex was going to be there through mutual friends? Did you in fact plan to see him there?

I agree with Dan that DREAD was raped. DREAD should be seeking charges against him. I think that if this was such a henious act that DREAD would have sought help and justice immediately afterwards. This may have just been a clever way to break up with her boyfriend and not seem the bad guy. She did mention that they were having problems and although she seems genuinely hurt she is not taking the steps neccessary to resolve the issue in the mind of the one person she cares for. She seems bent on sparing the feelings of the rapist.

Posted by D Hop on January 11, 2009 at 7:26 AM · Report

408

Here's a question: why did DREAD ask her evil ex to go to her car with her in the first place? It's an honest question.

Posted by E on January 11, 2009 at 8:09 AM · Report

409

Dan, your little note at the end of your reply to REAM meant nothing given that you'd already used the words "fatties" and "fatosphere". REAM writes that his dude is "gaining weight". You didn't even bother to ask how much weight. Instead, you immediately relegated him to the realm of "fatties". What is a fatty? Is someone a fatty if they weigh five pounds more than some weight chart says they should weigh? You seem to have as much prejudice against men who are the least bit overweight as REAM seems to have. REAM should go after the kind of guy he wants (I think his current partner will be better off without him), but please spare us the fake concerns about being "awful" and "selfish". And Dan, you could have spared us your fake note to the "infuriated fatosphere". Real nice, that one.

Posted by queerlovingbrother on January 11, 2009 at 8:13 AM · Report

410

DREAD,

from the way you write, you sound like a confident, self-assured girl. Perhaps that's why your boyfriend is having a hard time believing that you were raped. He probably has no idea what it's like to be victimized by someone who is supposed to be your friend, and how confusing that is even though everything you think you could have done to stop it seems so obvious after the fact.

So find some other sources to back up your claim. Show him the letter to Dan Savage, the responses, websites explaining date rape. Show him other sources that explain why even tough, confident women can be reduced to whimpering victims in the face of sexual assault. Does he have a good female friend, sister, maybe a cool aunt who you might feel comfortable enlisting for help?

If that still doesn't work, you should think long and hard about how much you want to save a relationship with someone who doesn't trust you. And rape is a terrible thing to go through on your own. You might think you're over it, but the fact that you're feeling guilty doesn't bode well for recovery. If you can, talk to a counselor or therapist. It really does help.

Posted by Angie on January 11, 2009 at 9:05 AM · Report

411

Oh, and Psilly, are you, like, the guy who did this? Do us all a favor and walk in front of semi or something.

Posted by Angie on January 11, 2009 at 9:19 AM · Report

412

yes, she was raped. But not because she was physically forced. This was more of an emotional (as she describes her conflict). If we open the door to emotional rape, I'm afraid that we've all been raped at some time, and perhaps repeatedly. I know I have. And I'm a guy. And gay. Am I being raped when I have to pity-fuck somebody, which in a way she ultimately decided to do?

Posted by Perhaps Controversial on January 11, 2009 at 9:41 AM · Report

413

Maybe the tight-bodied fag should get to the root of why his beloved is gaining weight. Eatting disorders aren't just for fourteen-year-old girls, and can be some serious shit.

Posted by theres.a.reason.you're.fat on January 11, 2009 at 9:59 AM · Report

414

As far as I'm concerned the real tragedy is that we've trained so many women that in a situation like that they can't/don't/aren't allowed to scream/hit/gouge eyeballs/kick/smack eardrums/take whatever steps are necessary and escalate until the ex's behavior stops. Even if he's lying in a heap at the end of it.

This woman has been victimized twice: once by her ex and continually by her societal training.

Posted by Bonedoctor on January 11, 2009 at 10:52 AM · Report

415

Sacha, you sir, are an idiot. Both sexes are incapable of maintaining friendly relationships with exs. Not just women.

Posted by taco on January 11, 2009 at 10:55 AM · Report

416

this really angers me that any man would read the first story and blame the victim!! are you for fucking real??! YES she was raped for the very simple reason that if that was your daughter, your sister, hell your mother and she told you a story like that would you go, "well you know could have just fought back?" you are a sick bastard, and i'm almost convinced a rapist yourself, if you on any level at all think it was her fault.

as for the victim, talk to the cops, get some conseling, drop the new boyfriend. he's really not all that much better than the rapist.

Posted by lisha on January 11, 2009 at 12:41 PM · Report

417

i'm sorry dan--"if the circumstances were just a little less ambiguous...you would be going to the police." what the hell is ambiguous? if she was raped, as we can all agree she was (including you), the first thing she should be doing is going to the police about this guy. contact him? face him? call him? what planet are you on, dan? this is beyond petty conversation. i'm ashamed for you for giving such poor advice.

Posted by sneaks on January 11, 2009 at 2:48 PM · Report

418

Actually..no means "no". Female or male should only have to say it once! No matter what you are wearing (or not wearing) or how much you had to drink, or who you just broke up with. Anyone who forces themselves on another is assaulting. As soon as we start honoring ourselves and standing up when violation occurs, the sooner we can be empowered enough to accept responsibility without shame and see a way to change.

Posted by zengirl on January 11, 2009 at 3:24 PM · Report

419

how is she so 'vulnerable'?? it's not like dude had a knife or randomly jumped out of the bushes. simply tell the guy to fuck off, get in the car and drive away. i see girls outside clubs slapping pushy guys straight in the face whenever they don't want their attention all the time. they don't meekly cower and let anybody do anything to them. stand up for yourselves people

Posted by lulzcow on January 11, 2009 at 3:36 PM · Report

420

thanks for the DREAD letter. it means a lot to me and i'm sure tons of other people who have been in almost identical situations.

Posted by - on January 11, 2009 at 3:45 PM · Report

421

Actually, no means, "no" and one should only have to say it once. No matter what you are wearing, how much you've had to drink, or who you just broke up with. Any forcing after the word no has been uttered, is assault. The sooner we start to honor ourselves, stand up, AND accept responsibility for what we do without shame, the sooner we can see our way to change. This story is way too common.

Posted by zengirl on January 11, 2009 at 3:48 PM · Report

422

"having sex with a woman who has consumed alcohol--whether you have also consumed alcohol or not--is rape"

Bullshit. First of all, men and women shouldn't be treated differently under the law. Second, if you get drunk and consent to sex (even if you wouldn't have while sober), that's YOUR DECISION. Take responsibility for your actions. If you get drunk and drive a car, you have to accept the consequences. If you get drunk and punch someone (even if you otherwise wouldn't), you have to accept the consequences.

Now, if you're passed out or otherwise incapable of giving consent, then it's rape. But if you consent to having sex, then it doesn't matter if you've been drinking: it's not rape.

Posted by The Truth on January 11, 2009 at 3:59 PM · Report

423

My first reaction to the DREAD letter was mockery. I couldn't believe that this naive girl thought she could get away with pretending that she had no part in the act of sex.
A gay man knows my woes more than I do.
I am not going to get into a large speech about how women have been dealing with a wound so deep we can't recognize it ourselves, but thank God someone gets it. Dan you helped that girl more than you know, and a lot of other women as well.
So few people realize how mistaken we are about ourselves.
I am so happy it was you and not myself who answered her letter.
I would have told her to stop pretending, to admit she must have wanted it if she didn't stop it.
Even after being in the same position myself, having sex just so the guy wouldn't be annoyed that I came over to his house for nothing.
Thanks, Dan, for this glimpse of understanding that I hope will grow into a permanent awareness.

Posted by boai on January 11, 2009 at 4:14 PM · Report

424

I agree DREAD was assualted, bullied, and violated and that the ex is a jerk. But I can't buy calling it "rape".
She eventually consented, and while it was under a certain degree of duress, it wasn't a degree comparable to the threat of violence.
She chose to let him have his way out of a desire to avoid a scene and not damage their relationship.
She feels violated and she was, but she wasn't raped. I think to call it rape diminishes the term. If it matters, I'm a woman.

Posted by iswhatitis on January 11, 2009 at 5:15 PM · Report

425

I have a few ideas I'd like to share:
-I hope this thread gets men and women really thinking about these situations BEFORE they happen, so if any of us are put in the situation later on, we'll be more prepared to deal with it at the time.
-I hope young women especially are getting ideas about how a lot of "rapish" situations occur: with alcohol, with an aggressive ex, alone with a stranger, etc. When I was a younger woman, I used to put myself in risky situations without thinking. I would go back to a guys apartment I had just met, had been drinking with all night, then be surprised when he assumed we would have sex. I know it seems rediculous, and it is, but I was really just very naive.
-I suppose in retrospect, when I told that one guy I didn't want to have sex with him multiple times, but then was naked and making out with him, it was mixed signals. I thought the line was clear, but I don't think my situation would have held up in court, because I had consented to making out with him. I probably would have been written off as being a tease. And, in my situation, the guy was really drunk as well, and probably didn't think my 'no's' meant 'no,' since I was rubbing him on me. (yes I'm being vague; don't feel like going into too much detail.)
-I think a lot of women have these "YuckFuck" stories and just accept them or don't talk about them.
-I also think I used to be so scared of being labeled a bitch or a feminist (sad that that's a bad word) when I was younger, that I wouldn't take an confrontational stand when appropriate. I'd think about it later on my own, and then make a decision about the issue. As I've grown up, I've gotten less and less scared to say BACK THE FUCK OFF.
-Putting yourself in a dangerous situation can seem like an okay idea at the time, it might even be fun, like being alone with a stranger at a party, or going to an afterbar.
-Just talking from personal experience, not about/regarding DREAD.
-DREAD- don't be afraid to talk to a professional if you have some issues due to this. If you are in college, it may be offered for free.

More...

Posted by Fern on January 11, 2009 at 5:56 PM · Report

426

how was she asking for it?

Posted by Bugger Queen on January 11, 2009 at 9:24 PM · Report

427

I know gator 765 is trying to be helpful, but he could have stopped at saying that this woman was overpowered emotionally and physically by this man and that it was obviously not her fault.

The claim that any man is able to rape any woman if he wishes is the kind of illogical myth that keeps women hiding indoors and seeking protectors.

Posted by Martha on January 11, 2009 at 9:26 PM · Report

428

don't get drunk near dickheads. male, female, dog, cat, racoon, elephant, whomever.

And totally agree you should slice the ex's nuts off.

Posted by blind thought on January 11, 2009 at 10:12 PM · Report

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January 8, 2009

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