To become a "member" at Mars Hill Church requires more than attending church. Becoming a full-fledged member—a process highly encouraged, and sometimes thunderously demanded, in Pastor Mark Driscoll's sermons—requires months of classes and a careful study of Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe, Driscoll's 463-page Mars Hill textbook. To seal the deal, the prospective member must formally agree to submit to the "authority" of the Mars Hill leadership.
Driscoll, the church's cofounder and public face, has made a name for himself with his strutting, macho interpretation of Christianity, one in which men are unquestioned heads of their households and "chick-ified church boys," as he calls them, need not apply. He rails against mainstream Christians who imagine a "Richard Simmons, hippie, queer Christ... a neutered and limp-wristed popular Sky Fairy." Instead, he has molded a doctrine based on manliness, sexual purity, and submission to authority: wives to husbands, husbands to pastors, and everyone to God.
Lance, a soft-spoken ex-military guy whose real name is not Lance, started attending Mars Hill Church in early 2008, became a full member before the year was out, and by October of 2010 was deeply and happily immersed in the life of the church. It was, he says, "like a second family." Around that time, Lance says he "did something I shouldn't have done." (I told Lance I wouldn't divulge his "sins," but they were amorous indiscretions that anyone who isn't a fundamentalist Christian, Jew, or Muslim would find extremely minor.) Lance said he "felt like a hypocrite," so he voluntarily confessed and submitted to six months of counseling and spiritual probation.
In August 2011, a few months after his full restoration to the church, Lance was enjoying life in a Mars Hill house, living with other men and paying his rent in volunteer labor. But that autumn, he had a disagreement with one of his pastors over a building-safety issue during a church party. As Lance tells it, the pastor said Lance was being overcautious, Lance disagreed, and the disagreement metastasized into a weeks-long debate—not about the safety issue, per se, but about whether Lance was being "insubordinate" and refusing to properly "submit."
"I began to question their authority," Lance says, "and their ability to make good decisions."
In the midst of this, Lance had begun a long-distance relationship with a young woman in Colorado. Lance says that his pastor instructed him to end the relationship, even though their relationship was not yet physical and nothing improper had happened. Lance balked, but his pastor insisted: "I'm the authority over you," the pastor said, according to Lance. "You agreed when you became a member that I am your authority, and you have to obey us." Lance was torn—on one hand, he had signed that membership contract.
On the other hand, this was ridiculous.
In a final, tense meeting, Lance got fed up with the leadership's harping about submission and authority. "How is this not a Jim Jones theology?" Lance remembers asking. "We don't even think you were a Christian to begin with," the pastor retorted, according to Lance, and left the room. The church told him to move out and, if he wouldn't submit to church demands, to cut off any communication with members of Mars Hill.
Lance quit the church.
But the church didn't quit him. Not only was he barred from speaking with his now-former friends at the church, Lance says his pastor threatened to contact any future church that he might attend. And then Lance's pastor took the extra step of calling the father of Lance's girlfriend in Colorado. "They were warning him how dangerous I was," Lance says. "That I was on a path of destruction that could result in the death of his daughter."
That father, Lieutenant Colonel Mike Hanyok, is a retired marine and evangelical Christian who says the Mars Hill leadership overstepped its authority. "There is church leadership to guide and provide order," he says, "but not lordship over the congregation." Hanyok spent 21 years in the US Marines and says, "Poor leadership is one of my pet peeves... the church isn't to come in and tell me how to manage my family." Hanyok says he used to watch Driscoll's sermons online, but doesn't anymore.
Lance calls the church culture "manipulative" and says, "I don't want this to happen to other people... It's how people wound up drinking Kool-Aid." He adds, "I still love Jesus. But I can continue my spiritual walk just fine at a different church... Mars Hill seems crazy to me now."
Last week, a similar story from a former Mars Hill member named Andrew erupted into an online firestorm that left some church critics, including longtime members who've since departed, wondering aloud whether Mars Hill is crossing the line from church to cult.
On January 23, Andrew released some internal church disciplinary documents to the blog Matthewpaulturner.net. Andrew had sinned by kissing a woman who wasn't his fiancée and then confessed the sin to his community-group leader. In Mars Hill parlance, "community groups" are breakout sessions that happen throughout the week. Everyone attends a weekend service at one of the 11 Mars Hill campuses to watch a live broadcast of Driscoll preaching from his Ballard church, and then attends various community groups—often in people's homes—to discuss the week's lesson.
After Andrew confessed his sinful kissing to his community-group leader, he says he was asked to step down from church responsibilities, forced to attend lots of meetings and confessions over the course of a month about his sinful action, and asked to agree to a "discipline" plan, which included the following acts of repentance and submission: "Andrew will not pursue or date any woman inside or outside MH; Andrew will write out in detail his sexual and emotional attachment history with women and share it with [redacted]; Andrew will write out in detail the chronology of events and sexual/emotional sin with [redacted] and share it with [redacted] and Pastor [redacted]..."
After thinking it over, Andrew refused and quit the church—but just like with Lance, the church didn't quit him. In a letter Andrew says is from Mars Hill, one pastor told members to shun Andrew because he refused to "submit to his church leaders" and to not discuss anything with him besides repentance. It even offered a few helpful lines for awkward encounters: "Andrew, I would enjoy time with you, but I can't because you're under church discipline. You can join me if we can talk about your refusal to listen to God and the church."
Once Andrew leaked the documents, the Christian blogosphere exploded with indignation. People were furious about the church's invasive demands: to stop dating until told otherwise, to write "in detail his sexual and emotional attachment history with women," to cut off ties with his friends at Mars Hill. It seemed less about getting right with God than public humiliation and congregation control.
Blog posts appeared with titles like "Never Mind Andrew's Sin, What About Mars Hill's Sin?" And "Spiritual Abuse Must Stop." And "Mark Driscoll: Worst Pastor Ever?" The blog Marshillrefuge.blogspot.com was launched, full of stories similar to Lance's and Andrew's. "This," the blog's preamble says, "is meant to be a safe haven for those who have been wounded by their experience with Mars Hill Church."
The woman who runs the blog is an on-fire-for-the-Lord type who tried, with her husband, to join one of Mars Hill's new spin-off churches. They were frustrated by what they saw as demagoguery and poor leadership by the young, inexperienced men running the community groups: "EVERYTHING," she writes, "always comes back to DOCTRINE, not JESUS." Eventually, the couple left. Even though they had not become full-blown members, their community-group leader demanded an explanation from the husband anyway. When the husband said, in essence, it's none of your business, he says the group leader questioned his faith in Jesus and ability to lead his family, and accused the couple of stirring up division (a common charge from Mars Hill). "We have never again heard from any of our friends from that group," his wife writes.
Mars Hill pastor Jeff Bettger responded to queries from The Stranger about these stories with a long, heartfelt e-mail. He confirmed some of the stories, did not deny the rest, and wrote:
I personally have never known anybody at Mars Hill who would harass, blackmail, verbally abuse, or belittle ex-members. I would actually say that over the last few years Mars Hill has increasingly become more loving, kind, generous, and humble. I have been seeing this over and over from leadership at Mars Hill, and from members. We know we are not perfect, but we believe in an active God who loves us... The way God is growing this Church, I don't believe anybody would even have the time, let alone the interest, to follow ex-members around. We have a difficult enough time maintaining all the work that needs to get done from week to week as well as meeting with all the people who want counsel and are hurting.
The Stranger attempted to contact several current members of Mars Hill, but none of them responded to requests for comment.
The music critic Chris Estey, who used to attend Mars Hill in the early days, remembers the moment he started drifting away from the church. He was walking out of one especially long-winded service by Driscoll and joking to a friend: "Hey, that guy needs an editor!" He says he was "accosted" by other churchgoers: "They were saying, 'How dare you! He has vision and you have no idea!' I kinda started separating then. That was the first time I'd had that culty feeling."
Mars Hill began in the late 1990s, bouncing between apartments, parks, and spare rooms. It appealed to young people who felt out of place in other churches. By 2008, it was the 23rd-fastest-growing church in the United States, with a 38 percent bump in attendance in a single year, according to Outreach magazine. New campuses opened across the city. The Acts 29 Network, founded by Mars Hill and led by Driscoll, "planted" dozens and dozens of new churches across North America, creating a dense network of churches that are not tied to a denomination, but to Mars Hill. In 2006, Mars Hill claimed $31,110,000 in assets. (According to a church-generated report—since it's a church, Mars Hill is not required to publicly disclose its tax returns.)
As the church grew, Driscoll became more visible, landing high-profile gigs (like an appearance on Loveline with Dr. Drew) where he drew more criticism. Also in 2006, he infamously commented on Ted Haggard's meth-and-prostitute scandal by casting aspersions on Haggard's wife: "A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband's sin, but she may not be helping him either."
Around the same time, one of Mars Hill's three cofounders suddenly left the church with little explanation and started a pizza restaurant in Redmond. Two prominent and well-liked pastors (Paul Petry and Bent Meyer) were fired during a debate over how to restructure the church—one for "displaying an unhealthy distrust in the senior leadership," and the other for "disregarding the accepted elder protocol for the bylaw deliberation period" and "verbally attacking the lead pastor." In other words, for not being submissive. (When contacted for this story, Petry simply said: "I don't really have anything to add at this time.")
The congregation was in an uproar. "That was a wild time," says Dusty Wisniew, who has since left the church but says he still respects it. "There were tons of people asking a bunch of questions." Driscoll answered questioners in a sermon: "Some adults are just always questioning... these are people with critical spirits. These are people that if you answer their question, they've got 25 more questions, and they'll have questions forever. And it's not that they have questions, it's that they're sinning through questioning. The heart is not good."
All church memberships were suspended, Wisniew says, and people were encouraged to reapply under the new organizational structure, with new requirements—or quietly leave. One day during that period, Wisniew delivered some money from the Wedgwood campus to the Ballard campus. "All over the place, there was this poster that said 'membership = discipleship.'" He decided not to renew his membership. He's still close to many at Mars Hill and still admires Driscoll. But, he says, "I believe that what unites us isn't a piece of paper. It's the blood of Jesus."
Last Sunday morning, a few hundred people filled the downtown branch of Mars Hill Church to hear Pastor Mark Driscoll deliver a sermon titled "Men and Marriage." It was the third in an 11-week series based on his new book ($12.49 at Amazon.com) and DVD curriculum ($24.99 at Christianbook.com), cowritten with his wife, Grace, called Real Marriage. I attended to see if Driscoll was going address the recent storm of criticism online.
After the band played two indie-rock hymns, Pastor Driscoll appeared on a live video feed from his Ballard church. His "Men and Marriage" sermon was relatively tame: A husband should be the firm and responsible head of his household, the leader of a "little flock called home and family." He should think of his wife as "a garden" and himself as "the gardener." If you look at your garden and don't like how it looks, Driscoll preaches, just remember: "You are the gardener."
He said he knows his views are unpopular—that he's even been called a misogynist. "And I don't even know how to give a massage," he joked, his eyes twinkling roguishly toward the camera that was beaming his image to 11 screens in 11 churches across the city, as well as churches in Oregon, New Mexico, and California.
The thing his sermon didn't address—the thing I came hoping to hear about—was when submission to human authority goes too far.
Whatever the controversies, Driscoll shows nothing but confidence in himself and in the future of Mars Hill, including a plan for the next generation called "Mars Hill Kids." "I want to start preparing our children for ministry at age 2," he said in a video last summer. He has proposed building a "Nickelodeon-type studio" to broadcast kids' shows and indoor play structures at every Mars Hill property to attract kids, "especially the boys, the kinesthetic learners, so they can get a little activity." (Imagine being the gay kid—or the kid everyone thinks is gay—at that playground.)
There would be special child worship time conducted by adults and handpicked child apprentices. That cadre of children would grow up through the ranks, studying a children's version of Doctrine, along with DVD classes and Doctrine-related homework to ensure, Driscoll says, "an integration between church and home." Driscoll has also said he wants to commission a new illustrated children's Bible. "Kinda cool, dark, a lot of the bloody Old Testament stories so the boys'll like it, too," he said on one video, winking. "We're gonna do it Mars Hill–style."
The point of Mars Hill Kids, Driscoll says, is continuity:
So that when the kids grow up, they don't do like most kids and just leave after high school, but they realize: "Well, I'm ready for the Doctrine class. I can become a member. I've been doing this curriculum since I was 2! Of course I'm going to join a community group: I've been in one since I've been in a diaper. And I know how to sing songs, and I'm okay with video because that's what I've been doing for a really long time—so I'm an old-school, 18-year-old veteran."
What does it mean that Driscoll imagines keeping people, who've been studying his Doctrine from the age of 2, in Mars Hill after high school? Does he want to keep kids from growing up and moving away from Seattle to go to college, start jobs, and begin their own lives? Or does he imagine that, in 20 years, Mars Hill churches will be everywhere?
Either way, Driscoll imagines his flock—the membership model, the community groups, the Doctrine—as permanent. Womb to tomb. Just as long as you don't ask too many questions. 
This article has been updated since its original publication.
3
I attended MH off and on when it was in the U Dist. I had friends that went and I wanted to stay connected to the church though my own faith was dwindling. I'd been in churches like this before and it didn't take long to realize that it was turning into a cult of personality just like all of the churches prior did. It's been years since I attended MH, the last time I was there Mark finished a sermon stating that questioning him was demonic. It's a huge church and I know people don't like being called a cult but I'd really encourage members who might read this to do some research into what a cult is, how it maintains control and do some thinking about it.
4
Thank you so much for writing this. It needs to be made abundantly clear that there is not one iota of difference between Mars Hill and any other fundamentalist mega-church, regardless of how they market themselves.
6
@4, That's one of the reasons why I'm always surprised when people engage the theology of Mars Hill rather than its structure and practice. Theologically, there's nothing new or different from hundreds of churches around the country. But the structure of the church, the aesthetics, the size, and emphases on some of those standard theological stances (rather than the stances themselves) are what sets it apart.
7
Is this some kind of joke? What the fuck is wrong with these "church" people and their stupid behavior? Bunch of holy twisted dipshits.
8
"A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband's sin, but she may not be helping him either."
To be fair, isn't this the same view Dan Savage has, minus the religious aspect?
Also, who could think a religious group named "Mars Hill" was anything other than a cult to begin with?
To be fair, isn't this the same view Dan Savage has, minus the religious aspect?
Also, who could think a religious group named "Mars Hill" was anything other than a cult to begin with?
9
"There would be special child worship time conducted by adults and handpicked child apprentices. That cadre of children would grow up through the ranks, studying a children's version of Doctrine, along with DVD classes and Doctrine-related homework to ensure, Driscoll says, "an integration between church and home." Driscoll has also said he wants to commission a new illustrated children's Bible. "Kinda cool, dark, a lot of the bloody Old Testament stories so the boys'll like it, too," he said on one video, winking. "We're gonna do it Mars Hill–style.""
So, how does this not sound like mental programming?
So, how does this not sound like mental programming?
10
"His 'Men and Marriage. sermon was relatively tame: A husband should be the firm and responsible head of his household, the leader of a 'little flock called home and family.' He should think of his wife as 'a garden' and himself as 'the gardener.' If you look at your garden and don't like how it looks, Driscoll preaches, just remember: 'You are the gardener.'"
The really messed-up part is, that IS relatively tame, and it still makes me sick to my stomach. What a dreadful man.
The really messed-up part is, that IS relatively tame, and it still makes me sick to my stomach. What a dreadful man.
11
My heart is hurting for people who have been deeply hurt by a church in my area. As a leader in a church I know that it is not hard to offend someone. As someone who goes to a church I know that it is not hard to be offended.
But the stories that I am hearing lately are too much. Church discipline is intended to ultimately be redemptive, to help people get closer to Jesus. It's not intended to show your power or authority over your followers.
Pastors can you please take a moment to pray for the people in your area who are hurting because of church leadership. It's not fair to those people that their image of Jesus is tarnished because of human agents.
The truth is that we are all incredibly broken people. The grace of Jesus is the only thing that helps us get our lives back together. Can we talk more about that? Can we humbly recognize our need for Jesus?
Leaders, let's get out of the way of people who are trying to find Jesus. We are not meant to be gatekeepers of faith. We are guides. The only reason that we can guide anyone in their faith journey is because some one guided us. That person was a broken human too.
Let's be honest.
Let's be humble.
Let's celebrate Jesus' transforming love and grace.
Let's help people walk away from sin and towards the grace that we find in the Cross of Christ.
I think that's what people are looking for when they come to church for the first time.
Love.
Hope.
Healing.
Forgiveness.
Compassion.
Community.
We should be the best at creating environments like this because we have received all of this from Jesus in the first place.
But the stories that I am hearing lately are too much. Church discipline is intended to ultimately be redemptive, to help people get closer to Jesus. It's not intended to show your power or authority over your followers.
Pastors can you please take a moment to pray for the people in your area who are hurting because of church leadership. It's not fair to those people that their image of Jesus is tarnished because of human agents.
The truth is that we are all incredibly broken people. The grace of Jesus is the only thing that helps us get our lives back together. Can we talk more about that? Can we humbly recognize our need for Jesus?
Leaders, let's get out of the way of people who are trying to find Jesus. We are not meant to be gatekeepers of faith. We are guides. The only reason that we can guide anyone in their faith journey is because some one guided us. That person was a broken human too.
Let's be honest.
Let's be humble.
Let's celebrate Jesus' transforming love and grace.
Let's help people walk away from sin and towards the grace that we find in the Cross of Christ.
I think that's what people are looking for when they come to church for the first time.
Love.
Hope.
Healing.
Forgiveness.
Compassion.
Community.
We should be the best at creating environments like this because we have received all of this from Jesus in the first place.
12
My heart is hurting for people who have been deeply hurt by a church in my area. As a leader in a church I know that it is not hard to offend someone. As someone who goes to a church I know that it is not hard to be offended.
But the stories that I am hearing lately are too much. Church discipline is intended to ultimately be redemptive, to help people get closer to Jesus. It's not intended to show your power or authority over your followers.
Pastors can you please take a moment to pray for the people in your area who are hurting because of church leadership. It's not fair to those people that their image of Jesus is tarnished because of human agents.
The truth is that we are all incredibly broken people. The grace of Jesus is the only thing that helps us get our lives back together. Can we talk more about that? Can we humbly recognize our need for Jesus?
Leaders, let's get out of the way of people who are trying to find Jesus. We are not meant to be gatekeepers of faith. We are guides. The only reason that we can guide anyone in their faith journey is because some one guided us. That person was a broken human too.
Let's be honest.
Let's be humble.
Let's celebrate Jesus' transforming love and grace.
Let's help people walk away from sin and towards the grace that we find in the Cross of Christ.
I think that's what people are looking for when they come to church for the first time.
Love.
Hope.
Healing.
Forgiveness.
Compassion.
Community.
We should be the best at creating environments like this because we have received all of this from Jesus in the first place.
More...
But the stories that I am hearing lately are too much. Church discipline is intended to ultimately be redemptive, to help people get closer to Jesus. It's not intended to show your power or authority over your followers.
Pastors can you please take a moment to pray for the people in your area who are hurting because of church leadership. It's not fair to those people that their image of Jesus is tarnished because of human agents.
The truth is that we are all incredibly broken people. The grace of Jesus is the only thing that helps us get our lives back together. Can we talk more about that? Can we humbly recognize our need for Jesus?
Leaders, let's get out of the way of people who are trying to find Jesus. We are not meant to be gatekeepers of faith. We are guides. The only reason that we can guide anyone in their faith journey is because some one guided us. That person was a broken human too.
Let's be honest.
Let's be humble.
Let's celebrate Jesus' transforming love and grace.
Let's help people walk away from sin and towards the grace that we find in the Cross of Christ.
I think that's what people are looking for when they come to church for the first time.
Love.
Hope.
Healing.
Forgiveness.
Compassion.
Community.
We should be the best at creating environments like this because we have received all of this from Jesus in the first place.
14
I'm sure that all complaints about the behavior of church members will be met with the "No true Scotsman" defense.
15
Any church that is unwilling to face the scrutiny of questions is a church to run away from. In my mind, religion went wrong when people stopped listening to God and starting speaking on God's behalf. Authority without accountability is not religion, it's Fascism.
Turn off the TV, shut off the phone and sit quietly for awhile. You can connect with God without the middle man.
Turn off the TV, shut off the phone and sit quietly for awhile. You can connect with God without the middle man.
16
@8 and @13 - also, dan doesn't put the responsiblity for the CPOS's cheating on the spouse. driscoll draws a causal line b/w the unattractive/unavailable spouse and the cheater's cheating. dan simply acknowledges that refusing to take care of oneself can be damaging to a sexual relationship for a whole host of reasons. but, ultimately, the cheater is always responsible for his cheating. period.
17
Almost all Evangelical churches hate the congregation questioning the leadership, but Dribble has been able to take that to a new level of signing contracts, cutting people off from their community, friends and families, literally demonize it, and mix it with fear of women and gays, while adding a violent sort of macho jesus into the mix. This is new higher level toxic concoction we've seen from other area cults similar to Mars Hill like Community Chapel (look it up, great parallel story line) and Casey Treat's Christian Faith Center.
Brendan - thanks for staying on top of this story. It's going to get worse. As church members get cut off from their non-church friends and families, they will completely dedicate their lives and finances to Dribble and Mars Hill, and we'll soon get another Jonestown. Hopefully the leaders of Mars Hill won't get the local political power that Jim Jones got. Their hate of women and homosexuals should limit that.
Brendan - thanks for staying on top of this story. It's going to get worse. As church members get cut off from their non-church friends and families, they will completely dedicate their lives and finances to Dribble and Mars Hill, and we'll soon get another Jonestown. Hopefully the leaders of Mars Hill won't get the local political power that Jim Jones got. Their hate of women and homosexuals should limit that.
18
Where are these young Jesus lovers coming from? Are they born and raised in the northwest? It's freaking me out they live amongst us. They could be sitting right next to you on a bus or in a restaurant. Very unsettling to think about.
19
I hope his wife takes good care of herself so he can resist the temptation of male prostitutes and meth.
20
#16, I think Dan's position is that you owe your spouse the sex they want as long as it is within reason. If you don't comply, the spouse has a right to seek it elsewhere, and you are somewhat to blame because you didn't try harder. Which is what Driscoll seems to be saying, as well.
While Dan doesn't make the distinction between male and female in terms of responsibility, the fact that something like 99% of these letters come from frustrated guys generally makes it seem like the onus is on the woman.
While Dan doesn't make the distinction between male and female in terms of responsibility, the fact that something like 99% of these letters come from frustrated guys generally makes it seem like the onus is on the woman.
23
PastorJD, I admire your sense of compassion, but church leaders who just 'pray about it' and say 'God will work it out' are exactly the reason why Mark Driscol and those like them have been allowed to thrive. Modern Christians are cowards, and they shouldn't be. How about you stop praying about it and start doing something about it?
24
Mark Driscoll has built his career on subverting the truth and hurting others. There is a new website dedicated to fact-checking him:
http://driscontinuity.tumblr.com
http://driscontinuity.tumblr.com
26
I'm a member of Mars Hill dealing with a lot of my own junk, and I have never received anything but love and help from an awesome group of people who admit that are hurting as well. I'm sorry for anyone who has been hurt, but I come from the Bible belt and was exiled for my sins. Mars Hill has taught me what the love of Jesus really looks like and how very much His grace abounds.
27
Thank you for the coverage Brendan, I am the husband from the husband and wife part of your article. We were only at the MH Church plant for a total of seven our eight months and with our community group for 3 or 4 months. I cannot imagine how much more difficult it can/ will be for those inside the closed system of MH for years. We ultimately want to Glorify Jesus and edify without becoming bitter, spiteful and vitriolic. That being said the CG in our circumstance had the full support of pastoral staff and used language strikingly similar to that used in Andrew's discipline letter. I have no doubt they were running us through the channels of discipline but did not state as much to us, probably because they know I would have come unglued on them at that point. We also were very worried about telling the pastor where we planned to attend next after leaving as we were hyper aware of the possibility he would call ahead.... he said as much when I talked to him saying he wanted to "hand us off smoothly to our next church."
There is something broken in the ecclesiastical structure of Mars Hill and until Mark is humble enough to acknowledge it and fix it, these stories will continue coming out... whether it's a slow drip of stories or a pounding trip hammer I am not sure, but it will continue. And each one represents someone who has gone through a horrible amount of pain and suffering.
There is something broken in the ecclesiastical structure of Mars Hill and until Mark is humble enough to acknowledge it and fix it, these stories will continue coming out... whether it's a slow drip of stories or a pounding trip hammer I am not sure, but it will continue. And each one represents someone who has gone through a horrible amount of pain and suffering.
28
Brainwashing a child from the age of 2 is easier than disabling the kid's bullshit detector after it has begun to form...of course they want the really young'uns! What I'm trying to figure out is why this isn't widely regarded as developmental abuse.
You should be free to martyr your intellect on behalf of a ridiculous invisible sky-daddy of your choosing, but doing that to your child's intellect is disgraceful. Where do the parent's civil rights end and where does the child's begin?
You should be free to martyr your intellect on behalf of a ridiculous invisible sky-daddy of your choosing, but doing that to your child's intellect is disgraceful. Where do the parent's civil rights end and where does the child's begin?
30
Thank you for the coverage Brendan, I am the husband from the husband and wife part of your article. You can read my take at:
http://twocleareyes.blogspot.com/2012/01…
We were only at the MH Church plant for a total of seven our eight months and with our community group for 3 or 4 months. I cannot imagine how much more difficult it can/ will be for those inside the closed system of MH for years. We ultimately want to Glorify Jesus and edify without becoming bitter, spiteful and vitriolic. That being said the CG in our circumstance had the full support of pastoral staff and used language strikingly similar to that used in Andrew's discipline letter. I have no doubt they were running us through the channels of discipline but did not state as much to us, probably because they know I would have come unglued on them at that point. We also were very worried about telling the pastor where we planned to attend next after leaving as we were hyper aware of the possibility he would call ahead.... he said as much when I talked to him saying he wanted to "hand us off smoothly to our next church."
There is something broken in the ecclesiastical structure of Mars Hill and until Mark is humble enough to acknowledge it and fix it, these stories will continue coming out... whether it's a slow drip of stories or a pounding trip hammer I am not sure, but it will continue. And each one represents someone who has gone through a horrible amount of pain and suffering.
http://twocleareyes.blogspot.com/2012/01…
We were only at the MH Church plant for a total of seven our eight months and with our community group for 3 or 4 months. I cannot imagine how much more difficult it can/ will be for those inside the closed system of MH for years. We ultimately want to Glorify Jesus and edify without becoming bitter, spiteful and vitriolic. That being said the CG in our circumstance had the full support of pastoral staff and used language strikingly similar to that used in Andrew's discipline letter. I have no doubt they were running us through the channels of discipline but did not state as much to us, probably because they know I would have come unglued on them at that point. We also were very worried about telling the pastor where we planned to attend next after leaving as we were hyper aware of the possibility he would call ahead.... he said as much when I talked to him saying he wanted to "hand us off smoothly to our next church."
There is something broken in the ecclesiastical structure of Mars Hill and until Mark is humble enough to acknowledge it and fix it, these stories will continue coming out... whether it's a slow drip of stories or a pounding trip hammer I am not sure, but it will continue. And each one represents someone who has gone through a horrible amount of pain and suffering.
31
I grew up in some slightly out-there churches with some qualities in common with Mars Hill, particularly the emphasis on discipleship. They were kinder, gentler churches, often started by ex-hippies of the kind that Mark Driscoll would surely like to beat up. Anyway, these churches could still be crazy-making and manipulative and abusive, though generally in a passive-aggressive way.
What strikes me as funny is that some of the nuttier people in those churches would look at Driscoll's hyper-masculine approach combined with the name Mars Hill, then would assume that the church is named after the Roman god of war and masculine aggression, and therefore would assume that the church is under the influence of a pagan/demonic spirit of war or something else like that.
It's so easy to see demons behind those who disagree with you when you've outlawed critical thought.
What strikes me as funny is that some of the nuttier people in those churches would look at Driscoll's hyper-masculine approach combined with the name Mars Hill, then would assume that the church is named after the Roman god of war and masculine aggression, and therefore would assume that the church is under the influence of a pagan/demonic spirit of war or something else like that.
It's so easy to see demons behind those who disagree with you when you've outlawed critical thought.
33
Anybody remember the anabaptists?
They made aup part of the original settlers from europe to America. They were demonized and driven from europe for... wait for it... refusing to baptize newborns, claiming that they could not be saved since they could not make the decision themselves to accept jesus.
Round and round the mulberry bush...
They made aup part of the original settlers from europe to America. They were demonized and driven from europe for... wait for it... refusing to baptize newborns, claiming that they could not be saved since they could not make the decision themselves to accept jesus.
Round and round the mulberry bush...
34
I went to Mars Hill a few times at the invite of a coworker many years ago – when it was in that lovely (Presbyterian?) church off Marion. Everyone there seemed old to me, though there couldn’t have been many people there over mid-thirties. Someone stole my really great, really expensive-for-me sunglasses.
I kept meaning to go back but never got around to it. Looks like I dodged a bullet there. Of course, I doubt they’d have let me become a member. I always asked too many questions in Bible study. Turns out you can only go if you accept their presentation of Biblical fact and not ask about the nonsensical parts.
I kept meaning to go back but never got around to it. Looks like I dodged a bullet there. Of course, I doubt they’d have let me become a member. I always asked too many questions in Bible study. Turns out you can only go if you accept their presentation of Biblical fact and not ask about the nonsensical parts.
35
if you really think about it...SO many things in our culture could be classified as a "cult" democrat/republican groups, world peace groups, anti-gay and anti-war groups....it goes on forever. and I would like everyone to think about the possibility of the stranger being a cult also! Either way, EVERY organization you MUST take with a grain of salt and be weary of your involvement and ALWAYS investigate your personal involvement in it. and always remember, when you point a finger, there are 3 pointing right back at you!!
36
I decided to leave MH a few weeks before all this stuff came out for similar reasons. Don't get me wrong, I still love Jesus and I plan to find a new church that doesn't exercise extreme control over me. I feel foolish for falling into this trap but I thank God he gave me the wisdom to see what was going on. There are many at MH that truly love Jesus and serve him. I pray for all of them and I trust that God will make corrections where they need to be made.
37
These cults are all alike, and can be summarized by the saying (oft repeated in my former cult):
"The question mark (?) is in the shape of a serpent [the devil]. Beware the questioning mind."
Questions about anything were discouraged, but especially those about church authority or dogma. It's all mind control, with the consequences of 'rebellion' [independent thought] being hell, or the equivalent.
"The question mark (?) is in the shape of a serpent [the devil]. Beware the questioning mind."
Questions about anything were discouraged, but especially those about church authority or dogma. It's all mind control, with the consequences of 'rebellion' [independent thought] being hell, or the equivalent.
38
@35 - "But when you really think about it, isn't *everybody* a cult maaaaaaaaan"
*GROAN*
If you're from Mars Hill, just say so. No need to play the passive aggressive card.
And The Stranger would make a pretty ineffective cult - everybody here is disagreeing and arguing and questioning everybody else ALL. THE FREAKING. TIME.
*GROAN*
If you're from Mars Hill, just say so. No need to play the passive aggressive card.
And The Stranger would make a pretty ineffective cult - everybody here is disagreeing and arguing and questioning everybody else ALL. THE FREAKING. TIME.
39
Just making a note here, the statement "Andrew had sinned by kissing a woman who wasn't his fiancée" indicates that Andrew cheated on his fiancée by kissing another woman, it's not to mean that Mars Hill has a policy that a man cannot kiss a woman until they are engaged.
40
Gloomy Gus, Catalina Vel-Duray and I remember the Reverend Bob Moorhead sex scandal at Overlake Church back in the '90s, don't we, kids?
41
Why is The Stranger so obsessed with Mars Hill? Seems very odd to me. Yes, we get it, Seattle doesn't believe in God. Just keep flipping until you get to the porn in the free newspaper because that is so much better for people of all ages to view than a pastor who teaches about how God is love.
42
Good reporting, thanks! It reminds me how much things have not changed in 2000 years. Like the reference to the Anabaptists above, the entire history of Christianity is chock full of similar stories. Not to insult anyone, but when you start to 'Believe' you begin a transformation into a mindless follower. Many can keep a balance between belief and rationality, a sort of suspension of disbelief, but only on Sundays. Its a day off for the rational mind. The rest of the time they can be perfectly reasonable people. As long as you can pass as one of them and your not openly gay, transgender, polyamorus, Islamic, etc. Used to be you couldn't jewish, too, but they relaxed that once the jews stopped wearing the funny hats all the time.
43
Well done, Brendan. You are a treasure to this city. If there was a Genius Award for Journalism, I would nominate you, sir!
44
As a local church leader who is not affiliated with Marshill in any way I have a question. Can we actually trust non biased opinions to come from any of the people that were interviewed? Every person interviewed was a person that was hurt by the church in one way or another. I know Ex Marshill members who go to my church, many of which were hurt during some of these shake ups, and one thing i can say is that you can't necessarily expect a non biased opinion from these people because of the pain they feel has been inflicted on them. Considering the Church is over 10,000 people now, I believe, if it was as bad as people say it is, shouldn't that number be much smaller? Especially when you consider that the vast majority of those attendees are Seattle area young adults who have been taught since youth that much of the stuff Marshiil is being accused of is wrong (evil?). Yet they choose to go on their own initiative and continue to go. Despite the harsh criticism they continually get hurled at them. People just need to be honest and say the main reason many people don't like Marshill, or any other theologically conservative evangelical church, is because they believe that what these churches teach is wrong and what they believe is right. So they accuse any other group that holds to a tradition and teaching other than their own to be dangerous and wrong to plant in the minds of people. Especially children. Even though the other side could lash back with the exact same kind of argument.
I know none of you will probably agree with what i had to say and that's fine. But I'll continue to minister to those who feel like they have been hurt by leaders from Marshill or whatever church, and I pray that these other churches will reciprocate the favor when people that I'm sure I will unintentionally hurt go to their Churches.
God Bless.
More...
I know none of you will probably agree with what i had to say and that's fine. But I'll continue to minister to those who feel like they have been hurt by leaders from Marshill or whatever church, and I pray that these other churches will reciprocate the favor when people that I'm sure I will unintentionally hurt go to their Churches.
God Bless.
45
#44 "Considering the Church is over 10,000 people now, I believe, if it was as bad as people say it is, shouldn't that number be much smaller?"
We're talking about believers here. Not exactly the smartest of the bunch. The fact that they believe any of this nonsense kinda plants them firmly in the 'poor decision-makers' camp in the first place.
We're talking about believers here. Not exactly the smartest of the bunch. The fact that they believe any of this nonsense kinda plants them firmly in the 'poor decision-makers' camp in the first place.
46
Big deal, the atheists I know are bigger control freaks.
I just fail to see why people complaign about others, whom are going about their own business.
There must be a scripture or two that deals with this issue.
I do like the rare occasion when I am asked I have found Jesus yet. Yes, I can say: "I didn't realize he was still missing", with a straight face.
I just fail to see why people complaign about others, whom are going about their own business.
There must be a scripture or two that deals with this issue.
I do like the rare occasion when I am asked I have found Jesus yet. Yes, I can say: "I didn't realize he was still missing", with a straight face.
47
Mars Hill Church -- what a waste of time. That's why I worship at the Church of Jessica instead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl7_6X9V1…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl7_6X9V1…
48
@44, I'd be surprised if that many Mars Hill members are young Seattlites who have grown up around Mars Hill. I'd bet a lot are people who have moved to Seattle and attended relatively conservative churches in their hometowns, or are from the suburbs. Could just be because most the people I know personally who go there fall into one of those two camps.
49
Just to clarify some things for you, Brendan. The sermon preached on Sunday was recorded before the article came out on Matthew Paul Turner's blog. Hence, why Mark didn't address it in the sermon Sunday.
I agree with Pastor Jeff's quote. Also, Mark encourages attendees to educate themselves outside of MH church as well. The articles circulating in the last week have led to a lot of discussion & interpretation inside the community groups at the church, so please don't assume we are mindless followers. The MH people I know still weigh everything the leaders say against the word of God & the discerning leadership of the Holy Spirit. It's realizing that every quote, verse, statistic, etc. needs to be analyzed against the context to which it came from, otherwise, yes, it's very easy to slip into ignorance.
It's understanding that I call myself a follower of Christ & a Christian before I call myself a Mars Hill member.
I agree with Pastor Jeff's quote. Also, Mark encourages attendees to educate themselves outside of MH church as well. The articles circulating in the last week have led to a lot of discussion & interpretation inside the community groups at the church, so please don't assume we are mindless followers. The MH people I know still weigh everything the leaders say against the word of God & the discerning leadership of the Holy Spirit. It's realizing that every quote, verse, statistic, etc. needs to be analyzed against the context to which it came from, otherwise, yes, it's very easy to slip into ignorance.
It's understanding that I call myself a follower of Christ & a Christian before I call myself a Mars Hill member.
50
Must we all be skeptics. What I'm saying is none of us is perfect. We all know even within our own homes there are misunderstandings and arguments that arise from mostly miscommunication issues. Lets be slow to judge people. About attempting to make everyone sign a contract for membership. What's wrong with attempting to set a bar of excellence. I wander why more church's don't do the same.
51
The LDS (Mormon) faith starts indoctrinating their youth at 4 years old. They call them Sunbeams. They wrote a song about Sunbeams and then you sing it in your Sunbeam class over and over. That is the beautiful beginning of a life filled with manipulation, fear, and guilt. It always starts off beautiful and innocent and turns into control. The LDS doctrine also states that the man is the head of the household and the woman is subject to him. The LDS faith also makes anyone over 8 years old (age 8 because that is when you are baptised and you now know right from wrong...) commit to and wear a CTR ring (Choose The Right) The LDS faith also envisions God as a manly, violent, jealous God. This all strikes me as very similar to the doctrine of Mars Hill. Watch out folks. The very minute your church asks you to sign a contract, do any "holy work" on any other day than a Sunday or gives you a "calling" It's time to leave. Any church that gets in between you and your wife, lover, relative or friend is no church at all. Hitler also had a plan for the youth.
52
Do some searches on the International Churches of Christ (ICOC) and Kip McKean. Exact same methodology, demand for unquestioning obedience, and "discipleship". It started in the late 70's (by a pastor later disbarred for homosexual acts with young congregants), and yet is still alive and kicking. Including here in Seattle.
Same Shit, Different Day.
Same Shit, Different Day.
53
Kudos to #7. I vote Church. Brenden Kiley is trying too hard to make this into a story. Can we please stop using rhetoric like this? This is on the same plane as calling someone a socialist.
I grew up in an evangelical church much like this one. There's a reason I left. The Pastor and the leadership of the church are obviously taking it too far, but they aren't anywhere close to asking anyone to drink the koolaid.
People like that can't control you if you don't let them.
There should be a standard of excellence, with limits. I've known a few would be ministers that are so two faced, I wonder if the people around them see it too. But balance would be nice, and no creepy stalking like calling the gf's parents! It's not a cult but I still would not want any of my friends to go there.
I grew up in an evangelical church much like this one. There's a reason I left. The Pastor and the leadership of the church are obviously taking it too far, but they aren't anywhere close to asking anyone to drink the koolaid.
People like that can't control you if you don't let them.
There should be a standard of excellence, with limits. I've known a few would be ministers that are so two faced, I wonder if the people around them see it too. But balance would be nice, and no creepy stalking like calling the gf's parents! It's not a cult but I still would not want any of my friends to go there.
54
#41, I suspect The Stranger is "so obsessed with Mars Hill" because it's an authoritarian, cultic institution that preaches a sexist, homophobic doctrine and tries to intimidate its members into signing discipline contracts. Of course, what do I know - I'm a hateful non-believer.
55
@53 - and if you haven't developed the emotional skills necessary to resist the control of people like Driscoll, what then? If you grow up in an abusive environment, quite often you don't learn to resist the siren song, and you end up at controlling places like Mars Hill.
I know not everyone who was abused as a kid grows up to repeat their childhoods. Some see through it and break free relatively early. But for those of us who don't, and who are still struggling, it's not as easy as it sounds.
I know not everyone who was abused as a kid grows up to repeat their childhoods. Some see through it and break free relatively early. But for those of us who don't, and who are still struggling, it's not as easy as it sounds.
58
This is a distorted and one sided article. Mars Hill church does not control or manipulate its members. I have attended this church for over 5 years and have been encouraged to follow Jesus and live a life that reflects scripture. The young
Man named Andrew did far more then just "kiss a girl" he was involved in repetive sexual sin with several young women in our church. He preyed upon them by pretending to be someone other then he really is and then he would take advantage of them. He was dishonest about who he is just like he was with the information given to the author of this news piece.
Man named Andrew did far more then just "kiss a girl" he was involved in repetive sexual sin with several young women in our church. He preyed upon them by pretending to be someone other then he really is and then he would take advantage of them. He was dishonest about who he is just like he was with the information given to the author of this news piece.
59
I'm freaked out by the entire thing, but this idea of gearing things to entertain little boys specifically is just soooooo creepy. It's like young male children are being fetishized by this church, while the girls are just cast off to the side until needed for procreation (or "gardening"?). At least that's the vibe I'm getting.
60
it's funny that from another, unrelated Mars Hill somewhere in the country, there was this pastor (who recently quit however)...
http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/6223…
...who seems to be the polar opposite of Driscoll.
sure I'm not Christian, but when I read things like "He rails against mainstream Christians who imagine a 'Richard Simmons, hippie, queer Christ... a neutered and limp-wristed popular Sky Fairy.' Instead, he has molded a doctrine based on manliness, sexual purity, and submission to authority..." I wonder what kind of a person would want to be under those terms? was Jesus' purpose really to brutalize gays, force the submission of women and ensure the meek inherited the Earth VIA CHRIST'S AMAZING BICEPS???
once the initial message is lost in transmission by a narcissist like Mark Driscoll, it doesn't matter how many time his followers say "God is love", they're not following God any longer.
http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/6223…
...who seems to be the polar opposite of Driscoll.
sure I'm not Christian, but when I read things like "He rails against mainstream Christians who imagine a 'Richard Simmons, hippie, queer Christ... a neutered and limp-wristed popular Sky Fairy.' Instead, he has molded a doctrine based on manliness, sexual purity, and submission to authority..." I wonder what kind of a person would want to be under those terms? was Jesus' purpose really to brutalize gays, force the submission of women and ensure the meek inherited the Earth VIA CHRIST'S AMAZING BICEPS???
once the initial message is lost in transmission by a narcissist like Mark Driscoll, it doesn't matter how many time his followers say "God is love", they're not following God any longer.
61
@58 That doesn't excuse the misogynism that is displayed. That doesn't excuse excluding other people constantly. That doesn't excuse talking about indoctrinating 2 year olds. Is this religion that fragile that it can't handle people making their decision on religion when they are old enough to actually understand it? I went to church myself until I was old enough to read and understand the bible and I decided it wasn't for me. I decided that I didn't agree with the bible. A 2 year old can't make that decision.
62
I can't fucking wait until Mark Driscoll gets caught doing blow of the chest of someone he found on rentboy.
63
Thank you for this article. You will never know how much. Sitting here crying. Have felt like killing myself because of the pain of past mistakes that have been dredged up since going here. I am a child of God that doesn't want to judge, not my place to. Going to Mars Hill these last few years, can't tell you how damaging, how 'second guessing'....
64
Since there seem to be a lot of Christians posting, I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of something. Jesus isn't real. Seriously guys, it's a fairy tale. Please read a book about this not written by a Christian.
65
And the faithful wonder why so many consider it imperative that the US maintain a separation of church and state...
66
This article starts with a one-sided story from a disgruntled former member (keyword "according to Lance)."
Then the main point of the article is that there's something wrong with this: "A doctrine based on manliness, sexual purity, and submission to authority: wives to husbands, husbands to pastors, and everyone to God."
First of all, everything there is totally biblical. Even so, it's not what the doctrine's based on. While Biblical submission, manliness, and purity are extremely important, they are only part of the doctrine, not the basis, as that's the Bible.
The writer of this article is more concerned with twisting the truth to make Mars Hill sound like a cult than taking a concerned analysis of a potential problem.
Case in point, the end of the article gives this quote (out of context), "When the kids grow up, they don't do like most kids and just leave after high school, but they realize: "Well, I'm ready for the Doctrine class. I can become a member. I've been doing this curriculum since I was 2!"
The author responds by saying, "Does he want to keep kids from growing up and moving away from Seattle to go to college, start jobs, and begin their own lives?" That's obviously a complete, almost funny perversion of the quote given, which is really just saying that people should stay active in a church all of their lives, not specifically or only Mars Hill.
So this article is basically just an attempt to paint Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll in the most negative light possible by distorting the truth. Even so, it doesn't make many compelling arguments not based in testimonies from disgruntled former members, and falls apart when one looks even slightly below the surface.
Then the main point of the article is that there's something wrong with this: "A doctrine based on manliness, sexual purity, and submission to authority: wives to husbands, husbands to pastors, and everyone to God."
First of all, everything there is totally biblical. Even so, it's not what the doctrine's based on. While Biblical submission, manliness, and purity are extremely important, they are only part of the doctrine, not the basis, as that's the Bible.
The writer of this article is more concerned with twisting the truth to make Mars Hill sound like a cult than taking a concerned analysis of a potential problem.
Case in point, the end of the article gives this quote (out of context), "When the kids grow up, they don't do like most kids and just leave after high school, but they realize: "Well, I'm ready for the Doctrine class. I can become a member. I've been doing this curriculum since I was 2!"
The author responds by saying, "Does he want to keep kids from growing up and moving away from Seattle to go to college, start jobs, and begin their own lives?" That's obviously a complete, almost funny perversion of the quote given, which is really just saying that people should stay active in a church all of their lives, not specifically or only Mars Hill.
So this article is basically just an attempt to paint Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll in the most negative light possible by distorting the truth. Even so, it doesn't make many compelling arguments not based in testimonies from disgruntled former members, and falls apart when one looks even slightly below the surface.
67
So the article starts with a one-sided story from a disgruntled former member (keyword "according to Lance)."
Then the main point of the article is that there's something wrong with this: "A doctrine based on manliness, sexual purity, and submission to authority: wives to husbands, husbands to pastors, and everyone to God."
First of all, everything there is totally biblical. Even so, it's not what the doctrine's based on. While Biblical submission, manliness, and purity are extremely important, they are only part of the doctrine, not the basis, as that's the Bible.
The writer of this article is more concerned with twisting the truth to make Mars Hill sound like a cult than taking a concerned analysis of a potential problem.
Case in point, the end of the article gives this quote (out of context), "When the kids grow up, they don't do like most kids and just leave after high school, but they realize: "Well, I'm ready for the Doctrine class. I can become a member. I've been doing this curriculum since I was 2!"
The author responds by saying, "Does he want to keep kids from growing up and moving away from Seattle to go to college, start jobs, and begin their own lives?" That's obviously a complete, almost funny perversion of the quote given, which is really just saying that people should stay active in a church all of their lives, not specifically or only Mars Hill.
So this article is basically just an attempt to paint Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll in the most negative light possible by distorting the truth. Even so, it doesn't make many compelling arguments not based in testimonies from disgruntled former members, and falls apart when one looks even slightly below the surface.
Then the main point of the article is that there's something wrong with this: "A doctrine based on manliness, sexual purity, and submission to authority: wives to husbands, husbands to pastors, and everyone to God."
First of all, everything there is totally biblical. Even so, it's not what the doctrine's based on. While Biblical submission, manliness, and purity are extremely important, they are only part of the doctrine, not the basis, as that's the Bible.
The writer of this article is more concerned with twisting the truth to make Mars Hill sound like a cult than taking a concerned analysis of a potential problem.
Case in point, the end of the article gives this quote (out of context), "When the kids grow up, they don't do like most kids and just leave after high school, but they realize: "Well, I'm ready for the Doctrine class. I can become a member. I've been doing this curriculum since I was 2!"
The author responds by saying, "Does he want to keep kids from growing up and moving away from Seattle to go to college, start jobs, and begin their own lives?" That's obviously a complete, almost funny perversion of the quote given, which is really just saying that people should stay active in a church all of their lives, not specifically or only Mars Hill.
So this article is basically just an attempt to paint Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll in the most negative light possible by distorting the truth. Even so, it doesn't make many compelling arguments not based in testimonies from disgruntled former members, and falls apart when one looks even slightly below the surface.
68
The leaders of this "church" buys lots of bling from my friend in a downtown Seattle fine jewelry store ( I won't name it to protect my friend).
THEY'RE RICH!!!
THEY'RE RICH!!!
70
Also, I find it amusing how many profiles have been created on SLOG today for the sole purpose of defending this church here in the comments thread. An email alert must have been sent out from Mars Hill.
71
"An email alert must have been sent out from Mars Hill." Knat, they probably did that or posted a memo on The City, which is where I suspect a lot of MHers got their info about Andrew being a "predator."
For the record, I created a profile here simply so I could refute this cult. Church. No, cult.
For the record, I created a profile here simply so I could refute this cult. Church. No, cult.
72
Thanks for the informative article. I will say, though, that I think the tone of this write-up is a little skewed towards "fear-mongering". In my opinion :P
But still, it's not often you get to hear about the harsher, stricter side of Mars Hill so I am appreciative to be able to hear a bit more about it.
But still, it's not often you get to hear about the harsher, stricter side of Mars Hill so I am appreciative to be able to hear a bit more about it.
73
Thanks for the informative article. I will say, though, that I think the tone of this write-up is a little skewed towards "fear-mongering". In my opinion :P
But still, it's not often you get to hear about the harsher, stricter side of Mars Hill so I am appreciative to be able to hear a bit more about it.
But still, it's not often you get to hear about the harsher, stricter side of Mars Hill so I am appreciative to be able to hear a bit more about it.
75
Lots of MH goons, my goodness. Don't you think it's a bit messed up to try and act as God under God's witness? Dudes on power trips who prey on suffering people? Looks like a wolf in sheep's clothing to me.
Why do you need someone to tell you how to live? What makes you happy that doesn't inflict harm on others? What the machismo in that scene takes away is empathy. It takes away life's natural balance.
Why do you need someone to tell you how to live? What makes you happy that doesn't inflict harm on others? What the machismo in that scene takes away is empathy. It takes away life's natural balance.
76
First off, the "andrew" issue is not telling the whole story and really lieing about what happened. He was dating and sleeping with her, he also was cheating on her with another member of the church, and then kissed another girl on top of that.
Mars Hill has helped a lot of people, myself included. There is a huge problem at the church with people not questioning authority (pastors) and not thinking for themselves.
All you can do is keep your faith in Jesus Christ. If it isn't biblical then don't even think about it. Membership or not, please make up your own mind and don't become a puppet.
Before writing an artical like this, GET ALL THE FACTS STRAIGHT!
Mars Hill has helped a lot of people, myself included. There is a huge problem at the church with people not questioning authority (pastors) and not thinking for themselves.
All you can do is keep your faith in Jesus Christ. If it isn't biblical then don't even think about it. Membership or not, please make up your own mind and don't become a puppet.
Before writing an artical like this, GET ALL THE FACTS STRAIGHT!
78
@58, I'd like to know your source regarding Andrew being a "predator." If it's the letter posted to "The City" then you've confirmed all of our suspicions of brainwashing and manipulation as you apparently get all of your information from church leadership. If you personally knew him or the people he "preyed" upon then you might have a valid argument.
79
@56 Your comment wins. If anyone else needs a religion, you can follow mine. It's the church of "The First Law of Thermodynamics"...
82
This article did not present a very balanced view of Mars Hill. Readers keep in mind that it is possible to take a few incidences out of the past of any entity no matter how wonderful, and make it look like the worst thing to hit the face of the earth. There is a reason the church has grown as fast as it has and its because its presenting the age old Gospel in a fresh way. Now we might not agree with everything Driscoll preaches and everything that is written in the bible, but trust me do not make a judgement of the church based on this article alone.
83
bloopbloop ... so Andrew told you he'd slept with more than one member of Mars Hill? That would be more than he admitted to in the pair of blog posts that touched off the latest kerfuffle. Why did Andrew tell the whole world one thing and then tell you something different?
84
Cults never last. Most likely, in another twenty years, Driscoll and Mars Hill will be history. God has a way of getting rid of those who abuse His flock. It would be better if a mill stone were tide around their necks and they be thrown into the sea. Vengeance is the Lord's, He will repay.
85
Victory Outreach of Seattle has the same MO..( ex-member of V.O. mens home rehab staff in ballard ) I,m what you call a Disgruntled Christian...Emerging Churches of today are sooo far gone and control is this main method for fame and $$$ ect...keeping the machine oiled and twist and disect the word of God . Also I may add that a Local Christian Collage may start trouble for honest working Americans go to http://spusucks.blogspot.com Thanks for the article and exsposed idiots that make Jesus look bad..., there day is coming !
86
I was telling people Mark was screwed up years ago. One of my best friends goes to his church and at that time he was telling his men to carry naked pictures of there wives with them so that they could masturbate to the. LOL What kind of pastors says this to there men? My mom screamed when I told her this she said" my Lord that is horrible, what if your dad lost his wallet" lol
87
It's all a cult anyway.
Doesn't take a genius to realize the origin myths of one's own culture are no different than the Greeks, the Zoroastrians, the Hopi, or the Aztecs.
A bit of light reading makes it abundantly clear that there's no archaeological evidence for Jewish enslavement in Egypt, among the other huge number of historical inaccuracies that come with fallible men from thousands of years ago authoring morality tales.
It's absolutely stunning that people in cults or organized religion, no matter how moderate crazy, cannot make these simple leaps in logic, particularly in an era of unprecedented access to information.
Doesn't take a genius to realize the origin myths of one's own culture are no different than the Greeks, the Zoroastrians, the Hopi, or the Aztecs.
A bit of light reading makes it abundantly clear that there's no archaeological evidence for Jewish enslavement in Egypt, among the other huge number of historical inaccuracies that come with fallible men from thousands of years ago authoring morality tales.
It's absolutely stunning that people in cults or organized religion, no matter how moderate crazy, cannot make these simple leaps in logic, particularly in an era of unprecedented access to information.
88
I don't know what's more scary: Mark Driscoll or all the people who are defending this guy in the comments section. I always thought Seattle was more progressive and intelligent than this. Are you really so lost and insecure that you need to follow a fictional "church" lead by a sexist misogynist who's only concern is to get more power, more control and more money? Mega churches frighten me more than almost anything else today.
89
The entire Acts29 Network has pastors that are exactly like this. Driscoll's influence is permeating churches across the nation. Case in point: Darrin Patrick, The Journey, St. Louis, Missouri. Multi-site, lots of press about the pastor's books, lots of press about the great things the pastor does, no questioning of the pastors or you are being "divisive", lots of secret church discipline, lots of mandatory "church counseling" (they even opened their own counseling center), and of course the letters to new churches if you leave.
90
As a pagan I object to their use of the name Mars in their title - trying to appropriate one of our sky gods is totally uncool! You've got your own whiny little deity, stick with him.
91
I wonder about people who need a megachurch or cult of personality to keep their religious faith. Is this an American phenomenon? You do know there are churches that have pastors and reverends who don't go on about delineating gender roles, right?
94
Amazing similarities to the origins of the Third Reich. Hitler Youth, blind obedience, macho violence, etc.
As to the claim cults don't last; true for Hitler. His only lasted around 13 years and 70 million or so dead afterwards.
As to the claim cults don't last; true for Hitler. His only lasted around 13 years and 70 million or so dead afterwards.
95
I think we need to understand that this article is pretentious and one sided. Like ANY church, it's flawed and is lead by an imperfect man. With that said, MANY people have met Christ because of this church. Many people who go to this church love Jesus, are kind, respectful and friendly. Last time I checked, people are flawed and messy and Mars Hill DOES recognize that they also fall short just like everyone else. SO many people have been going to Mars Hill recently, can we celebrate that it's bringing people together instead of causing division within our city.
96
I think we need to understand that this article is pretentious and one sided. Like ANY church, it's flawed and is lead by an imperfect man. With that said, MANY people have met Christ because of this church. Many people who go to this church love Jesus, are kind, respectful and friendly. Last time I checked, people are flawed and messy and Mars Hill DOES recognize that they also fall short just like everyone else. SO many people have been going to Mars Hill recently, can we celebrate that it's bringing people together instead of causing division within our city.
97
...and this article has sparked me to read these stories. if this article sparked some anger and/or sadness, you should read these as well.
http://pastormark.tv/2012/01/31/10-refle…
http://marshill.com/2011/04/27/amanda-go…
http://marshill.com/2009/10/01/seattle-a…
http://pastormark.tv/2012/01/31/10-refle…
http://marshill.com/2011/04/27/amanda-go…
http://marshill.com/2009/10/01/seattle-a…
98
When I went there many moons ago I found that what Mark would say was hyperbole but unfortunately many of his flock took it literally.
I wonder if Mark is taking it literally now? I wonder how he feels about what William Wallace II said?
I wonder if Mark is taking it literally now? I wonder how he feels about what William Wallace II said?
99
The Stranger always makes an interesting filter - and never fails to give the same spin on things. Typically it inspires me to look into the issue myself than taking this author's word for it. Definitely the case again - especially after hearing his own first hand experience. But maybe after the Superbowl.
102
Hi all, this is “Lance” from the article - Thank you Brendan for such a well written article.
A comment on objectivity caught my eye, as I am a fan of the objective. As for bias – I agree, I do have bias, I am angry at the pastors who looked at me square in the face and said (paraphrased) Lance, I’m not sure you were ever a Christian to begin with. It’s not ok. But I am not angry to the extent of revenge via press release.
Here are some thoughts to add some objectivity – and I can’t help to be a little subjective either – sorry, I’m not perfect.
My involvement in this piece was, from my intent, to 1) seek some form of checks and balance system with the many pastors at Mars Hill – perhaps a humble pastor will see it and reconsider his position. 2) Encourage those who are going through similar circumstances as I was encouraged by Andrew’s – don’t worry, in Pastor Mark’s own words “It’s all about Jesus” and not about what a zealous pastor says. 3) to inform the public – even as a member, community group leader, and intern at Mars Hill Church I didn’t think the extent to which my situation was taken was possible – power defends itself at any cost, and to maintain power it can never be wrong. That is what I saw from 2 pastors – guys, if God gives something to you (leadership, power, cancer) there is no man on earth that can take it away by force, you need not defend it.
Now to play pastors advocate
I absolutely did sin. I stepped down from community group leadership because I got drunk and slept with a brides maid at my buddies wedding back in 2010, I submitted to God’s authority reported my behavior to the leadership that was over me, repented of my sin and moved on. There were a couple of meetings with pastors that were great for me personally, and I learned a ton about God’s grace through it all.
Since I was a kid I have had an affinity for pornography, in the last 8 years I decided that it was turning me into a man that I did not want to be, 8 years later, I still have not been able to entirely stop watching porn on the internet. I have been through extensive counseling and have several other guys that help me to quit for good. And all of this is in the context of “repentance” I hid nothing from friends and pastors, and there was a loving relationship. The pastors said that this is the reason that I could not date and they wanted me to live in victory until such a point that they deemed I was safe.
Pastors are called to be ”shepherds of their flocks”, and as far as any organization goes, people need to listen to their bosses, soldiers need to follow orders, someone has to make a final decision. No one is perfect; you or me or anyone is capable of making a bad decision – and our decisions effect everyone.
What’s the hang up then? – at the time life was good, porn had not been an issue for an extended period of time, my now fiancé knew of my struggles as well as her father, and they were both helping me and encouraging me through it. There was no reason for the judgment given by the pastor (break up with your girlfriend) – it started as counsel, when I refused the advice, it turned into unrepentant sin.
So what’s the point lance?
My point is that if you draw parallels between you and any other person, be it the president or the pastor, or the people, and honestly take it into deep consideration. You will find that you are no different; it is highly likely that you would display the same behavior and probably already have with your kids, siblings, parents, bosses, subordinates, peers, and even yourself. If you don’t believe this, I know two guys that you would get along with really well, they may even make you a fellow pastor someday.
So what then? Are we all self-righteous ass holes? Well….. yes. If we could ever have been perfect Jesus would not have had to die to save us from sin and death. He does it by grace, through faith…
The point is Humility – you are not always right, even if you think your position demands you to be. Examples are –war over nonexistent WMD’s, the crusades, soldiers being ordered to their deaths on bad intel, the Stanly Milgram experiments! God gives grace to the humble, but to the proud …. Lots of bad things (read a bible).
To the men at Mars Hill – REPENT! take a step back, while the word cult is strong for where you are now, it is the direction you are headed in. friends, brothers, judgment is what God does – we are not God, we are not a spiritual elite that can speak for God (the majority of us any way) - if you had to remove people from a “flock” for un repentant sin, you would not have a congregation. Fore sure if there is a child molester, wife beater, homophobic people hater, porn ring leader, or exploiter extraordinaire you should do something about it. But remember, Jesus came to seek and save the lost, he died for our sins that ANYONE who would accept him would be saved from an eternity of separation from him. And finally, look at Jesus’ example of leadership that he gives to the disciples; his pyramid of power is inverted.
To the readers – no one is perfect, at whichever point you condemn a person, you condemn yourself at the same point. the same goes in our court of laws with legal precidents. God has grace for all who sin and repent - even for those who don’t right away (our court system does not) Mars Hill does lots of good in the community, they support local business, they recycle, they donate huge quantities of money to food banks and other charitable organizations, and over all the point of their message is love – you just have to get past the strong punch lines and watch an entire series.
To fellow Christians – just as you would anyone else, encourage Mars Hill towards repentance, it is Gods kindness and grace that leads men and women towards repentance. Not an Iron fist or slander, or libel, or gossip
To my friends at Mars Hill – you know who I am, I love and miss you all, if I could still be there I would – we don’t leave a family when things go bad, we fix things. I am banned from Mars Hill and not allowed back without repentance. The specific thing I am called to repent for is not a sin, therefore I cannot repent of it. Remember romans 2:17-29. I’m getting married, you are all invited, watch the mail.
Ok, let’s have some fun – I love comments! Mash it up everyone, I can take a beating.
More...
A comment on objectivity caught my eye, as I am a fan of the objective. As for bias – I agree, I do have bias, I am angry at the pastors who looked at me square in the face and said (paraphrased) Lance, I’m not sure you were ever a Christian to begin with. It’s not ok. But I am not angry to the extent of revenge via press release.
Here are some thoughts to add some objectivity – and I can’t help to be a little subjective either – sorry, I’m not perfect.
My involvement in this piece was, from my intent, to 1) seek some form of checks and balance system with the many pastors at Mars Hill – perhaps a humble pastor will see it and reconsider his position. 2) Encourage those who are going through similar circumstances as I was encouraged by Andrew’s – don’t worry, in Pastor Mark’s own words “It’s all about Jesus” and not about what a zealous pastor says. 3) to inform the public – even as a member, community group leader, and intern at Mars Hill Church I didn’t think the extent to which my situation was taken was possible – power defends itself at any cost, and to maintain power it can never be wrong. That is what I saw from 2 pastors – guys, if God gives something to you (leadership, power, cancer) there is no man on earth that can take it away by force, you need not defend it.
Now to play pastors advocate
I absolutely did sin. I stepped down from community group leadership because I got drunk and slept with a brides maid at my buddies wedding back in 2010, I submitted to God’s authority reported my behavior to the leadership that was over me, repented of my sin and moved on. There were a couple of meetings with pastors that were great for me personally, and I learned a ton about God’s grace through it all.
Since I was a kid I have had an affinity for pornography, in the last 8 years I decided that it was turning me into a man that I did not want to be, 8 years later, I still have not been able to entirely stop watching porn on the internet. I have been through extensive counseling and have several other guys that help me to quit for good. And all of this is in the context of “repentance” I hid nothing from friends and pastors, and there was a loving relationship. The pastors said that this is the reason that I could not date and they wanted me to live in victory until such a point that they deemed I was safe.
Pastors are called to be ”shepherds of their flocks”, and as far as any organization goes, people need to listen to their bosses, soldiers need to follow orders, someone has to make a final decision. No one is perfect; you or me or anyone is capable of making a bad decision – and our decisions effect everyone.
What’s the hang up then? – at the time life was good, porn had not been an issue for an extended period of time, my now fiancé knew of my struggles as well as her father, and they were both helping me and encouraging me through it. There was no reason for the judgment given by the pastor (break up with your girlfriend) – it started as counsel, when I refused the advice, it turned into unrepentant sin.
So what’s the point lance?
My point is that if you draw parallels between you and any other person, be it the president or the pastor, or the people, and honestly take it into deep consideration. You will find that you are no different; it is highly likely that you would display the same behavior and probably already have with your kids, siblings, parents, bosses, subordinates, peers, and even yourself. If you don’t believe this, I know two guys that you would get along with really well, they may even make you a fellow pastor someday.
So what then? Are we all self-righteous ass holes? Well….. yes. If we could ever have been perfect Jesus would not have had to die to save us from sin and death. He does it by grace, through faith…
The point is Humility – you are not always right, even if you think your position demands you to be. Examples are –war over nonexistent WMD’s, the crusades, soldiers being ordered to their deaths on bad intel, the Stanly Milgram experiments! God gives grace to the humble, but to the proud …. Lots of bad things (read a bible).
To the men at Mars Hill – REPENT! take a step back, while the word cult is strong for where you are now, it is the direction you are headed in. friends, brothers, judgment is what God does – we are not God, we are not a spiritual elite that can speak for God (the majority of us any way) - if you had to remove people from a “flock” for un repentant sin, you would not have a congregation. Fore sure if there is a child molester, wife beater, homophobic people hater, porn ring leader, or exploiter extraordinaire you should do something about it. But remember, Jesus came to seek and save the lost, he died for our sins that ANYONE who would accept him would be saved from an eternity of separation from him. And finally, look at Jesus’ example of leadership that he gives to the disciples; his pyramid of power is inverted.
To the readers – no one is perfect, at whichever point you condemn a person, you condemn yourself at the same point. the same goes in our court of laws with legal precidents. God has grace for all who sin and repent - even for those who don’t right away (our court system does not) Mars Hill does lots of good in the community, they support local business, they recycle, they donate huge quantities of money to food banks and other charitable organizations, and over all the point of their message is love – you just have to get past the strong punch lines and watch an entire series.
To fellow Christians – just as you would anyone else, encourage Mars Hill towards repentance, it is Gods kindness and grace that leads men and women towards repentance. Not an Iron fist or slander, or libel, or gossip
To my friends at Mars Hill – you know who I am, I love and miss you all, if I could still be there I would – we don’t leave a family when things go bad, we fix things. I am banned from Mars Hill and not allowed back without repentance. The specific thing I am called to repent for is not a sin, therefore I cannot repent of it. Remember romans 2:17-29. I’m getting married, you are all invited, watch the mail.
Ok, let’s have some fun – I love comments! Mash it up everyone, I can take a beating.
103
@Lance- MH
"I’m not sure you were ever a Christian to begin with."
I was never a big fan of the hyper-Calvanistic undertones in that church. If your God is a loving God why would he create beings solely for their destruction. Do we have free will or not? (what about Pharaoh and Judas and....)
"I’m not sure you were ever a Christian to begin with."
I was never a big fan of the hyper-Calvanistic undertones in that church. If your God is a loving God why would he create beings solely for their destruction. Do we have free will or not? (what about Pharaoh and Judas and....)
104
Two things.
Brendan, you are an amazing writer and thinker. I want you to write more features more often.
@51 is misinformed. There are power dynamics, this is true; there are unequal roles for women and men, children and adults, return missionaries and not, etc., this is true. However, what is untrue is a genuine comparison between "the [LDS] church" and Mars Hill in cultistic doctrinal and social regimes. While "the church" has unequal power distributions, the doctrine & application pale in comparison to MH.
Brendan, you are an amazing writer and thinker. I want you to write more features more often.
@51 is misinformed. There are power dynamics, this is true; there are unequal roles for women and men, children and adults, return missionaries and not, etc., this is true. However, what is untrue is a genuine comparison between "the [LDS] church" and Mars Hill in cultistic doctrinal and social regimes. While "the church" has unequal power distributions, the doctrine & application pale in comparison to MH.
105
Lance- i'm surprised they banned you without anyone wanting or expressing the desire to walk thru WITH you on your repentance...
Also- i love what you said about condemning "at whichever point you condemn a person, you condemn yourself at the same point."
SO what is this article doing? It's basically condemning Mars Hill Church as a whole. That means thousands and thousands of people are feeling the weight of this. No group of people wants to feel condemned like how this article is being played out. Yes, you bash the Mark Driscoll name, but what about the others who call this church 'home'? You say you have friends that go there, but it sounds like you've just threw them under the bus. Think about all the other types of organized groups. GLSEN, Jewish, Muslim, Mormons, Young Life, Red Cross, Peace Core. ALL have flaws, so may agree or disagree with their core beliefs and systems, and I bet you could find someone who's been hurt by their organization as well. Lance- i encourage you to address the issue again. You ask for them to be humble and respond and repent, if you give them a chance to do that, maybe they will. Get off your soap box and do something about it.
Also- i love what you said about condemning "at whichever point you condemn a person, you condemn yourself at the same point."
SO what is this article doing? It's basically condemning Mars Hill Church as a whole. That means thousands and thousands of people are feeling the weight of this. No group of people wants to feel condemned like how this article is being played out. Yes, you bash the Mark Driscoll name, but what about the others who call this church 'home'? You say you have friends that go there, but it sounds like you've just threw them under the bus. Think about all the other types of organized groups. GLSEN, Jewish, Muslim, Mormons, Young Life, Red Cross, Peace Core. ALL have flaws, so may agree or disagree with their core beliefs and systems, and I bet you could find someone who's been hurt by their organization as well. Lance- i encourage you to address the issue again. You ask for them to be humble and respond and repent, if you give them a chance to do that, maybe they will. Get off your soap box and do something about it.
106
I went to high school with Mark Driscoll. He was a pompous douchenozzle then and as I have seen, has grown in a metastisizing douche of ultimate christofascist douchebaggery.
Funny thing: Mark's older brother was a member of one of Seattle's greatest underrated bands of all time, the Purdins.
Funny thing: Mark's older brother was a member of one of Seattle's greatest underrated bands of all time, the Purdins.
107
@102 Lance-
I appreciate the invitation to your wedding but there is a problem - you are under church discipline and you have not repented for what you have done. I would like to get together, though, to talk about your situation in light of the gospel.
I agree with the elders' decision regarding you because I see how they are acting in accordance to the Scriptures. They love you and I love you. We pray the Lord would grant you repentance so we can be family once again....until then, we can't pretend nothing is wrong.
Sincerely-
Geraldo
I appreciate the invitation to your wedding but there is a problem - you are under church discipline and you have not repented for what you have done. I would like to get together, though, to talk about your situation in light of the gospel.
I agree with the elders' decision regarding you because I see how they are acting in accordance to the Scriptures. They love you and I love you. We pray the Lord would grant you repentance so we can be family once again....until then, we can't pretend nothing is wrong.
Sincerely-
Geraldo
108
"now i know what it feels like to be God...when HE'S holding a gun!" - Homer Simpson, holding his first gun.
110
The issue for me was that I did not sin. There is no sin in me not breaking up with a girlfriend because a pastor told me to. I saw them define what a sin was on their own terms. By that logic they could potentially say that not drinking poisoned coolaid was a sin.
The issue for me was not doing something that I didn't want to do. It was giving power to an abusive authority, if I agree to something small that I know is wrong, it will be easier to agree to a future bigger thing that is realy wrong.
Check out milgram's studies
The issue for me was not doing something that I didn't want to do. It was giving power to an abusive authority, if I agree to something small that I know is wrong, it will be easier to agree to a future bigger thing that is realy wrong.
Check out milgram's studies
111
This organization seems capable of heading into Catholic territory. In order to get God’s forgiveness, you must go through an intermediary. If a priest believes you’ve sinned, you owe him the apology and he can decide your punishment. I know they’re not extreme, but I can see some connections.
112
@ 104. Nothing you said proves that I am misinformed. The point of my comment was not to prove which doctrine "Pale's" in comparison with cultistic practices. It was strictly a warning that MH is heading into a similar path. The LDS church is well known for using clut like tactics to retain and discipline members and former members. If you're a member in good standing you dont see these tactics and will blindly defend the church because they already have you under control. Just like MH...
FACT: The LDS church indoctrinates children at a young age. 4 years old.
FACT: MH wants to indoctrinate children at 2 years old.
FACT: The LDS church holds the man above women and children, then clergy above them all.
FACT: MH does the same.
FACT: The LDS church holds a view of God that is similar to that of MH.
Therefore your statement about me being misinformed holds no water. Also, If any of the pastors of MH are on a tax free payroll (as if it's their day job) for the supposed "godly" work that they're doing (LDS clergy do not recieve pay) then that is another indication to stay away. Men of God are not supposed to be rich, drive bmw's or buy bling.
FACT: The LDS church indoctrinates children at a young age. 4 years old.
FACT: MH wants to indoctrinate children at 2 years old.
FACT: The LDS church holds the man above women and children, then clergy above them all.
FACT: MH does the same.
FACT: The LDS church holds a view of God that is similar to that of MH.
Therefore your statement about me being misinformed holds no water. Also, If any of the pastors of MH are on a tax free payroll (as if it's their day job) for the supposed "godly" work that they're doing (LDS clergy do not recieve pay) then that is another indication to stay away. Men of God are not supposed to be rich, drive bmw's or buy bling.
113
Wow.
I once made out with a girl who went to Mars Hill.
She wanted me to bang her, but I went down on her instead. She reciprocated with a hand job. I suspect she was a saddlebacker.
I know that place was fucked up, but this is a new level of insanity, like the original "drinking the cool-aid" gang. I feel for those members -I may not agree with them socially/religiously, but at least I respect them. I guess you can't say the same from MH "leadership".
I once made out with a girl who went to Mars Hill.
She wanted me to bang her, but I went down on her instead. She reciprocated with a hand job. I suspect she was a saddlebacker.
I know that place was fucked up, but this is a new level of insanity, like the original "drinking the cool-aid" gang. I feel for those members -I may not agree with them socially/religiously, but at least I respect them. I guess you can't say the same from MH "leadership".
114
" That cadre of children would grow up through the ranks, studying a children's version of Doctrine, along with DVD classes and Doctrine-related homework"
-------------
Sounds like a cult to me.....
-------------
Sounds like a cult to me.....
116
who the fuck gets into this stupid shit? i mean, this is like protestant right? a theology where basically the pope is not the medium between them and god. so then why would any other authority matter if you've already bucked the pope? and im being generous here because im atheist, but if you reject one all powerful medium then reject the rest and have your own relationship w god.
i feel like this is for the people that get into self-help and ex-junkies etc.
i feel like this is for the people that get into self-help and ex-junkies etc.
117
@103: I like this quote from Marcus Aurelius. It strikes me as a wonderful reversal on that predestination idea.
@102: They really did a number on you regarding masturbation. The issue you're being "counseled" on (eye roll) sounds more like masturbation, not porn consumption; that's just an aid for the masturbation. Porn is not an inherently destructive force on society. If so, Japan (as an obvious example) would have torn itself apart centuries ago. The religious fundies in this country and around the world merely stage it as a societal illness to reframe the argument, when it's all really about guilting you into submitting yourself to their authority (and, ultimately, their control). As someone who has received so much backlash over a single drunken hookup, I'm amazed that you can't see the value in masturbation as a harmless release for sexual tension that might otherwise lead to more disastrous consequences.
And... "porn ring leader?" Seriously? Is that what you call the head of a porn production company? I guess you could, but then I reserve the right to refer to a priest/pastor/whatever as an "exploiter extraordinaire."
@102: They really did a number on you regarding masturbation. The issue you're being "counseled" on (eye roll) sounds more like masturbation, not porn consumption; that's just an aid for the masturbation. Porn is not an inherently destructive force on society. If so, Japan (as an obvious example) would have torn itself apart centuries ago. The religious fundies in this country and around the world merely stage it as a societal illness to reframe the argument, when it's all really about guilting you into submitting yourself to their authority (and, ultimately, their control). As someone who has received so much backlash over a single drunken hookup, I'm amazed that you can't see the value in masturbation as a harmless release for sexual tension that might otherwise lead to more disastrous consequences.
And... "porn ring leader?" Seriously? Is that what you call the head of a porn production company? I guess you could, but then I reserve the right to refer to a priest/pastor/whatever as an "exploiter extraordinaire."
118
So much of this article reminds me of the non-alien stuff I've read about Scientology: the behavioral contracts, the personal lives being subjected to church oversight, the banishment/harrassment combo served up to former members, etc. And then there are the multiple near-identical comments from the MH church members here. The extreme control over members' lives coupled with the lock-step groupthink demonstrated here does give the church the appearance of a cult.
119
All these bland platitudes about providing 'balance' from a bunch of brainwashed cultists. Has it not occurred to free thinkers that you have a forum, right here, to provide that 'balance'? Fire away, give us examples contradicting ANYTHING in this piece.
I'll give you a few minutes so you can ask that raging closet case you call a leader what to say now.
I'll give you a few minutes so you can ask that raging closet case you call a leader what to say now.
120
I'd say 5 years ago I'd be fist-pumping with this article and say "Yeah! You get that cult!" It would've helped me belive what I already belived by sharing a sentiment With people who have had bad experiences with religion and Christians, or atleast as perceived in the news or on TV.
However, I started questioning this Jesus character and it really itched me that he himself said, as recorded in what some call a historical document,, "I am God. You have refused to belive it all your life. but I'm going to die in your place so you dont get the punishment you rightfully deserve for not loving the thing who made you and loves you more than you'll ever understand."
I went to an acts 29 church, ready to object. I got invited out for coffee by a member. We talked. He was extremely polite, expressed his beliefs, and listened to mine. And then he politely asked me to see where my ideas didn't match up with what Jesus said. The guy said--you eventually have to make a decision. Either Jesus was who he said he was, or he wasn't. How do you know if he is or not? And Is it a question worth asking?
This acts 29 church fellow had me and my girlfriend over for dinner with his wife. They cooked for us. Took care of us. They showed us who Jesus was and is. And if they truly belived he was God, why wouldn't they tell me? If Jesus was God and I didn't belive it, there was a chance for consequence. Isn't it better to put yourself out for criticism and tell a friend they may be wrong about something that could jeopardize their well-being?
I lead and serve in an acts 29 church now and belive Jesus, the historical figure who did exist was who he said he was. My church is not perfect. Only God is, and with His help we try and stick to his example and serve people like Jesus did, who "came not to be served, but to serve."
Go to Mars Hill or any other church that tries hard to stick to what Jesus said. Meet someone. Find out for yourself if they are as bad as this adticle says they are. Invite them to coffee. Be bold and figure out if this Jesus guy is who he said he is or not. If not, not a whole lot will change. If so, everything will change, and I think you will be glad for it.
More...
However, I started questioning this Jesus character and it really itched me that he himself said, as recorded in what some call a historical document,, "I am God. You have refused to belive it all your life. but I'm going to die in your place so you dont get the punishment you rightfully deserve for not loving the thing who made you and loves you more than you'll ever understand."
I went to an acts 29 church, ready to object. I got invited out for coffee by a member. We talked. He was extremely polite, expressed his beliefs, and listened to mine. And then he politely asked me to see where my ideas didn't match up with what Jesus said. The guy said--you eventually have to make a decision. Either Jesus was who he said he was, or he wasn't. How do you know if he is or not? And Is it a question worth asking?
This acts 29 church fellow had me and my girlfriend over for dinner with his wife. They cooked for us. Took care of us. They showed us who Jesus was and is. And if they truly belived he was God, why wouldn't they tell me? If Jesus was God and I didn't belive it, there was a chance for consequence. Isn't it better to put yourself out for criticism and tell a friend they may be wrong about something that could jeopardize their well-being?
I lead and serve in an acts 29 church now and belive Jesus, the historical figure who did exist was who he said he was. My church is not perfect. Only God is, and with His help we try and stick to his example and serve people like Jesus did, who "came not to be served, but to serve."
Go to Mars Hill or any other church that tries hard to stick to what Jesus said. Meet someone. Find out for yourself if they are as bad as this adticle says they are. Invite them to coffee. Be bold and figure out if this Jesus guy is who he said he is or not. If not, not a whole lot will change. If so, everything will change, and I think you will be glad for it.
121
@120: So you're saying you're willing to believe something because someone bought you coffee and made you dinner? In six paragraphs, that's the only reason you offered to explain what persuaded you to change your mind 5 years ago.
122
@102
If you just would have listened to pastor Mark's recommendations, bro, this wouldn't have gone down this way:
"Be assured that you can be cured of your difficulty. Many have been, both male and female, and you can be also if you determine that it must be so.
This determination is the first step. That is where we begin. You must decide that you will end this practice, and when you make that decision, the problem will be greatly reduced at once.
But it must be more than a hope or a wish, more than knowing that it is good for you. It must be actually a DECISION. If you truly make up your mind that you will be cured, then you will have the strength to resist any tendencies which you may have and any temptations which may come to you.
After you have made this decision, then observe the following specific guidelines:
A Guide to Self-Control:
1. Never touch the intimate parts of your body except during normal toilet processes.
2. Avoid being alone as much as possible. Find good company and stay in this good company.
3. If you are associated with other persons having this same problem, YOU MUST BREAK OFF THEIR FRIENDSHIP. Never associate with other people having the same weakness. Don't suppose that two of you will quit together, you never will. You must get away from people of that kind. Just to be in their presence will keep your problem foremost in your mind. The problem must be taken OUT OF YOUR MIND for that is where it really exists. Your mind must be on other and more wholesome things.
4. When you bathe, do not admire yourself in a mirror. Never stay in the bath more than five or six minutes -- just long enough to bathe and dry and dress AND THEN GET OUT OF THE BATHROOM into a room where you will have some member of your family present.
5. When in bed, if that is where you have your problem for the most part, dress yourself for the night so securely that you cannot easily touch your vital parts, and so that it would be difficult and time consuming for you to remove those clothes. By the time you started to remove protective clothing you would have sufficiently controlled your thinking that the temptation would leave you.
6. If the temptation seems overpowering while you are in bed, GET OUT OF BED AND GO INTO THE KITCHEN AND FIX YOURSELF A SNACK, even if it is in the middle of the night, and even if you are not hungry, and despite your fears of gaining weight. The purpose behind this suggestion is that you GET YOUR MIND ON SOMETHING ELSE. You are the subject of your thoughts, so to speak.
7. Never read pornographic material. Never read about your problem. Keep it out of mind. Remember -- "First a thought, then an act."
The thought pattern must be changed. You must not allow this problem to remain in your mind. When you accomplish that, you soon will be free of the act.
8. Put wholesome thoughts into your mind at all times. Read good books --Church books -- Scriptures -- Sermons of the Brethern. Make a daily habit of reading at least one chapter of Scripture, preferably from one of the four Gospels in the New Testament, or a Richard Simmons book. The four Gospels -- Matthew, Mark, Luke and John -- above anything else in the Bible can be helpful because of their uplifting qualities.
9. Pray. But when you pray, don't pray about this problem, for that will tend to keep [it] in your mind more than ever. Pray for faith, pray for understanding of the Scriptures, pray for the Missionaries, the General Authorities, your friends, your families, BUT KEEP THE PROBLEM OUT OF YOUR MIND BY NOT MENTIONING IT EVER -- NOT IN CONVERSATION WITH OTHERS, NOT IN YOUR PRAYERS. KEEP IT _OUT_ of your mind! The attitude of a person toward his problem has an affect on how easy it is to overcome. It is essential that a firm commitment be made to control the habit. As a person understands his reasons for the behavior, and is sensitive to the conditions or situations that may trigger a desire for the act, he develops the power to control it.
As one meets with his Priesthood Leader, a program for overcoming masturbation can be implemented using some of these suggestions. Remember it is essential that a regular report program be agreed on, so progress can be recognized and failures understood and eliminated.
Suggestions:
1. Pray daily, ask for the gifts of the Spirit, that which will strengthen you against temptation. Pray fervently and out loud when the temptations are the strongest.
2. Follow a program of vigorous daily exercise. The exercises reduce emotional tension and depression and are absolutely basic to the solution of this problem. Double your physical activity when you feel stress increasing.
3. When the temptation to masturbate is strong, yell STOP to those thoughts as loudly as you can in your mind and then recite a prechosen Scripture or sing an inspirational hymn. It is important to turn your thoughts away from the selfish need to indulge.
4. Set goals of abstinence, begin with a day, then a week,month, year and finally commit to never doing it again. Until you commit yourself to never again you will always be open to temptation.
5. Change in behavior and attitude is most easily achieved through a changed self-image. Spend time every day imagining yourself strong and in control, easily overcoming tempting situations.
6. Begin to work daily on a self-improvement program. Relate this plan to improving your Church service, to improving your relationships with your family, God and others. Strive to enhance your strengths and talents.
7. Be outgoing and friendly. Force yourself to be with others and learn to enjoy working and talking to them. Use principles of developing friendships found in books such as How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.
8. Be aware of situations that depress you or that cause you to feel lonely, bored, frustrated or discouraged. These emotional states can trigger the desire to masturbate as a way of escape. Plan in advance to counter these low periods through various activities, such as reading a book, visiting a friend, doing something athletic, etc.
9. Make a pocket calendar for a month on a small card. Carry it with you, but show it to no one. If you have a lapse of self control, color the day black. Your goal will be to have no black days. The calendar becomes a strong visual reminder of self control and should be looked at when you are tempted to add another black day. Keep your calendar up until you have at least three clear months.
10. A careful study will indicate you have had the problem at certain times and under certain conditions. Try and recall, in detail, what your particular times and conditions were. Now that you understand how it happens, plan to break the pattern through counter activities.
11. In the field of psychotherapy there is a very effective technique called aversion therapy. When we associate or think of something very distasteful with something which has been pleasurable, but undesirable, the distasteful thought and feeling will begin to cancel out that which was pleasurable. If you associate something very distasteful with your loss of self-control it will help you to stop the act. For example, if you are tempted to masturbate, think of having to bathe in a tub of worms, and eat several of them as you do the act.
12. During your toileting and shower activities leave the bathroom door or shower curtain partly open, to discourage being alone in total privacy. Take cool brief showers.
13. Arise immediately in the mornings. Do not lie in bed awake, no matter what time of day it is. Get up and do something. Start each day with an enthusiastic activity.
14. Keep your bladder empty. Refrain from drinking large amounts of fluids before retiring.
15. Reduce the amount of spices and condiments in your food. Eat as lightly as possible at night.
16. Wear pajamas that are difficult to open, yet loose and not binding.
17. Avoid people, situations, pictures or reading materials that might create sexual excitement.
18. It is sometimes helpful to have a physical object to use in overcoming this problem. A Book of Mormon,firmly held in hand, even in bed at night has proven helpful in extreme cases.
19. In very severe cases it may be necessary to tie a hand to the bed frame with a tie in order that the habit of masturbating in a semi-sleep condition can be broken. This can also be accomplished by wearing several layers of clothing which would be difficult to remove while half asleep.
20. Set up a reward system for your successes. It does not have to be a big reward. A quarter in a receptacle each time you overcome or reach a goal. Spend it on something which delights you and will be a continuing reminder of your progress.
21. Do not let yourself return to any past habit or attitude patterns which were part of your problem. Satan Never Gives Up. Be calmly and confidently on guard. Keep a positive mental attitude. You can win this fight! The joy and strength you will feel when you do will give your whole life a radiant and spiritual glow of satisfaction and fulfillment.
More...
If you just would have listened to pastor Mark's recommendations, bro, this wouldn't have gone down this way:
"Be assured that you can be cured of your difficulty. Many have been, both male and female, and you can be also if you determine that it must be so.
This determination is the first step. That is where we begin. You must decide that you will end this practice, and when you make that decision, the problem will be greatly reduced at once.
But it must be more than a hope or a wish, more than knowing that it is good for you. It must be actually a DECISION. If you truly make up your mind that you will be cured, then you will have the strength to resist any tendencies which you may have and any temptations which may come to you.
After you have made this decision, then observe the following specific guidelines:
A Guide to Self-Control:
1. Never touch the intimate parts of your body except during normal toilet processes.
2. Avoid being alone as much as possible. Find good company and stay in this good company.
3. If you are associated with other persons having this same problem, YOU MUST BREAK OFF THEIR FRIENDSHIP. Never associate with other people having the same weakness. Don't suppose that two of you will quit together, you never will. You must get away from people of that kind. Just to be in their presence will keep your problem foremost in your mind. The problem must be taken OUT OF YOUR MIND for that is where it really exists. Your mind must be on other and more wholesome things.
4. When you bathe, do not admire yourself in a mirror. Never stay in the bath more than five or six minutes -- just long enough to bathe and dry and dress AND THEN GET OUT OF THE BATHROOM into a room where you will have some member of your family present.
5. When in bed, if that is where you have your problem for the most part, dress yourself for the night so securely that you cannot easily touch your vital parts, and so that it would be difficult and time consuming for you to remove those clothes. By the time you started to remove protective clothing you would have sufficiently controlled your thinking that the temptation would leave you.
6. If the temptation seems overpowering while you are in bed, GET OUT OF BED AND GO INTO THE KITCHEN AND FIX YOURSELF A SNACK, even if it is in the middle of the night, and even if you are not hungry, and despite your fears of gaining weight. The purpose behind this suggestion is that you GET YOUR MIND ON SOMETHING ELSE. You are the subject of your thoughts, so to speak.
7. Never read pornographic material. Never read about your problem. Keep it out of mind. Remember -- "First a thought, then an act."
The thought pattern must be changed. You must not allow this problem to remain in your mind. When you accomplish that, you soon will be free of the act.
8. Put wholesome thoughts into your mind at all times. Read good books --Church books -- Scriptures -- Sermons of the Brethern. Make a daily habit of reading at least one chapter of Scripture, preferably from one of the four Gospels in the New Testament, or a Richard Simmons book. The four Gospels -- Matthew, Mark, Luke and John -- above anything else in the Bible can be helpful because of their uplifting qualities.
9. Pray. But when you pray, don't pray about this problem, for that will tend to keep [it] in your mind more than ever. Pray for faith, pray for understanding of the Scriptures, pray for the Missionaries, the General Authorities, your friends, your families, BUT KEEP THE PROBLEM OUT OF YOUR MIND BY NOT MENTIONING IT EVER -- NOT IN CONVERSATION WITH OTHERS, NOT IN YOUR PRAYERS. KEEP IT _OUT_ of your mind! The attitude of a person toward his problem has an affect on how easy it is to overcome. It is essential that a firm commitment be made to control the habit. As a person understands his reasons for the behavior, and is sensitive to the conditions or situations that may trigger a desire for the act, he develops the power to control it.
As one meets with his Priesthood Leader, a program for overcoming masturbation can be implemented using some of these suggestions. Remember it is essential that a regular report program be agreed on, so progress can be recognized and failures understood and eliminated.
Suggestions:
1. Pray daily, ask for the gifts of the Spirit, that which will strengthen you against temptation. Pray fervently and out loud when the temptations are the strongest.
2. Follow a program of vigorous daily exercise. The exercises reduce emotional tension and depression and are absolutely basic to the solution of this problem. Double your physical activity when you feel stress increasing.
3. When the temptation to masturbate is strong, yell STOP to those thoughts as loudly as you can in your mind and then recite a prechosen Scripture or sing an inspirational hymn. It is important to turn your thoughts away from the selfish need to indulge.
4. Set goals of abstinence, begin with a day, then a week,month, year and finally commit to never doing it again. Until you commit yourself to never again you will always be open to temptation.
5. Change in behavior and attitude is most easily achieved through a changed self-image. Spend time every day imagining yourself strong and in control, easily overcoming tempting situations.
6. Begin to work daily on a self-improvement program. Relate this plan to improving your Church service, to improving your relationships with your family, God and others. Strive to enhance your strengths and talents.
7. Be outgoing and friendly. Force yourself to be with others and learn to enjoy working and talking to them. Use principles of developing friendships found in books such as How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.
8. Be aware of situations that depress you or that cause you to feel lonely, bored, frustrated or discouraged. These emotional states can trigger the desire to masturbate as a way of escape. Plan in advance to counter these low periods through various activities, such as reading a book, visiting a friend, doing something athletic, etc.
9. Make a pocket calendar for a month on a small card. Carry it with you, but show it to no one. If you have a lapse of self control, color the day black. Your goal will be to have no black days. The calendar becomes a strong visual reminder of self control and should be looked at when you are tempted to add another black day. Keep your calendar up until you have at least three clear months.
10. A careful study will indicate you have had the problem at certain times and under certain conditions. Try and recall, in detail, what your particular times and conditions were. Now that you understand how it happens, plan to break the pattern through counter activities.
11. In the field of psychotherapy there is a very effective technique called aversion therapy. When we associate or think of something very distasteful with something which has been pleasurable, but undesirable, the distasteful thought and feeling will begin to cancel out that which was pleasurable. If you associate something very distasteful with your loss of self-control it will help you to stop the act. For example, if you are tempted to masturbate, think of having to bathe in a tub of worms, and eat several of them as you do the act.
12. During your toileting and shower activities leave the bathroom door or shower curtain partly open, to discourage being alone in total privacy. Take cool brief showers.
13. Arise immediately in the mornings. Do not lie in bed awake, no matter what time of day it is. Get up and do something. Start each day with an enthusiastic activity.
14. Keep your bladder empty. Refrain from drinking large amounts of fluids before retiring.
15. Reduce the amount of spices and condiments in your food. Eat as lightly as possible at night.
16. Wear pajamas that are difficult to open, yet loose and not binding.
17. Avoid people, situations, pictures or reading materials that might create sexual excitement.
18. It is sometimes helpful to have a physical object to use in overcoming this problem. A Book of Mormon,firmly held in hand, even in bed at night has proven helpful in extreme cases.
19. In very severe cases it may be necessary to tie a hand to the bed frame with a tie in order that the habit of masturbating in a semi-sleep condition can be broken. This can also be accomplished by wearing several layers of clothing which would be difficult to remove while half asleep.
20. Set up a reward system for your successes. It does not have to be a big reward. A quarter in a receptacle each time you overcome or reach a goal. Spend it on something which delights you and will be a continuing reminder of your progress.
21. Do not let yourself return to any past habit or attitude patterns which were part of your problem. Satan Never Gives Up. Be calmly and confidently on guard. Keep a positive mental attitude. You can win this fight! The joy and strength you will feel when you do will give your whole life a radiant and spiritual glow of satisfaction and fulfillment.
124
@122
You're so clearly missing the point here and your language reinvigorates the worries many of us have of an authoritarian cult taking root in our back yards. Look what you wrote. Look how you start:
"If you just would have listened to pastor Mark's recommendations..."
Therein lies your danger and non-agency. This isn't about masturbation or porn or kissing or sleeping in too late or swearing. This is about power and control.
The problem is how the power within the church's authoritarian structure is obtained, maintained, employed, and abused. It's in the unquestioning obedience that is demanded without justification other than power.
If you're in it as deep as you seem, you probably can't see the dysfunctional dynamic that you're a naive part of.
You're so clearly missing the point here and your language reinvigorates the worries many of us have of an authoritarian cult taking root in our back yards. Look what you wrote. Look how you start:
"If you just would have listened to pastor Mark's recommendations..."
Therein lies your danger and non-agency. This isn't about masturbation or porn or kissing or sleeping in too late or swearing. This is about power and control.
The problem is how the power within the church's authoritarian structure is obtained, maintained, employed, and abused. It's in the unquestioning obedience that is demanded without justification other than power.
If you're in it as deep as you seem, you probably can't see the dysfunctional dynamic that you're a naive part of.
126
The thing that strikes me most about Mars Hill is that it was created & is led by one of the strangest of the evanglical preachers. I mean, in terms of his outsized ego, his bizarre pronouncements - about women, gays, masturbation?!? etc etc - he fits right in with the batshitiest of the wingnuts, including Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Robert Schuller & on & on.
I think the best analogy is Ted Haggard ...a closeted gay homophobe, hiding behind a wife & bunch of kids (oh, they'll never suspect i'm gay!) who spews hatred in the guise of biblical wisdom. No straight man who is secure in his own sexuality feels the need to continually expend such negative energy toward gays. Time after time these extreme homophobes have been exposed for what they are.
'Mark' my words, one of these days we'll hear from a young guy who attended a Mars Hill 'male bonding' event, and who was propositioned by Mark Driscoll. In the meantime, would-be new-age religious hipsters continue to drink in the poison spewed by this weird charlatan.
I think the best analogy is Ted Haggard ...a closeted gay homophobe, hiding behind a wife & bunch of kids (oh, they'll never suspect i'm gay!) who spews hatred in the guise of biblical wisdom. No straight man who is secure in his own sexuality feels the need to continually expend such negative energy toward gays. Time after time these extreme homophobes have been exposed for what they are.
'Mark' my words, one of these days we'll hear from a young guy who attended a Mars Hill 'male bonding' event, and who was propositioned by Mark Driscoll. In the meantime, would-be new-age religious hipsters continue to drink in the poison spewed by this weird charlatan.
129
Everything about this is unbelievable and sad. Your future father in law knows about your porn & masterbation?! There is something wrong with either of those? You got drunk and had sex? God Damn you're going straight to hell. Any person, group or doctrine that demands shame on you for things consenting adults do together- even if they are a mistake (that you likely learned your Own lesson from) is abusive and wrong... I'd like to acknowledge the other MH posters and supporters in this post, forgiving that they are likely products of the red counties we support, but ignore like step children, and remind readers of the study linked earlier this week regarding IQ, religion and social conservatism. If I prayed, it'd be for you, brother.
130
Way back when I was in college we had an offshoot of the Boston Church of Christ running around that was using some of the identical tactics -- appeals to discipline, pressure, shunning -- under the name of "discipling." In fact, the story above sounded so similar I did a double-take.
I've been a member of several churches over the years, some of which people are familiar with for being "conservative" or "evangelical" or "EEVL EEVL HOMOPHOBES." At no point in any of these churches was there ever, ever anything like what happened above (or what I saw with the Church of Christ). No demands for authority over others, no 300-point plans for redemption, no shunning. And even in Reformed churches you never see this.
It's the Appeal To Authority that's all screwed up here. There's a lot of emphasis on Men being Lord Of The Household. There's a lot of emphasis on Pastors being Lord Of The Flock. There doesn't seem to be much on Jesus being Lord Of All. If anything, Jesus is being used as an excuse to bully and browbeat people into submission.
This isn't a healthy environment. This is sounding awfully cult-like. I really doubt Mark Driscoll has a rentboy or a bag of coke, but he drives on power -- absolute power -- and his hangers-on in leadership feed on weakness to stay in his good graces. And dictators, ultimately, fall the moment they prove to be weak. God have mercy on the flock then, because the rending of a 10K person church will be one miserable sight to behold.
I've been a member of several churches over the years, some of which people are familiar with for being "conservative" or "evangelical" or "EEVL EEVL HOMOPHOBES." At no point in any of these churches was there ever, ever anything like what happened above (or what I saw with the Church of Christ). No demands for authority over others, no 300-point plans for redemption, no shunning. And even in Reformed churches you never see this.
It's the Appeal To Authority that's all screwed up here. There's a lot of emphasis on Men being Lord Of The Household. There's a lot of emphasis on Pastors being Lord Of The Flock. There doesn't seem to be much on Jesus being Lord Of All. If anything, Jesus is being used as an excuse to bully and browbeat people into submission.
This isn't a healthy environment. This is sounding awfully cult-like. I really doubt Mark Driscoll has a rentboy or a bag of coke, but he drives on power -- absolute power -- and his hangers-on in leadership feed on weakness to stay in his good graces. And dictators, ultimately, fall the moment they prove to be weak. God have mercy on the flock then, because the rending of a 10K person church will be one miserable sight to behold.
131
rule 22... Die of humiliation. you know the most effective thing that has helped so far? just moving on. I spend more time doing the things that I should be doing, and less time worrying about the things I don't want to do. I could have a masters degree with the time, effort, and money I have spent focusing on trying to stop. speaking of which, thats probably the field of work I'm going to get into - helping people without making them feel like crap.
by the way, covanent eyes is an awesome web filter program, microsoft has a free one for those who perfer more control over their filter, but covanent is the easiest.
by the way, covanent eyes is an awesome web filter program, microsoft has a free one for those who perfer more control over their filter, but covanent is the easiest.
133
Mars Hill People.. tell me, with all the truth that Jesus tells you to speak, that you would want your deepest darkest secrets spilled for all the congregation to know. Suppose "Andrew" did do those things with the women. I work with a mentally ill population that goes to church, and "inappropriate" and "women" is like our Sunday litany. The pastors contact us, tell us what's going down, and outline what the "rules" will be, which have sometimes included a person not being able to go to service unchaperoned. Only people in the congregation who "need to know" are told about what is going on. The entire congregation continues to welcome these members with open arms, and treat them like brothers in Christ. They don't make treatment plans; that's MY job, and I can't imagine how you think shaming is going to make someone change.
Tell me, truthfully, that you have NOTHING to hide, nothing at all, and you would love for the church to come in and "audit" your life.
Tell me, truthfully, that you have NOTHING to hide, nothing at all, and you would love for the church to come in and "audit" your life.
134
Hello American people, I am a foreign tourist traveling the west coast and I casually read this article and followed by reading the comments here in. I will not say which country I come from but I will say I am from Europe. This article and subject I find interesting because you have so many religious leaders in your culture. It is truly amazing how many of these people are self appointed. It seems that one merely declares I CAN HEAR GOD IS SPEAKING INSIDE MY HEAD and this is all the qualification a person needs TO have THE greatest influence over the lives of many American citizens. What is more amazing is how careful your choosing of a political leader as we see underway in the republican debates. These men who want to be your president are so carefully and thoroughly examined by the public it is truly an incredible site to behold. One mistake from these political candidates and he/she is disqualified forever ! Why do you not apply the same principles to your religious leaders ?? Can you imagine them standing on a stage forced to debate and answer questions from a real public audience ?? hahaha, Surely they would have to be divine anointed to endure such pressure. Yet, when they are in your pulpits they are infallible experts on every subject. This MHC is another example of how you Americans seem to forget your own constitution and what is written in very first amendment bill of rights. This pastor has absolutely no authority over you or anyone attending his church except the authority you give him. He cannot command you in any way, shape or form. And he cannot bestow heaven upon you. If he could he would be the most famous man in the world and every president and prime minister would seek him. When you cross the door to his church you do so voluntarily and you can leave voluntarily any time you wish. All his threats and curses on you are hollow bluffs designed to frighten you like a small child. Religion only works when everyone in the room is religious. Americans, you can be more mature.
More...
136
That's interesting, because I've heard stories of people who were disciplined/booted out of other churches that then showed up at Mars Hill and became leaders instantly.
137
I've went to 6 churches in my life as a regular-attending member. 3 of them were either exactly like this or on the fast track to becoming like it. This never questioning the authority crap is exactly what gets churches in this weird cultish behavior in the first place. It's a quench for power that is never satiated.
Something that I find interesting is that most conservative Christians are so full intent on making sure that the government doesn't control them, which is well and fine. But they can't even see it their own church leaders do it in the name of Christ.
Something that I find interesting is that most conservative Christians are so full intent on making sure that the government doesn't control them, which is well and fine. But they can't even see it their own church leaders do it in the name of Christ.
138
About 5 years ago or so an ex-girlfriend decided to start attending Mars Hill with the intention of eventually writing a book about the attraction of mega churches to people in their twenties, a generation considered to be faithless overall. We were both avowed non-believers but were fascinated by those who did believe. We attended the weekly services in Ballard, joined their new weekly bible study group which was being held at the church, and even became friends with one of the pastors and went to his house for dinner with his young family. The further we dug into the church the more creepy things came to light. After a shitty breakup the book fell to the wayside and was swept away with the other detritus of our failed relationship. I'm glad someone has finally had the balls to tell the public about their creepy controlling ways. We were told that if we became members of the church (something we had no intention of doing) we would have to declare our intentions to marry within six months or be forced to separate. Good job Stranger and thanks to Andrew and Lance for their courage.
140
Mark Driscoll is a business man, plain and simple. He's packaged up some conservative ideas (mainly coming from the New Testament, which ironically is now under the scrutiny of some biblical scholars http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/13…) and has sold them to Seattle hipsters. As with any other commodity, you decide if you wanna buy it. And as with business, where you were once a customer, they will try to earn back your business. Ultimately, you decide what you do and don't buy AND how you feel about the transaction.
141
Paul’s First Letter to the Corinthians states
2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I didn’t come with excellence of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you, except Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 2:3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 2:4 My speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 2:5 that your faith wouldn’t stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Unpopular as it may be to start an opinion with scripture from a book that most of our city does not put stock in, here, for your viewing pleasure, is one of the many scriptures that I hope might throw some caution to the members of Mars Hill Church.
Mr. Kiley’s article has been rumbling around in my belly for days. All of the expected outrage of a former Christian turned progressive liberal had to quell before I could begin to identify the true nature of my anger. Thus identified, my anger stems from this: New Testament Christianity, at its core, is a celebration of the empowered, individual pursuit of Christ and his teachings enabled through Christ’s chosen sacrifice, a celebration that requires no totalitarian middle man making declarative statements and writing oppressive doctrine and curriculum.
Reading the disturbing accounts of the gross misuse of “church authority” exerted on its members provided by the former members of Driscoll’s church forced to my mind a simple question. What about free will? If they are, as claimed, a bible-believing congregation, then why must they be so heavily guarded from the people they are supposed to be proselytizing? Why must they be coddled with doctrine-specific curriculum and ecclesiastically binding membership contracts? Mr. Driscoll, don’t you trust your flock to hear the voice of God themselves? Or was the curtain in the temple, rent at Christ’s death, only the introduction of the Holy Spirit for you alone? I believe that Joseph Smith has already walked this dangerous road; the Mormon religion is still trying to reform past the blind submission it gave Smith and Brigham Young on the celestial marriage issue.
Every morning, I pass the homeless tent city sponsored by the folks at SPU. Here, the students and faculty at that college are able to decide, of their own accord, to follow Christ’s teachings and serve their fellow man. And they do—from what I understand it is an incredibly successful project that protects many souls from our chilled Seattle winter nights. How different is this then from the “Mars Hill house” Lance lived and worked tirelessly, separated from anyone not of the church, his work going for the good of the church but for no one outside of it?
To the members of this church: Be empowered. You have a powerful set of teachings that have the ability to enable great good in the world. This man Driscoll is telling you not to think for yourselves, not to engage thoughtfully with the very words that you believe Christ died to make true for you. Driscoll wants you to hear him, and only him, as his Sunday big-screen broadcasts to all of his satellite churches make perfectly clear. But Paul tells you, and the Corinthians, this, “4:8 You are already filled. You have already become rich. You have come to reign without us.” You, in your beliefs, have a direct line to Christ. Don’t let Driscoll convince you of the need to continue buying his priestly indulgences.
More...
2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I didn’t come with excellence of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you, except Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 2:3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 2:4 My speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 2:5 that your faith wouldn’t stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Unpopular as it may be to start an opinion with scripture from a book that most of our city does not put stock in, here, for your viewing pleasure, is one of the many scriptures that I hope might throw some caution to the members of Mars Hill Church.
Mr. Kiley’s article has been rumbling around in my belly for days. All of the expected outrage of a former Christian turned progressive liberal had to quell before I could begin to identify the true nature of my anger. Thus identified, my anger stems from this: New Testament Christianity, at its core, is a celebration of the empowered, individual pursuit of Christ and his teachings enabled through Christ’s chosen sacrifice, a celebration that requires no totalitarian middle man making declarative statements and writing oppressive doctrine and curriculum.
Reading the disturbing accounts of the gross misuse of “church authority” exerted on its members provided by the former members of Driscoll’s church forced to my mind a simple question. What about free will? If they are, as claimed, a bible-believing congregation, then why must they be so heavily guarded from the people they are supposed to be proselytizing? Why must they be coddled with doctrine-specific curriculum and ecclesiastically binding membership contracts? Mr. Driscoll, don’t you trust your flock to hear the voice of God themselves? Or was the curtain in the temple, rent at Christ’s death, only the introduction of the Holy Spirit for you alone? I believe that Joseph Smith has already walked this dangerous road; the Mormon religion is still trying to reform past the blind submission it gave Smith and Brigham Young on the celestial marriage issue.
Every morning, I pass the homeless tent city sponsored by the folks at SPU. Here, the students and faculty at that college are able to decide, of their own accord, to follow Christ’s teachings and serve their fellow man. And they do—from what I understand it is an incredibly successful project that protects many souls from our chilled Seattle winter nights. How different is this then from the “Mars Hill house” Lance lived and worked tirelessly, separated from anyone not of the church, his work going for the good of the church but for no one outside of it?
To the members of this church: Be empowered. You have a powerful set of teachings that have the ability to enable great good in the world. This man Driscoll is telling you not to think for yourselves, not to engage thoughtfully with the very words that you believe Christ died to make true for you. Driscoll wants you to hear him, and only him, as his Sunday big-screen broadcasts to all of his satellite churches make perfectly clear. But Paul tells you, and the Corinthians, this, “4:8 You are already filled. You have already become rich. You have come to reign without us.” You, in your beliefs, have a direct line to Christ. Don’t let Driscoll convince you of the need to continue buying his priestly indulgences.
142
Paul’s First Letter to the Corinthians states
2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I didn’t come with excellence of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you, except Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 2:3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 2:4 My speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 2:5 that your faith wouldn’t stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Unpopular as it may be to start an opinion with scripture from a book that most of our city does not put stock in, here, for your viewing pleasure, is one of the many scriptures that I hope might throw some caution to the members of Mars Hill Church.
Mr. Kiley’s article has been rumbling around in my belly for days. All of the expected outrage of a former Christian turned progressive liberal had to quell before I could begin to identify the true nature of my anger. Thus identified, my anger stems from this: New Testament Christianity, at its core, is a celebration of the empowered, individual pursuit of Christ and his teachings enabled through Christ’s chosen sacrifice, a celebration that requires no totalitarian middle man making declarative statements and writing oppressive doctrine and curriculum.
Reading the disturbing accounts of the gross misuse of “church authority” exerted on its members provided by the former members of Driscoll’s church forced to my mind a simple question. What about free will? If they are, as claimed, a bible-believing congregation, then why must they be so heavily guarded from the people they are supposed to be proselytizing? Why must they be coddled with doctrine-specific curriculum and ecclesiastically binding membership contracts? Mr. Driscoll, don’t you trust your flock to hear the voice of God themselves? Or was the curtain in the temple, rent at Christ’s death, only the introduction of the Holy Spirit for you alone? I believe that Joseph Smith has already walked this dangerous road; the Mormon religion is still trying to reform past the blind submission it gave Smith and Brigham Young on the celestial marriage issue.
Every morning, I pass the homeless tent city sponsored by the folks at SPU. Here, the students and faculty at that college are able to decide, of their own accord, to follow Christ’s teachings and serve their fellow man. And they do—from what I understand it is an incredibly successful project that protects many souls from our chilled Seattle winter nights. How different is this then from the “Mars Hill house” Lance lived and worked tirelessly, separated from anyone not of the church, his work going for the good of the church but for no one outside of it?
To the members of this church: Be empowered. You have a powerful set of teachings that have the ability to enable great good in the world. This man Driscoll is telling you not to think for yourselves, not to engage thoughtfully with the very words that you believe Christ died to make true for you. Driscoll wants you to hear him, and only him, as his Sunday big-screen broadcasts to all of his satellite churches make perfectly clear. But Paul tells you, and the Corinthians, this, “4:8 You are already filled. You have already become rich. You have come to reign without us.” You, in your beliefs, have a direct line to Christ. Don’t let Driscoll convince you of the need to continue buying his priestly indulgences.
More...
2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I didn’t come with excellence of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you, except Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 2:3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 2:4 My speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 2:5 that your faith wouldn’t stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Unpopular as it may be to start an opinion with scripture from a book that most of our city does not put stock in, here, for your viewing pleasure, is one of the many scriptures that I hope might throw some caution to the members of Mars Hill Church.
Mr. Kiley’s article has been rumbling around in my belly for days. All of the expected outrage of a former Christian turned progressive liberal had to quell before I could begin to identify the true nature of my anger. Thus identified, my anger stems from this: New Testament Christianity, at its core, is a celebration of the empowered, individual pursuit of Christ and his teachings enabled through Christ’s chosen sacrifice, a celebration that requires no totalitarian middle man making declarative statements and writing oppressive doctrine and curriculum.
Reading the disturbing accounts of the gross misuse of “church authority” exerted on its members provided by the former members of Driscoll’s church forced to my mind a simple question. What about free will? If they are, as claimed, a bible-believing congregation, then why must they be so heavily guarded from the people they are supposed to be proselytizing? Why must they be coddled with doctrine-specific curriculum and ecclesiastically binding membership contracts? Mr. Driscoll, don’t you trust your flock to hear the voice of God themselves? Or was the curtain in the temple, rent at Christ’s death, only the introduction of the Holy Spirit for you alone? I believe that Joseph Smith has already walked this dangerous road; the Mormon religion is still trying to reform past the blind submission it gave Smith and Brigham Young on the celestial marriage issue.
Every morning, I pass the homeless tent city sponsored by the folks at SPU. Here, the students and faculty at that college are able to decide, of their own accord, to follow Christ’s teachings and serve their fellow man. And they do—from what I understand it is an incredibly successful project that protects many souls from our chilled Seattle winter nights. How different is this then from the “Mars Hill house” Lance lived and worked tirelessly, separated from anyone not of the church, his work going for the good of the church but for no one outside of it?
To the members of this church: Be empowered. You have a powerful set of teachings that have the ability to enable great good in the world. This man Driscoll is telling you not to think for yourselves, not to engage thoughtfully with the very words that you believe Christ died to make true for you. Driscoll wants you to hear him, and only him, as his Sunday big-screen broadcasts to all of his satellite churches make perfectly clear. But Paul tells you, and the Corinthians, this, “4:8 You are already filled. You have already become rich. You have come to reign without us.” You, in your beliefs, have a direct line to Christ. Don’t let Driscoll convince you of the need to continue buying his priestly indulgences.
143
YES @15. Exactly.
This is my neighborhood and been watching this church and it's leader closely for about a decade. This is not my Christianity.
Basically anyone who wants to create a separation between you and your family and friends... well, there are clinical diagnosis's for people who do this to other people. It's a sickness, a disease, a lust for power over others. Fascist is a good word too.
If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times; "This man will go down in flames, mark my word." Of course I've ben saying it for years and years and years...
This is my neighborhood and been watching this church and it's leader closely for about a decade. This is not my Christianity.
Basically anyone who wants to create a separation between you and your family and friends... well, there are clinical diagnosis's for people who do this to other people. It's a sickness, a disease, a lust for power over others. Fascist is a good word too.
If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times; "This man will go down in flames, mark my word." Of course I've ben saying it for years and years and years...
144
#120: Wow, it's like you lifted that story right out of the evangelical handbook for evangelism. If that's all it took for you to change your mind, please don't breed. Seriously.
145
I am an atheist and the church culture is as foreign to me as subsistence living is to Mitt Romney.
So forgive me if I ask those on this comments section who have been affiliated with MH church an obvious question but I just have to know:
Did not the fact that Driscoll wrote a book called: "Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe" not immediately clue you in to the size of the guy's ego and need to control?
This is a serious question. I cannot fathom why anyone would be arrogant enough to write a 463-page tome telling everyone what Christians "should" believe. I also cannot fathom why anyone would want to get involved, particularly in an explicitly submissive relationship, with a guy who writes books like that.
So what's the deal? How could anyone enounter Driscoll and not be instantly turned off?
So forgive me if I ask those on this comments section who have been affiliated with MH church an obvious question but I just have to know:
Did not the fact that Driscoll wrote a book called: "Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe" not immediately clue you in to the size of the guy's ego and need to control?
This is a serious question. I cannot fathom why anyone would be arrogant enough to write a 463-page tome telling everyone what Christians "should" believe. I also cannot fathom why anyone would want to get involved, particularly in an explicitly submissive relationship, with a guy who writes books like that.
So what's the deal? How could anyone enounter Driscoll and not be instantly turned off?
146
I went to Mars Hill regularly for 1.5 years. After every sermon, I felt ashamed for the sin I committed. Thus, I joined a community group to better myself. I realized that I never became a Christian and I asked non-Christian questions such as "Why did God even create the forbidden fruit?" I had Mars Hill people yell at me for that for not having faith. I eventually left the church, but they didn't leave me.
147
I regulary went to Mars Hill U-district branch for 1.5 years. During that time, I realized that I wasn't actually Christian even though I was raised that way. Thus, I joined a community group to better myself. As I went to these community groups, I would bring up questions such as "why did God create the forbidden fruit?". I got yelled at for not having faith. I left the church, but they didn't leave me
148
Lance-MH,
Hi...I am Sophia, keeper of the marshillrefuge.blogspot.com blog...And I hear you. I don't know if you have read our story but we did not sin either. We just wanted to go elsewhere.
I am glad you saw MH for what it is...I will link to your story on our blog. If you would like to guest post, please email me.
Hi...I am Sophia, keeper of the marshillrefuge.blogspot.com blog...And I hear you. I don't know if you have read our story but we did not sin either. We just wanted to go elsewhere.
I am glad you saw MH for what it is...I will link to your story on our blog. If you would like to guest post, please email me.
149
My post on the Mars Hill church discipline abuse scandal, for those interested: 'Mars Hill Seattle, and the Problem of Insulated Churches'
http://brokentelegraph.com/2012/01/30/ma…
http://brokentelegraph.com/2012/01/30/ma…
150
This article has a lot of good points, and also blows alot out of proportion. I go to Mars Hill, but I for sure don't agree with everything Mark Driscoll says. If you actually believe every little inference Mark Driscoll makes, then you're placing your faith in a "person," not Jesus. Mars Hill is very passionate and convicted about everything they. Because of that, unfortunately we're still passionate even when we're wrong. So when people are called out on their sin, we're sometimes sinfully very passionate about our pride.
I know all the instances talked about above, and they had nothing to do what the people were actually arguing about, they had to do with the state of the person's heart. The people who were kicked out of membership were being proud, stubborn, and not even considering what the staff above them were trying to say. If they had dealt with their problems with the church in a loving, christ-like way, then I have faith that they could have worked something out and these problems would have been avoided.
All in all, Mars Hill ain't perfect, it's a god inspired, man made institution, and the problem is that once man enters the picture, things get fucked up. It's not a cult! I go to UW, I'm gonna be a doctor someday, and I'm a completely normal kid with normal experiences.
Peace!
I know all the instances talked about above, and they had nothing to do what the people were actually arguing about, they had to do with the state of the person's heart. The people who were kicked out of membership were being proud, stubborn, and not even considering what the staff above them were trying to say. If they had dealt with their problems with the church in a loving, christ-like way, then I have faith that they could have worked something out and these problems would have been avoided.
All in all, Mars Hill ain't perfect, it's a god inspired, man made institution, and the problem is that once man enters the picture, things get fucked up. It's not a cult! I go to UW, I'm gonna be a doctor someday, and I'm a completely normal kid with normal experiences.
Peace!
151
@Matholamew
" If they had dealt with their problems with the church in a loving, christ-like way, then I have faith that they could have worked something out and these problems would have been avoided."
I'm very sorry you do not see the error in that statement.
" If they had dealt with their problems with the church in a loving, christ-like way, then I have faith that they could have worked something out and these problems would have been avoided."
I'm very sorry you do not see the error in that statement.
152
@Matholamew
My question is, were you there in those meetings with the CGL, or pastor?
I am one of the people mentioned in the article, and I was loving. Even when I got the horrible email. It is exactly the blind attitude you have that believes the leadership handled it well and anyone who tells their story is guilty of the sin of pride or rebellion or not agreeing with us or questioning or not being Reformed enough or not letting some young, arrogant kid who thinks he is Pastor Mark tell us whether or not we are hearing from God and rightly interpreting the scripture.
The funny thing is that MH members will defend this, until it happens to them. And when or if it does, please know, you are welcome to the refuge, we will love you (even if you sinned), we will introduce you to GRACE (not Driscoll), and we will tell your story, without judgment. I am glad you are happy at MH, but just because you have had a good experience, it doesn't necessarily invalidate others bad experiences.
There is a great post: http://matthewpaulturner.net/jesus-needs…
My question is, were you there in those meetings with the CGL, or pastor?
I am one of the people mentioned in the article, and I was loving. Even when I got the horrible email. It is exactly the blind attitude you have that believes the leadership handled it well and anyone who tells their story is guilty of the sin of pride or rebellion or not agreeing with us or questioning or not being Reformed enough or not letting some young, arrogant kid who thinks he is Pastor Mark tell us whether or not we are hearing from God and rightly interpreting the scripture.
The funny thing is that MH members will defend this, until it happens to them. And when or if it does, please know, you are welcome to the refuge, we will love you (even if you sinned), we will introduce you to GRACE (not Driscoll), and we will tell your story, without judgment. I am glad you are happy at MH, but just because you have had a good experience, it doesn't necessarily invalidate others bad experiences.
There is a great post: http://matthewpaulturner.net/jesus-needs…
153
Lance~
I am glad you told your story! I linked it at marshillrefuge.blogspot.com
Come visit us anytime, and if you would like to guest post...email me...The address is at the website!
Sophia
I am glad you told your story! I linked it at marshillrefuge.blogspot.com
Come visit us anytime, and if you would like to guest post...email me...The address is at the website!
Sophia
154
I'm a deacon at Mars Hill and have been a member of the church for eight years. Because the names of the people interviewed in this article have been omitted, and the accused haven't been provided the opportunity to respond, I can't comment on those cases specifically. That said, I don't doubt that some of these accounts are probably true.
When I first came to MH, our congregation consisted of 1,000 people in one location. Today we are 15,000 people in 14 locations. We have dozens of pastors, hundreds of deacons, and hundreds of community group leaders, and in any organization of that size there will inevitably be some problems.
No one is required to become a member to attend services at Mars Hill, and everyone knows the rules when they sign the Member Covenant. Don't like the rules, don't join. There are leaders in the church I don't agree with either, just as there are in my day job. If you have a problem with one leader, take up the issue with another, or switch groups/locations. I'll bet that every day of the week, people get fired from Microsoft for not being "team players", or failing to follow the terms of their employment contracts. But I don't see the Stranger writing articles entitled "Software company or cult?"
Mars Hill leaders are human and flawed, just like everyone else. And when we make mistakes, we are disciplined or removed, just like our members. And for every one story like the ones mentioned in this article, I can tell you a dozen other stories of people like myself, who were saved from lives of abuse, drug addiction, depression, and hopelessness through the grace and work of Jesus Christ at Mars Hill.
When I first came to MH, our congregation consisted of 1,000 people in one location. Today we are 15,000 people in 14 locations. We have dozens of pastors, hundreds of deacons, and hundreds of community group leaders, and in any organization of that size there will inevitably be some problems.
No one is required to become a member to attend services at Mars Hill, and everyone knows the rules when they sign the Member Covenant. Don't like the rules, don't join. There are leaders in the church I don't agree with either, just as there are in my day job. If you have a problem with one leader, take up the issue with another, or switch groups/locations. I'll bet that every day of the week, people get fired from Microsoft for not being "team players", or failing to follow the terms of their employment contracts. But I don't see the Stranger writing articles entitled "Software company or cult?"
Mars Hill leaders are human and flawed, just like everyone else. And when we make mistakes, we are disciplined or removed, just like our members. And for every one story like the ones mentioned in this article, I can tell you a dozen other stories of people like myself, who were saved from lives of abuse, drug addiction, depression, and hopelessness through the grace and work of Jesus Christ at Mars Hill.
155
I'm a deacon at Mars Hill and have been a member of the church for eight years. Because the names of the people interviewed in this article have been omitted, and the accused haven't been provided the opportunity to respond, I can't comment on those cases specifically. That said, I don't doubt that some of these accounts are probably true.
When I first came to MH, our congregation consisted of 1,000 people in one location. Today we are 15,000 people in 14 locations. We have dozens of pastors, hundreds of deacons, and hundreds of community group leaders, and in any organization of that size there will inevitably be some problems.
No one is required to become a member to attend services at Mars Hill, and everyone knows the rules when they sign the Member Covenant. Don't like the rules, don't join. There are leaders in the church I don't agree with either, just as there are in my day job. If you have a problem with one leader, take up the issue with another, or switch groups/locations. I'll bet that every day of the week, people get fired from Microsoft for not being "team players", or failing to follow the terms of their employment contracts. But I don't see the Stranger writing articles entitled "Software company or cult?"
Mars Hill leaders are human and flawed, just like everyone else. And when we make mistakes, we are disciplined or removed, just like our members. And for every one story like the ones mentioned in this article, I can tell you a dozen other stories of people like myself, who were saved from lives of abuse, drug addiction, depression, and hopelessness through the grace and work of Jesus Christ at Mars Hill.
When I first came to MH, our congregation consisted of 1,000 people in one location. Today we are 15,000 people in 14 locations. We have dozens of pastors, hundreds of deacons, and hundreds of community group leaders, and in any organization of that size there will inevitably be some problems.
No one is required to become a member to attend services at Mars Hill, and everyone knows the rules when they sign the Member Covenant. Don't like the rules, don't join. There are leaders in the church I don't agree with either, just as there are in my day job. If you have a problem with one leader, take up the issue with another, or switch groups/locations. I'll bet that every day of the week, people get fired from Microsoft for not being "team players", or failing to follow the terms of their employment contracts. But I don't see the Stranger writing articles entitled "Software company or cult?"
Mars Hill leaders are human and flawed, just like everyone else. And when we make mistakes, we are disciplined or removed, just like our members. And for every one story like the ones mentioned in this article, I can tell you a dozen other stories of people like myself, who were saved from lives of abuse, drug addiction, depression, and hopelessness through the grace and work of Jesus Christ at Mars Hill.
156
I'm a deacon at Mars Hill and have been a member of the church for eight years. Because the names of the people interviewed in this article have been omitted, and the accused haven't been provided the opportunity to respond, I can't comment on those cases specifically. That said, I don't doubt that some of these accounts are probably true.
When I first came to MH, our congregation consisted of 1,000 people in one location. Today we are 15,000 people in 14 locations. We have dozens of pastors, hundreds of deacons, and hundreds of community group leaders, and in any organization of that size there will inevitably be some problems.
No one is required to become a member to attend services at Mars Hill, and everyone knows the rules when they sign the Member Covenant. Don't like the rules, don't join. There are leaders in the church I don't agree with either, just as there are in my day job. If you have a problem with one leader, take up the issue with another, or switch groups/locations. I'll bet that every day of the week, people get fired from Microsoft for not being "team players", or failing to follow the terms of their employment contracts. But I don't see the Stranger writing articles entitled "Software company or cult?"
Mars Hill leaders are human and flawed, just like everyone else. And when we make mistakes, we are disciplined or removed, just like our members. And for every one story like the ones mentioned in this article, I can tell you a dozen other stories of people like myself, who were saved from lives of abuse, drug addiction, depression, and hopelessness through the grace and work of Jesus Christ at Mars Hill.
When I first came to MH, our congregation consisted of 1,000 people in one location. Today we are 15,000 people in 14 locations. We have dozens of pastors, hundreds of deacons, and hundreds of community group leaders, and in any organization of that size there will inevitably be some problems.
No one is required to become a member to attend services at Mars Hill, and everyone knows the rules when they sign the Member Covenant. Don't like the rules, don't join. There are leaders in the church I don't agree with either, just as there are in my day job. If you have a problem with one leader, take up the issue with another, or switch groups/locations. I'll bet that every day of the week, people get fired from Microsoft for not being "team players", or failing to follow the terms of their employment contracts. But I don't see the Stranger writing articles entitled "Software company or cult?"
Mars Hill leaders are human and flawed, just like everyone else. And when we make mistakes, we are disciplined or removed, just like our members. And for every one story like the ones mentioned in this article, I can tell you a dozen other stories of people like myself, who were saved from lives of abuse, drug addiction, depression, and hopelessness through the grace and work of Jesus Christ at Mars Hill.
158
Thank you Brandon for what seems to me to be a very careful and well written article.
I am struck by the stories of both men who were willing to not only to tell their stories, but courageous enough at the time to be honest with their partners and their community about their own personal failings. Shit - that takes a lot of guts and I am saddened that their courage was met by shame instead of the graceful compassion that I would expect from anyone who knows the teachings of Jesus. - robert deeble
I am struck by the stories of both men who were willing to not only to tell their stories, but courageous enough at the time to be honest with their partners and their community about their own personal failings. Shit - that takes a lot of guts and I am saddened that their courage was met by shame instead of the graceful compassion that I would expect from anyone who knows the teachings of Jesus. - robert deeble
159
Thank you Brandon for what seems to me to be a fair and well written article.
I am struck by the stories of both of these men in the article not only for their willingness to to tell their stories, but for their courage to be honest with their partners and community about their own personal failings. That takes guts and it is sad to me that such courage was met with shame by their community and not the graceful compassion that I would expect from anyone who has ever read the teachings of Jesus (or carefully studied the letters of Paul).
I am struck by the stories of both of these men in the article not only for their willingness to to tell their stories, but for their courage to be honest with their partners and community about their own personal failings. That takes guts and it is sad to me that such courage was met with shame by their community and not the graceful compassion that I would expect from anyone who has ever read the teachings of Jesus (or carefully studied the letters of Paul).
160
NJot just 'crossing the line' but HAS crossed the line --all the earmarks of a cult. Remember the Community Chapel in Burien years ago? The same things are transpiring at Mars Hill - and too many of its' people are blind to these dangers ! There undoubtedly will be a big fall in the future....M. Driscoll appears to be a very dangerous personality !
161
Wow, another anti-Marshill/Mark Driscoll article from the Stranger. Surprise, surprise. In a city of more than 2 million don't you have something else to write about?
162
Thank you Brendan for your article. Mars Hill Church is a church that needs to be taken down. I was there for a year and a half because Pastor Mark Driscoll was the first pastor that spoke to me at the time. Before that, I would always fall asleep at church. I went to Mars Hill U-District because I wanted to better myself and get comfort for my organic chemistry issues. I just felt judged the entire time I was there. He believes that Avatar is paganism and non christians are demonic amongst other things. They also have a pie chart during offering to guilt trip you to offer to the church. The people are just like Mark Driscoll. They judged and yelled at me for asking questions such as "Why did God create the forbidden fruit?" and answered it with "Just have faith". I left this church and religion altogether
163
@161, seattle's population is around 500,000. do your homework, shit-for-brains.
also, as a wise man once said, it's not the faith that's the problem, it's the faithful.
also, as a wise man once said, it's not the faith that's the problem, it's the faithful.
164
History has shown that those who impose these standards are often sexually perverse themselves. Time will play this out. Don't be surprised.
165
hi - good article. wanted to point out that boys being kinesthetic learners has NOTHING to do with their sexuality. Boys learning styles have led to higher ADHD diagnosis rates and failure in school environments. Boys simply learn in a more physical manner and really do need lots of physical activity. No matter what an idiot Driscoll is, he's actually right that providing indoor playgrounds would help boys in general. A gay boy would feel fine because unless he's actually transgendered, he's still a boy and will still learn like a boy.
166
DeaconD, it's telling that you compare MH to a business rather than taking a nod from the bible and comparing the church to a body. Do you make a contract with your arm? How about your shin? Do you cut off your foot when you step on a nail? Thinking of the church as a body, the situations described in Brendan's piece are ones where the treatment is worse than any effects of the sickness itself.
167
@155 - Comparing a company (Microsoft) to a church clearly shows you don't understand what a cult is. Microsoft's behavior of firing people for not doing their job is far different than the bizarre practices of Mars Hill. And although some might argue with this, Microsoft isn't a religious institution.
A cult by definition has practices that are considered abnormal. Microsoft, or any company, has established rules, policies, and procedures in place that protect the company, rather than the leader of a church, and are usually standard practice throughout the industry.
And, I applaud you for saving people from depression, drug addiction, hopelessness, and abuse, BUT people can be saved from all those things WITHOUT religion.
A cult by definition has practices that are considered abnormal. Microsoft, or any company, has established rules, policies, and procedures in place that protect the company, rather than the leader of a church, and are usually standard practice throughout the industry.
And, I applaud you for saving people from depression, drug addiction, hopelessness, and abuse, BUT people can be saved from all those things WITHOUT religion.
168
@163 - Although he's incorrect with the 2 million population, you're also incorrect. Seattle's population is just over 608,000. And the urban population (Seattle and surrounding suburbs) is 2.7 million.
169
I've been at the church almost 5 years. I've asked many, MANY faith-shaking questions, and never held back about my doubts, and I've never felt judged or condemned. In fact, the pastors were very open, very compassionate, and very helpful.
Many of the sermons I heard have openly said the opposite of what the claims in this article are. Mainly, the questioning and the unchecked authority of the husband. Driscoll himself, MULTIPLE TIMES, said that if his sermons and stances aren't aligned with Scripture, then he is the one who's wrong, and should be regarded as such. And the cherry-picking about the husband being simply a gardener is sad skew of the true view at MH.
I've never once encountered a power-tripping elder or deacon, but I'll keep an open mind and keep an eye out, as such a person should absolutely be exposed and dealt with.
At first I thought this article was a joke, until I read that people are actually taking it seriously. I don't know if this guy is just trying to drum up controversy, or it's just somebody trying to skew facts in order to push their own beliefs on people.
I wouldn't expect anybody to believe me, though. Instead, I would implore that people do their own research, rather than blindly trusting this Brendan Kiley guy. A lot of important facts are omitted, other half-truths are ridiculously skewed, and it sickens me that The Stranger would release such a slanderous article.
Nothing compares to going out and doing your own fact-checking. And frankly, people who would read an article, and believe every word have no place to judge anybody for allegedly "drinking the kool-aid".
Many of the sermons I heard have openly said the opposite of what the claims in this article are. Mainly, the questioning and the unchecked authority of the husband. Driscoll himself, MULTIPLE TIMES, said that if his sermons and stances aren't aligned with Scripture, then he is the one who's wrong, and should be regarded as such. And the cherry-picking about the husband being simply a gardener is sad skew of the true view at MH.
I've never once encountered a power-tripping elder or deacon, but I'll keep an open mind and keep an eye out, as such a person should absolutely be exposed and dealt with.
At first I thought this article was a joke, until I read that people are actually taking it seriously. I don't know if this guy is just trying to drum up controversy, or it's just somebody trying to skew facts in order to push their own beliefs on people.
I wouldn't expect anybody to believe me, though. Instead, I would implore that people do their own research, rather than blindly trusting this Brendan Kiley guy. A lot of important facts are omitted, other half-truths are ridiculously skewed, and it sickens me that The Stranger would release such a slanderous article.
Nothing compares to going out and doing your own fact-checking. And frankly, people who would read an article, and believe every word have no place to judge anybody for allegedly "drinking the kool-aid".
170
I've been at the church almost 5 years. I've asked many, MANY faith-shaking questions, and never held back about my doubts, and I've never felt judged or condemned. In fact, the pastors were very open, very compassionate, and very helpful.
Many of the sermons I heard have openly said the opposite of what the claims in this article are. Mainly, the questioning and the unchecked authority of the husband. Driscoll himself, MULTIPLE TIMES, said that if his sermons and stances aren't aligned with Scripture, then he is the one who's wrong, and should be regarded as such. And the cherry-picking about the husband being simply a gardener is sad skew of the true view at MH.
I've never once encountered a power-tripping elder or deacon, but I'll keep an open mind and keep an eye out, as such a person should absolutely be exposed and dealt with.
At first I thought this article was a joke, until I read that people are actually taking it seriously. I don't know if this guy is just trying to drum up controversy, or it's just somebody trying to skew facts in order to push their own beliefs on people.
I wouldn't expect anybody to believe me, though. Instead, I would implore that people do their own research, rather than blindly trusting this Brendan Kiley guy. A lot of important facts are omitted, other half-truths are ridiculously skewed, and it sickens me that The Stranger would release such a slanderous article.
Nothing compares to going out and doing your own fact-checking. And frankly, people who would read an article, and believe every word have no place to judge anybody for allegedly "drinking the kool-aid".
Many of the sermons I heard have openly said the opposite of what the claims in this article are. Mainly, the questioning and the unchecked authority of the husband. Driscoll himself, MULTIPLE TIMES, said that if his sermons and stances aren't aligned with Scripture, then he is the one who's wrong, and should be regarded as such. And the cherry-picking about the husband being simply a gardener is sad skew of the true view at MH.
I've never once encountered a power-tripping elder or deacon, but I'll keep an open mind and keep an eye out, as such a person should absolutely be exposed and dealt with.
At first I thought this article was a joke, until I read that people are actually taking it seriously. I don't know if this guy is just trying to drum up controversy, or it's just somebody trying to skew facts in order to push their own beliefs on people.
I wouldn't expect anybody to believe me, though. Instead, I would implore that people do their own research, rather than blindly trusting this Brendan Kiley guy. A lot of important facts are omitted, other half-truths are ridiculously skewed, and it sickens me that The Stranger would release such a slanderous article.
Nothing compares to going out and doing your own fact-checking. And frankly, people who would read an article, and believe every word have no place to judge anybody for allegedly "drinking the kool-aid".
171
When you quit Microsoft, they don't generally follow you--or ban you from contacting current employees. They also don't tell you who to date and such, but of course, they're in the software business, not the sin-redemption business.
To me, it's comforting to know that if Mars Hill people do harass members who quit (even in the sense of "warning" their new church of their sins), it's very possible for ex-members to take legal action against the church and win.
US law holds that if you join a church, you are subject to its rules. Likewise though, if you quit it, they have no authority to do anything to you.
A number of churches have tried to assert authority on those who have left, and found out the hard way that that doesn't fly.
To me, it's comforting to know that if Mars Hill people do harass members who quit (even in the sense of "warning" their new church of their sins), it's very possible for ex-members to take legal action against the church and win.
US law holds that if you join a church, you are subject to its rules. Likewise though, if you quit it, they have no authority to do anything to you.
A number of churches have tried to assert authority on those who have left, and found out the hard way that that doesn't fly.
172
@170 Careful with the positive stories about Mars Hill. Hearing the other side of the story might not be appreciated here. Let's try to keep it all one sided, reactionary Christian bashing all in the name of "free thinking". Yeah, that's the ticket.
174
MARS HILL: THE SAME OLD INTOLERANT, FUNDAMENTALIST WOLF DRESSED IN A WOOL HIPSTER OUTFIT.
I was raised in a Jehovah's Witness environment, and can say with conviction (pun intended) that this shit is the same fundamental rhetoric. I will deal with the same psychological triggers mentioned in this story for the rest of my life--they get planted that deep. It is something NO LOVING PARENT would ever burden their child with. Period.
This is the SAME shit Jehovah's Witnesses do! The misogyny, the intolerance, the threats, the social punishment--not even Driscoll's pathetic methods are original! They defy ALL of Jesus Christ's teachings and it is sickening. Wanna talk about authority? MATTHEW 23:27
P.S. @Vertex (& all defending this church and thinking that this is how "Christians" act)- You are all morons. As in stupid. Unintelligent. Congratulations! Think I'm attacking you Ad hominem? Nope, sorry! It's empirical: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/201… Read it if you are able.
Here's a taster: "Lower levels of abstract reasoning also predicted greater right-wing authoritarianism, which in turn predicted elevated prejudice against homosexuals. Independent of these effects, there was a simultaneous indirect effect through increased intergroup contact: Individuals who had a greater capacity for abstract reasoning experienced more contact with out-groups, and more contact predicted less prejudice."
Whitewashed graves... of the mind.
Amen.
--Brine
I was raised in a Jehovah's Witness environment, and can say with conviction (pun intended) that this shit is the same fundamental rhetoric. I will deal with the same psychological triggers mentioned in this story for the rest of my life--they get planted that deep. It is something NO LOVING PARENT would ever burden their child with. Period.
This is the SAME shit Jehovah's Witnesses do! The misogyny, the intolerance, the threats, the social punishment--not even Driscoll's pathetic methods are original! They defy ALL of Jesus Christ's teachings and it is sickening. Wanna talk about authority? MATTHEW 23:27
P.S. @Vertex (& all defending this church and thinking that this is how "Christians" act)- You are all morons. As in stupid. Unintelligent. Congratulations! Think I'm attacking you Ad hominem? Nope, sorry! It's empirical: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/201… Read it if you are able.
Here's a taster: "Lower levels of abstract reasoning also predicted greater right-wing authoritarianism, which in turn predicted elevated prejudice against homosexuals. Independent of these effects, there was a simultaneous indirect effect through increased intergroup contact: Individuals who had a greater capacity for abstract reasoning experienced more contact with out-groups, and more contact predicted less prejudice."
Whitewashed graves... of the mind.
Amen.
--Brine
175
MARS HILL: THE SAME OLD INTOLERANT, FUNDAMENTALIST WOLF DRESSED IN A WOOL HIPSTER OUTFIT.
I was raised in a Jehovah's Witness environment. I was involved in the church into my twenties and my father was and is a pastor in that religion--thus can say with conviction (pun intended) that this shit is the EXACT same fundamentalist, manipulative, small-minded rhetoric. The mention of the Mars Hill Kids development resonated particularly with me, as I will deal with (essentially) the same psychological triggers mentioned in this story for the rest of my life--when planted during infancy, as Driscoll talked about, oh yes, they get planted THAT deep. It is something NO LOVING PARENT would ever burden their child with. Period.
It begs to be shouted: this is the SAME sick strategy Jehovah's Witnesses use! THE SAME! The misogyny, the intolerance, the threats, the social punishment--not even Driscoll's pathetic methods are original!!! More importantly, though, they defy ALL of Jesus Christ's teachings, and that is the most sickening of all. Wanna talk about the "authority of the church" in this context? It is astoundingly anti-christian. READ MATTHEW 23:27. READ MATTHEW 7:3.
P.S. @Vertex (& all defending this church and thinking that this is how "Christians" act)- Not only are you *NOT* acting like Christ did, but you are all morons, as well. Yes, as in stupid, unintelligent. Think I'm attacking you Ad hominem? Think again (if you have the capability)! It's empirical: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/201…
Read it if you can manage it.
Here's a taster: "Lower levels of abstract reasoning also predicted greater right-wing authoritarianism, which in turn predicted elevated prejudice against homosexuals [amongst other groups]. Independent of these effects, there was a simultaneous indirect effect through increased intergroup contact: Individuals who had a greater capacity for abstract reasoning experienced more contact with out-groups, and more contact predicted less prejudice."
You are, indeed, as Jesus called it, whitewashed graves... of the soul and the mind.
Amen, brothers and sisters!
--Brine
More...
I was raised in a Jehovah's Witness environment. I was involved in the church into my twenties and my father was and is a pastor in that religion--thus can say with conviction (pun intended) that this shit is the EXACT same fundamentalist, manipulative, small-minded rhetoric. The mention of the Mars Hill Kids development resonated particularly with me, as I will deal with (essentially) the same psychological triggers mentioned in this story for the rest of my life--when planted during infancy, as Driscoll talked about, oh yes, they get planted THAT deep. It is something NO LOVING PARENT would ever burden their child with. Period.
It begs to be shouted: this is the SAME sick strategy Jehovah's Witnesses use! THE SAME! The misogyny, the intolerance, the threats, the social punishment--not even Driscoll's pathetic methods are original!!! More importantly, though, they defy ALL of Jesus Christ's teachings, and that is the most sickening of all. Wanna talk about the "authority of the church" in this context? It is astoundingly anti-christian. READ MATTHEW 23:27. READ MATTHEW 7:3.
P.S. @Vertex (& all defending this church and thinking that this is how "Christians" act)- Not only are you *NOT* acting like Christ did, but you are all morons, as well. Yes, as in stupid, unintelligent. Think I'm attacking you Ad hominem? Think again (if you have the capability)! It's empirical: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/201…
Read it if you can manage it.
Here's a taster: "Lower levels of abstract reasoning also predicted greater right-wing authoritarianism, which in turn predicted elevated prejudice against homosexuals [amongst other groups]. Independent of these effects, there was a simultaneous indirect effect through increased intergroup contact: Individuals who had a greater capacity for abstract reasoning experienced more contact with out-groups, and more contact predicted less prejudice."
You are, indeed, as Jesus called it, whitewashed graves... of the soul and the mind.
Amen, brothers and sisters!
--Brine
177
@171,
What "US law" are you referring to that requires people who join churches to "follow their rules".
The rest of your post was on point, but that's just nonsense.
What "US law" are you referring to that requires people who join churches to "follow their rules".
The rest of your post was on point, but that's just nonsense.
178
@172 - More of the poor, poor, pitiful put-upon Christian routine. So much oppression against the pet superstition of the ruling class!
179
To those of you defending MD and MH, YOU need to do your research....There has been too much damage done to young people and so many families destroyed! I would say when the dust settles there will be many more. To you that are under the Driscoll spell I pray you wake up before you are like me, just more collateral damage...
180
I am not a member of Mars Hill. I am not even Christian. I'm just a guy that reads The Stranger, and I have to say that this article was kinda lame. I mean, to start with, the verdict was clearly made before the research was even started. It goes without saying that there was a heavy bias employed in selecting interview subjects, but it goes further than that - it is totally weak journalism. Sure, religion is a touchy subject. Most of the above comments serve to show how easy it is to stir that pot. If you are going to write about religion, why not challenge your readership in some way? All I can see here is that The Stranger had nothing more interesting to report on, so sunk to the low tide of journalism - attacking churches. Yawn.
181
Full disclosure: I attend Mars Hill Church regularly, and I am a member.
I'm sorry that you were disappointed that Pastor Mark did not address any of these old or new issues in the sermon you attended. Pastor Mark's sermons are in fact not transmitted live anymore (although they used to be a couple of years ago). Most weeks there is a one-week delay between the sermon preached in Ballard and the sermons seen at the other locations. In the Real Marriage series, the majority of the sermons were actually recorded in two long evening sessions at the Bellevue location back in December so you may continue to expect them not to address topical subjects for the next several weeks.
Thanks,
Jeremy
I'm sorry that you were disappointed that Pastor Mark did not address any of these old or new issues in the sermon you attended. Pastor Mark's sermons are in fact not transmitted live anymore (although they used to be a couple of years ago). Most weeks there is a one-week delay between the sermon preached in Ballard and the sermons seen at the other locations. In the Real Marriage series, the majority of the sermons were actually recorded in two long evening sessions at the Bellevue location back in December so you may continue to expect them not to address topical subjects for the next several weeks.
Thanks,
Jeremy
182
The one defining characteristic of every cult is CONTROL - its leader's desire to control every aspect of their followers' lives.
This is a cult.
This is a cult.
184
Interesting article, and even more interesting comments from the people that've clearly drunk the koolaid.
186
It's got all of the earmarks, from this side of the story. "Cult" at worst; "Pharisaical" at best.
187
God hates faux hawks, especially Mark's. A heavenly angel came to me in my sleep and told me this, no joke!
188
Sadly, these are not exaggerations. I attended MH for 8 years, from close to it's beginning. This has become, more and more, a very, very controlling church. It's so sad.
I continue to pray that my friends who are still there will have their eyes opened. I know it will be very hard for them when they do. There needs to be time for healing after realizing you have been manipulated.
I'm sad I was there as long as I was, but there were some better times. There were also warning signs. However, in the light of "there is no perfect church and Christians are far from perfect", myself included, I continued to attend.
I'm reading what is so far a very good book: "Walk On: The Spiritual Journey of U2" by Steve Stockman. They (U2) were appalled and saddened by what so many people and churches were saying and doing "in the name of Christ". They chose to follow Christ but distance themselves from the lunacy and I completely relate.
I continue to pray that my friends who are still there will have their eyes opened. I know it will be very hard for them when they do. There needs to be time for healing after realizing you have been manipulated.
I'm sad I was there as long as I was, but there were some better times. There were also warning signs. However, in the light of "there is no perfect church and Christians are far from perfect", myself included, I continued to attend.
I'm reading what is so far a very good book: "Walk On: The Spiritual Journey of U2" by Steve Stockman. They (U2) were appalled and saddened by what so many people and churches were saying and doing "in the name of Christ". They chose to follow Christ but distance themselves from the lunacy and I completely relate.
189
You got Ezekiel 4:9 granola and uncle sam cornflakes at QFC.
http://www.foodforlife.com/product-catal…
http://www.attunefoods.com/products/Uncl…
Your Government protects the christian rackets as right wing Jesus freaks shovel big bucks to its polittypiggy of choice to the point they demonize gay people and other religions and other nations or black people, slavery, Illegals, Canadians....etc.
Next Sunday they are going to drag their ignorant shame-full ass to a bunch of churches and study a book as they remain set in for "one" cause and thats to spread Crist-insaneity and Republican polittypiggys across the globe.
Yup the middle east feels paronoid and it should as nothing "but" the talk of war is backed with violence in the street and American troops loitering forever.
But never fear as God kicks the crap out of all of us humans. Molesters in the catholic church! gay date rapers! even the righteous and good! even children and babys and kittens and lady bugs.
we all suffer and if you have not yet and don't believe you will you may be an ignorant insane republican christian hell bent to prove gays are
evil terrorists and Muslim middle east should be bombed and colonized.
http://www.foodforlife.com/product-catal…
http://www.attunefoods.com/products/Uncl…
Your Government protects the christian rackets as right wing Jesus freaks shovel big bucks to its polittypiggy of choice to the point they demonize gay people and other religions and other nations or black people, slavery, Illegals, Canadians....etc.
Next Sunday they are going to drag their ignorant shame-full ass to a bunch of churches and study a book as they remain set in for "one" cause and thats to spread Crist-insaneity and Republican polittypiggys across the globe.
Yup the middle east feels paronoid and it should as nothing "but" the talk of war is backed with violence in the street and American troops loitering forever.
But never fear as God kicks the crap out of all of us humans. Molesters in the catholic church! gay date rapers! even the righteous and good! even children and babys and kittens and lady bugs.
we all suffer and if you have not yet and don't believe you will you may be an ignorant insane republican christian hell bent to prove gays are
evil terrorists and Muslim middle east should be bombed and colonized.
190
Here's a helpful blog (from a local church) on the pros and cons of church discipline: http://graceseattle.wordpress.com/2012/0…
191
Sounds like Jerry Falwell come back to life as a wanna be hipster:
- sheep. Check
- school. Check
- balls. Check
Next thing we'll hear him talk about wanting to open up a research university as bad ass as UW.
The ironic thing, to me at least, is that the term 'hipster' sounds like one of those media inventions, in this case, as a tool to communicate their ideas about a sub-culture (they haven't quite figured out yet). No?
- sheep. Check
- school. Check
- balls. Check
Next thing we'll hear him talk about wanting to open up a research university as bad ass as UW.
The ironic thing, to me at least, is that the term 'hipster' sounds like one of those media inventions, in this case, as a tool to communicate their ideas about a sub-culture (they haven't quite figured out yet). No?
192
Thanks for this article - I've heard rumors of this church since I moved to Seattle, and how interesting to read about its inception.
I just want to say: I'm Catholic and in all my years of attending different parishes, none of this crap ever happened. NOT all organized religion is the same, and not all Christianity sects are the same. Sermons are inspiring yet logical, and not offensive in the least. Priests don't put down other religions, or tell you how to vote. Nobody in the "community" tells you how to live. I would even say most Catholic people I've met are rather liberal and accepting, open-minded.
One of the creepiest things is that Mars Hill members are in the comments arguing about what Andrew REALLY did or did not do w/ women in their church - how do they KNOW about that!?!? Sooo creepy. In normal churches, the sexual actions of another member aren't made public or spoken about. Gross.
I just want to say: I'm Catholic and in all my years of attending different parishes, none of this crap ever happened. NOT all organized religion is the same, and not all Christianity sects are the same. Sermons are inspiring yet logical, and not offensive in the least. Priests don't put down other religions, or tell you how to vote. Nobody in the "community" tells you how to live. I would even say most Catholic people I've met are rather liberal and accepting, open-minded.
One of the creepiest things is that Mars Hill members are in the comments arguing about what Andrew REALLY did or did not do w/ women in their church - how do they KNOW about that!?!? Sooo creepy. In normal churches, the sexual actions of another member aren't made public or spoken about. Gross.
193
Mars Hill isn't much different from most evangelical conservative christian churches. If you ask me about my old church, I will tell you that it is a good church, that is full of good people, but people who are too afraid to be real, too afraid of being anything but superfical.
I attend Mars Hill, and I can say that the people who leave Mars Hill might say the same thing.
The core of it is, when you leave a church, unless you're are moving due to geography, there is ALWAYS a degree of hurt and maybe distrust. These people were your family, they dealt with the junk in your life, and then poof, they're gone. That intensifies the hurt. I still feel hurt from leaving my old church, BUT I also have enough wisdom to know, that that's just how it goes.
I'm sorry for the people of MH that have been deeply hurt. Some of it is probably just as I said, and some of it I am sure is based on someone at the church, acting on their own wisdom, and not God's.
What you have to realize is, church is a place of broken people. We are always going to hurt eachother, and I think hurt eachother more deeply, because we know eachother on a deeper level.
It's easy to judge the whole church, but don't forget, you're judging the people whithin it, most who are just the average people of the city. Which, is like saying "all asians drive hondas, or all lesbians have short hair, or all people who wear tennis shoes run" You are making sweeping sterotypes that are not always true, and sometimes very hurtful
I know The Stranger's demographic, and while trying not to be a hypocrite... most already don't like Mars Hill. Please though, balance your reporting. And if they don't want to speak to you, could it be, because they have been burned by your newspaper too many times, and they don't want to feed the beast and be misquoted?
Consider it.
More...
I attend Mars Hill, and I can say that the people who leave Mars Hill might say the same thing.
The core of it is, when you leave a church, unless you're are moving due to geography, there is ALWAYS a degree of hurt and maybe distrust. These people were your family, they dealt with the junk in your life, and then poof, they're gone. That intensifies the hurt. I still feel hurt from leaving my old church, BUT I also have enough wisdom to know, that that's just how it goes.
I'm sorry for the people of MH that have been deeply hurt. Some of it is probably just as I said, and some of it I am sure is based on someone at the church, acting on their own wisdom, and not God's.
What you have to realize is, church is a place of broken people. We are always going to hurt eachother, and I think hurt eachother more deeply, because we know eachother on a deeper level.
It's easy to judge the whole church, but don't forget, you're judging the people whithin it, most who are just the average people of the city. Which, is like saying "all asians drive hondas, or all lesbians have short hair, or all people who wear tennis shoes run" You are making sweeping sterotypes that are not always true, and sometimes very hurtful
I know The Stranger's demographic, and while trying not to be a hypocrite... most already don't like Mars Hill. Please though, balance your reporting. And if they don't want to speak to you, could it be, because they have been burned by your newspaper too many times, and they don't want to feed the beast and be misquoted?
Consider it.
194
Every church has it's problems. Even the apostle Paul had pastors and teachers go haywire on him. At Mars Hill and any other church.
Hang around long enough at any church and you'll see evidence that sin does exist, unfortunately even in the leadership.
You try to weed it out, but leaders still get into their positions and do damage before their stuff is caught.
This is why Jesus died. Sin exists.
It's easy to bash any church is we don't like the Christian religion.
Some Christians are just plain contentious.
I would be careful about believing everything you hear. I don't care what kind of paper documentation is provided. Paul Petry (the pastor who was fired) told me in front of my dad that my ex-husband never hit me and that I needed to repent and go back to my abusive (and lying) ex-husband. Paul Petry (who was fired) was spiritually abusive to me. So I hesitate to take his "witness" as face value. Be careful. Remember that only God has all the information.
This article confirms 1)sin exists (remember, Jesus died to save sinners,) and 2) churches have problems. Mark Driscoll might just be more vocal, and their policies might be a little over the top) but the church issas of sinners
P.s. If you're almost having sex with an old flame when you're a month away from getting married to the fiancé you are having sex with, like Andrew in the story above, and you're also lying to your premarital pastor and yelling him you're not having sex bit you're saying you're a conservative Christian, you better hope your church would speak up about it.
Again, these people may not be giving us all the information.
Hang around long enough at any church and you'll see evidence that sin does exist, unfortunately even in the leadership.
You try to weed it out, but leaders still get into their positions and do damage before their stuff is caught.
This is why Jesus died. Sin exists.
It's easy to bash any church is we don't like the Christian religion.
Some Christians are just plain contentious.
I would be careful about believing everything you hear. I don't care what kind of paper documentation is provided. Paul Petry (the pastor who was fired) told me in front of my dad that my ex-husband never hit me and that I needed to repent and go back to my abusive (and lying) ex-husband. Paul Petry (who was fired) was spiritually abusive to me. So I hesitate to take his "witness" as face value. Be careful. Remember that only God has all the information.
This article confirms 1)sin exists (remember, Jesus died to save sinners,) and 2) churches have problems. Mark Driscoll might just be more vocal, and their policies might be a little over the top) but the church issas of sinners
P.s. If you're almost having sex with an old flame when you're a month away from getting married to the fiancé you are having sex with, like Andrew in the story above, and you're also lying to your premarital pastor and yelling him you're not having sex bit you're saying you're a conservative Christian, you better hope your church would speak up about it.
Again, these people may not be giving us all the information.
195
I guess since the author of the article doesn't provide any example or explanation about what a "church" would be, or look like, we are all forced to draw the conclusion that it's a cult. It looks less like reporting, or even journalism, and more like people with a social-issue axe to grind.
Also, it is hilarious to me that everyone is freaking out about the church wanting to teach kids when they are 2 years old. Imagine the brainwashing! The government has made it a legal requirement for you to have your kids schooled for 12 years, starting around the age of 6, and if you didn't want to attempt this hurculean task on your own, they've provided the facilities for you to send your kids to (since you're required to). But fear not, I am sure no brainwashing happens there.
Just kidding. The intellectually feeble comments in this section, demonstrating a general inability to critically think, prove the brainwashing machine is alive and well.
Keep calm and carry on, citizens!
Also, it is hilarious to me that everyone is freaking out about the church wanting to teach kids when they are 2 years old. Imagine the brainwashing! The government has made it a legal requirement for you to have your kids schooled for 12 years, starting around the age of 6, and if you didn't want to attempt this hurculean task on your own, they've provided the facilities for you to send your kids to (since you're required to). But fear not, I am sure no brainwashing happens there.
Just kidding. The intellectually feeble comments in this section, demonstrating a general inability to critically think, prove the brainwashing machine is alive and well.
Keep calm and carry on, citizens!
196
Anyone who preaches against masturbation is beyond my scope of understanding, even in the most idiotic of realms. As my mother always said to me and repetitively to my friends in high school, "masturbation is the safest form of sex." So have at it! Everyone should be masturbating, if they aren't getting action on the regular at least. We'd all be a lot happier and probably nicer co-workers. Better drivers. Better tippers. Let me just say... when I think about you, I touch myself. Not you Mark Driscoll, though. Sick.
Also, God is all forgiving. Anyone who is mislead by this is not really any sort of Christian. Church really isn't necessary. Believing in a wrathful God means you are living in your own personal Hell. So congratulations, you've made it.
Go. Be nice to each other. Go. Touch yourself- or your significant others, respectfully, of course. They don't call it a happy ending for nothin'.
Also, God is all forgiving. Anyone who is mislead by this is not really any sort of Christian. Church really isn't necessary. Believing in a wrathful God means you are living in your own personal Hell. So congratulations, you've made it.
Go. Be nice to each other. Go. Touch yourself- or your significant others, respectfully, of course. They don't call it a happy ending for nothin'.
197
Also, can we all stop spelling Kool Aid "Cool Aid"?!?!? I'm a terrible speller, but even I know that.
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One last note, isn't it, if I'm following mars hill's doctrine correctly, partly his fiancée's fault for not putting out enough to keep him interested? I hope she was also scrutinized.
That was sarcasm.
That was sarcasm.
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134 & 166 (response to 156) Are the highlights to this circular conversation, I'm glad a read through all this for those two alone..
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Lawls! I love the defenders of MH that, in the same breath, state that they know their church leaders and Mark himself are extreme and not always right in their thinking. However, they, the poster, do not think the same way and are not misogynists and believe in equal rights for women. In case you forgot, in the eyes of your opposition, YOU ARE Driscoll, as far as anyone who is not in your fellowship is concerned. Your numbers of members do not allow you to be viewed any other way, and unfortunately for you, this douche is your talking head. Don't like how you are viewed? Find another church. Or, perhaps, like JC or MD, start your own. Why not. Otherwise, at least admit that you're a little bigoted and a misogynist. Lying, even to yourself, as preached by your people, is a sin. You're only as good as your leader.
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Considering that the Andrew of the story was engaged and then "came pretty close to having sex" with another woman (what does that mean? for some people it's anything besides technical intercourse), and then reports that he told his fiance this and immediately "sped off in his car," I wondered to myself whether he ever bothered to apologize to her or try to make anything right. But the story completely skips over that. And what about the other woman? What is he going to tell her? "Oh ha ha. You know how we fooled around the other day. Well actually I'm engaged. Well actually not any more now. So what do you think? You and me?" The whole thing seems pretty messy. I don't understand why it would be bad then to ask the man not to date anyone for awhile. That seems more than reasonable! Clearly this was an incredibly hurtful act he did against his fiance and I just wonder if anyone considered her in all of this? It must be even worse for her knowing that after all that, he left the church and took all their dirty laundry and aired it out to the public. And partly over the perfectly reasonable request of being asked not to date anyone for awhile.
I don't think we have the right to sit back on limited information and judge the situation. We don't know hardly any of the context under which the documents we've seen were written or the other side of the story. We don't know what Andrew had said or what the people he was meeting with had said. But based on what we do have, in my opinon I don't see the cult aspect here. He did exactly what he wanted in every situation. Maybe he felt bad for a while that he did this, but when push came to shove, there's no evidence that he tried to clean up any of the mess he made or practice the Christian faith he professes. He confessed what he had done but then just walked away. And then he's the one that took this whole situation to the public without regard for the others involved. That doesn't seem noble to me or a trustworthy account to base anything on.
More...
I don't think we have the right to sit back on limited information and judge the situation. We don't know hardly any of the context under which the documents we've seen were written or the other side of the story. We don't know what Andrew had said or what the people he was meeting with had said. But based on what we do have, in my opinon I don't see the cult aspect here. He did exactly what he wanted in every situation. Maybe he felt bad for a while that he did this, but when push came to shove, there's no evidence that he tried to clean up any of the mess he made or practice the Christian faith he professes. He confessed what he had done but then just walked away. And then he's the one that took this whole situation to the public without regard for the others involved. That doesn't seem noble to me or a trustworthy account to base anything on.
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I have been a psychologist for over thirty years.
The notion, nevermind Doctrine, of steering children from an early age to choose their religious beliefs is fundamentally against every
principle of all accepted child rearing ,intellectually dishonest and emotionally abusive. Attention CPS --please pay attention.
The notion, nevermind Doctrine, of steering children from an early age to choose their religious beliefs is fundamentally against every
principle of all accepted child rearing ,intellectually dishonest and emotionally abusive. Attention CPS --please pay attention.
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Yawn, this should be called "Disgruntled members unable to have their way instead get their story spun as evidence in the Strangers war against Christianity."
Seriously the points on control by the former attendees make have nothing to do with the rants about how MH (and all conservative Christians) teach homosexuality as sin (as well as all other sexual sin).
Seriously the points on control by the former attendees make have nothing to do with the rants about how MH (and all conservative Christians) teach homosexuality as sin (as well as all other sexual sin).
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The article asks, "Is this a cult?" I only had to read the first few paragraphs to answer that one.
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Mormonism with its weird non-mainstream beliefs, is no less a Cult than Mars Hill.
ALL religions started out as "Cults".
A "Religion" is merely a Cult that has grown too large and financially and politically secure to not be "respectable".
If the Mars Hill Cult grows big and politically powerful and respectable enough, we won't see anything strange in future about having a Mars Hill member at the beck & call of the Mars Hill "Elders" and subservient to the Dogma, running for President some day.....
No weirder than with Romney {check out his Mormon family background....}
ALL religions started out as "Cults".
A "Religion" is merely a Cult that has grown too large and financially and politically secure to not be "respectable".
If the Mars Hill Cult grows big and politically powerful and respectable enough, we won't see anything strange in future about having a Mars Hill member at the beck & call of the Mars Hill "Elders" and subservient to the Dogma, running for President some day.....
No weirder than with Romney {check out his Mormon family background....}
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For those of you who think that the author is one sided and just trying to paint a bad picture, please take a moment to think of us who have truly been affected by this church.
I lost my sister to Mars Hill. She was heavily involved with them for a few years, and we saw many changes in her over that time. She stopped spending time with almost all of her friends who didn't attend Mars Hill. She told us she couldn't go to prom because the boy who asked her wasn't a member, and her church leaders forbade it. She eventually stopped spending almost any time at all at home and with our family. She moved out the day she turned 18 this past October, a few months into her senior year. We still to this day don't know where she's living or with who. She also changed her phone number so we couldn't contact her.
She disowned our family last month, and went as far to say that our mother is not her mother. Her church family is her family. We did have a difficult childhood, I won't deny that, but I feel like once these people learned about it they took full advantage and gave her things that we couldn't afford. She was always coming home with new clothes and things that we knew she didn't have the money for since she didn't have a job.
We all miss her terribly, and she has made it clear that we are pretty much her enemy. She truly believes that we don't care about her, and never have. My poor mother is heartbroken, and it's hard not to get angry when I have watched her cry over her daughter who got brainwashed and will probably never come home.
We were raised Catholic, and while I don't consider myself a true Catholic because I disagree with some of their views, I still believe in Jesus and just pray that she will come to her senses and come back to us.
More...
I lost my sister to Mars Hill. She was heavily involved with them for a few years, and we saw many changes in her over that time. She stopped spending time with almost all of her friends who didn't attend Mars Hill. She told us she couldn't go to prom because the boy who asked her wasn't a member, and her church leaders forbade it. She eventually stopped spending almost any time at all at home and with our family. She moved out the day she turned 18 this past October, a few months into her senior year. We still to this day don't know where she's living or with who. She also changed her phone number so we couldn't contact her.
She disowned our family last month, and went as far to say that our mother is not her mother. Her church family is her family. We did have a difficult childhood, I won't deny that, but I feel like once these people learned about it they took full advantage and gave her things that we couldn't afford. She was always coming home with new clothes and things that we knew she didn't have the money for since she didn't have a job.
We all miss her terribly, and she has made it clear that we are pretty much her enemy. She truly believes that we don't care about her, and never have. My poor mother is heartbroken, and it's hard not to get angry when I have watched her cry over her daughter who got brainwashed and will probably never come home.
We were raised Catholic, and while I don't consider myself a true Catholic because I disagree with some of their views, I still believe in Jesus and just pray that she will come to her senses and come back to us.
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At least Mars Hill and The Stranger have one thing in common: an unhealthy obsession with sex.
What is that thing they taught in high school civics - that at the ends of any spectrum there is usually some sort of weird connection of the extremes?
What is that thing they taught in high school civics - that at the ends of any spectrum there is usually some sort of weird connection of the extremes?
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My last comment was a bit tongue in cheek. This is more from the heart.
I have been a Christian for most of my life, but have taken a lot of twists and turns (born again; Young Life; Campus Crusade;divinity school; the evangelical world; and for the last while a sense that somehow that world bears little relationship to the larger Spirit of God through now and through time). As I get older it feels ironically and quite sadly that one of the main impediments to people's experience of and belief in God is the Church itself, in all its forms. For me, Christian culture is a human construct that can't escape itself. Whether it's fundamentalist, Catholic, evangelical, liberal, mainline, whatever, at the end of the day, churches have pretty heavy normative behavior, language, expectations, etc. Just try being a fundamentalist at an "open and affirming" church - there's no escaping it.
That being said, Mark Driscoll crossed the far too long ago.
I have been a Christian for most of my life, but have taken a lot of twists and turns (born again; Young Life; Campus Crusade;divinity school; the evangelical world; and for the last while a sense that somehow that world bears little relationship to the larger Spirit of God through now and through time). As I get older it feels ironically and quite sadly that one of the main impediments to people's experience of and belief in God is the Church itself, in all its forms. For me, Christian culture is a human construct that can't escape itself. Whether it's fundamentalist, Catholic, evangelical, liberal, mainline, whatever, at the end of the day, churches have pretty heavy normative behavior, language, expectations, etc. Just try being a fundamentalist at an "open and affirming" church - there's no escaping it.
That being said, Mark Driscoll crossed the far too long ago.
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And finally…
Mark Driscoll: if you happen to be reading these posts late night or whenever, I encourage you to resign. If you haven’t figured it out yet, it’s completely gotten away from you. Sooner or later, it will all come crashing down, big time. Your overwrought, extremely public playing out of whatever sexual problems and obsessions you have will catch up with you sooner or later - maybe best to ease out quietly and deal with those issues in a more humble and effective fashion. Reading this http://pastormark.tv/2012/01/31/10-refle… gives me a sense maybe you have some glimmers of self awareness. You are way too hardened up and it’s time to ease out. You should drop out, and start over doing something that sounds good, maybe some deep sea fishing, cross country motorcycling, body building, running a gym or machine shop – I mean this seriously. You are no pastor. Man up, it’s over, get out. You’re just running a program of enslavement lite.
Other church leaders (and I’m not talking about Mars Hill, I’m talking about all the other Christians throughout the area): It is an embarrassment to the Church generally that the biggest entity to confront Driscoll is The Stranger. Come on, there’s thousands of churches, several Christian universities, even a couple of divinity schools for God’s sake – it’s time. Woman and man up and get rid of this guy. No more hand wringing.
Mark Driscoll: if you happen to be reading these posts late night or whenever, I encourage you to resign. If you haven’t figured it out yet, it’s completely gotten away from you. Sooner or later, it will all come crashing down, big time. Your overwrought, extremely public playing out of whatever sexual problems and obsessions you have will catch up with you sooner or later - maybe best to ease out quietly and deal with those issues in a more humble and effective fashion. Reading this http://pastormark.tv/2012/01/31/10-refle… gives me a sense maybe you have some glimmers of self awareness. You are way too hardened up and it’s time to ease out. You should drop out, and start over doing something that sounds good, maybe some deep sea fishing, cross country motorcycling, body building, running a gym or machine shop – I mean this seriously. You are no pastor. Man up, it’s over, get out. You’re just running a program of enslavement lite.
Other church leaders (and I’m not talking about Mars Hill, I’m talking about all the other Christians throughout the area): It is an embarrassment to the Church generally that the biggest entity to confront Driscoll is The Stranger. Come on, there’s thousands of churches, several Christian universities, even a couple of divinity schools for God’s sake – it’s time. Woman and man up and get rid of this guy. No more hand wringing.
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And finally…
Mark Driscoll: if you happen to be reading these posts late night or whenever, I encourage you to resign. If you haven’t figured it out yet, it’s completely gotten away from you. Sooner or later, it will all come crashing down, big time. Your excrutiatingly public working out of whatever sexual obsessions or problems you have (and yes, you really do have them if you think about sex as much as you talk about it) is ridiculous. This will catch up with you ultimately - you may be in your 50s or 60s, but it will happen. Reading this http://pastormark.tv/2012/01/31/10-refle… gives me a sense maybe you have some glimmers of self awareness. You are way too hardened up and it’s time to ease out. You should drop out, and start over doing something that sounds good, maybe some deep sea fishing, cross country motorcycling, body building, running a gym or machine shop – I mean this seriously. You are no pastor. Man up, it’s over, get out. You’re just running a program of enslavement lite. You're taking up way too much space, get over yourself.
Other church leaders (and I’m not talking about Mars Hill, I’m talking about all the other Christians throughout the area): It is an embarrassment to the Church generally that the biggest entity to confront Driscoll is The Stranger. Come on, there’s thousands of churches, several Christian universities, even a couple of divinity schools for God’s sake – it’s time. Woman and man up and get rid of this guy. No more hand wringing.
Mark Driscoll: if you happen to be reading these posts late night or whenever, I encourage you to resign. If you haven’t figured it out yet, it’s completely gotten away from you. Sooner or later, it will all come crashing down, big time. Your excrutiatingly public working out of whatever sexual obsessions or problems you have (and yes, you really do have them if you think about sex as much as you talk about it) is ridiculous. This will catch up with you ultimately - you may be in your 50s or 60s, but it will happen. Reading this http://pastormark.tv/2012/01/31/10-refle… gives me a sense maybe you have some glimmers of self awareness. You are way too hardened up and it’s time to ease out. You should drop out, and start over doing something that sounds good, maybe some deep sea fishing, cross country motorcycling, body building, running a gym or machine shop – I mean this seriously. You are no pastor. Man up, it’s over, get out. You’re just running a program of enslavement lite. You're taking up way too much space, get over yourself.
Other church leaders (and I’m not talking about Mars Hill, I’m talking about all the other Christians throughout the area): It is an embarrassment to the Church generally that the biggest entity to confront Driscoll is The Stranger. Come on, there’s thousands of churches, several Christian universities, even a couple of divinity schools for God’s sake – it’s time. Woman and man up and get rid of this guy. No more hand wringing.
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And finally…
Mark Driscoll: if you happen to be reading these posts late night or whenever, I encourage you to resign. If you haven’t figured it out yet, it’s completely gotten away from you. Sooner or later, it will all come crashing down, big time. Your excruciatingly public projections of your significant sexual obsessions and problems has just gotten really old. Sooner or later, you might be in your 50s or 60s, but you will flame out – the writing is so on the wall. Reading this http://pastormark.tv/2012/01/31/10-refle… gives me a sense maybe you have some glimmers of self awareness. You are way too hardened up and it’s time to ease out. You should drop out, and start over doing something that sounds good, maybe some deep sea fishing, cross country motorcycling, body building, running a gym or machine shop – I mean this seriously. You are no pastor. Man up, it’s over, get out. You’re just running a program of enslavement lite.
Other church leaders (and I’m not talking about Mars Hill, I’m talking about all the other Christians throughout the area): It is an embarrassment to the Church generally that the biggest entity to confront Driscoll is The Stranger. Come on, there’s thousands of churches, several Christian universities, even a couple of divinity schools for God’s sake – it’s time. Woman and man up and get rid of this guy. No more hand wringing.
Mark Driscoll: if you happen to be reading these posts late night or whenever, I encourage you to resign. If you haven’t figured it out yet, it’s completely gotten away from you. Sooner or later, it will all come crashing down, big time. Your excruciatingly public projections of your significant sexual obsessions and problems has just gotten really old. Sooner or later, you might be in your 50s or 60s, but you will flame out – the writing is so on the wall. Reading this http://pastormark.tv/2012/01/31/10-refle… gives me a sense maybe you have some glimmers of self awareness. You are way too hardened up and it’s time to ease out. You should drop out, and start over doing something that sounds good, maybe some deep sea fishing, cross country motorcycling, body building, running a gym or machine shop – I mean this seriously. You are no pastor. Man up, it’s over, get out. You’re just running a program of enslavement lite.
Other church leaders (and I’m not talking about Mars Hill, I’m talking about all the other Christians throughout the area): It is an embarrassment to the Church generally that the biggest entity to confront Driscoll is The Stranger. Come on, there’s thousands of churches, several Christian universities, even a couple of divinity schools for God’s sake – it’s time. Woman and man up and get rid of this guy. No more hand wringing.
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Disclosure: I am a member at Mars Hill Church.
This article speaks of actual events, of which I am familiar. However, this article also has a very hard slant, and I want to remind you that in every emotionally charged situation there are two sides to a story. Each side will want to portray themselves as completely faultless, and the other side as completely guilty.
Being familiar with the situation and some of the people involved, I want to encourage you that the pastors involved are not power-mongering in the least. I want to encourage you that they acted with wisdom, shepherding and leading out of hearts of love.
These men were not just sinning on their own, they were hurting multiple women. The church stepped in not just to try to love and pursue the lost sheep like Jesus, but to protect the rest of the flock as well.
For those of you that do not attend Mars Hill, that do not know the people involved, that have not talked with or gotten to know the pastors, I ask you to be cautious with your hearts. Do not simply take the word of people who would profit from the additional views brought by angry readers. Do not simply take the word of a witness that might have his own personal agenda.
If you are concerned, I invite you to visit a Mars Hill Church, find a pastor, and humbly let them know what you heard and what you're worried about. I'm sure they will welcome you and, though they may not share the exact details, I'm sure they will be able to provide a little more perspective.
This article speaks of actual events, of which I am familiar. However, this article also has a very hard slant, and I want to remind you that in every emotionally charged situation there are two sides to a story. Each side will want to portray themselves as completely faultless, and the other side as completely guilty.
Being familiar with the situation and some of the people involved, I want to encourage you that the pastors involved are not power-mongering in the least. I want to encourage you that they acted with wisdom, shepherding and leading out of hearts of love.
These men were not just sinning on their own, they were hurting multiple women. The church stepped in not just to try to love and pursue the lost sheep like Jesus, but to protect the rest of the flock as well.
For those of you that do not attend Mars Hill, that do not know the people involved, that have not talked with or gotten to know the pastors, I ask you to be cautious with your hearts. Do not simply take the word of people who would profit from the additional views brought by angry readers. Do not simply take the word of a witness that might have his own personal agenda.
If you are concerned, I invite you to visit a Mars Hill Church, find a pastor, and humbly let them know what you heard and what you're worried about. I'm sure they will welcome you and, though they may not share the exact details, I'm sure they will be able to provide a little more perspective.
217
Disclosure: I am a member at Mars Hill Church.
This article speaks of actual events, of which I am familiar. However, this article also has a very hard slant, and I want to remind you that in every emotionally charged situation there are two sides to a story. Each side will want to portray themselves as completely faultless, and the other side as completely guilty.
Being familiar with the situation and some of the people involved, I want to encourage you that the pastors involved are not power-mongering in the least. I want to encourage you that they acted with wisdom, shepherding and leading out of hearts of love.
These men were not just sinning on their own, they were hurting multiple women. The church stepped in not just to try to love and pursue the lost sheep like Jesus, but to protect the rest of the flock as well.
For those of you that do not attend Mars Hill, that do not know the people involved, that have not talked with or gotten to know the pastors, I ask you to be cautious with your hearts. Do not simply take the word of people who would profit from the additional views brought by angry readers. Do not simply take the word of a witness that might have his own personal agenda.
If you are concerned, I invite you to visit a Mars Hill Church, find a pastor, and humbly let them know what you heard and what you're worried about. I'm sure they will welcome you and, though they may not share the exact details, I'm sure they will be able to provide a little more perspective.
This article speaks of actual events, of which I am familiar. However, this article also has a very hard slant, and I want to remind you that in every emotionally charged situation there are two sides to a story. Each side will want to portray themselves as completely faultless, and the other side as completely guilty.
Being familiar with the situation and some of the people involved, I want to encourage you that the pastors involved are not power-mongering in the least. I want to encourage you that they acted with wisdom, shepherding and leading out of hearts of love.
These men were not just sinning on their own, they were hurting multiple women. The church stepped in not just to try to love and pursue the lost sheep like Jesus, but to protect the rest of the flock as well.
For those of you that do not attend Mars Hill, that do not know the people involved, that have not talked with or gotten to know the pastors, I ask you to be cautious with your hearts. Do not simply take the word of people who would profit from the additional views brought by angry readers. Do not simply take the word of a witness that might have his own personal agenda.
If you are concerned, I invite you to visit a Mars Hill Church, find a pastor, and humbly let them know what you heard and what you're worried about. I'm sure they will welcome you and, though they may not share the exact details, I'm sure they will be able to provide a little more perspective.
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And look, they're still talking shit about Andrew in the comment thread. I feel really bad for this guy. Andrew, God loves you - keep your chin up buddy.
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http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/lo…
The woman told police that she's had a relationship with Scratchley for nearly two years and knew him from drug treatment, according to the affidavit. The woman said that she and Scratchley had an intimate relationship and had used crack cocaine and other drugs together. She said that he "talked about sexual fantasies that he had about children and told her that he had sexually abused children in the past," the affidavit says.
The woman told police that she's had a relationship with Scratchley for nearly two years and knew him from drug treatment, according to the affidavit. The woman said that she and Scratchley had an intimate relationship and had used crack cocaine and other drugs together. She said that he "talked about sexual fantasies that he had about children and told her that he had sexually abused children in the past," the affidavit says.
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Um yea! dose the Catholic Church need to practice Safe Sexual Abuse? the question is "If you give a Catholic a Condom will they know what to do with it or what its for?"
I cant count the jokes. and I cant count the kids that will have unprotected sex?
Onward Christian soldier.
I cant count the jokes. and I cant count the kids that will have unprotected sex?
Onward Christian soldier.
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For the record, your header picture is way better than the one in Slate. And the article is more thoroughly developed. And it's more fun to say your name out loud than Ruth Graham's. Three for three. Congrats!
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My heart is saddened to read this. I believe at a story along these same lines should be done and made public about Youth With A Mission (YWAM).
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@Lance--MH
Hey man I am so so sorry that you had to go through something like this! I will be praying for you and your wife, congratulations by the way :)
I think it is a terrible thing for Christians to get so caught up with the law and the rules of doctrine. Our relationship with God is a relationship not a set of rules. The biggest part of who God is and what he does is love. God's love for you is not tied up in what any church says about you. I pray that you will find peace and rest in that love as he guides you into deeper revelation about who he is. Because truthfully no one has it totally figured out and some of us as a Church (Whole Church not just Mars Hill) are definitely way off because we have different views. Sorry this is actually longer than I wanted to make it.
Oh and if porn really does have a stronghold in your life it can be taken care of by focusing on beating it but that is a really really hard road. I would suggest you maybe check out something like the Sozo Ministry at Bethel Church in Redding, CA and see if that is something you are interested in.
All the best and may all the love of God rest upon you!
-Taylor
Hey man I am so so sorry that you had to go through something like this! I will be praying for you and your wife, congratulations by the way :)
I think it is a terrible thing for Christians to get so caught up with the law and the rules of doctrine. Our relationship with God is a relationship not a set of rules. The biggest part of who God is and what he does is love. God's love for you is not tied up in what any church says about you. I pray that you will find peace and rest in that love as he guides you into deeper revelation about who he is. Because truthfully no one has it totally figured out and some of us as a Church (Whole Church not just Mars Hill) are definitely way off because we have different views. Sorry this is actually longer than I wanted to make it.
Oh and if porn really does have a stronghold in your life it can be taken care of by focusing on beating it but that is a really really hard road. I would suggest you maybe check out something like the Sozo Ministry at Bethel Church in Redding, CA and see if that is something you are interested in.
All the best and may all the love of God rest upon you!
-Taylor
225
Ummm! Jesus was nailed to a cross and speared? He did not Die for you as much as he was sent by God for the purpose of? look it up.
I guess love could be considered as putting up with bone head ignorance but don't be looking for Republicans to be getting a gold star from God soon.
Jesus wondered why God had forsaken Him and then Reflected and Asked For God to forgive us as we were just Ignorant bone heads who had no friggin Idea what we were doing? Republicans go way way way back I guess.
I guess love could be considered as putting up with bone head ignorance but don't be looking for Republicans to be getting a gold star from God soon.
Jesus wondered why God had forsaken Him and then Reflected and Asked For God to forgive us as we were just Ignorant bone heads who had no friggin Idea what we were doing? Republicans go way way way back I guess.
226
I wonder if it has been pointed out that how Calivin, of the famous Calvanism, ran his community and his protestant reform in much the same manner as Mars Hill's congregation is run. There was absolutely no privacy and one man ultimately had more authority then the holy scripture and the basic tenants of Christianity. These tenants, when espoused were twisted such that they would support the opinions of Calvin, or in this case, Driscoll.
227
This article is like a man on the street jumping into the middle of a symphony and telling the oboe player how to play his oboe .... like, dude, why do you care?
Brendan you have made it clear you hate this man and his church. Every point in the article highlight the most negative aspects.
What happened to journalistic integrity and being impartial? The axe that you have to grind is so obvious. LOL
Brendan you have made it clear you hate this man and his church. Every point in the article highlight the most negative aspects.
What happened to journalistic integrity and being impartial? The axe that you have to grind is so obvious. LOL
228
I was open to this church...any Christian-based church that wants to help people okay by me. But I have watched my brother and his wife become "stepford people" after joining. To the point that when my mother was dying, they constantly harassed this Catholic woman - trying to make sure she - a wonderful wife, mother and human being - knew the right "Jesus!" She had to ask hospice nurses and the rest of us to keep this crap from driving her nuts with their constant pushing... I have watched my brother start thinking because he is a "man" his opinion counts more than any woman's...and he wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed to start. This definitely is a cult and I am not alone in this - my sister in laws family, mine and everyone we know have watched the strange obsessive behavior. We have watched this Mark Driscoll's lectures on the internet.... and researched everything we could. Scary stuff. I was impartial - but now worry...DON'T DRINK THE KOOLAID!!!
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This sounds an awful lot like Watchtower Cultism to me. Jehovah's Witnesses run the same gauntlet.
230
If there was a god, I hope he burns that place to the ground. People worry about radical Islamists. These guys are 10x crazier.
231
Radical Islamist's? all you have to do is stop screwing around in the middle east and stop burning Korans and those jokers will lay down.
Republicans are our worry as they want to make damned sure we are close enough to the middle east we cant fart without pissing off someone in the middle east?
good thing there is no connections between crazy Churches and crazy Republicans huh?
Republicans are our worry as they want to make damned sure we are close enough to the middle east we cant fart without pissing off someone in the middle east?
good thing there is no connections between crazy Churches and crazy Republicans huh?
232
Uh, guys, I read and like the Stranger, but I think he may have gotten this one wrong.... http://santitafarella.wordpress.com/2012…
233
http://santitafarella.wordpress.com/2012…
Check this out. Mars Hill has made mistakes in the past. Andrew is not one of them.
Check this out. Mars Hill has made mistakes in the past. Andrew is not one of them.
234
Brenden, you are VERY lazy using your journalistic skills, especially the way you refer to Mark's sermon on the Woman = Garden, Men = Gardener part. You left out a WHOLE TON of material, and tried to break it down into your own biased, negative view. He says many times after saying that she is like the Garden, but the man is to love, and cherish and nuture the wife. He is NOT the boss (as Mark says MANY times) He says you cannot just stand back and yell at her, or give demands to her, or pass judgement's regarding her, you need to love her like Christ loved the Church. You need to take responsibility like Jesus took responsibility. You need to honor her and cherish her and nourish her. He also says that it DOESN'T mean that MEN are over WOMEN, and he says that the bible says this over and over throughout.
That's just a little bit of what he said, and if you just leave it where you did, "She is the Garden, if you don't like the way she is, you are the Gardener"....that sounds bad, and it's out of context, and yeah, it supports your biased negative view of your whole article.
Where are the journalists that used to actually REPORT fairly and unbiasedly? If you want to say this is your opinion, fine, but saying you tried to contact MH church members but never got much of a reply from them, then I call BS on that. You didn't contact me. What did you do to try to find actual members? How did you contact them? Did you try to call from an unlisted number (how did you get their number to start with) but if you called me with an unlisted number, I would ignore you. If you left a message, and explained who you were and what you were looking for, I would have called you back, but since I wouldn't support your obviously biased views, unless you could take something I said out of context as you did Mark Driscoll's comments, then I implore you people (who don't already just HATE Christians already as Brendan was hoping would read his tripe and his article would get more attention than it deserves since it is full of half-truths and lies (by omission of actual facts that may refute his biased view). You are the epitome of the reason people just are tired of dealing with journalists that are lazy like you. You are no Journalist, you are simply just a guy who has been given a forum to spew your dogma into a medium in the "Least Churched" city in the United States, where your views, as skewed as they are, are the NORM, so it's EASY to stir up others just like yourself.
If you want the truth, I have found that it's best to do your OWN investigating, if you really are interested because Journalists, both sides, are LAZY, and won't do what it takes or do the actual hard work to get the story straight and find representatives on BOTH sides that are not ANONYMOUS (because we are not dealing with Government THUGS or Mafia families that could KILL you for coming forward) sources, but sources that will come forward and have the GUTS to say "Yeah, that's what I said, and this is proof and/or confirmation of what I said. You mentioned papers or so called "Disciplinary" documents, yet you didn't produce them, you just said they existed, quoting an unnamed source, and we are supposed to take your word as gospel. Sorry, I am not drinking YOUR Kool-aid as most posters seem to be on this site.
More...
That's just a little bit of what he said, and if you just leave it where you did, "She is the Garden, if you don't like the way she is, you are the Gardener"....that sounds bad, and it's out of context, and yeah, it supports your biased negative view of your whole article.
Where are the journalists that used to actually REPORT fairly and unbiasedly? If you want to say this is your opinion, fine, but saying you tried to contact MH church members but never got much of a reply from them, then I call BS on that. You didn't contact me. What did you do to try to find actual members? How did you contact them? Did you try to call from an unlisted number (how did you get their number to start with) but if you called me with an unlisted number, I would ignore you. If you left a message, and explained who you were and what you were looking for, I would have called you back, but since I wouldn't support your obviously biased views, unless you could take something I said out of context as you did Mark Driscoll's comments, then I implore you people (who don't already just HATE Christians already as Brendan was hoping would read his tripe and his article would get more attention than it deserves since it is full of half-truths and lies (by omission of actual facts that may refute his biased view). You are the epitome of the reason people just are tired of dealing with journalists that are lazy like you. You are no Journalist, you are simply just a guy who has been given a forum to spew your dogma into a medium in the "Least Churched" city in the United States, where your views, as skewed as they are, are the NORM, so it's EASY to stir up others just like yourself.
If you want the truth, I have found that it's best to do your OWN investigating, if you really are interested because Journalists, both sides, are LAZY, and won't do what it takes or do the actual hard work to get the story straight and find representatives on BOTH sides that are not ANONYMOUS (because we are not dealing with Government THUGS or Mafia families that could KILL you for coming forward) sources, but sources that will come forward and have the GUTS to say "Yeah, that's what I said, and this is proof and/or confirmation of what I said. You mentioned papers or so called "Disciplinary" documents, yet you didn't produce them, you just said they existed, quoting an unnamed source, and we are supposed to take your word as gospel. Sorry, I am not drinking YOUR Kool-aid as most posters seem to be on this site.
235
I have been going to Mars Hill for 3 years and am currently in the process of becoming a member there. For those who know the bible well also know that the way things are being done in Mars Hill are biblical. I dont see any bible verses backing up your article in your disagreements. I was not forced to become a member or stop going. I chose to become a member. Community groups have been nothing but a blessing and its sad that you are bashing the name of a church just because you and several others (amoung THOUSANDS attenders) had a bad experience. If you dont like a church, feel free to leave! This church helps so many hurting people and brings people to christ. People from out of state are moving here just to attend his services because the power of the holy spirit heals and changes hearts. Apparently your not one of those people but that also doesnt mean you can take a dump on Mars Hill.
236
2 234l Your desperation cries out loud and clear, my friend. I've waited YEARS for The Stranger to start taking on Mars Hill, and Brendan did a fine job. There are more examples in this article than in MANY human-interest type pieces, and why should I take YOUR word that Brendan didn't try to contact Mars Hill? He put quotes by several former members or pastors in the article, from people who "still admire Driscoll" to people who obviously don't.
I have a degree in journalism and certainly know shoddy reporting when I see it. This piece is even-handed, draws from a variety of sources, and is completely relevant to all the good people of Seattle who have a vested interest in knowing about what's going on in their community, which has long been a region of free expression in a pretty conservative country. He, you, and all members and leaders at Mars Hill should be able to respond with more honesty and integrity to genuine investigation and questions about what you practice and believe.
Mars Hill isn't being "persecuted" because people hate Christians--Mars Hill is experiencing a pushback from good, decent, moral people who disagree ethically and philosophically with what MH teaches and stands for. Being a religious institution doesn't give you a free pass from criticism, and being a religious institution also does not mean--perhaps more importantly, given certain Bible verses about persecution--that all criticism is hateful or all questions "sinful." It's what decent people do when they fear something is going amiss in their midst and desire more information, and an explanation from those who concern them.
I have a degree in journalism and certainly know shoddy reporting when I see it. This piece is even-handed, draws from a variety of sources, and is completely relevant to all the good people of Seattle who have a vested interest in knowing about what's going on in their community, which has long been a region of free expression in a pretty conservative country. He, you, and all members and leaders at Mars Hill should be able to respond with more honesty and integrity to genuine investigation and questions about what you practice and believe.
Mars Hill isn't being "persecuted" because people hate Christians--Mars Hill is experiencing a pushback from good, decent, moral people who disagree ethically and philosophically with what MH teaches and stands for. Being a religious institution doesn't give you a free pass from criticism, and being a religious institution also does not mean--perhaps more importantly, given certain Bible verses about persecution--that all criticism is hateful or all questions "sinful." It's what decent people do when they fear something is going amiss in their midst and desire more information, and an explanation from those who concern them.
237
My response: My heart is grieved as I read the many opinions given here from both directions--pain, anger, defensiveness, accusations, pride, twisted doctrine....It sounds just like the 1st Century culture of "Jews & Gentiles, Men & Women, slaves & free" that Jesus walked among, loved, cried over and died for that they could all be "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28). Yes, the ground is level at the cross -- may this Easter bring forgiveness and grace as we focus on the victory over sin & death as we celebrate Christ's resurrection and our redemption. On 3/28 this will be my prayer for MH, M&G, & Seattle -- (MD-I knew you before MH when I lived in Windermere)
238
Very interesting article. I have had my suspicions about MH, and am familiar with cult-like behavior. My family is in a cult in Nashville- Remnant Fellowship. Same authoritative abuse. Google it...it's scary, at least MH is not based on how skinny you are. RF also preaches that men are the authority, yet their "leader" is a woman.
239
I have listened to Mark for years. Perfect? No not at all. One that wants to point to Jesus? I beliew so. He also has been gifted with natural leadership ability that is compelling. I do not find you compelling at all. The team your looking for are any and all of those who have ever been offended by someone in authority. Those are the easiest to recruite so I am sure you will have no trouble finding them. BUt the help and awareness you pretend your bringing is laughable. Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill. Did you really write a whole article on two people that had their feelings hurt because they where confronted? They where not even confronted by Driscoll. Maybe they where confronted well maybe they where not. Do you realize there are some 15,000 people that go to Mars hill? Do you think that if you had a 15,000 member family someone in the family might be angry because one of there uncle's disagreed with them from a conviction that thought a better route for them could be found? Why don't you search for truth in writing your article rather than a tasty morsal of lies? Oh yeah, no one would read it. Do what you do I guess. Carry on Carry on. The Truth of us all will be known one day.
240
I find it funny that you people waste your time talking about how "evil" Mars Hill is. It's really easy to point out how sinful another church is, while all of you are just making criticisms toward others, and not looking into your own heart. I've read Doctrine, there is nothing wrong with the book. Also, why he points toward men is because that for a while now, women have dominated the church, so he points some of his sermons toward men so they can rise and and lead their families and their churches. But my point is, commenting about the sins of a particular church on a blog online won't do anyone any good. Why don't you guys stop wasting your time and go plant a church for yourself if you don't like it.
241
Response To Controversy of Mars Hill and Pastor Mark Discoll!
Any church that tries to have real love and hold people accountable for their sin like Matthew 18:15-20 and 1 Corinthians 5 will be called a cult in our culture of individualism, biblical liberalism and doubt concerning the bible and the historic Christ.
Matthew 18: 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
1 Corinthians 5
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d]
1 Timothy 1:20
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
I commend Pastor Mark Driscoll one of the few pastors that really seems to understand and guard what appears so evidently to be New Testament Christianity and the mind of Paul and how he structured the churches and the level of commitment the new disciples had to each other and their leaders (as long as everything the leaders said was within their scriptural authority).
Hebrews 13:17
Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.
Most pastors are feeling the pressure of the culture to maintain low standards of membership, teach a watered down gospel & discipleship, to change Worship Services to Seeker Services that mainly deal with self empowerment, to avoid confrontation of sin, and have weak, untaught elders and deacons who dont protect the church from wolves who sneak in and challenge the Word of God. read what Paul told the Elders\Pastor of Ephesus:
Acts 20:28-35
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.[b] 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
There is a liberal approach to the Pastoral Epistles as if those instructions dont apply to New testament churches of today. The minute a pastor exercises any discipline or authority as Paul commanded Timothy and Titus to exert they will be referred to as a cult leader or like Jim Jones. Pastors are afraid of the backlash & to be sued. They are like parents who are afraid of their kids or them calling social service on them.
1 Timothy 4: 11 Command and teach these things. 12 Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity.
1 Timothy 6:17
Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.
Matthew 28:20
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Usually behind the criticisms are unjustified half truths and distortions of what was really said and done. That is why Paul wrote:
1 Timothy 5: 19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses.
Notice he doesnt say investigate an accusation. Dont even entertain it. People need to prove their accusation. They need to show proof, documentation, present a video and then show from the Bible how the Elder\Pastor was wrong.
Or else you have chaos. You people getting mad at Pastors for doing something wrong that the Bible encourages them to do. Talk about confusion and anarchy.
Usually these accusers, not always dont have scriptural proof based on all that the New Testament teaches, but they have cultural and personal appeals of what the job description of the Pastor\Elder should be.
Even if you challenge them to examine the scriptures like the Bereans they refuse. They demonstrate how un-noble they are.
Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
There is a refusal to look at scripture and see what it says about a given issue. How scripture defines humanity, role of government, church, men and women. All people want to embrace is the loving version of Jesus that doesnt call into discipleship and new community of love, loyalty and submission to the Word of God over essential moral matters. What is the pastor supposed to do when the Bible tells him there is a way like a basketball team the church is supposed to function. If they dont try to get it that way, then God will discipline them.
1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
We see in scripture there is freedom to disagree over secondary issues and cultural preferences of food, music and styles of having church.
Roman 14: 1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters.
Romans 14:
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
But we have no option to change the essential doctrines and practices of the Christian life.One of those doctrines are the role and authority of a pastor and the way we respond to sin.
1 Timothy 6
These are the things you are to teach and insist on. 3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions
2 Timothy 1:13
What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus
They are not negotiable if we come under the Lordship of Christ.If we dont like the Bible and disagree with it's ethical demands we have the option of walking away with it.
But we have no right to sue the NBA or basketball league for have a technical foul penalty or to be able to kick us out of a game if we cuss out the referee or start a fight in the game.
The made up the sport, set the standards and gave authority to certain people called coaches, managers and referees to govern, enforce and discipline according to the rules established by the owner.
The owner of the church is Jesus Christ. He appoints leaders to equip and train in His Word and Spiritual life. Everything flows from the Lordship of Christ.
Ephesians 4: 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Be careful how interpret the issues happening in our churches and with pastors. You maybe on the wrong side of the camp. That is why we must remain objective and compare all teachings and actions with scripture. The Bible is our guide so the more you know it and understand it, the more clearly you will be able to see the truth and understand God's WIll!
Romans 12; 1Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is —his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Pray for Mark Driscoll, pray for your pastor, pray for the international Body of Christ. Churches and their leaders are being attacked from every angle. We need to have the armor on as Paul taught and pray. Prayer is the last and greatest weapon. Read
Ephesians 6: 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.
God bless you!
Sincerely In Christ
Pastor Jack
Impact Miami Church
http://impactmiami.org
More...
Any church that tries to have real love and hold people accountable for their sin like Matthew 18:15-20 and 1 Corinthians 5 will be called a cult in our culture of individualism, biblical liberalism and doubt concerning the bible and the historic Christ.
Matthew 18: 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
1 Corinthians 5
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d]
1 Timothy 1:20
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
I commend Pastor Mark Driscoll one of the few pastors that really seems to understand and guard what appears so evidently to be New Testament Christianity and the mind of Paul and how he structured the churches and the level of commitment the new disciples had to each other and their leaders (as long as everything the leaders said was within their scriptural authority).
Hebrews 13:17
Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.
Most pastors are feeling the pressure of the culture to maintain low standards of membership, teach a watered down gospel & discipleship, to change Worship Services to Seeker Services that mainly deal with self empowerment, to avoid confrontation of sin, and have weak, untaught elders and deacons who dont protect the church from wolves who sneak in and challenge the Word of God. read what Paul told the Elders\Pastor of Ephesus:
Acts 20:28-35
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.[b] 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
There is a liberal approach to the Pastoral Epistles as if those instructions dont apply to New testament churches of today. The minute a pastor exercises any discipline or authority as Paul commanded Timothy and Titus to exert they will be referred to as a cult leader or like Jim Jones. Pastors are afraid of the backlash & to be sued. They are like parents who are afraid of their kids or them calling social service on them.
1 Timothy 4: 11 Command and teach these things. 12 Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity.
1 Timothy 6:17
Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.
Matthew 28:20
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Usually behind the criticisms are unjustified half truths and distortions of what was really said and done. That is why Paul wrote:
1 Timothy 5: 19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses.
Notice he doesnt say investigate an accusation. Dont even entertain it. People need to prove their accusation. They need to show proof, documentation, present a video and then show from the Bible how the Elder\Pastor was wrong.
Or else you have chaos. You people getting mad at Pastors for doing something wrong that the Bible encourages them to do. Talk about confusion and anarchy.
Usually these accusers, not always dont have scriptural proof based on all that the New Testament teaches, but they have cultural and personal appeals of what the job description of the Pastor\Elder should be.
Even if you challenge them to examine the scriptures like the Bereans they refuse. They demonstrate how un-noble they are.
Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
There is a refusal to look at scripture and see what it says about a given issue. How scripture defines humanity, role of government, church, men and women. All people want to embrace is the loving version of Jesus that doesnt call into discipleship and new community of love, loyalty and submission to the Word of God over essential moral matters. What is the pastor supposed to do when the Bible tells him there is a way like a basketball team the church is supposed to function. If they dont try to get it that way, then God will discipline them.
1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
We see in scripture there is freedom to disagree over secondary issues and cultural preferences of food, music and styles of having church.
Roman 14: 1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters.
Romans 14:
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
But we have no option to change the essential doctrines and practices of the Christian life.One of those doctrines are the role and authority of a pastor and the way we respond to sin.
1 Timothy 6
These are the things you are to teach and insist on. 3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions
2 Timothy 1:13
What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus
They are not negotiable if we come under the Lordship of Christ.If we dont like the Bible and disagree with it's ethical demands we have the option of walking away with it.
But we have no right to sue the NBA or basketball league for have a technical foul penalty or to be able to kick us out of a game if we cuss out the referee or start a fight in the game.
The made up the sport, set the standards and gave authority to certain people called coaches, managers and referees to govern, enforce and discipline according to the rules established by the owner.
The owner of the church is Jesus Christ. He appoints leaders to equip and train in His Word and Spiritual life. Everything flows from the Lordship of Christ.
Ephesians 4: 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Be careful how interpret the issues happening in our churches and with pastors. You maybe on the wrong side of the camp. That is why we must remain objective and compare all teachings and actions with scripture. The Bible is our guide so the more you know it and understand it, the more clearly you will be able to see the truth and understand God's WIll!
Romans 12; 1Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is —his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Pray for Mark Driscoll, pray for your pastor, pray for the international Body of Christ. Churches and their leaders are being attacked from every angle. We need to have the armor on as Paul taught and pray. Prayer is the last and greatest weapon. Read
Ephesians 6: 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.
God bless you!
Sincerely In Christ
Pastor Jack
Impact Miami Church
http://impactmiami.org
242
I read an interview about Mark Driscoll from some New york paper... and I busted out laughing... He was telling the reported how he grew up in such a rough area... (I went to school with him and I can't think of anything that would categorize Burien as a rough area back at that time. We grew up in a White washed suburban area. When we went to elementary school, there wasn't even any racial diversity, I think there were two people of asian descent in our class and one black person who was two years older, other than that we lived in a sea of white Middle class families... by the time we reached high school, there was a little more cultural diversity, but not much. We still lived in a very sheltered safe environment. I still live here and while it has changed drastically with population booms and many different ethnicities now, I still don't consider the area as "rough"
I think Mark is just a con man, lets start a church so we can take the congregations money and we don't have to pay taxes on it because we're a church... Where else can you travel all over the world do whatever you want, dictate what others need to do and lord over women without having a real job or going to jail... He needs to come back to reality.
I think Mark is just a con man, lets start a church so we can take the congregations money and we don't have to pay taxes on it because we're a church... Where else can you travel all over the world do whatever you want, dictate what others need to do and lord over women without having a real job or going to jail... He needs to come back to reality.
243
Can someone tell me where Lief Moi is and what happened to him, why he is no longer at Mars Hill?
244
I have nothing good to say about Mars Hill, but there are other Seattle-area churches that are far more cult-like.
see: http://www.yelp.com/biz/emmanuel-reforme…
see: http://www.yelp.com/biz/emmanuel-reforme…
245
Wow, that's a disturbing read--does anyone think Jesus would domineer and brow-beat people like that? What should anyone expect to find at Mars Hill--grace, compassion, understanding, personal meaning, or humanness--but is that for 'wusses'? The more I read and watch Driscoll's sermons, the more I see a focus on "doctrine", that is simply one perspective on scripture. Church has become like a passive TV show, where people sit, get "fed" by doctrine, and believe it will somehow work its way into their lives. It certainly does have its effect--it makes people passive, gullible, indoctrinated, and starved of their souls--the very place God wants to touch us. Don't check out at the door of a church--go where you'll engage your heart and mind, where people listen as much as talk. God doesn't expect the conversation to be one-way.
246
Only a matter of time till these guys are caught in the airport bathroom doing drugs off a hookers *ss, like the rest of them.
247
I am a believer, to be sure, but I like following the examples of Jesus, Mother Teresa, Amy Carmichael and Dorothy Day...just love whenever, wherever and whomever and let God do the rest.
This is sad and a distortion of the gospels. The leadership at Mars Hill needs to look closely at what Jesus said about authority. I think they will find it has little to do with submission and more to do with serving.
This is sad and a distortion of the gospels. The leadership at Mars Hill needs to look closely at what Jesus said about authority. I think they will find it has little to do with submission and more to do with serving.
248
I rented a room to a young college student who seemed very devoted to his church, very polite and respectful. He kept inviting me to his church even though he knew I was very active in my own. Things started not going well over the months and ultimately I asked him to leave. When I realized that he attended the Mars Hill Church it explained a lot of his attitude including his extremely judgmental accusations the last few weeks he was in my home. After reading this article I understand things a lot better. Thank you.
249
John 14:6 "I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." nuff said.
250
The interesting aspect of articles of this nature is that, despite your best attempts, you revealed that minute seed of puritanical christianity in all of us. You wrote the article with a hint of disdain, dare I say, that so oft Seattle tongue in cheek, too cool for school, veiled hipsterism!
The reality of religion is that they are all cults....Most have, or are willing to, at minimum, ostracize or, at worst, kill for the name of their god. The article was a good expose, but to what ends does it really serve outside of dissemination of information?
The reality of religion is that they are all cults....Most have, or are willing to, at minimum, ostracize or, at worst, kill for the name of their god. The article was a good expose, but to what ends does it really serve outside of dissemination of information?
251
I think it important to say that I have never attended mars hill church I have seen alot of online sermons and I find know felt in them all you Christians a kingdom divide will not stand (mat 12-25)
as for the remarks of becoming a full member going up all cultures have rights of passage and submitting to leader ship is biblical (fellow me as I fellow Christ cor 1.11) all church are by differentiation a cult does not mean that they are bad
on the note of his stand stand of woman play a support roll in the household he him self and I quot "if you have to pull out all the obey me verse's your not change are your not being to submissive your self"(eph 5 21) submit to one another out of referents to Christ
I could go on forever OK guys have fun in your closed heart judging other and talk about people in stand of make your questions known so that he person can correct it may God have mercy you no that hole judge not less you be judged one of the most well known bible qouts (matt 7:1)
as for the remarks of becoming a full member going up all cultures have rights of passage and submitting to leader ship is biblical (fellow me as I fellow Christ cor 1.11) all church are by differentiation a cult does not mean that they are bad
on the note of his stand stand of woman play a support roll in the household he him self and I quot "if you have to pull out all the obey me verse's your not change are your not being to submissive your self"(eph 5 21) submit to one another out of referents to Christ
I could go on forever OK guys have fun in your closed heart judging other and talk about people in stand of make your questions known so that he person can correct it may God have mercy you no that hole judge not less you be judged one of the most well known bible qouts (matt 7:1)
253
You make some very interesting points about distinguishing what real Christianity is within a world off cults. There are some more aspects to this question which you might find helpful for your work as well at http://alivewithchrist.com/isyourchurchp…. Thanks for sharing!
254
I don't think a single person on here has the right to say a thing until you experience the church for yourself. EVERY church has people who turn away. We are all different and unique with an individualized character and story. There will always be a voice and act of rebellion. For everything under the sun. You are NOT forced to join/sign/attend/donate or become apart of anything. Its your personal choice to decide if you want to become a member, or go to a community group, however you want to get involved, its all voluntary. Ive been going to MH on and off for years and it's always the most amazing spiritual experience. Went to a community group a couple times, never forced to come back or get further involved into membership or anything like that, just encouraged to be more involved with Jesus and his word. Nothing more. I know the devil is on the hunt to enhance, expose and dramatically emphasize any sort of negativity that has to do with God. Especially when a rather large, successful church comes along, with a pastor who has helped bring many people to Jesus, of course the church is going to be attacked! Its a perfect target to get people to turn away and change there thoughts not only on MH but for all churches, christian churches, Christianity and God and Jesus alone. and this is what the Devil wants and seeks. So this is no surprise. But only very upsetting to see all these people who haven't even been to MH or have and have turned away form a bad experience, say these and support the evil and fabrications that come along with it. my question ( and why are all the comments that support the church or even just in between hidden from view? wheres the fair justice in that? are'nt you exposing the truth? or are we manipulating it into something it's not so we can have an unbalance 'article'? I question the spirituality of the writer for this article and the spiritual standpoint of the people who run The Stranger )
More...
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I charge that it is more unjust for you to criticize a God-fearing man with circumstantial evidence that is not even biblically based. How can you judge a pastor on Christian practices based on the standards put forth by an un-Christian culture? Hebrews 13:17 says to obey your leaders fore they are watching over your souls. The reality of Mars Hill Church is that they are a God-fearing church and spread the gospel. The truth is, Jesus came and gave himself.
He says in 2 Chronicles 7:14 that if you turn from your wicked ways and repent that he will forgive your sins.
If that isn't absolutely amazing to you, you're missing something. The God that created everything you have ever seen has had the patience to not kill you the second you turned against him and the mercy to come and say, hey son/ hey daughter, I know you messed up, but I forgive you. I love you and want you back with me, so I forgive you. And I want you to live with me back in Heaven.
That is the amazing thing that so many have denied.
He says in 2 Chronicles 7:14 that if you turn from your wicked ways and repent that he will forgive your sins.
If that isn't absolutely amazing to you, you're missing something. The God that created everything you have ever seen has had the patience to not kill you the second you turned against him and the mercy to come and say, hey son/ hey daughter, I know you messed up, but I forgive you. I love you and want you back with me, so I forgive you. And I want you to live with me back in Heaven.
That is the amazing thing that so many have denied.
256
I just read this and i have to say, I HAVE MORE RESPECT FOR MARK, He really is a man of God and is not becoming like the other churches that allow immorality and preach what people want to hear all the time (which is why i think people don't like him so much, he tells and does what the word of God says not what will make us happy). The bible does talk about kicking the person who wont repent out so their sin and rebellion won't corrupt God' children, i could go on...but thanks for writing this :)
257
I like Mark Driscoll...often I research a certain issue ...like the other day I prayed for answers surrounding a certain subject and I knew in my heart which answer which teacher had the correct understanding and thereby correct teaching of the subject. ..To put anyone on such a high post of command is wrong and I personally don't favor Paul's teachings nor do I spen too much time on Romans doctrine. ..To say you must be a member of anything other than that of Christ is ridiculous. ..I pray for the understandings as needed and once things become complicated I lose interest. ..not to say I wont turn to mark driscoll again whenever my heart is in need of answers but i certainly wouldn't bond myself to one church one teacher one way one and only look to no one else. ..Christ...I doubt had clubs where that person was allowed and not these people. ..only when you lead others towards satan does Christ have a serious problem with you...but to get fired because you think too much power resides in the hands of a few is just retarded. ..of course power shouldn't reside in the hands of a few. ..but what power are we talking about here. ..power to teach. ..power to decide what is taught power to decide who is teaching. ..if those are issues. ..then Christ isn't residing among that church much at all. .I know this article is old but a good rule i follow is...Christ is easy and when things are complicated it's time to rewind and find ...Christs easy path. ..yes sometimes that means firing complicated people.
258
Such a terrifying thought, to know that a group of people, and a growing group of people carry such power over others. It has little to do with salvation, rather than control. This is spiritual abuse.
259
Such a terrifying thought, to know that a group of people, and a growing group of people carry such power over others. It has little to do with salvation, rather than control. And manipulation. It's either their way, or the highway-and by highway, if you aren't with us, then you are against us. We will destroy your family, your children, and turn all that matters against you, because WE think you are on the wrong path. And that wrong path is only that you disagree with the doctrine or methods. This is spiritual abuse.
260
Is anyone surprised he contradicts himself all the time and flat out lies. For example in contradiction to other sermons he said that anyone who believes in free will is a humanist. He also has been known to say gays are damned by God. He later denies this even know it's recorded and when it's questioned the whistle blowers are shunned.
261
Marc D is in it for the $. He's using Christs sacrifice for Marc's own gain + he doesn't have to pay taxes! A very shrewd LITTLE man. Maybe someday I will meet him down an alley and beat his stupid dumb a$$! STOP BUYING the KOOL AID FOLKS! KOO KOO! I feel for his family and his wife. I'd hate to live under his roof-god-what a night mare! Marshill gone wild!
263
The "line" between a cult and a church isn't really a line, more of a spectrum.
My favorite way of telling which side of the line a group is on is the Advanced Bonewits Cult Danger Evaluation Frame (ABCDEF):
http://www.unc.edu/~reddeer/tenets/abcde…
The idea is this: Rate some aspects of a group's behavior on a scale from 1-10, and get a score from 18 to 180. Typical organizations end up somewhere around 40, cultish organizations often score much higher than that.
And yes, by this definition, the church is cultish about a lot of things.
My favorite way of telling which side of the line a group is on is the Advanced Bonewits Cult Danger Evaluation Frame (ABCDEF):
http://www.unc.edu/~reddeer/tenets/abcde…
The idea is this: Rate some aspects of a group's behavior on a scale from 1-10, and get a score from 18 to 180. Typical organizations end up somewhere around 40, cultish organizations often score much higher than that.
And yes, by this definition, the church is cultish about a lot of things.
265
I am new to the site. The nearest Mars Hill to me is the new Orange County church.
I decided to look further after looking the church up in Wikipedia. I've printed one of Driscoll's sermons, but I might give it a second reading to see if what he says is accurate.
I have friends at the Orange County branch (a young married couple and their daughter). What I'm reading about the MH leadership structure is disturbing. I can't imagine any church with that much power invested in three or four people and exercising that much control over the congregation.
I decided to look further after looking the church up in Wikipedia. I've printed one of Driscoll's sermons, but I might give it a second reading to see if what he says is accurate.
I have friends at the Orange County branch (a young married couple and their daughter). What I'm reading about the MH leadership structure is disturbing. I can't imagine any church with that much power invested in three or four people and exercising that much control over the congregation.
266
I attend Mars Hill Church and I can see where the "cult" insinuation has some traction.
1) First, the name of the church just sounds weird and Driscoll has admitted the name of the church is something he would change if he could go back in time. It's not much better than "Heaven's Gate" or “Branch Davidians”.
2) Second, and much more ominously, Driscoll does seem to have an inordinate amount of influence and control. Many pastors have left and I'm not sure why they left but it troubles me. Rumors I have heard say that the mini-exodus over the years has had to do with disagreements over authority within the church and preaching opportunity. In some ways, it would seem if the name of the church were to going to be changed, an appropriate new name would be something like "Church Driscoll".
a) Francis Chan, rightly or wrongly, left the church he founded because he felt that his celebrity and influence had grown too large within his church. He said that he heard his own name more than he heard "Holy Spirit" (http://bit.ly/VINtMP). So, he left. He truly seems to strive after a Spirit-led church. Driscoll? I'm beginning to seriously wonder. While he says, "It's all about Jesus", his actions and the tone of the church are, for me, introducing some reservations about where his heart really is.
3) Another thing that makes me wonder about Driscoll and Mars Hill is something I don't know if anyone else at Mars Hill noticed, but, to me was pretty weird. It's one of those things that's small but makes you wonder. Here's the deal: we all know Driscoll is full of funny, cutesy little anecdotes. He’s certainly a talented speaker.
a) In the summer of 2012, in a sermon (http://bit.ly/SFOTKC), Driscoll tells a story about being in a Starbucks and some guy is sitting there cleaning his toenails. Driscoll saves the day by publicly shaming him. Har! Har! Ha. Fine. Humorous story. I chuckled a little.
b) Fast-forward a year to this past summer. In another sermon (http://bit.ly/18kTOsX), Driscoll tells a nearly identical story about being in a Starbucks and some girl is sitting there clipping her toenails. Driscoll saves the day (again) by publicly shaming her. Har! Har! Ha. But wait. What are the chances of something so ridiculously odd happening twice like that?
*** BTW, if you go to the link, pull up the transcript and then do a word search (Ctrl-F or Command-F) for "Starbucks" and it'll take you to the section of the sermon I'm referencing.
i) I mean...I'm in Starbucks all the time and I've never seen anything like that. Maybe Driscoll hangs out at weirder Starbucks than I do. It's possible, I suppose. But if it did really happen twice to him, wouldn't it be worth a mention in the second sermon to say something like, "I know this is too weird, but lightning sometimes strikes twice..."?
ii) So, it makes me wonder, seriously, whether or not he just made one or both of these stories up. If he did make them up, isn't that just really odd? Or arrogant? Or lazy? Why use “creative license” disguised as an authentic happening about something so lame? If he was making one or both of those stories up (aka, lying), then what else might he be making up? It definitely impacts his credibility with me.
4) Also, why doesn't Driscoll publish his income? We give money to the church. He leads the church. How much is going to the church and how much to him? Why should that be a secret? I've also heard rumor, though I haven't seen it in writing, that part of Driscoll's speaking engagement contract requires that he fly first class wherever he's going. If that's true, to me, that doesn't really agree with what I know about Christianity.
a) We don't read much about the luxury travel accommodations of Peter, Paul, or the apostles in the Bible as they made their missionary journeys. To the contrary, the Bible, in Luke 9:3 says, "Take nothing for your journey, no staff, nor bag, nor bread, nor money; and do not have two tunics." Flying first class doesn't really seem like it agrees with the spirit of Jesus' instructions here.
b) Couldn't the money saved between buying an economy ticket and a first class ticket be put to better use helping the poor, the sick, or the lonely or doing other good for the church versus allowing Mark Driscoll to jet-set in style eating off of fine china at 35,000 ft and getting comfy in his lie-flat bed while the dregs back in coach "suffer" for their lack of funding?
i) A quick check of the difference in fares between economy and first class shows how much money we're talking about. Seattle to Boston next month: more than a $1000 difference in roundtrip air fare. Seattle to London-Heathrow also next month: more than a $6000 difference in roundtrip air fare. That's a lot of money.
More...
1) First, the name of the church just sounds weird and Driscoll has admitted the name of the church is something he would change if he could go back in time. It's not much better than "Heaven's Gate" or “Branch Davidians”.
2) Second, and much more ominously, Driscoll does seem to have an inordinate amount of influence and control. Many pastors have left and I'm not sure why they left but it troubles me. Rumors I have heard say that the mini-exodus over the years has had to do with disagreements over authority within the church and preaching opportunity. In some ways, it would seem if the name of the church were to going to be changed, an appropriate new name would be something like "Church Driscoll".
a) Francis Chan, rightly or wrongly, left the church he founded because he felt that his celebrity and influence had grown too large within his church. He said that he heard his own name more than he heard "Holy Spirit" (http://bit.ly/VINtMP). So, he left. He truly seems to strive after a Spirit-led church. Driscoll? I'm beginning to seriously wonder. While he says, "It's all about Jesus", his actions and the tone of the church are, for me, introducing some reservations about where his heart really is.
3) Another thing that makes me wonder about Driscoll and Mars Hill is something I don't know if anyone else at Mars Hill noticed, but, to me was pretty weird. It's one of those things that's small but makes you wonder. Here's the deal: we all know Driscoll is full of funny, cutesy little anecdotes. He’s certainly a talented speaker.
a) In the summer of 2012, in a sermon (http://bit.ly/SFOTKC), Driscoll tells a story about being in a Starbucks and some guy is sitting there cleaning his toenails. Driscoll saves the day by publicly shaming him. Har! Har! Ha. Fine. Humorous story. I chuckled a little.
b) Fast-forward a year to this past summer. In another sermon (http://bit.ly/18kTOsX), Driscoll tells a nearly identical story about being in a Starbucks and some girl is sitting there clipping her toenails. Driscoll saves the day (again) by publicly shaming her. Har! Har! Ha. But wait. What are the chances of something so ridiculously odd happening twice like that?
*** BTW, if you go to the link, pull up the transcript and then do a word search (Ctrl-F or Command-F) for "Starbucks" and it'll take you to the section of the sermon I'm referencing.
i) I mean...I'm in Starbucks all the time and I've never seen anything like that. Maybe Driscoll hangs out at weirder Starbucks than I do. It's possible, I suppose. But if it did really happen twice to him, wouldn't it be worth a mention in the second sermon to say something like, "I know this is too weird, but lightning sometimes strikes twice..."?
ii) So, it makes me wonder, seriously, whether or not he just made one or both of these stories up. If he did make them up, isn't that just really odd? Or arrogant? Or lazy? Why use “creative license” disguised as an authentic happening about something so lame? If he was making one or both of those stories up (aka, lying), then what else might he be making up? It definitely impacts his credibility with me.
4) Also, why doesn't Driscoll publish his income? We give money to the church. He leads the church. How much is going to the church and how much to him? Why should that be a secret? I've also heard rumor, though I haven't seen it in writing, that part of Driscoll's speaking engagement contract requires that he fly first class wherever he's going. If that's true, to me, that doesn't really agree with what I know about Christianity.
a) We don't read much about the luxury travel accommodations of Peter, Paul, or the apostles in the Bible as they made their missionary journeys. To the contrary, the Bible, in Luke 9:3 says, "Take nothing for your journey, no staff, nor bag, nor bread, nor money; and do not have two tunics." Flying first class doesn't really seem like it agrees with the spirit of Jesus' instructions here.
b) Couldn't the money saved between buying an economy ticket and a first class ticket be put to better use helping the poor, the sick, or the lonely or doing other good for the church versus allowing Mark Driscoll to jet-set in style eating off of fine china at 35,000 ft and getting comfy in his lie-flat bed while the dregs back in coach "suffer" for their lack of funding?
i) A quick check of the difference in fares between economy and first class shows how much money we're talking about. Seattle to Boston next month: more than a $1000 difference in roundtrip air fare. Seattle to London-Heathrow also next month: more than a $6000 difference in roundtrip air fare. That's a lot of money.
267
@marshill sucks: I am a relative of Mark and can tell you from growing up around him and his Christian family, that he is absolutely NOT in it for the money and you sound completely ignorant to make accusations you know nothing about. You may not agree with the way he runs the church but his intentions are pure
268
@marshill sucks and many others who want to believe the worst in people: I am a relative of Mark and can tell you from growing up around him and his family from his youth, that he is absolutely NOT in it for the money and you sound completely ignorant to make accusations you know nothing about. You may not agree with the way he runs the church but his intentions are pure. The comment that he will be found snorting coke of someone's chest is completely laughable. He lives a life he believes in whole-heartedly and is not pretending to be anything he is not. If you don't agree, fine. But don't sit there and try to make him out to be a bad person because he is very far from that.
270
Interesting coverage. The reports and opinions I've read so far on this particular ministry have been solely within the Christian community. It's useful to get a perspective from outside the church on this.
272
Mars Hill is not definitive of what being a Christian is. Most 20th/21st century "johnny-come-lately" megachurches are not. If you're going to attend a Christian church it's best to attend one that has been around a very long time and whose tradition is truly based on Scripture and Sacred Tradition: that is one advantage that church like the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican and Lutheran churches have.
273
I accidentally found this article and found it informing and true as to bondage churches which kick you out when you disagree with leadership. The thing that confused me was the comment about the "gay child, etc." at the mars hills playgrounds??? What place does that belief or comment have with people of GOD? We who are born again know children who think themselves "gay" need deliverance first, and lots of CHRIST Love and compassion after that. Not concern that they wouldn't fit in with other children on a playground. You lost me with that comment so I'm signing off your website....
274
What is the difference between Mark Driscoll and Fred Phelps? They are both into the church fully controlling people's lives and telling the rest of the community they are wrong for not following their specific doctrine. They easily use the Bible to manipulate people and hate. Hiding behind the guise of being alternative only makes Mars Hill worse. At least the Westboro Baptist Church does hide behind anyone. WBC might be just as brainwashed, but they are forthcoming with their hate. This is really sad.
275
@youdontknow. Just because someone believes they lead a good life, doesn't mean they do. I believe Jim Jones believed he lead a good life and I think Driscoll's church is one Sunday away from the Kool-Aid. This is the same stuff Jonestown was about. It is fairly hypocritical that we cannot be judgmental about Driscoll when his entire church is based in judging others. I feel bad for you that you had to grow up with him.
276
It seems any church large or small can fall into this kind of distorted leadership. The pastor has a "vision" and everyone is supposed to accept it without questioning and get behind him. Pastors use membership to "grow" and control their congregation. In their attempt to gain members, they harp on various themes around membership (or discipleship and service within the congregation) until they barely ever expound on any scriptures. Often the pulpit teaching has little substance about helping any unbeliever to come to faith.
277
I believe church leadership should know the people in their church.. But whats with this membership thing??? Its not a club??? When we get born again we are all Members of the christian family. ONE God, one mind, one leader, the Holy Spirit. We have the DNA of our creator so we have his character... We are suppose to be forgiving so we get forgiven, be light to defeat darkness and Love each other and be in peace with each other to show the world who Christ is???? Right.. Yes we need to stand up for the Truth the bible teaches but WE are not the Judge. Lets quit demanding holiness from sinners and when they don't measure up kick them out... That's stupid, Our hearts should be broken that the devil has fooled them into a destructive lifestyle..How about praying for the lost with a broken heart and ask God to reveal the truth to them and Love them like we are suppose to. Everyones a member everyone should have a ministry everyone answers to God first....Anyway common sense should dictate...
278
Hello religious sheep of planet Mars Hill! You have all been duped, once again by a narcissist who loves his own talking, talking, talking...all BS! Talking week in and week out about how much each of you programmed slaves need to believe so much trash..Regardless of whether or not your religion is "truth" this church is a complete lie and a manipulative force in your life. You are weak, and you need to break away from this lunatic or you will know much more misery, confusion, and sadness. Good luck with your cult!
279
Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.
Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
The group/leader is always right.
The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.
Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supersede any personal goals or individual interests.
A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
More...
Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
The group/leader is always right.
The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.
Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supersede any personal goals or individual interests.
A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
280
I feel sorry and I apologize for any hurt you and or anyone else has experienced. I am no member of this church, but I am certain they are no where near a "cult". Anger, pain, hurt, and all these feelings are normal, but the manner at which we channel them is something to be considered. Writing a blog/article based on those emotions and throwing strong accusations of being a "cult" is pretty serious. Terms such as "cult" "heretic" ... etc. are strong words and they should not be thrown around loosely.
Pointing out a specific method of doing things (a system) within a church does not make them a cult. Everyone group/organization has a system. I'd really urge you to consider the weight of your accusation towards this church and please do not let your emotion cloud your judgement. The body of Christ is to be 1 and writing things such as this only tears His Body apart. Our aim should be in glorifying God, not fighting our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. I am praying for you, the Mars Hill church, and all others who concur with emotions reflected in this writing.
Grace & Peace,
Ikem U.
Pointing out a specific method of doing things (a system) within a church does not make them a cult. Everyone group/organization has a system. I'd really urge you to consider the weight of your accusation towards this church and please do not let your emotion cloud your judgement. The body of Christ is to be 1 and writing things such as this only tears His Body apart. Our aim should be in glorifying God, not fighting our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. I am praying for you, the Mars Hill church, and all others who concur with emotions reflected in this writing.
Grace & Peace,
Ikem U.
281
Excellent post. I'm grateful somebody's actually making some of this stuff public. But this is not exclusive to Mars Hill or Mark Driscoll. A lot of this is just symptoms, the root cause being their Reformed Theology. I've heard stories like this from other Reformed churches too. It breeds an environment of fear and insecurity. I only wish more of that was getting exposed. Ideas have consequences and this is but one small example of the price people are paying for Calvinism.
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Wow. Sounds like Driscoll is a Nicolaitine and didn't Jesus say that he hated their deeds and doctrines? Yeah. So um, if you are reading this and you go to a church like this or Mars Hill, my advice, "Don't walk, RUN!" out of there. Your soul depends on it! Matthew 24:1-3
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I had the problem of churches contacting other churches in the area too. Then synagogues started hating me too. It ended with a pastor chasing me down the street in his car, yelling at me through the window. Then I heard a gunshot, twice. Once was outside the Canadian government building. I think that pastor was stalking me. I know he had a gun. But I told the Canadian government about it so maybe they did something to end it. I'm not going to say which church I suspect yet because I'm talking to the pastor tomorrow and seeing what they say.
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