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News Flash: I Didn't Like Hooters

(With Footnotes by a Straight Man)*

News Flash: I Didn't Like Hooters

all photos kelly o

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It is 11:37 a.m. in the Hooters parking lot, and the festivities have already begun. Beneath a be-Hootered banner, two men play "Crocodile Rock" on dueling pianos. The pianos, however, are not pianos. Instead, two electric keyboards have been implanted in black piano-shaped boxes. If dueling pianos can be said to become "more depressing," this has occurred. To the right of the dueling electric piano-shaped boxes is a rectangular fenced-in pen, in which 50 or so Hooters girls are milling about in their traditional orange baby-shorts and white Skechers and diarrhea- colored panty hose. Close quarters. It is hot outside. The air smells of manure.

This is no ordinary Hooters franchise—it is a Hooters casino, one of only three in the known world1 (if a Hooters restaurant can be said to become "more depressing," this has occurred).2 Prior to its Hooterizing, the space already housed a casino. That casino was called Rascals. Rascals is dead now. Hooters lives. We have come to the grand opening of the Hooters of South Park—a semi-industrial, working-class neighborhood south of Seattle, most recently famous for a horrific murder—to witness a fat man cut a symbolic ribbon with a pair of oversize novelty scissors. Also, we will eat wings.

Also, die a little inside.

I know Hooters is nothing new. I'm sure feminists have been pitching fits about it since the first one opened in Buttfuck, Florida, in 1983. But Hooters is new to me. I managed to avoid Hooters for the first 27 years of my life—much as I avoided strip clubs and other social transactions geared toward the male boner—and I was not, I discovered, quite ready for Hooters.

After a few minutes, a handler lets some of the Hooters girls out of their pen, and they receive Hula- hoops. We (journalists, family members, Rascals regulars in mourning) sit in folding chairs and watch as the girls gyrate to "Don't Stop Believin'" while the dueling pianists offer commentary on their bodies and gyrations. "Not only do they do that," one of the pianists leers, "later, they will serve you all food." He transitions seamlessly into "Summer of '69." The girls wiggle and bounce in the manure-scented parking lot. "Those were the best days of my life..." The aforementioned fat man comes out and makes a speech about how working at Hooters is "empowering."3 I sigh forever.

We enter the restaurant,4 seat ourselves in a booth, and meet our waitress, a truly sweet young lady who, in the spirit of Hooters Family Restaurants, I'm going to go ahead and call Professor Boobies. She is nervous. Clearly, she has been instructed to flirt with us. "So have you all eaten at Hooters restaurants before?" Professor Boobies asks, looking around the table expectantly. "Yes."5 "Yes." "Yes." "No." I have not. I am the only one. "Oooooooo!" she peeps. "Hooters viiiiiiirgin!" I prepare to lose my Hooters virginity. I hope Hooters will use a condom. "It's nice outside, huh?" Professor Boobies asks. "Yeah, it's sunny!" we reply. "And in September!" "It's almost October," I remind her. "HALLOWEEEEEN!" she cries, clapping her hands.

On the table are several copies of the September/October issue of Hooters: The Magazine, Special 2009 Swimsuit Spectacular Issue. The Hooters magazine breaks down as follows: 60 percent titties (faux), 20 percent sports, 14 percent idiotic bullshit, 1 percent Ted Nugent, and 5 percent extra titties (because, titties!). The back page is an editorial called "A Separate Set of Rules!" by one I. J. Rosenberg, who owns a "sports marketing company" in Atlanta. I. J. Rosenberg believes that celebrities, or "'special' people," get special treatment, that they live by "a separate set of rules," and that this double standard has led our country into a "financial and moral crisis." I. J. Rosenberg cites many damning instances of celebrities who "never really paid the price," including Bill Clinton ("Clinton lied to me, to you, and to the rest of the American people"), Ted Kennedy ("Is he still a senator? He's the epitome of 'never goes away'"—oops!), and O. J. Simpson ("For 12 years after being acquitted for the murder of his ex-wife, The Juice walked the streets"). I. J. Rosenberg demands justice. Exclamation point!

Of particular note in Hooters: The Magazine is the "JOKES" page, which offers a quip about the terror of rectal thermometers (that's like gay buttsex, you know!); the story of "Joan, the rather well-proportioned secretary" who didn't realize she was lying naked on a skylight; a handful of old-timey blond jokes; and a humorous exchange between two hunters: "Hey, you almost hit my wife." "Terribly sorry. Have a shot at mine, over there."

Periodically, waitresses come by and ask if we want them to sign our magazines. "Yes?" we reply. "I'll sign on the page number of how old I am," says Professor Boobies, "and don't say 16!" Um, I wasn't going to? The owner of the franchise, a remarkably uncharismatic man in an orange tie, comes by to say hello. I shake his hand much harder than is necessary. "Our motto is: Every day we throw a party and you're invited," he tells us, distracted (by boobies?). "We're committed to the growth of entertainment and excitement in the Seattle area." Eye contact is minimal.6

Finally, wings arrive. "Let me guess: Are you guys a spicy table or a not-spicy table?" Professor Boobies asks. We wait for her to guess. She doesn't. "Spicy?" we say. "I knew it!" (Then why didn't you guess?) The wings are deep-fried, which I did not expect. Grease runs down my chin. Professor Boobies' acrylic nails make it difficult for her to open the small, prepackaged tub of ranch dressing. One nail accidentally pierces the foil, and she has to go in the back for help. I dip the wing in the ranch. I feel fat and condescending.

In modern times, because of "society" and "women's rights," it's not acceptable to be (publicly) a person who likes their women dumb, subservient, seminude, and kept in a pen. A lady isn't just boobs with legs, an animated sexy mannequin that brings you food, and you cannot shoot a lady in the face just because she nags or won't give you a mouth-hug on your johnson (see: "JOKES" section, above). Anymore. We did that already (see: caveman times through 1975). Except at Hooooooters! Hooters is like a misogyny theme park, where intellectual curiosity is kept to a minimum (see: I. J. Rosenberg), all the women are girls, all the girls who weren't born "empowered" have cut open their chests and stuck plastic bags of goo in there and sewn 'em up again in the name of making money and making men happy, and no one's shaming you into treating them like humans with brain-parts. You're paying for the privilege, after all. They have the right to vote, after all (going on 100 years now! Girl power!). Jesus Christ. I'm raising my daughters to be ugly.

It's like—a friend pointed out later—if someone opened a restaurant called Niggers, and the all-black waitstaff dressed like slaves and step 'n' fetched you platters of watermelon, and when it was your birthday they were all, "Jump-down-turn-around-pick-a-bale-of-cotton!" and brought you a cake in the shape of a bale of cotton. And racists could go! And indulge their desire to be publicly racist under the guise of a fun-loving theme restaurant! Niggers! It's all in fun. It really is like that.7

Eventually, when we can eat no more curly fries, the Hooters girls, under the watchful eye of orange-tie-man, clap their hands and sing a loud song. It is last call. Lunch is over. Some of the Hooters girls seem happy; some don't. It's a job. They get to make some money. They are pretty. Some of them have fake hair. Maybe they want more than Hooters; maybe they don't. Maybe it's just a restaurant. We step outside into the bright parking lot, hot in September. I'm glad I'm not wearing panty hose. It smells like manure. recommended

*Footnotes

by Paul Constant

1. The others are in Las Vegas and Spokane. This month, Renton will boast the world's first Hooters restaurant and bowling alley.

2. Let's visit with the devil's advocate for a minute. Every job waiting tables sucks. How is a job waiting tables at, say, the Cheesecake Factory any better? You have to wear a silly, impractical outfit (white jeans? In a kitchen?). You may not be objectified as openly, but you still flirt for tips. And how about the poor, wretched human beings at Cold Stone Creamery or Johnny Rockets, forced to sing for their tips while wearing silly outfits? Is that somehow okay because it's not sexual? And Hooters waitresses probably make better tips. One could argue that Hooters doesn't create a problem, it just capitalizes on it. We are America. We have capitalized on our problems from the very beginning. At least some women are making more money off of it now, right? Right?

3. The fat man also makes a speech about how he will protect the Hooters brand. It's unclear exactly what he's going to protect Hooters from—socialism?—but he made that vow, in front of journalists and family members and the all-encompassing odor of shit. So if something awful happens to the Hooters brand because of the Hooters casino in South Park, we all will know who has failed in his sacred calling.

4. To get into the restaurant, we have to walk through a gauntlet of cheering Hooters girls. A reporter for some local publication or other, a large, slovenly, doofy guy with a goatee, holds up his hands and throws his chin in the air pridefully, accepting the applause like some loose-fit-khaki-wearing potentate returning home from JCPenney with a great bounty.

5. My previous trip to Hooters: On a business trip to Washington, D.C., three middle-aged ladies thought it would be hee-larious to drag their bookish young employee to a Hooters for a business lunch. I ate a pale, gamy chicken sandwich, watched a Hooters waitress try to teach an awestruck 3-year-old boy how to Hula-hoop (she was probably more successful at creating a future panty-hose fetishist), and puked my lunch back out on the side of NPR's headquarters during the walk back.

6. If you are embarrassed to be in a Hooters and you are a straight man, eye contact is incredibly problematic. You don't want to just stare the waitress in the eye, because that seems to somehow proclaim "I'm not staring at your tits" in a very blatant way. So you just have to look at the tabletop, or some neon orange thing or another, or your glistening food.

7. Okay, it's not quite like that. But here's the most problematic thing about the Hooters brand: its positioning as a family restaurant, built on family values. They encourage people to bring their kids. They sell child-size Hooters T-shirts (one kid's T-shirt has handprints all over it, and it reads "Hooters Girls Can't Keep Their Hands Off Me") and even Hooters bibs and onesies for infants. In this way, it is more dishonest than, say, strip clubs or porn, which are clearly for adults. Hooters avoids that kind of stigma in part thanks to regular and publicized charitable donations—today's restaurant opening trumpeted a gift to a local cystic fibrosis foundation and featured a heartfelt, and incredibly awkward, speech about the horrible disease by the relative of a CF sufferer.

 

Comments (244) RSS

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JF 1
I would have never imagined something as harmless as another Hooters opening would get such a write-up.

Also, that girl's body looks amazing.

Finally, does anyone have a better place for wings in the city? It's not that I live for hooters, I just live for wings and I seriously have no place else to go for mass consumption of said hot wings.
Posted by JF on September 30, 2009 at 11:32 AM · Report this
JF 2
ok. I lied. I wasn't finished with my thoughts and questions.

Is Hooters different than it's neighbor in SLU Joey's? From what I understand (I've never been) they consistently higher traditionally attractive women for all of their waiting positions.

Or Linda's on the hill? I've yet to find an unattractive woman OR man who has worked there. That place is crawling with 9's and 10's - to say otherwise would be intentionally obtuse. Obviously those employees aren't prancing around in orange short-shorts but they are still hot as shit to the point where I have to consider the employees are meeting some standard of beauty.

The difference, as I see it, is that Hooters lays it on the table and embraces their practice. I'm not saying that is morally sound but it can't be any worse than the highering practices at the two bars I mentioned above.
Posted by JF on September 30, 2009 at 11:48 AM · Report this
Sir Vic 3
I once saw a guy bring his prom date to a Hooters. I'm all for teenage boys getting some titties in their face, but bringing your date there is beyond wrong. If some boy picked up my daughter for her prom and mentioned that their dinner would be Hooter wings, he'd be going alone.
Posted by Sir Vic on September 30, 2009 at 11:59 AM · Report this
Semi-hirsute anthropoid 4
"...if someone opened a restaurant called Niggers..."

Sad to say there used to be a chain of restaurants called "Sambo's" that exploited the racist book "L'il Black Sambo." They cleaned up their image in later years. I don't know if they still exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo%27s_R…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC7Cc66DN…
Posted by Semi-hirsute anthropoid on September 30, 2009 at 12:31 PM · Report this
Semi-hirsute anthropoid 5
Oh, and Kelly O, thanks for dehumanizing the waitress in your photo by cropping her face from your picture. Way to go! Did you bother to engage her in any sort of real conversation and possible learn something about her as a human being? Are you any better than the drooling troglodytes who see her only as a pair of tits with acyrlic nails?
Posted by Semi-hirsute anthropoid on September 30, 2009 at 12:41 PM · Report this
Semi-hirsute anthropoid 6
Oops, my bad: I meant to address my second and third questions in post #5 to Lindy West.
Posted by Semi-hirsute anthropoid on September 30, 2009 at 12:45 PM · Report this
7
I love you, Lindy West. This is a great article. Your point about opening a restaurant called "Niggers" and seeing how people respond is right on.

I hate this willful cluelessness that people have when discussing what constitutes misogyny. I also can't stand the attitude that feminism is all about giving women choices, and therefore to question the choices or the larger issues surrounding the choices that they make is in itself sexist because their choices don't affect us.

Like Paul said, Hooters didn't create the issues, it's just capitalizing on them, and women are making money, so what's the problem? If you can't figure it out, then you just aren't trying. Substitute "Niggers" for "Hooters" and it'll make more sense.

Posted by And the outfits are horrid on September 30, 2009 at 12:58 PM · Report this
8
#5, the article is about how dehumanized the women who work at Hooters are paid to be, so the picture makes sense.

Why would Lindy try to engage a waitress in a "real conversation" when the woman's trying to work? When you review a restaurant, you write about the waitstaff based on how they present themselves to you while waiting on you. Readers don't need to know about anything other than how they'll be treated when they go to the place, and she covered that.

Her last paragraph acknowledges that she has no idea what these women are really like or what they really want to do with their lives. She's writing about what they are paid to act like. I think she made that obvious.
Posted by Let the willful cluelessness begin.... on September 30, 2009 at 2:01 PM · Report this
9
We get it. You don't like Hooters. You are more intelligent, thoughtful, enlightened, then anyone who has ever worked, eaten or drank at Hooters. Congratulations. Guess what, you never have to go back nor do you have to give a second thought about anyone who CHOOSES to work or eat there. Some people like Hooters. Some women like having big fake tits and blonde hair and enjoy using them to make tips. Isn't feminism about the choice to be able to do that? Get over yourself Lindy West, you are no more a feminist then a woman who highlights her hair and enlarges her breast then makes money serving mediocre wings.
Posted by . on September 30, 2009 at 2:26 PM · Report this
Fistique 10
Wow, great anticipation of the precise wording in @9, @7. And great article, Ms. West.
Posted by Fistique on September 30, 2009 at 3:00 PM · Report this
11
Lindy West, you should not be eating
Posted by fat little piggy on September 30, 2009 at 3:13 PM · Report this
12
Anti-intellectualism, institutional conformity, and over-cooking can kill even awesome things like Sex and Wings. News at 11.

But let's make this positive:
Please recommend your favorite restaurants with smart, sexy staff and killer food!
Posted by opticsdoug on September 30, 2009 at 3:16 PM · Report this
13
Check page 72 of this week's issue...oh wait, no wings.
Posted by yours on September 30, 2009 at 3:21 PM · Report this
Fnarf 14
This article makes me sad. Hooters makes me sad -- sadder than a strip club, honestly. It's not even the boobies; it's the forced bonhomie.
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on September 30, 2009 at 3:27 PM · Report this
15
It's okay for Kelly O. to use a half naked dude, some cleavage, and a little pussy cat for last week's issue? But boobs for wings is a sin!

HOOTERS is rotten, no doubt. But who cares? The Lust Lab is rotten, but who cares? Which has more potential to hurt the user of the service? Indigestion beats a nasty discharge anyday of the week!

Snobs. Fuckin' snobs.
Posted by ladlfashf on September 30, 2009 at 3:52 PM · Report this
16
There is a reason we don't see any of their faces.
Posted by Rien on September 30, 2009 at 3:54 PM · Report this
jz 17
Last year's Stranger article about Hooters, which was written by a regular-type male who sincerely likes chicken wings and boobies:

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/nothi…
Posted by jz http://search.nwsource.com/search?sort=date&from=ST&byline=Jonathan%20Zwickel on September 30, 2009 at 4:30 PM · Report this
18
Hey, I tried Hooters, and I've got something to say:

The wings are nasty. They're overgreased and underflavored. They substitute 'hot' for 'tasty'. Anything you have to dip into ranch dressing to make palatable is not good food.
Posted by There's Boobs? on September 30, 2009 at 4:31 PM · Report this
dan10things 19
The biggest travesty of Hooters is their food tastes gross and their drinks are overpriced. Yeah, newsflash, the uniforms and vibe of the place exploits women. It's a gimmick and they are pretty up front about it, there has to be more important things in this world to be morally outraged about.
Posted by dan10things http://10thingszine.blogspot.com on September 30, 2009 at 4:45 PM · Report this
20
Yeah, men are pigs, deal with it ladies.

People are racist, oh well, who the fuck cares? Don't be so uptight.

Everyone likes to make fun of faggy gays. Get over it.

Why expect anyone to change their views about anything ever?
Posted by Brule's rules on September 30, 2009 at 4:48 PM · Report this
21
This is a really poorly written and poorly edited article.
I can understand the dislike for Hooters, but this isn't an intelligent discussion about it. It's condescending and disrespectful towards the waitresses, and doesn't accomplish anything other than showing how pretentious the author is.
Women who work at Hooters work at Hooters either because they enjoy it (all the more power to them), or because they need the job. Period.
If you want to write about the food, then write about the food. Write about the service, but calling your waitress "Professor Boobies" is just as misogynistic as anything else the author is griping about in this article.
Posted by loo on September 30, 2009 at 6:08 PM · Report this
Rotten666 22
It's a fucking job. It pays the bills. And who the fuck are you to judge someone who wants to use their tits and ass to make some extra bread? You really have a problem with women playing into these outdated gender roles?

Let me get this straight...the Stranger is pro sex worker but anti-hooter girl? Fuck you.

All you have shown me Lindy, is that you are a smug self righteous hyporcrite.

Worst stranger article ever.
Posted by Rotten666 on September 30, 2009 at 6:27 PM · Report this
23
I consider your comment about black people in your section as racist and insensative.I will report you to whomever I will report you to to correct the situation.That was terriable and not true on the example you used about African Americans who are amazing by the way.
Posted by Zo on September 30, 2009 at 8:52 PM · Report this
growler 24
agreed 22.
this article makes no fuckin sense.
what its doing in the stranger or any other periodical for that matter, is...well...strange.

i also love titties.
Posted by growler on September 30, 2009 at 9:05 PM · Report this
25
God I am so sick of girls who think everything has to be about THEM. Hooters isn't for women - especially they type that feels they are dying inside just because they see men in a titty restaurant enjoying themselves. Why does every single business on the face of the earth have to cater to women? Why can't there just be a place where guys can go and not worry what the little missus is going to think? Get over yourself, Lindy. Hooters was never meant to be a place for you.
Posted by montex on September 30, 2009 at 10:22 PM · Report this
26
I think lindy needs a pint of hagen daas to make her feel better about herself.

Seriously, if hooters is that upsetting, watch where you get your coffee in the morning. Some places have girls in BIKINIS.
Posted by Charles U. Farley on September 30, 2009 at 10:51 PM · Report this
27
#1, Wing Dome is a great place for wings if you're looking for a sit-down place, for delivery Wing Zone owns, much better quality than Hooters and no breading to soak up grease.
Posted by Reader1 on October 1, 2009 at 12:00 AM · Report this
28
Also looks like Lindy wants to take over the resident Stranger intolerable shrill feminist role abdicated by Erica Barnett
Posted by Reader1 on October 1, 2009 at 12:01 AM · Report this
29
Lindy, I am glad that you are outspoken about the unbearable smugness and sexism of Hooters, and I am totally with you on the analogy it bears to racism. What is even more infuriating is that calling the franchise (and its patrons) out on this is considered being "shrill" or "uptight" by the readers. Why can't women just "relax"? Why can't those black people just "relax"? Any sort of semi-intelligent, articulate and (though this might be the Achilles' heel I am still glad of it) emotionally forthright pronunciation against such blatant exploitation is dismissed by the masses (that's US, people) as snobbish or elitist. Where are we going? There is a reason to take this shit seriously. I recently taught college freshmen (at an Ivy League School, no less) and was astonished to see the amount of internalized sexism they exhibited. There has been a serious regression in the struggle for women's equality, coupled with a cultural retardation of which Hooters is not a reason but an example-- one that makes a nice profit for its perpetrators. It truly makes me wait in dreaded anticipation for a future like the one depicted in Idiocracy.
Posted by concerned woman on October 1, 2009 at 2:22 AM · Report this
30
@29: You get the mushroom (or whatever the SLOG award is for best comment). Lindy: good story!
Posted by mali on October 1, 2009 at 4:01 AM · Report this
JF 31
@30 - Did you forget to read 22's comment?

@29 - I know you were being sarcastic, but black people really do need to relax.
Posted by JF on October 1, 2009 at 7:49 AM · Report this
32
The extremity of some of the comments proves Lindy's point further. People get overly defensive when someone calls out what is obvious and blatant sexism. It's the feminist as the "f-word". It's not hip to be a feminist, we all know that, but why do you think that is? Shrill? C'mon. She makes a valid point in a thoughtful way, so she's shrill and uptight and needs to just get over it? Because that's how women have come as far as they have, by shutting up and "relaxing". I understand disagreeing, but people do so with such vehemence and at times cruelty that it's pretty obvious where it's coming from. And we all know it's not just about sex or what's sexy. Blonde jokes, killing your nagging wife jokes, etc - that's not about sex.
Posted by OiZoiOi on October 1, 2009 at 7:50 AM · Report this
JF 33
@32 - I understand what you are saying but it should be noted that this magazine supports the concept of sex workers, hosts an annual pornography viewing party (I know it's not just men fucking women, but still), and has advertisiments up and down for escorts and strip clubs. And as someone already pointed out, last weeks COVER featured a bulging cock and tits.

I think we could agree that those escorts and titty bars (Miss Tight End Contest????) do more to negatively affect the preception of women than Hooters, a restaurant which hires their workers based on their looks. A practice that is common among many restaurants.

I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist. I just think places like hooters are mild in comparison to things I listed above.

Posted by JF on October 1, 2009 at 9:00 AM · Report this
34
That article made me sad to be a Progressive, because I'm sure that the author considers herself to be one as well. Holy cow. I think every single sentence had some pretentiousness built in to it. Get the fuck over yourself.
Posted by Whateva on October 1, 2009 at 10:14 AM · Report this
Rotten666 35
@33 I would love to hear someone from the Stranger explain why everyone else in the flesh trade gets a free pass, but somehow the hooters girls are deemed to be unacceptable stereotypes.

How is this different? Is it the blond hair and fake fingernails? Or due you take issue because the hooter girls are selling a brand of sex that is geared towards vanilla white males from the suburbs?

Posted by Rotten666 on October 1, 2009 at 10:26 AM · Report this
Sat'n 36
This is a response to footnote #7: Hooters is not a "family restaurant" because it serves beer. The term "family restaurant" was invented by places like Country Kitchen to differentiate themselves from bars that served similar food, and to attract christian patrons. Hooters may try to lighten its strp-club image by giving to charity, but it cannot claim to be a "family restaurant."

Um, also: bla bla fucking bla.
Posted by Sat'n on October 1, 2009 at 10:35 AM · Report this
37
Whatever, who cares about Hooters? The article was entertaining, and the read was like a Kurt Vonnegut excerpt.
Posted by Boobiesareoverated on October 1, 2009 at 10:38 AM · Report this
Sat'n 38
And furthermnore: I suspect that if there were a bar/restaurant called Cucumbers that had beefcakey, scantily-clad waiters who flirted with all the chicks and gay dudes, the Stranger would probably give it an award for being the awesomest place on Earth. Rightfully so, maybe. Just sayin.
Posted by Sat'n on October 1, 2009 at 10:40 AM · Report this
39
Why is the choice that some women are making to work at Hooters not really their choice? There are other places where good looking women can get jobs as wait staff. Tips at Hooters tend to be higher because men often think with their crotches.
We could just as accurately frame this as a bunch of women exploiting easily led men by separating the men from their ability to think rationally-since we all know that if you shove some tits in a guys face he become incapable of thought.
Ms. West has failed to show how this chain of restaurants damages society or its employees. And the analogy of "niggers" is a strawman. If a bunch of black folks opened a restaurant with that name it would be hailed as taboo breaking boldness. Especially if the staff was white folks in blackface.
And what about the possibility of lesbian customers at Hooters?
Posted by BakerB on October 1, 2009 at 11:36 AM · Report this
Spiffy D 40
It's just a shitty restaurant chain. Their food is terrible, boobs or not.

Fuckin relax, people.
Posted by Spiffy D on October 1, 2009 at 11:51 AM · Report this
41
"And what about the possibility of lesbian customers at Hooters? "

Speaking only for myself, not my scene. BTDT since I was told the wings were so good. (They're not very good. The beer was fine but you have to work to mess up beer.) Hooters waitresses don't seem to spend their flirty tactics on women. (At a guess, female customers make them a bit weirded out, just as male customers would be out of place at a strip club with male dancers catering to the straight female crowd.)

I found that chatting up the waitress is a bit like talking to a peppy, pretty kindergarten teacher in orange shorts.
Posted by CleverScreenName on October 1, 2009 at 12:00 PM · Report this
42
please do not compare this to kurt vonnegut. please.
Posted by chancematic on October 1, 2009 at 12:04 PM · Report this
Posted by poof! yer a drink on October 1, 2009 at 12:04 PM · Report this
44
wing dome has the best wings, for anybody who needs somewhere else to get some wings.
Posted by wseattlegirl on October 1, 2009 at 12:19 PM · Report this
chukster 45
Jesus F-N Christ! meow! it's a restaurant ,who cares how they serve their food, it makes money, people go there, and your a PUSSY who just doesn't like it, so what! get over it!
Posted by chukster on October 1, 2009 at 12:20 PM · Report this
46
Hooters is for sure crass, no argument there but I'm surprised no one here is calling bullshit on the rather over-the-top racism analogy in this article. So here it is - bullshit! Roughly the equivalent of shrieking Hitler! at every vaguely authoritarian (or black socialist) politician one has an issue with.
Posted by Rhizome on October 1, 2009 at 12:34 PM · Report this
47
Lindy West once again proves that she is the worst writer in the Stranger's satchel, another article that does nothing, goes nowhere, and only proves that the writer exaggerates more than a 12 year old girl writing in her diary about the boy that looked her way in science class, lame.
Posted by G2000 on October 1, 2009 at 12:59 PM · Report this
Spiffy D 48
Wing Dome my ass.

Cook your own damn wings. It's so easy you can even do it while blind drunk. Use habaneros in the sauce and you'll be shittin fire for a week.

As Martha says, "It's a good thing."
Posted by Spiffy D on October 1, 2009 at 1:04 PM · Report this
ex-neocon poly wife 49
Ick! You just put words to my whole disgust with that chain. TYVM...and visit my blog--great sample of an empowered female psyche.

Again, I can't thank you too much for putting words to my disgust.
Posted by ex-neocon poly wife http://aphroditesdreams.blogspot.com/ on October 1, 2009 at 1:12 PM · Report this
50
I LIKE the wings at Hooters (I also like the fried shrimp). It's greasy and deep fried, but that's the way I like it. I find the cheery sing-song atmosphere no more or less annoying than that at a TGIFridays or similar chain restaurant (which is to say, "pretty fucking annoying") but I likewise know what I'm getting into when I walk through the door.

I'm also a chick who used to host radio events at Hooters in the Midwest once a week. And every Wednesday after our "10 cent wing, 5 dollar pitcher" nights, my co-workers and I would hit one of the local strip clubs.

I never thought I was better than the women serving me wings or lap dances simply because I had more clothes on than they did. Nor did I pity them, because that would have been equally insulting and condescending. I enjoyed the work they did, and tipped accordingly.

I usually like Lindy's writing, but I think a situation like this (or the strip club buffet article) where she's going in with a lot of preconceived notions is kind of a dead end. She knows she's not going to enjoy herself "because women are being exploited" and she proves herself right every time.

It's like going to the Playboy mansion and being upset that some women really like being naked in public. Some enjoy it, some might only do it because there's a market for it, but that's still their choice. Just because it feeds a market you're uncomfortable with doesn't make it wrong or "lesser" than any other job options.
Posted by Karla http://underthewagon.com on October 1, 2009 at 1:18 PM · Report this
JF 51
I know I'm repeating myself but...

@49 - I assume you're just as disgusted by the "Hump" promotion at the top of the webpage? You know, the one with two women, sitting spread eagle with a camera aimed at one of the girl's crotch?

Don't forget about the Lust Lab photo featuring the topless woman who's just beging me to come over there and give it to her good.

Posted by JF on October 1, 2009 at 1:22 PM · Report this
52
The best part of this whole thing is the Hump 5 ad next to the article.
Oh the irony!
People are funny.
Posted by killmenow on October 1, 2009 at 1:30 PM · Report this
53
The best part of this whole thing is the Hump 5 display ad next to the article.
Oh, the irony!
People are funny.
Posted by killmenow on October 1, 2009 at 1:32 PM · Report this
54
@38, God Am I waiting for this...This town needs it!!
Posted by Cucumberlover on October 1, 2009 at 1:37 PM · Report this
55
This article is quite excellent. It reminds me of a somewhat less erudite and somewhat more foul-mouthed version of DFW's "Consider the Lobster."

@46, you can certainly argue the extent of the validity of the analogy, but it's hardly screaming Hitler. Women have been (and still are) murdered and raped and excluded from the political system because they are female.

The comments about how this article is inconsistent with the Stranger's enthusiasm for sexwork raise an interesting point. Maybe the reason why Hooters seems pernicious is because its employees aren't its entrepreneurs (hence don't have as much agency over their profession), which seems to be the flavor of sex-work most feminists support (if they support any). Or maybe it is because a $300/hour dominatrix is white collar work, while a $10/hour hooters waitress is blue collar work?
Posted by Another Andrew on October 1, 2009 at 1:45 PM · Report this
56
How was the food? Was it a good value? Was the service good and timely? Was the staff professional, capable, friendly and attentive? Was the atmosphere pleasant and comfortable? Was the noise level acceptable? Was the place clean, including the bathrooms? None of that is included because what this writer offers is self-indulgent false superiority with oh so many clever adjectives. Who cares what you think about the style of this place? What makes you an authority?
Posted by textthatappearsbelow on October 1, 2009 at 1:52 PM · Report this
57
"I dip the wing in the ranch. I feel fat and condescending."

Lindy for the WIN on herself!!!

Also since when is Paul Constant straight?
Posted by I like where this is going on October 1, 2009 at 1:57 PM · Report this
58
Uptight fucking Seattle douchebags. Jesus. I don't like Hooters, but this article is ridiculous.

Now I get a sense of what right wing nutjobs mean when they scream "thought police" and "PC".

As the father of two independent, strong-willed and brilliant daughters, I can honestly say to the author: Lighten the fuck up. You have serious self-esteem issues. You also most likely have intimacy issues as well. What a fucking whiner.
Posted by screed on October 1, 2009 at 1:59 PM · Report this
59
Additionally, Paul Constant's footnote "A reporter ...holds up his hands and throws his chin in the air pridefully, accepting the applause like some loose-fit-khaki-wearing potentate returning home from JCPenney with a great bounty" is probably the best turn of phrase I've read in the past week.
Posted by Another Andrew on October 1, 2009 at 2:01 PM · Report this
60
@37, this read NOTHING like a Vonnegut excerpt. Vonnegut did not take cheap shots. Vonnegut wrote as if he had put himself in the shoes of the person whom he criticized (White-knighting Vonnegut as if he needs my help). This article was far short of that humanity.
Posted by textthatappearsbelow on October 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM · Report this
Rotten666 61
@55

10 bucks an hour? Get a clue; those girls are making a shit ton more than 10 an hour. This isn't the fucking IHOP.

Posted by Rotten666 on October 1, 2009 at 2:12 PM · Report this
62
@59, "holds up his hands and throws his chin in the air pridefully, accepting the applause like some loose-fit-khaki-wearing potentate returning home from JCPenney with a great bounty" is an adjective-clogged piece of pure derision. Designed to get applause for the barbing of an innocent bystander.
Posted by textthatappearsbelow on October 1, 2009 at 2:13 PM · Report this
63
Man, I miss the days when hipster guys were as smart and feminist as Ian McKay. What the fuck happened?

When women have equal control over their own sexuality (including when to NOT be sexualized), and when I have my pick of places to go and drool over hot, straight men in their underwear, I'll be ok with places like Hooters existing.
Posted by most of these comments are pathetic on October 1, 2009 at 3:15 PM · Report this
64
@35, the difference between Hooters and the sex work advertised and promoted in The Stranger is that the latter pays their bills and is targeted to the demographic that reads The Stranger. Must not bite the hand that feeds you.

The white suburban males who frequent Hooters are not usually readers of The Stranger.
Posted by Reg on October 1, 2009 at 3:18 PM · Report this
65
I could not care less about Hooters, that's why I never go. Guess what? I don't care if you go or work there or not.

I think the comments on this article raise a very, very serious issue about Seattle: where the hell to get great wings?!!

Lindy - you should interview the janitor at the Lusty Lady or something, you know, to restore balance to the universe and all.
Posted by whofincares on October 1, 2009 at 3:44 PM · Report this
66
This article must have been quite simple to write, since it has been written only about 5000 times all-fucking-ready. Would it not have been possible to at least bring an originial slant to the task? Perhaps The Stranger should up the pay rate for articles and attract some writers who have something interesting or original to say, rather that regurgitating the same old slop that has sloshing around for the last two or three decades.
Posted by Dirt Bag on October 1, 2009 at 4:02 PM · Report this
67
Holy shit how dare a restaurant cater to men with conventional tastes in women. What's wrong exaggerated feminity - big fake tits and fake nails and dyed blond hair? What's wrong with taking enjoyment in a woman serving you? These are natural desires many men have. It's only a problem for women when the boobjobs and servitude are FORCED on them. And it never is. Chill the fuck out, Ms. West.
Posted by Sammy Pickover on October 1, 2009 at 4:07 PM · Report this
68
food sucks - the beers are expensive - the different hotsauces were good though.... they have like 5 different ones for the wings....

The women are always nice too. hooters is a great place for a beer on a hot summer day. beer - boobies and don't forget to leave a huge tip.
Posted by Sapa on October 1, 2009 at 4:56 PM · Report this
69
food sucks - the beers are expensive - the different hotsauces were good though.... they have like 5 different ones for the wings....

The women are always nice too. hooters is a great place for a beer on a hot summer day. beer - boobies and don't forget to leave a huge tip.
Posted by Sapa on October 1, 2009 at 4:57 PM · Report this
70
I remember an article about Hooters written in this very same publication about a year ago that gave a different perspective. I liked the previous take better.
Posted by mongeez on October 1, 2009 at 5:00 PM · Report this
71
I will note that what you experienced is nothing like a typical Hooters restaurant. They clearly hammed it up for the opening.

My father's taken me to one here and there to eat chicken wings and watch football, and I think friends dragged me to one some other time. It's a lot more low key and the waitresses are a lot less flirty. In other words, it's a regular restaurant, except the waitstaff's all somewhat attractive women and they're dressed like morons.
Posted by Gomez http://misterstevengomez.com on October 1, 2009 at 5:55 PM · Report this
72
Please fire this writer..
Posted by Rogo on October 1, 2009 at 5:58 PM · Report this
73
Racist white women aren't feminists.

News flash - black people don't always appreciate being used as a metaphorical Go-To Oppression-O-Meter!

This basically read like a giant excuse for you to say "n****r" several times.
Posted by EyeRoll on October 1, 2009 at 7:15 PM · Report this
74
You people don't get it. You're fuckin' idiots.

Hooters doesn't advertise in The Stranger.

That's the issue; it's a shakedown.

When you read an article in The Stranger, always consider who does and doesn't advertise in The Stranger.

When you read the political opinions of writers and the editorial board of The Stranger, always consider who does and doesn't advertise in The Stranger.
Posted by No fuckin' doubt, it's a shakedown on October 1, 2009 at 7:59 PM · Report this
75
Hey Lindy when you say you don't indulge in things related to the male boner does that include actually being a hot chick? And as for raising your kids to be ugly, I think nature has got that well in check for you..Haw Haw Haw!

Don't worry though, I'd still titty fuck ya!
Posted by Yucko The Clown on October 1, 2009 at 8:26 PM · Report this
76
Hey Lindy when you say you don't indulge in things related to the male boner does that include actually being a hot chick? And as for raising your kids to be ugly, I think nature has got that well in check for you..Haw Haw Haw!

Don't worry though, I'd still titty fuck ya!
Posted by Yucko The Clown on October 1, 2009 at 8:27 PM · Report this
77
Hey Lindy when you say you don't indulge in things related to the male boner does that include actually being a hot chick? And as for raising your kids to be ugly, I think nature has got that well in check for you..Haw Haw Haw!

Don't worry though, I'd still titty fuck ya!
Posted by Yucko The Clown on October 1, 2009 at 8:31 PM · Report this
78
Hey Lindy when you say you don't indulge in things related to the male boner does that include actually being a hot chick? And as for raising your kids to be ugly, I think nature has got that well in check for you..Haw Haw Haw!

Don't worry though, I'd still titty fuck ya!
Posted by Yucko on October 1, 2009 at 8:41 PM · Report this
79
Fuggin stinkin service hang-ups!
Posted by Yucko the Clown on October 1, 2009 at 8:45 PM · Report this
80
Can someone actually articulate how in the fuck this article is racist?

Because I don't understand how so many of you can be so hyper-sensitive to race issues that someone even saying, "Hey, what if we had an equivalent club that offended black people" can get you all riled up and yelling "racist," but you still have no idea why this type of establishment THAT ACTUALLY EXISTS offends women?

I think that was Lindy's whole fucking point.
Posted by virginia mason on October 1, 2009 at 8:55 PM · Report this
D310 81
@5, 15, 21, etc...

Some of you all are taking this review with way too much offense.

It's called LIGHT HUMOR...LIGHT!. A little commentary, a little observation, a little truth a little joke(s). Overall, It's a "review" and If you don't like [her] review, then go online and google another restaurant critics' review of our national treasure, Hooters. There's a choice of who you can agree with these days, Lindy's article is not the "end-all" definitive truth about Hooters.

Respectfully,
D310
Posted by D310 on October 1, 2009 at 10:47 PM · Report this
82
Lindy West: best article EVER! Go grrl!!!

And fuck these pod people if they don't like it. I loved it and the comparison to overt racism was just sweet!

May the misogynist corporate founders of this idiot restaurant chain soon drown in a vat of their own lard.
Posted by Grrrl on October 1, 2009 at 11:26 PM · Report this
83
@67
Actually, these roles are forced on women. How many men end up exploited and reduced to base sexual beings by women because they need a job? Not too damn many, last time I checked. Most men are never put in a situation where they are encouraged to exploit their physical attractiveness in order to survive, be liked, or be treated as valuable human beings. The fact is that sexual roles are shoved down women's throats from the moment they hit puberty, and under the tone of many of their social exchanges (especially for young women) is the implied assumption of their basic worth lying in their physical attractiveness (which is defined by the man). Hooters is not the issue here; the reason so many people are so worked up about the real issue of the pervasive sexism in our culture is because they are forced to live with it every damn day of their lives. Don't try to make this about the specific example of Hooters, because it's not.
Posted by actually... on October 2, 2009 at 12:50 AM · Report this
84
oh these articles... they're get worse each time.
Posted by peoplestealmyname on October 2, 2009 at 12:52 AM · Report this
85
@ 83. I believe you are correct in your belief that women are often times encouraged/forced to exploit their physical attractiveness in order to survive. On the flip side of that though men are just as likely (if not more likely) to have to exploit their physical muscles in order to obtain work (construction, etc...). Often times these gender roles are flipped (where a woman is doing the manaul labor and vice versa). This is how life works, all of us provide a service to other who have a need.
Posted by Matt2789 on October 2, 2009 at 4:52 AM · Report this
86
oh so you dont like fake boobs?whats the problem with them?nothing to do with making men happy.women and kids come there too.its relaxed and a good time.and girls are pretty covered up. compared to the cowgirls dancers or the barista up in everett wiggling their butts up in everett that just made the news. women are not empowered huh?did you sit there and talk to any of the girls.are you jealous?the are way worse things out the and you want to say you that.i have so much to say.where ever you go no matter what job your looks will get you a job or not get you a job.i will be back to write more cause really you and your article lady are too funny. oh and fyajke yi tour next pay check and get your teeth fixed!thay are rotting!YES IM TALKING ABOUT THE LADY THAT WROTE THIS ARTICLE!YES LINDA! YOU MUST BE JEALOUS CAUSE THESE GIRLS ARE HOT. TALK TO YOU AGAIN SOON
Posted by HEY NOW REALLY on October 2, 2009 at 6:26 AM · Report this
87
so basically you are ugly and hate all cute nice hot girls.so you must .hate all nfl cheerleaders.lingerie bowls.and actress showing too much skin for millions.all of firefighters that do a yearly calander wear the women show skin.oh you hate hooters.they are more coverd than most jobs out there.you article was stupid and you pretty much are too. like really get a life
Posted by linda get your teeth fixed hater on October 2, 2009 at 7:18 AM · Report this
88
EVERYONE STOP PUTTING LINDY IN THE CORNER! SHE'S A COMPASSIONATE GIRL WITH LOADS OF TALENT! SHE HAS A GREAT PERSONALITY AND IS A MARVELOUS DANCER!

I just wish she'd stop associating with these dead-beat "writers" and meet some nice boys. Maybe an attorney or a doctor. Lindy, honey, it's okay sweetie. You're better than all these losers!

#'S 86 & 87. IT'S LINDY, NOT LINDA! SCHMUCKS!
Posted by Lindy's mom. on October 2, 2009 at 8:03 AM · Report this
89
I love how a bunch of the comments are bitching and whining about how Lindy is bitching and whining about Hooters. It seems obvious that she's trying to tackle the subject with her own irreverent brand of humor, not write something intended for the front page of the New York Times.
Posted by Manthony on October 2, 2009 at 8:29 AM · Report this
SpireaX 90
Like Lindy, I "lost" my Hooters virginity. As an out gay man surrounded by straight co-workers, the appeal of Hooters was utterly lost on me. The food was terrible and I was a bit disturbed by the skimpy attire worn by the servers, who were all amply endowed and had unbelievably tanned bodies. I tried their oyster shots, got talked into buying the shot glass by our waitress and had to insist on buying another watered-down cocktail to make the experience bearable. The next day, I complained that I went to Hooters and all I got was a lousy shot glass.
Posted by SpireaX http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/profile.php?id=1364749062&ref=profile on October 2, 2009 at 8:31 AM · Report this
91
#89 you said Lindy has humor? Really? Lindy's humor is on par with the worst episode of Mad TV ever. "Hey everybody it was like, SOOOOO Lame! I couldn't believe Capitan boobies would degrader herself to like, show all that skin and stuff. It was totally gross and I died a little inside, I just can't believe a woman would do all of this to look good in the eyes of average white douche bags that watch NFL and CBS comedies, because my articles are awesome!!!!! Seriously folks this is worse than Britney Spears parking lot and that was some serious sh@t. Can we get a real article out of the Stranger these days?
Posted by Giesel on October 2, 2009 at 9:13 AM · Report this
92
#88 that would be the best thing ever, then maybe we could be spared reading this crap on a weekly basis.
Posted by LindyWest isLame.com on October 2, 2009 at 9:16 AM · Report this
93
Great article. Hooters is indeed capitalizing on the American culture of puritanism and the distorted expression of sexuality that such prudishness generates.

Highly processed, mostly artificial (i.e. fake) food served by women with highly processed, mostly artificial (i..e. fake) breasts; at Hooters, substance and form mirror one another perfectly.

Men into huge breasts are babies. Witness their id-driven behavior as they act out their infantile nourishment fixations while eating in this kind of a setting.
Posted by Brad Howard on October 2, 2009 at 11:09 AM · Report this
Christopher Smith 94
I read Lindy West’s article, “I didn’t like Hooters” in the 10/1 issue and was glad to read her upfront, unapologetic and seriously feminist description of the shabby and sorry opening of the South Park, breast-obsessed casino. Thanks to the Stranger -- of all places -- for the article. It’s a pleasant change to see your paper dump the anything-goes attitude towards sex. Frankly, that song and dance becomes more than a little tiresome as it overlooks the degrading and prevalent attitude one gender (male) frequently displays towards the other (female). I want to hear more from West.



Posted by Christopher Smith on October 2, 2009 at 11:33 AM · Report this
95
Honestly I didn't even care what this article was about. I found it to be one of the funniest things I've read in a long time.

Great work, Lindy!
Posted by PotentMenagerie on October 2, 2009 at 11:36 AM · Report this
96
@93. Thank you for being so nice to my little Lindy-loo. You wouldn't happen to be single, would you? Are you an attorney or, fingers crossed, a doctor? Do you like Rubenesque girls?
Posted by Lindy's mom on October 2, 2009 at 11:36 AM · Report this
97
@94. Hi Christopher. Please tell me you're a straight lawyer or doctor! If so, you sound like you'll make a wonderful son-in-law. Would you like Lindy's cell phone number?
Posted by Lindy's mom and matchmaker on October 2, 2009 at 11:40 AM · Report this
98
Strip clubs and sex workers sell sex and we can certainly argue in what ways and to what extent that is inherently degrading to women.

Take a look at the pictures accompanying the article, and tell me "Caution Blondes Thinking" or the "All Women" (WTF?) signs are about sex. I can't imagine either of them in any strip club.

What Hooters is selling isn't just about the male boner.

I think Hooters is mostly harmless and exists as a place of non-normative interactions with women in the minds of most men. Still, it shouldn't be surprising that having part of its "charm" being about "putting women in their place" would bother some people.
Posted by Hooters of South Park killed Kenny on October 2, 2009 at 12:54 PM · Report this
99
I want to make a brief comment about the "Niggers" restaurant comparison that I hope will help clarify the situation:

Lindy presented the "Niggers" restaurant scenario as though the black people working there were being FORCED to work there, which obviously would make it awful and horrifying -- and who wasn't horrified by that image? But the thing about Hooters is this: the servers choose to work there. Presumably, each of those women could get other jobs that would pay the bills just as well, if not better. They know what they're getting into (beyond the 'pen'). This is what concerns me the most. But this is none of my business... so long as I choose not to give them my business. Right..?

Now, imagine that an ad appeared on Craigslist calling for dark-skinned (the darker the better! and fake pigment is ok!) servers for the "Niggers" restaurant and black people responded, WILLINGLY applying to work somewhere that they knew their blackness would be simultaneously denigrated and sexually appreciated (for the sake of forming a more accurate parallel, these racists are also turned on by black skin color). But who the hell would subject themselves to that?! What do they get out of it? A paycheck and some hefty tips, I suppose... is that really it? If the black servers knew they were being lusted after -- that not only were they being reduced to a skin color in exchange for money, but they were being sexually objectified as well -- would that make it more appealing to work there?

Let's face it: sometimes people WANT to be sexually objectified. Working at Hooters is like being able to add "Professionally sexy" (at least for those who think large breasts are the epitome of sexiness) to your resume. One could also add, for better or worse, "Able to ignore the fact that I'm more than a pair of titties for an entire 8 hour shift." Impressive.

Fact of the matter is, if anyone WANTED to work at "Niggers," it might exist. The other fact of the matter is that there are plenty of women out there who WANT to work at Hooters; they have other options, and yet, that's what they choose. THIS is the single greatest point of confusion and frustration for me regarding the article.

But... is it any of my business?

Would black people have any business protesting the mere existence of a "Niggers" restaurant based on the way it condones and perpetuates racism, out of fear that just because it is SUPPOSED to be confined to the walls of the restaurant doesn't mean it won't end up manifesting in its patrons' every day lives? Anyone telling women to "just get over" Hooters would have to say that black people would need to "just get over" a "family restaurant" catering to a racist populace.

*Sigh*.

More...
Posted by Esmerelda09 on October 2, 2009 at 1:03 PM · Report this
thelyamhound 100
While I don't care for the hectoring tone, JF makes an interesting point. Why is Linda's different? Why is, say, CrashPad's pornography different? What's the difference between a sex worker and a Hooter's employee?

No, I'm not completely obtuse. I see a few differences. But those differences seen either strictly aesthetic or strictly theoretical: indie hipster hot vs. pneumatic, appeals-to-frat-boys hot; empowered vs. exploited. Sure, there are probably some questions as to whose lot is more self-determined (or who had more capacity to make said determination).

I certainly prefer a derby girl to a Hooter's girl, or Syd Blackovich to . . . whomever frat boys find attractive. But I'm not comfortable suggesting that the various transgressions I claim to support are only okay if people transgress on my terms (i.e., according to my tastes).
Posted by thelyamhound http://thebayinghound.blogspot.com on October 2, 2009 at 2:02 PM · Report this
Scholar of violence 101
@99. The "N-words" analogy is weak at best. Just fess up and admit that you enjoyed dropping the N-bomb half a dozen times. A more appropriate analogy would be hypothesizing a eatery called "Anacondas" which employed only extremely fit and well endowed male servers wearing nothing but obscenely tight Speedos.

(Did I hear Dan Savage just exclaim "YES, IF ONLY!!!!")
Posted by Scholar of violence on October 2, 2009 at 2:16 PM · Report this
JF 102
@93 - Dropping three words from Pysch 101 does not make you Sigmund fucking Freud. Neither does ripping off his most basic concepts.

Posted by JF on October 2, 2009 at 2:21 PM · Report this
JF 103
@100 - After looking up the word "hectoring" I would like to apologize if that's how I came off. I wasn't trying to puff my chest and be a dick about it.

Except you 93, I was trying to be snarky with you.
Posted by JF on October 2, 2009 at 2:27 PM · Report this
104
#99, Lindy did not present the NIGGERS restaurant as though black people were being forced to work there. She never stated this. Your assumption is that they would have to have been forced to work there, because why would black people want to parade themselves around like slaves for the benefit of white people, regardless of how much money they could make from it.

And yet many women are willing, even happy, to parade themselves around like stereotypes for men. There are a lot of benefits that are offered to women who do this. That's how internalized sexism works.

To complicate things, supporting the choices of these women to do so has also been re-branded as "sex-positive" feminism, and feminists who don't agree with this self-exploitation are criticized as being anti-sex and judgmental of the women themselves. The reality is we aren't judging the women, but the issues surrounding the choices.

Specifically:

Sex-positive feminists focus on is the ability to accept themselves as sexual, which they only attain by presenting a version of themselves that others readily find acceptable and have since way before I was born. Would they feel so empowered by their sexuality if they didn’t have a receptive audience? Nothing new or challenging here.

We already have the ability to use our bodies to turn ourselves and other people on. What we don’t have is the control over showing our bodies in a non-sexual way, because whenever we take our clothes off, we’re sexualized. If I wanted to take my shirt off on a hot summer day I couldn't do so without being arrested or accosted. If I want to breast feed my baby in public, it's an issue for many people, because breasts=sex. Being able to control this distinction is central to having true control over your body & your sexuality, yet sex-positive feminists never talk about that, and they just present us with more lame burlesque acts and sad porn sites.

I was sexually assaulted on the street walking home from a club in my own neighborhood. I was sexually assaulted at a massage parlor in a fucking legitimate healthcare facility. I was felt up on the bus by a guy sitting next to me. This all happened in the space of a few years, all in Seattle, all in public places. How many straight men has this happened to? We aren't just whining. Our lives are actually affected by these issues, and it's really upsetting to see so many men brushing us off simply because they have no idea because they haven't dealt with it.
More...
Posted by here is my mini-essay on October 2, 2009 at 2:52 PM · Report this
thelyamhound 105
@103 - Don't worry about it; internet bravado is almost a redundancy.
Posted by thelyamhound http://thebayinghound.blogspot.com on October 2, 2009 at 3:00 PM · Report this
106
I once went to a Hooters with some gay male friends and a girl. The place was full of men trying to pick up the waitress. The waitress was extremely nice and spent most of the time chatting with us apparently happy to have customers who were not staring at her boobs. I felt sorry for her.

For the record, the Hooters mentioned in this article is just outside the borders of South Park.
Posted by eddix on October 2, 2009 at 3:01 PM · Report this
107
Ya know, Lindy. You are in more dire need of a blow job than any woman in history.
Posted by Roscinante on October 2, 2009 at 3:45 PM · Report this
108
@99 I don't think you are clarifying much there. The racist analogy is over-the-top period.

@101 has a much better analogy and actually there are probably plenty of gay bars with scantily clad male waiters that absolutely no one is outraged about.

Lindy's outrage and bogus analogy are essentially presenting straight-up 2nd-wave feminist doctrine regarding 'exploitation'. Not only is this anti-sex I would argue it is anti-feminist, a recycling of the deeply ingrained (in this society anyway) puritanical sexual double-standard in dubious feminist terms. Worth noting that said double-standard is probably fairly widely embraced by the yahoos that patronize Hooters.

Defeat sexism by perpetuating Neaderthalian attitudes in which the female slut is maligned and the male slut celebrated? I think most contemporary feminists under say 50 (save perhaps Lindy) can see the ludicrousness inherent in that idea.
Posted by Rhizome on October 2, 2009 at 4:33 PM · Report this
109
@104--you present one of the better criticisms of sex-positive feminism that I've read (although I'm not really all that well-read).

@107 It is ironic how well the comments to this article exemplify how sexism acts in our society. Many who attack the article do so by personalizing the attack as being about Lindy's sex--or lack of sex--or body--or lack of body. It would be absurd to try use a man's sexuality to dismiss their ideas. Too bad for those for whom this evidence would be illuminating are unlikely to be reading that carefully.
Posted by Another Andrew on October 2, 2009 at 4:59 PM · Report this
110
#108, your argument doesn't hold up. I went into detail in #104. There is no sexual double standard because in order for there to be a double standard, both genders would need to start out with equal footing.

Posted by Heard it before. on October 2, 2009 at 5:42 PM · Report this
111
And also, here is the full critique of 3rd wave, sex-positive feminism that I cut/pasted my comments @#104 from in case anyone is interested (I'm sure none of you are). This woman's entire blog is worth reading:

http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008…
Posted by lizz on October 2, 2009 at 6:14 PM · Report this
112
http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2008…
Posted by or here it is on October 2, 2009 at 6:16 PM · Report this
113
I know i'm coming late to this party, but there's a Hooters in my city -- and it smells terrible!

Horrible, rancid overcooked grease for a half block (yes, even more so than any other restaurant and fast food joint in the city.)

I went there once for a friend's child's birthday party (she thought it was ironic, for some reason.)

Other than the smell, my other problem with the place: the food, as advertised by the smell, was terrible. Ugh. Pantyhose with shorts and sneakers (apparently, not only are the poor girls' boobs not appealing enough without plastic enhancement, the legs of healthy young women are also not deemed attractive enough without some sort of plastic covering.)

Smelly, with bad food, and unattractively clad, plasticized young women waitresses -- I don't get the attraction of this "restaurant." Men, really? You'll go this far to get a fantasy of servile objectification?

But no doubt you could pull in the racists with a cotton pickin' good time, too.

Posted by judybrowni on October 2, 2009 at 6:16 PM · Report this
114
As for why young women are "happy" to work there -- there's one word: tips.

I have a friend who was making $200 a day as a waitress in a vacation aread, dressed scantily, getting pinched and hit on and what not, endlessly.

Was she happy to be pinched, hit on endlessly, um no. Did she like earning $200 a day? Yes, it put her through college.

She had to take a 50% cut at her first journalism job, which will give you an idea of why young women are "happy" to be objectified.

Being taken seriously, probably pays less, but eventually every young woman will move on.
Posted by judybrowni on October 2, 2009 at 6:23 PM · Report this
115
@110 hmm not too clear on how not starting out on equal footing means there is no double standard. The double standard is perfectly obvious and is as stated: the female slut is maligned (by puritans, fratboys and feminists of the 2nd wave alike, good company there), the male slut is celebrated.

In your argument you are essentially setting up a straw man (or straw woman) sex-positive feminist who 'never talks about' other bullshit puritanical aspects of our culture such as up tightness about breast-feeding or nudity in general. From what I have read most contemporary sex-positive feminists talk plenty about such issues and are generally highly critical of American prudery in all of its hideous manifestations.

Perpetuating the puritanical double standard by denigrating the slut, promoting sexual repression, just serves to perpetuate puritanical hang-ups in our society in general, hang-ups for instance like those related to women breast-feeding in public or going topless in parks.
Posted by Rhizome on October 2, 2009 at 6:25 PM · Report this
116
My Dear Lindy,

You are such a talented and hilarious writer. PLEASE don't EVER quit your job!!! Don't listen to the haters!!

I love how all these people are so busy defending the Hooters waitresses' work, but barely anyone on here is defending your work?

I am defending your work. I don't even care what you are writing about, I ALWAYS read your articles cause they are always intelligently written and incredibly funny!

Love,
M

Dear Assholes,

Lindy is ALSO just doing her job. Just like those Hooter's waitresses.

Yet, would you go to Hooters and tell your waitress that she "needs a blow job" or that she is "ugly" or "fat" or to "chill the fuck out" when she asks you if you needed anything else?

Have some respect, people!

Most of you probably have jobs, too. How would you like it if people made snarky comments about your graphic designs EVERY DAY? Or told you your haircuts were AWFUL or that you make the worst coffee in the world -- or that you should not do the one thing that you LOVE to do in life, whatever that is?

How can you decide to be one of those people? Look at yourself in the mirror, Jackasses. You've become the "internet-asshole". Congratulations.

And, in case you are wondering, YES - I would say this to your face, right after I smacked it - given the chance.

Internet-meanness is sooooo 2008.

Love,
Muffin

Posted by Star Jonz on October 2, 2009 at 7:05 PM · Report this
117
I know this has probably been said in the previous 116 comments, but it's not like anyone has to eat there, or people have to work there.

It exists because there is a market for this sort of thing. Just like Pioneer Square or Capitol Hill or Belltown or whatever other "brand" people associate themselves with. It's not for everyone. It's not for me, even. But, for those that enjoy it, let 'em have their fun. Wings and boobs aren't destroying America. Mad Rad is.
Posted by Casual_Observer on October 2, 2009 at 8:37 PM · Report this
118
#115, you didn't understand my argument. Obviously 3rd wave/sex pos. feminists also support things such as breast feeding in public, going topless, ect...

Here is a quote by a sex positive feminist that from the article I tried to link to (for the full blog & comments, including mine, you can google "The Evangelical Pro Life Guide to Sexy Feminism"):

"Sexy feminism (aka sex-positivism) isn’t about appealing to men and thus perpetuating the patriarchy through internalized sexism. It’s about claiming our own sexual pleasure and our own bodies. It’s about doing what we want despite the patriarchy. It’s about using our bodies for our own pleasure or to express our own thoughts, despite how you or anyone else interprets our bodies. We’re saying, ‘It’s my body and I get to decide how to use it.’”

And my argument is that women do not get to decide how to use their bodies. And that 3rd wave feminists do not acknowledge that this sense of control and empowerment that women feel is a false one until we are able to actually control when we do not want to be sexualized.

I am not a puritan, and I am not vilifying "the female slut." Jesus, I WAS a female slut. And I look at as much porn as the next person. I just don't acknowledge that it has any actual feminist value in the culture as it exists today.

I'm not anti-sex or anti-any of these places existing. I'm not anti-the women who choose to work at these places. I don't think it is even "slutty" for them to do so. I'm just saying we need to be more critical of why taking our clothes off makes us feel empowered, and whether we truly do have control over our sexuality. And being critical of the choices we make is not the same thing as being critical of the person for making them.

As for the double standard, you can't take two people with different background variables and hold them to the same standard. Men do not have the same problems controlling their sexuality as women do, therefore, when men take their clothes off none of the issues I mentioned above apply to them.

Ok, I will stop now for good because I have had this same argument about a million times and told myself never again...
More...
Posted by lizz on October 3, 2009 at 9:07 AM · Report this
119
#85 - you are full of shit.

Male here. Very good looking, tall, very well built, high intellect, great education, bright blue very pretty eyes, dresses well.

If you don't think my appearance/impression has not helped me many, many, many times - what planet are you on?

Of course men market themselves. Over and over and over. Just we lack the tits, but I do have the ass and the bulge.... and wear fitted trousers to make it all show well.

Get on the clue bus. Never been to Hooters, no plan to go. But, work is work. Hope some of these girls get a trick later on, and REALLY make some major money.... you bet, sex work is just work. Same as Hooters.
Posted by Coffee Guy on October 3, 2009 at 9:09 AM · Report this
120
good article albeit depressing.
Posted by datajunkie on October 3, 2009 at 9:29 AM · Report this
121
I know it's been asked before, but can someone clarify whether it'd still be sexist if it were men on display?

Also, I'm not convinced that restaurants can either represent or cause attitudes towards either men or women. I've seen some great all-male and all-female bands, and it doesn't make me think that all men (or all women) are musicians. I'd like to think that most people have a similar capacity to abstract the general away from what we're looking at in the immediate.

All in all, this seems like canned fake outrage. The place is cheesy as hell. Some people like it. If you don't, don't go. But handwringing over -ism's and is a little much.
Posted by also on October 3, 2009 at 10:43 AM · Report this
122
The most important thing I learned from this article is that Lindy is in need of some serious deep dicking.
Posted by Mr Mysogyny on October 3, 2009 at 1:29 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 123
Regarding the choice of the Hooters servers: The question of whether or not they choose to work at Hooters stems from whether they prefer the work there to something else less exploitive of their physical assets. My understanding of waitressing at Hooters is like service work anywhere else, it's still low-wage contingent work.

So, firstly, most workers in the contingent market take the first job that comes to them; they don't choose to work at Hooters, rather Hooters chooses them to work there.

Secondly, contingent work doesn't usually earn enough to count as sustenance income, requiring such workers to moonlight, apply for assistance, live in squalor or, in the case of Hooters employees, subject themselves to a pejorative environment. Their choice to work at Hooters is, hence, the least of a number of evils.

Thirdly, unless their base wage is significantly higher than similar service work in the same area (compared to, say Chevy's or TGI Friday's or The Olive Garden), then the choice to work there is for the opportunity to be exploited, a tip being the same thing as payment for performance. It's slightly less degrading than working at a topless bar. In fact, a burlesque house might be considered a step up since classy lingerie would count as a nicer uniform than the Hooter's attire.

Still, the presence of a place like Hooters in its current incarnation is not the problem, but the symptom of a bigger one, which is that at the entry-level pay range (which accounts for most jobs available) we don't pay a sustenance wage. Hence workers are often coerced to do for survival what they would not do if they had a choice to do otherwise.
More...
Posted by Uriel-238 on October 3, 2009 at 3:37 PM · Report this
Baconcat 124
I strayed back to meat a few times to eat at hooters. I enjoy the crowd of waitresses surrounding our table, avoiding the lewd straight men who don't tip.

My favorite was the one waitress who said "oh, my favorite night is when all the bears show up! I actually get tipped and they clean up after themselves if they spill beer!"
Posted by Baconcat on October 3, 2009 at 3:40 PM · Report this
125
wow, it's been very revealing to read the comments to this article. It's amazing how many people are threatened by a woman who is direct and open about pointing out a case of sexism in our culture (great article, by the way, Lindy West). Seattle just really isn't as "liberal" as it purports to be when it comes to women's issues, is it? For all of you who think that (1)a man who uses his looks to get what he wants or (2) the fact that an attractive man is treated better than an unattractive man are evidence that sexism works both ways: the point is that sexism, like racism don't function symmetrically. If we did not have a long history and culture of unequal power between black and white people and between men and women, and if we did not have a long history of viewing black people and women in certain ways, then perhaps that point would make sense. However, there are deeply entrenched views and expectations of both groups that are part of the psyche of everyone at the unconscious level. To give one example, we all have the image of a professor as an older white man, rather than a woman or a person of color.
Posted by ab on October 3, 2009 at 5:41 PM · Report this
126
Lindy, thank you for actually mentioning this bizarre aspect of our culture, which is for the most part taken for granted. (I also loved your "Big Pimpin" column of some time back.) Hugh Hefner has succeeded beyond his wildest dreams as his warped and shallow vision has become integrated into our society and into the minds of so many of our precious women and men and girls and boys.
Posted by Riz on October 3, 2009 at 6:43 PM · Report this
127
@118 you took the words out of my mouth.
Posted by please don't make me register on October 4, 2009 at 4:35 AM · Report this
128
I AM FURIOUS THAT THESE WOMYN ARE SUBJECTE TO THIS SORT OF TREAMENT AS A OUT AND PROUD MEMBER OF THE FQTBLG COMMUNITY I KNOW THE STING OF GENDER PAIN AND I CANT BELIEVE SEATTLE TOLERATES BUSINESSES SUCH AS THIS WHY THE STRANGER WOULD GIVE IT ANY PR IS BEYOND ME BUT LOOK AT WHAT THEY HAVE AT THE HELM WHY DONT THEY WRITE ABOUT THE GENOCIDE OF SACRED QUEER SPACE ON CAPITOL HILL WHICH IS THE DIRTY LITTLE SECRET THAT NO ONE AT THE STRANGER WILL TALK ABOUT WELL WHEN HIS PRECIOUS R PLACE IS TURNED INTO A TOYS R US I BET HIS TUNE WILL BE A DIFFERENT ONE
Posted by PISSED OFF QUEER on October 4, 2009 at 7:42 AM · Report this
129
regardless of actual content and the arguing here, this is the first article in a reallllllly long times that I actually LAUGHED while reading. Nice to see some fresh voice!
Posted by pppk on October 4, 2009 at 11:10 AM · Report this
130
WING DOME ROCKS!!!!! Seriously, if they have good food, it doesn't matter what the waitstaff looks like. If you want good wings- go to wing dome. if you want to look at boobies and eat wings but not (necessarily?) support mobsters- go to Hooters.
Posted by mmmm....wing dome on October 4, 2009 at 11:29 AM · Report this
benjammin509 131
So-called hip clothing stores that cater to rich white kids (A&F, Hollister, ...) always hire "models" to work at the store. It's no different than Hooters.

Additionally, I've always heard that Hooters flies in the top talent to work the opening of stores, then after a few weeks the local, and less bouncy women take over.

Hooters is a shit show, but it's nothing worth get riled up about.
Posted by benjammin509 on October 4, 2009 at 12:19 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 132
PISSED OFF QUEER's comment fixed for legibility:

I am furious that these women are subjected to this sort of treatment. as a out and proud member of the [lgbt] community i know the sting of gender pain. I cant believe Seattle tolerates businesses such as this. Why the Stranger would give it any PR is beyond me. But, look at what they have at the helm; why don't they write about the genocide of sacred queer space on Capitol Hill? [This is] the dirty little secret that no one at the Stranger will talk about. Well, when his precious place is turned into a Toys R Us, I bet his tune will be a different one.
Posted by Uriel-238 on October 4, 2009 at 12:32 PM · Report this
133
This was the ultimate in bad Stranger articles: sneering, condescending, and all about the poor, oppressed writer.

Twenty years ago, my fellow students and I bemoaned the coming of a Hooters to our liberal college town. The town survived, and the Hooters may have, too, albeit without our money.

I've never stepped inside a Hooters. I don't like fried food, I don't like excess testosterone amongst my fellow diners, and I know what using sex appeal means in a restaurant: the management thinks their food is not all that great. I defer to their judgement on that last point.

If the wait staff has any brains, they'll pretend to like you. That goes for any restaurant on the planet. Had our writer referred to her waiter as "Attentive Working Woman", instead of the demeaning term she chose, how would the rest of the article appeared?

Some of us get easy jobs, like typing about stuff. Others have to haul ass and hustle for tips. We in the former class should not denigrate our fellow humans in the latter class.
Posted by tensor on October 5, 2009 at 12:09 AM · Report this
SofiaSabotage 134
This is a tough one for me.

When I visited Hooters in San Francisco I didn't like it. It wasn't because of the girls but because the food sucked. Plain & simple.

The tough part for me is because I hate being a judgmental person but when it comes to the employees at Hooters (or any girl "like that")... I just can't help but think how stupid they are. One because they would put themself through a demeaning position. Two because fake boobs SCREAM to me, "high maintenance & stupid".... But then again, what if they're putting themselves through school? What if they are really intelligent human beings that view it as "just another job"?

I think about what I do on a daily basis & that's make coffee for the masses. Some times I flirt to get better tips & wear low cut shirts. I'm hit on time and time again. And most of our patrons are men. So what's the difference? I have REAL conversations with these people. Sure, I flirt but I talk to them about how I'm an "artist", putting myself through school, an activist, a music lover, etc. I don't think Hooters allows this to happen (if the girls even have this as apart of their life)...

But hey, if you're going there just to look at boobs. Then go for it! Don't expect anything further than that. You don't go to a strip club expecting a full on conversation about philosophy, right?
Posted by SofiaSabotage http://www.flickr.com/sabotagedesigns on October 5, 2009 at 10:01 AM · Report this
135
So basically Lindy West is a fun-hating bitch? She'll deny it and say "I just didn't like Hooters," just like she'll say "I just didn't like (insert awesome thing here)" every time an awesome thing comes around. No, seriously, look it up. Every time she jizzes her pants about something it's always about either the dumbest topics ever or something that really doesn't deserve it, but good luck trying to find even those since she never jizzes her pants.

Lindy West, fuck you and your condescension. You and your Capitol Hill clusterfuck buddies can all blow it out your stick-filled collective asses.
Posted by on October 5, 2009 at 4:33 PM · Report this
136
Lindy's writing rarely fails to make me laugh. This article was no exception.
Posted by I hate logging in. on October 5, 2009 at 6:42 PM · Report this
6 137
Lindy is probably one of my favorite writers at the Stranger right now. I'm actually surprised by how defensive people are getting in the comments over...Hooters...

Lindy doesn't like hooters.
Hooters still exists.
The wings are gross.
If you like it, go.
If you don't, don't.

Keep it up, Lindy.
Posted by 6 on October 5, 2009 at 9:51 PM · Report this
138
I dont care about Hooters either, but man is the Stanger a bunch of elitist a-holes. You have to judge everything in the world? No one can enjoy anything unless it is hipster approved by the Stranger I guess. Fascists.
Posted by ZBO on October 6, 2009 at 9:02 AM · Report this
139
@38 - The name Cucumbers is pretty hilarious. Good one.

To Lindy - funny as always!

To Paul - well written as always!
Posted by SaraAW on October 6, 2009 at 11:18 AM · Report this
140
Come to Buffalo and have some Real wings. And the only titties are on the fat Italian guys cooking them.
Posted by bryanwhite5858 on October 6, 2009 at 11:34 AM · Report this
141
I find this article entirely condescending and spiteful; it is somehow more objectifying and exploitative than the concept of hooters in the first pace. Truly, right out of the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" school of 'anti'-bigotry rhetoric.
Posted by fetish on October 6, 2009 at 12:59 PM · Report this
142
Oh puh-leeze. I don't care if Lindy is a good writer or not, I'm not a "hater" but she sounds like she is. C'mon, the double standard is disgusting. It's not about Hooters or how good or bad the food or "environment" is, it's totally dissing the poor girl who works there. A gay man can shove a pony keg up his ass and it's A-OK cuz we're all about not judging but put on a push-up and some skimpy shorts for a job and your "Professor Boobies". I was in a Hooters a couple of months back and I had a blast, because I know how to have fun. The waitress was cute and bubbly and working her cute little ass off putting herself through school (and making bank in the process), trying to not let the dirt bags who don't understand boundaries get her down while putting up with chauvinist women who put her down for where she works. So Lindy, you're a "too hip to live" Seattlite, what's your opine of women owned Lust Lady? Oh no, that wouldn't be "cool" to dis the women that work there because it's all "woman positive" and it would be all wrong to refer to someone working there as "Professor How Many Freakin' Kids Has She Had".
Posted by Calling BS on October 6, 2009 at 2:27 PM · Report this
143
I found this article to be disgusting, particularly the second to last paragraph which is blatantly racist. I don't understand how you can equate Hooters to over 200 years of oppression and violence towards African Americans. Really low class. I'm not a fan of Hooters but to each their own. Yes, it is blatantly sexual and some may find it demeaning but have you ever looked at the last few pages of The Stranger? I hope you understand where your paycheck comes from.
Posted by blank on October 6, 2009 at 2:29 PM · Report this
144
OK, When I went to Hooters their food was BAD and personally I perfectly understand the fake boob fetish (its not that they don't care; its that they prefer them). Because, I suspect, women with real boobs tend to get rolly polly with time and real boob are affected by gravity.
Give the waitresses their due, thier job has got to be hard (selling all that bad food and acting like its edible, trying to act/look sexy in those hideous outfits) but please I do not see the lure of fake boobs on haggish women with fake tans and too much makeup on (that's probably why they cropped the pic). That's just me, though.

As a restaurant review, this told us all we need to know, whatever your preference. And isn't that what a review is all about?
Posted by jojo on October 6, 2009 at 2:49 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 145
Oh, good Goddess, people, Hooters is no more good clean fun than was The Dukes of Hazzard. If you're okay with the sexism, then please feel free to patronize Hooters, but it is sexist. Hooters does objectify, and the sooner we get over ourselves and admit that a dash of Tabasco gives the wings that extra zing, the better we're all going to be.

Last I checked around here on SLOG, sex was more than a labor of duty we did as an expression of the love we have for our partner's soul and intellect. We have sex because it's fun, because it feels good, and because human bodies are hot. Hence, we objectify every time we lust. Feminism isn't about reducing the female human body to a life support system for a respectible mind, any more than same-sex marriage is about securing special rights for gays. Feminism is about celebrating body, mind, and soul of womankind. It's about recognizing your female paramour is an equal participant in the sex your having with her.

That said, there's nothing wrong in creating a place that celebrates boobage. Titties are a fabulous part of some really awesome folk. But to erect such a shrine we don't need to resort to traditional stereotypes, or by minimizing the other aspects of femaledom, and these are offenses perpetuated by Hooters (it seems tongue to some degree in cheek), for better or worse.

Lindy, I enjoyed every word.

blank @143, do you have an understanding of feminist history? No, Hooters isn't in itself comparable to the atrocities committed against the black slaves in America, and their descendants, but the atrocities throughout history committed against women worldwide are a level of magnitude greater than all those done in the name of race-based slavery. Women have only recently started attaining rights similar to men in civil parts of the world. They've been regarded as property far longer than has the men of any race.
More...
Posted by Uriel-238 on October 6, 2009 at 6:56 PM · Report this
146
I could almost (note - ALMOST) overlook the obvious and disgusting sexism promoted by Hooters if the food was at least better than average. Since the food is ordinary (at best) then the half clad buxom waitresses are the obvious draw and the crowd seems to be made up of hormonal frat-boys and middle aged fat-boys. Thanks but I'll get my food at a real restaurant and my porn from the internet.
Posted by cMarks on October 7, 2009 at 6:04 AM · Report this
147
Why is the Stranger sex-worker friendly but willing to post a negative review of Hooters? Maybe because sex workers are more honest. They are selling sex, period. Hooters is masquerading as a restaurant. I once had a boyfriend who wanted to take me on a date to Hooters. He couldn't understand why I did not consider it an appropriate place to take a date! I am now married to a very different man who appreciates nice restaurants and understands what the word "appropriate" means.

As for complaints that the photo somehow disrespects or dehumanizes the Hooters woman...isn't that the look she was (or her employers were) going for? Like it or not, people do judge you by how you present yourself. You wear a top with your boobs hanging out and no one will care to look at your face. Believe it or not, there are ways to dress that look sexy without looking cheap. Hooters obviously isn't interested in a look for their waitresses that is "humanizing" or respectful - so why blame the photographer?

As for pro-Hooters screetchers, just because you like Hooters doesn't mean everyone has to. So your favorite restaurant got a bad review - so what?
Posted by Diagoras on October 7, 2009 at 7:39 AM · Report this
LadyofPlantDeath 148
Derp derp derp. Buuut I l-ah-kuh my Hooturrz wings. They come wit' dem titeez. Hooze this fat feminist whor' to be goin' on 'bout dem titeez been' bad. 'Sho nuff them wimminz lahk what they be doin 'cuz they gets paid fer it.

An' don' even get meh started on dem' naggerz'
S'cuse me while ah go beat my wyfe an' ordurr mor wingz.

^And that children, is the majority of the Hooters fanbase.
Posted by LadyofPlantDeath on October 7, 2009 at 2:39 PM · Report this
Bonefish 149
1 and 2: You don't have to go to a hooters to experience their not-so-hot wings. Just dip some stale chicken into some bland ketchup. Maybe add a little extra vinegar to the ketchup if you want to split hairs. And invite a bunch of fat college republicans with pencil-thin douchebag beards into your house to eat them with you.

I'm fine with actual strip clubs, but hooters just irks me for some reason. I think it's like the author of the footnotes said; they're selling it off as a "family values" restaurant. That, and all the "shooting my dumb blonde nag wife in the face" jokes plastered on the walls make it way creepier than a simple strip club. "Misogyny theme park" was a pretty astute description of the place. All the cliched, often-invalid complaints about strip clubs ("it's objectifying! It's misogynist! The women are desperate and are being exploited!") all seem to apply to hooters.

It's not just for guys that want to see a nice pair of tits. It's for guys that like to say creepy shit to waitstaff without them rolling their eyes or kicking them out of the restaurant. I think there's a significant difference between those two types of patrons.
Posted by Bonefish http://5bmisc.blogspot.com/ on October 8, 2009 at 11:45 AM · Report this
150
THE question: Why would you send a woman to review a new Hooters restaurant?

THE no-brainer answer: You wouldn't.
Posted by ihacker69 on October 8, 2009 at 2:30 PM · Report this
151
There was a Hooters here that opened up right smack in the middle of the food court at the mall. About 10 years ago - It went out of business in a shockingly brief time and all the fake boobs had to find honest work at the titty bars on the north side. On the up side, there have never been so many great places for chicken wings!
Posted by anonymousone on October 9, 2009 at 8:41 AM · Report this
(still) Grrrl 152
Lindy, again awesome article. Keep 'em coming.

I was just skimming it and remembering the Hooter's in my former home town (Reno, NV) and remembering what a gay friend of mine said after a forced visit there with his co-workers: "And I don't know what was up with the shit-colored nylons?!"

If we feminists wanted to dissect this creepy restaurant further, we might ask: Why are most of the waitresses (fake) blondes and yet their nylons are freakishly dark? Are they supposed to be black from the ass down?!!

What is up with that???
Posted by (still) Grrrl http://heartseamonkeys.blogspot.com/ on October 9, 2009 at 10:20 AM · Report this
153
You morons who bash Hooters are some of the most narrow-minded, dense idiots I've ever come across. I'm going to blow all of your ASSumptions out of the water with some facts and logic.

First, I will address those who claim that Hooters perpetrates sexism. My response to that is that you have obviously never been to Hooters. The waitresses wear more clothing than some of the ladies you see at the beach or in high school. Hooters Girls are far more mature and genuine than strippers or prostitutes. You can actually get to know the lovely Hooters Girls personally.

Another thing you need to keep in mind is that Hooters does not encourage sexual harassment. Yes, the ladies do wear tank tops and short shorts, but that's part of the work uniform. Try tapping one of them on the ass or make an obscene comment, and you'll get your ass hauled out so quickly you'll feel like Bruce Lee kicked you in the face. Also, you can't have pictures taken with Hooters servers unless you ask them for their permission first.

Here's a section from the About Hooters section on their official site that explains their sexual harassment policy:

"Hooters of America, Inc. has taken a pro-active lead in the industry addressing issues raised by individual acts of sexual harassment. Hooters of America, Inc., like all responsible corporations, deplores such acts and prohibits this behavior in the workplace. The company has a long-standing non-harassment policy forbidding unwelcome physical or verbal behavior, and specifically mentions sexual harassment. This policy includes a confidential reporting system for complaints, including a toll-free phone number. Since 1983, Hooters has employed over 250,000 Hooters Girls, and while even one incident is too many, this large number of employees, compared to the limited number of sexual harassment lawsuits filed, indicates this policy works."

Secondly, to the morons who call Hooters waitresses "stupid and desperate," you couldn't be any wronger. Many of the servers who work at the local Hooters where I go, as well as other locations, are responsible and putting themselves through college. It's no different from working at Applebee's or Chili's to pay for college, except that Hooters is more fun, has better food, and sexier waitresses.

Hooters Girls are a lot smarter than than you pablum pukers think. Many of the ones I know are working towards degrees in such fields as Cryptology, Business, and Health Science. Some have already graduated and are just working at Hooters until they feel the time is right to pursue their goals in life. I'm willing to bet hard cold cash that most Hooters servers are smarter than any of you losers.

Third, and finally, to the losers who insinuate that all Hooters customers are illiterate, uneducated hillbillies, get off your high horse. I happen to be a 21-year old college student who's smart, handsome, and working towards a degree in Communications. I'm already writing for my college's newspaper as a way of preparing for my career.

Now that I'm done shutting up all of you small-minded critics, let's recap my main points: Hooters does not perpetuate sexism or misogyny, the ladies who work there are hard-working, responsible women who voluntarily choose to work at Hooters, and not all of the customers are unintelligent, racist inbreds. I doubt anyone will have the courage or guts to refute me because I know I'm right and that there is nothing I've said that can be proven wrong.
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Posted by HootersFan on October 9, 2009 at 4:23 PM · Report this
154
Hey David Foster Wallace, footnotes are annoying.
Posted by matt! on October 9, 2009 at 8:20 PM · Report this
155
I would like to apologize. That was trollish. I mostly just wanted to demonstrate how smart I am because I am familiar with "Consider the Lobster". Your footnotes are fine and they add to the piece.
Posted by matt! on October 9, 2009 at 8:45 PM · Report this
156
#67
You're right. These women aren't forced into getting boob jobs but societal pressure does play a part.
I knew a girl in high school (a pretty, blond, cheerleader) whose mom offered to buy her a nose job for her 16th birthday. As you know, teenagers are usually insecure. And her mother had gotten one when she was a teenager and was buying her one for her birthday, so of course she got one.
Afterwards, everyone complimented her on her new nose. I, privately, thought she was prettier before. One day, she confided in me that she regretted getting it done and now it was too late.

I'm sure many of these women love their new breasts. But I would bet that there are women at Hooters who regret their boob jobs. And it's places like Hooters that perpetuate the myth that a bump in your nose and small breasts are aberrations.

In terms of the comparison to The Stranger's apparent dissing of Hooters while supporting sex workers. I see a distinction. At Hooters, the women make themselves conform to Hooters' standard of beauty. The burlesque dancers I love to watch craft their own dances and decide how much to reveal. Their dances are a celebration of their own sexuality. Hooters is a celebration of the men's sexuality, not the women's.
Posted by Brooklyngirl http://www.babbosbooks.com on October 10, 2009 at 11:39 AM · Report this
157
Way to go, Lindy...fair piece, mate...but you are like being far too bourgeois timid..if you're going to write gonzo push it over the fucking edge, for chrissake.
I mean for anyone working at Hooters it's gotta be like stuck on an elevator of horse shit trapped between the fifth and sixth layers of Dante's Paradise Lost. You never even tried to get inside their effing skulls for fuck sake..
Sam, The Emotional Cripple and your biggest fan.
Posted by Sam, The Emotional Cripple on October 10, 2009 at 9:31 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 158
I'm sorry, HootersFan @153, am I hearing you right? You're saying that the degree to which women are clothed serves as a measure of sexism? By that one might infer the nations under Sharia law, some regions of which are debating if women must conceal an eye lest they beguile men with both, are not sexist after all. Not so much.

And you were saying the iron-wrought sexual harassment policies of Hooters is indicative of respect for women? I suppose it is the way barricades are an indication of respect for bears or other fierce megafauna at the zoo. Those are there to protect the company from litigation, should patrons of the place act inappropriately towards the servers. Similarly, most men's magazines that feature nude modeling spreads have rigid limits of interaction between the models and the photography crew, not that photographers are generally in appropriate towards their models, but it would take one case, and a decency-minded judge to kill a magazine, if not the industry. Similarly, Hooters has to demonstrate a more-than-adequate level of responsiveness, if someone gets out of hand. Indeed, the barricades may be policy and bouncers, rather than steel bars, but they're there.

Regarding the servers "just trying to put themselves through college", this is commonplace nation wide, and as I mentioned in a previous post, above, contingency work on its own isn't enough to earn a sustainable living, let alone put someone through college, and it shouldn't be that way. Yes, many strippers, too, are putting themselves through college. No, we weren't saying that servers are stupid, but they are selling out some of their own integrity by working for a company that sees them as the commodity, and that creates a space that endorses and condones this view.

As for actually knowing something about your given server, it is assuredly, an act. Oh, they may not change their favorite color or their college major or their hometown like a character from a TV script (though some do), but the bright and bubbly that entertains you at your booth is the very brightest and bubbliest that the poor girl can squeeze out of her juggy corpus and outgoing personality, because it's all about how much you're going to pay her in gratuity once you settle your bill. Rest assured that your server, once you've determined how much to tip her, doesn't want to see you again until you're back for another round of eating and tipping. She's not, in the meantime, going to fall in love with you or become your girlfriend no matter how many times you patronize the place on her shift, or tip her fifty percent.

Why are they so desperate? That's because the high prices they charge for those hot wings don't cover a decent wage, not enough to put a girl through college, or to get her out of her efficiency into a proper apartment, or to even escape from under the thumb of her abusive boyfriend back to her parents. No, they rely on their customers giving them 20%-30% rather than the customary 15% to actually change their lives enough to where they never have to work at a place like Hooters again. I wouldn't call those girls stupid. Some might be; some are certainly not. I would say they're caught in that same contingency work trap that cages about forty percent of our nation's workforce. (Last I checked. It might be higher since the crash.) And I hope every last one escapes that pit.

In the meantime, as a 21 year old college student, I think you're exactly the demographic to whom Hooters caters, since you still can be impressed with the idea that Hooters girls are what women are really like, in contrast to the naked apes that we all are. The sooner you figure that out, the sooner you'll be getting laid on a regular basis.

Or, you can keep patronizing places like Hooters, who feed you the fantasy with their curly fries, but the longer you hold out on the idea that women are (or should be) buxom and bubbly all the time, the longer you're going to be disappointed when it comes to the real world. Remember to tip them well. They need it.

It's not too late to get a life, dude.
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Posted by Uriel-238 on October 11, 2009 at 2:19 AM · Report this
159
Uriel-238, I'm going to have so much fun tearing apart your lame rebuttal.

First off, the servers with whom I have made friends are not acting friendly just so that they can get higher tips. If that's what you ASSume, then why did my favorite Hooters waitress go out of her way to buy all the decorations for my 21st birthday party there? How come she bought me a birthday card? Why did all my friends there create and sign 2 happy birthday poster boards for me? You can't answer any of these questions because you don't know me or the servers who work at my local Hooters. Take your idiotic ASSumptions and shove them up your ass, you uninformed moron.

Secondly, Hooters does not just cater to the college demographic. Every time I go in there to dine, which is once a week, I see a very diverse range of people. There are families, dating/married couples, soldiers who are home on leave, senior citizens, college students, businessmen, and bikers, just to name a few of the many demographics to whom Hooters caters. Have you even been to Hooters? If not, then that would explain why you ASSume that the only people who go there are single male college students.

Third, the prices for meals at Hooters are not very expensive. For example, every Wednesday you can get the Wingsday platter. It includes 10 boneless wings, curley fries, and your choice of ranch or bleu cheese. This lunch is for the incredibly low price of $5.99. Now if you don't consider that a great bargain, then your priorities are screwed up big time. My local Hooters started running this special back February of this year, and it's been a major success.

Fourth, I never said anything about the degree to which women are dressed serving as a measure of sexism. My point is that Hooters servers are not synonymous with strippers and prostitutes. They wear more clothes than strippers or prostitutes. Hooters Girls are comfortable with their own sexuality and have no problems working there. They are mature, independent women who work there by their own accord. It's not like as if they get abducted, tied by their wrists and ankles, and are forced to work at Hooters against their own will.

Fifth, and finally, I already have a life. I go to college classes 5 days a week, volunteer at an animal shelter once a week, and have achieved a lot so far. I'm a member of Phi Theta Kappa, have a 3.62 GPA, and have also placed on the Dean's List. Last time I checked, people who don't have lives don't have credentials like those. You better be careful who you talk to like that. One of these days, you might just be liable to spew your crap to the wrong person and end up in the emergency room.

In the meantime, while I continue to enjoy my trips to Hooters and succeed in the world, you and your fellow anti-Hooters pals will dwindle in numbers. You cling to archaic, 12-century beliefs that all the logical, reasonable people have rejected. Hooters will outlast all you pablum pukers in the long run. If you don't want me to further embarrass you, then don't reply to any of my future posts.
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Posted by HootersFan on October 11, 2009 at 12:58 PM · Report this
160
Uriel-238, I'm going to have so much fun tearing apart your lame rebuttal.

First off, the servers with whom I have made friends are not acting friendly just so that they can get higher tips. If that's what you ASSume, then why did my favorite Hooters waitress go out of her way to buy all the decorations for my 21st birthday party there? How come she bought me a birthday card? Why did all my friends there create and sign 2 happy birthday poster boards for me? You can't answer any of these questions because you don't know me or the servers who work at my local Hooters. Take your idiotic ASSumptions and shove them up your ass, you uninformed moron.

Secondly, Hooters does not just cater to the college demographic. Every time I go in there to dine, which is once a week, I see a very diverse range of people. There are families, dating/married couples, soldiers who are home on leave, senior citizens, college students, businessmen, and bikers, just to name a few of the many demographics to whom Hooters caters. Have you even been to Hooters? If not, then that would explain why you ASSume that the only people who go there are single male college students.

Third, the prices for meals at Hooters are not very expensive. For example, every Wednesday you can get the Wingsday platter. It includes 10 boneless wings, curley fries, and your choice of ranch or bleu cheese. This lunch is for the incredibly low price of $5.99. Now if you don't consider that a great bargain, then your priorities are screwed up big time. My local Hooters started running this special back February of this year, and it's been a major success.

Fourth, I never said anything about the degree to which women are dressed serving as a measure of sexism. My point is that Hooters servers are not synonymous with strippers and prostitutes. They wear more clothes than strippers or prostitutes. Hooters Girls are comfortable with their own sexuality and have no problems working there. They are mature, independent women who work there by their own accord. It's not like as if they get abducted, tied by their wrists and ankles, and are forced to work at Hooters against their own will.

Fifth, and finally, I already have a life. I go to college classes 5 days a week, volunteer at an animal shelter once a week, and have achieved a lot so far. I'm a member of Phi Theta Kappa, have a 3.62 GPA, and have also placed on the Dean's List. Last time I checked, people who don't have lives don't have credentials like those. You better be careful who you talk to like that. One of these days, you might just be liable to spew your crap to the wrong person and end up in the emergency room.

In the meantime, while I continue to enjoy my trips to Hooters and succeed in the world, you and your fellow anti-Hooters pals will dwindle in numbers. You cling to archaic, 12-century beliefs that all the logical, reasonable people have rejected. Hooters will outlast all you pablum pukers in the long run. If you don't want me to further embarrass you, then don't reply to any of my future posts.
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Posted by HootersFan on October 11, 2009 at 1:01 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 161
Well, HootersFan @, with credentials like those (deans list, in a fraternity, listed GPA, volunteer work, "credentials") strutted out like a Dodge Viper, you certainly seem to have a lot to prove. You'd sound more secure if you weren't so readily calling me an uninformed moron (though granted, I've been insulted with far worse on SLOG) and making sideways threats of assault and battery. Not only does someone as credentialed as you have too much to lose by thinking with your fists, but you should already know by now an argumentum ad baculum weakens your position.

It sounds like your favorite Hooters waitress is a sweet girl. But I can't answer your questions because I don't know enough about the circumstances around your twenty-first birthday. It could be that you go there often enough, and are familiar enough a face that they decided to spring for your birthday. It could be your relationship with her is that rare exception and she really is sweet on you. (Has she given you her phone number?) It could be that since the twenty-first birthday is regarded as full adulthood in the US, i.e. the first day you can legally drink and gamble, hence this is the standard response to anyone who plans to turn 21 at Hooters.

What surprises me, dude, is that if you're in college, why are you relying so purely on personal anecdotal evidence (i.e. the folks you see at your hooters, the deals you can get on Wednesdays, etc.) Like any other restaurant chain or franchise, prices change from region to region. Heck, the local prices here in San Francisco change depending on the district, let alone which side of the bay I'm on. A $6 meal near the Japan center will cost ten or more downtown (not two miles away) in the commercial and financial districts. Since our Hooters is at Fisherman's Wharf, or tourism central, rest assured I won't be seeing your Wednesday special there for the same price.

I already discussed above how, in our nation's economy (for the last eight years) the choice whether or not to work at Hooters (or at any other contingent job) is dubious. While it's not as bad as outright impressment, it's not exactly a choice free of contingencies. I doubt any Hooters girl wouldn't be happier working somewhere else, in a laboratory or on an executive floor, if not a Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer lot. I'm sure that not all of them sign the required affirmation without some hesitation.

Incidentally, there's a difference between inference and actually saying something. For someone in college with such high marks, you don't seem very bright. Maybe you'd do better if you were more inclined to actually read and think about what is being said if you weren't so desperate to tear apart my lame rebuttal or defend Hooters as some kind of modern-era Elysium. You're in college, dude. Make that education work for you!
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Posted by Uriel-238 on October 11, 2009 at 4:15 PM · Report this
162
I've been to Ni**er's, seriously, the food was excellent, try the cornbread. It's off I-20 west of Tuscaloosa heading toward Misissippi. I think they may actually cook some in open hearth still?
When I was taken I was still a little too young and naive to get the full implication of OMG this is, like totally, the willfull capitalist reinforcement of society's need to subjugate while reducing the scope of past misdeeds by transferal status. I do remember the the tea was awesome. But the mami headbands??
SYGIGH
Posted by SYGIGH on October 11, 2009 at 6:45 PM · Report this
163
Oh yeah,
and Uriel... don't fuck with the Dukes of Hazzard, that was one (1) fine ass, a well paid ass. It does not compare with the institutionalized stupidity on the scale of Hooters. Just sayin.
Posted by SYGIGH on October 11, 2009 at 6:51 PM · Report this
164
Now hold it right there, Mr. Pseudo-Intellectual. I never said that I would personally come kick your ass. What I said was, and I quote myself, "You better be careful who you talk to like that. One of these days, you might just be liable to spew your crap to the wrong person and end up in the emergency room." I am not prone to violence, so I have no desire to come find you and beat you up. What I meant by that post was, someday you might meet a person face-to-face, try to talk like a smartass to them the way you have to me, and find yourself on the ground counting the clouds in the sky. Therein lies the difference. Funny how you tell me how to learn to read, and yet you go right ahead and take my words out of context. In other words, a classic case of do-as-I-say, not-as-I-do.

Some of the waitresses who work at the Hooters where I live, as well as at other locations I'm sure, have other jobs to support themselves. Some are single and love it. Some live on their own without their parents. You said earlier, and I quote, "Why are they so desperate? That's because the high prices they charge for those hot wings don't cover a decent wage, not enough to put a girl through college, or to get her out of her efficiency into a proper apartment, or to even escape from under the thumb of her abusive boyfriend back to her parents." What you have done here is make 4 different assumptions. And do you know what happens when you make assumptions. You make an ASS of U and ME!

You also took me to task for using anecdotes in my argument. Actually, according to one of my professors, it helps to relate personal anecdotes or stories to help prove your point. The textbook for that course also reflects this point. Yes, the prices may be different from state to state, but the differences are probably very minor at best. Either way, there are far more expensive restaurants than Hooters, in my area and elsewhere (e.g. 99, Bugaboo Creek).

Lastly, I fail to see how Hooters treats women any worse than some of the countries in the Middle East, like Saudi Arabia. You should be protesting them instead of a place like Hooters. Hooters doesn't kill or hurt women physically or mentally. They are allowed to be individuals and live their own lives without interference. Oh, and BTW, not all Hooters waitresses have breast implants. Many of them have natural cleavage and don't wear much make-up. I know you didn't directly post that, but you did comment, and I quote, "but the longer you hold out on the idea that women are (or should be) buxom and bubbly all the time." It's a common misconception that in order for a woman to be a Hooters waitress, she either needs to have large boobs or get implants. To be honest, I don't even notice their cleavage most of the time. I'm a leg man, so if there's any part of the female anatomy that I'm going to look at frequently, it's her legs. But if a woman wants to check out my body, I'm comfortable with that. You see, I don't objectify women, I appreciate their physical beauty.

I honestly don't know who I dislike more: Lindy, for having Puritanical, fascist views on the Hooters concept, or you for actually agreeing with her. Both of you would have fit perfectly in with the Puritans in New England, the Nazis in Germany, or the Communists in the Soviet Union. Your views are so backwards it's ridiculous.
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Posted by HootersFan on October 11, 2009 at 7:02 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 165
Wow. You actually called Lindy's views puritanical and fascist, and even then crossed the Godwin threshold. Are you a sophomore on a sports scholarship? Have you constructed a debatable position in your life?

This is the second time you've not been able to discern the difference between statements and subtext. The reason I called your threat sideways is that threats are usually inferred or implied. A mobster never says I want $100,000 or I'll burn down your business, rather he'll word it I don't yet feel your appreciation of the circumstances. It'd be unfortunate if an...accident were to befall your business. Similarly, the president doesn't tell Iran Stop enriching uranium immediately, or America will bring upon you the fury of God's thunder., rather he suggests If we don't see signs of cooperation from Iran, we'll have to consider...alternatives.

In that context, your threat above is clear: if you had access to my face, you'd be inclined to rearrange it. This is even more apparent given to your free use of outward derision, eg. You morons who bash Hooters are some of the most narrow-minded, dense idiots I've ever come across. (First line), pablum pukers, losers, etc. In contrast, the smartassery quotient of my replies is almost nil; hardly worthy of implied threats or calls to fisticuffs. No, your statement You better be careful who you talk to like that. One of these days, you might just be liable to spew your crap to the wrong person and end up in the emergency room. still rings of being a personal threat; albeit, an implied one.

Last I checked, anecdotes are great for bringing statistical cause and effect to the personal level, very much like the technique of posing stereotypical examples to add color to an explanation, but it is a dangerous (albeit commonplace) fallacy to assume that one's personal experience reflects what is typical of the circumstances. Of course, I only had an English minor, so what do I know? But for example, as a society, we're far more afraid for our children of strangers in the bushes than friends and relatives. And indeed, sometimes kids are abducted by strangers. Statistically, however, the gross majority of child abductees and victims of predators are transgressed by people they know (or in sadder cases, people they knew). Similarly, thanks to the incident at Columbine in 1999, we're terrified for our kids of school shootings, though statistically our schools are safer than ever.

Interestingly, you illustrated my point when you noted that some of the waitresses who work at the Hooters where I live... have other jobs to support themselves. demonstrating that these girls cannot sustain their own livelihood on their Hooters paycheck. The frequency of moonlighting is an indicator of economic decay, namely under-employment or under-compensation. It brings me back to wondering how many of these girls, given the opportunity to switch venues for equal pay, would be inclined to take it. (That's rhetorical. I don't think you, nor anyone here can effectively answer that.)

I'm not sure what you think Lindy and I believe that is comparable to the beliefs of Stalin or Himmler, but I'd like to know. I never said Hooters was a sin against the Earth, but that its existence in its present form is symptomatic of bigger problems within our nation. And yes, I do think it does thrive on and promote 20th century sexism, which I think, as one who pursues degenderization of society, is a shame.
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Posted by Uriel-238 on October 11, 2009 at 9:04 PM · Report this
166
It's not the displaying of boobs that bother me. It's the weird-assed un-naturally dark pantyhose. Wearing those is cruel and unusual punishment!

I didn't think the article was particularly well-written. Most awkward phrasing... "...if a Hooters restaurant can be said to become "more depressing," this has occurred."
Posted by ggg on October 15, 2009 at 9:59 AM · Report this
167
Alright Uriel, this is why I consider Lindy's views as well as yours to be fascistic and puritanical. You consider a perfectly harmless and safe restaurant chain like Hooters to be sexist and misogynistic. Now, Lindy has experienced Hooters for herself already, so she isn't making any pre-conceived notions about the business. However, she has accused Hooters of being a "misogyny theme park," which is an entirely baseless claim. Misogyny refers to an irrational hatred, fear, or dislike of women. Lindy chose her words incorrectly because Hooters is not preaching hatred of women or the genocide of them. Now really, if Hooters actually perpetuated misogyny, do you think it would be allowed to exist? Of course not. Hooters does not encourage violence against women or treat them like inferior human beings. The waitresses choose to work there by their own accord and will.

Lindy's comparison of the treatment of Hooters Girls (that's only a job title, not an indicator of their maturity) to slaves is completely out of the ballpark and has no validity. If she paid more attention in history class, she'd realize that the blacks in Africa were captured by the European colonists who then brought them to the colonies in North America to work for them under harsh, barbaric conditions. This practice continued even after the American Revolution, and would not end until after the Civil War. Now, the women who work at Hooters were not captured from their homes and brought there to work with no pay and under brutal conditions. They get paid well, earn reasonable tips, do not have to perform any acts that would degrade or debase them, and do not have to live with their managers. Those are the primary differences between Hooters Girls and slaves. The black slaves worked against their own will and were not even paid for their contributions. Slavery was a system into which they were born, until the great Abraham Lincoln finally emancipated them. The struggle for freedom didn't end there, but it was a major step. Hooters waitresses are not born into working there and are perfectly capable of making their own choices.

While some Hooters waitresses may have to seek second jobs, this is by no means applicable to all of them. The tips that many Hooters Girls earn in just one week are more than enough to pay for their groceries and bills. The ones who intend to pursue their careers after graduating college will no doubt move on to higher-paying jobs and positions. Of course, some Hooters Girls may not even choose to attend college so that they can continue their education, but that's their freedom of choice and no one can fault them for that.

Your implication that I attend college on a sports scholarship is way below the belt and worse than anything I have said to you. What the hell do you know about my life, except for what I've told you? My integrity and honesty are not to be questioned, regardless of whether you are a personal friend or a stranger. Jackasses like you will never understand this because you have the safety of your computers to make lies and accusations towards other people without being properly reprimanded.

You and Lindy may not believe in genocide or prison camps, but your narrow-minded beliefs on Hooters are quite indicative of how you feel about the individual's freedom of choice and opinion. You have no right to tell me or anyone else to stop patronizing Hooters. It is my inalienable human right to pursue whatever form of happiness I seek, as long as it doesn't hurt or kill anyone. Hooters has not committed any crimes towards the female gender, and there's no proof you have to refute that statement. You can't take away my rights to patronize Hooters, or anyone else's for that matter, because you're not in the position to do so (thank God). Your kind is dwindling because most people are logical enough to see through your bullshit. I have not met a single person in the real world who feels that Hooters encourages sexism or misogyny. The people who oppose Hooters (thankfully, they're a negligible minority) belong in the same camp as anti-marijuana nutcases, because neither group knows any facts to support their case. Oh sure, there might be a minor uproar from a few nutjobs if a Hooters opens in their community, but as soon as it opens and wins over the majority, those fascists crawl back under the rocks where they belong. In the words of the late, great Wally George, you're outta here! Now I just need some security guards to boot you out of here, much like Wally George's security did to his guests on his show.
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Posted by HootersFan on October 15, 2009 at 5:30 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 168
Holy Crap, HootersFan, I must say Wow! I had figured the thread good and deceased. I appreciate your articulate response. I also think you must really love Hooters to put this much work into defending it. But fear not, neither the words of Lindy nor I will cause the downfall of your beloved restaurant and put your dear friends out of work.

You appear to have taken significantly more offense to my query as to whether or not you were on a sports scholarship. In truth it was an expression of my own frustration that you do not know the degree of hyperbole that is comparing something to Nazism, or to Hitler (and by proxy, Nazis, Stalin, the Holocaust, eugenics, the bombing of Hiroshima and probably a dozen other WWII-era references I won't list at this time.) Even politicians are publicly called on this sort of exaggeration* e.g. when the tanagers started comparing Obama to Hitler and the healthcare reform to National Socialism. It astounded me that someone as immersed in academia as you would wittingly engage in such folly. I , hence, took a guess as to why, and asked. Note that I never claimed to know anything about you except what you've said on this thread. However, It speaks ill of your college and your education so far that you don't know and have continued to insist that my calling Hooters misogynistic is fascist or puritanical.

If you really want, I'll break down for you why I think with some certainty Hooters is misogynistic, but I shouldn't have to do so. (Hint: discrimination such as misogyny doesn't have to equate to the Holocaust. American society is significantly less discriminatory against blacks or women in the new millennium than was in, say, the 1960s or the 1920s or the 1870s. We've made progress, but African Americans are not yet normalized to Caucasians, even if technically equal by law, and women are not yet normalized to men, nor, yet, equal by law.) Hopefully, as one willing to expand your scholastic horizons, you can figure the rest out through the same research I've done, myself. I promise you, you'll be a better man (or at least better liked by women) for attempting to comprehend their plight. Otherwise, get back to me if you need me to elucidate further.

As for the plight of women compared to the plight of slaves in the US, I expressed my opinion here, in response to blank.

You might observe, I've never questioned your integrity or honesty. I think you believe what you do, and have expressed it in good faith. At one point I commented you don't seem very bright, but that's tame compared to the expressions of belligerence with which you've seasoned all your posts. In fact, I only suspect you of ignorance, too narrow a focus of the education you've had so far, and a lack of exposure to the world at large. This is nothing of which to be ashamed so long as you do everything you can to change this, to understand all sides of any situation before committing to an immutable opinion.

For now, let me advise you now and forever, never again invoke Nazism, fascism, Hitler, et. al. unless you really mean to make a genuine academic comparison, and by then you better have thoroughly studied the Third Reich and your subject enough to systematically back your claim. To do otherwise is to have (proverbially) drawn first in a gunfight or raised your voice in an argument. It informs all witnesses that you have run out of options other than to strike low.

Let me also add (as I mentioned above, same link) there's no shame in enjoying the various physical parts of women, or of even objectifying them. Feminism isn't about loving only their minds but enjoying all of them. The difference is that objectification should be consensual. If not, only then is it creepy, and in that case (as any famed artist or performer can tell you) it's creepy no matter which part of them you objectify, whether a body part, a mental aspect or a talent.

Regarding your last paragraph, look at any of my posts on this thread, and see if I've expressly said one should or shouldn't patronize Hooters. Then read what you wrote in closing. Doesn't it seem like you think I'm someone else? Maybe you should brush up your Sun Tzu and take a martial art; you'll feel better.

* assuming it's exaggeration; Godwin's law doesn't apply when you're actually talking about WWII and historical nuances thereof, or making a genuine effort to academically compare and contrast a personality to that of Adolph Hitler, or a form of government to National Socialism or whatever.
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Posted by Uriel-238 on October 16, 2009 at 2:06 AM · Report this
169
I strongly believe that places like "Hooters", strip clubs, porn, and most everything else that capitalizes on "look, dream but don't touch sex" is abusive to men and makes its money off of their widespread and tragic loneliness.
Posted by Al_Quida on October 16, 2009 at 1:07 PM · Report this
170
Great piece, Lindy.

Also: Uriel-238, thank you.

Posted by AnneMat on October 21, 2009 at 9:31 AM · Report this
171
Coming in way late on this, but great piece, Lindy. Hooters is horrible, and takes a terrible view of women.
Posted by mitten on October 23, 2009 at 4:05 PM · Report this
172
Dang. Why are you being so hard on places like this? I've been to Hooters. It caters to fugly guys who can't get laid. Just like strip clubs. Leave them alone.
Posted by biggy-dds on October 24, 2009 at 3:35 PM · Report this
173
Uriel, this reply may be late, but I refuse to allow you to have the last word in this debate. You see, I have a life beyond the Internet, as I'm sure you do as well. Besides attending college 5 days a week, I also volunteer at an animal shelter. That disproves the notion that biggy-dds and Al_Quida have about Hooters being an outlet for lonely, desperate men who wouldn't get attention from women any other way. I do have some female friends who also attend college and are open-minded enough to know that Hooters is perfectly safe and doesn't promote sexism. Hell, I just went to visit a 4-year university that I plan to transfer to and saw a women's volleyball game where the women were wearing shorts even shorter than the Hooters waitresses' shorts! Are you and your equally moronic cohort Lindy going to start crying about female volleyball players' uniforms being degrading and sexist?

OK, maybe I was hasty in equating you and Lindy with Communists and Nazis, but I stand by my belief that both of you are closet Puritans. Why are you offended by a restaurant that is far tamer than any strip club or prostitution house? You obviously didn't pay attention when I stated that Hooters waitresses aren't forced against their will to perform acts that would make them feel uncomfortable. There's a fine line between being a server and being a servant. Hooters waitresses are NOT servants in any shape, form, or manner. I'm not going to release the name of the Hooters waitress who I mentioned earlier, or the names of any of the other ladies who work at the location that I frequent. I will protect their identities and names, instead of releasing them to a backwards-thinking prude like you.

Lastly, I don't see what the problem is with thinking that Hooters Girls represent an ideal image of women. It's part of human nature to be attracted to those who are physically desirable. This is simple logic that you cannot refute. And it extends far beyond the human race as well. For example, would you rather have a beautiful garden of roses or a decaying bed of weeds? I rest my case.
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Posted by HootersFan on October 25, 2009 at 3:11 PM · Report this
174
Mitten, did they give an award to the most ignorant student where you attended high school? Have you ever actually gone inside a Hooters location and had a meal? And no, walking in for a quick minute to see the place doesn't qualify. I'm anxious to read your response, even though you probably won't have any facts to back up your misconception about Hooters.

As much fun as it is to read and rebut your ignorant remarks, it's scary that some people actually hold these beliefs. It reminds me of how the anti-drug warriors call marijuana a "deadly and life-threatening drug," despite the overwhelming evidence that shows that it clearly isn't. Thankfully, Hooters' opponents are a small minority and only seem to crop up when a new location opens. They sure seem to quiet down once the new location goes on to succeed and win over the majority. Your loss is the gain of millions of men AND women who patronize Hooters on a daily basis. Chew on that.
Posted by HootersFan on October 25, 2009 at 3:44 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 175
You do seem more in the way of a sophumer than a philosopher HootersFan @173, though I suspect that that might be a matter of age and experience. You already listed your credentials, and it seems my response was a bit too subtle, before, so let me spell this out for you: People are going to assume whatever they're going to assume about you, no matter what your routine looks like, and yanking out your own merits only suggests you're not otherwise confident in your arguments. Myself, I assume that folks have lives, since they generally do, so when you chose to express the terms of that lifestyle, my opinion doesn't change (though I did expect you to be more academically savvy than you are). Those that think you're a lifeless schlub in an SRO like doing so, and when you suggest you do volunteer work or are pulling a high GPA, they'll probably be convinced you're lying. In the meantime flopping your stuff out like an appendage is a lesser form of appeal to authority (which is simply another version of ad hominem. It alerts those of us logical types to trust your opinion only with caution.

Incidentally, a five day school week and volunteer work doesn't make you any less susceptible to loneliness or sexual desperation than otherwise. Agreed, you have more opportunities to meet people than staying at home (school being a primary place we find partners), but one can be just as easily too busy for relationships as not busy enough. I'm sure I wouldn't take my girlfriend out to hooters unless she was just as interested in ogling the servers as I, but then again, I think I'd have more fun going to the Delancey Street Restaurant and guessing at the pasts of the ex-cons.

The difference between the Puritan perspective [regarding sexual morality] and Lindy's and my own is that Puritan morality stems from revealed religion and they believe in traditional gender roles whereas ours stems from an awareness of oppression in history and a desire for gender equality and normalization in society. Puritans would condemn any business that celebrates female sex-appeal as a contrivance of the corruption of society for profit. We condemn Hooters not because it capitalizes on sexy young women, but does so while under-compensating them, and invoking cliché sexist stereotypes. And, for generally being tacky. While I can't speak for Lindy, myself, I suspect that most burlesque houses are more feministically correct than hooters is, as are a good number of the COYOTE endorsed brothels in this town.

Incidentally, the problem with idealizing Hooters girls (or Playboy bunnies or whatever glamor source you like) is not in noting that this particular build is what you want, it's a) narrowing your margin of acceptability to fiercely match that ideal, b) requiring your partner to perpetually maintain that ideal, despite age, lifestyle, childbirth, etc. or c) excluding parameters outside physical comparability (intellectual, emotional, spiritual, practical) when choosing a viable partner. As an individual doing these will lessen your happiness and that of those around you. The media industries are by far more responsible for perpetuating the myth that one can expect any girl next door to be model material (or any boy next door, a perfect provider) than individuals, and Hollywood and the beauty industries have done, by far, more damage in this regard than men's magazines, strip clubs or Hooters.

Oh, and @174, you might want to cut the shit-talking folks if you plan on convincing anyone that your thoughts might be relevant. If the first thing that others see come out of your skull is did they give an award to the most ignorant student where you attended high school? you can't fault them for presuming you a belligerent douchebag.
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Posted by Uriel-238 on October 26, 2009 at 5:59 PM · Report this
176
Uriel, I'm not posting my academic credentials because I suffer from a lack of self-confidence or because I have an inferiority complex. I do it to prove that I am a smart, intelligent person who does not fit the stereotype that men who go to Hooters are lonely and desperate. You can't prove that I'm lying about my life because you don't know me at all. You are not an omniscient being who can ASSume what he wants to about other people. The Internet is a perfect outlet for cowards like you to spread your ASSumptions about strangers without being properly reprimanded. Trust me, if you tried saying any of your pseudo-intellectual nonsense to me in person, I wouldn't let you get away with it.

I already know what puritanism, Nazism, Communism, and feminism are. You don't need to lecture me about those topics because I am very familiar with them and have studied them extensively. BTW, why do you link Wikipedia? Don't you know that it's a site that anyone can edit, regardless of whether the information is correct or not? Try linking other sites for a change instead of Wackypedia.

You said that Hooters undercompensates their waitresses and invokes sexist stereotypes. You're wrong because many of the waitresses who work there make enough money from tips alone to live on their own without living under their parents' roofs. The women who work at Hooters are already beautiful to begin with, so it's not like as if they were homely before applying there. They are mature, intelligent women who don't need condescending, elitist morons like you to tell them what to do or that they reinforce negative stereotypes. And what's wrong with Hooters being "delightfully tacky yet unrefined?" It's a fun place that doesn't try to be anything that it isn't and appeals to people of all backgrounds. If you weren't such a pompous, elitist know-it-all, you'd realize this simple fact.

Although I love Hooters waitresses, I don't exclusively prefer them to other women. Every day I go to college, I see many female students who are just as gorgeous and don't even work at Hooters. I not only interact with some of these female students, I'm also friends with a few as well. I don't use beauty as the only criterion for judging women. Factors like maturity and intelligence also play huge roles as well. Since I don't believe in marriage, I don't see myself having only one romantic relationship with one woman for the rest of my life. I also have a cut-off age for dating women, which is 50, because I feel that once they reach that dreaded age, they lose all their finer qualities (e.g, beauty, intelligence). You can call me shallow for having this view all you want, but it's my personal choice and it's not your business to interfere with it.

My rebuttal to Mitten's comment was an attack against his/her ignorance about Hooters. I plead guilty to insulting that user, but I did so with wit. That person has no valid argument for his/her statement that "Hooters is horrible, and takes a terrible view of women." He/she is making a blanket statement that has no basis in the truth. Your criticisms against Hooters have no basis in the truth either because you rely on assumptions and false statements. You may not realize this, but Hooters is a very charitable business that has donated time and money to many worthy causes, such as the Muscular Dystrophy Association, the Special Olympics, the Make-A-Wish Foundation, and the Juvenile Diabetes Association. Here are links to selected stories about Hooters' community contributions.

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=331…
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRele…
http://www.gastongazette.com/news/pet-38…
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/…
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRele…
http://www.disabled-world.com/sports/spe…
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Posted by HootersFan on October 27, 2009 at 12:42 PM · Report this
Lindy West 177
This is the best debate ever. Please never stop.
Posted by Lindy West on October 27, 2009 at 4:20 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 178
HootersFan @176 Regarding posting your academic credentials: Firstly (and secondly), Listing your merits doesn't make them true. There's a reason why one of the mottos of the net is Pics or it didn't happen. This is the internet, and your generation should already know at your age, here folks are judged solely, as MLK put it, by the content of their character. There's a reason netiquette emphasizes proper spelling and grammar, and moderation in use of capital letters. Our words are our face here, and saying I have a degree means no more than saying I have a badge or I have a 365 Daytona, or I have a huge penis. I mean, I could similarly say I work for the DHS in conjunction with Langley to spy on China, and that I've dined with a number of published feminists on the west coast, when they've lived in or passed through my city. That doesn't necessarily make any of it true, or relevant.

Thirdly, you flashed your bits with the intent to prove your intelligence, but what you've actually done is proven you feel the need to prove your intelligence. Do you see the difference? That shows (to me) a lack of confidence, as above, that the content of your text will do you justice. Whether that equates to a full Monty inferiority complex is beyond the scope of my concern. You may be a brilliant chemist or an awesome power forward, and just diffident of your online debate skills.

Fourthly, you are listing merits to reach a false conclusion. In this case I'm bright and therefore not lonely or desperate. Having grown up around Cal-Tech and JPL myself, I've known dozens of world-conquering-smart yet lonely and desperate folks. In fact, when intelligence starts climbing into the mad scientist ranges, the ability to interact with ordinary humans drops steeply. Not that I suspect you're Cal-Tech material (nor am I, for what it's worth), but I would suspect a solid percentage of fraternal brothers with high GPAs who do volunteer work are also single, lonely and desperate. Being of one set in no way precludes the other.

Note also, HootersFan, that I not only abstained from proceeding on any false assumptions about you, I never cared. As one who is quite fond of logic, It doesn't matter to me if you're really some pathetic goon in the underground slums of Liechtenstein surfing on pirated WiFi, or Richard Dawkins trolling incognito on his Greatest Show On Earth tour. I've asked about the specifics of your nature. I harbor suspicions. I've made assumptions in the absence of evidence to the contrary, but this, what I suspect of you, is different from what I expect of you. For example, this isn't the first time I've pointed out this difficulty of yours to understand these nuances, but I hope you get better.

Regarding Nazism, Puritanism, etc. you obviously didn't know what they were, except in the broadest sense (Nazis = bad Germans, Puritans = Sexually repressed primitive colonists) otherwise you'd have seen early on how poorly Lindy and I compare to them. I'd like to imagine that's changed between posts, and you've gone ahead and brushed up on governments and liberation and equality activism, either the Wiki articles to which I pointed, or a scholastic source you prefer. I only lectured you by pointing out the contrast that was obviously, to you, unapparent. Though, I suppose, if you feel I was lecturing you, you didn't read it, or you read it and didn't care.

I use Wikipedia, by the way, because it's common, available and about as complete and accurate as any other encyclopedia (including the big ones like Britannica and World Book). Yes, anyone can edit Wikipedia, but the editing watchdogs are quite diligent (sometimes overly so) in correcting errors and fixing vandalism (to the point they sometimes revert accurate updates if they seem too liberal a change). The gaps in articles, including fact-checks, are glaringly flagged, so an article of questionable reliability is easy to spot. Five years ago, you might have been right to suggest Wikipedia is a dubious or apocryphal source. Nowadays, it's among the best. Better than most academic textbooks, to be sure. If you don't like it, feel free to use its footnotes to find sources you like.

Gratuities are not the same as compensation, despite what the IRS says, and the fact that many regard it as such is yet another indicator of our decaying economic system. The fact that gratuity cups have come out at cafeteria style places, such as coffee houses and delicatessens harbingers the despair of our contingent workforce. Gratuities were originally intended to be a bonus for a job well done. Only then did the standard tip appear, first of 5% then 10%, then 15%. As business lower their paychecks in response, customers are now expected to pay servers, and our contingent service-oriented workforce (not just Hooters girls) have been transformed effectively to panhandlers while they work. I have no doubt Hooters girls get paid larger tips, but it is without question for the additional fanservice they provide. As I mentioned above, the extra tips are because they allow themselves to be exploited, as is made clear in their contract.

Incidentally, all businesses, when they reach a certain financial stature, become charitable. It's a mirror of the American upper class in the tradition of gratuitous expenditure and of guilty old industry magnates like Carnegie, Rockefeller or Morgan trying to get into Heaven after committing the evils necessary to become tycoons. Hooters doesn't do it because its shareholders are inherently altruistic, but because charity work is the social currency of corporate empires.

I've already covered the economics of Hooters above, and since I've not earned enough respect from you to stop calling me a moron (elitist moron, and then pompous, elitist know-it-all) specifically when I've far and beyond demonstrated otherwise, the futility of discussing much with you is growing on me. Indeed, I've lost the impetus to continue to provide you the same material in a way you can comprehend. You can search for yourself and see what I said, or as the case likely is, not.

I suspect you're simply in denial of any indication that your precious, precious restaurant might have a dark underbelly, or has risen to prestige by questionable device. Since, in your eyes, Hooters cannot do wrong, I will cease to try to point out otherwise. With such determination to believe in absurdity and to turn a blind eye to reality, I am convinced despite your occasional liberal leaning you'll ultimately become the good, tradition-entrenched fundamental-guided (xenophobic) Republican your parents always wanted you to be. Heck, perhaps you'll take up a hobby pugilizing those who disagree with you. I do hope I'm wrong.
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Posted by Uriel-238 on October 27, 2009 at 9:03 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 179
Lindy, while I completely don't know how to take that (sincere sarcasm?), thank you. And I appreciate that you've read this far.

Sadly, I'll be vanishing come November only to return in December, so a preset end is immanent.

I think this debate has illustrated your / my case by example.
Posted by Uriel-238 on October 27, 2009 at 9:04 PM · Report this
Lindy West 180
@179: Oh! It's entirely sincere. Your patience is astounding.
Posted by Lindy West on October 27, 2009 at 10:40 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 181
Lindy @180, Thank you! That made my day.
Posted by Uriel-238 on October 28, 2009 at 3:26 PM · Report this
182
I reiterate: You can't prove I'm lying about what I post here because you've never met me in the real world and have no knowledge of my life beyond what I've told you. I don't need to answer to a pompous windbag like you who is too elitist and self-righteous to enjoy a meal at a place that is far tamer than any strip club or house of prostitution. You aren't some omniscient being who can peek into the lives of anonymous people with whom you converse online.

Wikipedia isn't the end-all, be-all of information. It's only useful for practical information like any regular encyclopedia. For concrete information, you're better off acquiring a specific book or an article on the topic you're researching. Not to mention that citing a Wikipedia entry for a term paper (something I'd never do, BTW) is about as valid as citing a Google search.

The articles I cited are 100% legit. I can always link more stories just to shut your trap up even more. You can't refute the fact that Hooters is a charitable, caring business that has donated plenty of money and time to many worthy causes. There isn't a single blot on Hooters' record. And the women who work there aren't being exploited because they voluntarily choose to seek employment at Hooters. Exploitation is committed against one's individual will. Do you honestly think that the Africans in the 1800s and 1700s asked the European colonists to capture them and put them into slavery? Of course not, you uninformed dumbass. All of the Hooters waitresses I know personally chose to work at Hooters by their own accord, not against their will. Therefore, your argument that Hooters exploits women is invalid. Go the back of the class and bang your head against the wall for having such an absurd argument without any valid points or facts.

I see that your equally pathetic cohort Lindy has chosen to post her comments. If you're reading this Lindy, I want you to know that I despise you for your asinine article that has made all kinds of untrue and presumptuous arguments against Hooters. You and Uriel deserve each other for your backwards-thinking. Notice how I never stated that I was against feminism or women's rights. In fact, I would love nothing more than to see a female president elected in the United States, but that's a story for another day. The only feminists whom I despise are the ones like you who want to ban places like Hooters and violate the individual's freedom of choice. A proper feminist would applaud a fellow woman for choosing the job/career of her choice, so long as no one is killed. No one is being physically or mentally harmed at Hooters, so there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Your kind is dying out because the vast majority of the American people support Hooters and know that it doesn't commit any crimes. Crawl back under the rock where you belong, instead of posting your ignorant drivel where smarter people like myself can pick it apart.

In closing, I would like defend myself against Uriel's accusation that I will "ultimately become the good, tradition-entrenched fundamental-guided (xenophobic) Republican your parents always wanted you to be." Au contraire, you spineless wimp. I am a proud independent who has strong convictions and subscribes to neither major American political party.
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Posted by HootersFan on October 28, 2009 at 6:58 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 183
HootersFan 182 I can only assume by your last response that you're replying to me while inebriated, since the possible alternatives are that you're either semi-literate, or that you're suffering from a traumatic brain injury, since every point in your last reply -- every last one -- was a reactive response to things I didn't say. In retrospect, I'm wondering if this has been a habit of yours, to post to SLOG while drunk, in which case I've been overestimating you for quite some time.

~ I not only didn't claim to know anything about you, I noted that I don't care, since it's irrelevant.

~ I didn't say Wikipedia was the epitomical information source. What did I say, can you read?

~ I didn't say Hooters wasn't charitable. I said they have ulterior motives to be so. See the difference?

~ I never said you were against feminism or that you were mysogynistic. But then again most mysogynists would never admit it, and often make flimsy defenses like I would love nothing more than to see a female president elected in the United States.

~ I never said I wanted to ban hooters. What did I say?

~ I didn't say you are the good, tradition-entrenched fundamental-guided (xenophobic) Republican your parents always wanted you to be. I said you'll become the good, tradition-entrenched fundamental-guided (xenophobic) Republican your parents always wanted you to be. I made this prediction based on your capacity for denial and refusal to engage in critical thought. (I'm slightly surprised you didn't advise me that your parents aren't Republicans and wouldn't want you to become one. Maybe I guessed correctly.)

I don't expect you to read this, nor do I expect you to retain it if you do, but people don't choose to become mysogynist or homophobic or otherwise bigoted. They justify their actions by comparing them (favorably) to worse attrocities, or by affirming them with scripture, or by putting qualifications on bigotry (Exploitation is committed against one's individual will.)

As I said, I hope I am wrong, though that hope wanes with your continued belligerence and incapacity to comprehend what you read. Maybe you'll read this, and re-read my previous posts when you are sober, and then continue this dialog in earnest. I doubt it, now, but please, surprise me.
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Posted by Uriel-238 on October 29, 2009 at 12:07 AM · Report this
184
Uriel, I wasn't under the influence of alcohol when I made my last post. My medical condition prevents me from consuming alcoholic beverages, and even if I could drink, I still wouldn't. I've never had a single beer in my life and never will. Drinking is overrated and nothing positive comes out of it anyway.

If you go back and read my previous comment, you'll see that I directed some of my ire toward your brain-dead buddy Lindy. And for someone who claims to not care about my life, you sure spend a lot of time making unsubstantiated assumptions about me (i.e. I'm a drunk, I attend college on a sports scholarship, I'm a Republican, etc.). None of the allegations you've made against me are true. In fact, they're all 100% wrong, and if you said any of this shit to my face, I'd haul your sorry ass to court.

My statement that I would be in favor of a female President is not a flimsy defense, it's a statement of pride. In fact, one of the candidates for mayor where I live happens to be a woman, and I'm voting for her. Not to mention that I've also donated money to breast cancer and anti-domestic violence funds. I strongly oppose domestic violence and feel that any man who rapes or murders a woman should be executed pronto. So no, I'm not a closet misogynist, which you indirectly accused me of being when you said "But then again most mysogynists would never admit it, and often make flimsy defenses like 'I would love nothing more than to see a female president elected in the United States'."

Neither one of my parents is a registered Republican. Both my mom and dad are registered independents, although I would say that my father has some conservative leanings. I do too, but I also have some liberal and libertarian views. My parents don't expect me to grow up to be a Republican because they respect the fact that I'm my own person and don't need others to think for me. Once again I've shown you to be the presumptuous dick that you really are.

Hooters' charitable contributions aren't a result of ulterior motives, as you claim, it's because they genuinely care about getting involved with communities. I already linked 6 articles about some of their more notable efforts, but since you're blind to facts and the truth, I might as well post some more:

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRele…
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRele…
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRele…
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRele…

Here are some interesting facts I discovered on Hooters' official site:

"The Hooters Community Endowment Fund (HOO.C.E.F) is the 9th largest corporate endowment fund in Georgia and has contributed over $8 million to local and national charities since its inception in 1992."

"Of Hooters 1,500 exempt employees (management from the restaurants and corporate office), 30%, or 450, are female."

"Of Hooters 1,500 exempt employees (management from the restaurants and corporate office), 30%, or 450, are female."

"Hooters was recently ranked 45th in Restaurants and Institutions magazine’s top 400 restaurant chain concepts in America based on 2008 sales."

And here's a statement regarding the debate over Hooters being a misogynistic restaurant, right from the official Hooters site:

"Claims that Hooters exploits attractive women are as ridiculous as saying the NFL exploits men who are big and fast. Hooters Girls have the same right to use their natural female sex appeal to earn a living as do super models Cindy Crawford and Naomi Campbell. To Hooters, the women’s rights movement is important because it guarantees women have the right to choose their own careers, be it a Supreme Court Justice or Hooters Girl.

Women occupy management positions all the way from Assistant Manager to Vice President of Training and Development, such as Kat Cole, who started her career at Hooters as a Hooters Girl.

The chain acknowledges that many consider "Hooters" a slang term for a portion of the female anatomy. Hooters does have an owl inside its logo and uses an owl theme sufficiently to allow debate to occur over the meaning's intent. The chain enjoys and benefits from this debate. In the end, we hope Hooters means a great place to eat.

Hooters characterizes itself as a neighborhood place, not a typical family restaurant. Sixty-eight percent of customers are male, most between the ages of 25-54. Hooters does not market itself to families, but they do patronize the restaurants. Ten percent of the parties we serve have children in them. Hooters is in the hospitality business and provides the best possible service to anyone coming through the door. For this reason, the chain offers a children's menu.

According to ever-increasing sales figures, the Hooters concept must be acceptable to a large majority of American consumers. Hooters believes critics of the concept are a vocal minority of politically correct minded individuals. This group sometimes states the concept "constitutes a hostile work environment," but just the opposite is true."

You may have the upper hand on critical thinking, but when it comes to cold, hard facts, I crush you just like good 'ol Ronald Reagan crushed Jimmy "Mr. Planters Peanut Man" Carter and Walter "Who?" Mondale. You wouldn't know a fact even if it were stamped on your forehead.

Unless someone is raised by prejudiced parents and forced to accept their ideology, people can choose to become bigots. I myself am not a bigot in any shape, form, or manner. Since your feeble mind is incapable of understanding the difference between being forced against your will to do something and choosing to do something by your own decision, I'll reiterate myself: Raping a woman is exploitation because it's a degrading violation of her body and will. No woman ever asks a man to rape or abuse her, even if she is dressed scantily-clad. However, women who choose to work at Hooters are NOT (capitalized for emphasis) being exploited because they are mature enough to understand the concept and realize that it won't lead to any psychological or physical damage. If a woman decides that Hooters isn't the job for her and wants to quit, she's not going to be held at gunpoint to keep working at Hooters against her will. Now do you understand? If you can't, then you're a lost cause whom I shouldn't bother with any longer. It's wimpy crybabies like you and Lindy that make me wish that the Internet was never allowed to be used by the public.
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Posted by HootersFan on October 29, 2009 at 6:07 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 185
That is frightening to me, HootersFan @184, that you misread everything I said while straight-edge. Do you have a literacy problem? It might explain why you're so hostile and why you think I said you're Republican, when I didn't.

I think the court case with which you threatened me (on contingency) would be quite amusing. The judge would see what I said for what it was. But also, there's no slander in suggesting you're Republican, on a sports scholarship or that you drink. (Though you've implied yourself partaking of pot; I wonder what the courts would think of that?) Thirdly, even if there was, you've suffered no material or public damage from it. Notably, with the same level of conviction, I suggested you might be a brilliant chemist or an awesome power forward. No complaints there. What is your major, anyway? English Literature? Political Science? Women's Studies? Law?

Perhaps you should run this dialog by your peers, and see if they think you have a good case. To be sure, I've never called you a presumptuous dick or an elitist moron or anything comparable. As I said before, in this venue, our words are our faces, and its by the content of what we say by which the witnessing community judges us.

It's interesting: I'm a fierce advocate of social degenderization, yet I oppose capital punishment, think rapists can often be rehabilitated and am aware that men are as often victims (and women, offenders) of domestic violence (in statistical fact, by far, most incidents of domestic violence are mutual). So your examples don't really lend weight to your declaration. My point was not to say that you are misogynist, but that most misogynists don't believe they are. Most bigots in general don't believe they are, be they sexists, racists, religious supremacists or homophobes. As I said before, what concerns me is the need you appear to feel to have to demonstrate your virtue, which means you are not even open to the possibility, so you won't see when you are. A contrasting example: Is it misogynistic of me to feel Fat Princess is good enough a game to condone its sexist, weightist messages? Debatably. But I'm comfortable enough with myself to so indulge my feelings, even if that's the case.

Here's hoping you can get there too...before you do become a Reagan-worshiping, Carter-diabolizing Republican.

Incidentally, standard wage for servers at restaurants like Hooters and its competitors is $2 an hour plus tips (though some regions like San Francisco enforce minimum wage for servers before tips). Tips, themselves are typically around 15% of sales but is, highly contingent on table rotation. Hooters girls can count on about 30% to 100% sales in tips for their additional fanservice (Including stagecraft, e.g. hula-hoops and hopscotch). Dress and behavior codes, as outlined in the server's manual are exceedingly strict, and turnover is significantly higher than in other restaurants specifically because of violations and enforcement. Hooters only hires women who fit their strict parameters, though; whether that's discriminatory I'll let you decide. And each hire must sign a waver that they, personally, do not believe they are being exploited, an element unique to the Hooters hire process. It remains contingent work which pays better but is less secure than comparable jobs.

In the meantime, amongst all your facts, perhaps you can provide some that proves (i.e. provides clear and convincing evidence) that Hooters charity efforts are purely altruistic. I'm, frankly, not feeling adequately crushed. Please, sir, may I have another?
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Posted by Uriel-238 on October 30, 2009 at 6:09 PM · Report this
186
almost all the comments i read were retarded, 23, yes they are, so are women, i think her comment was completely fair.
most of them probably have to work there to live.
hooter teaches men and women from when they are little to as a girl=be slutty have HUGE boobs[implants are disgusting and completely ruin the natural boob, from my prospective. although it is there choice and not my place to tell them not to implant them selves and ass. men=be selfish and exploit women. just like Niggers would tell African-American they are slaves and do what ever the white man says and would tell Caucasian they are Superior and can do what they wish with African-Americans.
people who say i want a place to see boobies, how bout a strip club?

KJ W 13yrs old
Posted by Kjosh Waddell on October 31, 2009 at 7:10 PM · Report this
187
Alright douchebag, this is the last time I'm replying to any of your garbage. Your response will not be read or replied to because I'm sick of arguing with someone who is blind to facts. BTW, I find it interesting that you couldn't even respond to the facts I cited earlier. You may have the upper hand in critical thinking, but I completely dominate you when it comes to facts.

Ronald Reagan is the only, I repeat, THE ONLY (capitalized for emphasis) Republican president who I even like. I am a registered independent, in case your feeble mind didn't catch that the first time I posted it. It's pretty fucked up that you seriously believe that rapists can be rehabilitated into becoming normal members of society. You see, there are different types of crimes, and rape is what I call an "unforgivable crime." You cannot rationally expect a woman to forgive a rapist, even if the culprit has received loads of medication, therapy, and rehabilitation. What about the psychological and physical scars left upon a woman after she's been raped? Don't you care about the victims' rights, or are you one of those bleeding-heart liberals who cares more about the criminals than their victims?

I noticed you made a crack about my comparison of Hooters' critics to anti-marijuana nutcases. Where do you get off saying that I've implied the usage of pot? I've never smoked one joint in my life, but that doesn't mean that I can't advocate marijuana legalization. You see, I'm intelligent enough to realize that it has never killed a single person, that it's not addictive, and that there almost no risks with taking marijuana. Compare this to the laundry list of risks associated with smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol. I'm also smart enough to see through all the BS that the anti-drug warriors spout.

As I said earlier, I fall into the independent category when it comes to political views. On the one hand, I support the death penalty, but ONLY for those who commit the most heinous crimes (e.g., murder, rape, child molestation). On the opposite end of the political spectrum, I support a woman's choice to have an abortion, especially if she suffers from a medical condition (e.g., AIDS, cancer), is too poor to support the child, or already has enough kids. You have no right to predict that I'll grow up to be a Republican. I despise the CON-servatives as much as the LIE-brals.

BTW, I go to a community college right now, but not because of my financial condition. I'm attending a community college because I'd rather take my required courses there first, rather than go straight to a four-year university and take them there. This is my last year at community college, and once I transfer, I'm going to major in Communications. I have the support of my entire family, not to mention my disability service counselors (I have Asperger's Syndrome, BTW), my friends, extended family relatives, doctors, and last, but definitely not least, the waitresses who work at the local Hooters.

Although it may be hard for your peanut-sized brain to comprehend this, there are Hooters Girls who have gone on to more successful careers. In fact, the Vice President of Training and Development at Hooters, Kat Cole, started as a waitress there, which pretty much demolishes the myth that Hooters' corporate offices are 100% male. Another example that immediately comes to mind is actress Amy Adams, who worked there when she was just 18. I'm sure there are many other examples of Hooters Girls who have moved on to the proverbial bigger and better things in life.

Since you challenged me to prove that Hooters' corporate suits have altruistic motives, I found this quote from an interview with one of the six co-founders, Ed Droste:

"I like to be creative, fair. The thing that I get the greatest personal thrill out of is all the community and charitable good that we’re able to do. Through the Hooters concept, it allows us to do a lot more good for folks then I could ever do individually. I would like to say that I’m a fair businessperson, but also one that gets a big thrill out of having an impact on the community."

The site where I found this quote is right here:

http://mcclain.johnson.googlepages.com/e…

As we can see here, I've shut down two of your inane assumptions: that Hooters waitresses are only friendly for larger tips, and that the people in charge may not have sincere motives for supporting worthy causes. At least I can back up my statements with facts and sources. You have yet to post a single fact to support any of your statements, and at this rate, you probably won't. Even if you can, I won't able to read it because I hereby bow out of this debate. I'm going to finish my college education, pursue a career in journalism, find love, and of course, continue to support Hooters in every and any way possible. BTW, I just wrote an article for my college's newspaper about the misguided assumptions that some people have about Hooters (i.e., you and Lindy, etc.). Thankfully, the anti-Hooters crowd is a very small minority, seeing as how the restaurant has expanded not just all across the United States, but in numerous international countries like China, Mexico, Germany, Canada, and South Africa, to name but a few. Your kind is dwindling day by day, and eventually there'll be virtually no opposition to Hooters. It's such a shame that you're too uptight to go to Hooters and see for yourself that isn't the sexist monstrosity that you and Lindy make it out to be. Then again, I'd really hate to be a backwards-thinking, uptight, politically correct, bleeding-heart wimp like you. Fuck you and the horse that you rode on, too.
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Posted by HootersFan on October 31, 2009 at 8:39 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 188
Your Honor, this defense rests.
Posted by Uriel-238 on November 1, 2009 at 5:09 AM · Report this
189
god that was fucking retarded. both of you should go back to hooters and make out.
Posted by I like where this is going on November 4, 2009 at 11:24 AM · Report this
190
@5
The restaurant isn't called "great personality and engaging conversation".
Why do you want to waste someone's time with that kind of crap? She's there to work and get paid for it. No one would ever work food service unless there was money involved. It's a crappy job no matter what you wear or look like.

Hooter is a theme restaurant much like any other. I guess it's OK for women to make choices as long as they're acceptable to you? Or is there some sort of Hooters slave trade I'm not aware of?

G
Posted by GabrielDiesel on November 8, 2009 at 12:27 PM · Report this
191
Did not appreciate the racist n!gger rant at the end. Nor do I understand why the author was so worked up over Hooters restaurant. This article was WIERD.
Posted by Mikex11 on November 10, 2009 at 5:05 PM · Report this
192
@39: that's called a minstrel show. watch "bamboozled." and shut the FUCK up. that last part goes for the rest of you white male commenters completely ignorant of your own privilege. i'm seriously grossed out.
Posted by none of the above on November 12, 2009 at 7:27 PM · Report this
193
@39: that's called a minstrel show. watch "bamboozled." and shut the FUCK up. that last part goes for the rest of you white male commenters completely ignorant of your own privilege. i'm seriously grossed out.
Posted by shut.up. on November 12, 2009 at 7:28 PM · Report this
194
From the looks of things, Lindy, you have every right to be envious of women who can make a living from being attractive.
Posted by U.R. Fugly on November 13, 2009 at 8:02 PM · Report this
195
Just thought I'd pop in to see if any other pablum pukers have tried to debate me after I thrashed Uriel. Looks like no one else has the guts or the courage to argue with me. I hereby declare myself the winner of this one-sided argument.

Mikex11, the reason Lindy is so uptight about Hooters is because she's a politically correct hag who doesn't want logical, intelligent people like me to have a good meal and beautiful women in our company. She has no valid arguments against Hooters and thinks that Hooters Girls can't make their own independent decisions. Did it ever occur to that feminazi that Hooters waitresses voluntarily choose to work there? Most Hooters Girls I know are bright young ladies who have already finished college or are attending college classes right now. They're not brainless bimbos who will do anything to please men. You can't get a lap dance or a strip tease at Hooters, and if you ask for one, your ass will get hauled out the doors.

There is not a single recorded story or fact to support the ASSumption that Hooters promotes exploitation. If Lindy has paid more attention in school, she'd know that exploitation is committed against the individual's will. No one volunantarily asks to be exploited. The Africans didn't ask the European colonists to capture them and put them into slavery. Nor did the Native American tribes ask the Europeans to steal their lands and give them their diseases. I posted a boatload of facts about how Hooters is a genuinely charitable business that gives back to the communities, so I won't repeat myself. Scroll up and read some of my earlier posts for the cold, hard facts.
Posted by HootersFan on November 24, 2009 at 2:38 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 196
I like where this is going, take a look at the index number of your post. Then tell me why the heck you are still here if you truly thought the dialog was fucking retarded. Evidently you found it entertaining enough to see if there was an encore.

GabrielDiesel I'm assuming you arrived late in the conversation and didn't read the early history of the thread. The slave-like nature of the worker pool from whence Hooters Girls are hired was previously discussed. At length.

HootersFan, you really have no idea how it appears for you to return to the proverbial field once the game was done, do you? You just couldn't help but return to declare yourself victor in the announced absence of adversaries, could you? At this point, I would guess you must have stock options in Hooters of America, Inc. You must get blow-jobs from Mr. Brooks, personally. Every glorious day. The only other possibilities can only be idiocy, or delusion. So kudos on your grand arrangement, dude. You da man!
Posted by Uriel-238 on December 8, 2009 at 7:41 PM · Report this
197
Uriel, I only came back just to check on the discussion and see if any other wimps had tried to provoke me into an argument. Since no one else has the courage or the guts to debate me, it's plain to see that I'm the winner of this argument. I already crushed you with a plethora of facts and links to prove that Hooters is a charitable business and that there's no misogyny or sexism being perpetrated. All you can do is throw out fancy-schmancy Latin phrases and links to Wikipedia entries.

For the record, I don't own any Hooters stock, nor am I related to the founders. I just happen to be a very passionate and dedicated fan of the chain and will defend it when narrow-minded prudes like you attack it. Since you can't dig up any facts or sources to support your arguments, you have to resort to assumptions and lies that border on slander/libel. Now do you understand why I've beaten you and your butt-buddy Lindy? Go back to IHOP where you and all your sissy pals belong. Hooters will still be here and thriving long after you and your kind have expired.
Posted by HootersFan on December 13, 2009 at 12:08 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 198
You sure did beat us, Hootersfan. Keep telling yourself that.

You might want to look libel up before you go throwing words like that around.
Posted by Uriel-238 on December 13, 2009 at 10:41 PM · Report this
199
I already know what libel means. It's a form of slander that appears in print, photographs, writing, or signs. Unlike you, I didn't need to resort to Wackypedia for that definition. Your charges against Hooters that it exploits its waitresses and that it is sexist are totally unfounded and have no basis in the truth. Your accusations fall under the very definition of libel because they are nothing more than malicious, untrue assumptions intended to damage a company's reputation.

I've poked so many holes in your "Hooters perpetuates exploitation of women" argument that it looks like a block of Swiss cheese. I really don't want to repeat myself, even though you are extremely dense and can't understand logic or facts. Just re-read my earlier rebuttals in case you didn't get me clear the first time.

I wrote an article defending Hooters for my college's newspaper and have received nothing but praise for it. Not just from the managers and waitresses at my local Hooters, mind you, but also my family, friends, and other associates. People like you and Lindy are in the vast minority and are really nothing more than fringe types. Thank God that you don't occupy a position of authority, because the United States would be in far worse shape than it is now. BTW, I bet Lindy's comparison of Hooters to slavery would go over real well with blacks. I'd love to see that bitch go to Compton or Watts and try to spew her garbage to the blacks there. There's no way she'd come out in one piece.

In closing, chinga usted, Uriel. If you don't know what that means, then I suggest you brush up on your Spanish.
Posted by HootersFan on December 14, 2009 at 11:06 AM · Report this
Uriel-238 200
Yep. You sure did. You beat the pants off of me, Hootersfan our pathetic vegan liberal notions were no match for your articulate elocutions and indesputable links to unbiased facts.

You are so, so made of win, Hootersfan. I'm not worthy to scrape my trodden remains off the soles of your shoes. I'd send you a big victory bunny if I knew your whereabouts.
Posted by Uriel-238 on December 15, 2009 at 4:33 PM · Report this
201
Am I the only one who took twisted enjoyment out of the fact that this particular Hooters was opening in a town named "South Park"?

(For the record, I'm vegetarian, and even if I weren't I don't have a death wish, so Hooter's wings are the last thing I'd ever eat. And if I did eat them, I suspect they WOULD, in fact, be the last thing I'd ever eat.)
Posted by AlaskanbutnotSeanParnell on December 16, 2009 at 2:32 AM · Report this
202
Uriel, the fact that you are a liberal is of no importance to me. I despise the LIE-brals as much as the CON-servatives and feel that the United States could use a change in government, but that's a story for another day.

Your attempt at sarcasm didn't deceive me. I have a finely tuned BS detector that can trace even the slightest amount of sarcasm in another person's statement. Nice try, but you can't pull a fast one on me.
Posted by HootersFan on December 16, 2009 at 2:35 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 203
It wasn't? I can't?

Wow, HootersFan, you are sharp like obsidian. Maybe if I start going to Hooters, myself, I can become sharp too, just like you.
Posted by Uriel-238 on December 17, 2009 at 1:11 AM · Report this
204
Uriel, you are pretty retarded. You are getting trolled SO hard. Unless you both just trolled me into posting............
Posted by Bryan on December 21, 2009 at 3:14 PM · Report this
205
I think any mother or father who brings their kids to Hooters should have their reproductive organs removed, be beaten with a cane, and carefully watched by Child Protective Services to make sure they don't do anything else like that.
Posted by dwight moody on December 21, 2009 at 3:35 PM · Report this
206
Uriel, I can guarantee you that if you start going to Hooters, you'll acquire a better taste in women. That is, if you actually like females. Judging by the tone of your posts, it seems to me like you are afraid of attractive ladies. If you're a homosexual, then I can perfectly understand why you wouldn't be sexually aroused by the opposite sex. But if you're a heterosexual man and don't like the Hooters waitresses or good-looking women period, then I fear for your sanity and conscience, or lack thereof.

Dwight, your comment is a prime example of why idiots should not be allowed access to the Internet, or any other avenue where your wrong-minded views can be exposed to others. If parents want to bring their children to Hooters for an afternoon outing, that's their right and you have absolutely no right to interfere with it. There's nothing at Hooters that will corrupt the mind of an impressionable child. If you tune in to those ridiculous dating shows on VH1, you'll see women who wear even less than Hooters waitresses. Not that I'm protesting, mind you, it's just that you need to be enlightened. What are you anyway, some kind of bible-waving nutcase? This is 2009, not 1609, you pablum puker. You should seriously consider having the word "dumbass" printed on your forehead and go walk into an incoming train for your asinine remark.
Posted by HootersFan on December 21, 2009 at 3:59 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 207
Check it out, dwight moody. See how smart HootersFan is? Isn't he amazingly smart? I bet he could beat all of us in Trivial Pursuit, he's so mind-bogglingly smart.

Really, HootersFan? You really think I'd get better taste in women by becoming a Hooters regular? Guarantee, even? What's that special thing Hooters Girls™ have that women outside Hooters lack to which I haven't been exposed? Please, enlighten me.

Seriously, HootersFan, the brilliance you show in your debating skills here is awestriking. You should copy this whole dialogue and show it to your English instructor. You'll get an A for sure.
Posted by Uriel-238 on December 22, 2009 at 4:22 AM · Report this
208
Uriel, your attempts at flattery and sarcasm are so blatantly obvious, even the densest child could see through them. Who are you trying to kid here, anyway? Stop embarrassing yourself and FOAD already. Cease while you're still behind. You might be able to save what little dignity you have remaining.

What sets Hooters waitresses apart from other women is that they're real, genuine ladies. They are the perfect combination of brains and beauty. Many of the ladies who work at Hooters are also college students and working towards degrees in their respective fields. Unlike the snobby waitresses who work at other restaurants, Hooters Girls are always game for a good conversation. But don't mistake their kindess for blindness. As I mentioned earlier, Hooters has strict policies toward sexual harrassment and will not tolerate lecherous customers who try to overstep their boundaries.

Anyone who says that Hooters servers are being paid to act friendly is lying. The ones whom I personally know are extremely genuine in their affections for me and always anticipate my arrival. As a matter of fact, I just recently went out to the movies with one of my friends who works at Hooters. We had an excellent time together and will be going out again soon, probably some time after Christmas. If you want to see a photo of her, keep dreaming. Out of respect to my friends at Hooters, I vehemently refuse to post any pictures of them on a public forum. I don't want to release their identities to a loser like you.
Posted by HootersFan on December 22, 2009 at 11:48 AM · Report this
Uriel-238 209
I dunno, HootersFan. My last girlfriend was a server at Le Petit Robert, was as sharp as a particle accelerator, knew grace and poise beyond the comprehension of most Americans (including me) and was as gorgeous as a Pacific sunset. And flowers grew where she walked -- literally, as she was an accomplished horticulturist.

Prior girlfriends also include an paleontological biologist, a neopagan priestess, a fine artist (oils and watercolors), an author / publishing magnate and a jewelry designer, each of them a stunning, brilliant human being in her own right, and in some instances (plural), a self-proclaimed incarnation of the virgin-bitch-mother-slut-goddess. So these otherworldly femmes of Hooters may have some stiff competition.

But do tell me more of these creatures fantastique you call Hooters Girls™, how they have won you over, how you'll never love another, and how all my past paramours will fade into oblivion under their enchanting thrall. So far, I'm unimpressed.
Posted by Uriel-238 on December 22, 2009 at 4:41 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 210
Am I, Bryan? Am I?
Posted by Uriel-238 on December 22, 2009 at 4:56 PM · Report this
211
Uriel, you seriously need to cut out the lame attempts at sarcasm. It's the only resort you have left since I've already refuted your illogical "Hooters exploits women" argument." If you want to play mind games, then count me out.

You know, the people who cry and whine about Hooters being sexist really do remind me of the drug warriors who try to convince teenagers that marijuana is the devil and will ruin their lives. Both groups rely on exaggerations, bogus statistics, and outright lies. I trust that you've heard of Partnership for a Drug-Free America. They've produced so many TV commercials, print ads, and radio commercials that are just as flawed as your arguments.

Case in point: One of the first PDFA spots that aired in 1987 showed two different brain wave charts: one for a normal 14 year-old, the other for a 14 year-old "on marijuana." Dr. Donald Blum of the UCLA Neurological Studies Center and several other researchers debunked this ad when they wrote to both PDFA and KABC in Los Angeles and reported that they had conducted over 10,000 studies on the brain waves of people after they'd smoked marijuana. Not once did a case of flattened brain waves appear in their findings. Furthermore, they also reported that marijuana actually produces alpha waves, which control the creative side of the brain. The Partnership had no choice but to admit that they had lied and had actually used the brain waves of a person in a coma in the ad. Here's the kicker: When ABC reporters interviewed the PDFA, they said something along the lines of that they felt that marijuana was so dangerous that it would better to deceive the public and tell them a lie instead of the truth.

What exactly does this have to do with your demonizing tirades against Hooters? For one, I've debunked your thinly veiled lie about Hooters exploiting the servers, just like Dr. Blum caught the PDFA red-handed. You have no credible evidence to prove that Hooters Girls are being objectified or exploited. You make it sound as if women are being kidnapped off of the streets and forced to work at Hooters, which as we all know isn't the truth. Anyone who works at Hooters does so by her own individual choice. You're relying on cheap scare tactics that have no basis in truth and are so laughable that you make the Partnership look credible by comparison. Your line of thinking is very dangerous and would make George Orwell proud.
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Posted by HootersFan on December 27, 2009 at 4:57 PM · Report this
212 Comment Pulled (Duplicate) Comment Policy
Uriel-238 213
I wasn't being sarcastic, HootersFan. Condescending, maybe, but that's because you've been outright childish this entire thread. (Whereas I only resorted to childish tacts only once I realized you couldn't see reason if sunlight were made of it.)

HootersFan, you seem to be using a definition of the verbs to debunk or to refute of which I wasn't previously aware. I think you've done neither, rather in your last post, you exaggerated and misrepresented what I said.

Seriously, HootersFan, I think you should take this entire dialog to your English and logic instructors, and see what they think of your position. Maybe they might succeed in providing you comprehension of the issue where I failed. Or, if you really think you've succeeded in defending your position, and rebuking mine, HootersFan, your ego shouldn't have anything to fear from doing this.

But you didn't explain this claim of yours, HootersFan, that Hooters Girls™ are the perfect combination of brains and beauty, that they're real, genuine ladies and these traits set [them] apart from other women. It would be unlike you, HootersFan, to concur based on a lack of experience. I take you merely forgot where we were. So please, HootersFan, elaborate for me.

I take your date went well, HootersFan. Yes?
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Posted by Uriel-238 on December 27, 2009 at 10:02 PM · Report this
214
When HootersFan mentioned he has Asperger's syndrome everything started to make sense. But, HootersFan, since you think that Hooters doesn't exploit the sexist and misogynistic impulses some men (not you!) have, how can you defend the signs Hooters puts up, like "Caution Blondes Thinking", or the jokes they have in their magazine, like the one about the hunter wanting his buddy to shoot his wife, or the one about a secretary who's too stupid to realize she's lying naked on a skylight? (Please see the attached pictures and the original article.) If all Hooters was about was: "Women are sexy and I want to look at sexy women," no one in this thread would say that they are sexist or misogynist. Saying "Women are stupid" (ie the Hooters sign saying "Caution Blondes Thinking") is sexist. Calling adult women who work at your establishment "girls" is sexist. Thinking it's funny to joke about killing your wife (ie the "joke" in the magazine) is misogynist. That is what people mean when they say that Hooters capitalizes on sexism. It has nothing to do with sex or Puritanism. It's about a tired, 1950's, lazy approach to thinking that assumes the incompetence, intellectual paucity, and general inferiority of women. Also, you seem to have missed the main point of Uriel's argument entirely, since it was mostly an ECONOMIC argument, the basic premise of which is that if low-wage workers (including but not limited to Hooters Girls) had access to jobs that paid the same amount as, say, wage + tips at Hooters, but didn't involve getting hit on or flirting with customers, lots and lots of those low-wage workers (not all of them!) would chose a job that did not involve those things. His point is that OUR WHOLE ECONOMIC SYSTEM is messed up, and that Hooters is just a symptom of this problem.

Actually, he touched on many different aspects of "what's wrong with Hooters", but let's just start there.
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Posted by Bon on December 28, 2009 at 2:56 PM · Report this
215
whoops! Just read the post where HootersFan calls Lindy a "hag" and a "feminazi." I went out of my way to explain I didn't mean him personally when I talked about mens' sexist impulses, but now I gotta take that back. Never mind, HootersFan, you ARE part of the problem. Don't let anyone tell you different.
Posted by Bon on December 28, 2009 at 3:08 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 216
Bon, your epiphany moment made my day.
Posted by Uriel-238 on December 29, 2009 at 12:48 AM · Report this
217
I dunno, am I the only one who finds it weird when wait staff make a point of being flirty? It feels condescending -- like I'm too lonely to see through the point of the game, or that massaging my ego will open my wallet.

I'm happy enough chatting with my date or enjoying my food. I will tip you well as long as you provide friendly, competent service. Honest: I'm much, much more impressed by you refilling my glass promptly than your fake sexual interest.

Re: Hooters, never been, but it's *so odd* how the women have to wear nude pantyhose.
Posted by Gloria on December 29, 2009 at 1:10 PM · Report this
218
Bon, the whole "Caution: Blondes Thinking" sign is intended to be nothing more than a simple joke. Actually, I think that it's a response to the people who automatically assume that all blondes are shallow and unintelligent. Most of the waitresses who work at my local Hooters are brunettes. There are some blondes, but so far I've yet to meet one at Hooters that would qualify as being a dumb blonde. None of the waitresses that I know there are shallow or juvenile in any shape, form, or manner. I've had some pretty deep and interesting discussions with some of the waitresses at Hooters on different issues (i.e. dating, relationships, college, etc.) Most of the women there are either college students or have already graduated, so you can't accuse them of not having brains. Sure, I like to check out women, but I can treat them like fellow human beings and have intelligent conversations with them, too. Women like to check out men, too. It's part of human nature to desire those who are physically attractive.

The "Hooters Girl" term is nothing more than a job title. It is not a reflection of their intelligence or personality. Don't ASSume that they're stupid just because they wear tank tops and short shorts. I'm proud to be a Hooters regular and I'm the farthest thing from being a sexist. I treat the ladies at Hooters with the utmost respect and always remember their birthdays so that I can buy cards for them. One of my favorite waitresses there personally decorated the place for me and my family when I celebrated my 21st birthday there. All the ladies who work at Hooters genuinely love me and have told me so themselves. Don't pull out the "Hooters waitresses are only nice if you tip them large amounts of money" card, because I already debunked it.

My calling Lindy a "hag" and a "feminazi" is completely justified. Her thinking is not unlike the novel Fahrenheit 451, but instead of burning books, she and her cohorts would be burning down Hooters. She epitomizes everything that I loathe about the PC police. Lindy is too uptight to accept harmless, simple jokes. She has failed to make a convincing argument against the Hooters concept. She relies on scare tactics and thinly veiled lies, two of the most contemptible resorts that anyone can use in a debate.

Bon, you might be interested and surprised that I've see numerous women walk into Hooters for lunch/dinner. Hell, I've seen some women who came into Hooters without any men in their company. They clearly don't have any issues with the Hooters concept and realize that it's just a restaurant.

As far as the jokes in the magazine are concerned, I'll concede that some of them are pretty ridiculous. However, I think that you need to learn the distinction between comedy and hate speech. Richard Pryor used a lot of race material in his stand-up routines, but that didn't make him a racist. I don't ever recall him saying that he wanted a world without whites in a serious manner. Pryor did some fantastic work with Gene Wilder, who is Jewish. OTOH, if you look at Michael Richards's outburst, you'll see that it wasn't intended to be funny. It was a direct attack against someone's color and race. Likewise, Bill Hicks had a on-stage outburst where he singled out a female audience member and used all kinds of derogatory language against her sex and gender. Neither incident was justified and certainly not intended to be part of the act.

Uriel, you just don't know when to throw in the towel, do you? Your pseudo-intellectual psychobabble isn't impressing me one bit. I used the terms "debunk" and "refute" correctly in my earlier post. You made remarks that were without any merit and completely untrue. To debunk is to prove a claim false or incorrect. Same with refuting. The facts which I cited came from reputable, legitimate sources. They have not been altered in any shape, form, or manner to fit my agenda. Facts speak louder than your verbal garbage.

I can qualify my earlier claim about Hooters waitresses being a perfect mix of brains and beauty. The Hooters Girl whom I went on a date with has already graduated from college with a degree in Broadcast Journalism. She's drop-dead gorgeous and a real sweetheart too. She puts all those plastic supermodels to shame. Another one has also graduate with a degree in sociology. She also happens to be a franchise trainer and gets to attend all the new store openings. She makes quite a bit of dough from these openings alone. Out of respect to my friends, I'm not disclosing their names. Nor am I supplying you with photos, not because I don't have any, but because you have no right to obtain any pictures of them. The last thing I'd want is for a dimwit like you to see their pictures and declare them "sexist and degrading." BTW, the date with the Hooters waitress went extremely well. We had a lot of fun together and will be going out again soon, probably this week or the next week.

I don't know whether I should consider myself flattered or insulted by Bon's ASSumption that I'm "part of the problem." Your inane rantings remind me of Tipper Gore and her crusade against heavy metal music and Joe Lieberman's tirades against violent video games. It's fear mongering at its best (or worst, depending on your POV). How people like you, Lindy, and Uriel are allowed access to public places, online or real life, is beyond me.
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Posted by HootersFan on December 29, 2009 at 1:22 PM · Report this
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Bon, the whole "Caution: Blondes Thinking" sign is intended to be nothing more than a simple joke. Actually, I think that it's a response to the people who automatically assume that all blondes are shallow and unintelligent. Most of the waitresses who work at my local Hooters are brunettes. There are some blondes, but so far I've yet to meet one at Hooters that would qualify as being a dumb blonde. None of the waitresses that I know there are shallow or juvenile in any shape, form, or manner. I've had some pretty deep and interesting discussions with some of the waitresses at Hooters on different issues (i.e. dating, relationships, college, etc.) Most of the women there are either college students or have already graduated, so you can't accuse them of not having brains. Sure, I like to check out women, but I can treat them like fellow human beings and have intelligent conversations with them, too. Women like to check out men, too. It's part of human nature to desire those who are physically attractive.

The "Hooters Girl" term is nothing more than a job title. It is not a reflection of their intelligence or personality. Don't ASSume that they're stupid just because they wear tank tops and short shorts. I'm proud to be a Hooters regular and I'm the farthest thing from being a sexist. I treat the ladies at Hooters with the utmost respect and always remember their birthdays so that I can buy cards for them. One of my favorite waitresses there personally decorated the place for me and my family when I celebrated my 21st birthday there. All the ladies who work at Hooters genuinely love me and have told me so themselves. Don't pull out the "Hooters waitresses are only nice if you tip them large amounts of money" card, because I already debunked it.

My calling Lindy a "hag" and a "feminazi" is completely justified. Her thinking is not unlike the novel Fahrenheit 451, but instead of burning books, she and her cohorts would be burning down Hooters. She epitomizes everything that I loathe about the PC police. Lindy is too uptight to accept harmless, simple jokes. She has failed to make a convincing argument against the Hooters concept. She relies on scare tactics and thinly veiled lies, two of the most contemptible resorts that anyone can use in a debate.

Bon, you might be interested and surprised that I've see numerous women walk into Hooters for lunch/dinner. Hell, I've seen some women who came into Hooters without any men in their company. They clearly don't have any issues with the Hooters concept and realize that it's just a restaurant.

As far as the jokes in the magazine are concerned, I'll concede that some of them are pretty ridiculous. However, I think that you need to learn the distinction between comedy and hate speech. Richard Pryor used a lot of race material in his stand-up routines, but that didn't make him a racist. I don't ever recall him saying that he wanted a world without whites in a serious manner. Pryor did some fantastic work with Gene Wilder, who is Jewish. OTOH, if you look at Michael Richards's outburst, you'll see that it wasn't intended to be funny. It was a direct attack against someone's color and race. Likewise, Bill Hicks had a on-stage outburst where he singled out a female audience member and used all kinds of derogatory language against her sex and gender. Neither incident was justified and certainly not intended to be part of the act.

Uriel, you just don't know when to throw in the towel, do you? Your pseudo-intellectual psychobabble isn't impressing me one bit. I used the terms "debunk" and "refute" correctly in my earlier post. You made remarks that were without any merit and completely untrue. To debunk is to prove a claim false or incorrect. Same with refuting. The facts which I cited came from reputable, legitimate sources. They have not been altered in any shape, form, or manner to fit my agenda. Facts speak louder than your verbal garbage.

I can qualify my earlier claim about Hooters waitresses being a perfect mix of brains and beauty. The Hooters Girl whom I went on a date with has already graduated from college with a degree in Broadcast Journalism. She's drop-dead gorgeous and a real sweetheart too. She puts all those plastic supermodels to shame. Another one has also graduate with a degree in sociology. She also happens to be a franchise trainer and gets to attend all the new store openings. She makes quite a bit of dough from these openings alone. Out of respect to my friends, I'm not disclosing their names. Nor am I supplying you with photos, not because I don't have any, but because you have no right to obtain any pictures of them. The last thing I'd want is for a dimwit like you to see their pictures and declare them "sexist and degrading." BTW, the date with the Hooters waitress went extremely well. We had a lot of fun together and will be going out again soon, probably this week or the next week.

I don't know whether I should consider myself flattered or insulted by Bon's ASSumption that I'm "part of the problem." Your inane rantings remind me of Tipper Gore and her crusade against heavy metal music and Joe Lieberman's tirades against violent video games. It's fear mongering at its best (or worst, depending on your POV). How people like you, Lindy, and Uriel are allowed access to public places, online or real life, is beyond me.
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Posted by HootersFan on December 29, 2009 at 1:23 PM · Report this
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So I take consulting your teachers about your arguments here is out, eh HootersFan? Nothing to learn, then?

I take, by your dismissal of the Caution: Blondes Thinking and similar Hooters kitsch as nothing more than a simple joke means you find Polack jokes similarly nothing more than a simple joke (and, consequently, mickey jokes, kyke jokes, nigger Jokes, wop jokes and so on), yes? If there is a difference, what's the point of delineation between what is or is not offensive? That one mocks a sex and the other a race or religion?

I'm glad, for your sake, to hear (read) there's promise of a second date. You might notice I never once asked the woman's name or for pics. I have no reason to distrust your personal accounts, and am glad you hold respect for her privacy. One can hope you'll find the balance in respecting the rest of her without pedestalizing her.

But, throw in the towel, HootersFan? After you told me to FOAD? (Twice, even!) Unless you're entirely daft, you should know by now that's the equivalent of conceding defeat, yourself. It's the same kind of reduction to immaturity that is calling someone a Nazi or hitting. We talked about this before. You should know this already.

Normally, were someone so flustered by my presence I might concede to allow for peace, but you, HootersFan, have painted yourself so repugnant a character, you have been so unapologetically belligerent, so unabashedly disrespectful not only to me, but anyone who dares disagree with you, HootersFan, that I've gained a taste for schadenfreude at your expense. You've all but guaranteed my presence here for the foreseeable future, HootersFan, in hopes you'll compose for me yet another missive of your angst, grief and rage. Bring it on, HootersFan.
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Posted by Uriel-238 on December 29, 2009 at 5:36 PM · Report this
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Caution: Aspie Arguing

Is it ok for me to say something like that?
Posted by Hattie on December 30, 2009 at 12:40 AM · Report this
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Bon - post 214 - I completely agree with everything you mentioned. Thanks for making those excellent points.
Posted by lisapu on December 31, 2009 at 6:04 PM · Report this
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Hattie, your remark was totally below the belt. You obviously have very little or no understanding of the Asperger's (or autism, for that matter) community. As an Aspie, I have faced discrimination from narrow-minded individuals and conquered many obstacles. You do not realize how difficult it is for people who have Asperger's Syndrome. There was a time when I couldn't even talk to women, much less make eye contact with them. That's all in the past now, though. With the support of my family, my doctors, my counselors at college, my friends, and yes, even the waitresses at Hooters, I've become a more sociable person. I couldn't be any more grateful, and now that it's 2010, I can only begin to imagine what accomplishments I'll make in the course of the year.

Uriel, it seems that you also are too dense to realize that there is a fine line between comedy and hate speech. Anyone who takes offense to the "Caution: Blondes Thinking" sign is overrreacting. I don't even consider it a knock on blonde-haired women. I think of it more as a response to the people who automatically assume that blondes are unintelligent and shallow. I've met some blondes, at Hooters and elsewhere, and they're far from being your stereotypical Barbie dolls. As for jokes about race, sex, ethnicity, and other touchy issues, it's all about context. Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, John Valby, Andrew Dice Clay, and numerous other comedians have used jokes about race and sex in their material, but they weren't advocating racism, sexism, or homophobia. The personality that a stand-up comedian creates is not the same as his or her real-life personality. Now, if a KKK or New Black Panther member were telling race jokes, they wouldn't be funny because they're intended to demean another race or ethnicity. I do not advocate racism, sexism, homophobia, or any other form of discrimination. Being an Aspie, I know what discrimination is like. But I do think that if we just settled down and learned how to laugh at ourselves instead of overreacting to everything, we'd be better off as a society.

Since the fall semester just ended, I'm not in a position of bringing this debate to any of my professors. Nor do I intend on taking it into any of my winter/spring classes. I know in my heart and mind that I've already won this debate. I wrote a commentary for my college's newspaper about Hooters and how its critics are wrong about their perceptions of the concept. Every person whom I've shown this article to, including my family, friends, counselors, and even the waitresses at Hooters, agrees with all the points that I've made in defending Hooters. And (gasp!) I was able to do it without insulting anybody.

You see, Uriel, I'm only belligerent when someone either directly attacks me or something that I am fiercely passionate about. Your failure to grasp that Hooters is not a demeaning institution or that it has made numerous charitable contributions to many reputable organizations are evidence of your lack of reading comprehension. I've linked about 11 sites regarding Hooters giving back to the communities and you had the audacity to question their motives. Did you even read any of those stories? What about the statement from Ed Droste, one of the co-founders of Hooters, who openly said that he loves how his company supports different causes and that he supports them as well? It's really sad that you have to assume that Hooters has hidden motives and that they are not a generous company. Last time I checked, there was nothing misogynistic about donating to the Special Olympics, Juvenile Diabetes Foundation, V Foundation for Cancer Research, and Muscular Dystrophy Associateion, to name a few of the organizations with which Hooters is allied. Hooters even established a fund dedicated to one of their own, Kelly Jo Dowd, a Hooters manager and waitress who passed away from breast cancer in 2007. They partnered with the V Foundation for Cancer Research to start this fund and have raised over $1 million dollars for the grant since 2006. Now that's something that anyone ought to stand up and applaud.

See, Uriel, I was able to respond to your comment without resorting to profanity or insulting.
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Posted by HootersFan on January 1, 2010 at 7:50 AM · Report this
Uriel-238 224
HootersFan, if you started out civil, and stayed that way, I might be willing to take you seriously right now, but you started your first post dismissively, "You morons who bash Hooters are some of the most narrow-minded, dense idiots I've ever come across." It's not exactly the best way to encourage folk to consider what you have to say. I was generous in trying to reason with you, yet you only got worse.

I'm not going to explain to you why Hooters' generosity, which, agreed, you've backed with news articles, is neither surprising nor indemnifying; I already have. You've since made it clear that your passion for Hooters prevents you from considering it might be less than saintly, no matter the reason.

And then, juxtaposition of the beginnings of your first and second paragraphs in your most recent post is both ironic and telling. You are as self-deluded and consequently hypocritical as divorcees who protest that gay marriage is nontraditional.

Keep practicing being civil, and you'll eventually get results, but be assured it will take time and consistency.
Posted by Uriel-238 on January 2, 2010 at 12:13 AM · Report this
Uriel-238 225
Oh, and this post from you, HootersFan, won you an award. Congrats!
Posted by Uriel-238 on January 2, 2010 at 1:42 AM · Report this
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HootersFan, please provide us with rules to correctly determine where the fine line between comedy and hate speech lies.

How does one know that "Caution: Blondes Thinking" is indisputably inoffensive, where "Caution: Auspies Arguing" is below the belt?

How does one differentiate between Michael Richards calling some black people out and Chris Rock doing the same, with the same word? Dick Gregory is a member militant organizations, what about him?

HootersFan did mention context as a determining factor, but would need to elaborate for that to make a rule.
Posted by Hooters of South Park killed Kenny on January 2, 2010 at 5:30 PM · Report this
227
who gives a shit?
Posted by "who gives a shit?" guy on January 2, 2010 at 7:46 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 228
Obviously, you do, "Who Gives A Shit" Guy, since you're here asking at comment #227. A lot of folks do, since the discussion continues, and HootersFan does, given he can't let be anyone who disagrees with him.

If none of us gave a shit, we wouldn't be here in the 200s, two months after the fact.
Posted by Uriel-238 on January 3, 2010 at 8:57 PM · Report this
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Hmm, Uriel, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with you equating blonde jokes to "polack jokes" (or polack jokes to "nigger jokes," or you calling them nigger jokes instead of "black jokes" or something), but maybe I misunderstand. Nice points for the most part.
Posted by Jenn32 on January 4, 2010 at 1:25 PM · Report this
Uriel-238 230
Blonde jokes ridicule women the same way that Polack jokes ridicule Poles or Nigger jokes ridicule African Americans (and so on), by perpetuating the stereotype. If I'd hazard a guess at what Hootersfan was trying to say, it's acceptable to indulge in these occasionally when it's self-ridicule or it's juxtaposed with similar racial humor to create a circular or linear paradigm (of which, for example, Dave Chappelle was notorious, but even he was disillusioned and discontinued his series due to the repercussions of the humor on his fan-base.)

The problem is, Jenn32, some of the stereotypes on which these are based are still commonly assumed by those without experience with the group in question. Women are still presumed by many to be generally unintelligent and emotional. Blacks (Africans and African Americans) are still thought to be primitive and unsophisticated. Jews are still thought to be miserly, nepotic and damned. More importantly, none of these groups have achieved social equality with Anglo-Saxon males in the US, so jokes at their expense should be indulged with care.

If Hooters were a woman-run business, I might be more relaxed about their choice of humor and style. If women were equal to men in the US (i.e. had unregulated access to comprehensive health care, could serve in all positions in the military, made, on average, the same amount men did in similar jobs, were elected President of the United States a few times, etc.) I'd be more relaxed about blonde jokes. Until then, I'm content to reserve their usage to women (naturally blonde or otherwise) such as Julie Brown who get it.

One might argue that blonde jokes don't affect all women, just those that are blonde (either naturally so or those who've lightened their hair by choice), and there is a syndrome that comes with blond hair (or in the US, with large breasts) in which youths so endowed have to work less hard to get what they want and end up lacking in character, but this isn't true for all blondes, and the stereotype of blondes is very real and often expected, not unlike that of Gingers in the UK. And the implication remains that girls who are spoiled early (regardless of hair-color or Scandinavian genes) turn out to be more stupid then boys who are similarly spoiled.
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Posted by Uriel-238 on January 4, 2010 at 11:57 PM · Report this
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Okay Uriel, this is going to be my FINAL (capitalized for emphasis) reply, and then I'm done. No more. I mean it. I've said my piece and you've said yours. Nothing more needs to be articulated on this topic.

I think I can defend the tone of my initial post. First of all, I found Lindy's piece to be a classic example of fearmongering. Her criticisms against Hooters are based on lies and exaggerations. It is impossible to argue civilly with someone who is so oblivious to the truth.

Secondly, I don't think that anyone can make a convincing argument against the Hooters concept because anyone who does so relies on one of two assumptions. The most common and annoying one is that it exploits women, which completely ignores the fact that these ladies voluntarily choose to work at Hooters. As I said earlier, exploitation is a violation of a person's individual will. Last time I checked, working at a restaurant by your accord does not define "exploitation." Rape, slavery, child abuse, and hazing are all examples of exploitation.

The second, and equally laughable, argument that is brought against Hooters is that it's sinful and immoral. Anyone who can think freely without allowing others to form their opinions knows that when you use religion to condemn anything (strip clubs, heavy metal music, violent video games, etc.), you automatically lose. It's akin to the Godwin's Law, only with bible-thumpers instead of Nazis.

As far as my earlier post winning an award is concerened, whoop-de-doo. I'm not bothered in the slightest that you and your cohorts find me to be "unabashedly disrespectful" and "unapologetically belligerent." Well, like the old cliche goes, I'm only an asshole to people who are assholes. I'm actually a very pleasant person who can have civil disagreements with others. It's just that you and Lindy use scare tactics, exaggerations, and outright lies to support your arguments, which lends neither one of you any credibility. If I didn't know any better, I'd swear that you and Lindy were Joseph Lieberman and Tipper Gore posting under phony identities, respectively.

If the "Caution: Blonde Thinking" sign were used in a malicious, disrespectful manner, then I'd protest it for being sexist. But if you were to wake up and smell the coffee, you'd realize that the signs at Hooters and the jokes in their magazines are just that, jokes. Sounds to me like you're too uptight to understand that simple fact. However, you were correct in assuming that I feel that sterotypical humor is acceptable when it's either self-ridicule or mixed with other stereotypes to be an equal opportunity offender. Now if someone tells these jokes in a situation where they want to verbalize their hated of a particular group, then it's crossing the boundaries of good taste and entering outright bigotry (i.e. the KKK, Fred Phelps, New Black Panthers, etc.). These groups and others intend these jokes to be hurtful and demeaning toward someone's race, sexual orientation, sex, color, or religion.

No, I don't consider women to be shallow and unintelligent, or blacks to be uneducated and unintellible, or Jews to be selfish. I have had social experiences with people of all sexes, colors, ages, races, and sexual orientations. Not once have I evaluated an individual according to stereotypes that are associated with their backgrounds. I recognize everyone for who they are and do not discriminate.

In closing, I sincerely wish you the best in life. And I also sincerely hope that one day you finally wake up and stop listening to the hysterical, illogical rantings of fearmongers like Lindy. Learn how to be a free thinker and form your own views. Meanwhile, I'll continue to succeed in college, dating, my career, and everything else in life. Take care.
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Posted by HootersFan on January 5, 2010 at 8:29 PM · Report this
232
Eat it Uriel-238 - One post addressed to HootersFan from me and he posts his (and note the all caps for emphasis), FINAL reply.

I win teh internets!
Posted by Hooters of South Park killed Kenny on January 8, 2010 at 10:19 AM · Report this
Uriel-238 233
I question HootersFan's ability to stand by his word that his post is the last, since he changed his mind before, but, granted if he does, Hooters of South Park killed Kenny, I humbly bow to the superior master, and concede teh internets to you.

However, I still get my parting shot. Stay tuned...
Posted by Uriel-238 on January 8, 2010 at 5:37 PM · Report this
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You know, I know this thread hasn't had a new post for a while, but I finally got around to seeing if HootersFan had replied to me, and I was struck by something interesting. HootersFan is defending Hooters with the same sort of angry, hateful tenacity that evangelicals get if anyone dares say anything about their particular brand of Christianity. He has all the hallmarks: the blind rage at anyone daring to dispute your faith, the name calling, the absolute refusal to admit anyone else has a point, the misreading and mischaracterising of everyone else's arguments, the declaring victory even though you haven't answered a single one of your opponent's points. I wonder how it feels to go out on a date with a minor deity from your religion...or would a single Hooters waitress be more like a saint? What would the hierarchy be of the Church of the Heavenly Tits and Hot Wings?
Posted by Bon on January 16, 2010 at 10:41 AM · Report this
235
Someone wake up HootersFan!

I just saw a promo for the upcoming "Undercover Boss" where "the CEO of Hooters goes undercover and discovers the ugly truth"!

Apparently "reindeer games" will be proposed and perhaps even engaged in.

Unfortunately, his disguise does not appear to involve those orange shorts and stockings.
Posted by Hooters of South Park killed Kenny on February 10, 2010 at 4:00 PM · Report this
236
If there was anything that could reflect the filth in modern mainstream american culture, it's not hooters, but in the vast majority of these comments. People are in need of serious philosophical enlightenment, before they start spewing crap about what the concept of "exploitation" is. Racism and Sexism may try to hide behind the label "entertainment", but in this world, most evil begins with our mediums of "entertainment".
Posted by MMM on June 15, 2010 at 8:04 AM · Report this
237
This place in south park does smell like poop and the girls there are UGLY no one with class would attend that place EVER. Joeys has way better looking girls.
Posted by Beeebeop on June 23, 2010 at 9:08 PM · Report this
238
@Hooters of South Park killed Kenny:

I recently watched a clip from that show of the CEO watching on in shock as a few Hooters Girls succumbed to the demeaning bean-eating which they were instructed to do by their boss, and I must say it was quite enlightening on the attitudes of the boss.

By the way, if there is anyone still reading the comments this low down, they might be interested in reading the following article about Hooters Girls in an Alabama branch, who were told,
"If you need the extra money, go ahead and suck a dick or fuck a customer if the money is right," and when their assistant manager complained about this behaviour, he was sacked:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/041…
Posted by Latecomer on July 12, 2010 at 7:00 PM · Report this
239 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
240
I cringed when I read this article. Just simply degrading. I would rather that men keep this sordid fantasies in their minds instead of bringing them to life in these restaurants where big busted, scantily dressed women serve chicken wings. All sh** like this just angers me. Soooo sexist. Sooooooosoooooooooooooosoooooooooooo sexist. I can't believe this is 2011.
Posted by goddess on September 30, 2011 at 2:51 PM · Report this
241
Uriel was awesome here. Good point by Bon...Hooterfan's refusal to acknowledge any of Uriel's points or how his stupidity won an award blows my mind. Of course, his admission of Ausberger's made it all make sense...Poor guy.
Posted by aeros66 on January 8, 2012 at 12:37 PM · Report this
242
My first question, is anyone forced to go to Hooters? What's that? No?
Ok.
My second question, is anyone forced to work at Hooters? No again.
I see.

Here's a thought: how about you idiots STFU. It's a free country, I like freedom and I have no problem with Hooters what. so. ever.

I swear, sometimes Seattle has way too much sand up it's vagina.
Posted by montex on January 13, 2012 at 7:38 PM · Report this
243
Hooters sounds horrible and embarrassing.
I agree with this article entirely.

I think, having flicked through the comments, that many people disagree with the anti-misogyny stance here, which is fine because opinions are like assholes & everyone has one.

I'm just glad we don't have Hooters in Ireland.
Posted by Jessica Maybury on June 20, 2013 at 7:58 AM · Report this
244
I wondered why this article was back in the most commented section, then I reread the part about the hypothetical racist restaurant and was like wow that is a way better elucidation of why Paula Deen's ideas really are racist than any I've seen lately in the news coverage. In Lindy's article, the racist restaurant is an extreme example that sheds light on the wrongness of something everyone tolerates because it is mundane, but in the context of the news about Paula Deen it is satire of a wrong thing that Paula Deen tolerates, and that we are debating whether or not we should tolerate, because Paula Deen is so mundane. What was that about the banality of evil? I heart lindy.
Posted by 456zxc on June 27, 2013 at 10:33 AM · Report this

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