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News & ArtsWednesday, June 23, 2010
Savage Love Selfish Lovers Are Better Sex
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 2:59 PM
"We have discovered that neither of us particularly cares if we, ourselves, reach orgasm," a woman wrote me at "Savage Love" back in April, "but we both care very deeply that the other is satisfied." Their sex life sucked and she wanted to know what she could do about it. My advice:
One of you is going to have to nut/ovum up and get selfish. You're both so giving, so unconcerned with your own pleasure, so invested in pleasing your partner. And all of that sounds so wonderful in theory—who doesn't want a completely selfless sex partner?—but in practice, selfless sex partners make lousy lays. Giving is great, but in every truly great sexual encounter, someone is taking: taking charge, taking over, taking control, giving pleasure to their partner by taking pleasure from their partner.And if it's not going to be him, SANA, it'll have to be you. Take a look at where your concern for his satisfaction has gotten you, SANA, and repeat after me: "Fuck him and fuck his satisfaction." Then ask yourself these questions: What do I want? What turns me on? What do I want to experience and explore? You're not doomed if you can come up with the answers to those questions, SANA, but if you can't, well, then I'm afraid you are doomed. Doomed to lousy sex in this relationship, for as long as it lasts, and doomed to lousy sex in your next relationship if you wind up with another guy who's as "giving" as you are.
And now the science backs me up:
Study: Selfish Lovers Are Better in BedA new study defies the common belief that those who focus on their partners’ needs in bed make the best lovers. The findings were presented at the Association for Psychological Science convention in Boston and conducted by Kwantlen Polytechnic University’s Hayley Leveque and Cory Pederson.
The researchers studied 60 couples, half of whom were between the ages of 18 and 25 and the other half over the age of 30. Participants were asked about their motivations for having sex and their levels of sexual satisfaction with their current partners. Those in the younger age group were more self-focused and their reasons for having sex included being horny and seeking pleasure. Those over the age of 30 were more likely to list showing love and affection for their partner as a reason for engaging in sexual activity.
What was most surprising was the fact that a high level of sexual self-focus was positively correlated with a partner’s level of sexual satisfaction.
"We found that as a partner's sexual self-focus decreased, their partner's satisfaction decreased," says Leveque. "You would think it would be exactly the opposite, with a partner being more attentive to the other partner's needs, but that's not what we found. It was sort of counterintuitive."
Counterintuitive unless, like me, you have good counterintuition.
2
I hope this holds true for other things as well, because in addition to being a selfish lover I am selfish in nearly every aspect of my life!
3
In my experience, it doesn't even have to be a great act of selfishness or any elaborate power fantasy. It can be something as simple as thinking "I want to get laid".
5
Except correlation isn't causation. Maybe people who enjoy sex more also just happen to be selfish. Or maybe there's some other thing that explains both (less inhibitions, higher self-image, etc.)
They should really do an experiment to figure out the direction.
They should really do an experiment to figure out the direction.
6
Did they control for age? I would think that 18-25 year olds are more likely to report having better sex partly cuz they are young and partly because they don't know any better.
7
hey dan, why don't you pat yourself on the back again... hehehe, your selfish, you must be a good lay... har har... gee, you're clever
9
yeah, the sex with a douchebag loser/self absorbed jerk is fine for what it is @ the time;
but too often not fun nor rewarding in the longterm, usually crappy and played out for everyone, 'cause it has such little potential beyond self perceived needs met.
but too often not fun nor rewarding in the longterm, usually crappy and played out for everyone, 'cause it has such little potential beyond self perceived needs met.
11
Good god. Could they actually publish some frickin' numbers here with the study? In a study of 60 couples, the statistics could be wildly skewed by 5 couples acting a little bit differently from the rest. If they found that 80% of the couples who acted selfishly were more satisfied, then that would be a statistic worth putting your word behind. If on the other hand, it was a margin of 5 or 10% (ie, 60% of couples behaving in way Y), then this study is utterly meaningless, especially considering its size. The statistical accuracy of this study is probably somewhere around +-15-20%!
Worse yet, the participants more than likely could figure out what the point of the study was, and therefore gave the interviewer what they thought was the "right" answer, rather than the answer that reflects the reality of their relationship.
Just because a study backs up your argument doesn't mean that the study is worth the paper it's printed on.
That said, your advice to the letter is pretty good.
Worse yet, the participants more than likely could figure out what the point of the study was, and therefore gave the interviewer what they thought was the "right" answer, rather than the answer that reflects the reality of their relationship.
Just because a study backs up your argument doesn't mean that the study is worth the paper it's printed on.
That said, your advice to the letter is pretty good.
12
Maybe it's because they're more experienced. Instead of waiting around for "the love of their lives" to come around lose their virginity to in holy matrimony, they go out and bone whoever's available whenever they're horny, thus racking up tons more experience than those who only want to make sweet, tender love to their soul-mate.
13
This is incredibly bigoted reporting. So Jews can't be good in bed? And the many people who are allergic to shellfish, they're doomed too?
14
I don't think it's that counterintuitive that those motivated by "showing love for their partner" and not sexual satisfaction are going to be lousy in bed at all. Also not sure it's the same thing as greedy vs. un-greedy at all.
15
Oh wow. It's just like that fable about the woman who sold her implants to buy her husband a bra for Christmas. Or something.
16
I think an important factor is whether getting the other person off gets YOU off, as well.
Some people like giving blowjobs because of the pleasure it brings their partner. Other people like dick in their mouth, and part of what gets them off is the cum at the end.
I think probably the latter group gives better blowjobs.
Some people like giving blowjobs because of the pleasure it brings their partner. Other people like dick in their mouth, and part of what gets them off is the cum at the end.
I think probably the latter group gives better blowjobs.
17
I think a lot of people get turned on at the thought of being fiercely sexually desired, and get off on their partner's pleasure. Thus they need a partner who "selfishly" desires them and takes pleasure in them rather than self-sacrificingly catering to their needs. The way this study is defining "selfish" is kind of misleading, I think; really it seems more about owning your genuine sexual pleasure, and balancing that with being GGG.
18
It's fun to see how your partner "wants" sex -- that's why you're together, right? The 'come on, please me!' look is one of the hottest parts of sex for me. It's so easy to feel good, sexy, and horny at the look of a partner who's so into it s/he doesn't even seem to notice you're there doing something -- a partner who'll say 'why didya STOP??!' if you even dare stop.
Indeed, one of the intringuing/beautiful things about sex is how much the other's pleasure triggers your own. One might imagine it was made to foster harmony. That we often don't get harmonous relationships out of it is evidence of how humans can screw anything up.
Indeed, one of the intringuing/beautiful things about sex is how much the other's pleasure triggers your own. One might imagine it was made to foster harmony. That we often don't get harmonous relationships out of it is evidence of how humans can screw anything up.
19
What was most surprising was the fact that a high level of sexual self-focus was positively correlated with a partner’s level of sexual satisfaction.
Interesting. That's in general, of course, and there are always exceptions to generalities. When I think about the four women I've been with who were the best lovers -- who always got me turned on and were GGG for most things -- three of them had that sexual self-focus but one did not. She was very focused on me and my pleasure and that didn't give me a lower level of satisfaction at all. In fact, I thought it was hot.
And to make matters more interesting, of those four, she was by far the most self-absorbed out of bed. She was the kind of person who always had to be the center of attention, talked a lot but was a poor listener, etc. You'd think a person who was like that would be the same self-centered way in bed but she wasn't.
Interesting. That's in general, of course, and there are always exceptions to generalities. When I think about the four women I've been with who were the best lovers -- who always got me turned on and were GGG for most things -- three of them had that sexual self-focus but one did not. She was very focused on me and my pleasure and that didn't give me a lower level of satisfaction at all. In fact, I thought it was hot.
And to make matters more interesting, of those four, she was by far the most self-absorbed out of bed. She was the kind of person who always had to be the center of attention, talked a lot but was a poor listener, etc. You'd think a person who was like that would be the same self-centered way in bed but she wasn't.
20
@5- I agree, in fact, this looks to me like a classic error of causation. Think about it: when are people more likely to be less selfish during sex? When a partner is showing signs of dissatisfaction, of course. So the dissatisfaction is likely the cause of the unselfishness, rather than the other way around.
21
So what are the chances that those over 30 were in marriage/ltr, unlike those 18-25? Don't like 50% of Savage Love advice seekers complain that their sex life is not as satisfying as it was in the beginning of their relationship?
23
This sounds like a relationship with two Pleasers, which is going to be about as successful as a relationship with two Bottoms.
24
My poor dude looked so hurt and confused when I told him to be more selfish. He whined that was agaisnt what he has been taught. Poor poor selfless boy. WELL UNLEARN MOST OF THE BULLSHIT YOU'VE BEEN TAUGHT AND SCREW ME WITH THE LOOK OF A DOG ON YOUR FACE!!!
25
Dan, Dan, Dan -- haven't you ever heard the saying, "Young, dumb, and full of come?"
While I agree, in large part, with the Dan Savage version of "greed is good", it sounds like these results could just be auto-correlated, i.e. it should be no surprise that younger people tend to have hot, vigorous sex (within presumably newer relationships); and, conversely, that there will be more members of a long term committed relationship past its initial heights of lusty self-fulfillment. Or that these respective relationship types might be disposed to certain types of sex. Which isn't to say that "selfishness" isn't supreme, but rather that the conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from the path of its logical antecedents. It could just as easily read, "young (and probably easily satisfied) people have hot sex". As a guy who's had a fair diversity of perhaps too much sex, and appreciates all ages, I'll also admit that younger women (and, though I think to a lesser extent, younger men) have stronger libidos and are more physically attractive than their (slightly?) more aged counterparts. Surpise? Bah ha ha.
While I agree, in large part, with the Dan Savage version of "greed is good", it sounds like these results could just be auto-correlated, i.e. it should be no surprise that younger people tend to have hot, vigorous sex (within presumably newer relationships); and, conversely, that there will be more members of a long term committed relationship past its initial heights of lusty self-fulfillment. Or that these respective relationship types might be disposed to certain types of sex. Which isn't to say that "selfishness" isn't supreme, but rather that the conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from the path of its logical antecedents. It could just as easily read, "young (and probably easily satisfied) people have hot sex". As a guy who's had a fair diversity of perhaps too much sex, and appreciates all ages, I'll also admit that younger women (and, though I think to a lesser extent, younger men) have stronger libidos and are more physically attractive than their (slightly?) more aged counterparts. Surpise? Bah ha ha.
26
I'm the kind of selfish lover they talk about, and if I don't take charge in bed, my husband would reach orgasm before me and would never please me. It's proven after some years in our marriage that if I'm not pushing him for sex, he wouldn't do it. After all this years together he is still impressed of my sex drive and he says I'm the best fuck ever. Is not like everyone has to be selfish. Is just the way it works for each couple. One person has to take charge. Some couples like to take turns, some persons want to be used, some want to be pleased. I'm the kind that likes to be pleased, and for some guys it's the hottest thing ever.
27
Maybe instead of asking them on the level of sexual satisfaction, they should ask them if they had multiple orgasm, squirting orgasm, or full body orgasm.... because I bet most of these young couples have never experience none of those.... it reminds me of some of my exes, they all had been with selfish lovers before (that used them for their own sexual pleasure) and they used to think they were by far their best lovers.... but then when they finally experience their first full body orgasm or first squirting orgasm.... they were like I never knew there was another level of sexual satisfaction.
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