Love the column and the podcast, which I read/listen to via the SL iPhone app, good stuff all around. Long time listener, first time caller, blah blah blah. A little background: I’m a straight-identified 30-year-old male, but for about as long as I can remember I’ve had a touch of the bi. I’m mostly into women, but I fantasize about guys with some regularity. My guy-on-guy fantasies exclusively involve men of the young-looking, hairless, effeminate/twink variety. The mental image of a mustachioed middle-aged bear doesn’t do anything for me. But I’ve never actually hooked up with a guy, not even a little, so these fantasies have lived strictly in the realm of my imagination.
Here’s the problem: I’ve been dating an awesome woman. We get along great, she’s totally GGG, it’s a fulfilling relationship emotionally and sexually. She’s someone I could definitely see myself spending the rest of my life with. Am I absolutely obligated to tell her about these fantasies? Even if I have cause to believe she would be totally turned off by them?
I’ve gone this long satisfying my boy crush with my head and my hand and a few choice porn files on the laptop and I honestly think I could live the rest of my life without ever sucking a dick. There’s always a small part of me that wonders what it would be like to fulfill these fantasy scenarios, of course, but when I sit down and really think about it, it begins to fall apart. I certainly can’t picture myself dating a guy or walking down the street holding hands with a guy. But I can’t deny that some dudes do turn me on.
I know people in relationships are supposed to reveal every last intimate detail with their partner, but am I allowed to keep this one secret, even though it’s kind of a big one?
Dan, Eagerly Needing Your Thoughtful, Helpful Endorsement to Bullshit my Intimate
My response after the jump…
Your sign-off violates all the rules, DENYTHEBI, as it’s too long, it includes punctuation marks, you name me, and you have to skip two words get the acronym you’re straining for. But I’m letting it slide because it lets us know what you really want: my permission to withhold this information from—or deny the bi to—the woman you hope to spend the rest of your life with.
Sorry, DENYTHEBI, permission denied. I think you should tell her.
It’s not that I believe being in a relationship requires one to reveal every last intimate detail to a partner. Where the hell did you get that? Relationships aren’t depositions, we’re not under oath, we can hold some stuff back and still be good partners. (We have to hold some stuff back to be good partners.) No, it’s that I don’t think this particular secret is one you’ll be able to successfully keep over the next four or five decades. Even if she’s too dense and/or clueless to notice you noticing all the pretty gay waiters you’ll encounter over the years, DENYTHEBI, sooner or later she’ll stumble over those “choice porn files” on your laptop.
And not only isn’t this a secret you can keep, DENYTHEBI, it’s not one you should want to keep or have to keep. While we don’t have to tell our partners everything, being nearly-to-fully open with our partners about the shit that turns us on makes for a much less stressful life. It’s definitely something worth holding out for, DENYTHEBI. So tell her. If she’s threatened by this aspect of your sexuality—if she thinks you’re going to come out and run off with a hairy dude—reassure her by explaining that you’ve always been strongly attracted to feminine traits. Consequently women draw your eye almost exclusively, without question, but occasionally a feminine dude blips onto your radar just like the odd butch dyke occasionally blips onto mine.
Treat it like it’s not a big deal, have a sense of humor about it, and hopefully she’ll react the same way. If she doesn’t react well—if she flips the out—then she isn’t the right partner for you, DENYTHEBI.
This question is like the 80s all over again.
Oh, God, closeted bis are so interesting … but at least he’s willing to ask for advice instead of suppress it like most Republican members of Congress.
Oh, go ahead, suck a dick. You know you want to. Just do it.
DAN SAVAGE
Loved you on Citizen Radio
I, also, have been tripped up by a cute butch dyke on occasion. Glad to know Dan and I have something in common other than the geigh.
Nope, I don’t agree with you, Dan. He’s never going to act on this, right? And she’d get upset about it if he told her, right? So what’s to be gained by “sharing” this with her? Abso-fucking-lutely nothing.
@6 – Why do you assume she’d be upset by it? In my experience, many women would find that extremely hot.
@6: Uh-uh, Dan nails this one, per usual. If she can’t handle his minor bi attraction, she’s a scrotum who (that?) doesn’t deserve him.
Agree with Geni. LW should hold out for someone who sees this as a plus. This isn’t something he should have to keep under wraps.
Well, Geni, the phrase “even if I have cause to believe she would be totally turned off by them?” might have given me my first clue.
Hell, she may take the opportunity to suggest a MFM three-way with some cute bi twink.
@11 Not when they have daddy issues.
I’m with Vince @3. He has had this fantasy a long time, and he is curious about the real thing. He should figure out how he feels about the cock, before establishing a family.
Why does he have cause to believe she wouldn’t be into it? My goodness, in this situation he must be on pins and needles trying to interpret her every glance and comment on the subject of Teh Bi. He needs to take a good look at his “evidence” and give his gf the benefit of the doubt, especially if his evidence is less than damning.
Also, yeah, he can’t let his fear of losing her over this issue rule him. Right now he’s clinging to a really unstable status quo by keeping a secret like this. Don’t deny the bi!!!
I dont think this is a big secret. I think people can have fantasies that they don’t want to enact, and don’t have to tell their partner about…that said I think Dan got it spot on. The fact that he wrote this letter, and the way he wrote it, shows how important it is to him. Just tell her, whats the worst that can happen? She hates it? well then put it back in your head if you still want to stay with her. Worst case, you are essentially back where you are now anyway, only you know a bit more about what kind of person she is…
@ 6 – That’s one line you should never believe: “I’ve had these fantasies all my life, but I’ll never act them out”.
How does he know that he won’t? He’s probably got 50 more years to live. That’s a long time not to act out your fantasies… Actually, he sounds like he’s trying to convince himself of that more than anything… which is a sure sign that he’s not that convinced about it. The mere fact that he seems bothered enough about the whole thing to write to Dan kind of indicates that his fantasies represent a bit more to him than he’s willing to tell us.
@ 11 and 13 – The Misanthrope is right. I never had much success with twinks until I grew a beard in my mid-30’s (not even when I was a twink myself), and the whiter the beard gets, the more I get those come-hither looks from younger and younger twinks… with daddy issues, obviously (“I just adore mature men, they have so much to teach me” – actual pick-up line I was recently given by a twink). Funnily enough (!), now that I’m middle-aged, I’m strictly into the mustachiod middle-aged bear types.
I’ve always wondered who it is that’s creating the huge market for the endless boring hairless-blond-androgynous-teen porn.
I agree, he wants this more than he’s admitting. The tip-off for me was when he said he can’t imagine dating or holding hands. Way to change the subject, dude.
Before our sex-drives kicks-in, and after it wanes, aren’t we all substantially faggy? Is that really an identity-shattering revelation? I worked as a cashier through college, and old men and women alike took the opportunity to stroke my hands if I was casual about where I left them. Near death, we stop caring about hiding our urges anymore.
All the bullying comes from the jocks because they feel obliged to deny the sausage-fest we call high-school football. If we want to cut bullying, government funding of schools should come with the requirement football uniforms should be pink.
Just throwing it out there, but if the guy I was dating had a touch of the bi, I’d be thrilled. Lots of women are turned on by the thought of two guys together, just as many straight men are turned on by the thought of two girls. Therefore, I think Dan is right with this one. There’s a good chance that DENYTHEBI’s girlfriend won’t be as turned off as he thinks. They might even get to have some awesome three-ways.
withholding the desire to fuck someone of your own gender from someone (opposite sex) that you want a ltr with seems kind of dickish to me. i’m neutral on the deal but i appreciate disclosure, as it puts cards on the table to allow a dialogue, and educated decisions.
@ 19 – True. He wants the sex, just not the social baggage that comes with admitting it.
@ 21 – But he’d have to be honest with himself before he gets to accept that. As it stands, his potentially offended girlfriend is probably his only excuse for not admitting to himself that he truly is bi.
Am I absolutely obligated to tell her about these fantasies? Even if I have cause to believe she would be totally turned off by them? . . . I know people in relationships are supposed to reveal every last intimate detail with their partner,
That’s not a rule I’ve ever heard. I think some fantasies are best left unshared, especially if the fantasy isn’t that big of a deal to you, you don’t really want to act on it and you’re pretty sure your partner will find it revolting.
As for this particular fantasy, I’d say there’s a greater than 50 percent chance that she’ll be turned off by it. But if he decides to tell her, hopefully he’ll get lucky.
I’m mostly into women, but I fantasize about guys with some regularity. My guy-on-guy fantasies exclusively involve men of the young-looking, hairless, effeminate/twink variety.
That makes me curious. Of all straight guys who fantasize about men once in a while, I wonder what kind of men they’d fantasize about? My guess would be that most would be like this guy; they’d tend to fantasize about more feminine-looking men.
Yeah, I’m going with those who believe he may want to act on these fantasies eventually (you don’t have to walk down the streets holding hands, dude, you can just fool around), but even if he doesn’t, it sounds like the fantasies are a semi-regular part of his fantasy rotation and, thereby, his sex life. Committing to a lifetime of partnership and sex with someone who would ditch you over a key part of your sex life is not a good plan.
Plus, between all of the women who have their own little bi tendencies and all the women who are turned on by man-on-man action, and then all the many more GGG women who might not be turned on by this but could be accepting, I don’t think his chances are bad.
7/Geni: @6 – Why do you assume she’d be upset by it? In my experience, many women would find that extremely hot.
Many people (about 8 million) live in New York City but those many people are only about 2.6 percent of the U.S. population.
@26 there is a large community online of women into m/m. You won’t see it if you’re a guy looking at porn, because we write instead of making videos, and there are a lot of little cliques, but if you ever want a new look at your favorite TV show, video game, comic book, celebrity, assorted popular bands and novels, or even newscaster … well, I could probably find you gay porn for it. And plenty of original stuff too. Written for women, by women, about guys fucking.
‘course the guy writing the letter probably knows his S.O. better than we do, but asking him why he’s afraid of telling her is a reasonable question.
@6, 21 Quite a few like it. More are merely accepting. Even more are Offended and/or threatened. It really depends on your area and culture how much you’re exposed to it.
I have a feeling LW’s gf may be attracted to the gay or the bi and might have been hurt by many whom have been closet cases and she caught them or they broke up while coming out, etc. Or, maybe she just has expressed her disgust at teh gai. Or, bafflement at bisexuality. She might be a huge prude. Maybe he’s dropped hints and she’s reacted with confusion or revulsion. We don’t know.
In any case, LW is going to be a CPOS…or may operate under a mutual DADT situation. For minimum future damage, he should just come clean, and get permission for occasional indulgences, or else get caught.
27: @26 there is a large community online of women into m/m.
Slasher, I’m not disputing that there’s a “large” community of women into m/m or that “many” women like it. I’m sure that’s true. What I was pointing out @ 26 is that “many” or “large” can still be a small fraction of the whole.
I would be happy to be proven wrong, but it’s my belief that women who are into m/m are a minority among all women, not a majority.
@3: Maybe, but maybe not. I have found myself attracted to guys who pull off femininity very well, and I even french-kissed a hot drag queen in NYC one very very drunken night.
Sadly, though, I’m about as straight as you can be.
There’s at least two separate issues here.
First off, it is unnecessary to share every single mental fantasy with your partner. Sometimes you can be reluctant to share and come to find out when you do that it leads to a whole new level of intimacy. But you might have some fantasies or thoughts that you just want to keep private. That is fine. And you may have some fantasies or thoughts which you know will disturb your partner, in which case–so long as they remain just fantasies or thoughts–the choice to be discreet is the wisest choice.
This leads to the second issue: There is a difference between having a fantasy that he’s pretty sure his gf “would be totally turned off” by, as in she wouldn’t find that fantasy particularly arousing *herself,* but wouldn’t mind if he had it (and didn’t act on it) and having a fantasy the knowledge of which would freak his gf out, feed all her insecurities and turn her into a raving jealous horror show. THAT’s the kind of fantasy he should keep to himself.
His wording wasn’t precise enough to make that distinction.
@32: The 1980s called, they want their perception of sexuality back
@16 is right.
I’m really curious about why DENYTHEBI thinks his girlfriend might be turned off. Many of my past boyfriends would be shocked at the things I’m open to, because I’ve been too shy to discuss it. Sure, I might have had swinging-from-the-chandelier sex with them, but I wasn’t about to let onto my less-vanilla tendencies with someone I was still getting to know.
But I’ve been with my current sweetheart for several years. Until him, I never knew how much I could open up to someone. As we’ve become more emotionally intimate, we have revealed all sorts of secrets. He was pleasantly surprised at how positive and even excited I was by some of his fantasies, his eclectic porn collection, and his wild past.
It wasn’t until this relationship that I realized how much I’d been holding back from previous partners. Some of my past boyfriends were great catches and I thought there was a chance they might be Mr. Right.
But I’m so glad I didn’t settle and have now ended up with someone who is a wonderful partner AND a great sexual fit. So I think that if this really is the right long-term girl for you, DENYTHEBI, then at the very least, she will be GGG about the fact that you look at twink pics. At the very best, she’ll be into the idea of some threesomes! But if she’s super grossed out by your revelation, then she may not be your Ms. Right after all.
seandr, you say these things, but you never, ever post the pictures… 🙁
@6 Here is what he’ll have to gain even if he never acts on it: Eventually she’ll find the porn or enough little hints will accumulate and she’ll freak out and “realize” he’s gay and determine that their relationship was a scam. And at that point, being that he never said anything to her, he will NEVER be able to convince her otherwise.
If you walk in on your supposedly straight boyfriend and he’s jacking it to a dude, then “but honey I only think about this once in a while” will seem like a clear lie. But if had already told you that guys are about 5% of his sexuality blahblahtwinks, then all those little hints and that moment would be reasonable and not some earth shattering relationship destroyer.
@36 – My thoughts exactly. You saved me from writing a long-ass comment.
@35: If I knew so many ladies were turned on by guy-on-guy action, I’d have kissed a hell of a lot more drag queens in front of a hell of a lot more cameras.
@38 Well, now you know. Don’t leave home without your camera…
Count me as yet another woman turned on by guy on guy action…
and another vote for #36.
There is so much to gain from sexual honesty… and so much to lose in the face of a misunderstanding due to lack of communication.
It’s cool to be sexually attracted to the same gender without wanting to date or marry into it. In fact I am pretty much exactly like the LW in this respect. I would never want to enter into a long-term relationship with another woman, but I would certainly like to try licking cunt someday.
If your gf is as GGG as you say, DENYTHEBI, then she shouldn’t have a problem handling this revelation. She may even be into trying threesomes with you–I know I’d give a lot to date a guy that would dive wholeheartedly into a MMF threesome!
If she would have a problem with hearing it, then she’s not really GGG. I mean, you’re not even asking her to indulge you at that point. You’re just being honest with what you’re attracted to.
Regardless, you should not make this decision FOR HER. Either she is into you and what you’re into, or she’s not and you should look for somebody who IS. Best of luck!
Dan only answers this one well cuz he’s answered it over and over and over again.
Dan, DO you get original questions anymore or are you simply picking the simplest ones in last few months because you can slam out the answers in your sleep and you are simply so busy lately that’s what you need to do?
No disrespect intended, but if that is the case, perhaps the at risk youth could help you out with this? Maybe they’re ready for a bit more responsibility? Or, is it possible, that is the problem? You have turned the SLOG and weekly column over to the YAR and just didn’t tell us?
Either way, Dan, you seem distracted lately. Not criticizing, but definitely asking. Thanks.
???
Dump the g/f, DENYTHEBI, and CALL ME.
@41: but I would certainly like to try licking cunt someday.
Best use of the C-word ever. Yum.
@11 et al: I’m a young (ish…27 next week), hairless, twinky-looking guy who is often attracted to mostachioed bears. And as far as I can tell it has nothing to do with daddy issues…I just like chest hair and the implication (though not always the reality) of maturity in those guys. And it has nothing to do with wanting to be subservient or “learn” from the guys either…if anything, I get off on showing them that us young guys can teach THEM a lesson or two…
I’m not so sure DENYTHEBI should tell… I guess it depends how important his attraction to men is to him. As someone that is attracted to masculine men, if I learned my partner also thought about men sometimes, I would look at him from a different perspective — I would see him in a more effeminate light, and that would be a major turn off for me. My intellect would find the new information intriguing, and if we were having a conversation at dinner about it I would be totally supportive and understanding… but when it came time to have sex, I would have lost a lot of my attraction to him. It would have nothing to do with my insecurities… it would be like the time I was dating a guy that I thought was a well-respected, strong, friendly, good-natured, generous guy (I’m trying to describe this masculine persona I thought he exuded), and then I discovered he was so extremely cheap and petty, my image of him was shattered and I was no longer attracted to him. I think if I found out my guy was into guys, I would love him just as much, but I would start to look elsewhere for sexual fulfillment…
Of course, if this is a big part of who he is, and if DENYTHEBI thinks he will one day have to act on his fantasies, that’s another story. But 1) plenty of us have fantasies we never intend to act on, and 2) if a bisexual person is in a monogamous relationship, they have presumably chosen not to engage in sexual activity with members of one of the sexes that they are attracted to… I don’t think all bisexual people need to have sex with people of both sexes to be satisfied
Ya just gotta love all these confused young bi-guys.
Okay… I’m mostly a slut these days, and some of the men I hook up with are middle-aged married bi-guys who (if pushed) will admit to feelings that are VERY similar to the ones described by DENYTHEBI. In other words, they “fantasized” about sex with a certain type of dude but never acted on it because they are mostly het. Fine. But at some point (after the kids are gone, after the wife gains 40 pounds, or after the dog dies, yadayada), they finally sneak off and scratch the itch… and they scratch it a lot.
DENYTHEBI’s best option is to marry a bi, but mostly straight, female who can empathize with his fantasies. In the meantime, he should go ahead and fuck a few twinks from the local college to see if the “real thing” is as good as the thoughts in his head.
Along with the others, if she freaks the fuck out over this, you can do better. A lot of women (myself included) would looove to be with a guy with a touch (or more than a touch) of bi. A guy whose just bi enough to entertain fantasies but not so bi as to actually up and leave you for a guy is probably even more in demand.
In any event you should open up about it because it will be very ugly if she finds out by accident. If you tell her you can decide on your own terms what she finds out. If she finds gay porn on your laptop (and she will, eventually) this which of these thoughts is more probable:
– “Oh wow, looks like my boyfriend/husband has occasional gay fantasies even though he’s mostly straight”
– “OMFG my boyfriend/husband is actually a closeted gay man!”
You know she’s more likely to go for the second option. Tell her, so you can put it in its proper context.
Dan, please do tell us how you were tripped up by a butch dyke.
@ 45 – What you’re describing sounds very much like a daddy issue to me (“I’ll show him I’m no longer a child!”).
At the very least, your comment shows us that when there’s an age difference, age is always part of the equation. And that’s what’s boring about it.
First, it’s like Romeo Void said, “Never say never.”
Second, I’m sure she’d find it more upsetting to find that porn on his computer than for him to tell her that he’s got a fantasy he doesn’t think it likely he’ll act on. (That’s not “never” – just call it “not likely”.)
Why is it always assumed that ALL of one’s sexual interests have to be indulged at some point? The guy says occasional gay porn is enough to satisfy him. Maybe eventually it won’t be enough, but plenty of people have low-priority desires that are never realized and still have a satisfying sex life.
@52, it’s “assumed” because a really high percentage of the people commenting here are gay, and they just can’t imagine why someone who actually has a choice in the matter might choose not to walk down that road. Most straight people don’t seem to have much of a problem with that, however.
i used to have lots of fantasies about girls. then i acted on an opportunity, and it just didn’t feel right. too soft. now i almost never want girls. but i still think they’re pretty and i like to look.
@ 53 That’s because being gay, we’ve heard those stories from an awful lot of people we (or friends of ours) have slept with. They always end the same, with the “straight” guy acting on his fantasies.
Obviously, we don’t know how many straight guys have these fantasies and don’t act on them, but we do know for sure that many, many of them do. Therefore, it’s not an assumption, it’s a deduction based on fact.
Another thing we know for sure: those straight guys who end up walking down that road NEVER, ever tell their straight friends about it. So what YOU are saying is an assumption.
@42 I remember reading that Dan is finishing up a book, and must be super-busy with the IGBP, as well as the killer speaking schedule? My thoughts, anyway.
@49 It’s pretty pathetic that I can answer this, owing to the fact that I basically stopped doing any housework last summer as I read through all of the SL archives…he talked about walking past a fire station, and starting to flirt with one of the young, blond firemen…right up until he realized it was a chick.
@53 Because us straight people are so boring we’re used to denying our fantasies? Sheesh, there are times I wish sexual orientation *were* a choice…
@ 56 No, because of the machismo thing.
I’m talking about straight guys, not straight people. They might admit such fantasies to their gay friends/acquaintances, but they won’t tell their straight friends for fear of being considered gay… much like the LW doesn’t want to confide in his GF, but doesn’t actually mention the reasons why he believe she’ll be freaked out. I have a feeling he’s merely trying to protect himself from disclosure (as in “she might tell everyone they know IF she freaks out, so let’s not take that chance”).
@ 56 And remember: there’s a HUGE difference between denying your fantasies and admitting them to your friends. You’d be surprised at the number of straight-identified men who are curious about homosexual sex – and how many “go down that road” – but are absolutely adamant about remaining straight-identified (does the expression “on the DL” ring a bell?).
CU, you just had your own LOTD (about needing to fantasize about being overpowered by a philandering patriarch you found creepy) where you sort-of implied you were hostile towards your own femininity. So what role are you supposed to have in a hypothetical-relationship with a guy for whom an attraction to the feminine form is so counterintuitive, he couldn’t possibly imagine adopting such a role himself?
I live in a world small enough where my question seems obvious to me.
@30 LOL!
Good points, Ricardo, hadn’t thought of those…that she would tell other people, or god forbid, Facebook…I can see why, for straight guys, who are so socially conditioned to be 100% straight, that those fears might be what keep him from doing more exploring. Sad.
When I read this, I thought “Cue the avalanche of comments from hip urban women who are turned on by bi guys.” Don’t get me wrong, those are some of my favorite women, but I’ve known plenty who are turned off by this, too.
To those who think the writer should hide his bisexuality from his girlfriend: why is it any more defensible to be a closeted bisexual than it is to be a closeted homosexual?
I’m definitely getting a vibe that this is the sort of guy who’ll ‘accidentally’ leave little passive-aggressive hints about his ‘touch of the bi’ where she’ll find them as a way to test the waters. A ‘badly’ cleared browser history, ‘accidentally’ ogling a twinkish guy while she’s in the room, that sort of thing. (“Oh, he’s so feminine, I could have sworn that was a girl!”) Something to get her to initiate the conversation because a) he’s too chicken-shit to do it himself and b) so it’s easier to deny it and tell his friends she made it up if she dumps him.
If he thinks there’s a future with this girl, he’d better tell her soon before resorting to that (but hopefully after it occurs to him that he should make it clear is a fantasy he has and not one he expects her to help with, because some of his word choices make me wonder). Because this sounds like the sort of guy trying to justify to himself that it’s just a passing interest, and if he pulls off the deception he’ll never fetishize it and seek male encounters on Craigslist, and wakka wakka wakka, and we all know where that leads: begging Fox News to help save your political career after a fiasco in a gym locker room.
Letters like this one are both ridiculous and a pretty big turn on.
Hmmm… I’ll point out I’m another one of those who likes bi guys who are comfortable with their sexuality. Major emphasis on the latter — there’s something about a guy like that who no longer buys into the cultural masculine imperative that I adore. Some very few straight men manage this, more (openly) bi men do. (Gay men do this as well, by and large, but unfortunately they don’t play with me 🙂 ).
I don’t think LW is precisely comfortable with it, given his dancing around with the g/f issue. I say tell her, be honest about it, even if you do think you won’t ever act on it. If you think she will react badly to you telling her, then I’m going to point out it will be infinitely worse if she finds out by accident later, and the way you describe things? I’m betting that’s a near certainty Otherwise? Think of the fantasy material you two can work out!
@ 61 That’s because of the lingering belief among straights that masculinity = heterosexuality. Their identity as a man is thorougly linked to their desire for women, so when they diverge slightly from that norm, it becomes a source of neverending confusion for them. Shame.
How about “Real men aren’t ashamed of who they are” as a new definition of masculinity?
@66 — exactly. Straight men who have broken past that belief are pretty rare. I would love to see a new definition of masculinity.
Mike @ 59, I embrace femininity – what ^i!e said @54 applies to me too
@ 67 Rare indeed, but the social climate isn’t exactly conducive to that, and many masculine gay men still won’t come out publicly because they don’t want to be associated with effeminate gays and transvestites, for fear of prejudices… Yes, men in general are fucked up.
When all the masculine gay men come out proudly, we’ll stop hearing stupid comments like “but he can’t be gay, he’s so manly” (which we still do hear a lot), and eventually, straight men will stop making that silly association.
@67 Not as rare as you would think, and as Teh Gay are more and more normative, so is heteronormativity redefined. And the gay-bi-straight seperations are slowly bleeding into one another.
Personally women who are turned on by men who are turned on by men trun me on.
@62 I have to agree with your first point – and I’d like to add that I’m sure women who are turned on by bisexual men are overrepresented int his column.
If DENYTHEBI only needed his gf to be empathetic of his situation, I think things could be easier for him. But liking someone, accepting them, and understanding them is not the same thing as being sexually attracted to them. I love drag queens, but I am not sexually attracted to them.
I don’t know if DENYTHEBI should tell his gf about his same sex attratcion… I think I’d have to know more details about his desires, his gf, their relationship, etc…
@ 70 That’s true within hip, affluent urban populations, but I doubt the same could be said of rural areas or lower-class urban populations. It’s not true in my experience, anyway, even with the internet spreading the good word to all, no matter their location.
Did Larry Craig teach you nothing!?
@70 “Personally women who are turned on by men who are turned on by men trun me on. “
LOL. Need more ppl like you around!
@72 exactly
Boxes. Fucking boxes, that everyone must be put into.
You’re a man? You dig pussy? Into the straight box with you! What’s that? You looked at a cock once? With interest? Get out of that straight box! Into the bi box with you!
Wait, you touched that cock? INTO THE GAY BOX!
It’s like the one-drop rule of human sexuality. The Gay is so all-powerful (or all-corrupting) that just one touch of it makes you too part of The Gay! You have been assimilated!
You can fuck a thousand women a year; suck one cock, and you’re a faggot for life.
It’s all crap. Sexuality is a continuum. Feel free to round up or down. You determine your own identity. Who cares what anyone else thinks?
@ 76 – Apparently, a lot of people care, which is sad. But then again, we probably wouldn’t need Savage Love if it weren’t for them.
@76 – well put. My own is fairly fluid – or perhaps “opportunistic” would be the better term. I move back and forth along the continuum depending on who I’m around.
Weirdly, all the women I know are turned on by bi guys and by watching guys together. I honestly don’t know any women who aren’t turned on by M/M. But I suspect I’ve kind of self-selected for other perverts.
Follow Dan’s advice, or the poor lady-friend will be writing Dan in a few years’ time, freaking out over the porn she found and terrified that her guy is a closet gay and the whole relationship is a sham.
@ 72
I agree, Ricardo, that young and urban is on average more comfortable with non-traditionl socio-sexual views and environments, but I think the trend is universal: I’ve been on construction crews where Brokeback Mountain was a film, not a punch-line.
@ 74, Thanks BEG. Right back at you.
@35 – hilarious @36, exactly. I may not love the idea of my bf being into dudes, but if he is, and he hides it, I’m gonna feel like he lied – which he did, by omission. Lots of fantasies don’t need to be disclosed, though I think you do disclose in a healthy sexual relationship. But parts of your sexuality that aren’t going away, that have big potential impact – I think you gotta tell. And who is he kidding. He wants the cock, just doesn’t WANT to want it so he tells himself it’s just a fantasy that he would NEVER act on. Sure. Tell it to the hundreds of thousands of kinksters paying to get their rocks off with a pro, regularly, secretly and expensively.
And if he thinks she’d announce this to people, he should dump her regardless. If you can’t trust your partner with the down and dirty stuff, you’ve got the wrong guy/gal. A guy I used to date confessed the same thing to me, and turned out to be a jerkoff who probably deserves some hateful crap. But I still wouldn’t tell. Only shitty people out people who’ve trusted them.
@ 80 – Yes, there is progress – I’ve certainly witnessed a lot of it in my lifetime – but I still see an awful lot of married or otherwise straight-identified men looking for “discreet encounters” on the internet (and some of them are young, 30 or less, so they can’t say “in those days, you had no choice”…). And the whole “no homo” thing didn’t start because straight guys are cool with less heteronormative models. So we’ve still got a long way to go.
A trend it most definitely is, but a trend can also be very slow in establishing itself fully, that’s all I’m saying.
@24: your guess is correct.
I guess it does make a difference if its a bi guy or a bi girl, but I am the female equivalent of this guy, have always told partners, and in my 30s finally slept with and dated women. Dating didn’t work out, maybe the wrong women, but the sex was great and I will still always disclose – both ways, after all as much of the lesbian population would be grossed out as the straight men. I say disclose – I might have said that I’d likely never act on it. If he has some hot twink come and chat him up, as happened to me, is he gonna turn sex down?!
@fiftytwoeighty:
What does he gain by coming out to love interests when he knows it will scare most of them off?
That’s easy. The possibility of later finding a girl who thinks bi guys are hot, who would love, love, *love* to watch him ram his dick into some effete smoothboy. And speaking from a position of authority, being married to such a woman is fucking awesome.
“Scare ’em off early” has been a very effective dating methodology for me, before and since marriage. Never, *ever* be afraid to tell people you date about who you really are. It’s the only way to find happiness in relationships.
If she breaks up with you over it, try looking for those women who think bi guys are hot. Maybe start with bi girls.
My now-husband revealed his bi-sexuality to me gradually but early on in our relationship. I think he was inspired by me freely admitting that I was bi. Of course a woman being bi is different than a guy being bi in most of our society. While I’d always talked freely about being bi to guys I dated, my husband was the first guy who ever admitted even a hint of bi-ness. I’ll admit I was thrown in that first conversation. What did this really mean? Would he eventually realize he was really gay? After a while I slowly adjusted and he slowly talked about it more. At first I was totally tolerating it. It did nothing for me, but he liked it. I had some of the same concerns as another poster about actually doing it. Would I see him as not manly. I had similar concerns about our exploration in power games. But somewhere along the way I started getting turned on by all of it. Now it’s m/m contact is something that I actually fantasize about on my own. The irony is we’ve had a couple of real life experiences and hubby is pretty sure now that it’s mainly the fantasy for him, at most he’s a little bi around the tonsils as Dan would say. If I’d stuck with my knee-jerk less than thrilled reaction (which I kept to myself fortunately) or shown how not thrilled I was this would have been something he would have hidden and it would have been this big threatening thing. Honesty and exploration have diffused that ticking time bomb. I say all of that to say my feelings and fears related to bi guys before I was dating someone would have been similar to what the LW describes (not likely to receive it well). I made the choice to be GGG with a guy who seemed really cool and fortunately it worked out really well. The same could happen with the LW if he tells. If she’s really that awesome then she’ll at least give it some time and may find out that she’s kinda turned on by the whole thing.
Like another commenter I had never been totally vanilla but the openness of my current marriage makes anything else I’ve done look straight-laced and boring. We’ve admitted being into things we’ve never told anyone else and for me in some cases I found out I was way into things I’d never even explored with myself before. So take the plunge and tell!
76 – But wouldn’t it be entertaining to force Mr Savage into the Bi box for a short while?