Dan ~ I have been a closet fan for many, many years and am thrilled you are finally receiving the national recognition and respect you deserve. Please note that "Christian" does not automatically mean "Anti-Gay." There are thousands of us Jesus lovers who are working very hard to ensure our LGBT brothers and sisters -- regardless of their faith walk -- have full access their Equality Rights. I am a GSA mentor in Wyoming and I literally wake up every morning wondering what I can do that day to make our LGBTQ youths' lives better and safer. I'm an anti-bullying advocate in the schools and speak out in the community on teen suicide as well. It's devastating that ignorance and cruelty are killing our kids every day. I am driven in my volunteer activism by my faith -- it's the most honest expression of my beliefs and values that I've found.
Thank you for the "It Gets Better" campaign. I weep over every entry and have loved sharing them with the LGBT youth in my life. Bless you!!!
As a member of a Reconciling UMC, which strives to welcome LGTBQ persons, and strives to present a truly Christian welcome to ALL people, I want to second Doxy and Pamela's comments above (@ 198 and 201).
I, too, understand why so many LGBTQ people lump all Christians together as "haters." Heck, as a lesbian living in the South, I am almost daily attempted to do so myself. But I was lucky enough to be raised in a church that espoused love, taught kindness and mercy, and did not twist scripture against anyone. I was blessed, as many are not, being raised in a loving Christian community.
I wish there were another name for Christians like Doxy, Pamela, me, and the many thousands of others who struggle daily to wrest the term "Christian" the anti-gay, anti-woman, purity cult that encompasses so much of what we know as the "religious right." I don't know what term to use, other than to stubbornly remain Christian and loudly proclaim a very different Christianity from what many here sadly see every day.
Thank you, Dan, for your piece, and for all the work you are doing on behalf of the LGBTQ community.
I was lucky enough to be raised in a church that espoused love, taught kindness and mercy, and did not twist scripture against anyone.
Just think how much luckier you would have been NOT to be raised in a church at all, but instead to be taught to value critical thinking, evidence, science, reason, and logic. Scripture is twisted--that's what happens when you have myths written by different people at different times and in different languages collected in one book. It's just unfortunate that so many people are raised to think they have to believe in it.
As a teenage girl from Scandinavia, I have to thank you for your words. I come from a fairly conservative family, and it is now my time to confirm my Christian faith. I have been doubting whether I should, because I find myself doubting God. And Jesus. I havenĀ“t been going to church all that much during my childhood, and IĀ“m sure I have a few misconseptions about Christianity. But all that I know is, that in the Bible, Homosexuality is judged and forbidden. I cannot for my life see why. If the Bible is the word of God, and God forbids gay love, how can I believe in, and worship him?
I preached on this subject this morning and instead of doing so, I should have just read this article and let your words sink in. Great article, thanks candid and thoughtful response.
I think your Liviticite friend needs to get over himself. We need more passionate responses like yours and an acknowledgement that not all - or even most - Christians think this way.
Dingo said, "Faith is the deliberate and willful suspension of critical thinking; the time is long past to stop affording people undeserved respect or deference based on their ridiculous, willfully ignorant superstitions."
Not necessarily true. I'm a Christian, and I believe in evolution and reason. I don't believe that being gay is a sin. I think that queer folk are wonderfully made, just like all people, and that God loves us for who we are regardless of our orientation. I grieve for the Christian children taught to hate and the people whom they hate. I used to be that way myself; my parents are homophobic. But I chose to open my mind and change. It is an awful thing to hate another human being, and it rots your soul from the inside out. I am so angry at my fellows who call themselves "Christian" but whose hate and narrow-mindedness betrays their hypocrisy. I resent them for making everyone think I am hateful and stupid just because I have faith too. I have a master's degree and I love my queer neighbors. I am not like them, and I am SICK of being lumped in with them.
EVERY true Christian realizes that queer folk are made in the image of God and to be honored and respected for the beautiful people that they are.
I feel sorry for those people who can't read the Bible in a sophisticated enough way to realize that science has value and truth too, and that the Bible's condemnation of queers, and women, and slaves, and people of color is a product of the culture in which it was written. God's Word to God's people is love. And anyone who ignores it misses the point of being Christian.
The problem with respecting the beliefs of anyone who promulgates the existence of gods is that it is that very belief that underlies all the other problems. Without the underlying belief in gods, there would be no one making claims about the wishes of those gods, no one claiming āgod hates (interestingly whatever they hate) or god wants you not to masturbate or god says to give me ten percent of your income (perhaps the greatest scam ever). Only people who hold such beliefs will teach their children that god hates gays. People who do not hold those beliefs might also hate gays, but they will have to accept that responsibility themselves and justify it on some other basis, which would be so much harder to do.
The use of metaphors like unicorns and spaghetti monsters is completely appropriate to the discussion. Before anyone has the right to claim that some god wants humans to do any particular thing, and to have that claim enforced by law, they ought to have to prove that said god exists. And not just āexistsā in some kind of ethereal, fantasy realm, not just by avoiding that issue with something like āGod is love,ā or āGod is the āground of all being,āā whatever the hell that means, but flesh and blood exists in the concrete kind of existence we all implicitly understand that we would need to see before we would believe in unicorns or flying pasta.
Interestingly, in a little publicized case in 2006 in Italy, an Atheist who had once studied for the priesthood sued a parish priest to make him prove his claim of the historic existence of Jesus Christ. The judge ordered the priest to appear in court to prove that Jesus Christ existed and the next thing I heard about it was that the case had been āfiled away,ā in spite of the fact that the priest had produced no such evidence. The ultimate cover-up?
So no, I do not respect ignorance in any form and I respect it least when those who promote such ignorance seek to harm my son, justify it with their claims for the wishes of unseen beings and enlist in their crusade those government and civilian entities they conscript to their cause to enforce their ignorance. I remember when I was a kid, my uncleās wife spoke to unseen beings; they put her on lithium, as I recall.
I want to add one more voice to the chorus. I can't say it better than you Dan so I will just send you props. I stopped calling them Christians, now I call them "Christians In Name Only" CINO's to differentiate them from true followers of Christ.
It's hard both to read the letter-writer 1) suggesting that loving the Lord and opposing gay rights are equivalent and 2) admonishing Savage to consider the power of his words. It is not the case that opposing gay rights follow logically from being Christian--I believe quite strongly that the opposite is true. And superficially peaceful language, coming from some of the most powerful organizations in the country, can condone discrimination and even violence against gays.
I am unable to state this any better than you Dan so I'll simply add one more voice to the chorus and send you props. I stopped calling them Christians, and now call them CINO, Christians In Name Only, in order to distiguish them from true follows of Christ, who would never ever say the hurtful things these CINO's say and do.
I'm an elder at my church and gay as a three dollar bill in the offering plate. This morning at church I offered a prayer of thanks for the good work you and your husband are doing with your video project.
Seems like you are implying that "real" Christians are loving, kind, accepting, non-violent and not bigots but, by not calling the haters Christians, you miss their whole point. They do what they do precisely because of their belief in gods, not in spite of it. I'm sure they would look at you and think you are not a "real" Christian because you don't stand up for what they are sure their version of Christ would have wanted. Some preach hate and some preach love, but they all do so in the belief in the existence and divinity of Jesus Christ, and that is the only requirement for being a Christian (look it up in the dictionary if you don't think so). It's just a matter of who is interpreting the wishes of the gods.
#211: You say you believe in "reason," but you also believe in a god, and not only "a" god, but the god of the Bible, and you see no disconnect there. Proves my point, really.
Eloquently written! He's hit the heads of nails I've been driving on Christians for years and years. Christians have a legacy of hate and persecution stretching back to their very beginnings. And "good" Christians could more voiciferously protest their hateful bretheren and sisteren, but as we see, they don't. So they are equally guilty of letting the fires of hate burn as much as the haters who fuel those fires.
As a 48 year old gay man born to Southern Baptist parents, I have never truly believed for even one moment that my parents unconditionally loved me. They were far too worried about what their neighbors at church thought to worry about how their behavior impacted their children.
Hey, y'all militant atheists up in this thread - THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU. Taking the deaths of these children as your cue to rant about the evils of religious faith (spitting in the wind, I'm afraid) is not particularly respectful to those who died.
There are plenty of religious communities out there who are friendly to LGBT folk. The problem isn't faith qua faith. The problem is fundamentalism; the problem is patriarchy. (I'd bet you anything that the bullies in these cases weren't acting out of religious conviction but rather out of a need to protect their position in the hierarchy of perceived manhood. Sissy boys threaten the status quo.)
Since you guys value logic and reason so much; grow up a little and try to think about what you're accomplishing by calling people of faith - the vast majority of human beings, for better or worse - nasty names on the internet. What exactly is it you're trying to accomplish?
Thank you, Dan, for connecting the dots that link these suicides as a result of bullying and humiliation to the hateful religions and hateful politicians who do their bidding.
@225 I'm not an atheist, but I have no problem with the justified anger that atheists feel these days. The fundies are clearly the majority in the assault on homosexual people. As someone who's been assaulted by these people ("bullied" isn't really a strong enough word) I can tell you that I've yet to be assaulted by someone in the name of "You're Ugly & Your Mother Dresses You Funny". When your church, the place you should feel safe & accepted, tells you over & over again that you're not entitled to the same consideration given everyone else you tend to get a bit put out.
What we're trying to accomplish (or at least what I'm trying to accomplish) is to out all the religious bigots for what they are. They are NOT 'people of faith'. They're people of dogma, blind obedience and ignorance. They aren't bright enough to be 'people of faith' because having faith requires a belief in the unknown. They buy into & blindly believe only what their ignorant leaders tell them. Dan has pointed out time after time that the religious people who aren't ignorant bigots need to speak up but they're few & far between. Until they do the major representation we have of so-called "people of faith" are this lot.
As i read all the 200+ comments... I realize why you "gay" folks get bullied so much. YOU are closet bulliers too! Your minds are all demented and quite honestly I hope gay kids don't read these posts because you are feeding them so much hatred that really doesn't exist in the the majority of schools, homes and churches.
The saddness of the rise in teen suicide are due to the families and the lack of support families have now-a-days. I hope non of you have any straight children becuase you will make them feel as unworthy as you claim others make you feel for being gay. Those 4 young sweet kids just needed their families and friends to provide them a safe corner of the world. The blame is on their clueless families for not being a part of their child's lives. There are many gay families out there that are functioning respectfully and peacefully now-a-days and have blended into their personal corners of the world just fine. YOU are all a shame to those gay families that are making it happen.
Dan: you will want to read this: http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2010/10…
One of the kids who killed himself was a Baptist who read the Bible constantly and while he said he was gay said he didn't want to be. Yes, fundamentalism kills. It not only encourages the bullies or gives them support but it also tells gay kids they are worthy of death. So why be surprised when they kill themselves.
@ LR: A well written and succinct letter which expresses your preferences while recognizing that of others.
It is wrong that any group should impose its values over another. The (Christian) Church has for centuries occupied the moral high-ground on many fronts while committing awful atrocities in the name of 'Our Saviour'. We could argue for example that the RC church is ultimately responsible for the current attacks by the Islamists because of the crusades.... (discuss somewhere else please, that's just an example).
However, that doesn't allow the Lesbian and Gay community to rant and be as ignorant. There is the benefit of history and the unprecedented access to information to inform us and put into context the many acts (right and wrong) which are and have been perpetrated against minorities which include the crusades, witch-hunts, genocides and wars.
Can the Lesbian, Gay and other minority groups take the moral high-ground and lead now? Can they be the "saviour" that LR and those like (him or her) so desperately seek?
Our minister is marrying his boyfriend next March in a church ceremony, and I can't wait. Not all churches are bastions of hatred or judgmentalism. Not all people who call themselves Christians use their faith as an excuse to hit others over the head with their oh-so-human prejudices. It's too bad that the ones who do so, tend to be the most vocal among us.
Dan, your reply is amazing. Any Christian worth his or her salt can look past your minor instances of gratuitous namecalling, and see that you're writing with the force of truth.
Where did you get that tape of Matthew Morrison? Did someone bootleg the whole thing? Is it available on torrent? He performed when I saw South Pacific, but by the time they filmed Live at Lincoln Center, he had moved on to Glee.
I am truly boggled (as always) by the assumption of internet atheists I encounter that religion is at the root of all evil human behavior. (Heck, the quote in @41 says it pretty much flat out.) If only we could eliminate religion -- whether all religion or just Christianity is left to the preferences of the reader -- then instantly human beings would become good, kind, rational, scientific, and tolerant.
Do you really think that? Really? Human beings are human being everywhere. The human urges at issue here -- clannishness, the fear of differences, the desire to promote oneself and one's in-group over others, the intense hunger (either physical or intellectual) to be in possession of the greater power and so to ensure victory in any conflict -- are inherent. Religion is an expression, not a cause, of human nature. If any mention of any God, spirits, or afterlife disappeared from human consciousness tomorrow, I feel pretty confident that we'd all still be dicks.
Not even going to touch the assumption that spiritual faith and critical, scientific thought are mutually exclusive, let alone the childish extrapolation that the absence of one will magically generate the presence of the other.
"[T]he assumption of internet atheists I encounter that religion is at the root of all evil human behavior" is a straw man, straight up. No one in here - not even @41 as you claim - has said so. By and large what people actually say is that many religions, especially those of an authoritarian nature, are intrinsically divisive and in most cases explicitly give their adherents permission to mistreat or even physically harm or kill any number of proscribed classes, most typically including unbelievers and women. Because of the social nature of human psychology, this sort of permission is a powerful motivator, and it encourages people's natural, entirely inborn tendency to be dicks, rather than encouraging the equally natural but far more difficult to elicit capacity for compassion and understanding.
I shouldn't be having to tell you this. I shouldn't bother. Your screed makes it clear you've not actually made any attempt to understand anything that "internet atheists" you encounter say, since you prefer to set up your own goofy argument to knock down. Even @41's quote is far more nuanced than you imply.
@175, You really can't leave Jesus out of a discussion of Christianity. That's just... not a reasonable request. Jesus is a symbol. He means whatever his followers want him to mean.
@225, Au contraire. LR's letter was precisely about attempting to exonerate religion from the crimes of what is, in fact, religiously-motivated hate. If that doesn't fall under "the evils of religion," I don't know what does.
James, commenter 233 it is always the case when the tide turns and the opressers start to get what they deserve that they plead for the opressed to be "better than they were" to "take the moral high ground"! These are just ways of trying to make the victims who fight back feel bad! Or to get the victims to NOT give the oppresers what they deserve!
I want Christians to suffer! I want them to feel pain like I have! I want them to suffer and not have anyone stand up for them! I used to be one and the best thing about NOT being one, is that I DON"T have to follow THEIR rules!! I don't belive their lies or their rules, I know their God is a fraud! SO NO, we should NOT be their saviours!
237: if all religion vanished human beings wouldn't all instantly become good, kind, rational, scientific, and tolerant--some people will always be evil, ignorant, intolerant assholes--but an awful lot of intolerance, evil, unkindness, irrationality, and denialism would vanish along with it.
@204 - "Just think how much luckier you would have been NOT to be raised in a church at all, but instead to be taught to value critical thinking, evidence, science, reason, and logic. Scripture is twisted--that's what happens when you have myths written by different people at different times and in different languages collected in one book. It's just unfortunate that so many people are raised to think they have to believe in it."
I was lucky enough to be raised in a church that taught critical thinking, evidence, science, reason and logic! It's not as rare as folks may think, given the tendency to equate all Christian denominations as fundmentalists and literalists. I understand that, as that's the picture of Christianity the media offers us. I am not a scriptural literalist -- there are so many ways to interpret scripture that include critical thinking and analysis. Many Christians would have you believe that one must be a literalist to be a Christian -- I simply disagree with them.
Christian beliefs are cherry-picked from the bible. How can such selectivity from the bible be called a true "belief?" I think they cite the bible, like a lawyer cites a case. They already have the hateful belief, then just use the bible to justify it. They are not following the bible, they are forcing the bible to follow them.
@233
"Can the Lesbian, Gay and other minority groups take the moral high-ground and lead now? Can they be the "saviour" that LR and those like (him or her) so desperately seek?"
Well, yes, in part by calling bullshit when someone says that Christianity holds that it is more important to speak nicely about Christians than it is to work to keep kids from dying.
If you think that "the moral high-ground" means speaking nicely, you need to really, seriously sit down and rethink your priorities. And stay out of grown up discussions until you do.
Dan had to address this writer in writing, so he didn't have the chance to do what I wish he could have, and I suspect he would have done in person - ask whether the writer had bothered to write to any of the people calling all gay people perverts and sinners by definition, and more importantly, to any of the many people speaking out against anti-bullying laws and policies.
Because if L.R. didn't do so, then by definition, L.R. is more concerned about one sex-advice columnist speaking bluntly about Christians than about thousands of kids being bullied and harassed and driven to suicide. In their fucking schools. While nothing is being done by their fucking teachers, and pastors, and in many cases, by their fucking parents.
Adultery was the single biggest sin that Jesus spoke about, taught about, and got worked up about. And yet, when he confronted people who were following what was the current religious and civil law about it, he told them all to shut up and go home and leave the woman alone.
Fighting anti-bullying laws, and tsk-tsking when someone gets outraged about teen suicide is supposed to be a Christian attitude?
Seriously, nobody should even be able to hear Dan Savage's voice over the screams of protest by outraged Christians that children are dying, and nobody should be able to FIND Dan's column because the internet should be swamped by Christians demanding an accounting of their schools and churches and politicians.
Protecting the children is anti-Christian and anti-Conservative?
Honestly, "fuck your feelings" is mild compared to the response this should be getting. From Christians.
243: I was lucky enough to be raised in a church that taught critical thinking, evidence, science, reason and logic! It's not as rare as folks may think . . . I am not a scriptural literalist -- there are so many ways to interpret scripture that include critical thinking and analysis. Many Christians would have you believe that one must be a literalist to be a Christian -- I simply disagree with them.
There can be no real critical, evidence, science-based, reasoned logic in religion because you begin from the unprovable, so unlikely as to be for all practical purposes untrue premise that there is a god, and that HE (not she or it or they) is the god of the Bible. Any interpretation of scripture that holds it has some truth ≠ critical thinking.
I would add that there are plenty of Christians, and Christian churches and Christian clergy who do NOT perpetuate theology or rhetoric dehumanizing to gays, who are trying to do better, who do not countenance the way that the religious right manipulates the faith of Jesus to justify discrimination and emotional (if not physical) violence. I've been to a Baptist church in Georgia which flew a big rainbow flag over the front door. The Lutheran church my roommate and I attend now is openly welcoming of LGBT members. The General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA) just voted to do away with the last of its barriers to gay and lesbian ordained clergy. And my favorite charity here in Manhattan is Sylvia's Place, an emergency shelter for homeless LGBT youth, run by the Metropolitan Community Church.
So no, I don't feel that you have painted all people of faith with one brush--only those who use their faith to justify societal abuse of gay people. Plenty don't, though your critic might not recognize them as "real" Christians or even realize that they exist.
Well put, Lymis. And way to miss the fucking point, James. You want us to be more nuanced when we react to Christians? Sure. Soon as gay kids stop dying, we'll be right with you. Till then, "fuck your feelings".
I base my opinions of the church on 10 years serving as an acolyte and in my local choir. I have travelled the world and have seen what religions are capable of. From the Vatican hoarding the treasures of ages - and we're not just talking about a few old pictures here, to the Jewish state persecuting Arabs to the point of genocide. Have you even got out of your state(s) yet? Maybe, even you have seen news reports where extremists have done something in the name of some or other religion.
Otherwise Yes, you should highlight lies for what they are.
Some posts above have suggested that I neither have feelings for nor support the Gay or Lesbian communities (250 & 245) yet some of my favorite people are both and I count them amongst my friends. Why would I not support them when what they and maybe you seek, is just a little whiff of equality? Or maybe you don't and this is just another opportunity to get your soapboxes out for a little rant.
@240. The point I was trying to make was that the Gay and Lesbian community should lead by example and not follow the well trodden path that other bullies have taken.
@ 250. Gay kids won't stop dying because of religion. There's enough bigots around and they also have difficulties expressing themselves. You want to swear. Go and vent your anger at them and not me. Good luck, you might even make a positive difference to someone one day.
Fuck you. That kid was weak, that's why he killed himself. Nobody murdered him, as much as I think you would have preferred that. Why don't you look at yourselves instead of blaming others for what you think they think about you. Oh, and fuck you again for being a gay douchebag.
I am utterly amazed (but not surprised) at the lack of intelligence and eloquence in most of the posts about this article. I particulary like #16 in which sirkowski tells the letter writer to "kill yourself" I love it when those on the left defend their viewpoints with such immaturity and bile. You people are so blinded by your anger and intolerance that you are missing a major point. L.R. says, "If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preference, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)?" That is absolutely true!!! It seems like no one above (with the exception of 252) can possibly imagine a Christian to be anything less than a bigot. As a man growing up Catholic, I know that people's view of me changes when they find this out. I get comments like, "I'm so sorry", or "oh God!". Someone even had the nerve to ask me if I ever had a priest try and molest me! Yeah, that is really tolerant isnt it?
I saw absolutely nothing wrong with L.R's letter. If those of you who immediately starting spewing out your own hatred against L.R., then maybe you would be able to see where he/she is coming from.
And in case you were wondering I am a gay man myself....
A great column, Dan! You may not be able to persuade that fellow who wrote to you--he probably can't see the harm he does, any more than Christian preachers in the South who supported segregation could. I'm glad you wrote what you wrote. Sometimes strong medicine is needed.--Chip Deffaa
@ 256 "It seems like no one above (with the exception of 252) can possibly imagine a Christian to be anything less than a bigot. "
How about that for putting everyone in the same boat, i.e. accusing people of precisely what you're doing yourself?
You obviously haven't read all the comments. Many people have noted that the problem is that the good, open-minded christians aren't telling the christian bigots to shut up already with their hatred towards anyone that's not like them. But obviously, you didn't want to hear that.
256: you miss the entire point. Nobody has to be tolerant of the faith-based beliefs you choose to hold. You weren't born with them, you're not incapable of changing them, and there's no evidence that they're based in any objective truth. If someone informed you that they believe that all human existence is actually a dream being dreamed by a giant frog sitting on a purple lilypad in a pond of goats' milk, would you feel a need to be "tolerant" of that view? Would you feel a need to listen politely as you were told that, actually, since you don't share that view your fate is to be eaten alive by tadpoles?
Judging people based on the views they hold and expound and how they behave is absolutely valid--it's what people in the real world do every single day. It's YOUR CHOICE to believe--not only totally without evidence, but in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary--in the outrageous lie that crackers and wine transubstantiate into flesh and blood as you eat them. Just as nobody has an obligation to respect the opinions of someone who claims that 2+2=30,000 or that cows have 7 legs, nobody has the obligation to respect the bullshit claims of your religion. Get it now?
I judge religious people based on their complete lack of intelligence. If you truly believe that you have an imaginary friend who created the universe, you are a complete moron. So I judge you on your merit.
@259: Thanks for your condescending rant regarding the Christian/Catholic religions. Do you feel better know that you got that off your chest? (yes, that was condescension, just to be clear)
"Nobody has to be tolerant of the faith-based beliefs you choose to hold."
Really? Now that is just a convenient blanket statement to allow you to be intolerant towards anything religion has to say that you disagree with.
I am not saying that religion does not have its share of bigots, but based on many of the comments above, there is bigotry in every group.
But "Dingo" you did make me realize something. Why are we spending so much time being intolerant (your words) of faith based beliefs in Christianity, why is the left so determined to be tolerant of Islam??? This is a religion that disallows homosexuality and even calls for capital punishment of homosexuals. Gay men and women that live in many Muslim countries live in fear that they will be murdered if they are outed. I would feel 150% more comfortable being in a Catholic church as a gay man then I would be if I were in a mosque. But lets go ahead and let them build that mosque anyway...The Left's views are so convenient and they pick and choose what they want to get enraged by.
@ 256 And I forgot to add (although many have said it earlier in this thread): Consequently, all christians who are not opposing the bigots among them are actually approving of them - and therefore just as guilty by their failure to act according to their supposed beliefs.
If you won't throw the rotten apples out, you eventually become one too. And it's obvious to all those with eyes to see and a brain to think with that there aren't that many non-rotten apples left among religious people.
And for those who wonder about my spelling: I just don't think religions and religious people deserve a capital letter. It would definitely be giving them more importance than they are worthy of.
@ 261 - We are mostly talking about christians because muslims don't have much political influence in Western countries. Obviously, for those with some measure of intelligence, the same applies to all other religions in their own context. Get it now?
The propensity to believe in a religious faith may be as hardwired in the brain as sexual preference is. Scientists are studying that very subject.
What isn't hardwired, though, is DECIDING to call people who believe and/or act differently than you do "evil" or "moronic." All it does, usually, is make the person you're calling names tune out from the rest of your argument. I see this sort of name-calling on both sides of the equation here, and I don't think it furthers the debate any.
@260: Ah, yet another post with name calling...It reminds me of the following Margaret Thatcher quote, "I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left"
And to be clear, I may be a religious person, but I do not take everything in the Bible as gospel. I am a person who believes in faith. There is plenty in the Bible that I just don't believe or accept. But I do believe in a higher power and it is that faith in God that helps me get through this thing called life...and the fact that you would call me a "complete moron" saddens me and makes me feel sorry for you...
@263: Why are we splitting hairs here? So now we are talking about a religion's "political influence". I thought we were talking about intolerance and hatred...if we stick to that criteria, then Islam would definitely apply.
@ "The propensity to believe in a religious faith may be as hardwired in the brain as sexual preference is. Scientists are studying that very subject".
If that is so, how do you explain the fact that there are atheists, and many more every day? How do you explain the fact that at age 11, after reading the bible in full (and laughing my head off), I realized that it was totally incoherent and full of contradictions and downright hateful propaganda, and that any religion based on it had to be a scam? AT THE AGE OF 11. And after 11 years of catholic brainwashing.
What really seems to be hardwired into the brain of many is the propensity to reject their responsabilities in life and decide that some magic sky friend decided everything for them and explained it all already, so they wouldn't have to use their brain or accept the consequences of their actions (ie you can be an evil person, but all will be forgiven if you believe). But that is called "mediocrity", and although you'll find it's rather widespread among human beings, it's nothing to be proud of.
PS to Dan: Thanks for coining "magic sky friend". I'll be forever grateful.
@ 266 - You obviously haven't read neither Dan's answer nor the comments here. This is all about the sociopolitical influence of christians. If you didn't get that, than I'm sorry, but you most probably are what your were called @ 260.
And if you quote Margaret Thatcher, that beacon of respect towards her people and human beings in general, than I'm sorry, but you most probably are what your were called @ 260.
And you are the living proof of what we have been saying about christians.
Personally, I don't think being "polite" to Christianists like L.R. makes any more headway than being blunt. If they don't respond to reason or common sense in everyday life, why would they respond to reason if it's sugar coated? That's why civil rights issues are decided in the courts. It takes too long to bring the entire public up to speed, and a lot of people will never, never change.
As to "intolerance" of religion, the vast amount of atheists and agnostics wouldn't care if people follow a faith one way or the other, as long as the Christianists, etc. would stop trying to insert their crucifixes into public policy. Atheists don't go door to door or stand on street corners preaching to dismantle religion. What they say is in response to the harms done by religion, and especially when those views are threatening to corrupt the separation of church and state.
I am completely done commenting on this website. I foolishly thought that I was having a debate with rational minded people about intolerance and hatred. But I realize now that debating with liberals is like nailing Jell-O to a wall. One post after another is filled with red herring, ad hominem, and straw man fallacies.
#267, some people may be predisposed towards religious faith, and others may not. It's not an all-or-nothing proposition. I have nothing against people who have no religous faith, as long as they don't tell me I'm stupid for following my faith.
I'm someone who actually challenges closed-minded Christians about their beliefs, btw. I count myself as responsible for my own thoughts and actions, and I ask others to examine theirs when I believe that's called for.
My post was not intended to be condescending, nor was it a rant. You asked why people feel justified in being intolerant of religion, and I explained.
What happens in civilized society is we listen to arguments based on facts, and if those arguments and facts are convincing, we may agree with the presenter. Religion is by its very nature excluded from this: the religious, by and large, do not want their faith to be questioned or criticized, and when it is they refer to it as "intolerance." This is not intolerance or bigotry, any more than it is "intolerant" or "bigoted" to question or criticize the claims of quacks that they can AIDS can be cured through dietary changes. YOU ARE NOT OPPRESSED AS A CHRISTIAN, so get the fuck over yourself.
And by the way? YOUR religion calls for death for "homosexuals" (your very revealing choice of words) too. It's really questionable if there's one of Islam and Catholicism is the lesser evil--your church, lest we forget, is responsible for the rapes and beatings of thousands of children on every continent.
So you you're another one who claims not to take everything in the Bible as gospel. That seems to be the constant bleating refrain of the religious apologist, as though that somehow makes it all better. Yet you still have blind "faith" that there is a god, and not just any god, but specifically the god of the Bible, a god who must be worshipped in specific ways (such as by eating his flesh and drinking his blood in ceremonies led by men wearing strange outfits conducted in opulent surroundings), a god who has preordained your every breath. That may not make you a "complete moron," at least not in the medical sense, but it doesn't make you a sensible, rational person either, and it certainly doesn't entitle you to any more respect or deference than anyone else who has silly, superstitious beliefs that fly in the face of all human knowledge.
As a member of the Christian Right, I feel you're being too harsh here... Many of us realize that we are not worthy to judge, and that only God can do so. Therefore, we don't condemn others for their indescretions and deviate behaviour. We know that God will do it on judgement day. I would never encourage my children to bully gays in school and teach tolerance in my household. If one of my children were gay(God forbid! lol) I would understand that teens get easily confused what with the mixed messages via television and music these days, and explain to him how and where he could get councilling and recieve reprogramming and such. and I would pay for it out of his college money we have saved. So please don't judge an entire faith based on the bullying perpetrated of a few lower class white trash hicks, some of still reserve judgement for the lord. Thank you- Claude T. Bagge
As a member of the Christian Right, I feel you're being too harsh here... Many of us realize that we are not worthy to judge, and that only God can do so. Therefore, we don't condemn others for their indescretions and deviate behaviour. We know that God will do it on judgement day. I would never encourage my children to bully gays in school and teach tolerance in my household. If one of my children were gay(God forbid! lol) I would understand that teens get easily confused what with the mixed messages via television and music these days, and explain to him how and where he could get councilling and recieve reprogramming and such. and I would pay for it out of his college money we have saved. So please don't judge an entire faith based on the bullying perpetrated of a few lower class white trash hicks, some of still reserve judgement for the lord. Thank you- Claude T. Bagge
@ As far as I'm concerned, your admission that "some people may be predisposed towards religious faith, and others may not" totally contradicts you earlier statement that "The propensity to believe in a religious faith may be as hardwired in the brain as sexual preference is", which is indeed an "all or nothing proposition", in your own words.
I mean, the capacity for language is hardwired in the brain. Everybody with a relatively functioning brain has it. Everybody. (for example, deaf and dumb people will spontaneously make up a sign language between themselves if none has been taught to them).
If some people do not have the predisposition for faith, while their brain functions just as normally as other people, than it's not hardwired. It's something you CHOOSE. That was my point.
Or, to be fair, something that you develop for some reason or another.
I respect the fact that you may develop it, but as Gal friday said, as long as it doesn't threaten the separation of church and state... and my civil rights.
@ 275 - Merely talking to your potentially gay child about reprogramming and other psychiological torture methods is bullying of the highest order. And it's stripping someone of his/her right to be as "god" created him/her, ie gay.
Furthermore, deciding that gays need to change is a judgment that, from your own admission, is not yours to make.
Religious zealots are un-American. The Constitution is a document that defines individual freedom. I haven't figured out how homosexual people impede anyone's individual freedom. However, the fundamentalist are all about limiting the freedom of others.
āUnfortunately for the Christian hating community, the United States has a population of 85% Christians. The gay community has a tough road ahead of itself to get the rights they deserve.....ā
Youāre not too informed. Guess what? The Christian and gay communities overlap. I think you have confused this forum with an atheist forum. Youād still be uninformed there, but at least on topic.
āThe only scientific argument against homosexuality is it's a process that the continuation of the species due to the inability to create offspring.ā
That is not a scientific argument against homosexuality (or for it). Itās also irrelevant to a species that has artificial means of procreation (not to mention one that is heavily overpopulated).
āThe easiest way to under value and hurt your cause is to incite the group of people that whether you like it or not, you'll have to go through to get your rights from.ā And āDon't make it harder for like minded individuals to get what they really want by lobbing low brow explitive ridden rants on Christianity.ā
Thatās a tired and ridiculous meme. You said you are pro-gay marriage. Does the fact that some here have offended your tender sensibilities changed your mind to anti gay marriage? If not, youāve proved your point is wrong. If so, youāve proved yourself to be amoral.
āChange in social norms is a slow processā
Thatās right. And in every last civil rights challenge anger at the injustices endured has been an absolutely necessary component.
All I see here is Yay for telling a Christian to fuck off. I have news for you; not every Christian in the world thinks that gay people are evil. To say that they do is to hold up a similar stereotype like all gay men are pedophiles. That's not the truth, and how big of a nelly spell would be thrown if someone posted that? As is the increasingly sad situation in the US, there is no middle ground. It's us or them - in this instance the Christians squaring off against gay folk. My grandfather was a minister who taught that all people were "created" equal (I don't buy into the Creationist Theory), and all are deserving of love and respect. This was old school Methodism. He never once condemned anyone from the pulpit, and would have never allowed any church member to do so publicly as a representative of his church, either. So, gay folk and associate hangers-on, stop throwing rocks at an entire group of people when that entire group isn't throwing rocks at you. Take better aim, as you do have legitimate targets, just not every single person who claims a belief in God.
Ricardo, I don't think people's religious faith should be a criterion for making public policy. I pose no threat to others' civil rights, and I vote against politicians who can't make the distinction between private belief and public policy.
Does my supposition that some people may be predisposed NOT to have faith (unless you consider atheism a "faith" of sorts) not make sense to you? I don't know if I'm expressing myself in an unclear manner, or if you're predisposed (heh) to assume I'm not on the side of gay rights.
All I see here is Yay for telling a Christian to fuck off. I have news for you; not every Christian in the world thinks that gay people are evil. To say that they do is to hold up a similar stereotype like all gay men are pedophiles. That's not the truth, and how big of a nelly spell would be thrown if someone posted that? As is the increasingly sad situation in the US, there is no middle ground. It's us or them - in this instance the Christians squaring off against gay folk. My grandfather was a minister who taught that all people were "created" equal (I don't buy into the Creationist Theory), and all are deserving of love and respect. This was old school Methodism. He never once condemned anyone from the pulpit, and would have never allowed any church member to do so publicly as a representative of his church, either. So, gay folk and associate hangers-on, stop throwing rocks at an entire group of people when that entire group isn't throwing rocks at you. Take better aim, as you do have legitimate targets, just not every single person who claims a belief in God.
@281. One thing I don't understand is why someone would even bother to discuss the "scientific" premise of Homo/Heterosexuality. What difference does it make? Since what people do in their bedroom does me no harm, why should we try and justify it? While fundamentalist attempt to control our life as a Orwell-ian society. And that is the true danger.
@264 āThe propensity to believe in a religious faith may be as hardwired in the brain as sexual preference is. Scientists are studying that very subject.ā
Sounds like a ridiculous and wasteful study to me. Link, research title, or some other source info please.
Denialism though, thatās something I believe hardwired into the brain.
I think what's hardwired into the brain is a fear of death.
Religion gives a lot of people a cozy baby blanket to tuck around them, so they don't have to freak out about the unknown (or nonexistent) place they're headed.
I did not say YOU, personally, thought "people's religious faith should be a criterion for making public policy". As far as I can see, you said nothing of the sort. But that's one of the main points touched on by Dan, so also one of the subjects of this discussion.
What I was trying to say is : you have the right to choose any religion, or none at all; I respect that. The problem I, as a gay atheist, have with religions, is that some elements within those religions want to curb other people's rights to fit their beliefs. And what may be worse is that very few elements within those religions are actually trying to stop that, even when it's contrary to their supposed beliefs. So yeah, as a gay atheist, I have a lot of reason to be angry at christians. Don't take it personally: If I lived in Iran, I'd have a lot of reasons to be angry at muslims instead.
But when you say that faith is "hardwired in the brain", unless you specify whose brain it is you are talking about, you are making a blanket statement, one which I and all other atheists prove wrong by our mere existence. If you counter my answer with the notion that there is a "predisposition" for faith in some, but not all human beings, the fact is that you are using contradictory arguments. Which one do you believe in? Are we born to believe in a faith or not? Having something "hardwired" means being condemned to it, not merely predisposed.
Personnally, I don't think I was born NOT to believe, I just figured out for myself that the bible doesn't make any sense and, if god is infallible, it can't have been written by him (since it's incoherent). Therefore, the bible and anything based on it is a creation of mankind, fallible, and I refuse to base my life on what it says, or let people tell me I should. That was just an example of me using logic, and not even deep logic, as I was only 11.
It wasn't the outcome of me having been born with anything hardwired for or against faith. It was just basic logic.
@285 Well if you ever figure it out, let me know! My best guess is that itās all fear based. Fear that homosexuality is communicable, fear of anything differentā¦perhaps even fear of being left out.
Ah, Ricardo, I see where you're coming from now. I didn't write that people's faith is hardwired in their brains. What I was trying to say is that the tendency to believe in a religious faith MAY be hardwired in SOME people's brains. Like I wrote, science is studying whether this is actually the case; no one knows for sure at this point.
I can respect anyone who rejects religious faith for him- or herself (for whatever reason), and allows for the fact that others have the freedom to do otherwise.
We left the church we got married in because the minister who took the place of the guy who married us (and then retired) talked about how gay marriage is wrong during his second sermon--and I let him know that was why we were leaving, too. I don't have much respect for Christians who act like we're not supposed to use our brains to question why things are the way they are, and explore what we can do to right human wrongs.
Re: condemnation of teh gayz, I don't know if it's "hardwiring" or not, but I do think most people have an instinctive desire to feel superior. It's like the pecking order you see in some birds. As long as someone is kept at the bottom of the totem pole, it means these other people are not. So they are invested in demonizing and demoralizing gays so they can feel that they themselves aren't so bad.
Speaking of birds, it might also have something to do with what Kosinski formed his novel "The Painted Bird" around. In the book, a sadist likes to catch birds and paint them with bright colors and designs. Then he lets the bird back into it's flock, and watches the other fowl freak out because they can sense the bird is one of their own, but also very different. So they peck it to death when it keeps trying to mingle with them.
I guess that's about the desire for conformity, and the fear of The Other (?)
Oh, and Ricardo: I'm willing to let go of my end of the rope, as far as the "hardwired" vs. "logic" discussion goes. In the grand scheme of things, it's not that big a deal. Social equality for non-heteros is much more important.
@263 Gee, did we hurt your feelings? AGAIN? Shame on us. Wait, no. Fuck you. The golden rule (and this is supposedly Jesus talking, BTW) is "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Another Bible verse you might enjoy is "by their fruit you will know them". So yeah, the day gay kids stop dying because "Christian" role models no longer condone despicable behaviour by behaving like bigoted douche-wads is the day we start treating you with respect. Treating me as subhuman does not entitle you to respect. In the meantime, I respectfully request that you go fuck yourself.
You know, I don't know if this really matters to anyone, but I just want to say that I'm an average 30 year old straight woman, and I support and vote for gay marriage and equal civic rights. People like me exist. I really want any person in our nation be able to marry and have or adopt children without issue. For me it's that simple, like the Sesame Street of my youth. All people are humans with feelings who deserve to be treated with respect. I know that there are a lot of people like me out there, so have hope folks - the older we get - the more of us will get off our lazy asses and start voting!! I know that erasing the stigma and fear of gay hate is a different kind of challenge, but don't lose hope. Things can change. Things will change. That's what I wanted to say.
Thank you for the "It Gets Better" campaign. I weep over every entry and have loved sharing them with the LGBT youth in my life. Bless you!!!
I, too, understand why so many LGBTQ people lump all Christians together as "haters." Heck, as a lesbian living in the South, I am almost daily attempted to do so myself. But I was lucky enough to be raised in a church that espoused love, taught kindness and mercy, and did not twist scripture against anyone. I was blessed, as many are not, being raised in a loving Christian community.
I wish there were another name for Christians like Doxy, Pamela, me, and the many thousands of others who struggle daily to wrest the term "Christian" the anti-gay, anti-woman, purity cult that encompasses so much of what we know as the "religious right." I don't know what term to use, other than to stubbornly remain Christian and loudly proclaim a very different Christianity from what many here sadly see every day.
Thank you, Dan, for your piece, and for all the work you are doing on behalf of the LGBTQ community.
Just think how much luckier you would have been NOT to be raised in a church at all, but instead to be taught to value critical thinking, evidence, science, reason, and logic. Scripture is twisted--that's what happens when you have myths written by different people at different times and in different languages collected in one book. It's just unfortunate that so many people are raised to think they have to believe in it.
Right on, Sista!
There certainly ARE HomoLiberalEmbracingNurturing"Christian"Churches
out there.
We are the TRUE Christians.
The One True Way.....
not those imposter bigots.
Praize Geezus!
Only members of the
TrueHomoLiberalChurch
will be allowed to worship in
the Qunited States of Gaymerica.
The Taliban think they are right but they are sooo wrong.
It's Us, baby...
Consider this your only notice....
Not necessarily true. I'm a Christian, and I believe in evolution and reason. I don't believe that being gay is a sin. I think that queer folk are wonderfully made, just like all people, and that God loves us for who we are regardless of our orientation. I grieve for the Christian children taught to hate and the people whom they hate. I used to be that way myself; my parents are homophobic. But I chose to open my mind and change. It is an awful thing to hate another human being, and it rots your soul from the inside out. I am so angry at my fellows who call themselves "Christian" but whose hate and narrow-mindedness betrays their hypocrisy. I resent them for making everyone think I am hateful and stupid just because I have faith too. I have a master's degree and I love my queer neighbors. I am not like them, and I am SICK of being lumped in with them.
EVERY true Christian realizes that queer folk are made in the image of God and to be honored and respected for the beautiful people that they are.
I feel sorry for those people who can't read the Bible in a sophisticated enough way to realize that science has value and truth too, and that the Bible's condemnation of queers, and women, and slaves, and people of color is a product of the culture in which it was written. God's Word to God's people is love. And anyone who ignores it misses the point of being Christian.
The problem with respecting the beliefs of anyone who promulgates the existence of gods is that it is that very belief that underlies all the other problems. Without the underlying belief in gods, there would be no one making claims about the wishes of those gods, no one claiming āgod hates (interestingly whatever they hate) or god wants you not to masturbate or god says to give me ten percent of your income (perhaps the greatest scam ever). Only people who hold such beliefs will teach their children that god hates gays. People who do not hold those beliefs might also hate gays, but they will have to accept that responsibility themselves and justify it on some other basis, which would be so much harder to do.
The use of metaphors like unicorns and spaghetti monsters is completely appropriate to the discussion. Before anyone has the right to claim that some god wants humans to do any particular thing, and to have that claim enforced by law, they ought to have to prove that said god exists. And not just āexistsā in some kind of ethereal, fantasy realm, not just by avoiding that issue with something like āGod is love,ā or āGod is the āground of all being,āā whatever the hell that means, but flesh and blood exists in the concrete kind of existence we all implicitly understand that we would need to see before we would believe in unicorns or flying pasta.
Interestingly, in a little publicized case in 2006 in Italy, an Atheist who had once studied for the priesthood sued a parish priest to make him prove his claim of the historic existence of Jesus Christ. The judge ordered the priest to appear in court to prove that Jesus Christ existed and the next thing I heard about it was that the case had been āfiled away,ā in spite of the fact that the priest had produced no such evidence. The ultimate cover-up?
So no, I do not respect ignorance in any form and I respect it least when those who promote such ignorance seek to harm my son, justify it with their claims for the wishes of unseen beings and enlist in their crusade those government and civilian entities they conscript to their cause to enforce their ignorance. I remember when I was a kid, my uncleās wife spoke to unseen beings; they put her on lithium, as I recall.
Thank you.
There are plenty of religious communities out there who are friendly to LGBT folk. The problem isn't faith qua faith. The problem is fundamentalism; the problem is patriarchy. (I'd bet you anything that the bullies in these cases weren't acting out of religious conviction but rather out of a need to protect their position in the hierarchy of perceived manhood. Sissy boys threaten the status quo.)
Since you guys value logic and reason so much; grow up a little and try to think about what you're accomplishing by calling people of faith - the vast majority of human beings, for better or worse - nasty names on the internet. What exactly is it you're trying to accomplish?
What we're trying to accomplish (or at least what I'm trying to accomplish) is to out all the religious bigots for what they are. They are NOT 'people of faith'. They're people of dogma, blind obedience and ignorance. They aren't bright enough to be 'people of faith' because having faith requires a belief in the unknown. They buy into & blindly believe only what their ignorant leaders tell them. Dan has pointed out time after time that the religious people who aren't ignorant bigots need to speak up but they're few & far between. Until they do the major representation we have of so-called "people of faith" are this lot.
The saddness of the rise in teen suicide are due to the families and the lack of support families have now-a-days. I hope non of you have any straight children becuase you will make them feel as unworthy as you claim others make you feel for being gay. Those 4 young sweet kids just needed their families and friends to provide them a safe corner of the world. The blame is on their clueless families for not being a part of their child's lives. There are many gay families out there that are functioning respectfully and peacefully now-a-days and have blended into their personal corners of the world just fine. YOU are all a shame to those gay families that are making it happen.
GET OVER YOURSELVES!
One of the kids who killed himself was a Baptist who read the Bible constantly and while he said he was gay said he didn't want to be. Yes, fundamentalism kills. It not only encourages the bullies or gives them support but it also tells gay kids they are worthy of death. So why be surprised when they kill themselves.
It is wrong that any group should impose its values over another. The (Christian) Church has for centuries occupied the moral high-ground on many fronts while committing awful atrocities in the name of 'Our Saviour'. We could argue for example that the RC church is ultimately responsible for the current attacks by the Islamists because of the crusades.... (discuss somewhere else please, that's just an example).
However, that doesn't allow the Lesbian and Gay community to rant and be as ignorant. There is the benefit of history and the unprecedented access to information to inform us and put into context the many acts (right and wrong) which are and have been perpetrated against minorities which include the crusades, witch-hunts, genocides and wars.
Can the Lesbian, Gay and other minority groups take the moral high-ground and lead now? Can they be the "saviour" that LR and those like (him or her) so desperately seek?
That would be worthy of being a modern parable.
James, Australia.
Dan, your reply is amazing. Any Christian worth his or her salt can look past your minor instances of gratuitous namecalling, and see that you're writing with the force of truth.
Do you really think that? Really? Human beings are human being everywhere. The human urges at issue here -- clannishness, the fear of differences, the desire to promote oneself and one's in-group over others, the intense hunger (either physical or intellectual) to be in possession of the greater power and so to ensure victory in any conflict -- are inherent. Religion is an expression, not a cause, of human nature. If any mention of any God, spirits, or afterlife disappeared from human consciousness tomorrow, I feel pretty confident that we'd all still be dicks.
Not even going to touch the assumption that spiritual faith and critical, scientific thought are mutually exclusive, let alone the childish extrapolation that the absence of one will magically generate the presence of the other.
"[T]he assumption of internet atheists I encounter that religion is at the root of all evil human behavior" is a straw man, straight up. No one in here - not even @41 as you claim - has said so. By and large what people actually say is that many religions, especially those of an authoritarian nature, are intrinsically divisive and in most cases explicitly give their adherents permission to mistreat or even physically harm or kill any number of proscribed classes, most typically including unbelievers and women. Because of the social nature of human psychology, this sort of permission is a powerful motivator, and it encourages people's natural, entirely inborn tendency to be dicks, rather than encouraging the equally natural but far more difficult to elicit capacity for compassion and understanding.
I shouldn't be having to tell you this. I shouldn't bother. Your screed makes it clear you've not actually made any attempt to understand anything that "internet atheists" you encounter say, since you prefer to set up your own goofy argument to knock down. Even @41's quote is far more nuanced than you imply.
Grow up.
@225, Au contraire. LR's letter was precisely about attempting to exonerate religion from the crimes of what is, in fact, religiously-motivated hate. If that doesn't fall under "the evils of religion," I don't know what does.
I want Christians to suffer! I want them to feel pain like I have! I want them to suffer and not have anyone stand up for them! I used to be one and the best thing about NOT being one, is that I DON"T have to follow THEIR rules!! I don't belive their lies or their rules, I know their God is a fraud! SO NO, we should NOT be their saviours!
I was lucky enough to be raised in a church that taught critical thinking, evidence, science, reason and logic! It's not as rare as folks may think, given the tendency to equate all Christian denominations as fundmentalists and literalists. I understand that, as that's the picture of Christianity the media offers us. I am not a scriptural literalist -- there are so many ways to interpret scripture that include critical thinking and analysis. Many Christians would have you believe that one must be a literalist to be a Christian -- I simply disagree with them.
"Can the Lesbian, Gay and other minority groups take the moral high-ground and lead now? Can they be the "saviour" that LR and those like (him or her) so desperately seek?"
Well, yes, in part by calling bullshit when someone says that Christianity holds that it is more important to speak nicely about Christians than it is to work to keep kids from dying.
If you think that "the moral high-ground" means speaking nicely, you need to really, seriously sit down and rethink your priorities. And stay out of grown up discussions until you do.
Dan had to address this writer in writing, so he didn't have the chance to do what I wish he could have, and I suspect he would have done in person - ask whether the writer had bothered to write to any of the people calling all gay people perverts and sinners by definition, and more importantly, to any of the many people speaking out against anti-bullying laws and policies.
Because if L.R. didn't do so, then by definition, L.R. is more concerned about one sex-advice columnist speaking bluntly about Christians than about thousands of kids being bullied and harassed and driven to suicide. In their fucking schools. While nothing is being done by their fucking teachers, and pastors, and in many cases, by their fucking parents.
Adultery was the single biggest sin that Jesus spoke about, taught about, and got worked up about. And yet, when he confronted people who were following what was the current religious and civil law about it, he told them all to shut up and go home and leave the woman alone.
Fighting anti-bullying laws, and tsk-tsking when someone gets outraged about teen suicide is supposed to be a Christian attitude?
Seriously, nobody should even be able to hear Dan Savage's voice over the screams of protest by outraged Christians that children are dying, and nobody should be able to FIND Dan's column because the internet should be swamped by Christians demanding an accounting of their schools and churches and politicians.
Protecting the children is anti-Christian and anti-Conservative?
Honestly, "fuck your feelings" is mild compared to the response this should be getting. From Christians.
There can be no real critical, evidence, science-based, reasoned logic in religion because you begin from the unprovable, so unlikely as to be for all practical purposes untrue premise that there is a god, and that HE (not she or it or they) is the god of the Bible. Any interpretation of scripture that holds it has some truth ≠ critical thinking.
I would add that there are plenty of Christians, and Christian churches and Christian clergy who do NOT perpetuate theology or rhetoric dehumanizing to gays, who are trying to do better, who do not countenance the way that the religious right manipulates the faith of Jesus to justify discrimination and emotional (if not physical) violence. I've been to a Baptist church in Georgia which flew a big rainbow flag over the front door. The Lutheran church my roommate and I attend now is openly welcoming of LGBT members. The General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA) just voted to do away with the last of its barriers to gay and lesbian ordained clergy. And my favorite charity here in Manhattan is Sylvia's Place, an emergency shelter for homeless LGBT youth, run by the Metropolitan Community Church.
So no, I don't feel that you have painted all people of faith with one brush--only those who use their faith to justify societal abuse of gay people. Plenty don't, though your critic might not recognize them as "real" Christians or even realize that they exist.
I base my opinions of the church on 10 years serving as an acolyte and in my local choir. I have travelled the world and have seen what religions are capable of. From the Vatican hoarding the treasures of ages - and we're not just talking about a few old pictures here, to the Jewish state persecuting Arabs to the point of genocide. Have you even got out of your state(s) yet? Maybe, even you have seen news reports where extremists have done something in the name of some or other religion.
Otherwise Yes, you should highlight lies for what they are.
Some posts above have suggested that I neither have feelings for nor support the Gay or Lesbian communities (250 & 245) yet some of my favorite people are both and I count them amongst my friends. Why would I not support them when what they and maybe you seek, is just a little whiff of equality? Or maybe you don't and this is just another opportunity to get your soapboxes out for a little rant.
@240. The point I was trying to make was that the Gay and Lesbian community should lead by example and not follow the well trodden path that other bullies have taken.
@ 250. Gay kids won't stop dying because of religion. There's enough bigots around and they also have difficulties expressing themselves. You want to swear. Go and vent your anger at them and not me. Good luck, you might even make a positive difference to someone one day.
I saw absolutely nothing wrong with L.R's letter. If those of you who immediately starting spewing out your own hatred against L.R., then maybe you would be able to see where he/she is coming from.
And in case you were wondering I am a gay man myself....
How about that for putting everyone in the same boat, i.e. accusing people of precisely what you're doing yourself?
You obviously haven't read all the comments. Many people have noted that the problem is that the good, open-minded christians aren't telling the christian bigots to shut up already with their hatred towards anyone that's not like them. But obviously, you didn't want to hear that.
Judging people based on the views they hold and expound and how they behave is absolutely valid--it's what people in the real world do every single day. It's YOUR CHOICE to believe--not only totally without evidence, but in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary--in the outrageous lie that crackers and wine transubstantiate into flesh and blood as you eat them. Just as nobody has an obligation to respect the opinions of someone who claims that 2+2=30,000 or that cows have 7 legs, nobody has the obligation to respect the bullshit claims of your religion. Get it now?
I judge religious people based on their complete lack of intelligence. If you truly believe that you have an imaginary friend who created the universe, you are a complete moron. So I judge you on your merit.
"Nobody has to be tolerant of the faith-based beliefs you choose to hold."
Really? Now that is just a convenient blanket statement to allow you to be intolerant towards anything religion has to say that you disagree with.
I am not saying that religion does not have its share of bigots, but based on many of the comments above, there is bigotry in every group.
But "Dingo" you did make me realize something. Why are we spending so much time being intolerant (your words) of faith based beliefs in Christianity, why is the left so determined to be tolerant of Islam??? This is a religion that disallows homosexuality and even calls for capital punishment of homosexuals. Gay men and women that live in many Muslim countries live in fear that they will be murdered if they are outed. I would feel 150% more comfortable being in a Catholic church as a gay man then I would be if I were in a mosque. But lets go ahead and let them build that mosque anyway...The Left's views are so convenient and they pick and choose what they want to get enraged by.
If you won't throw the rotten apples out, you eventually become one too. And it's obvious to all those with eyes to see and a brain to think with that there aren't that many non-rotten apples left among religious people.
And for those who wonder about my spelling: I just don't think religions and religious people deserve a capital letter. It would definitely be giving them more importance than they are worthy of.
@ 260 - You made my day.
What isn't hardwired, though, is DECIDING to call people who believe and/or act differently than you do "evil" or "moronic." All it does, usually, is make the person you're calling names tune out from the rest of your argument. I see this sort of name-calling on both sides of the equation here, and I don't think it furthers the debate any.
And to be clear, I may be a religious person, but I do not take everything in the Bible as gospel. I am a person who believes in faith. There is plenty in the Bible that I just don't believe or accept. But I do believe in a higher power and it is that faith in God that helps me get through this thing called life...and the fact that you would call me a "complete moron" saddens me and makes me feel sorry for you...
If that is so, how do you explain the fact that there are atheists, and many more every day? How do you explain the fact that at age 11, after reading the bible in full (and laughing my head off), I realized that it was totally incoherent and full of contradictions and downright hateful propaganda, and that any religion based on it had to be a scam? AT THE AGE OF 11. And after 11 years of catholic brainwashing.
What really seems to be hardwired into the brain of many is the propensity to reject their responsabilities in life and decide that some magic sky friend decided everything for them and explained it all already, so they wouldn't have to use their brain or accept the consequences of their actions (ie you can be an evil person, but all will be forgiven if you believe). But that is called "mediocrity", and although you'll find it's rather widespread among human beings, it's nothing to be proud of.
PS to Dan: Thanks for coining "magic sky friend". I'll be forever grateful.
And if you quote Margaret Thatcher, that beacon of respect towards her people and human beings in general, than I'm sorry, but you most probably are what your were called @ 260.
And you are the living proof of what we have been saying about christians.
As to "intolerance" of religion, the vast amount of atheists and agnostics wouldn't care if people follow a faith one way or the other, as long as the Christianists, etc. would stop trying to insert their crucifixes into public policy. Atheists don't go door to door or stand on street corners preaching to dismantle religion. What they say is in response to the harms done by religion, and especially when those views are threatening to corrupt the separation of church and state.
I'm someone who actually challenges closed-minded Christians about their beliefs, btw. I count myself as responsible for my own thoughts and actions, and I ask others to examine theirs when I believe that's called for.
My post was not intended to be condescending, nor was it a rant. You asked why people feel justified in being intolerant of religion, and I explained.
What happens in civilized society is we listen to arguments based on facts, and if those arguments and facts are convincing, we may agree with the presenter. Religion is by its very nature excluded from this: the religious, by and large, do not want their faith to be questioned or criticized, and when it is they refer to it as "intolerance." This is not intolerance or bigotry, any more than it is "intolerant" or "bigoted" to question or criticize the claims of quacks that they can AIDS can be cured through dietary changes. YOU ARE NOT OPPRESSED AS A CHRISTIAN, so get the fuck over yourself.
And by the way? YOUR religion calls for death for "homosexuals" (your very revealing choice of words) too. It's really questionable if there's one of Islam and Catholicism is the lesser evil--your church, lest we forget, is responsible for the rapes and beatings of thousands of children on every continent.
So you you're another one who claims not to take everything in the Bible as gospel. That seems to be the constant bleating refrain of the religious apologist, as though that somehow makes it all better. Yet you still have blind "faith" that there is a god, and not just any god, but specifically the god of the Bible, a god who must be worshipped in specific ways (such as by eating his flesh and drinking his blood in ceremonies led by men wearing strange outfits conducted in opulent surroundings), a god who has preordained your every breath. That may not make you a "complete moron," at least not in the medical sense, but it doesn't make you a sensible, rational person either, and it certainly doesn't entitle you to any more respect or deference than anyone else who has silly, superstitious beliefs that fly in the face of all human knowledge.
I mean, the capacity for language is hardwired in the brain. Everybody with a relatively functioning brain has it. Everybody. (for example, deaf and dumb people will spontaneously make up a sign language between themselves if none has been taught to them).
If some people do not have the predisposition for faith, while their brain functions just as normally as other people, than it's not hardwired. It's something you CHOOSE. That was my point.
Moron - noun : a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment.
I would put people who "believe without proof" to "lack good judgment". So I think my statement is completely accurate!
I respect the fact that you may develop it, but as Gal friday said, as long as it doesn't threaten the separation of church and state... and my civil rights.
Furthermore, deciding that gays need to change is a judgment that, from your own admission, is not yours to make.
Thank god (lol) I'm not your child.
āUnfortunately for the Christian hating community, the United States has a population of 85% Christians. The gay community has a tough road ahead of itself to get the rights they deserve.....ā
Youāre not too informed. Guess what? The Christian and gay communities overlap. I think you have confused this forum with an atheist forum. Youād still be uninformed there, but at least on topic.
āThe only scientific argument against homosexuality is it's a process that the continuation of the species due to the inability to create offspring.ā
That is not a scientific argument against homosexuality (or for it). Itās also irrelevant to a species that has artificial means of procreation (not to mention one that is heavily overpopulated).
āThe easiest way to under value and hurt your cause is to incite the group of people that whether you like it or not, you'll have to go through to get your rights from.ā And āDon't make it harder for like minded individuals to get what they really want by lobbing low brow explitive ridden rants on Christianity.ā
Thatās a tired and ridiculous meme. You said you are pro-gay marriage. Does the fact that some here have offended your tender sensibilities changed your mind to anti gay marriage? If not, youāve proved your point is wrong. If so, youāve proved yourself to be amoral.
āChange in social norms is a slow processā
Thatās right. And in every last civil rights challenge anger at the injustices endured has been an absolutely necessary component.
Does my supposition that some people may be predisposed NOT to have faith (unless you consider atheism a "faith" of sorts) not make sense to you? I don't know if I'm expressing myself in an unclear manner, or if you're predisposed (heh) to assume I'm not on the side of gay rights.
Sounds like a ridiculous and wasteful study to me. Link, research title, or some other source info please.
Denialism though, thatās something I believe hardwired into the brain.
Religion gives a lot of people a cozy baby blanket to tuck around them, so they don't have to freak out about the unknown (or nonexistent) place they're headed.
I did not say YOU, personally, thought "people's religious faith should be a criterion for making public policy". As far as I can see, you said nothing of the sort. But that's one of the main points touched on by Dan, so also one of the subjects of this discussion.
What I was trying to say is : you have the right to choose any religion, or none at all; I respect that. The problem I, as a gay atheist, have with religions, is that some elements within those religions want to curb other people's rights to fit their beliefs. And what may be worse is that very few elements within those religions are actually trying to stop that, even when it's contrary to their supposed beliefs. So yeah, as a gay atheist, I have a lot of reason to be angry at christians. Don't take it personally: If I lived in Iran, I'd have a lot of reasons to be angry at muslims instead.
But when you say that faith is "hardwired in the brain", unless you specify whose brain it is you are talking about, you are making a blanket statement, one which I and all other atheists prove wrong by our mere existence. If you counter my answer with the notion that there is a "predisposition" for faith in some, but not all human beings, the fact is that you are using contradictory arguments. Which one do you believe in? Are we born to believe in a faith or not? Having something "hardwired" means being condemned to it, not merely predisposed.
Personnally, I don't think I was born NOT to believe, I just figured out for myself that the bible doesn't make any sense and, if god is infallible, it can't have been written by him (since it's incoherent). Therefore, the bible and anything based on it is a creation of mankind, fallible, and I refuse to base my life on what it says, or let people tell me I should. That was just an example of me using logic, and not even deep logic, as I was only 11.
It wasn't the outcome of me having been born with anything hardwired for or against faith. It was just basic logic.
I can respect anyone who rejects religious faith for him- or herself (for whatever reason), and allows for the fact that others have the freedom to do otherwise.
We left the church we got married in because the minister who took the place of the guy who married us (and then retired) talked about how gay marriage is wrong during his second sermon--and I let him know that was why we were leaving, too. I don't have much respect for Christians who act like we're not supposed to use our brains to question why things are the way they are, and explore what we can do to right human wrongs.
Speaking of birds, it might also have something to do with what Kosinski formed his novel "The Painted Bird" around. In the book, a sadist likes to catch birds and paint them with bright colors and designs. Then he lets the bird back into it's flock, and watches the other fowl freak out because they can sense the bird is one of their own, but also very different. So they peck it to death when it keeps trying to mingle with them.
I guess that's about the desire for conformity, and the fear of The Other (?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a841zBss…
And yeah, swearing does make me feel better.