it's okay dan, my aunt always calls me a vejjan.
Oh, I love "vaygun". Adopting that groovier, more relaxed pronunciation is one more defense against the whole overweening-pride problem.
Well, I'm a meat-eater and I wouldn't fuck a vegan. So there.
So PETA endorses Flirty Fishing?
as a vegan I have had sex with partners after their steak dinner..*shrug*
I agree that vegans should fuck meat eaters. I'm happy to fuck vegans all day long. There's no amount of sex that's going to get me to give up meat but I'm happy to fuck a vegan as long as she can shut up about it long enough for me to get off. If she can't? Blowjob time!
@4 - That's Flirty Sea-Kittening.
I've always pronounced the word VAYgun. So shoot me.

Dan, that may well be the gayest thing you've ever said. I mean, damn.
As a vegetarian, I don't really care what other people eat. That being said, I prefer it when my wife brushes her teeth after eating fish before we kiss. It's a pretty simple solution.
When you can't eat meat for health reasons (I'm the only one in my family to still have a gall bladder and I owe it to my vegetarian diet), you begin to notice the smell of meat on people. And when you aren't used to it, it smells AWFUL. And it tastes even worse.

So I date meat-eaters, and I don't make an issue out of it (because that's like hi-jacking a relationship), but I've found most guys are willing to start eating less meat if it means more time with me.
"I've always pronounced the word VAYgun. So shoot me."

So does my grandma. And then she says it sounds foreign. She's funny like that.
I was a vegan for five years, and still avoid land-meat, save the eggs I get from a friend who has chickens.

I can see both sides of this issue. But I would guess that couples who are happiest and have a best chance of a long-term relationship are the ones who have pretty compatible dietary habits.

It's about philosophy. A cookbook is a philosophy book. If two people don't share the same philosophy about how they live, then it comes down to how much of a dealbreaker it is for either of them. Ima guess it's pretty important for most.
Oh good, out of all the reasons not to date somone, add eating meat to that pile. With Darwin factored in, Vegans will be extinct in about 100 years.
Wait, what? Is vegan pronounced with a soft or hard g?
Perhaps Veganism, with its strict, uninterrogated, morally-and-not-impact based practices, attracts assholes in the same way that religious fundamentalism (or any other form of fundamentalism/extremism) does. I know a few vegans who aren't assholes, to be fair, and a lot more who are. I think it serves as a vector for some radical lefties with an extant holier-than-thou attitude. Food activists who are primarily concerned with the social/environmenta impacts of our eating practices don't make pre-determinations excluding animal products or meats just because they're meats. Veganism is not evidence-based; it's a religion (one that views humans as morally-equivalent to all other animals, up to a certain, highly individual line: cockroaches, bedbugs, tapeworms, etc. are all animals after all).
@12 - I'd never heard the term "land meat" before. Thanks. ("Street meat," yes, but I don't think that's the same thing)
@10, we can smell you, too.
A "VAYgun" is a partisan of the 1970s models of Chevy Vega.
God, I hate vegans. I was born with one of those life-threatening disorders that is only fixable with a complicated and difficult diet. Every meal is potentially poison. Growing up with that, I have zero time for these people and their childish fundamentalism about food.

Would I date one, when I was single? Hmm, I bet there's not a restaurant in this town we could share ...
@15, while some people my base their vegan diet on things other than evidence, it is certainly not a religion. For some, it may assuage some guilt, but for most, it is clearly based on evidence. Simply put, eating lower on the food chain is less demanding on the environment.
@3: Me too.

From now on, whenever I bite into a burger, I shall refer to it as "dining on flesh". Tickles my predator instinct, I guess.
@15 every vegan is different. I know several vegans, some of whom will make comments if you order a milkshake, others who don't even seem to notice if you're eating a double bacon cheeseburger. I have a friend who is so vegan that she won't eat honey (HONEY?? SERIOUSLY?) but is an incredibly nice person. I've eaten plenty of meat around her without her seeming to care at all. she knows that we all have different things we care about, so even though she's dedicated to what I think is a weird cause, it doesn't affect her ability to be a non-judgmental person.
That's interesting. I'm a meat eater and I refuse to sleep with vegans because of the smells and tastes of their body fluids.
@24, gross.

Well spake, John. My favorite line from the story is

"they see meat eaters' bodies as being composed of the lives of others;"

because vegetables and fruit play no role in the food web, I guess.

You're bang-on correct; it's so religious it squeaks. In the Vegan Eden, apparently, the serpent was handing out hot dogs instead of fruit and by abjuring carnivory one can recapture some kind of pre-lapsarian state of grace.
I'm a vegetarian, but I've never noticed offensive 'smells' or 'tastes' with meat eaters I've dated.

But maybe it's because I still love meat. Just don't like murder.
I eat less meat b/c I think it's healthier (and it's also fewer calories). Plus which I'm not real sold on how meat is processed (additives, the sanitation of the packaging process & so on), so I prefer to cook my own meat -- which tends to be a pain, so that naturally reduces my meat intake as well. Plus given how salmonella and E Coli outbreaks affect vegetables as well (spinach recalls, anyone), I like my veggies local or self grown as well.

But I don't care about what anyone else eats, and if a double stacked doubled fried hamburger were healthy for me, I'd chow it down without a qualm. I wonder how much some of these vegans actually know about ecology and recycling.

Fact of the matter is we're all eventually composed of the same star-stuff, so WTF?
Why peoples gots to be so black-and-white about it? Widespread adoption of a LOW-meat diet (as opposed to non-meat) would have beneficial consequences for both people's health and the fate of this meaty globe we live on. Jeez - we really can have our cake and eat it too. A meat cake.

@26 - I love "abjuring carnivory." Here's to all them fancy words and the usin' of 'em in the sentences and whatnot. Gotta dust off my thesaurus one of these days.
@14 holy mackerel! "Vayjhan's vazhïn texture like tofurkey sleeve of wizard".
@29: Amen. This world could do with a few more pragmatists. I guess that's why vegetarians are generally really cool people, while vegans are usually insufferable. A little desire to improve the world is a good thing, unless you take it too far.
@7: vegans everywhere will sleep soundly tonight knowing that.
Does anyone else see herds of animals grazing (sheep, cows, bison, elk, etc.) and think "YUMMY" like I do? Snorkeling also makes me hungry. Friends think I'm disturbed. I think of it as connecting my food to its source.
I don't take vegans seriously unless they refuse to kill spiders and insects, too.

I'm a proud carnivore who would never date a hardcore vegan, for the same reason I would never date a jew who insisted on keeping kosher. Two sets of utensils? Ridiculous. Soap and water are the foundation of modern sanitation. They should be good enough for your spatulas and spoons, too.
Wheat is murder!
Why is it that meat eaters feel the need to hate on vegans and vegetarians claiming that it is the other way around? I know there are some annoying vegans out there, I get that. But I seldom have a conversation about being vegetarian without a meat eater going ballistic about vegetarianism or veganism. I don't hate on meat eating. What gives?
some people, like myself, choose to eat vegan because it is amazingly healthy and good for my body. I will outlive you haters with a better quality of life and a sexier body.

Maybe vegans don't like to get with meat eaters because they tend to be fatter and more defensive, such as yourselves.

Finally, vegan cum tastes much sweeter. It's a fun bonus.
As a long time vegan, I think that most vegans that give other people shit about their eating habits and lifestyles are probably short time vegans. Most will either mellow with age or go back to being omnivores. When I was younger I was definitely more of a militant vegan.

The only time I ever throw out the vegan propaganda is when a self-righteous omnivore starts judging how I eat.

@20- Sorry to hear that you have allergies- however, unless you only eat meat, eggs and dairy, you could probably date a vegan.
I'm a vegetarian with a boyfriend who eats meat. I like him to brush his teeth before we kiss, but that's the case even when he hasn't eaten meat--he likes a lot of garlic and onions. So it's not because he tastes like meat.

Can't bring myself to cook it for him, though. So I take him out to eat when he wants meat, which is actually not that frequent... Which is probably good for my wallet.
@37. Check your science carefully. Your longterm health is at stake here. Be aware that most independent studies are mixed (not the ones on vegan advocacy sites), and veganism can be very unhealthy indeed if your particualar make-up isn't up to it.

I have a close friend who was veggie from 13, then vegan at 18. At 28 she was in really poor shape with horrible bone loss due to no calcium absorption. Her doctor eventually persuaded her to start eating chicken. She's much better now, but still has permanent joint pain and multiple root canals.
People should be able to not-eat what they don't want to eat, and not-fuck whom they don't want to fuck.

Most meat-eating Americans would freak out at the idea of eating dog or horse. Many vegetarians are inconsistent with their ethical applications of restrictions (pescatarians, chicken-eating "vegetarians", etc). And vegans still use fossil fuels, which are partly composed of dead animals, and they consume food that often wasn't produced in conditions that respect human rights.

If someone's belief system bugs you, don't eat with them and don't fuck them. Simple.
If you don't smoke, you're much more sensitive to the latent smell of cigarettes. If you don't drink, you can smell alcohol on someone's breath more easily. I'm sure the same is true of animal products...and smell is really important for sexual attraction. If you find the smell of meat aversive, not wanting to fuck someone who smells like meat makes plenty of sense ot me.

I have some really good friends who are vegetarians and vegans. I love them dearly but I don't think I could be in a LTR with any of them...I enjoy cooking and eating too much to be with someone whose diet was that restrictive. I imagine that goes both ways.
Wait wait wait...I also have anecdotal evidence that disproves your anecdotal evidence because my anecdotes have a subjectively higher extrinsic value!

Also, here are some studies where a flaw can be pointed out in support of either side.

Therefore, I win.

@35 - Wheat is whurder.

@38: Hehe thanks! You're probably right about the short timers, at least in my anecdotal (@43) experience.

My problem is wheat gluten. The tiniest little bit of it snuck in somewhere is very bad for me. And it's the cornerstone of vegan cusine, as far as I can tell, as well as being in soy sauce. I'm pretty safe with thai food and steak houses.
So... don't have sex with people you think smell bad? That seems reasonable.
@36- I have the same problem. I used to try to mention it as casually as possible to avoid being ranted at, but it never worked. Now I just bring it up quickly to get it over with. At least I find out right away if a person is going to be an unbelievable ass about it.

As far as the smell thing goes, I notice it only on people who eat a LOT of red meat.
@36 yeah wtf. when I was a vegetarian, meat eaters would constantly harass me about not eating meat. Even though I never harassed them, ever, about eating it.
Ease up on your vegan bashing, omnivores. Not all of us are militant and judgmental. Some of us view veganism as a personal choice, and therefore respect your right to make your own choice as well.

And if you refuse to date a vegan simply because they're a vegan, then that's your loss. But pull your head out of your ass and realize that our decision has nothing to do with you.
@40 thank you for your feigned concern, but make no mistake about it: eating vegan is healthy. your singular anecdote does not sweepingly disprove decades of scientific consensus (that eating a more fruits/vegetables/nuts/oils/ etc. improves and maintains our health and reduces risks for scores of diseases and cancers)

This isn't really, genuinely related to that Lovecast call. That woman was just fucking psycho. She just happened to be psycho about veganism.

That is not a commentary on any eating habits, one way or another. She was just a controlling, magical-thinking essentialist psycho.
I get that too and I'm not even completely vegetarian. I mention, once, neutrally, in response to a question, that I only eat meat maybe once a month because I'll only eat it if I can source it and I'm sure it's humane and naturally raised - my choice, my money, all that business - and certain people start giving me shit. It's like they're so sure I'm about to judge them they want to get the drop on me. Fucking Bush-doctrine conversation tactics.

"eating a more fruits/vegetables/nuts/oils/ etc." and veganism are not the same thing.
NOBODY, much less PETA, can ever stop me from consuming animal products.

I especially love to eat Tuna. Oh yeah.
@33: Definitely. I have a tendency to occasionally view unintelligent herbivores as prey. I don't try to eat them, of course, but my brain labels them as prey.
My (ex) friend forced her mother and father to kosher their kitchen before she would come and stay with them. They had to do parts of it with a blowtorch.

A blowtorch.

When you get that crazy about food, you have a problem. It doesn't matter what form your crazy takes, it's just not cool. If you're a vegan who can't stop ranting at people about it, then you're just as obnoxious as the meat-eaters who pester vegetarians about what they eat.

My own personal problem with vegetarianism is that every time I've tried it, it leads to me eating nothing but processed starch (mmm....a bagel/pringle sandwich...) due to my own extreme laziness. Sad.
As a long time vegetarian, I'm always amazed at the defensive reactions I get when someone finds out that I don't eat meat. (I never volunteer the info, and I've never tried to convince someone to change their diet).
I equate this 'mm meat delicious, vegans suck!' response to a homophobic attitude of a closeted homosexual. There must be some sort of moral/ethical conflict going on to inspire such a strong reaction. Perhaps you have some empathy for the animals you eat buried in there somewhere and you've spent some time justifying your diet?
I don't really care if people are vegans and I don't pester them about their diet, and honestly, I've never had a vegan criticize what I eat.

However, the only annoying thing I've noticed about them (not all of them, just some that I know) is that they feel it's necessary to describe how all their food is meat-alternative, and how healthy they feel now, and how "isn't it amazing that vegan [whatever] dish you're eating doesn't have any meat? And you can't taste the difference, can you? Right? Right??"

It's like they have to validate and justify their veganism for no particular reason. That's the only annoying thing I've noticed. When it happens, I typically just walk away.

Mostly I just agree with @29. Moderation is good.
@ 57, those ones probably won't be vegetarian or vegan for very long. They’re probably just trying to find that balance others have referred to. I quit eating meat as a kid because I didn't like it. Why people become vegetarians in pursuit of food that tastes like meat is beyond me, unless it’s for some type of health reason. If someone wants to eat a hotdog, then they should eat a hotdog. Food that is meant to taste like meat products is icky to me – though not as icky as real meat. But whatever lifts one’s luggage, I suppose.
The amount of comments in this thread that seem to come from 8 year old boys or socially awkward adults is astounding.

If you don't understand why people would choose to be vegan, you haven't tried, and are thus ignorant. If you understand the reasons someone might be vegan and still need to make fun of them, you are probably insecure (maybe of your ignorance). If you wouldn't date a vegan or are really unfamiliar enough with the human race to think a vegan in a relationship would be any less smooth about their preferences or beliefs when considering them under the umbrella of a relationship, you are a fool. Pick your king and then try and grow up. Your soft dicks at 40 might thank you.
The amount of comments in this thread that seem to come from 8 year old boys or socially awkward adults is astounding.

If you don't understand why people would choose to be vegan, you haven't tried, and are thus ignorant. If you understand the reasons someone might be vegan and still need to make fun of them, you are probably insecure (maybe of your ignorance). If you wouldn't date a vegan or are really unfamiliar enough with the human race to think a vegan in a relationship would be any less smooth about their preferences or beliefs when considering them under the umbrella of a relationship, you are a fool. Pick your king and then try and grow up. Your soft dicks at 40 might thank you.
The only vegan I ever slept with tasted like hamburger. No joke. I have no idea if this is common or just this particular case- but there you have it. I have not had sex with another vegan since (and I actually managed to convert HIM to eat dairy and meat again, mwahaha. . . ) but yeah- it wasn't a pleasant experience. So yeah - I think it's somewhat silly of vegans to presume THEY'D be the ones put off by the biological byproducts of one's diet. I think it has far more to do with the individual.
@60 no offense- but your little tirade there is a pretty good example of why vegans are so often mocked by people who do not subscribe to the lifestyle. You came off as haughty, insufferable, and elitist right there. I respect the dedication to healthy living, just don't get so strung up about it and condescending in your replies. It's not much more mature than the "childish" comments you are chastising.
@37 Yeah, but can you swallow it? Semen is an animal byproduct after all!
i'm a meat eater and i don't sleep with vegans because they are uptight and boring in bed.

Eat how you want. Eat what makes you feel healthy. I eat a low meat diet, because I eat a low shit-thats-bad-for-you diet. Hamburgers are high on shit that is bad for you. Deciding to eat healthier usually means cutting down on meat.
That said, I still salivate when I see sheep and goats and cows and bison and tasty rabbits. I'd hunt my meat if I could. Gamey meat is deluxuous. Who wants to become an eat only what you kill yourself-ivist with me?
as far as I know, a "vaygun" is someone from Vegas, and a "veegun" is a strict vegetarian. Though the pronunciation is somewhat varied.

Also people who fail to see how childish going "YOM YOM MEEEAT" when the subject of non-meat based diets come up have little standing to call people who point the childishness out as "haughty". That reaction is just as pretentious as saying "I'm better than you because my soul is made of veggie puree".

Also you're just jealous I ate all my peas and can have dessert now :P
Vegans who wonder why meat eaters go off on them when they bring up their veganism, just look at the self-righteous prick @59/60. This better-than-thou, you-are-ruining-your-health preachiness is the obnoxious crap that comes out of most of them. Not all of them, of course.

There are non-obnoxious born-again Christians out there, too - who don't take every opportunity to tell you how great their life is now that they found Jesus and how empty yours is because you haven't - but man are they few and far between.

Passive-aggressive much?
The only difficult vegans I've come across are the teenage ones that would show up with my kids at dinner time and then stand around not being able to eat anything that I was cooking.
Wow... 69 comments and I'm the first to say I'd rather hear Annie Potts' comments on ghosts (and the related busting) than stupid vegan shit.
@66: I'd take that a step further, and insist that hunting be done without firearms. Use knives and arrows and blowguns, things that require some exertion to use.
I kissed a vegan once. He tasted very strongly of garlic. I thought I might pass out before the kiss ended.
Groups of environmentalist radicals have politicized questions of the morality of the dinner-plate; it is supposed that vegans, if not also vegetarians, typically support the attention-whoring behaviors of such groups. Whether or not all vegans are card-carrying members of PETA, they are perceived to be that way. People are very sensitive when it comes to matters of personal habit: fucking, drinking, smoking, eating, praying, thinking; people resent being talked down to as parent to child in general--but especially on these matters. PETA is apparently counseling various people on matters of eating and thinking, but also now fucking. They are very good at creating hatred and divisions between otherwise amicable people.
I'm vegan, have been for a long damn time and don't give a shit about what PETA says. Many vegans don't like PETA for their polarizing, sometimes hypocritical tactics and rhetoric. Which is why I hate posts like this, usually via Dan Savage. PETA doesn't speak for all of us vegetarians in the same way the NRA doesn't speak for all gun owners. So often these posts about vegan this, vegan that, at SLOG seem to set up a polarizing debate making vegans out to be the ultimate snobs. thanks.
A vegan not kissing or screwing a non-vegan would be kind of like a homophobic guy refusing to bang a girl because she recently had sex with another guy (ew some other dude's junk was just there!). Ahem, SILLY and not worth the hangup, not even worth a freakin' discussion, of all things going on out there
@75 good point, PETA does totally suck. They're worse than a joke, what with the whole holocaust campaign and the terrorism support and the hypocrisy and all. I mean, vegans are rad and factory farming is totally evil but let's not forget that we are animals, animals eat other animals, meat eating isn't as intrinsically crazy as all that and we're not gonna like start issuing animals citizenship ID cards and tophats or anything.
@65 haha
@7: I think you won the thread.

@67: I would just like to point out that Vegan pronounced "vaygun" and capitalized can also mean someone from the star Vega, one of the brightest stars in the sky. This is possibly also where all those strange people who don't eat animal products come from.

I have no problem making fun of people who don't eat meat. I think it's a stupid decision. Sure, people can eat what they want, and I can ridicule them for cutting out an entire food group that almost every culture, everywhere on the planet, has made use of in rich, complex, and delicious ways. Meat is a huge part of life, like sex, or reading, and I'd ridicule someone who gave up those things as well.
Well, this thread is a clear example that there are good and obnoxious persons on both sides. Vegans with the holier-than-thou, you-despicable-meat-eater attitude? Check. Anti-vegans with a how-could-you-ever-give-up-meat-you-stupid-piece-of-it attitude? Check.

Frankly, eat whatever you want. If you think it's better for you to live on locusts and honey, be my guest. If you like to eat cheesburgers, buckets of popcorn and coca-cola, great. If you adhere to a strict vegan diet, wonderful! If you're a proud omnivore, more power to you! I do give you the advice of trying to be aware of the consequence of your choices (cheesburger-eaters: careful with obesity and cholesterol! vegan activists: pay attention to all your nutritious needs so as not to end up like nr. 40's friend: eliminating meat doesn't solve everything...)

But if you do take care of yourself and have no health problems, then more power to you, no matter what you eat! And I'll decide whether or not I'll date you depending on a whole lot of imponderables that will play a role if we ever meet -- probably also including dietary habits, but certainly a lot of other more important things.

Variety is the spice of life.
@64: You've just been sleeping with the wrong vegans. Trust me.
In defense of @59/60, (s)he is just pointing out--I think--the insanely low level of discourse here. There are many legitimate reasons to adopt a vegan diet: philosophical, environmental, political, medical, etc. If you don't find them personally compelling, that's alright, don't subscribe to a vegan diet. I have yet to see a single goddamn vegan telling anyone else to be vegan; instead, I've seen a few vegans say why they chose to be vegan: health, didn't like the taste of meat, etc.

For the record, the American Dietetic Ass'n (yes, that group of far-left terr'rist whackjobs) says that "appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes." (…)

This is the equivalent of what every "holier-than-thou" vegan or vegetarian has the temerity to say in this comment thread: namely, that vegan diets are healthy and studies suggest you'll have better health outcomes. If that's holier-than-thou, then go ahead and shit all over the ADA and their fancy degrees, telling you what science says is true.
@72 done!
bow hunting has always been a thing I've wanted to do. I'd much prefer my meat to be ethical, if at all possible. The second my student loans are paid off its all free range all the way.
Every time I finish a meaty bacon cheese burger or some foie gras and camembert and feel the urge to shit it out, I try to stop by Plum, Squid and Ink or Highline on the Hill and take a massive shit in their bowls and leave without flushing.....hopefully with some spray all over the sides.

Just saying.
I took a sophomore level biology class about a million years ago when I was a sophomore.... the professor was an ecologist that made the point that many people are interested in saving kitties and puppies and bambies and seals and other mammals that remind them of themselves (or human infants) but don't as often become tearful at the thought of losing baby jellyfish or baby arthropods OR PLANTS because they can't 'relate' to them in the same way... who says vegetarianism is KINDER? I'm sure lettuce and broccoli want to live, too! And Im not sure that using a combine is a nice way to prevent plant suffering... so what is the answer? I don't know... but stop being so animal-centric in your views, you darn vegans!
Whether or not you are a vegan or an omnivore just lighten up. They are both merely dietary choices. Refusal to eat tofu or foie gras ain't no big deal and to judge someone based on what they eat or don't eat makes you pretty shallow.

Everybody I've ever slept with would die laughing at that comment. :p


I think we might do well to remember that the majority of people are crazy and/or assholes (women skewing "crazy", men skewing "asshole"), and that cuts across all dietary preferences.

Me = vegan, boyfriend = not, and it's FINE, because we both keep any crazy/asshole tendencies in check. Try it, friends! You might like it! :D
Meat eating or vegetarian or vegan, all are fine.
But there ARE limits to the "judging someone based on what they eat or don't eat makes you shallow" attitude. There's a guy up there in comments who loves tuna. What if he likes to eat bluefin? It is endangered. Chances are people like him are contributing to the depletion of other species too. What if someone else reeeeeaaallly likes to eat whooping crane? They are endangered. I'd judge such a person, I'd judge them poorly, for what they eat.

Ok well, that's an easy line to see in the sand, you say, and to not cross. I dunno about that. What if someone likes to eat dog? Should we eat 4-year-old, crippled racehorses? What if someone likes to eat factory farmed pig? They are raised in such crazy, confined conditions that one little slip-up with pesky ventilation systems can suffocate 900 in one shot. Should we really support such an industry? If someone truly believes in preventing such suffering, is it so wrong to perhaps influence a few people around them?
Where does one start or stop judging? I haven't ever truly tried to influence the diets of others, but this thread is actually making me WANT to.
@86 yes there are exceptions to my statement "judging someone based on what they eat or don't eat makes you shallow." In regard to dogs there are cultures were some people have dog meat on the menu and as a dog lover I find that rather appalling, but I would not lay a trip on a person from such a culture. Hindu's are appalled that we eat cows. To each our own.

I have run into annoying omnivores as well as judgmental vegans, but for the most part both can get along and attend pot lucks or dinner parties together and simply eating the food of their choice while refraining from trying to convert anyone to their dietary preferences. It gets annoying if someone bores us with the details of chicken production and compares chickens to victims of the Holocaust. One vegan told me that his intent was to make meat eaters uncomfortable including at social events. He no longer gets many invitations.
Pro tip for fellow vegetarians/vegans:

When you out yourself as a veg and want to avoid the questions/badgering/berating which usually follows, state that *it is for health reasons*

It is not socially appropriate for people to ask about somebody's health issues, so the topic is usually dropped. When the alternative is having all meat eaters project their defensiveness on you, the choice is clear. It's funny how they think we are the ones who preach to them when really it is always the other way around.

So say it's for health reasons. This will diffuse the affront to their ego and help avoid "the talk"

Seriously, it works.
@86: I would love to eat an endangered species. Might as well taste them before they're all gone! And I routinely eat what I assume is factory farmed pig. (I'm assuming most commercial pork is.) I value humans and human pleasures infinitely more than other animals and I don't think ethics applies to non-humans.

I'm also not understanding the problem with dog or racehorse, though I can't imagine they would taste very good. Feel free to judge me poorly.
Oh, and one reason why meat eaters dislike and are offended by vegans: they put animals ahead of humans. Values are a human invention and they're defined in terms of humans getting pleasure, and it bothers me when someone says getting pleasure from animal flesh is wrong because of animal suffering. Just like it would bother me if someone cared more about rocks than human pleasure. This is also why environmentalists are so annoying: who cares about the planet; I care about humans!

Granted, humans are part of the planet, and so I have more sympathy for arguments that focus on the long-term effects to human life. But someone caring more about animal suffering than human pleasure is just insane.
#88 -- good advice, I'll try it. I almost never bring up my veganism, but if asked I will respond. It's remarkable how many omnivores will ask me, and then challenge me about it, tell me how I'm crazy or killing myself or living an unnatural lifestyle or whatever. It isn't a daily occurrence, but it's happened many times. So it is ironic to read these comments on how vegans are preachy assholes. It's a fictional stereotype invented by defensive omnivores.
Mudede, meet BlackRose!
@93: I was afraid someone would say that... ok, I was being deliberately inflammatory with the endangered species comment, but that's a reaction to vegans being all pious, and I would indeed try one if I could. For real, I care about humans, not animals. Animals don't have rights. I care about humans suffering; I don't care about animals suffering. It's really not that bizarre of a position.
@90, animal suffering should not take a back seat to human pleasure. pleasure. your word. that's not saying i/we/they care more about animal suffering than human suffering. you do not "suffer" from the lack of a fur coat, certainly not to the degree that the animals suffer so that you can have one.

you don't have to be a fanatic to believe that causing animals to suffer for your own pleasure is wrong.
@94 - false equivalency. Caring about animal suffering and animal welfare does not mean one necessarily cares less for human suffering or human welfare. It's not a zero-sum game.

And for the record: I honestly do not give a shit what other people do or do not eat. What a bizarre thing to get your panties in a twist over. For myself, I only eat mammals if I know how they were reared, which basically means I only eat the lambs that were hand-reared by my vet-school stepson. But that is MY choice. Everyone makes their own.
Just another day at the top of the food chain. . . .

Are you Mudede in disguise? Because that is a whole lot of stupid masquerading as a philosophical argument.

I guess I'll just say that I don't think you can make 1:1, pleasure:suffering comparisons.
Surely when you pronounce it 'VAY-gun', you're referring to a native of the planet Vega?

What, no Star Trekkers here?
Surely vegan babes can't swallow living sperm, so why put your cock near one?
More than likely the NZ vegans in the study weren't getting any sex at all. There were probably too few fellow vegans they wanted to engage with sexually (I can only imagine the NZ vegan "community" as rather small and probably as uptight as most Seattleites). Likely the NZ meat eaters were put off by vegan attempts at seduction (Hey babe, wanna come over. We can do some funky things with carrots and cucumbers...)

And while the article states that vegans found sex with meat eaters disgusting, my guess is that vegan women find ALL sex disgusting (although I am sure it is true the other way around, too).

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