..but i suspect it will be one long assed while before dan will be able to shake the image of his new persona as editor in chief of 'the daily planet'
...but obviously we don't know what's happening in the office and we won't have any clues until either Dan or Lindy start posting again.
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*currently singing 'sad trombone' to myself*
When a comment to a post demonstrates a total lack of comprehension then it is not worthy of being retained. The comment "no fat chicks" is more on topic than any anecdote of dieting success/failure. I disagree with the comment "no fat chicks" and find it appalling that someone reached the point in their life that they would post that. But it's honestly on Lindy's topic.
Lindy knows she's fat (see title of post). Lindy has heard of dieting and exercise before (she hasn't lived her life under a rock). (not referring to you here Canuck): Go back, re-read the post, and search your soul for some shred of decency. Fat people are not "fair game."
What do you weigh today?
- A million respect points for Dan Savage.
+ Five billion respect points for Lindy.
I have a disease that I did not choose, and it makes it unpleasant to be around me sometimes. It also increases my risk of various cancers and other health risks IF I DON'T DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. I don't always win that battle, but it is my battle to fight, not the people who think explosive diarrhea is gross, not the people who love me and want me to live the longest healthiest life possible. People should not assume things about you based on your appearance, but you should not give up just because it is hard. You will regret it down the road.
As for the rolls of exposed flesh being unattractive thing? I personally don't find them attractive but some people do. So Dan did screw up by presenting opinion as fact and he should be taken to task for that. He was speaking the truth when he said being fat is unhealthy. You may not like to hear that but it is the truth.
Sure, there are always going to be those examples of fat people who are perfectly healthy and live a long and trouble free life. They tend to be the exception though and their exceptional existence doesn't change the reality for the vast majority of fat people.
You can either accept that you are fat and leave it at that, OR you can accept you are fat and that means you will have to work that much harder than everyone else to be healthy. Just like a kid with dyslexia accepts that they are not stupid, they just have to work that much harder to prove they are not. Or a person with multiple sclerosis has to accept that they have a life-long disease and they will have to work that much harder to have the "normal" life everyone else takes for granted.
And Dan probably didn't allow comments because he doesn't want to steal Lindy's thunder. Slog record in the making!
There is more to dating than just being attractive physically. There is chemistry, logistics, time, money, and comparable values and agenda. I would be more impressed if people focused on THAT than their weight.
Do I feel that fat is less healthy, less attractive etc. etc. Well, yes, and I refuse to be shamed into feeling what I am and am not attracted to. That said, it's not my place or my job to be shamed into loving someone who just doesn't do it for me. And apparently, in many cases. I don't have to, there are other people willing to pick up the slack that I apparently don't have the "maturity" to accept.
I actually like Lindy's article. It is fun and witty, but I think she misses the point with respect to Dan. I'm not sure there is an answer that would be satisfying to so many of you besides a full on apology AND a night of sweet passionate love with Dan Savage. Is it not enough to say, you have the right to be whatever size you want to be. It is not enough to be accepted for who you are. It is not enough to be applauded for coming to terms with yourself and having a happy and fulfilling life?
Or is it about sweet gay love with Dan Savage? Tell us, is this what you want to hear? Because I am not sure what the correct response is.
@865 etc: Hydroza you rock!
@966: Riz, you are, and always will be awesome.
I must also add that I am disappointed in Dan for not allowing comments on his post this morning.
"Although I feel that being overweight is unhealthy, & that we as a nation have an obesity epidemic; & I reserve the right to find whoever I want to attractive, & that doesn't include fat people, I recognize that overweight folks are people too, & deserve to be spoken to as respectfully as I would address any other group of human beings. Also, I don't happen to know the cause of anyone else's body shape, whether fat or not, so unless asked, I'm gonna keep my snap judgments to myself. 'cause the body of someone I don't know is NONE OF MY FUCKING BUSINESS."
"Also, when expressing my concerns over obesity in the U.S.A., I'm gonna do my best to keep my loathing in check, so whatever good & factual I have to say doesn't get lost in the shittiness of my disgust."
Or something like that.
You seem to equate obesity and overeating. However, those two things are not the same: One is a physical and the other is a behavior, and while overeating certainly can contribute to obesity it is not the only factor. Plus, even if someone got fat by overeating their current weight does not give you any how they it at any given in time, or how they have been eating in the last weeks, even months. Also, for some of us fatties not trying to lose weight anymore means giving up a self-destructive behavior. I will go into more detail concerning this fatty’s history. Maybe that will make you understand a bit better… sorry, this is going to be long.
I have been fat as long as I can think. When I look childhood photos now, I am actually amazed that I do not look “that” fat, but I still was fat enough from a very early age on to make my pediatrician tell my parents that they needed to watch my food intake. And watch they did. I have lovely parents, but the fact that they constantly made me second-guess my body’s internal hunger and fullness signals (“Do you really want to eat this? Think about it. Are you REALLY hungry?”) combined with my teachers’ well-intended but sometimes cruel remarks (“If you don’t lose weight you will never get a boyfriend”) and the taunting and bullying of other kids significantly contributed to me developing maladaptive behaviors around food (such as getting up from the table before I was satisfied and then sneaking and later buying food secretly some time later, crying and feeling terribly ashamed while eating it, and later hiding the empty packaging in a desk drawer or a corner of my wardrobe because I was scared that my mum would see them if I threw them into the trash bin). Also, I started to hate my body and the constant message that my body was “broken” made me more reluctant to engage in physical activities that I actually enjoyed such as dancing and swimming. As a fat girl, I couldn’t be any good at dancing, after all, everyone knew that, including me, and while I was a good swimmer going to the pool was basically equally to asking others to bully me and call me names. When I was 11 or 12 I had developed full blown binge eating disorder.
I do not think people who comment on the “addictive nature of food” or on how there is a need to stigmatized overeating understand how much shame there is in binge eating already and how that shame contributes to the disorder. You feel bad about something, you have the urge to binge (often because under stress your self-control around food breaks down, something that has been shown again and again to be true for restricted eaters), at some point you give in, and even while you are eating you start calling yourself names in you head. This makes you feel terrible, and that in turn often contributes to the next binge. In addition to that, weeks or months of binge eating alternated with weeks or months of “successful” dieting in my case. I have fasted, dieted, and followed weight-loss programs supervised by doctors: I have done it all. And I always was “successful”, i.e., I always lost weight in the short term – lots of weight. In fact, I was called a “paragon” several times because I always, always stuck to my diet without cheating, eating less than I was “allowed” to eat, exercising more than I was asked to, several times losing up to 30 or 40 kg – until I just couldn’t keep it up any longer and started to regain. Lots of people will say that I would have needed to stick to the respective program for the rest of my life. And indeed, in order to keep the weight down I would have had to do just that. But here is the thing: Those weight-loss efforts had always a price. They came at the price of being constantly hungry and obsessed with food, and that obsession got only stronger the longer I kept up the respective diet. They came at the price at having less energy to do other things in my life. They came at the price of losing hair and once also my period (and it only returned several months after I had started to regain weight – and please note that even at my lowest weight since puberty I was still officially “overweight” bordering on “obese”).
Today I am a 31-year old “morbidly obese” woman. I try to engage in physical movement that is fun for me – something that isn’t easy, because believe me, going to a dancing class when you are fat or doing aqua fitness requires a lot of courage and on some days I do not have that courage, exactly because I am well aware that people find my body, my “obesity” disgusting. And I have recently given up dieting (and I define dieting as any conscious restriction of food intake). This isn’t the easy way out. In fact, this is incredibly hard. I have always, always craved social acceptance to a far higher degree than it is healthy – and I know that my fatness stands in the way of being totally accepted by others. Even today, every single comment from others how I “should” lose weight, how my weight is unhealthy, every implication that my body is broken, every disgusted look throws me back into a spin of eating disordered thoughts and not letting turn those thoughts into eating disordered behaviors – both, fasting or bingeing – requires more self-regulation and will power than people can imagine. Yes, my weight is a risk factor for certain diseases. But I believe (and that opinion is based on months and years of research and hard thinking) that continuing the cycle and not accepting my body as it is right now is a far greater threat for my mental and physical health.
You say you do not judge fat people but at the same time you say obesity is disgusting. You equate obesity with overeating and food addiction. I do not doubt that you mean well – but please, if you really want to have a positive influence on fat people’s health than listen to them, listen to their experiences. Create safe spaces for us to exercise. Encourage us and everyone else to cook, to truly enjoy food, to listen to our internal hunger and fullness cues. But also rethink what you are implying when you say obesity is disgusting. You cannot separate a person’s fat from the rest of their body.
yeah ..i think that's what he said ...
1) if you agree with Lindy you are just going to dump on Dan
2) you are a fat hater and since Dan has posted his disagreement (you can believe it or not) with you, why on earth would he want to hear support from you?
Not to mention pitbulls
Now Dan gets to try even more EXTRA hard to inflate the verbiage around his feelings of something else he doesn't like.
Happy Valentine's Day to you, too! Glad to see wittle bunnies have trumped rabid snow cats...spring must be coming to the Pacific Northwest... xxoo
He gave the response he thinks Lindy deserves. I just wish he'd edited out the typos this time.
Something tells me that Lindy didn't run this by him first. Something tells me that he was hit with this blindsided. I have no way of knowing this, except that I think that Dan would have shown a hell of a lot more respect to her if he'd had even a small inkling of what was coming.
You have way more control over your weight than anyone has over their sexuality. I say this as a straight man who is ~25 pounds heavier than I intend to be (I fluctuate in the winter time due to inactivity and heavy carb foods). You see who I blamed there? Myself. I don;t do shit because it;'s cold outside. I have the second helping of stuffing or pumpkin pie. I am the reason my jeans don't fit. And so are you.
You like links I see, so savor this: http://www.theonion.com/articles/glandul…
really, i appreciate your rebuttal to Dan's hateful comments Lindy.
I don't think Dan is the enemy, Ms. West.
As for the rant, which curiously manages to mix self-empowerment with victimhood, blah. Maybe you ought to stop assuming every fat person's experience and ability is identical to yours. Maybe you ought to learn to separate your friends from your enemies. And maybe you should treat other human beings as imperfect but wanting to be nice and do the right thing, instead of as cruel oppressors. Let me guess, women's studies?
The comments seem pretty much divided in terms of the details concerning obesity and the many issues involved with it. The bigger message, though, is one I can latch onto- which is that we love you Lindy. You bring laughter and joy to most of us who read your work because you are an intelligent, witty, incredibly eloquent individual. And as a writer technically we never even have to see what you look like physically- so I have to honestly say no one should give a damn what you look like.
HOWEVER- that is where my love ends. Your message of "I don't give a fuck what you think" is both inspirational and a little delusional/dangerous. I completely agree with the people here pointing out that if you truly DIDN'T give a flying fuck you wouldn't have so passionately written what you did. You care. And honestly it's important that you care. That everyone cares. Fat, skinny, average- it doesn't matter WHAT your weight is, generally speaking. It matters what your habits are. If you are 263lbs, but eat plenty of veggies, fruits, and keep the processed foods to a reasonable level, exercise regularly, and maintain an active, mentally stimulating existence then you are probably quite healthy and not, in fact, a drain on society.
But it is very, VERY rare for a person of your height and size to be doing all this and not seeing some form of change to their body mass. And when you honestly analyze your habits I'm sure there are a few little things you could be doing to improve your health (regardless of whether that will help your weight- though it most likely will). In any event my last comment on that would be as long as you are keeping yourself healthy enough to avoid Type II Diabetes, or any other fat-related medical issues then keep on truckin'. If not? Then your "fuck you I'm fine" isn't exactly correct or a healthy mental state.
In concern with all this Dan Hate? Dear god. I mean seriously. Dear. God. I went back and read his works. I've read almost every single thing he's written- and honestly? No, sorry, he does not hate fat people and his rhetoric is not toxic. All of these people hailing Dan as the Fat Antichrist and how much of a "fat Bully" he is really disturb me.
It feels a lot like Isaac Haye's response to Southpark's episode about Scientology. He spends nearly, what, 9 or 10 seasons on that show, participating in the complete lambasting of every pop culture institution, organized religion, philosophical ideology, social group and cause. But suddenly, after the show set its sights on Scientology he quits the show in a huff- spouting "How DARE you attack my religion! You never show this kind of disrespect to anything else and it is obvious your biased hatred for my religious institution!" Which left the makers of the show scratching their collective heads. Ripping apart religion is a corner-stone of Southpark and has been since their very first short (Santa Versus Jesus). But the minute they attack HIS religion it's suddenly hate speech worthy of him severing ties? Pathetic.
Dan is a blunt motherfucker. He calls it like he sees it. His "vitriol" about fat people is no more or less than any other group out there. His anger over the the Professional Gay Community's seeming need to blame the person who contracted HIV while staunchly defending the person who gave it to the individual being a good example. Sure he's 100% for gay rights, but that doesn't mean he's unwilling to call the gay community out for their own bullshit.
And the same exact thing can be said about his opinion of fat people. He calls them out on the overall health detriments of such a body-type and generally the kind of lifestyle that (not always, but more often than not) propagates it. And MORE often than not he's blaming our society and it's institutionalized propagation of obesity with their subsidies and food lobbyists just as much as individual responsibility. It's just in this case he's using the exact same language and temperament in concern with something that affects YOU- and suddenly you find him repulsive for it. Repulsive and evil for doing the same thing with the subject of body fat that he does for every other subject he talks about.
Just because it's suddenly closer to home does not mean he's treating the subject with any more or less respect than he treats anything else. You are simply seeing it that way.
Finally I have to agree with post, what was it, 448? The commenter wrote: "All that said, I'm not so sure about this equivalence between being fat and being gay. Setting aside the marriage thing, I've never heard of someone being beaten or killed by a couple of thugs for being fat, or having their parents drill into them that they are a moral abomination for being overweight. I'm not trying to be insensitive; I'm genuinely curious." And I agree completely with the point she is making. Sorry, Lindy- that is utter bullshit. Fat people and gay people aren't even in the same stratosphere. Sure there is absolutely a problem in our country, especially in our schools, with people bullying others over their weight. But I rarely hear about a person getting beat up or physically harassed or receiving even close to the same kind of hatred that gay kids get. Do overweight kids deserve an It Gets Better message of their own? Absolutely. But you are dead wrong if you think Gay and Fat are in any way equivalent.
Though I appreciate and respect your experience, I'm still doubting the idea that obesity comes from anything other than overeating. Yes, there's such thing as thyroid issues and slow metabolism (which I have as a result of past anorectic behaviour), but they usually only lead to slight weight problems. If you're eating the proper calorie amount for your height and weight, and have made sure there's no underlying psychological issue or disease, then there's no reason to be obese.
There are some psychological and physical diseases that lead to overeating, and these underlying factors need to be resolved for a person to live a full and active life.
I do know, intimately, what binge eating is all about, along with anorexia and bulimia. I've been there, done that. I KNOW what shame linked with food can do to a person. It's awful. It took be awhile, but I finally realized that my food issues were related to past sexual abuse I'd experienced. Before I made that connection, the problem had complete control over me. I'm not saying everyone with an eating problem has experienced sexual abuse, but I do believe that every addictive behaviour has an underlying psychological origin. You can't get rid of the addiction without honestly and courageously addressing the pain.
The problem I have with basic dieting and exercise programs is that they don't address the problem or the core of the issue. If a person is eating (or not eating...in the case of anorexia), there's an underlying issue that first has to be exposed, fully uncovered in all its ugliness, and then dealt with in full. If not, the person will never have control of their bodies, their impulses, or ultimately...their wellbeing.
poor judgment on his part, considering he's been fighting against the conservative/'real merikans' exact same reaction to the 'mos for decades.
If she did, then good for her. But Dan's response is more indicative of someone who feels like he's been blindsided than not.
One thing to contribute for those who are trying to lose weight -- not eating anything fatty is not necessarily healthy. The overwhelming pressure put on women, gay men, etc. to stay thin causes many to avoid important, healthy fats that can be found in sources like avocados and olive/vegetable oils. We need these fats for a healthy immune system and they are also important for having enough energy for, among other things, exercising and being active. So if you do try to change your diet, please read up and if you can afford it, see a nutritionist to make sure your body is getting what it needs.
I can see Dan being caught unaware or unprepared, but "blindsided" connotes a calculated sneak attack, and I think that's not what happened here. (It would be in keeping with his dramatic nature to take it that way; but obviously we don't know what's happening in the office and we won't have any clues until either Dan or Lindy start posting again.)
Absolutely true. I realize my posts are nothing more than speculation.
1. I was complimenting your comment at 865.
2. My "frivolous" compliment of Lindy's shoes is sincere and not some back-handed insult to her humanity. It was an off-topic item. I'd made other comments on the thread more relevant to the discussion. Besides, my hunch is that Lindy wouldn't object to a compliment of her shoes. If she herself didn't appreciate nice-looking shoes, she'd be wearing Crocs or Uggs. ANYWAY...
3. My reference to brevity was re: My previous posts. As a "morbidly obese" person myself, I could've offered my 10 paragraphs of my trials and tribulations, but opted for brevity. That's all. Whatever.
PS Dan not offering comments on his rebuttal speaks volumes.
HOWEVER - the very BEST way would be for Lindy and Dan to do a joint post here (either drawn swords or a slobbering kiss and make up) and THEN do a "thank you" cut off.....
I read through the links in the OP that are supposed to document Dan's fat-shaming, and seriously, I don't see it. I see him talking with the same characteristic humorous bluntness that he brings to everything, including himself.
Again, I like both Dan and Lindy and it seems senseless that this should turn into one against the other.
Food is an addiction. Over-eaters are like drug addicts.
When you criticize addicts about their drug use, they fly off the handle. They do everything in their power to convince you that you shouldn't criticize them.
I was like that about smoking. When people talked about how it was bad for me, it made me LIVID. It was a visceral reaction, "HOW FECKING DARE YOU!"
I completely identified with Lindy's post except change, "I'm fat" to "I'm a smoker" and make the whole thing private because it's a much harder sell when it's about smoking.
Especially the whole, "I'm much more likely to lose weight if you stop talking about how I should lose weight." I've actually seen people make the argument, on many occasions, "When you tell me how bad it is for me, it makes me want to smoke more."
I'm not saying it's a lie, either. Facing a tough life change produces anxiety and your drug of choice usually helps you deal with anxiety. Laying down and giving in to that is no solution.
You probably shouldn't live in this beautifully circular construct where you cant' stop unless there's no reason for you to stop. But, if there's no reason for you to stop....
Instead, find a different way to deal with these emotions that won't likely end your life prematurely.
The more I actually think about what Lindy wrote -- and as much as I love her way with words -- I think she's just really, really off base here.
I've been reading him since The Stranger was a few pages that folded in half, and I've never felt so little respect for him. Boo, hiss.
If you think that thin/underweight folks don't get harassed for looking anorexic/too thin, or they don't have to deal with bullshit back-handed "compliments" from friend that merely seek to single you out for making them feel bad.
And being dismissed on my opinions on fashion/food/whatever because, "oh, you're so skinny." I am constantly identified by the size of my body. I hear about the size of my body daily. I am grouped and stereotyped because of the size of my body.
And if you think that my size doesn't affect my health, you're wrong again. My sized turned a stomach flu into a 3-day hospital stay because I was so depleted and weak.
I do have to deal with unsolicited advice about my diet from people who have deemed me "too skinny."
That list is crap.
Except that if you stop eating, you die. It's not really the same, but do try again.
Dan's new post seems pretty defensive. Sure, he's managed to be civil in several questions involving overweight people. But his hatred for fatties has been pretty clear in others. He's obviously pissed some people off, but rather than acknowledge that he's just saying "nuh-uh."
I'm finding Dan's column about 90% less interesting now. He doesn't really say anything novel. I guess I used to read it partly because he seemed like a good guy.