Comments

305
FUBAR blew his dad card by chumming the waters in which his family swims in the first place. And the daughter? She's fifteen! Sometimes blowing the top off a dysfunctional situation is the only to make sure the rancid interior gets either cleaned out or thrown out. It's not the prettiest solution, but it gets the job done.
306
@281/288 - The two teens wreaking vengeance via the internet could have been cribbed from some Lifetime movie.
307
@293.

YES
308
Everyone calling the daughter a 'bitch' or a 'sociopath' needs to check their empathy. And consider the source - entitled jackass who is mad his mistress got found out.

I'm guessing he wasn't as sneaky as he thought, that daughter knew he was fucking around on her mom, and impulsively and with all the forethought of a teen of the facebook generation, thought using the internet would help.

Everyone in both fucking families needs therapy.
309
@299: If the father's affair DID get stuffed down the family's memory hole -- a more reasonable way of saying the same thing is that the mother and father worked through the issue and the marriage survived -- that is the parents' prerogative. It isn't the daughter's place to raise such a citywide stink that there's no possibility of patching things up.
310
What 117 said is pretty good too.
311
@309:

I'm not about to nominate the daughter for any sort of award, and I fully acknowledge that she drastically lowered the odds of her parents "patching things up." However -- and I speak from a great deal of unhappy personal experience -- things like FUBARD's affair can, and often do, get "memory holed" without having been worked through in any significant way. The result? A superficially intact marriage built atop a sinkhole of seething resentments. Yeah, it looks good to the rest of the world, but when you actually have to live in it . . .

I grew up as the child of precisely this kind of marriage, and it was not, by any stretch of the imagination, "fun times." By the time I was FUBARD's daughter's age, I'd seen so many (figurative) bodies stuffed in the family closet to skeletonize that I was damn well desperate for my parents to stop tormenting each other and just get divorced already. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the daughter's motive, of course, but it is a possibility.
312
The people who think the daughter needs punishment(including the dad) strike me as utterly out to lunch. She's 15 and probably just had the most horrifying shock and betrayal of her life. From her perspective, the cause of all this evil was dishonesty, so it makes sense that she would respond by insisting on total honesty and full disclosure. Why would anyone assume that she sent the pictures to the woman's kids out of cruelty? These were family friends, right? She probably thinks they deserve to know the truth about who their mother is, just like she discovered the truth about her father. Is a 15 year old mature enough to ponder all the moral nuances of disclosing information, especially when she's just endured something traumatic?

Regarding advice for the letter writer: The surest way to destroy any future relationship with your daughter is to be so intent on punishing her, rather than taking the blame yourself. Man up and own what you did, instead of finding a convenient excuse to point the finger at your 15 year old. That's your best chance of salvaging both her sanity and your future relationship with her. Otherwise, you're doomed.
313
Anyone who blames the DAUGHTER for screwing up these families is a total asshole.

The cheaters screwed up the families by having an affair that had to be hidden or it would ruin lives. Then the affair was revealed, and it ruined lives. The fact that the revelation happened via the teenager finding out and telling on him is beside the point. If he was going around leaving his email logged in, and his girlfriend was sending him racy chats and pictures *while vacationing with family*, it was going to come out somehow.

It's the detail that the girlfriend was vacationing with family that makes me doubt this is a real letter, though. How would she have any privacy to take racy pictures in a hotel room she would have been sharing with her husband?
314
Wow.

Like others have said, your first priority in all of this is to punish your daughter? Grounding for a year? Sending her away? Cutting her off from her best friend? Charming. I'm blown away that you thought that you're the one to be empathized with in this situation. You AND your mistress, natch. Wow.

Not only is the girl FIFTEEN, betrayed by her father, but also by a close family friend, that she probably saw as a second mother or aunt. That's a huge deal. Much as teenagers might say otherwise, family is everything, and friends are almost everything. I can guarantee that this girl wasn't being vindictive--she was telling everyone she thought had a right to know: her family and her friends.

You're supposed to be the adult in the situation, and it's obvious you're out for revenge. Do it, and you'll lose your daughter. I'm actually not sure that you already haven't, because I'm sure you're not hiding your hostility toward her in the meantime. It's disgusting that your first priority is to avenge your embarrassed mistress by punishing your DAUGHTER. It's disgusting that you're putting your mistress before your daughter. Disgusting. Your daughter deserves much better than you for a father.

315
1. Get counseling for your daughter, and family counseling for all of you;
2. Have your daughter apologize to those she sent the photos to -- the other woman's children, parents, the mutual acquaintances, etc. -- either in person or in personalized letters;
3. Take away your daughter's access to email, social networks, etc, and cell phone privileges until you feel she is ready to make better decisions.
Good luck to all involved -- what a painful situation for everyone.
316
Are these comments for real? A man cheats on his wife with a close family friend and leaves 'adult' photos and chats laying around for anyone to find, and he's a hero because oh he made the effort to lie to his wife, family and friends for three years so they wouldn't be hurt! Well get the man a medal! Meanwhile an underage child who is confronted with sexual material featuring her DAD proving her dad's been knocking off a family friend for years, freaking out and not helping him keep a sick destructive secret, is a "tart" a "slut" and a "harlot"? Really? Calling her a bitch or a sociopath is one thing, but "SLUT"? You don't know any way to criticize female behavior without using derogatory sexual terms? Says a lot about how much patriarchal society hates women. Bet if the dad had raped the child (rather than just inappropriately expose her to his sex life) you'd still be blaming her and saying she was a slut.
317
Btw I am not saying what the dad did negates his daughter's actions. Of course the daughter handled it poorly and did the wrong thing. But all the comments flat out saying the dad did absolutely nothing wrong and everything is 100% the fault of the daughter, when the dad is the one cheating, lying and exposing his minor child to inappropriate sexual content, are beyond sick.
318
What does the dad think the mom would have done if she had been the one to find the explicit evidence. Confront him, kick him out, superglue his cock and balls, cut them off. I could go on and on giving real life examples of extreme reactions to cheating. In the grand scheme of things and spectrum of possible outcomes what the daughter is not all that extreme. Spare me the outrage. On top everything the daughter and also the mother are probably feeling as if their home had been violated/defiled even if the dad did not have sex with the girlfriend in the home or marital bed. God have mercy on his sorry ass if they did. The same is probably true for the girlfriend's spouse and family. If you question how violated the wife and daughter feel, talk to anyone whose home has been burglarized or who has been ripped off by a close friend or family member.
319
Wow Dan. I didn't realize how many sex negative people read your column! A lot of people burned by cheating are clearly not the best advisers for cheating husbands!

Cheating doesn't start randomly one day out of boredom. This husband was clearly not sexually satisfied in his marriage. While his wife probably didn't know he was cheating, or to what extent, she surely would have also recognized their differing sex drives. And hopefully she at least considered the possibility that he was fulfilling his needs elsewhere.
I'm sure it must have been tragic for his daughter to find this information. That being said, she didn't think to spare her mother's feelings or that of the other woman's family. She should be told, preferably by her mother, the extent of damage that has been done; not necessarily by her but the whole situation. If the mother is rational enough to discuss it, they should talk about why people cheat. Hopefully the daughter understands what she could have done better in this situation; I.e. talking to her father about what she saw, talking to her mother privately, etc. Empathy develops with age so she may not fully understand the extent of damage until she is much older. I wish all those involved good luck.
320
I'm not bubbling over with sympathy for the daughter. I don't see her as this totally innocent victim - she sought this information out and then played it for maximum damage. Sure, she was hurt, outraged, blah blah blah. She still did it to herself - she decided to poke through Dad's email. Curiosity killed the cat and all. Dad's cheating wasn't "nice" - but I think that pales in significance to the maliciousness the daughter showed. I don't at all equate having someone on the side with trying to hurt people as much as you possibly can. Sure she's a kid, lashing out, etc. - well, welcome to adulthood. And wise the fuck up.

That said, I do feel for all involved, including the daughter. It sounds like everybody in the family is going to be angry for a long time going.

Punishing the daughter is out of line. But it would be a long long time before I ever trusted her again.
321
I'm not bubbling over with sympathy for the daughter. I don't see her as this totally innocent victim - she sought this information out and then played it for maximum damage. Sure, she was hurt, outraged, blah blah blah. She still did it to herself - she decided to poke through Dad's email. Curiosity killed the cat and all. Dad's cheating wasn't "nice" - but I think that pales in significance to the maliciousness the daughter showed. I don't at all equate having someone on the side with trying to hurt people as much as you possibly can. Sure she's a kid, lashing out, etc. - well, welcome to adulthood. And wise the fuck up.

That said, I do feel for all involved, including the daughter. It sounds like everybody in the family is going to be angry for a long time going.

Punishing the daughter is out of line. But it would be a long long time before I ever trusted her again.
322
I'm not bubbling over with sympathy for the daughter. I don't see her as this totally innocent victim - she sought this information out and then played it for maximum damage. Sure, she was hurt, outraged, blah blah blah. She still did it to herself - she decided to poke through Dad's email. Curiosity killed the cat and all. Dad's cheating wasn't "nice" - but I think that pales in significance to the maliciousness the daughter showed. I don't at all equate having someone on the side with trying to hurt people as much as you possibly can. Sure she's a kid, lashing out, etc. - well, welcome to adulthood. And wise the fuck up.

That said, I do feel for all involved, including the daughter. It sounds like everybody in the family is going to be angry for a long time going.

Punishing the daughter is out of line. But it would be a long long time before I ever trusted her again.
323
@266--No. It would be an argument against any judge who'd had personal data WikiLeaked being involved with prosecuting Assange, but the government isn't a person.

Not that I think Assange should be prosecuted, just that conflict of internets isn't a valid argument here.
324
Same thing happened to me when I was 15. We found out my father was having an affair. Almost 10yrs later, my trust in men is still destroyed, despite therapy. I also found out the same way she did. You have no grounds to talk about respect when you don't even have a clue what it means. Your actions have punished your family more than they ever will deserve. Stop trying to take your anger out on your child who you've already punished, emotionally because she ruined your disgusting secret. You made your bed, now you lay in it.

Actually BE an adult for once, it's not HER fault you had to be a sneaky coward.
325
Not thinking that cheating and lying for years and exposing a minor to inappropriate sexual behavior is just fine and dandy does not make a person "sex negative." The fact there are posters implying the mother is to blame for not meeting her husband's sexual needs and calling the daughter slut and whore when there is not the slightest sexual componant to her behavior at all shows nothing but what a deep hatred of women some people have.

Sorry but no man "needs" to bang his wife's friends and send home porn from the family computer. If he really wasn't capable of keeping his zipper zipped he should have broken up with his wife. There is no way to justify his behavior, and attacking the wife because her husband claims she has a low sex drive isn't the way to go about it. Btw I'm willing to bet most women whose husbands accuse them of being frigid to justify their cheating would disagree.

Make all the assumptions about my life you like if you feel compelled to, but for for the record I've never been cheated on, nor did my father ever cheat on my mother. Believe it or not, you don't have to be a bitter cheated-on women to think lying and cheating is wrong and not a man's natural right when denied his "sexual needs."
326
One of the classic examples of when "temporary insanity" may be a legal excuse even for murder is walking in on a cheating spouse in bed with his/her lover. It's understood that no one thinks rationally under those circumstances. Your moral compass goes out the window, you have no sense of proportionality, you just want to hurt your spouse and the lover as badly as possible... damn the consequences and collateral damage. If there's a gun around, no one's surprised it gets used!

I think the daughter is entitled to the same understanding, when finding out (with graphic details) that Daddy is enthusiastically screwing a family friend, also married and with kids. The snooping was prompted by "raunchy" chat on the family computer... what 15-year-old would not follow *that* trail? And then the trail led to "racy" and "explicit" photos of the "close family friend" and/or Daddy naked... OMG --no wonder she freaked out !!!

Most likely, when she sent the e-mails to both families, she was just thinking in terms of outing the cheaters to both their families, both to punish the cheaters and because she figured their families had the right to know, too.

YES, including the woman's kids was insensitive and shitty. As far as I'm concerned, that's the only thing she can be faulted for. But I bet the daughter herself now realizes it was shitty, and that if she had it to do over she would leave them off the list. But in the heat of the moment, it seemed like a good idea. And no, rat bastard, given your behavior over the last 3 years, you have no moral high ground to criticize her for what she did in the heat of the moment.

Anyway, the mom should talk to her ONCE about the shittiness of that aspect, then let the rest go. She's punished enough by all the fallout. And do NOT cut her off from her best friend. That's her lifeline right now, you twit. Your only hope of any further relationship is to focus on what YOU did wrong. Here's a hint: it wasn't getting caught.
327
One of the classic examples of when "temporary insanity" may be a legal excuse even for murder is walking in on a cheating spouse in bed with his/her lover. It's understood that no one thinks rationally under those circumstances. Your moral compass goes out the window, you have no sense of proportionality, you just want to hurt your spouse and the lover as badly as possible... damn the consequences and collateral damage. If there's a gun around, no one's surprised it gets used!

I think the daughter is entitled to the same understanding, when finding out (with graphic details) that Daddy is enthusiastically screwing a family friend, also married and with kids. The snooping was prompted by "raunchy" chat on the family computer... what 15-year-old would not follow *that* trail? And then the trail led to "racy" and "explicit" photos of the "close family friend" and/or Daddy naked... OMG --no wonder she freaked out !!!

Most likely, when she sent the e-mails to both families, she was just thinking in terms of outing the cheaters to both their families, both to punish the cheaters and because she figured their families had the right to know, too.

YES, including the woman's kids was insensitive and shitty. As far as I'm concerned, that's the only thing she can be faulted for. But I bet the daughter herself now realizes it was shitty, and that if she had it to do over she would leave them off the list. But in the heat of the moment, it seemed like a good idea. And no, rat bastard, given your behavior over the last 3 years, you have no moral high ground to criticize her for what she did in the heat of the moment.

Anyway, the mom should talk to her ONCE about the shittiness of that aspect, then let the rest go. She's punished enough by all the fallout. And do NOT cut her off from her best friend. That's her lifeline right now, you twit. Your only hope of any further relationship is to focus on what YOU did wrong. Here's a hint: it wasn't getting caught.
328
YOU'RE the one who should be punished, you sack of shit.
329
Honestly, it sounds like FUBARDs anger at his daughter is stemming more from the anxiety that he got caught. His daughter didn't make the best decision in sending out the pictures, but she's also 15, and so prone to making stupid decisions. I have to admit, a similar thing happened to my family last year, and I remember the anger I felt toward the other woman in the mix. His daughter acted out of her own anger at his betrayal, and her anger is completely valid.

Also, she did not invade his privacy. He left his email account logged in. This was his own fault and he'd be best to back off his daughter completely. His attitude is so off base, I find it scummy that his first reaction is to punish his daughter for outting his indescretion, rather than apologizing to her for turning her world upside down. He seems to have no regard for the fact that he's destroyed her home life and certainly her view of him. Only that because of her, he got caught. And she should be punished.

Grow the hell up and start rebuilding your relationship with your daughter, rather than trying to be the father your actions just forfeited you from being.
330
He mentioned something about his daughter disrespecting him, respect is earned and mutual. He disrespected his family, including his daughter, when he cheated. His case doesn't fall under any of Dan's justified reasons for cheating. If I were the mother i'd buy my daughter ice cream. as for the other women's children I feel they have as much right to know their mother is a CPOS as the man's daughter. Oh, and regarding that best friend, the daughter's going to need the emotional support of the person who was there when she found out and had her rather emotional nd logical reaction.
331
She doesn't deserve to be punished. You do. You got what you deserved and now you're trying to blame your innocent child? Do her a favour and stay out of her life. Asshole.
332
'punish' your daughter by sending her away to an incredibly prestigious boarding school so she can get a good enough education to get a scholarship to an ivy league school where she can work very hard and then in turn get a scholarship to law school or med school. This way, she can effectively get the fuck way from you and be financially independent of you in just three years. And good riddance to you indeed.
333
know what? i'm wondering if FUBARD was totally irresponsible for sending this to Savage in the first place. What if the daughter or other members of the family read this and read all the horrible things here? i'm sure they'd recognize their own story if they saw it.
just a shitty thing to do to a 15 year-old. if she finds this thread, that's way more punishment than she deserves.
334
Basically? You have no understanding of the terms 'friendship', 'honorable', 'respect' or 'wrong'. Your choices have, up to this point, been entirely based on your own self-interest, and therefore you have no right to choose anything like punishment for your daughter.

If you have any feelings for her well-being at all, any whatsoever... leave. But before you go, make sure somebody keeps her on suicide-watch. It's going to be necessary, and it's your fault.
335
Has anyone mentioned the fact that the dad's affair was not just violating his monogamous promise to his wife, but violating his implied promise to behave like a parent committed to the other parent of his 15-year old daughter? A lot of these comments seem to say that he might have betrayed his wife's trust, but didn't betray his daughter's trust. He did. And he got caught, big time. He pays. He's the adult, it's his responsibility. The 15 yo deserves no more punishment.
336
And for those worrying about the families recognizing themselves on this post, I'm guessing there will be more than one group of people who see themselves here.
337
Really? The DAUGHTER'S phone, internet access, etc, should be restricted?! No - FUBARD's smartphone should be taken away, he should have limited/supervised internet access, he shouldn't be allowed to use social networking sites, etc, until he learns how to use the internet responsibly. He's the one who carelessly forgot to log out. He's the one trading porn on the family computer. I bet the daughter, being of the internet generation, is a lot more careful with her accounts, knows how to delete history, etc. He's the one who needs a "dumbphone."
338
FUBARD, you must be joking! Next time you have an affair (if you dare to) learn the tricks of the trade. Leave no electronic trace. no cell phone bills, hotel bills, emails, texts, and most obvious of all, gmail video chats behind! If you want/need to have extramarital sex, don't me an amateur. Secondly, you are the one at fault here, not your daughter. Where is your moral compass? You have been fucking your family's friend, betraying your wife and children, and not even respecting them enough to cover your tracks. You should move out asap.
339

On an episode of How I Met Your Mother, two characters enter into a "slap bet". The winner gets to slap the loser 5 times. They don't know when, but they know it's coming. It can be one slap at a time over the course of years, or several in a day. NOBODY knows.

This little bitch faced beast of a child deserves this, and more. Along with smacking the fear of god into her, I would take the thing physically to the home of every person she sent the picture to, and she would apologize. She would not cry - why does she get to cry??

Also, boot camp.

340
i am a 21 year old female living with my mom,dad, and two younger siblings.when i was 15 my parents were having an argument one morning and i heard my dad yell at my mom that she had cheated on him.my whole world came crashing down at that moment.i ended up climbing out my window and running to a friends house.i could not explain the hate i felt for my mother.she had betrayed my dad,my DAD!she had betrayed me and my two younger,completely innocent younger siblings by altering our lives for a very long time,possibly forever.when i finally came home my mom sat me down and explained to me that what was said was out of anger and heat of the moment and that she loved my dad very much and would never cheat on him(usually being the one on the other end of my dads anger for whatever i had done at the moment i knew that was true).my faith in my mother and family had been restored.
flash forward
being an almost 22 year old female i understand that the next relationship i have could be the person that i spend the rest of my life with(my mom met my dad when she was 20).i am extremely picky when it comes to men because i want the love and realtionship that my parents share that has kept them together for the last 20 something years.my parents have had their share of arguments and rough times as does every marrige but i would be so lucky to have the marrige they have someday and they are what i look up to.

i dont have children of my own so i really am not one to give imput on punishment but i tend to think that your daughters family being ripped apart and all of her faith in her father,YOU, and her family being taken away is enough,but if you feel other wise then maybe you should join her in community service to be punished for your actions as well.you think what your daughter did was extreme,well id say what you did was more extreme and your daughters punishment for you fits your crime to say the least.
341
A full year of confinement, seriously? I suspect that the LW's desire to be The Almighty Punisher is his way of attempting to save face.
342
Seriously? Yeah, chastise your daughter for sending it to underage kids. But I bet (if you were anything at all of a parent, or your spouse was) she's got at least some grasp of morality already, and feels pretty shitty about that.
I hate the whole 'oh I need to stay with my spouse for the kids...but not enough to stay faithful!'
I recently found out my dad cheated on my mom. What a piece of shit. I feel like he's a hypocrite now and that he's eroded at my trust with him. An open marriage is a totally different thing. Knowing that your parent is doing something that would make your other parent feel like shit, make your other parent feel like they're not good enough, and apparently not caring enough to fucking be discreet about it? When I found out my dad did this, I wouldn't give a crap about anything he told me about "sending materials that would hurt other people and be traumatic for them." Because seriously? He created this situation. If a therapist (I applaud whoever suggested earlier that he pay for her therapy) explained to me the problem with me doing this by sending pictures to children and her parents, I would understand.
It's just sickening to realize that this person you've looked up to, this person who you've thought was awesome, this relationship that you were created from...are dirtied. Because that person was willing to cut their spouse, your other parent, to the core, because of sex. It's such a betrayal.
And yeah, I have a crazy high sex drive. Yeah, I understand the impulse to cheat.
Masturbate to porn a lot. Don't have an affair. Approach your spouse and tell him/her that you need more sex in your life, that you need to feel attractive. Explore with them what might work--you can't have sex with other people but you can show yourself off naked online or go out and get hit on, or you can but only with blah blah blah. And if neither of you can come to a solution--divorce.
It's called cheating because you're acting unfairly, when your spouse thinks that you're being beholden to the same rules. And believe me, your kids will find out. And it won't matter if your spouse is frigid, sexually dismissive or just asexual. They won't care. Because that's not what matters. What matters is that YOU couldn't find a way to fix the problem as a couple, and instead of agreeing that you both were now divorced, you had to be selfish.
Ugh. It just makes me sick the level of self-involvement this man has.
343
Of course - The Good Apprentice. Midge McCaskerville's 13-year-old son Meredith comes home, sees her in negligee, and hears family friend/her secret lover Harry Cuno call to her from the next room. Midge puts a finger to her lips, and Meredith silently leaves. Some time later, when the whole family are in the country, Meredith returns the gesture while Thomas' attention is elsewhere, but Meredith never mentions the affair until he's having a discussion of morality with his mentor, Harry's university-aged son Stuart. Even then, Meredith only says his mother is having a secret affair, not with whom.
344
I recall, at the age of 19, discovering my then-boyfriend's relationship with another woman. Among my first anguished reactions was the desire to expose and ruin both of them-- tell his parents, tell her employers, discredit them however I could. Thank goodness the computer was off and I called a wise friend instead, because my strong impulse (at age 19, mind you, not even 15) was to rain hell upon everyone in sight. There was no logic, no morals, just acute pain seeking some outlet. Any punishment must acknowledge the pure rage, not immorality, driving her actions at the time of discovery.
345
Forget the affair (as Dan said, spare the fidelity lectures, we know FUBAR did wrong) for a second and think of all the stops that girl had to blow through to do what she did.
She didn't stop when she found the e-mail account open.
She didn't stop when she engaged her father's girlfriend in a chat.
She didn't stop when she elicited photos from the girlfriend, or stop when she had to keep up the charade long enough to get additional photos that included the woman's face.
She didn't stop when she sent those photos not just to her mother and the girlfriend's husband, but also to the girlfriend's parents and children.
This was a twisted, evil act that doesn't even begin to measure up to a sexual and emotional infidelity.
He had an affair, a hurtful one and terribly damaging one, but to purposefully seek out the information she did and force it into the lives of others without their consent is despicable beyond belief.
I wouldn't want to be in her life long enough to punish her. How you repair the damage she created โ€” and she created it, not FUBAR โ€” with her contemptible actions is beyond me.
346
I can't believe what awful, sex-negative, unforgiving, narrow-minded definitions people are using for "father" and "marriage." That father had an affair to hold his marriage together, presumably for his daughter's sake. At least in part. When I was 15 I was aware of the fact that my parents were human beings and not just my parents. All this chatter about the father betraying his daughter is bullshit. His responsibility to her has nothing to do with his sexual behavior. What parents do sexually is none of the children's business. And the suggestion that a good parent does NOT have sex is ridiculous.

If the daughter had lashed out for another reason....say her prom date stood her up. Would you still think she was justified because she's 15, and the situation is so awful, and she's too young to know better? I think not.

347
I'm sure his daughter feels bad enough already, after seeing those pictures and the damage she's caused to everyone's lives - excessive punishment would just be gilding the lily.
348
72 and 88. Therapy therapy therapy for everyone, by someone who doesn't suck.

I wouldn't automatically shunt the decision to the mom, either. Just because she appears to have done nothing wrong here doesn't mean she has good judgment. Try to love your daughter, despite the fact that you hate her. I'd start with that.

349
Ok, let's take it from the top.

The dad screwed up. He cheated on his wife, with a friend, and then was careless with the evidence. That's 3 strikes right there.

What the daughter did was also wrong, albeit more understandable. I'm not sure
350
Her actions were a reflection of the magnitude of her pain. You will never be able to make this up to her, she will be affected by it for the rest of her life. It will without doubt fuck up her future relationships with men, sexual or not. She will be paying for the rest of her life. She has just effectively lost her father. I fail to see why you are trying to make things worse for her, and trying to make her hate you more. I'm thinking you might benefit more from the punishment you would inflict on her than she would, although if it meant she didn't have to see your face or hear your voice she might prefer it. Your job now? Crawl. Crawl until she hates you less. Crawl until the debt of not only your own children's suffering but your girlfriend's children's suffering is alleviated. I give it a decade at least. Maybe if you actually put some effort into caring for your kids in their time of need they might still consider you part of their family rather than the person who destroyed it.
351
fuck the brat. ban the friend from the house (even if your daughter was upset, letting her friend get involved is inexcusable), ban her from the computer. 15 years old is plenty old enough to know that email accounts are private. this affair hurt absolutely no one. chances are it helped keep two marriages together, and was discreet enough that no one would've known had this brat gotten involved. i'd also like to note that the writer has no way of knowing that he left his email logged in. 15 year olds can and will snoop intentionally trying to find dirt if they're upset about ANYTHING a parent's done. discuss things with your wife, discuss things with your mistress, and if need be, apologize to your mistress' husband. i'd probably say let him get a free punch in the face or something like that. but the daughter? grounded. banned from the computer for at least a month, monitored use for a month thereafter. the idea that people are responding saying he has a moral issue are clumping all the issues here together. his affair and his daughter's blatant disregard for both his privacy and the feelings of the other people involved are different things, and should be treated as such. i've seen people saying that the girl's traumatized and things like that. hardly. she saw her family friend naked. racy pictures are racy pictures. she's seen them on the internet. even young girls get curious about porn, i'd wager this is no different. her father's affair was none of her business, and it's not as though she saw them because of "his carelessness" as some people said. she actively pretended to be him. does no one see how monumentally fucked up that actually is? if she'd violated his privacy and sent pictures he already had, forwarding them would've been (something akin) to justifiable. she was hurt and upset. she went out of her way to get fodder. she sought this damage, and deserves to be punished. she likes to invade privacy, tear hers away. door off her bedroom. make her provide you with her passwords. go through her facebook and email. see how she feels. then talk about how "upset" she is.
352
You do nothing. You take her to a counselor. You don't give a reason besides "you have a lot you're going to need to process, and neither your mother nor I have the proper training to help you do that."

If you punish her, it's over. If you keep punishing her, then you're just dragging it out, and you're the asshole. You see, the beauty of a spanking, or grounding, is that you, as her parent, are telling her, "this is equivalent to what you did."

She did a devastating thing and about the only thing that can possibly punish her according to the severity of her actions is herself.

So you make her live with it. That's her punishment. She did this horrible, cruel, mean-spirited thing on an angry whim, there is nothing that she can ever do to fix it, and she gets to live with it.

Just like you do. I welcome you both to the grown up world where you can't always fix your fuckups.
353
You may be hurt, but don't forget that your daughter has feelings too. She didn't do it because she's a sadistic bitch, she did it because she was angry.
You can't be angry for her exposing the affair, but you can be angry for her sending the photos. That was unnecessary.
Punishment isn't going to achieve anything except maybe making you feel better. Just tell her (don't come up to her to talk about it, but if she or your wife says that you can't be mad at her then reply with this) that you're not mad about her revealing your affair, but sending nude photos of somebody without their permission, especially to their relatives, is a horrible thing to do.
Also, see a therapist because you seem to have a severe deficiency of empathy. You scare me a bit.
354
I wonder what the timeline is for the daughter discovering the racy photos and chats, sending a fake reply, receiving the porn back, and fwding them on. It may have taken place over the course of days or the entire e-mail exchange may have happened within minutes. I am not condoning what she did at all, but if it did all happen very quickly that would suggest she lashed out on impulse without thinking about it, which is somewhat understandable. If it took days that would suggest a more cold-minded manipulation.

Oh, and the posters calling the underage girl an evil slutty bitch whore, attacking anyone who thinks cheating, lying, and exposing your kid to porn isn't totally fine "awful" sex-negative prudes, and claiming the father is an innocent hero who should be applauded for everything he did -- if you really believe that I genuinely feel sorry for you because such hatred of women suggests real issues, but can you at least attempt to state your opinions without using without misogynistic gendered slurs and attacking and name-calling anyone who disagrees with you?

I am poly myself, because I don't believe in monogamy, and I put my money where my mouth is. No one forced the man to get into or stay in a monogamous marriage. Cheating is cowardly. Letting yourself get caught by a kid is moronic. Nothing 'sex negative' about that.
355
She's 15! You do not "punish" this. You can talk about boundaries. She overreacted in a fit of rage, but she's 15. I agree this sounds like a vindictive father trying to take his screw ups (dude, if you can't manage an affair quietly, don't do it) out on a child.
356
@149 exactly! kids are a reflection of their parents. I doubt she cared about the hypocrisy as much as the power she had gained to destroy the one who controlled her for so long. Sounds very similar to her dad, that said, her dad no longer should associate with her (imho) until she says sorry. That's the real world.

There's nothing he can do until she develops some empathy for the human condition of desires and pain, which he nor she has. Therapy doesn't matter at this point. Only time can heal this wound. She thinks she's better than her father, the innocence is gone.

She ate the apple, he left it on the counter, the veil has been removed and lives are forever changed. Nobody is perfect, but she needs to realize that destructive power is an evil force and empathy and love for eachothers' imperfections is all we humans have in this world that's worth a damn -- in one word, love. This is probably the best thing that has happened to them both in a long time. Everything is on the table now. There is no pretending anyone is perfect anymore. 15 is a good time to grow up.
357
It's very simple: FUBARD gets to impose a punishment on his daughter for her drive-by grenade attack on FUBARD's girlfriend's children, if and only if he agrees to abide whatever punishment his daughter wishes to impose on him for detonating a grenade in the middle of his own family.
358
Good god. I'm stunned at the amount of commenters whose basic attitude is "cheaters need to burned at the stake!" I've read a good number of comments and can only find four or five that aren't just completely fucked up.

You people have no idea about the marriages involved. It's very likely that the cheating was keeping both couples from divorcing.

I thought that Dan's readers would be a little more reasonable. You fuckwads surprise me every time listen to you.
359

Might not know about the marriages involved, but to be sure, just from reading this letter from a guy that wants to destroy what's left of his 15 year-old daughter's life, I can tell that the only person he gives a shit about is himself. Way to try to rationalize it, jackass. You sound just like my father, who was a grade-A narcissist and pinned the blame for his marriage-destroying actions on MY anger issues-- also, when I was 15. I hope you and he both get hit by a car.
360
The 15 year old has big issues, if she didn't already, with trust, relationships with men, etc. However, the main issue is that she's an asshole, bordering on a monster. Yes, you have to face the fact that you raised a shitty kid. She's punishing herself, and will punish any unlucky bastard who tries to date her. Reading all the anger and hostility in the comments, I feel sorry for piling on, so I'll get to the advice: I think any punishment is superfluous. Try forgiveness instead, and hope that it saves her from being someone who goes through life trying to hurt men because of her feelings of betrayal and her inability to recognize her own shittiness.
361
One thing I wonder as I read this is how much privacy the daughter normally has. When I was 15, I had very little privacy. My family didn't even put on the appearance of giving me privacy. If I was talking on the phone, they'd chime in based on my half of the telephone conversation. If I had to plunger the toilet after taking a dump, it would get commented upon. Even when I chose to pray, alone in my room behind closed doors, they'd tell me I was a good girl for saying my prayers. Everything that could be seen or heard or deduced was subject to observation, scrutiny, and judgement by all members of the family and anyone else who happened to be present.

Because of this, I had literally no idea whatsoever that it was in any way inappropriate to snoop. I thought that anything I could get my hands on was fair game, because in the only reality I had ever known, anything about me that family members could get their hands on was fair game. I had never once in my life been exposed to the idea that if you do something personal, someone who happens to observe you might choose not to comment on it in order to protect your dignity. I had heard the expression "none of your businesses", but I had never once in my life seen it put into practice.

There are a significant number of parents out there who feel that good parenting means making a point of knowing absolutely everything that's going on with their children, and they often make a point of making sure that the children know that they know. We have know way of knowing if LW's family works that way, but, if it does, they could not have reasonably expected a 15-year-old to NOT snoop and share.
362
There's way more going on here with the 15 yr old than
catching her dad fucking around. You need an attorney the kid should be
charged with sexting the punishment could be counseling community service
and so on... Separately the dumbass should move out asap( yesterday). Give his wife
time weeks to figure her decision out an he take it
no questions. Yes there will
always be coulda woulda shoulda but he was extremely stupid
it will take 15-20yrs. so that most parties can put it in perspective and some
never will.
Two people did wrong and they should each face the music. I don't think
the mom will not have the guts to do the right thing and the
daughter will work it because she already had problems
with 1 or both of her parents.
That's why teaching respect and privacy over and
over again can never be redundant in the digital world.
363
Ignoring all the other issues, and just focusing on the specific question:

Looking at someone else's email is wrong, and the daughter should be punished. But both the LW and his wife are biased in determining the punishment. So, the obvious solution is to find a neutral third party, and have the third party decide what the punishment will be, and agree to stick to it.
364
Dear FUBARD:

Even before this incident, suppose your daughter wanted to get married, or deliberately become pregnant, or get a tubal, or get a tattoo.

Your response would probably be that she isn't old enough. If pressed to articulate why, you'd probably say something along the lines of her brain isn't fully developed yet so she's inclined to react impulsively, and/or she can't grok the long-term consequences, and/or she isn't seeing the broader picture because she lacks a breadth of life experience.

Reacting optimally to adultery is a very advanced skill, emotionally. So your 15-year-old doesn't have that skill yet. (Do we really want to live in a world that requires 15-year-olds to have that skill?) That's because her brain isn't fully developed yet so she's inclined to react impulsively, she can't grok the long-term consequences, and she isn't seeing the broader picture because she lacks a breadth of life experience.

Punishing her for not handling this well would be like punishing a toddler for spilling milk. While it's not the most ideal of all outcomes, it's par for the course for the age group and it's your responsibility as a parent to take this into account. It's your own fault if you give a toddler milk in a room that would be ruined if milk is spilled in it, and it's your own fault for leaving evidence of your affair right there where your daughter could stumble upon it.
365
He had a "discreet affair" to "presumably hold his marriage together"? Good God. He posted explicit photos on a communal family computer and his girlfriend posted stuff while she was on vacation with her family. Neither of them were discreet, and they weren't 15 like the daughter was. They are both worthless.

If the wife goes to family counseling with this guy, she's much stupider than he is. I'm sure their kids don't want this guy around anymore, nor does anyone else in either of their families.
366
On further thought, this has got to be a fake letter. Nobody could be this stupid.
367
Being an educator my responses tend to be on the reflective, restorative & empowering side. Being a person in almost the exact situation, but not outed, as the author, this is giving me an uneasy opportunity to reflect. So, as a teacher of middle school & high school students & a person in a somewhat open marriage here is what I think:

You need to find out information from her like; what happened? Why did she do what she did? Have her come up with restitution for what she did to your relationship with her. Since, what she did was to you & you want something from her (restitution.) Have her figure out what she can do to make up for her behavior. But let her know because you are a part of the relationship you get a say. Make it a dual effort, but make sure she knows you are the adult in charge. Due to your age difference & the guardian factor, you get the final say. In this situation she will realize, like most of us do, that sometimes we canโ€™t fix our mistakes.
Based on the answers, use them as a starting point, and as much as you may not want to see her side, you will be able to better understand & help her come up with a more effective restitution. If you canโ€™t speak to her in a positive & effective manner, which I donโ€™t think I could do, maybe get a mediator/counselor to help the two of you figure out what needs to happen. This restitution for the most part involves only you two. What you did is between you & your wife (that is not a discussion for her to make any decisions or comments on-when it comes to the restitution). The relationship between you & your daughter is the only one that should be addressed in the restitution. Yes, she is a family member but the root is still the relationship between you & her. The restitution for the other(s) relationships she has, sheโ€™ll need to figure that out with them, and accept if they are not up for that.

My personal thoughts:
I would almost make her stay. Since there is no way to make up for her mistake, no way to fix what she broke she should have to see & experience what her behavior did on others. You may not want her around but if you send her away she will never truly see, understand, or feel how destructive her behavior affected others. She canโ€™t fix this, she can only make sure she doesnโ€™t do it again. Sending her away almost seems like a cop out for her-send her away she will never see, feel or hear the pain, of all of those she decided to bring into her life/behavior when she acted. Also her being around you, as much as you donโ€™t want that, she will be able to use you as a role model in how you deal with your restitution with your wife. (She is not involved between the two of you & there for you need not share details or talk about it with her but -modeling might be another way for her to learn from this.) Seeing your behavior & what you are going through will be a learning experience & kind of be restitution in itself. She will get to see you deal with your behavior. Everyone has relationships that they have, based on many different interests. And all relationships are defined differently and can only be defined by those involved. She doesnโ€™t get to judge your marriage, she is not a part of the marriage relationship. We all do things & no matter good or bad we have to deal with the decisions we make, her seeing you do that, shows her that no matter who you are you have to deal with the decisions you make good & bad.

I canโ€™t imagine how difficult this has been for you & to see the effects on your loved ones. If you two canโ€™t come up with something or youโ€™re not ready for that yet, send her away & when you are bring her back so she can than have an opportunity for some kind of restitution, between your two. And in the future hopefully with the others she hurt.
Donโ€™t forget she hurt you in the relationship you two have. You probably hurt your wife in your relationship with her. But these are two different situations that need to be dealt with separately & with only those involved. Donโ€™t let her or your wife bleed the two together.

I hope you found this helpful. Take or leave whatever you like. Know I will be thinking of you.

Sincerely,

Relationship like yours
368
@359.

Calm the fuck down. FUBAR's sex life is FUCKING NONE of his daughter's business.

And you're a horny little troll.
369
Give the girl a medal.

Her world was brutally rocked. Then, unable to cope with the shock, and in a direct plea for justice, she chose to share the dreaded information and reach out to all involved and affected parties.

Blame her for ruining everyone's lives? Please, they were already ruined. It's just that nobody else knew it yet.

370
The comments puzzel me. Would it have been better if he just divorced his wife for not putting out and ran off with someone else, maybe tossing a child support check in the mail everyone in a while?

371
@369

1: Her father's sex life is none of her business.
2: She maliciously distributed this info to EVERYONE she knew. (She did not just "reach out to all affected parties" as you claim. She emailed private pictures to EVERYONE. To people who had no stake in the affair.) She should have just gone to her mother. She didn't have to destroy the entire neighborhood.
3:Nobody's life was ruined until she stepped in. A three year affair is pretty fucking discreet. The affair was probably keeping both sexless marriages alive.
372
@369: "Blame her for ruining everyone's lives? Please, they were already ruined. It's just that nobody else knew it yet."

I have mixed feelings about this. The affair may well have been allowing both marriages to continue in a state of reasonable domestic bliss. (Considering its three year duration, that's a pretty good guess.) Contrast that with blowing it wide open, which pretty much destroyed any possibility of preserving either marriage or happiness for anybody concerned. (Not to mention the "mutual friends" who now find themselves dragged into something that is so, so, none of their business.)

After having been a 50-yard-line spectator on the messy, acrimonious divorces of a number of friends, I have to say that anybody who maintains that it's more noble to end it with the spouse due to libido incompatibilities than to maintain the marriage but get those needs discreetly met elsewhere, has no idea what a divorce really entails, in terms of the sheer magnitude fucking up the domestic situation for everybody.
373
He ought to just get the hell outta there. Go f his gf and let the daughter deal with the consequences of her actions.
374
@371

1. It is when he's a CPOS
2. If he hadn't been a CPOS, she would have had nothing to distribute, "destroying the whole neighborhood" (really?)
3. "As long as nobody knows, it's all ok!"
375

Take responsibility for your actions and work on living your life with integrity, and hope your daughter learns from your example and thinks about what she has done.

If you make your amends and clean up your mess, maybe you will teach her how to do the same.
376
At 18 years of age one is considered a legal adult and responsible for their own actions. 18 is only three years older than this girl, so to all of the commenters calling her "an innocent child", you perhaps need to remember what you were actually like at 15. Doing something very bad in response to someone else doing something bad really doesn't work in society, and at 15 you do know that. It's not like this child is six, and still figuring out morality. I mean, christ, life is all about massive disappointments, and she needs to learn that you can't just fuck shit up because you are hurt and angry. And it's probably for the best that she learn this before she can be held legally responsible for behavior like that....

That being said, FUBAR D should not ground her for the summer/send her to live with her grandparents, that is just ridiculous and clearly motivated by anger, also. FUBAR D does have a right to an opinion of punishment, that should not be the wife's sole decision, just 'cause he fucked up doesn't mean he has to turn in his 'parent card', but I think that the punishment should be a serious talk, between the dad and the daughter, about what he did, and why it was so shitty, and about what she did, and why it was wrong, too. And group therapy, stat.
377
@374

Like I said, the father's sex life is none of his daughter's business. He didn't make any sexual commitment to her.

AND the affair was probably keeping both sexless marriages alive.

Although he is partly responsible for raising such a malicious daughter...
378
Being able to maintain this affair for 3 years, you'd think you'd be wiser than to put yourself in such a position. But we're not supposed to talk about the stupidity of using a family computer to send sexual chats and photos to your lover. However, as to the point of this letter, I think it's ridiculous to even be thinking about punishing the daughter at this time when there are a lot more crucial things to consider. Like what you're going to do about your marriage and the damage to your (and the other woman's) reputations that may have resulted from what your daughter did. Obviously what she did was wrong and stupid and 15 is an age of stupidity but that doesn't excuse her behavior. I still find it ridiculous that out of all the shit that seems to be happening, the biggest question is how to punish the daughter. It seems like a very immature reaction and it also seems like this asshole is just trying to get revenge and cover up the fact that he was stupid enough to get caught. Hopefully you will learn from this experience and learn the meaning of the word discreet so that you don't get caught next time. Good luck.

p.s. if you're going to keep up this behavior of having sex chats with your lover (assuming your wife doesn't leave you), it might be a good idea to get your own computer (maybe a small laptop) and password protect it (like I do with mine; as soon as I leave the room, I just shut the lid and if my husband opens it, it asks for a password. therefore, he would never be in the position to read my emails.). Just an idea. I have no problem with cheating. I just have a problem with stupidity and people's inability to take responsibility for their own actions.
379
There are enough other places on the internet where CPOS can offer each other advice about how to be better at being CPOS (LOL SEXTING YOU AMATEUR JEEZ GUY GET IT TOGETHER AND LEARN HOW TO CHEAT LIKE A PRO!) There they can justify to themselves and each other why it's OK that they're all CPOS in one gigantic circle jerk.

I just sort of expected better here.
380
@378 If my wife did that with her laptop I would first ask for her password. If she refused I would ask her why. I would then install a key logger in her laptop. I can not think of a bigger red flag than what you are doing. I'd also hire a PI to among other things put gps trackers in your laptop, cell phone, car, anything that you keep on your person. There are many ways around a password or even an encrypted hard drive. A credit report will show all of your credit cards. Having to account for your time and the mileage on your car can be a problem. Calling you at work to make sure of whereabouts, if necessary telling them that it is an emergency. Showing up at your job unexpectedly. Having friends, relatives, coworkers cover for you gives them power over you. A secret can only be kept if you are the only one who knows it. Hopefully there is no physical evidence on your body (bruises, welts, scratches, bite marks). No smoking, no perfume, no cologne, no aftershave. No one who is allergic no peanuts. The need for constant vigilance can really put a damper on things. Then there are the same things for your lover(s). Hope you never anger them. Anonymous sex has its own set of concerns. So have fun and hope no one ever gets suspicious. As I said, password protecting your personal computer is a giant red flag. Using a work or public computer have their own problems. Needless to say I have given cheating some serious thought. All you have to do is to be caught in one lie for your credibility to be questioned.
381
@376 You obviously have no idea how vile and vindictive girls and women can be. There are multiple examples of girls and women using the web and social networking sites to attack someone. A lot of women never forgive and never forget. Not a general statement, but I seen and experienced it often enough.
382
@380 Geez, a skeptic and a cynic, you have given cheating some serious thought. If you have an open, trusting relationship, however, it's really not that hard to get away with it for a while. I trusted my husband, so I wasn't hiring PIs to follow him or checking his cash expenditures for unusual expenses. The problem is that eventually you give yourself away, because you love your partner and it's hard to live a lie. Or, anyway, that's what happened with us. He fumbled an answer to a question about what was on his mind... because he was tired of keeping up a false front with his wife. When pressed, he decided to trust me instead, and 'fessed up. We're okay now, and have opened our marriage, after some painful (but necessary) conversations. Now he can carry condoms without worrying about them being found -- much better situation all around.
383
@380 - also, what does being allergic to peanuts have to do with cheating on your partner?
384
To LW: your daughter doesn't need your help to realize that actions have consequences. What she does need to do is cool down in order to realize that her actions had consequences. So don' t do something crazy that is going to give her something to get riled up against.

To all the posters who have mentioned his lack of moral high ground: do you really think that teenagers think their parents own the moral high ground? She's 15. Managing her behavior is the best the LW can expect to do under normal circumstances.
385
@381. I'm a woman in my early 20's. That means I'm fairly knowledgeable on the behavior of women and girls, having been raised by a single mother with one sibling, a sister, but I also had internet since early adolescence and have managed to keep my innate vile-ness and vindictive nature in check when using social media. You should give it a try, sometime.
386
It really makes a difference in the time frame. If your daughter was reacting because she was furious that in the moment she had found something life shattering, it explains her behavior as acting out- and she probably really regrets the rashness of her decision and the explosion it caused. If she built this up over weeks and coolly and calmly decided to let you have it I'd be more worried about her ability to empathise. People shouldn't snoop, (but they do) and people should think about the consequences of their actions- but these are really the consequences of your actions-your affair-your not logging out when you have teenagers in the house.
If-and it sounds like this might be the case- you're a class A hypocrite and your daughter's reaction is compounded by the monumental fall from grace you just made...well.
I think her Mom should decide what's appropriate as punishment.
387
I stopped at comment 214, so if this has been said, sorry. FUBARD has already admitted that his wife AGREES that the daughter deserves some consequences for her actions. He says that his wife wants his daughter to serve some kind of community service. Since most people are troubled by her lack of empathy,this seems to me to be a valid consequence. By providing community service, the daughter gets to interact with other people, see people who may be worse off than she is and learn some more empathy.

FUBAR however does not think that this is enough. His daughter ruined his cushy little life. He may lose the wifey who cleans his home, cooks his dinner and may or may not have sex with him occasionally. His mistress (his OBVIOUS PRIORITY), has been humiliated and may lose the husband who is (presumably) contributing to the support of their family and may lose the respect and love of her children. FUBAR wants his daughter banished to her grandparents (gee, I wonder which side of the family he wants her banished to?) , so that he can "repair" his marriage without the interference of the little brat who blew his life to smithereens. Maybe with her gone, he can wrap his wife around his little finger again, but if she is there his daughter will push his wife into actually asking for him to DO something to rectify his betrayals.

FUBAR has lost the right to punish his daughter and his suggestions reek of revenge, not of trying to teach his daughter better behavior. Leave the consequences to your wife and be prepared to pay for lots of therapy for your daughter. Whether her actions were based on trauma or a personality disorder, she needs help and if you are any kind of a father you will provide it. Sadly, your letter indicates that you are a vindictive bastard who doesn't give 2 hoots about how your daughter or anyone else in your family feels, as long as YOU get what you want.
388
Children should have absolutely no say in their parent's sex lives. PERIOD. This teen and her friend ACTIVELY solicited information after coming upon an email account that wasn't either of theirs. The prudent and thoughtful thing to do in that situation is close up the account and remind the owner to be more careful. However, human nature being what it is...she snooped. But she didn't stop there she posed as the email account owner and took an active role obtaining more and more information. Any "trauma" she may have suffered was due to her own course of action. She then acted in a completely unethical and destructive manner by forwarding the illicitly obtained information to completely innocent parties. I can't imagine that the children, friends or parents of the adulterers wanted to receive the pictures etc forced on them by this nasty hateful act.

Just imagine if you left your computer unattended at work and a coworker acted in a similar fashion. Exposing some private and maybe embarrassing truth to the entire office (as well as your family and friends). There would be serious repercussions from such an act. With the snooper likely losing their job and possibly facing legal action. When you look at it that way it is obvious that for her own protection from doing something like this in the future this teen needs to see the results of her poor choices and thoughtlessness.

She needs to apologize to the "collateral damage" that she caused. Not just say sorry but actually articulate to her victims that she understands how damaging her actions were and then make amends in an effort to repair the damage. That will vary from individual to individual. It won't be quick but it will be a lesson she won't ever forget and should help guide her the next time something similar presents itself.

Don't ask questions you don't want to hear the answer to and don't read private emails (or diaries) if you can't handle what you learn
389
@388

Booya. Unfortunately everyone on this forum thinks children have a right to know intimate details of their parents' sex lives.

These people must not be familiar with the work of Dan Savage.
390
I discovered my husband's affair with a "close family friend" via a careless email and I went BAT SHIT CRAZY with betrayal, grief and rage for weeks!! I was out of my mind, doing and saying things I had never done before- or since. I was an adult and didn't "handle it well" to say the least! Have some freaking empathy for the poor kid!!
391
@390

Against my better judgment I do have a bit of empathy for that malicious daughter.

HOWever, her father's sex life is none of her business. For many reasons, not the least of which is the she does not know about any arrangements that her parents *may* have made regarding outside sexual contact. Imagine if the father wasn't cheating, but was banging his GF with his wife's blessing (remember: the daughter had no way of knowing whether mom was aware of the GF). Then his daughter starts poking into their business and drags the entire city into a private affair.

It's none of her business itsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessitsnoneofherbusinessITSNONEOFHERGODDAMMMMMOTHERFUCKINGBUSINESS
392
It's made perfectly clear in the letter that the husband and wife did not have any sort of "arrangement" or open marriage and that the wife was not aware her husband was shagging her friend. I have to wonder about the people who seem so obsessed with defending infidelity as a wonderful heroic act men selflessly do to "save their marriages" that they have to invent fictitious scenarios that obviously do not apply to the case in hand.

Bleating "his sex life is none of his daughter's business" to excuse parents of children (remember she was TWELVE when this started) who choose to live double lives and rip their families apart is nonsense. Of course a parent's personal life affects their children! How on earth can it not? Are you saying if a couple get divorced, the fact that they're divorced is none of their childrens' business and therefore the children should not be allowed an opinion or feelings about it? Or if a parent gets remarried, again the kids should just say, "none of my business" and leave it at that? Have you people never actually HAD a relationship or a family, ever? Have you ever spoken to a live human being before?? Anything that goes on in YOUR FAMILY is YOUR BUSINESS.

I grew up with a mother who was a prostitute and exposed me to explicit sex, many times I was forced to watch my mother and random men have sex and to clean up after them. Gee, I (and the law courts) seem to think that was abuse. Guess I better go call the judge and inform him he was wrong and that actually I simply should have "minded my own business."
393
@392 With respect, I think that FUBAR's situation as well as my comments are a little more nuanced than you admit. I also think you've mischaracterized some of my statements.

1: It is indeed perfectly clear that FUBAR does not have an open relationship (which, obviously, was his first problem. His marriage is still more proof that monogamy does not work. And we can't be sure that his wife has never cheated on him either). I do not define infidelity as a "wonderful heroic act to save a marriage." However, I recognize that sometimes it is NECESSARY because sexual satisfaction is very important. I suggest you listen to Dan Savage's opinions on monogamy and cheating because they are stellar.

2: By "inventing fictitious scenarios" I was pointing out just how fucked up his daughter's reaction was. His daughter had no way of knowing whether the affair was sanctioned by mom or not. But she decided, basically, to nuke the entire city they live in.

3: I say that his sex life is none of his daughter's business because HIS SEX LIFE IS FUCKING NONE OF HIS DAUGHTER'S BUSINESS. See post 264 for a great list of things that children need to know about their parent's sex lives. I suggest we adopt that as Holy Fucking Writ.

4: Okay so you grew up watching your mom fuck her clients. That doesn't invalidate my 3rd point. In fact, it AMPLIFIES it. Your mom's sex life was none of your business and she was acting extremely irresponsibly. She clearly thought that her sex life was your business. SHE was wrong, not me.

If you are so "saddened by this board" you should perhaps read more of the comments. Most of the people here agree with your opinions. There are about 20 comments here out of 400 that agree with me.
394
377 etc, plz do not feed teh trolls--
how do you know that the father of this girl hasn't portrayed his relationship with her mother as exclusive? how do you have any idea what the parents of this girl have taught her about how a husband and wife are supposed to behave?
if they have taught her that marriage is monogamous and exclusive and all about being "faithful," then they HAVE made a very strong promise to their daughter to act that way and they've built up a mountain of expectations. If they have done this, then yes indeedy her father has broken her trust and it is totally daughter's business if a chat pops up on her computer screen.

Now, if they have taught her that a marriage is NOT a monogamous partnership, then no trust broken and maybe you got a point there. but i doubt it.
395
It's absurd to say that her father's sex life is none of her business. She didn't spy on him or go through his personal drawers looking for his stash of porn; she had her father's sex life thrust in her face by his mistress. Only then did she deceive the other woman in order to get conclusive evidence, which is understandable as otherwise her father would undoubtedly have denied the affair til the end of time.

The poor girl is the VICTIM here people! Yes, her actions were not well thought out, but the answer to that is to get her massive amounts of therapy to help her heal from this trauma. Judgment from the father who destroyed her family is exactly what she does not need right now.
396
Plz do not feed teh trolls, I am well aware of the issues and beliefs of which you speak. My background is in anthropology and gender/sex studies, and I practice polyamory. I understand the significance of cultural values in sexuality and how it's perceived. If this man had chosen to reject the social constraints around monogamous I'd be the first person to congratulate him. But he didn't. He entered into a monogamous marriage, raised a child within a monogamous marriage, and chose to enter into a double life which when revealed devastated his family.

The most important element of being poly/open is honesty. I know people raising children within poly relationships and it works fine. (Not to mention so many kids are raised with step-familes and half-siblings, bio and social parents. Kids are very adaptable.) But the children are kept informed (in an age-appropriate way) as to the basics of what's going on within their own family and household. The parents don't pretend to the kids to be monogamous, that would be a disaster waiting to happen. The whole thing about secrecy/honesty/privacy reminds me of the arguments homophobes use against gay marriage: "we don't mind gays just don't shove it in our faces." We simply do not live in a society where pair-bonding and especially marriage are considered private. How can a child's parents' marital/relationship status be considered none of that child's business? It's a parent's job to teach a child about these things. I don't think there's anything presumptive in the daughter not considering the possibility her parents were secretly poly. Of course a child doesn't need or have the right to know everything. Flings and one-nighters happen and it's often for the best to keep them secret. But a secret three-year affair is very different, and it didn't seem like he had any intention of ever ending it. He had a significant longterm relationship with another woman, not just sexual release. That kind of double life couldn't continue indefinitely, it was going to come out sooner or later, and there's no way for that to happen without causing pain and destruction all round.

If two people are truly sexually mismatched and unhappily married, then that's very sad (though I still think all the horny guys claiming their wives are frigid and they're forced to sleep with other women to "save the marriage" are just jerks and their wives would tell a very different story). Personally I think it's awful that so many people are pressured by societal/religious norms and expectations into commitments they do not want or are unprepared for. I consider myself very fortunate that I had/have the freedom to be poly, to be queer, to not marry, to have premarital sex, to help raise my lover's child from another woman, without pressure or judgement. But he made his choice and being unhappy with that choice doesn't mean it's okay to cheat and lie and destroy your wife and child because a man's need to get off trumps everything else.
397
It partially depends on the age of the woman's children. I am fairly sure that deliberately exposing minors to pornography is a variation of breaking child pornography laws. Your daughter and her friend, and only your daughter and her friend are the people in this scenario who deliberately exposed minors to pornography (and worse in that it was porn of a parent). She needs to be sat down and informed that what she did was not just rude and not okay, but outright illegal and something that could land her in jail and something she must never, ever do again.

As to punishment, there should definitely be family therapy. I do not feel that the father needs to recuse himself though, since I do not feel that having done something wrong makes you incapable of parenting. If everyone who did something wrong refused to attempt to administer any justice, then we would all have to give up on ever trying murderers and rapist, because everyone has done something wrong. What the father has done wrong is one thing, and it must be dealt with. But it is irrelevant when deciding how to deal with the child, and that the father made a mistake is no reason to give up on parenting a child.

Community service and research into privacy rights and why privacy matters would be appropriate She should have to think about what it would be like to have her privacy violated and learn about the massive harm that would happen if you allow privacy violations. Understanding the concept of throwing out legal testimony that is "fruit of a forbidden tree" would be appropriate, and that if you do not it encourages law enforcement to abuse the public and that that is worse than letting guilty people go now and then. And thinking about all the innocents who were unnecessarily harmed by her thoughtless and cruel action.
398
Most of the comments in this thread are completely leotarded, focusing on the father's actions and celebrating the fact that he suffered consequences for them, elevating the daughter to the status of avenging hero for being the one to bring these consequences about. Take him out of the picture and look at the situation objectively. If she had stumbled across a stranger's Gmail account left open, found something incriminating and then sent the information to that person's family and hurt numerous people in the process, would you all say there should be no punishment?

What the cheaters did was selfish and careless but what the daughter did was cruel because she did it knowing full well that it would inflict the same trauma she experienced on the children of her father's mistress. Yes, the cheaters created the situation but it was the daughter's actions that forced these kids to learn about it, something that might never have happened otherwise. After all, the cheaters kept it quiet for a long time before this. Being the victim of her father's selfishness and irresponsibility doesn't excuse what she did. This girl needs to be punished.
399
I'm not going to judge the guy for having an affair. I've been guilty of equally asshole behavior. Regardless of why someone has an affair, they're always a risk that someone gets hurt. The justifications we tell ourselves are little comfort to those around us.

I also don't think the daughter is a cruel, psycho-bitch. She may have reacted impulisvely, out of hurt and a sense of justice. We can only really speculate as to her state of mind and what she might be feeling now.

To the dad, please don't punish your daughter over this. Certainly what she did was wrong and hurtful. However, this is something that ought to be discussed and worked through. Punishment in this situation is simply not appropriate.

I would be more concerned about the future and mental health of your family than an appropriate punishment. If your worried about the way your daughter handled this situation, enroll her in a DBT program which will give her better coping skills.

I have to agree with other commenters who speculate your motivated more by revenge than making things right. I don't think you and your girlfriend deserved what happened, but I think you're deflecting responsibility away from yourself and onto your daughter.
400
Wouldn't using community service as punishment create an aversion for performing community service in the future? As a society, we want to encourage reaching out to help the community, not associate it with negative behavior.
401
Holy shit! Dan is right as usual, holy shit!

Here's how I see it. You have two problems that are confounding each other here FUBAR. Problem 1: your infidelity, problem 2: your daughter's behaviour.

Before even thinking about punishment you need to completely own your transgression. Are you staying with your wife, moving out, dedicating yourself to helping your girlfriend through the damage this has caused her? Bottom line is there's damage all over the map and you need to fully accept your role and figure out what course you chart forward.

When you do that you'll be able to talk to your daughter about what she did as and adult with both feet firmly on the ground.

As for the daughter, punishment us almost a secondary point. The isse isn't that she invaded your privacy etc (you left the goods their to be found). The issue was that she toon a holier than though attitude and reacted to her own outrage (and power drive) to cause exponential harm to everyone around - whether directly involved or not. According to Berne she's pulling the trigger on a game of "noe I got you, you son of a bitch", and you are the son of a bitch in the game.

The point your daughter needs to see is there was a lot of ways to react to this and she chose the most self centers and damaging one possible - to everyone, you, wife, gf, her husband, her children, and herself.

She found the goods. She could have confronted you, she could have confronted your wife, anything else is reckless self indulgence. She had no right to drag innocent people outside of her family into this. And she shoulders a huge chunk of the blame for the harm that was caused. But you need to deal with yours before you can confront her on hers.
402
Holy shit! Dan is right as usual, holy shit!

Here's how I see it. You have two problems that are confounding each other here FUBAR. Problem 1: your infidelity, problem 2: your daughter's behaviour.

Before even thinking about punishment you need to completely own your transgression. Are you staying with your wife, moving out, dedicating yourself to helping your girlfriend through the damage this has caused her? Bottom line is there's damage all over the map and you need to fully accept your role and figure out what course you chart forward.

When you do that you'll be able to talk to your daughter about what she did as and adult with both feet firmly on the ground.

As for the daughter, punishment us almost a secondary point. The isse isn't that she invaded your privacy etc (you left the goods their to be found). The issue was that she toon a holier than though attitude and reacted to her own outrage (and power drive) to cause exponential harm to everyone around - whether directly involved or not. According to Berne she's pulling the trigger on a game of "noe I got you, you son of a bitch", and you are the son of a bitch in the game.

The point your daughter needs to see is there was a lot of ways to react to this and she chose the most self centers and damaging one possible - to everyone, you, wife, gf, her husband, her children, and herself.

She found the goods. She could have confronted you, she could have confronted your wife, anything else is reckless self indulgence. She had no right to drag innocent people outside of her family into this. And she shoulders a huge chunk of the blame for the harm that was caused. But you need to deal with yours before you can confront her on hers.
403
I would point out that the girl is a child of one of the cheating couple, and may well have sent pictures to the children of the other cheater out of less culpable motives (teenagers not much liking being lied to); she probably figured that her dad had been deceiving her all this time and was hurt by that, figuring that it was only chance carelessness that allowed her to find this out. She might, therefore, think that the OTHER families' kids deserved to know, as well - as in, they genuinely ought to have access to the truth that she found. I agree that there's a whole lot of bad decision-making going on, but nonetheless I don't think her motivations here have to be bad, assuming the kids are around her age (since she probably doesn't think she's too young to understand this, she wouldn't think they are). And given that she had all these peoples' email addresses at hand, I'm guessing that they've all seen you and your girlfriend together in a social situation pretending to be friends and that she therefore sees this deception as a public one in that respect.

As to the level of a spouse's sex drive: usually the best way to deal with that is to talk about it. Secondarily, I would say that - absent physical problems - women tend to feel sexier when they are not exhausted, and to feel closer to their partners if they are helping them out (thus demonstrating respect for the women's contributions to the household). Best way to avoid an affair? Housework and help with the kids. That way you'll both be the same tired, and the same sexy.
404
@380: You consider personal privacy a red flag? Everyone needs personal privacy. A locked computer and private email account should be normal. It's kind of scary that you would invade your wife's privacy by putting a key logger on her computer... isn't that worse than cheating?

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