He did it. Super thoughtless. Grr...

Speaking of Full Disclosure;
Danny....
Why is your position on legalizing polygamy such a secret?

What a fucking doofus.

In fact, that particular podcast should be required listening for EVERY SINGLE SEXUALLY ACTIVE PERSON IN THE WORLD.

[.] http://www.davidwygant.com/blog/wp-conte…

You're really obsessive, period troll. Maybe you need to get yourself some thorazine.

Judging by the wording of his letter, on meds, no outbreaks for a long time, I think he didn't disclose.

9

Enquiring Minds want to know.....

@10
I was thinking the same thing. He was rationalizing his culpability even as he was explaining the situation.

Dan, you spend a lot of time minimizing the effects of herpes (rightly enough). I've heard so much more from you about how herpes is an acceptable risk than about how disclosure is the expected standard of behavior that I could imagine a person getting the impression that non-disclosure is wrong on approximately the level of leaving the toilet seat up. Maybe even that, since so many people don't even know they have it and it's no big deal (well, not a big deal to a luckier majority of people), you're only required to not lie in response to a direct question.

Yes he should disclose, but I'm tired of people acting like herpes is the mark of the beast. CDC says approx. 60% of the US population has Herpes Type 1 (oral). 20% has Herpes Type 2 (genital). So about 4/5 people reading this have herpes. It's probably best to assume that the person you're sleeping with has herpes. It's probably best to assume you have it too.

I mean, yes, that's the "right" answer, but it's understandable that someone wouldn't disclose because of all the hysteria around it. Disclosure is the right thing to do, but realistically, a lot of people are not going to, since most people have it, it's not a huge deal, and a lot of people freak out at just the word.

I DTMFA'ed a lover who, in a poly situation, neglected to mention that he was having unprotected sex with someone with herpes, using condoms only when she had an active outbreak -- which was pretty often. I consider myself extremely lucky that (after repeated tests at lengthy intervals) I am not infected.

@14

That's some fantastic detective work there, Lou.

Have you ever considered that, perhaps, people infected with one type of Herpes are still susceptible to infection by a second?

Never share straws; always drink copious amounts of liquor.

More to the point, the vast majority of those infected with Herpes never show any symptoms. I am not sure how contagious they are; that said, I don't know a whole lot of fucking people who show sores on their face.

This man knew he had Herpes and from a totally unforgivable ignorance (probably) readily passed on his disease to someone else.

Dan, do you support the right of trolls to marry?

Do you think most people with herpes disclose to potential partners, or do most of them hide it?

I can't believe that someone who has been on meds for years doesn't already know the answer to these questions. Who takes meds for years and doesn't ask or research everything about their condition? Way to be proactive about your own health and the safety of your sex partners.

@20 - most people with herpes don't know they have it, and are not in a position to "disclose" what they don't know.

All I'm gonna say is that if you have Herpes and have sex with me and don't voluntarily disclose it beforehand, you're gonna wish you had. 'Nuff said.

How could she have accused him of passing on the virus if she didn't know he had it? Think, people.

I'm guessing she knew he had it and got pissed she drew the short straw. But if he didn't disclose (BAD KARMA, YOU WILL ROT IN THE SYPHILIS LAYER OF HELL) then he should.

Listen to @23. The man has guns.

And knives. Don't forget them. I've never figured out why, but a lot of people get much more freaked-out by the knives than the guns.

@26: I prefer to settle things with a gold old fashioned chainsaw fight.

@27 - an old-fashioned gold chainsaw? You don't see many of those anymore....

Carve new friends, but freeze the old... one is silver and the other's gold.

@7 ... assuming they can hear...

@24 or maybe he was the only other person she was fucking. not sure it's 100% clear whether he told her beforehand, really.

Anyway, the real thing is that up to 90% of ppl with herpes (of either type) don't know they have it. I believe there's a blood test for it, so I'm not entirely clear why that's not part of, say pap smear/gynecology appts or whatever. (Possibly b/c it's not really life threatening or anything.)

@14 4/5 would be 80%, so you are assuming that you cant have both?
More importantly oral herpes is really quite unimportant, but genital herpes is the one you want to avoid, lumping them together like that is misleading. Therefore, only 20% of people have the type you want to avoid, and so you don't have to be so paranoid about it or assume everyone has it. They are two different strains, you can't give someone genital herpes if you have oral herpes (or very rarely) .

Actually Dan I think you have it wrong. It depends what type of herpes you have, if you have HSV-1 (oral) you will not transmit it during oral sex. HSV-2 is genital herpes, which you can sometimes get orally, and is transmitted during sex. It sounds like the LW has HSV-2. Obviously you should always check what you have, and what your risks are with your doctor...

Wow, disregard my last statement. Google suggests my high school biology class was very wrong.

@8 Canuck, I love you.

"Hoo-ha?" That's just wrong for so many reasons.

Come on, Danny-

what are you afraid of?

Do you support legalizing polygamy?

(@36- you might want to get a new doctor...)

Two great resources ~ my, how knowledge has grown:

american social health association
http://www.ashastd.org/herpes/herpes_lea…

pubmed
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth…

@36 You're right that people with one type of HSV rarely get the other. The two types are so genetically similar that having one type almost acts as a vaccine against the other. But yeah, you can get HSV-1 from oral sex. 30% of genital herpes in the US are HSV-1.

I just went over this at the health clinic I work at. Here's the deal: a blood test for herpes is useless. A positive result does not mean you HAVE herpes. It means you've been exposed to herpes at one time or another. Your immune system recognized it and created antibodies - which is what the test picks up. You can, and usually do, have the antibodies without having the virus itself. Just like your body mskes abtibodies to a bunch of colds you never catch, bacteria that never latches on, etc. 80% of people will test positive on the blood test for the antibodies, but since that doesn't tell you if you will ever have the virus itself, it's not a meaningful test. Testing an active sore us the only way to actually test for the herpes virus. You have probably been exposed to many things and never caught them. This test just allows you to know that for certain, and freak out for no reason. I don't even think it specifies which type of herpes - 1 or 2, so you could be talking about being exposed to canker sores. For these reasons, my clinic, and many if not most others don't offer the blood test.

@38, 11, 4 I'm tired of seeing your post over and over again. What is YOUR opinion of polygamy? I know you didn't ask me, but here's mine. If we were speaking only hypothetically, I would say everyone should have the freedom to marry whoever they choose. Unfortunately, I also think that woman's freedom of choice is questionable to non-existent in most cultures where polygamy is the norm, and that those societies in general are fundamentally restrictive and authoritarian. I think laws against polygamy (and incest) protect women, especially young women and girls, from being coerced into relationships.

43

Thank You for your support, and comments.

You make some very good points.

We are asking about American laws.

Why do you suppose Danny, who is always blabbing on about poly this and poly that, and who is always ranting about marriage equality, won't take a position on legalizing polygamy in the US?

It is very curious, no?.....

It is clear from reading this letter the LW knowingly exposed this couple to herpes without telling them. Total fail.

Dan and others, I disagree that Herpes isn't a big deal. I don't judge people who have it. Trust me, there but for the grace of god go I. I was just as casual about intimacy as other red blooded college kids and could have easily picked up HSV 1 or 2 or worse.

I listened to your podcast. Obviously herpes isn't a death sentence, we shouldn't stigmitize it, etc. But according to your doctor guest, it can entail suppressive therapy, potentially acyclovir, unsightly outbreaks that can recur. This isn't catching the common cold.

If you have it and know you do, you absolutely have an affirmative duty to disclose your status to romantic partners. You shouldn't have to be asked point blank.

@42 while I am clearly woefully ignorant about the transmission of herpes, I do know a thing or too about it's biology. It is actually fascinating. When herpes virus establishes itself it migrates to a neuron where it exists silently as circular rings of RNA in the cytoplasm. Obviously your immune system does not want to attack your neuron, so It can then exist there for as long as it wants, silently. At some point, often stress or illness induced, it can start reproducing itself and budding off from the neuron to move to the sites of transmission. So you are not infective all the time, but you don't have to show symptoms to be infective. I think this is why the blood test is so difficult, there is no immune response when the herpes is silent, so it is impossible to tell the difference via blood test between a person who cleared the infection or someone who has it silently within them. Very few other viruses can maintain a longterm infection, HIV being the other main example, and white blood cells are much more accessible then neurons. Bacterial infections tending to be at least partially extracellular, so much easier to detect. I guess my point is that at least the blood test gives some indication of if you could be a carrier, and so need to be more careful. How else can we control it?

Comments 27-29 just cracked my ass up.

I've had Herpes I since I was a child. I had Herpes II for 15 YEARS before I happened to have a sore while visiting my Dr, so he could scrape and send in.
I have had both canker sores and type II outbreaks from time to time, so they are not mutually exclusive.
The reason folks don't disclose is that Herpes, like HPV, is everywhere on everyone, and we *are* told by Dan and others that 'it's no big deal'.
I suggest that if you don't want to catch Herpes, don't have sex with another human being. If you don't want to risk a car crash, don't go on the streets.

@Adam_west

The virus lives only in the neurons that connect to the site of infection (i.e. oral infections live in the cervical nerves, genital in the sacral nerves, etc). So finding out that you have antibodies, and possibly the virus, still doesn't tell you where the infection may be, which would dictate what safety precautions to take.

So basically, a negative HSV test is conclusive. A positive HSV test doesn't tell you anything useful. Rather than send people into a tizzy over incomplete information about a chronic and socially-maligned condition, most providers just don't do an HSV blood test unless it's requested.

@24 "How could she have accused him of passing on the virus if she didn't know he had it?"

Because she & her husband had tested negative before they slept with this douche, and now she has sores. She calls the douche to let him know, because that's the responsible thing to do, and he says, "oh, don't worry, I already had herpes." And then she's like, WHAT?! And you didn't tell us?? She should have asked, but apparently she didn't, and he didn't volunteer the information. Of the people I've asked, about half said yes, they had it. Only a couple of people in my life have ever volunteered that they had herpes, before I raised the topic.

(My husband and I both tested negative for HSV 1 & 2, this fall, and yes, we had to insist on the tests. Since we were asymptomatic, the doctor didn't want to run a test, even though we said we were no longer monogamous.)

@42, to echo you...I think the blood test is pretty useless too and I know my gyno doesn't do it as a routine test unless explicitly asked to do so. My bf and I went through a big rigamarole with the whole thing and it turned out that neither of us had it. This was a couple years ago so not sure if the technology has progressed but my overall sense after doing a lot of research was that the test is unreliable and open to liberal interpretation. Of course, I am not saying that my experience is typical but at the same time it definitely didn't sound atypical either.

@ 34, what did Google say, because I thought what you wrote was spot on?

@ 36, actually I could swear that I read somewhere that both herpes and HPV infections are to blame for cervical cancer - so it's not that small a deal either.

@ 41, I've read that too, somewhere.

I must say I don't understand how could most people who have herpes not know that they have it. I know that some people are asymptomatic carriers, but they are very few, most people have at least one flare up soon after the infection. Everyone who's had a cold sore knows that they've had a cold sore (tho they might not know it's herpes), and everyone who's had a lesion on their junk should know if it was herpes (because they would have it checked out, right? RIGHT?)

And yes, HSV 1 and 2 are pretty fascinating. 1 prefers face and 2 prefers genitals, so if by some accident 1 gets on your genitals and 2 gets on your mouth, the first flare up will be weak and probably won't repeat again. My experience with oral HSV 1 was pretty uneventful - got it very early in life, had "cold sores" that weren't terribly bothersome when I was sick and had weakened immune system, and I grew out of it by the time I was 18. That said, I did hear that oral HSV 1 is much milder and gives fewer flare ups than genital HSV 2 (generally speaking) so it may be misleading to lump them together - I've never heard of anyone taking acyclovir orally for oral herpes (and social kissing is a norm in my country, so probably about 99% of people I know have it), while it seems to be pretty standard therapy for genital herpes.

Yeah, I had an asshole doctor who didn't want to run the tests after I specifically asked for them ("why? you don't have any symptoms" "because I'm paying for the test, jackass, that's why") and then "forgot" to ask the lab for them until I called him to double check, because I knew he would "forget". I came back negative for both I and II. He is no longer my doctor.

@48: If herpes were everywhere and on everyone, it would be in part because of non-disclosing assholes like you.

It can suck to be one of the people who has it, I'm sure, and it doesn't make you a bad person as long as you make sure your partners know you have it. Many people have it and don't know, many people have it and don't consider it a major problem, but some people who have it DO have really debilitating outbreaks. It has not escaped my attention that the people who keep insisting "it's no big deal" are pretty much always people who already have it and have an obvious self-interest in propagating the notion that it's nothing to get upset about. Gee, I wonder why.

Well, I don't have it, I don't want to take the risk of getting a bad case of it, and I don't want to have to explain to partners for the rest of my life that it's just a skin disease and it *probably* won't lead to really painful oozing sores and it's really nothing to worry about, promise. If you have it, and it's as common as the Herpes Advocates keep claiming, then it shouldn't be a problem to stick to dating people you're compatible with, namely other people with herpes, right? Just like asexuals should date asexuals, and homosexuals should date homosexuals, and polys should date polys, and so on, right? So if you have it, and you don't disclose fully, and one of your partners gets it from you - don't be surprised if they're REALLY FUCKING ANGRY at your STUPID DISINGENUOUS NON-DISCLOSING LYING PIECE OF SHIT ASS. Yes, I'm talking to you, Letter Writer.

tiare (@52)...

So, do you disclose to new partners that you have HSV?

(not judging! A genuine question that speaks to the not-black-and-whiteness of this issue)

Chase @53...

And where do the roughly 90% of people who have genital herpes and don't know it fit into your equation?

@52: Herpes has not been linked to cervical cancer; that's HPV. Both HSV-1 and HSV-2 can infect the mouth and genitals (and the face, and the fingers, and anywhere else...). Either can be transferred from anywhere to anywhere else. And a lot of people don't know they have HSV because they are asymptomatic, or the symptoms are so minor that they don't notice. Not everyone has a huge flare up from the virus.

@42: Canker sores are not caused by HSV: I think you mean "cold sores," which is just a polite way of saying "herpes sores." You can indeed be tested for a particular subtype. Antibodies do mean that you have herpes, though you may be completely asymptomatic, and the tests can tell the difference between a recent vs. past infection. As you say, 80% of people will test positive, and that's because they do have the virus.

http://www.labtestsonline.org/understand…

Sorry, but this woman sounds like a nut case. She's involved in risky sexual behavior which carries along with it....wait for it....here it comes....RISK!

I don't believe that there's a unique DNA component to a herpes virus, so I don't think you can tell from whom it came. Unless this man is the only other person beside her husband to have had sex with her, then she's being pretty capricious claiming with any certainty that SAD gave it to her. It's just as likely, if not more so that she was exposed quite some time ago and just never knew it.

It's hard to tell from his letter if he told her before hand. But if there were no visible signs on his body then how did she know?

@55 - if they're going to have sex with people, they should get tested. If your potential partner doesn't know -- tell him or her to go get tested. Just as with HIV, right?

@57, see @50. "if there were no visible signs on his body then how did she know?" - probably because now she has herpes, and she only had sex with him (and her HSV-negative husband), since she was last tested. Plus, he HAS it, and didn't TELL her.

@ 54,

I didn't use to think that it was something to disclose (instead of shaking hands here you kiss people even if you've just met them, it would be surreal if everyone started disclosing their HSV 1 status prior to greeting, because probably everyone would be saying they have it), but it came up in a conversation with my American boyfriend before he was my boyfriend and I was shocked to learn that he didn't actually have it, so he accidentally got that info before any kissing took place and it turned out to be a good thing. So I guess it would be prudent to disclose to people from other cultures? I think there's virtually no social kissing in India or Japan for example, I am sure their HSV 1 rate is very low so one shouldn't assume that everyone everywhere has it. (Just like it would be funny and redundant to disclose it in France, you couldn't possibly do that without looking like a weirdo.)

@52 I guess it is what they used to think? it was certainly what I was taught. But it seems that both seem to be able to infect both, i have no idea.

@49 yes I know, I still think it is better then nothing. People should have a good enough understanding to not have a "tizzy", if the meaning of the results are explained to them. I find that kind of logic so patronising.

I find it really hard to believe that anyone would ever think it is ok not to tell a sex partner if they know they have herpes. If you have had outbreaks you know you have it, and you know you could infect people. I really don't think there is any ethical discussion to be had, it is clearly wrong.

@48 your logic is flawed. When I get into a car I know crashing is possible, but I still drive in a way to minimise it. sex is the same. If someone tells me they have herpes, I should understand it is not such a big deal, and that I have most likely already encountered it, but I should be informed of that risk and decide for myself. Then if I contract it I have to live with my choice.

@61: Almost no one discloses their exposure to herpes 3 and herpes 4, better known as chicken pox and mono. Almost no one discloses their exposure to the common cold. Yet you can infect someone with all those things. It's just a question of where you draw the line.

@ 62, you sure both make you infectious for life even though you're asymptomatic?

@63: Good point. Both mono and the common cold do have periods of asymptomatic infectiousness, but it looks like chicken pox doesn't.

@62 If someone knows they are coming down with a cold or flu, they should absolutely call off plans for sex. Or at least inform the other person and see if they want to continue. It's not a weird exercise in line-drawing. Either something is transmissible (in which case, disclose) or it's not transmissible.

@65: If you've ever had a cold or mono, you still have the virus, and it's possible to transmit it without having any symptoms. But almost no one discloses, because those viruses are very common and seen as minor. If it weren't for the stigma around herpes 1 and 2, herpes would be seen the same way.

Yikes, then how many cold viruses do we collect in our lifetime, if every winter we catch different strains and hold on to them :O

I'd hate to get mono, but at least you're supposed to become immune to it once you get it so it's for a good cause! No silver lining with herpes I'm afraid :/

@67: We collect a huge number of different viruses! Viruses can't be killed and will often lie dormant for a long time. That's why I'm saying that it's difficult to know what to disclose.

Mono is a type of herpes, and with any type of herpes, once you already have it you develop an immunity, though the virus you already have can flare up. Though it's true that HSV 1 and 2 are more likely to flare up again: I'm not sure if mono does very often.

@66 - are you saying people often get colds by kissing people who are harboring a cold virus from years before? I've never heard of that - care to provide some evidence of that?

@69: What I'm saying is that colds are sometimes asymptomatic.

"People with less active immune systems—about a quarter of adults—get infected with the viruses, but the relatively weak immunological response produces no significant or identifiable symptoms. These people are asymptomatic carriers and can unknowingly spread the virus to other people."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_cold…

"Interestingly, about 25 percent of people who get colds may not exhibit any symptoms, or are asymptomatic."
http://www.healthtree.com/articles/the-c…

Also see:

"These studies show that RSV [a common cold virus] is a 'hit and hide' virus, rather like HIV, herpes or some hepatitis viruses. The symptoms seem to go away but the virus is just hiding, waiting for a chance to re-emerge and begin infecting other people."

http://www1.imperial.ac.uk/medicine/news…

^Interesting article, thanks. I am sure most people know that someone who feels fine could be harboring a cold virus (aren't we all asymptomatic and potentially infectious for some time after the initial exposure?), but the other assertion sounds problematic. The article states that only one cold virus has that quality, and it is full of "mays" "mights" and "coulds".

Most of us get colds every year, but then most of us use public transport, go to work/school, touch telephones and doorknobs etc - I am far more inclined to think that's what gives me colds, as opposed to some virus I caught decades ago, and by keeping my hands away from my face, I can generally avoid catching a cold.

Same with mono, its flare ups occur in so few people they're hardly considered the norm. I don't think most people would make a fuss about herpes if it went away like cold and mono.

@ BlackRose, the information you post does not back up your statements. Firstly, lifelong carrying of a virus is rare, herpes and HIV are quite unique viruses, there are others but none that you talk about. You can kill viruses, we have very effective mechanism to kill viruses, mainly CD8 lymphocytes, which give apoptotic signals to the infected cell, causing it to kill itself, and the virus. Herpes, HIV, and the RSV you reference, have unique ways to circumvent this.

You are correct that many viruses can have periods where they are asymptomatic, or that you can be a carrier of a virus for without developing any symptoms at all. The reason why these are different is because, as tiare said, they are less serious then herpes, and most importantly that you can be unaware that you are carrying them and therefore unable to tell someone about it. If you know that you are carrying a virus, any virus, there is no reason why you should not disclose this to someone who will spend a lot of close contact with you. If you tell then you had a cold a couple of days ago, they will most likely decide that they don't care, much like they may say if you tell they about your herpes. I think there is a unfair stigma surrounding herpes, but it is certainly worse than a cold.

@73: Thanks for the info on lymphocytes! I stand corrected.

Yeah, I'd agree that the more serious the virus is, the more important it is to disclose.

@ Adam West
My understanding, based on what I've read and what I've heard from my doctor, is that you can be infected with herpes simplex 1 or 2 just about anywhere on your body, but 1 is happiest around the mouth, and 2 is happiest around the genitals, and that is where they're most often found, respectively. Either type can most definitely be transmitted via oral sex, from mouth to genitals, and vice-versa. Once upon a time, herpes 1 was thought to be only an above-the-waist infection, and herpes 2 only below-the-waist. I'm pretty sure that's what I learned in high school too. Apparently, though, that's changed.

It's not clear from this letter where the site of infection is for either of these people, unless there were some details we don't know about that got edited out, and I'm kind of surprised that Dan didn't bring that up. I also notice that the LW mentions both saliva and precum, which makes me wonder. I don't think Dan's response makes it clear that herpes 1 and 2 are transmitted by direct, skin-to-skin contact, and it looks like LW might be confused about that.

I don't think anyone's mentioned yet that for women with genital herpes, there's a small risk of passing it on to their kids through childbirth, and neonatal herpes is apparently pretty serious. That by itself ought to be a good reason to take measures to prevent getting herpes or giving it to someone else.

@Black Rose:
You can get herpes 1 or 2 through asymptotic shedding (i.e. viruses being shed through the skin, when no outbreak is present). Chicken pox and mono behave differently. I have never heard of it being possible to get those from someone carrying those viruses when they're dormant - you pretty much have to be around someone with an active infection. I had mono as a teenager, and was told that it can flare up again if your immune system is compromised in some way and can't suppress the virus like it normally does. (Again, I don't have medical training and I'm basing this on my own reading and the word from my doc, so it is possible that I'm talking out of my ass.)

@75: You are correct about herpes 1 and 2, except that 1 is very common genitally as well now. You are correct about chicken pox -- I was wrong there -- but mono can actually be shed asymptomatically as well (maybe even as long as 18 months after initial infection: http://kidshealth.org/teen/infections/co… ). Also, a lot of cases of the initial infection of mono are asymptomatic.

The chance of transmission from an inactive case is very small. I was unknowingly exposed for 3 years from a girlfriend and did not get HSV-2. It's a skin disease, not a death sentence.

Much of the stigma and shame around Herpes stems from an advertising campaign in the 1970s and 80s when drug companies first started marketing anti-virals.

Getting diagnosed with Herpes can be the worst moment of your life. However, in order to safely and confidently date with genital herpes you should definitely know a few things. HerpesPal.com can help you deal with and overcome any issue which genital herpes might create in your dating life. So take a deep breath. And realize taking little steps every day will help you recover and heal from this experience.And I promise, you will find happiness again.