I've heard from many guys who tell me that they lie about porn (and the other kinds of sex they may buy)
As a gay man, I have lived in a world created, propelled and dominated by testosterone. I have loved it, been entranced by it, obsessed by it, crushed by it, exposed by it, humiliated by it and also exhausted by it. The gay male world is in some respects women's revenge on men - because everything women deal with on the testosterone front is doubled and then inflicted on other men.
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It was a VHS tape made to look like it contained Disney's Snow White. And my sister and I were really expecting to see Snow White and take a sweet little trip down memory lane.
I think it's a funny story.
And why does the study only track men? Do women not fantasize? Do they not look for and enjoy photographic and fictional porn? Do they not hire "escorts"? The Chippendales dancers weren't dancing for the comparatively few men in their audiences, as far as I know. Were they sex workers? Were they volunteers? Were they brothers, sons, husbands, boyfriends, etc., or were they exhibitionistic loners with no families and no social connections?
I'm so glad I'm single.
Men and women simply have very different views of human sexuality. Even where there's a profession of similarity between two seemingly compatible partners of opposite sex, that difference most frequently is stored in a paper box, jumping out when unexpected.
Our cultural assumption is that women's sexuality is moral, men's immoral. I've grown weary of that assumption, and more and more simply refuse to play the game.
Jezebel has gone from a place with an advice segment called "Pot Psychology" where someone who called herself Slut Machine and her BFF answered reader advice questions on video (mostly about sex) while high, to where the woman who wrote under the name Slut Machine now writes about being a mom under her married name. *sigh*
I mean, if you're seeing prostitutes while involved with someone, without their permission, that's a different story. But porn? Come on.
Not that I think that would actually work. But really why would a guy want to stay with a woman who acts like that?
Nice insinuation that a man who watches porn is THIS close to visiting hookers. If even half the men who watched porn paid for actual sex with actual women 10% of the female workforce would have to be sex-workers, and they'd be perpetually exhausted.
If my boyfriend told me he didn't watch porn I'd be mildly irritated by the lying. If I actually came to believe that he didn't watch porn I'd be perplexed. I'm not interested in my boyfriends porn because I find hetero porn icky, but he's welcome to it. He doesn't force me to watch his porn, and I won't force him to watch mine.
BTW, my husband has an actual girlfriend, so there are some open minded straight women out here.
Much, much fun to that effect here, and all over Mr. Destructo:
"To make up for breaking no news, it tries to give you the "full picture" on events, which is usually laughably small, even when it doesn't involve reiterating talking-points and "he said"/"she said" quotes on both sides of an issue, which is its usual stock in trade. Newsweek is news for people who think Readers Digest Condensed Editions are literature. The only difference is that, because it has an editorial board and staff of writers with agendas when it comes to summarizing news, there's even more mediation between events and the readership than simply hacking down big text until it's small and simple enough for people to finish reading while shitting."
And I certainly don't want to hear about my dad's habits. Jeeze. Have some decency, man.
Apparently they'd expect me to enjoy degrading women (or men, I guess, since I'm gay) and all that, due to my use of pornography, even though I have no interest in nor have I ever visited a strip club, nor hired an escort or any other form of prostitute.
It's really sensationalist, and I hope that the actual study is more nuanced than that. If it's not, then it's a really crappy study.
A lot of this will be informed by the sort of person the guy is. There's some guys I know -- I wouldn't give a shit what kind of porn they view because they've already shown they're basic, decent human beings. There's other guys -- the porn combined with their general behavior, my reaction is Get the Fuck Out of Dodge, Now.
There's a lot more going on here than "OMFGpornBBQ" -- give us *some* credit.
(I do recognize that some women's reactions are ridiculous and merit the sort of reaction Dan has. Hey, you [gay men] have Marcus Bachmann, we [women] have Phyllis Schafly. But I contend that for more women than men think, *what* they are complaining about is a slightly different thing than what the men think they're complaining about.)
Also, even women who are accepting of reality and okay with their guy watching porn can be a little insecure about it. If that's the case, I feel like there are a few things a guy can say to his girlfriend to make her feel better about it:
-I love you and think you're mega-foxy-awesome-hot
-I use porn because sometimes I'm too lazy to use my imagination and need something to help get me horny (mostly true, right guys?)
-I would rather sleep with you than the girls in these videos (I really hope that's true for you, but say it even if it's not because being told that someone in a video with no known personality is more attractive than the person you supposedly love is really, really cruel)
-If you don't really want to know any more about it, that's okay (some girls can deal with the theoretical but have a very negative emotional reaction when faced with details; a reasonable girl will know if she's one of these)
-But if you want to know everything about it, I'm willing to share (because some girls are less scared of it if they see that your reaction to sex with them is much more enthusiastic than your reaction to masturbating to porn)
In conclusion, be honest with them about it, and if they go ballistic, try to reassure them. If they simply don't believe that ALL men have watched porn because their exes said they didn't, try telling them to call up their exes and see if they'll still say that now that they have no reason to lie.
Also, yeah, porn is not buying sex. For one, most people don't buy porn, they get it online for free. For another, porn != sex.
Ahem. Makes me thrilled to be bisexual ;)
[And as others have commented, WTF over linking porn & prostitution?]
And if a guy's basic behavior is a turn off, does your decision to hang with them really depend on the type of porn they consume?
For example, I've known for ages that my Dad looks at porn, because he isn't very skilled at hiding it afterward on the computer. But my mom doesn't even know how to use the computer. Eventually she walked in on him doing this, though. She was so shocked and without resources for understanding it that she actually TOLD me--obliquely at first). Imagine how funny/embarrassing this conversation was! I tried to explain that this is normal behavior nowadays, she probably would feel better about it if she looked at it with him and discussed it directly, there were differences in the types of things available, and so on.
Anyway, imagine that, for all these years of your life, you have NO concept whatsoever of the kinds of things that are now standard fare on the internet. Your experience with porn = Playboy type pictures. Imagine the surprise of discovering your husband engages with this stuff! Why didn't he tell me? Am I failing to satisfy him? Is he even interested in me sexually, when he spends this much time looking at something I'm not and never could be?
I imagine THIS is why porn might make some women feel bad--not because they hate porn, or are even opposed to viewing it themselves, but because it makes them feel terribly insecure about how porn fits into their relationship, or whether it undermines the bonds or trust they have established. When women are comfortable users of porn in their own right, they don't seem to have a problem with men using porn (barring other considerations about content, frequency, or honesty). But how many women, as opposed to men, are raised to think it is okay to use porn? My husband actually got magazines from his dad, which is a story I've heard from other guys too.
Finally, I think it's totally offensive that Dan ends this entry by saying he's glad his wife is a man. A man wrote the damn thing you're complaining about, Dan. So maybe you're just lucky you're not with HIM. Why do you have to make this about disparaging women in general, when most women nowadays ARE accepting of porn (probably because of the internet--things have really changed)? And when you have made zero effort to consider how women might feel about porn or about buying sex. For what it's worth, if my husband visited a prostitute without my permission, that would be the end of the marriage. And yeah, I think it would be BETTER for our kids if that happened. But he can look at porn as much as he likes, as far as I'm concerned--preferably but not necessarily with me.
I know many women who don't have a problem with male sexuality, but those many women are vastly outnumbered by those women who DO have a problem with male sexuality. So, to simply say we men should dtmfa and move on, the pool of available women will drop dramatically in number.
I am a straight woman. So, it doesn't affect me at all if a woman condones porn watching in her partner. But, if I really like a woman and end up befriending her, she always turns out to feel that way.
So, the important traits I look for in a friend always seem to have "down with porn" attached to them.
My boyfriend also looks at porn regularly, and guess what- that doesn't bother me either! as long as it doesn't affect his willingness to have sex with me, I don't care what he does with his hand and his computer.
I was seeing this 30-year-old guy a year or so ago. We were talking on the phone about sex, in the hopes of having phone sex, and I was having an incredibly different time getting him to describe any of his fantasies.
Like pulling teeth difficult.
I finally got... wait for it... it's so bad... maybe folks cannot handle it... that he fantasizes about MFF threesomes.
Thinking that I would help him chill the fuck out already, I responded, "Well, I can work with that, because I've had sex with a woman and I quite enjoyed it."
He never spoke to me again.
With no explanations.
And we have many friends in common, so it was only a matter of time before I heard through those friends that to him I was, his word, a whore and because I was a whore, I was dead to him.
So, let me just say that this segment of batshit crazy sex-phobic women who despise porn and let their fear of inadequacy ruin their relationships as they bully their men into lying are by no means alone, and that kinky open sex-positive kickass women like myself ALSO experience this pathological wrath and policing too.
I fantasize often about living in a society run by adults. I think that's why I lurk here all day long.
I was just wondering if there are really cases where you're borderline with them and their taste in porn is the deciding factor. Genuinely curious.
Nobody said angry women bear "ALL" responsibility. The original article said they bear NONE, and that's what Dan was objecting to.
The thing is: these guys all have to fucking lie to their wives and girlfriends. There is always this point in the evening where they have to synchronize their stories.
Except for me. I tell my wife I'm going to the booby bar. And since we, you know, actually trust each other, it's no big deal.
And ironically one of these dudes will go on some horseshit tirade about sexual objectification, parroting whatever superficial pseudo feminist knee-jerk check box his wife uses to make sure we all get on the Seattle Liberal guilt trip. And THAT guy, after unleashing himself with tequila, will always be the one who maxes out his credit card on lap dances.
My wife has even had her uptight friends call her to rat me out after they have brow beat "confessions" out of their whipped men. So she explains she doesn't care and, yes, she knew. These women go ape shit like she's a fifth columnist for the patriarchy.
We've been together twenty years. And it keeps getting better. These lie-based relationships are falling left and right. Hmmmm. Gee.
The levels of cognitive dissonance with these people is astounding.
I'm very happy to have married a wonderful woman who isn't at all uptight about this issue.
The author also didn't say that an angry reaction against porn was normal and shouldn't change; rather, he was discussing why men LIE about porn, due to fear of the reaction. This reaction is coming from women who were being lied to and are now getting the real news, though. That's not the same thing as having an angry reaction to porn in general.
That's why I say it sounds a lot like 63's story, since the initial reaction was anger, and there was nothing WRONG with the fact that she was angry. She was reacting that way based on what she had learned about porn. And then, when her boyfriend discussed it, just like our author suggests, things improved.
Dan gives all these caveats about some women this and some women that, but ultimately he's thinking, "I'm so glad I'm gay." So glad his wife is a man. Which means that he is indeed blaming women for having a misunderstanding, for having the problem here. It's wonderful if a woman has received a sex-positive education that allows her NOT to be upset about porn. But that doesn't mean that other women, who do react negatively, are at fault for this. What do they know about porn? Do they use it themselves? Have they found that the men in their lives are in fact lying about it and hiding it, which makes it seem like a problem?
Women can be very insecure.
"I got a guy woo-hoo. He''s mine, he likes me more than any other woman out there he's what?!, he looks at porn. Oh my God that means I'm not desirable to him, that I'm not his sole image of sexuality. He wants to -gasp- be with those other women rather than me! *sob* it's over he's just another sexist pig only interested in a fuck. I'll let him know that is UNACCEPTABLE. No porn, no wanking don't even think about looking at another woman because I may lose the one man I was able to catch."
Sigh. I am so glad I'm single. My last boyfriend liked porn and I didn't give a shit. Guys like to look period. Get over it.
Do you even stop to consider for a moment that their concerns might be real--whether you agree or not, just real for them? I don't suppose it's even imaginable that sexual objectification occurs in a strip club, or that a woman might be genuinely bothered by that. Why do you assume that you and your wife are the only ones who, you know, actually trust each other, just because she's the only one who's okay with your going to the strip club? Is it possible that objections to a strip club could have less to do with lack of trust than with being bothered by strip clubs in general? Come on, I mean, you sound like you need a lot of that superficial feminist crap to help your mind.
That's utter horseshit. Even just with casual friends, it is all of our jobs to not be so judgmental that people are afraid to be honest with us about who they are. This is doubly true in relationships and with intimate topics like sexuality. Bottom line: it is POSITIVELY women's job to ratchet down their anger and make it possible for men to get real. Then, they can choose to leave or disapprove or whatever. But intimidating guys into hiding porn and then attacking them for doing so is not a defensible or healthy standard for female behavior.
Make sure you post at least fifty more times, Suzy. And get more sanctimonious, please. It's really helping. We're not quite sure what your point of view is yet.
Hetero men play a lot of lipservice to women who are confident in their sexuality, but when it's authentic and not simply sexualized for their enjoyment, most men bail the fuck out and resort to slut shaming. What can we do to change those people except be our honest, authentic selves?
I did try to convey my thoughts on this in some detail to try and give some idea of what's going on in at least some cases. Pity you coudln't be bothered to try and imagine women as actual human beings, not as some kind of bags of inexplicable and annoying emotions.
@56, 71 – cultural change is hard but necessary. If every guy shows his gf news stories (science!) about how all men use porn, and has a discussion with her, then more and more women will understand that fact.
Maybe, just maybe, men wouldn't lie about it if their sexuality wasn't constantly demonized. Start by assuming porn and strippers-or whatever-aren't degrading to all women by default. Don't internalize his sexual desires.
I'll try to explain. Starting with the "objectification" argument against porn. Could there be a weaker more diminished argument? It's one of the terrible sounding terms people just reflexively throw out there to use as some sort of nuance killing rhetorical cudgel with out the slightest idea what it really means. Somebody said it once. It's abd thing. So I'm gonna bash you with it!
Seriously. Look. We "objectify" humans beings daily as a way of abbreviating our human interactions. We don't always have time to "know" the person-hood of our server at a restaurant. They are, for the purpose of that interaction, the food conveyance object. We do this all day long. With thousands of people through out our lives.
And this not a problem. Until sex is involved. Because in our puritanical duplicitous society sexual interactions are some special case. Ridiculously over-romanticized at best, criminalized at worst.
The only ethical consideration in these interaction should be: is this person being exploited by me? Or am I contributing to this persons exploitation and to what degree. Objectification only matters if a person is being exploited.
Porn actors and strippers are not ALWAYS being exploited by the our consuming what they sell. Sometimes. But not all the time.
I wonder how many people get all bent out of shape over their hubby looking at porn get as worked up over his buying a new iPad - made by exploited workers with strategic mineral resources harvested from exploited colonized developing nations. Yeah. One set of objects don't seem to factor that much.
Oh. But they say we then reduce ALL women to these sexual objects when we reduce the stripper to a sexual object? Do we reduce everybody to a food conveyance object? Pah-lease.
Is ones view of humanity—men specifically— so god damned stunted that we cant actually believe we can apply context to our interactions and fantasy lives?
Sexual fantasies are not that much materially different that any other sort of fantasy. Nobody gets worked up that their husbands go to see Lord of Rings where he is essentially asked to fantasize about killing Orcs.
It's doubtful your boyfriend will ever feel the need to lie about going to see Lord of the Rings or playing Call of Duty. Even though there he is fantasizing about relentlessly murdering people. And elves. How can you live with that psycho?
(And for god's sake don't give me this horseshit about the sex drive and the primal activation of the limbic system making sex special or what ever scientific factoid somebody retrofit into a doctorate thesis once. Our violent fantasies activate these same primal systems. Hell. To a degree so do our fantasies about food. We don't know enough about neural science to make any claims about what viewing porn or anything else does.)
Look. The issue is honesty and trust. Do these women think ANY sexualized fantasy interaction their S.O. has constitutes as cheating? Well. Then guess what? S.O. is gonna fucking lie. Because he IS going to have sexual fantasies. Are they worried that a stripper might touch hubby's winkle? Are they worries that hubby might develop some sort of unrealistic projected body issues?
If the women involved drop the fucking judgement and talk to their S.O.s they may find that there is nothing to worry about at all.
And BTW for the Suzy's out there - broad-stroke feminism is a fine political philosophy but like anything context is everything. You will find rigid didactic notions don't scale well to interpersonal relationships.
But hey. You want try to govern your relationship by something written by Andrea Dworkin 30 years ago? Good luck. All these failing relationships and people wonder why.
As for the implication that I need to adjust the way I think about women, I'm fairly confident that I treat myself as a human being and not as a bag of "inexplicable and annoying emotions." How nice of you to assume that someone who disagrees with you must be a man.
And since I'm bisexual, it *really* doesn't matter whether you're a man or a women, sweetie.
And no, I do not dehumanize my server. They are a human being, not a food serving robot fulfilling my gluttony. And I don't think you understand the meaning of objectification.