Blogs Jul 21, 2011 at 11:28 am


I'm so glad my wife is intelligent.
Wow. Talk about someone who has no idea what he's talking about. I'm sorry but if a woman goes "ballistic" at the revelation that their spouse watches porn then there is something severely wrong with HER and HER REACTION. Not the spouse looking at porn.
Okay, this is manageable. I'm single, gay, and childless, so nothing to worry about there, I work with a woman, but she's cool. I'm nobody's boss, though I'm training a new guy, so maybe I should tell him about my porn habits. I do have sisters, so I guess I'd better give them a call. Thank god he didn't say sons, grandsons, nephews and cousins. I have too large a family to make that kind of time commitment.
Wow. I'd still be horrified by this if he had included women in his list of "sex buyers".
@3 - The rest of the time, he's giddy or sleeping.
and why don't women have to disclose their porn use/fantasy life in this crazy scenario?
Thank diety I'm a homo. Talk about controlling another person's body...
I think my brother would much rather if I had yelled at him after finding his porn rather than what I do which never stop telling the story.

It was a VHS tape made to look like it contained Disney's Snow White. And my sister and I were really expecting to see Snow White and take a sweet little trip down memory lane.

I think it's a funny story.
Would it be so hard for straight people to just talk things out and not make assumptions about what constitutes monogamy/fidelity et. al.? If a married woman/committed girlfriend flies off the handle when her man looks at porn, he didn't do any screening/due diligence before committing. In that case, they're both idiots.
What a bunch of bullshit!
Dan, You have to consider the source. You were on Bill Maher this week. He held up three Jesus covers and multiple Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman covers. Newsweek is a pretty comprised source.
@7 -- obviously, because women in his reality don't consume porn or have fantasies or behave in any way which is sexual at all, except under duress.
@6, or smoking weed in Hawaii in between surfing not waves but Jezebel, apparently...
Thank you for this, Dan. Too bad you're preaching to the choir here. You should have published it in Good Housekeeping instead.
I'm with 10. Find someone who has views that work with you. There are women who are okay with guys using porn. Even women who will watch porn with a partner as something they do together sometimes, as well as something they can each do on their own. If that's what you want, then just make sure you're not with someone who freaks out about porn.
And I'm so glad my wife understands sex.
And why are all forms of sexual stimulation being lumped in together? Isn't there a difference between fantasy-food and steak? Do women believe the men who look at porn on line are so blind to reality that they think they're actually tricking? What about the men who like to read sexual fiction -- are they culpable even if they recognize the difference between living, breathing sex workers and print on the page/screen?

And why does the study only track men? Do women not fantasize? Do they not look for and enjoy photographic and fictional porn? Do they not hire "escorts"? The Chippendales dancers weren't dancing for the comparatively few men in their audiences, as far as I know. Were they sex workers? Were they volunteers? Were they brothers, sons, husbands, boyfriends, etc., or were they exhibitionistic loners with no families and no social connections?

I'm so glad I'm single.
What if you, like all of us, get our porn for free on the computer machine? Is it ok as long as men aren't "buying" sex?
I'm so glad I'm not one of those women. Sometimes hearing that stuff hurts, but... I'm not perfect either :)
Every time I hear an anti-porn argument I think of being in middle school in the 80s and watching Donahue and feeling vaguely guilty about my budding interest (obsession?) in pornography. Glad that for the most part feminism moved on from this.
Dan…I think of this topic each time you give advice to straight couples. I'm not sure, as much as I respect you, that you intrinsically understand the conflict inherent in straight relationships.

Men and women simply have very different views of human sexuality. Even where there's a profession of similarity between two seemingly compatible partners of opposite sex, that difference most frequently is stored in a paper box, jumping out when unexpected.

Our cultural assumption is that women's sexuality is moral, men's immoral. I've grown weary of that assumption, and more and more simply refuse to play the game.
I'm a straight woman and also a reader of Jezebel, and when I read that, all I could think was "come the fuck on, that isn't BUYING sex." I could give a rip that my boyfriend watches porn. As long as I am getting laid, what's it to me? I doubt I am the only straight girl who feels that way.

Jezebel has gone from a place with an advice segment called "Pot Psychology" where someone who called herself Slut Machine and her BFF answered reader advice questions on video (mostly about sex) while high, to where the woman who wrote under the name Slut Machine now writes about being a mom under her married name. *sigh*

Encourage women from childhood to be honest and open about their own sexualities and a lot of the porn "problem" will dissipate all on its own.
Sigh. Yes, Dan, women exist who don't castigate their partners for using porn, or who use porn themselves, alone and/or with a sexual partner. Many, many women commented on that Jezebel article to say how weird and offensive it is to see porn lumped in with prostitution, how this study is wildly inaccurate and should be redone without such strident guidelines. It would have been kind of cool if you could have acknowledged that.
Why would you even get involved with someone who's so retarded that they'd go ballistic at the idea of watching porn?

I mean, if you're seeing prostitutes while involved with someone, without their permission, that's a different story. But porn? Come on.
9, if your brother is not laughing at the story when you tell it, you are being a cunt.
If your girlfriend/wife freaks the fuck out over a little porn viewing I say DTMF! If enough guys do that, these women will have to change.
Not that I think that would actually work. But really why would a guy want to stay with a woman who acts like that?
if your spouse gets jealous/angry at you masturbating or looking at porn when not in her presence you clearly picked the wrong person to be with. this is something that should have come up way before you ever got married
I've heard from many guys who tell me that they lie about porn (and the other kinds of sex they may buy)

Nice insinuation that a man who watches porn is THIS close to visiting hookers. If even half the men who watched porn paid for actual sex with actual women 10% of the female workforce would have to be sex-workers, and they'd be perpetually exhausted.

If my boyfriend told me he didn't watch porn I'd be mildly irritated by the lying. If I actually came to believe that he didn't watch porn I'd be perplexed. I'm not interested in my boyfriends porn because I find hetero porn icky, but he's welcome to it. He doesn't force me to watch his porn, and I won't force him to watch mine.
Straight men: time to man up! Tell your wives/girlfriends about reality, and if they go ballistic, DTMFA.

BTW, my husband has an actual girlfriend, so there are some open minded straight women out here.
@25: I acknowledged that lots of women use porn, are okay with it, etc., in the first graph. I didn't dive down into the comments thread, so I couldn't acknowledge 'em, 'cuz I didn't read 'em. Thanks for doing that bit fer me.
That article was ridiculous. This is what happens all too often when a guy gets a degree in Women's Studies. If I have to hear one more argument about how pornography equals misogynistic, I'm going to start hitting people with a shovel. Reclaim your testicles, big guy. It's entirely possible to love and respect women and enjoy a good perverted video clip at the same time.
"Honey... it's time I tell you the truth. I entered into a legally binding sex contract with a woman. I assumed shared responsibility for her debts, pay a significant portion of her living expenses, and do odd jobs for her around the house... in exchange for sex. I'm so sorry."
27 Of course he laughs. Of course he tell hilarious, embarrassing stories about me.
What I really couldn't believe that no one took 2 seconds to acknowledge that this was an article from FUCKING NEWSWEEK (!)...probably the least credible magazine in that circulation range in the country.

Much, much fun to that effect here, and all over Mr. Destructo:…

"To make up for breaking no news, it tries to give you the "full picture" on events, which is usually laughably small, even when it doesn't involve reiterating talking-points and "he said"/"she said" quotes on both sides of an issue, which is its usual stock in trade. Newsweek is news for people who think Readers Digest Condensed Editions are literature. The only difference is that, because it has an editorial board and staff of writers with agendas when it comes to summarizing news, there's even more mediation between events and the readership than simply hacking down big text until it's small and simple enough for people to finish reading while shitting."
Okay, so the next time my boyfriend casually brings up the topic of masturbation or pornography, instead of being surprised that he does it (he's so discrete!) or adding to the conversation with my own stories, I should be furious with him because that's the real reaction he's going for. Nah, I like my way better.

And I certainly don't want to hear about my dad's habits. Jeeze. Have some decency, man.
if your gf finds it gross/degrading you don't have to tell her about it but she should be smart enough to know you still do it on your personal time. i'm in a healthy relationship with a girl i am crazy about and when we are apart i still need a little stimulation until i can see her again. doesn't make me want her any less. in fact it's because i want her that much right now and can't
That Newsweek article is also weird how it starts in by talking about how "sex buyers" include men who use pornography or go to strip clubs... and then promptly goes on to only discuss prostitution (especially child prostitution) and talk about the "sex buyer" group as if they are all men who frequent prostitutes.

Apparently they'd expect me to enjoy degrading women (or men, I guess, since I'm gay) and all that, due to my use of pornography, even though I have no interest in nor have I ever visited a strip club, nor hired an escort or any other form of prostitute.

It's really sensationalist, and I hope that the actual study is more nuanced than that. If it's not, then it's a really crappy study.
Actually, my objections don't generally center around the *porn*. I don't care about porn, per se -- I consume a certain amount of it myself. But the content thereof -- am I supposed to compete with *that*? Is *that* what you're looking for? This is something you're hiding from me, instead of sharing? You can't find any *better* porn than that? You really think she's enjoying *that* -- and you're getting off on it? (Can that even be done in real life??!?)

A lot of this will be informed by the sort of person the guy is. There's some guys I know -- I wouldn't give a shit what kind of porn they view because they've already shown they're basic, decent human beings. There's other guys -- the porn combined with their general behavior, my reaction is Get the Fuck Out of Dodge, Now.

There's a lot more going on here than "OMFGpornBBQ" -- give us *some* credit.

(I do recognize that some women's reactions are ridiculous and merit the sort of reaction Dan has. Hey, you [gay men] have Marcus Bachmann, we [women] have Phyllis Schafly. But I contend that for more women than men think, *what* they are complaining about is a slightly different thing than what the men think they're complaining about.)
Dan- You missed another tag for this post. The author of that Jezebel piece is also a youth pastor:
We've as much "bought sex from" the actors in the porn we've consumed as we've saved the world from a meteor, gunned down German bearer bond thieves, or convinced Diane Keaton to move back to New York City with us.
Anyway, if you dig around a bit, you'll see there's quite a bit of thoughtful commentary on the anti-sex hysteria in general and the giant gaping plotholes in this particular feature. I direct you to this one:…

Castrato. Castrati is plural.
You know, these people may have the wrong inspiration, but I think there's one thing that they have right: guys need to stop lying about using porn. The only reason why women out there manage to keep getting away with "going ballistic" when they find out their partner watches porn is because some men have let them believe that they didn't watch porn. IMO, it's equivalent to women faking orgasms, and then the guy thinks something is wrong with the woman who doesn't fake them for him.

Also, even women who are accepting of reality and okay with their guy watching porn can be a little insecure about it. If that's the case, I feel like there are a few things a guy can say to his girlfriend to make her feel better about it:
-I love you and think you're mega-foxy-awesome-hot
-I use porn because sometimes I'm too lazy to use my imagination and need something to help get me horny (mostly true, right guys?)
-I would rather sleep with you than the girls in these videos (I really hope that's true for you, but say it even if it's not because being told that someone in a video with no known personality is more attractive than the person you supposedly love is really, really cruel)
-If you don't really want to know any more about it, that's okay (some girls can deal with the theoretical but have a very negative emotional reaction when faced with details; a reasonable girl will know if she's one of these)
-But if you want to know everything about it, I'm willing to share (because some girls are less scared of it if they see that your reaction to sex with them is much more enthusiastic than your reaction to masturbating to porn)

In conclusion, be honest with them about it, and if they go ballistic, try to reassure them. If they simply don't believe that ALL men have watched porn because their exes said they didn't, try telling them to call up their exes and see if they'll still say that now that they have no reason to lie.
@22, that's been your experience maybe. I'm a girl and I've consumed more porn (some online photos/videos, some graphic fiction) than any boyfriend I've ever had, and I've had a fair few. I also don't think I had a "different view of sex" than any of those guys -- and since I don't judge them for being into porn, having fetishes, whatever, there's really no incentive for them to lie to me about it. Blegh. I hate it when people like you and the blogger Dan quotes make blanket statements about what "men and women" do/feel.

Also, yeah, porn is not buying sex. For one, most people don't buy porn, they get it online for free. For another, porn != sex.
Oh, and the other thing that popped to mind was this from Andrew Sullivan, which really had me laughing:
As a gay man, I have lived in a world created, propelled and dominated by testosterone. I have loved it, been entranced by it, obsessed by it, crushed by it, exposed by it, humiliated by it and also exhausted by it. The gay male world is in some respects women's revenge on men - because everything women deal with on the testosterone front is doubled and then inflicted on other men.

Ahem. Makes me thrilled to be bisexual ;)

[And as others have commented, WTF over linking porn & prostitution?]
@40: Many guys specifically look at porn that is outside of what you or they would want to or be able to do in real life. It's like watching the food network for super fancy dishes that you would never bother cooking yourself.

And if a guy's basic behavior is a turn off, does your decision to hang with them really depend on the type of porn they consume?
I generally like Hugo's writing, but this article dissapointed me as it obviously did to most of the commenters. But I'm so glad you're glad you're gay, Dan, and don't have to put up with us harpy (and indistinguishably monolithic) anti-sex women.
Hugo Schwyzer could be really awesome if he'd just get over his habit of putting women on a pedestal. Poster boy for "trying too hard to be feminist".
"But I contend that for more women than men think, *what* they are complaining about is a slightly different thing than what the men think they're complaining about." Yes to that. The women may not be complaining about viewing porn, per se, but about the fact that they're being deceived, or because they don't understand what is going on.

For example, I've known for ages that my Dad looks at porn, because he isn't very skilled at hiding it afterward on the computer. But my mom doesn't even know how to use the computer. Eventually she walked in on him doing this, though. She was so shocked and without resources for understanding it that she actually TOLD me--obliquely at first). Imagine how funny/embarrassing this conversation was! I tried to explain that this is normal behavior nowadays, she probably would feel better about it if she looked at it with him and discussed it directly, there were differences in the types of things available, and so on.

Anyway, imagine that, for all these years of your life, you have NO concept whatsoever of the kinds of things that are now standard fare on the internet. Your experience with porn = Playboy type pictures. Imagine the surprise of discovering your husband engages with this stuff! Why didn't he tell me? Am I failing to satisfy him? Is he even interested in me sexually, when he spends this much time looking at something I'm not and never could be?

I imagine THIS is why porn might make some women feel bad--not because they hate porn, or are even opposed to viewing it themselves, but because it makes them feel terribly insecure about how porn fits into their relationship, or whether it undermines the bonds or trust they have established. When women are comfortable users of porn in their own right, they don't seem to have a problem with men using porn (barring other considerations about content, frequency, or honesty). But how many women, as opposed to men, are raised to think it is okay to use porn? My husband actually got magazines from his dad, which is a story I've heard from other guys too.

Finally, I think it's totally offensive that Dan ends this entry by saying he's glad his wife is a man. A man wrote the damn thing you're complaining about, Dan. So maybe you're just lucky you're not with HIM. Why do you have to make this about disparaging women in general, when most women nowadays ARE accepting of porn (probably because of the internet--things have really changed)? And when you have made zero effort to consider how women might feel about porn or about buying sex. For what it's worth, if my husband visited a prostitute without my permission, that would be the end of the marriage. And yeah, I think it would be BETTER for our kids if that happened. But he can look at porn as much as he likes, as far as I'm concerned--preferably but not necessarily with me.
Pedantic bullshit like this is why I stopped reading Jezebel. I shudder to think of the comments thread---also I love your response, @ 42. And what is so terrible about PAYING for porn? I'm a woman, and right now I only watch free stuff (for financial reasons) but I want to actually purchase a subscription to a site when I have a steadier job, because I appreciate the ladies and gents that help me get off! They work hard, and I like to watch actors that seem happy, healthy and well fed.
@48 for what value of guy are we talking about (Trying to understand your last para). If I'm not sexually involved with a guy, I really don't care what he does on his, er, downtime. If I am sexually involved with a guy, his porn habit is one of several things I may evaluate about whether or not I want to continue that relationship.
@52 - I have no idea how you got that question out of my comment.
I'm so glad my wife doesn't really give a shit, except for her complaint that "the plots in porno movies don't make any sense", to which I replied, "what plots?"
To all those who are suggesting that there are women who don't freak out about this and that men should just simply date them, there's a simple problem of math.

I know many women who don't have a problem with male sexuality, but those many women are vastly outnumbered by those women who DO have a problem with male sexuality. So, to simply say we men should dtmfa and move on, the pool of available women will drop dramatically in number.
Please go read Jamie Peck's take on this at TheGloss. You'll feel better...
56 I agree but I feel like not freaking out about porn is part of a whole package of desirable personality traits that are worth holding out for.

I am a straight woman. So, it doesn't affect me at all if a woman condones porn watching in her partner. But, if I really like a woman and end up befriending her, she always turns out to feel that way.

So, the important traits I look for in a friend always seem to have "down with porn" attached to them.
Hey, while we are all here, can anyone recommend sites with good free porn (or series I can buy) that isn't basically a guy masturbating into a vagina aka porn for straight girls? The shit that's easily available makes me feel awful.
Um, as a woman, I really have no interest in knowing ANYTHING about my brother, father, boss, or co-workers' porn habits.

My boyfriend also looks at porn regularly, and guess what- that doesn't bother me either! as long as it doesn't affect his willingness to have sex with me, I don't care what he does with his hand and his computer.
I have to wonder whether taking a female co-worker, or employee aside for a talk about one's pron usage could be construed as sexual harrassment by that female worker. How could one possibly contextualize this conversation?
Just as an aside.

I was seeing this 30-year-old guy a year or so ago. We were talking on the phone about sex, in the hopes of having phone sex, and I was having an incredibly different time getting him to describe any of his fantasies.

Really difficult.

Like pulling teeth difficult.

I finally got... wait for it... it's so bad... maybe folks cannot handle it... that he fantasizes about MFF threesomes.

Thinking that I would help him chill the fuck out already, I responded, "Well, I can work with that, because I've had sex with a woman and I quite enjoyed it."

He never spoke to me again.

With no explanations.

And we have many friends in common, so it was only a matter of time before I heard through those friends that to him I was, his word, a whore and because I was a whore, I was dead to him.

So, let me just say that this segment of batshit crazy sex-phobic women who despise porn and let their fear of inadequacy ruin their relationships as they bully their men into lying are by no means alone, and that kinky open sex-positive kickass women like myself ALSO experience this pathological wrath and policing too.

I fantasize often about living in a society run by adults. I think that's why I lurk here all day long.
Thanks, Dan, for doing your part to spread the word. When I was 21 I first found my BF's porn stash and I was pissed. Because that was all I knew at the time and my religious parents had taught me that it was a sin. Then we talked it over, he explained to me why he looked at it, and I decided that while it was gross he could watch it all he wants. Fast forward seven years, we're married and we love porn! He watches porn alone, I watch porn alone, and we watch porn together. Sometimes we get off on checking the other person's porn history and we enjoy finding stuff that the other one will like and saving it for them. Most my girl friends are still threatened by porn, but I'm slowly wearing them down and forwarding them articles like this one. So once again, thanks Dan!
61-absolutely! I assumed the reason co-workers were mentioned at all is because sometimes we find out more than we'd like to know about co-workers' sex habits, and let's just say that doesn't encourage an atmosphere of trust and respect in the workplace. I didn't need to know, for example, that one of my supervisors enjoys going to get lap dances on a regular basis. I trusted him less, and was suspicious of his motives towards me, since he was willing to let me know this info. It was indeed an "unsettling reality", not because of the lap dances, but because I don't want that nonsense intruding into my work life.
@52: I don't know how to do fancy quotes here, but I was responding to your comment that "There's some guys I know -- I wouldn't give a shit what kind of porn they view because they've already shown they're basic, decent human beings. There's other guys -- the porn combined with their general behavior, my reaction is Get the Fuck Out of Dodge, Now."

I was just wondering if there are really cases where you're borderline with them and their taste in porn is the deciding factor. Genuinely curious.
40: Your arguments are even more horrifying. You're essentially saying that the only kind of porn your partner can consume are ones where the subjects look exactly like you and do the exact things in bed that you do. Thinking that you're "competing" with the porn is no different from thinking that porn is cheating.
63, irongal, what you're saying actually sounds like the message the original author of the article is trying to communicate. You were pissed after finding your boyfriend's porn, right? But the solution wasn't just for you to magically get over it, or be "dumped" like some people here are suggesting--rather, you reacted based on your limited knowledge of what porn was all about. And then, as you say, you "talked it over", and that made everything better. The original author here is asking for men to do that, though--to disclose and discuss, and not hide and lie just because women might get angry when they discover these truths. Many here--including Dan--seem to think it's the angry women who bear ALL responsibility for this problem. Why are they angry, though? Does anyone bother to investigate that, or is it just the inherently shitty nature of women?
Welp, Dan, you don't have to be gay to be intelligent. Obviously, you don't have to be intelligent to be a journalist.
@67: You missed Dan's point as well as that of most people here. The original article asserted that a female's angry reaction to porn is normal, expected, proper, and should not change. Worse, it said that it's "not a women's job to ratchet down their anger." Which is exactly what @63 did -- she ratcheted down her anger and came to understand the context.

Nobody said angry women bear "ALL" responsibility. The original article said they bear NONE, and that's what Dan was objecting to.
Occasionally, though rarely, I'll have a "dude night" with some close friends. Maybe somebody is leaving town. Getting married. Or had a kid. A milestone of some sort. It's inevitable that one of the dudes will want to go to a strip club. Not my favorite thing by any stretch. Especially in this state where a grown-up man can't get a goddamn bourbon in a booby bar. But I digress.

The thing is: these guys all have to fucking lie to their wives and girlfriends. There is always this point in the evening where they have to synchronize their stories.

Except for me. I tell my wife I'm going to the booby bar. And since we, you know, actually trust each other, it's no big deal.

And ironically one of these dudes will go on some horseshit tirade about sexual objectification, parroting whatever superficial pseudo feminist knee-jerk check box his wife uses to make sure we all get on the Seattle Liberal guilt trip. And THAT guy, after unleashing himself with tequila, will always be the one who maxes out his credit card on lap dances.

My wife has even had her uptight friends call her to rat me out after they have brow beat "confessions" out of their whipped men. So she explains she doesn't care and, yes, she knew. These women go ape shit like she's a fifth columnist for the patriarchy.

We've been together twenty years. And it keeps getting better. These lie-based relationships are falling left and right. Hmmmm. Gee.

The levels of cognitive dissonance with these people is astounding.
As others mentioned, it's easy to say "Just don't date women who think this way", when in fact the problem is that a lot of women think this way, and don't necessarily identify themselves as such early on.

I'm very happy to have married a wonderful woman who isn't at all uptight about this issue.
69, no, the original article didn't say that. It wasn't very well written, I grant you, but the main point was to call for honest conversation about what men are actually doing with porn. The negative reaction of women was being explained in large part as a function of their ignorance about this very point, and I suspect the author is right about that.

The author also didn't say that an angry reaction against porn was normal and shouldn't change; rather, he was discussing why men LIE about porn, due to fear of the reaction. This reaction is coming from women who were being lied to and are now getting the real news, though. That's not the same thing as having an angry reaction to porn in general.

That's why I say it sounds a lot like 63's story, since the initial reaction was anger, and there was nothing WRONG with the fact that she was angry. She was reacting that way based on what she had learned about porn. And then, when her boyfriend discussed it, just like our author suggests, things improved.

Dan gives all these caveats about some women this and some women that, but ultimately he's thinking, "I'm so glad I'm gay." So glad his wife is a man. Which means that he is indeed blaming women for having a misunderstanding, for having the problem here. It's wonderful if a woman has received a sex-positive education that allows her NOT to be upset about porn. But that doesn't mean that other women, who do react negatively, are at fault for this. What do they know about porn? Do they use it themselves? Have they found that the men in their lives are in fact lying about it and hiding it, which makes it seem like a problem?
This article is extremely similar to a super barfy "confession" I read on some Christian relationship blog, about how when the dude confessed to his wife about viewing porn she was like: "Does he love me? Am I sexy? Our marriage only survived that night by the grace of god and even still, it's been hard. Very, very hard." And then the guy was like "I found a sponsor, it's been pretty intense, but he's there for me, and will meet me at Denny's in the middle of the night when my addiction cravings kick in." It was basically the lamest shit ever.
Ok I'm a woman and understand why women go ape shit.
Women can be very insecure.

"I got a guy woo-hoo. He''s mine, he likes me more than any other woman out there he's what?!, he looks at porn. Oh my God that means I'm not desirable to him, that I'm not his sole image of sexuality. He wants to -gasp- be with those other women rather than me! *sob* it's over he's just another sexist pig only interested in a fuck. I'll let him know that is UNACCEPTABLE. No porn, no wanking don't even think about looking at another woman because I may lose the one man I was able to catch."

Sigh. I am so glad I'm single. My last boyfriend liked porn and I didn't give a shit. Guys like to look period. Get over it.
@73 - Holy shit that's as epic as it is sad. Whatever twisted life-view the two of them pretend to share, at least the guy's got his bases covered for why he's got to leave the house in the middle of the night.
70, it's great that you and your wife can be honest about the strip club visits. But why then do you have to rant about the "horseshit tirade about sexual objectification" and "superficial pseudo feminist" reactions these "whipped" men get from their "uptight" wives? The husbands aren't being honest, right? So the failure of communication and agreement here is a two-way street, yet you've decidedly placed the blame on the women.

Do you even stop to consider for a moment that their concerns might be real--whether you agree or not, just real for them? I don't suppose it's even imaginable that sexual objectification occurs in a strip club, or that a woman might be genuinely bothered by that. Why do you assume that you and your wife are the only ones who, you know, actually trust each other, just because she's the only one who's okay with your going to the strip club? Is it possible that objections to a strip club could have less to do with lack of trust than with being bothered by strip clubs in general? Come on, I mean, you sound like you need a lot of that superficial feminist crap to help your mind.
@72: I think you are reading your own opinion (which is pretty reasonable) into the article (which is not). The article as written absolutely says that women bear no responsibility for their angry responses, and that it is not their job "to make it safe for men to get real."

That's utter horseshit. Even just with casual friends, it is all of our jobs to not be so judgmental that people are afraid to be honest with us about who they are. This is doubly true in relationships and with intimate topics like sexuality. Bottom line: it is POSITIVELY women's job to ratchet down their anger and make it possible for men to get real. Then, they can choose to leave or disapprove or whatever. But intimidating guys into hiding porn and then attacking them for doing so is not a defensible or healthy standard for female behavior.
74, after you explain why some women might feel insecure, why is your reaction just "get over it"? Because YOU were easily able to get over it? It doesn't bother me either, but I can easily see why it genuinely bothers some people (the same could be true for a same-sex couples, or for men who are insecure about a woman's interest in porn). Maybe it's not about desperation to "catch" the only possible man, like you say. Maybe these women were never raised to be comfortable with their own sexuality, and have had little experience with porn. Maybe they've been cheated on, and lied to, and they're having a hard enough time establishing trust. I just don't see why any negative reaction to porn is considered so unacceptable, so worthy of being dumped over, or something the woman and the woman alone needs to suck up and deal with.
Ugh, it's really depressing how shitty Jezebel has become. SFOgirl@23 nails it. I stopped reading shortly after they had a dude guest post about how consent is a dumb American concept and French girls love being sexually harassed.
@78: Nobody said that "any negative reaction to porn is considered so unacceptable." People are saying that 1) guys watch porn, 2) women need to realize this, and 3) if a woman freaks out over this inevitability and is not interested in ratcheting down anger and communicating, then the guy has two choices: lie to her or dump her.
Hey, everybody this thread is The Suzy Show!

Make sure you post at least fifty more times, Suzy. And get more sanctimonious, please. It's really helping. We're not quite sure what your point of view is yet.
I think that even THINKING about sex, even for a moment, even so much as thinking "that woman crossing the street is attractive" is the same thing as raping a child. A hundred children -- ALL the children. Raping and killing them with your penis -- oh, CRAP, I just thought about the word "penis". I should be executed.
@80 How do women realize it when men are lying about their consumption?
Not that I disagree, Dan, but aren't you supposed to be on vacation? Just sayin'....
I'm much more interested in sex than my husband is. I'm much more interested in porn than my husband is. All women are not alike. All men are not alike. Geeze. You'd think people would have learned that by now.
@78: All cards need to go on the table before a marriage or long-term relationship. A hyper-insecure woman (or man) needs to let their partner know how insecure/jealous they are. A connoisseur of porn needs to let the other half know. And If partner 1 has to be partner 2's be-all, end-all, only...then partner 2 damn well better be informed that wanking to porn or checking out some hot young thing on the street is a dealbreaker.
@62 Thanks for sharing that story. There's a lot of people in here talking about how women are anti-sex and insecure and that's why they hate men using porn, but the thing is most people are anti-sex and insecure and shamed about their own and others sexuality.
Hetero men play a lot of lipservice to women who are confident in their sexuality, but when it's authentic and not simply sexualized for their enjoyment, most men bail the fuck out and resort to slut shaming. What can we do to change those people except be our honest, authentic selves?
@66 I can't be a bit insecure, eh? Especially if the guy in question goes to some lengths to hide it? It really isn't this cut and dried, you know, as much as you'd like to paint women as being COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY AND ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT REASON in any of this...

I did try to convey my thoughts on this in some detail to try and give some idea of what's going on in at least some cases. Pity you coudln't be bothered to try and imagine women as actual human beings, not as some kind of bags of inexplicable and annoying emotions.
And I know men are not immune to this. There's a hilarious sequence in one of Dan's books where he describes his own porn stash as being pretty much full of HICBIA lookalikes --- and then after viewing HICBIA's, stopped doing so b/c it was shredding his self esteem...
Everything about this confuses me.
45 gets it right - men letting women believe they don't watch porn is equivalent to women faking orgasms. Damaging to the relationship, and damaging to every relationship both people have afterwards.

@56, 71 – cultural change is hard but necessary. If every guy shows his gf news stories (science!) about how all men use porn, and has a discussion with her, then more and more women will understand that fact.
@83 it's the "chick" and the egg. See what I did there.

Maybe, just maybe, men wouldn't lie about it if their sexuality wasn't constantly demonized. Start by assuming porn and strippers-or whatever-aren't degrading to all women by default. Don't internalize his sexual desires.

I'll try to explain. Starting with the "objectification" argument against porn. Could there be a weaker more diminished argument? It's one of the terrible sounding terms people just reflexively throw out there to use as some sort of nuance killing rhetorical cudgel with out the slightest idea what it really means. Somebody said it once. It's abd thing. So I'm gonna bash you with it!

Seriously. Look. We "objectify" humans beings daily as a way of abbreviating our human interactions. We don't always have time to "know" the person-hood of our server at a restaurant. They are, for the purpose of that interaction, the food conveyance object. We do this all day long. With thousands of people through out our lives.

And this not a problem. Until sex is involved. Because in our puritanical duplicitous society sexual interactions are some special case. Ridiculously over-romanticized at best, criminalized at worst.

The only ethical consideration in these interaction should be: is this person being exploited by me? Or am I contributing to this persons exploitation and to what degree. Objectification only matters if a person is being exploited.

Porn actors and strippers are not ALWAYS being exploited by the our consuming what they sell. Sometimes. But not all the time.

I wonder how many people get all bent out of shape over their hubby looking at porn get as worked up over his buying a new iPad - made by exploited workers with strategic mineral resources harvested from exploited colonized developing nations. Yeah. One set of objects don't seem to factor that much.

Oh. But they say we then reduce ALL women to these sexual objects when we reduce the stripper to a sexual object? Do we reduce everybody to a food conveyance object? Pah-lease.

Is ones view of humanity—men specifically— so god damned stunted that we cant actually believe we can apply context to our interactions and fantasy lives?

Sexual fantasies are not that much materially different that any other sort of fantasy. Nobody gets worked up that their husbands go to see Lord of Rings where he is essentially asked to fantasize about killing Orcs.

It's doubtful your boyfriend will ever feel the need to lie about going to see Lord of the Rings or playing Call of Duty. Even though there he is fantasizing about relentlessly murdering people. And elves. How can you live with that psycho?

(And for god's sake don't give me this horseshit about the sex drive and the primal activation of the limbic system making sex special or what ever scientific factoid somebody retrofit into a doctorate thesis once. Our violent fantasies activate these same primal systems. Hell. To a degree so do our fantasies about food. We don't know enough about neural science to make any claims about what viewing porn or anything else does.)

Look. The issue is honesty and trust. Do these women think ANY sexualized fantasy interaction their S.O. has constitutes as cheating? Well. Then guess what? S.O. is gonna fucking lie. Because he IS going to have sexual fantasies. Are they worried that a stripper might touch hubby's winkle? Are they worries that hubby might develop some sort of unrealistic projected body issues?

If the women involved drop the fucking judgement and talk to their S.O.s they may find that there is nothing to worry about at all.

And BTW for the Suzy's out there - broad-stroke feminism is a fine political philosophy but like anything context is everything. You will find rigid didactic notions don't scale well to interpersonal relationships.

But hey. You want try to govern your relationship by something written by Andrea Dworkin 30 years ago? Good luck. All these failing relationships and people wonder why.

88: You can be as insecure as you want it to be, but you cannot punish other people for your own flaws. Our sex lives begin well before we ever have sexual partners, and thinking that your partner's fantasies or desires are a reflection on you or your relationship is incredibly narcissistic.

As for the implication that I need to adjust the way I think about women, I'm fairly confident that I treat myself as a human being and not as a bag of "inexplicable and annoying emotions." How nice of you to assume that someone who disagrees with you must be a man.
Am I supposed to care about the kind of porn that random guys are watching, because the last thing in the world I want to know is what my boss yanks it to. I've met women who get jealous if their man watches porn or goes to a strip club - those bitches are crazy.
@93 be that as it may, you are basically not allowing me one inch to have my own feelings about this, even after I go some way to try and show why I feel the way I do, so... given that you won't give me the time of day on that... then what? Have I been calling for the execution of men who watch porn? Have I been pressing for the censorship & elimination of porn? Have I said you have to change your views? None of that. I've been trying to show where I come from. If you don't wanna acknowledge that *at all*, if you don't wanna figure that I have some right to my own views on this -- it's your prerogative, but it then becomes pretty unlikely I'd ever sleep with you, let alone get friendly with you.

And since I'm bisexual, it *really* doesn't matter whether you're a man or a women, sweetie.
I (female person) am looking at Victorian porno pictures while IMing with my ex-lover who's at his office. Just saying.
@ Suzy i just wanted to thank you for rationally voicing how some of us women do feel. i think it's great that there are so many self confident women out there who do not have issues with this. i really wish that i could be one of them. Unfortunately, i have been cheated on & lied to far too many times. As well as having alot of sexual trauma in my life. As a result, i am deeply insecure. Although most of my lovers have watched porn a-plenty while we were together, i never flipped out about it. i have gone to strip clubs with many of them. Feeling the whole time that i was ugly & worthless compared to the dancers. Yet, i held my deep feelings of insecurity & betrayal inside. My view of male sexuality has become so jaded that i have lost all interest in sex or having an intimate relationship with a man. Which is for the best. While i recognize that my sexual reality is unhealthy, it is real for myself & many other women that i know. So, thank you for giving voice.
(The funniest thing about all this is that I don't go ballistic over men watching porn... I don't get furious or whatever about it. But I did express what goes thru my mind about it -- and I get raked thru the coals anyway. So.... something to keep in mind about this general subject, and why women might be a bit touchy on this subject, regardless of what, precisely, they think of it...)
@98: Well, I am a little confused about what goes through your mind about it. And your original post comes across as somewhat sex- and porn- negative. What kind of porn would you judge a guy for? So what if the porn he likes isn't stuff that turns you on?
@92 The chick and the egg? Is the egg a patriarchal social system set up around male dominance and the commodification of female bodies that is also built on a puritanical foundation that demonizes healthy sex? Then the answer is the latter.

And no, I do not dehumanize my server. They are a human being, not a food serving robot fulfilling my gluttony. And I don't think you understand the meaning of objectification.

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